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haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 11:30 AM
This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

I do have some questions.

1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.

MOtorboat
12-05-2008, 11:43 AM
2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

For the Broncos...play action, definitely, but if a safety is cheating up and with Cutler's arm, he can audible Royal into it, it would work too.

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

Probably the weakside linebacker and the backside defensive end, once he makes sure the quarterback didn't make the fake.

I think I can answer those two for you Harold.

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 11:47 AM
2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

For the Broncos...play action, definitely, but if a safety is cheating up and with Cutler's arm, he can audible Royal into it, it would work too.

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

Probably the weakside linebacker and the backside defensive end, once he makes sure the quarterback didn't make the fake.

I think I can answer those two for you Harold.

playaction goes without saying. Most big plays are results of PA and the DB misreading. But I suspect a post route is extremely lethal in man alignments more so than in zones. I know one of the reason for the cover 2 and especially TB cover two is the fact that it takes out the big plays esp. by post routes.

In any case, thanks for taking the time to answer.

NightTrainLayne
12-05-2008, 11:47 AM
This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

I do have some questions.

1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.


I'll take a stab at #1 and #4, since MB hit #2 & #3.

1. In a third and long it's difficult to attack a zone for a first down. That's why most teams go to some form of zone or zone/man in those types of situations.

4. I'm not sure it's really helpful to think of it in these terms. For each different defensive line-up and/or defender technique being used each route will have differing success rates. A sign of a good Offensive team and Offensive coaching is to take advantage of particular defensive alignments and techniques by calling the particular route that exploits it.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 11:49 AM
I remember I made this thread on the freak a while ago and it worked for about 5 minutes and then it got taken into broncos talk, and then into bullshit. It would be nice to keep this open because I loved that thread while it lasted.

NightTrainLayne
12-05-2008, 11:50 AM
playaction goes without saying. Most big plays are results of PA and the DB misreading. But I suspect a post route is extremely lethal in man alignments more so than in zones. I know one of the reason for the cover 2 and especially TB cover two is the fact that it takes out the big plays esp. by post routes.

In any case, thanks for taking the time to answer.

This is why the PA worked so well in that situation. Robinson was cheating up to stop the run (TD Baby!), and got caught. He had the deep zone responsibility there, and let Smith get behind him.

A post can also work well in zones if the QB can time the throw to the receiver when he is "between zones" or between defenders so to speak.

However, if a defender plays a man, bump and run technique, and stays inside of the receiver, then it a post probably isn't going to work so well.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 11:51 AM
And since it was the one I can answer best due to short amount of time to type, to #3, when I played backside contain was always done by backside linebacker.

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 11:52 AM
I'll take a stab at #1 and #4, since MB hit #2 & #3.

1. In a third and long it's difficult to attack a zone for a first down. That's why most teams go to some form of zone or zone/man in those types of situations.

4. I'm not sure it's really helpful to think of it in these terms. For each different defensive line-up and/or defender technique being used each route will have differeng success rates. A sign of a good Offensive team and Offensive coaching is to take advantage of particular defensive alignments and techniques by calling the particular route that exploits it.

But what routes are usually run. I read somewhere that the deep comeback and the ten yards out are often used to attack zones.
In any case, if you were the coach what would you play?

4. But that is exactly what Peyton Manning is a master of.
They line up early, and wait until they give away their scheme. When they do, he has 2-5 or more plays to audible into.
For instance he often audibles into a slant if there is signs of lb blitzing.
The same goes for Brady.

Thanks for the answer, and as I said this is something I dont really know too well so I am to an extent playing the devils advocate.

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 12:12 PM
Just found a nice site with some great images of the passing trees.

http://gobluemichiganwolverine.blogspot.com/2008/05/coaches-corner-basic-passing-tree.html


http://www.usafootball.com/resource-center/coaching/coaches-guide/live-plays/USAF018.jpg

http://www.usafootball.com/resource-center/coaching/coaches-guide/live-plays/USAF020.jpg

http://www.usafootball.com/resource-center/coaching/coaches-guide/live-plays/USAF019.jpg

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 12:17 PM
Also if you ever wondered how the zone blocking running is done, Brian Billick at nfl.com videos has some really nice explanations. Clinton Portis as well explains in a video the lethality of it, when to cut back, the reason for cut-blocking the back side and more.

bengaaaaals1688
12-05-2008, 02:17 PM
In my opinion, the best time to run a post (this only works with a WR-QB combo that have complete faith in each other) is actually against a zone, preferably a Cover 2, or a zone blitz. There will always be a spot open in the deep middle of the field in those types of zones. For a QB-WR tandem that doesn't have that faith, the best is when it's straight man coverage, and one of the safeties is in man as well.

Backside contain is typically done by the backside DE, which is why people always get on them for driving down the line instead of just coming around from the back.

As for the best route to run on a 3rd and long against a zone, it all depends on the zone. A cover 2 zone will leave a huge hole in between the flat zone and the deep zone because there aren't any outside zones in that coverage, so a corner route or deep out can be killers. In a Cover 3, it's a bit more difficult, but you should be able to find the same openings because they again only have deep, middle, and flat zones. However, in a Cover 3 it's more difficult to get the ball there because a CB is usually running back to cover his third of the deep zone.

Lonestar
12-05-2008, 02:21 PM
I remember I made this thread on the freak a while ago and it worked for about 5 minutes and then it got taken into broncos talk, and then into bullshit. It would be nice to keep this open because I loved that thread while it lasted.

Any chance of a X and O's type chalk board type display that can show those that are not up on all the current terms and plays??

I'm sure the kids and women folk would learn something from it.. For that matter some of the significant others might just learn something from it..

Perhaps even getting a utube piece of a few plays and dissecting it on the chalk board..



we could ask the coach on certain plays.. to break down what happened..

Anyone up for something like that?

LRtagger
12-05-2008, 02:42 PM
1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.


The best way to attack zone coverage is to recognize it at the LOS before the ball is snapped. Your best bet is to not have a specific route, but rather a route with a read. Your WR and QB should be able to both read defensive zones and the WR should be able to find an open spot in the zone and the QB should be able to find the WR. A QB should be able to look at a zone defense and know where their WR is going to sit down. This is why it is critical for defenses to show different looks even if it is running the same coverage. This is a big reason why our defense fails IMO because we are not good at disguising our plays or showing different looks.

It is difficult on 3rd and long, obviously because not only do you have to find a soft spot in the zone, but you have to be aware of the first down marker. That is why Cover 2/3 is a popular call on 3rd down. Unless you have a QB who can fit the ball into tight spaces or a WR who can break tackles, it is difficult to convert a 3rd and long unless a defender makes a mistake.

You will often times see teams take the underneath to a RB because your RB is almost always open out of the backfield with a Cover 2/3 and your RB has the best chance of breaking a couple tackles to get to the 1st down marker. You will often see a RB sit in the middle of the field on 3rd and lets say 13. It is pretty common to see the RB pickup 9-12 yards and leave the offense with a 4th and 1 or 2.

If it is late in a game where you know the offense is in a 4-down situation, you may see less Cover 2/3 because you dont want to leave them with an easy 4th down conversion. OTOH, you may see a defense not even consider the first down marker if a TD is needed to win and there is very little time on the clock in which case you will see a very deep prevent defense.

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 02:49 PM
Any chance of a X and O's type chalk board type display that can show those that are not up on all the current terms and plays??

I'm sure the kids and women folk would learn something from it.. For that matter some of the significant others might just learn something from it..

Perhaps even getting a utube piece of a few plays and dissecting it on the chalk board..



we could ask the coach on certain plays.. to break down what happened..

Anyone up for something like that?

what coach are you talking about?
I am all in for your suggestions. What this site and most football sites need are in depth football discussions.
Kinda like when people ram in statements like "We should run more", but never how we should be doing the running.

I would love for this thread to be stickied so it doesnt end up being hijacked or lost(creating another similar thread time and again)

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 02:54 PM
Another thing that most people misunderstand is the west-coast offense.

I am sure I could find some articles if anybody wants it, but basically the short passes are not the intent of WCO. It is the result.

The WCO uses timing patterns which are governed by the synchronization(right word?) between the QB and the receivers feet. For instance when the QB sets down his feet in a five step drop back, the intent is that his first read should have his outside feet in sync with the qb.
The next read is on the next feet who should also be in sync.
That is why true west-coast offenses never used the shotgun. In fact Shanahan is famous for him bringing in the SG in the WCO variation he runs.

fcspikeit
12-05-2008, 05:31 PM
This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

I do have some questions.

1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

Here is what I would do,

Send one outside WR on the go pulling the FS (or the better cover S) to the outside. Send the other outside WR on a deep post, pulling the SS pack into deep coverage. Send the slot WR on a short post underneath the SS on the same side as the deep post. Have your TE run an outside fade underneath the go rout. Then finally have your HB brake off into coverage 5 yards up, in the middle of the field.

The QB only has to make 2 reads and he will know where to go with the ball. First he has to watch the S's if they both brake on the deep routs the middle slant and outside fade will be open underneath. Which one he goes will depend on the alignment of their defender, that is read before the snap. For instance, if the defender on the TE is off the line looking into the backfield, you know the TE will free up on the outside fade. The ball can and should be put up while the defender turns his back to the QB to brake with the TE.

If either Safety's stay underneath the QB has to go deep, he will have man to man.

The other read the QB must make is the middle LB. If he backs up, taking away the underneath slant the QB has to throw the outside fade or drop the ball off to the RB who is now underneath the Mike.

There are many other formations you could run here but with our 3 WR sets this would work. The important thing to remember about the cover 2 zone is where the open spots are. They are, 10-20 yards on the outside and 7 - 15 yards on the inside. You can move each defender about 7 yards in any direction to open things up. If the zone defenders wont move, you have to throw it over their head, forcing them to commit one way or the other

2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

Against cover 1. Atl was in cover 1 (1 deep S) when we threw that TD. The cover 1 is meant to take away the middle post, but you can freeze him running a rout underneath while throwing a deep post over his head. you can also beat the cover 1 with deep routs to the outside, he can't cover both sides. The QB does this with his eyes by looking down one WR then coming back to the other side. Favre tried this when Bly got the INT. He looked the cover 1 S off, then came back to the other side on the go rout. The problem was that he didn't read Bly correctly, Bly was up in bump and run, (the best time to throw the fly/go rout) right before the snap he backed up, Favre never seen this, the WR had no chance to get by him. Favre should have thrown to the TE underneath as Bly sold out on the deep rout.

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

That would depend on what defense your in, but its almost always the Will because the stretch is almost always ran to the TE side. Therefore the Will has the backside containment. On that play I believe it was Larson because Jones never got to the backside, he cutback hard up the middle of the line, Larson over Perseid the run and didn't contain his inside gap.

4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.

It is a game of angles, you have to throw it over or in front of the defender. Half the battle is reading where the defenders are going to be. If they drop in short zone you have to throw it over them, if they drop off deep you have to throw it underneath them. That sounds simple but it's the best way of looking at it. No matter what, there will be holes in the zone. Cutler has been working on throwing the middle range pass with more air under it. He used to throw it so flat you would see a man in zone 10 yards underneath the play get the pick. I have seen him more then a couple times this year, drop the ball into the receiver on those intermediate 10-20 yard routs..

I hope that helps? :D

elsid13
12-05-2008, 05:58 PM
This is good image that we borrowed over at the mane with respect to zone blocking. http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2007/08/05/1186329481_8559.gif

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 06:23 PM
That would depend on what defense your in, but its almost always the Will because the stretch is almost always ran to the TE side. Therefore the Will has the backside containment. On that play I believe it was Larson because Jones never got to the backside, he cutback hard up the middle of the line, Larson over Perseid the run and didn't contain his inside gap.

Now, I dont remmeber the play bit for bit, but if I recall correctly, the whole play shifted left, and Jones cutback right. When the whole line surges left, the MLB is supposed to follow and cover his gap. The backside OLB on that play, (i thought winborn?) was cheating dangerously close to the middle of the play prior to snap, and if I recall correctly, Larsen even gave him a bit of a shove the other way prior to snap. In that situation where the entire push is to one side, the OLB (if it is a linebacker in fact that has hte contain) takes it, not the mlb. The MLB is NEVER contain in a 4-3 or any other defense for that matter. But all the blame doesn't go on the linebackers at that point. On a play like that where there's a major cutback (not just a typical find a hole in the line going the opposite direction), the safety is also supposed to be a contain. Fox bit hard on what it looks like he thought was a sweep to the left, because he ran MILES out of the direction of the ballcarrier.

fcspikeit
12-05-2008, 06:48 PM
Now, I dont remmeber the play bit for bit, but if I recall correctly, the whole play shifted left, and Jones cutback right. When the whole line surges left, the MLB is supposed to follow and cover his gap. The backside OLB on that play, (i thought winborn?) was cheating dangerously close to the middle of the play prior to snap, and if I recall correctly, Larsen even gave him a bit of a shove the other way prior to snap. In that situation where the entire push is to one side, the OLB (if it is a linebacker in fact that has hte contain) takes it, not the mlb. The MLB is NEVER contain in a 4-3 or any other defense for that matter. But all the blame doesn't go on the linebackers at that point. On a play like that where there's a major cutback (not just a typical find a hole in the line going the opposite direction), the safety is also supposed to be a contain. Fox bit hard on what it looks like he thought was a sweep to the left, because he ran MILES out of the direction of the ballcarrier.

I agree the OLB is responsible for the backside, on the stretch. My point was that the play never made it to the backside. The run came through the middle of the line. They did all shift to the left, then Jones cut back to the right. However, he cut back between the C and T, I believe the RG pulled to the left. So who's play was it to cover that gap? If the OLB pulled far enough inside to cover it he wouldn't have containment on the outside anymore.

Beings the runner came between both OLB's, one would think the inside gab responsibility would fall the the Mike.

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 07:20 PM
I agree the OLB is responsible for the backside, on the stretch. My point was that the play never made it to the backside. The run came through the middle of the line. They did all shift to the left, then Jones cut back to the right. However, he cut back between the C and T, I believe the RG pulled to the left. So who's play was it to cover that gap? If the OLB pulled far enough inside to cover it he wouldn't have containment on the outside anymore.

Beings the runner came between both OLB's, one would think the inside gab responsibility would fall the the Mike.

it looked more like a counterplay than a cutback on a stretch.
If I recall correctly that is.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:38 PM
I agree the OLB is responsible for the backside, on the stretch. My point was that the play never made it to the backside. The run came through the middle of the line. They did all shift to the left, then Jones cut back to the right. However, he cut back between the C and T, I believe the RG pulled to the left. So who's play was it to cover that gap? If the OLB pulled far enough inside to cover it he wouldn't have containment on the outside anymore.

Beings the runner came between both OLB's, one would think the inside gab responsibility would fall the the Mike.

Untrue. watch the play again. How could it possibly be the MLB's responsibility to cover that gap when the OLB is still outside of him? Play looked like this:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g117/zweems56/jonesrun.jpg?t=1228523875
The OLB overpursued left side, and had to dive to his left, the right side, to miss the tackle. OLB overpursued on that one BIGTIME, and As you can see, so did fox from the safety spot

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw6q3OOX6Sc

here's the video. second play. and ther'es a replay after that. The announcer actually calls it correctly by the way

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:45 PM
The running back cutback through the 4 gap, between the guard and tackle, who sealed their linemen one to each side to open the hole. normally thats the MLB's territory, but on this particular play, the OLB, Winborn, cheated up into the 2 gap, thus breaking his contain as the running back went through the 4 gap. Winborn actually started heading toward his proper gap, but then cheated into the two and got beat to the outside. He dove and barely got a hand on him while Jones ran untouched to the endzone, with tons of help from fox's overpursuit for that matter.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:45 PM
Oh, and I apologize for my lack of paint skills :lol:

MOtorboat
12-05-2008, 07:46 PM
Oh, and I apologize for my lack of paint skills :lol:

yeah, they pretty much suck...

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:50 PM
yeah, they pretty much suck...

Suck it trebek. Maybe I have an uncontrolable shaking of the hands. ******* *****!

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 07:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw6q3OOX6Sc

here's the video. second play. and ther'es a replay after that. The announcer actually calls it correctly by the way

oh yeah. it is definately not a counter. Looks like a stretch play.I am so definatley in the wrong there.

MOtorboat
12-05-2008, 07:54 PM
Suck it trebek. Maybe I have an uncontrolable shaking of the hands. ******* *****!

Use the "Alphabet" function, moron...

:wave:

OK, I'm done derailing this thread now...

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:54 PM
oh yeah. it is definately not a counter. Looks like a stretch play.I am so definatley in the wrong there.

No. It starts out like a stretch on the left side. Check out what the right guard and tackle do. They seal to either side creating a perfect hole. But either way it doesnt matter. The olb on each respective side is going to be the contain for that side regardless. Kind of like no one should ever ge tpast the safety, no one should ever get outside of the OLB unless they get outrun on a stretch.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:55 PM
Use the "Alphabet" function, moron...

:wave:

OK, I'm done derailing this thread now...

I dont use paint.

MOtorboat
12-05-2008, 07:56 PM
oh yeah. it is definately not a counter. Looks like a stretch play.I am so definatley in the wrong there.

It definitely wasn't a stretch play.

That looked like a designed cut back. I don't think the Jets are employing a zone-blocking scheme there, but its similar. That was a straight-up blocking scheme (but maybe not zone) and Thomas just picking his hole, and it might have even been a natural cutback, like a "belly" play.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 07:58 PM
It definitely wasn't a stretch play.

That looked like a designed cut back. I don't think the Jets are employing a zone-blocking scheme there, but its similar. That was a straight-up blocking scheme (but maybe not zone) and Thomas just picking his hole, and it might have even been a natural cutback, like a "belly" play.

A belly is really what it looked like.

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 08:01 PM
A belly is really what it looked like.

cool another thing to learn. What is a belly? Please be specific.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 08:03 PM
back to paint =p

BroncoTech
12-05-2008, 08:03 PM
I thought the telecaster's description on that play was spot on, Fox bit on the pass and was 15 yards out of position. Good info guys, I love this stuff.

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 08:07 PM
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g117/zweems56/counterbelly.jpg?t=1228525559

Left being counter, right being belly. the \ through the run is where the ball gets handed off. On the counter its a sharp cut back to the other side, receiving hte ball after the cut. Belly is a rounder cut, cutting after receiving the ball and after you get past the quarterback

haroldthebarrel
12-05-2008, 08:07 PM
It definitely wasn't a stretch play.

That looked like a designed cut back. I don't think the Jets are employing a zone-blocking scheme there, but its similar. That was a straight-up blocking scheme (but maybe not zone) and Thomas just picking his hole, and it might have even been a natural cutback, like a "belly" play.

Are you sure about that. The TE and RT double the end. The guard goes one on one vs the DT, and the center and guard doubles the other DT. The LT is one on one vs the end. That is pretty much the definition of a zone stretch play according to the image before.

MOtorboat
12-05-2008, 09:14 PM
Are you sure about that. The TE and RT double the end. The guard goes one on one vs the DT, and the center and guard doubles the other DT. The LT is one on one vs the end. That is pretty much the definition of a zone stretch play according to the image before.

Here's what I saw, Harold...I saw the defense flowing like a stretch, but the offense playing a straight up-blocking scheme, and because Denver was cheating the safety and the wide receiver goes in motion, all Thomas had to do was beat one guy. I think it was a combination of Denver's defense flowing too much with where they thought the play might go, and good straight-up blocking (though not necessarily zone blocking) from the Jets.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r250/clapton_2/ThomasJonesTD.jpg

fcspikeit
12-05-2008, 10:34 PM
Untrue. watch the play again. How could it possibly be the MLB's responsibility to cover that gap when the OLB is still outside of him? Play looked like this:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g117/zweems56/jonesrun.jpg?t=1228523875
The OLB overpursued left side, and had to dive to his left, the right side, to miss the tackle. OLB overpursued on that one BIGTIME, and As you can see, so did fox from the safety spot

I thought Winborn got boxed out on the outside, but your right he clearly lost containment on the outside by over pursuing to the middle.. Larson over persuade to the right as well. In fact, even if Winborn had stayed home and hit the 4 gap, Jones could have came through the 2.

Either way, it is his job to force everything back to the inside. He clearly didn't do that. :salute:

Zweems56
12-05-2008, 11:36 PM
I thought Winborn got boxed out on the outside, but your right he clearly lost containment on the outside by over pursuing to the middle.. Larson over persuade to the right as well. In fact, even if Winborn had stayed home and hit the 4 gap, Jones could have came through the 2.

Either way, it is his job to force everything back to the inside. He clearly didn't do that. :salute:

EXACTLY. well said. I used to play Weak side, and thats really a whole lot of the position's point. Your presence should force them inside or put them on their ass.

Dreadnought
12-06-2008, 12:25 AM
Great Great stuff here guys, all around. Nice work.

Superchop 7
12-06-2008, 02:46 AM
Ya know Harold, I expected a thread like this from you,

The first line of defense is "dictate".

The second line of defense is.......

Show the QB a weakness.....

Then take it away.

WARHORSE
12-06-2008, 02:47 AM
(sigh)

Dean
12-06-2008, 09:46 AM
IMO the TD looked like it was meant to be a simple off tackle play. The Jets doubled the point of attack. Flanker mtion was to influence the safety/OLB while the FBs job was to kick out in the event of a stunt and turn up into the hole if no one appeared. However, the Denver had the play completely stuffed wo the RB cut back.

The defensive left end was completely neutralized. The D left tackle stepped to the B gap but feeling pressure tried to get "across the face" of the blocker. The Sam LB influenced I believe by the FB pull stepped inside. The problem was that he had his outside foot up making it hard for him to recover to the outside when the TB suddenly appeared in the B gap.

The DT was doing exactly what you teach but the DE and OLB made a play out of a desperation cutback. Had the DE got off the block at all or had the Sam kept contain (both of which I am sure they are continually drilled on) it would have been on to the next play with little or no gain.

haroldthebarrel
12-06-2008, 10:08 AM
Here's what I saw, Harold...I saw the defense flowing like a stretch, but the offense playing a straight up-blocking scheme, and because Denver was cheating the safety and the wide receiver goes in motion, all Thomas had to do was beat one guy. I think it was a combination of Denver's defense flowing too much with where they thought the play might go, and good straight-up blocking (though not necessarily zone blocking) from the Jets.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r250/clapton_2/ThomasJonesTD.jpg

The right tackle and TE doubled on the outside end, creating an inside seam through the right B gap. That is why I dont think it was a straight up blocking scheme since then there would have been not two double teams at the line.

This is a very interesting and learning discussion with you though.

elsid13
12-06-2008, 10:46 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5913880/West-Coast-Offense-Simplified

The football outsider did a nice writeup for folks.


Bill Walsh's West Coast offense was the blueprint for about half of the current NFL teams. For its time, it was revolutionary. In a salary-cap era, it's ingenious. Everyone who follows football has heard the term and has at least a vague idea of what it means. Though like a lot of things in the NFL, it's often brought up by announcers, while never being thoroughly explained.

The entire offense is based off a series of quick, highly accurate passes. I tried to show this with passing numbers for yards per completion that didn't take into account yards after catch, but those numbers aren't in the public domain. Instead, look at completion percentage. San Francisco quarterbacks Joe Montana and Steve Young each had a career completion percentage of around 64%. Some seasons, they were over 70% completion percentage. Compare this to quarterbacks that played in more "vertical," or downfield, passing offenses � John Elway (57%), Dan Marino (59%), and Ken Stabler (59%).

The passing game normally will substitute for the running game with one basic principle � it's easier to run down field and gain yards if you just cut out all the middle men and completely circumvent your O-line and their D-line. That way, you don't have to look for holes to run through. An average running game is normally needed to keep a defense "honest" and allow teams to run the short passes. Slants, quick outs, and curls are all mainstays of the West Coast.

This is one of the reasons why receivers in the NFL have been gradually getting larger and larger. In a West Coast offense, receivers have to be durable as they might be getting the ball eight times a game. You are also, in many ways, asking the receivers to double as running backs. If you can get a big receiver open for three yards and he can run over the cornerback, you can get a decent-sized gain. If he can run over the corner and the safety, you'll wind up with a huge gain. This is why Yards After Catch is such an important statistic in a West Coast offense.

The pro formation was designed specifically for the West Coast. In a basic pro, the five linemen and a tight end are on the line of scrimmage. There are two running backs in the backfield, lined up several yards behind the guards. There are two receivers, one to either side of the formation, with one on the line of scrimmage and the other a yard back. The advantage to this formation is that the running backs are already in position to get out into the flats easier and serve as a dump-off if the wide receivers are covered. Most of the times, at least one of them will sit back and block any potential blitz. It also leaves a degree of ambiguity as to which back will go out, and whether one or both will stay in to block.

Teams are starting to move away from the West Coast offense because defenses have learned two ways to exploit it. One is that to execute a West Coast offense, you need a quarterback with three important traits: He has to be highly accurate, he has to be a downfield threat (to prevent all the coverage staying short), and he has to be a good decision-maker. There aren't a lot of quarterbacks that count for all three of these things. The second flaw is that your QB will be putting the ball in the air maybe 30-40 times over the course of the game. Any time the ball enters the air that often, it's begging for an interception.

Since in a West Coast, the QB is mostly taking three- or five-step drops, he doesn't have time to make a lot of reads and wait for something to develop. He needs to make his reads quickly and throw to the open receiver. If the quarterback has no long-range ability, it shortens the field for the defense

elsid13
12-06-2008, 10:50 AM
In the past Shanahan has adopted the WCO with his power running game (via ZBS) to form something that designed to be ball control offense that wears out the other teams defense and put together long drives to limit the opponent's offense to get on the field.

This season because of Pats success last season and lack of viable runner Denver gone to more of spread offense, but a still incorporates a lot of drags and slants for the WR (Marshall)

elsid13
12-06-2008, 10:57 AM
For those that want the indepth knowledge of WCO (great site)

http://www.westcoastoffense.com/

elsid13
12-06-2008, 11:05 AM
And finally two great pitches from the authors of running the west coast offense. This walks the beginner all the way through the process. Their site http://www.topgunqbacademy.com/

Slide show of WCO PART I

http://www.slideshare.net/Redout/west-coast-offense-42680


combined the spread and WCO (which what the Pats did and Denver are doing this year)

http://www.topgunqbacademy.com/PDFsVideo/TheMultipleWestCoastSpreadOffense.pdf

haroldthebarrel
12-06-2008, 11:07 AM
In the past Shanahan has adopted the WCO with his power running game (via ZBS) to form something that designed to be ball control offense that wears out the other teams defense and put together long drives to limit the opponent's offense to get on the field.

This season because of Pats success last season and lack of viable runner Denver gone to more of spread offense, but a still incorporates a lot of drags and slants for the WR (Marshall)

In addition to that, Shanahan with Elway was the first to incorporate the Shotgun into the WCO. That has to do with him being a pupil of the spread offense run and shoot when he was a college coach in Florida(or FL st?)Which in addition to as you say his incorporation with the ZBS has really evolved the WCO into a hybrid.
From a pure schematic point it is IMHO very hard to pass up Shanahan as an instant HOFer since he has won SBs and has a great winning percentage.
Remember, Joe Gibbs biggest contribution to the offense was the H-back to counter especially LT.

My point about the importance of the qb and receivers feet is greatly summed up by Steve Young in one of very few great articles by Pasquarelli.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/history.html

"The best way to define the West Coast offense may be to start with what it isn't.

The traditional passing game, which NFL teams ran for years, is based on deep drops, quarterbacks bouncing and waiting for receivers to come open, one-on-one matchups and throwing the ball downfield.

In contrast, the West Coast offense as it originated with Bill Walsh is any play or set of plays that tie the quarterback's feet to the receiver's route so there is a sense of timing.

The offense cannot be taught or run based solely on a playbook. If a coach has no history in the West Coast and wants to teach it based on a playbook, he wouldn't get it. Timing and choreography, not plays, are what make the West Coast offense.

My definition might include a number of teams that aren't generally thought of as West Coast offense teams. In fact, most of the league uses some of the West Coast philosophy and perhaps even the Walsh tree of plays. For the most part, the system and the plays are intersecting, but they don't need to be. The quick slant is considered a staple West Coast play -- dropping three steps, planting and throwing on time and in rhythm with the receiver. But there are tons of ways to design West Coast plays, even if they didn't originate with Walsh.

Two weeks ago I visited the Patriots and met with quarterback Tom Brady. When I asked him about his drops and his reads, he said everything is about finding space, zone routes, man-zone reads, short drops and timing. Brady's footwork tells him when to throw the ball. So, while offensive coordinator Charlie Weis has no West Coast history or ties to Walsh and the 49ers system in his coaching background, the Patriots essentially are running the West Coast offense.

Meanwhile, based on how Kurt Warner and the other Rams quarterbacks throw the ball, Mike Martz does not run a West Coast offense in St. Louis. He uses a more traditional passing game in which the routes are not tied to the quarterback's feet.

Bucs coach Jon Gruden, who worked under Mike Holmgren in Green Bay, will say, "We're not running the West Coast offense. I'm running my offense." Well, that's fine, Jon. And sure, he and other coaches may feel they don't run the West Coast, because they don't run Walsh's plays from 1980.

But I disagree. Although Gruden may run different plays and have different names for certain aspects of his offense, his plays are designed with the quarterback's footwork in mind. And that is the West Coast offense.

-- Steve Young "

elsid13
12-06-2008, 11:10 AM
In addition to that, Shanahan with Elway was the first to incorporate the Shotgun into the WCO. That has to do with him being a pupil of the spread offense run and shoot when he was a college coach in Florida(or FL st?)Which in addition to as you say his incorporation with the ZBS has really evolved the WCO into a hybrid.


It was UF. Socal at the Orangemane is really into this stuff, and found a article about Mike Leach (TT) giving Shanahan credit for giving for the basis of Leach spread offense attack. Evidently Leach attend a session with Shanahan and learn how to incorporate the drags and come backs into the Shotgun.

elsid13
12-29-2008, 09:48 AM
The Secrets of Urban Meyer's Spread Option Offense
by: Terry Jacoby
June 2006
Copyright American Football Monthly
http://www.americanfootballmonthly.com/Subaccess/articles.php?article_id=4701&output=article

The legend lives on: From the flat lands of northern Ohio to the depths of Salt Lake City to the swamps of Florida, Urban Meyer, at the young age of 41, has already earned the moniker of legend. He has been called a football genius, an offensive innovator and is considered the architect behind an offense that even the best minds in college football can’t harness, let alone stop.

His spread option offense helped change the game and in turn brought respectability to Bowling Green, an undefeated season to Utah and renewed success for the Florida Gators. Meyer certainly brought with him plenty of impressive credentials, including a two-time National Coach of the Year. And with the help of Meyer, his Offensive Coordinator Dan Mullen and a few guys paid to try and stop this offense, we will take an inside look at the legend’s offense, how it works and why it works.

Defining Meyer’s spread option
It’s called a few different things, but essentially Urban Meyer’s offense is known in football circles as a spread option. The philosophy is quite simple. Meyer and company spread out the offense and force you to defend from sideline to sideline, using the entire width of the field to their advantage. The more space a defense has to cover, the more room it creates for Florida’s outstanding athletes. Once you’re spread out, they then let you decide what it is you are going to stop, the run or the pass, and they burn you with the other. “All things being equal, anybody can stop the run and anybody can stop the pass,” Meyer said. “But can you stop both?”

Meyer likes his quarterback in the shotgun. In fact, the quarterback in this offense is almost always in the shotgun. Behind him is usually just one running back, sometimes none. The four or five wide receivers are constantly in motion, trying to create confusion for the defense and find that perfect mismatch in talent or opening in the defense that they then can exploit.

“I consider it a split-back veer offense except they are in the shotgun,” said Air Force Academy Defensive Coordinator Richard Bell. “The biggest difference is that most option teams have a tight formation, but the thing that made it difficult was that you never had to defend four wide receivers or a three-by-one set with three receivers to one side. You now had to deal with the width of the receivers and being able to defend the pass as well as the run and that’s what made it very, very difficult.”

By creating space with the spread offense, Meyer is able to open up serious running lanes. And because of the threat of the run, especially the option, the use of misdirection and the often times quick and short pass routes, defenses don’t have time to blitz, let alone adjust. Defenses can’t get overly aggressive or the play could be behind them or going the other way in an instant.

“And everybody, including Urban, is always putting in new things and gotten better and better at running it,” Bell said. “Now they have a trap game off it and a counter game off of it. You have to be sound in every aspect of the running game to be able to stop it.”

Mix in some old-school option football, short, high-percentage passes with the new triple-option and spread it out across the width of the football field with superior athletes and you have the Urban Meyer offense. And if you think trying to define it is difficult, try to stop it.

“It’s an excellent offense, but it still comes down to execution, whether you’re running it or trying to stop it,” said a prominent Defensive Coordinator who did not want to be identified. “One of the things (Steve) Spurrier used to do (at Florida) is that when he split you out, you had to move someone out with him and he felt like he was blocking a guy by spreading him out. To a degree, that’s true. There are some differences between what (Meyer) is doing and what Spurrier was doing, but there also are some similarities as well. The spread offense forces you to make plays in space a little bit more than other offenses.”

Balance
One of the reasons Meyer’s spread offense has been successful is because it helps create space to run the football. Yes, despite what the blogs and message boards and radio talk show hosts say, Urban Meyer’s offense is about running the football. “One of the biggest misconceptions that defensive coordinators have about our offense is that they look at our offense and believe that we want to throw the ball a lot,” Mullen said. “The opposite is true though. We’d rather run than throw.” The statistics back it up.

Last year, Florida ran the football 455 times for 2,167 yards and passed 385 times. The team’s leading rusher was DeShawn Wynn, who led the team with 130 carries. But right behind him was quarterback Chris Leak, who threw 374 times and ran 105 times. “Our optimal run to pass ratio is 50/50 each time we take the field,” Mullen said.

“It’s a very, very strong running offense and when we faced it, (Utah) had some very good running backs and they did a lot of things off of it,” Bell said. “You have to be sound on who is going to take the quarterback and who is going to take the dive and the pitch or they will certainly burn you. It’s a lot more than a passing offense.

“A lot of people think you get in the shotgun to throw because he already has the depth he needs to throw. But you have to honor that dive back and honor that draw and the quarterback’s effectiveness coming off that dive is like coming off a point on any other option, whether it be a wishbone option or the split-back veer. The guy that can accelerate off of that can put a lot of pressure on a defense.”

Gun Zone
One of the more popular alignments in the Meyer offense is the Gators’ gun zone option, a modern day and very effective triple option. Most of the time this look features three or four wide receivers with a running back next to the quarterback and usually their best receiver parked in the slot. The slot receiver goes in motion but ends up most of the time in the backfield as the second RB to the right of the quarterback.

“You have to be prepared to treat the quarterback as one of the components of the offense as far as defending the run as well as the play action stuff,” said the defensive coordinator from a perennial Top 20 program. “What it looks like they’re trying to do to us is trying to create a one back alignment, but by shifting or motion they get back to a way in which they can make it a two-back offense.”

What the gun-zone option tries to accomplish is to see how the backside defensive end and the outside linebacker adjust to the shift. The quarterback will base his decisions on what these two players do. For example, he snaps the ball and prepares to hand it off to the running back with one eye on the defensive end. If the DE chases the running back down the line of scrimmage, the QB keeps the ball and turns his attention to the OLB with the slot receiver now his option. If the LB commits to the QB, he pitches, if not, he keeps it. “You have to be sound against the option and be solid against the dive back and the quarterback and you have to take care of the pitch,” the defensive coordinator said. “What they try to do is read the box and see how many you have to defend the run and what you are going to commit to the passing game. They are trying to locate your defenders and call the play based on your alignment.

“It’s about creating alignments and creating space and trying to take advantage of what the defense is showing.”

Utilizing Your Playmakers
“The greatest strength of the offense is creating mismatches and we rely on our personnel to do that,” Mullen said. “We are trying to get our players in position to make plays based on a one-on-one mismatch in athleticism.” This shows that Florida’s basic philosophy is identify the playmakers and then put them in situations to make plays.

In basketball, you don’t put a quick point guard with great speed and a tremendous cross-over move down on the blocks or pass him the ball in the deep corner. The same goes for a receiver with a great first move and tremendous breakaway speed. You put him in situations where he can best use his skills - in the open field, with room to run and not limited to one side of the field.

On the Defensive
So, how do you stop this thing? Mullen knows what he would try to do if he were on the other sideline – without giving up the store, that is. “I would have the defense keep plays in front of them by dropping eight into coverage,” he said.

Bell is in his 11th year at Air Force and was named the Assistant Coach of the Year in 1998 by the American Football Coaches Association. He has had to try and stop Meyer’s offense twice while the two coached in the Mountain West Conference. Utah defeated Air Force 49-35 in its undefeated season in 2004. Utah won the first triple overtime game in MWC history on Nov. 1, 2003, beating Air Force 45-43. It was a wild finish to a game that Utah led 23-7 through three quarters only to see AFA tie it up at 23 with 3:09 left in regulation. “You have to stop the run first,” Bell said. “When he was at Utah, if you didn’t stop the run first he would run you out of the ballpark. They are reading how many people you have in the box and if you tried to stretch it and just keep five in the box and put six out so that you can cover down on his four wides, that automatically meant that they were going to run the football. You have to try to bait them in the sense that you have to disguise and walk guys up so that you keep six or even seven people in the vicinity that they can come and support on the run as well as defend the pass. Of course, down and distance dictates some of this.”

Bell knows that Meyer can get pretty creative with his offense. Utah won the triple-overtime game over Air Force in 2003 on a two-point conversion pass from tight end Ben Moa to fellow tight end Matt Hansen.

“You can’t just say I am going to play the run with five people and I am going to get six back there to defend the pass because they will eat you alive,” Bell said.

According to one our defensive coordinators, you have to know your assignment and be patient or a misdirection can hurt you. Linebackers and safeties have to know how to play the option, especially against the shovel pass. Alabama did a great job of stopping the Meyer offense, which against the Crimson Tide at least, didn’t look much like the offense that pounded the WAC the previous year. The Gators scored only 16 points against Tennessee in Week 3, but they did win that game so all was forgiven.

elsid13
12-29-2008, 09:48 AM
But they lost the Alabama game. Was the SEC too fast for Meyer’s spread offense? Were the defensive players and coaches too good? Meyer and company didn’t buy any of that, but they did admit there was a problem.

“We have not done a good job of utilizing the 53-yard width of the field,” Meyer said after the loss to Alabama in Week 5. “I think what we’ve kind of done is squeezed it down.”

Said Mullen: “I’ve gotten away from having the patience to let those things work out and let them go. You’re not going to have a great play every single play. You have to have patience to let the offense run.” Mullen did say that the greatest weakness of the Gators’ offense is when their athletes are inferior, therefore “we have a hard time creating the mismatches we are trying to develop.” But stopping this offense requires more than just good athletes. It requires defensive coordinators putting the players in a position to make the plays. And it requires those players then to make the plays. “(The spread) will always involve to some degree a pre-snap alignment,” the defensive coordinator said. “We try and give them a look and do something after the snap or just prior to the snap and try to force the quarterback to make his reads on the run.”

And Mullen and Meyer are always tinkering with the offense. The system they ran for Chris Leak last year was different than the one they ran for Smith in Utah. Former coach Mouse Davis said he was very impressed with how Florida changed up the offense a bit in midseason. “This shows me Urban Meyer and his staff did some coaching,” Davis said.

Nothing stays the same because the defense eventually will catch up with the offense. “All they’ve done is through a period of time developed (the spread offense) and created new plays to take advantage of what your defense is showing,” said the defensive coordinator.

Mullen said they’ve seen quite a few different defenses thrown at them over the years. “Teams develop their defense to try to stop us based on their strengths, which differ from opponent to opponent,” he said. “It’s really not the scheme as much as it is the personnel they have.”

The Quarterback
“The quarterback is the most critical position in this offense,” Mullen said. And the quarterback must be able to run as well as throw the football. And he also must be able to make good decisions quickly. Coach Meyer’s quarterbacks in his four years of coaching have passed for a combined 9,972 yards and rushed for 2,453. In the history of the Division I-A football there has never been a quarterback that has thrown for more then 9,000 yards and rushed for 2,000 in a career. “There is no doubt that Alex Smith was special. (Smith) was made for what they did,” Bell said. “Here’s a kid who was 6-4 and 220 who threw well, but he was a very physical runner and he fooled you with his speed because he was a long strider and you wouldn’t on film think that he was that fast, yet he could accelerate away from you.” And intelligence also is an important ingredient. “The biggest thing about him was that he was a 3.9 student and graduated in three years,” Bell said. “He was very knowledgeable and really studied the game hard and that made him even better. He not only had all the physical talents, but he was a real student of the game as well.”

But Bell admits you don’t need an Alex Smith to run this offense. Even high school teams are running it with great success. “This type of offense is now being used all over college football and even at the high school level,” he said. “I saw a lot of people running this offense this past year that didn’t have an Alex Smith. You can run this offense without a great quarterback like Smith. Your emphasis might go a little bit more run or a little bit more pass depending on the quarterback you do have.”

The QB’s Comfort Zone
Florida opened with four wins in 2005, but then hit a bit of a skid, losing two of three before the Gators’ bye week. Learning a new offense is one thing. Succeeding with a new offense against the tough competition in the SEC is a completely different thing. Quarterback Chris Leak was having a little trouble grasping the new system. And if your quarterback isn’t getting it, then breakdowns are certain to occur.

“Early on, Chris was trying things,” Mullen said. “I think he didn’t like (certain things in the offense) early on because he hadn’t seen it in live game situations over and over. During the bye week, he came in and said, ‘you know what, this is where I’m really comfortable.’”

Meyer’s philosophy is to do what your players do best even if that means getting out of your comfort zone. But the bottom line “is to add things our players are comfortable doing.”

The Gators won four of their last five games, including the bowl game victory over Iowa. Mullen has a bit of advice for coaches who want to change up their offense in the middle of the season. “The key is putting players in a position to succeed,” he said. Leak ran the offense much better in the second half of the season despite not having a great running back behind him. Only time will tell if he can run it as effectively as Alex Smith, who had a great ability to make the right decision at the right time.

Specialties
In 2004, Utah snapped the ball inside its opponent’s 20-yard line 67 times and came away with points 62 times, including 55 touchdowns for an amazing 82.1 success rate. In 2002 at Bowling Green, Meyer’s team scored 52 touchdowns in 63 trips inside the red zone.

Why so much success in the red zone? “We probably call more quarterback runs than most schools and we’ve simply completed a higher percentage of our passes,” Mullen said. The Gators also have had success in the two-minute offense. “The success of the play on first down is the most critical element,” Mullen said. “You have to develop a rhythm. It can’t be stop and go. We try and take what they give and having success on the first-down play creates the rhythm to feed off of.” Same goes for third and long. “Same thing here, we’re going to take what they are giving us,” Mullen said. “We don’t have to throw the ball deep down the field to be successful. We see what they are going to allow and take advantage of it.”

Working Together
Mullen and Meyer worked the sidelines together at Notre Dame in 2000. When Meyer got the Bowling Green job, he brought Mullen with him and the two have been together ever since. “Coach Meyer has given me great opportunities,” said Mullen, who is currently the offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach at Florida. Mullen said everyone works together when it comes to calling the plays.

“I call the plays, but I check with Coach Meyer and each of the position coaches to get their input on what is working and what is not,” he said. “In the end, it is a combination of all of our thoughts.”

Florida comes out of the locker room with a game plan in hand. “Yes, we script our plays,” Mullen said. “We study the tendencies of the defense in order to put the script together.” Then they try and attack a defense’s weakness and create the athletic mismatches they are looking for.

Watching film is a big part of Florida’s preparation. When they are scouting the defense they are “looking at where they are bringing the pressure from,” Mullen said. And when they are self-scouting their own offense, they are looking at “the speed of our players and the speed at which we are executing plays.” But no matter how fancy the offense or how great the skilled players are, it all comes down to execution. “You have to be fundamentally clean,” Mullen said. “And by that I mean you have to work on fundamentals with every player every day. Many schools tend to focus on scheme and put all the emphasis on that rather than fundamentals.”

Part of Meyer’s success comes from his ability to evaluate a player’s skills and using those skills to best help the team win – even if that means moving a player to another position. “(Meyer) has always been the best at relating with the players and he has the ability to get the most out of each of them,” Mullen said.

Broncospsycho77
02-22-2009, 12:15 AM
Bump. Some news about the newest, most ridiculous scheme out there... it's illegal.


All but offense eligible in avant-garde A-11 football formation
Updated 1d 11h ago | Comments 19 | Recommend 1 E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this
By Jeff Zillgitt, USA TODAY
Supporters call the A-11 football offense innovative. Detractors decry the offense, saying it circumvents rules.

For now, the detractors have sacked the A-11. The National Federation of State High School Associations rendered the A-11 an illegal formation.

GALLERY: A-11 plays
DISCUSSION: Join readers in talking about A-11

Hailed by some as the future of prep football, the A-11 uses 11 potentially eligible receivers on every down by lining up a quarterback at least 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage, which meets the definition of a scrimmage-kick formation.

Lining up in that formation allows the offense to put 11 players on the field wearing Nos. 1-49 and 80-99, all receiver-eligible numbers.

The formation can look unusual, too: A center, two tight ends next to center, three wideouts to the right, three to the left and two backs behind the line of scrimmage. The A-11 can't have more than six eligible receivers, but it makes it difficult for the defense to know which players are eligible.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Texas | Massachusetts | West Virginia | Highlanders | Piedmont | National Federation of State High School Associations | California Interscholastic Federation | Marlon Brown | Mike Webb | Football Rules Committee | Kurt Bryan

That's the problem for West Virginia high school supervisor of football officials Mike Webb. "The originators of the offense have taken a rule that was not meant for inclusion on all downs to put their offense in," he says.

The NFL and college football have rules in place to prevent teams from running the A-11.

The approved rules revisions will make it clear which offensive numbers can be on the field on first, second and third downs and make it harder for a team to line up in scrimmage-kick formation if it is not obvious a kick may be attempted.

"The committee felt it needed to be addressed and get back to the purpose of what the rules were meant for," says Bob Colgate, NFHS assistant director and liaison to the Football Rules Committee. "The changes were made to clarify and spell out in more detail the specifics of the rules."

Colgate says the A-11 won't be mentioned by name in the rulebook. But Piedmont (Calif.) head coach Kurt Bryan and offensive coordinator Steve Humphries, considered the founders of the A-11 offense, feel their offense has been targeted. Bryan says they developed the offense to compete against bigger schools and bigger players.

It has resulted in a verbal joust. Webb called the originators of the A-11 unethical. Bryan says Webb "owes every single A-11 player, coach and administration an apology because he has defamed our names."

Before Bryan and Humphries used the A-11 in a game, they went to the NFHS and California Interscholastic Federation to make sure the A-11 was legal. They were told it was, and Piedmont (enrollment nearly 800) ran the A-11 in 2007 and 2008, going 15-7.

"The evolution of the game went a lot faster than they wanted," Humphries says.

Says Bryan: "We're trying to help schools like Piedmont have a slightly better chance of competing. College and pro teams are constantly spreading the field to maximize the number of game breakers they can put on the field. ... People once thought the forward pass was against the spirit of rules."

Bryan says he has noticed fewer injuries and more players have an opportunity to touch the football in the A-11 scheme.

St. Patrick-St. Vincent (Vallejo, Calif.) coach Marlon Blanton is 1-1 against Piedmont since the Highlanders started running the offense. But "we don't have a problem with it," Blanton says. "We've figured out a way to diagnose who's eligible and who's not. Once you do that, it's just football."

The CIF could, like Texas and Massachusetts have done, adopt its own football rulebook and make room for the A-11. But CIF executive director Marie Ishida says that's unlikely. Piedmont won't be able to run the A-11 in 2009.

Bryan is ready to fight for the A-11's existence. Bryan and A-11 supporters are scheduled to launch a petition drive on Feb. 26. "The powers that be are hoping the A-11 goes away," Bryan says. "It's not going to happen. It's here to stay."
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2009-02-19-A11offense_N.htm

horsepig
02-22-2009, 01:17 AM
velly, velly interesting. My favorite is the one where the QB taps the center on the behind and asks for the dirty ball. The QB takes the "dirty or muddy" ball over to the head linesman but, just before he hands him the "dirty" ball he takes off downfield. Totally legal play. If the QB can run its an easy score. He can also throw it because technically the ball has been snapped.

The only foil is if the linesman blows his whistle.

BigAL56
02-22-2009, 04:45 AM
This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

I do have some questions.

1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.

I was a high school defensive back coach for 4 years, so I can give you what I learned (or was frustrated by with opposing offenses)

1. It depends on so many things. But the best way is to get the ball in between the safety and the corner. It's a hard throw, but a great example of this is against the Patriots when Plummer got the ball to Javon Walker and he juked out the safety for that long TD. The big key against a zone defense is to lure defensive players out of position. A skinny post vs. a deep post. Also, players tend to gamble when playing a zone, so you want to bait them. Running one route several times in a row in one formation and then faking that route and going deep. Those are some of the things that killed my defense.

2.What happened in that Super Bowl was Rod normally cut out for a corner route, and the safety had been anticipating that. Shanny saw that and told Rod to step like he was going to the corner and then cut in in for a post. The saftey bit and Rod took it to the house. It works well against the zone if the player is gambeling.

3. Stretch run. It depends on what defense you are in, but it's almost always the backside linebacker and safety. They contain and the inside linebacker fills just underneith. Each player is responsible for a gap, and the outside backer is almost always the contain guy.

4. Highest success rate meaning percentage of completions? I'd say screens? It all depends on how the defense is playing you. Against blitz teams, screens work well.

haroldthebarrel
02-22-2009, 07:04 PM
I was a high school defensive back coach for 4 years, so I can give you what I learned (or was frustrated by with opposing offenses)

1. It depends on so many things. But the best way is to get the ball in between the safety and the corner. It's a hard throw, but a great example of this is against the Patriots when Plummer got the ball to Javon Walker and he juked out the safety for that long TD. The big key against a zone defense is to lure defensive players out of position. A skinny post vs. a deep post. Also, players tend to gamble when playing a zone, so you want to bait them. Running one route several times in a row in one formation and then faking that route and going deep. Those are some of the things that killed my defense.

2.What happened in that Super Bowl was Rod normally cut out for a corner route, and the safety had been anticipating that. Shanny saw that and told Rod to step like he was going to the corner and then cut in in for a post. The saftey bit and Rod took it to the house. It works well against the zone if the player is gambeling.

3. Stretch run. It depends on what defense you are in, but it's almost always the backside linebacker and safety. They contain and the inside linebacker fills just underneith. Each player is responsible for a gap, and the outside backer is almost always the contain guy.

4. Highest success rate meaning percentage of completions? I'd say screens? It all depends on how the defense is playing you. Against blitz teams, screens work well.

thanks for the reply.
as far as question four is concerned. What I meant was thus.
If I run a post, on what schemes would I be most effective.
Say the qb sees something and then changes the route.

I know slants and curls are lethal vs the zones.
What other routes are great vs zones and what other routes take effect of the moving from one persons responsibility to another. I suppose the post and particularly the skinny post is one. What other routes?

Btw, interesting of you mentioning screens. I could never understand with the athletic line of ours as well as good blocking receivers why we never ran more of them. Well, we did this year but those wasnt all that hard to sniff out. And doesnt it seems that the different jobs concerned to screens are much alike stretch plays anyway?

Anyway, that is one thing I like about McDaniels. I always respected how often and how well executed the Pats did the screens.
A third and long was often a screen and executed perfectly they even got some first downs vs zones.

BigAL56
02-22-2009, 09:01 PM
thanks for the reply.
as far as question four is concerned. What I meant was thus.
If I run a post, on what schemes would I be most effective.
Say the qb sees something and then changes the route.

I know slants and curls are lethal vs the zones.
What other routes are great vs zones and what other routes take effect of the moving from one persons responsibility to another. I suppose the post and particularly the skinny post is one. What other routes?

Btw, interesting of you mentioning screens. I could never understand with the athletic line of ours as well as good blocking receivers why we never ran more of them. Well, we did this year but those wasnt all that hard to sniff out. And doesnt it seems that the different jobs concerned to screens are much alike stretch plays anyway?

Anyway, that is one thing I like about McDaniels. I always respected how often and how well executed the Pats did the screens.
A third and long was often a screen and executed perfectly they even got some first downs vs zones.

A lot of it depends on just what you see from the defense. It's hard to explain, but I can give a tangible example.

I'm a quarterback. I see the safety sneaking up to the box. I think he's blitzing. So I motion my slot wideout to see if his man follow him. The man does follow him. I know now that they are in man coverage with no safety help. A post route is probably going to be successful in that situation b/c there is no help in the deep middle.

There is no quick answer to that question, it's all situational and there are too many situations to list.

haroldthebarrel
02-22-2009, 09:05 PM
A lot of it depends on just what you see from the defense. It's hard to explain, but I can give a tangible example.

I'm a quarterback. I see the safety sneaking up to the box. I think he's blitzing. So I motion my slot wideout to see if his man follow him. The man does follow him. I know now that they are in man coverage with no safety help. A post route is probably going to be successful in that situation b/c there is no help in the deep middle.

There is no quick answer to that question, it's all situational and there are too many situations to list.

That was what I suspected. A lot of variables that is.
Still, to me it is a very interesting discussion.

You say you were a db coach. Taking out the supreme talent, what routes were generally the hardest to defend?

Do they even play much zone in HS football at all?

BigAL56
02-22-2009, 09:34 PM
That was what I suspected. A lot of variables that is.
Still, to me it is a very interesting discussion.

You say you were a db coach. Taking out the supreme talent, what routes were generally the hardest to defend?

Do they even play much zone in HS football at all?

Yea, we played almost all zone. Usually a cover 4 though. Our safety's couldn't cover half the field if their life depended on it.

Two routes come into mind that just frustrated the heck out of me.

1. The fifteen yard hitch. What happens is it's deep enough where our corner has to turn his hips to bail deep and soon as his hips turn, the receiver stops and gets the ball. You need to O-line protetion and a QB that can throw hard, but that killed us.

2. I don't have a name for it, but we called it the "phippsy route" b/c our slot guy was named "Phipps." And we ran this all the time. Starts out as a direct slant out and after four yards, just cuts in. Works every time against a man defense and a lot of times against a zone. The only time it didn't work is if the defense knew what was being run

frenchfan
02-23-2009, 04:19 AM
I just wanted to thank you all for this great thread...

Damned, it's amazing what I've learned in 4 pages.
Though I have a huge sport background, my football technical background is weak (not played too much here)... So it's great to read this kind of threads..

Again, thanks !

:beer:

Lonestar
02-23-2009, 01:45 PM
there is a town hall discussion about this type of thread going on please add to it..

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33611

West
02-25-2009, 01:22 PM
This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

I do have some questions.

1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
(like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.


Little late to the thread but i'll help out..



1. Well that is correct. In cover 3, the most popular pattern is the "Cadillac". Which is where the 2 main receivers run a post and a square in, respectfully. The tight end and backs can do a variety of things in the flats.

In third and long, it really depends on the coach. An aggressive coach will try and pick it up but a conservative coach will 'dink and donk' for a few yards or run a simple draw play to the tailback.

Cover two.. You really wanna isolate the safeties. Seams are killer for this type of defense or maybe even a back out of the backfield. A 'seam, corner' would tear apart this defense as the safety has to choose who to pick or the other safety has to help out leaving his side of the field vulnerable.

2. Man coverage and cover 3. In man, it is extremely hard for a corner to run with a receiver that long. And in cover 3, it is hard for a safety to pick up the post if he sees a pattern that is crossing across the field in front of him (see 1). It is EXTREMELY effective in PA with a run oriented offense. A cheating up safety will see run first and will hesitate to check and make sure the back doesn't have the ball. This leaves the middle of the field vulnerable as the safety (probably) won't get back in time to help the corner.

3. End. Ends are suppose to "squeeze" down the line when flow is away from them. This means that the end goes with the tightend/tackle who is trying to 'scoop/zone' block the DT or ILB. If done properly, it eliminates the back side hole that is commonly used in a stretch play.

4. Slant- it is generally used in man coverage or when a corner is playing off.

Fly- used in man or cover 2 to get a one on one match up with (generally) your top deep threat.

Curl- used when the corner is playing off or when you have consistently gone deep. The corner expects it to be a deep route but the receiver breaks it off into a curl.

Flat pattern- used to isolate a back or tightend against a linebacker or when the receiver on that side clears out that side of the field for a route where he initially left. Used anytime except in cover 2 as the corner is playing the flats.

Wheel route- generally used when a receiver to one side clears out (which means that he runs a route away from where he just was) and a streaking back/receiver/tightend can take advantage of that and try and make a big play. You can use this route anytime.

Bubble- used when a corner is playing off or when the offense wants to get the ball in the playmaker's hands and see if he can make something happen.

Screen- used when the offense feels that they can counter the defenses blitz with a screen.


JMO.

West
02-26-2009, 09:45 PM
This is why the PA worked so well in that situation. Robinson was cheating up to stop the run (TD Baby!), and got caught. He had the deep zone responsibility there, and let Smith get behind him.

A post can also work well in zones if the QB can time the throw to the receiver when he is "between zones" or between defenders so to speak.

However, if a defender plays a man, bump and run technique, and stays inside of the receiver, then it a post probably isn't going to work so well.

Beating zones with a post has a lot more to do with confusing the DBs in the zone with routes that counter the post.


Yes and in a perfect world we get good pressure on the QB throughout the game. It doesn't happen much.

West
02-26-2009, 09:47 PM
Also if you ever wondered how the zone blocking running is done, Brian Billick at nfl.com videos has some really nice explanations. Clinton Portis as well explains in a video the lethality of it, when to cut back, the reason for cut-blocking the back side and more.

The zone blocking scheme feeds off the defenses inability to play assignment football and the inability to stay on the upfield shoulder of the OLmen and having an arm free.

West
02-26-2009, 09:53 PM
The best way to attack zone coverage is to recognize it at the LOS before the ball is snapped.True but its also even more effective when you pick up on the defenses tendencies while watching film. IMO the ability to watch film is HUGE Your best bet is to not have a specific route, but rather a route with a read.Yes. Your WR and QB should be able to both read defensive zones and the WR should be able to find an open spot in the zone and the QB should be able to find the WR. A QB should be able to look at a zone defense and know where their WR is going to sit down. This is why it is critical for defenses to show different looks even if it is running the same coverage. This is a big reason why our defense fails IMO because we are not good at disguising our plays or showing different looks.More about pass rush and a difference maker at the safety spot

It is difficult on 3rd and long, obviously because not only do you have to find a soft spot in the zone, but you have to be aware of the first down marker. That is why Cover 2/3 is a popular call on 3rd down.Cover 2 is not a popular call on 3rd and long. It is more effective on 3rd and short. Cover 2 takes away the flat routes. That's what that defense does best. Unless you have a QB who can fit the ball into tight spaces or a WR who can break tackles, it is difficult to convert a 3rd and long unless a defender makes a mistake.

You will often times see teams take the underneath to a RB because your RB is almost always open out of the backfield with a Cover 2/3Not necessarily. and your RB has the best chance of breaking a couple tackles to get to the 1st down marker. You will often see a RB sit in the middle of the field on 3rd and lets say 13.A receiver always does that. Its called a check down. It is pretty common to see the RB pickup 9-12 yards and leave the offense with a 4th and 1 or 2.

If it is late in a game where you know the offense is in a 4-down situation, you may see less Cover 2/3 because you dont want to leave them with an easy 4th down conversion.No. Its easier to get beat in man than it is in zone. OTOH, you may see a defense not even consider the first down marker if a TD is needed to win and there is very little time on the clock in which case you will see a very deep prevent defense.

Overall.. Nice post.