Tebow's Mechanics

[LawDog]

Watched the game last night and noticed a couple of things that got me thinking about what contributes to Tebow's struggles with mechanics. 1) When he was in the shotgun, the snap was consistently going to the right side of his body - including one that went way wide right. 2) When taking snaps under center, Tebow holds his hands the same as a right-handed QB, i.e. right hand above and left hand below.

When in the shotgun, if the ball is coming to his right side, there is a delay as he catches the snap then rotates his shoulders around to the left to start his throwing motion. At the speed of the NFL, this extra delay in setting up is significant. Plus he would have to stop the rotating momentum from the right side prior to starting his throw - a momentum that would not be there if the ball was being delivered to his throwing side.

When under center, with the ball on top of his throwing hand he is bringing his left arm back with his forearm facing up. This fact alone forces his left shoulder down and moves the start of his throwing motion toward his hip as he pulls the ball back. A right-handed QB moves the ball back with his throwing forearm facing down allowing him to pull the ball straight back to his shoulder which is the prototypical/ideal starting place for a pro-level throwing motion. Stand up right now and go through both motions with your hands starting from the same right-on-top position and you'll feel what I'm talking about. At best, drawing back to the left is a curving swing rather than a nice tight coiling of the arm back to the shoulder.

I've long noticed that lefties coming in as backups often struggle. I've read some things about receivers having trouble adjusting to the throw coming from a lefty but have not seen anything about the issues prior to the throw. I have to believe that lefty starters eventually develop a rhythm with their center that minimizes or eliminates these issues. I wonder if the center Steve Young played with adjusted the way he snapped the ball to accommodate a left-on-top position.

Anyway, just an observation...

[Denver Native (Carol)]

So, if this is the case, would it not all be on the center to snap the ball where Tebow would not be the one having to make the adjustments?

[LawDog]

So, if this is the case, would it not all be on the center to snap the ball where Tebow would not be the one having to make the adjustments?

Essentially yes, but I think it is a pretty complicated thing for a center to do in reality - and certainly when switching between right and left-handed QBs. If a lefty is your starter the significantly increased amount of reps would help.

[NightTerror218]

I would think it would not be much of an adjustment since they look back on a shotgun snap and they just aim to left a lil. At this level they should be able to do that. As for under center that is all up to Tebow to change what he is doing. Needs to adjust how he takes them. WHich would require practicing with center.

[BroncoNut]

I would think it would not be much of an adjustment since they look back on a shotgun snap and they just aim to left a lil. At this level they should be able to do that. As for under center that is all up to Tebow to change what he is doing. Needs to adjust how he takes them. WHich would require practicing with center.

yeah, they'd need to sit down and figure that out between themselves really. You know what I mean?

[SpringsBroncoFan]

I'm sure it really helps any QB to have 2 centers with 7 pro bowls during your career...

Jesse Sapolu started 3 years, 2 pro bowls; Bart Oats started 1 year, 5 pro bowls.

Chris Dalman started 2 years and was chopped liver because he only got to play center when the other two guys were gone. :lol:

[LawDog]

I would think it would not be much of an adjustment since they look back on a shotgun snap and they just aim to left a lil. At this level they should be able to do that. As for under center that is all up to Tebow to change what he is doing. Needs to adjust how he takes them. WHich would require practicing with center.

The center has his head up and looking forward when snapping the ball (or else he would be in intensive care in short order). Muscle memory takes over from there. In the shotgun, moving the ball a couple of feet to the left is hard to do without lots of reps. Maybe Tebow could stand a bit farther to the right to compensate but it would be pretty difficult for the center to do it effectively when switching between right and left-handed QBs.

As for adjusting under center, you've missed my point. Tebow has adjusted from what would be a natural position (left hand on top) to the typical position. It is precisely that adjustment that creates the mechanical problems I described. Centers snap the ball with the right hand (I can't think of any who snap with their left) which puts the ball in a certain attitude when it hits the QB's hands. It is not perfectly square to the body but hits at a slight angle with the left point slightly forward and the right point slightly back. If a QB tried to receive the ball with his left hand on top he would be gripping the ball with his fingers instead of his palm.

[Dzone]

who was playing center for those dreadful snaps? He should be cut.

[NightTerror218]

The center has his head up and looking forward when snapping the ball (or else he would be in intensive care in short order). Muscle memory takes over from there. In the shotgun, moving the ball a couple of feet to the left is hard to do without lots of reps. Maybe Tebow could stand a bit farther to the right to compensate but it would be pretty difficult for the center to do it effectively when switching between right and left-handed QBs.

As for adjusting under center, you've missed my point. Tebow has adjusted from what would be a natural position (left hand on top) to the typical position. It is precisely that adjustment that creates the mechanical problems I described. Centers snap the ball with the right hand (I can't think of any who snap with their left) which puts the ball in a certain attitude when it hits the QB's hands. It is not perfectly square to the body but hits at a slight angle with the left point slightly forward and the right point slightly back. If a QB tried to receive the ball with his left hand on top he would be gripping the ball with his fingers instead of his palm.

Gotchya

[nevcraw]

this is a cool thread!

[Ravage!!!]

I'm more curious why Tebow would have his right hand on top when taking snaps from under center. Thats pretty odd.

[SOCALORADO.]

I'm more curious why Tebow would have his right hand on top when taking snaps from under center. Thats pretty odd.

Maybe if he did it like this..
http://www.consumermiser.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ConsumerMiser-from-Flickr-Andrew-Luck.jpg

[LawDog]

Maybe if he did it like this..
http://www.consumermiser.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ConsumerMiser-from-Flickr-Andrew-Luck.jpg

This actually demonstrates my point perfectly. Look at how the right-handed Andrew Luck is starting with his left shoulder dropped...

[BroncoNut]

This actually demonstrates my point perfectly. Look at how the right-handed Andrew Luck is starting with his left shoulder dropped...

yep. this seems pretty trivial to me.

[weazel]

damn, I seen the title of this thread and thought I was gonna get the answer as to where Tim took his car to get fixed

[Cugel]

I'm not an expert on this but John Elway is and he commented publicly on Tebow's mechanics problems.

Tebow's problem is in the footwork and squaring his shoulders. If the feet are properly aligned after his three step drop then his body is properly aligned and the throw will go where his body is pointing. Accuracy depends on this. Having to THINK about getting into the proper position is fatal. It's like golf. If you have to think about your swing, you can't develop any consistency.

When running with the ball you need to stop and plant to throw accurately downfield -- at least if you're throwing more than just a dump-off pass.

Being able to do these things accurately requires endless practice. Orton has been practicing from under center for 10 years now in College and the NFL. Tebow came to the NFL with virtually NO such practice since he operated from the shot-gun in the spread offense at Florida and it shows.

It's by no means certain that he can EVER really master those skills adequately, but we'll see. :coffee:

[BroncoJoe]

I'm a lefty and I take (took) snaps with my right hand on top.

Don't think that's an issue.

[LTC Pain]

So, because Tebow has not adjusted to where the center snaps the ball it has caused his bad throwing mechanics??? I'm confused???

[LawDog]

I'm not an expert on this but John Elway is and he commented publicly on Tebow's mechanics problems.

Tebow's problem is in the footwork and squaring his shoulders. If the feet are properly aligned after his three step drop then his body is properly aligned and the throw will go where his body is pointing. Accuracy depends on this. Having to THINK about getting into the proper position is fatal. It's like golf. If you have to think about your swing, you can't develop any consistency.

When running with the ball you need to stop and plant to throw accurately downfield -- at least if you're throwing more than just a dump-off pass.

Being able to do these things accurately requires endless practice. Orton has been practicing from under center for 10 years now in College and the NFL. Tebow came to the NFL with virtually NO such practice since he operated from the shot-gun in the spread offense at Florida and it shows.

It's by no means certain that he can EVER really master those skills adequately, but we'll see. :coffee:

When Elway was working with Tebow after practice a couple of weeks ago it wasn't on footwork and shoulder squaring, they were discussing hand position when under center.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18719025

"And what Elway was doing for much of the time was simply showing Tebow how he should position his hands to accept a snap from center."

[LawDog]

I'm a lefty and I take (took) snaps with my right hand on top.

Don't think that's an issue.

No offense Joe, but the points I'm making relate to fairly subtle factors that likely would not create an issue unless playing at the extremely high level that is required of NFL quarterbacks. Even college masks a lot of physical flaws that players have that prove to be fatal when transitioning to the pros. Unless of course, you have experience playing pro football.

[PAINTERDAVE]

And IF Tebow can simply make things happen and win games...
move the ball say..
94 yards on a TD drive...

do his mechanincs really matter?

Is it about winning or is it about pleasing football analysts?

The kid just needs some experience....
then he will be who he is.

The over-analyzation of every facet of his game is doing him no good.

At some point... he will get a shot and he will show what he can do...
beyond practice and trying to force "Prototypical NFL" mechanincs.

The hyper criticism is over the top.

He is our sophmore backup QB. He will improve... over time.

Your points are good... it may be that he could address the issue..
but dont you think he has discussed it with McCoy?

Is there no one on the team who has noticed this?

He hasn't ever thought about it?

[PAINTERDAVE]

When Elway was working with Tebow after practice a couple of weeks ago it wasn't on footwork and shoulder squaring, they were discussing hand position when under center.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18719025

"And what Elway was doing for much of the time was simply showing Tebow how he should position his hands to accept a snap from center."

So Elway is addressing the issue with him....

[BroncoJoe]

No offense Joe, but the points I'm making relate to fairly subtle factors that likely would not create an issue unless playing at the extremely high level that is required of NFL quarterbacks. Even college masks a lot of physical flaws that players have that prove to be fatal when transitioning to the pros. Unless of course, you have experience playing pro football.

Unfortunately not. Did you? Not being sarcastic, but some of the greatest QB's have mentioned leave his throwing mechanics alone and focus on footwork. I really don't think accepting the ball with his right hand on top makes a bit of difference, personally. Us lefties live in a right-handed world. You wouldn't believe how many things we just get used to being "backwards" so to speak. To change some of those minor things at this point would be the opposite of what he's been doing his entire playing career.

[LawDog]

I agree Paint, winning cures all and I've never really had an issue with Tebow's throwing motion. Heck, Rivers' delivery is butt-ugly and he has managed to have a successful career.

I was mostly posting this because I was curious if the fact that he is a lefty adapting to a right-handed world was creating some factors that lead to him developing his unique throwing motion.

I also think coaches might have a tough time teaching lefties due to the motions being reversed. It seems like it wouldn't matter, but when you are trying to demonstrate it could present some issues.

I don't think this is the magic key to "fixing" Tebow. I don't think he needs fixing at all, just more time and experience.

*** same response to BroncoJoe ***

[silkamilkamonico]

tebow is goingto get one of our wrs killed eventually with his lofting toss

[LawDog]

tebow is goingto get one of our wrs killed eventually with his lofting toss

Phillip Rivers throws passes with hang times that can be measured with a sundial. Yet, Chargers wr's remain among the living...

[Northman]

His "loftyness" didnt seem a problem on the 43 yd TD pass. Every QB has some bad throws, to pretend otherwise is just moronic.

[silkamilkamonico]

it was certainly a problem on his pass to david anderson.

[Northman]

it was certainly a problem on his pass to david anderson.

Even the best of them make bad passes that puts receivers in harms way. Much ado about nothing. Its a physical game and there are risks. :rolleyes:

[sneakers]

No Moar tebow threads

[PAINTERDAVE]

tebow is goingto get one of our wrs killed eventually with his lofting toss

They had this discussion on the radio today...
they talked of how EVERY QB in the game could be
accused of the same thing.

They gave example after example of
plays this preseason by elite QB's who
"Hung their guy out to dry"...

it is part of the game...
when a wideout goes across the middle
and the QB throws into the seam...
violent hits happen.

Crikey..
how MANY circus catches did Lloyd make last season?
but you are not slamming Kyle for his crappy placements.

[sneakers]

http://pawsru.org/fc/src/fc87760_Thread-Crap-Die.jpg

[MOtorboat]

Crikey..
how MANY circus catches did Lloyd make last season?
but you are not slamming Kyle for his crappy placements.

That's not even remotely the same thing. Not even close.

[MOtorboat]

Unfortunately not. Did you? Not being sarcastic, but some of the greatest QB's have mentioned leave his throwing mechanics alone and focus on footwork. I really don't think accepting the ball with his right hand on top makes a bit of difference, personally. Us lefties live in a right-handed world. You wouldn't believe how many things we just get used to being "backwards" so to speak. To change some of those minor things at this point would be the opposite of what he's been doing his entire playing career.

I'm with Joe on this one. Changing which hand he uses to back away from center probably won't do much.

[BroncoJoe]

If scissors were formed to fit the left hand, I still couldn't use them. WAY to used to using my right hand at this point.

It would be nice if I could find a tape-measure for lefties though...

[Ravage!!!]

Unfortunately not. Did you? Not being sarcastic, but some of the greatest QB's have mentioned leave his throwing mechanics alone and focus on footwork. I really don't think accepting the ball with his right hand on top makes a bit of difference, personally. Us lefties live in a right-handed world. You wouldn't believe how many things we just get used to being "backwards" so to speak. To change some of those minor things at this point would be the opposite of what he's been doing his entire playing career.

If you've EVER had to take snaps from center, then you know it makes a difference. It has NOTHING to do with throwing the ball, but it certainly has to do with exchanging the ball into the throwing hand while dropping back.

A right handed QB has his hand on top so that the ball snaps back and lays the laces right on his fingers. Same would be for the left handed QB if his left was on top. The Center obviously would have to hold the ball slightly different before the snap for each individual QB, depending on where they like the laces to hit across their fingers.

However, with a Left handed QB under center putting his left hand underneath, the ball is NOT snapping into the throwing hand, but the other hand. The center will have to snap the ball upside down (in a sense) so that the laces end up downward and to the left hand. If not, the QB would not have the laces on the throwing hand at the snap and would require time in which to spin the ball. Those quick slants wouldn't work out so well.

The point is simple. Its not a HUGE thing, but its one more small thing that piles onto all the other small things. Is it something that would make him a better passer? Nope. But it may add .5 seconds to his timing. Its like the expression "last straw that broke the camels back." Each individual straw wasn't a problem, its all the strands of indiviual straws that accumulate to a bigger problem. This is just a small example, or individual straw, that would probably be better if it were correct.

[BroncoJoe]

If you've EVER had to take snaps from center, then you know it makes a difference. It has NOTHING to do with throwing the ball, but it certainly has to do with exchanging the ball into the throwing hand while dropping back.

A right handed QB has his hand on top so that the ball snaps back and lays the laces right on his fingers. Same would be for the left handed QB if his left was on top. The Center obviously would have to hold the ball slightly different before the snap for each individual QB, depending on where they like the laces to hit across their fingers.

Are you left handed? I ask because your statement above make me think no. There is zero difference between having your right or left hand on top.

However, with a Left handed QB under center putting his left hand underneath, the ball is NOT snapping into the throwing hand, but the other hand. The center will have to snap the ball upside down (in a sense) so that the laces end up downward and to the left hand. If not, the QB would not have the laces on the throwing hand at the snap and would require time in which to spin the ball. Those quick slants wouldn't work out so well.

This is just simply inaccurate. Think about it for a minute please. Having your left hand on the underside places the ball in a position where you don't have to "palm" the ball. Believe me, it makes absolutely zero difference.

The point is simple. Its not a HUGE thing, but its one more small thing that piles onto all the other small things. Is it something that would make him a better passer? Nope. But it may add .5 seconds to his timing. Its like the expression "last straw that broke the camels back." Each individual straw wasn't a problem, its all the strands of indiviual straws that accumulate to a bigger problem. This is just a small example, or individual straw, that would probably be better if it were correct.


Footwork, footwork, and more footwork.

[Softskull]

I stole this from Springstein over at KFFL. (thanks George). Preseason stats.

1 Matthew Stafford DET QB 154.7
2 Ben Roethlisberger PIT QB 146.6
3 Aaron Rodgers GB QB 130.1
4 Derek Anderson CAR QB 129.4
5 Richard Bartel ARI QB 115.5
6 Philip Rivers SD QB 114.8
7 Shaun Hill DET QB 113.6
8 Tim Tebow DEN QB 108.3
9 Rudy Carpenter TB QB 104.1
10 Kyle Orton DEN QB 104.1
11 Mark Sanchez NYJ QB 102.9
12 Colt McCoy CLE QB 101.7

Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/289496-Arizona-game/page2#ixzz1Wu0dHZBM

[Ravage!!!]

ITS A PAIN IN THE ASS WHEN YOU GUYS WRITE WITHIN THE QUOTE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN'T QUOTE YOU.



Are you left handed? I ask because your statement above make me think no. There is zero difference between having your right or left hand on top.
WRONG. You are just FLAT OUT WRONG. YOu are so wrong you can't even SEE right. It has NOTHING to do with not being left handed, but has EVERYHTING to do with knowing how to play QB. You OBVIOUSLY have never played the position, and have OBVIOUSLY never taken snaps under center.




This is just simply inaccurate. Think about it for a minute please. Having your left hand on the underside places the ball in a position where you don't have to "palm" the ball. Believe me, it makes absolutely zero difference.
I don't have to think about it, I know. I have NO idea what you are talking about with the "palm" the ball. You don't "palm" the ball when receiving a snap. However, I do know that having his left hand UNDER the ball would require him to raise his hand and clamp down with this throwing hand, FINDING the laces as opposed to having them snapped directly into his fingers.


Its fine that you've never played QB. I get and understand that you don't truly understand the mechanics of how this "seemingly" simple pairing of teamwork works. But its an odd fumdamental that is backwards. Can you make something backwards work? sure. But its still fundamentally incorrect and when you have a QB that is already fundamentally incorrect in so many ways.. don't tell me it makes ZERO diffence. EVERYTHING makes a difference.

Quit standing up and defending the backwards way as if we are prejudice against the left handed, and its your duty to proclaim that you are "no different." :protest:

[Ravage!!!]

I stole this from Springstein over at KFFL. (thanks George). Preseason stats.

1 Matthew Stafford DET QB 154.7
2 Ben Roethlisberger PIT QB 146.6
3 Aaron Rodgers GB QB 130.1
4 Derek Anderson CAR QB 129.4
5 Richard Bartel ARI QB 115.5
6 Philip Rivers SD QB 114.8
7 Shaun Hill DET QB 113.6
8 Tim Tebow DEN QB 108.3
9 Rudy Carpenter TB QB 104.1
10 Kyle Orton DEN QB 104.1
11 Mark Sanchez NYJ QB 102.9
12 Colt McCoy CLE QB 101.7

Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/289496-Arizona-game/page2#ixzz1Wu0dHZBM

Its facinating to see, but really, I just can't take ANYTHING preseason seriously. The stats are meaningless because the game plans, the defenses, theoffenses.. just are nothing. The veteran players for the most part don't give a flying shit. You never know if the defensive coordinator is throwing in a rookie for this or for that. You never know if he's just simply taking a look a a defensive call just to take a look at it, since they didn't come in and game-plan against the offense. Its just like calling a defense for fun. Has nothing to do with knowing the tendencies, or making the right matchups.

Although I do have Stafford in a fantasy league, so I hope it continues down this path! :beer:

[BroncoJoe]

ITS A PAIN IN THE ASS WHEN YOU GUYS WRITE WITHIN THE QUOTE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN'T QUOTE YOU.



WRONG. You are just FLAT OUT WRONG. YOu are so wrong you can't even SEE right. It has NOTHING to do with not being left handed, but has EVERYHTING to do with knowing how to play QB. You OBVIOUSLY have never played the position, and have OBVIOUSLY never taken snaps under center.




I don't have to think about it, I know. I have NO idea what you are talking about with the "palm" the ball. You don't "palm" the ball when receiving a snap. However, I do know that having his left hand UNDER the ball would require him to raise his hand and clamp down with this throwing hand, FINDING the laces as opposed to having them snapped directly into his fingers.

Believe me, you are inaccurate on this.


Its fine that you've never played QB. I get and understand that you don't truly understand the mechanics of how this "seemingly" simple pairing of teamwork works. But its an odd fumdamental that is backwards. Can you make something backwards work? sure. But its still fundamentally incorrect and when you have a QB that is already fundamentally incorrect in so many ways.. don't tell me it makes ZERO diffence. EVERYTHING makes a difference.

Quit standing up and defending the backwards way as if we are prejudice against the left handed, and its your duty to proclaim that you are "no different."

You are clearly not left handed. End of story. I have played QB. What you don't understand is that placing my left hand on top is completely awkward. It is not natural. Everything you said above is completely wrong. Accept it and move on. tia.

PS - the ball is rarely snapped with the laces automatically placed in the right position. You've clearly never played QB.

[Softskull]

Its facinating to see, but really, I just can't take ANYTHING preseason seriously. The stats are meaningless because the game plans, the defenses, theoffenses.. just are nothing. The veteran players for the most part don't give a flying shit. You never know if the defensive coordinator is throwing in a rookie for this or for that. You never know if he's just simply taking a look a a defensive call just to take a look at it, since they didn't come in and game-plan against the offense. Its just like calling a defense for fun. Has nothing to do with knowing the tendencies, or making the right matchups.

Although I do have Stafford in a fantasy league, so I hope it continues down this path! :beer:

I hear ya, but also found it interesting. Those are good stats, but they certainly don't match what I saw in Tebow's limited playing time. The kid's raw and still needs lots o' work. That being said, our second and third stringers are so bad, it's amazing Tebow's numbers are so good.

[Ravage!!!]

You are clearly not left handed. End of story. I have played QB. What you don't understand is that placing my left hand on top is completely awkward. It is not natural. Everything you said above is completely wrong. Accept it and move on. tia.

PS - the ball is rarely snapped with the laces automatically placed in the right position. You've clearly never played QB.

Rarely? Dude.. you have obviously played QB at a low level, and thats your total experience. I'm not going to get into this childish pissing game with you. So please don't give me this crap about me obviously not playing QB if you don't know how well a ball is snapped. You just proved you have no clue.

But you are right. I'm not left handed and have never taken left handed snaps. I will admit that I don't know the difference on the feel of the snap when it comes to that. Perhaps with a right handed center and a right handed QB,the ball is tilted in the right direction, and that is what makes the difference with a lefty.

However, to even suggest that everything I just said is wrong after you just proved not to know how to take a snap is laughable. I'm guessing, if you found that the laces are "Rarely" in the right position, its because you are left handed and have to have your hand on the bottom while you are not "Palming" the ball :lol:

[LawDog]

You are clearly not left handed. End of story. I have played QB. What you don't understand is that placing my left hand on top is completely awkward. It is not natural. Everything you said above is completely wrong. Accept it and move on. tia.

PS - the ball is rarely snapped with the laces automatically placed in the right position. You've clearly never played QB.

I like you Joe, I really do, but you're comparing apples and oranges with your experience playing QB vs. what happens at the pro level. As an example, you can drive your car around all day with one of the tires low on air pressure -- will wear out your tire and cause other long term issues but won't have an impact on you getting to the store -- but in a race car, even a change of less than a pound of air pressure has a huge impact on the car's handling. At the pro level of football where the speed of the game is everything, a little thing like the motion used to bring the ball back from center where your throwing hand is upside down can make a big difference.

That's all I was saying with this thread. Stop trying to equate your experience with what I'm talking about - it just ain't the same no matter how hard you try to convince yourself that it is.

[CoachChaz]

One of my 13 year old twins plays QB and is left-handed. He also puts his right hand on top on snaps. During his 3 and 5 step drops he has plenty of time to simply roll his wrist. The only pas it may effect his mechanics on is a quick 1 step slant, but since neither he, nor the Broncos work in a Run and Shoot offense...it's a non-issue for any lefty.

Yeah...he's only 13...but if he can work with it...I'm sure an NFL player can as well.

[BroncoJoe]

OK guys - you're right. I've never seen a QB (left or right handed) have to move/twirl the ball to get the laces in the right position after taking a snap. The laces automatically end up in the perfect position at the NFL level. My bad.

[Northman]

PS - the ball is rarely snapped with the laces automatically placed in the right position. You've clearly never played QB.

This much is true. I cant speak on being left handed but when taking snaps as a QB you very often have to spin the ball to get the laces in the correct position before setting up and throwing.

[BroncoJoe]

This much is true. I cant speak on being left handed but when taking snaps as a QB you very often have to spin the ball to get the laces in the correct position before setting up and throwing.

But North, this is the NFL! The ball is ALWAYS snapped 100% correct EVERY TIME!

[Northman]

But North, this is the NFL! The ball is ALWAYS snapped 100% correct EVERY TIME!

And that is absolute horseshit. No pun intended of course. :D

[Ravage!!!]

OK guys - you're right. I've never seen a QB (left or right handed) have to move/twirl the ball to get the laces in the right position after taking a snap. The laces automatically end up in the perfect position at the NFL level. My bad.

Why would you have to "observe" or "see" a QB having to do this if you have such vast experience playing QB?

When you work with a center on a regular basis, he holds the ball the exact same way and practices to snap the ball the exact same way every time. Placeing the ball in the same place EACH snap. Your hands and fingers strike the ball/laces just millimeters apart from each snap. There is such TINY variances between snaps

The ONLY time you will see a QB have to "spin" or "twirl" the ball to get it into the right place, is when they receiving the ball from SHOT Gun. If you guys have ever worked with a center with any length of time, you would know this.

[Northman]

Why would you have to "observe" or "see" a QB having to do this if you have such vast experience playing QB?

When you work with a center on a regular basis, he holds the ball the exact same way and practices to snap the ball the exact same way every time. Placeing the ball in the same place EACH snap. Your hands and fingers strike the ball/laces just millimeters apart from each snap. There is such TINY variances between snaps

The ONLY time you will see a QB have to "spin" or "twirl" the ball to get it into the right place, is when they receiving the ball from SHOT Gun. If you guys have ever worked with a center with any length of time, you would know this.

This is factually incorrect. While the logistics of it all does improve dramatically under center its still an imperfect science and isnt done 100% of the time like you elude too. Thats just false on your part Rav.

[BroncoJoe]

Why would you have to "observe" or "see" a QB having to do this if you have such vast experience playing QB?

When you work with a center on a regular basis, he holds the ball the exact same way and practices to snap the ball the exact same way every time. Placeing the ball in the same place EACH snap. Your hands and fingers strike the ball/laces just millimeters apart from each snap. There is such TINY variances between snaps

The ONLY time you will see a QB have to "spin" or "twirl" the ball to get it into the right place, is when they receiving the ball from SHOT Gun. If you guys have ever worked with a center with any length of time, you would know this.

Dude, get over yourself. In the future, I'll try to remember you're the expert on everything. Tell me again what level of experience you have on the subject?

Save the condescending remarks.

[Ravage!!!]

This is factually incorrect. While the logistics of it all does improve dramatically under center its still an imperfect science and isnt done 100% of the time like you elude too. Thats just false on your part Rav.

Come on. No one is aying 100% of the time. No one is saying PERFECT. But I promise you that the snaps hit within millimeters or the same spot each and everytime. Are there occasions when there is a mis-snap, of course. Otherwise there wouldn't be fumbles (although that generally is the QB and not the center).

But I NEVER got a snap from under center that I had to "spin" or "twirl" in order to find the laces. If I did, that meant the center held the ball completely backwards while bent over at the LoS...and would be completely awkward for him. That, or we would get a new center. A shift in the ball, of course. Hell, I can hold the ball in my own hands and have to "shift" it after a moment.

But the laces hit your fingers nearly in the exact spot every time, to the point that calluses form on those spots on your fingers. You take so many snaps in practice, and your center snaps so many times... practicing.. that its second nature. He holds the ball the same way, snaps the same way, and hits the same spot every time. Your hands lay the same place, and you ride the same way so that its a second nature exchange. Of coure there are millimeters in variances, but thats all it is. Its not inches... its not even half inch.

The only time you have to make a major turn of the ball to put it in your hands the correct way is when in shotgun.

[Ravage!!!]

Dude, get over yourself. In the future, I'll try to remember you're the expert on everything. Tell me again what level of experience you have on the subject?

Save the condescending remarks.

You are talking to ME about condecending remarks? :lol: Irony at its best.

[Northman]

Come on. No one is aying 100% of the time. No one is saying PERFECT.


But that is what you were saying Rav. So while i agree "spinning" might be an overexaggeration you still have to rotate the ball after its snapped to get it into position. I think you freaked out over the word "Spin" a little too much.

[BroncoJoe]

Come on. No one is aying 100% of the time. No one is saying PERFECT. But I promise you that the snaps hit within millimeters or the same spot each and everytime. Are there occasions when there is a mis-snap, of course. Otherwise there wouldn't be fumbles (although that generally is the QB and not the center).

But I NEVER got a snap from under center that I had to "spin" or "twirl" in order to find the laces. If I did, that meant the center held the ball completely backwards while bent over at the LoS...and would be completely awkward for him. That, or we would get a new center. A shift in the ball, of course. Hell, I can hold the ball in my own hands and have to "shift" it after a moment.

But the laces hit your fingers nearly in the exact spot every time, to the point that calluses form on those spots on your fingers. You take so many snaps in practice, and your center snaps so many times... practicing.. that its second nature. He holds the ball the same way, snaps the same way, and hits the same spot every time. Your hands lay the same place, and you ride the same way so that its a second nature exchange. Of coure there are millimeters in variances, but thats all it is. Its not inches... its not even half inch.

The only time you have to make a major turn of the ball to put it in your hands the correct way is when in shotgun.

Exactly. So why change it?

[Ravage!!!]

Exactly. So why change it?

With Tebow?? :lol: He never took snaps from under center. He's still bad at it. If there is a time to work on something with Tebow from under center, its NOW in his infant stage of learning.

[Ravage!!!]

But that is what you were saying Rav. So while i agree "spinning" might be an overexaggeration you still have to rotate the ball after its snapped to get it into position. I think you freaked out over the word "Spin" a little too much.

No. I didn't. You guys overexaggerating and claiming we are saying the snaps are 100% perfect. Then claiming you've "never" had to see a QB spin or twirl in order to find the laces after a snap (which you haven't).

It doesn't matter to me. I know that joe doesn't know what he's talking about and his back-n-forth words of expressing what he "means" (or in this case, you trying to shift it for him) isn't hiding that fact.

The ball nearly hits the same spot every time. There is not "palming" the football after the snap.. and the QB doesn't have to spin it in order to find the laces. I'm sticking with the original comment just as it was phrased then. Making a slight adjustment/shift is much differnt than claiming that QBs often need to spin or twirl the ball. Normally this conversation wouldn't happen other than the fact that those claims COMPLETELY change the point of the origin of why this came to topic.

As I stated before. I'm not left handed and have never taken a snap as a left hander. As I said before, perhaps a right handed center with a left handed QB makes the difference in the angle of the ball that makes it a MUST as to the QB having to put his hand on the bottom. But Joe making claims that these thigns don't matter, and its ONLY the footwork is the problem, is absurd on its own merit.

[BroncoJoe]

Yup.

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