Can't imagine why some of us wanted trench warriors

[G_Money]

It's great to have tacklers in the back 7, but they don't help you make consistent no-gain stops in the run game.

Dawkins had to make too many plays. Woodyard and Miller are great in the open field, but there was too much open field to be had. Too many running lanes for the Raiders.

And none for us. This look familiar? 13 rushes, 38 yards. That's under 3 yards a carry.

Oakland racked up 5 per and 190 yards. We have good pass-rushers, but Campbell barely threw for a hundred yards - hard to sack a guy who's not throwing. Still had a better rating than Orton's 300 yard game provided, though.

Beadles is not a starting guard in this league at this point. Franklin is not a starting tackle. I'm already hoping to draft an OT in the first next year (Khalil maybe), which solves 2 positions: tackle and guard (where Franklin SHOULD be moved to).

Our OL was badly overmatched and outworked. Our DL made stupid penalties and bad tackles, or just flat disappeared when it was needed.

And we're crushingly thin on both sides.

Dawkins and crew on D gave it all they had...but with the game on the line we had no chance to stop Oakland.

That has nothing to do with the heart or talent of the back seven - they're just too far away to hold the line of scrimmage and contain the holes.

We need more trench warriors. This is a multi-year rebuild, so I understand that it wasn't all going to happen this year, but as it was a year with good DL talent it hurts not to have gotten any. Normally you build the trenches first and the skill players around them.

Right now we have skill players and few quality players to man the trenches. That looks like it's gonna hurt us all year. Buckle in and hold on - some of the losses this year are gonna feel like the other team has bigger stones than we do as they beat us into submission on game-ending drives or crush our offense into one-dimensionality.

And it'll feel that way because they do. :tsk:

~G

[dogfish]

yea. . . thank god we didn't overpay for mebane or coefield, right?


:heh:

[BORDERLINE]

We where going to get all the good DT's in FA. That's why we didn't draft any.

And then we where going to have a great selection from the waiver wire. But we all know what took place there.

EFX has told us nothing but lies.

We are in really bad shape because of that

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I do remember a few of us asking, "what good is a pass rush when other teams don't need to pass?"

We found out today. We got absolutely MURDERED out there vs the run. Can we finally just fix what's really wrong and stop being distracted by shiny objects? Is Derek Landri still out there? Any DTs worth picking up? Anyone is better than our current crop. Vickerson did us no favors losing 40 lbs in the offseason. He sure isn't any quicker and he gets pancaked A LOT on running plays.

[cuzz4169]

Id take Igor!!

[CrazyHorse]

Pat Williams anyone?

[sneakers]

Maybe we can trick William Perry by telling him there is an excellent fishing spot in the middle of the football field every sunday.

[Northman]

For the life of me i cant understand why we are going on what? 6-7 years now KNOWING where one of our biggest weaknesses are but we keep ignoring it.

[dogfish]

For the life of me i cant understand why we are going on what? 6-7 years now KNOWING where one of our biggest weaknesses are but we keep ignoring it.

well, duh-- obviously if you ignore it for long enough, it'll get bored and go away sooner or later. . . .

[Northman]

well, duh-- obviously if you ignore it for long enough, it'll get bored and go away sooner or later. . . .

Great point, i should of put it on iggy.

[SM19]

For the life of me i cant understand why we are going on what? 6-7 years now KNOWING where one of our biggest weaknesses are but we keep ignoring it.

We're waiting on a rule change that replaces both DTs with a large, slow-moving concrete slab suspended from the blimp above the stadium.

[sneakers]

Sometimes hoping things will get better seems to work....just not in this case.

[spikerman]

Don't look for a change any time soon. In a recent article Elway was asked what positions were most important to build a winning team and guess what was NOT on his list.

[claymore]

Don't look for a change any time soon. In a recent article Elway was asked what positions were most important to build a winning team and guess what was NOT on his list.

Yeah, I bet you guys $10 bucks we dont take a defensive lineman in the first 3 rounds of this next draft.

Everyone hates Orton, Tebow cant crack the starting lineup, and we cant run the football.

I see QB, OL, and RB on this next draft.

[SOCALORADO.]

Yeah, I bet you guys $10 bucks we dont take a defensive lineman in the first 3 rounds of this next draft.

Everyone hates Orton, Tebow cant crack the starting lineup, and we cant run the football.

I see QB, OL, and RB on this next draft.

I believe i made some quiet, unflattering comments about DEN making a HUGE mistake not drafting any DTs in the heaviest DT draft in decades.
My mistake. Obviously DEN is doing just fine there.
Its so funny reading all of this suprise! What!?! some of you thought this team was going to be good!!?!? LOL!
If you cant stop the run, the opposing team will KILL YOU.

I see QB, DT, OL, RB,

[claymore]

I believe i made some quiet, unflattering comments about DEN making a HUGE mistake not drafting any DTs in the heaviest DT draft in decades.
My mistake. Obviously DEN is doing just fine there.
Its so funny reading all of this suprise! What!?! some of you thought this team was going to be good!!?!? LOL!
If you cant stop the run, the opposing team will KILL YOU.

I see QB, DT, OL, RB,

I think Fox wants some real running backs. Moreno was Dancing with the stars last night.

QB is an almost definite. HOPEFULLY we take the BPA whatever route we go.

[atwater27]

Been saying it for years.... What the **** good is a pass rusher when teams can just run you into the ground. My hope is Fox and Elway are rebuilding the team in reverse order of positional importance in order to get Luck. Otherwise, they ****** up reeeeeaal bad not getting Dareus.

[claymore]

Been saying it for years.... What the **** good is a pass rusher when teams can just run you into the ground. My hope is Fox and Elway are rebuilding the team in reverse order of positional importance in order to get Luck. Otherwise, they ****** up reeeeeaal bad not getting Dareus.

I argued the same piece about Champ Bailey. WTF good does it do to pay a guy like that when they can run, and or throw to the other side at will.

CB is a great player though. We just wasted his career.

[BroncoNut]

I completely agree. As far the the QB situation goes, a saying comes to mind. I'm not sure if it will resonate with the less intelligent on the board, (and please refrain from saluting the post just to not be viewed as one of those... there's nothing wrong with being stupid. it DOES NOT make you a bad person) But anyway, the saying is this, ... You have to build the barn before you can paint it.

[Fan in Exile]

Oh my goodness you guys are soooo right I mean that game would have gone tons better if we had paea, jenkins, and austin out injured instead of Thomas and Warren. Clearly they should listen to your advice. Oh Wait Dareus' two tackles would clearly have made the difference. Brilliant way to think long term.

How did Fox in the middle of the lock-out not know that Beadles and Walton were going to look worse in this game than they did at the end of last year. What a retard. Having an injured Marcu Gilbert would have been soo much better than Franklin. They should totally put you guys in charge of the draft.

While we're at it let's completely ignore how the offense screwed up and put a pretty huge burden on the defense. But no we are way smarter than fox and elway because we wanted Dareus.

[slim]

I think Fox wants some real running backs. Moreno was Dancing with the stars last night.

QB is an almost definite. HOPEFULLY we take the BPA whatever route we go.

The OL was constantly pushed into the backfield. They got their asses handed to them.

That is not on Moreno. What was he supposed to do?

[tomjonesrocks]

They didn't have to miss Miller to take a DT.

Missing on Franklin or Moore would have been fine.

[Thnikkaman]

The O-Line is young. Yes we could use better players in the middle of the D-Line, but I think the O-Line has a higher ceiling than most think.

[slim]

The O-Line is young. Yes we could use better players in the middle of the D-Line, but I think the O-Line has a higher ceiling than most think.

I don't think either line has any real upside. They need at least 2 new starters on OL (maybe 3) and they need to blow the DL up.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don't think either line has any real upside. They need at least 2 new starters on OL (maybe 3) and they need to blow the DL up.

On defense, I think we need one solid 3 technique penetrator next to Bunkley (and a couple of guys for depth) and we need to replace Robert Ayers at LDE.

On offense, I'd still like to swap Beadles and Franklin at least for a game or two. Franklin doesn't have the feet to play vs an edge rusher and Beadles isn't strong enough to handle big-assed DTs in the middle without a lot of help. He gets pushed into the pocket too easily. Beadles was a 4 year starter at Tackle in college and is quick enough and has better technique to pass block whereas Franklin is a bruiser who blocks best downhill and in a phone booth and would promote running between the tackles. I see Franklin as a Leonard Davis type.

If it was me calling the shots, I'd make the switch now and see what happens. What's the worst that can happen?

[jhildebrand]

Walton looked pretty good to me. It was Beadles (and Franklin to a lesser degree) who looked downright terrible.

As for the D line, EFX can hide behind the injuries to Bunkley and Warren.

Dareus wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference last night.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Walton looked pretty good to me. It was Beadles (and Franklin to a lesser degree) who looked downright terrible.

As for the D line, EFX can hide behind the injuries to Bunkley and Warren.

Dareus wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference last night.

Walton was blown up on a regular basis. Beadles was struggling against Seymour big time. Both of those guys didn't have bad technique, they were just not big and strong enough.

[jhildebrand]

Walton was blown up on a regular basis. Beadles was struggling against Seymour big time. Both of those guys didn't have bad technique, they were just not big and strong enough.

I am re-watching the game now just for line play. I will keep an eye out. I did see Franklin on plays pulling/flowing to the left just get DOMINATED!

[BigSarge87]

I completely agree. As far the the QB situation goes, a saying comes to mind. I'm not sure if it will resonate with the less intelligent on the board, (and please refrain from saluting the post just to not be viewed as one of those... there's nothing wrong with being stupid. it DOES NOT make you a bad person) But anyway, the saying is this, ... You have to build the barn before you can paint it.

Something tells me the only way you can get a nut is by jerking off in front of the mirror.

I respect your opinion in your broncos comments, but this one kind of made you look like an a-hole. Sorry if I took it the wrong way. Just sayin.

[Traveler]

While I begged to differ at the time, Gil Brandt said last year that with the number of high draft picks Denver had the past two seasons, Denver failed (miserably) to capitalize on the talent available to them.

4 #1's and 4 #2's. Still a touch early to pass final judgement, but long enough to know we didn't provide the beginning of a solid foundation to rebuild this once proud franchise.

We just don't have the talent to play with the big boys yet. We are now paying for the numerous woeful drafts of previous regimes, but especially for amount of high picks in the 2009 & 2010 that have yet to bear much fruit.

[Traveler]

I am re-watching the game now just for line play. I will keep an eye out. I did see Franklin on plays pulling/flowing to the left just get DOMINATED!

When you finish that, go back a look at the play at MLB.

[Cugel]

We're waiting on a rule change that replaces both DTs with a large, slow-moving concrete slab suspended from the blimp above the stadium.

LOL! :beer:

I hope they make the rule change this off-season, because that will do more to shore up the defense than watching them ignore DT in the draft once again!

[Cugel]

Oh my goodness you guys are soooo right I mean that game would have gone tons better if we had paea, jenkins, and austin out injured instead of Thomas and Warren. Clearly they should listen to your advice. Oh Wait Dareus' two tackles would clearly have made the difference. Brilliant way to think long term.

How did Fox in the middle of the lock-out not know that Beadles and Walton were going to look worse in this game than they did at the end of last year. What a retard. Having an injured Marcu Gilbert would have been soo much better than Franklin. They should totally put you guys in charge of the draft.

While we're at it let's completely ignore how the offense screwed up and put a pretty huge burden on the defense. But no we are way smarter than fox and elway because we wanted Dareus.

How utterly sad and pathetic this post is! It isn't that the game would have gone "tons better" with Dareus in there instead of Von Miller, and Paea or Austin instead of Ryan McBean (although just typing that makes me think the Raiders wouldn't have rushed for 190 yards).

The point is that the Broncos would have laid the foundation for the future.
And they didn't do that this off-season.

This morning's Denver Post, in some imaginary "Bizzaro alternate universe" where the Broncos actually draft DTs: The WORST the headline could possibly have read this morning was: "Broncos DT rookies schooled by Raiders OL."

"The Broncos highly touted rookie tandem of DTs Marcel Dareus and Steven Paea were gashed by the Raiders running game last night. Said Dareus after the game: 'it was our first game in the NFL and hopefully we'll learn from our mistakes and get better.' "

I for one wouldn't feel so badly about the game if that were the case as I do knowing that there's no hope for the future with these DTs. :coffee:

[BigDaddyBronco]

Something tells me the only way you can get a nut is by jerking off in front of the mirror.

I respect your opinion in your broncos comments, but this one kind of made you look like an a-hole. Sorry if I took it the wrong way. Just sayin.
Nut is bi-polar, just ignore him.

[Nomad]

Nut is bi-polar, just ignore him.

He's very serious today....not joking around at all.

[Fan in Exile]

How utterly sad and pathetic this post is! It isn't that the game would have gone "tons better" with Dareus in there instead of Von Miller, and Paea or Austin instead of Ryan McBean (although just typing that makes me think the Raiders wouldn't have rushed for 190 yards).

The point is that the Broncos would have laid the foundation for the future.
And they didn't do that this off-season.

This morning's Denver Post, in some imaginary "Bizzaro alternate universe" where the Broncos actually draft DTs: The WORST the headline could possibly have read this morning was: "Broncos DT rookies schooled by Raiders OL."

"The Broncos highly touted rookie tandem of DTs Marcel Dareus and Steven Paea were gashed by the Raiders running game last night. Said Dareus after the game: 'it was our first game in the NFL and hopefully we'll learn from our mistakes and get better.' "

I for one wouldn't feel so badly about the game if that were the case as I do knowing that there's no hope for the future with these DTs. :coffee:

This post is dumber than a box of rocks. Drafting a DT does not equal laying the foundation for the future.

You lay foundation by getting the best player that you can, not by drafting a specific position.

[jhildebrand]

When you finish that, go back a look at the play at MLB.

I don't need to. Mays looked terrible for the most part. He let the play ccome to him instead of the opposite.

By week 8 this team will be playing most of its youth and I would think that would include Irving at MLB

[G_Money]

Except that line play tends to be foundational. Very few OL or DL come right into the league and dominate. It takes them 2-3 years to get their sea-legs and become good (or even great) pros.

So by not drafting DL this year, we postponed the future effectiveness of that position by another year.

Now, maybe that wouldn't be the case if we wanted to go with good DL in free agency who were already productive...but this was the best year to do that in a while with the rules on who was available in the FA market making this a very full year at the position.

We didn't do that either, and the pickings in future years will be slim and either mediocre or expensive.

Von Miller is gonna be a beast as a pass-rusher, but that doesn't help us if no one ever needs to pass the ball.

I hope Tebow works out and we're drafting an OT and some DL over the first few rounds. But again, this draft won't be as deep in DTs, so we'll have to hope that all those DTs we passed over this year are making their teams very happy and some good ones fall in the draft.

Having to re-draft the safety/TE/pass-rusher section of our 2009 draft during this year's selection process hurt us.

We got better players this time around, IMO, but it still hurts other crucial areas of our team. I hope we can scheme better as time goes on, to mask our talent deficiencies until we can correct them.

~G

[Cugel]

This post is dumber than a box of rocks. Drafting a DT does not equal laying the foundation for the future.

You lay foundation by getting the best player that you can, not by drafting a specific position.

Wrong again! There's a DRAFT VALUE by position! The HARDER it is to get a position player the HIGHER that position is drafted!

QB is hardest to find so almost all franchise QBs are taken in the first round and are often the #1 overall pick, as this year with Newton.

LT and a penetrating pass-rushing DT are next hardest to find so the elite prospects are always drafted in the top 5.

There are just fewer men who are 6'6", 290 with great speed and athleticism, than there are men who are 6'2" 245 with great speed and athleticism. That's not MY theory. That's Bill Parcells' "Big Planet Theory."

There's just no point drafting an OLB when you're missing either a starting LT or pass-rushing DT. At least there's no excuse for doing so if there's an elite DT prospect sitting right there when you are picking and your starting DTs are Marcus Thomas and Vickerson!

The Broncos gambled on getting BOTH an OLB AND a DT via FA and failed miserably.

They've tried to get their starting DTs in FA for 10 years now and failed every single year!

Hence the list I pointed out in this very thread:

Gerrard Warren, Amon Gordon, Antwon Burton, Jimmy Kennedy, DeWayne Robertson, Ron Fields, Jamal Williams, Ty Warren and Broderick Bunkley!

Just an endless list of failure. Time for a change. :coffee:

[Cugel]

Except that line play tends to be foundational. Very few OL or DL come right into the league and dominate. It takes them 2-3 years to get their sea-legs and become good (or even great) pros.

So by not drafting DL this year, we postponed the future effectiveness of that position by another year.

A lot of fans just don't grasp this simple elementary truth. You don't start building a house with the roof! You start with the foundation. And that's franchise QB first, then a pass-rushing DT, and starting LT second. Then pass-rushing DE or OLB (if you play a 3-4). Then G's and C and LBs.

The Broncos essentially splurged on a fancy exterior trim, when the foundation is crumbling and in ruins!

This is not to say that Miller won't be a good player. He just won't matter so long as the DT spot remains a weakness.

And the Raiders just exposed this gaping hole in the defense beyond any possible rational dispute! 190 yards = NO ARGUMENT!

Dareus instead of Miller! PERIOD! :coffee:

[Fan in Exile]

Wrong again! There's a DRAFT VALUE by position! The HARDER it is to get a position player the HIGHER that position is drafted!

QB is hardest to find so almost all franchise QBs are taken in the first round and are often the #1 overall pick, as this year with Newton.

LT and a penetrating pass-rushing DT are next hardest to find so the elite prospects are always drafted in the top 5.

There are just fewer men who are 6'6", 290 with great speed and athleticism, than there are men who are 6'2" 245 with great speed and athleticism. That's not MY theory. That's Bill Parcells' "Big Planet Theory."

There's just no point drafting an OLB when you're missing either a starting LT or pass-rushing DT. At least there's no excuse for doing so if there's an elite DT prospect sitting right there when you are picking and your starting DTs are Marcus Thomas and Vickerson!

The Broncos gambled on getting BOTH an OLB AND a DT via FA and failed miserably.

They've tried to get their starting DTs in FA for 10 years now and failed every single year!

Hence the list I pointed out in this very thread:

Gerrard Warren, Amon Gordon, Antwon Burton, Jimmy Kennedy, DeWayne Robertson, Ron Fields, Jamal Williams, Ty Warren and Broderick Bunkley!

Just an endless list of failure. Time for a change. :coffee:

Ahhhh that's so cute, I love how you twist things to try to prove your point. It's not a pass rushing DT, it's just a pass rusher. It can be a DE, OLB, or DT. What did we get again??? Oh that's right a pass rusher.

But you're right you do need people in the middle, so what did we do again? Oh that's right Warren, Thomas, Bunkley. The problem that your posts are clearly too dumb to grasp is not that they didn't draft a DT, it's that the DT they brought in got injured.

Notice the problem, injuries.

They didn't delay anything they brought in guys who can produce now.

Perhaps without the stick up your post you could rewatch the game and see how well the DTs played. Look at the outside runs that killed us, or the pass to that stupid FB. Or even Bailey falling down.

Look folks there's lots of problems on the team, that one draft choice isn't the issue. Even look at the O-line a 1st, 2nds, a 3rd, and a fifth. There's plenty invested there, they just need the same scheme for a little while.

[silkamilkamonico]

A lot of fans just don't grasp this simple elementary truth. You don't start building a house with the roof! You start with the foundation. And that's franchise QB first, then a pass-rushing DT, and starting LT second. Then pass-rushing DE or OLB (if you play a 3-4). Then G's and C and LBs.

The Broncos essentially splurged on a fancy exterior trim, when the foundation is crumbling and in ruins!

This is not to say that Miller won't be a good player. He just won't matter so long as the DT spot remains a weakness.

And the Raiders just exposed this gaping hole in the defense beyond any possible rational dispute! 190 yards = NO ARGUMENT!

Dareus instead of Miller! PERIOD! :coffee:

Anyone that actually bothered to watch the game last night and knows anything about football could see that we got dominated on the ground at the perimeters, not up the middle.

Our defense, although has holes, played well enough to win last night. Our offense who scored 1 TD against Oaklands prevent defense at the end of the game last night did not.

We need a QB about 10x worse than we need a DT.

[SOCALORADO.]

Anyone that actually bothered to watch the game last night and knows anything about football could see that we got dominated on the ground at the perimeters, not up the middle.

Our defense, although has holes, played well enough to win last night. Our offense who scored 1 TD against Oaklands prevent defense at the end of the game last night did not.

We need a QB about 10x worse than we need a DT.

I agree, but DEN needs some starting calibur DTs as well.....and a MLB....and a guard......and a center.......and a ...

[silkamilkamonico]

I agree, but DEN needs some starting calibur DTs as well.....and a MLB....and a guard......and a center.......and a ...

I totally agree, but I do think when you look around the league, an explosive offense led by a potent QB is the blueprint to winning. Offense is so far above and beyond defense in today's NFL.

You can win with a great offense and bad defense. You cannot win with a great defense and bad offense.

[claymore]

Anyone that actually bothered to watch the game last night and knows anything about football could see that we got dominated on the ground at the perimeters, not up the middle.

Our defense, although has holes, played well enough to win last night. Our offense who scored 1 TD against Oaklands prevent defense at the end of the game last night did not.

We need a QB about 10x worse than we need a DT.

Word. :werd:

[dogfish]

Yeah, I bet you guys $10 bucks we dont take a defensive lineman in the first 3 rounds of this next draft.



no question-- you can just write that in stone right now. . . i think you can more or less assume we'll be taking a QB with our first pick, and offensive line and cornerback will be fighting each other for priority. . . DT will be filled the same way it's always filled, with whatever scrub retreads we can get cheapest. . . i can't for the life of me figure out why we love that organizational model so much when we keep getting gashed, but for whatever reason, that's our style. . . .

[Ravage!!!]

A lot of fans just don't grasp this simple elementary truth. You don't start building a house with the roof! You start with the foundation. And that's franchise QB first, then a pass-rushing DT, and starting LT second. Then pass-rushing DE or OLB (if you play a 3-4). Then G's and C and LBs.

The Broncos essentially splurged on a fancy exterior trim, when the foundation is crumbling and in ruins!

This is not to say that Miller won't be a good player. He just won't matter so long as the DT spot remains a weakness.

And the Raiders just exposed this gaping hole in the defense beyond any possible rational dispute! 190 yards = NO ARGUMENT!

Dareus instead of Miller! PERIOD! :coffee:

Don't try to push your opinion as fact. Its not.. no matter how much yellow you put in your post.

They went with the best Defensive player in the draft, and they felt the multible things that you can do with Von Miller is more valuable at the #2 spot than taking a DT, and I agree with them. So do MANY people that evaluate the draft, as well as ANYONE that has watched Von Miller play so far as a rookie.

VON MILLER INSTEAD OF DAREUS, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Just wanted to see if that makes the point more.)

[claymore]

no question-- you can just write that in stone right now. . . i think you can more or less assume we'll be taking a QB with our first pick, and offensive line and cornerback will be fighting each other for priority. . . DT will be filled the same way it's always filled, with whatever scrub retreads we can get cheapest. . . i can't for the life of me figure out why we love that organizational model so much when we keep getting gashed, but for whatever reason, that's our style. . . .

QB is the most important position. I hope we are in a position to take a great prospect next year.

DL is a solid need, but I honestly feel we need to work on QB, OL, and RB more than DL now.

Maybe a new OC, and offense could mask some of our deficiencies. We could hold a team 13 points, and our stank ass offense could only put up 3 in trash time.

[Dreadnought]

QB is the most important position. I hope we are in a position to take a great prospect next year.

DL is a solid need, but I honestly feel we need to work on QB, OL, and RB more than DL now.

Maybe a new OC, and offense could mask some of our deficiencies. We could hold a team 13 points, and our stank ass offense could only put up 3 in trash time.

I am OK with drafting a QB in 2014 as needed...after we attend to other stuff

[dogfish]

I am OK with drafting a QB in 2014 as needed...after we attend to other stuff

you better get okay with drafting one in 2012, big guy. . . . :laugh:

[silkamilkamonico]

I am OK with drafting a QB in 2014 as needed...after we attend to other stuff

Why would you want to wait if we have the opportunity this spring? Time and time again we see the great QB's like Brady, Manning, Rogers, Brees, and Rivers completely shred even the best defenses in the NFL. What good is addressing the complete defense going to be if those QB's are still going to shred it? We are not going to outscore anyone with our offense.

I say we go out and get the next great QB and just start outscoring people. At least we will get more wins.

[G_Money]

Miller is gonna be a long-time Pro Bowler and havok-wreaker. I don't have any problem with his selection or the idea that we drafted the best-player-available.

Moore and Franklin are more questionable as being more valuable than a DT. Moore's a good safety and Franklin is probably gonna make a decent guard - but I would posit that a wall in the middle of the defense is more important than a cover safety to us at this point.

I'm not angry about the draft, though - I am a little more peeved that Draft + FA + trades + waiver pickups netted us exactly no one I expect to be a plus contributor going forward. We have a bunch of JAGs in the middle of the defense, as we have since forever, and I'm not looking forward to having to work around that gaping wound yet again.

~G

[rationalfan]

i'm so sick of these "the team needs a dlineman" threads. mostly, because they often are populated with comments suggesting the broncos haven't tried to get a good one.

the problem is, EVERY TEAM wants a good dlineman. there's a reason the ngotas and rajis of the draft world never fell to the broncos in the draft. there's a reason guys like ngota never hit free agency until their careers are washed up. teams don't let guys like that slide past them in the draft or with expiring contracts.

yes, denver has been trying to fill holes on the dline with journeyman and unfulfilled potential. but some of you make it seem like it's an easy process to find a franchise nosetackle. you either get lucky and find one or you don't. if you find that fortune, you don't let it go to sign with Denver in free agency (which also means most of the dlinemen in free agency aren't as good as their reputation).

as for dareus vs. miller; let's talk about that in three years and see which team got the better player. it's too early to determine right now.

[silkamilkamonico]

Miller is gonna be a long-time Pro Bowler and havok-wreaker. I don't have any problem with his selection or the idea that we drafted the best-player-available.

Moore and Franklin are more questionable as being more valuable than a DT. Moore's a good safety and Franklin is probably gonna make a decent guard - but I would posit that a wall in the middle of the defense is more important than a cover safety to us at this point.



~G

Franklin will stay at RT and will be a good one. He was considered a value pick when we drafted him with considerable potential and upside. It was his first game and he will be fine. He's already a very good run blocker who has the potential to be great after he's polished and his pass protection will improve. You don't get many rookie olinemen who play right away and don't struggle with one or the other.

[BigDaddyBronco]

i'm so sick of these "the team needs a dlineman" threads. mostly, because they often are populated with comments suggesting the broncos haven't tried to get a good one.

the problem is, EVERY TEAM wants a good dlineman. there's a reason the ngotas and rajis of the draft world never fell to the broncos in the draft. there's a reason guys like ngota never hit free agency until their careers are washed up. teams don't let guys like that slide past them in the draft or with expiring contracts.

yes, denver has been trying to fill holes on the dline with journeyman and unfulfilled potential. but some of you make it seem like it's an easy process to find a franchise nosetackle. you either get lucky and find one or you don't. if you find that fortune, you don't let it go to sign with Denver in free agency (which also means most of the dlinemen in free agency aren't as good as their reputation).

as for dareus vs. miller; let's talk about that in three years and see which team got the better player. it's too early to determine right now.

Yea, that is why you draft them when you can. Maybe Dareus will be a bust, doubt it, but maybe. Maybe Miller will be LT, doubt it, but maybe.

[G_Money]

Franklin will stay at RT and will be a good one. He was considered a value pick when we drafted him with considerable potential and upside. It was his first game and he will be fine. He's already a very good run blocker who has the potential to be great after he's polished and his pass protection will improve. You don't get many rookie olinemen who play right away and don't struggle with one or the other.

Agreed on the everybody-struggles part - I just don't think he's ever gonna be a good enough pass blocker. I didn't think so in college, FWIW. And if for some reason we DO go with Tebow, then Franklin's definitely not the guy we're relying on to protect his blind side. IMO anyway.

I think like Robert Gallery he moves to guard and does just fine as a road grader. There's nothing wrong with that.

And rationalfan,

If you know that good DL are hard to get later in the draft, and that no team will let a good one out of their sight once they have one (so you can't use free agency to get one)...

Then why isn't drafting one or more early in the draft viewed as basically the only solution to this problem? :confused:

~G

[Dreadnought]

you better get okay with drafting one in 2012, big guy. . . . :laugh:

That will enrage me, Dog. It will be blind rage like nothing since we dumped Cutler


Why would you want to wait if we have the opportunity this spring? Time and time again we see the great QB's like Brady, Manning, Rogers, Brees, and Rivers completely shred even the best defenses in the NFL. What good is addressing the complete defense going to be if those QB's are still going to shred it? We are not going to outscore anyone with our offense.

I say we go out and get the next great QB and just start outscoring people. At least we will get more wins.

Because we just used a #1, and I don't think we can write that one off until after the 2013 season, 2012 at the earliest, without being stupid and unserious. We have too many other problems. We have a kid on the roster who might be the answer, and we'd be pure morons not to give him a shot...unless, McDaniels style, we have a management team too arrogant and too in love with their own plans and vision to be willing to give him a shot. If they set him up for failure then they should be fired on the spot. If they draft a QB in 2012 they should be fired on the spot. Real simple.

[Ravage!!!]

Because we just used a #1, and I don't think we can write that one off until after the 2013 season, 2012 at the earliest, without being stupid and unserious. We have too many other problems. We have a kid on the roster who might be the answer, and we'd be pure morons not to give him a shot...unless, McDaniels style, we have a management team too arrogant and too in love with their own plans and vision to be willing to give him a shot. If they set him up for failure then they should be fired on the spot. If they draft a QB in 2012 they should be fired on the spot. Real simple.

I'm going to disagree, but understand your logic. But the reality is, we didn't use a first round pick on a real 1st round selection. We used several picks to take a QB that shouldn't have been taken that early.

If we have the chance to take a top QB in the draft, one that is rated high in a top QB class, then I absolutely think we pull that trigger. If not, then how long do you wait before youhave the chance to get another shot at that kind of QB? Ask Buffalo, or San Fran, or Miami what life is like after losing your HoF QB and drifting (which is again more salt in the wound for trading what we had).

If we have a shot at one of the top QBs in this draft, we ABSOLUTELY have to take that chance. The position is just too valuable not to.

[dogfish]

That will enrage me, Dog. It will be blind rage like nothing since we dumped Cutler



Because we just used a #1, and I don't think we can write that one off until after the 2013 season, 2012 at the earliest, without being stupid and unserious. We have too many other problems. We have a kid on the roster who might be the answer, and we'd be pure morons not to give him a shot...unless, McDaniels style, we have a management team too arrogant and too in love with their own plans and vision to be willing to give him a shot. If they set him up for failure then they should be fired on the spot. If they draft a QB in 2012 they should be fired on the spot. Real simple.

these coming years aren't going to be easy on you, my friend. . . . ;)


i recommend laughter rather than rage-- it's just a football team, they're not worth losin' yer sanity over. . . .

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm going to disagree, but understand your logic. But the reality is, we didn't use a first round pick on a real 1st round selection. We used several picks to take a QB that shouldn't have been taken that early.

Couldn't agree more. TT was listed as nothing more than a long term project, should not have been taken in the first round, and is not even close to being a consensus franchise QB. Not to mention he has shown no improvement and has apparently even gone as far as regressed if he almost lost his job to Quinn.

Luck, Jones, and even Barkley will be a consensus potential franchise QB worthy of a top half of first round selection. Luck/Jones will go top 5. Sure there is an unknown, but I'm willing to take those odds of getting a Ryan/Cutler/Rivers/Manning/Brady/Rodgers type player instead of Chad Pennington/Chad Henne type that TT seems to be working towards.

[Traveler]

I'm going to disagree, but understand your logic. But the reality is, we didn't use a first round pick on a real 1st round selection. We used several picks to take a QB that shouldn't have been taken that early.

If we have the chance to take a top QB in the draft, one that is rated high in a top QB class, then I absolutely think we pull that trigger. If not, then how long do you wait before youhave the chance to get another shot at that kind of QB? Ask Buffalo, or San Fran, or Miami what life is like after losing your HoF QB and drifting (which is again more salt in the wound for trading what we had).

If we have a shot at one of the top QBs in this draft, we ABSOLUTELY have to take that chance. The position is just too valuable not to.

That truly is a no-brainer. Gotta make that choice.

[Dreadnought]

I'm going to disagree, but understand your logic. But the reality is, we didn't use a first round pick on a real 1st round selection. We used several picks to take a QB that shouldn't have been taken that early.

If we have the chance to take a top QB in the draft, one that is rated high in a top QB class, then I absolutely think we pull that trigger. If not, then how long do you wait before youhave the chance to get another shot at that kind of QB? Ask Buffalo, or San Fran, or Miami what life is like after losing your HoF QB and drifting (which is again more salt in the wound for trading what we had).

If we have a shot at one of the top QBs in this draft, we ABSOLUTELY have to take that chance. The position is just too valuable not to.

There is some sense in that, but drafting a QB #1 is no guarantee at all. hell, I hate drafting any offensive skill position guys in the first round as a rule (see also Moreno, Knowshon.) I don't trust college draft gurus even a little bit, and the success rate on #1 picked QB's is a bit sketchy - and no, I don't necessarily buy that Luck is somehow all that different than, say, Tim Couch.

I'm just angry and cynical now, Rav. It began with losing to Buffalo in 2008, and got that much worse when Shanahan got fired. I don't need to explain what McDaniels did to our souls. I remember sitting in a bar in FLA with Claymore and Yarddog one Thursday night in Nov. 08, and we watched the brilliant young offense of the future come from behind against the Browns. Now to watch Kyle Orton and Knowshon Moreno stink it up against the loathsome Raiders is a bitter pill.

[DenBronx]

For the life of me i cant understand why we are going on what? 6-7 years now KNOWING where one of our biggest weaknesses are but we keep ignoring it.

Someone in the front office belongs in an insane assylum.


Fans have been begging for a DT for years and years. I quit dreaming about it in the 2008 offseason because clearly the Broncos dont value trench warriors.

[dogfish]

Someone in the front office belongs in an insane assylum.


Fans have been begging for a DT for years and years. I quit dreaming about it in the 2008 offseason because clearly the Broncos dont value trench warriors.

i gave up after '09, and it's a good thing. . . the "old me" would haveburned half of denver down when we passed on DTs in this year's draft. . . the new, resigned me damn well knew we weren't taking any DLs, and didn't even bother getting upset. . . for whatever reason, it's just how we roll. . .

we could have easily landed brian bulaga and lamarr houston last year (how much better would we be now with another versatile, nasty, talented lineman on each unit?), but mcdaniels and the dumbshit pizza boy had to have the shiny QB and WR. . . and we absolutely insist on building the defense from the back forward, which just isn't working for us. . . hopefully fox can get things going in the right direction-- if he doesn't, a couple of years from now we'll have somebody else in here drafting to replace the likes of rahim moore and nate irving. . .

"they don't fit the scheme, and we need to find some players to make an immediate impact on that turrible defense"

because we never have a foundation, all we do is churn the back end of the defense every few years. . . i was SO hoping elway would be the guy to come in and just start from the beginning and do it right, but it's more 'backers and safeties-- and next year it will be more corners. . .


*shrugs*

[hotcarl]

"trench warriors" sounds pretty dumb imo

[dogfish]

"trench warriors" sounds pretty dumb imo

says the guy named after taking a dump. . . .


:welcome:

[Ziggy]

There's nothing wrong with the way Bunkley is playing. He began dominating early in the game, and Oakland simply double teamed him most of the rest of the way out. With no talent at UT, there was no answer. I'd like to see the Broncos re-sign Bunk to an extension and build the line along with him. At worst, he's a quality starter on 1st and 2nd downs.

Mays looked like the Joe Mays of early pre-season, taking bad angles and jumping into the wrong gaps.

Franklin needs to be moved to guard where he has a chance to develop and dominate. It's his natural position. Beadles will be out of the league in 2-3 years. Better to have a chance at having a good LG and crappy RT than having a crappy LG and crappy RT.

I don't have a problem with Kuper, Clady, or Doom. That makes 4-5 solid peices of a 9 man trench. We're 5 short with the hope that Franklin will develop into a stud. I think it's possible if he's moved to guard.

Larsen needs to be replaced. Polite is out there and would be a huge upgrade. There's others that would work as stop gaps for this season, but I doubt the FO wants to pay the money for a bunch of veteran stop gaps. Next year's draft will be critical this team. We're already down a pick from the Quinn trade, and one other. This rebuild is going to take some time folks.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

There's nothing wrong with the way Bunkley is playing. He began dominating early in the game, and Oakland simply double teamed him most of the rest of the way out. With no talent at UT, there was no answer. I'd like to see the Broncos re-sign Bunk to an extension and build the line along with him. At worst, he's a quality starter on 1st and 2nd downs.

Mays looked like the Joe Mays of early pre-season, taking bad angles and jumping into the wrong gaps.

Franklin needs to be moved to guard where he has a chance to develop and dominate. It's his natural position. Beadles will be out of the league in 2-3 years. Better to have a chance at having a good LG and crappy RT than having a crappy LG and crappy RT.

I don't have a problem with Kuper, Clady, or Doom. That makes 4-5 solid peices of a 9 man trench. We're 5 short with the hope that Franklin will develop into a stud. I think it's possible if he's moved to guard.

Larsen needs to be replaced. Polite is out there and would be a huge upgrade. There's others that would work as stop gaps for this season, but I doubt the FO wants to pay the money for a bunch of veteran stop gaps. Next year's draft will be critical this team. We're already down a pick from the Quinn trade, and one other. This rebuild is going to take some time folks.

You're preaching to the choir, brother! Hallelujah! Amen!

[hotcarl]

says the guy named after taking a dump. . . .


:welcome:

ur the trench warrior if u know what I mean

[dogfish]

ur the trench warrior if u know what I mean

go rusty trombone yourself!



:mad: :welcome:

[BroncoNut]

ur the trench warrior if u know what i mean

lol. Omg.