Critics of Tebow's critics have it wrong

[Ravage!!!]

Critics of Tebow's critics have it wrong

By Rick Reilly
ESPN.com

Randy Cross doesn't know me. Wouldn't know me if I stuck my thumb in his chili. So why did he just accuse me of being anti-Christian??

Two weeks ago, I wrote that Tim Tebow is not cutting it in the NFL. According to sources I quoted within the Denver Broncos, he is not within a plastic spork of cutting it. Doesn't mean he won't someday. It's just that right now, the thousands of guys wearing his jersey in the stands have as good a chance of starting as he does.


http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/6898262/critics-tebow-critics-wrong

[Ravage!!!]

I think Riley has some good points. How is it that anyone that says something critical of Tebow is doing it base on his religion, instead of just treating him like any other high-profile athlete?

[Northman]

This is the only thing Rick needed to say.


Doesn't mean he won't someday.

As to the accusations of being anti-christian i think thats garbage too. Thats just as bad as painting somebody a racist. Tebow has issues but he needs a year or so to work on those things and i believe Denver will give him the chance to do it while still building the rest of the team.

[BroncoBJ]

I just don't understand why he gets critisized more then any other Player it seems like? Makes me just want him to suceed even more. :elefant:

I just hope that we don't give up on him. I don't care if he sits for 4 years, I just want him to have a chance with us. Because I know I'd be pissed if we let him go and he goes somewhere else and becomes a legit or great QB. I'd rather start him for a season or 2 and see that he doesn't have it, rather then let him go elsewhere.

But time will tell. I've been a Broncos fan before and will be one after Tebow, so doesn't matter too much. Just wanna win. :elefant:

[Watchthemiddle]

BUuuutttt...if you praise Tebow or give him props, your a Tebow lover, Tebowner, etc.

Can't have it both ways.

I just wish this would all stop...like more posts to stir the pot.

[Tned]

BUuuutttt...if you praise Tebow or give him props, your a Tebow lover, Tebowner, etc.

Can't have it both ways.

I just wish this would all stop...like more posts to stir the pot.

Nothing new. Same happened with people that praised Plummer, then those that praised Cutler, then those that praised Orton (ok, they're just called crazy or homers).

Nature of the beast with Denver fans and QBs since Elway. Always seems like about half the fans like/love the current one, and the other have hates him/wants him replaced.

[BroncoBJ]

Nothing new. Same happened with people that praised Plummer, then those that praised Cutler, then those that praised Orton (ok, they're just called crazy or homers).

Nature of the beast with Denver fans and QBs since Elway. Always seems like about half the fans like/love the current one, and the other have hates him/wants him replaced.

Yea, you basically cant have an opinion. Just have to like the Broncos and shut up basically or else you'll get called a Tebow lover or a hater, ect.. Kinda entertaining tho I guess :salute:

[PAINTERDAVE]

Tim's play tonight , behind a crappy o-line..
makes all these detractors...
WAY OFF BASE.

He came back for the win in the 4th Q..
he did what they said he can not do...

he is a developing 2nd year backup QB..

He has ben paid...
he is here under contract..
and when the time is right..
soon enough.

he will get his shot.

[Northman]

Tim's play tonight , behind a crappy o-line..
makes all these detractors...
WAY OFF BASE.

He came back for the win in the 4th Q..
he did what they said he can not do...

he is a developing 2nd year backup QB..

He has ben paid...
he is here under contract..
and when the time is right..
soon enough.

he will get his shot.


I hope so.

I can live with Orton playing this year so as long as we dont go drafting yet another unproven QB in the first next year. Like you, i want to see Tebow get his shot. Get his shot with the starters and all. I have faith in Elway and Fox that they will do the right thing here.

[Tned]

Yea, you basically cant have an opinion. Just have to like the Broncos and shut up basically or else you'll get called a Tebow lover or a hater, ect.. Kinda entertaining tho I guess :salute:

Exactly.

[hamrob]

You know. I think the religion is part of it...though, not "the" reason why he has so many critics.

I think NFL types get pissed off because of the amount of attention Tim Tebow receives. They look at him and they go, this guy hasn't done anything in the NFL and the whole world is talking about him. He has commericals talking about how great he is, a short film about his draft story, he wrote a flippin biography already...and it's a best seller!

That eats up guys with small minds like Boomer and Hoge. Makes them ugly. Has them look for anything to rip the guy about.

It's really too bad, that there aren't more announcers that can't see through that ugliness!

[PAINTERDAVE]

I hope so.

I can live with Orton playing this year so as long as we dont go drafting yet another unproven QB in the first next year. Like you, i want to see Tebow get his shot. Get his shot with the starters and all. I have faith in Elway and Fox that they will do the right thing here.

I like the idea... however...

I expect EFX to draft another QB next year as well.
Another guy to sit the bench for a few years...
then we would either have a great Tebow and a good young backup...

or if Tebow fails.. then the backup is there in place.

Quinn re-signing is a question mark..

he may want to test the free agent waters....
and not deal with the tebow issue here in Denver.

I would guess, though, that we have Quinn, Tebow and
a rookie next year on our QB roster.

[Northman]

I like the idea... however...

I expect EFX to draft another QB next year as well.
Another guy to sit the bench for a few years...
then we would either have a great Tebow and a good young backup...

or if Tebow fails.. then the backup is there in place.

Quinn re-signing is a question mark..

he may want to test the free agent waters....
and not deal with the tebow issue here in Denver.

I would guess, though, that we have Quinn, Tebow and
a rookie next year on our QB roster.


Sure, but i doubt it will be a early rounder. Without all the uncertainity with Quinn and Tebow it would be moronic to draft a first round QB at this point in time. Like i said, i expect the higher ups to do the right thing and use their brains regarding the QB position and if they are not going to use this year to evaluate either Tebow or Quinn (at least for now) than they should sit pat in terms of looking early for a QB next year.

[Lancane]

You know. I think the religion is part of it...though, not "the" reason why he has so many critics.

I think NFL types get pissed off because of the amount of attention Tim Tebow receives. They look at him and they go, this guy hasn't done anything in the NFL and the whole world is talking about him. He has commericals talking about how great he is, a short film about his draft story, he wrote a flippin biography already...and it's a best seller!

That eats up guys with small minds like Boomer and Hoge. Makes them ugly. Has them look for anything to rip the guy about.

It's really too bad, that there aren't more announcers that can't see through that ugliness!

And what about those that have praised him as much as criticized him? Like Pat Kirwin, Mike Mayock, Chris Collinsworth, John Elway and so forth?

While it does seem that he's over criticized as a person, sometimes you need to remember that he is a very popular figure and was so long before he was drafted by the Broncos, and just as controversial...he has more to prove then any other first round quarterback because he is a project quarterback and not only that, but near three-quarters of the NFL has continually said before he was even drafted that he would likely never be an NFL caliber quarterback.

[sneakers]

I have worked with people who hate him because he is Christian.

[Lancane]

I have worked with people who hate him because he is Christian.

And I bet most of them are Christian themselves are they not?

While there is a rise in non-Christian religions or belief systems, Luciferianism, Wiccan, Satanism, Scientology, Atheism and so on, a good portion are and remain members of a Christian based faiths. So I really don't see how someone can knock him because he's open with his faith, when that is something that is not only his constitutional right, but also one of the base foundation of America's creation as a nation! I wouldn't give a damn if he was a member of the Church of Satan...if you're going to be critical at least let it be for reasons to actually criticize him for, or that is at least my opinion on the subject.

[Canmore]

And I bet most of them are Christian themselves are they not?

While there is a rise in non-Christian religions or belief systems, Luciferianism, Wiccan, Satanism, Scientology, Atheism and so on, a good portion are and remain members of a Christian based faiths. So I really don't see how someone can knock him because he's open with his faith, when that is something that is not only his constitutional right, but also one of the base foundation of America's creation as a nation! I wouldn't give a damn if he was a member of the Church of Satan...if you're going to be critical at least let it be for reasons to actually criticize him for, or that is at least my opinion on the subject.

Agreed. Let's talk about his performance. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen anytime this season.

[dogfish]

critics of critics of tebow's critics are the real assclowns, though-- friggin' nobody likes those tools. . . .

[Dirk]

Funny how this mornings headlines say nothing about Tebow...or how Quinn was 3rd.

There is definately bias against him for whatever reason.

[Canmore]

Funny how this mornings headlines say nothing about Tebow...or how Quinn was 3rd.

There is definately bias against him for whatever reason.

Tebow is a very polarizing figure and his critics seem to have the upper hand right now. Not surprised that All is Quiet on the Western Front. After all, Tebow took the Broncos to the game winning field goal in the last 1:01. Doesn't quite fit with "FAILURE".

[JaxBroncoGirl]

I hope so.

I can live with Orton playing this year so as long as we dont go drafting yet another unproven QB in the first next year. Like you, i want to see Tebow get his shot. Get his shot with the starters and all. I have faith in Elway and Fox that they will do the right thing here.

Funny thing I saw last night. Veteran QB's looking like sh$$t. I could not watch the Broncos so I had to watch Jacksonville vs Buffalo.

Veteran QB Gerrard looked like Tebow in high school, so I really do not care what the so called experts say. Gerrard had a decent QB rating but just cannot get it in to the in zone, sound familiar?

Can the so called experts break it down on another position? Tim did ok last night not great but did ok. I told you Tebow would look ugly but he will win a game.

[Canmore]

Funny thing I saw last night. Veteran QB's looking like sh$$t. I could not watch the Broncos so I had to watch Jacksonville vs Buffalo.

Veteran QB Gerrard looked like Tebow in high school, so I really do not care what the so called experts say. Gerrard had a decent QB rating but just cannot get it in to the in zone, sound familiar?

Can the so called experts break it down on another position? Tim did ok last night not great but did ok. I told you Tebow would look ugly but he will win a game.

He won the game in the last 1:01. That's ok in my book.

[Elevation inc]

Critics of Tebow's critics have it wrong

By Rick Reilly
ESPN.com

Randy Cross doesn't know me. Wouldn't know me if I stuck my thumb in his chili. So why did he just accuse me of being anti-Christian??

Two weeks ago, I wrote that Tim Tebow is not cutting it in the NFL. According to sources I quoted within the Denver Broncos, he is not within a plastic spork of cutting it. Doesn't mean he won't someday. It's just that right now, the thousands of guys wearing his jersey in the stands have as good a chance of starting as he does.


http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/6898262/critics-tebow-critics-wrong



lol this is a stupid hack article as well....lets break it down shall we....tebows critics of his critics could care less about the religion thing to be honest that a minority complaint. the complaints come when guys like hodge a former Rb demeans tebow at every shot or boomer comes in and jumps the bandwagon or guys like that yahoo writer find a chef for a source.

its hilarious that they say tebow isnt cutting it in the nfl....he did fine in 3 spots starts raw of the bench last year for a rookie, and this year people forget he is in a different system....with much fewere shotgun looks and a ton of under center looks. i have no doubt that if josh MCd ran this offense tebow wouldnt have been selected....tebow is raw has good plays and bad plays and yes quite frankly is a work in progress

however is that really a suprise???? 2 different systems for a qb in 2 years, with 2 very different coaches. I have no doubt the org loves tebows potential and will see what happens. if tebow learns to diagnose reads better from under center and fixes his drops he will be just fine in the NFL....he was taken 25th overall how long did rodgers sit in GB????? yeah thats right sometimes it isnt a bad thing to groom a rookie Qb under a vet....

the heavy critics are clowns just as much as the tebowners.....find a line in the middle and thats about whats really going on.....i saw tebow make throws last night his crtics said he couldnt do. I saw him make some mistakes but also focus on leading us down for a winning field goal.....guess that means he cant play at any stage in the NFL huh????

the hacks are a joke and its tiring and neverending and just plain f'in retarded and makes me want to hurt someone.....just saying:tsk:

[Northman]

Tebow is a very polarizing figure and his critics seem to have the upper hand right now. Not surprised that All is Quiet on the Western Front. After all, Tebow took the Broncos to the game winning field goal in the last 1:01. Doesn't quite fit with "FAILURE".

Indeed.

Last week when we were all discussing this and i was chatting with my wife about it i started to think about what it was that was so polarizing about Tebow. And my only conclusion is that while the kid does have some mechanic problems for the most part he is squeeky clean as a human being. There is no dirt on him like a Pac Man Jones or Perrish Cox.

The media loves dirt and tragedy above all else. The feel good stories or hero stories just dont seem to garner the attention as the trainwrecks and bad boy image of some players. So i think to some extent the media goes out of their way to try and trash Tebow more harshly than they would another young player because he has nothing for them to report about other than the obvious.

But the more ane more Tebow improves on and the more and more he stays clean as far as his character the less they will have to criticize him on.

[Elevation inc]

I hope so.

I can live with Orton playing this year so as long as we dont go drafting yet another unproven QB in the first next year. Like you, i want to see Tebow get his shot. Get his shot with the starters and all. I have faith in Elway and Fox that they will do the right thing here.

good post....I want tebow to get his shot as well, but i want them to groom him under center first Im not blind to the fact he is in a new system running 90% from under center as oppose to 90% shotgun last year. its a big chnage for a Qb working on mechanics as it is. Herm edwards said something on espn the other day that tebow missed essentially over 1500 snaps he could have used practicing under center directly....I have no doubt that would have helped. truth is the lockout hurt him...it just did....

I dont like kyle never have, but I also can live with him this year becasue i now understand the situation with tebow and the fact that while terminology and his OC are the same we run shotgun looks not even close to what we ran last year, we are a under center offense and thats something that everyone knew he would need time with coming out of college. It was a given that a shotgun system would be his best shot at being a instant starter which we had last year....now new system its gonna take some time for him to adjust.

[Ravage!!!]

although a new first draft QB may be "unproven," he most likely will not start out in a hole as deep as Tebow has.

If/when we use a first round draft pick on a QB next year, then it will come down to Tebow beating out the rookie. If he can't do that, then it says everything. If he does, then lets hope he can do it for more than one year. Meaning, if we draft a stud QB in the first round, and by their second year they are playing better.... a good draft. Even if the rookie isn't playing better, its the SMART move to make considering our situation.

No team is a top contender without a top QB. If you are at the bottom of the NFL (and we are) then you can't invest too much in the attempt to find that top guy. Its, by FAR, the biggest investment that makes the most radical change in a team.

I believe that its already a given that this team looks HEAVILY into taking a QB in the first round, simply because there is no loss in making that move.

[Northman]

Which means that if a good portion of the fans want Denver to draft a QB it wont happen. lol

[Slick]

The problem lies in declaring the kid a bust already. Even the bronco fan, who are not gator fan bois , got defensive.

There should be no criticism of anyone saying he isn't ready, but there's a difference in saying he isn't ready and he never will be ready. How anyone can say he should just switch to FB or TE after his small sample size and limited time with NFL coaching is puzzling to me. Do people really expect him to be siting in the pocket and throwing darts all over the field already??



For me personally anyway, I want him to succeed. I felt like I needed to stand up for the kid when it seems like he was being labeled a bust too soon. We're better off as a team if this kid succeeds and we can focus drafting other areas of need.

I'm pretty much over it now. We all sound like broken records at this point.

Edit: For me, religion has nothing to do with it. For others, it certainly might/does.

Go Broncos!!!

[Elevation inc]

although a new first draft QB may be "unproven," he most likely will not start out in a hole as deep as Tebow has.

If/when we use a first round draft pick on a QB next year, then it will come down to Tebow beating out the rookie. If he can't do that, then it says everything. If he does, then lets hope he can do it for more than one year. Meaning, if we draft a stud QB in the first round, and by their second year they are playing better.... a good draft. Even if the rookie isn't playing better, its the SMART move to make considering our situation.

No team is a top contender without a top QB. If you are at the bottom of the NFL (and we are) then you can't invest too much in the attempt to find that top guy. Its, by FAR, the biggest investment that makes the most radical change in a team.

I believe that its already a given that this team looks HEAVILY into taking a QB in the first round, simply because there is no loss in making that move.

this team isnt going to be bad enough this year for a top 10 pick which means luck and landry jones are out for top qb prospects a guy like barkley in mid 1st rd or nick foles in rd 2 are options but i would wager that tebow will be the guy next year, and we will draft a rd2-rd3 Qb to push him hard and bring in a vet just in case for cheap....lets give tebow a little more than 4 weeks in a system foreign to him before we chop him down.....

[Ravage!!!]

I don't have a problem with people sharing their opinion that Tebow will NEVER be an NFL QB. We, on this board, say the SAME thing about players that come out of college, each and EVERY year. We don't HESITATE in saying "That guy sucks and will NEVER be more than a wanna be in the NFL." Its like second nature in all of fan bases around the nation. Has NOTHING to do with that guy's religion, but his play.

No different with Tebow. THere is nothing.. NOTHING.. wrong with people sharing the opinion that Tebow wilL NEVER make a starting NFL QB. If its what they believe, its what they believe.

Cam Newton will NEVER be a good NFL QB. T Here, I've said it, and I have NO IDEA what his religion is.

[Ravage!!!]

this team isnt going to be bad enough this year for a top 10 pick which means luck and landry jones are out for top qb prospects a guy like barkley in mid 1st rd or nick foles in rd 2 are options but i would wager that tebow will be the guy next year, and we will draft a rd2-rd3 Qb to push him hard and bring in a vet just in case for cheap....lets give tebow a little more than 4 weeks in a system foreign to him before we chop him down.....

I disagree. I think we will have a top 10 pick, and think we'll use it on a QB.

[Northman]

I disagree. I think we will have a top 10 pick, and think we'll use it on a QB.

Even if we finish in the top 10 i dont think we will waste it on a QB. And even if we do it wont be on Luck or Barkley. We just wont be that bad, there are too many teams who will be worse than us.

[Elevation inc]

I disagree. I think we will have a top 10 pick, and think we'll use it on a QB.

agree to disagree then i think this team is good for 8-9 wins this year

[Ravage!!!]

agree to disagree then i think this team is good for 8-9 wins this year

well... then we definitely disagree :beer:

[Slick]

I don't have a problem with people sharing their opinion that Tebow will NEVER be an NFL QB. We, on this board, say the SAME thing about players that come out of college, each and EVERY year. We don't HESITATE in saying "That guy sucks and will NEVER be more than a wanna be in the NFL." Its like second nature in all of fan bases around the nation. Has NOTHING to do with that guy's religion, but his play.

No different with Tebow. THere is nothing.. NOTHING.. wrong with people sharing the opinion that Tebow wilL NEVER make a starting NFL QB. If its what they believe, its what they believe.

Cam Newton will NEVER be a good NFL QB. T Here, I've said it, and I have NO IDEA what his religion is.

Agreed Ravage, however there will be people and posters who will question that opinion.

...and I do think it has been different with Tebow. Might not be right or fair but it is.

People said it about Ayers, said it about Moreno but the average Bronco fan didn't feel the need to defend those players with so much gusto. With Tebow it absolutely has been different.

[tomjonesrocks]

Man I hate the topic of religion. Just has to permeate into everything.

Can we please just leave it out of football?

Sheesh.

[BroncoWave]

Funny how this mornings headlines say nothing about Tebow...or how Quinn was 3rd.

There is definately bias against him for whatever reason.

So true. Just more proof of the bias ESPN has against Tebow. He comes in as QB2, has a nice game, and leads the game winning drive. Yet there is no peep of it from ESPN and all they showed was his fumble in the highlights. If he throws a pick to lose the game in that last drive you can bet that highlight leads the show and you have Merril Hodge on there proclaiming his failure some more.

[Nomad]

So true. Just more proof of the bias ESPN has against Tebow. He comes in as QB2, has a nice game, and leads the game winning drive. Yet there is no peep of it from ESPN and all they showed was his fumble in the highlights. If he throws a pick to lose the game in that last drive you can bet that highlight leads the show and you have Merril Hodge on there proclaiming his failure some more.

Yeah, I didn't watch the game much but the only highlights I see of Tebow is the fumble.

[bcbronc]

That eats up guys with small minds like Boomer and Hoge. Makes them ugly. Has them look for anything to rip the guy about.


of course, they aren't fawning over Tebow so they must have small minds and be jealous. Jeebus, dude, stop being so petty.


Indeed.

Last week when we were all discussing this and i was chatting with my wife about it i started to think about what it was that was so polarizing about Tebow. And my only conclusion is that while the kid does have some mechanic problems for the most part he is squeeky clean as a human being. There is no dirt on him like a Pac Man Jones or Perrish Cox.

The media loves dirt and tragedy above all else. The feel good stories or hero stories just dont seem to garner the attention as the trainwrecks and bad boy image of some players. So i think to some extent the media goes out of their way to try and trash Tebow more harshly than they would another young player because he has nothing for them to report about other than the obvious.

But the more ane more Tebow improves on and the more and more he stays clean as far as his character the less they will have to criticize him on.

:laugh::laugh: aww, shit, North, you really believe this?? Too funny! It's just a shame that there's never been even a single good person in the NFL before Tebow...good thing Tim's here now, he might save us all from getting turned into pillars of salt!

You might want to just try watching the kid play one day. Leave your biases towards Orton aside, pretend no one has ever said anything (good or bad) about Tebow before, and just watch him play. It might become pretty obvious, even to you, why the media is critical of Tebow's ON FIELD performance.



People said it about Ayers, said it about Moreno but the average Bronco fan didn't feel the need to defend those players with so much gusto. With Tebow it absolutely has been different.

part of the reason for the difference is it isn't necessarily the average Bronco fan that's doing the defending. There's a lot of people who would rather see the Bronco's lose with Tebow than win with Orton because they're Tebow/Gator fans first and foremost. So when Moreno gets criticized, you don't have all these Georgia fans coming out of the woodwork, or Tenn fans for Ayers, etc.

Of course, when the defenders come in hordes, there's a natural blow back in criticisms, which then begins to rankle actual Bronco fans, who feed the loop and on and on it goes.

As for religion, imo his faith has more to do with his cult following than with his critiques. Despite posters like North missing it, Tebow's play provides plenty to fairly criticize, you don't need to go any further than that if you're looking to throw mud Tebow's way.

But if Tebow didn't have bible verses on his face, and God Bless after interviews, and be so open with his Evangelical cult beliefs, would he have the following he has? Of course some Gator fans would still worship him, but he wouldn't have the top selling jersey, best-selling biography, etc without his fans that follow him first and foremost BECAUSE of his specific religious beliefs. And without making this a P&R thread, many who share that specific religious belief are always looking for a reason to cry persecution, and so when they see one of their own being "persecuted" because he can't read a defense or throw from the pocket, they can't help but crusade.

[Watchthemiddle]

Evangelical cult beliefs,.

Un-called for jab :tsk:. Catagorize however you want, but if you don't like it or believe in it keep your trap shut...especially if you want to keep this to a Tebow FOOTBALL player critic.

[Lancane]

Un-called for jab :tsk:. Catagorize however you want, but if you don't like it or believe in it keep your trap shut...especially if you want to keep this to a Tebow FOOTBALL player critic.

Cult [kuhlt]
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

WTM, calling something an 'evangelical cult' is not slandering, but the use of proper English, any religion is by definition a 'Cult' no matter it's base. People just tend to feel the word is slanderous because it's often used to describe particular groups that are less-then-respectable by journalists. We also have to recognize the fact that Tebow has developed himself a cult following, just as cult movies do and that much of that is based off more then less what would be shared beliefs.

[Tned]

and be so open with his Evangelical cult beliefs,

We don't normally allow ANY religion discussion outside of the opt-in politics forum. However, due to the topic of the article and it being a valid discussion point as to whether it is a factor in the criticism (and love) of Tebow, this thread hasn't been moved to the religion forum.

However, if posts like this keep straying from the topic in general, and turn into attacks on religious behavior a poster doesn't like, I will suggest to the mods that it gets moved.

This was out of line in this thread.

[Tned]

Cult [kuhlt]
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

WTM, calling something an 'evangelical cult' is not slandering, but the use of proper English, any religion is by definition a 'Cult' no matter it's base. People just tend to feel the word is slanderous because it's often used to describe particular groups that are less-then-respectable by journalists. We also have to recognize the fact that Tebow has developed himself a cult following, just as cult movies do and that much of that is based off more then less what would be shared beliefs.

WTM is correct in the sense that that type of discussion/debate is NOT allowed outside of the religion forum.

This thread has been borderline since it was started, but is now in danger of needing to be moved to the religion forum.

[Lancane]

WTM is correct in the sense that that type of discussion/debate is NOT allowed outside of the religion forum.

This thread has been borderline since it was started, but is now in danger of needing to be moved to the religion forum.

That makes sense, I thought maybe he was insulted by the term cult though, so I was trying to explain that he shouldn't let it get to him because what it meant.

Sadly Tned, I think the whole religious factor will be continuously be brought up in threads regarding Tebow because so many critics have used what could be considered snide remarks regarding the whole religious issue. (That's all I'll say about that though)

[Tned]

That makes sense, I thought maybe he was insulted by the term cult though, so I was trying to explain that he shouldn't let it get to him because what it meant.

Sadly Tned, I think the whole religious factor will be continuously be brought up in threads regarding Tebow because so many critics have used what could be considered snide remarks regarding the whole religious issue. (That's all I'll say about that though)

It will be, and I know the mods have moved a few threads (whether Tebow religion or other 'politically' tilted threads) to one of the P&R forums.

While some may find it interesting, like to debate the subject and make their views on religion or politics known, it's been made clear to us that the community at large doesn't want to see politics or religion in the main forums, hence the reason for the opt-in forums.

This, and a few other Tebow threads, have been given FAR more leeway than typically is the case, because the lines between religious discussion and football discussion are a bit blurred with Tebow.

[Dzone]

I usually like Rick Reillys columns but this is probably the worst he has ever written. Reilly crossed the line. He's exagerrating the behavior of most Tebow fans. 99% of the current Tebow criticism has to do with his ON FIELD performance. Reilly took a sentence from Randy Cross and used it to paint most Tebow fans as a bunch of whiners who think Tebow is being persecuted whenever his play is criticized. Shame on. you, Rick Reilly for trying to make this a religious issue. Give me a ******* break.

[vandammage13]

agree to disagree then i think this team is good for 8-9 wins this year

Ahh...gotta love the optimism that preseason action brings.

[Dzone]

Reilly isnt stupid. He knows the best way for sportswriters to get a lot of "clicks" right now is to write a controversial article about Tim Tebow.

[Northman]

We don't normally allow ANY religion discussion outside of the opt-in politics forum. However, due to the topic of the article and it being a valid discussion point as to whether it is a factor in the criticism (and love) of Tebow, this thread hasn't been moved to the religion forum.

However, if posts like this keep straying from the topic in general, and turn into attacks on religious behavior a poster doesn't like, I will suggest to the mods that it gets moved.

This was out of line in this thread.

Get used to it from this cat.

[jhildebrand]

I think Riley has some good points. How is it that anyone that says something critical of Tebow is doing it base on his religion, instead of just treating him like any other high-profile athlete?

I think when they go after the God stuff in their critique of TT they are, whether intentional or not, displaying enough to question it.

I brought this up in the other thread about Boomer bringing the God stuff into it and used Ryan Harris as an example.

In fact, if someone said Ryan Harris was an Allah fearing individual, who had a show on MTV about him in HS, but can't hack it in the NFL, my guess is people would be up in arms about bringing up his Muslim faith.

The best thing for anybody is to base their critique on his play. Same for Orton-it was sad to see people bashing the guy for having a baby.

[Northman]

I think when they go after the God stuff in their critique of TT they are, whether intentional or not, displaying enough to question it.

I brought this up in the other thread about Boomer bringing the God stuff into it and used Ryan Harris as an example.

In fact, if someone said Ryan Harris was an Allah fearing individual, who had a show on MTV about him in HS, but can't hack it in the NFL, my guess is people would be up in arms about bringing up his Muslim faith.

The best thing for anybody is to base their critique on his play. Same for Orton-it was sad to see people bashing the guy for having a baby.

Wow, someone bashed him for having a kid? That is pretty sad.

[MOtorboat]

I think when they go after the God stuff in their critique of TT they are, whether intentional or not, displaying enough to question it.

I brought this up in the other thread about Boomer bringing the God stuff into it and used Ryan Harris as an example.

In fact, if someone said Ryan Harris was an Allah fearing individual, who had a show on MTV about him in HS, but can't hack it in the NFL, my guess is people would be up in arms about bringing up his Muslim faith.

The best thing for anybody is to base their critique on his play. Same for Orton-it was sad to see people bashing the guy for having a baby.

Can someone show me where an analyst, not a poster here, but someone in the media has actually gone after Tebow's faith? I mean actually attacked it. I've seen a few jabs, the headline from Silver's article, but his article wasn't about that. I mean an honest attack on his beliefs.

Reilly wrote this in reply to Randy Cross saying people attack is ability to play football because they don't like his beliefs. That's a non-sequitor to start with, so I'm just curious if I'm missing something out there?

[I Eat Staples]

I just don't understand why he gets critisized more then any other Player it seems like? Makes me just want him to suceed even more. :elefant:

Because he gets so much media attention that everyone comments about him at some point one way or the other. The popular expert opinion is that he can't succeed in the NFL, for obvious reasons that have been stated numerous times but fans choose not to believe.

The real question for me is why he has such a large fanbase. He isn't the first college star to have questions coming into the NFL.

[Northman]

The popular expert opinion is that he can't succeed in the NFL, for obvious reasons that have been stated numerous times but fans choose not to believe.



Well, this is actually false. Based on the 3 REAL games he played last year he is right up there in terms of "succeeding" in the NFL. Does he have some issues to work on? Oh yea, but then again so does every young player in the NFL. Its not like Tebow has been in the league for 6 years and still having the same problems.

[jhildebrand]

Can someone show me where an analyst, not a poster here, but someone in the media has actually gone after Tebow's faith? I mean actually attacked it. I've seen a few jabs, the headline from Silver's article, but his article wasn't about that. I mean an honest attack on his beliefs.

Reilly wrote this in reply to Randy Cross saying people attack is ability to play football because they don't like his beliefs. That's a non-sequitor to start with, so I'm just curious if I'm missing something out there?

Boomer mentioned God. Many others have. Why bring it into the discussion AT ALL? :confused: The safest and easiest way for anybody to critique Tebow is to keep it on the NFL field. Once you go outside of that not only are they showing bias but it is too hard because as of now the guy is squeeky clean as another person termed it here.

[Northman]

Boomer mentioned God. Many others have. Why bring it into the discussion AT ALL? :confused: The safest and easiest way for anybody to critique Tebow is to keep it on the NFL field. Once you go outside of that not only are they showing bias but it is too hard because as of now the guy is squeeky clean as another person termed it here.

I agree.

Football is about the talent that a player possesses. It has nothing to do with religion.

[Nomad]

I thought football was a religion!:D

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Other religious Broncos that I know of - Brian Dawkins, and Brady Quinn. Also Von Miller spoke about religion in a positive manner after being drafted. There was also at least one more of the draftees who did the same - can't remember who. Can't remember who said it on radio not long ago, but the comment was that Quinn is ever bit as religious, or possibly moreso, than Tebow.

IMO, religion should have NOTHING to do when discussing liking or disliking an athlete.

[Tned]

I agree.

Football is about the talent that a player possesses. It has nothing to do with religion.

I don't think religion should enter into the subject, but I've also been very outspoken about not caring about bad off-field stuff as well. I care about how a player performs for the Broncos ON the field, and outside of that, don't care much what they do or believe.

Don't get me wrong, I like when guys dedicate their time to charity, helping the community, etc., but that's just a bonus, as I all I care about is do they help the Broncos win on the field.


Other religious Broncos that I know of - Brian Dawkins, and Brady Quinn. Also Von Miller spoke about religion in a positive manner after being drafted. There was also at least one more of the draftees who did the same - can't remember who. Can't remember who said it on radio not long ago, but the comment was that Quinn is ever bit as religious, or possibly moreso, than Tebow.

IMO, religion should have NOTHING to do when discussing liking or disliking an athlete.

Dawkins and Quinn are constantly Tweeting out Bible versus and other religious stuff. I think in both of their cases, it's the main things they Tweet.

[BroncoNut]

I have worked with people who hate him because he is Christian.

I think that has a lot to do with it. Jesus was Christian (OK, Jewish, but whatever) and he was hated. He was no first round pick though from what I discern.

[MOtorboat]

Boomer mentioned God. Many others have. Why bring it into the discussion AT ALL? :confused: The safest and easiest way for anybody to critique Tebow is to keep it on the NFL field. Once you go outside of that not only are they showing bias but it is too hard because as of now the guy is squeeky clean as another person termed it here.

Was it an attack? I guess I didn't remember him saying anything about beliefs...

Again, Randy Cross said that writers/analysts are attacking Tebow's ability to play football, because those writers don't like his beliefs. And I, personally, have not seen anyone actually attack his religion, so I, don't think Randy Cross is correct in his assumption.

[jhildebrand]

Other religious Broncos that I know of - Brian Dawkins, and Brady Quinn. Also Von Miller spoke about religion in a positive manner after being drafted. There was also at least one more of the draftees who did the same - can't remember who. Can't remember who said it on radio not long ago, but the comment was that Quinn is ever bit as religious, or possibly moreso, than Tebow.

Hamza Abdullah and Ryan Harris are Muslim. People questioned how they would keep up during Ramadan. I found that outside the lines then.



IMO, religion should have NOTHING to do when discussing liking or disliking an athlete.

Or critiquing their play.

[jhildebrand]

Was it an attack? I guess I didn't remember him saying anything about beliefs...

Again, Randy Cross said that writers/analysts are attacking Tebow's ability to play football, because those writers don't like his beliefs. And I, personally, have not seen anyone actually attack his religion, so I, don't think Randy Cross is correct in his assumption.

But why even bother mentioning it unless their is some bias on their part? There is absolutley no reason to bring it up AT ALL yet they do. So obviously there is some motive there-consciously or sub consciously. Nobody is going to come out directly and question him due to his faith or attack it because they know what will come from it. But even mentioning it is walking dangerously close to the fire.

Also, I have heard some begin to speculate that Hoge's motivations are Tebow's faith. Let's not forget Hoge was the center of speculation of being gay and how that was handled in the LR. Who knows....at the end of the day religion and God have nothing to do with it so why even mention it even if it is a simple passing thought?

[Ravage!!!]

But why even bother mentioning it unless their is some bias on their part? There is absolutley no reason to bring it up AT ALL yet they do. So obviously there is some motive there-consciously or sub consciously. Nobody is going to come out directly and question him due to his faith or attack it because they know what will come from it. But even mentioning it is walking dangerously close to the fire.

Also, I have heard some begin to speculate that Hoge's motivations are Tebow's faith. Let's not forget Hoge was the center of speculation of being gay and how that was handled in the LR. Who knows....at the end of the day religion and God have nothing to do with it so why even mention it even if it is a simple passing thought?

For one.. the ATHLETES do bring it into the conversation. So its them that bring it to the forefront.

Two, as Motor just said... I have YET to hear anyone crticize Tebow for his beliefs. Cross said it was the writers/anylists that criciized Tebow for his beliefs.... so who's the one bringing it into the discussion?

From the way I see it, the ones bringing religion into the discussion, are those ACCUSING others that religion has ANYTHING to do with the critiques.

So what does that do? That makes the persong giving critiques REASON to have to defend themselves with the caveat "but his religion has nothing to do with it." Then, after that is made, there are those *ahem* that come back to THAT comment by saying "if religion doesn't have anything to do with it, why was it brought up at all??" Do you see this circle???

People aren't knocking Tebow for his religion, but it's a SURE fire way for some to try and use to STOP the criticisms.

I'll compare it to the "race card" that has been used in the past (and made into a clique joke in everyday society). A person gets criticized, and to take the attention away from the criticism, its thrown back ONTO the person giving the criticism by calling them racists. Now, the criticizer has to defend HIMSELF against the ridiculous accusations that were intended for no other purpose than to steer away from the original discussion.

No different here. Its the "Oh hey, uhmmm.... he' snot a bad passer, YOU are just against his religion!!" scenario. Its as if SOME people don't believe there is anything to criticize OTHER than Tebow's religion.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Here is some of what Esiason said -

From article -


Just because he’s God-fearing,

AND


“What Josh McDaniel saw in him God only knows. Maybe God does know — because the rest of us don’t,” Esiason said.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/24/boomer-esiason-tim-tebow-cant-play-cant-throw/

Could Esiason have left both of these comments out, and still made his point - IMO, yes, he could have. Why did he choose to include them - only he knows that.

[NightTerror218]

For one.. the ATHLETES do bring it into the conversation. So its them that bring it to the forefront.

Two, as Motor just said... I have YET to hear anyone crticize Tebow for his beliefs. Cross said it was the writers/anylists that criciized Tebow for his beliefs.... so who's the one bringing it into the discussion?

From the way I see it, the ones bringing religion into the discussion, are those ACCUSING others that religion has ANYTHING to do with the critiques.

So what does that do? That makes the persong giving critiques REASON to have to defend themselves with the caveat "but his religion has nothing to do with it." Then, after that is made, there are those *ahem* that come back to THAT comment by saying "if religion doesn't have anything to do with it, why was it brought up at all??" Do you see this circle???

People aren't knocking Tebow for his religion, but it's a SURE fire way for some to try and use to STOP the criticisms.

I'll compare it to the "race card" that has been used in the past (and made into a clique joke in everyday society). A person gets criticized, and to take the attention away from the criticism, its thrown back ONTO the person giving the criticism by calling them racists. Now, the criticizer has to defend HIMSELF against the ridiculous accusations that were intended for no other purpose than to steer away from the original discussion.

No different here. Its the "Oh hey, uhmmm.... he' snot a bad passer, YOU are just against his religion!!" scenario. Its as if SOME people don't believe there is anything to criticize OTHER than Tebow's religion.

I know I read 1 bleacher report that stated why people hate him is because of his religious beliefs on his sleeves. It just pushes peoples buttons.

[NightTerror218]

Here is some of what Esiason said -

From article -



AND


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/24/boomer-esiason-tim-tebow-cant-play-cant-throw/

Could Esiason have left both of these comments out, and still made his point - IMO, yes, he could have. Why did he choose to include them - only he knows that.


I think it was suppose to be a dumb tongue-n-cheek joke.....

[Northman]

Here is some of what Esiason said -

From article -



AND


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/24/boomer-esiason-tim-tebow-cant-play-cant-throw/

Could Esiason have left both of these comments out, and still made his point - IMO, yes, he could have. Why did he choose to include them - only he knows that.


Yea, thats a pretty good dig and is pretty classless. Sorry Rav, there is no defending that. :lol:

You want to criticize his game? Ok, thats cool But shit like that needs to be left out.

[Ravage!!!]

Here is some of what Esiason said -

From article -



AND


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/24/boomer-esiason-tim-tebow-cant-play-cant-throw/

Could Esiason have left both of these comments out, and still made his point - IMO, yes, he could have. Why did he choose to include them - only he knows that.

True, you are right.

However..... he could have made those EXACT same comments about any player that he was critiqueing, and NO ONE wouls have thought he was "attacking" their religion.

"only god knows" is a VERY commonly used phrase. His follow up of "maybe god knows, because the rest of us don't" is simply a follow up on his own comments. Meaning "NO ONE" knows why.

I think that for whatever reason, people think commentators should now edit themselves when talking about Tebow so that they don't talk as they normally do. I would bet 1 million dollars that Boomer uses the phrase "only god knows" a TON of times. But because it was used in a sentence that contains Tebow.....its now considered blasphamy or its attacking Tim's religion.

[Ravage!!!]

Yea, thats a pretty good dig and is pretty classless. Sorry Rav, there is no defending that. :lol:

You want to criticize his game? Ok, thats cool But shit like that needs to be left out.

He did NOT attack the religion, north. We have come to the point that we are actually reading into comments to put what we WANT into them, simply because it "fits" into the predetermined mold.

[Ravage!!!]

I know I read 1 bleacher report that stated why people hate him is because of his religious beliefs on his sleeves. It just pushes peoples buttons.

I think I skimmed that, but that again wasn't criticizing Tim on his religion, but accusing people of disliking him BECAUSE of it.... just as Randy Cross did.

[Northman]

He did NOT attack the religion, north. We have come to the point that we are actually reading into comments to put what we WANT into them, simply because it "fits" into the predetermined mold.

No, he isnt attacking the religion. He is criticizing a player BECAUSE of his religion and taking shots at him. Hell, Boomer is known to take pot shots at everyone including Marino but at least he keeps it to the PLAY and not the religion. You just choose to ignore it because you cant accept that a media type actually stepped over the line.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

No, he isnt attacking the religion. He is criticizing a player BECAUSE of his religion and taking shots at him. Hell, Boomer is known to take pot shots at everyone including Marino but at least he keeps it to the PLAY and not the religion. You just choose to ignore it because you cant accept that a media type actually stepped over the line.

I agree - his comment "just because he's God-fearing, can ONLY be pointed at religion, and again, for the tone of the rest of his article, there was NO reason for him to include that. He could have said things like - "Tebow believes he can be an NFL QB", and then expanded on that. Many different things he could have said.

[Dzone]

Also, I have heard some begin to speculate that Hoge's motivations are Tebow's faith. Let's not forget Hoge was the center of speculation of being gay and how that was handled in the LR.
Thats probably the source of Hoges hatred for Tebow. He knows Tebow is opposed to same sex marriage and Hoge is wanting to marry some dude:tsk:

[NightTerror218]

I think I skimmed that, but that again wasn't criticizing Tim on his religion, but accusing people of disliking him BECAUSE of it.... just as Randy Cross did.

I dislike of a person will lead to a person being more critical of them. The dislike will make you judge more harshly....it is a fact. Everyone does it, human nature.

[lgenf]

Funny thing about all these comments in the preseason be it religous toned or not - if you just listened to everything that was said about T2 in this preseason and then T2 went out on the field in another jersey with some other name on the back, would you think they were the same person?

criticism of T2 is fair and AOK with most fans, but outright claiming a failure of epic proportions may be a little (ok ALOT) overstepping it at this point.

Everyone agress, he needs work, but he can get the job done, maybe not as well as Orton at this point, but to say he has no chance of ever being a NFL QB (which is what some in the media have said) and watching him do just that (BE AN NFL QB) and win a game, and lose a game, etc etc is just that BEING AN NFL QB

NO QB in the history of the NFL has as much written or talked about them - crap Leaf, Marinovich or Mirer, those guys failed.

But T2 hasn't looked like the guy the media has described, and ESPN has gone out of their way to show T2 failure highlights, rather than some of the promissing plays he has had during this same preseason.

It's not his fault McD "reached" and took T2 where he did, so if EVERYONE is in agreement that T2 was not worthy of the "first round" then why is the media still talking like he was? NO ONE said he was NFL Ready out of that Gators College system, but it seems the media forgets all that was said about him previously.

I know he will succeed, it may take a year, two or three, it may be later this year, but the "professional media" that criticize T2 and say the things they do is just rediculous, and if the day ever comes to make Hodge eat his words it will be all too sweet to me.

[I Eat Staples]

Well, this is actually false. Based on the 3 REAL games he played last year he is right up there in terms of "succeeding" in the NFL. Does he have some issues to work on? Oh yea, but then again so does every young player in the NFL. Its not like Tebow has been in the league for 6 years and still having the same problems.

Well even with those 3 games, the majority of "experts" still don't think he'll succeed.


Other religious Broncos that I know of - Brian Dawkins, and Brady Quinn. Also Von Miller spoke about religion in a positive manner after being drafted. There was also at least one more of the draftees who did the same - can't remember who. Can't remember who said it on radio not long ago, but the comment was that Quinn is ever bit as religious, or possibly moreso, than Tebow.

IMO, religion should have NOTHING to do when discussing liking or disliking an athlete.

Yeah I've always known Dawkins is a very devoted Christian, and I've heard those things about Quinn as well. Dawkins has always been popular and respected, and when Quinn gets criticized for his poor play no one plays the religion card. I think the Tebow fans/supporters are mistaken to believe Tebow's faith is the cause for the criticism.

I don't care what an athlete believes in, and it certainly doesn't affect their play on the field, but I don't think you should have to walk on egg shells and avoid mentioning it in any discussion either. This nation has become way too sensitive about these things. I bet Tebow himself doesn't even care about Boomer's comments.

[Ravage!!!]

You just choose to ignore it because you cant accept that a media type actually stepped over the line.

:lol: :lol:

Yeah... THATS it!! :lol:

[MOtorboat]

Funny thing about all these comments in the preseason be it religous toned or not - if you just listened to everything that was said about T2 in this preseason and then T2 went out on the field in another jersey with some other name on the back, would you think they were the same person?

criticism of T2 is fair and AOK with most fans, but outright claiming a failure of epic proportions may be a little (ok ALOT) overstepping it at this point.

Everyone agress, he needs work, but he can get the job done, maybe not as well as Orton at this point, but to say he has no chance of ever being a NFL QB (which is what some in the media have said) and watching him do just that (BE AN NFL QB) and win a game, and lose a game, etc etc is just that BEING AN NFL QB

NO QB in the history of the NFL has as much written or talked about them - crap Leaf, Marinovich or Mirer, those guys failed.

But T2 hasn't looked like the guy the media has described, and ESPN has gone out of their way to show T2 failure highlights, rather than some of the promissing plays he has had during this same preseason.

It's not his fault McD "reached" and took T2 where he did, so if EVERYONE is in agreement that T2 was not worthy of the "first round" then why is the media still talking like he was? NO ONE said he was NFL Ready out of that Gators College system, but it seems the media forgets all that was said about him previously.

I know he will succeed, it may take a year, two or three, it may be later this year, but the "professional media" that criticize T2 and say the things they do is just rediculous, and if the day ever comes to make Hodge eat his words it will be all too sweet to me.

Three things:

1.) Social Media has changed how much players are talked about, it's like inflation. Marinovich, Mirer and Leaf were talked about a lot too, but their careers didn't exist in this crazy media frenzy. Had any of those three played now, they'd be just as scrutinized.

2.) He is and was a first round draft pick. You don't get re-dos on that. I think fans put too much of an emphasis on where players are drafter, personally, but that means he's always going to be criticized for it. I would put the mistake on McDaniels' shoulder's not Tebow's, but Tebow is always going to looked at as a first round pick because he was.

3.) You "know" he is going to be good. That's the same exact statement Hoge made.

[Northman]

Well even with those 3 games, the majority of "experts" still don't think he'll succeed.




Yea, they have never been wrong. :lol:

Like i said, his play in those 3 games are right up there with the best of them. Cant deny what is right in front of their faces. :whoknows:

[Slick]

Who are the majority of experts, Staples? Not trying to be an ass, just curious.

Not ready and still raw i've heard alot. Only one guy i know of is saying, never.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[I Eat Staples]

Who are the majority of experts, Staples? Not trying to be an ass, just curious.

Not ready and still raw i've heard alot. Only one guy i know of is saying, never.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Well there's a difference between thinking he won't succeed, and coming right out and saying he will NEVER succeed. Some people, say Hodge or Kiper, are more forceful and unyielding with their opinion. But almost every scout and expert points out the same things about his accuracy, footwork, throwing motion, playing under center, etc.

[NightTerror218]

Well there's a difference between thinking he won't succeed, and coming right out and saying he will NEVER succeed. Some people, say Hodge or Kiper, are more forceful and unyielding with their opinion. But almost every scout and expert points out the same things about his accuracy, footwork, throwing motion, playing under center, etc.

Except when the throws 6 for 7 or makes some nice passes then they say it is lucky. Or it is a pass that every QB makes everyday, like is 40+ yr throw to Willis in the first preseason game.

And Hoge came out and said he wont succeed.

[Lancane]

Yea, they have never been wrong. :lol:

Like i said, his play in those 3 games are right up there with the best of them. Cant deny what is right in front of their faces. :whoknows:

It's also comparable to one of the worst of them North, I am not trying to put you on the spot, but three lousy games means squat bro, I think you'd even agree with that. Let's look at Tim vs Tim.

Tim Couch and Tim Tebow in their first three games

Tim Couch

38 completions out of 84 attempts, 458 yards passing, 3 touchdowns and 1 interception

Tim Tebow

40 completions out of 81 attempts, 651 yards passing, 4 touchdowns and 3 interceptions

I wouldn't say there is a great difference give that Couch turned the ball over less with far inferior receiver talent, he had no one of Lloyd's caliber nor that of Royal's, he had Johnson who is comparable to Gaffney I suppose. One difference is that Couch in those three games rushed for little over 100 yards, whereas Tebow doubled that number. So yardage goes to Tebow, who relatively had a better supporting cast.

Does that mean that Tebow is the next Couch? Not even...but it does show that stats are meaningless, so I wouldn't count on them! ;)

[NightTerror218]

It's also comparable to one of the worst of them North, I am not trying to put you on the spot, but three lousy games means squat bro, I think you'd even agree with that. Let's look at Tim vs Tim.

Tim Couch and Tim Tebow in their first three games

Tim Couch

38 completions out of 84 attempts, 458 yards passing, 3 touchdowns and 1 interception

Tim Tebow

40 completions out of 81 attempts, 651 yards passing, 4 touchdowns and 3 interceptions

I wouldn't say there is a great difference give that Couch turned the ball over less with far inferior receiver talent, he had no one of Lloyd's caliber nor that of Royal's, he had Johnson who is comparable to Gaffney I suppose. One difference is that Couch in those three games rushed for little over 100 yards, whereas Tebow doubled that number. So yardage goes to Tebow, who relatively had a better supporting cast.

Does that mean that Tebow is the next Couch? Not even...but it does show that stats are meaningless, so I wouldn't count on them! ;)

Now compare Tim to John, Joe, Dan or some other big QBs he had good stats for a rookie...you can compare Tim to anyone and he will look good, or bad. But he looked promising IMO, little rough.

[I Eat Staples]

Yea, they have never been wrong. :lol:

Like i said, his play in those 3 games are right up there with the best of them. Cant deny what is right in front of their faces. :whoknows:

They can be wrong, but only when I disagree with them. :D

Nah but seriously, his stats in those games were good, but if stats don't matter for Orton then they shouldn't matter for Tebow. Watching those games, he still had the same flaws and issues that he had coming in, and he still has them now.


Except when the throws 6 for 7 or makes some nice passes then they say it is lucky. Or it is a pass that every QB makes everyday, like is 40+ yr throw to Willis in the first preseason game.

And Hoge came out and said he wont succeed.

Yeah, I think Hoge was the one Slick was referring to when he said only one person said he'd NEVER succeed.

[NightTerror218]

They can be wrong, but only when I disagree with them. :D

Nah but seriously, his stats in those games were good, but if stats don't matter for Orton then they shouldn't matter for Tebow. Watching those games, he still had the same flaws and issues that he had coming in, and he still has them now.



Yeah, I think Hoge was the one Slick was referring to when he said only one person said he'd NEVER succeed.

There have been many actually. Tim referred to 1 who said he would never play a down in the NFL because he is that bad. Tim just said he proved that guy wrong because he started 3 games. Hoge was just 1 this year, he just stands out the most. Cause he ass keeps flapping in the wind with what he says.

Edit: Garbage stats should be cut out also, so Orton's would be lower.

[Lancane]

Now compare Tim to John, Joe, Dan or some other big QBs he had good stats for a rookie...you can compare Tim to anyone and he will look good, or bad. But he looked promising IMO, little rough.

The point I was making Phi is that while he had good and bad moments that it doesn't prove or disprove anything, especially statistically.

Chad Henne his first three games was 52 of 84, had 567 yards passing, had 3 touchdowns and 2 interceptions, he also went 2-1 in his first three full games.

Let's face it, he's barely holding on to the backup position, some believe that he is bound to be third on the depth chart because that is how far behind the others he seems to be to them. I've seen a lot of flaws in his game, people just don't wish to acknowledge just how far he is from being capable, but stats will not prove him the better, we've seen similar stats before from those who've turned awful, look at Matt Leinart in his first three starts he passed for 688 yards, had a 6 to 3 touchdown to interception ratio - he also completed 59 passes out of 109 attempts.

Some of the worst quarterbacks have been those that looked the most promising, and some of the best have looked far worse to begin with - Joe Montana looked awful in the beginning, Elway had some issues as well! I just don't see how we can base anything off what we've seen thus far, especially when the professionals see far more then us and a fair number agree that he isn't ready and may never be.

[Npba900]

I just don't understand why he gets critisized more then any other Player it seems like? Makes me just want him to suceed even more. :elefant:

I just hope that we don't give up on him. I don't care if he sits for 4 years, I just want him to have a chance with us. Because I know I'd be pissed if we let him go and he goes somewhere else and becomes a legit or great QB. I'd rather start him for a season or 2 and see that he doesn't have it, rather then let him go elsewhere.

But time will tell. I've been a Broncos fan before and will be one after Tebow, so doesn't matter too much. Just wanna win. :elefant:

My only question is why should Tebow be given 4 years to see whether he's the real deal? Why should Fox stake his HC job on whether Tebow is ready to become an NFL QB?

Remember Fox didn't draft Tebow Number 1 and therefore has no reason to ensure Tebow makes it or not.

At this stage in the QB debate it isn't clear Tebow could even beat out one of the top 5 QB's coming out of the 2012 draft, let alone Quinn and Tebow.

[bcbronc]

We don't normally allow ANY religion discussion outside of the opt-in politics forum. However, due to the topic of the article and it being a valid discussion point as to whether it is a factor in the criticism (and love) of Tebow, this thread hasn't been moved to the religion forum.

However, if posts like this keep straying from the topic in general, and turn into attacks on religious behavior a poster doesn't like, I will suggest to the mods that it gets moved.

This was out of line in this thread.

Whatever Tned. I didn't start the thread nor was I the first to reply. You either let the thread stay or you don't, but to say my post was more out of line than any other is BS. My point is valid, plain and simple. If the use of the word "cult" instead of "religion" offends, well not my problem some peeps have a weaker grasp on the English language than others.

:coffee:

And to get back on topic, as I said earlier people are playing the religion card so they can steer the conversation away from Tebow's on-field performance. As Reilly said, Tebow has enough work to do improving his game so he can be an NFL QB without his cult following forcing him to bear their cross.

[Tned]

Whatever Tned. I didn't start the thread nor was I the first to reply. You either let the thread stay or you don't, but to say my post was more out of line than any other is BS. My point is valid, plain and simple. If the use of the word "cult" instead of "religion" offends, well not my problem some peeps have a weaker grasp on the English language than others.

:coffee:

And to get back on topic, as I said earlier people are playing the religion card so they can steer the conversation away from Tebow's on-field performance. As Reilly said, Tebow has enough work to do improving his game so he can be an NFL QB without his cult following forcing him to bear their cross.

No reasonable person uses the word "cult" interchangeably with "religion" unless they are trying to make a point about religion. Feel free to debate the cult nature religions in the religion forum -- not here.

[MOtorboat]

More lies and bias from the media:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18781608


Broncos' Brady Quinn works as No. 2 QB, but Tim Tebow getting more reps

By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

More than in any workout during training camp and preseason, it was clear that veteran quarterback Brady Quinn was working exclusively with the No. 2 offense at the Broncos' workout Monday.

What isn't clear is whether being the No. 2 quarterback Monday was a good thing. Although Kyle Orton was the No. 1 quarterback and Quinn was No. 2, the quarterbacks who took most of the snaps Monday were Tim Tebow​ and Adam Weber​.

[NightTerror218]

More lies and bias from the media:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18781608

I would like to see the proof and hear Fox say it, like he did saying Orton wold start week 1.

[Northman]

It's also comparable to one of the worst of them North, I am not trying to put you on the spot, but three lousy games means squat bro, I think you'd even agree with that.

Of course i agree with that. That is why ive been saying all along that we need to see more from him. Im trying to make you guys understand that 3 games is not enough to determine if he is going to be a NFL QB. Drafting one next year without knowing for sure is moronic on a grand scale. lol

[Northman]

Now compare Tim to John, Joe, Dan or some other big QBs he had good stats for a rookie...you can compare Tim to anyone and he will look good, or bad. But he looked promising IMO, little rough.

EXACTLY. At least somebody gets it. :lol:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I would like to see the proof and hear Fox say it, like he did saying Orton wold start week 1.

I read the article, and unless I missed it, all Klis stated was that Quinn was exclusively working with the No. 2 offense Monday.

[Slick]

Now you did it mo

Tempers are going to flare.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[NightTerror218]

I read the article, and unless I missed it, all Klis stated was that Quinn was exclusively working with the No. 2 offense Monday.

Exactly...nothing from the coach to say he is #2....Article Title is misleading and now all media is jumping all over it....Twitter was going nuts over it.

[MOtorboat]

Exactly...nothing from the coach to say he is #2....Article Title is misleading and now all media is jumping all over it....Twitter was going nuts over it.

How is it misleading? Quinn got almost all of the second-team snaps, ergo..

The last two coaches this team had lied like crazy, and now we have to have Fox state he's the second quarterback for it to be true?

[NightTerror218]

How is it misleading? Quinn got almost all of the second-team snaps, ergo..

The last two coaches this team had lied like crazy, and now we have to have Fox state he's the second quarterback for it to be true?

So what if he got reps? Tebow has done the same thing. They have split and they have switched off. So what?? We still have no depth chart of who is where and until its release.....the media is going to have fun with it.

[MOtorboat]

So what if he got reps? Tebow has done the same thing. They have split and they have switched off. So what?? We still have no depth chart of who is where and until its release.....the media is going to have fun with it.

No. The media isn't "having fun with it," they are reporting what is happening so us rabid Broncos fans know what's happening at practices that are closed to the public.

The Broncos could be like the Chiefs and close half their practices to even the media, and keep everyone in the dark. The Broncos are open, and this is the consequences of making all of your practices open to the media. They report on what's happening.

[Northman]

No. The media isn't "having fun with it," they are reporting what is happening so us rabid Broncos fans know what's happening at practices that are closed to the public.

The Broncos could be like the Chiefs and close half their practices to even the media, and keep everyone in the dark. The Broncos are open, and this is the consequences of making all of your practices open to the media. They report on what's happening.

I guess im lost in this discussion. So what part of that is lies MO? Serious question.

[MOtorboat]

I guess im lost in this discussion. So what part of that is lies MO? Serious question.

Sorry, I forgot my sarcasm button.

[Lancane]

Of course i agree with that. That is why ive been saying all along that we need to see more from him. Im trying to make you guys understand that 3 games is not enough to determine if he is going to be a NFL QB. Drafting one next year without knowing for sure is moronic on a grand scale. lol

But that's where I am torn...while I agree that it takes more then three games to evaluate an athlete in any sport, I also realize that coaches see these kids day in and day out in practice - if Tebow was even moderately good then why is he so questionable during practice? Why doesn't his 'wow' factor impress them enough to say let's see what he can do? But no, instead they're going with one of the most detested quarterbacks that I can remember. While critics are continually bashing Tebow, stating that he doesn't have the skills to succeed and what I see in regards to his play mirrors that assessment, not to mention gives fuel to those critical of him kindling for their fires.

I don't think drafting a quarterback next year is idiotic, I think it's far more intelligent then drafting any defensive players, and I'll explain that. We know Quinn is likely gone, he wants to compete and Denver might be to rough and fickle for him to even want to try here. Orton is likewise gone, unless he has a stellar year, which I doubt and I don't think they see him as the future anyways, we're hearing too many remarks from Elway talking about a certain type of quarterbacks, those we'd consider franchise capable. So say we forgo drafting a quarterback and since we only Webber and Tebow under contract then we add a veteran, say maybe Kyle Boller or Rex Grossman, what if Tebow can not even beat them out? Are you gonna be excited to see quarterbacks that make Orton look like an All-Pro under center? At least if we drafted a first round quarterback then Tebow has a far better chance to at least start for one year and prove his worth, and if he doesn't win the starting position and the rookie is better or for that matter the real deal, wouldn't you say that is better that we didn't waste a season hoping that he Tim turned out?

Another aspect of the argument is that Tebow has already received the largest guaranteed portion of his contract, adding another top quarterback prospect via the draft will not hurt the Broncos fiscally. So why not have more talent in a position of concern? Isn't it better to have more talent rather then risking having none because people wanted to see if Tebow was the real deal? I'm sure plenty of people disagree...but, if you look at it from every angle then drafting a quarterback, especially one of the better prospects is not only a safe choice but makes complete sense.

[nevcraw]

No. The media isn't "having fun with it," they are reporting what is happening so us rabid Broncos fans know what's happening at practices that are closed to the public.
The Broncos could be like the Chiefs and close half their practices to even the media, and keep everyone in the dark. The Broncos are open, and this is the consequences of making all of your practices open to the media. They report on what's happening.

so the media is not exploiting the situation to their benifit? I had no idea they were so selfless and just reporting the facts with out a slant...

[MOtorboat]

so the media is not exploiting the situation to their benifit? I had no idea they were so selfless and just reporting the facts with out a slant...

Oh, it's definitely a conspiracy.

:beer:

[nevcraw]

Oh, it's definitely a conspiracy.

:beer:

did i say it was a conspiracy?

maybe just not the "walter Kronkite" type of reporting you seem to be defending.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Exactly...nothing from the coach to say he is #2....Article Title is misleading and now all media is jumping all over it....Twitter was going nuts over it.

I don't even think the title of the thread was misleading - i.e.

Broncos' Brady Quinn works as No. 2 QB, but Tim Tebow getting more reps

Klis immediately then stated that Quinn took all of the snaps with the #2 offense on Monday. He reported what happened today in practice :confused:

[MOtorboat]

did i say it was a conspiracy?

maybe just not the "walter Kronkite" type of reporting you seem to be defending.

I haven't seen any slant coming from the Denver Post on anything. In fact, I think Klis and Jones have done a pretty good job. Woody is a different story, but he's also a columnist, who's job is to offer opinion and spark debate.

[Northman]

But that's where I am torn...while I agree that it takes more then three games to evaluate an athlete in any sport, I also realize that coaches see these kids day in and day out in practice - if Tebow was even moderately good then why is he so questionable during practice?

A lot of reasons.

1) After being drafted he is already got a new HC, and a new scheme and playbook to learn.

2) The lockout. Compared to Quinn and Orton who have had a few seasons under their belt so having that experience in general is much more helpful than what Tim has had.


Why doesn't his 'wow' factor impress them enough to say let's see what he can do? But no, instead they're going with one of the most detested quarterbacks that I can remember.

Because right now there is a lot of egg on the face of FO. While trying to trade Orton it blew up in their face. No way in their right mind are they going to sit a veteran QB (who has the leading receiver from last year crowing for him to start) and take the risk of losing the lockerroom. The FO made the mistake of saying Tebow would start before Orton was gone, this is just them saving face.


Tebow, stating that he doesn't have the skills to succeed and what I see in regards to his play mirrors that assessment, not to mention gives fuel to those critical of him kindling for their fires.

I can countless times where commentators and the like thought someone was going to succeed or fail and have been wrong. This is no different. Truth is, no one knows for sure and to "assume" after 3 games is very illogical and would allow me to question how competent they actually were. While i think Fox will do better than McD he also only has 3 winning seasons out of 9 so there is some problems there. I just hope he doesnt repeat them.


I don't think drafting a quarterback next year is idiotic, I think it's far more intelligent then drafting any defensive players, and I'll explain that. We know Quinn is likely gone, he wants to compete and Denver might be to rough and fickle for him to even want to try here. Orton is likewise gone, unless he has a stellar year, which I doubt and I don't think they see him as the future anyways, we're hearing too many remarks from Elway talking about a certain type of quarterbacks, those we'd consider franchise capable. So say we forgo drafting a quarterback and since we only Webber and Tebow under contract then we add a veteran, say maybe Kyle Boller or Rex Grossman, what if Tebow can not even beat them out?

Which is why ive been wanting to start Tebow. I understand where Elway's head is at but should we cut/trade Tebow and he becomes a SB winning QB with another team before we find a "FQB" of our own then what? Seriously? How ******* embarrassing would that be to let not just one VERY good QB go but then if Tebow actually gets to start and proves to be a FQB than we will look like some serious dolts. I would much rather know for sure that he isnt the guy than take the chance on some other Qb who isnt proven either. If Tebow got the start this year and never progressed or improved than i would understand them making a change.


Are you gonna be excited to see quarterbacks that make Orton look like an All-Pro under center? At least if we drafted a first round quarterback then Tebow has a far better chance to at least start for one year and prove his worth, and if he doesn't win the starting position and the rookie is better or for that matter the real deal, wouldn't you say that is better that we didn't waste a season hoping that he Tim turned out?

Sorry. Andrew Luck is not a shoe-in no matter how guys like SoCal or Rav try to paint it. Nobody has a crystal ball to prove that he will be any better than Tebow or even Ryan Leaf. Luck, Barkley, etc all have the same thing Tebow has.....potential. Thats it. Now, going by your theory that you draft a QB and try letting them compete next year what happens if they both suck? Now what? :lol:

See, its a fun game of who's got the better crystal ball right?


Another aspect of the argument is that Tebow has already received the largest guaranteed portion of his contract, adding another top quarterback prospect via the draft will not hurt the Broncos fiscally. So why not have more talent in a position of concern? Isn't it better to have more talent rather then risking having none because people wanted to see if Tebow was the real deal? I'm sure plenty of people disagree...but, if you look at it from every angle then drafting a quarterback, especially one of the better prospects is not only a safe choice but makes complete sense.

Again, hypotheticals. I watched the Detroit Lions for YEARS draft wide receiver after wide receiver and come up empty. I Still stand by my logic, if Tebow were to play and we found out what we had i would have no problem drafting a QB next year. But, since we are playing Orton im going to assume the FO thinks that Tebow needs more time to learn on the bench and will continue to fix the surrounding pieces on this team.

[Dzone]

Brees says Tebow can learn a lot from Kyle Orton-
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/08/saints-qb-drew-brees-leave-broncos-qb-tim-tebows-throwing-motion-alone/1

[MOtorboat]

Brees says Tebow can learn a lot from Kyle Orton-
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/08/saints-qb-drew-brees-leave-broncos-qb-tim-tebows-throwing-motion-alone/1

Oh my.

[Tned]

Oh my.

:lol: bait much? :lol:

[MOtorboat]

:lol: bait much? :lol:

I guess if you saw that as baiting, fine, but that was the, honest to God, two words that came out of my mouth when I read that.

I don't mind Tebow learning how to make his reads in shorts from Orton, but he's the last guy I want Tebow learning how to play in the clutch from.

[Tned]

I guess if you saw that as baiting, fine, but that was the, honest to God, two words that came out of my mouth when I read that.

I don't mind Tebow learning how to make his reads in shorts from Orton, but he's the last guy I want Tebow learning how to play in the clutch from.

It was actually the whole series of one liners in this thread that had me going Little sarcastic digs at people claiming media bias or whatever. Anyway, I just wanted to hop on the one-line train --- Chooo! Chooo! :lol:

[bcbronc]

I don't think drafting a quarterback next year is idiotic

imo the only idiotic decision would be making a decision on next year's QB right now.

Even though all three QBs on the roster have their haters, all three have had their moments in preseason. There's zero chance all three return next year, but there's a chance two of the three will. People often say when Orton gets hurt or removed due to play, it will be Tebow's time to shine, but it could very well be Quinn that gets the reigns and runs with them. Maybe he puts the QB controversy to bed and gets re-signed long term.

As for Tebow specifically, the coaches have the entire season to see how he grows as a QB. If the coaches see growth on the practice field, then taking a QB in the first would be a bad decision. You can't use another 1st if you think Tebow is going to be the guy under centre, or even just haven't ruled it out. A 2nd or 3rd, okay maybe.

But if Tebow can't show the coaches some improvement over the season, whether he gets to start games or not, then drafting a QB in the first would absolutely be the right move. There's no need to give Tebow a bunch of game action to decide what he is if he can't show improvement on the practice pitch first.

At this point, drafting a QB early next year is certainly an option on the table. But we need to see how Orton, Quinn and Tebow perform this season before deciding it's a priority. Best case scenerio, one of them--any of them--puts in a season that convinces most of the fans he's the guy long term, allowing us to keep going defense in RD1.

But if that doesn't happen, if come draft day next year the QB situation is no more decided than it is right now, then I agree with trying to resolve it once and for all with a first round pick.

[Lancane]

A lot of reasons.

1) After being drafted he is already got a new HC, and a new scheme and playbook to learn.

2) The lockout. Compared to Quinn and Orton who have had a few seasons under their belt so having that experience in general is much more helpful than what Tim has had.

Again, I will explain this...he got an adjusted playbook (not different, slightly changed), the offensive scheme remained mostly intact (quit buying into the media reported propaganda from the F.O. to appease the fans) - the fact that the terminology remained, the fact that McCoy is running the offense (who he himself only knows the offenses he's coached, both being variations of the same system), the fact that it's still the same base offensive scheme - the Erhardt-Perkins, tells us more then some want to admit. Each base offensive scheme, the Spread, West Coast, Coryell and so forth have basic used terminologies, some use numbers, letters, colors, animals; the Ernhardt-Perkins, the Air-Erhardt and the spread offenses based off that scheme follow that same base terminology. Now, let's be honest, we've seen a lot of the old offense and some plays from other schemes such as the Power I, Smash Mouth and Meyer's Spread, we still have to remember that we incorporated some of Carolina's Erhardt-Perkins when we first hired McCoy, the systems are so close that McDaniels felt comfortable with his choice of offensive coordinator because their offensive ideology was compatible.


Because right now there is a lot of egg on the face of FO. While trying to trade Orton it blew up in their face. No way in their right mind are they going to sit a veteran QB (who has the leading receiver from last year crowing for him to start) and take the risk of losing the lockerroom. The FO made the mistake of saying Tebow would start before Orton was gone, this is just them saving face.

Valid points, but we've seen proven veterans benched for an incumbent when the incumbent was better at the position. I don't buy it, even Lloyd said he expected Tebow to start, while he may have been crowing, they all know the nature of the business - I think people want and need to believe that it is so...I don't, not one damn bit.


I can countless times where commentators and the like thought someone was going to succeed or fail and have been wrong. This is no different. Truth is, no one knows for sure and to "assume" after 3 games is very illogical and would allow me to question how competent they actually were. While i think Fox will do better than McD he also only has 3 winning seasons out of 9 so there is some problems there. I just hope he doesnt repeat them.

Granted, that three games is not a fair amount of time for an assessment, and commentators, journalists, draftniks, columnists and so on have been wrong before, but they've also been right many times as well! You bring up Fox and his record, and I agree that his made a lot of mistakes in his career regarding the offense - but you're telling me that (at least in your opinion) that he should bet his career on Tebow, because that is what your essentially saying...for him and the Broncos to put all their eggs in one basket. It's one of the surest ways to screw the pooch once more.


Which is why ive been wanting to start Tebow. I understand where Elway's head is at but should we cut/trade Tebow and he becomes a SB winning QB with another team before we find a "FQB" of our own then what? Seriously? How ******* embarrassing would that be to let not just one VERY good QB go but then if Tebow actually gets to start and proves to be a FQB than we will look like some serious dolts. I would much rather know for sure that he isnt the guy than take the chance on some other Qb who isnt proven either. If Tebow got the start this year and never progressed or improved than i would understand them making a change.
I've never said we should trade Tebow unless they're absolutely sure that he is not the future of this team. If you read North, I was explaining why it makes sense, you disagree and I respect your opinion. But I would rather have a quarterback who earned his job and was not given to him because he's a first round pick, because he's a fan favorite or because a better veteran left leaving a void - I say let him earn it against someone of some caliber.


Sorry. Andrew Luck is not a shoe-in no matter how guys like SoCal or Rav try to paint it. Nobody has a crystal ball to prove that he will be any better than Tebow or even Ryan Leaf. Luck, Barkley, etc all have the same thing Tebow has.....potential. Thats it. Now, going by your theory that you draft a QB and try letting them compete next year what happens if they both suck? Now what? :lol:

See, its a fun game of who's got the better crystal ball right?

No one is a shoe-in, but again your asking this entire regime to place their bets, their careers on this kid, when so much about him is screaming that he could quite possibly fail, they don't want to discount him...but they can not also bet what is essentially their careers, the future of the organization and ire of the fanbase for a possible when they don't know if he is even capable and we see as much, and hear as much as we have.

I would rather be overstocked with talent at a position, then to be stuck without any and it likely hurting my career or more.


Again, hypotheticals. I watched the Detroit Lions for YEARS draft wide receiver after wide receiver and come up empty. I Still stand by my logic, if Tebow were to play and we found out what we had i would have no problem drafting a QB next year. But, since we are playing Orton im going to assume the FO thinks that Tebow needs more time to learn on the bench and will continue to fix the surrounding pieces on this team.

What you're stating is also a hypothetical, are you really ready to go through three or four years of mediocrity, only to have to replace the current regime with a whole new one and have to watch us go through this all over again? I sure in the hell don't.

[MOtorboat]

Because people are so quick to claim "bias" and claim that reporters only report things to get "clicks" then I would like to ask what is the bias or sensationalism behind this:

www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/13682485/31607696

[Tned]

Because people are so quick to claim "bias" and claim that reporters only report things to get "clicks" then I would like to ask what is the bias or sensationalism behind this:

Www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/13682485/31607696

Did anyone really say it was the ONLY motivation. They're job is to write stories that get read. In the case of online stuff, have others link to them, like we did with that story.

Look at the hurricane coverage this weekend. News outlets LOVE stories that they can sensationalize. That doesn't mean they don't do real reporting in between, but when they have that sensational story, they love it and run with it.

[MOtorboat]

[Did anyone really say it was the ONLY motivation.

Did you read through this thread?

[Tned]

Did you read through this thread?

Some of it, but I tend to skim over the religious baiting, sarcastic jabs and so much else that's in this thread, from ALL sides.

That said, the posts I've seen have talked about the sensationalism, writing for clicks and such, which is true. MANY, if not most, reporters and news agencies do it, but that doesn't mean that's all they do.

[Dirk]

So I am assuming that Tebow is going to be the 2nd QB Thursday since there aren't any headlines about him so far this week. :coffee:

[Canmore]

So I am assuming that Tebow is going to be the 2nd QB Thursday since there aren't any headlines about him so far this week. :coffee:

Haven't been any headlines since his game winning drive. :lol:

[Tned]

So I am assuming that Tebow is going to be the 2nd QB Thursday since there aren't any headlines about him so far this week. :coffee:

I read speculation somewhere that Quinn might come in and take only one or two drives, and then Tebow would get the bulk of time followed by Weber. Not sure if there was a solid basis for that.

Andrew Mason of Maxdenver wrote a piece on Weber, and also made a solid point that if the Broncos plan to stash Weber on the practice squad, then playing him in the preseason finale could be counterproductive, because it could lead to another team snatching him up.

Here's his article on Weber: http://www.maxdenver.com/news/2011/08/30/weber-awaits-his-shot/

[Slick]

Lets not be naive Mo. This story has been blown way the eff out of proportion.

[MOtorboat]

Lets not be naive Mo. This story has been blown way the eff out of proportion.

Tebow has been blown way out of proportion for the last six years. This isn't anything new, it's just newer to the Broncos.

It's like Elway watch, with less talent.

[Northman]

Again, I will explain this...he got an adjusted playbook (not different, slightly changed), the offensive scheme remained mostly intact (quit buying into the media reported propaganda from the F.O. to appease the fans) - the fact that the terminology remained, the fact that McCoy is running the offense (who he himself only knows the offenses he's coached, both being variations of the same system), the fact that it's still the same base offensive scheme - the Erhardt-Perkins, tells us more then some want to admit. Each base offensive scheme, the Spread, West Coast, Coryell and so forth have basic used terminologies, some use numbers, letters, colors, animals; the Ernhardt-Perkins, the Air-Erhardt and the spread offenses based off that scheme follow that same base terminology. Now, let's be honest, we've seen a lot of the old offense and some plays from other schemes such as the Power I, Smash Mouth and Meyer's Spread, we still have to remember that we incorporated some of Carolina's Erhardt-Perkins when we first hired McCoy, the systems are so close that McDaniels felt comfortable with his choice of offensive coordinator because their offensive ideology was compatible.

Dude, come on. The systems are NOWHERE alike. While the screens are common in every offense the smash mouth that Fox utilizes isnt near what McD was using. You can color it like you want but the offense are not close. Furthermore, the offseason hurt Tebow more than any QB on the roster except Weber.


Valid points, but we've seen proven veterans benched for an incumbent when the incumbent was better at the position. I don't buy it, even Lloyd said he expected Tebow to start, while he may have been crowing, they all know the nature of the business - I think people want and need to believe that it is so...I don't, not one damn bit.

Lloyd expected Tebow because he thought for sure Orton was gone. When that wasnt the case he changed his tune. In fact, changed it pretty convincingly because he knows he is going to get a much better payday behind Orton than he would Tebow.


and I agree that his made a lot of mistakes in his career regarding the offense - but you're telling me that (at least in your opinion) that he should bet his career on Tebow, because that is what your essentially saying...for him and the Broncos to put all their eggs in one basket. It's one of the surest ways to screw the pooch once more.

Uh, we are in the cellar of the AFCW my friend. Its not just because of the QB position hate to break that news to you. And simply finding out what he has in a 1st round draft choice for one year doesnt constitute as "putting all your eggs in one basket". To keep drafting QB after Qb without addressing the other needs on this team is screwing the pooch, just ask the Lions.


I've never said we should trade Tebow unless they're absolutely sure that he is not the future of this team. If you read North, I was explaining why it makes sense, you disagree and I respect your opinion. But I would rather have a quarterback who earned his job and was not given to him because he's a first round pick, because he's a fan favorite or because a better veteran left leaving a void - I say let him earn it against someone of some caliber.

I think your confusing me with some of the Tebowfanatics mate. I could give a RATS ASS about Tim Tebow whether fails or succeeds. Bottom line, he was drafted to be the QB of the future and i want to see if he has what it takes to be the guy. Simply taking a year when we are not going anywhere anyway to see if he can be the guy is not asking for much. Bradford, Stafford, Newton, Manning, Dalton, etc didnt EARN their jobs mate. They were handed the reigns because they are expected to be the QB of the future for those franchises. I could care less what is done in practice, everyone and their mother knows Tebow has things to work on. Its not always going to be pretty but it never is when you have a young QB finding his way. But you need to see what he has in a live game enviroment in order to determine where your going to go with that position.


No one is a shoe-in, but again your asking this entire regime to place their bets, their careers on this kid, when so much about him is screaming that he could quite possibly fail, they don't want to discount him...but they can not also bet what is essentially their careers, the future of the organization and ire of the fanbase for a possible when they don't know if he is even capable and we see as much, and hear as much as we have.

Lan, no im not. Im asking them to see what he has for one year. Thats it. But if they want to win now with Orton than im ok with Tim sitting so as long as when he gets his shot we will find out if he is the guy. Wasting more picks on that position without knowing is a fools game.


I would rather be overstocked with talent at a position, then to be stuck without any and it likely hurting my career or more.

If its actually talent. Overstocking yourself with Ryan Leafs isnt making a great career move.


What you're stating is also a hypothetical, are you really ready to go through three or four years of mediocrity, only to have to replace the current regime with a whole new one and have to watch us go through this all over again? I sure in the hell don't.

Drafting a QB in the first round next year isnt going to make us a SB contender. We are in the bottom of the barrell because of the McD regime and its going to take TIME to get out of it. I would much rather build the right way than become the Detroit Lions and be in the cellar for a decade because we kept trying to hit gold with one particular position.

[Slick]

Tebow has been blown way out of proportion for the last six years. This isn't anything new, it's just newer to the Broncos.

It's like Elway watch, with less talent.

The last 6 years don't matter Mo. I'm talking about just his time as a Bronco, and in particular, the media's coverage of him post lock out.

[BroncoNut]

The last 6 years don't matter Mo. I'm talking about just his time as a Bronco, and in particular, the media's coverage of him post lock out.

I agree. All you have is today

[Lancane]

Dude, come on. The systems are NOWHERE alike. While the screens are common in every offense the smash mouth that Fox utilizes isnt near what McD was using. You can color it like you want but the offense are not close. Furthermore, the offseason hurt Tebow more than any QB on the roster except Weber.

If that's what you want to believe, then I will let you do so with absolute blind bliss bro. But the truth is much harsher then reality, the difference between the two is marginal, and we're not running a Smash Mouth, they're running an Erhardt-Perkins that has Smash-Mouth variations assimilated into the overall scheme. Just as Pittsburgh does, their base is likewise a variation of the Erhardt-Perkins, but they also have Smash Mouth and aspects of the Pistol incorporated into their overall scheme. If anything the new offense should be far easier to learn because we've cut or I should say trimmed off some of the Air-Erhardt aspects.


Lloyd expected Tebow because he thought for sure Orton was gone. When that wasnt the case he changed his tune. In fact, changed it pretty convincingly because he knows he is going to get a much better payday behind Orton than he would Tebow.

Lloyd had stated that during the off-season, a week or two before we heard a damn thing about Orton demanding a trade or Tebow being named the starter.


Uh, we are in the cellar of the AFCW my friend. Its not just because of the QB position hate to break that news to you. And simply finding out what he has in a 1st round draft choice for one year doesnt constitute as "putting all your eggs in one basket". To keep drafting QB after Qb without addressing the other needs on this team is screwing the pooch, just ask the Lions.

But, the issue isn't that we are the Lions, nor the Browns...the issue is that we we're far closer to being a competitive team with a franchise quarterback then we are without. You're repeating same thing that others are, it's the defense, the defense, the defense and yet we have enough pieces together to be optimistic? We need more talent and it's fare to say that includes at the quarterback position. And I am not saying to ignore other positions either...I am not saying to trade all our picks for one pick, I am saying that it's smart if we can to draft a quarterback.

We have a solid, young offensive line, though there are one or two concerns, overall we could be far worse. We have a pretty solid wide receiver corps. with Lloyd, Decker and Royal, should Demaryius Thomas return and actually not be plagued by injuries then we could have one of the better corps. behind Green Bay. The defensive backfield has Bailey and Goodman, they thrive off each other, we may lack talent behind them...but we could do far worse then Vaughn and Thompson, as for the safety position? I've never been more comfortable about the position since Atwater retired, we have Dawkins, Moore is looking like the real deal, McCarthy may eventually be Dawkin's replacement, that doesn't include that we have Carter, Bruton and McBath in the wings as well. Our linebackers are better, not great, but between Miller and Williams it's far better then some, we could us a legit middle, but we're not shit in that aspect, we have some young talent in the wings that need time. So the only real aspects where we could be considered lacking talent is at defensive tackle and possibly at defensive end, we'll need to see about the end position - it's too early to call it at this point. That leaves defensive tackles, and this draft isn't great - it's not a weak class but far from astounding, I don't think Worthy or Crick are far superior to those behind them. Now, if there was a defensive tackle of the caliber of Dareus or Fairley, then I would say screw the quarterback position for the year, but Worthy is not even close (and I am a Big Ten fan) we could do worse then Worthy...but I believe drafting a quarterback makes absolute sense at this point, because I don't think we're that far from competing IMHO.


I think your confusing me with some of the Tebowfanatics mate. I could give a RATS ASS about Tim Tebow whether fails or succeeds. Bottom line, he was drafted to be the QB of the future and i want to see if he has what it takes to be the guy. Simply taking a year when we are not going anywhere anyway to see if he can be the guy is not asking for much. Bradford, Stafford, Newton, Manning, Dalton, etc didnt EARN their jobs mate. They were handed the reigns because they are expected to be the QB of the future for those franchises. I could care less what is done in practice, everyone and their mother knows Tebow has things to work on. Its not always going to be pretty but it never is when you have a young QB finding his way. But you need to see what he has in a live game enviroment in order to determine where your going to go with that position.

I think sometimes you get labeled as such because you defend your position on the matter so headily. And I've stated a few times that I agree with you, that we should see what he has and to give him a year, but I'd rather be the San Diego Chargers with Brees and Rivers, then the Miami Dolphins with Henne and Moore. If Tebow deserves it then let him compete with another first round pick and win the job, because even Couch had decent stats his first season as did Pennington and others who ended up being mediocre or worse, absolute busts...remember Anderson in Cleveland?

Let's say we go with him for a year, Tebow does alright but not great - what is it we'll hear? It was his first season, he'll improve and yadda, yadda. So then Fox and company gives him another year, but again the same result. So that means that Fox has what, a year left on his contract? How does he save his job? More then likely at that point he can draft a kid, if we are even in reach of any kind of talented quarterbacks or more then likely he'll trade for a veteran of some capability only causing more of the same utter bullshit. And then likely we'll have to rebuild because he was fired, then at that point we are more like Detroit and Cleveland.


Lan, no im not. Im asking them to see what he has for one year. Thats it. But if they want to win now with Orton than im ok with Tim sitting so as long as when he gets his shot we will find out if he is the guy. Wasting more picks on that position without knowing is a fools game.
I think we've beat this horse till it's blue in the face, I agree for the most part, but I don't think we should count that he's anything more then we've seen and as for me...I don't think that's much. (So you and I will just have to disagree) And I would like nothing more then for Tebow to prove me wrong, but I also don't want to see us sustain a level of mediocrity as we did eventually with Shanahan or have been since we lost Elway or worse, become cellar dwellers for the next decade.


If its actually talent. Overstocking yourself with Ryan Leafs isnt making a great career move.

That is true, but then again trusting the franchise with someone like Tim Couch will do you any good if you draft the next Courtney Brown instead of the next Schaub, Flacco or Rodgers!
;)


Drafting a QB in the first round next year isnt going to make us a SB contender. We are in the bottom of the barrell because of the McD regime and its going to take TIME to get out of it. I would much rather build the right way than become the Detroit Lions and be in the cellar for a decade because we kept trying to hit gold with one particular position.
No, drafting a quarterback in the first will not make us a Super Bowl contender, but having a legit franchise quarterback will get us closer then we are now, and some would say that the results are inarguable because of what we've seen over the past three decades in that regard. You point to building the right way, so what is the right way?

Let's say that we have a chance to draft Landry Jones but instead take Jered Crick and for whatever reason he doesn't transition well, but Landry Jones goes on to Washington or wherever and becomes a consensus All-Pro, then suddenly Tebow flops and then what? We neither have improved at either position, again at the same time I realize that it could go the other way as well, Jones doesn't transition well and Crick in the consensus All-Pro, but there is still that chance that we're putting too much faith in Tebow on whether we succeed or not.

[Nomad]

The last 6 years don't matter Mo. I'm talking about just his time as a Bronco, and in particular, the media's coverage of him post lock out.

Yep! He lead Florida to many, many wins and was a great player/QB for them. I believe some people just envy and are jealous of Tebow....the person. He may not become an elite QB but he'll always be a good person.

[Lancane]

Dude, come on. The systems are NOWHERE alike. While the screens are common in every offense the smash mouth that Fox utilizes isnt near what McD was using. You can color it like you want but the offense are not close. Furthermore, the offseason hurt Tebow more than any QB on the roster except Weber.

If that's what you want to believe, then I will let you do so with absolute blind bliss bro. But the truth is much harsher then reality, the difference between the two is marginal, and we're not running a Smash Mouth, they're running an Erhardt-Perkins that has Smash-Mouth variations assimilated into the overall scheme. Just as Pittsburgh does, their base is likewise a variation of the Erhardt-Perkins, but they also have Smash Mouth and aspects of the Pistol incorporated into their overall scheme. If anything the new offense should be far easier to learn because we've cut or I should say trimmed off some of the Air-Erhardt aspects.


Lloyd expected Tebow because he thought for sure Orton was gone. When that wasnt the case he changed his tune. In fact, changed it pretty convincingly because he knows he is going to get a much better payday behind Orton than he would Tebow.

Lloyd had stated that during the off-season, a week or two before we heard a damn thing about Orton demanding a trade or Tebow being named the starter.


Uh, we are in the cellar of the AFCW my friend. Its not just because of the QB position hate to break that news to you. And simply finding out what he has in a 1st round draft choice for one year doesnt constitute as "putting all your eggs in one basket". To keep drafting QB after Qb without addressing the other needs on this team is screwing the pooch, just ask the Lions.

But, the issue isn't that we are the Lions, nor the Browns...the issue is that we we're far closer to being a competitive team with a franchise quarterback then we are without. You're repeating same thing that others are, it's the defense, the defense, the defense and yet we have enough pieces together to be optimistic? We need more talent and it's fare to say that includes at the quarterback position. And I am not saying to ignore other positions either...I am not saying to trade all our picks for one pick, I am saying that it's smart if we can to draft a quarterback.

We have a solid, young offensive line, though there are one or two concerns, overall we could be far worse. We have a pretty solid wide receiver corps. with Lloyd, Decker and Royal, should Demaryius Thomas return and actually not be plagued by injuries then we could have one of the better corps. behind Green Bay. The defensive backfield has Bailey and Goodman, they thrive off each other, we may lack talent behind them...but we could do far worse then Vaughn and Thompson, as for the safety position? I've never been more comfortable about the position since Atwater retired, we have Dawkins, Moore is looking like the real deal, McCarthy may eventually be Dawkin's replacement, that doesn't include that we have Carter, Bruton and McBath in the wings as well. Our linebackers are better, not great, but between Miller and Williams it's far better then some, we could us a legit middle, but we're not shit in that aspect, we have some young talent in the wings that need time. So the only real aspects where we could be considered lacking talent is at defensive tackle and possibly at defensive end, we'll need to see about the end position - it's too early to call it at this point. That leaves defensive tackles, and this draft isn't great - it's not a weak class but far from astounding, I don't think Worthy or Crick are far superior to those behind them. Now, if there was a defensive tackle of the caliber of Dareus or Fairley, then I would say screw the quarterback position for the year, but Worthy is not even close (and I am a Big Ten fan) we could do worse then Worthy...but I believe drafting a quarterback makes absolute sense at this point, because I don't think we're that far from competing IMHO.


I think your confusing me with some of the Tebowfanatics mate. I could give a RATS ASS about Tim Tebow whether fails or succeeds. Bottom line, he was drafted to be the QB of the future and i want to see if he has what it takes to be the guy. Simply taking a year when we are not going anywhere anyway to see if he can be the guy is not asking for much. Bradford, Stafford, Newton, Manning, Dalton, etc didnt EARN their jobs mate. They were handed the reigns because they are expected to be the QB of the future for those franchises. I could care less what is done in practice, everyone and their mother knows Tebow has things to work on. Its not always going to be pretty but it never is when you have a young QB finding his way. But you need to see what he has in a live game enviroment in order to determine where your going to go with that position.

I think sometimes you get labeled as such because you defend your position on the matter so headily. And I've stated a few times that I agree with you, that we should see what he has and to give him a year, but I'd rather be the San Diego Chargers with Brees and Rivers, then the Miami Dolphins with Henne and Moore. If Tebow deserves it then let him compete with another first round pick and win the job, because even Couch had decent stats his first season as did Pennington and others who ended up being mediocre or worse, absolute busts...remember Anderson in Cleveland?

Let's say we go with him for a year, Tebow does alright but not great - what is it we'll hear? It was his first season, he'll improve and yadda, yadda. So then Fox and company gives him another year, but again the same result. So that means that Fox has what, a year left on his contract? How does he save his job? More then likely at that point he can draft a kid, if we are even in reach of any kind of talented quarterbacks or more then likely he'll trade for a veteran of some capability only causing more of the same utter bullshit. And then likely we'll have to rebuild because he was fired, then at that point we are more like Detroit and Cleveland.


Lan, no im not. Im asking them to see what he has for one year. Thats it. But if they want to win now with Orton than im ok with Tim sitting so as long as when he gets his shot we will find out if he is the guy. Wasting more picks on that position without knowing is a fools game.
I think we've beat this horse till it's blue in the face, I agree for the most part, but I don't think we should count that he's anything more then we've seen and as for me...I don't think that's much. (So you and I will just have to disagree) And I would like nothing more then for Tebow to prove me wrong, but I also don't want to see us sustain a level of mediocrity as we did eventually with Shanahan or have been since we lost Elway or worse, become cellar dwellers for the next decade.


If its actually talent. Overstocking yourself with Ryan Leafs isnt making a great career move.

That is true, but then again trusting the franchise with someone like Tim Couch will do you any good if you draft the next Courtney Brown instead of the next Schaub, Flacco or Rodgers!
;)


Drafting a QB in the first round next year isnt going to make us a SB contender. We are in the bottom of the barrell because of the McD regime and its going to take TIME to get out of it. I would much rather build the right way than become the Detroit Lions and be in the cellar for a decade because we kept trying to hit gold with one particular position.
No, drafting a quarterback in the first will not make us a Super Bowl contender, but having a legit franchise quarterback will get us closer then we are now, and some would say that the results are inarguable because of what we've seen over the past three decades in that regard. You point to building the right way, so what is the right way?

Let's say that we have a chance to draft Landry Jones but instead take Jered Crick and for whatever reason he doesn't transition well, but Landry Jones goes on to Washington or wherever and becomes a consensus All-Pro, then suddenly Tebow flops and then what? We neither have improved at either position, again at the same time I realize that it could go the other way as well, Jones doesn't transition well and Crick in the consensus All-Pro, but there is still that chance that we're putting too much faith in Tebow on whether we succeed or not.

After all it's not like we have John Elway under center and are drafting Tommy Maddox, we may not even have a Brian Griese in Tim Tebow.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I did not want to start a new thread on this, but there have been some that have posted something like Pat Bowlen is keeping Tebow around for the jersey sale money he brings the Broncos - first, sales for NFL merchandise goes into one pot, and becomes part of profit sharing. Second, according to article -



According to the NFL, from April 1 to July 31, Tebow had the eighth-most popular jersey in terms of sales at the league's merchandise website.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18784663

[Lancane]

I did not want to start a new thread on this, but there have been some that have posted something like Pat Bowlen is keeping Tebow around for the jersey sale money he brings the Broncos - first, sales for NFL merchandise goes into one pot, and becomes part of profit sharing. Second, according to article -



full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18784663

If that is true Carol, you have to wonder if the Broncos can talk Tebow into trying other positions or become a variable threat who can play a whole stem of other positions and still be a backup quarterback?

[BroncoNut]

Tim can play anywhere on the field. I bet he'd make a pretty decent safety.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

If that is true Carol, you have to wonder if the Broncos can talk Tebow into trying other positions or become a variable threat who can play a whole stem of other positions and still be a backup quarterback?

Article from NFL, dated April 14, 2011, Tebow was 5th on that list

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81f410f2/article/polamalu-packers-top-nfl-jersey-merchandise-sales-lists

Also, when the media here have talked with Tebow at various times, he has stated that he will do whatever the Broncos want him to do.

[Northman]

But, the issue isn't that we are the Lions, nor the Browns...the issue is that we we're far closer to being a competitive team with a franchise quarterback then we are without.

We are? Didnt we have Cutler and at best the one of the worst defenses ever yet finished 8-8? Since 07' the defense has gotten worse and worse yet we draft Miller and all of a sudden we are a contender? Lol, come on broham. Lets not get carried away with the vanilla preseason. Lets also not forget we have some serious issues with depth and since the Broncos have proven they cannot stay healthy with regularity the chances of being TRULY competitive this year is minimal.


You're repeating same thing that others are, it's the defense, the defense, the defense and yet we have enough pieces together to be optimistic?

Will we be improved from last year? I believe so but that has more to do with a different scheme and coaching than anything else.


We need more talent and it's fare to say that includes at the quarterback position.

But we dont know that. Thats kind of the point. You dont keep drafting for a position when you dont already know what you have. Thats like saying lets just keep drafting QB's in the first round for the next 6 years without letting any of them show what they have. You just cant do that brother and expect to be successful in the NFL.


And I am not saying to ignore other positions either...I am not saying to trade all our picks for one pick, I am saying that it's smart if we can to draft a quarterback.

Sure, we can draft one in the later rounds. I have no problem with that but until we know what we have in Tebow and Quinn than taking a QB early doesnt make any sense.


We have a solid, young offensive line, though there are one or two concerns, overall we could be far worse. We have a pretty solid wide receiver corps. with Lloyd, Decker and Royal, should Demaryius Thomas return and actually not be plagued by injuries then we could have one of the better corps. behind Green Bay. The defensive backfield has Bailey and Goodman, they thrive off each other, we may lack talent behind them...but we could do far worse then Vaughn and Thompson, as for the safety position? I've never been more comfortable about the position since Atwater retired, we have Dawkins, Moore is looking like the real deal, McCarthy may eventually be Dawkin's replacement, that doesn't include that we have Carter, Bruton and McBath in the wings as well. Our linebackers are better, not great, but between Miller and Williams it's far better then some, we could us a legit middle, but we're not shit in that aspect, we have some young talent in the wings that need time. So the only real aspects where we could be considered lacking talent is at defensive tackle and possibly at defensive end, we'll need to see about the end position - it's too early to call it at this point. That leaves defensive tackles, and this draft isn't great - it's not a weak class but far from astounding, I don't think Worthy or Crick are far superior to those behind them. Now, if there was a defensive tackle of the caliber of Dareus or Fairley, then I would say screw the quarterback position for the year, but Worthy is not even close (and I am a Big Ten fan) we could do worse then Worthy...but I believe drafting a quarterback makes absolute sense at this point, because I don't think we're that far from competing IMHO.

I would agree with this sentiment but its too early to tell whats going to be available by draftime.


I think sometimes you get labeled as such because you defend your position on the matter so headily. And I've stated a few times that I agree with you, that we should see what he has and to give him a year, but I'd rather be the San Diego Chargers with Brees and Rivers, then the Miami Dolphins with Henne and Moore. If Tebow deserves it then let him compete with another first round pick and win the job, because even Couch had decent stats his first season as did Pennington and others who ended up being mediocre or worse, absolute busts...remember Anderson in Cleveland?

Technically we are the Chargers. We have 2 first round QB's on the roster, even SD didnt have that. Brees was a later pick, so was Brady and both have rings.


Let's say we go with him for a year, Tebow does alright but not great - what is it we'll hear? It was his first season, he'll improve and yadda, yadda. So then Fox and company gives him another year, but again the same result. So that means that Fox has what, a year left on his contract? How does he save his job? More then likely at that point he can draft a kid, if we are even in reach of any kind of talented quarterbacks or more then likely he'll trade for a veteran of some capability only causing more of the same utter bullshit. And then likely we'll have to rebuild because he was fired, then at that point we are more like Detroit and Cleveland.

Depends. If Tebow were to start the entire year you would be able to tell if he was progressing by the end of the year. Its wouldnt be a case like last year where we only saw him for 3 games.


I think we've beat this horse till it's blue in the face, I agree for the most part, but I don't think we should count that he's anything more then we've seen and as for me...I don't think that's much. (So you and I will just have to disagree) And I would like nothing more then for Tebow to prove me wrong, but I also don't want to see us sustain a level of mediocrity as we did eventually with Shanahan or have been since we lost Elway or worse, become cellar dwellers for the next decade.

Ive said this in the past and ill say it again. I think Elway and Fox are turning this team around. FQB's will always be there somewhere in a draft so even Denver doesnt take one next year there will always be the year after. People are so quick to believe that next year is the only time a team can get one when that really isnt the case. Denver is rebuilding, they have two young QB's on the roster and they will see what they have at some point. While i think Elway and company will look at QB's next year (like they did this year) im convinced that we wont draft one UNLESS we see Quinn or Tebow for significant time this year and they are able to evaluate them properly.


That is true, but then again trusting the franchise with someone like Tim Couch will do you any good if you draft the next Courtney Brown instead of the next Schaub, Flacco or Rodgers!
;)

All very true.


No, drafting a quarterback in the first will not make us a Super Bowl contender, but having a legit franchise quarterback will get us closer then we are now, and some would say that the results are inarguable because of what we've seen over the past three decades in that regard. You point to building the right way, so what is the right way?

For now? For Denver? Building the right way is not rushing to judgement until you know for sure what you have. At NO POINT has a team given up on a first round QB after just 3 games. I really hate to think what might have happened had Denver given up on Elway after his first 3 starts. You just cant do that and expect to be successful.


Let's say that we have a chance to draft Landry Jones but instead take Jered Crick and for whatever reason he doesn't transition well, but Landry Jones goes on to Washington or wherever and becomes a consensus All-Pro, then suddenly Tebow flops and then what? We neither have improved at either position, again at the same time I realize that it could go the other way as well, Jones doesn't transition well and Crick in the consensus All-Pro, but there is still that chance that we're putting too much faith in Tebow on whether we succeed or not.

Every draft choice is a risk no matter the person or position. However, i said it last offseason that with all the naysayers about Fairley and his attitude that i was willing to take a chance on DT rather than CB or even LB. I like Miller but he wasnt my first choice and i still think we will struggle with stopping the run.


After all it's not like we have John Elway under center and are drafting Tommy Maddox, we may not even have a Brian Griese in Tim Tebow.

All very true as well. But, we could have the next John Elway and not even know it yet. ;)

[Northman]

Article from NFL, dated April 14, 2011, Tebow was 5th on that list

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81f410f2/article/polamalu-packers-top-nfl-jersey-merchandise-sales-lists

Also, when the media here have talked with Tebow at various times, he has stated that he will do whatever the Broncos want him to do.

Thats good to know. Thats one reason why i gave props to Pryor. But i do think that Timmy wants to succeed as a QB. I think he would feel a little deflated if he didnt make it as one. But if he can succeed at another position than great.

[Ravage!!!]

They know we don't have the next Elway. If you can't show it in practice, you won't show it in the games. Griese didn't beat out whats-his-name based on pre-season games. If he wasn't better in practice (or at least just as good), he wouldn't have won the job. Someone tried to tell me Terrell Davis won his job in pre-season game. Nope. He earned a spot on the team. He WON his starting job in practice.

Its one thing if the QB in question is "close"... so close that starting one of the other wouldn't change much. The difference is, the coaches can see if a guy is just not getting IT.. and that has nothing to do with the angle of his arm from which he throws.

If the QB is unable to make the reads, make the passes, and/or run the offense... then it's not close. If you have to scale back the offense, not because the QB is young, but because the QB simply is not there. That means as a 3rd year QB, he's going to be further behind than most rookies that are drafted in the first round. So if you try to take "away" from where he was drafted.. ok. But if you can then draft a stud QB in the first round that is most probably already up to speed on reading defenses, dropping back, playing from the pocket, and a much more accurate thrower.....its going from THERE and moving forward instead of trying to dig out of a hole and use three seasons to get a kid to where he SHOULD have been when drafted.

Don't think the coaches don't know what they have simply becuase he's not getting pre-season snaps. For every Kurt Warner stories, there are TONS of QBs that didn't make it because they just didn't have it. I think the coaches see MORE than enough to know, and pre-season games (as we all here know) don't mean squat (yes, that means some "come back" for a field goal against a vanilla defense in pre-season game... a game in which most people were PISSED ((probably the players as well)).. that a team decided to 'tie' the stupid game to begin with)

[Northman]

Don't think the coaches don't know what they have simply becuase he's not getting pre-season snaps.

No, they dont. If they did they wouldnt of bothered keeping him and giving him his bonus money. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

No, they dont. If they did they wouldnt of bothered keeping him and giving him his bonus money. :lol:

hah... well.. that kinda tells you how bad the ones behind him are. :lol:

Oh well. I think its basically a waiting game until about midseason (nine games) anyway before we see Tebow starting. That is, if Orton can stay healthy that long.

[Slick]

teams scale back their offenses for their young qb's Rav, that is nothing new. THe Jets did it with Sanchez, and the Steelers did it with Rothlesberger.

You limit them to one or two reads, or one side of the field. Shottenheimer has been slowly opening his up to Sanchez. Rothlesberger rarely sits i the pocket and throws strikes all game, yet he is considered a FQB. Is he better than tebow at playing from the pocket???? hell yeah he is but he's had a lot more playing time as well.

I think the main reason for all the hoopla is the failed trade of Orton. Because it seemed like we were ready to do just that, but now we aren't.

[Ravage!!!]

teams scale back their offenses for their young qb's Rav, that is nothing new. THe Jets did it with Sanchez, and the Steelers did it with Rothlesberger.

You limit them to one or two reads, or one side of the field. Shottenheimer has been slowly opening his up to Sanchez. Rothlesberger rarely sits i the pocket and throws strikes all game, yet he is considered a FQB. Is he better than tebow at playing from the pocket???? hell yeah he is but he's had a lot more playing time as well.

I think the main reason for all the hoopla is the failed trade of Orton. Because it seemed like we were ready to do just that, but now we aren't.

Of course they do. But that says a lot in itself.

I don't think the Broncos really wanted to trade Orton. They could have made that deal. That, or they are really glad it didn't go through. THey were pretty fast to name Orton the starter once the trade was named to have not been finalized. There is a reason for that.

I just don't think people want to admit that Tebow is further behind than we want to admit. Jaws was very VERY adament that Orton would be the starter for the entire year if he was still on the roster, and that was at the draft back in April. He said these things after watching the game tape of Tim's three starts. Those didn't remove doubt for Jaws, it created MORE doubt.

Believe me, they limited the playbook down for Tebow. The coaches simply want to give their team teh best chance to win.

I would say that over 90% of here played HS football, and a much smaller % played college. When you are on a team, its not hard to see who is playing well, and who isn't. ITs not hard to see which players should be the starter and gives you the best chance to win. That doesn't change at the NFL level. Players know. Coaches know.

[NightTerror218]

Of course they do. But that says a lot in itself.

I don't think the Broncos really wanted to trade Orton. They could have made that deal. That, or they are really glad it didn't go through. THey were pretty fast to name Orton the starter once the trade was named to have not been finalized. There is a reason for that.

I just don't think people want to admit that Tebow is further behind than we want to admit. Jaws was very VERY adament that Orton would be the starter for the entire year if he was still on the roster, and that was at the draft back in April. He said these things after watching the game tape of Tim's three starts. Those didn't remove doubt for Jaws, it created MORE doubt.

Believe me, they limited the playbook down for Tebow. The coaches simply want to give their team teh best chance to win.

I would say that over 90% of here played HS football, and a much smaller % played college. When you are on a team, its not hard to see who is playing well, and who isn't. ITs not hard to see which players should be the starter and gives you the best chance to win. That doesn't change at the NFL level. Players know. Coaches know.


I think it was a week ago Orton was named week 1 starter. That was not right off the bat. The depth chart just never changed after the draft fell through.

Most rookie QBs and 2nd year have limited playbooks, Tebow did, Sanchez did and several others. Its an easy way to break a QB into the offense and the NFL.

I played sports all my life, Football, rugby, soccer, and basketball. We knew who should start or not, but we also knew who was a team leader, who pumped us up, and who gave us better chance to win because certain attributes but were not the best athlete.

I think Orton lacks the intangibles. He may have better skills right now but with a team down in the dirt you need someone who can lead, and get the team pumped to play better. A guy who will step it up when it matters. I have never seen these in Orton. I might go with Quinn over Orton right now because I know what I got with Orton, Quinn and Tebow are questions. Quinn could come out looking amazing, much better then in Cleveland. Some players have better careers after they are traded from their first team.

[Slick]

I think we are all past the point of pointing out what orton can or cant do phidelt.

[Northman]

Believe me, they limited the playbook down for Tebow. The coaches simply want to give their team teh best chance to win.



And thats just it. Fox believes he can win now and with the experience that Orton has he will start him because he is "ahead" of Tebow at this point as he SHOULD be. But for teams like Carolina, St. Louis, and Detroit it wasnt about whether or not those guys give them the best chance to win. It was about getting them gametime experience until they have the right pieces around them so that they are READY when they make their SB runs. Frankly, Denver isnt closer than any of those to a SB run but Fox feels he needs to try and win as many games right now so that is his decision.

But for me, i would rather see Tebow and Denver get their lumps now so that when they finish getting all the right pieces he will be READY to lead the team to the SB "if" he is the guy. But we just dont know that and apparently neither does the coaches or Elway or as i said they wouldnt of bothered keeping him around. I mean, even Quinn seems to be further along than Tebow at this point so they must see something in Tebow to believe he can be the future. And the fact that Klis and Lombardi say that he is the future QB of Denver must mean something.

[Ravage!!!]

But for me, i would rather see Tebow and Denver get their lumps now so that when they finish getting all the right pieces he will be READY to lead the team to the SB "if" he is the guy. But we just dont know that and apparently neither does the coaches or Elway or as i said they wouldnt of bothered keeping him around. I mean, even Quinn seems to be further along than Tebow at this point so they must see something in Tebow to believe he can be the future. And the fact that Klis and Lombardi say that he is the future QB of Denver must mean something.

So you think it says something because they didn't trade Tebow away?

[Northman]

So you think it says something because they didn't trade Tebow away?

I do.

While i dont know if Tebow is a FQB i dont think Elway and Fox do either. At least yet. I think they are being cautious as too not screw the pooch. While i dont agree on them waiting to see what he has i think that is exactly what they are doing. As someone pointed to earlier in either this thread or another when the Broncos announced they were trading Orton and going with Tebow and had yet to offload Orton that put them in a bind.

While its an easy decision for me the fan to say i would of gone with Tebow anyway to make sure i knew what i had i understand that its not my job thats on the line and Fox needs to show progress NOW rather than later. Unfortuantely, McD was the greatest mistake the team ever made and it has cost us dearly in terms of player evaluation.

[Lancane]

We are? Didnt we have Cutler and at best the one of the worst defenses ever yet finished 8-8? Since 07' the defense has gotten worse and worse yet we draft Miller and all of a sudden we are a contender? Lol, come on broham. Lets not get carried away with the vanilla preseason. Lets also not forget we have some serious issues with depth and since the Broncos have proven they cannot stay healthy with regularity the chances of being TRULY competitive this year is minimal.

8-8 is a lot closer then 3-13 buddy! ;)

And let's be honest, if that same said offense had Nolan's defense or possibly Fox's would they not have been a contender? One can argue their thoughts on the matter, but it's fair to say that more then likely we'd have been a playoff team.

We do have some issues in regards to some positions or depth at several, but the reason our depth looks so weak is not so much that it is for that matter weak, it's the fact that the roster is rather young, we have fifty-three athletes on the roster with three years or less experience - that's phenomenal, most of them have been added via the draft the past four seasons, making us a very young team in the process.


Will we be improved from last year? I believe so but that has more to do with a different scheme and coaching than anything else.

I would say coaching plays a part, it's not like Fox is Harbaugh or Ryan, he's pretty much a defensive version of Reeves or Fassel, adequate and could possibly make us better, but the type that has to depend on talent more then his knowledge to succeed. And we have a capable talent base to build off from, it's not like we only had one or two talented kids like Cleveland usually does.


But we dont know that. Thats kind of the point. You dont keep drafting for a position when you dont already know what you have. Thats like saying lets just keep drafting QB's in the first round for the next 6 years without letting any of them show what they have. You just cant do that brother and expect to be successful in the NFL.

No, that is very true...but you can't always count on a kid transcending to the next level as well. Tebow is truly a talented athlete, but that doesn't mean he is a talented quarterback. Remember Matt Jones? Rod Smith? Both had been quarterbacks and proved to be better elsewhere then the positions they originally wanted to play...look at D.J. Williams who had been a tailback!


Sure, we can draft one in the later rounds. I have no problem with that but until we know what we have in Tebow and Quinn than taking a QB early doesnt make any sense.

So you're okay with taking inferior talent at the position in favor of Tebow, and instead are okay with taking capable defensive players that are not much better then those behind them?

:shocked:


I would agree with this sentiment but its too early to tell whats going to be available by draftime.

That's true, we really never know until the draft is almost upon us how the field will breakdown or play out.


Technically we are the Chargers. We have 2 first round QB's on the roster, even SD didnt have that. Brees was a later pick, so was Brady and both have rings.

Not even close, but a good use of material for the debate.

Tebow was not a first round graded quarterback, heck...many didn't even grade him out as a solid second round graded quarterback (he is a project) usually they have third or latter round grades, we just had a coach at the time who thought more of him then most other heads in the NFL. Quinn is a first round graded quarterback who was drafted as such, but is he getting a fair shot? No, so why should Tebow? Or better yet, why can neither first round quarterbacks beat out a journeyman fourth round pick that can't even seem to hold on to the starting position on any team he's been on? And Brees had a latter first round grade, he slipped into the second. Brady was as much a fluke as Terrell Davis or Rod Smith, if we're continually hoping that the butter is good at the bottom of the barrel, then we better get ready to eat a bunch of rancid shit!


Depends. If Tebow were to start the entire year you would be able to tell if he was progressing by the end of the year. Its wouldnt be a case like last year where we only saw him for 3 games.

Tim Couch had solid numbers his first year as did other busts such as Matt Leinart, so let's say Tebow does the same...then he get's another year. By the time your done giving these kids a chance, they've done harmed the football team because your left holding your johnson.


Ive said this in the past and ill say it again. I think Elway and Fox are turning this team around. FQB's will always be there somewhere in a draft so even Denver doesnt take one next year there will always be the year after. People are so quick to believe that next year is the only time a team can get one when that really isnt the case. Denver is rebuilding, they have two young QB's on the roster and they will see what they have at some point. While i think Elway and company will look at QB's next year (like they did this year) im convinced that we wont draft one UNLESS we see Quinn or Tebow for significant time this year and they are able to evaluate them properly.

Quinn is likely gone after the year, most analysts agree with that. You're expecting this to be fair, was it fair to not give Quinn a chance after we traded for him and then draft someone else? Was it fair that Quinn didn't get an honest chance to compete this year for a spot because Orton decided Miami didn't suit him? Was it fair to the fans to lose Cutler and have him replaced by Orton? Is it fair that we have to settle for Orton starting even though most utterly despise his ass? It's not about fair, it's about winning and putting a winning product on the field, if Tebow and Quinn can not even beat out Orton for the starting position just on their talent alone beyond being first round selections as you so put it, then why should the team be fair and say that either deserves a shot on the field instead of drafting someone they feel is better suited?

As to the other part, I explained Brees slipped much like others have before. Farve had a late first round grade he likewise went into the second round, Dalton had a similar grade he could have gone late in the first or early in the second as he did. Brady was again a fluke, and Belichick got lucky with Mallett in the same sense this past draft. But nine times out of ten franchise capable quarterbacks are not drafted in the latter rounds so that argument has no foundation.


For now? For Denver? Building the right way is not rushing to judgement until you know for sure what you have. At NO POINT has a team given up on a first round QB after just 3 games. I really hate to think what might have happened had Denver given up on Elway after his first 3 starts. You just cant do that and expect to be successful.

You have a point, no team has given up on a first round quarterback after just three games, of course no one trades young franchise capable, pro-bowl quarterbacks either...oops! And again, you're basing your opinion of the matter on the fact he was drafted that high, not as he was graded to be drafted. If Denver doesn't feel he is the future franchise quarterback of this team, that he was drafted too high then why should they give him a chance instead of spearhead the inevitable?

And Tebow is not and was not the top rated quarterback of his respective draft class, whereas Elway was a unanimous first overall pick, I'd say there is a huge difference.


Every draft choice is a risk no matter the person or position. However, i said it last offseason that with all the naysayers about Fairley and his attitude that i was willing to take a chance on DT rather than CB or even LB. I like Miller but he wasnt my first choice and i still think we will struggle with stopping the run.

We're going to struggle stopping the run because it's not Fox's forte! Fox has only ever fielded two defensive units in Carolina that were top ten in stopping the run, only two. Most of the time they were middle of the road or at times mediocre against the run...Fox runs a Tampa-2 'Bend Don't Break' Defense, the numbers support that theory. His defenses have always been better at pass defense - almost always in the top ten, what we'll see is a lot of sacks, turnovers, tackles for losses or big time hits, we'll be a solid defense, but he will rely on blitzing and therein causing havoc in the backfield more then outright stopping the run. I won't say that he neglects the defensive tackle position, but it's far less important IMHO to him then who he has that can cause pressure in the backfield.


All very true as well. But, we could have the next John Elway and not even know it yet. ;)

Hahahaha... Oh shit, that's funny! I'm sorry bro, but people tend to forget that Elway led us to the playoffs in only his second season, just as Big Ben did in Pittsburgh, Tebow can not even beat out a mediocre journeyman who was drafted in the fourth round and who's own team who had drafted him traded the farm and house to replace him with someone better. It's not like he's sitting behind Farve as Rodgers did, hell or Kurt Warner as Matt Leinart should have been. (So again we'll just have to disagree on this)

Could he be a franchise capable quarterback? Yes, it possible. Is is also possible that he could be a complete bust? Yes, and it's more then probable that he'll be a career backup because he doesn't suck either. The gist of what you're trying to get at is not hidden, I understand it. But then again, I don't see much of anything promising in him and I am not alone for that matter - does he need more time? I think that is unquestionably so...but I don't believe a team can bet on a possible or probable when there is a lot of warning signs pointing that he may not even be capable beyond basic fundamental transitioning at this level and a cause of concern.

;)

[Lancane]

I do.

Really? I would say that it doesn't mean anything, Tebow had very little value, not enough to garner much in the way of fair return.

But I guess we all see it differently. ;)

[Npba900]

Of course they do. But that says a lot in itself.

I don't think the Broncos really wanted to trade Orton. They could have made that deal. That, or they are really glad it didn't go through. THey were pretty fast to name Orton the starter once the trade was named to have not been finalized. There is a reason for that.

I just don't think people want to admit that Tebow is further behind than we want to admit. Jaws was very VERY adament that Orton would be the starter for the entire year if he was still on the roster, and that was at the draft back in April. He said these things after watching the game tape of Tim's three starts. Those didn't remove doubt for Jaws, it created MORE doubt.

Believe me, they limited the playbook down for Tebow. The coaches simply want to give their team teh best chance to win.

I would say that over 90% of here played HS football, and a much smaller % played college. When you are on a team, its not hard to see who is playing well, and who isn't. ITs not hard to see which players should be the starter and gives you the best chance to win. That doesn't change at the NFL level. Players know. Coaches know.

RAV imagine had Orton been traded the reality would have still been that Brady Quinn would have been the starter and TT would have been 2nd or 3rd string QB.

[NightTerror218]

RAV imagine had Orton been traded the reality would have still been that Brady Quinn would have been the starter and TT would have been 2nd or 3rd string QB.

I think EFX wants to work Tebow and bring him along slowly. That is why he is getting lots of playing time end of preseason and will be in some packages during the games. If our season is a bust we will see a lot of him to see whether we are going to go after a new QB or not. IF we do well I could see Quinn resigning and Orton chasing the big money. But with not having to designate a 2nd or 3rd string QB before games he wont say anything about who is 2nd or 3rd string.

[Northman]

8-8 is a lot closer then 3-13 buddy! ;)

And let's be honest, if that same said offense had Nolan's defense or possibly Fox's would they not have been a contender? One can argue their thoughts on the matter, but it's fair to say that more then likely we'd have been a playoff team.

Maybe, maybe not. The defensive personnel was quite bad.


We do have some issues in regards to some positions or depth at several, but the reason our depth looks so weak is not so much that it is for that matter weak, it's the fact that the roster is rather young, we have fifty-three athletes on the roster with three years or less experience - that's phenomenal, most of them have been added via the draft the past four seasons, making us a very young team in the process.

Nah, i disagree. While we are young we have a lot of "ifs" and subpar backups. Some of them have been here for a couple of seasons and havent progressed. Teams like Pitt, Bmore, NE, and Indy do a much better job at adding quality depth players and not projects like the Broncos tend to do.


I would say coaching plays a part, it's not like Fox is Harbaugh or Ryan, he's pretty much a defensive version of Reeves or Fassel, adequate and could possibly make us better, but the type that has to depend on talent more then his knowledge to succeed. And we have a capable talent base to build off from, it's not like we only had one or two talented kids like Cleveland usually does.

True.


No, that is very true...but you can't always count on a kid transcending to the next level as well. Tebow is truly a talented athlete, but that doesn't mean he is a talented quarterback. Remember Matt Jones? Rod Smith? Both had been quarterbacks and proved to be better elsewhere then the positions they originally wanted to play...look at D.J. Williams who had been a tailback!

Again, all very true.


So you're okay with taking inferior talent at the position in favor of Tebow, and instead are okay with taking capable defensive players that are not much better then those behind them?

:shocked:

Well, "claiming" that they are not much better than those behind them is just your opinion and speculation. We dont know if they are or are not. Thats the problem when drafting. For all we know Crick could be the next Suh, we just dont know. But i would rather take a shot on a position of NEED than one where we are already stocked at. You dont draft another QB if you already have 25 of them on the roster. :lol:


Tebow was not a first round graded quarterback, heck...many didn't even grade him out as a solid second round graded quarterback (he is a project) usually they have third or latter round grades, we just had a coach at the time who thought more of him then most other heads in the NFL.

True, i didnt have Tebow pegged but a 3rd rounder. But, while Tebow was trying out for different teams his stock was rising and if you believe the rumors about Buffalo wanting him in the first round than who knows. Bottom line, we took him in the first round so you have to pretty much address it as such. Simply saying "Well, i dont think he was a first rounder" doesnt hold water when you actually draft him in the first round. While i agree McD reached on a LOT of his picks it doesnt change the fact that we did in fact draft him in the first round. We drafted him with the "intention" of him being the FQB of the future in mind.


Quinn is a first round graded quarterback who was drafted as such, but is he getting a fair shot? No, so why should Tebow?

Quinn got a fair shot in Cleveland. Tebow has not.


Or better yet, why can neither first round quarterbacks beat out a journeyman fourth round pick that can't even seem to hold on to the starting position on any team he's been on?

Because Orton has the most experience out of all of them in terms of starting experience.


And Brees had a latter first round grade, he slipped into the second. Brady was as much a fluke as Terrell Davis or Rod Smith, if we're continually hoping that the butter is good at the bottom of the barrel, then we better get ready to eat a bunch of rancid shit!

Its not uncommon to have very good late round draft picks. I could go on and on with that mate. There are just as many first round failures as their are successes if not more.


Tim Couch had solid numbers his first year as did other busts such as Matt Leinart, so let's say Tebow does the same...then he get's another year. By the time your done giving these kids a chance, they've done harmed the football team because your left holding your johnson.

I like holding my johnson but im only talking about letting Tebow start for one year to see what he has. If he doesnt have it after a year than move on. Like i said, it would be easy to tell if he had progressed throughout a year or not.


Quinn is likely gone after the year, most analysts agree with that. You're expecting this to be fair, was it fair to not give Quinn a chance after we traded for him and then draft someone else? Was it fair that Quinn didn't get an honest chance to compete this year for a spot because Orton decided Miami didn't suit him?

Yes, it was fair. Again, Quinn got a chance to start in Cleveland and didnt do enough to PROVE to them that he was the guy. Tebow has not had that kind of chance in Denver. Something else to keep in mind, Quinn backed up Derek Anderson which is like Orton version 1.0 so if a team has a "capable" QB in place its not like they will get the nod to start. Quinn came in because Anderson started to suck.


Was it fair to the fans to lose Cutler and have him replaced by Orton? Is it fair that we have to settle for Orton starting even though most utterly despise his ass? It's not about fair, it's about winning and putting a winning product on the field, if Tebow and Quinn can not even beat out Orton for the starting position just on their talent alone beyond being first round selections as you so put it, then why should the team be fair and say that either deserves a shot on the field instead of drafting someone they feel is better suited?

Fair has nothing to do with it. Im looking at it from a common sense viewpoint. Denver can ill-afford to make bad decisions in the draft because of the last two years. Ive never stated that Tebow or Quinn DESERVE to start. For me its about seeing if they have what it takes to be BETTER than Orton. For you and Rav practice means everything. For me, not so much and ive played the position (i know, im sounding like Top again). Fact is, i had good practices and bad practices. I had good games and i had bad games but at the end of the day i always played better when it mattered as opposed to practice. There was no incentive for me to play a practice like it was a super bowl. But even in my first two years i sat behind a guy who had the most experience even though i was clearly better than he was.


And again, you're basing your opinion of the matter on the fact he was drafted that high, not as he was graded to be drafted. If Denver doesn't feel he is the future franchise quarterback of this team, that he was drafted too high then why should they give him a chance instead of spearhead the inevitable?

Why should they pay him 6 million? If he isnt worth a bag of salty nuts why pay him the money?


And Tebow is not and was not the top rated quarterback of his respective draft class, whereas Elway was a unanimous first overall pick, I'd say there is a huge difference.

Oh sure, potential wise its like night and day. But Tebow was still touted pretty good going into that draft. The last week leading up to that draft his stock exploded which made me cringe.


We're going to struggle stopping the run because it's not Fox's forte! Fox has only ever fielded two defensive units in Carolina that were top ten in stopping the run, only two. Most of the time they were middle of the road or at times mediocre against the run...Fox runs a Tampa-2 'Bend Don't Break' Defense, the numbers support that theory. His defenses have always been better at pass defense - almost always in the top ten, what we'll see is a lot of sacks, turnovers, tackles for losses or big time hits, we'll be a solid defense, but he will rely on blitzing and therein causing havoc in the backfield more then outright stopping the run. I won't say that he neglects the defensive tackle position, but it's far less important IMHO to him then who he has that can cause pressure in the backfield.

Against teams like Buffalo and Seattle. Yea, we will have a field day. Against teams like Indy, NE, Pitt, etc. Not so much. They have quick releases and much smarter QB's. A team like Pitt will just run it down our throat all day and thats not good.


Hahahaha... Oh shit, that's funny! I'm sorry bro, but people tend to forget that Elway led us to the playoffs in only his second season, just as Big Ben did in Pittsburgh, Tebow can not even beat out a mediocre journeyman who was drafted in the fourth round and who's own team who had drafted him traded the farm and house to replace him with someone better. It's not like he's sitting behind Farve as Rodgers did, hell or Kurt Warner as Matt Leinart should have been. (So again we'll just have to disagree on this)

Uh, i never forget anything that Elway did mate. He is my idol in terms of how i played the game in HS. He's my favorite player of alltime and contrary to belief FAR BETTER THAN JOE MONTANA. But, thats my own opinion. While i truly dont believe there will ever be another John Elway my initial point was that Tebow can certainly be a FQB just like he can be the next Eric Crouch. We just dont know yet.


Could he be a franchise capable quarterback? Yes, it possible.

AH HA! Got you. So your saying there is a possibility!

http://www.usdemocrazy.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dumb-Dumber_l.jpg


Is is also possible that he could be a complete bust? Yes, and it's more then probable that he'll be a career backup because he doesn't suck either. The gist of what you're trying to get at is not hidden, I understand it. But then again, I don't see much of anything promising in him and I am not alone for that matter - does he need more time? I think that is unquestionably so...but I don't believe a team can bet on a possible or probable when there is a lot of warning signs pointing that he may not even be capable beyond basic fundamental transitioning at this level and a cause of concern.

;)

Well, the only thing i will say to this is that even if Denver drafts Luck or Barkley its not like they will turn water into wine overnight. It will take more than 3 GAMES to see what they have as well. ;)

[Northman]

You know what Lan? **** you.

Your making me type way to ******* much today. lmao

Good debating and discussion though. Im enjoying it. :)

[BORDERLINE]

Just dumb reporters that know nothing of what they speak. He quoted the yahoo sports story like it was as legit as they come. Seriously we Bronco fans watch the games we seen Tebow you are not going to say he is the fourth best QB on a 4-12 team when Tebow is definitely better than SF's QB , SEA QB's, MIA QB's, the Broncos 4th is better then the 9+ QB's they carry. Is Merril Hodge gonna come out and say Charlie Whitehurst is above Tebow and we are gonna believe that.

Get outta here

And i'm all for seperation of Church/Politics and Football. If a player believes in whatever as long as football is not involved I don't give a s***

[Ravage!!!]

Well, "claiming" that they are not much better than those behind them is just your opinion and speculation. We dont know if they are or are not. Thats the problem when drafting. For all we know Crick could be the next Suh, we just dont know. But i would rather take a shot on a position of NEED than one where we are already stocked at. You dont draft another QB if you already have 25 of them on the roster. :lol:
Keeping 25 players that aren't capable isn't any better...especially when its the most important position in professional sports. If you have three QBs that aren't going to be TOP of the league, and you have a shot at a guy that you feel confident has a MUCH better chance at being that guy, you pull the trigger on him. You don't sit around with mediocre QBs, and THEN hope to have another shot at at top QB. Look how long it took teams San Fran, Dallas, Pitt, Buffalo and Denver to find their top QBs again. These are teams that went to MULTIBLE Super Bowls within a decade.. but didn't go back after losing the QB (obviously pittsburgh found theirs again, but took them 30 years).

I don't care if we have 25 ducks on the roster at QB. If we don't have a guy that is considered to be, or looked destined to be, an Elite QB in the NFL.... the it ABSOLUTELY is a position of "need."



Fair has nothing to do with it. Im looking at it from a common sense viewpoint.
it really IS common sense to say/see that if you can't do it in shorts when no one is hitting you, then there is no reason to believe that you can go out in an NFL gameday and do what you need to be done. I don't believe it's common sense to believe that you magically change who you are simply because now the speed is going 100%.


Denver can ill-afford to make bad decisions in the draft because of the last two years. Ive never stated that Tebow or Quinn DESERVE to start. For me its about seeing if they have what it takes to be BETTER than Orton. For you and Rav practice means everything. For me, not so much and ive played the position (i know, im sounding like Top again). Fact is, i had good practices and bad practices. I had good games and i had bad games but at the end of the day i always played better when it mattered as opposed to practice. There was no incentive for me to play a practice like it was a super bowl. But even in my first two years i sat behind a guy who had the most experience even though i was clearly better than he was.
Dude, I played QB in HS and College. I know that everyone has good days and bad days, and ANYONE that is competitive puts more effort out in game days. Thats not unique to you, me, nor TEbow. Thats just natural for everyone. The point is, there are a LOT more practices, a lot more routes run, and a lot more passes thrown during training sessions than there is on game day. The coaches, and players, know if you are ready because of PRACTICE.

No one practices poorly, and goes out and does well on game day. If they do, they aren't putting the effort out in practice. If thats the case, they aren't leaders. Everyone knows that Tebow is putting the EFFORT out in practice. Thats who he is. If he's putting the effort out that we know he is, and its proving to everyone that he's not ready....then game day isnt' going to show something different.


Why should they pay him 6 million? If he isnt worth a bag of salty nuts why pay him the money?
I don't think we were ever going to simply release a 1st round QB that has the fan-dom that Tebow has surrounding him, after one year.


AH HA! Got you. So your saying there is a possibility!
:lol: Yeah, I guess ANYTHING is possible ;)



Well, the only thing i will say to this is that even if Denver drafts Luck or Barkley its not like they will turn water into wine overnight. It will take more than 3 GAMES to see what they have as well. ;)

:beer: Yeah, but Im glad our coaches use more than just those three games to judge the talent on the team!

[NightTerror218]

Keeping 25 players that aren't capable isn't any better...especially when its the most important position in professional sports. If you have three QBs that aren't going to be TOP of the league, and you have a shot at a guy that you feel confident has a MUCH better chance at being that guy, you pull the trigger on him. You don't sit around with mediocre QBs, and THEN hope to have another shot at at top QB. Look how long it took teams San Fran, Dallas, Pitt, Buffalo and Denver to find their top QBs again. These are teams that went to MULTIBLE Super Bowls within a decade.. but didn't go back after losing the QB (obviously pittsburgh found theirs again, but took them 30 years).

I don't care if we have 25 ducks on the roster at QB. If we don't have a guy that is considered to be, or looked destined to be, an Elite QB in the NFL.... the it ABSOLUTELY is a position of "need."



it really IS common sense to say/see that if you can't do it in shorts when no one is hitting you, then there is no reason to believe that you can go out in an NFL gameday and do what you need to be done. I don't believe it's common sense to believe that you magically change who you are simply because now the speed is going 100%.


Dude, I played QB in HS and College. I know that everyone has good days and bad days, and ANYONE that is competitive puts more effort out in game days. Thats not unique to you, me, nor TEbow. Thats just natural for everyone. The point is, there are a LOT more practices, a lot more routes run, and a lot more passes thrown during training sessions than there is on game day. The coaches, and players, know if you are ready because of PRACTICE.

No one practices poorly, and goes out and does well on game day. If they do, they aren't putting the effort out in practice. If thats the case, they aren't leaders. Everyone knows that Tebow is putting the EFFORT out in practice. Thats who he is. If he's putting the effort out that we know he is, and its proving to everyone that he's not ready....then game day isnt' going to show something different.


I don't think we were ever going to simply release a 1st round QB that has the fan-dom that Tebow has surrounding him, after one year.


:lol: Yeah, I guess ANYTHING is possible ;)



:beer: Yeah, but Im glad our coaches use more than just those three games to judge the talent on the team!


If you have an average QB and an offense that is doing fine but a defense with major holes. You dont always "pull trigger" on the QB that could be that QB. KNowing EFX they will draft best guy overall on the board or best instant impact player and then pick one up later in the draft, given they can not get the ones they want off the bat.

[Ravage!!!]

If you have an average QB and an offense that is doing fine but a defense with major holes. You dont always "pull trigger" on the QB that could be that QB. KNowing EFX they will draft best guy overall on the board or best instant impact player and then pick one up later in the draft, given they can not get the ones they want off the bat.

We don't know where we'll be drafting, so its hard to speculate other than to say that if we are in the top 10 of the draft, I'm betting we make a move on one of the top 3 QBs in the draft. You have an "average" QB, and you are high enough in the draft to take a franchise QB, you do it. There is no loss there for you. Its MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to find steals for other positions on the field than it is to find a "steal" at QB. The QB position is just far toooo important to simply ignore.

If we are high enough, we take a QB. There is no loss in making that move. With the rookie scale, we can take a QB with hopes that he truly is the kind of QB we are looking for. If he can't beat out Tebow because he sucks, or because Tebow has progressed enough to prove something... then you still ahve a young QB to sit behing Tebow. I mean, the Patriots have two VERY good back-ups. The kid from Arkansas is someone we should have been drafting in the 3rd round.

[NightTerror218]

We don't know where we'll be drafting, so its hard to speculate other than to say that if we are in the top 10 of the draft, I'm betting we make a move on one of the top 3 QBs in the draft. You have an "average" QB, and you are high enough in the draft to take a franchise QB, you do it. There is no loss there for you. Its MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to find steals for other positions on the field than it is to find a "steal" at QB. The QB position is just far toooo important to simply ignore.

If we are high enough, we take a QB. There is no loss in making that move. With the rookie scale, we can take a QB with hopes that he truly is the kind of QB we are looking for. If he can't beat out Tebow because he sucks, or because Tebow has progressed enough to prove something... then you still ahve a young QB to sit behing Tebow. I mean, the Patriots have two VERY good back-ups. The kid from Arkansas is someone we should have been drafting in the 3rd round.

IF we are high enough I do see us doing that, but I think we will be in middle of road this year. I also think EFX will draft top 3 QBs or go best defensive player on the board. I want to see a badass FB drafted too.

[Lancane]

You know North, I am rather surprised we haven't been bitched at for making super long-ass posts from anyone on the board yet!
:lol:


Maybe, maybe not. The defensive personnel was quite bad.

The defensive personnel we had in 07' and 08'? Yes, I agree. But if Shanahan would have had Nolan or Fox, then it would have been a whole other story.


Nah, i disagree. While we are young we have a lot of "ifs" and subpar backups. Some of them have been here for a couple of seasons and havent progressed. Teams like Pitt, Bmore, NE, and Indy do a much better job at adding quality depth players and not projects like the Broncos tend to do.

I think we're starting to see Denver take part in the more dynamic aspect of drafting not only decent starters, but better talent. I am far from impressed with McDaniels' drafts, but if we look at the last five, we've seen Denver improve vastly in that aspect. Unfortunately he damaged and depleted the roster so badly in the process that it's left us void of quality depth as well - so it's very debatable.


Well, "claiming" that they are not much better than those behind them is just your opinion and speculation. We dont know if they are or are not. Thats the problem when drafting. For all we know Crick could be the next Suh, we just dont know. But i would rather take a shot on a position of NEED than one where we are already stocked at. You dont draft another QB if you already have 25 of them on the roster. :lol:

Of course it's my opinion North, I am not a deity! I can only go based off my own thoughts and distinctions on any player in the draft. What gives me some validity and credibility isn't my time at Cook & Cook Sports, my time under Coach Saban at Michigan State, any of my coaching positions over the years...it's simply my opinion and the rate of success in that aspect - since 2005 when I first got on the boards or became a so-called draftnik, I have been hitting about 70% on my first round choices for the Broncos (Cutler, Moss, Moreno, Tebow and Miller) I've also been wrong about (Clady, Thomas and Ayers) so I am just as prone to mistakes. Where I really standout has been in my assessment of certain positions, particularly at quarterback, and that I would say was all from my time as a safety. I see things...whether people agree or not is up to them, but since 95' I have named about 90% of the top quarterbacks who would be busts or flops at the next level and again I am prone to make mistakes, I thought Schaub would be an utter failure in the NFL, now he is one of the most prolific passers in the league! I am unsure of Tebow, he screams bust in so many ways that it's not funny, but then his upside, his demeanor and so forth has me hoping to be wrong.

As I stated earlier I understand your point, that it makes sense to build around the position, but then again I also believe that you add the best player that gives you a chance to win and win more often rather then just immediately.


True, i didnt have Tebow pegged but a 3rd rounder. But, while Tebow was trying out for different teams his stock was rising and if you believe the rumors about Buffalo wanting him in the first round than who knows. Bottom line, we took him in the first round so you have to pretty much address it as such. Simply saying "Well, i dont think he was a first rounder" doesnt hold water when you actually draft him in the first round. While i agree McD reached on a LOT of his picks it doesnt change the fact that we did in fact draft him in the first round. We drafted him with the "intention" of him being the FQB of the future in mind.

Tebow was graded as a late second to mid third round pick, giving a small window of error. As to whether Buffalo wanted him, that will always be debatable, they don't seem to have a clue about what they do want! And just because a kid is drafted in the first doesn't mean it raises the issues that most have with him, nor does it eliminate the position where he should have gone. Look at Matt Jones, Chris Henry, Heyward-Bey to name but a few. And we also have to account that it was a different regime who drafted him, no regime owes loyalty to the players brought in or drafted by another, especially one that so drastically failed, nor does Bowlen owe any loyalty to Tebow, because it's about winning nothing else.


Quinn got a fair shot in Cleveland. Tebow has not.
It's not a fair shot when your playing for such an inept coaching staff! :laugh:


Because Orton has the most experience out of all of them in terms of starting experience.

That is debatable my friend, especially given the mediocrity the fans have had to endure, it's not unheard of for a solid prospect to come in and unseat the veterans on the roster and not simply because of starting experience. If that is the case then Elway should have not started before DeBerg!


Its not uncommon to have very good late round draft picks. I could go on and on with that mate. There are just as many first round failures as their are successes if not more.

Agreed, I have long stated that there is considerable talent in the latter part of the first and early in the second, but it's far more uncommon for quarterbacks out of the first, what I am getting at is say that we need a franchise capable quarterback but none available worth the pick? Do we reach and take someone of considerably less talent? Trade everything to get up to a position to draft a better prospect? That's why as Shanahan said, "When you are in position to draft a franchise quarterback you don't hesitate" and I believe that 110%, even though I am defensive minded myself, I believe that quarterback is the key to success.


I like holding my johnson but im only talking about letting Tebow start for one year to see what he has. If he doesnt have it after a year than move on. Like i said, it would be easy to tell if he had progressed throughout a year or not.

I should have known! :lol:

What you're stating makes absolute sense, but it's a fan's perspective, coaching brings a whole other mindset into the mix, because you say evaluate...but what if they decide they need more time to do so? We watch as the ships sinks while the damn hull is on fire?


Yes, it was fair. Again, Quinn got a chance to start in Cleveland and didnt do enough to PROVE to them that he was the guy. Tebow has not had that kind of chance in Denver. Something else to keep in mind, Quinn backed up Derek Anderson which is like Orton version 1.0 so if a team has a "capable" QB in place its not like they will get the nod to start. Quinn came in because Anderson started to suck.

Again I point to their coaching staff and laugh about fair, but the point is not lost to me.


Fair has nothing to do with it. Im looking at it from a common sense viewpoint. Denver can ill-afford to make bad decisions in the draft because of the last two years. Ive never stated that Tebow or Quinn DESERVE to start. For me its about seeing if they have what it takes to be BETTER than Orton. For you and Rav practice means everything. For me, not so much and ive played the position (i know, im sounding like Top again). Fact is, i had good practices and bad practices. I had good games and i had bad games but at the end of the day i always played better when it mattered as opposed to practice. There was no incentive for me to play a practice like it was a super bowl. But even in my first two years i sat behind a guy who had the most experience even though i was clearly better than he was.
If you can not even throw accurately or with more precision during practice when there is not a shitload of 275lbs. plus defenders rushing to rip your head off and shit down your throat, then how can you do it when they are?


Why should they pay him 6 million? If he isnt worth a bag of salty nuts why pay him the money?

His contract was guaranteed (all but bonuses), why cut him and still have to pay instead of keeping him and hoping that if he can not be a franchise capable quarterback that he can at least be a capable backup and trick quarterback in certain offensive plays?


Oh sure, potential wise its like night and day. But Tebow was still touted pretty good going into that draft. The last week leading up to that draft his stock exploded which made me cringe.

Tebow was highly touted because he was a cash cow wherever he landed! Kid's were rushing to signings and paying hundreds of dollars for his damn autograph, the shit wasn't free. He's made a hit sports documentary, published a best selling biography, his jersey sales are through the roof. Look at the question above this one, why keep him and pay his contract...because I guarantee you that Bowlen has made more money off Tebow then what we'll end up paying him before his rookie contract is up, that is another reason to keep him.


Against teams like Buffalo and Seattle. Yea, we will have a field day. Against teams like Indy, NE, Pitt, etc. Not so much. They have quick releases and much smarter QB's. A team like Pitt will just run it down our throat all day and thats not good.

Not really an answer to what I said, but okay...it's just Fox's forte, and I don't see him changing much on either side of the ball. We'll never likely have the top defense, but we'll always be capable to be a top ten.


Uh, i never forget anything that Elway did mate. He is my idol in terms of how i played the game in HS. He's my favorite player of alltime and contrary to belief FAR BETTER THAN JOE MONTANA. But, thats my own opinion. While i truly dont believe there will ever be another John Elway my initial point was that Tebow can certainly be a FQB just like he can be the next Eric Crouch. We just dont know yet.

I agree that Elway was better then Montana, and understand the other...just I doubt it, highly doubt it - but that is me.


AH HA! Got you. So your saying there is a possibility!
Of course, there is also a chance that I will accidentally go on a drinking binge, end up and Buckingham Palace and wake up married to the Queen! Or even likelier end up sleeping with Jwow and Snookie from Jersey Shore only to catch whatever they have and have my manhood fall off!
:laugh:


Well, the only thing i will say to this is that even if Denver drafts Luck or Barkley its not like they will turn water into wine overnight. It will take more than 3 GAMES to see what they have as well. ;)
Agreed, but there is also a chance, a far better one that their presence alone on the field is enough to raise the spirit of the fans and be accountable for one or two wins because of their abilities!

;)

[Lancane]

IF we are high enough I do see us doing that, but I think we will be in middle of road this year. I also think EFX will draft top 3 QBs or go best defensive player on the board. I want to see a badass FB drafted too.

I see Denver drafting a quarterback sometime in this draft, period. Whether it be in the first or later I think people will argue because where they are on the Tebow debate. If they can not get one of the top quarterbacks then I believe as you do that they'll go best defensive player - don't see them going offensively in the first unless for a quarterback.

You mean like Halahuni of Oregon State? I'd love to see him in a Broncos' uniform! I'd be happy with Ramsay of North Carolina as well though.

[Elevation inc]

I see Denver drafting a quarterback sometime in this draft, period. Whether it be in the first or later I think people will argue because where they are on the Tebow debate. If they can not get one of the top quarterbacks then I believe as you do that they'll go best defensive player - don't see them going offensively in the first unless for a quarterback.

You mean like Halahuni of Oregon State? I'd love to see him in a Broncos' uniform! I'd be happy with Ramsay of North Carolina as well though.


I would also be fine with a Qb in rd 2-4.....nick foles from arizona etc.....tebow will probally be the guy next year but that doesnt mean he shouldnt have to beat out competition next year as well.....

[NightTerror218]

I see Denver drafting a quarterback sometime in this draft, period. Whether it be in the first or later I think people will argue because where they are on the Tebow debate. If they can not get one of the top quarterbacks then I believe as you do that they'll go best defensive player - don't see them going offensively in the first unless for a quarterback.

You mean like Halahuni of Oregon State? I'd love to see him in a Broncos' uniform! I'd be happy with Ramsay of North Carolina as well though.

I dont see that happening unless it is a top notch QB. If anything they will resign Quinn and call it good with Tebow as backup. They will prob have Weber on practice quad too.

[Lancane]

I dont see that happening unless it is a top notch QB. If anything they will resign Quinn and call it good with Tebow as backup. They will prob have Weber on practice quad too.

And Quinn would re-sign why? I mean that is a pretty big F'n leap right there for anyone to even think possible...especially knowing he's been jerked around by this organization, like he plans to give us the time of day after this season!

I wouldn't count on him returning, not when he'll go elsewhere and seriously compete, it's asinine to think he wants to return let alone sign a new contract when he knows the deal, that in doing so he's more then likely becoming a backup for the term of the contract because of favoritism, also knowing that the brass is interested in drafting someone which is obvious from repeated statements until they find a franchise quarterback.

We'll be drafting a quarterback, the odds have gone up - it's where that is the issue. And you can bet your ass they'll be adding another veteran as well, even if for nothing more then pre-season depth.

[Lancane]

I would also be fine with a Qb in rd 2-4.....nick foles from arizona etc.....tebow will probally be the guy next year but that doesnt mean he shouldnt have to beat out competition next year as well.....

Nick Foles would be a solid choice in the second or Ryan Lindley if his stock doesn't skyrocket at some point before the draft. But again, if Denver has the ability for one of the top three, don't be surprised if they pull the trigger. If Tebow is the future, I say let him earn the damn job, if he doesn't then thank goodness we have someone better at the position.

;)

[Canmore]

Nick Foles would be a solid choice in the second or Ryan Lindley if his stock doesn't skyrocket at some point before the draft. But again, if Denver has the ability for one of the top three, don't be surprised if they pull the trigger. If Tebow is the future, I say let him earn the damn job, if he doesn't then thank goodness we have someone better at the position.

;)

By all accounts this is going to be quarterback rich draft in 2012. Not much of a college football follower. Watch a little Pac 12 because I'm in Oregon and went to college there. I expect Denver is going to take a quarterback early. Probably the first round if we pick where I expect we will. No knock on Tebow, but I expect him to have some competition.

[Watchthemiddle]

I have read through a couple of pages of this now after giving it a few days since telling BC it was uncalled for and have a few suggestions.

If your going to evaluate TT's play, then evaluate it.

If your going to say you are evaluating his play and then in some snarky remark bring religion into it, then don't say it.

If your going to evaluate TT's play based off of his "cult following" then you aren't truely evaluating TT's play...you are looking at his play because his "cult following" annoys you.

You can't say one thing, then another, combine the two, and then say he can't play.

Leave it on the field.

The thing that led me to thinking about this was Kurt Warner...now a PREACHER and shares the gospel with whoever wants to listen. NO one bashed him while playing...no one criticized him during a game when an opposing player was laid out on the field motionless and he knelt beside them and prayed for them DURING a game.

So to me the religious JAB is a cheap shot. Those who do it know they are going to stir the pot...especially when it comes to Tebow. Is it okay to do it for him and not Warner? Is your reasoning because Warner was a Super Bowl winnerr and TT is not? SO because Dawkins, Warner, etc are studs in the NFl we won't touch their beliefs because they are proven, but when it comes to TT we will because he is unproven.

All I ask is evaluate TT for his on the field performance. If the "cult following" annoys you, then so be it...I can put money on the fact that the ignorance from the other side annoys the "cult following"

I have no problem discussing politics, religion or whatever in the midst of a football forum, but if you are evaluating a player, don't let your own views of his FANS make up your decison.

[Ravage!!!]

NO one bashed him while playing...no one criticized him during a game when an opposing player was laid out on the field motionless and he knelt beside them and prayed for them DURING a game.

This is where you are completely off. Warner and his religion was always a topic. It was constantly brought up, because HE brought it up. His WIFE brought it up. His wife would call in to the local radio shows in St. Louis, and rant and rave about the criticisms that Kurt was getting from them.

I'm sorry you don't remember this, but you are incorrect by even suggesting that Tebow is the ONLY person to have religion brought up as a topic when related to a player. The thing is, it wouldn't be brought up if the player, themselves, didn't bring it up so much. They bring their religion to the forefront, thus put it first in the line of fire.

[Watchthemiddle]

This is where you are completely off. Warner and his religion was always a topic. It was constantly brought up, because HE brought it up. His WIFE brought it up. His wife would call in to the local radio shows in St. Louis, and rant and rave about the criticisms that Kurt was getting from them.

I'm sorry you don't remember this, but you are incorrect by even suggesting that Tebow is the ONLY person to have religion brought up as a topic when related to a player. The thing is, it wouldn't be brought up if the player, themselves, didn't bring it up so much. They bring their religion to the forefront, thus put it first in the line of fire.

So this brings us back to square ONE....WHY...why bring it up?? Why make a big deal out of it? What in the world does it have to do with playing football?

Do Christians bash the agnostics, athiests, buddhist's, muslims...etc? Does that ever come up in a discussion when talking about a players performance? No. Shoot, you can kill dogs, beat your wife, have 23 kids from 23 different women and no one talks as much about it as they do if someone wears their faith on their sleeve. And on top of that, make $$100's of millions of dollars for being the bad boy.

And that is the bigger issue with things going downhill in this country......Persecute the basis of this county, and it will go downhill. It's happening everywhere...schools, courthouses, the work place, and in sports. It's PC and tolerant to be everything but...but if you are a Christian your fair game. You want to marry someone of the same sex, well everyone else MUST be TOLERANT of it. P&R discussion for sure.

[Ravage!!!]

So this brings us back to square ONE....WHY...why bring it up?? Why make a big deal out of it? What in the world does it have to do with playing football?

Because the player does. Let me give an example, and see if you can see what I mean. This isn't meant to attack anyone's religion, or make fun of any religion. Just meant to make a point with the use of another extreme example.

But lets say a player LOVED hamburgers... I mean LOVED them. Now, if he just loved them and ate them, there would be no problem. BUT... if said player would make comments like "Yeah, we played great today.. thank goodness for the hamburgers." "Today was a rough challenge, but I think I had the right hamburgers before the game."

Do you think the analyst and commentators would mention hamburgers when talkign about this player??? What does it have to do with football? Nothing, but the PLAYER is the one that keeps bringing attention to the hamburgers. If the player is the one that constantly brings attention to his love for hamburgers, mentions the hamburgers, talks about the hamburgers, and brings it to the forefront about his passion for hamburgers..... then who is the one thats REALLY bringing up hamburgers??

You can change HAMBURGERS to any religion, faith, love, sexual orientation, or color.. and the SAME thing would happen. The more the player brings it to the front, the more its put under attack. Thats just the way it is. If you don't want your love'd ones to be hit by the incoming bullets, I would suggest not putting them in front of you.


Do Christians bash the agnostics, athiests, buddhist's, muslims...etc?
Oh HELL yes. I'm sure there are a ton of agnostics, atheists, buddhists and muslims in the NFL. However, how many of them say "hail to satan" after every interview? If they did, do you think that they MIGHT be attacked for such comments???

If those that "beat their wives" would comment in interviews and/or write books about "how to beat your wife".... do you think that it MIGHT be mentioned??

It has NOTHING to do with the "religion" itself. NOTHING. THis "poor us, the christians are being attacked" junk is just getting old. The truth is, for every action there is a reaction. People automatically push back, and that goes on all levels.

Look at this message board, as an example. People don't dislike Tebow, but we all know that the over-blown, over-exaggerated, over-stated, over-hyped, and constant threads about everything Tebow (made by the most devoted Tebow followers) made people SICK of Tebow. People were having Tebow shoved down their throat, and as a result, PUKED on him.

Look at topscribe. I think he single handedly made people completely HATE Orton on this message board because he was always sure to PUMP Orton up to much higher levels than any reasonable person would accept. As a result, people reacted by PULLING at Orton to bring him down to earth. The more top tried to carry Orton to the top of a peak, the more people would yank and tackle him. Why? Because people got sick of hearing how "good" Orton was. Top got sick of hearing people say how "bad" he was. The more he heard that, the harder he tried to push Orton to the top, and thus, more people jumped onto the pile.

BUT THE POINT of the article was that those that criticize Tebow, or say something negative about him, are constantly ACCUSED of being "anti-christian." As if his faith has a SINGLE thing to do with it. In fact, I hear MUCH MUCH more people complaining that those that don't like him, or say something negative about him, only do so because of his religion than ANYONE saying something negative about his religious beliefs. Its as if people just can't conceive the idea that there is anything negative to say, so it HAS to be about his religion.

I compared it to the "race card" in another post, and think thats the best comparison. Its a made up bias because it appears to take away from teh validity of the criticizer by making them out to be some kind of antireligious zealot.