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Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 02:22 PM
So, who would you say are our 5 best defensive players from 1-5 (one being the best)?

DenBronx
09-04-2011, 02:26 PM
DOOM
Champ
V.Miller
Warren (if wasnt hurt)
DJ


Rahim Moore is making his case though.

Northman
09-04-2011, 02:27 PM
Champ Bailey
Brian Dawkins
Elvis Dumervil
Von Miller
Rahim Moore

gregbroncs
09-04-2011, 02:28 PM
Champ
Miller
Doom
Dawkins
Bunkley

DenBronx
09-04-2011, 02:28 PM
Champ Bailey
Brian Dawkins
Elvis Dumervil
Von Miller
Rahim Moore

Based off of last years performance I dont think Dawkins is one of our top 5.

If he plays like the Dawk of pre 2010 then yeah.

Tned
09-04-2011, 02:28 PM
So, who would you say are our 5 best defensive players from 1-5 (one being the best)?

DJ
Champ
Doom
Miller (based on preseason and speculation)
??? Maybe Marcus Thomas, maybe Ayers, it's pretty weak after the top four.

ogplife
09-04-2011, 02:30 PM
Champ
Doom
Goodman
Warren
DJ

Miller could be three by the end of the year. Need to see production when it counts first.

DenBronx
09-04-2011, 02:30 PM
Champ
Miller
Doom
Dawkins
Bunkley

Bunkley has looked great so far. I hope he plays that physical in regular season games. He's very very strong and can bullrush people. Seems like a good fit for our 4-3 hybrid.

Northman
09-04-2011, 02:30 PM
Based off of last years performance I dont think Dawkins is one of our top 5.

If he plays like the Dawk of pre 2010 then yeah.


The whole defense was bad. It wasnt all his fault bro. Im also not counting his injuries either. Going off strictly who is the best talented player on defense is what the thread was about. Brian is up there in pure talent but like all great players needs help around him to truly be successful.

Davii
09-04-2011, 02:31 PM
I think just about everyone will have the same 5, just order would be different. Personally, I would say:

Champ
Dumervil
Dawkins
Von
DJ

That last spot is interchangeable and I'm quite certain Rahim will break into that list soon

HORSEPOWER 56
09-04-2011, 02:32 PM
Champ
Doom
Miller
Bunkley
Warren (when healthy)

MileHighCrew
09-04-2011, 02:35 PM
Champ
Doom
Von
Ayers (i hope by seasons end)
And dj

gregbroncs
09-04-2011, 02:36 PM
I think just about everyone will have the same 5, just order would be different. Personally, I would say:

Champ
Dumervil
Dawkins
Von
DJ

That last spot is interchangeable and I'm quite certain Rahim will break into that list soon

I think their is about 8 players that can arguably make this list.

Champ
Doom
Miller
Moore
DJ
Dawkins
Bunkley
Warren (been mentioned I know very little about him)

Tned
09-04-2011, 02:37 PM
The whole defense was bad. It wasnt all his fault bro. Im also not counting his injuries either. Going off strictly who is the best talented player on defense is what the thread was about. Brian is up there in pure talent but like all great players needs help around him to truly be successful.

The biggest unkonwn with Dawkins is how much he has left. Does he have a few years left, or has he lost too much speed. I hope you're right. If he's back to like he played in '09, he'll be a big part of the defense.

DenBronx
09-04-2011, 02:38 PM
The whole defense was bad. It wasnt all his fault bro. Im also not counting his injuries either. Going off strictly who is the best talented player on defense is what the thread was about. Brian is up there in pure talent but like all great players needs help around him to truly be successful.

Yeah I agree on the whole D being bad. Dawkins does look like he's a spring back in his step this year.


The sad thing is, we could have afforded Mebane, C.Jenkins or Nnamdi.

29 mill under the cap. :tsk:


And with the loss of Syd and Cox we could have really used Nnamdi. Our D would have been sick.

Northman
09-04-2011, 02:39 PM
The biggest unkonwn with Dawkins is how much he has left. Does he have a few years left, or has he lost too much speed. I hope you're right. If he's back to like he played in '09, he'll be a big part of the defense.

If Dawk played on the Ravens defense would it still be a question? I just dont think you can make a fair assesement of a player when he plays on the worst defense in the NFL.

Tned
09-04-2011, 02:41 PM
If Dawk played on the Ravens defense would it still be a question? I just dont think you can make a fair assesement of a player when he plays on the worst defense in the NFL.

I'm not sure, to be honets. But, I hope you're right.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-04-2011, 02:46 PM
If Dawk played on the Ravens defense would it still be a question? I just dont think you can make a fair assesement of a player when he plays on the worst defense in the NFL.

Honestly, I think Dawkins would've been cut from that team a couple years ago. He's a great leader, but the Ravens already have that in spades. The Ravens want players, not cheerleaders.

We need Dawkins' presence because nobody else on the team that should provide leadership (starting QB, LBs, other "captains") really provide it, but I don't think Dawkins is in the top 20 or so starting Safeties in the league anymore.

Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 02:47 PM
I don't see how someone can put Champ over Doom. The impact of Doom is too significant because he's a front 7 player.

Lancane
09-04-2011, 02:48 PM
1. Elvis Dumervil
2. Von Miller
3. Champ Bailey
4. Rahim Moore
5. Brodrick Bunkley

The loss of anyone of the above five could seriously hurt the defense compared to most others on the defense. D.J. Williams, Brian Dawkins, Andre Goodman and Joe Mays are solid cast characters, they solidify the defense but their presence is not dominate like the above five - but the loss of anyone of them could still hurt the defensive production. Ayers and Vickerson, even Thomas are passable talent, capable but not necessarily disabling should they go down give that we lack depth.

Northman
09-04-2011, 02:49 PM
Honestly, I think Dawkins would've been cut from that team a couple years ago. He's a great leader, but the Ravens already have that in spades. The Ravens want players, not cheerleaders.

We need Dawkins' presence because nobody else on the team that should provide leadership (starting QB, LBs, other "captains") really provide it, but I don't think Dawkins is in the top 20 or so starting Safeties in the league anymore.


I cant say if he is or isnt. But what i can say is Ed Reed or Troy didnt have the guys in front of him they wouldnt be either. Surrounding talent goes a long way. While BDawk may be getting old and losing a step or two he is still more talented than a LOT of guys we have on defense. I see people putting Ayers in their list and i just have to laugh.

gregbroncs
09-04-2011, 02:54 PM
I don't see how someone can put Champ over Doom. The impact of Doom is too significant because he's a front 7 player.

I see Doom as a great pass rushing talent who struggles against the run.

Champ is a complete player at his position and even at his age one of the best in the league.

Therefore to me champ is the superior player.

Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 02:59 PM
I see Doom as a great pass rushing talent who struggles against the run.

Champ is a complete player at his position and even at his age one of the best in the league.

Therefore to me champ is the superior player.

I realize that but by virtue of being an elite pass rusher, Doom has the greater impact.

gregbroncs
09-04-2011, 03:09 PM
I realize that but by virtue of being an elite pass rusher, Doom has the greater impact.

Not if the other team rarely has to pass due to our inability to stop the run.

Champ takes recievers out of the equation, and is very good at run support from his postion. Doom plays a spot that has him involved in more plays. That does not mean he is the superior player. At least IMO.

I believe by the end of this season Miller may be at the top of most of these lists with Doom 2nd. But in a 4-3 scheme I still view Doom as a bit of an unknown. He had 1 great season as a LB in a 3-4. Let's see if he can also help stop the run now he's back on the D-line.

Northman
09-04-2011, 03:10 PM
Yea, from what i was gathering from the thread starter was who was the best player overall, not the most impactful although that arguement can be made for Champ as well. But, if your looking at the complete player than Champ is by far the best compared to Doom and i love Doom.

Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 03:25 PM
Not if the other team rarely has to pass due to our inability to stop the run.

Champ takes recievers out of the equation, and is very good at run support from his postion. Doom plays a spot that has him involved in more plays. That does not mean he is the superior player. At least IMO.

I believe by the end of this season Miller may be at the top of most of these lists with Doom 2nd. But in a 4-3 scheme I still view Doom as a bit of an unknown. He had 1 great season as a LB in a 3-4. Let's see if he can also help stop the run now he's back on the D-line.

When we started 6-0 a couple of years ago, Doom had something like 10 sacks in the first 6 games. How many INTs did Champ have? Last year, we didnt have Doom and we finished last in sacks and only won 4 games.

Sorry but Doom's production translates more to wins than does a DB however good.

Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 03:27 PM
Yea, from what i was gathering from the thread starter was who was the best player overall, not the most impactful although that arguement can be made for Champ as well. But, if your looking at the complete player than Champ is by far the best compared to Doom and i love Doom.

I leave it up to you do decide what "best" is. But to me, impact has to be included.

gregbroncs
09-04-2011, 03:36 PM
When we started 6-0 a couple of years ago, Doom had something like 10 sacks in the first 6 games. How many INTs did Champ have? Last year, we didnt have Doom and we finished last in sacks and only won 4 games.

Sorry but Doom's production translates more to wins than does a DB however good.

What happened at the end of that year? Teams ran all over us and we lost, a lot. Can't look at 6 games and give Doom credit then not look at his lack of production the last half of the season and his weakness seriously hurting the team.

Champ did not have a lot of INT's because QB's did not throw at him. He was taking away half of the field and watching the other CB's get challenged.

Doom's production is valuable but his lack of run support was a major problem to end that year.

You say his contribution is more valueable but don't mention that his weakness was far more detrimental than Champ's that particular year. Champ continued to do his thing that entire season while Doom was marginalized by his own lack of run defense.

Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 03:47 PM
What happened at the end of that year? Teams ran all over us and we lost, a lot. Can't look at 6 games and give Doom credit then not look at his lack of production the last half of the season and his weakness seriously hurting the team.

We had Champ at that time. What did he do to stop the run?


Champ did not have a lot of INT's because QB's did not throw at him. He was taking away half of the field and watching the other CB's get challenged.

People need to get off of that. Its not 2006.


Doom's production is valuable but his lack of run support was a major problem to end that year.

His production translates to wins. His production translates to the production of others more than any other player on the defense...at least in recent past.


You say his contribution is more valueable but don't mention that his weakness was far more detrimental than Champ's that particular year. Champ continued to do his thing that entire season while Doom was marginalized by his own lack of run defense.

I dont think we lost those games because of Doom. I think it has something to do with a falling out between McDaniels and Nolan. I think Nolan was better at using Doom.

I think the fact that when Doom plays well, it means a lot more than when Champ plays well should make this obvious.

Slick
09-04-2011, 03:49 PM
DJ first tned? He's just always been so average .

Champ
Dumervil
CLady
I guess Miller


pretty thin after that....maybe Kuper

Agent of Orange
09-04-2011, 03:50 PM
DJ first tned? He's just always been so average .

Champ
Dumervil
CLadyI guess Miller


pretty thin after that....maybe Kuper

Defensive players only.

Nomad
09-04-2011, 03:57 PM
Need to see production when it counts first.

This is the way I see it especially against the run! Hopefully the defense isn't one dimensional.......can stop the passing game but sucks versus the run.

Magnificent Seven
09-04-2011, 04:02 PM
Champ Bailey

Von Miller

Elvis Dumervil

Brodrick Bunkley

Joe Mays (He might surprise us)

Tned
09-04-2011, 04:05 PM
DJ first tned? He's just always been so average .

Champ
Dumervil
CLady
I guess Miller


pretty thin after that....maybe Kuper

It was a sarcastic ranking, stemming from the conversation that drove this thread to be started.

I would actually put DJ 4th, in reality, moving the other players on my list up.

gregbroncs
09-04-2011, 04:09 PM
We had Champ at that time. What did he do to stop the run?
So you are now arguing that a CB should stop the run instead of the LB the teams are running right at?



People need to get off of that. Its not 2006. No we are talking about 2009 and that was still the case that year.




His production translates to wins. His production translates to the production of others more than any other player on the defense...at least in recent past.
So Doom gets all the credit but none of the blame. If champ is not forcing QB's to look elsewhere does Doom get all of those sacks? They both played so how does Doom's production produce wins and Champ's does not? And does this also not prove that Doom's lack of production cost us more during the last half of that year?



I dont think we lost those games because of Doom. I think it has something to do with a falling out between McDaniels and Nolan. I think Nolan was better at using Doom.

I think the fact that when Doom plays well, it means a lot more than when Champ plays well should make this obvious.When Doom plays well it is obvious because he is involved in the play directly. When Champ plays well it is not obvious because it means he has nothing to do with the play because the QB does not throw it at him. You are being far too simplistic here. You see Doom make plays in winning games so his "impact" must lead to those wins. Unfortunately when we started losing you did not see his impact because he was not in position to stop those running plays coming right at him.

As a CB Champ does his job far better than most in the league.

As a DE Doom does half of his job better than most in the league the problem lies in that he is way below average at the other half of his job. I saw improvement in this preseason. Lets hope that continues when the games count.

So if you talk best player on our defense I'll take the complete player. By your definition every DL and linebacker is more valueable than every CB just because they are involved in far more plays. Therefore they have far more opportunities to make an impact. And the best CB's just are not given the opportunities because QB don't throw at them.

I am not a Doom hater. He was 2nd on my list.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-04-2011, 04:14 PM
It was a sarcastic ranking, stemming from the conversation that drove this thread to be started.

I would actually put DJ 4th, in reality, moving the other players on my list up.

Yeah, I saw what you did and immediately knew why. ;)

Slick
09-04-2011, 04:17 PM
sorry agent.

I don't have 5 then.

champ

doom

miller

Slick
09-04-2011, 04:18 PM
Bailey still takes his man away every sunday. he is still a stud and our best player, period, in my most humblest of opinions.

I Eat Staples
09-04-2011, 04:47 PM
Champ Bailey
Elvis Dumervil
Von Miller
DJ Williams
Brian Dawkins

I think Dawkins is well below average at this stage of his career but I honestly can't think of anyone else who could go there. Maybe Bunkley or Moore.

TaylorK47
09-04-2011, 08:11 PM
:defense:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Elvis Dumervil
2. Champ Baliey
3. Brian Dawkins
4. Von Miller
5. Rahim Moore
:beer:

Az Snake
09-04-2011, 11:32 PM
The biggest unkonwn with Dawkins is how much he has left. Does he have a few years left, or has he lost too much speed. I hope you're right. If he's back to like he played in '09, he'll be a big part of the defense.

From the little I saw in the pre-season,
Dawkins seems to still have most of his motor.

Dawkins is a rare breed.
A Ronny Lott mentality.
Dawkins would probably chop off his finger
and go back in the game too.

The Broncos need guys like Champ and Dawkins
on the field to help school the younger DBs.

Hope that they stay healthy this season.

~~~

Champ
Dumervil
Dawkins
Von
DJ


I like Joe Mays' moxie a lot too.

.

NorCalBronco7
09-05-2011, 01:44 AM
Champ
Doom
DJ
Goodman
Dawkins/ Ty Warren


Miller is probably up there, but I cant rank him at all when he hasnt even played 1 meaningful down.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 09:00 AM
So you are now arguing that a CB should stop the run instead of the LB the teams are running right at?

No we are talking about 2009 and that was still the case that year.


So Doom gets all the credit but none of the blame. If champ is not forcing QB's to look elsewhere does Doom get all of those sacks? They both played so how does Doom's production produce wins and Champ's does not? And does this also not prove that Doom's lack of production cost us more during the last half of that year?

When Doom plays well it is obvious because he is involved in the play directly. When Champ plays well it is not obvious because it means he has nothing to do with the play because the QB does not throw it at him. You are being far too simplistic here. You see Doom make plays in winning games so his "impact" must lead to those wins. Unfortunately when we started losing you did not see his impact because he was not in position to stop those running plays coming right at him.

As a CB Champ does his job far better than most in the league.

As a DE Doom does half of his job better than most in the league the problem lies in that he is way below average at the other half of his job. I saw improvement in this preseason. Lets hope that continues when the games count.

So if you talk best player on our defense I'll take the complete player. By your definition every DL and linebacker is more valueable than every CB just because they are involved in far more plays. Therefore they have far more opportunities to make an impact. And the best CB's just are not given the opportunities because QB don't throw at them.

I am not a Doom hater. He was 2nd on my list.

Sorry, an elite pass rusher > a good CB.

gregbroncs
09-05-2011, 09:08 AM
Sorry, an elite pass rusher > a good CB.

Champ is not a "good" CB. He is an elite CB.

However it is obvious we just need to agree to disagree.

Looking through the posts it seems it's split close to 50/50 on here as to who people think is better. With Doom or Champ being #1 on just about every post.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 09:23 AM
Champ is not a "good" CB. He is an elite CB.
However it is obvious we just need to agree to disagree.

Looking through the posts it seems it's split close to 50/50 on here as to who people think is better. With Doom or Champ being #1 on just about every post.

OK, an elite pass rusher > an elite CB.

BTW, if this topic isn't restricted to defense and Matt Prater was better at being a kicker than Champ is at being a CB, would you admit that Prater is the better player based on your reasoning above?

gregbroncs
09-05-2011, 09:58 AM
OK, an elite pass rusher > an elite CB.

BTW, if this topic isn't restricted to defense and Matt Prater was better at being a kicker than Champ is at being a CB, would you admit that Prater is the better player based on your reasoning above?

No because Champ is also one of the best FB players on our team. And Prater no matter how good at kicking is not.

CB has as much impact as a DE. His impact is just not seen by people who only watch the ball. A CB's impact is what gets those D-linemen their sacks.

Dumervil had 17 sacks and 50+ missed plays on running downs. Which had more impact on the outcome of that season? An elite pass rusher is only greater than an elite CB if he is also an elite DE. Which Doom has yet to prove he is. Even an elite Pass rusher has difficulty getting to the QB if his DB's can't stop the WR's.

And as far as the game goes a Great kicker has more impact on the outcome of a game than a DE. After all when was the last time a DE led the league in scoring. So by your definition all kickers should be ranked above all defensive players because they have more impact on the game.

Do you really want to keep this circle logic up? Or can you let it go now? It's an opinion and the people on this board seem to think they are about even.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 10:03 AM
CB has as much impact as a DE. His impact is just not seen by people who only watch the ball. A CB's impact is what gets those D-linemen their sacks.

Dumervil had 17 sacks and 50+ missed plays on running downs. Which had more impact on the outcome of that season? An elite pass rusher is only greater than an elite CB if he is also an elite DE. Which Doom has yet to prove he is. Even an elite Pass rusher has difficulty getting to the QB if his DB's can't stop the WR's.

And as far as the game goes a Great kicker has more impact on the outcome of a game than a DE. After all when was the last time a DE led the league in scoring. So by your definition all kickers should be ranked above all defensive players because they have more impact on the game.

Do you really want to keep this circle logic up? Or can you let it go now? It's an opinion and the people on this board seem to think they are about even.

No it doesnt. So, you would be willing to rank a kicker as a better player than regular position players. Good to know.

gregbroncs
09-05-2011, 10:14 AM
No it doesnt. So, you would be willing to rank a kicker as a better player than regular position players. Good to know.

Lost your argument so had to change the parameter's?

IT'S AN OPINION.
There is not a right or wrong answer.

My opinion is Champ is the best Football player on our defense regardless of YOUR percieved impact.

You asked how anybody could rank Champ over Doom and I explained it to you.

BTW you still have not even given your own ranking. Is it Doom, Bunkley, Ayers, Vickerson and Miller? That's my guess based on your argument here.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 10:28 AM
Lost your argument so had to change the parameter's?

IT'S AN OPINION.
There is not a right or wrong answer.

My opinion is Champ is the best Football player on our defense regardless of YOUR percieved impact.

You asked how anybody could rank Champ over Doom and I explained it to you.

BTW you still have not even given your own ranking. Is it Doom, Bunkley, Ayers, Vickerson and Miller? That's my guess based on your argument here.

It's interesting that after claiming you've "won" the argument, you say "There is not a right or wrong answer". OK.

I think most would agree that it's better to have elite pass rushers and OK corners than it is to have elite corners and OK pass rushers.

Lancane
09-05-2011, 10:48 AM
No because Champ is also one of the best FB players on our team. And Prater no matter how good at kicking is not.

CB has as much impact as a DE. His impact is just not seen by people who only watch the ball. A CB's impact is what gets those D-linemen their sacks.

Dumervil had 17 sacks and 50+ missed plays on running downs. Which had more impact on the outcome of that season? An elite pass rusher is only greater than an elite CB if he is also an elite DE. Which Doom has yet to prove he is. Even an elite Pass rusher has difficulty getting to the QB if his DB's can't stop the WR's.

And as far as the game goes a Great kicker has more impact on the outcome of a game than a DE. After all when was the last time a DE led the league in scoring. So by your definition all kickers should be ranked above all defensive players because they have more impact on the game.

Do you really want to keep this circle logic up? Or can you let it go now? It's an opinion and the people on this board seem to think they are about even.

Actually Greg, I would say that it also depends on the base scheme for which the defense will or does utilize. Fox's defense is a Tampa-2 which as we know is a 4-3 variant, but what it doesn't tell us and his history does, is that he runs a pass rush heavy 'Bend Don't Break' defense. Most of his defenses have been middle of the road to mediocre against the run, but always in the upper echelon in pass defense, which tells us that he utilizes pass rushers more then he does any other position, defensive ends and linebackers that can blitz and blitz often. It will probably help Champ because it means more turnovers...or usually does. I'm not taking away from Champ as a player, but in the specific system that Fox utilizes I would say that he is less important then the pass rushers of which we only have two in Dumervil and Miller, I have Champ right up there followed by Moore so they are still of base importance. But if Champ was injured would it hurt our defense more or less compared to Miller or Dumvervil? Especially being that Fox's defense is pass rush based?

Tned
09-05-2011, 11:01 AM
Champ
Doom
DJ
Goodman
Dawkins/ Ty Warren


Miller is probably up there, but I cant rank him at all when he hasnt even played 1 meaningful down.

Yea, I put Miller up there, but it was hard, for that reason. While he looks like the real deal, we have all watched guys look great in TC and preseason, but never really pan out.

Even more than Miller, I could not bring myself to put Moore in the top five, because he has shown even less and his expectations are even lower. Granted, he is considered an outside DROY candidate by some (5th highest odds on Bodog or whatever that gambling site is), but that's a real stretch to put him in the top 5 at this point.

BroncoWave
09-05-2011, 11:15 AM
Champ
Miller
Doom
Dawkins
DJ

gregbroncs
09-05-2011, 11:18 AM
It's interesting that after claiming you've "won" the argument, you say "There is not a right or wrong answer". OK.

I think most would agree that it's better to have elite pass rushers and OK corners than it is to have elite corners and OK pass rushers.

I claimed you lost not that I won. You attempted to prove that saying Champ is better than Doom is wrong. When I had a counter for every argument you made you attempted to change the argument. Therefore you lost your original argument.

Despite your last statement as many are ranking Champ over Doom as the other way around. So this statement either appears to be false or people value a complete player as much as a 1 dimensional one.

gregbroncs
09-05-2011, 11:26 AM
Actually Greg, I would say that it also depends on the base scheme for which the defense will or does utilize. Fox's defense is a Tampa-2 which as we know is a 4-3 variant, but what it doesn't tell us and his history does, is that he runs a pass rush heavy 'Bend Don't Break' defense. Most of his defenses have been middle of the road to mediocre against the run, but always in the upper echelon in pass defense, which tells us that he utilizes pass rushers more then he does any other position, defensive ends and linebackers that can blitz and blitz often. It will probably help Champ because it means more turnovers...or usually does. I'm not taking away from Champ as a player, but in the specific system that Fox utilizes I would say that he is less important then the pass rushers of which we only have two in Dumervil and Miller, I have Champ right up there followed by Moore so they are still of base importance. But if Champ was injured would it hurt our defense more or less compared to Miller or Dumvervil? Especially being that Fox's defense is pass rush based?

This is a good post.

I do believe that by the end of the year Miller not Doom or Champ will be our best defender. But putting him 1st is a stretch right now. I believe this due to his ability to get to the passer and chase down plays with his speed. I am concerned that he will struggle in pass coverage but hope he is okay there.

I also believe if Doom can show to be even respectable against the run (He seemed to be in the preseason) I will put him ahead of champ.

If Champ is injured it will hurt every bit as much as if we lose Doom. Right now we have no depth at CB. And no depth at DE. The loss of either of these player is going to hurt. A lot.

I put Champ ahead of Doom mostly because Doom is unproven as a DE. He had his only real success as a pass rushing OLB in a 3-4. And our run defense has stunk since he got here and while not all his fault he is a key part of those troubles.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 12:10 PM
I claimed you lost not that I won. You attempted to prove that saying Champ is better than Doom is wrong. When I had a counter for every argument you made you attempted to change the argument. Therefore you lost your original argument.

Despite your last statement as many are ranking Champ over Doom as the other way around. So this statement either appears to be false or people value a complete player as much as a 1 dimensional one.

No, I said that it is wrong. And it is.

There were a lot of flaws in your explanations that I didn't bother going into.

One was how you weight defending the run. It's nice that Champ is good against the run, but the CBs primary job is to defend the pass. The fact that Champ is one of the best tacklers in the NFL is a nice bonus but not as integral for a CB. Likewise, a LDE, is typically a teams best pass rusher...just like a LT is typically a teams best pass blocker. You're not really weighting things in a way that makes sense or is appropriate.

But, the fact that you've ignored the correlation between Dooms performence and wins doesn't give you a legitimate reason to claim a victory. In 2009, Doom had around 10 sacks in the first 6 games. The team was 6-0. Last year, we didn't have Doom all year but we had Champ all year and we were 4-12 while finishing last in sacks.

Also, its not 2006 anymore. Champ gets targeted sometimes and he gets beat sometimes.

Champ's been a great player but he's not the player he was in 2006. He is also playing a position that has less impact than an elite pass rusher.

MOtorboat
09-05-2011, 12:17 PM
Ranked as best player:
Bailey
Dumervil
D.J. Williams
Miller
Dawkins

Ranked as importance to the defense:
Dumervil
Miller
Bailey
Bunkley
D.J. Williams

Ravage!!!
09-05-2011, 12:21 PM
Doom is not worth 4 wins on his own.

gregbroncs
09-05-2011, 01:10 PM
No, I said that it is wrong. And it is.

There were a lot of flaws in your explanations that I didn't bother going into.

One was how you weight defending the run. It's nice that Champ is good against the run, but the CBs primary job is to defend the pass. The fact that Champ is one of the best tacklers in the NFL is a nice bonus but not as integral for a CB. Likewise, a LDE, is typically a teams best pass rusher...just like a LT is typically a teams best pass blocker. You're not really weighting things in a way that makes sense or is appropriate.

But, the fact that you've ignored the correlation between Dooms performence and wins doesn't give you a legitimate reason to claim a ivictory. In 2009, Doom had around 10 sacks in the first 6 games. The team was 6-0. Last year, we didn't have Doom all year but we had Champ all year and we were 4-12 while finishing last in sacks.

Also, its not 2006 anymore. Champ gets targeted sometimes and he gets beat sometimes.

Champ's been a great player but he's not the player he was in 2006. He is also playing a position that has less impact than an elite pass rusher.

Whatever dude. Your entire argument is that Doom makes plays when we win so he's better. You ignored that to end that 6-0 season Doom was still playing and getting ran all over and they lost 8 of 10. If he's more important to the success then he is more responsible for that failure as well. Especially since it was our run defense that failed us and not our DB's.

Your original question is who is our 5 best defensive players. To me that is Champ #1. He's our only elite player on defense at any position. That includes Doom. Because no matter how much you want to ignore it Rush defense is a major part of being either an OLB or a D-lineman.

D-lineman make a much more obvious impact. That does not mean they are all superior players.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 01:12 PM
Whatever dude. Your entire argument is that Doom makes plays when we win so he's better. You ignored that to end that 6-0 season Doom was still playing and getting ran all over and they lost 8 of 10. If he's more important to the success then he is more responsible for that failure as well. Especially since it was our run defense that failed us and not our DB's.

Your original question is who is our 5 best defensive players. To me that is Champ #1. He's our only elite player on defense at any position. That includes Doom. Because no matter how much you want to ignore it Rush defense is a major part of being either an OLB or a D-lineman.

D-lineman make a much more obvious impact. That does not mean they are all superior players.

You're wrong. Impact very much does factor in.

BroncoWave
09-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Doom is not worth 4 wins on his own.

Unless you're a QB no player is. I do think he's worth a win or two though.

BroncoWave
09-05-2011, 01:26 PM
You're wrong. Impact very much does factor in.

Your question didn't ask who the 5 most impactful players on the defense are. It asked who the 5 BEST are. Doom could have a bigger impact due to the nature of his position, but Champ could still be a better player. I would argue that Champ is a more complete player at his position than Doom is at his. Doom is an elite pass rusher, but he's not the best run stopper. Champ is an elite CB and an elite tackler in the pass and run games. He is a complete player.

Ravage!!!
09-05-2011, 01:28 PM
Unless you're a QB no player is. I do think he's worth a win or two though.

Maybe. I can't really say that any DE is "worth" a win. But I suppose there is a game or so somewhere in a season that the DE might make a sack that ends the possibility of a come back. However, then the argument could be made that the offense that scored enough to overtake the other team, could be the reason the team won (as a single example of many possible scenarios).

So yeah, maybe :salute:

Ravage!!!
09-05-2011, 01:30 PM
Your question didn't ask who the 5 most impactful players on the defense are. It asked who the 5 BEST are. Doom could have a bigger impact due to the nature of his position, but Champ could still be a better player. I would argue that Champ is a more complete player at his position than Doom is at his. Doom is an elite pass rusher, but he's not the best run stopper. Champ is an elite CB and an elite tackler in the pass and run games. He is a complete player.

Exactly.

I would put Champ over Doom in a heartbeat as our "best" defensive players.

Agent of Orange
09-05-2011, 01:32 PM
Your question didn't ask who the 5 most impactful players on the defense are. It asked who the 5 BEST are. Doom could have a bigger impact due to the nature of his position, but Champ could still be a better player. I would argue that Champ is a more complete player at his position than Doom is at his. Doom is an elite pass rusher, but he's not the best run stopper. Champ is an elite CB and an elite tackler in the pass and run games. He is a complete player.

Best encompasses impact, significance, or importance. Even if we had a punter who was better at his position than anyone else was at their position, I wouldn't put him as our best player. Same goes for long snappers.

Az Snake
09-05-2011, 03:28 PM
No because Champ is also one of the best FB players on our team.
CB has as much impact as a DE. His impact is just not seen by people who only watch the ball. A CB's impact is what gets those D-linemen their sacks.


I agree with you gregbroncs, it works both ways too.

When Jason Taylor, DE for Miami at the time, won the NFL Defensive MVP,
Champ Bailey had way more tackles that year than Jason did.
Champ has to play the run because the D-Line can't stop it.

If the D-Line can't do their job, the DBs can't shut down the secondary.

Works both ways.

Hopefully this season Denver can finally begin to stop the run,
let the DBs work the secondary and then guys like Doom and Von
can pin their ears back and slam a bunch of sacks in the ground.

Can't go by stats.
If you hear Doom and Von's name called a lot, the DBs are working it.
If you hear Champ and Co., the QB has too much time.

Of course, the whole DE/CB complementation won't even begin to gel
until Denver figures out a way to plug the run.


.

MOtorboat
09-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Your question didn't ask who the 5 most impactful players on the defense are. It asked who the 5 BEST are. Doom could have a bigger impact due to the nature of his position, but Champ could still be a better player. I would argue that Champ is a more complete player at his position than Doom is at his. Doom is an elite pass rusher, but he's not the best run stopper. Champ is an elite CB and an elite tackler in the pass and run games. He is a complete player.

Exactly.

Champ is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Dumervil has a lot to do to get there. Bailey is the Broncos best defensive player. Dumervil has the most impact. They are both elite players.

I Eat Staples
09-07-2011, 12:40 AM
I'd put Champ ahead of Doom as an overall player because I think Champ just may be the best corner ever, whereas Doom wouldn't even be in the conversation for best DE.

Let's not forget, as good as Doom is at rushing the passer is as bad as he is at stopping the run.

Canmore
09-07-2011, 12:48 AM
I'd put Champ ahead of Doom as an overall player because I think Champ just may be the best corner ever, whereas Doom wouldn't even be in the conversation for best DE.

Let's not forget, as good as Doom is at rushing the passer is as bad as he is at stopping the run.

Agreed. Champ is in the stratosphere of corners.

Doom looked better against the run in pre-season. Let's hope it continues now that the games count. ;)

Agent of Orange
09-07-2011, 12:55 AM
I'd put Champ ahead of Doom as an overall player because I think Champ just may be the best corner ever, whereas Doom wouldn't even be in the conversation for best DE.

Let's not forget, as good as Doom is at rushing the passer is as bad as he is at stopping the run.

Champ's not better than Deion. Once again, it's great that Champ can tackle and play the run, but he's not a better cover corner than Deion and that's the meat and bones of what corners do. Just like a left defensive end is generally a pass rush specialist and a left tackle is the best pass blocker.

I Eat Staples
09-07-2011, 01:00 AM
Champ's not better than Deion. Once again, it's great that Champ can tackle and play the run, but he's not a better cover corner than Deion and that's the meat and bones of what corners do. Just like a left defensive end is generally a pass rush specialist and a left tackle is the best pass blocker.

I know it is arguable, that's why I said he may be. Personally, I'd take Champ over Deion. Champ would be competing with Rod Woodson and Dick Lane for best ever IMO.

Nick
09-07-2011, 01:02 AM
Champ
DJ
Doom
Miller
Bunkley

If based on Impact you can put DJ Below Bunkley.

TXBRONC
09-07-2011, 10:50 AM
DJ first tned? He's just always been so average .

Champ
Dumervil
CLady
I guess Miller


pretty thin after that....maybe Kuper

I agree with Tned I think D.J. is one of our best players.

Champ
Dumervil
Williams
Clady
Kuper

vandammage13
09-07-2011, 11:33 AM
5 might be too many to name, but for the sake of conversation, here's my list:

1. Champ
2. Doom
3. Von
4. DJ
5. Uhhhhh.... maybe Dawk?

jhildebrand
09-07-2011, 11:45 AM
champ
dumervil
miller
warren (if healthy) if not then DJ
Rahim Moore

Northman
09-07-2011, 11:45 AM
I know it is arguable, that's why I said he may be. Personally, I'd take Champ over Deion. Champ would be competing with Rod Woodson and Dick Lane for best ever IMO.

Indeed.

As great as Deion was he wasnt a complete corner especially late in his career. Champ does all the little things that Deion never cared about.

Nick
09-07-2011, 12:11 PM
I agree with Tned I think D.J. is one of our best players.

Champ
Dumervil
Williams
Clady
Kuper

:lol:
I didn't even think about offense.

gregbroncs
09-07-2011, 12:46 PM
:lol:
I didn't even think about offense.

Well the question was 5 best defensive players.

I made the mistake of putting in Clady before I realized. :)

BroncoNut
09-07-2011, 12:51 PM
without looking, here goes. and this is for going into the Oakland game.

Dumerville
Champ Bailey
Miller


not sure on the rest

Nick
09-07-2011, 01:14 PM
Well the question was 5 best defensive players.

I made the mistake of putting in Clady before I realized. :)

ok... :shocked:

MOtorboat
09-07-2011, 01:23 PM
ok... :shocked:

Maybe Clady can play ironman football?

I wasn't worried with Warren and Bunkley. I am worried with Vickerson/Thomas and Bunkley.

Agent of Orange
11-14-2011, 07:20 PM
bump

jhildebrand
11-16-2011, 01:57 PM
champ
dumervil
miller
warren (if healthy) if not then DJ
Rahim Moore

You're an idiot!

As the season as progressed the 5 clearly are:

Champ
Miller
McGahee
Decker
Tebow

Don't you know anything? :confused: