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Denver Native (Carol)
11-30-2008, 10:06 PM
http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/broncos.jets.favre.2.876786.html

Cutler Is Most Productive Throwing Short

Written by Reggie Rivers, CBS4 Broncos Insider

DENVER (CBS4) ― Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler delivered one of his best performances of the season mostly because he took what the Jets' defense was giving him rather than forcing his throws down the field.

Broadcaster Rich Gannon aptly described the problem late in the 3rd quarter when Cutler scrambled to his right and then threw a completion about 20 yards down the field into a crowd of green jerseys. Fortunately, it was caught by Broncos tight end Tony Scheffler, but Gannon said, "Jay Cutler has a tough time giving up on a play because of his arm strength and his athleticism, but he shouldn't have made this throw. This is a crazy throw … This is one of those 'don't throw it, don't throw it, oh, good throw.'"

For weeks, Cutler has been launching balls down the field to receivers who are well covered, while ignoring open running backs and tight ends underneath. The worst example was the game against the Raiders last week when Cutler completed only 43 percent of his passes and kept going long when he should have been throwing short.

This is a common malady for talented young quarterbacks. When you're a kid dreaming about becoming an NFL signal caller, you don't visualize yourself throwing 5-yard check-down passes to running backs.

When you dream, you dream about making passes that require every bit of your athletic ability, and they're throws that only a handful of people on the planet are capable of making. If you think about Tiger Woods in golf, one of the characteristics that makes him so dominating is that he is capable of putting his aggression in the bag and just play conservatively when he has a lead. He'll put the ball in the fairway and make safe shot after safe shot.

That's a very difficult thing for talented athletes to do, and Cutler has struggled with that this season. He loves to thread the needle between defenders to make impossible plays. He loves to launch a back-shoulder pass to a covered receiver streaking down the sideline with the safety closing in on him. Those are the passes that really challenge Cutler's ability, and those are the throws that give him the emotional satisfaction of making plays.

But Cutler has to learn that he can't swing for the fences every time. In order to be great, he has to be willing to make the simple short throws that don't require great ability. It doesn't take much talent to dump the ball off to a back or tight end -- the average high school quarterback can make the throw -- but takes an incredible amount of discipline for an NFL quarterback to settle for this easy completion.

Proven stars like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have mastered this skill, and Cutler showed great improvement in this area Sunday. He made good use of his tight ends in the short passing game: Tony Scheffler led the Broncos with 7 catches for 90 yards and Daniel Graham finished with 6 catches for 59 yards.

In fact, the only time Cutler showed a lack of discipline, it cost him. In the third quarter, he was scrambling in the red zone on a 3rd and 13 play, but rather than throwing the ball away and bringing on Matt Prater to kick the field goal, Cutler tried to make the heroic throw, across his body, into traffic and it was picked off by the Jets in the end zone.

There's no doubt about Cutler's ability -- he is a remarkable talent with a rocket arm and incredible vision. But he won't become a great NFL quarterback until he proves that he has mastered the discipline of simply taking take the easy throws that the defense is giving rather than trying to force plays down the field.

Sunday was a much better effort. Cutler connected on 63 percent of his passes for 357 yards and 2 touchdowns. It was an impressive performance that he needs to replicate week after week.

Northman
11-30-2008, 10:16 PM
What i liked was that he actually went to the middle this week unlike last week. HUGE difference.

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11-30-2008, 10:23 PM
The reason Rich Gannon said that is because he was going by his own
limitations. Gannon could never make a throw like that. The last thing I want,
and the last thing Shanny wants (because he said as much), is for Cutler to
become another safe-throw QB.

Yes, you go the path of least resistance most of the time, as Cutler did in
this game. However, when a play has got to be made, and it is one of those
throws that Gannon couldn't make it, then Cutler needs to throw it . . .
because he can.

The Broncos had a QB whom they were trying to get to play a nice, safe
ballgame. But that wasn't enough, they found, so they drafted a once-in-a-
generation (IMO) talent. So now they want him to play a nice, safe ballgame?

Maybe, then, we should have kept Plummer and used the pick we wasted
on Cutler to draft a RB or a DT?

Frankly, Reggie has a higher opinion of Gannon as a color man than I do. I
wish Gannon would go into insurance or something so I wouldn't have to
listen to him on Sundays. The guy drove me nuts. :tsk:

-----

girler
11-30-2008, 10:38 PM
Frankly, Reggie has a higher opinion of Gannon as a color man than I do. I
wish Gannon would go into insurance or something so I wouldn't have to
listen to him on Sundays. The guy drove me nuts. :tsk:

-----

He also couldn't say "athleticism" to save his butt, but he tried and tried! :laugh:

Bronco4ever
11-30-2008, 11:00 PM
I laughed so hard when Gannon said that, although when I settled down I realized how dumb of a comment it was. Gannon should have kept his mouth shut. If anything, that throw helped me remember why Jay is the leader of this team. I would rather have a quarterback confident in his abilities than one who is too scared to mess up.

hamrob
11-30-2008, 11:09 PM
I love Jay...but I do wish he'd play more games like he did today. Look for the TE's and the 2nd and 3rd receivers. Take what the defense gives you...that doesn't make you conservative...it makes you smart...ala Joe Montana, Troy Aikman & Tom Brady. Hmmm...those guys were and are pretty good...aren't they? Quit zoning in on Marshall all the time...thinking he's superman...because he's not!

Broncos Mtnman
11-30-2008, 11:14 PM
I think Reggie is off on this one.

6 of Jay's passes were for 20+ yards and a 7th was for 19 yards.

As far as Gannon goes, this tool made the statement that the Broncos offensive line was so strong because it had Alex Gibbs as their coach. Any jock who makes stuff up to try to sound like he knows what he's talking about doesn't hold any clout with me.

:coffee:

TXBRONC
11-30-2008, 11:32 PM
The reason Rich Gannon said that is because he was going by his own
limitations. Gannon could never make a throw like that. The last thing I want,
and the last thing Shanny wants (because he said as much), is for Cutler to
become another safe-throw QB.

Yes, you go the path of least resistance most of the time, as Cutler did in
this game. However, when a play has got to be made, and it is one of those
throws that Gannon couldn't make it, then Cutler needs to throw it . . .
because he can.

The Broncos had a QB whom they were trying to get to play a nice, safe
ballgame. But that wasn't enough, they found, so they drafted a once-in-a-
generation (IMO) talent. So now they want him to play a nice, safe ballgame?

Maybe, then, we should have kept Plummer and used the pick we wasted
on Cutler to draft a RB or a DT?

Frankly, Reggie has a higher opinion of Gannon as a color man than I do. I
wish Gannon would go into insurance or something so I wouldn't have to
listen to him on Sundays. The guy drove me nuts. :tsk:

-----

That's exactly what I thought when Gannon made that observation. Yeah it's throw he wouldn't attempt because he never could put that kind of velocity on a pass.

TXBRONC
11-30-2008, 11:36 PM
I think Reggie is off on this one.

6 of Jay's passes were for 20+ yards and a 7th was for 19 yards.

As far as Gannon goes, this tool made the statement that the Broncos offensive line was so strong because it had Alex Gibbs as their coach. Any jock who makes stuff up to try to sound like he knows what he's talking about doesn't hold any clout with me.

:coffee:

Of the offensive linemen we have now only Ben Hamilton has had time with Gibbs.

Lonestar
11-30-2008, 11:48 PM
I think it is spot on..

Being able to make that bomb throw time after time is nice.. But until we get another 2 fast Eddies on the team it is not possible to do and win consistently..

I'd rather have him dink and dunk the defense into tomorrow and then drop a couple of bombs in their laps for scores..

When they have to defend the entire field not just the deep ball, then they make mistakes..

Being able to make that throw is great, having to do so all the time is not..

Keep the defense off balance and the mistakes go WAY down..

Broncos Mtnman
11-30-2008, 11:58 PM
Of the offensive linemen we have now only Ben Hamilton has had time with Gibbs.

Exactly my point.

Gannon's an idiot, but what do you expect from an ex-Raider?

:lol:

TXBRONC
12-01-2008, 12:03 AM
Exactly my point.

Gannon's an idiot, but what do you expect from an ex-Raider?

:lol:


What do I expect from an ex-Raider? Not much.:laugh:

ikillz0mbies
12-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Well...don't blast me for this but I'd rather listen to Rich Gannon than Randy Cross. Anyway, Gannon did make a good point on how Cutler drifts backwards too much in the pocket and he should step up in the pocket more when passing.

topscribe
12-01-2008, 12:20 AM
Well...don't blast me for this but I'd rather listen to Rich Gannon than Randy Cross. Anyway, Gannon did make a good point on how Cutler drifts backwards too much in the pocket and he should step up in the pocket more when passing.

That habit might come from the fact that there never was much of a pocket at Vandy. :laugh:

That was just about the sole good comment coming from Gannon, IMO.

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CrazyHorse
12-01-2008, 01:48 AM
I love Jay...but I do wish he'd play more games like he did today. Look for the TE's and the 2nd and 3rd receivers. Take what the defense gives you...that doesn't make you conservative...it makes you smart...ala Joe Montana, Troy Aikman & Tom Brady. Hmmm...those guys were and are pretty good...aren't they? Quit zoning in on Marshall all the time...thinking he's superman...because he's not!

I don't want Cutler to be like any of the QB's you listed. They're all good but overrated.

sneakers
12-01-2008, 01:54 AM
I think most QB's are more effective throwing short....I bet you I could complete 65% of my passes if I only had to throw five yard slants and curls all day. :shocked:

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 02:51 AM
The reason Rich Gannon said that is because he was going by his own
limitations. Gannon could never make a throw like that. The last thing I want,
and the last thing Shanny wants (because he said as much), is for Cutler to
become another safe-throw QB.

Yes, you go the path of least resistance most of the time, as Cutler did in
this game. However, when a play has got to be made, and it is one of those
throws that Gannon couldn't make it, then Cutler needs to throw it . . .
because he can.

The Broncos had a QB whom they were trying to get to play a nice, safe
ballgame. But that wasn't enough, they found, so they drafted a once-in-a-
generation (IMO) talent. So now they want him to play a nice, safe ballgame?

Maybe, then, we should have kept Plummer and used the pick we wasted
on Cutler to draft a RB or a DT?

Frankly, Reggie has a higher opinion of Gannon as a color man than I do. I
wish Gannon would go into insurance or something so I wouldn't have to
listen to him on Sundays. The guy drove me nuts. :tsk:

-----

A agree with your point about Cutler. We don't want him to become a Bill Musgrave..

On the other hand, I like Gannon, I thought he was fair and he has some good points. When Cutler threw that ball to Sheff I held my breath. It wasn't the fact he was covered, it was more the fact the ball seemed to hang forever.

Some chances he needs to take, others he needs to just check the ball down. The trick is he has to find that balance, No matter where he draws the line, there will be people blasting him for being a gun slinger.

IMO, he should have thrown the ball away on the INT, or he should have tucked the ball and ran, I don't know what Marshall was doing but it looked like he was just hanging out in the pile of guys. :confused:

They really need to work with the WR's about coming back to the QB when he scrambles, it will come in time... I hope

topscribe
12-01-2008, 02:53 AM
A agree with your point about Cutler. We don't want him to become a Bill Musgrave..

On the other hand, I like Gannon, I thought he was fair and he has some good points. When Cutler threw that ball to Sheff I held my breath. It wasn't the fact he was covered, it was more the fact the ball seemed to hang forever.

Some chances he needs to take, others he needs to just check the ball down. The trick is he has to find that balance, No matter where he draws the line, there will be people blasting him for being a gun slinger.

IMO, he should have thrown the ball away on the INT, or he should have tucked the ball and ran, I don't know what Marshall was doing but it looked like he was just hanging out in the pile of guys. :confused:

They really need to work with the WR's about coming back to the QB when he scrambles, it will come in time... I hope

Really? Hang forever? I was amazed at what a laser it was.

But you're right that the receivers need to come back for the pass.

-----

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 02:54 AM
I think most QB's are more effective throwing short....I bet you I could complete 65% of my passes if I only had to throw five yard slants and curls all day. :shocked:

The question is can we win games doing that? If our defense and running game takes off, Cutler will be able to play a bit more conservative, Until that happens, he and his amazing throws are the only chance we have of winning.

topscribe
12-01-2008, 02:56 AM
I love Jay...but I do wish he'd play more games like he did today. Look for the TE's and the 2nd and 3rd receivers. Take what the defense gives you...that doesn't make you conservative...it makes you smart...ala Joe Montana, Troy Aikman & Tom Brady. Hmmm...those guys were and are pretty good...aren't they? Quit zoning in on Marshall all the time...thinking he's superman...because he's not!

Which one of those QBs had Cutler's arm?

-----

topscribe
12-01-2008, 02:59 AM
The question is can we win games doing that? If our defense and running game takes off, Cutler will be able to play a bit more conservative, Until that happens, he and his amazing throws are the only chance we have of winning.

Exactly. I don't agree with what Gannon said, obviously.

I think Cutler needs to keep making those throws in those situations. He's
very, very good at it. Just because others can't do it doesn't mean Cutler
should stop . . .

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fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 03:04 AM
Really? Hang forever? I was amazed at what a laser it was.

But you're right that the receivers need to come back for the pass.

-----

Sheff seemed to wait there forever :D

That throw came on the next drive after the INT. When he threw it up there I thought it was going to be picked because of the way it went up.

He has been working on his drop pass. At times it makes me nervous but he is getting pretty good at dropping it in and over the defenders. Last year it seemed he was always trying to throw it through the defenders. He got more batted balls then normal because he threw such a strait ball.

Hay, I ain't complaining, he made the throw, But I am also willing to except the INT's that will come because of the chances he takes. You can't have it both ways. If the risky throw, INT's go away, the amazing small window completions will go away too.

The question is, do we want Trent Dilfer or Brett Favre playing QB for the Broncos?

honz
12-01-2008, 04:37 AM
Yeah, it's awesome when Jay makes an incredible throw across his body on the run like the ones he completed to Scheff and Marshall, but they are generally pretty dangerous throws. It seems like fans want him to make thosr throws, but then they get fed up with Jay when he throws INT's...you can't have it both ways.

I don't want Jay to become the next Chad Pennington, but he could stand to be a little smarter with the football. I thought he was much better about taking what the defense gave him today, but he still forced a couple of balls in to Marshall and Marshall had to play DB to save him. If he keeps making those crazy throws bad things are going to happen...just like his INT in the end zone today.

Dean
12-01-2008, 07:38 AM
There is, in my mind, a huge difference between being required by the game situation or ability to force the ball and just putting it up for grabs. When the game is close and you already have an easy field goal, you don't throw 1) on the run 2) back across your body 3) without your feet being set (redundant) or shoulders being square into coverage. No matter how much talent a QB has and Jay has a lot, that IMO is a poor decision.

I don't expect QBs to be perfect or robots but in the game there are some rules that everyone has to follow don't bet the entire team's effort on an outrageous long shot. Your actions must be accountable to them.

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 09:01 AM
There is, in my mind, a huge difference between being required by the game situation or ability to force the ball and just putting it up for grabs. When the game is close and you already have an easy field goal, you don't throw 1) on the run 2) back across your body 3) without your feet being set (redundant) or shoulders being square into coverage. No matter how much talent a QB has and Jay has a lot, that IMO is a poor decision.

I don't expect QBs to be perfect or robots but in the game there are some rules that everyone has to follow don't bet the entire team's effort on an outrageous long shot. Your actions must be accountable to them.

I agree with you, there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, depending on the situation. For instance, IMO a QB should never take a sack on 4th down if your out of field goal range or need more then a field goal to win. IMO that is about the only time there is no line, just get the ball out..

Most will agree with this, however where we will differ is where that line should be drawn, what throws are unacceptable and which aren't? Some are needed and other are just mistakes, I believe Cutler would say that himself. Therefore I don't see them as that big a deal because I believe Cutler knows when those mistakes have been made. He just needs to continue to work to avoid them in the future.

LRtagger
12-01-2008, 09:20 AM
Which one of those QBs had Cutler's arm?

-----

What difference does that make?

Would you rather have a QB that wins Super Bowls like those three or have a QB that eclipses every stat in the book (including INTs) like Favre, but only has one SB victory?

I'll take the SB wins all day.

Besides, just because the kid has a strong arm doesnt mean he has to make bad decisions. If he takes the underneath when it is given to him, then that will open up the deep ball when the safety starts to cheat in.

I would rather have his career full of games like yesterday than a career of games like last Sunday.

tomjonesrocks
12-01-2008, 10:34 AM
I saw plenty of long passes. What's he talking about?

I don't want to reel Jay in either but he still could be more selective. There were multiple (long) passes his receivers had to bat down or away that defenders had a legitimate play on--and of course there was the pick in the back of the end zone that looked briefly like it might turn the whole game around in the Jets favor.

Jay's a gunslinger--so you have to take some of the bad with all the good--but still, there's room to throw a few more intermediate and short passes IMO.

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12-01-2008, 01:14 PM
What difference does that make?

Would you rather have a QB that wins Super Bowls like those three or have a QB that eclipses every stat in the book (including INTs) like Favre, but only has one SB victory?

I'll take the SB wins all day.

Besides, just because the kid has a strong arm doesnt mean he has to make bad decisions. If he takes the underneath when it is given to him, then that will open up the deep ball when the safety starts to cheat in.

I would rather have his career full of games like yesterday than a career of games like last Sunday.

You missed my point, but oh well . . .

-----

topscribe
12-01-2008, 01:24 PM
Yeah, it's awesome when Jay makes an incredible throw across his body on the run like the ones he completed to Scheff and Marshall, but they are generally pretty dangerous throws. It seems like fans want him to make thosr throws, but then they get fed up with Jay when he throws INT's...you can't have it both ways.

I don't want Jay to become the next Chad Pennington, but he could stand to be a little smarter with the football. I thought he was much better about taking what the defense gave him today, but he still forced a couple of balls in to Marshall and Marshall had to play DB to save him. If he keeps making those crazy throws bad things are going to happen...just like his INT in the end zone today.

Well, I thought he was smart with the football yesterday. Even the INT was
intended as a throwaway, I believe . . . he just didn't get it high enough. But
that's the way it looked to me at the time. If he was aiming at someone, he
uncharacteristically threw it way over everybody's head except for the guy
standing on the end line.

Maybe Jay forces balls into Marshall because he knows Marshall can play DB
for him. Maybe he throws across his body because he knows he can. Elway
did that his whole career. And, if you check his stats, Elway threw a lot of
INTs at times. But, with one come-from-behind win for every six games he
played, he knew how to come back.

Cutler also has one come-from-behind win for every six games he's played.

Elway drove me nuts at times. Cutler drives me nuts at times. But at least
we're not watching Griese . . . :coffee:

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DenBronx
12-01-2008, 01:28 PM
cutler is most productive when wr's catch the ball, don't fumble the ball and come back to the ball when it's being throw in stead of sitting in the middle of the field like a lame duck while 3 or 4 defenders are drapped all over you.

WARHORSE
12-01-2008, 01:41 PM
The reason Rich Gannon said that is because he was going by his own
limitations. Gannon could never make a throw like that. The last thing I want,
and the last thing Shanny wants (because he said as much), is for Cutler to
become another safe-throw QB.

Yes, you go the path of least resistance most of the time, as Cutler did in
this game. However, when a play has got to be made, and it is one of those
throws that Gannon couldn't make it, then Cutler needs to throw it . . .
because he can.

The Broncos had a QB whom they were trying to get to play a nice, safe
ballgame. But that wasn't enough, they found, so they drafted a once-in-a-
generation (IMO) talent. So now they want him to play a nice, safe ballgame?

Maybe, then, we should have kept Plummer and used the pick we wasted
on Cutler to draft a RB or a DT?

Frankly, Reggie has a higher opinion of Gannon as a color man than I do. I
wish Gannon would go into insurance or something so I wouldn't have to
listen to him on Sundays. The guy drove me nuts. :tsk:

-----

Gannon was spot on, and yet so are you. Scheffler, as well as all the Broncos WRs arent in the habit of moving towards the ball when its in flight. Thats another bad habit that can come with a strong armed QB. If they were in the habit of doing that, this offense would be even MORE dynamic, and harder to stop. Not to mention............if they caught all the balls Jay threw that hit em in the hands.:mad:

Lonestar
12-01-2008, 01:49 PM
Jay will never be asked to be a Pennington simply because Chad does not have a big arm..

He is playing the cards he was dealt same thing with greasy or Jake when they were here.

DO not try to be someone you can't be..

Jay needs to know that there is more than one WR on the field and when he realizes that and starts to spread the ball around then Marshall will be open more often..

The defenses are geared to shut down Marshall and all the small window attempts Jay tries to make just cause it to be worse..

When there are others on the team that are indeed open make those throws and allow the defenses to double them until Marshall can get open..

Then Marshall does not seem to be the same player he was last year either. If it is the double coverage, his arm injury, his run into the NFL commish. something is not the same as last year..

As we saw in this last game the TE's got something like 16 passes thrown their way and we owned the middle of the field..

I remember many games where Rod caught all the passes then the next week Eddie Mac got them.. With Sharpe always getting his share..

IMHO trying to get Marshall a hundred passes and everyone else 40-50 is nuts, spread the ball around and cause the next few DC nightmares trying to figure out who is Target 1 for the following week. Make them practice for all players not just Marshall..

topscribe
12-01-2008, 01:55 PM
Jay will never be asked to be a Pennington simply because Chad does not have a big arm..

He is playing the cards he was dealt same thing with greasy or Jake when they were here.

DO not try to be someone you can't be..

Jay needs to know that there is more than one WR on the field and when he realizes that and starts to spread the ball around then Marshall will be open more often..

The defenses are geared to shut down Marshall and all the small window attempts Jay tries to make just cause it to be worse..

When there are others on the team that are indeed open make those throws and allow the defenses to double them until Marshall can get open..

Then Marshall does not seem to be the same player he was last year either. If it is the double coverage, his arm injury, his run into the NFL commish. something is not the same as last year..

As we saw in this last game the TE's got something like 16 passes thrown their way and we owned the middle of the field..

I remember many games where Rod caught all the passes then the next week Eddie Mac got them.. With Sharpe always getting his share..

IMHO trying to get Marshall a hundred passes and everyone else 40-50 is nuts, spread the ball around and cause the next few DC nightmares trying to figure out who is Target 1 for the following week. Make them practice for all players not just Marshall..

Well, they did that this week.

I just hope they keep it up . . .

-----

LRtagger
12-01-2008, 02:03 PM
You missed my point, but oh well . . .

-----

Sounded to me that you wanted Jay to take more risks just because he has a big arm :confused:

Fan in Exile
12-01-2008, 02:28 PM
I'm not sure why everyone's so worked up about this. The point is pretty simple, don't play like he did against the raiders but do play like he did against the jets.

No one's arguing that you don't take any chances, just that you don't take the stupid ones when you've got a guy open underneath.

ikillz0mbies
12-01-2008, 02:37 PM
Jay could be a little more smarter in throwing the ball when he is being hurried. Take that INT for example, he should've thrown it out of the end zone instead of trying to throw it in that small window. There is no question Cutler has the biggest arm in the NFL right now. But he really should cut back on throwing the ball into double/triple coverage. When Cutler does throw into coverage though, he is the best at actually making the completion. I don't think I have seen a QB throw into coverage and make the completion as much as Cutler has. Cutler is pretty much the only one who can make that throw. But with rewards comes the risk. The more he tries to force a pass, he's going to turn the ball over. I'm not saying Cutler should stop throwing the long ball. Just don't depend on Marshall all the time to make a catch with 3 guys draping over him.

Cutler is truly a gifted QB who has a huge arm and confidence in his abilities. He throws the ball where he throws it because he knows he can make it. The guy just believes in every pass that he throws, regardless if it is an INT. He just needs to know that the other players can make a catch just as Marshall can make one. Graham has been a big target as of late, Scheffler has proven he's a go-to guy, Stokley (granted he dropped a gimme) is one of the most reliable targets out there. If Marshall isn't open, look for the other guys I just mentioned.

jrelway
12-01-2008, 02:44 PM
both of our TE's had over a 100yrds combined and were open alot yesterday. i think jay is taking what is given to him more often now. when our TE's are on fire, we usually win the game.

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 02:48 PM
I saw plenty of long passes. What's he talking about?

I don't want to reel Jay in either but he still could be more selective. There were multiple (long) passes his receivers had to bat down or away that defenders had a legitimate play on--and of course there was the pick in the back of the end zone that looked briefly like it might turn the whole game around in the Jets favor.

Jay's a gunslinger--so you have to take some of the bad with all the good--but still, there's room to throw a few more intermediate and short passes IMO.

When you see one on one on a deep rout, you have to take your shot down the field and give your receiver a chance to make a play.. Great receivers make their living doing that. Look at Steve Smith, he had 2 long completions yesterday against a better corner then Marshall had where he just made a play. If Cutler only throws to Marshall when he is wide open, Marshall wont get a single ball all game!

Moss gets the double team, T.O gets the double team, yet they still get around 100 receptions a year. Marshall needs to pull his head out of his butt and get open! For the last 5 or 6 weeks he is getting shown up. The least he can do is keep the defender from intercepting the pass, it isn't to much to ask.



Jay will never be asked to be a Pennington simply because Chad does not have a big arm..

He is playing the cards he was dealt same thing with greasy or Jake when they were here.

DO not try to be someone you can't be..

Jay needs to know that there is more than one WR on the field and when he realizes that and starts to spread the ball around then Marshall will be open more often..

The defenses are geared to shut down Marshall and all the small window attempts Jay tries to make just cause it to be worse..

When there are others on the team that are indeed open make those throws and allow the defenses to double them until Marshall can get open..

Then Marshall does not seem to be the same player he was last year either. If it is the double coverage, his arm injury, his run into the NFL commish. something is not the same as last year..

As we saw in this last game the TE's got something like 16 passes thrown their way and we owned the middle of the field..

I remember many games where Rod caught all the passes then the next week Eddie Mac got them.. With Sharpe always getting his share..

IMHO trying to get Marshall a hundred passes and everyone else 40-50 is nuts, spread the ball around and cause the next few DC nightmares trying to figure out who is Target 1 for the following week. Make them practice for all players not just Marshall..


Sorry JR but this is getting a bit old, Jay didn't throw that many balls at Marshall yesterday. The only time he even threw the long ball to Marshall is when he had one on one. That is when he should be throwing the long ball to him. Marshall has to make a play! 20 - 30 WR in this league can beat almost any corner one on one on a go rout. T.O. is open all day even when he is getting the double team. If Marshall can't even beat one guy, Packman was right when he said he is no where near T.O.'s league.

Your right, there were 16 "completions" to the TE's. He threw way more balls to them then he did Marshall.

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 02:54 PM
Sounded to me that you wanted Jay to take more risks just because he has a big arm :confused:

His point was pretty simple, Those risky throws Gannon was talking about are less risky with Jay because he has a better arm then Gannon.

I agree to a point, with a lesser armed QB you would get 1 completion and 5 or 6 INT's. With Cutler you get 6 completions and 1 INT. When 2 or 3 of those completions are TD's, the reward is far greater then the risk...

Superchop 7
12-01-2008, 02:56 PM
Jay is most effective when the reciever gets open.

honz
12-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Well, to be fair to Marshall, the two times Jay went deep to him they either weren't on the same page or Jay made a poor throw. It's hard to make a play when you are open on your outside shoulder and the QB throws it to your inside shoulder where the DB is. That said, I think Marshall has definitely lost some of his swagger for some reason...he just doesn't look as confident or aggressive out there as he did in his first couple games this season.

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 03:04 PM
I'm not sure why everyone's so worked up about this. The point is pretty simple, don't play like he did against the raiders but do play like he did against the jets.

No one's arguing that you don't take any chances, just that you don't take the stupid ones when you've got a guy open underneath.

How much difference were there in the choices he made? The biggest difference was that he was throwing a better ball. The TD he threw to Royal he had no business throwing by Gannon's standerds. Royal was covered! Jay threw the ball in a 2 by 2 window and royal made the play. If he had checked down on that play, there would have been no TD, at least not on that play.

What some are saying is, their not willing to risk losing those big plays to stop the few extra INT's that will also come from those same exact type reads and throws.

So far he has 21 TD's and 13 INT's. IMO we are scoring more TD's from the gunslinger mentality then we are getting extra INT's.. That don't hold true in every game but as a whole, the reward seems to be out weighing the risk at this point.

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 03:12 PM
Well, to be fair to Marshall, the two times Jay went deep to him they either weren't on the same page or Jay made a poor throw. It's hard to make a play when you are open on your outside shoulder and the QB throws it to your inside shoulder where the DB is. That said, I think Marshall has definitely lost some of his swagger for some reason...he just doesn't look as confident or aggressive out there as he did in his first couple games this season.

I totally agree!

The one deep throw he threw it short and inside, if he had at least got it on Marshall's outside shoulder he would have had a much better chance of coming back and making the play. That one was on cutler. It was a good read but a poor throw.

He (Cutler) also needs to put more air under his deep throws. That ball only went about 50 yards. I have seen him throw it around 70, It's like he's trying to hit his receiver instead of throwing it out there and letting them go get it.

topscribe
12-01-2008, 03:18 PM
Sounded to me that you wanted Jay to take more risks just because he has a big arm :confused:

Well no, that's not quite what I said. I was saying only that I want Jay to be
Jay. He can do things few other QBs have ever been able to do, so do them.
That doesn't mean take unnecessary, unreasonable risks.

His pass to Scheffler is a case in point. Few QBs could, or ever should, try to
complete that pass. But Jay could because of his howitzer arm and his
pinpoint accuracy. In fact, I might go so far as to say that this play helped to
restore some confidence in him. He was missing a pass here and there before,
but he missed very few, if any, afterward.

No, I'm glad he did that, as well as that pass he threw back across the field,
across his body, and completed it. He can do it, so do it. That's all.

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Fan in Exile
12-01-2008, 05:43 PM
How much difference were there in the choices he made? The biggest difference was that he was throwing a better ball. The TD he threw to Royal he had no business throwing by Gannon's standerds. Royal was covered! Jay threw the ball in a 2 by 2 window and royal made the play. If he had checked down on that play, there would have been no TD, at least not on that play.

What some are saying is, their not willing to risk losing those big plays to stop the few extra INT's that will also come from those same exact type reads and throws.

So far he has 21 TD's and 14 INT's. IMO we are scoring more TD's from the gunslinger mentality then we are getting extra INT's.. That don't hold true in every game but as a whole, the reward seems to be out weighing the risk at this point.

There was a huge difference in the choices that were being made. Look at all the balls the TE's caught. It isn't all on Cutler's shoulders some of it, I'm sure is play calling. But against the Jets it was tons better.

Lonestar
12-01-2008, 08:09 PM
When you see one on one on a deep rout, you have to take your shot down the field and give your receiver a chance to make a play.. Great receivers make their living doing that. Look at Steve Smith, he had 2 long completions yesterday against a better corner then Marshall had where he just made a play. If Cutler only throws to Marshall when he is wide open, Marshall wont get a single ball all game!

Moss gets the double team, T.O gets the double team, yet they still get around 100 receptions a year. Marshall needs to pull his head out of his butt and get open! For the last 5 or 6 weeks he is getting shown up. The least he can do is keep the defender from intercepting the pass, it isn't to much to ask.


Sorry JR but this is getting a bit old, Jay didn't throw that many balls at Marshall yesterday. The only time he even threw the long ball to Marshall is when he had one on one. That is when he should be throwing the long ball to him. Marshall has to make a play! 20 - 30 WR in this league can beat almost any corner one on one on a go rout. T.O. is open all day even when he is getting the double team. If Marshall can't even beat one guy, Packman was right when he said he is no where near T.O.'s league.

Your right, there were 16 "completions" to the TE's. He threw way more balls to them then he did Marshall.



I guess i did not make it clear that over the past 5-6 games he has tried to force the ball into Marshall when others were open or not in double coverage..

The game before this one OAK her repeatedly tried to hi the home run and either Marshall was not able to get separation or the ball was not placed well..

I have always been a proponent of throwing to the open man deep or short but make the completion and that takes the pressure off of in this case Marshall as the DC can no longer just game plan to take him out of the game..

If the Rb in the flat is open get 6-10 yards do that 15 times a game and sooner or alter someone else will be open deep or the defense will be so tired of being on the field for 12-15 play drives then every thing gets easy and it keeps out defense off the field and from getting the same thing done to them..

Ball control can make any defense OK.. give me 38+ minutes of TOP every game and even slowick can't screw it up to bad..

But trying to hit teh home run casuses one of two things..


Incopmlete passes and a defense that gets no sideline rest..
a home run and a defense that gets no sideline rest..


second is better that the first but we have those had few and far inbetween..

Dean
12-01-2008, 08:10 PM
I agree to a point, with a lesser armed QB you would get 1 completion and 5 or 6 INT's. With Cutler you get 6 completions and 1 INT. When 2 or 3 of those completions are TD's, the reward is far greater then the risk...


I think that I have to play the BS card on that one. There is overstatement and then there is "6 completions and 1 INT. When 2 or 3 of those completions are TD's" This statement really stretches reality.

Jay is a very talented QB. He doesn't walk on water no matter how strong his arm is. IMO poor decisions should be corrected irregardless of who the player is. I think that they call that coaching. Making correct decisions can't help but make that arm even more effective. He isn't there, yet.

Jay, keep developing as a QB and we will improve as an offense and as a team.

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 11:01 PM
I think that I have to play the BS card on that one. There is overstatement and then there is "6 completions and 1 INT. When 2 or 3 of those completions are TD's" This statement really stretches reality.

Jay is a very talented QB. He doesn't walk on water no matter how strong his arm is. IMO poor decisions should be corrected irregardless of who the player is. I think that they call that coaching. Making correct decisions can't help but make that arm even more effective. He isn't there, yet.

Jay, keep developing as a QB and we will improve as an offense and as a team.

I agree but one would have to define what a poor decision is ;)

In your opinion was it a poor decision for him to force the ball to Royal on the TD pass? Was it a poor decision for him to force the ball to Graham for the TD against Atlanta? Was it a poor decision for him to force the throw to Sheffler for the TD against the Raiders? (week 1) I could go on....

It's only a poor decision if "HE" can't make the throw, I really don't care whats a poor decision for Chad Penington, If he tride to throw half the balls Cutler does it would be a poor decision because he can't do it.

IMO, That was the point top was trying to make...

fcspikeit
12-01-2008, 11:11 PM
There was a huge difference in the choices that were being made. Look at all the balls the TE's caught. It isn't all on Cutler's shoulders some of it, I'm sure is play calling. But against the Jets it was tons better.

It's just as easy for Cutler to make bad choices while throwing to the TE's. In fact there where a couple forced throws to Sheffler. The biggest differance was that he was making the throws. From the sounds of it, A lot of the time the guys were open last week on the deep balls, he just wasn't making the throw. If that were the case, he wasn't making bad decisions, he was having a bad game.


When he misses the throw he is a goat for trying to force it in there, When he completes the same exact throw he is a hero for being able to do what most other QB's can't...

We can't have it both ways, Unless he truly does what no other QB has ever been able to do, he wont be able to lose one without losing the other...

My only question is, are the big plays we get from the risky throws worth the INT's that come with them?

Dean
12-01-2008, 11:33 PM
I agree but one would have to define what a poor decision is ;)

In your opinion was it a poor decision for him to force the ball to Royal on the TD pass? Was it a poor decision for him to force the ball to Graham for the TD against Atlanta? Was it a poor decision for him to force the throw to Sheffler for the TD against the Raiders? (week 1) I could go on....

It's only a poor decision if "HE" can't make the throw, I really don't care whats a poor decision for Chad Penington, If he tride to throw half the balls Cutler does it would be a poor decision because he can't do it.

IMO, That was the point top was trying to make...

A bad decision IMO is being in field goal position rolling to your right and throwing back across your body while unter pressure without you feet or sholders square to where you hope the ball to go.

In regard to the pass to Royal, I evidently didn't see what you saw. I saw Royal with a one step advantage and having the deeper defender screened by Royal's body and the underneath defender 2 to 3 steps from Royal. Cutler had his feet set and threw the ball on rhythm with a clear line of sight stepping into the throw. I didn't see the situation (field goal position), the pass, or the technical difficulty as being similar at all.

fcspikeit
12-02-2008, 05:49 AM
A bad decision IMO is being in field goal position rolling to your right and throwing back across your body while unter pressure without you feet or sholders square to where you hope the ball to go.

In regard to the pass to Royal, I evidently didn't see what you saw. I saw Royal with a one step advantage and having the deeper defender screened by Royal's body and the underneath defender 2 to 3 steps from Royal. Cutler had his feet set and threw the ball on rhythm with a clear line of sight stepping into the throw. I didn't see the situation (field goal position), the pass, or the technical difficulty as being similar at all.

There you see we agree, no matter how it's seen, the INT was a poor decision!

I didn't even see an open guy on the field. Your right, that's not the same read and throw as was the pass to Royal. At least with the Royal pass there was a window, with the INT I didn't see a winder at all.

It looked to me like maybe he thought Marshall was going to whip around the back of the pile? Or maybe he was trying to throw it away? Or maybe he just threw it out there? Either way. That was a poor read. I would say poor throw too but beings we don't really know where he was trying to go with it, that would just be an assumption.

This conversation came about because of the ball Cutler forced to Sheffler, where Gannon said, that was a "don't throw it, don't throw it..Great throw! Pass" Even that was clearly a better read then the INT. After all, the pass was completed.

Just to clarify, in your opinion the pass to Royal despite the tight winder and coverage was a good read? That is what were talking about right? Cutler making the right reads. In Gannon's opinion, Cutler gets bailed out from is bad reads by great throws, At times that might be the case, but after a pattern emerges, a string of completions, You have to say, maybe it was a bad read as is said in the QB hand book. But it isn't a bad read for Cutler because he can make those throws..

Basically I was talking about the risky throws, not the no chance, completely dumb mistakes :D

topscribe
12-02-2008, 08:35 PM
I believe Mike Klis of the Denver Post was pretty much on the money:


If you take away Cutler's aggressiveness, you will take away his ability to make a game-changing play. He is only in his third season. Let him keep playing. Let him keep making mistakes. I've said this before and it applies more to quarterbacks than any other position: No one knows how far he can go until he goes too far. Cutler has learned some hard lessons. But he's also about to lead the Broncos into the playoffs. And once there, better believe the Broncos' opponent greatest fear is the possibility that Cutler can go off for a 300-yard, three-touchdown game

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11115265

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TXBRONC
12-02-2008, 09:30 PM
I believe Mike Klis of the Denver Post was pretty much on the money:



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11115265

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I totally agree. :salute: