Woody's Mailbag

[TXBRONC]

Woody's Mailbag
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/15/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

After watching MNF, why is Kyle Orton the starter? He looked horrible all game. Tim Tebow was at least competitive against Oakland last season. What does the brain trust see in Orton that is not evident to the rest of us?

...If you start Tebow, you find out this year what he really is. If he and they are terrible, draft a quarterback. If he's good, you bring in a veteran quarterback, or even go draft another quarterback.

http://www.denverpost.com/woodysmailbag/ci_18897278

I think a lot people here have said something very similar. If you all have the time you ought to check out the rest of his Mailbag.

[vandammage13]

Orton is another Steve DeBerg. DeBerg was an average quarterback. What the brain trust sees in Orton is that the brain trust doesn't like Quinn or Tebow.

Wow...I said Orton was DeBerg yesterday...Woody must be viewing our board and stole my comparison. Oh well, I won't lambast him for plagiarism.

Good article though, I pretty much agreed with the whole thing.

[SOCALORADO.]

Woody's Mailbag
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/15/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

After watching MNF, why is Kyle Orton the starter? He looked horrible all game. Tim Tebow was at least competitive against Oakland last season. What does the brain trust see in Orton that is not evident to the rest of us?

...If you start Tebow, you find out this year what he really is. If he and they are terrible, draft a quarterback. If he's good, you bring in a veteran quarterback, or even go draft another quarterback.

http://www.denverpost.com/woodysmailbag/ci_18897278

I think a lot people here have said something very similar. If you all have the time you ought to check out the rest of his Mailbag.

Great read! I think we all can agree with Woody on the Orton/Tebow issue.
And 1 thing is for sure, at seasons end, we will all have a real good idea of where DEN is heading at the QB position.
The McDooDoohead stuff is hillarious!

And woody is wrong about the Claymaker...........he can run the football.

[SOCALORADO.]

Wow...I said Orton was DeBerg yesterday...Woody must be viewing our board and stole my comparison. Oh well, I won't lambast him for plagiarism.

Good article though, I pretty much agreed with the whole thing.

Saw that! I immediately remembered your post!LOL!
:lol:

[claymore]

Wow...I said Orton was DeBerg yesterday...Woody must be viewing our board and stole my comparison. Oh well, I won't lambast him for plagiarism.

Good article though, I pretty much agreed with the whole thing.

I think this has been echoed a few times as well. "What the brain trust sees in Orton is that the brain trust doesn't like Quinn or Tebow."

All of our QBs suck.

[Mike]

I think this has been echoed a few times as well. "What the brain trust sees in Orton is that the brain trust doesn't like Quinn or Tebow."

All of our QBs suck.

I would almost be ready to bring fricking Brian Griese out of the press box and suit him up than to see that bum start another game.

I don't care if it is Quinn or Tebow. If the team continues to suck, so be it. Draft a young stud next year. I have seen enough of that bum.

[claymore]

I would almost be ready to bring fricking Brian Griese out of the press box and suit him up than to see that bum start another game.

I don't care if it is Quinn or Tebow. If the team continues to suck, so be it. Draft a young stud next year. I have seen enough of that bum.

Yeah, Orotn sucks. If the braintrust has already determined that Tebow is a sack of shit, then why hurt his trade value take a hit by starting him?

Trade him to Miami or something.

[SOCALORADO.]

I think this has been echoed a few times as well. "What the brain trust sees in Orton is that the brain trust doesn't like Quinn or Tebow."

All of our QBs suck.

And it isnt even so much my opinion or another posters opinion, it seems to be the front office's opinion and the head coaches opinion of TT.
Thats why i believe that John Elway has a plan that he enacted immediately after taking the job of VP, and after he overviewed the entire organization.
Elway, Bowlen want the centerpiece to the organization like they did in 83 to start the rebuild, and they will stop at nothing to accomplish this. Which is why the team operates and conducts itself in regards to the QB position the way they do. Its just my opinion on the matter, and i am not one to question John Elway if its indeed true.

[Mike]

Yeah, Orotn sucks. If the braintrust has already determined that Tebow is a sack of shit, then why hurt his trade value take a hit by starting him?

Trade him to Miami or something.

If Tebow can't beat that bum and that bum ain't worth trading a bag of beans for, do you think Tebow really has any trade value?

Besides, Henne didn't look so shabby Monday. I seriously doubt they want that bum or Tebow.

No team will want any of our steaming pile of QBs. They should charge us to take them off our hands.

[Dreadnought]

Wow...I said Orton was DeBerg yesterday...Woody must be viewing our board and stole my comparison. Oh well, I won't lambast him for plagiarism.

Good article though, I pretty much agreed with the whole thing.

DeBerg > Orton, and by a wide margin. Orton could only dream of being as good as Steve DeBerg.

[Dirk]

Good stuff by Woody.

[BroncoNut]

DeBerg > Orton, and by a wide margin. Orton could only dream of being as good as Steve DeBerg.

Never heard of Steve DeBerg? Was he a military general in some war 20,000 years ago or something?

[TXBRONC]

I think this has been echoed a few times as well. "What the brain trust sees in Orton is that the brain trust doesn't like Quinn or Tebow."

All of our QBs suck.


Woody's Mailbag
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/15/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

The Broncos like Orton's work ethic, and they like his leadership. But they don't really like him.

http://www.denverpost.com/woodysmailbag/ci_18897278

We haven't seen enough of Tebow for me to say that he sucks imho.

[chazoe60]

The long term franchise QB of the Denver Broncos is in some ethics class right now being fed bull shit by some granola eating plagarist....

[TXBRONC]

Wow...I said Orton was DeBerg yesterday...Woody must be viewing our board and stole my comparison. Oh well, I won't lambast him for plagiarism.

Good article though, I pretty much agreed with the whole thing.

I said that months ago. :D

[BroncoNut]

I said that months ago. :D

and like now, your post is ignored

[SOCALORADO.]

The long term franchise QB of the Denver Broncos is in some ethics class right now being fed bull shit by some granola eating plagarist....

Actually its architectural design, which is a really difficult major in the engineering dept.
But yeah, the teacher is a granola eating, fairy plagarist.

[TXBRONC]

and like now, your post is ignored

Bastage. :tsk:

[BroncoNut]

Bastage. :tsk:

did you post something?

[Ravage!!!]

It might be because if we start him, we lose any chance of trading him.

[arapaho2]

i think the notion that the office thinks tebow sucks and not the future or in fact best option this year is stupid


if you, as a new head coach, vice president , and GM dont think your 2nd yr qb that ended the season as the starter has the potential to start


you dont try to trade orton!!!

i think its a case of bullheadedness, ego...and cheapness ...efx was perfectly willing to trade orton and roll the dice with tebow....they tried and failed to trade orton and are stuck with his 9 mill salary...compounded by tebows escalation of salary if he starts

fox wants to prove he can win and turn this team around....he believes orton is a safe and stable qb and gives him the best shot at winning a few game

i can get all the reasons why tebow isnt starting, real or imagined

however what i cant get is the total disconnect of the entire picture

we are the people that the income from the team is derived from....its not, speaking for myself the fact i think tebow will be better than orton, i do

its the fact efx seems to ignore the big picture which i, as well as a multitude of fans have said...were not going to the superbowl this year, we know that, understand that and can accept that...to improve the team in the long run
starting orton does nothing for the long run improvment...it shows us nothing other than fox may win a few games with him before he's gone

starting tebow us many things, besides showing his potential to be or not be a nfl qb

i just cant see why efx doesnt get the fact most of us would rather watch tebow struggle with his mechanics, inexpirience and youth and win 6 games

than watch another year of ortons horrible play and win 7 games

[JaxBroncoGirl]

i think the notion that the office thinks tebow sucks and not the future or in fact best option this year is stupid


if you, as a new head coach, vice president , and GM dont think your 2nd yr qb that ended the season as the starter has the potential to start


you dont try to trade orton!!!

i think its a case of bullheadedness, ego...and cheapness ...efx was perfectly willing to trade orton and roll the dice with tebow....they tried and failed to trade orton and are stuck with his 9 mill salary...compounded by tebows escalation of salary if he starts

fox wants to prove he can win and turn this team around....he believes orton is a safe and stable qb and gives him the best shot at winning a few game

i can get all the reasons why tebow isnt starting, real or imagined

however what i cant get is the total disconnect of the entire picture

we are the people that the income from the team is derived from....its not, speaking for myself the fact i think tebow will be better than orton, i do

its the fact efx seems to ignore the big picture which i, as well as a multitude of fans have said...were not going to the superbowl this year, we know that, understand that and can accept that...to improve the team in the long run
starting orton does nothing for the long run improvment...it shows us nothing other than fox may win a few games with him before he's gone

starting tebow us many things, besides showing his potential to be or not be a nfl qb

i just cant see why efx doesnt get the fact most of us would rather watch tebow struggle with his mechanics, inexpirience and youth and win 6 games

than watch another year of ortons horrible play and win 7 games

That is exactly what the Jaguars did. They cut David Garrard because he was owed 9 mil this year. The Jaguars realized that McCown brings the same skills that Garrard had but at half the cost. Jaguars are going to play McCown long enough to put in Blaine Gabbert which is very, very raw. But the team felt why keep Garrard when we are going to groom Gabbert to be the QB. Why keep a QB that you already know is not going to be your QB in the future, why prolong it? Why keep doing what you have always done if you are suffering the outcome?

[BigSarge87]

i think the notion that the office thinks tebow sucks and not the future or in fact best option this year is stupid


if you, as a new head coach, vice president , and GM dont think your 2nd yr qb that ended the season as the starter has the potential to start


you dont try to trade orton!!!

i think its a case of bullheadedness, ego...and cheapness ...efx was perfectly willing to trade orton and roll the dice with tebow....they tried and failed to trade orton and are stuck with his 9 mill salary...compounded by tebows escalation of salary if he starts

fox wants to prove he can win and turn this team around....he believes orton is a safe and stable qb and gives him the best shot at winning a few game

i can get all the reasons why tebow isnt starting, real or imagined

however what i cant get is the total disconnect of the entire picture

we are the people that the income from the team is derived from....its not, speaking for myself the fact i think tebow will be better than orton, i do

its the fact efx seems to ignore the big picture which i, as well as a multitude of fans have said...were not going to the superbowl this year, we know that, understand that and can accept that...to improve the team in the long run
starting orton does nothing for the long run improvment...it shows us nothing other than fox may win a few games with him before he's gone

starting tebow us many things, besides showing his potential to be or not be a nfl qb

i just cant see why efx doesnt get the fact most of us would rather watch tebow struggle with his mechanics, inexpirience and youth and win 6 games

than watch another year of ortons horrible play and win 7 games

That's exactly it. I just don't get why they don't let him play. It's the only way to make the best of a bad situation.

It's as simple as that. If Tebow plays and does well, we draft badly needed linemen. If he doesn't, we win 2-3 games and draft a QB (and then some linemen).

Why is that so hard to understand? Every game Orton plays is a complete waste of time.

[claymore]

We haven't seen enough of Tebow for me to say that he sucks imho.

We dont need to. I have a hard time believing Orton would be our starter if he was the 2nd or third best QB on our roster.

As bad as Orton is, Fox thinks he is better than Tebow and Quin.

That to says tons about the organizations feelings on Tebow/Quin. To me at least.

[BroncoNut]

Never heard of Steve DeBerg? Was he a military general in some war 20,000 years ago or something?

sorry dread, that was pretty snotty.

[claymore]

It might be because if we start him, we lose any chance of trading him.

If the organization already knows that they dont want Tebo, they have zero to gain from starting him.

[BigSarge87]

I still wonder if all of this, the not letting Tebow play, the not signing good free agents, all of it comes down to Bowlen being broke.

I don't know a lot about how the money part works, but doesn't Tebow get a huge bonus if he plays 55% of the snaps or something like that?

Maybe all this comes down to money. If that's the case, this organization will be fubar'd for a very long time.

[BigSarge87]

We dont need to. I have a hard time believing Orton would be our starter if he was the 2nd or third best QB on our roster.

As bad as Orton is, Fox thinks he is better than Tebow and Quin.

That to says tons about the organizations feelings on Tebow/Quin. To me at least.

Well they sure don't look interesting in giving Tebow opportunities to shorten the gaps either, do they?

[TXBRONC]

did you post something?

I guess not.

[Dirk]

I'm not sure if this was posted already but this article pretty much hits the nail on the head IMO.


With six minutes left in Monday night's loss to Oakland, disgruntled Denver fans started calling for a new quarterback, but it wasn't backup Brady Quinn they wanted. It was Tim Tebow.


The rest of the article is quite good.


Rest is here: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/15575063/memo-to-broncos-fans-give-tebow-time-to-develop

[claymore]

I still wonder if all of this, the not letting Tebow play, the not signing good free agents, all of it comes down to Bowlen being broke.

I don't know a lot about how the money part works, but doesn't Tebow get a huge bonus if he plays 55% of the snaps or something like that?

Maybe all this comes down to money. If that's the case, this organization will be fubar'd for a very long time.He makes 1.6 mill in base salary this year. Double that and he makes 3.2 million.

Bowlen would easily have recovered that by releasing Orton, or new revenues from our 3rd string QB starting.


Well they sure don't look interesting in giving Tebow opportunities to shorten the gaps either, do they?

He gets them every day in practice. Why should he get some special shot that no other position gets? The #1's need time practicing with the #1's. Taking days out to give Tebow special time he didnt earn just hurts the team.

[Mike]

Taking days out to give Tebow special time he didnt earn just hurts the team.

Because apparently getting all the snaps for the bum really helps the team. :laugh:

[Ravage!!!]

ESPN had a good point last night on the radio, and the host (who played college basketball) said this.

"I know how it is in college basketball. I know when things were getting out of hand, if/when the fans started calling for the young kid at the end of the bench..... the young kid at the end of the bench wouldn't get played. The coach certainly isn't going to make it look as though he caved into the fans, and played him because the fans were chanting. You have to wonder if the same situation isn't happening in Denver. You think Fox is going to put Tebow in because the fans are chanting for him, or do you suppose Fox is more likely to not play him because the fans are chanting for him?"

Its a good point and one many of us here have said. Those doing the loudest cries and chants for Tebow are doing him the most disservice. Not only is the media more critical on him because of all the Tebownites raising him up onto the plateau.. not only are people tired of hearing Tebow's name because so many are talking about the 3rd QB on the depth chart...but its most probable that the coach is tired of being asked about him and isn't going to start him ANY sooner than he absolutely has to BECAUSE of teh chants and questions.

Hell, even McDoosh got tired of being asked about him, and he spent 4 draft picks to get him!

So for those of you that want Tebow in the game.... don't chant for him! Thats only going to keep Orton in longer, and put Quinn higher on the priority list.

[BigSarge87]

He makes 1.6 mill in base salary this year. Double that and he makes 3.2 million.

Bowlen would easily have recovered that by releasing Orton, or new revenues from our 3rd string QB starting.



He gets them every day in practice. Why should he get some special shot that no other position gets? The #1's need time practicing with the #1's. Taking days out to give Tebow special time he didnt earn just hurts the team.

He needs to get game reps. Practice would be a lot more effective if they had game tape on him to look at and work on mistakes he made in meaningful games.

Okay, fine, lets just stay in the rut of mediocrity with our heads down because it's been working great for years now.

I'm trying man, I just can't see why we are sticking with Orton. Tebow can't be so bad that he's not worth the risk to see what he can do.

[Northman]

If Tebow can't beat that bum and that bum ain't worth trading a bag of beans for, do you think Tebow really has any trade value?

Besides, Henne didn't look so shabby Monday. I seriously doubt they want that bum or Tebow.

No team will want any of our steaming pile of QBs. They should charge us to take them off our hands.

Exactly. The rest of the league is looking at us and if we dont think Tebow is worth a grain of salt no one else will. Its silly to think that he will have any trade value without seeing if he can even play. :lol:

[arapaho2]

He makes 1.6 mill in base salary this year. Double that and he makes 3.2 million.

Bowlen would easily have recovered that by releasing Orton, or new revenues from our 3rd string QB starting.



He gets them every day in practice. Why should he get some special shot that no other position gets? The #1's need time practicing with the #1's. Taking days out to give Tebow special time he didnt earn just hurts the team.


ortons entire salary is garanteed...we pay full price regardless of whether we sit him, play him or cut him...the only way out was a trade and him restructuring

[Northman]

starting tebow us many things, besides showing his potential to be or not be a nfl qb

i just cant see why efx doesnt get the fact most of us would rather watch tebow struggle with his mechanics, inexpirience and youth and win 6 games

than watch another year of ortons horrible play and win 7 games

This also, its easy to deal with losses when starting a young QB rather than a vet who really has no clue.

[Ravage!!!]

Exactly. The rest of the league is looking at us and if we dont think Tebow is worth a grain of salt no one else will. Its silly to think that he will have any trade value without seeing if he can even play. :lol:

What do you mean? Most of what people here are clamoring about is the three games from last season. If thats all they ahve to see, and the pre-season games against the nobodies.... he may have his HIGHEST value right now. His name alone could garner interest.

We've seen all over the NFL how teams trade for players, or sign players, based purely on their name/potential. There is no reason to believe a name as popular as Tebow wouldn't gain interest. GMs are always figuring they can "change the atmosphere" and resurrect a playe. "Things will be different here."

Its very possible that Tebow's trade value is perceived to be at its very HIGHEST right now, since not much has been seen. The last images of Tebow are the positive ones. No better way to trade a player than to keep his best performances the last to be seen, and let the imagination fill in the rest of the blanks. Dn't do something to fill in the blanks with negatives.

[TXBRONC]

ESPN had a good point last night on the radio, and the host (who played college basketball) said this.

"I know how it is in college basketball. I know when things were getting out of hand, if/when the fans started calling for the young kid at the end of the bench..... the young kid at the end of the bench wouldn't get played. The coach certainly isn't going to make it look as though he caved into the fans, and played him because the fans were chanting. You have to wonder if the same situation isn't happening in Denver. You think Fox is going to put Tebow in because the fans are chanting for him, or do you suppose Fox is more likely to not play him because the fans are chanting for him?"

Its a good point and one many of us here have said. Those doing the loudest cries and chants for Tebow are doing him the most disservice. Not only is the media more critical on him because of all the Tebownites raising him up onto the plateau.. not only are people tired of hearing Tebow's name because so many are talking about the 3rd QB on the depth chart...but its most probable that the coach is tired of being asked about him and isn't going to start him ANY sooner than he absolutely has to BECAUSE of teh chants and questions.

Hell, even McDoosh got tired of being asked about him, and he spent 4 draft picks to get him!

So for those of you that want Tebow in the game.... don't chant for him! Thats only going to keep Orton in longer, and put Quinn higher on the priority list.


He needs to get game reps. Practice would be a lot more effective if they had game tape on him to look at and work on mistakes he made in meaningful games.

Okay, fine, lets just stay in the rut of mediocrity with our heads down because it's been working great for years now.

I'm trying man, I just can't see why we are sticking with Orton. Tebow can't be so bad that he's not worth the risk to see what he can do.


Orton is going get play for awhile and there is nothing we can do about. If we struggling going into the bi-week it wouldn't surprise me if we see change shortly after that.

[BigSarge87]

I guess it's possible the team could win the next couple games and start coming together. If Orton comes in and plays well, scores some freakin points in the RZ, and gets the team going, and shows that they could possibly make a playoff run, then keep him in.

But I think we all know that's not likely to happen.

[Ravage!!!]

Orton is going get play for awhile and there is nothing we can do about. If we struggling going into the bi-week it wouldn't surprise me if we see change shortly after that.

I was thinking this too, but I'm not so sure its going to happen that soon. I'm guessing closer to the last 4 games of the year if it happens at all (or injury which is pretty likely with Orton).

[Northman]

What do you mean? Most of what people here are clamoring about is the three games from last season. If thats all they ahve to see, and the pre-season games against the nobodies.... he may have his HIGHEST value right now. His name alone could garner interest.

We've seen all over the NFL how teams trade for players, or sign players, based purely on their name/potential. There is no reason to believe a name as popular as Tebow wouldn't gain interest. GMs are always figuring they can "change the atmosphere" and resurrect a playe. "Things will be different here."

Its very possible that Tebow's trade value is perceived to be at its very HIGHEST right now, since not much has been seen. The last images of Tebow are the positive ones. No better way to trade a player than to keep his best performances the last to be seen, and let the imagination fill in the rest of the blanks. Dn't do something to fill in the blanks with negatives.


But you just said he sucked? So which is it? Was he good or did he suck? You guys keep flip flopping.

[Northman]

Fact is, Paige is saying what ive been saying all along. Play Tebow now, see what he has. If he bombs, then you draft a QB in the first round next year. If he succeeds, sign a veteran to back him up as he continues to learn and spend draft picks on other needs.

[BigSarge87]

Orton is going get play for awhile and there is nothing we can do about. If we struggling going into the bi-week it wouldn't surprise me if we see change shortly after that.

Yep, that's probably what's going to happen. I just think it's really predictable.

Orton is going to come around and have a few decent games. Maybe even throw some TD's but the team is going to lose more than they win and we'll be stuck in this situation all year.

[Mike]

Fact is, Paige is saying what ive been saying all along. Play Tebow now, see what he has. If he bombs, then you draft a QB in the first round next year. If he succeeds, sign a veteran to back him up as he continues to learn and spend draft picks on other needs.

And you shut the fans up either way...which at this point might be worth it.

[BigSarge87]

But you just said he sucked? So which is it? Was he good or did he suck? You guys keep flip flopping.

You can't keep using words like 'suck' and use Bryci as your avy. No one can concentrate.

[Ravage!!!]

But you just said he sucked? So which is it? Was he good or did he suck? You guys keep flip flopping.

No, I didn't flip at all. Don't try to make this more difficult than it is purely because you want to defend the Tebow against the "idea."

I'm saying that those that break down the game tape have said that Tebow has a "long long ways to go." Thats not exactly saying he "sucks"..its saying he's a project. Tebow has a name, and as we've seen in the NFL, names will get you teams to go to, no matter how you looked with the prior team. He DID make some plays with his feet, and did have some positive things happen for him during those last three games.

If we are in a position to draft high and take one of the top 3 QBs in the draft, no one would think it a bad decision on our part to take a chance on a top talent. Tebow would still have trade value because although he's raw, he still has a name.

its possible (like I said, its a possible theory... not a guaranteed one) that those in Denver don't want to to lower his value down by showing just HOW raw he truly is. I know you guys don't like Hoge (even though it wasn't quoted around here how he absolutely RAVED about Von Miller)... the fact is that he is pretty damned good about breakind down game-film. So is Ron Jawarski... so is Teddy Bruschi. Those are just a few of the names that have commented on just HOW far Tebow has to go to be a starter.

So he's raw. GMs take chances on players that didn't make it elsewhere all the time. There is NO reason to believe that Tebow wouldn't ahve some trade value based purely on his name, and his "potential" alone. Put him on the field, and that could lower the value purely because it gives more evidence against him.

[TXBRONC]

I guess it's possible the team could win the next couple games and start coming together. If Orton comes in and plays well, scores some freakin points in the RZ, and gets the team going, and shows that they could possibly make a playoff run, then keep him in.

But I think we all know that's not likely to happen.


I agree it's not likely to happen but we still have to wait and see how plays out. If we get spanked by Green Bay and San Diego before the bi-week it wouldn't surprise me to see Orton on the bench the following week.

[Northman]

And you shut the fans up either way...which at this point might be worth it.

Exactly.

If he bombs then the Tebownites go away. If he succeeds than we shut up the naysayers who said he could never do it. One way or the other its a win/win for me.

[BigSarge87]

Or it could raise his value when certain coordinators realize that he would fit their system a lot better than the one they have in Denver.

Maybe they realize his 'potential' is a lot higher than what has been advertised.

It's a risk either way, but like Mike said, the only way to completely resolve the Tebow issue is to let him play.

[TXBRONC]

I was thinking this too, but I'm not so sure its going to happen that soon. I'm guessing closer to the last 4 games of the year if it happens at all (or injury which is pretty likely with Orton).

If Orton is continues to play the way he did Monday night I have hard time seeing him making it 12 games into the season before he would get yanked.

[Ravage!!!]

If Orton is continues to play the way he did Monday night I have hard time seeing him making it 12 games into the season before he would get yanked.

True. But as much as I find Orton to be a complete bore, I don't think he's going to play THAT poorly.

[BigSarge87]

If Orton is continues to play the way he did Monday night I have hard time seeing him making it 12 games into the season before he would get yanked.

See North, TX can use terms like 'get yanked'. But you can't. JK.

Sorry, back to topic.

[Ravage!!!]

Or it could raise his value when certain coordinators realize that he would fit their system a lot better than the one they have in Denver.

Maybe they realize his 'potential' is a lot higher than what has been advertised.

It's a risk either way, but like Mike said, the only way to completely resolve the Tebow issue is to let him play.

But its a risk that doesn't need to be taken if THEY feel that they aren't going to move forward with Tebow. Thats a possibility too. They already know that they aren't moving forward with Tim as our future, and don't want to put him on the field knowing this. If he gets injured, no trade value. If he plays poorly, lowers trade value. There is a lot more to lose by playing him.. IF.. they already feel confident he isn't their guy.

But the coaches aren't going to play him purely because it would be fun to watch. They are doing their best to win, and putting the best guy on the field to do it.

[BigSarge87]

True. But as much as I find Orton to be a complete bore, I don't think he's going to play THAT poorly.

That's the problem! He's going to play just good enough to not get fired but not good enough to get us over the hump.

What is the point?

[Mike]

If Orton is continues to play the way he did Monday night I have hard time seeing him making it 12 games into the season before he would get yanked.

If he plays poorly against Cincy at home and the Broncos lose, it will be a rough week for Fox. Going into the bye 1-4, which is a legit possiblity, should spell the end of the story...I hope.

I don't see him getting past Detroit...one way or another. :nurse:

[Northman]

No, I didn't flip at all. Don't try to make this more difficult than it is purely because you want to defend the Tebow against the "idea."

So wait a minute, do you think he can be a good Qb or not? I keep reading posts from you that he wont get it. :confused:


I'm saying that those that break down the game tape have said that Tebow has a "long long ways to go." Thats not exactly saying he "sucks"..its saying he's a project.

Indeed, something that Elway has admitted as well. Nothing has been said from the FO that they are going to toss him or trade. They even paid him his money a couple of weeks ago, AFTER seeing him practice. Face it, the guy isnt going anywhere. Especially if he is indeed a project. You dont pay money to guys who are projects unless you plan on seeing that project out.


Tebow has a name, and as we've seen in the NFL, names will get you teams to go to, no matter how you looked with the prior team. He DID make some plays with his feet, and did have some positive things happen for him during those last three games.

No team is going to take him based off his name Rav. Sorry mate, every team in the NFL is looking at the 3 ring circus we have going here. EVERY week we have media reports about the status of our QB situation. A team isnt going to want all that drama after watching what is going down in Denver. NOBODY.


If we are in a position to draft high and take one of the top 3 QBs in the draft, no one would think it a bad decision on our part to take a chance on a top talent. Tebow would still have trade value because although he's raw, he still has a name.

Your kidding yourself, highly. Nobody wants the drama of a unproven QB. NOBODY.


So he's raw. GMs take chances on players that didn't make it elsewhere all the time.

And clearly Denver is willing to wait on him. Fox wants to win now, Orton starts because of that until Elway and Fox are ready to put Tebow in. They paid him his money, they are INVESTING in Tebow. Sorry if that bursts your bubble about a QB next year but nothing has been said by the FO that they plan on trading or cutting Tebow. NOTHING.

[Ravage!!!]

That's the problem! He's going to play just good enough to not get fired but not good enough to get us over the hump.

What is the point?

The point, from the coaches perspective??? Is that he gives them the best chance to win.. NOW. Thats the point they see. The coaches and players don't want to simply "throw away" a season as an experiment. They don't play just to play, they play to win. Putting the best player on the field that gives them the BEST chance to win..... thats how Elway has stated it.

Now, I'm with you guys. I would much rather just play Tebow and have more fun watching the Broncos....but they aren't looking at it from that point of view.

[BigSarge87]

But its a risk that doesn't need to be taken if THEY feel that they aren't going to move forward with Tebow. Thats a possibility too. They already know that they aren't moving forward with Tim as our future, and don't want to put him on the field knowing this. If he gets injured, no trade value. If he plays poorly, lowers trade value. There is a lot more to lose by playing him.. IF.. they already feel confident he isn't their guy.

But the coaches aren't going to play him purely because it would be fun to watch. They are doing their best to win, and putting the best guy on the field to do it.

That makes sense. That might be exactly what's going on, actually.

If this is the case, why the eff is he still on the team? Wouldn't they have tried to shop him at TC when they came to this conclusion?

[slim]

He makes 1.6 mill in base salary this year. Double that and he makes 3.2 million.

Bowlen would easily have recovered that by releasing Orton, or new revenues from our 3rd string QB starting.



Orton's salary is guaranteed. They will pay him whether they cut him or not (I think the only way to dump his salary is via trade, which they obviously tried to do).




He gets them every day in practice. Why should he get some special shot that no other position gets? The #1's need time practicing with the #1's. Taking days out to give Tebow special time he didnt earn just hurts the team.


Because he is a young QB. The only way for a young QB to improve (especially a project like Tebow) is to give them reps. Why would you hand the kid $6M and then not try and develop him? It just makes no sense.

[Mike]

Because he is a young QB. The only way for a young QB to improve (especially a project like Tebow) is to give them reps. Why would you hand the kid $6M and then not try and develop him? It just makes no sense.

Psstt...it's because Elway doesn't want Tebow screwing up his legacy. :listen:

[Northman]

Because he is a young QB. The only way for a young QB to improve (especially a project like Tebow) is to give them reps. Why would you hand the kid $6M and then not try and develop him? It just makes no sense.

Zero sense.

[Ravage!!!]

So wait a minute, do you think he can be a good Qb or not? I keep reading posts from you that he wont get it. :confused:
I guess I'm confused. I didn't realize it mattered what I thought.



Indeed, something that Elway has admitted as well. Nothing has been said from the FO that they are going to toss him or trade. They even paid him his money a couple of weeks ago, AFTER seeing him practice. Face it, the guy isnt going anywhere. Especially if he is indeed a project. You dont pay money to guys who are projects unless you plan on seeing that project out.
Not true. The Patriots franchise tagged Cassle before trading him.


No team is going to take him based off his name Rav. Sorry mate, every team in the NFL is looking at the 3 ring circus we have going here. EVERY week we have media reports about the status of our QB situation. A team isnt going to want all that drama after watching what is going down in Denver. NOBODY.
I COMPLETELY disagree with you again. EVERY YEAR we see players get traded or taken because of their name. Who was it a few years back that Miami traded for from Philly? He was their 3rd string QB behind McNabb and someone else. He had like 2 starts, and they spent a 1st on him in trade. He didn't have NEAR the name that Tebow does.

So I'm sorry, but I think you are COMPLETELY wrong on this, and feel that Tebow does have trade value based on his name, and "potential" alone. Of course he does. It may not be TOP draft choice value, but value nonetheless.


Your kidding yourself, highly. Nobody wants the drama of a unproven QB. NOBODY.
You are being blind if you think a team isn't willing to take chances on guys that were top college producers and big names. I think you are being blind to the reality here.


And clearly Denver is willing to wait on him. Fox wants to win now, Orton starts because of that until Elway and Fox are ready to put Tebow in. They paid him his money, they are INVESTING in Tebow. Sorry if that bursts your bubble about a QB next year but nothing has been said by the FO that they plan on trading or cutting Tebow. NOTHING.

They haven't "said" anything? So what? :lol:

Why would that burst my bubble, and WHY would you think anything would be said???? :confused: You are letting your emotions take over your logical thinking here, mate.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm pretty sure the Chargers had Brees...drafted Manning (Traded for Rivers).. then franchise tagged Brees before letting him go.

So please don't tell me that it makes no sense to pay Tebow 6 million THIS year even if they plan on trading him away next. What would you think they were g oing to do with a guy that has the name of Tebow after one season, drop him???

[TXBRONC]

But its a risk that doesn't need to be taken if THEY feel that they aren't going to move forward with Tebow. Thats a possibility too. They already know that they aren't moving forward with Tim as our future, and don't want to put him on the field knowing this. If he gets injured, no trade value. If he plays poorly, lowers trade value. There is a lot more to lose by playing him.. IF.. they already feel confident he isn't their guy.

But the coaches aren't going to play him purely because it would be fun to watch. They are doing their best to win, and putting the best guy on the field to do it.

Rav what trade value? If he sits the entire season on the bench his value isn't going to increase. Most draft experts had him graded out as what 2nd round pick? We wouldn't get that for right now. With the bad press he got during camp I don't think we would get a mid round pick for him. Playing him might increase his value. I would sure like to find out if he's worth the effort.

[Northman]

Not true. The Patriots franchise tagged Cassle before trading him.

He also played in more than 3 games. :coffee:


I COMPLETELY disagree with you again. EVERY YEAR we see players get traded or taken because of their name. Who was it a few years back that Miami traded for from Philly? He was their 3rd string QB behind McNabb and someone else. He had like 2 starts, and they spent a 1st on him in trade. He didn't have NEAR the name that Tebow does.

No idea, but was he traded to be a starter? Can you get a link to that? I dont remember that at all.


So I'm sorry, but I think you are COMPLETELY wrong on this, and feel that Tebow does have trade value based on his name, and "potential" alone. Of course he does. It may not be TOP draft choice value, but value nonetheless.

Even if he did have trade value Rav, it wouldnt be happening now. Even for a guy like Kolb (who still had more than 3 starts) there was drama hanging around his neck. The Broncos have ALLOWED the issue with Tebow to boil over because of bad PR decisions. NOBODY is going to want that kind of drama.


You are being blind if you think a team isn't willing to take chances on guys that were top college producers and big names. I think you are being blind to the reality here.

Not blind, realistic. Teams will take a chance on guys who have more than 3 games under their belt. Teams will take a chance on guys who dont have a media circus that will in turn create drama in their own fanbase.

[Ravage!!!]

Rav what trade value? If he sits the entire season on the bench his value isn't going to increase. Most draft experts had him graded out as what 2nd round pick? We wouldn't get that for right now. With the bad press he got during camp I don't think we would get a mid round pick for him. Playing him might increase his value. I would sure like to find out if he's worth the effort.

I dont know...but I wouldn't be surprised if we coudl get a 2nd or third based on his name and "potential." A small market team, could see BIG value in having a guy on the team based on his jersey sales alone.

[TXBRONC]

If he plays poorly against Cincy at home and the Broncos lose, it will be a rough week for Fox. Going into the bye 1-4, which is a legit possiblity, should spell the end of the story...I hope.

I don't see him getting past Detroit...one way or another. :nurse:

Mike it could actually be worse. We play San Diego before the bi-week so we could actually end up at 1-5.

[Northman]

Right now i have a hard time saying we will win even one game.

[Mike]

Mike it could actually be worse. We play San Diego before the bi-week so we could actually end up at 1-5.

Crap, I thought we had the bye week one game earlier than we do. So 1-5...awesome. :tsk:

[Ravage!!!]

He also played in more than 3 games. :coffee:
Yeah, but they knew they were goign to trade him. So that wasn't the argument. You said no one would pay the QB they knew they were going to trade.


No idea, but was he traded to be a starter? Can you get a link to that? I dont remember that at all.
Yeha, his name is right on the tip of my tongue. I'll look him up in a minute.


Even if he did have trade value Rav, it wouldnt be happening now. Even for a guy like Kolb (who still had more than 3 starts) there was drama hanging around his neck. The Broncos have ALLOWED the issue with Tebow to boil over because of bad PR decisions. NOBODY is going to want that kind of drama.
Well, I'm not saying he has TOP 1st roudn pick trade value, but I'll disagree with you n the 'drama.' That drama, brings discussion about your team. EVERY team likes to be talked about. Tebow has value to a small market team because of his name alone (and that includes Denver). So I think you are COPMLETELY wrong if you don't think there isn't teams that would LOVE to have the "drama".. as well as taking a chance. Remember, every GM and coach feels that "things will be different once there is a change in scenery." Every team feels this way...even the stupid "patriots way" crap takes chances on players that have drama (their newest DT anyone? Moss anyone?)


Not blind, realistic. Teams will take a chance on guys who have more than 3 games under their belt. Teams will take a chance on guys who dont have a media circus that will in turn create drama in their own fanbase.

I'm still shocked you keep saying this, considering I know how much you watch the NFL.

[claymore]

In refrence to Tebow and the 6 million dollars... IMO, in the very least it is a small price for Bowlen to pay to avoid a massive amount of Drama. Especially if they dont know what to do with him yet.

Allot of Broncos fans are sick of buying jersey's and then the player is gone in 3 years. Plummer, Cutler, Marshall, J Walker, Sheffler, Hillis etc... Tebow's jersey was like the best selling all time. I see them everywhere. Hell, I even have one. :mad:

[BigSarge87]

Mike it could actually be worse. We play San Diego before the bi-week so we could actually end up at 1-5.

Who's the 1? Titans? With Chris Johnson? Hmm. Not looking good.

[Northman]

Yeah, but they knew they were goign to trade him. So that wasn't the argument. You said no one would pay the QB they knew they were going to trade.

Oh, so that was where you were going with that? The problem with that though is that when Kolb got paid initially it was because Philly was going to start him. Thus, why they traded McNabb. When Kolb went down with injury and Vick played well is when they decided to trade him. It wasnt like they signed him to a contract and then decided to trade him. Not even close in senarios buddy.


Well, I'm not saying he has TOP 1st roudn pick trade value, but I'll disagree with you n the 'drama.' That drama, brings discussion about your team. EVERY team likes to be talked about. Tebow has value to a small market team because of his name alone (and that includes Denver). So I think you are COPMLETELY wrong if you don't think there isn't teams that would LOVE to have the "drama".. as well as taking a chance. Remember, every GM and coach feels that "things will be different once there is a change in scenery." Every team feels this way...even the stupid "patriots way" crap takes chances on players that have drama (their newest DT anyone? Moss anyone?)

Moss and Haynesworth have proven something. Thats like saying Denver should go back and sign Ryan Leaf just because it will create drama. Pats take a chance on someone who they feel can contribute to the team. If Tebow hasnt proven anything no one will want that.


I'm still shocked you keep saying this, considering I know how much you watch the NFL.

Yes, i watch a lot of football. I do a lot of research too. While i may not always be right i feel pretty damn confident that 3 games isnt enough to gauge how good a QB is going to be.

The other thing that bothers me about your stance is you think or believe that Denver should trade Tebow to a team that is willing to take on the project no? But yet, Denver is rebuilding. So if thats the case with us why in the world would we trade him anyway? Why not see the project through since we are rebuilding? We wont be a contender for a couple of more years anyway.

[TXBRONC]

Crap, I thought we had the bye week one game earlier than we do. So 1-5...awesome. :tsk:

As the church lady from SNL says "Isn't that special."

[Ravage!!!]

My bad, it wasn't a first round pick, but a second round pick.

AJ Feeley was the third string QB for the Eagles behind McNabb and Koy Detmer. Played in 5 games in 2002, but didn't take a single snap in 2003, and was traded to the Dolphins in 2004 for a second round pick and was penciled in as the Dophins starting QB.

[Northman]

My bad, it wasn't a first round pick, but a second round pick.

AJ Feeley was the third string QB for the Eagles behind McNabb and Koy Detmer. Played in 5 games in 2002, but didn't take a single snap in 2003, and was traded to the Dolphins in 2004 for a second round pick and was penciled in as the Dophins starting QB.

But he did play 5 games. :D

[Ravage!!!]

Oh, so that was where you were going with that? The problem with that though is that when Kolb got paid initially it was because Philly was going to start him. Thus, why they traded McNabb. When Kolb went down with injury and Vick played well is when they decided to trade him. It wasnt like they signed him to a contract and then decided to trade him. Not even close in senarios buddy.
Well, you might want to scroll up and see who we've been talking about, since it was Cassel and not Kolb, and the NE Patriots certainly were not going to start Cassel.... buddy.


Moss and Haynesworth have proven something. Thats like saying Denver should go back and sign Ryan Leaf just because it will create drama. Pats take a chance on someone who they feel can contribute to the team. If Tebow hasnt proven anything no one will want that.
Doesn't matter. He has the name and the "potential." YOu keep bringing up the drama, and Haynesworth comes with about as much as anyone.




Yes, i watch a lot of football. I do a lot of research too. While i may not always be right i feel pretty damn confident that 3 games isnt enough to gauge how good a QB is going to be.

The other thing that bothers me about your stance is you think or believe that Denver should trade Tebow to a team that is willing to take on the project no? But yet, Denver is rebuilding. So if thats the case with us why in the world would we trade him anyway? Why not see the project through since we are rebuilding? We wont be a contender for a couple of more years anyway.

FOr one, I don't want anything. I brought forth a possible scenario.

Two... who do you suppose knows more about how "real" that potential is.... those looking in, or those that are watching him day in and day out? Just because I see something as "trash" doesn't mean someone else doesn't perceieve it as "Treasure." Why on earth would ANYONE sign anyone's cuts? I mean, that team cut them, why would anyone want them? We see it all the time.

As far as me wanting to see Tebow "Through" the process. I have NOOO problem with starting him this year. None. Zero. I want it. But I understand why the coaches and GM wouldn't simply want to throw away a season purely because the fans would find it more entertaining. I also believe guys like Schlereth when he says he's been to 10 Bronco practices, and said Tebow was just terrible. How does the coach start a guy that the entire team can see as "terrible?" So I understand why the coaches are choosing to start ORton right now. Personally, as a fan, I would enjoy Tebow. Much more fun to watch. But I'm not at practices busting my ass everyday only to watch the coaches put a guy in that isn't ready or the best to start.

[Ravage!!!]

But he did play 5 games. :D

And Tebow has three.... much fewer game to ruin the image :lol:

[TXBRONC]

And Tebow has three.... much fewer game to ruin the image :lol:

His name recognition wont be enough to boost his trade value and I don't see any team trading base on his name.

[Northman]

Well, you might want to scroll up and see who we've been talking about, since it was Cassel and not Kolb, and the NE Patriots certainly were not going to start Cassel.... buddy.


Doesn't matter. He has the name and the "potential." YOu keep bringing up the drama, and Haynesworth comes with about as much as anyone.





FOr one, I don't want anything. I brought forth a possible scenario.

Two... who do you suppose knows more about how "real" that potential is.... those looking in, or those that are watching him day in and day out? Just because I see something as "trash" doesn't mean someone else doesn't perceieve it as "Treasure." Why on earth would ANYONE sign anyone's cuts? I mean, that team cut them, why would anyone want them? We see it all the time.

As far as me wanting to see Tebow "Through" the process. I have NOOO problem with starting him this year. None. Zero. I want it. But I understand why the coaches and GM wouldn't simply want to throw away a season purely because the fans would find it more entertaining. I also believe guys like Schlereth when he says he's been to 10 Bronco practices, and said Tebow was just terrible. How does the coach start a guy that the entire team can see as "terrible?" So I understand why the coaches are choosing to start ORton right now. Personally, as a fan, I would enjoy Tebow. Much more fun to watch. But I'm not at practices busting my ass everyday only to watch the coaches put a guy in that isn't ready or the best to start.

Fair enough.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this as usual.

[Ravage!!!]

His name recognition wont be enough to boost his trade value and I don't see any team trading base on his name.

Well, its not just his name. He has three game starts, and the "potential" factor. People pick up players, draft player (us), and trade for players based on a person's name all the time.

Its not just his name, but the "potential" he could bring to a team that doesn't have to worry about having so much tied into him. They didn't spend a first round pick on him. They didn't use 4 picks to take him, and they are the ones giving an "all new" scenario.

Does it BOOST his trade value, or simply GIVE trade value. He has trade value, thats what I'm saying.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Is it possible Fox is protecting Tebow??? And I don't mean his trade value...

Unless you draft a top shelf OL, starting a rookie is throwing them to the wolves and risking your QB...

We saw that last year with Beadles & Walton and many suspected that they just weren't going to cut it. Then we throw Franklin to the wolves at RT and we have 3 big question marks.

It's a recipe for getting your QB killed... Of the 3 QB's Orton stands the best chance of dealing with the mess until the line stabilizes which may well result in going 1-5 into the break.

I understand that Tebow can make things happen with his feet but he still hasn't learned his reads and not to take on linebackers.

Until the line settles down I'd rather see Orton get killed than Tebow or Quinn.

I knew that Smith & possibly Carimi & Gilbert stood the best chances of surviving an indoctrination by fire but wasn't surprised that Fox took the better run blocker Franklin over Gilbert.

It's too bad we didn't go after McKinnie when he got cut... That would have really helped. The Ravens got so lucky with that...

[vandammage13]

Well, you might want to scroll up and see who we've been talking about, since it was Cassel and not Kolb, and the NE Patriots certainly were not going to start Cassel.... buddy.


Doesn't matter. He has the name and the "potential." YOu keep bringing up the drama, and Haynesworth comes with about as much as anyone.





FOr one, I don't want anything. I brought forth a possible scenario.

Two... who do you suppose knows more about how "real" that potential is.... those looking in, or those that are watching him day in and day out? Just because I see something as "trash" doesn't mean someone else doesn't perceieve it as "Treasure." Why on earth would ANYONE sign anyone's cuts? I mean, that team cut them, why would anyone want them? We see it all the time.

As far as me wanting to see Tebow "Through" the process. I have NOOO problem with starting him this year. None. Zero. I want it. But I understand why the coaches and GM wouldn't simply want to throw away a season purely because the fans would find it more entertaining. I also believe guys like Schlereth when he says he's been to 10 Bronco practices, and said Tebow was just terrible. How does the coach start a guy that the entire team can see as "terrible?" So I understand why the coaches are choosing to start ORton right now. Personally, as a fan, I would enjoy Tebow. Much more fun to watch. But I'm not at practices busting my ass everyday only to watch the coaches put a guy in that isn't ready or the best to start.

And then when the lights are on and the game is played Orton does nothing to prove that his triumphs in practice translate into him being the "best to start."

Does Fox want his "gamer" or a practice stud?...for all of Tebow's well documented struggles in practice, he exceeds expectations everytime he sees real playing time. Orton does just the opposite.

Does Fox get paid to run crisp 7 on 7 drills or win games?

[claymore]

And then when the lights are on and the game is played Orton does nothing to prove that his triumphs in practice translate into him being the "best to start."

Does Fox want his "gamer" or a practice stud?...for all of Tebow's well documented struggles in practice, he exceeds expectations everytime he sees real playing time. Orton does just the opposite.

Does Fox get paid to run crisp 7 on 7 drills or win games?

Orton beats Tebow in almost every statistic over more games last year.

[BigSarge87]

Orton beats Tebow in almost every statistic over more games last year.

Stats or not, it sure felt like the team had a whole let better chance of winning with Tebow in last year.

[BroncoStud]

Orton beats Tebow in almost every statistic over more games last year.

Except scoring.

Go back to Kyle's rookie season and have some fun laughing at those stats. He threw 9 TDs in 15 starts and had a QB rating under 50... FACT.

[Ravage!!!]

And then when the lights are on and the game is played Orton does nothing to prove that his triumphs in practice translate into him being the "best to start."

Does Fox want his "gamer" or a practice stud?...for all of Tebow's well documented struggles in practice, he exceeds expectations everytime he sees real playing time. Orton does just the opposite.

Does Fox get paid to run crisp 7 on 7 drills or win games?

What I don't get is how people that think Tebow can't perform in the 7 on 7 drills, yet will magically change in game time.

If he's playing QB in practice, and not taking hits (just like Orton), yet can't make the right reads, doesn't get the offense, doesn't throw it to the right guy, and is inaccurate..... how do you expect ANY coach to then turn around and start him??? Seriously.

If Schlereth is saying that he's gone to 10 or more practices of Denver, and says Tebow looks (and I quote) HORRIBLE... then how do you suppose the other veteran players are looking at Tebow's play? Why is THAT so hard to understand? If you can't make the throws during simple 7-on-7 drills when the DL aren't in your face, there is no reason to think that he's going to change and start making the right choices when the heat is on.

I KNOW that Orton sucks. I KNOW I don't want him in the game and would prefer Tebow becuase he's more entertaining. What I DON'T understand is how you guys expect the coaches to simply put the player on the field that has PROVED he doesn't have a clue whats going on right now with the offense? He's PROVED that to them. He's SHOWN that to them. He's shown it more than once, and he's proved it to them time and time again. He's not with it at the NFL level....YET.

The NFL QB is more about thinking than it is running around. I know I would much rather enjoy watching Tebow play because he's more exciting than Orton, but I certainly don't expect a first year HC to put the lesser player in the line-up purely because of the "why not" line-o-thinking. WHY NOT put Prater and play QB? It would be more exciting.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

WHY NOT put Prater and play QB? It would be more exciting.

I think Orton at kicker would be more entertaining! :lol:

[vandammage13]

Orton beats Tebow in almost every statistic over more games last year.

Until you factor in his rushing stats...he's a different type of QB so that has to be taken into account.

Also what about PPG? That has to count for something doesn't it?

[Ravage!!!]

Until you factor in his rushing stats...he's a different type of QB so that has to be taken into account.

Also what about PPG? That has to count for something doesn't it?

the sample size isn't exactly comparible.

[vandammage13]

What I don't get is how people that think Tebow can't perform in the 7 on 7 drills, yet will magically change in game time.
If he's playing QB in practice, and not taking hits (just like Orton), yet can't make the right reads, doesn't get the offense, doesn't throw it to the right guy, and is inaccurate..... how do you expect ANY coach to then turn around and start him??? Seriously.

If Schlereth is saying that he's gone to 10 or more practices of Denver, and says Tebow looks (and I quote) HORRIBLE... then how do you suppose the other veteran players are looking at Tebow's play? Why is THAT so hard to understand? If you can't make the throws during simple 7-on-7 drills when the DL aren't in your face, there is no reason to think that he's going to change and start making the right choices when the heat is on.

I KNOW that Orton sucks. I KNOW I don't want him in the game and would prefer Tebow becuase he's more entertaining. What I DON'T understand is how you guys expect the coaches to simply put the player on the field that has PROVED he doesn't have a clue whats going on right now with the offense? He's PROVED that to them. He's SHOWN that to them. He's shown it more than once, and he's proved it to them time and time again. He's not with it at the NFL level....YET.

The NFL QB is more about thinking than it is running around. I know I would much rather enjoy watching Tebow play because he's more exciting than Orton, but I certainly don't expect a first year HC to put the lesser player in the line-up purely because of the "why not" line-o-thinking. WHY NOT put Prater and play QB? It would be more exciting.

I think that it is because he did magically change in game time.

It may not have been pretty, but the guy rallied a dead team and put points on the board despite looking like crap in practice.

It has been discussed ad nauseum, but a structured setting isn't where he excels. He's not at the level yet where he can just sit in the pocket and pick apart a defense.

It is precisely his scrambling ability that makes him dangerous. Standing in the pocket he's just not that good right now.

Of course with our O-line, standing in the pocket and making it to your 3rd read is a moot point right now unless your Peyton Manning (pre-neck injury), as Orton proved.

What good is Orton's (questionable) ability to read the defense when he doesn't have time to make it to his 2nd read?

[vandammage13]

the sample size isn't exactly comparible.

Well according to Clay the sample size is big enough to compare their stats.....

Can't have it both ways.

[Ravage!!!]

It has been discussed ad nauseum, but a structured setting isn't where he excels. He's not at the level yet where he can just sit in the pocket and pick apart a defense.



Which is exactly why he won't start yet. Being an NFL QB is more than running around, it HAS to be a thinking man's position. EVERY report from practice has been that Tebow has been HORRIBLE about reading defenses and throwing to the right guy. If he's running around back there because he can't make the proper read, then he's not running the offense.

Simply making excuses for him like the "he needs the lights to play under".. or "he excels when its game time" simply doesn't cut it, not yet. Not until he can prove that he has what it takes to RUN the offense. Right now, he hasn't shown that. Right now, the offense has to limit itself to plays that Tebow can run.

ALthough we, as fans, may enjoy watching Tebow more because its not Orton, the coaches can NOT rely on someone that can't run the base offense. They can't call in plays knowing he can't make the reads, and HOPE he does something. Thats a terrible way to run the team. Until Tebow can prove to the team, and to the coaches, that he has somewhat of a grasp of the offense..... just enough to run the offense, doesn't even have to be good at it... then he's going to sit UNTIL he can prove to the coaches he can.

As much as we have a distaste for Orton, the truth of the matter is... he's going to be starting for quite a while bcause Tebow really does not get it yet. If he doesn't "get it" in practice, he's not going to "get it" in the games.

[BORDERLINE]

Woody made perfect sense.

This article was on point.

[arapaho2]

True. But as much as I find Orton to be a complete bore, I don't think he's going to play THAT poorly.


poorly???...dude...orton is playing his best ..thats from the horses mouth...career years!!

if these past two seasons have been his best years and career best seasons....i dont wanna see him play poorly...just couldnt take it:tsk:

[Ravage!!!]

Well according to Clay the sample size is big enough to compare their stats.....

Can't have it both ways.

I'm not talking about Clay. I'm talking about comparisons.

I can use individual games, and take stats from both player's best games.. but that woudln't be fair to Tebow. Using entire SEASONS worth of stats and compare them to 3 games,is unfair to both. I think thats pretty obvious.

Which is why I think the comparisons, in that regard, are pretty silly. Tebow loses one more game as a starter, he drops all the way down to a .250 winner and a .750 loser. Not exactly fair. Same in the other direction. He wins one more game, and he jumps up 25%. Thats a pretty big jump.

Its like the guy bragging about the WR that leads the league in YPC.. when he has 2 catches for the season. One was for 55 yrds, and the other was for 5. He averages a whopping 30 YRC!!!! You get the point.

[Ravage!!!]

poorly???...dude...orton is playing his best ..thats from the horses mouth...career years!!

if these past two seasons have been his best years and career best seasons....i dont wanna see him play poorly...just couldnt take it:tsk:

I'm talking about the last game. That was one of his worst. I'm not some Orton apologist, but even I can recognize and admit that Orton will rarely play that badly.

[vandammage13]

Which is exactly why he won't start yet. Being an NFL QB is more than running around, it HAS to be a thinking man's position. EVERY report from practice has been that Tebow has been HORRIBLE about reading defenses and throwing to the right guy. If he's running around back there because he can't make the proper read, then he's not running the offense.

Simply making excuses for him like the "he needs the lights to play under".. or "he excels when its game time" simply doesn't cut it, not yet. Not until he can prove that he has what it takes to RUN the offense. Right now, he hasn't shown that. Right now, the offense has to limit itself to plays that Tebow can run.

ALthough we, as fans, may enjoy watching Tebow more because its not Orton, the coaches can NOT rely on someone that can't run the base offense. They can't call in plays knowing he can't make the reads, and HOPE he does something. Thats a terrible way to run the team. Until Tebow can prove to the team, and to the coaches, that he has somewhat of a grasp of the offense..... just enough to run the offense, doesn't even have to be good at it... then he's going to sit UNTIL he can prove to the coaches he can.

As much as we have a distaste for Orton, the truth of the matter is... he's going to be starting for quite a while bcause Tebow really does not get it yet. If he doesn't "get it" in practice, he's not going to "get it" in the games.

I'm sure he's made improvements and has a better grasp on the offense by now...I'm also sure that Orton probably has a better grasp of the offense.

You make it seem like the guy doesn't know any of the plays but I haven't seen that printed anywhere this year...He's just probably not as familiar with the system as Orton is. Just because you say he doesn't know how to do these things doesn't make it so.

I'm sure the guy knows enough to get by right now, and would improve each week.

He's not going to start over Orton until the season is lost, that much I'm sure of. The regime will stick to their guns on Orton until they have no choice.

It's not because Tebow can't do it...It's because Orton is better at it right now (in practice).

[vandammage13]

I'm not talking about Clay. I'm talking about comparisons.

I can use individual games, and take stats from both player's best games.. but that woudln't be fair to Tebow. Using entire SEASONS worth of stats and compare them to 3 games,is unfair to both. I think thats pretty obvious.

Which is why I think the comparisons, in that regard, are pretty silly. Tebow loses one more game as a starter, he drops all the way down to a .250 winner and a .750 loser. Not exactly fair. Same in the other direction. He wins one more game, and he jumps up 25%. Thats a pretty big jump.

Its like the guy bragging about the WR that leads the league in YPC.. when he has 2 catches for the season. One was for 55 yrds, and the other was for 5. He averages a whopping 30 YRC!!!! You get the point.

I actually agree with you...

However I was responding to a post by Clay in which he was using numbers from Orton's season vs Tebow's 3 games.

Unfortunately 3 games is all we have to go on with Tebow so we have to make due with what we have and just know to take it with a grain of salt (which I figured was implied considering the sample size.)

[Ravage!!!]

I'm sure he's made improvements and has a better grasp on the offense by now...I'm also sure that Orton probably has a better grasp of the offense.

You make it seem like the guy doesn't know any of the plays but I haven't seen that printed anywhere this year...He's just probably not as familiar with the system as Orton is. Just because you say he doesn't know how to do these things doesn't make it so.

Schlereth used the words HORRIBLE. Reports from camps have used the words TERRIBLE, Horrendous, and aweful. Those words are not comparing him to Orton and Orton's knowledge of the offense. Those are words describing Tebow on his OWN merit and play. I'm not the one saying these things, it's those that are at the practices actually watching Tebow.. and those that actually KNOW the game.

You listen to ANY former Bronco that has gone to the practices and watched, and they don't say "well, he's got it down, just not as well as Orton." No. They are making statements such as: "he's just bad." "He doesn't get it." "He's HORRIBLE" (and before you start to try and tear down the words of Schlereth as being unreliable, he's shown that he's EXTREMELY fair to players on the Broncos roster giving both praise and criticisms when they are deserved)... and Schlereth wouldn't use those words lightly if he didn't MEAN them.

[chazoe60]

Anyone who thinks Orton can read a defense is kidding themselves. Orton's idea of reading a defense is "where's Lloyd? Oh there he is. Is he covered? Yep. Okay, well I'll either throw it to him anyway, take a sack, or throw it away. Which should I do?"

Seriously, he can't spot a blitz to save his own life. He's pretty much terrible at almost everything. Sorry, but I've never seen a QB lead more wide open WRs to tye ground or have happier feet in the pocket. Watch the game over again, he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn most of the time, whether he had time or not. And the OL wasn't terrible in pass protection for the most part.

The fact that Orton is the best QB on the roster is extremely sad. We'll be 1-7 or so by midseason with this team.

[NightTerror218]

Schlereth used the words HORRIBLE. Reports from camps have used the words TERRIBLE, Horrendous, and aweful. Those words are not comparing him to Orton and Orton's knowledge of the offense. Those are words describing Tebow on his OWN merit and play. I'm not the one saying these things, it's those that are at the practices actually watching Tebow.. and those that actually KNOW the game.

You listen to ANY former Bronco that has gone to the practices and watched, and they don't say "well, he's got it down, just not as well as Orton." No. They are making statements such as: "he's just bad." "He doesn't get it." "He's HORRIBLE" (and before you start to try and tear down the words of Schlereth as being unreliable, he's shown that he's EXTREMELY fair to players on the Broncos roster giving both praise and criticisms when they are deserved)... and Schlereth wouldn't use those words lightly if he didn't MEAN them.


I would like to know where you are hearing this. I have never heard any former player say this. Nor would I think they would ever say it. I watched twitter everyday during TC as people who were at TC commented on all the QBs. They never used the words "terrible, horrible, horrendous or any others that you are throwing out there. They just said Orton looked better, more confident and more polished.

[claymore]

Well according to Clay the sample size is big enough to compare their stats.....

Can't have it both ways.

All I said was that Orton had better stats in like 11 games than Tebow had in 3.

Tebows performance was progressivley worse each game he played. I believe they will continue to get worse because we can only use 3 pages of the playbok with the one read and run QB.

[Ravage!!!]

I would like to know where you are hearing this. I have never heard any former player say this. Nor would I think they would ever say it. I watched twitter everyday during TC as people who were at TC commented on all the QBs. They never used the words "terrible, horrible, horrendous or any others that you are throwing out there. They just said Orton looked better, more confident and more polished.

Listen to Schlereth. He said it last night on NFL network? NFL tonight? one of those. Listen to Alfred Williams talk about the situation sometime. Schlereth commented on this last night...said he went to 10 practices or more of Denver this year and Tebow looked Horrible. His words. He knows right now the topic is a hot one, and wouldn't take those words lightly if he didn't feel it.

[claymore]

I actually agree with you...

However I was responding to a post by Clay in which he was using numbers from Orton's season vs Tebow's 3 games.

Unfortunately 3 games is all we have to go on with Tebow so we have to make due with what we have and just know to take it with a grain of salt (which I figured was implied considering the sample size.)
Remember this the next time you refer to his awesome gut wrenching magical 3 game performance.

[Northman]

Montana says Tebow will be fine.

[Ravage!!!]

Montana says Tebow will be fine.

Bradshaw says he won't.

[Northman]

Bradshaw says he won't.

Anubis says he will.

[TXBRONC]

Anubis says he will.

I never trust malevolent Egyptian gods.

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[Northman]

I never trust malevolent Egyptian gods.

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Shame on you TX. :tsk:

I will try to control his wrath on you.... :D

[TXBRONC]

Shame on you TX. :tsk:

I will try to control his wrath on you.... :D

I appreciate it. :cheers:

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[Lancane]

I never trust malevolent Egyptian gods.

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Anubis just called and said he's got something big and black for your ass! :eek:

:lol:

Of course you could call Aphrodite and make it a party! :laugh:

[TXBRONC]

Anubis just called and said he's got something big and black for your ass! :eek:

:lol:

Of course you could call Aphrodite and make it a party! :laugh:

I'm not worried because my God has my back. :D

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[Northman]

I'm not worried because my God has my back. :D

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Yea, but he sucks. His day job is Qbing the Denver Broncos by the name of Kyle Orton.

[horsepig]

I would almost be ready to bring fricking Brian Griese out of the press box and suit him up than to see that bum start another game.

I don't care if it is Quinn or Tebow. If the team continues to suck, so be it. Draft a young stud next year. I have seen enough of that bum.

What is it that you guys don't see about Tebow? He has a way of making big plays, exciting to the fans plays, exciting to the team plays, and plays that make watching the team fun. Does he look like Johnny Unitas as he releases his throws, no, Fouts, no...........Kenny "Snake" Stabler, well maybe even better. Snake, by the by, won a Bowl.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Bradshaw says he won't.

The talking heads are so opinionated and in love with hearing themselves that they can't see beyond their nose...

I like Bradshaw but don't trust opinions of any of the talking heads...

Don't know what Montana is doing these days but I doubt he has a horse in this race...