Observations from tonights game

[Northman]

Offense:

Orton:
In a perfect world with a perfect defense, a perfect offensive line, and allstar RB's Orton could be a QB who leads a team to the promise land. But, its not a perfect world, and Denver is in transition while at the same time rebuilding what McD destroyed. While tonight was not just his fault it again sheds the obvious light one what many already knew about Kyle. He needs the perfect system in order to be successful. But in close games he cannot come up clutch when needed too. Orton is a perfect example of a QB who can make some nice throws but at the same time make some terrible ones and makes them at the most crucial time. Sorry, while we may/may not have a QB who can guide us to wins Orton clearly isnt the best chance to win this year. We should be taking a page out of the Carolina playbook and see what Tebow has to offer this year. If he isnt the answer than welcome to the Luck/Barkley/fill in your QB name here sweepstakes.

Offensive Line:

Like last year, there were some good moments and bad moments with the Oline. But i find that the line actually does more good things than bad and tonight was no different. They were rough but on more occasions than not did a very good job considering their youth. While they missed some assignments on the Raider blitz packages i attribute that more to Orton not taking charge of his team and not giving direction when it is needed. Orton needs to understand his line is young and they look to him for leadership and guidance. He's doing them no favors by not audibling or directing the line blocking when teams blitz.

RB's

Overall, not super happy but not super pissed either. Orton's lack of throwing down the field early simply told the Raider defense that they had nothing to fear and thus they started to put 8 in the box to force Orton to win the game. As predicted though, Moreno was much more valuable as a scat back and receiver out of the backfield. But both he and McGahee need to work on holding onto the ball. Turnovers are unacceptable even from the backs.

WR's

Lloyd still impressed which was good. And finally when Orton decided to look at other receivers we can see that Royal can be a valuable asset and even moreso with Decker who shined the brightest tonight. TE's were so-so but i think in the end Orange Julius will be more valuable as a receiving threat than Wells will be. Time will tell.



Defense:

Dline:

For the most part considering i was happy. But you can tell as the game wore on that they started to fail again. But part of that blame goes on the offense for just not giving them rest and not getting in the endzone enough. As predicted, the run stoppage is still a sore area and Fox and Elway need to quit farting around and get a REAL DT next year. When it all mattered tonight the Raiders ran at WILL on us when they needed too to kill the clock. That used to be US some time ago.

LB's

Miller is all that and a bag of chips. Still would have gone DT this past draft but i cant bitch about Miller as he has lived up to the hype, so far. Woodyard also at least showed he can tackle like DJ Williams so i was happy about that too. The pass rush was improved but lets face it, we were playing Jason Campbell and not Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. We shall see how "effective" they are against the elite.

Secondary:

Oddly enough this was the best part of the defense for me. Dawkins showed why i still consider him one of the best defensive players on the team. He was all over the place tonight and good thing as a few times McFadden was turning the corner and burning our LB's and DE's. So good thing he was there for run support. Same with Champ.



Summary:

Overall, we played much better on defense which in a way was expected because of Fox. However, i still think that Oakland isnt nearly as good as they were last year. They lost some key players this offseason and really we should of won this game if not for the silly penalities, turnovers, and bad play at times. Never the less, we are not going to win 8-10 games this year. Not unless something drastically improves but i dont see it happening. Also keep in mind most of our positive plays tonight happened because one of the most penalized teams in the NFL kept bailing us out in 3 and longs. In my opinion, Fox needs to sack up. Play Tebow for good or for bad so that when next years draft comes along we have a clear picture of what we need. Tonight was only the beginning for the Tebow fanatics so if you play the guy this year and he fails than all of them leave with him. If Tebow succeeds and improves as a player than at least we have something to build on. With Orton, we already know what we have.

[silkamilkamonico]

I think defense played hard throughout the entire game and that's a plus.

Our offense is absolutely pathetic. Undisciplined, weak, our RB's are only as good as the oline, and cannot make anything happen themselves, Eddie Royal just is not a good starting WR - to think we could have had DeSean Jackson is painful.

Really really disappointing effort from the offensive standpoint.

[FanInAZ]

My observations are simple. It was 1 of the worst games I ever witness played by 2 teams that both deserved to get blown out. The Broncos played horrible, especially in the trenches on both side of the ball. The Raiders played stupid by amassing so many personal foul penalties. Neither team will finish with a winning record unless they can get their act together.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Different people, same results

[DenBronx]

******* pathetic...


was at buffalo wild wings in dublin and it was wall to wall packed with 99% raider fans. me and two other bronco fans were there and thats it. the funny thing is alot of them started to leave when the game got close. with as bad as we played we still had chances to win....i again put this on orton. those who keep defending him are BLIND!!! even raider fans were chanting to put in tebow.......absolutely pathetic and not acceptable.


...anyhow kyles ass should be on a bench. i actually thought our rookies were the only bright spot. im still happy with miller, moore ect. i know we need a couple of stud dts but...this team wasnt going anywhere this year anyway.



its tebow time...put the kid in and just let him play dammit!!

[Northman]

even raider fans were chanting to put in tebow.

That.....is sad. :lol:

[DenBronx]

Different people, same results

well....at least it wasnt 59-14 and if not for a 63 yard field goal who knows.

but our defense looks improved but still lots of work to do. at least were on our way.

and i dont see our run game being this bad for too long with fox. looks like a long year though.


remember we will have 4 new players next time we meet oakland. warren, thomas, dj and demaryius. maybe we kick the shit out of them in their house.

[Day1BroncoFan]

I still have hope just not high hopes. I want the Broncos to win so bad I can taste it.

I hope they prove to me they can will. Almost anything would be better than last year.

[DenBronx]

That.....is sad. :lol:

and thats not a lie.


very rowdy bunch tonight...glad i didnt end up in jail.

[FanInAZ]

if not for a 63 yard field goal who knows.

If not for Orton dropping a football when he had a wide open receiver in, who knows?

[DenBronx]

I still have hope just not high hopes. I want the Broncos to win so bad I can taste it.

I hope they prove to me they can will. Almost anything would be better than last year.

hang in their bud! their time is coming soon.


it could have easily went either way....even as bad as we are at stopping the run.


if the raiders were playing the saints, jets or packers they would get exposed fast.

[BroncoStud]

Am I the only one who doesn't have faith in John Fox to make a QB change if it gets to that point - which in my opinion it already is...?

If Orton doesn't impress by week 5 can we possibly justify keeping him in? The boos will become more and more relentless.

[DenBronx]

If not for Orton dropping a football when he had a wide open receiver in, who knows?

that sucked balls....i agree. that set up the raiders to score....so did the fumbles.

we beat ourselves and orton made sure he would give the raiders every advantage.

[DenBronx]

Am I the only one who doesn't have faith in John Fox to make a QB change if it gets to that point - which in my opinion it already is...?

If Orton doesn't impress by week 5 can we possibly justify keeping him in? The boos will become more and more relentless.

thats just it, he wont. he has always had a boner for veteran qbs. he did the same thing in carolina...i hope he has learned from that. this team is in dire need of a franchise qb.

[BroncoTech]

Offense:

Orton:
In a perfect world with a perfect defense, a perfect offensive line, and allstar RB's Orton could be a QB who leads a team to the promise land. But, its not a perfect world, and Denver is in transition while at the same time rebuilding what McD destroyed. While tonight was not just his fault it again sheds the obvious light one what many already knew about Kyle. He needs the perfect system in order to be successful. But in close games he cannot come up clutch when needed too. Orton is a perfect example of a QB who can make some nice throws but at the same time make some terrible ones and makes them at the most crucial time. Sorry, while we may/may not have a QB who can guide us to wins Orton clearly isnt the best chance to win this year. We should be taking a page out of the Carolina playbook and see what Tebow has to offer this year. If he isnt the answer than welcome to the Luck/Barkley/fill in your QB name here sweepstakes.

Offensive Line:

Like last year, there were some good moments and bad moments with the Oline. But i find that the line actually does more good things than bad and tonight was no different. They were rough but on more occasions than not did a very good job considering their youth. While they missed some assignments on the Raider blitz packages i attribute that more to Orton not taking charge of his team and not giving direction when it is needed. Orton needs to understand his line is young and they look to him for leadership and guidance. He's doing them no favors by not audibling or directing the line blocking when teams blitz.

RB's

Overall, not super happy but not super pissed either. Orton's lack of throwing down the field early simply told the Raider defense that they had nothing to fear and thus they started to put 8 in the box to force Orton to win the game. As predicted though, Moreno was much more valuable as a scat back and receiver out of the backfield. But both he and McGahee need to work on holding onto the ball. Turnovers are unacceptable even from the backs.

WR's

Lloyd still impressed which was good. And finally when Orton decided to look at other receivers we can see that Royal can be a valuable asset and even moreso with Decker who shined the brightest tonight. TE's were so-so but i think in the end Orange Julius will be more valuable as a receiving threat than Wells will be. Time will tell.



Defense:

Dline:

For the most part considering i was happy. But you can tell as the game wore on that they started to fail again. But part of that blame goes on the offense for just not giving them rest and not getting in the endzone enough. As predicted, the run stoppage is still a sore area and Fox and Elway need to quit farting around and get a REAL DT next year. When it all mattered tonight the Raiders ran at WILL on us when they needed too to kill the clock. That used to be US some time ago.

LB's

Miller is all that and a bag of chips. Still would have gone DT this past draft but i cant bitch about Miller as he has lived up to the hype, so far. Woodyard also at least showed he can tackle like DJ Williams so i was happy about that too. The pass rush was improved but lets face it, we were playing Jason Campbell and not Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. We shall see how "effective" they are against the elite.

Secondary:

Oddly enough this was the best part of the defense for me. Dawkins showed why i still consider him one of the best defensive players on the team. He was all over the place tonight and good thing as a few times McFadden was turning the corner and burning our LB's and DE's. So good thing he was there for run support. Same with Champ.



Summary:

Overall, we played much better on defense which in a way was expected because of Fox. However, i still think that Oakland isnt nearly as good as they were last year. They lost some key players this offseason and really we should of won this game if not for the silly penalities, turnovers, and bad play at times. Never the less, we are not going to win 8-10 games this year. Not unless something drastically improves but i dont see it happening. Also keep in mind most of our positive plays tonight happened because one of the most penalized teams in the NFL kept bailing us out in 3 and longs. In my opinion, Fox needs to sack up. Play Tebow for good or for bad so that when next years draft comes along we have a clear picture of what we need. Tonight was only the beginning for the Tebow fanatics so if you play the guy this year and he fails than all of them leave with him. If Tebow succeeds and improves as a player than at least we have something to build on. With Orton, we already know what we have.

In a perfect world Orton would still stink. His mechanics looked horrid, throwing off the back foot, happy feet in the pocket and errant accuracy, looked only at the primary receiver and didn't make progressive reads, even when given 5+ seconds. Our left side of the defensive line was pancaked every other play and were on their back. Our Oline looked bad in the run game but after looking at the tivo I see really poorly designed run plays, without any mis-direction and no pulling blockers. Franklin, Beadles and Kuper looked like second stringers out there. Champ, Dawk and maybe woodyard are the only tacklers we have, Goodman should be cut for missing the easy tackle leading to a converted 3rd down.

Overall this team is not improved from last year in any regard.

[smith49]

I gotta say I see a lot of the same. Yah we are I bit better defensively, but all in all I didn't see much improvement from last year. Orton is still the same as he was when he " got hurt" last year. Discouraging!!

[DenBronx]

where are the orton defenders? did they all leave the board?


just wondering their thoughts....not trying to mean to my fellow bronco fans.

but alot of the guys that have made countless excuses for orton are some of the same ones that bashed cutler and said he wasnt a franchise qb. after all thats who we gave up and traded away for orton.

whats done is done...but clearly denver needs to make a change.

[Watchthemiddle]

Wow we must have been watching the same game....my evaluation is pretty much the same.

As I have said all along...its Tebow time. He can also throw ints that lead to 63 yr field goals....or have the ball slip out of his hand....but with the game on the line he will make something happen. 3rd and goal at the 5, he will run if he can't find anyone open...KO took a sack.

This run game scares no one. This D does not either. Put in our Franchise QB now and use our first next year for a stud DL. Forget QB in the first....we need the gamer we have now on the field so he can show what he has. If not for Decker and spec teams, this KO led offense scored 13 points....at home...on MNF....in an orange infested stadium. PATHETIC!

[silkamilkamonico]

We need a QB in the first. At the moment we do not have a franchise QB.

And when Matt Willis is getting PT, you know we are in trouble at the WR position.

[zbeg]

even raider fans were chanting to put in tebow

Isn't that a point in favor of Orton?

I mean, we started a "send in Leaf" chant in 1998 at Mile High after he got benched. I'll let you figure out if we had the Chargers' best interests in mind.

[claymore]

I thought we looked alot better. I dont think we can win with this offense. We need a much better QB, and interior Offensive line.

[claymore]

where are the orton defenders? did they all leave the board?


just wondering their thoughts....not trying to mean to my fellow bronco fans.

but alot of the guys that have made countless excuses for orton are some of the same ones that bashed cutler and said he wasnt a franchise qb. after all thats who we gave up and traded away for orton.

whats done is done...but clearly denver needs to make a change.

I think Tebow would win a couple games, maybe even last night. But once there was film on him I think it would get embarrassing.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I used North's format for my take:

Offense:

Orton:

Where to really begin? Orton is who we all knew he was. I'm not going to beat a dead horse too much, but for an 8 year vet, he looked more like a rookie or second year player. It's obvious the same problems that have plagued him his whole career are still there. If he can't get a clean pocket to throw from, get a good passing lane, set his feet, and survey the defense for a full second or two, he's done - even if he can he's only 50/50. He locks on to his security blanket (Lloyd) too much. It's sad that on his best drive of the game, Lloyd didn't even play. It forced him to spread the ball around instead of trying to force it to Lloyd every play. Blitz Orton and you'll beat him.

Offensive Line:

They looked like what they are, young. They allowed a big, physical, veteran, and dirty Oakland D-line to push them around and they lost their cool early. Kuper was the biggest surprise because he is a vet. Everyone except Clady lost their cool and played angry - not in a good way. Oakland's D-line took a lot of cheap shots on them and while they didn't back down, it was obvious that it affected their play and they retaliated too often and played sloppy drawing a lot of laundry. They were dominated in the run game which is unacceptable. I don't blame them quite as much in pass protection because most of the time, we sent everyone into the pattern and had no one to pick up free blitzers. 5 guys just can't block 6 regularly.

RB's

It's really hard to judge the RB performance because there weren't a lot of holes to run through and we got down early which forced us to abandon the running game. I thought McDaniels was still calling the plays. Moreno looked good out of the backfield in space and picked up the blitz relatively well when he stayed in to block. McGahee looked slow - slower than a FB. Oakland's FB has more speed and burst than McGahee.

WR's

Too many costly drops, but Orton didn't do guys any favors. How many times were our WRs having to go to the ground or go up high for a catch? Very few passes were in stride but they had some problems separating from defenders at times. Decker was great. He needs to get more looks.


Defense:

Dline:

The injury to Doom early on seemed to take the air out of the D-line. It's pretty obvious that this line as new to playing together because they didn't key off of each other well. They were dominated at the point of attack as expected. Ayers is a piece of hot garbage Hunter is much better and that's not saying much. Ayers' one tackle was a facemask penalty and he got zero pressure in the passing game. Vickerson should've kept the extra 40 lbs he lost because he sucks. He's not any quicker or stronger vs the pass, and now he just gets pancaked vs the run all the time. Bunkley got doubled all night and Vickerson couldn't beat one on ones. He got owned by Cooper Carlisle most of the night, pathetic.

LB's

This group looked inexperienced and like they haven't played together much... go figure. There's some talent there, but when the D-line was getting handled, they were caught up in the wash too much. The Raiders beat Von's speed by throwing quick, short passes and it worked.

Secondary:

Dawkins is still playing with the intensity he did a decade ago and Champ is still a beast. Goodman is a decent CB, but he doesn't tackle well (which we knew). Moore mostly played deep middle so he wasn't involved much because the Raiders never really had to pass and when they did, it was typically 10 yards or less. Hard to rate their performance vs a team that only had to throw for 100 yards, and most of that was screens and 5 yd curls. The CBs played off a lot respecting Oakland's speed, but the Raiders rarely went down the field. The coverage was pretty good overall, though.

Summary:

Overall, we still have a lot of work to do on both sides of the ball. The defense did look somewhat improved and played hard, there's just a glaring lack of talent in the interior of the D-line. The scheme looked solid. Guys were in position to make plays, they just didn't make them and Oakland converted a lot of 3rd downs on broken tackles. I'm putting Orton on the bench at this point and starting Tebow to see what I have. Orton's performance didn't win him any points to keep his job in my eyes. Lot's of QBs love to get blitzed so they can burn the defense. Orton gets jittery and makes terrible plays vs the blitz.

We've got to commit to the run. Now is the time. It probably wouldn't have worked much better last night had we kept trying, but putting the ball in Orton's hands is a recipe for failure. You blitz him, he shuts down. I don't know how to fix the run game but we've got to attempt something. Cincy blitzes and is just as aggressive as Oakland. If we can't beat the blitz, we won't win many games this year. I had a lot of hope for this team this year, but we just aren't ready to really be a competitor yet. Maybe next year.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

We need a QB in the first. At the moment we do not have a franchise QB.

And when Matt Willis is getting PT, you know we are in trouble at the WR position.

Well, we did only dress 4... Good thing we have 6 DTs on the game-day roster - they played so well...

:coffee:

[red98]

I think Tebow would win a couple games, maybe even last night. But once there was film on him I think it would get embarrassing.

Last night was embarrassing anyway, without the excuse of starting a raw QB like Tebow.

Poor decisions, holding the ball too long, inaccurate throws, poor pocket awareness and dumb mistakes from the veteran that can "win now".

Oh well the improvements on paper led me to think maybe 5 wins and no Luck.

Now I don't see even one win.

[claymore]

Last night was embarrassing anyway, without the excuse of starting a raw QB like Tebow.

Poor decisions, holding the ball too long, inaccurate throws, poor pocket awareness and dumb mistakes from the veteran that can "win now".

Oh well the improvements on paper led me to think maybe 5 wins and no Luck.

Now I don't see even one win.

Orton sucks. Anyone who expected much more than what they saw last night had to high of expectations. Orton looked like Orton.

[Thnikkaman]

well....at least it wasnt 59-14 and if not for a 63 yard field goal who knows.

but our defense looks improved but still lots of work to do. at least were on our way.

and i dont see our run game being this bad for too long with fox. looks like a long year though.


remember we will have 4 new players next time we meet oakland. warren, thomas, dj and demaryius. maybe we kick the shit out of them in their house.

Remember that 52 yarder that Prater missed?

[SOCALORADO.]

Offense.
Orton sucks. But everyone already knew this.
OLine sucked. I am giving Franklin a pass, i think he will be good, but he struggled.
RBs suck. For the last time, Moreno sucks. Granted the oline wasnt exactly helping, but Moreno is just a bust. No speed, no vision, and he fumbles. Hes a spaz.
WRs Lloyd is good. Just flat out good. Decker could be a solid #2. Royal needs a big time QB to be good....like Cutler.
Overall, this offense is thin and not going to scare anyone.
Defense.
i believe i made some unflattering comments about the GRAND CANYON sized hole that would be available for skipping through in the defensive line if DEN didnt draft some DTs. You can re-name it "The black Hole" cause the raiders own it! LOL!
DTs SUCK. Bad, REAL BAD.
Joe Mays sucks. He takes horrible angles, and is generally clueless.
Von Miller looks like a veteran, and thats good for him, but when your rookies are your best players, YOU SUCK. Rahim Moore, Champ, and Miller played outstanding. The rest were mediocre at best, and are nothing more than 3rd string players.
Doom, is becoming a big injury issue.
Defense is extremely thin and not going to scare anyone.

Summary.
When you cant beat a team that commits a penalty literally every other play......
You SUCK.

[red98]

Orton sucks. Anyone who expected much more than what they saw last night had to high of expectations. Orton looked like Orton.


I didn't expect anymore out of Orton. I did expect a John Fox team to maybe run block a little as well as scheme up a decent defensive effort.

Wasn't expecting 10 penalties either, always a sign of poor coaching.

Was also expecting that punts would be kicked and not blocked.

Oh well.

Suck4luck!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Remember that 52 yarder that Prater missed?

It was 56, but yeah I remember.

[Dreadnought]

We need a QB in the first. At the moment we do not have a franchise QB.

And when Matt Willis is getting PT, you know we are in trouble at the WR position.

We have too many other problems. No way can we afford to waste even more time picking a QB in the 1st. If we end up with the first pick I pray we are smart enough to swindle some other bunch of suckers out of a passle of picks - which we then use to fix the G-ddamned defensive line. From then we can survey the field for a RB.

I think its academic, though. We'll win about 5 games, and there will be worse teams than that.

Now, on a positive note - we were more competitive than what McD fielded last year. We got crushed on the ground by what may be the best running game in football. We knew it was our weakness going in, so I wasn't shocked. Brandon Lloyd's injury improved Orton's play some, because it broke his target lock and improved his performance. Ironic, as Lloyd himself played well and can't be faulted for it. Decker looks really solid, making McD 1 for however many in drafting. Royal can still play when somebody remembers he's on the field. Moreno is a much better receiver than RB - at which job I think he utterly sucks. As in, bring back Selvin Young suckage. I liked Von Miller a lot, and in fact had few complaints about the back 7

Orton drives me crazy; I really can't stand watching him play football anymore. The prospect of more Orton caused me to again opt out of the Sunday Ticket this year in favor of paying extra down on some outstanding credit card bills. If/when that changes I'll hit the bars :lol:

PS - I saw some people mentioning Ayers...was he there last night? I couldn't be sure

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I didn't expect anymore out of Orton. I did expect a John Fox team to maybe run block a little as well as scheme up a decent defensive effort.

Wasn't expecting 10 penalties either, always a sign of poor coaching.

Was also expecting that punts would be kicked and not blocked.

Oh well.

Suck4luck!

I don't think the penalties were poor coaching as much as they were young O-linemen who let the Raiders constant cheap shots and extra-curricular activities behind the play get under their skin. They didn't act like a veteran group because, well, they aren't.

[claymore]

I didn't expect anymore out of Orton. I did expect a John Fox team to maybe run block a little as well as scheme up a decent defensive effort.

Wasn't expecting 10 penalties either, always a sign of poor coaching.

Was also expecting that punts would be kicked and not blocked.

Oh well.

Suck4luck!

We are a team devoid of talent and We need to look at getting a new offense/possibly another OC.

As for the penalties, with all the new coaches, and players Im not suprised. Its the reason Oakland continuously has issues. They never have continuity.

[Thnikkaman]

Am I the only one who doesn't have faith in John Fox to make a QB change if it gets to that point - which in my opinion it already is...?

If Orton doesn't impress by week 5 can we possibly justify keeping him in? The boos will become more and more relentless.

No, but I'm one of those that didn't like the John Fox hiring.

[vettesplus]

all i will say is "this ones for luck"

[Jsteve01]

Game summary....

Both interior lines for the Broncos were atrocious. Completely embarrassing. If we spend four picks on guards and defensive tackles next year, I'll be completely fine with it. Once again we're looking at an interior line that's tailored to the zone and continues to try and assert themselves in the power game. It needs to click for Franklin soon or I'd prefer to see him at guard.

I still don't know what to think about our D line because Warren and Thomas are hurt. Having those two over McBean and Unrein would have to help. Pat Williams anyone?

[Northman]

It's sad that on his best drive of the game, Lloyd didn't even play. It forced him to spread the ball around instead of trying to force it to Lloyd every play. Blitz Orton and you'll beat him.

Your entire post was great but i wanted to expand a couple of your points. This was a great example of what i see from Orton. Take out his biggest threat and it forces him to look elsewhere. But it shouldnt come to that and it shouldnt take Orton a quarter and a half to finally warm up to throwing downfield. Orton needs to realize he needs to get all the receivers involved from the getgo and start fast instead of always playing from behind.


Moreno looked good out of the backfield in space and picked up the blitz relatively well when he stayed in to block.

Got to hand it too Knowsho, on that block early in the game he caught the Raider LB off guard and it surprised him as he knocked him almost back on his ass. I was pleasantly surprised to see Moreno do that.


The Raiders beat Von's speed by throwing quick, short passes and it worked.

Yea, i got to kind of hand it too Hue Jackson. That wishbone early in the game threw me off but i knew exactly why he was doing it. That was a guy who was paying attention to us in the preseason because he was clearly looking to exploit the speed of Doom and Miller and it worked.

[LordTrychon]

I started scanning when I got to the part about the Oline being pretty good, but Orton did a bad job of leading them.

But I still caught how the RBs were pretty good, but Orton needs to make things easier for them.

Orton had a bad game, as did nearly everyone else on O... but Orton's not to blame for everything else on O.

[BroncoStud]

Orton sucks. Anyone who expected much more than what they saw last night had to high of expectations. Orton looked like Orton.

Meanwhile in Chicago...

[claymore]

Meanwhile in Chicago...

No shit. :tsk:

[Northman]

I started scanning when I got to the part about the Oline being pretty good, but Orton did a bad job of leading them.

But I still caught how the RBs were pretty good, but Orton needs to make things easier for them.

Orton had a bad game, as did nearly everyone else on O... but Orton's not to blame for everything else on O.

The QB position is the most important one on offense. You need to be a playmaker and a leader. Especially with younger guys on the team who need a field general to lead them. If you cant instill fear into the opposing defense with a deepball threat it just makes it that much harder on everything else on offense. I pointed out the flaws of everything else on offense, but it all still ties to one guy who cant make plays when the team needs him too.

[Dzone]

The good news is that we got Fox cheap. He was a lot less expensive than other HC candidates last winter. We should feel good about the fact that hiring Fox saved us money.

[Dzone]

Beadles, Walton and Kuper: Worst in the NFL
Kyle Orton: Worst in the NFL

[BroncoStud]

The good news is that we got Fox cheap. He was a lot less expensive than other HC candidates last winter. We should feel good about the fact that hiring Fox saved us money.

There's a reason he was cheap. It has a lot to do with competition and free market capitalism.

[Mike]

I started scanning when I got to the part about the Oline being pretty good, but Orton did a bad job of leading them.

But I still caught how the RBs were pretty good, but Orton needs to make things easier for them.

Orton had a bad game, as did nearly everyone else on O... but Orton's not to blame for everything else on O.

Orton is nowhere near the only problem on that offense. But he is a big part of it.

As an aside, as I was watching the game last night all I could think was that you can't teach heart, desire, and will. Orton displayed none of that. Lots of problems and errors in almost all aspects of the game last night, but the truth is that Denver should have won this game, but Orton didn't deliver. He is incapable of delivering. I cannot take another season of watching this bum QB my team.

[Slick]

Not you too lt. Oh man.

Orton will continue to see defenses like that until he proves he can make them pay for stacking the box or blitzing, or both. The running game can't ever open up under conditions like that when the defense knows Orton will either take a sack, dump it off, or simply fumble the ball.


Orton doesn't deserve any excuses for his play last night. Its only one game but That game is on him.

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[claymore]

Orton is nowhere near the only problem on that offense. But he is a big part of it.

As an aside, as I was watching the game last night all I could think was that you can't teach heart, desire, and will. Orton displayed none of that. Lots of problems and errors in almost all aspects of the game last night, but the truth is that Denver should have won this game, but Orton didn't deliver. He is incapable of delivering. I cannot take another season of watching this bum QB my team.

Me either!

[Dzone]

How many games did Fox win last year? He looks to be even worse this year.

How did we only lose by 3 points???? We were getting our ass kicked all night long

[TXBRONC]

My observations. The Raiders have a very good defense. The strength of which is the front line. So it's not a surprise we struggled to run the ball. We don't have a stud buffalo in the backfield like Darren McFadden. We have two running backs that will be adequate but against an elite defense they will struggle. It seemed to me that the Raiders plan was stop out running game and put the game in Orton's hands. Force Orton and his offense into a lot 3rd and longs and pin your ears back and get after get after his ass. He's not a nimble quarterback that can get away from pressure consistently. It's good a good recipe for winning.

I thought our defense did ok not great considering the precarious position the offense put them by turning the ball over and failing to convert 3rd downs. It not that Campbell lit us up. He only had 105 yards passing for the entire game. They won the t.o.p. battle by five minutes exactly.

I don't what Fox will do if Orton and the offense continue to struggle and I'm not about to say he wont do anything based off of what happened in Carolina. My best guess is that if Orton continues to struggle we will see a quarterback change and it probably will be Tebow. Why because they need to see if he's worth further effort to develop. If they are not convince it will makes it easier to justify drafting a quarterback next year.

[Traveler]

I manned-up last night and watched the entire game last night till 2:00 EST.

I'll use North's format for my take too:

Offense:

Orton:

While Orton's inability to improvise is quite evident, I can't fault him too much for what happened last night. The OAK defensive line was manhandling our interior all night. Shame to admit I wished we had a D-Line like that, but without the penalties. The cliche great players make great plays when you need them will never apply to Kyle.

Offensive Line:

The blueprint to beating them was laid out again last night. Try as they might, the OL still can't match up physically with big hosses like OAK, BAL, or PIT. Seymour rag-dolled Beadles easily and often last night. Walton and even Kuper got walked back into the QB with much regularity. Can't fault Clady for the sack on Orton when they ran a stunt. Tommy Kelly took both Walton and Beadles out, leaving a huge gap up the middle. Still early in the season, but the team might have to draft another OLG. Franklin is a work in progress and I'm anxious to see how he is playing later in the season.

I did like the fact they never backed down, but as HP56 stated, Oakland's D-line took a lot of cheap shots on them and it was obvious that it affected their play.


RB's:

Not much to say here. OAK negated the running game and made us one dimensional. Can't run if there are no running lanes. I would start McGahee for the remainder of the season and use Moreno as the third down back. Got a little frustrated last night with Knowshon reverting back to taking himself out of the game because he was winded.

Receivers:

TE's were used quite effectively early in the game. Lloyd was money, but they need to get Royal more involved. Decker might be earning more playing time.

Defense:

D-Line:

Weren't able to use Doom & Miller's strengths as pass rushers because OAK was running the ball so well. Almost at will between the tackles and outside. The ends were getting pinched inside when OAK wanted to run outside. Ayers was a non-factor again. Dumervil's injury didn't help. Our the DT's repeatedly got blown of the ball. The D-line better become a higher priority this offseason.

LB's:

This is the area I focused on much of the night. OAK O-Line was able to reach the second level of the defense much of the night. MLB Mays got exposed last night. I can count at least seven times last night when an O-Lineman or fullback completly neutralized him. Dilfer got it right we he said the LB'S showed no ability to shed blockers. Mays also repeatedly took bad angles or shot the wrong gap quite frequently.


Secondary:

Dawkins and Champ had great games. But it's not a good sign when your safeties and corners account for the majority of your tackles in the run game.


Summary:

We have quite a rebuilding effort ahead of us. The defense is improved, but we still have to shore up our most glaring need at DT. The entire front line with the exception of Dumervil and Bunkley are second stringers and need to replaced. I'm willing to wait and see where we are after our bye week, but if we have five losses by that time, it really makes no sense to keep Orton as the starter.

As I said earlier, we are rebuilding and it's going to take sometime before we can match up talent wise with the rest of the division. Let Tebow learn under fire to see what type of QB he will eventually become.

[tomjonesrocks]

i actually thought our rookies were the only bright spot. im still happy with miller, moore ect. i know we need a couple of stud dts but...this team wasnt going anywhere this year anyway.

I am DEFINITELY not happy with Franklin out there. Classic example of the mistakes this team has made overthinking the draft. Where there could have been DeShaun, there was Royal. Where there could have been Dez, there was DT. Etc., etc., etc. This team should have taken a DT where they took Franklin and picked up a much easier to find in FA OT if they had to.

[Ravage!!!]

I think we are judging Franklin, a rookie, pretty harshly for his first NFL game against a pretty stout DL... against one of Denver's biggest rivals. I didn't see things that were SO bad as to think he was a bad pick, at all. Sure he had some struggles, but there were other times we gave Orton 5 seconds to throw the ball and he couldn't find an open guy.

Our running backs are just NOT good. Moreno, just doesn't have the speed out of the backfield to scare anyone as a runner. He's much better as a receiver if he's lined up on a LB.

Orton just bores me. He showed again, why, last night. You just do NO have confidence in him leading the team to victory. I find myself cheering as if we actually accomplished something, just for getting a first down! Whoo Hoooooo! :elefant:

I think North's evaluation was spot on with my view. Great post North :beer:

[tomjonesrocks]

Orton drives me crazy; I really can't stand watching him play football anymore. The prospect of more Orton caused me to again opt out of the Sunday Ticket this year in favor of paying extra down on some outstanding credit card bills. If/when that changes I'll hit the bars :lol:

Man, I tried SO hard to do the same. But when I went to cancel my autorenewal they kept bargaining down the price and bargaining and bargaining. When I still wanted to cancel--the rep sent be back into the queue to start all over again with another rep! Eventually the second rep I talked to wore me down and I agreed to keep it for $109 for the season.

So far even that doesn't look like a good price...

[BigDaddyBronco]

Our OLine is weak, our DLine is weak, our QB sucks. Fix these things and we are a good team again. I hope EFX shares this philosophy or they are part of the problem.

Maybe our OLine is still gelling and getting experience or maybe they suck. Clady hasn't been the same since he was injured, but he is still the best we have. Franklin is promising, we'll see. Both Beadles and Walton better step up, or they should get replaced. Kuper struggled and hasn't looked as good as he was when they had Nalen, Harris, etc. If he has to be the strength on the right side, he will struggle. With Shanny's lines they struggled with big DT's, but they made up for it with speed and great technique, now we have neither.

On the Dline, you can get better with the pass rush, but if you don't have quality cloggers in the middle they can just run the ball and control the clock. If you can get a lead and control the clock and make the other team play catch-up, then our style of defense is great. I just don't see that happening with this team.

At QB we need a change. Orton doesn't have a clutch bone in his body. He can make some good throws, is smart at times for throwing it away when things aren't there, but he crumbles under pressure. It's not all his fault, but he just isn't the guy who can will things to happen. I'll take Tebow with all his faults any day over Orton, but we probably will not see it until week 10. I would love them to give Tebow half a season to see if he can do it, but I'm worried that it will not happen.

[Dreadnought]

Man, I tried SO hard to do the same. But when I went to cancel my autorenewal they kept bargaining down the price and bargaining and bargaining. When I still wanted to cancel--the rep sent be back into the queue to start all over again with another rep! Eventually the second rep I talked to wore me down and I agreed to keep it for $109 for the season.

So far even that doesn't look like a good price...

They were able to do that to me after I cancelled due to McD's imbecility in 2009. I didn't fall for it in 2010 though. I was sadder, wiser, and $300 poorer

[BroncoJoe]

I think we are judging Franklin, a rookie, pretty harshly for his first NFL game against a pretty stout DL... against one of Denver's biggest rivals. I didn't see things that were SO bad as to think he was a bad pick, at all. Sure he had some struggles, but there were other times we gave Orton 5 seconds to throw the ball and he couldn't find an open guy.

Our running backs are just NOT good. Moreno, just doesn't have the speed out of the backfield to scare anyone as a runner. He's much better as a receiver if he's lined up on a LB.

Orton just bores me. He showed again, why, last night. You just do NO have confidence in him leading the team to victory. I find myself cheering as if we actually accomplished something, just for getting a first down! Whoo Hoooooo! :elefant:

I think North's evaluation was spot on with my view. Great post North :beer:

Moreno's biggest problem is he's too fast. What I mean is he doesn't give the line time to open the holes (not that that would have happened last night). He's full speed ahead as soon as he gets the ball. Zero patience.

[Dzone]

That team was every bit as bad as 2010.
Oh, guess what? We are ranked 31st against the run.
It could have been Mchoodie in a John Fox disguise. Same damn shit

[Mike]

They were able to do that to me after I cancelled due to McD's imbecility in 2009. I didn't fall for it in 2010 though. I was sadder, wiser, and $300 poorer

Rid yourself of cable/sat altogether and save yourself even more. I did, and while occasionally I miss something; Netflix streaming, Hulu, over the air, the library have been more than sufficient. Plus I have started watching less tv and spending more time with the wife and kid...which is worth more than the money savings.

[Cugel]

Back in April I spent much of my time complaining that EFX screwed up big-time by not drafting Marcel Dareus. Last night you got to see why I was right! :coffee:

The Broncos off-season plan involved getting a pass-rushing OLB in Miller and ignoring DT in the draft. Then they were going to go into FA and sign a veteran.

Well there's a reason why the Patriots didn't keep Ty Warren after 2 consecutive season ending injuries. You just can't expect to sign a 30 yrs old veteran DT and have him come in and anchor your DL for any length of time. It just doesn't work.

This team was simply pushed around on both the offensive and defensive lines. Forget Kyle Orton, Aaron Rogers couldn't have won that game with the defense stuffing Walton, Beadles and Kuper into the backfield on every play! Franklin gets a pass as a raw rookie, but why in hell didn't they make a major effort to re-sign Ryan Harris instead of throwing $4 million away on a worthless Ty Warren?

Then they wouldn't need to throw Franklin out there to the wolves.

Overall, this team isn't one or two players away they are perhaps 3 OL and 4 DTs away from being competitive.

And they need a Franchise QB. I personally don't think that Tebow is the answer, but the way things are going, it looks like we're going to find out this season. :coffee:

[JaxBroncoGirl]

A veteran you can't unload sitting the bench behind either Quinn or Tebow...a management and ownership embarrassment! Losing a game like like this to Raider Nation in your own yard with both Tebow and Quinn on the bench because you refuse to admit you messed up. That's the Broncos. I thought bringing in Elway was supposed to fix all that ! John Fox stuck with Delhomme too long and eventually got fired. Who knows..maybe this is what it takes to get Tebow in !!! He is his own running game after all !!!

This is what football fans are saying. Why continue down this path?

[BigDaddyBronco]

Dareus would have been a step in the right direction. I love Von Miller, but his best strength is as a pass rusher. How was he last night? Oh yea, he didn't get much pass rush because they ran the ball most of the night or had short passes where they didn't have the time to get much pass rush. Von Miller will be a good player, hoperfully for a long time, but it will not matter if we can't stop the run.

[Dzone]

Eric Studesville should have been given a chance. No way would he be any worse than what we have in Fox.

[Cugel]

Honestly, I don't think Tebow would have done even as well as Orton, because the Raiders would have blitzed him on ever play. With about 8 guys.

The one thing Orton CAN do well is throw short timing passes and play-action. He just can't make anything happen when his OL is being pushed back into his face.

Well, Tebow might be able to run around and make things happen, but he can't throw a timing pattern to save his life.

Before the game I was willing to predict we wouldn't see Tebow this season. Now I'm not so sure.

About game 6 or 7 if things go like this I think Fox will give up on Orton and throw Tebow in to see if he can do anything. Personally, I don't think he can, but WTH do we have to lose?

This team isn't going anywhere and they need to decide whether to use their top 10 draft pick on a QB next season.

Look at what happened with Carolina now that they have Cam Newton. They suddenly go from worst team in the league to exciting to watch!

[Cugel]

Dareus would have been a step in the right direction. I love Von Miller, but his best strength is as a pass rusher. How was he last night? Oh yea, he didn't get much pass rush because they ran the ball most of the night or had short passes where they didn't have the time to get much pass rush. Von Miller will be a good player, hoperfully for a long time, but it will not matter if we can't stop the run.

You're right. I've been dreading this exact thing ever since April (hence my sig picture of Jamaal Charles). I've had that horrible mental image of the Raiders and Chiefs running right up the middle of the Broncos defense all off-season.

Remember that it takes a couple of years for a DT to learn to play in this league, so putting off drafting one for another season just delays the Broncos return to respectability for another year.

The one play from last night that sealed the deal was the 3rd and 13 conversion where the Raiders pinned Miller and Doom to the outside, knocked Vickerson and Bunkley on their asses and ran up the middle for 15 yards.

That one play perfectly illustrated that it doesn't matter if you have a bunch of edge rushers in this league if teams can run right at the middle of your defense.

It's absolutely hopeless if everybody in the building KNOWS you are going to run the ball, the defense is lined up to stop you , and you just pound it up there for first downs and run out the clock, which the Raiders did last night.

If the Raiders didn't commit all those stupid penalties they could have scored 50 points --- again. :coffee:

[rationalfan]

i kinda like this thread; some real discussion here - not just a stream of overreaction.

my thoughts on the game:

orton wasn't as bad as people will believe. the guy stayed in the pocket despite getting hammered all night long (i didn't see the number of times he was hit, but it has to be 10 or more). in the past, orton would shrivel up after getting hit, especially toward the end of a game. not last night. he played best in the fourth quarter with a consistent blitz still on him. he did lock on to lloyd much of the game, but, as others have wrote, once he checked beyond lloyd he found other receivers.

some will complain he didn't pass downfield. but he couldn't. with the blitz or penetration from oakland's dline, he didn't have the time.

as for tebow, keep him on the bench. tebow would have had some nice runs escaping the blitz and the crowd would have been stoked about that. but the guy would have failed in the pocket. he holds the ball too long. can't do that against a consistent pass rush.

moreno kind of impressed me. i wasn't amazed. but he looked better than he ever has.

finally, i see why there's so much decker love on the board. good hands, great punt return with his deceptive speed (short strider).

fells isn't the answer at tight end. he lumbers too much.

franklin needs help on the obvious pass downs.

the entire team needs to wear tactified gloves. i know they're illegal. i don't care.

where was von miller? he had some nice pressure and a couple good tackles behind the line, but he didn't look like a game changer.

oakland is a better team right now. that might change in ten days, but right now oakland is more physical and, most importantly, they execute better than the broncos do. in my mind, the biggest problem from last night was how passive the broncos played in the first half - especially on offense. they looked like a team that missed the offseason - timing was off in the passing game, the oline was inconsistent, defense confused by certain formations. they need coaching, but i do think the right staff is on hand to help them.

i also expect this team to get better. the schemes will be reinforced. the defense will jell. and orton will improve - for whatever reason, orton starts his seasons slow, he'll pick up his game by week three.

overall i'm encouraged. the broncos are a better team than they were 12 months ago. but so are the raiders.

[Nomad]

Dareus would have been a step in the right direction. I love Von Miller, but his best strength is as a pass rusher. How was he last night? Oh yea, he didn't get much pass rush because they ran the ball most of the night or had short passes where they didn't have the time to get much pass rush. Von Miller will be a good player, hoperfully for a long time, but it will not matter if we can't stop the run.

He's almost too fast for his own good, but he is a rookie so he gets some leash. But you know where I stand on fixing the defense from the inside out.

We knew this game would be a good gauging factor of where this team is at.....sadly the results are what we figured. With this defense we have, we need an offense that can score lots of points quick so other teams need to resort to the pass to catch up and our pass rush becomes effective. Yeah, I know we're not Manning & the Colts. Until then, the interior of the defense is gonna get owned even by weak teams.

[Cugel]

He's almost too fast for his own good, but he is a rookie so he gets some leash. But you know where I stand on fixing the defense from the inside out.

We knew this game would be a good gauging factor of where this team is at.....sadly the results are what we figured. With this defense we have, we need an offense that can score lots of points quick so other teams need to resort to the pass to catch up and our pass rush becomes effective. Yeah, I know we're not Manning & the Colts. Until then, the interior of the defense is gonna get owned even by weak teams.

You're right. There's just no point pretending when you get physically beaten on both sides of the ball by a team that frankly is mediocre.

The Raiders don't have a QB to lead them anywhere and aren't going to win the division despite what they said on TV all night.

They DO however have a sound OL and DL. And a good RB in McFadden. But, virtually every really GOOD team in the NFL has that. And the great ones have Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees or Tom Brady in addition to those sound offensive and defensive lines.

That puts them light years ahead of the Broncos unfortunately. :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

Everyone that sees Von play compares him to DT or LT. You can't tell me that the pass rushing presence of one of those two type of players is not MUCH more valuable in the NFL than a DT. The team took the best defensive player on the draft board, and they got a winner out of him. The NFL is made of passing and getting TO the passer. Getting Von Miller was the right draft pick if he continues to show what he's already shown as a rookie.

We can address the DT spot later, but you don't simply pass on a guy like Miller when rushing the passer is SOOOO crucial in the NFL.

[Cugel]

moreno kind of impressed me. i wasn't amazed. but he looked better than he ever has.

What? :coffee:

Exactly what impressed you about Knowshon Moreno? That he had a key fumble that turned the momentum of the game? That he couldn't run the ball at all? That he hurt his leg again and will probably miss more games?

Just ask yourself: Brian Orakpo or Knowshon Moreno?

I don't think anything more needs to be said. :coffee:

[Cugel]

Everyone that sees Von play compares him to DT or LT. You can't tell me that the pass rushing presence of one of those two type of players is not MUCH more valuable in the NFL than a DT. The team took the best defensive player on the draft board, and they got a winner out of him. The NFL is made of passing and getting TO the passer. Getting Von Miller was the right draft pick if he continues to show what he's already shown as a rookie.

We can address the DT spot later, but you don't simply pass on a guy like Miller when rushing the passer is SOOOO crucial in the NFL.

I disagree totally and completely. What you saw last night is that defense starts with the INTERIOR of the DL and that without elite DTs you can neither stuff the run NOR rush the passer effectively.

The 3rd and 13 draw play for 15 yards is a perfect illustration of why.

Even Tom Brady can't be effective if there's a pass rush up the middle in his face.

But, how do you get an elite pass-rushing DT? There's only 1 way: draft him. And it usually takes a top 10 draft pick because of Bill Parcells' "Big Planet Theory."

There are only so many guys big enough and athletic enough to be elite DTs or LTs in the NFL and if you're in a position to draft one, and you don't already have those players then you better take it. Period.

There are just a LOT fewer men who are 6'6" 290 and quick and athletic than 6'2" 245 and quick and athletic. Which means there are a lot fewer elite DTs in the draft than elite LBs. Where was Clay Mathews drafted? Around #22. There are LBs who slip to the 2nd round all the time who turn out to be all-pros. Because there are just more men that size there are more elite ones, which in turn means there's more chance for one to fall in the draft.

Dareus wouldn't be the flashy pick, but I don't see him getting pushed out of the way like a rag doll like the Broncos DL.

Remember that with the Chiefs and Raiders there are 4 games every year against teams that excel at running the ball.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Everyone that sees Von play compares him to DT or LT. You can't tell me that the pass rushing presence of one of those two type of players is not MUCH more valuable in the NFL than a DT. The team took the best defensive player on the draft board, and they got a winner out of him. The NFL is made of passing and getting TO the passer. Getting Von Miller was the right draft pick if he continues to show what he's already shown as a rookie.

We can address the DT spot later, but you don't simply pass on a guy like Miller when rushing the passer is SOOOO crucial in the NFL.
Sure rushing the passer is huge. But when teams don't have to rely on medium to long passes to beat you a traditional pass rush doesn't help that much. Yes an explosive edge rusher is more valuable than a DT, but I just don't see Von Miller having a dramatic effect unless the Broncos have a lead or they play a team that needs to get the ball down the field for their offense to work. How effective will Miller be against the Patriots or Steelers? They can game plan his ass all day. It is hard as shit to game plan against what the Raiders DLine did to our OLine last night. We couldn't run, Orton only had a decent pocket about half the snaps. No one on the Raiders defense is in the calibur of Doom or Von as an edge rusher, maybe Wimbley is close. Didn't matter.

[SOCALORADO.]

Everyone that sees Von play compares him to DT or LT. You can't tell me that the pass rushing presence of one of those two type of players is not MUCH more valuable in the NFL than a DT. The team took the best defensive player on the draft board, and they got a winner out of him. The NFL is made of passing and getting TO the passer. Getting Von Miller was the right draft pick if he continues to show what he's already shown as a rookie.

We can address the DT spot later, but you don't simply pass on a guy like Miller when rushing the passer is SOOOO crucial in the NFL.

Sorry, dude. I LOVE Von Miller, and think he will be great, but nothing illustrates DENs biggest issue more than when both Von and Doom were rushing from both outside positions on 3rd and 13, and they both met at the QB who was just smiling at them cause he had already handed off to McFadden who was galloping through the GRAND CANYON sized hole for a 1st down.
OAK did this ALL NIGHT. Pathetic.
Dareus would have made a difference.
Again, i dont really care, i like Von, and hopefully next year they get a solid couple DTs.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Sorry, dude. I LOVE Von Miller, and think he will be great, but nothing illustrates DENs biggest issue more than when both Von and Doom were rushing from both outside positions on 3rd and 13, and they both met at the QB who was just smiling at them cause he had already handed off to McFadden who was galloping through the GRAND CANYON sized hole for a 1st down.
OAK did this ALL NIGHT. Pathetic.
Dareus would have made a difference.
Again, i dont really care, i like Von, and hopefully next year they get a solid couple DTs.

Problem is that it helps if you have a top 10 pick to get the cream of the crop. We'll probably need that pick for a QB.

We could have had Dareus this year, a 1st round QB next year, another DT or DE's as well, and by Dareus third year the QB has some experience and we are ready to contend. When we get the new QB next year, we will still have a gaping hole in the middle of the defense.

[arapaho2]

I started scanning when I got to the part about the Oline being pretty good, but Orton did a bad job of leading them.

But I still caught how the RBs were pretty good, but Orton needs to make things easier for them.

Orton had a bad game, as did nearly everyone else on O... but Orton's not to blame for everything else on O.


i would disagree....if orton had the ability to extend a play in the pocket instead of feignting at the first sign of pressure, or in fact just slide in the pocket to buy time...and then pick apart a defense who is stacking the box apart to stop the run and keep things tight in front of them

we'd see a whole other ball game, as it is orton cant, the defense doesnt respect his passing enough to ease up on the pressure and blitzing and therfore the run game suffers

its no coincedence why the broncos have been one of the worst running teams and redzone scoreing teams since orton came here

[PAINTERDAVE]

well....at least it wasnt 59-14 and if not for a 63 yard field goal who knows.

but our defense looks improved but still lots of work to do. at least were on our way.

and i dont see our run game being this bad for too long with fox. looks like a long year though.


remember we will have 4 new players next time we meet oakland. warren, thomas, dj and demaryius. maybe we kick the shit out of them in their house.

Not if Orton is under center....

You forgot the 5th player..

Tebow

[rationalfan]

What? :coffee:

Exactly what impressed you about Knowshon Moreno? That he had a key fumble that turned the momentum of the game? That he couldn't run the ball at all? That he hurt his leg again and will probably miss more games?

Just ask yourself: Brian Orakpo or Knowshon Moreno?

I don't think anything more needs to be said. :coffee:

first, you have to turn off that revisionist fantasy about orakpo vs. moreno. it didn't happen. wishing for a redo on draft history only obscures the reality that you have to work with what's on the team RIGHT NOW.

as for why i was encouraged by moreno: he looked more fleet of foot, had better control of his cutbacks/jukes, appeared to see the field better, once he got past the line (not his fault much of the time) he was able to make plays in open space (ditto on his receptions).

plainly: moreno looked better, and did it against a team with a very good run defense. i don't care about stats, i'm using the eyeball test.

also, drop the expectations of moreno as a first round pick. he was drafted too high. he'll never be an all pro. he'll never be a superstar. but he can improve. that's what i saw last night, improvement.

[Ravage!!!]

Guys, I'm not saying that DT and the DL isn't a problem. I'm saying that EVERY team in the NFL needs a pass rush, a GOOD pass rush.. to be contenders. There is SOOO much more you can do with Von Miller (in the long run) than you can with a DT. There is NOT a guy that compares to the likes of LT and DT every year in the draft, and we certainly have NEVER had that kind of athlete at LB rushing the passer. You just don't pass on that.

Of course right now the offenses are going to eat us up. But when you have a player like VM to take, you take him and NEVER look back. KC's defense completely transformed after they got Derrick Thomas, and was a force to be dealt with throughout his career.

There is not a DT that you would EVER take over a Derrick Thomas or Lawrence Taylor, and Von Miller has all the make up to be that kind of player for us.

Thats why I think it was very smart for Denver to take Von Miller when we had the chance. Dareus would NEVER be as disrupting, or a player that the offenses had to deal with like Miller is going to be. Thats HUGE in the long run.

[SOCALORADO.]

Guys, I'm not saying that DT and the DL isn't a problem. I'm saying that EVERY team in the NFL needs a pass rush, a GOOD pass rush.. to be contenders. There is SOOO much more you can do with Von Miller (in the long run) than you can with a DT. There is NOT a guy that compares to the likes of LT and DT every year in the draft, and we certainly have NEVER had that kind of athlete at LB rushing the passer. You just don't pass on that.

Of course right now the offenses are going to eat us up. But when you have a player like VM to take, you take him and NEVER look back. KC's defense completely transformed after they got Derrick Thomas, and was a force to be dealt with throughout his career.

There is not a DT that you would EVER take over a Derrick Thomas or Lawrence Taylor, and Von Miller has all the make up to be that kind of player for us.

Thats why I think it was very smart for Denver to take Von Miller when we had the chance. Dareus would NEVER be as disrupting, or a player that the offenses had to deal with like Miller is going to be. Thats HUGE in the long run.

Actually i believe that to do more with Von, DEN needs some good DTs too.
He becomes very 1 dimensional without solid D-line help.
I like him. I do. And i think he will be very good down the road, however, the issue was never at SAM or DE in DEN, it is at DT. And its obvious.
Dareus can be just as disruptive and cause just as many fumbles and be just as versatile as Von. Just a different position.
But hey! Lets get both!!

[rationalfan]

Guys, I'm not saying that DT and the DL isn't a problem. I'm saying that EVERY team in the NFL needs a pass rush, a GOOD pass rush.. to be contenders. There is SOOO much more you can do with Von Miller (in the long run) than you can with a DT. There is NOT a guy that compares to the likes of LT and DT every year in the draft, and we certainly have NEVER had that kind of athlete at LB rushing the passer. You just don't pass on that.

Of course right now the offenses are going to eat us up. But when you have a player like VM to take, you take him and NEVER look back. KC's defense completely transformed after they got Derrick Thomas, and was a force to be dealt with throughout his career.

There is not a DT that you would EVER take over a Derrick Thomas or Lawrence Taylor, and Von Miller has all the make up to be that kind of player for us.

Thats why I think it was very smart for Denver to take Von Miller when we had the chance. Dareus would NEVER be as disrupting, or a player that the offenses had to deal with like Miller is going to be. Thats HUGE in the long run.


don't even argue. this is just a case of the grass is greener on the other side. some football fans will never be happy with what they have. it's life.

[TXBRONC]

i kinda like this thread; some real discussion here - not just a stream of overreaction.

my thoughts on the game:

orton wasn't as bad as people will believe. the guy stayed in the pocket despite getting hammered all night long (i didn't see the number of times he was hit, but it has to be 10 or more). in the past, orton would shrivel up after getting hit, especially toward the end of a game. not last night. he played best in the fourth quarter with a consistent blitz still on him. he did lock on to lloyd much of the game, but, as others have wrote, once he checked beyond lloyd he found other receivers.

some will complain he didn't pass downfield. but he couldn't. with the blitz or penetration from oakland's dline, he didn't have the time.

as for tebow, keep him on the bench. tebow would have had some nice runs escaping the blitz and the crowd would have been stoked about that. but the guy would have failed in the pocket. he holds the ball too long. can't do that against a consistent pass rush.

moreno kind of impressed me. i wasn't amazed. but he looked better than he ever has.

finally, i see why there's so much decker love on the board. good hands, great punt return with his deceptive speed (short strider).

fells isn't the answer at tight end. he lumbers too much.

franklin needs help on the obvious pass downs.

the entire team needs to wear tactified gloves. i know they're illegal. i don't care.

where was von miller? he had some nice pressure and a couple good tackles behind the line, but he didn't look like a game changer.

oakland is a better team right now. that might change in ten days, but right now oakland is more physical and, most importantly, they execute better than the broncos do. in my mind, the biggest problem from last night was how passive the broncos played in the first half - especially on offense. they looked like a team that missed the offseason - timing was off in the passing game, the oline was inconsistent, defense confused by certain formations. they need coaching, but i do think the right staff is on hand to help them.

i also expect this team to get better. the schemes will be reinforced. the defense will jell. and orton will improve - for whatever reason, orton starts his seasons slow, he'll pick up his game by week three.

overall i'm encouraged. the broncos are a better team than they were 12 months ago. but so are the raiders.

I saw much of the same things I've seen over the past two years from Orton. He still has trouble in the red zone, has trouble getting away from pressure, and doesn't do well on 3rd downs. What I saw was Oakland daring Orton to go over the top by stacking eight in the box. This is a quarterback in his 7th season as a starter and his third in the same offense yet the same problems exist.

[Nomad]

Guys, I'm not saying that DT and the DL isn't a problem. I'm saying that EVERY team in the NFL needs a pass rush, a GOOD pass rush.. to be contenders. There is SOOO much more you can do with Von Miller (in the long run) than you can with a DT. There is NOT a guy that compares to the likes of LT and DT every year in the draft, and we certainly have NEVER had that kind of athlete at LB rushing the passer. You just don't pass on that.

Of course right now the offenses are going to eat us up. But when you have a player like VM to take, you take him and NEVER look back. KC's defense completely transformed after they got Derrick Thomas, and was a force to be dealt with throughout his career.

There is not a DT that you would EVER take over a Derrick Thomas or Lawrence Taylor, and Von Miller has all the make up to be that kind of player for us.

Thats why I think it was very smart for Denver to take Von Miller when we had the chance. Dareus would NEVER be as disrupting, or a player that the offenses had to deal with like Miller is going to be. Thats HUGE in the long run.

I hope you are right! Hopefully Miller turns out like everyone's dreaming about, it only benefits the BRONCOS. BRONCOS didn't address the DT position period except for scrubs this year and that's what makes the fanbase irritated.

But I will say this, I've heard this story before as you speak of a player similiar to Dareus not be much of a disrupting player by many BRONCO fans about 5 yrs ago and there is proof in Baltimore that many BRONCO fans were wrong.

Let's see in a few years who was the right choice. We had Dumervil which Dareus would have complimented, then again he seems to be hurt again:coffee:, so maybe the BRONCOS get a pass on this. They gotta build that dline or steal some DNA from Peyton Manning and inject it into Orton.:D

[silkamilkamonico]

We need DT's, but it is hardly our major concern.

We scored 1 offensive TD last night, while Oakland was playing prevent defense. 1. Against the Oakland Raiders. 1 lousy TD against prevent defense.

Our #1 major issue last night was offense, not our lack of DT's.

[TXBRONC]

We need DT's, but it is hardly our major concern.

We scored 1 offensive TD last night, while Oakland was playing prevent defense. 1. Against the Oakland Raiders. 1 lousy TD against prevent defense.

Our #1 major issue last night was offense, not our lack of DT's.

I can't remember off hand if Orton's fumble happened in the red zone if it did we scored a total of 10 points in three trips.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I hope you are right! Hopefully Miller turns out like everyone's dreaming about, it only benefits the BRONCOS. BRONCOS didn't address the DT position period except for scrubs this year and that's what makes the fanbase irritated.

But I will say this, I've heard this story before as you speak of a player similiar to Dareus not be much of a disrupting player by many BRONCO fans about 5 yrs ago and there is proof in Baltimore that many BRONCO fans were wrong.

Let's see in a few years who was the right choice. We had Dumervil which Dareus would have complimented, then again he seems to be hurt again:coffee:, so maybe the BRONCOS get a pass on this. They gotta build that dline or steal some DNA from Peyton Manning and inject it into Orton.:D

I wanted Ngata, we got Cutler, I wanted to trade up for Raji, we got Moreno and Ayers, I wanted Dareus, we got Miller. Think how good this defense would be right now if they had traded up for Raji and picked Ngata over Cutler. Maybe Plummer would still be the QB and Shanny the coach, who knows.

[TXBRONC]

I wanted Ngata, we got Cutler, I wanted to trade up for Raji, we got Moreno and Ayers, I wanted Dareus, we got Miller. Think how good this defense would be right now if they had traded up for Raji and picked Ngata over Cutler. Maybe Plummer would still be the QB and Shanny the coach, who knows.

I have no love loss for McDaniels but if I'm mistake there was at the very least a rumor he tried to trade up to Green Bay's spot in the draft and they wouldn't budge.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I have no love loss for McDaniels but if I'm mistake there was at the very least a rumor he tried to trade up to Green Bay's spot in the draft and they budge.

That wouldn't surprise me. Green Bay knows what they are doing.

[Nomad]

I wanted Ngata, we got Cutler, I wanted to trade up for Raji, we got Moreno and Ayers, I wanted Dareus, we got Miller. Think how good this defense would be right now if they had traded up for Raji and picked Ngata over Cutler. Maybe Plummer would still be the QB and Shanny the coach, who knows.

I know I should move on but it dwells on me and I play the woulda/shoulda/coulda game quite often especially when I see the results from other teams.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I know I should move on but it dwells on me and I play the woulda/shoulda/coulda game quite often especially when I see the results from other teams.

I move on about everything else except the DT thing and drafting a RB with a top 20 pick.

Those two things piss me off to no end.

[Nomad]

I move on about everything else except the DT thing and drafting a RB with a top 20 pick.

Those two things piss me off to no end.

I'm with ya BDB!!

[Cugel]

Problem is that it helps if you have a top 10 pick to get the cream of the crop. We'll probably need that pick for a QB.

We could have had Dareus this year, a 1st round QB next year, another DT or DE's as well, and by Dareus' third year the QB has some experience and we are ready to contend. When we get the new QB next year, we will still have a gaping hole in the middle of the defense.

You managed in two short paragraphs to say everything I've been trying to say since April! :beer:

Since it takes time for a DT to develop, you had to take one THIS year. Otherwise you're just putting off the Broncos recovery for another year!

Sure, Miller was the best outside pass-rushing LB in the draft, but until you plug the middle of the DL he's not going to be able to make any impact.

Teams won't have to pass the ball on Denver much if they can just run for 1st downs on 3rd and 13!

And that pass-rush is going to be totally negated if the DL is constantly having to worry about stopping the run right up the middle.

Did you notice on that play that Champ Bailey slipped and allowed McFadden to get past him?

I thought, why is the Broncos interior run defense depending on a CB to make the saving tackle? Where were Bunkley and Vickerson on that play?

They just got shoved completely out of the play and allowed a gaping hole in the middle of the DL.

Building a defense is like launching a battleship. If there's a huge hole in the bottom of the hull, it really doesn't make any difference how great the big guns are or how rapidly or accurately they shoot! That ship is going to sink, just like the Broncos season! :coffee:

[NightTerror218]

Dont forget we are also missing Warren and Bunkley went into game questionable to not 100%. Thomas is still injured. We did add some players but injury bug has us. If we had all 3 at 100% things might be different then having McBean in there so much. He sucked hard.

[Nomad]

You're right Cugel and the same cliche always follows suit by people, "Rome wasn't built in a day". I always tell those folks......at least the Romans were smart enough to build the foundations first.

[Cugel]

I have no love loss for McDaniels but if I'm mistake there was at the very least a rumor he tried to trade up to Green Bay's spot in the draft and they wouldn't budge.

Oh, please! Let's not waste time trying to defend the INDEFENSIBLE McMoron's dafting!

In that draft, without trading any picks, McMoron was in position to draft both Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews! If he'd done that he would still probably have his job! Orakpo was the obvious pick and he was taken 1 pick after Moreno, and Matthews was available instead of Robert Ayers!

Normally teams DON'T want to trade their picks. You can't use that as an excuse ("well, we wanted to have a great pick, but we sucked because the other team refused to give up their higher draft pick!")

What kind of pathetic excuse is that?

BTW: Did you see the personal foul Ayers committed last night grabbing the helmet in a desperate attempt to tackle McFadden? That's probably the only highlight he'll get this season. I say that the Broncos will get rid of him next year and either draft a DE or sign a FA to replace him. This is the make or break year for Robert Ayers and it isn't starting out well.

[EastCoastBronco]

Since the players have been taking a beating I'm going to tee off on the horrible goddam officiating.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a game where that much laundry flew.
There was a flag, literally, on 2 out of every 3 plays in the first half.
I realize you need to keep these 2 franchises under a certain amount of control but that was, to quote Marv Levy, unconscionable...;-)

[BigDaddyBronco]

Since the players have been taking a beating I'm going to tee off on the horrible goddam officiating.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a game where that much laundry flew.
There was a flag, literally, on 2 out of every 3 plays in the first half.
I realize you need to keep these 2 franchises under a certain amount of control but that was, to quote Marv Levy, unconscionable...;-)

Yea, at some point you have to let some of the lesser stuff go. It sucks when the officials take the air out of the stadium.

[rationalfan]

another thing: nothing about the linebackers, outside of von miller, impressed me last night. mays made some big hits, but he waits for them to come to him instead of closing in on the ball. woodyard is too small and had the RBs run through a few of his tackles.

haggan is a backup. nuff said.

the team really missed DJ. And part of me wonders if Nate Irving is getting ready to replace mays - weeks from now, not for this game.

[GEM]

Observation:

The fans showed up, the team didn't. :coffee:

[Nomad]

Observation:

The fans showed up, the team didn't. :coffee:

Well said! Even my sons watched the second half of the game with me. They usually don't......they love playing the game but find watching it boring!:confused::noidea:

[BroncoNut]

Observation

we lost

[TXBRONC]

Observation

we lost

Nothing gets past you Nut. :lol:

[Day1BroncoFan]

My observation from last night is that it won't be this year...

[Ravage!!!]

Actually i believe that to do more with Von, DEN needs some good DTs too.
He becomes very 1 dimensional without solid D-line help.
I like him. I do. And i think he will be very good down the road, however, the issue was never at SAM or DE in DEN, it is at DT. And its obvious.
Dareus can be just as disruptive and cause just as many fumbles and be just as versatile as Von. Just a different position.
But hey! Lets get both!!

Thats what I'm saying. I don't think a DT is as versatile, nor as important, as a dominant pass rusher BECAUSE this is a passing league. Getting to the passer is a must.

So I understand why we would draft the guy like Von Miller first between the choices. I would have liked to seen a DT taken later, though.

[Cugel]

Dont forget we are also missing Warren and Bunkley went into game questionable to not 100%. Thomas is still injured. We did add some players but injury bug has us. If we had all 3 at 100% things might be different then having McBean in there so much. He sucked hard.

Have you forgotten that Marcus Thomas was an integral part of the WORST starting DTs in the NFL? He's never shown any signs of real progress and now it's his 5th season so no excuses there.

The Broncos entire off-season plan was to ignore DT in the draft and then desperately attempt to fill the gaping hole by signing FAs? Their star FA acquisition of the entire off-season was Ty Warren. They gave him a $4 million contract despite his having missed the previous two seasons due to injury.

They were desperately gambling that he could return to the form that made him a dominant inside pass-rushing DT years ago.

Well, much like betting all your money on the roulette wheel in Vegas that was a long shot. And it blew up in their faces.

Ty Warren will miss the entire season AGAIN for the 3rd year in a row, so they just burned $4 million. Bunkley was a bust in Philly because he was mediocre against the run and couldn't rush the passer to save his life. So, nothing has changed there.

Bunkley is just another in a LOOONG line of Broncos crap shoot DT signings in a desperate attempt to avoid having to DRAFT an elite DT! It has NEVER worked:

Gerrard Warren (former 1st round pick), Amon Gordon, Antwon Burton, Jimmy Kennedy (former 1st round pick), Sam Adams (washed up pro-bowler), DeWayne Robertson (former 1st round pick), Ron Fields, Jamal Williams (washed up pro-bowler), and now Warren & Bunkley. :coffee:

As for Vickerson, he's just a scrub who wouldn't make most teams' roster and would be a backup anywhere he did make the team. And Ryan McBean he will soon be playing in Canada where he belongs. Or he'll be selling real estate. The fact that he's on your roster simply means that your roster sucks.

[BroncoNut]

Nothing gets past you Nut. :lol:

Actually in a way it kinda did. I fell asleep during the pat/fins game. Woke up when Eric Decker (hotsex) scored the punt return, jerked off to it, then fell asleep again. I was so effin tired and didnt' hear about the news til this am. I listened a little while I was nodding off and it didn't surprise me. It sounded like we got manhandled most of the game and that the score was not indicative of how bad we sucked.

[chazoe60]

This team will suck until we find an OL, a DL, and a QB.


This team is built all screwy. We're built from the outside in on both offense and defense. Good WRs, DBs, and some talent at outside LB and DE. Shit on OL, except Clady, and shit at DT and QB. You absolutely can not win in the NFL the way this team is built.

[Nomad]

Observation

we lost

So what's Festus think about all this!

[Cugel]

Originally Posted by EastCoastBronco View Post
Since the players have been taking a beating I'm going to tee off on the horrible goddam officiating.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a game where that much laundry flew.
There was a flag, literally, on 2 out of every 3 plays in the first half.
I realize you need to keep these 2 franchises under a certain amount of control but that was, to quote Marv Levy, unconscionable...

What's wrong with throwing flags when players are committing endless penalties? Name one that was totally unjustified! I think they could probably have thrown MORE flags, because I saw both sides commit penalties that weren't even called.

Most of those penalties were flagrant and obvious like Robert Ayers grabbing McFadden's helmet and some Raider taking three steps and spearing Orton in the chest with his helmet. How are they not going to call stuff like that?

The game would have gotten totally out of control if they weren't constantly flagging guys for the endless cheap shots and retaliation that went on there last night.

[BroncoNut]

So what's Festus think about all this!

festuses do not really have cognitive thought processes. these really don't even begin to develop in any capacity until after the first few months of life

[BroncoNut]

What's wrong with throwing flags when players are committing endless penalties? Name one that was totally unjustified! I think they could probably have thrown MORE flags, because I saw both sides commit penalties that weren't even called.

Most of those penalties were flagrant and obvious like Robert Ayers grabbing McFadden's helmet and some Raider taking three steps and spearing Orton in the chest with his helmet. How are they not going to call stuff like that?

The game would have gotten totally out of control if they weren't constantly flagging guys for the endless cheap shots and retaliation that went on there last night.

who's throwing flags? these colors don't run muthafukers

[Cugel]

Actually in a way it kinda did. I fell asleep during the pat/fins game. Woke up when Eric Decker (hotsex) scored the punt return, jerked off to it, then fell asleep again. I was so effin tired and didnt' hear about the news til this am. I listened a little while I was nodding off and it didn't surprise me. It sounded like we got manhandled most of the game and that the score was not indicative of how bad we sucked.

Well, when a team commits something like 17 penalties including 5 or 6 personal fouls and a couple of pass-interference penalties, many of which needlessly extended Denver drives, plus fumbles the ball a couple of times they normally lose badly.

The fact that the Raiders did all that and still managed to WIN says everything you need to know about the quality of this Broncos team. Unfortunately. :coffee:

[NightTerror218]

So what was worse....McCoys play calling, or Ortons defense reading and audibles? I would have to say the audibles. All orton had to do was some quick short passes over middle or hit Moreno on outside to catch Oakland with its pants down blitzing but it never happened.

[jhildebrand]

At the end of the day we traded Cutler, Hillis, and Marshall

for

Orton, Lloyd, and Moreno.

Do over anyone?

[rationalfan]

Observation:

The fans showed up, the team didn't. :coffee:

no offense to you, personally, but i hate that kind of remark.

mostly because if the players called out the fans for leaving their seats when it started to rain, or (in the past) selling their tickets to steelers fans or for booing just because they want to see a third string QB play, the fans would brand the players as aholes.

yet, the fans get to criticize the players for everything, as if its a god-given right.

i'm a broncos fan, admittedly. and i love sports. but i think most sports fans are self-righteous people who fail to even TRY to see beyond their own perspectives.

[Day1BroncoFan]

no offense to you, personally, but i hate that kind of remark.

mostly because if the players called out the fans for leaving their seats when it started to rain, or (in the past) selling their tickets to steelers fans or for booing just because they want to see a third string QB play, the fans would brand the players as aholes.

yet, the fans get to criticize the players for everything, as if its a god-given right.

i'm a broncos fan, admittedly. and i love sports. but i think most sports fans are self-righteous people who fail to even TRY to see beyond their own perspectives.

Most fans I know including me, like winning and also get to critisize when players don't play well.

Players want the fans to like them, they make more money that way.

[Nomad]

Most fans I know including me, like winning and also get to critisize when players don't play well.

Players want the fans to like them, they make more money that way.

Don't worry about it Day1. BRONCO players should have had this game circled and if anything their must-win game of the year. GEM spoke the truth. The players/coaches deserve the criticism. BTW, the fans will stay in the seats if there is a product worth watching.

[GEM]

no offense to you, personally, but i hate that kind of remark.

mostly because if the players called out the fans for leaving their seats when it started to rain, or (in the past) selling their tickets to steelers fans or for booing just because they want to see a third string QB play, the fans would brand the players as aholes.

yet, the fans get to criticize the players for everything, as if its a god-given right.

i'm a broncos fan, admittedly. and i love sports. but i think most sports fans are self-righteous people who fail to even TRY to see beyond their own perspectives.

If the players called out the fans for those things, I would say yep, I have said that the past 2 years,. ;) Go back to the last game against Minn a couple seasons ago. I bitched about all the purple in our stadium. Go back to the MNF vs. GB, you'll see the same complaint about all the green. Sit behind me at last nights game when I called those leaving a bunch of chicken littles for not handling a little rain. Don't call me on the spot when you haven't been around to see that the things your saying, I've been bitching about for about the same amount of time.

When I say the fans showed up and the team didn't, it's because I was there. I saw Rahim Moore telling the fans to get up, waving his hands telling the fans to get behind them. I saw the fans stomping their feet, I saw the fans screaming their hearts out. I saw the Raiders get 2 straight false starts because the stadium was too loud. I also saw that even when the fans did their part, the Raiders ran over our defense and got a first down, over and over and over again. They wanted us in the game and behind them, they got it. We wanted them in the game and to make plays...they failed.

So don't tell me about self-righteous, especially when you are being exactly that in your post.

And on the booing and Tebow chants....check my posts since last night, I said I didn't like it and I hate Orton... :coffee:

[Npba900]

Oh, please! Let's not waste time trying to defend the INDEFENSIBLE McMoron's dafting!

In that draft, without trading any picks, McMoron was in position to draft both Brian Orakpo and Clay Matthews! If he'd done that he would still probably have his job! Orakpo was the obvious pick and he was taken 1 pick after Moreno, and Matthews was available instead of Robert Ayers!

Normally teams DON'T want to trade their picks. You can't use that as an excuse ("well, we wanted to have a great pick, but we sucked because the other team refused to give up their higher draft pick!")

What kind of pathetic excuse is that?

BTW: Did you see the personal foul Ayers committed last night grabbing the helmet in a desperate attempt to tackle McFadden? That's probably the only highlight he'll get this season. I say that the Broncos will get rid of him next year and either draft a DE or sign a FA to replace him. This is the make or break year for Robert Ayers and it isn't starting out well.

Speaking of Ayers, McD should have been leery of picking him because he only had one great year at Tennessee. That should have sent up red flags. Ayers bascially displayed no consistent play/All American status to be warranted to have been taken number 1. Simple put McD was not a very good evalutor of talent.

[BroncoStud]

no offense to you, personally, but i hate that kind of remark.

mostly because if the players called out the fans for leaving their seats when it started to rain, or (in the past) selling their tickets to steelers fans or for booing just because they want to see a third string QB play, the fans would brand the players as aholes.

yet, the fans get to criticize the players for everything, as if its a god-given right.

i'm a broncos fan, admittedly. and i love sports. but i think most sports fans are self-righteous people who fail to even TRY to see beyond their own perspectives.

These players wouldn't know winning if it sat on their face and laughed. There are about 5 or 6 keepers on this roster, the rest can piss off and go flip burgers next year when Elway dumps their sorry asses.

[Npba900]

festuses do not really have cognitive thought processes. these really don't even begin to develop in any capacity until after the first few months of life

Just out curiosity, is Festuse still alive or has he passed on?

[Traveler]

Speaking of Ayers, McD should have been leery of picking him because he only had one great year at Tennessee. That should have sent up red flags. Ayers bascially displayed no consistent play/All American status to be warranted to have been taken number 1. Simple put McD was not a very good evalutor of talent.

Robert Ayers=Tyson Jackson=Average player. Nothing more at this point in time.

[Npba900]

Robert Ayers=Tyson Jackson=Average player. Nothing more at this point in time.

Agreed.

[Nomad]

Just out curiosity, is Festuse still alive or has he passed on?

the fella was born in 1916 and died 1991....yeah I wikied:D

[Northman]

i'm a broncos fan, admittedly. and i love sports. but i think most sports fans are self-righteous people who fail to even TRY to see beyond their own perspectives.

Sports fans are emotionally attached to their teams. Players arent.

[BroncoNut]

Most fans I know including me, like winning and also get to critisize when players don't play well.

Players want the fans to like them, they make more money that way.

while I don't disagree, you're particular situation is not the point.

[BroncoNut]

Just out curiosity, is Festuse still alive or has he passed on?

He has passed on to the green pastures in the sky.

[BroncoNut]

the fella was born in 1916 and died 1991....yeah I wikied:D

****, he axed me

[BroncoNut]

If the players called out the fans for those things, I would say yep, I have said that the past 2 years,. ;) Go back to the last game against Minn a couple seasons ago. I bitched about all the purple in our stadium. Go back to the MNF vs. GB, you'll see the same complaint about all the green. Sit behind me at last nights game when I called those leaving a bunch of chicken littles for not handling a little rain. Don't call me on the spot when you haven't been around to see that the things your saying, I've been bitching about for about the same amount of time.

When I say the fans showed up and the team didn't, it's because I was there. I saw Rahim Moore telling the fans to get up, waving his hands telling the fans to get behind them. I saw the fans stomping their feet, I saw the fans screaming their hearts out. I saw the Raiders get 2 straight false starts because the stadium was too loud. I also saw that even when the fans did their part, the Raiders ran over our defense and got a first down, over and over and over again. They wanted us in the game and behind them, they got it. We wanted them in the game and to make plays...they failed.

So don't tell me about self-righteous, especially when you are being exactly that in your post.

And on the booing and Tebow chants....check my posts since last night, I said I didn't like it and I hate Orton... :coffee:
don't get your panties in a bunch sis

[BroncoNut]

Robert Ayers=Tyson Jackson=Average player. Nothing more at this point in time.

well he can go be average somewhere else as far as I am concerned the loser

[Nomad]

Nut, you feelin ok today?

[Traveler]

Nut, you feelin ok today?

I'm guessing yes, since I actually understand his posts today.:D

[TXBRONC]

Actually in a way it kinda did. I fell asleep during the pat/fins game. Woke up when Eric Decker (hotsex) scored the punt return, jerked off to it, then fell asleep again. I was so effin tired and didnt' hear about the news til this am. I listened a little while I was nodding off and it didn't surprise me. It sounded like we got manhandled most of the game and that the score was not indicative of how bad we sucked.

Oh the Raiders didn't play well. We were just worse than they were.

[Cugel]

Robert Ayers=Tyson Jackson=Average player. Nothing more at this point in time.

I don't think that's remotely fair . . . to Tyson Jackson who is an adequate (if overpaid) football player. I would take him in a heartbeat over any Broncos DT (he plays DE in a 3-4 but would play DT in the Broncos 4-3).

In fact, if he continues to under-achieve I could see the Broncos signing him in a few years time to a 3 year $8 million contract after the Chiefs release him.

That would be standard operating procedure around Dove Valley. :coffee:

Robert Ayers has never yet shown that he's adequate in the past, and his idiotic personal foul on McFadden as well as his general lack of impact last night wasn't a great start to this season either.

[BroncoNut]

Nut, you feelin ok today?

yeah, just had to stop in and do a fly by. busy day today. got alot done

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Robert Ayers=Tyson Jackson=Average player. Nothing more at this point in time.

He's not even average. He has 1.5 sacks in 2+ years of STARTING. Jarvis Moss had better stats and he was never a starter.

Ayers is hot garbage. I think he's a part-timer. Of all the guys on the current roster, he's done the least to "earn" his starting job. He's never had to beat anyone. He just gets penciled in because he's a first round pick.

He's got 15 more games to show me something. Then I want his lazy ass off this roster.

[Nomad]

yeah, just had to stop in and do a fly by. busy day today. got alot done

I was concerned because reading some of your comments in the Lounge and here, I was wondering if you were emotionally damaged because of the BRONCOS and Iowa's heart breaking loss to Iowa State.

[Cugel]

Oh the Raiders didn't play well. We were just worse than they were.

No team that commits 17 penalties and fumbles twice (recovering once) can claim to be "playing well."

The Raiders played that badly. They are a badly coached undisciplined team. Can you imagine them playing somebody GOOD and committing that many personal fouls and not getting crushed? How many drives did they needlessly extend with an idiotic personal foul?

If they play like that against Chicago or Detroit or Green Bay (all teams they play this year) they won't be within 21 points. Denver has ZERO chance against those teams the way they're playing right now.

[rationalfan]

If the players called out the fans for those things, I would say yep, I have said that the past 2 years,. ;) Go back to the last game against Minn a couple seasons ago. I bitched about all the purple in our stadium. Go back to the MNF vs. GB, you'll see the same complaint about all the green. Sit behind me at last nights game when I called those leaving a bunch of chicken littles for not handling a little rain. Don't call me on the spot when you haven't been around to see that the things your saying, I've been bitching about for about the same amount of time.

When I say the fans showed up and the team didn't, it's because I was there. I saw Rahim Moore telling the fans to get up, waving his hands telling the fans to get behind them. I saw the fans stomping their feet, I saw the fans screaming their hearts out. I saw the Raiders get 2 straight false starts because the stadium was too loud. I also saw that even when the fans did their part, the Raiders ran over our defense and got a first down, over and over and over again. They wanted us in the game and behind them, they got it. We wanted them in the game and to make plays...they failed.

So don't tell me about self-righteous, especially when you are being exactly that in your post.

And on the booing and Tebow chants....check my posts since last night, I said I didn't like it and I hate Orton... :coffee:

of course i'm self righteous. it was implied my post that you responded to.

also re: original post, i said no offense to you personally. so don't give me lines about what you did yesterday or last year or whatever. i don't need a sermon on your devotion to fandom. i wasn't attacking you, it was an attack on myopic overreactions.

speaking of fans, i watched the game sitting next to some stoned-out raiders fans at a bar last night. they were talking about how their homes were infested with flies so badly they have trouble sleeping. no lie. i think even al davis would have disowned them.

[BroncoNut]

I was concerned because reading some of your comments in the Lounge and here, I was wondering if you were emotionally damaged because of the BRONCOS and Iowa's heart breaking loss to Iowa State.

I appreciate your concern, but I'm doing O.K. today. I root for the wrong teams. Well, I shouldn't say that, I thank God I'm not a Steelers fan (actually considered becoming 1 at one time). The Iowa loss sucked more for me. I'm more of a realst with pro sports and i just don't have a good feeling about where we're at. Someone made a solid post on how we are just not built for the NFL right now. I think there's a lot of validity to that. I would not have been surprised if we got more of a spanking last night ttytt. I actually missed most of the game, but what I did see, it was the same ole same ole.

[Northman]

i think even al davis would have disowned them.

I doubt Davis would disown them. It was probably his corpse the flies were buzzing around.

[BroncoNut]

of course i'm self righteous. it was implied my post that you responded to.

also re: original post, i said no offense to you personally. so don't give me lines about what you did yesterday or last year or whatever. i don't need a sermon on your devotion to fandom. i wasn't attacking you, it was an attack on myopic overreactions.

speaking of fans, i watched the game sitting next to some stoned-out raiders fans at a bar last night. they were talking about how their homes were infested with flies so badly they have trouble sleeping. no lie. i think even al davis would have disowned them.

lol rf.

[BroncoNut]

I doubt Davis would disown them. It was probably his corpse the flies were buzzing around.

lol at you too Northman

[Cugel]

Interesting comment on Mike & Scott 104.3 the Fan from Victor Rodgers, former CU Buff and NFL OL with Detroit:


"It doesn't matter what you have at the skill positions. If you're not getting it done on the offensive and defensive line; if guys aren't winning those battles one on one, then teams are going to find a way to exploit that every single week."

[SOCALORADO.]

Interesting comment on Mike & Scott 104.3 the Fan from Victor Rodgers, former CU Buff and NFL OL with Detroit:

Really!?!? Jeez, it sounds like me when i was screaming to draft some 4-3 DTs in the deepest 4-3 DT draft in decades.
Oh well!

SUCK4LUCK

[slim]

So the game is won at the LOS? Not exactly a shocking revelation.

[FanInAZ]

Man, I tried SO hard to do the same. But when I went to cancel my autorenewal they kept bargaining down the price and bargaining and bargaining. When I still wanted to cancel--the rep sent be back into the queue to start all over again with another rep! Eventually the second rep I talked to wore me down and I agreed to keep it for $109 for the season.

So far even that doesn't look like a good price...

Sales reps are like are like Jehovah’s Witnesses Missionaries & any phone sales person. The only way to stop the conversation is to close the door or hang up the phone. I know it seems rude at 1st to those of us who were taught to be polite to others, but you'll get used to it eventually.

[NightTerror218]

Really!?!? Jeez, it sounds like me when i was screaming to draft some 4-3 DTs in the deepest 4-3 DT draft in decades.
Oh well!

SUCK4LUCK

I think Everyone was....and in the 2nd round could have drafted Austin and Paea......nope.