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TXBRONC
09-14-2011, 10:08 AM
With Kyle Orton at QB, Broncos have only a ghost of a chance
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/14/2011 01:00:00

During training camp, Orton told a local radio station that the last two seasons were the best of his career, and also said to reporters, "I'm playing the best football of my career." Then, he added, "all I'll do is let my play speak for itself." After the latest loss to the Raiders, the Broncos are 11-18 when Orton starts. Let that record speak for itself.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18889449

As Elway said several months ago. This isn't verbatim: "It's about wins and loses not stats."

chazoe60
09-14-2011, 10:12 AM
The Broncos feel hopeless with Orton. He is as uninspiring a player as I have ever seen. Lucky for us he's been handed the keys to the franchise for the third straight season as though he is an elite untouchable player.

Let's just sign the loser to a ten year contract extension and resign ourselves to the fact that we are now bottom feeders.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 10:13 AM
wait... I thought the supporters kept telling us that Orton is a winner

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 10:14 AM
Let's just sign the loser to a ten year contract extension and resign ourselves to the fact that we are now bottom feeders.

Shut that up right now..... that just hurts to read.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 10:14 AM
Another reason top has gone into hiding

tomjonesrocks
09-14-2011, 10:24 AM
I actually don't think this is some huge shock to the Broncos.

The did try to move the guy. Thanks to McD's pointless extension, they couldn't and had to wait a year before they could be free of the guy.

They don't have to play him now that they're stuck with him, but apparently the other options didn't impress in camp at ALL. Which is lame.

It seems clear ALL the Broncos' QBs suck. I'd rather see a different QB out there sucking rather than Orton, but maybe we'll still get that chance if Orton continues on with his usual play.

TXBRONC
09-14-2011, 10:33 AM
The Broncos feel hopeless with Orton. He is as uninspiring a player as I have ever seen. Lucky for us he's been handed the keys to the franchise for the third straight season as though he is an elite untouchable player.

Let's just sign the loser to a ten year contract extension and resign ourselves to the fact that we are now bottom feeders.

I don't know if it's true that Orton's teammates or anyone else in the organization feels hopeless with Orton but the fact he's still the starter seems to say otherwise at least for the time being.

Sarcasm aside the only way Orton would get that kind of an extension is by winning the Super Bowl. As much as I love Broncos I don't see that happening this year. As Paige said Orton is 11-18 as the Broncos starter and that's with him playing the best football of his career. As mentioned before Elway said it's about winning and not stats.

BroncoStud
09-14-2011, 10:33 AM
Orton has a very good chance of having a record of something like 15-29 as our starting QB after this season, assuming he miraculously starts every game.

Northman
09-14-2011, 10:41 AM
Orton forgot to say "I let my play speak for itself....only in practice". lmao

PAINTERDAVE
09-14-2011, 10:46 AM
Brandon Lloyd was interviewed yesterday...

He just kept telling us as fans to -

"Relax. "

If he said it once.. he said it 5 times.

He laughed a lot.. said everything is gonna be ok.
Just give the team a chance...

They never once asked him about the QB spot.

So just "Relax"...
apparantly that is what the players are doing!

tomjonesrocks
09-14-2011, 10:46 AM
What did Orton say in that radio interview this week?

If it was anything other than "It was all my fault" he's an even worse leader than I thought.

AlWilsonizKING
09-14-2011, 10:46 AM
Orton has a very good chance of having a record of something like 15-29 as our starting QB after this season, assuming he miraculously starts every game.


I'd hate to see what Tebows would be.....seems everyone is ok with a losing season as long as it's with Tebow. Then they have an excuse to why our record sucks..."he's a rookie qb"


PEACE!!!

Northman
09-14-2011, 10:48 AM
I'd hate to see what Tebows would be.....seems everyone is ok with a losing season as long as it's with Tebow. Then they have an excuse to why our record sucks..."he's a rookie qb"


PEACE!!!

Nah, not really.

But at least with Tebow starting it will let us know if he can be the future or not. We know what Orton is, with Tebow we dont yet.

tomjonesrocks
09-14-2011, 10:50 AM
I'd hate to see what Tebows would be.....seems everyone is ok with a losing season as long as it's with Tebow. Then they have an excuse to why our record sucks..."he's a rookie qb"


PEACE!!!

I'd rather see Quinn. He looked the best in preseason even with the bad effort in the last game (though that was behind pathetic O-line backups). I think he has the most potential for a "when he's good--he's really good" type of performance (vs. "when he's good--he's mediocre" with Orton). Considering he's all the team has to show for that horrendous Hillis trade they might as well give him a shot.

Tebow's under contract next year and apparently the lockout hurt him the most. I'd rather see Tebow over Orton, but at least I can make a case for not playing the guy.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 10:52 AM
Brandon Lloyd was interviewed yesterday...

He just kept telling us as fans to -

"Relax. "

If he said it once.. he said it 5 times.

He laughed a lot.. said everything is gonna be ok.
Just give the team a chance...

They never once asked him about the QB spot.

So just "Relax"...
apparantly that is what the players are doing!

B Lloyd is fine with Orton starting because he knows Orton is going to throw him the ball.

It is in Lloyd's best self interests to have Orton as the starter because Lloyd only has 1 more shot at big $$.

Lloyd was among the league leaders last year in targets, and he knows he won't get the same amount with Tebow because Teebs will be running for first downs on broken plays instead of forcing Lloyd the ball.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 10:52 AM
Nah, not really.

But at least with Tebow starting it will let us know if he can be the future or not. We know what Orton is, with Tebow we dont yet.

The problem with this line of thinking is that its NOT the line of thinking in Dove Valley.
Apparently, from all indications, they already know what they got, and they dont like it.
I am sorry, truly i am, but thats where we are as of right now.
Question:
Whats your opinion of why Elway isnt starting TT right now?

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 10:55 AM
I'd hate to see what Tebows would be.....seems everyone is ok with a losing season as long as it's with Tebow. Then they have an excuse to why our record sucks..."he's a rookie qb"


PEACE!!!

The fans are just ready for a change and they are not blind to the promise Tebow showed in the last 3 games in 2010 (as much as the pundits want to dismiss it).

We are all tired of losing...simple as that. In the meantime, Orton seems to be content with "playing the best football of his career."

tomjonesrocks
09-14-2011, 10:55 AM
B Lloyd is fine with Orton starting because he knows Orton is going to throw him the ball.

It is in Lloyd's best self interests to have Orton as the starter because Lloyd only has 1 more shot at big $$.

Lloyd was among the league leaders last year in targets, and he knows he won't get the same amount with Tebow because Teebs will be running for first downs on broken plays instead of forcing Lloyd the ball.

I think that's BS. He clearly has a personal rapport with Orton. You can see Lloyd's talent on the field--leaps and bounds (literally) beyond anyone else on offense. The guy HAS to know he's "getting his" no matter who is back there. He had some comments in the offseason about the way the ball comes in from Tebow--but whatever. The team doesn't have anything they can go to that's as effective as throwing to Lloyd--double-covered or not.

AlWilsonizKING
09-14-2011, 10:56 AM
But at least with Tebow starting it will let us know if he can be the future or not. With Tebow we dont yet.

I just don't like putting faith in someone who hasn't impressed his COACHES or fellow PLAYERS enough to get the starting nod. But like I've stated before.....us fans know more than people who see him daily.


PEACE!!!

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 10:58 AM
Question:
Whats your opinion of why Elway isnt starting TT right now?

Simple...Elway is licking his chops at next year's QB prospects and he thinks they are better than Tebow.

He won't start Tebow because he doesn't want the fans to grow even more attached when he unconventionally balls out there.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 10:59 AM
Simple...Elway is licking his chops at next year's QB prospects and he thinks they are better than Tebow.

He won't start Tebow because he doesn't want the fans to grow even more attached when he unconventionally balls out there.

Disclaimer. I would like to know everyones opinion to this question.

AlWilsonizKING
09-14-2011, 11:01 AM
Teebs will be running for first downs on broken plays instead of forcing Lloyd the ball.

Or getting knocked out from wanting to run first throw second.


PEACE!!!

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:05 AM
The problem with this line of thinking is that its NOT the line of thinking in Dove Valley.
Apparently, from all indications, they already know what they got, and they dont like it.

Really? All ive seen is that they think he needs more work. I havent read anything that says they are throwing in the towel on him. If that were really the case he should of just been cut. But since they havent it tells me they like him and want him to get more workin in.


Question:
Whats your opinion of why Elway isnt starting TT right now?

Well, its not up to Elway. Its up to Fox. And Fox says that Orton gives them the best chance to win NOW. So its not about whether Tebow can play or not, its about the experience that Orton has over Tebow and who the coach feels can get them to the playoffs.

If Denver felt they were truly in a rebuilding process im sure Tebow would be starting. But since Orton is still here it changed their line of thinking alltogether and Fox simply cant lose the respect of the lockerroom by sitting Orton. It Orton was gone it would be a totally different senario right now.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 11:05 AM
Or getting knocked out from wanting to run first throw second.


PEACE!!!

Perhaps, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

I think he learned a good lesson in his first preseason game last year, and he seemed to do a good job of running out of bounds last year instead of taking hits.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:07 AM
I just don't like putting faith in someone who hasn't impressed his COACHES or fellow PLAYERS enough to get the starting nod. But like I've stated before.....us fans know more than people who see him daily.


PEACE!!!


When your rebuilding its not about faith. Its about evaluating to see what you need to improve upon. Ive said before and ill say it again. Even if we had Andrew Luck right now on this team he would not be playing in front of Orton. Orton is playing because he is the experienced player.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 11:08 AM
Really? All ive seen is that they think he needs more work. I havent read anything that says they are throwing in the towel on him. If that were really the case he should of just been cut. But since they havent it tells me they like him and want him to get more workin in.



Well, its not up to Elway. Its up to Fox. And Fox says that Orton gives them the best chance to win NOW. So its not about whether Tebow can play or not, its about the experience that Orton has over Tebow and who the coach feels can get them to the playoffs.

If Denver felt they were truly in a rebuilding process im sure Tebow would be starting. But since Orton is still here it changed their line of thinking alltogether and Fox simply cant lose the respect of the lockerroom by sitting Orton. It Orton was gone it would be a totally different senario right now.

By the bye week they will realize that it is a rebuilding year.

We aren't going to make any waves this year so we need to be focused more on building for the future.

That starts first and formost by benching the 7 year veteran assclown and developing your young talent.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 11:12 AM
Really? All ive seen is that they think he needs more work. I havent read anything that says they are throwing in the towel on him. If that were really the case he should of just been cut. But since they havent it tells me they like him and want him to get more workin in.



Well, its not up to Elway. Its up to Fox. And Fox says that Orton gives them the best chance to win NOW. So its not about whether Tebow can play or not, its about the experience that Orton has over Tebow and who the coach feels can get them to the playoffs.

If Denver felt they were truly in a rebuilding process im sure Tebow would be starting. But since Orton is still here it changed their line of thinking alltogether and Fox simply cant lose the respect of the lockerroom by sitting Orton. It Orton was gone it would be a totally different senario right now.

So you think Elway has no input into who starts at QB, its all a Fox decision, and that creating a Co-No2 position for him is showing TT that they have faith in him, and want to get more work with him. And that if they didnt have faith in him, he would have just been cut?!?!
And after watching Mon nights game, you still dont think this team is in a rebuilding process, and all along Fox was worried he might lose the lockeroom if Orton didnt start that game.
OK. Got it.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:12 AM
By the bye week they will realize that it is a rebuilding year.

We aren't going to make any waves this year so we need to be focused more on building for the future.

That starts first and formost by benching the 7 year veteran assclown and developing your young talent.

I have no idea when or where it will happen or if it will happen. Stranger things have happened in the NFL. But, i just want to see Tebow start a few more games so that i can get on board with "suckforluck" crowd. From what ive seen of Tebow he is currently no worse/better than John Elway, Joe Montana, etc, etc after 3 starts. If i was as a fan able to watch him for a few more games and see if he can improve or not improve it would make me a little more comfortable looking at a QB in the first round next year. Simply taking QB after QB isnt going to work if your not going to allow them to play. Look at teams like Detroit, St. Louis, and Carolina. They are letting those guys play so they can see what they got and allow them some gametime experience.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 11:16 AM
I have no idea when or where it will happen or if it will happen. Stranger things have happened in the NFL. But, i just want to see Tebow start a few more games so that i can get on board with "suckforluck" crowd. From what ive seen of Tebow he is currently no worse/better than John Elway, Joe Montana, etc, etc after 3 starts. If i was as a fan able to watch him for a few more games and see if he can improve or not improve it would make me a little more comfortable looking at a QB in the first round next year. Simply taking QB after QB isnt going to work if your not going to allow them to play. Look at teams like Detroit, St. Louis, and Carolina. They are letting those guys play so they can see what they got and allow them some gametime experience.

Apparently those team feel that their respective QBs can operate the offense competently. And apparently, EFX doesnt feel that TT can.
Or he would be playing.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:16 AM
So you think Elway has no input into who starts at QB, its all a Fox decision, and that creating a Co-No2 position for him is showing TT that they have faith in him, and want to get more work with him. And that if they didnt have faith in him, he would have just been cut?!?!
And after watching Mon nights game, you still dont think this team is in a rebuilding process, and all along Fox was worried he might lose the lockeroom if Orton didnt start that game.
OK. Got it.


Yes, i think Elway is respectful enough too allow John Fox (an experienced HC) to coach his team the way he sees fit. The Co-No2 bit? Who gives a shit about that? I mean really? Your going to hang your hat on that? :lol:

If Fox felt we were rebuilding he would of never said Orton gives us the best chance to win now. Unless your now just calling him a straight out liar which you could be i guess.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:20 AM
Apparently those team feel that their respective QBs can operate the offense competently. And apparently, EFX doesnt feel that TT can.
Or he would be playing.


Incorrect. They are letting them start because they know and have acknowledged that they are rebuilding. NONE of those teams are SB contenders right now. Those teams are getting them experience so that when all the final pieces are in place they are ready to be contenders. You can be mad at Fox or Elway (whoever you choose) for keeping Orton if you like. But its because of the decision to say we can win now thats telling the fans they feel they can contend now.

I mean shit, we have Brandon Lloyd telling us to relax after a very poor performance in game 1. Does that sound like a player who knows they are rebuilding? :lol:

TXBRONC
09-14-2011, 11:22 AM
So you think Elway has no input into who starts at QB, its all a Fox decision, and that creating a Co-No2 position for him is showing TT that they have faith in him, and want to get more work with him. And that if they didnt have faith in him, he would have just been cut?!?!
And after watching Mon nights game, you still dont think this team is in a rebuilding process, and all along Fox was worried he might lose the lockeroom if Orton didnt start that game.
OK. Got it.

Do have any real proof that Elway is telling Fox who he should start?

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 11:24 AM
Yes, i think Elway is respectful enough too allow John Fox (an experienced HC) to coach his team the way he sees fit. The Co-No2 bit? Who gives a shit about that? I mean really? Your going to hang your hat on that? :lol:

If Fox felt we were rebuilding he would of never said Orton gives us the best chance to win now. Unless your now just calling him a straight out liar which you could be i guess.

I didnt call Fox anything. I am trying to understand your line of thinking as to why TT isnt the starter in DEN, and he ISNT the NO2 QB either.
Hes CO-NO2. Yet a few including yourself, think he should be starting.
just trying to understand why tebow should start, but no one at Dove Valley or according to you, only John Fox doesnt think he should.
So i guess according to the HC, TT isnt going to see the field, and all the complaing in the world isnt gonna change that.
OK, got it.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Incorrect. They are letting them start because they know and have acknowledged that they are rebuilding. NONE of those teams are SB contenders right now. Those teams are getting them experience so that when all the final pieces are in place they are ready to be contenders. You can be mad at Fox or Elway (whoever you choose) for keeping Orton if you like. But its because of the decision to say we can win now thats telling the fans they feel they can contend now.

I mean shit, we have Brandon Lloyd telling us to relax after a very poor performance in game 1. Does that sound like a player who knows they are rebuilding? :lol:

So according to your opinion of the FO at Dove Valley, The Denver Broncos are NOT rebuilding?

Nomad
09-14-2011, 11:31 AM
So according to your opinion of the FO at Dove Valley, The Denver Broncos are NOT rebuilding?

why do you put so much effort into the SOCAL.....with each loss it's closer to your goal in getting Luck. Why should it matter who plays QB as long as they suck? Isn't that your mindset?

I don't buy the locker room BS because I don't believe there is any cohesion there to begin with though Dawkins is probably trying his best but knows it's a uphill battle on icy terrain. Fox inherited a ****** up team and it's gonna take more than Von Miller to turn it around.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 11:32 AM
Do have any real proof that Elway is telling Fox who he should start?

I didnt say Elway is literally telling fox who he should start.
i implied that Elway has input in the process of making a decision on who should start.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 11:36 AM
I wonder who is going to step up as raise the moral of the team.....Orton mentioned on his radio interview that everyone was down after the game and into the next morning. Where is the locker room leadership for them to raise the spirits? Will Orton do it?

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:38 AM
Yet a few including yourself, think he should be starting.

Yes, i think he should be starting. Like you i think we are rebuilding thats why i dont understand the thought process of having Orton start. I want Tebow to start so i as a fan can see what he has. NO TEAM has given up on a QB after just 3 starts who was drafted in the first round. Now, i know your going cry about him not being worth a first rounder and i agree but that doesnt change the fact thats where he was taken so thats what we are left with. You dont give a kid his bonus money as a first rounder without believing he can do something at this level. If Elway and company felt the way you do he would of been traded or cut or even better, on the practice squad.


So i guess according to the HC, TT isnt going to see the field, and all the complaing in the world isnt gonna change that.


Who's complaining? I just state my opinions like the rest of you on the subject and want to see more from the kid before we draft another QB. There's absolutely nothing wrong with me wanting that.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:38 AM
So according to your opinion of the FO at Dove Valley, The Denver Broncos are NOT rebuilding?

According to what they are telling us, yes. They feel they are not rebuilding. However, i personally feel differently.

Slick
09-14-2011, 11:39 AM
No.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 11:41 AM
According to what they are telling us, yes. They feel they are not rebuilding. However, i personally feel differently.

THey are rebuilding.....Fox said he wants to build the team through the draft....if the team is built then why mention build team through the draft why not say you are adding depth.

I think we are going to be drafting immediate starters this year and next. Then give them time to learn and we can be good again.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:41 AM
why do you put so much effort into the SOCAL.....with each loss it's closer to your goal in getting Luck. Why should it matter who plays QB as long as they suck? Isn't that your mindset?


:lol:

Ouch, that one is going to hurt.

I think the answer is pretty simple. Its fear really. Fact is, SoCal really likes Barkley and Luck even though they are no gimme's at the pro level. However, if Tebow goes in and actually performs well he is scared that Denver will pass on those other guys.

For me, just give me a guy who can win ballgames and get us back to the dance. I dont care if its Andrew Luck or Tim Tebow. If Luck was in the same position as Tebow right now i would still be making the same arguement. If Tebow can prove to be the guy im all behind him. He just needs a chance with a few games to prove it.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:42 AM
THey are rebuilding.....Fox said he wants to build the team through the draft....if the team is built then why mention build team through the draft why not say you are adding depth.

I think we are going to be drafting immediate starters this year and next. Then give them time to learn and we can be good again.

Cant have it both ways, either your in to win now or rebuild.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2011, 11:43 AM
By the bye week they will realize that it is a rebuilding year.

We aren't going to make any waves this year so we need to be focused more on building for the future.

That starts first and formost by benching the 7 year veteran assclown and developing your young talent.

Believe me -the FO is intelligent enough to realize that this year, AND at least one or two additional years, will be rebuilding years. There is NO way they can correct years of bad drafts, bad FA signings in one year.

Northman
09-14-2011, 11:43 AM
I wonder who is going to step up as raise the moral of the team.....Orton mentioned on his radio interview that everyone was down after the game and into the next morning. Where is the locker room leadership for them to raise the spirits? Will Orton do it?

Lloyd says relax.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 11:46 AM
:lol:

Ouch, that one is going to hurt.

I think the answer is pretty simple. Its fear really. Fact is, SoCal really likes Barkley and Luck even though they are no gimme's at the pro level. However, if Tebow goes in and actually performs well he is scared that Denver will pass on those other guys.

For me, just give me a guy who can win ballgames and get us back to the dance. I dont care if its Andrew Luck or Tim Tebow. If Luck was in the same position as Tebow right now i would still be making the same arguement. If Tebow can prove to be the guy im all behind him. He just needs a chance with a few games to prove it.

That's the thing! If Tebow is that bad.....the 'suck for Luck' crowd should be petitioning Dove Valley to start Tebow:lol:.

TXBRONC
09-14-2011, 11:47 AM
I didnt say Elway is literally telling fox who he should start.
i implied that Elway has input in the process of making a decision on who should start.

I doubt it. There is nothing to indicate that Elway helps to make those decisions. From what we've been told Fox has authority to set roster as sees fit. We have nothing else to go on that I'm aware of.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 11:51 AM
Believe me -the FO is intelligent enough to realize that this year, AND at least one or two additional years, will be rebuilding years. There is NO way they can correct years of bad drafts, bad FA signings in one year.

And I think that is precisely why ppl have such a problem with starting Orton. He does not fit into any long term plans.

Maybe Tebow doesn't either, but you really don't know until he gets a shot. Why not give him a shot in a meaningless season anyway?

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 12:02 PM
I doubt it. There is nothing to indicate that Elway helps to make those decisions. From what we've been told Fox has authority to set roster as sees fit. We nothing else to go on that I'm aware of.

Isnt that part of what a VP of Operations does?
Doesnt he review the current plans of his HC and decide
if its in line with the organizations goals?
Doesnt he review performance of the employees and their
managers and make decisions based on this information to
best move the organization forward?
Doesnt he establish proceedures and governing of the preformance of players?
Doesnt he initiate training needs and recommend personel action for players?
Doesnt he direct, monitor, and appraise the performance of players?

Northman
09-14-2011, 12:03 PM
That's the thing! If Tebow is that bad.....the 'suck for Luck' crowd should be petitioning Dove Valley to start Tebow:lol:.

You would think it would be that obvious. Having Orton start is the WORST thing if your a Andrew Luck or Matt Barkley fan.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 12:04 PM
You would think it would be that obvious. Having Orton start is the WORST thing if your a Andrew Luck or Matt Barkley fan.

Not worried. I have no doubt that Elway has a plan in place no matter what happens this year. Records are meaningless to him.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 12:07 PM
Why not give him a shot in a meaningless season anyway?

You just answered your own question. The coaching staff and players, don't consider it to be a "meaningless" season. The fans do, but those that are working their tail off day in and day out.... don't. They can't afford, nor can they accept, simply playing this out as if its a "meaningless" season.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 12:08 PM
You would think it would be that obvious. Having Orton start is the WORST thing if your a Andrew Luck or Matt Barkley fan.

did you see the Monday Night game???

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 12:08 PM
You would think it would be that obvious. Having Orton start is the WORST thing if your a Andrew Luck or Matt Barkley fan.

The ironic thing is that starting Orton is probably the best thing going for the Luck crowd, despite what the pundits say....

BroncoStud
09-14-2011, 12:08 PM
The only downside for Tebow starting is that we will win more games than if Orton does, and we may jeapordize our standing in the Luck Lottery.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 12:08 PM
Not worried. I have no doubt that Elway has a plan in place no matter what happens this year. Records are meaningless to him.

I don't want Elway to sell the farm for one unproven guy though Luck looks very promising....too many holes on this team. Only way you will get the 3 top QBs is to be in the top 5 which you have to lose alot of games and the BRONCOS will not be there.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 12:09 PM
You just answered your own question. The coaching staff and players, don't consider it to be a "meaningless" season. The fans do, but those that are working their tail off day in and day out.... don't. They can't afford, nor can they accept, simply playing this out as if its a "meaningless" season.

They are just in denial...cute really.

They will come to grips with reality by week 6.

I really think we're on the right track, but we are too young and too thin to be anything but a bottom feeder this year.

BroncoStud
09-14-2011, 12:09 PM
Football is about the QB. If you have one you have a chance. If not, you don't.

There aren't many 84' Bears or 2000 Ravens around, most of the time you need an elite QB to be a contender.

Obtaining a QB should be a priority for this organization.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 12:10 PM
The ironic thing is that starting Orton is probably the best thing going for the Luck crowd, despite what the pundits say....


The only downside for Tebow starting is that we will win more games than if Orton does, and we may jeapordize our standing in the Luck Lottery.

Now only if claymore would admit this!:D

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 12:11 PM
I don't want Elway to sell the farm for one unproven guy though Luck looks very promising....too many holes on this team. Only way you will get the 3 top QBs is to be in the top 5 which you have to lose alot of games and the BRONCOS will not be there.

I am of the opinion from everything i have seen so far under EFX, that that is EXACTLY what they are going to do.

BigDaddyBronco
09-14-2011, 12:12 PM
Isnt that part of what a VP of Operations does?
Doesnt he review the current plans of his HC and decide
if its in line with the organizations goals?
Doesnt he review performance of the employees and their
managers and make decisions based on this information to
best move the organization forward?
Doesnt he establish proceedures and governing of the preformance of players?
Doesnt he initiate training needs and recommend personel action for players?
Doesnt he direct, monitor, and appraise the performance of players?
He should work with Fox to make those decisions, but ultimately it should be his call on wether the organization tries to win as many games as possible this year, play some specific players to set the strategy for the future, or go into complete rebuild mode.

If they fumble around and don't make these decisions and there isn't a clear direction, that is on Elway and maybe he isn't the right guy for the job. Normally, that would be on the GM, but our organization is special when it comes to that.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 12:14 PM
They are just in denial...cute really.

They will come to grips with reality by week 6.

I really think we're on the right track, but we are too young and too thin to be anything but a bottom feeder this year.

Cute?

So you would rather the coaching staff and players go through the season with the mentality that this is a meaningless season?

And you call Orton a crappy leader. This is the kind of thinking I don't want ANYWHERE NEAR my football team.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 12:16 PM
I am of the opinion from everything i have seen so far under EFX, that that is EXACTLY what they are going to do.

I'll give you credit SOCAL. I thought there was no chance in hell McD was gonna draft Tebow and you said he would for weeks before the draft...you're right!

claymore
09-14-2011, 12:17 PM
i am of the opinion from everything i have seen so far under efx, that that is exactly what they are going to do.

good!!!!!!!

claymore
09-14-2011, 12:17 PM
I'll give you credit SOCAL. I thought there was no chance in hell McD was gonna draft Tebow and you said he would for weeks before the draft...you're right!

Remember how disgusted everyone here was at the idea of drafting Tebow?

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 12:18 PM
I don't want Elway to sell the farm for one unproven guy though Luck looks very promising....too many holes on this team. Only way you will get the 3 top QBs is to be in the top 5 which you have to lose alot of games and the BRONCOS will not be there.

There isn't really much of a farm left to sell.

BigDaddyBronco
09-14-2011, 12:19 PM
Remember how disgusted everyone here was at the idea of drafting Tebow?

No, just you. Hater.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 12:20 PM
Cute?

So you would rather the coaching staff and players go through the season with the mentality that this is a meaningless season?

And you call Orton a crappy leader. This is the kind of thinking I don't want ANYWHERE NEAR my football team.

No...I want to see 110% effort on every play.

I want the team to claw and scratch and show grit.

I want the team to show improvement..not the same 'ol crap we've seen for the last 2 years.

I also want the team to do it with players that might actually be here next year.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 12:21 PM
Remember how disgusted everyone here was at the idea of drafting Tebow?

I was willing to give him his shot because he was drafted but Tebow wasn't the guy we needed at the spot and not a choice I would have made. he is here so I want to see what he has regardless of what the coaches say!:lol:

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 12:26 PM
I'll give you credit SOCAL. I thought there was no chance in hell McD was gonna draft Tebow and you said he would for weeks before the draft...you're right!

Man, did i get flamed for that! I also said that Bradford was the guy he really wanted, but couldnt get. That turned out true as well.
My mock draft had DEN taking Tim Tebow and then trading back into the top of the 2nd and taking Demarius Thomas. :tsk:
Man, i am tired of being right.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2011, 12:38 PM
I doubt it. There is nothing to indicate that Elway helps to make those decisions. From what we've been told Fox has authority to set roster as sees fit. We have nothing else to go on that I'm aware of.

QUESTION


Does it seem to you like John Elway is being controlled by John Fox already? Elway always hated having to play in the Dan Reeves run-first system where they focused on defense. In that system, Elway was not allowed to be a true playmaker. Now he seems to be letting that exact thing happen here with Fox. Seems like it is Fox calling the shots. True?
---Phil Schonhoff, St Louis

ANSWER


Elway's new job of running the Broncos' football department does not include calling the plays. He essentially re-hired general manager Brian Xanders and the rest of the front-office executives to help him put together the roster. And he hired Fox to coach the team.

As boss, Elway gave Fox authority to hire his coaching staff. As boss, Elway allows Fox to coach the players.

Elway doesn't want to coach. Fox's style works. It's been proven. That's why Elway hired him. It was worth noting that as a Hall of Fame quarterback, Elway the boss wanted a coach who made defense and running the ball a priority.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_18887894

TXBRONC
09-14-2011, 12:52 PM
Cute?

So you would rather the coaching staff and players go through the season with the mentality that this is a meaningless season?

And you call Orton a crappy leader. This is the kind of thinking I don't want ANYWHERE NEAR my football team.

I don't think Orton's a very good leader. He's gives me the impression that when things are going bad he hangs his head.

I also think there is good chance that Orton gets the hook if he and the team and especially the offense struggle to put up points and wins. If we are something like 1-5 going into the bi-week I think Fox has to at the very least start considering making a change at quarterback.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 01:05 PM
I don't think Orton's a very good leader. He's gives me the impression that when things are going bad he hangs his head.

I also think there is good chance that Orton gets the hook if he and the team and especially the offense struggle to put up points and wins. If we are something like 1-5 going into the bi-week I think Fox has to at the very least start considering making a change at quarterback.

Absolutely, as do I. I think Tebow should be in the game now, but I understand that the coaches and players aren't looking at everything as "meaningless" purely because the fans do.

I think that after the bye, we see Tebow. We won't start him before the SD and Packers, especially without the extra week. But at the same time, right now, Quinn is the back-up.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 01:11 PM
Absolutely, as do I. I think Tebow should be in the game now, but I understand that the coaches and players aren't looking at everything as "meaningless" purely because the fans do.

I think that after the bye, we see Tebow. We won't start him before the SD and Packers, especially without the extra week. But at the same time, right now, Quinn is the back-up.

Well, Rav, I'm in agreement but let's see what happens Sunday. If anything the FO better be lighting candles and :pray: for a win because the natives (myself included) will rather lose with Tebow than Orton and I'm sure Dove Valley will hear it. I've already penciled in Tenn, GB, and SD as loses. BTW, I'd give Quinn his shot as well.

If anything, perhaps the coaches can scheme up some packages to throw Tebow into in the redzone.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 01:11 PM
Absolutely, as do I. I think Tebow should be in the game now, but I understand that the coaches and players aren't looking at everything as "meaningless" purely because the fans do.

I think that after the bye, we see Tebow. We won't start him before the SD and Packers, especially without the extra week. But at the same time, right now, Quinn is the back-up.

So if Quinn is the back up, how would we ever see Tebow?!?!
WTH!?!? Explain Rav.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 01:12 PM
Absolutely, as do I. I think Tebow should be in the game now, but I understand that the coaches and players aren't looking at everything as "meaningless" purely because the fans do.

I think that after the bye, we see Tebow. We won't start him before the SD and Packers, especially without the extra week. But at the same time, right now, Quinn is the back-up.

Meaningless or not (Perhaps my fandom got the best of me there), Orton should be benched based soley on his performance...

I'm not just talking about his performance Monday night, but his performance over his entire career.

He does not give us the best chance to win...I understand practices are important, but they really need to take a look at real game film and put more emphasis on that rather than his practice triumphs.

Even if you don't think the other QB's on the roster are quite the passer he is, Orton is not getting any better. It is time to try to develop the young talent to see if they can get better and quit wasting time.

BroncoStud
09-14-2011, 01:13 PM
Cutler and Hillis for...

Orton and Quinn...



WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 01:14 PM
QUESTION



ANSWER



http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_18887894

That makes sense, but it doesnt mean that Elway isnt completely invloved in overseeing the development or non-development of Tebow and how it effects the team at the QB position. Thats part of his job description as VP.
Elway seems to be somewhat involved being on the field with Tebow for hours running plays.

Nomad
09-14-2011, 01:14 PM
So if Quinn is the back up, how would we ever see Tebow?!?!
WTH!?!? Explain Rav.

he'd have his shot against Tenn, GB, and SD:laugh:

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 01:22 PM
He should work with Fox to make those decisions, but ultimately it should be his call on wether the organization tries to win as many games as possible this year, play some specific players to set the strategy for the future, or go into complete rebuild mode.

If they fumble around and don't make these decisions and there isn't a clear direction, that is on Elway and maybe he isn't the right guy for the job. Normally, that would be on the GM, but our organization is special when it comes to that.

Actually those are Xanders responsibilities. Elway would overlook that along with many other aspects of the broncos organization. If he spent that much time doing all what SoCal was saying, why is Xanders even in the equation and not fired if Elway has to do his job?

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 01:31 PM
Actually those are Xanders responsibilities. Elway would overlook that along with many other aspects of the broncos organization. If he spent that much time doing all what SoCal was saying, why is Xanders even in the equation and not fired if Elway has to do his job?

Ah, i would say the the General Managers responsibilities are
employment and regulations.
Policy development for employess
Preformance management and improvement design
employee compliance to regulations
Quality control
direct and oversee facilities and site operations
Oversee safety standards

Stuff like that.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 01:56 PM
Ah, i would say the the General Managers responsibilities are
employment and regulations.
Policy development for employess
Preformance management and improvement design
employee compliance to regulations
Quality control
direct and oversee facilities and site operations
Oversee safety standards

Stuff like that.

I would throw a few of those on Elway. But anything that has to do overseeing the players would be Xanders. Anything that has to do with the facilities would be Elway.

Xanders would have policy development, performance management/improvement, overall player safety, and scouting. Site operations would be his except possible training facilities for players and field condition.

Elway would be overseeing everything but would be more involved with overall operations of the franchise such as facilities and its employees, advertisement, sponsors and quality control. Money and how it is spent.

wiki:

In most professional sports, the general manager is a team executive responsible for acquiring the rights to player personnel, negotiating their contracts, and reassigning or dismissing players no longer desired on the team. The general manager may also have responsibility for hiring the head coach of the team.

For many years in U.S. professional sports,balls coaches often served as general managers for their teams as well, deciding which players would be kept on the team and which ones dismissed, and even negotiating the terms of their contracts in cooperation with the ownership of the team. In fact, many sports teams in the early years of U.S. professional sports were coached by the owner of the team, so in some cases the same individual served as owner, general manager and head coach.

As the amount of money involved in professional sports increased, many prominent players began to hire agents to negotiate contracts on their behalf. The intensified contract negotiations that resulted, as well as the overall increased need for professional business management, drove many sports teams to separate the positions of coach and general manager. Some coaches, for example Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan however, still insist on being allowed to fill both positions as a condition of employment.

In some sports leagues salary caps have been adopted to maintain a competitive balance and in these leagues it is one of the functions of the general manager to ensure all player contracts are in accordance with these caps, as well as consistent with the desires of the ownership and its ability to pay.

General managers are usually responsible for the selection of players in player drafts and work with the coaching staff and scouts to build a strong team. In sports with developmental or minor leagues, the general manager is usually the team executive with the overall responsibility for "sending down" and "calling up" players to and from these leagues, although the head coach may also have significant input into these decisions.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 02:04 PM
Meaningless or not (Perhaps my fandom got the best of me there), Orton should be benched based soley on his performance...

I'm not just talking about his performance Monday night, but his performance over his entire career.

He does not give us the best chance to win...I understand practices are important, but they really need to take a look at real game film and put more emphasis on that rather than his practice triumphs.

Even if you don't think the other QB's on the roster are quite the passer he is, Orton is not getting any better. It is time to try to develop the young talent to see if they can get better and quit wasting time.

Everyone has looked at last year's game film. Ron Jaworski (who is one of the very best in the business when it comes to breaking down game film) said back in April that after watching the game film for the Denver Broncos, the he felt MORE than certain that Orton would be the starting QB for the Broncos and would remain so throughout the entire season...barring injury. He stated, emphatically, that after watching Tebow play in his three starts, that he is FURTHER behind than he realized and just is NOT READY.

Teddy Bruschi said the same thing. Although I'm not a Bruschi fan, I respect his opinion when it comes to breaking down game film.

So I feel pretty confident that the coaches could see the same things these two saw.

Mix that in with the way they were playing in practices, and you have a pretty easy decision based on what they can see.


I don't believe in Kyle Orton one tiny bit. I don't want him as my starting QB any more than anyone else....really. I think he's about as lame/average/boring as you can get. But I don't think the coaches are as blind as some of you want to believe they are. There is reason they are coaches and we are fans watching the games from our televisions. We can make these emotional comments and decisions, and they have to make decisions based on facts and knowing their players/team. I don't think some of us realize just how far Tebow is from being ready.

I'm all for Tebow starting. Hell, I said that the moment he was drafted. I figure if we spent 4 picks to take the kid, then we better put him in the lineup from moment one and lets see what he has.

The problem is, even McDaniels.. the guy that used so many picks to move to get him... didn't want to start him when the season was more than over. That tells you something. It tells me something that the coaches have put Quinn at #2 if Orton goes down.

I'm absolutely sure (in my head anyway) that not starting Tebow has some political reasoning behind it. Meaning, that starting him now is showing the team that they are NOT putting the player in the lineup that gives them the best chance to win NOW. Elway was VERY sure to use those words in an interview, and how when he played he expected and trusted the coaching staff to put the guy in the lineup that gave them the BEST chance to win... period. There are reasons that two coaching staffs are picking Orton over Tebow when it comes to that decision... and Elway being a part of that "team" that is making those decisions.

So although we, as fans, hate hate HATE that the lame-ass Orton is our starting QB, we have to realize that we are making uneducated decisions based on emotion. I promise you, the coaches and players are not NEARLY as emotionally tied to this team as we are. They never will be. They don't make decisions based on their "love" for the Broncos, or how much more "exciting" it will be to watch Tim behind center.

Northman
09-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Not worried. I have no doubt that Elway has a plan in place no matter what happens this year. Records are meaningless to him.

If his plan is too draft QB's in the first round for the next 3 years without letting them play i wouldnt say thats much of a plan.

Northman
09-14-2011, 02:10 PM
did you see the Monday Night game???

So are you saying that had Tebow played we would of won? :lol:

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 02:10 PM
Everyone has looked at last year's game film. Ron Jaworski (who is one of the very best in the business when it comes to breaking down game film) said back in April that after watching the game film for the Denver Broncos, the he felt MORE than certain that Orton would be the starting QB for the Broncos and would remain so throughout the entire season...barring injury. He stated, emphatically, that after watching Tebow play in his three starts, that he is FURTHER behind than he realized and just is NOT READY.

Teddy Bruschi said the same thing. Although I'm not a Bruschi fan, I respect his opinion when it comes to breaking down game film.

So I feel pretty confident that the coaches could see the same things these two saw.

Mix that in with the way they were playing in practices, and you have a pretty easy decision based on what they can see.


I don't believe in Kyle Orton one tiny bit. I don't want him as my starting QB any more than anyone else....really. I think he's about as lame/average/boring as you can get. But I don't think the coaches are as blind as some of you want to believe they are. There is reason they are coaches and we are fans watching the games from our televisions. We can make these emotional comments and decisions, and they have to make decisions based on facts and knowing their players/team. I don't think some of us realize just how far Tebow is from being ready.

I'm all for Tebow starting. Hell, I said that the moment he was drafted. I figure if we spent 4 picks to take the kid, then we better put him in the lineup from moment one and lets see what he has.

The problem is, even McDaniels.. the guy that used so many picks to move to get him... didn't want to start him when the season was more than over. That tells you something. It tells me something that the coaches have put Quinn at #2 if Orton goes down.

I'm absolutely sure (in my head anyway) that not starting Tebow has some political reasoning behind it. Meaning, that starting him now is showing the team that they are NOT putting the player in the lineup that gives them the best chance to win NOW. Elway was VERY sure to use those words in an interview, and how when he played he expected and trusted the coaching staff to put the guy in the lineup that gave them the BEST chance to win... period. There are reasons that two coaching staffs are picking Orton over Tebow when it comes to that decision... and Elway being a part of that "team" that is making those decisions.

So although we, as fans, hate hate HATE that the lame-ass Orton is our starting QB, we have to realize that we are making uneducated decisions based on emotion. I promise you, the coaches and players are not NEARLY as emotionally tied to this team as we are. They never will be. They don't make decisions based on their "love" for the Broncos, or how much more "exciting" it will be to watch Tim behind center.


All i have to say about that is...McDaniels was an IDIOT.....in blow out games (for us or against) he kept that starters in every moment. What coach leaves starters in a blowout to get injured? Seriously?

So of course he was not going to play Tebow or any other backup for that matter. He was a shitty coach all around.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 02:13 PM
All i have to say about that is...McDaniels was an IDIOT.....in blow out games (for us or against) he kept that starters in every moment. What coach leaves starters in a blowout to get injured? Seriously?

So of course he was not going to play Tebow or any other backup for that matter. He was a shitty coach all around.

When we are Losing? The coach that is telling your players to NEVER quit!

I HATED McDaniels....but if I see we are losing and he's pulling the starters... I would be ******* PISSED off!! Seriously.

Northman
09-14-2011, 02:13 PM
Cute?

So you would rather the coaching staff and players go through the season with the mentality that this is a meaningless season?

And you call Orton a crappy leader. This is the kind of thinking I don't want ANYWHERE NEAR my football team.

Well, its not really YOUR football team. Its OUR football team.

http://www.chicagonow.com/stop-and-blog-the-roses/files/2011/07/mr-hand-fast-times.jpg

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 02:14 PM
So are you saying that had Tebow played we would of won? :lol:

No. I'm saying that if the plan is to lose, then it would appear that starting Orton seems to be a working plan.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 02:14 PM
Well, its not really YOUR football team. Its OUR football team.

http://www.chicagonow.com/stop-and-blog-the-roses/files/2011/07/mr-hand-fast-times.jpg

Hah... good reference....

*pizza anyone?* :beer:

Northman
09-14-2011, 02:17 PM
No. I'm saying that if the plan is to lose, then it would appear that starting Orton seems to be a working plan.

Well, that doesnt make sense then from your guys standpoint. If Tebow is the worst of the bunch than he should be starting IF the plan is to lose. But going by Fox, that isnt the plan. :lol:

Mike
09-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Well, that doesnt make sense then from your guys standpoint. If Tebow is the worst of the bunch than he should be starting IF the plan is to lose. But going by Fox, that isnt the plan. :lol:

May not be the plan, but will likely be the result regardless. :rain:

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 02:27 PM
I'm absolutely sure (in my head anyway) that not starting Tebow has some political reasoning behind it. Meaning, that starting him now is showing the team that they are NOT putting the player in the lineup that gives them the best chance to win NOW. Elway was VERY sure to use those words in an interview, and how when he played he expected and trusted the coaching staff to put the guy in the lineup that gave them the BEST chance to win... period. There are reasons that two coaching staffs are picking Orton over Tebow when it comes to that decision... and Elway being a part of that "team" that is making those decisions.

This is what I don't get about what John is doing here. You would think he would be the most understanding in this situation when it comes to building for the future.

If I remember correctly, I think we lost every single game Elway started in '83 and were undefeated in games he did not start (or something close to that, at least). I wonder if Elway thought it was fair to the team that he was starting even though DeBerg clearly gave us the better chance to win that year.

Even though Steve DeBerg was clearly the best choice if we wanted to win that year, it's still Steve DeBerg..and you're going nowhere with that guy. We played Elway because it was in the best interest of the LONG TERM FUTURE, even if it hurt us in the short term.

I'm not saying Tebow's ceiling is close to Elway, but it seems rather hypocritical that the 1983 team made sacrifices for Elway, but it is not OK to do it for someone else in 2011.

Point is that Tebow's ceiling is higher than Orton..Orton is our Steve DeBerg. If we can sacrifice a few games in 1983 (that was a playoff caliber team, by the way) to get Elway some experience, surely we can sacrifice a few games in 2011 (on a non-playoff caliber team) to get Tebow some experience.

Northman
09-14-2011, 02:30 PM
this is what i don't get about what john is doing here. You would think he would be the most understanding in this situation when it comes to building for the future.

If i remember correctly, i think we lost every single game elway started in '83 and were undefeated in games he did not start (or something close to that, at least). I wonder if elway thought it was fair to the team that he was starting even though deberg clearly gave us the better chance to win that year.

even though steve deberg was clearly the best choice if we wanted to win that year, it's still steve deberg..and you're going nowhere with that guy. We played elway because it was in the best interest of the long term future, even if it hurt us in the short term.

I'm not saying tebow's ceiling is close to elway, but it seems rather hypocritical that the 1983 team made sacrifices for elway, but it is not ok to do it for someone else in 2011.

point is that tebow's ceiling is higher than orton..orton is our steve deberg. If we can sacrifice a few games in 1983 (that was a playoff caliber team, by the way) to get elway some experience, surely we can sacrifice a few games in 2011 (on a non-playoff caliber team) to get tebow some experience.

bingo!

vettesplus
09-14-2011, 02:35 PM
what did orton say in that radio interview this week?

If it was anything other than "it was all my fault" he's an even worse leader than i thought.

so is was ortons fault that the broncos could not get the ball back for a final drive????

chazoe60
09-14-2011, 02:46 PM
so is was ortons fault that the broncos could not get the ball back for a final drive????

A lot of the blame goes on him for us needing to get the ball back for a final drive. We'd be stopping them from making a last second game winning drive if not for Orton instead of us needing a stop so we can try one of our own.

The INT at the end of tue first half. The phantom fumble. Both of those took scoring oportunities from us and gave them to the oponent. Sprinkle that in with his horrid accuracy, inability to read and react to blitzes, amd overall shitty play in the face of pressure and Orton was as big a reason for our failure as any other single individual.

Mike
09-14-2011, 02:50 PM
so is was ortons fault that the broncos could not get the ball back for a final drive????

:spit:

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 02:57 PM
When we are Losing? The coach that is telling your players to NEVER quit!

I HATED McDaniels....but if I see we are losing and he's pulling the starters... I would be ******* PISSED off!! Seriously.

So like the raider game last year? When we are obviously out of it you would not pull starters? You would rather Champ Bailey get knee blown out and lose him for career in garbage time that means nothing, or any other good player we have?

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2011, 02:58 PM
That makes sense, but it doesnt mean that Elway isnt completely invloved in overseeing the development or non-development of Tebow and how it effects the team at the QB position. Thats part of his job description as VP.
Elway seems to be somewhat involved being on the field with Tebow for hours running plays.

And possibly, Elway knows what is best for Tebow, based on what he went thru. Credit to The Glue Factory for posting the link today, which the following is from:


Remember all those stories? John Elway, the greatest collegiate quarterback ever. John Elway, the Stanford Sensation. John Elway, a sure thing in the pros. There was nothing he couldn`t accomplish, no pass too difficult to complete.

``They built me up to be a Superman, someone who could walk on water,`` Elway said.

Then came his rookie season with the Broncos and all those press clippings looked like false advertising. There were twice as many interceptions (14) as touchdown passes. There was one awful throw after another.

Bluntly: Elway bombed.

Pushed into a starting job, he was confused, scared and looked more like an All-Con than an All-Pro.

``He was memorizing things instead of learning them,`` coach Dan Reeves said. ``I made a mistake. I put him in there before he was ready. He wasn`t comfortable. After about the fifth game, I realized what I had done.``

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...ading-defenses

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 03:01 PM
This is what I don't get about what John is doing here. You would think he would be the most understanding in this situation when it comes to building for the future.

If I remember correctly, I think we lost every single game Elway started in '83 and were undefeated in games he did not start (or something close to that, at least). I wonder if Elway thought it was fair to the team that he was starting even though DeBerg clearly gave us the better chance to win that year.

Even though Steve DeBerg was clearly the best choice if we wanted to win that year, it's still Steve DeBerg..and you're going nowhere with that guy. We played Elway because it was in the best interest of the LONG TERM FUTURE, even if it hurt us in the short term.

I'm not saying Tebow's ceiling is close to Elway, but it seems rather hypocritical that the 1983 team made sacrifices for Elway, but it is not OK to do it for someone else in 2011.

Point is that Tebow's ceiling is higher than Orton..Orton is our Steve DeBerg. If we can sacrifice a few games in 1983 (that was a playoff caliber team, by the way) to get Elway some experience, surely we can sacrifice a few games in 2011 (on a non-playoff caliber team) to get Tebow some experience.

This would make sense if TT could run the offense.
But he cant. Or at least thats what i think the FO believes.
I think that the FO believes that TT just cannot operate under cneter proficiently and he cant read a defense to save his life.
And so, hes basically a wildcat QB and they just dont think thats the way to go. So Orton gets the nod.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 03:03 PM
This would make sense if TT could run the offense.
But he cant. Or at least thats what i think the FO believes.
I think that the FO believes that TT just cannot operate under cneter proficiently and he cant read a defense to save his life.
And so, hes basically a wildcat QB and they just dont think thats the way to go. So Orton gets the nod.

I think they want to give him some more proper coaching before throwing him in there. He did not get it last year or over the off season. In my opinion its like he is a rookie, he didnt get any work last year he should have. He needs the coaching.

claymore
09-14-2011, 03:03 PM
This is what I don't get about what John is doing here. You would think he would be the most understanding in this situation when it comes to building for the future.

If I remember correctly, I think we lost every single game Elway started in '83 and were undefeated in games he did not start (or something close to that, at least). I wonder if Elway thought it was fair to the team that he was starting even though DeBerg clearly gave us the better chance to win that year.

Even though Steve DeBerg was clearly the best choice if we wanted to win that year, it's still Steve DeBerg..and you're going nowhere with that guy. We played Elway because it was in the best interest of the LONG TERM FUTURE, even if it hurt us in the short term.

I'm not saying Tebow's ceiling is close to Elway, but it seems rather hypocritical that the 1983 team made sacrifices for Elway, but it is not OK to do it for someone else in 2011.

Point is that Tebow's ceiling is higher than Orton..Orton is our Steve DeBerg. If we can sacrifice a few games in 1983 (that was a playoff caliber team, by the way) to get Elway some experience, surely we can sacrifice a few games in 2011 (on a non-playoff caliber team) to get Tebow some experience.

Difference is that Orton isnt as good as Steve Deberg, and Tebow is nowhere close to being as good as John Elway.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 03:04 PM
This would make sense if TT could run the offense.
But he cant. Or at least thats what i think the FO believes.
I think that the FO believes that TT just cannot operate under cneter proficiently and he cant read a defense to save his life.
And so, hes basically a wildcat QB and they just dont think thats the way to go. So Orton gets the nod.

I guess its just a harder concept for me to grasp because I always was better at learning how to do something by doing, not by watching.

I just think he would learn quicker by being out there than sitting on the sidelines.

Northman
09-14-2011, 03:05 PM
I guess its just a harder concept for me to grasp because I always was better at learning how to do something by doing, not by watching.

I just think he would learn quicker by being out there than sitting on the sidelines.

Indeed.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 03:06 PM
Difference is that Orton isnt as good as Steve Deberg, and Tebow is nowhere close to being as good as John Elway.

But yet the concept remains the same.

claymore
09-14-2011, 03:06 PM
I guess its just a harder concept for me to grasp because I always was better at learning how to do something by doing, not by watching.

I just think he would learn quicker by being out there than sitting on the sidelines.

All our backups are on the bench for a reason.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 03:10 PM
All our backups are on the bench for a reason.

I can agree with that...

I think our opinions on what that reason is might differ though.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 03:23 PM
I guess its just a harder concept for me to grasp because I always was better at learning how to do something by doing, not by watching.

I just think he would learn quicker by being out there than sitting on the sidelines.

I agree with you in the concept of YOU learning how to install a radiator in a car. Lets just go do it and learn on the job.
I disagree when it comes to playing professional football. Cant do it that way in regards to the QB position.
By the time you are in the NFL, you either have it, or you dont.
Tebow is lightyears away from a player like Luck or Barkley.
Is TT as athletic and mentally as good as those guys? Hell yeah!
But hes missing so much mechanical, technical and mental ability that its just glaring. When i say hes missing mental ability i mean he doesnt know how to operate physically without actually thinking about it from under center.
Which means hes not thinking about what hes supposed to be doing, which is adjusting to the defense and making a hot read. No, hes instead consciously thinking about how to take a 5 step drop and then attempting to do it, and then try to look for his 1st read while professional football players are trying to kill him.
Its too late to learn this stuff at the NFL level. No team is going to attempt to try to teach a guy that while playing a actual NFL games. Thats insane. You are taught these fundamentals in high school.

MOtorboat
09-14-2011, 03:42 PM
All our backups are on the bench for football reasons.

Fixed it for you.

:hi:

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 04:07 PM
I agree with you in the concept of YOU learning how to install a radiator in a car. Lets just go do it and learn on the job.
I disagree when it comes to playing professional football. Cant do it that way in regards to the QB position.
By the time you are in the NFL, you either have it, or you dont.
Tebow is lightyears away from a player like Luck or Barkley.
Is TT as athletic and mentally as good as those guys? Hell yeah!
But hes missing so much mechanical, technical and mental ability that its just glaring. When i say hes missing mental ability i mean he doesnt know how to operate physically without actually thinking about it from under center.
Which means hes not thinking about what hes supposed to be doing, which is adjusting to the defense and making a hot read. No, hes instead consciously thinking about how to take a 5 step drop and then attempting to do it, and then try to look for his 1st read while professional football players are trying to kill him.
Its too late to learn this stuff at the NFL level. No team is going to attempt to try to teach a guy that while playing a actual NFL games. Thats insane. You are taught these fundamentals in high school.

Apparently he did it right in HS since he was one of the best ever QBs in college.....just saying. You dont get there by not being able to read a defense at all and not being able to throw accurately at all.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:12 PM
Apparently he did it right in HS since he was one of the best ever QBs in college.....just saying. You dont get there by not being able to read a defense at all and not being able to throw accurately at all.

He did it right as in when he broke his leg running like he always seems to do?
Then he played on the broken leg. And he even scored with a broken leg! wow! Sounds like a HB/TE to me. Or a QB who never sees the field in the NFL cause hes always injured.....causes hes always running.
Thats what he was in HS at Neace... a running QB.
And thats exactly what he STILL is... a running QB.
Doesnt TT hold the HS record for rushing TDs?
Again, HB/TE.

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 04:19 PM
He did it right as in when he broke his leg running like he always seems to do?
Then he played on the broken leg. And he even scored with a broken leg! wow! Sounds like a HB/TE to me. Or a QB who never sees the field in the NFL cause hes always injured.....causes hes always running.
Thats what he was in HS at Neace... a running QB.
And thats exactly what he STILL is... a running QB.
Doesnt TT hold the HS record for rushing TDs?
Again, HB/TE.

And he has yet to miss a game in college or pros...

The one time he was in danger of missing a game in college was when he took a hit in...(wait for it)....the pocket.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:27 PM
And he has yet to miss a game in college or pros...

The one time he was in danger of missing a game in college was when he took a hit in...(wait for it)....the pocket.

Look Lex, i am trying to reason with you as to why the FO and HC wont start your boy. The fact that he doesnt know what to do in the pocket and then gets killed while he trys to play there, only highlights his lack of ability at playing in a pro-style offense.They arent going to start a guy who cant make plays from under center. Running clearly isnt the way to go at the QB position from what i see from the FO/HC. Thats not what they want. What they want isnt on the team.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 04:34 PM
He did it right as in when he broke his leg running like he always seems to do?
Then he played on the broken leg. And he even scored with a broken leg! wow! Sounds like a HB/TE to me. Or a QB who never sees the field in the NFL cause hes always injured.....causes hes always running.
Thats what he was in HS at Neace... a running QB.
And thats exactly what he STILL is... a running QB.
Doesnt TT hold the HS record for rushing TDs?
Again, HB/TE.

so in his final college game throwing for 300 yards means nothing? Only reason I mention college is because you are comparing Luck/Barkley and Tebow. And 1 thing is they will never been as successful in NCAA as Tebow.

BTW Tebow averaged more passing yards then Luck. Tebow averaged 2975.6 as a starter, Luck is at 2957 as a starter. Nice running QB who can throw too.

Now like i mentioned before college stats mean squat, its about how they produce in the NFL. Luck could be as big of a bust as many other TOP QBs DRAFTED.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 04:35 PM
Look Lex, i am trying to reason with you as to why the FO and HC wont start your boy. The fact that he doesnt know what to do in the pocket and then gets killed while he trys to play there, only highlights his lack of ability at playing in a pro-style offense.They arent going to start a guy who cant make plays from under center. Running clearly isnt the way to go at the QB position from what i see from the FO/HC. Thats not what they want. What they want isnt on the team.

He played well in preseason game 4 from the......POCKET!!!!!!!!

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 04:36 PM
Look Lex, i am trying to reason with you as to why the FO and HC wont start your boy. The fact that he doesnt know what to do in the pocket and then gets killed while he trys to play there, only highlights his lack of ability at playing in a pro-style offense.They arent going to start a guy who cant make plays from under center. Running clearly isnt the way to go at the QB position from what i see from the FO/HC. Thats not what they want. What they want isnt on the team.

I highly doubt their reasoning for not playing him would be that he would get hurt...That's part of the game.

If you want to say its because he's not good enough yet I'll listen to your argument. ( I won't agree, but I'll listen...)

By the way, I don't get the Lex reference...enlighten me

swaiy
09-14-2011, 04:37 PM
He played well in preseason game 4 from the......POCKET!!!!!!!!

Apparently a pocket made from scrubs that probably aren't even on a team. Imagine that. Good thing Orton looked good in the pocket on Monday. Oh wait...

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:46 PM
so in his final college game throwing for 300 yards means nothing? Only reason I mention college is because you are comparing Luck/Barkley and Tebow. And 1 thing is they will never been as successful in NCAA as Tebow.

BTW Tebow averaged more passing yards then Luck. Tebow averaged 2975.6 as a starter, Luck is at 2957 as a starter. Nice running QB who can throw too.

Now like i mentioned before college stats mean squat, its about how they produce in the NFL. Luck could be as big of a bust as many other TOP QBs DRAFTED.

So....why isnt he starting!?!?!?

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 04:47 PM
Look Lex, i am trying to reason with you as to why the FO and HC wont start your boy. The fact that he doesnt know what to do in the pocket and then gets killed while he trys to play there, only highlights his lack of ability at playing in a pro-style offense.They arent going to start a guy who cant make plays from under center. Running clearly isnt the way to go at the QB position from what i see from the FO/HC. Thats not what they want. What they want isnt on the team.

By the way read this article that has been posted a few times by various members today: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-09-27/news/8502110389_1_john-albert-elway-broncos-reading-defenses

You will see that even in 1985 an experienced 3-year vet named Elway was still rolling out of your precious pocket 21 times in a single game.

It's about scoring points and winning the game. I don't care how he gets it done, just get it done....Tebow scored points in those 3 starts. He'll get the pocket presence down in time.

If Elway is still rolling out of the pocket 21 times in a single game in year 3, then how the hell do you expect Tebow to be a polished pocket passer at this stage in his career?

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:48 PM
He played well in preseason game 4 from the......POCKET!!!!!!!!

Apparently the FO/HC dont think so.
Just sayin...

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 04:48 PM
So....why isnt he starting!?!?!?

Because they want to coach him more. They know he is raw and needs some good solid coaching. Since they are stuck with Orton (busted trade) why not coach him up while they can let him ride the pine a little longer. Elway even said himself that QBs should wait before being thrown in, he was thrown in there too early himself.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:49 PM
I highly doubt their reasoning for not playing him would be that he would get hurt...That's part of the game.

If you want to say its because he's not good enough yet I'll listen to your argument. ( I won't agree, but I'll listen...)

By the way, I don't get the Lex reference...enlighten me

Everyone else will get it. :lol:

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 04:49 PM
Apparently the FO/HC dont think so.
Just sayin...

So you know them well then. Can I have their #, I would like to give them a call, I prefer cell numbers.

If you have a young QB who can ride the bench a little longer to get some much needed coaching in. Why force him in right away?

vandammage13
09-14-2011, 04:51 PM
Everyone else will get it. :lol:

Aww cmon man, that's bush league...don't leave me hangin.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:54 PM
By the way read this article that has been posted a few times by various members today: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-09-27/news/8502110389_1_john-albert-elway-broncos-reading-defenses

You will see that even in 1985 an experienced 3-year vet named Elway was still rolling out of your precious pocket 21 times in a single game.

It's about scoring points and winning the game. I don't care how he gets it done, just get it done....Tebow scored points in those 3 starts. He'll get the pocket presence down in time.

If Elway is still rolling out of the pocket 21 times in a single game in year 3, then how the hell do you expect Tebow to be a polished pocket passer at this stage in his career?

John Elway WAS a polished passer by the time he entered the NFL.
So he scrambled. Good for him. I am glad he could do both, and he had to many more times. However, he could operate an offense competently as well. Yeah, he struggled. All rookies will struggle, but not being able to operate the offense is something completely different.
Unfortunately TT just doesnt have the basic fundamentals. Thats clearly what the analysts say, what many sane fans have seen, and clearly what the FO believe. Or he would be playing.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-14-2011, 04:56 PM
Question:
Whats your opinion of why Elway isnt starting TT right now?

First off, Elway doesn't "start" anyone. He's allowing his HC to play the players he wants to play. To be honest, I think Fox is under a lot of pressure to "win now" knowing Denver's history. Because of that, he's starting Orton for 2 reasons:

1) The locker room. He believes the locker room will take it badly if the veteran is replaced by the semi-rookie before he proves (to Fox and the team, not based on past performance) that he's just not getting it done. Lloyd is the mouth of the locker room right now, and he loves Orton because of what Orton does for his stats. Lloyd is the one doing all the interviews and so everyone thinks this is the "locker room perspective".

2) Fox believes he can turn our running game and defense around so that Orton can just be a caretaker and not lose games. He's really hoping that Orton can be his Jake Delhomme who did have a couple good seasons, but Orton isn't Delhomme. Delhomme wasn't a great QB but he was fiery and was a good leader for the Panthers. Orton isn't.

I still think that if we're 1-4, or 0-5 heading into the bye week (which is very likely with the amount of injuries we've already suffered) then Tebow or Quinn will start after the bye week. Denver doesn't like losing and isn't used to it and I can't imagine we'll sit idly by and not at east try to mix it up a little to generate some wins.

SOCALORADO.
09-14-2011, 04:56 PM
So you know them well then. Can I have their #, I would like to give them a call, I prefer cell numbers.

If you have a young QB who can ride the bench a little longer to get some much needed coaching in. Why force him in right away?

Isnt that what the FO was going to do? trade away orton and make TT the starter? that was the plan, until...............they saw him play.

Lets just wait and see what happens. shall we?
Lets just see.

swaiy
09-14-2011, 04:59 PM
You know what?

Had Orton been playing with the 2string O-line in preseason, he'd probably be better prepared for the Raiders. He could have gotten some extra experience running for his life.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 05:00 PM
Isnt that what the FO was going to do? trade away orton and make TT the starter? that was the plan, until...............they saw him play.

Lets just wait and see what happens. shall we?
Lets just see.

Or until Orton said he wouldnt play for anything less and would not change his contract for Miami. So we were stuck with him.

I do say lets see, we all know Orton will fall on his face. Just how soon will Fox realize he needs to change it up.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2011, 05:13 PM
By the way read this article that has been posted a few times by various members today: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-09-27/news/8502110389_1_john-albert-elway-broncos-reading-defenses

You will see that even in 1985 an experienced 3-year vet named Elway was still rolling out of your precious pocket 21 times in a single game.

It's about scoring points and winning the game. I don't care how he gets it done, just get it done....Tebow scored points in those 3 starts. He'll get the pocket presence down in time.

If Elway is still rolling out of the pocket 21 times in a single game in year 3, then how the hell do you expect Tebow to be a polished pocket passer at this stage in his career?

Here is what the article has, in regards to this - not just scrambling, but the whole package.


He is doing it all -- passing with precision, scrambling with great success and reading defenses as if it were second nature.


``Everything is so much easier now,`` Elway said. ``I`m seeing things a lot better. Sometimes it`s hard for me to believe how much I`ve really improved.``

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-09-27/news/8502110389_1_john-albert-elway-broncos-reading-defenses

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 05:22 PM
Here is what the article has, in regards to this - not just scrambling, but the whole package.




http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-09-27/news/8502110389_1_john-albert-elway-broncos-reading-defenses

IN his 3rd year, after 2 years of starting (well not all of his first year but some)

Denver Native (Carol)
09-14-2011, 06:19 PM
IN his 3rd year, after 2 years of starting (well not all of his first year but some)

After running a pro style offense in college.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 06:25 PM
After running a pro style offense in college.

and throwing more interception then touchdowns in his first 2 season.....bad reading of defense and bad passes.

Like i have said 100 times there are only a handful of strictly pro-style offense. Many are similar or a twist to the pro-style, and same with spread offense, many are similar to that too. Why don't you google it cause I am not going to post it for the 100th time. SoCal ignored it last time i posted it.

NightTerror218
09-14-2011, 06:48 PM
Funny....when Orton was asked a Tebow question he got defensive and told them that asking him is wasting his time. I think he knows with his play Tebow/quinn are much closer to a challenging the starting role.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 09:32 PM
and throwing more interception then touchdowns in his first 2 season.....bad reading of defense and bad passes.

Like i have said 100 times there are only a handful of strictly pro-style offense. Many are similar or a twist to the pro-style, and same with spread offense, many are similar to that too. Why don't you google it cause I am not going to post it for the 100th time. SoCal ignored it last time i posted it.

This just shows that you never watched him play, and are only reading stats and wiki pages. Again, proving that the stats and paper reading, doesn't prove anything and is rarely the truth as to the reality. Some understand this, others rely on paper stats.

Ravage!!!
09-14-2011, 09:33 PM
Funny....when Orton was asked a Tebow question he got defensive and told them that asking him is wasting his time. I think he knows with his play Tebow/quinn are much closer to a challenging the starting role.

Actually, I pretty much expect that of any player asked a question that is leading to problems in regards to a teammate. Not answering is the right thing to do.

TXBRONC
09-14-2011, 10:05 PM
and throwing more interception then touchdowns in his first 2 season.....bad reading of defense and bad passes.

Like i have said 100 times there are only a handful of strictly pro-style offense. Many are similar or a twist to the pro-style, and same with spread offense, many are similar to that too. Why don't you google it cause I am not going to post it for the 100th time. SoCal ignored it last time i posted it.

That's true of a lot young quarterbacks that they have more interceptions than touchdowns their first couple of years of starting. Also Elway was vastly improved from year one to year two.

Npba900
09-14-2011, 10:09 PM
wait... I thought the supporters kept telling us that Orton is a winner

Actually Orton and Quinn gives the Broncos the best chance to draft Barkley, Landry, or Luck in 2012!

Tebow serves as a one year starter in 2012/buffer for either Barkley, Landry, or Luck to learn for one year.

Tebow is the starter in 2012, while being allowed to show case his skill set for other teams in 2013 interested in trading for him.

There, everybody wins!;)

Look at as San Diego scenario where the Chargers had to make the choice between Drew Breze and Phillip Rivers.