Mike Klis in Tebows corner? WTF?!

[Bullgator]

Wow I guess the global hate for TT has worn down even one of his greatest critics in Klis.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18749825?source=rss

[broncobryce]

Naw, just wait a week or two and he'll be back to bashing him again.

[bcbronc]

Global hate for the kid that had the highest selling jersey before he even signed his first pro contract? You're bordering on delusional friend.

[MOtorboat]

Its truly absurd how much people throw the "hate" word around.

Anyone who says anything "negative" about anyone is accused of "hate." It is patently absurd. If anyone says something that doesn't agree with their opinion is considered "hate."

I'd like to challenge everyone to be more intelligent than this crap.

[Tned]

Its truly absurd how much people throw the "hate" word around.

Anyone who says anything "negative" about anyone is accused of "hate." It is patently absurd. If anyone says something that doesn't agree with their opinion is considered "hate."

I'd like to challenge everyone to be more intelligent than this crap.

I hate when people throw around the word "intelligence." ;)

[Agent of Orange]

I hate when people throw around the word "intelligence." ;)

I was going to bust his balls for using the word "patently". Does he really know what it means or does he just repeat what he's heard from others because he thinks it makes him sound "intelligent". ;-)

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Bullgator - living in Denver, I read the articles written by the local people, I hear the local sportscasters on tv and radio, and there is NO hate for Tebow. Telling it like it is does not equal hate. They tell it like it is - and it just is NOT Tebow - it is other Broncos, Rockies, Nuggets, and AVS players.

[Northman]

Its truly absurd how much people throw the "hate" word around.

Anyone who says anything "negative" about anyone is accused of "hate." It is patently absurd. If anyone says something that doesn't agree with their opinion is considered "hate."

I'd like to challenge everyone to be more intelligent than this crap.


Good post but i will add that if some of those who "criticize" Tebow did it more intelligently would go a long way too. (Not referring to you MO)

[MOtorboat]

I was going to bust his balls for using the word "patently". Does he really know what it means or does he just repeat what he's heard from others because he thinks it makes him sound "intelligent". ;-)

So, what does "patently" mean?

[Agent of Orange]

So, what does "patently" mean?

Yeah, see, that's what I thought.

[MOtorboat]

So, what does "patently" mean?

Yeah, see, that's what I thought.

I know the definition, clearly you do not. So, you're just trolling at this point, with no real purpose?

Good to know.

[Agent of Orange]

I know the definition, clearly you do not. So, you're just trolling at this point, with no real purpose?

Good to know.

This comment is derived from asking me what the word means when I wasn't even the one using it? LOL. You're a fraud.

[Northman]

This thread went to shit fast.

[Lancane]

This thread went to shit fast.

And you're surprised by that North? :lol:

Can't tell we're not bored, we really need the regular season to start so we can start bitching about the crap players, bad coaching, idiotic penalties and so on.

:D

[Dzone]

This thread went to shit fast.
Indeed. It has patently gone to shit.
:lol:

[BroncoStud]

Its truly absurd how much people throw the "hate" word around.

Anyone who says anything "negative" about anyone is accused of "hate." It is patently absurd. If anyone says something that doesn't agree with their opinion is considered "hate."

I'd like to challenge everyone to be more intelligent than this crap.

You're a Broncos fan. Do you feel Tebow is being treated fairly by the media? Is he being covered in the same regards as the other 2nd year QBs or players that were drafted in the 1st round?

Why don't we hear major media coverage and angst towards D. Thomas, who was drafted higher than Tebow, and was taken ahead of Dez Bryant, who appears to be a stud? Why isn't Robert Ayers being bashed repeatedly? What about K. Moreno? Both those guys were taken before Tebow... Where is the national media coverage of Jimmy Clausen, Mel Kiper's "most NFL-ready" QB who can barely complete a pass? Where is the mass negative coverage of C. J. Spiller or Ryan Matthews?

Go back to 2009. Tyson Jackson, Matthew Stafford, Heyward-Bey, K. Moreno, R. Ayers, Aaron Maybin, etc, etc... Some can't stay healthy, some can't quite produce enough, and some have already been cut from their teams, yet ALL were drafted ahead of Tebow.

I didn't like that we drafted Tebow, but then Orto sucked so much I wanted to see what Tebow could do and he did ok. Now I am just starting to feel bad for the dude, guys like Hoge, Esiason, Silver, and pretty much every other ESPN talking drone is piling on him, and for what? I haven't heard Hoge say one bad thing about Heyward-Bey, and it's clear as hell that guy isn't an NFL WR.

I think it borders on complete ignorance to deny that the media is out to pile on Tebow for ratings, nothing more, nothing less. His treatment is anything but fair.

[Tned]

Please keep the politics, religion and similar stuff out of Broncos Talk threads, please. If you feel it is a topic worthy of discussion, take it to Politics or Religion.

People don't come into Broncos threads to read that kind of crap.

Thanks for your help on this.

[Tned]

Please keep the politics, religion and similar stuff out of Broncos Talk threads, please. If you feel it is a topic worthy of discussion, take it to Politics or Religion.

People don't come into Broncos threads to read that kind of crap.

Thanks for your help on this.

I repeat the above.

That includes responses to this. There are no mods working now, so you asses have forced me to moderate, something I rarely due and hate to do, and I am not as nice as the mods. So, end it now, and let me go back to not modding for a couple more months.

For your sake and mine.

got it?

[Tned]

I'm re-opening the thread. Do not start back up with the crap that was in the 10+ posts I had to delete.

[bcbronc]

You're a Broncos fan. Do you feel Tebow is being treated fairly by the media? Is he being covered in the same regards as the other 2nd year QBs or players that were drafted in the 1st round?

Why don't we hear major media coverage and angst towards D. Thomas, who was drafted higher than Tebow, and was taken ahead of Dez Bryant, who appears to be a stud? Why isn't Robert Ayers being bashed repeatedly? What about K. Moreno? Both those guys were taken before Tebow... Where is the national media coverage of Jimmy Clausen, Mel Kiper's "most NFL-ready" QB who can barely complete a pass? Where is the mass negative coverage of C. J. Spiller or Ryan Matthews?

Go back to 2009. Tyson Jackson, Matthew Stafford, Heyward-Bey, K. Moreno, R. Ayers, Aaron Maybin, etc, etc... Some can't stay healthy, some can't quite produce enough, and some have already been cut from their teams, yet ALL were drafted ahead of Tebow.

I didn't like that we drafted Tebow, but then Orto sucked so much I wanted to see what Tebow could do and he did ok. Now I am just starting to feel bad for the dude, guys like Hoge, Esiason, Silver, and pretty much every other ESPN talking drone is piling on him, and for what? I haven't heard Hoge say one bad thing about Heyward-Bey, and it's clear as hell that guy isn't an NFL WR.

I think it borders on complete ignorance to deny that the media is out to pile on Tebow for ratings, nothing more, nothing less. His treatment is anything but fair.

You really can't figure out what the difference is? For realz??

First, other than Clausen, none of the players you mentioned are even QBs. Second, none--including Clausen--are in the discussion for greatest college player of all time. And none had the highest selling jersey before signing their first contract. And none did a pro-life Super Bowl commercial (sorry Tned, that's a point that's relevant and not a continuation of the other stuff imo).

The other point, all the players you mentioned do get criticized. Not to the degree of Tebow, sure. But Clausen also isn't starring in Nike and Jockey commercials despite being a bench warmer. Funny, I haven't heard anyone complain that Tebow gets ad campaigns despite not starting. Is that "anything but fair"?

Tebow's not your typical guy...for good, bad or indifferent. It makes him $$$ and gives him a public voice. It's only natural that there's some blowback when he doesn't live up to the hype on the field (no, he hasn't).

:coffee:

[Lancane]

You really can't figure out what the difference is? For realz??

First, other than Clausen, none of the players you mentioned are even QBs. Second, none--including Clausen--are in the discussion for greatest college player of all time. And none had the highest selling jersey before signing their first contract. And none did a pro-life Super Bowl commercial (sorry Tned, that's a point that's relevant and not a continuation of the other stuff imo).

The other point, all the players you mentioned do get criticized. Not to the degree of Tebow, sure. But Clausen also isn't starring in Nike and Jockey commercials despite being a bench warmer. Funny, I haven't heard anyone complain that Tebow gets ad campaigns despite not starting. Is that "anything but fair"?

Tebow's not your typical guy...for good, bad or indifferent. It makes him $$$ and gives him a public voice. It's only natural that there's some blowback when he doesn't live up to the hype on the field (no, he hasn't).

:coffee:

Great Post BC, I fully agree.

Even if he is nothing more then a trick quarterback/fullback or whatever later on, he's always going to have some following because of his accomplishments. He's the type of person that people will want to be a team representative in regards to the NFLPA, United Way and so on, and because of that or what he stands for sometimes it just seems he get's overly criticized.

[horsepig]

Nice article by Klis though.

[Ravage!!!]

Not only that, but its the OVER-HYPING that his following has put on Tebow. Tebow is a "victim" of his ridiculous fans that have constantly put him up on this pedestal, claiming the greatness and proclaiming that he's going to "change the position" forever.

If the Tebow fanatics didn't keep coming out in hoards and screaming just how "fantastic" he is, he wouldn't have such a target on his back to bring back down to earth.

[jhildebrand]

I think the idea of hate comes about not just from the articles and their tone but moreso the way Tebow is talked about vs. the other QB's. The conversation is slanted when it comes to Tebow! One week Orton goes 2 for 6 and people say he had a good game and not to look into the numbers because WR's dropped passes etc... The next week people want to highlight that Tebow was only 1 for 2 YET NEGLECT to highlight a MAJOR DROP. The argument's rules change when talking about Orton.

I will also say there definitely is a push even locally to go overboard. Les and JoJo go way over the top when discussing Tebow. I used to really like Les as a sportscaster. The guy, all of 102.3 as a matter of fact, seem to have their opinions handed to them knowing what the Tebow talk will bring them. It is so bad I don't even bother tuning into that station anymore-Cecil Lammy was almost enough as it was!

At this point, I find it ridiculous that our #3 QB is even talked about so much.

[Ravage!!!]

Good post but i will add that if some of those who "criticize" Tebow did it more intelligently would go a long way too. (Not referring to you MO)

Depends on what you mean, North. If you are suggesting that Boomer's criticisms of Tebow isn't "intelligent" then we have different definitions of the word. He absolutely is an intelligent man, and certainly has the skill set to form opinions of a player he sees on the field. He's always had strong opinions on things, and this isn't any different. It's not less intelligent to say that Tebow can't throw the ball, when there are TONS of hours of film on the guy. WHen he showed he couldn't throw in college, why would the three games he started change that opinion after hitting only 50% of his passes?

Scouts, critics, and analyzers have been saying Tebow can't throw since before the draft he was taken in. Whats changed? Nothing. Has NOTHING to do with "just" three games that Tebow has played in.

[Lancane]

Not only that, but its the OVER-HYPING that his following has put on Tebow. Tebow is a "victim" of his ridiculous fans that have constantly put him up on this pedestal, claiming the greatness and proclaiming that he's going to "change the position" forever.

If the Tebow fanatics didn't keep coming out in hoards and screaming just how "fantastic" he is, he wouldn't have such a target on his back to bring back down to earth.

Agree, I think it adds to how polarizing a character he is or has become, that he has so many placing him up high without earning it, and not realizing that by doing so that if he falls - it could totally shatter him in so many different ways.

[jhildebrand]

Depends on what you mean, North. If you are suggesting that Boomer's criticisms of Tebow isn't "intelligent" then we have different definitions of the word. He absolutely is an intelligent man, and certainly has the skill set to form opinions of a player he sees on the field. He's always had strong opinions on things, and this isn't any different. It's not less intelligent to say that Tebow can't throw the ball, when there are TONS of hours of film on the guy. WHen he showed he couldn't throw in college, why would the three games he started change that opinion after hitting only 50% of his passes?

Scouts, critics, and analyzers have been saying Tebow can't throw since before the draft he was taken in. Whats changed? Nothing. Has NOTHING to do with "just" three games that Tebow has played in.

This is precisely the "changing the argument I am talking about!"

Boomer was fine for the most part then went WAY OFF base. When someone says " I don't mean to be _________ but" i.e. I don't mean to be insulting but the but is usually followed by insults. I am not a racist BUT (insert some random racist thought!). Boomer did just that.

For every Boomer there is a Steve Young and Jon Gruden and Dave Razzano who feel differently. Elway was 47.5% his rookie year. I don't recall anybody saying he couldn't throw the ball.

[Northman]

Depends on what you mean, North. If you are suggesting that Boomer's criticisms of Tebow isn't "intelligent" then we have different definitions of the word. He absolutely is an intelligent man, and certainly has the skill set to form opinions of a player he sees on the field. He's always had strong opinions on things, and this isn't any different. It's not less intelligent to say that Tebow can't throw the ball, when there are TONS of hours of film on the guy. WHen he showed he couldn't throw in college, why would the three games he started change that opinion after hitting only 50% of his passes?

Scouts, critics, and analyzers have been saying Tebow can't throw since before the draft he was taken in. Whats changed? Nothing. Has NOTHING to do with "just" three games that Tebow has played in.

Yet Montana says he shouldnt change a thing. Depends on "who" you want to believe i guess right? The other thing this isnt about Boomer talking about mechanics Rav, this is about Boomer already writing off a guy after 3 games when Boomer himself had far more time to be "NFL ready" while playing sparingly with the starting QB's until he was ready. Most people know Tebow is still working at his issues but when you listen to guys like Hoge and Boomer they arent claiming that. They are saying he is not an NFL QB. That my friend is bad commentating and full of MASSIVE holes. I know you dont care for the kid and dont think he will succed but surely you know the difference between honest criticism and BS right?

[Northman]

This is precisely the "changing the argument I am talking about!"

Boomer was fine for the most part then went WAY OFF base. When someone says " I don't mean to be _________ but" i.e. I don't mean to be insulting but the but is usually followed by insults. I am not a racist BUT (insert some random racist thought!). Boomer did just that.

For every Boomer there is a Steve Young and Jon Gruden and Dave Razzano who feel differently. Elway was 47.5% his rookie year. I don't recall anybody saying he couldn't throw the ball.

Exactly. Lets just say i give far more credit to guys who i think really know what they are talking about and guys who are just blowing hot air.

[jhildebrand]

Yet Montana says he shouldnt change a thing. Depends on "who" you want to believe i guess right? The other thing this isnt about Boomer talking about mechanics Rav, this is about Boomer already writing off a guy after 3 games when Boomer himself had far more time to be "NFL ready" while playing sparingly with the starting QB's until he was ready. Most people know Tebow is still working at his issues but when you listen to guys like Hoge and Boomer they arent claiming that. They are saying he is not an NFL QB. That my friend is bad commentating and full of MASSIVE holes. I know you dont care for the kid and dont think he will succed but surely you know the difference between honest criticism and BS right?

Not to mention the fact that they use words like NEVER. The fact is Hoge was just fine in his original assessment of Tebow. Since then the guy has only shown himself to be an ass. When someone speaks in complete definites, I tune out.

[jhildebrand]

Exactly. Lets just say i give far more credit to guys who i think really know what they are talking about and guys who are just blowing hot air.

I will listen to an ex qb more than a guy like Hoge. I will listen to both sides, Jaws (tebow critic/non believer) and a guy like Monatana and Young (believers) who say don't change his mechanics! I will listen to a QB "guru" i.e. Gruden (tebow believer) and those who don't believe. But the minute people start saying NEVER and other finite phrases, I tune out. They just lose all credibility.

I continue to think Hoge knows his ESPN contract is up and knows Tebow can keep him relevant and in the media in hopes of landing elsewhere.

[Ravage!!!]

This is precisely the "changing the argument I am talking about!"

Boomer was fine for the most part then went WAY OFF base. When someone says " I don't mean to be _________ but" i.e. I don't mean to be insulting but the but is usually followed by insults. I am not a racist BUT (insert some random racist thought!). Boomer did just that.
Generally means there is going to come some criticism or strong opinion. Thats what that statement means. Everyone uses it, it doesn't "change the argument" in the least.


For every Boomer there is a Steve Young and Jon Gruden and Dave Razzano who feel differently.
Ok. So why do people get so upset every time someone shares an opposing view? Whats the HARM in broadcasting a strong opinion that doesn't compliment the guy? I PROMISE you, that if Steve Young came out and just PRAISED Tebow to the highest of compliments, people would be saying "see see" and pointing about hwo Great Steve is. Its the fact that Hoge and Boomer say "mean" things about Tebow that get people up in arms, and its silly.


Elway was 47.5% his rookie year. I don't recall anybody saying he couldn't throw the ball.
BECAUSE people already knew Elway could throw!! ITs not like John was coming out of college with people doubting is accuracy! They put down a TON about John after his rookie season. He was criticized BIG TIME in Denver and all over the nation. If you don't remember that, then you might want to rethink.

[broncobryce]

Not only that, but its the OVER-HYPING that his following has put on Tebow. Tebow is a "victim" of his ridiculous fans that have constantly put him up on this pedestal, claiming the greatness and proclaiming that he's going to "change the position" forever.

If the Tebow fanatics didn't keep coming out in hoards and screaming just how "fantastic" he is, he wouldn't have such a target on his back to bring back down to earth.

If a broncos fan lets another person make them hate a Broncos player, I just feel like that's pathetic. So that is their problem not Tebow's.

[Northman]

I will listen to an ex qb more than a guy like Hoge. I will listen to both sides, Jaws (tebow critic/non believer) and a guy like Monatana and Young (believers) who say don't change his mechanics! I will listen to a QB "guru" i.e. Gruden (tebow believer) and those who don't believe. But the minute people start saying NEVER and other finite phrases, I tune out. They just lose all credibility.

I continue to think Hoge knows his ESPN contract is up and knows Tebow can keep him relevant and in the media in hopes of landing elsewhere.

Like you i will listen to a QB. But when a guy like Boomer says a guy cant be a NFL QB after just 3 starts just cant be taken seriously. This coming from a guy who said that Manning would be another Dan Mariino and not win a SB. :lol:

Uh yea, he sure knows his stuff. Sorry, not every talking head is good at analyzing players. Ill even take the critique of his former college coach over Boomer and Urban was hard on him as well.

[Ravage!!!]

I will listen to an ex qb more than a guy like Hoge. I will listen to both sides, Jaws (tebow critic/non believer) and a guy like Monatana and Young (believers) who say don't change his mechanics! I will listen to a QB "guru" i.e. Gruden (tebow believer) and those who don't believe. But the minute people start saying NEVER and other finite phrases, I tune out. They just lose all credibility.

I continue to think Hoge knows his ESPN contract is up and knows Tebow can keep him relevant and in the media in hopes of landing elsewhere.

I'm sorry. I just can't help but completely disagree. You will listen to Gruden, who has NEVER played in the NFl nor has he ever played QB, but won't listen to Hoge who HAS played in the NFL, but because he's never played QB.

Montana who has PROVED to be an absolutely HORRENDOUS analyzer and commentator purely because he did play QB.

How is it that those that didn't play QB have lesser opinions? :confused: I guess there isn't a coach in the NFL that should give any kind of opinion on their QBs, then? I mean, how many NFL head-coaches have played QB in the NFL?

Wouldn't it make more sense to take the opinion of defenders that study tape on QBs? Seems they are the ones that watch the films on the QBs, right? What are the defensive ex-NFL guys saying about Tebow?

Also, I have NO problem with a person using definitives, because it shows they are STANDING for their opinion. We have criticized people for trying to remain middle of the road, yet get pissed if they used definitives?

I, personally, have a BIGGER problem with guys like Gruden who doesn't say anything negative about many. He's always "nice" about everyone. Then there are those that want to say " Well gee, he's not good NOW, but perhaps, someday, with some hard work and time, he could make a good NFL QB..... someday." Not wanting to make a statement, not wanting to make a stand, not wanting to put their necks out, and play the middle of the road so that both sides are covered. Blah.

[bcbronc]

Agree, I think it adds to how polarizing a character he is or has become, that he has so many placing him up high without earning it, and not realizing that by doing so that if he falls - it could totally shatter him in so many different ways.

This is something I've been thinking about as well. Tebow is the kind of physical specimen that coupled with his undeniable work ethic has always been a man playing with boys since highschool. This is probably the first time in his life he couldn't just impose his will on the football field. It will be interesting to watch how he deals with it and whether he can adapt his game the way he's going to need to.


If a broncos fan lets another person make them hate a Broncos player, I just feel like that's pathetic. So that is their problem not Tebow's.

*cough* Orton *cough* McDaniels/Cutler *cough*

[Ravage!!!]

If a broncos fan lets another person make them hate a Broncos player, I just feel like that's pathetic. So that is their problem not Tebow's.

For one, I'm not talking about Bronco fans... I'm talkign about TEBOW fans.

Two, I'm not talking about thaty OVER-HYPE bothering Bronco fans, but EVERYONE around the nation. Commentators all ovr the nation hear Tebow fans put him up on the pedestal... bragging about his greatness, and how he's going to "change the position." Its not just Bronco nation that hears this, and because of the over-hype by the Tebowmaniacs, it has put a red circle on the back of his head.

[Ravage!!!]

Like you i will listen to a QB. But when a guy like Boomer says a guy cant be a NFL QB after just 3 starts just cant be taken seriously. This coming from a guy who said that Manning would be another Dan Mariino and not win a SB. :lol:

.

Why does Boomer guessing that Manning woudl never win a Super Bowl take away from any credibility?

[PAINTERDAVE]

Some of thses guys are SO invested in Tim's failure that they
do not want him to even get a chance to succeed.

That is sad and pathetic, really.

Any level of success by Tim... will reflect badly on many in the media.

They are the ones in position to put their OPINIONS in front of millions of viewers/readers..
so many of the media are doing their level best to tank his career
before it even gets started..
'cause if Tim has some success...
their reputations will be damaged by it.

They are the ones, however...
who have painted themselves into this corner.
The piling on reflects their fear.

You might be upset that Tebow has fans..
even some fans who cheer loudly and sound off on message boards..
but the Tebow contingent has nowhere NEAR the power of
those in the media who are invested in his failure.

Blaming the hate and fear about Tim's possible success..
on fans who want to see him to get a shot...
on fans who have seen him do NOTHING BUT succeed...
and so believe in his ability to develop and grow and become succesful...
is silly on it's face. It is not rational to say...

"You like him so much it makes me hate him."

No one has the power to make you embrace hatred.
Only YOU have that power.

And if you are not a hater... then you dont take this message personal.

If the shoe fits... you wear it. If not.. you dont.

[jhildebrand]

Generally means there is going to come some criticism or strong opinion. Thats what that statement means. Everyone uses it, it doesn't "change the argument" in the least.

Have you heard and listened to the Boomer piece? He absolutely goes too far by getting into the God stuff. As usual, Boomer was being his A Hole self which he is known for. Had he kept it to football I would have been fine with it! He didn't and that is where he crossed the line-even sandy clough a stout Tebow critic and Alfred Williams agreed as much.



Ok. So why do people get so upset every time someone shares an opposing view? Whats the HARM in broadcasting a strong opinion that doesn't compliment the guy? I PROMISE you, that if Steve Young came out and just PRAISED Tebow to the highest of compliments, people would be saying "see see" and pointing about hwo Great Steve is. Its the fact that Hoge and Boomer say "mean" things about Tebow that get people up in arms, and its silly.

No it is because they cross the line. Again, Hoge was just fine in his original assessment. It was all the bull crap that came after. Hoge now looks like a complete ignoramus with his most recent comments that Denver should call McD and orchestrate a trade with St. Louis as IF A OC has any such capacity. That most recent piece/dialogue with Schefter had nothing to do with Tebow and everything with Hoge making sure his name got out there again.

Boomer went way too far with the God talk. Jaws was critical. Fine. Shoot EVEN URBAN MEYER was critical. FINE. But keep it to football.



BECAUSE people already knew Elway could throw!! ITs not like John was coming out of college with people doubting is accuracy! They put down a TON about John after his rookie season. He was criticized BIG TIME in Denver and all over the nation. If you don't remember that, then you might want to rethink.

Tebow was 66.7% or greater in completion percentage in College for 3 of 4 years and 64% in the one year not 66%. Who are we to question his accuracy? :confused: The reality is John was questioned and rightfully so. The difference is he was allowed to play and prove himself.

That is all any of the Tebow crowd wants. That and to keep the argument the same. If you want to make excuses for Orton's numbers i.e. Dropped passes than be damn sure you account for the same when discussing Tebow. But people don't!

[Lancane]

Like you i will listen to a QB. But when a guy like Boomer says a guy cant be a NFL QB after just 3 starts just cant be taken seriously. This coming from a guy who said that Manning would be another Dan Mariino and not win a SB. :lol:

Uh yea, he sure knows his stuff. Sorry, not every talking head is good at analyzing players. Ill even take the critique of his former college coach over Boomer and Urban was hard on him as well.

I hate to chime in North, but Esiason was almost correct, if not for that one Super Bowl victory, then Manning would be looking a lot like Marino, as an elite quarterback that couldn't win the big dance. I am not saying that he's perfect in an analytical sense, but let's give him some credit...it's not like Manning has led the Colts to Super Bowl after Super Bowl like Elway and Kelly, or like Elway won back-to-back Championships...so I can see how he came up with such an argument.

I'm not a fan of Hoge, Kiper or Esiason, but I've also seen some bad analytical hoopla from those also supporting Tebow, Montana said that Alex Smith was the next great San Francisco quarterback, Young said JaMarcus Russell was so good that he'd change the AFC West, Gruden has backed several kids who have come in and fallen flat at the pro-level. Elway also said much in regards to Griese and Plummer, Cutler and then Orton. What I am getting at is that everyone needs to take what is said by everyone with a grain of salt, and they also need to realize that Tebow has to prove himself...not only to the fans, the league and all the journalists, but to himself most of all. If he can not, then one side is right and the other is wrong, it's people believing that what little has been seen is promising, well all I have to say is remember Griese, remember Van Pelt or Dilfer or even Stafford, they all looked promising to some only to completely fail for the most part, they have to prove more, if they can not then it's game over, some are just calling the game and feel that's what they see.

[Ravage!!!]

Have you heard and listened to the Boomer piece? He absolutely goes too far by getting into the God stuff. As usual, Boomer was being his A Hole self which he is known for. Had he kept it to football I would have been fine with it! He didn't and that is where he crossed the line-even sandy clough a stout Tebow critic and Alfred Williams agreed as much.

No it is because they cross the line. Again, Hoge was just fine in his original assessment. It was all the bull crap that came after. Hoge now looks like a complete ignoramus with his most recent comments that Denver should call McD and orchestrate a trade with St. Louis as IF A OC has any such capacity. That most recent piece/dialogue with Schefter had nothing to do with Tebow and everything with Hoge making sure his name got out there again.

Boomer went way too far with the God talk. Jaws was critical. Fine. Shoot EVEN URBAN MEYER was critical. FINE. But keep it to football.
Fair enough. Just seems we were having this same discussion about Hoge last week, and religion wasn't brought into that.


Tebow was 66.7% or greater in completion percentage in College for 3 of 4 years and 64% in the one year not 66%. Who are we to question his accuracy? :confused:
Because if/when you listen to guys that actually break down the film, Tebow is NOT an accurate passer in tight windows. He's not an accurate passer, hasn't even been an accurate passer in practice. Why is that so hard for people to accept? :confused:


The reality is John was questioned and rightfully so. The difference is he was allowed to play and prove himself.
Didn't you JUST question WHY Elway was NOT criticized?? :confused: Also, what does Hoge and Boomer's criticisms have ANYTHING to do with Tebow getting "play to prove himself?" Tebow is the one keeping himself from getting playing time. When Elway was criticized HEAVILY, he was criticized.. period. Fans didn't "give him time." Just not reality on that.


That is all any of the Tebow crowd wants. That and to keep the argument the same. If you want to make excuses for Orton's numbers i.e. Dropped passes than be damn sure you account for the same when discussing Tebow. But people don't!

HORSE SHIT!!! :lol: NO one is changing the argument, but somehow you keep telling us the argument has changed. Its as if you are making this stuff up. I've NEVER heard people give Orton a break because of dropped passes, and then turn around and put down Tebow :lol: Come on jhil. You are really emotionally wrapped up in this one, and its catching me by surprise because you are not normally this irrational.

[bcbronc]

Any level of success by Tim... will reflect badly on many in the media.

They are the ones in position to put their OPINIONS in front of millions of viewers/readers..
so many of the media are doing their level best to tank his career
before it even gets started..
'cause if Tim has some success...
their reputations will be damaged by it.



um yeah, no. Every talking head in whatever sport you choose is wrong more than they are right. We've seen lots of examples already "X said Y was gonna suck and he's awesome, lols!" or "X said Y was gonna rock and he's busted, lols!".

The thing is, it doesn't matter. No one that's thinking clearly expects the guy on NFLN or ESPN to be right all the time. If Tebow goes on to have a HOF career, it's not going to dent anyone who predicted him to fail's career. The fans, league and pundits will have already long moved on to the next epic storyline and the only people who'll even remember who predicted what regarding Tebow will be the ones bringing it back up to prove their newest favourite player will prove the "experts" right/wrong.

[jhildebrand]

I'm sorry. I just can't help but completely disagree. You will listen to Gruden, who has NEVER played in the NFl nor has he ever played QB, but won't listen to Hoge who HAS played in the NFL, but because he's never played QB.

But he coached Gannon who wasn 't much until his time with Gruden. He also went to a SB thanks to Gruden.

He coached a guy named Brad Johnson to a SB victory. The guy knows QB's.

I don't know about you but I look for more than just past player's when it comes to their opinion. I value those who played and coach i.e. Herm Edwards even more! Herm was spot on IMO.



Montana who has PROVED to be an absolutely HORRENDOUS analyzer and commentator purely because he did play QB.

So the guy can't call a game. Doesn't change the fact that he knows what it takes to be a QB in the NFL.



How is it that those that didn't play QB have lesser opinions? :confused:

I never said those that didn't play QB have lesser opinions. I value the opinion of many! I question the ability of Hoge to ACCURATELY assess what he is looking at based on the comments of Rich Gannon. That doesn't mean his opinion means less. When the guy doesn't know the play call, the reads/progressions HOW CAN HE ACCURATELY diagnose and analyze the play? :confused: Hoge refused to address that.

You want to critique footwork, by all means. But to act as though you know the play (nobody knows the Broncos playbook) the reads, the progressions, whether the WR/TE ran the right route, whether the O line blocked as they should have i.e. pulled not pulled etc... is beyond Hoge. It is all conjecture. When it comes to that, I will take a former QB's word with more thought than hoge.

Again, Hoge has proven with each subsequent opening of his mouth that he is anything BUT OBJECTIVE. That is why, now, that his opinion means less to me!



I guess there isn't a coach in the NFL that should give any kind of opinion on their QBs, then? I mean, how many NFL head-coaches have played QB in the NFL?

See gruden comments. Again, a coach can more accurately critique their own QB because they know the play, the reads, the progressions, the blocking assignments. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? :confused:

I don't even know why you are on this "it has to be a former player" bit. I never went down that road.

The bottom line for me is the argument changes . Period. I don't feel like the same criticisms and exceptions on Orton are allowed or applied to Tebow. If they would be, I wouldn't weigh in. But the fact remains that people continue to grant for Orton but not Tebow. They continue to bring religion in for Tebow (as if it is a bad thing) but turn a blind eye to Orton's JD ways.

[Northman]

Why does Boomer guessing that Manning woudl never win a Super Bowl take away from any credibility?

By comparing him to Marino? Thats a bold statement that turned out to be totally false. :lol:

Its not like he even analyzed "why" he thought that. He just said "i dont mean to be insulting, but Peyton is going to be the next Dan Marino and never win a SB". Thats terrible commentary dude. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

But he coached Gannon who wasn 't much until his time with Gruden. He also went to a SB thanks to Gruden.

He coached a guy named Brad Johnson to a SB victory. The guy knows QB's.
I never said he didn't, but your criteria for listening to him didn't jive wit the reason you said you listen to QBs. Gruden says nice things about EVERYONE. Just because he says something flowery about Tebow doesn't mean it holds a lot of water considering.


I don't know about you but I look for more than just past player's when it comes to their opinion. I value those who played and coach i.e. Herm Edwards even more! Herm was spot on IMO.
Not me. Herm was a terrible coach. Why would I listen to him, because he says something positive about the player I like?


So the guy can't call a game. Doesn't change the fact that he knows what it takes to be a QB in the NFL.
Right. But what makes you think he can analyze other talent? Because he played? Boomer played, but because he's not HoF he doesn't have the ability to analyze? How many NFL scouts were/are HoF QBs? I don't think Montana has an ounce of clout behind his talent evaluation.


I never said those that didn't play QB have lesser opinions. I value the opinion of many! I question the ability of Hoge to ACCURATELY assess what he is looking at based on the comments of Rich Gannon. That doesn't mean his opinion means less. When the guy doesn't know the play call, the reads/progressions HOW CAN HE ACCURATELY diagnose and analyze the play? :confused: Hoge refused to address that.
This isn't true at all. Jaws breaks down film on EVERY team in teh NFL without knowing the "play" called. Guess what, when you know the game, you can very easily see what the play that is called by simply watching and hitting rewind. Jaws can tell you INSTANTLY where the pass SHOULD have gone and what audible SHOULD have been made, and what hot read SHOULD have been hit....because the QB position is played the same not matter WHAT system!!

EVERY team runs the same plays. EVERY WR runs the same routes. Every RB on every team runs through the same holes. So when you are breaking down film, you can see what the defense was doing and where the pass should have gone because of the coverage given. You can see if/when the QB made the right read, the right pass, or if he completely misread the defense.

Its completely inaccurate to say that Hoge couldn't make evaluations based one what you just said. That just shows Gannon is a complete moron in his own right.


You want to critique footwork, by all means. But to act as though you know the play (nobody knows the Broncos playbook) the reads, the progressions, whether the WR/TE ran the right route, whether the O line blocked as they should have i.e. pulled not pulled etc... is beyond Hoge. It is all conjecture. When it comes to that, I will take a former QB's word with more thought than hoge.
Already discussed this, and its not hard to see what is supposed to be after watching the game film. Its quite easy when you know what you are looking at. EVERY team runs the same routes, same runs, makes the same reads, and hits the WR that fits the coverage the defense is giving you. Hoge ABSOLUTELY has more than enough knowledge to make assessments on this. Just as Jaws does, and just like everyone else that breaks down game film.


See gruden comments. Again, a coach can more accurately critique their own QB because they know the play, the reads, the progressions, the blocking assignments. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? :confused:
Because you are incorrect. Thats how its hard to comprehend.


The bottom line for me is the argument changes . Period. I don't feel like the same criticisms and exceptions on Orton are allowed or applied to Tebow. If they would be, I wouldn't weigh in. But the fact remains that people continue to grant for Orton but not Tebow. They continue to bring religion in for Tebow (as if it is a bad thing) but turn a blind eye to Orton's JD ways.
jhil, this is just absurd. The argument doesn't change. People/fans have been JUST as hard on Orton as they have Tebow, and I'm pretty confident you know this :coffee:

[jhildebrand]

Fair enough. Just seems we were having this same discussion about Hoge last week, and religion wasn't brought into that.

Yes but Hoge with each subsequent comment has shown himself to be a complete ass without any OBJECTIVITY whatsoever.

Again, I was fine with Hoge's initial assessment. I had no problem with that. Some question his delivery and the way he handled himself with DMAC later on and I see that but didn't put too much into that portion of it.

But when a guy insists the Broncos need to call an OC to work out a trade, I tune out. Tell me the last OC to orchestrate and pull off a trade in the NFL. When a guy tells me an NFL team of grown ass men who are professionals are going to splinter and fall apart because Tebow will be on the sideline (if the team is losing) is horseshit to me.

***Newsflash**** the team was losing last year and Tebow was on the side line. The team didn't splinter and fall apart. We had the worst coach and caught in a cheating scandal and the team didn't fall apart!

Why would this year just happen to be different? :confused:



Because if/when you listen to guys that actually break down the film, Tebow is NOT an accurate passer in tight windows. He's not an accurate passer, hasn't even been an accurate passer in practice. Why is that so hard for people to accept? :confused:

Like North pointed out-BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE WHO you want to believe! Dave Razzano a 20 year scout on the fan who was in the 49er organization during back to back SB's looked at all the film on Tebow and had no problem qualifying him as an accurate QB especially late in games.

Tebow played in the SEC which is the best and toughest division in college and was accurate. It isn't like he had ridiculous windows to fit the ball in. The guy was 66.7% average. Plenty accurate for me to want to see if he can be accurate here in the NFL with time.



Didn't you JUST question WHY Elway was NOT criticized?? :confused:

No. You clearly didn't follow the point. I simply mentioned that Elway after his entire rookie season was only 47.5% accurate. I dont recall people wanting to write him off after one season let alone 3 games!

Elway was allowed to play and improve which he did. With what the team took to get him it should have been that way. With what this team has in Tebow they should do the same IMHO. Orton is gone. Why let the guy up his FA value at our team's expense? he is 5-21 in his last 26. What don't we know about him already? You really think Orton will all of a sudden be a 10-6 QB this year?

He has shown to quit when it gets rough (KC and AZ games last year) he has been smeared by division opponents consistently. I don't see why all of a sudden people believe Orton will be anything but what we have seen this year.



HORSE SHIT!!! :lol: NO one is changing the argument, but somehow you keep telling us the argument has changed. Its as if you are making this stuff up. I've NEVER heard people give Orton a break because of dropped passes, and then turn around and put down Tebow :lol: Come on jhil. You are really emotionally wrapped up in this one, and its catching me by surprise because you are not normally this irrational.

I heard people discounting Ortons 2 for 6 performance here and mania after the Dallas game every way imaginable. How he was really better than 2 for 6 because so and so dropped a pass.

There was one who even went so far as to insist Tebow's deep ball to Willis in the Dallas game was lucky and that Orton would have led him (when has Orton actually done that). Then this week NOBODY wants to grant Tebow the one dropped pass in his 1 for 2 that was a PERFECTLY placed ball (watch the play again since you question his accuracy) after standing in the pocket and the WR dropped it!

People bring up the "almost interceptions" all the time (something I loathe because every QB has them) but doesn't want to mention it when talking about Orton. Look at Orton's first pass in the Dallas game. He saw ware right in his face. Orton simply forced the play. He was lucky it wasn't a pick 6. It was a broken play from the second the ball was snapped. Orton showed NO INGENUITY. He showed his normal one read and dump self. Shit, Orton didn't even pump fake to get ware in the air. HE simply threw it in the guy's breadbasket with NO CLEAR CHANCE OF A COMPLETION.

That is changing the argument. When we criticise one player for something and turn a blind eye to the exact same thing for another! Orton's performance this week was labeled SPECTACULAR! I saw a first pass that was a terribly thrown ball to Lloyd. As usual Lloyd made a spectacular catch to make orton look good. I saw orton actually step up in the pocket when it was collapsing only to bump into Kuper and simply fall down and abandon the play giving Dareus his sack. I saw Orton at the 1:55 mark go 1 read and dump to Moreno (which is the big knock on Orton) despite Lloyd being WIDE OPEN 10 yards farther down field. I saw orton stumble coming out of center! He wasn't stepped on. He simply tripped over his own feet. This is an 8 year vet that should be further along. Yet people turn a blind eye to it and call him spectacular! :rolleyes: Basically, I see the same Orton I have always seen. Orton hasn't even managed to get his blocked passes down-something seattle should have no problem with this weekend!

For me, I could care less if Tebow doesn't pan out. I would much rather see if he is worth the king's ransom McMoron gave up and move on if he isnt than sit here and watch Orton tank again-which he will!

[Ravage!!!]

By comparing him to Marino? Thats a bold statement that turned out to be totally false. :lol:

Its not like he even analyzed "why" he thought that. He just said "i dont mean to be insulting, but Peyton is going to be the next Dan Marino and never win a SB". Thats terrible commentary dude. :lol:

How is that terrible? How is that different than thousands of others making predictions?

As lan just pointed out, was he really that far off? Manning has been to HOW many playoffs now and what is his record? Its not good. Since when does someone have to give "reason" for having an opinion? I think the statement alone tells the reasons behind his opinion, and didn't need explanation.

I remember hearing Walsh brag about Drunkenmiller, saying that he would be the next "joe montana." Thats a pretty bold statement that just turned bout completely wrong. I guess he doesnt' know what he's talking about either.

[BroncoWave]

Yet Montana says he shouldnt change a thing. Depends on "who" you want to believe i guess right? The other thing this isnt about Boomer talking about mechanics Rav, this is about Boomer already writing off a guy after 3 games when Boomer himself had far more time to be "NFL ready" while playing sparingly with the starting QB's until he was ready. Most people know Tebow is still working at his issues but when you listen to guys like Hoge and Boomer they arent claiming that. They are saying he is not an NFL QB. That my friend is bad commentating and full of MASSIVE holes. I know you dont care for the kid and dont think he will succed but surely you know the difference between honest criticism and BS right?

Hodge also said, almost verbatim, you can not win with Tim Tebow as your starting QB, now or at any point in the future. I'm sorry but if you think that is fair objective analysis then you are just lying to yourself.

[DenBronx]

dammit, i always miss the good internet fights.


all the fun stuff got deleted.

[BroncoWave]

For one, I'm not talking about Bronco fans... I'm talkign about TEBOW fans.

Two, I'm not talking about thaty OVER-HYPE bothering Bronco fans, but EVERYONE around the nation. Commentators all ovr the nation hear Tebow fans put him up on the pedestal... bragging about his greatness, and how he's going to "change the position." Its not just Bronco nation that hears this, and because of the over-hype by the Tebowmaniacs, it has put a red circle on the back of his head.

Huh? What national commentator said he was going to "change the position" on the NFL level? I have never heard a single one say that.

[jhildebrand]

Hodge also said, almost verbatim, you can not win with Tim Tebow as your starting QB, now or at any point in the future. I'm sorry but if you think that is fair objective analysis then you are just lying to yourself.

Apparently, that is just Hodge sticking up for his opinion :noidea:

I call it ridiculous. Nobody can say NEVER in a league where Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer have won with the right teams around them.

[PAINTERDAVE]

um yeah, no. Every talking head in whatever sport you choose is wrong more than they are right. We've seen lots of examples already "X said Y was gonna suck and he's awesome, lols!" or "X said Y was gonna rock and he's busted, lols!".

The thing is, it doesn't matter. No one that's thinking clearly expects the guy on NFLN or ESPN to be right all the time. If Tebow goes on to have a HOF career, it's not going to dent anyone who predicted him to fail's career. The fans, league and pundits will have already long moved on to the next epic storyline and the only people who'll even remember who predicted what regarding Tebow will be the ones bringing it back up to prove their newest favourite player will prove the "experts" right/wrong.

Then it must be their own personal ego at stake.

Hoge and Boomer... what will they feel like inside if Tebow finds some success?
Smaller inside.. kinda broken and mean... like they appear to many of us now.

Both of these guys have crossed the lines of profesional critique,,
and they have made it personal... and staked their reputations on it.

You say their reputations wont suffer if Tim finds success..
then that makes them USELESS in my book.

Just two mouths spewing crap is what you are saying, I guess...
no responsibility for their bull crap.

I get it. I agree.. they are worthless...
Just two more washed up has beens...
Gotcha.

[jhildebrand]

Ultimately I am just done with Orton. I get tired of people saying things like:

"If he only had a defense, and a running game, and time to throw the ball the guy would win." Well no shit! If that were the case, most qb's would win!

The fact is Orton had the #1 D for 8 weeks of the 09 season. That team went 6-0 because the D was pitching complete shutouts in the second half of games!!! Not because of Orton. Shoot, look at the read to Marshall in the cinci game! Bad throw! Not accurate! Tipped as usual! Stokley made the play.

In fact of the 6-0 no less than 4 of the wins had little to do with Orton and more to do with someone else.

That 09 D finished 7th overall! In the 2nd half of the season they were in the lead or within 7 in many of the games at the start of the 4th quarter. The D had 5 TO's in the Indy game. They had Oak twice, a BAD KC team, and washington on the schedule and only needed ONE WIN to make the PO's. Orton couldn't do that. I am sorry but if you can't win one game with the 7th overall D and a 5 TO game, then you aren't very good! BUT DON'T CRY TO ME: "IF HE ONLY HAD A D!!!"

People last year all cried about the O line. Tebow played behind the same line and was more productive. Yet people don't want to acknowledge that. They want to continue to make excuses for Orton.

Finally, I saw a guy who quit in the 2nd KC and AZ games. Anybody who quits on a season gets the book closed on them for me!

[PAINTERDAVE]

How is that terrible? How is that different than thousands of others making predictions?

As lan just pointed out, was he really that far off? Manning has been to HOW many playoffs now and what is his record? Its not good. Since when does someone have to give "reason" for having an opinion? I think the statement alone tells the reasons behind his opinion, and didn't need explanation.

I remember hearing Walsh brag about Drunkenmiller, saying that he would be the next "joe montana." Thats a pretty bold statement that just turned bout completely wrong. I guess he doesnt' know what he's talking about either.

Bragging a guy up.. predicting success for a guy...
and being wrong...

is a far cry from ATTEMPTING to sabotage
a young guys chances at his life long dream.

They dont just say.. "I doubt he is succesful.."
They go WAY beyond that... and are activly trying to
influence the demise of his career.

Hodge smugly suggested the broncos cut Tim...
tried to make it seem like the "intelligent" thing to do...
using his power of the media to try to manipulate the demise of the kids career.

Just plain mean spirited and negative to the max.

[bcbronc]

Then it must be their own personal ego at stake.

Hoge and Boomer... what will they feel like inside if Tebow finds some success?

Both of these guys have crossed the lines of profesional critique,,
and they have made it personal... and staked their reputations on it.

You say their reputations wont suffer if Tim finds success..
then that makes them USELESS in my book.

Just two mouths spewing crap is what you are saying, I guess...
no responsibility for their bull crap.

I get it. I agree.. they are worthless...
Just two more washed up has beens...
Gotcha.

sure dude. They're ugly and have funny hair cuts too. It might be in your best interest to pay less attention to the pundits until you're better able to handle it. I mean calling them names over the Internet...really?

:coffee:

[PAINTERDAVE]

Ultimately I am just done with Orton. I get tired of people saying things like:

"If he only had a defense, and a running game, and time to throw the ball the guy would win." Well no shit! If that were the case, most qb's would win!

The fact is Orton had the #1 D for 8 weeks of the 09 season. That team went 6-0 because the D was pitching complete shutouts in the second half of games!!! Not because of Orton. Shoot, look at the read to Marshall in the cinci game! Bad throw! Not accurate! Tipped as usual! Stokley made the play.

In fact of the 6-0 no less than 4 of the wins had little to do with Orton and more to do with someone else.

That 09 D finished 7th overall! In the 2nd half of the season they were in the lead or within 7 in many of the games at the start of the 4th quarter. The D had 5 TO's in the Indy game. They had Oak twice, a BAD KC team, and washington on the schedule and only needed ONE WIN to make the PO's. Orton couldn't do that. I am sorry but if you can't win one game with the 7th overall D and a 5 TO game, then you aren't very good! BUT DON'T CRY TO ME: "IF HE ONLY HAD A D!!!"

People last year all cried about the O line. Tebow played behind the same line and was more productive. Yet people don't want to acknowledge that. They want to continue to make excuses for Orton.

Finally, I saw a guy who quit in the 2nd KC and AZ games. Anybody who quits on a season gets the book closed on them for me!

For the record.. Kyle threw in the towel in that
Raider Debacle as well...
shortly after his pick 6 and the fumble...

Just sayin'...

[jhildebrand]

For the record.. Kyle threw in the towel in that
Raider Debacle as well...
shortly after his pick 6 and the fumble...

Just sayin'...

Possibly. All I know is it was evident in the KC and ESPECIALLY the AZ game that Orton could care less about the rest of the season from that point on.

I don't want to hear about the ribs either! Orton by his own admission said he was throwing 60 yard bombs at practice. I think the ribs were just a sales job by the staff.

The guy quit and still had a HUGE sense of entitlement coming into this season! He is 5-21 as a starter in his last 26. What else do we really need to see? :confused: Why will this year just HAPPEN to be different? :confused:

Forgive me but I am not buying it.

[PAINTERDAVE]

sure dude. They're ugly and have funny hair cuts too. It might be in your best interest to pay less attention to the pundits until you're better able to handle it. I mean calling them names over the Internet...really?

:coffee:

Not name calling..
just repsonding to the post, that responded to mine,
that said their reputations will not suffer...

I was drawing conclusions based upon that assumption.

I can handle it just fine... thanks.
I am loving life.

By the way...Fox has set them straight.

I made no personal slurs on their appearance.. you attributed that motive to me.

The only name I can see that I called was a description...
they both ARE "has beens." Not a "name" called.

My points are valid... The both ARE mean spirited when it comes to Tebow.

Sorry you felt the need to come back at me with a superior sounding tone...

your smug reply is a failure as far as I can see.

[bcbronc]

Not name calling..
just repsonding to the post, that responded to mine,
that said their reputations will not suffer...

I was drawing conclusions based upon that assumption.

I can handle it just fine... thanks.
I am loving life.

By the way...Fox has set them straight.

I made no personal slurs on their appearance.. you attributed that motive to me.

The only name I can see that I called was a description...
they both ARE "has beens." Not a "name" called.

My points are valid... The both ARE mean spirited when it comes to Tebow.

Sorry you felt the need to come back at me with a superior sounding tone...

your smug reply is a failure as far as I can see.

Useless? Worthless? Washed up has beens? Ya you're doing fine. Just don't let your tears ruin your keyboard. :smug:

[PAINTERDAVE]

Useless? Worthless? Washed up has beens? Ya you're doing fine. Just don't let your tears ruin your keyboard. :smug:

Yeah.. if they can spew crap..
and it has no effect on their reputations..
then they do have no use (useless)
and their opinions have no worth ( worthless)..

me.. I argued that their reputaions would suffer.

I was simply drawing conclusions based upon the idea that was presented
that they would NOt suffer any degredation of their reputations.

NOT name calling... despite you saying so.



The washed up has been line...
I'll grant that it may be borderline...
but it is ACCURATE..
and descriptive of who Merril Hodge is..
of who Boomer is.

I never got personal with you...

you came at me on a personal level.. both posts.

I got no beef with you...

you can run with it or not.

I'll sleep good either way.

[BroncoStud]

Useless? Worthless? Washed up has beens? Ya you're doing fine. Just don't let your tears ruin your keyboard. :smug:

You sure seem to be the one making this personal... :elefant:

[Bullgator]

Tebow has never had a bad game.

Tebow has never shown in a game that he doesn't belong on this level.

He dominated 4 years of high school when people said he couldn't, that doesn't count.

He dominated 4 years of the best college football has to offer when people said he couldn't and THAT "doesn't count"

He played 3 games as a rookie with no run game, no D AND NO HEAD COACH! Balled like his hair was on fire... in a stunted and limited season he scored 11 TDs with only 3 TO... threw for a 300+ yard game and holds the record for the longest rushing TD in broncos history by a QB in the first quarter of his first start, at the black hole and had the highest QBR of any rook... And all that dont count either!

He played in 1 preseason game and went 6/7 91 yards in a quarter of play and THAT didnt count... WELL WTF!!! every lick of football this kid have EVER played dont count!

But yet 2 weeks of preseason camp counts all the sudden?! THATS enough to call him a bust and nationally rape the kid and say he cant play?

[Thnikkaman]

I hate when people throw around the word "intelligence." ;)

I dislike wihen people throw around the word "throw".

[Tned]

I dislike wihen people throw around the word "throw".

I hate when people throw around the word "dislike."

[TXBRONC]

Just because he's hasn't always praised Tebow doesn't make him a hater. I think he's been a proponent for Orton yet it still didn't stop Orton is ranked in the middle of pack among starting quarterbacks in the League (18-25 I think). That wasn't just his assessment he did it based talking with other front offices around the League. It was in one of his Mailbags a few months back and when it posted here I remember him being called a hack. I don't always agree with Klis but I don't question his integrity.

[vandammage13]

This isn't true at all. Jaws breaks down film on EVERY team in teh NFL without knowing the "play" called. Guess what, when you know the game, you can very easily see what the play that is called by simply watching and hitting rewind. Jaws can tell you INSTANTLY where the pass SHOULD have gone and what audible SHOULD have been made, and what hot read SHOULD have been hit....because the QB position is played the same not matter WHAT system!!

I wonder if Jaws had this ability as a rookie, or if it was something he developed after decades of studying the position?

What do you think?

[Agent of Orange]

Ultimately I am just done with Orton. I get tired of people saying things like:

"If he only had a defense, and a running game, and time to throw the ball the guy would win." Well no shit! If that were the case, most qb's would win!

The fact is Orton had the #1 D for 8 weeks of the 09 season. That team went 6-0 because the D was pitching complete shutouts in the second half of games!!! Not because of Orton. Shoot, look at the read to Marshall in the cinci game! Bad throw! Not accurate! Tipped as usual! Stokley made the play.

In fact of the 6-0 no less than 4 of the wins had little to do with Orton and more to do with someone else.

That 09 D finished 7th overall! In the 2nd half of the season they were in the lead or within 7 in many of the games at the start of the 4th quarter. The D had 5 TO's in the Indy game. They had Oak twice, a BAD KC team, and washington on the schedule and only needed ONE WIN to make the PO's. Orton couldn't do that. I am sorry but if you can't win one game with the 7th overall D and a 5 TO game, then you aren't very good! BUT DON'T CRY TO ME: "IF HE ONLY HAD A D!!!"

People last year all cried about the O line. Tebow played behind the same line and was more productive. Yet people don't want to acknowledge that. They want to continue to make excuses for Orton.

Finally, I saw a guy who quit in the 2nd KC and AZ games. Anybody who quits on a season gets the book closed on them for me!


I get sick of people speaking in the possessive when it comes to Orton. "If he only had"...a QB is part of the machinery just like every one else.

If anything, people should be saying "If only Ryan Clady had a better QB".

[Ravage!!!]

I wonder if Jaws had this ability as a rookie, or if it was something he developed after decades of studying the position?

What do you think?

You need to learn how to read, first. This wasn't even referring to Tebow.

[TXBRONC]

Tebow has never had a bad game.

Tebow has never shown in a game that he doesn't belong on this level.

He dominated 4 years of high school when people said he couldn't, that doesn't count.

He dominated 4 years of the best college football has to offer when people said he couldn't and THAT "doesn't count"

He played 3 games as a rookie with no run game, no D AND NO HEAD COACH! Balled like his hair was on fire... in a stunted and limited season he scored 11 TDs with only 3 TO... threw for a 300+ yard game and holds the record for the longest rushing TD in broncos history by a QB in the first quarter of his first start, at the black hole and had the highest QBR of any rook... And all that dont count either!

He played in 1 preseason game and went 6/7 91 yards in a quarter of play and THAT didnt count... WELL WTF!!! every lick of football this kid have EVER played dont count!

But yet 2 weeks of preseason camp counts all the sudden?! THATS enough to call him a bust and nationally rape the kid and say he cant play?


Yep high school and college stats don't count. There have been several people myself included have told you that those stats don't matter. I understand it frustrates you but it wont change. You might as well accept for what it is.

If you're assuming that because he's done some good things in two camps and three official that those things don't assessment you're making a big mistake. Yeah those things count but so do the bad things. Fox is paid to make those judgements and I'll bet dollars to cold dog turds his judgements are based on what he and his coaches see not what jerks like Hoge say.

I like Tebow and I'm rooting for him but missing an entire off season where he could've worked with McCoy and Gase was a nut buster. Yes he worked out on his own but not anywhere near the same as working his offensive coordinator and position coach.

[Ravage!!!]

LOTS and LOTS of players have dominated HS and College and failed in the NFL. It doesn't matter what they did at the lower levels. That will never matter when talking about the NFL because those wins don't carry over. NO ONE cares what he did in HS and College anymore.

[TXBRONC]

LOTS and LOTS of players have dominated HS and College and failed in the NFL. It doesn't matter what they did at the lower levels. That will never matter when talking about the NFL because those wins don't carry over. NO ONE cares what he did in HS and College anymore.

This true, but for Hoge and Boomer to say Tebow will never develop into a starting quarterback is flat out wrong. They might right at the end of the day but they predict the future than anyone else can.

[Ravage!!!]

This true, but for Hoge and Boomer to say Tebow will never develop into a starting quarterback is flat out wrong. They might right at the end of the day but they predict the future than anyone else can.

Its not wrong until they are proved wrong. Until then, its their right to guess say what they believe. ITs no different than guessing who's going to win the Super Bowl.. or those guessing who's going to be the top college prospects.

They aren't saying they can predict the future, they are giving their opinion as to how they see it ending up. Thats not wrong.

[Mike]

More from Woody Paige...

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18752495


Much has been made of Orton's lack of a running game and a miserable defense in such starts as Oakland (59-14), San Diego (35-14) and Arizona (43-14). Tebow had the same backs and defense at Oakland (39-23) and at home against Houston (24-23) and San Diego (33-28). In the 13 games Orton started, the Broncos scored touchdowns inside the red zone on 17 of 104 trips (one on a Tebow run). With Tebow as the starter, the Broncos scored touchdowns 6-of-8 times inside the 20.

This stood out to me.

[Agent of Orange]

LOTS and LOTS of players have dominated HS and College and failed in the NFL. It doesn't matter what they did at the lower levels. That will never matter when talking about the NFL because those wins don't carry over. NO ONE cares what he did in HS and College anymore.

His NFL QB rating is currently in the 80s. And that was as a rookie in the least ideal of circumstances. So far in the preseason he's 7/9.

[Agent of Orange]

More from Woody Paige...

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_18752495



This stood out to me.

Yeah, in the end, it's not about performing drills in training camp. It's about helping an offense perform in actual games. Since we haven't had real games for a while, people have forgotten this.

[BroncoWave]

Its not wrong until they are proved wrong. Until then, its their right to guess say what they believe. ITs no different than guessing who's going to win the Super Bowl.. or those guessing who's going to be the top college prospects.

They aren't saying they can predict the future, they are giving their opinion as to how they see it ending up. Thats not wrong.

Except they aren't presenting it as an opinion, they are presenting it as if it were a fact. Hodge doesn't say "I don't think Tebow can play QB" or "In my opinion...." he flat out states "Tim Tebow is horrible and will never win as a QB". And he acts like the person he is talking to is a moron (see the piece with Schefter) if they disagree with him. He is a disrespectful ass who has made it his mission to spearhead the Tebow hate campaign. Hell, when he was asked on sports center if he'd rather have Tebow or Pryor, he REFUSED to answer the question because he didn't want to be forced to have to say something positive about one of the two. I don't see how you can watch the piece with Schefter and the Pryor/Tebow piece and say that he is being fair and objective about Tebow.

[vandammage13]

You need to learn how to read, first. This wasn't even referring to Tebow.

Perhaps you need to learn how to read...I never even mentioned Tebow in that post.

Just stated that Jaws ability to diagnose plays is probably far superior to what it was in his early playing days.

[vandammage13]

Its not wrong until they are proved wrong. Until then, its their right to guess say what they believe. ITs no different than guessing who's going to win the Super Bowl.. or those guessing who's going to be the top college prospects.

They aren't saying they can predict the future, they are giving their opinion as to how they see it ending up. Thats not wrong.

So I guess anyone on here or in the media can say that Tebow is going to be a HOF QB and win multiple SBs...and until Tebow is done playing and out of the league they aren't wrong because it isn't proven.

Sounds a little rediculous doesn't it?? Anyway, many of these guys (Hoge in particular) aren't presenting their views as opinions but are speaking in finite terms....Like it is already a done deal after 15 months in the league.

[Ravage!!!]

Except they aren't presenting it as an opinion, they are presenting it as if it were a fact. Hodge doesn't say "I don't think Tebow can play QB" or "In my opinion...." he flat out states "Tim Tebow is horrible and will never win as a QB". And he acts like the person he is talking to is a moron (see the piece with Schefter) if they disagree with him. He is a disrespectful ass who has made it his mission to spearhead the Tebow hate campaign. Hell, when he was asked on sports center if he'd rather have Tebow or Pryor, he REFUSED to answer the question because he didn't want to be forced to have to say something positive about one of the two. I don't see how you can watch the piece with Schefter and the Pryor/Tebow piece and say that he is being fair and objective about Tebow.

They don't have to present it as an opinion because thats a GIVEN. Despite people around here trying to demand that you put "in my opinion" in your post, its not necessary. Its and understood.

As far as him having an "objective" ...thats just YOUR opinion, but you didn't STATE it as an opinion. Are you just an overbearing ass? :wink:

I would take the fact that he didn't answer the question, as one being he didn't want either one of them.

I know Hoge is rough and gruff and comes right at you with his opinions. But is this the first time you've seen Hoge? Thats how he always is. This isn't new, this isn't different. He didn't all of a sudden change his personna because he has some kind of "personal" agenda against Tim, despite you guys wanting to believe this.

HE JUST NOT BELIEVE TEBOW will EVER BE a starting QB and doesn't believe (as MANY NFL PLAYERS DON'T) that Tebow deserves this kind of press when he hasn't done diddly squat in the NFL.
He's made his statements, he's firm behind his statements, and he's standing behind them. So what? If he's wrong he's wrong. Then you guys can throw his opinion in his face and laugh. If he's right, then what? YOu are going to say "yeah, but he didn't have to say it so mean."

He doesn't HAVE to say things nicely. You WANT him to, because its about Tebow.

[TXBRONC]

Its not wrong until they are proved wrong. Until then, its their right to guess say what they believe. ITs no different than guessing who's going to win the Super Bowl.. or those guessing who's going to be the top college prospects.

They aren't saying they can predict the future, they are giving their opinion as to how they see it ending up. Thats not wrong.

I agree it's their opinioin but they stated as a fact and it isn't. They don't what his future holds any better than we do.

[BroncoWave]

So I guess anyone on here or in the media can say that Tebow is going to be a HOF QB and win multiple SBs...and until Tebow is done playing and out of the league they aren't wrong because it isn't proven.

Sounds a little rediculous doesn't it?? Anyway, many of these guys (Hoge in particular) aren't presenting their views as opinions but are speaking in finite terms....Like it is already a done deal after 15 months in the league.

Exactly. And once again, I don't see how you can watch his piece with Schefter and the Pryor/Tebow bit and defend the way he is "analyzing" Tebow. It's complete unprofessional garbage.

Here are the videos again for those who missed them:

PIywClAcF9U

GoEpAVK2XXk

[BroncoWave]

They don't have to present it as an opinion because thats a GIVEN. Despite people around here trying to demand that you put "in my opinion" in your post, its not necessary. Its and understood.

As far as him having an "objective" ...thats just YOUR opinion, but you didn't STATE it as an opinion. Are you just an overbearing ass? :wink:

I would take the fact that he didn't answer the question, as one being he didn't want either one of them.

I know Hoge is rough and gruff and comes right at you with his opinions. But is this the first time you've seen Hoge? Thats how he always is. This isn't new, this isn't different. He didn't all of a sudden change his personna because he has some kind of "personal" agenda against Tim, despite you guys wanting to believe this.

HE JUST NOT BELIEVE TEBOW will EVER BE a starting QB and doesn't believe (as MANY NFL PLAYERS DON'T) that Tebow deserves this kind of press when he hasn't done diddly squat in the NFL.
He's made his statements, he's firm behind his statements, and he's standing behind them. So what? If he's wrong he's wrong. Then you guys can throw his opinion in his face and laugh. If he's right, then what? YOu are going to say "yeah, but he didn't have to say it so mean."

He doesn't HAVE to say things nicely. You WANT him to, because its about Tebow.

I have always thought Hoge was a d-bag and a moron. This only reaffirms that thought. He's ALWAYS struck me as a person who likes to be controversial just for attention instead of someone who provides honest, objective analysis.

[Krplboy]

Wasn't AAron Rodgers a high first rounder? He was a back up to the most durable qb ever (he who shal not be named) for a couple of years. Why is it so important for TT to play now?

[Agent of Orange]

They don't have to present it as an opinion because thats a GIVEN. Despite people around here trying to demand that you put "in my opinion" in your post, its not necessary. Its and understood.

As far as him having an "objective" ...thats just YOUR opinion, but you didn't STATE it as an opinion. Are you just an overbearing ass? :wink:

I would take the fact that he didn't answer the question, as one being he didn't want either one of them.

I know Hoge is rough and gruff and comes right at you with his opinions. But is this the first time you've seen Hoge? Thats how he always is. This isn't new, this isn't different. He didn't all of a sudden change his personna because he has some kind of "personal" agenda against Tim, despite you guys wanting to believe this.

HE JUST NOT BELIEVE TEBOW will EVER BE a starting QB and doesn't believe (as MANY NFL PLAYERS DON'T) that Tebow deserves this kind of press when he hasn't done diddly squat in the NFL.
He's made his statements, he's firm behind his statements, and he's standing behind them. So what? If he's wrong he's wrong. Then you guys can throw his opinion in his face and laugh. If he's right, then what? YOu are going to say "yeah, but he didn't have to say it so mean."

He doesn't HAVE to say things nicely. You WANT him to, because its about Tebow.

You could make a fair case for why it shouldn't be necessary to say, "in my opinion". But the truth is, America is a nation of sheep and nothing exemplifies this better than what has gone on in recent weeks with Tebow. Just look at all the people doing 180s on this forum. People are aligning themselves with "experts" in advance of what they think will happen. Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. People should, in theory, be able to determine on their own what is opinion in most cases. But modifying ones language could also lessen the herd effect that we've been seeing.

[BroncoWave]

Wasn't AAron Rodgers a high first rounder? He was a back up to the most durable qb ever (he who shal not be named) for a couple of years. Why is it so important for TT to play now?

Because ESPN wants ratings and creating controversy about one of the most popular players in the NFL drives ratings. They don't care about being fair, reasonable, or objective. They just want their content to get as many views as possible. I feel sorry for people who let ESPN drive their opinions. Think for yourselves people!

[Agent of Orange]

Wasn't AAron Rodgers a high first rounder? He was a back up to the most durable qb ever (he who shal not be named) for a couple of years. Why is it so important for TT to play now?

You make a great point. But what's obscuring this is the piling on and alleged leaks to the media aimed at slandering Tebow so the anger will dissipate in advance.

[vandammage13]

Wasn't AAron Rodgers a high first rounder? He was a back up to the most durable qb ever (he who shal not be named) for a couple of years. Why is it so important for TT to play now?

For the record, Merril Hoge thought Brian Brohm had more upside than Aaron Rodgers if that says anything about his ability to evaluate QB talent.

[Ravage!!!]

So I guess anyone on here or in the media can say that Tebow is going to be a HOF QB and win multiple SBs...and until Tebow is done playing and out of the league they aren't wrong because it isn't proven.

Sounds a little rediculous doesn't it?? Anyway, many of these guys (Hoge in particular) aren't presenting their views as opinions but are speaking in finite terms....Like it is already a done deal after 15 months in the league.

Sounds ridiculous? No. It sounds like a prediction. We've heard it from MANY fans of Tebow. Do we get tired of hearing it, yes. But there you ahve it. YOu are tired of hearing negatives about Tim. Ok. Does that mean the "guessing" is "wrong?" Not whatsoever. Who cares what they believe will happen??

Again... its not necessary to say "in my opinion" or "I think".... because thats a GIVEN Fact. Everyone knows its an OPINION, and doesn't need fact to back it up or support it. Normally an opinion is taken as just that, an opinion. But when someone makes a STRONG opinion (or is in the media and it makes someone upset), then they are asked to defend, justify, or support their opinion because everyone wants them to say it "nicely" or in a "politically correct" manner. Then, if they stand behind their strong opinion and not back down from it, they are accused of having an "invested agenda" against Tebow.

If Hoge would have come out and made the "he's going to win multible Super Bowls" he would have gotten the same criticisms, other than the fact that most of you guys would say "here's another NFL analyst that supports Tim." Extremes, on both sides of the spectrum, always get the most responses.

Its why SOME writers write in the style of "sensationalism." Its meant to get response. Depending if the writer agrees with your opinion or not, its why people one week will love the featured writer, and next week will hate him. Merrill made some STRONG statements about a player. I just don't see what all the hoopla is about. So what if he believes something. Who cares if he's right or wrong?

I know what will happen though. If he's right, no one will say anything...but if he's wrong, MANY will want to throw it in his face. Just as some are bashing Boomer for predicting Manning would never win a Super Bowl (as if he's been MAJORLY off with that prediction).

[Ravage!!!]

You could make a fair case for why it shouldn't be necessary to say, "in my opinion". But the truth is, America is a nation of sheep and nothing exemplifies this better than what has gone on in recent weeks with Tebow. Just look at all the people doing 180s on this forum. People are aligning themselves with "experts" in advance of what they think will happen. Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. People should, in theory, be able to determine on their own what is opinion in most cases. But modifying ones language could also lessen the herd effect that we've been seeing.

I see what you are saying. But I hope you aren't suggesting its some kind of media conspiracy to turn people against Tebow. Those on the screen can't constantly be worried that people are going to follow their opinion to the T simply because they express it.

People think I've done a 180 because I was so against Orton. The truth is that I STILL don't want Orton the QB of this team, but I also have been hoping to hear/see MORE from Tebow... and I haven't.

I said last year that the three games he started cause MORE questions of concern about him than making me feel better, and people bashed me for saying that. Here we are the next season, and Orton has been CRUSHING Tebow in the competition to the point that there isn't even competition anymore.

I was EMBARRASSED that our team traded for Brady Quinn... yet now Tebow is having a hard time beating him out. That says a TON to me, and makes me step back and realize that although Orton is NOT the future of this team, that Tebow hasn't shown he is either. Not even enough to separate himself from Quinn.

Thats not the media I'm following. But it certainly does hold some clout to me when guys like Jaws, MONTHS ago, broke down the game tape and said that if Orton was on the team, he would be the starter for the entire year (barring injury) because Tebow was/is just wayyyyy not ready.

[Ravage!!!]

I agree it's their opinioin but they stated as a fact and it isn't. They don't what his future holds any better than we do.

yes, but they don't NEED to say "its an opinion" because its an understood. Its redundant to state that an opinion is an opinion.

[BroncoWave]

Sounds ridiculous? No. It sounds like a prediction. We've heard it from MANY fans of Tebow. Do we get tired of hearing it, yes. But there you ahve it. YOu are tired of hearing negatives about Tim. Ok. Does that mean the "guessing" is "wrong?" Not whatsoever. Who cares what they believe will happen??

Again... its not necessary to say "in my opinion" or "I think".... because thats a GIVEN Fact. Everyone knows its an OPINION, and doesn't need fact to back it up or support it. Normally an opinion is taken as just that, an opinion. But when someone makes a STRONG opinion (or is in the media and it makes someone upset), then they are asked to defend, justify, or support their opinion because everyone wants them to say it "nicely" or in a "politically correct" manner. Then, if they stand behind their strong opinion and not back down from it, they are accused of having an "invested agenda" against Tebow.

If Hoge would have come out and made the "he's going to win multible Super Bowls" he would have gotten the same criticisms, other than the fact that most of you guys would say "here's another NFL analyst that supports Tim." Extremes, on both sides of the spectrum, always get the most responses.

Its why SOME writers write in the style of "sensationalism." Its meant to get response. Depending if the writer agrees with your opinion or not, its why people one week will love the featured writer, and next week will hate him. Merrill made some STRONG statements about a player. I just don't see what all the hoopla is about. So what if he believes something. Who cares if he's right or wrong?

I know what will happen though. If he's right, no one will say anything...but if he's wrong, MANY will want to throw it in his face. Just as some are bashing Boomer for predicting Manning would never win a Super Bowl (as if he's been MAJORLY off with that prediction).

You just agreed with everything we have been saying. Hoge isn't trying to give a fair, objective analysis of Tebow. He's trying to drive controversy and get lots of responses. I realize that and understand why he does it, but that doesn't mean he should be above criticism.

[Ravage!!!]

I have always thought Hoge was a d-bag and a moron. This only reaffirms that thought. He's ALWAYS struck me as a person who likes to be controversial just for attention instead of someone who provides honest, objective analysis.

Well there you go. Then we can't take your statements on his opinion seriously because you obviously have an agenda against Hoge.

So why spend so much time worrying/complaining/griping/attacking Hoge's opinion if it doesn't mean much to you? :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

You just agreed with everything you have been saying. Hoge isn't trying to give a fair, objective analysis of Tebow. He's trying to drive controversy and get lots of responses. I realize that and understand why he does it, but that doesn't mean he should be above criticism.

No I didn't. you didn't read. I don't necessary believe that Hoge is "writing" in the sensationalism style. I believe he's stating a strong opinion. If you don't agree with it, fine. But it seems that no matter what Hoge says you don't like, so its hard to take your opinion on what Hoge says seriously since you've stated you think its only meant to get a reaction.

If that IS true (not saying it is)..then you've reacted JUST how he wanted you to. :lol:

[BroncoWave]

Well there you go. Then we can't take your statements on his opinion seriously because you obviously have an agenda against Hoge.

So why spend so much time worrying/complaining/griping/attacking Hoge's opinion if it doesn't mean much to you? :confused:

Because it's something I feel strongly about and there's really no other discussions going on right now on this board.

[Ravage!!!]

Wasn't AAron Rodgers a high first rounder? He was a back up to the most durable qb ever (he who shal not be named) for a couple of years. Why is it so important for TT to play now?

Because he was taken in the first round of the NFL draft after giving up 4 picks for him. THats why. If he was taken later (or sitting behind a HoF QB) it would be easy to simply have "patience." But thats not the reality. The reality is, this QB has had all the hype since his college years, and he's a first round pick that still can't throw the ball.

Just remember, Green Bay did not INTEND Rodgers to sit behing Favre for that long. They thought Brett was going to retire. Sitting Rodgers that long wasn't what they wanted.

[BroncoWave]

No I didn't. you didn't read. I don't necessary believe that Hoge is "writing" in the sensationalism style. I believe he's stating a strong opinion. If you don't agree with it, fine. But it seems that no matter what Hoge says you don't like, so its hard to take your opinion on what Hoge says seriously since you've stated you think its only meant to get a reaction.

If that IS true (not saying it is)..then you've reacted JUST how he wanted you to. :lol:

So at first you said you didn't take my opinion on Hoge seriously because I was just mad he was attacking a player I like. Now you say you don't take my opinion on him seriously because I have "an agenda" against him.

Seems like anyone who has something negative to say about Hoge just can't be taken seriously in your eyes! :lol:

[BroncoWave]

And it's also funny how you just completely dismiss my opinion and claim I simply have an agenda against Hoge and ignore the specific examples I've given to back up my opinion. Those two videos I posted speak for themselves. Having a strong opinion is one thing. But stating as a fact that Tebow is incapable of ever winning or being a good passer, and pointing his finger at Schefter and calling him "son" and basically treating him like a moron for having a different opinion than him, and refusing to say who he'd take between Tebow/Pryor because it would force him to say something positive about one of them is something completely different.

[Ravage!!!]

So at first you said you didn't take my opinion on Hoge seriously because I was just mad he was attacking a player I like. Now you say you don't take my opinion on him seriously because I have "an agenda" against him.

Seems like anyone who has something negative to say about Hoge just can't be taken seriously in your eyes! :lol:

Actually, thats pretty much the same statement made twice, and I made them specifically for a point.

I was basically saying (hence the wink) that I could just as well bash you for your opinion on Hoge because you have this "hatred" or "agenda" against Hoge that you say Hoge does against Tebow.

The parallels are in bold face.

[Ravage!!!]

And it's also funny how you just completely dismiss my opinion and claim I simply have an agenda against Hoge and ignore the specific examples I've given to back up my opinion. Those two videos I posted speak for themselves. Having a strong opinion is one thing. But stating as a fact that Tebow is incapable of ever winning or being a good passer, and pointing his finger at Schefter and calling him "son" and basically treating him like a moron for having a different opinion than him, and refusing to say who he'd take between Tebow/Pryor because it would force him to say something positive about one of them is something completely different.

:laugh: You have completely missed the boat.

Your "examples" aren't different than everyrone has already seen. We get that you don't like the "delivery" of his opinion. Ok. Now what? Whats different?

You can call it "unprofessional" all you want, but what has that got to do with the point behind the opinion? Nothing. Its still just an opinion given, whether you like how it was delivered or not. Let HIM worry about his delivery. Thats his business. The reason you don't like his delivery is because he's criticizing a player you like. If he had that same kind of passion in defending Tebow, you would be clapping and cheering him on.

[BroncoWave]

Actually, thats pretty much the same statement made twice, and I made them specifically for a point.

I was basically saying (hence the wink) that I could just as well bash you for your opinion on Hoge because you have this "hatred" or "agenda" against Hoge that you say Hoge does against Tebow.

The parallels are in bold face.

Except that I'm saying it because I actually believe it. Hoge is trying to create controversy and drive viewership, so he takes a controversial stance on a polarizing figure.

[SOCALORADO.]

Because he was taken in the first round of the NFL draft after giving up 4 picks for him. THats why. If he was taken later (or sitting behind a HoF QB) it would be easy to simply have "patience." But thats not the reality. The reality is, this QB has had all the hype since his college years, and he's a first round pick that still can't throw the ball.

Just remember, Green Bay did not INTEND Rodgers to sit behing Favre for that long. They thought Brett was going to retire. Sitting Rodgers that long wasn't what they wanted.

QFT.
If Rogers was sitting behind Orton, how long would it have been before he was starting!?!? LOL!
The simple fact is TT is regressing, not improving. He isnt getting better, hes getting worse, and all the cheesy excuses like meaningless games against crappy teams at the end of a meaningless season or corny pre season stats are not going to change this.

[jhildebrand]

Because he was taken in the first round of the NFL draft after giving up 4 picks for him. THats why. If he was taken later (or sitting behind a HoF QB) it would be easy to simply have "patience." But thats not the reality. The reality is, this QB has had all the hype since his college years, and he's a first round pick that still can't throw the ball.

Which is why he should play :lol:

Orton isn't taking this team anywhere. Tebow or Quinn isn't taking this team anywhere.

I laugh that Orton "gives this team the best chance to win!" WTF does that mean. People are going overboard here. Some are even thinking 10-6 and a run at the division. This team will be about like last year's +/- 2 games.

Starting Orton only allows Orton to up his FA value. He is a guy who wont be playing to win. He will be playing to make the safe play and keep his INT's down. He will be playing for the next contract and that means not taking chances. That means FG's instead of TD's. That means seeing us lose close games in the 4th. When it got rough last year, Orton quit!

Tebow on the other hand isn't ready. Nothing will get him ready more than playing. I hated this pick when it was made! HATED IT! I came around quickly. At this point, the team might as well see if there is anything in those 4 picks we spent or if it is time to move on. That is what is in the best interest of the team. If it loses the lockerroom for a while then so be it. Those players that pitch a fit are probably ones that wont be here for long anyway!




If everything was totally equal, and this were a competition based only on performance at this camp, Tebow would probably be the fourth-string guy.
Just remember, Green Bay did not INTEND Rodgers to sit behing Favre for that long. They thought Brett was going to retire. Sitting Rodgers that long wasn't what they wanted.

I know you have debated the sit or not sit question Rav, and IIRC, you always fell on the side that sitting doesn't help/prepare a QB. Tebow is no different here. Rodgers didn't learn much behind Favre. If he didn't learn behind a HOF'er what is Tebow going to learn behind Orton? :confused:

[BroncoWave]

QFT.
If Rogers was sitting behind Orton, how long would it have been before he was starting!?!? LOL!
The simple fact is TT is regressing, not improving. He isnt getting better, hes getting worse, and all the cheesy excuses like meaningless games against crappy teams at the end of a meaningless season or corny pre season stats are not going to change this.

What GAME has he looked regressed in? Not practice, game.

[Ravage!!!]

Except that I'm saying it because I actually believe it. Hoge is trying to create controversy and drive viewership, so he takes a controversial stance on a polarizing figure.

Now now. YOu said that as a statement of fact and didn't state that its your OPINION that is the reason behind his bold comments. You are assuming that is the reason behind his stance rather than just believe this is how he feels. Personally, I think he believes it and is just bold enough to say what so many people want to say, but aren't gutsy enough to put their necks out.

Perhaps you don't want to believe he actually believes this, because you don't want to believe someone thinks this way about Tebow. Maybe it scares you a little that he may be right. It would really bother you if Hoge, of all people, was right on this after having the balls to come out and make his prediction like he did... right? I mean, I know you have saved every article and bookmarked every video so that you can someday come back and throw these remarks out onto the web in an attempt to discredit him? I know you have.

[BroncoWave]

Now now. YOu said that as a statement of fact and didn't state that its your OPINION that is the reason behind his bold comments. You are assuming that is the reason behind his stance rather than just believe this is how he feels. Personally, I think he believes it and is just bold enough to say what so many people want to say, but aren't gutsy enough to put their necks out.

Perhaps you don't want to believe he actually believes this, because you don't want to believe someone thinks this way about Tebow. Maybe it scares you a little that he may be right. It would really bother you if Hoge, of all people, was right on this after having the balls to come out and make his prediction like he did... right? I mean, I know you have saved every article and bookmarked every video so that you can someday come back and throw these remarks out onto the web in an attempt to discredit him? I know you have.

No, I haven't.

[jhildebrand]

The simple fact is TT is regressing, not improving. He isnt getting better, hes getting worse, and all the cheesy excuses like meaningless games against crappy teams at the end of a meaningless season or corny pre season stats are not going to change this.

This is the crap about changing the argument I am talking about. Because Tebow played the last 3 games they were crappy and meaningless. But the fact is Tebow could only play the three games he was sent out there for. He didn't get to pick or choose.

Furthermore one of the games featured the #1 O and #1 D and a team that usually slaughters Orton! I think Tebow performed quite well in that game.

Finally, if they were so crappy and meaningless how come we don't take Orton to task for the same against a crappy AZ led by Max Hall which the broadcast brazenly declared Jay Feeley 22 Broncos 3. How about the week before against KC. Look at that game. Orton quit in both of those games.

How about in 09 when the back half of the schedule was loaded with crappy meaningless teams and Orton had a top 10 ranked D and PO's on the line and HE SUCKED!!!! Should we just ignore that because, as usual, Orton looks good in practice?!

[vandammage13]

So on one hand you say this:

They aren't saying they can predict the future, they are giving their opinion as to how they see it ending up. Thats not wrong.

And on the other hand you say this:

Sounds ridiculous? No. It sounds like a prediction. We've heard it from MANY fans of Tebow. Do we get tired of hearing it, yes. But there you ahve it. YOu are tired of hearing negatives about Tim. Ok. Does that mean the "guessing" is "wrong?" Not whatsoever. Who cares what they believe will happen??

At least try to stay consistent when making your points.

[Ravage!!!]

I laugh that Orton "gives this team the best chance to win!" WTF does that mean. People are going overboard here. Some are even thinking 10-6 and a run at the division. This team will be about like last year's +/- 2 games.
People, or coaches? The coaches are going overboards with this?


I know you have debated the sit or not sit question Rav, and IIRC, you always fell on the side that sitting doesn't help/prepare a QB. Tebow is no different here. Rodgers didn't learn much behind Favre. If he didn't learn behind a HOF'er what is Tebow going to learn behind Orton? :confused:

I'm not saying its the best thing for Tebow to sit. I'm saying I understand why the coaches would start Orton over Tebow. Tebow hasn't even proved he can out play ORton. Why would the coaches choose to put a player in the lineup that can't be the best player for the spot?

Its so easy for us to say "lets just throw out this season and let Tebow play." But the coaches don't want to throw out a season. The players sure as hell don't want to throw out a season. How could Fox POSSIBLY justify putting Tebow behind center when he's proved time and time again that he might be the third best QB on the roster?

The players know. THe players aren't dumb and can see who the best player at QB is. Puttting Tebow in because his name is Tebow would be terrrible for the locker room.

I wanted Tebow to come out and just be CLOSE to Orton so that the coaches could justify putting Tebow on the field. I wanted Orton gone, so there wouldn't be a competition because I knew Tebow couldn't win it (which is bothersome in itself).

As far as what he can learn. He can learn how to read defenses, and learn what the defenses actually do. Thats what he doesn't understand now, is knowing what the defense he recognizes is trying to do..thus not knowing where to go with the ball. Thats what he can learn, and its whats keeping him off the field.

[SOCALORADO.]

What GAME has he looked regressed in? Not practice, game.

What is his record in reg season games?
You know, the ones at the end of the meaningless season against meaningless NON-PLAYOFF teams?

[TXBRONC]

yes, but they don't NEED to say "its an opinion" because its an understood. Its redundant to state that an opinion is an opinion.

From the context it looks like he's stating it as fact.

[Ravage!!!]

So on one hand you say this:


And on the other hand you say this:


At least try to stay consistent when making your points.

I can't believe I have to explain the english language to you, or that you aren't smart enough to see the difference.

Saying they CAN predict the future, and making a prediction (which is another word for guess) are COPMLETELY two different things.

If you are going to try and call me out, you BETTER come with a bigger stick because right now I'm just playing the "quit hitting yourself" game and watching you get black-n-blue eyes. You are just embarrassing yourself. :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

From the context it looks like he's stating it as fact.

But as logical thinking people, we know its not a fact because it CAN'T BE a fact.....its an opinion by definition no matter how he states it. He's stating his opinion as fact because thats what he believes to be true, but no matter how it's stated, it is still an opinion.

[BroncoWave]

What is his record in reg season games?
You know, the ones at the end of the meaningless season against meaningless NON-PLAYOFF teams?

He can only control what happens on his side of the ball. When Orton played against Oakland we scored 14 points. With Tebow we scored 23. Against SD with Orton we scored 14. With Tebow we scored 28. So while he did lose those two games, he came a hell of a lot closer to beating those two teams than Orton did.

Besides, your post makes no sense. Using those 3 games as an example of regression makes no sense because they were his FIRST 3 starts. You can't call it "regression" when that is the starting point.

[BroncoWave]

I can't believe I have to explain the english language to you, or that you aren't smart enough to see the difference.

Saying they CAN predict the future, and making a prediction (which is another word for guess) are COPMLETELY two different things.

If you are going to try and call me out, you BETTER come with a bigger stick because right now I'm just playing the "quit hitting yourself" game and watching you get black-n-blue eyes. You are just embarrassing yourself. :coffee:

And you're making this thread about the posters you are disagreeing with instead of the topic at hand. I guess when you know you don't have an argument it's easier to just attack your fellow posters.

[Ravage!!!]

This is the crap about changing the argument I am talking about. Because Tebow played the last 3 games they were crappy and meaningless. But the fact is Tebow could only play the three games he was sent out there for. He didn't get to pick or choose.

Furthermore one of the games featured the #1 O and #1 D and a team that usually slaughters Orton! I think Tebow performed quite well in that game.

Finally, if they were so crappy and meaningless how come we don't take Orton to task for the same against a crappy AZ led by Max Hall which the broadcast brazenly declared Jay Feeley 22 Broncos 3. How about the week before against KC. Look at that game. Orton quit in both of those games.

How about in 09 when the back half of the schedule was loaded with crappy meaningless teams and Orton had a top 10 ranked D and PO's on the line and HE SUCKED!!!! Should we just ignore that because, as usual, Orton looks good in practice?!

What??? :confused:

Dude, you REALLY have to stop with this "changing the argument" tirade you ahve been going on. It's now not even making sense.

[SOCALORADO.]

This is the crap about changing the argument I am talking about. Because Tebow played the last 3 games they were crappy and meaningless. But the fact is Tebow could only play the three games he was sent out there for. He didn't get to pick or choose.

Furthermore one of the games featured the #1 O and #1 D and a team that usually slaughters Orton! I think Tebow performed quite well in that game.

Finally, if they were so crappy and meaningless how come we don't take Orton to task for the same against a crappy AZ led by Max Hall which the broadcast brazenly declared Jay Feeley 22 Broncos 3. How about the week before against KC. Look at that game. Orton quit in both of those games.

How about in 09 when the back half of the schedule was loaded with crappy meaningless teams and Orton had a top 10 ranked D and PO's on the line and HE SUCKED!!!! Should we just ignore that because, as usual, Orton looks good in practice?!

Excuses, excuses.
Did SD go to the playoffs!?!? NO.
Also, i think Orton SUCKS!
Thats my point, they ALL SUCK.
2 are career back-ups.
1 cant even beat either of the back-ups out.
THATS A PROBLEM FOR TIM TEBOW.
It has simply to do with this easy fact.
Tim Tebow cant run the playbook. He cant run half of it.
He cant take snaps from under center and he cant run play-action.
The HC knows this. The FO knows this. And the owner knows this.
None of your cheesy examples of his "success" have won anyone in the organization over. Its obvious why. They are meaningless.

[Ravage!!!]

And you're making this thread about the posters you are disagreeing with instead of the topic at hand. I guess when you know you don't have an argument it's easier to just attack your fellow posters.

Excuse YOU. He called ME out and tried to correct ME by making the thread about ME. You mind your own business and try to read a bit before making a hypocritical attack, yourself. TYVM.

[BroncoWave]

Excuse YOU. He called ME out and tried to correct ME by making the thread about ME. You mind your own business and try to read a bit before making a hypocritical attack, yourself. TYVM.

You've personally attacked pretty much everyone who has disagreed with you in this thread.

[jhildebrand]

People, or coaches? The coaches are going overboards with this?

People here, obviously. It annoys the crap out of me that we, as adults (strong assumption there), can't compare these two and apply the same arguments/criteria to both. I try to. But I get real tired of constantly hearing the EXCUSES, and there are a lot of them, made for Orton. At some point people will realize those aren't excuses but the FACTS about Orton.



I'm not saying its the best thing for Tebow to sit. I'm saying I understand why the coaches would start Orton over Tebow. Tebow hasn't even proved he can out play ORton. Why would the coaches choose to put a player in the lineup that can't be the best player for the spot?

Its so easy for us to say "lets just throw out this season and let Tebow play." But the coaches don't want to throw out a season. The players sure as hell don't want to throw out a season. How could Fox POSSIBLY justify putting Tebow behind center when he's proved time and time again that he might be the third best QB on the roster?

The players know. THe players aren't dumb and can see who the best player at QB is. Puttting Tebow in because his name is Tebow would be terrrible for the locker room.

I wanted Tebow to come out and just be CLOSE to Orton so that the coaches could justify putting Tebow on the field. I wanted Orton gone, so there wouldn't be a competition because I knew Tebow couldn't win it (which is bothersome in itself).

As far as what he can learn. He can learn how to read defenses, and learn what the defenses actually do. Thats what he doesn't understand now, is knowing what the defense he recognizes is trying to do..thus not knowing where to go with the ball. Thats what he can learn, and its whats keeping him off the field.

I understand your point. However, that is all fine and good if you truly believe this is/was a truly open competition. The facts show it was less open than many believe. It was designed for Orton to win.

At the end of the day, I am not too worried about it. I know Orton will be Orton and by week 10 or 11 Tebow will be in there. The only problem with that is we will be right back in this spot again next season and I don't see how that helps the team or is in it's best interests at all.

[jhildebrand]

Excuses, excuses.
Did SD go to the playoffs!?!? NO.

What does that matter? :confused: You brought it up as a point to support your argument against Tebow when the reality is the same holds true for Orton and to an even larger degree.

Did AZ go to the playoffs?

How about the year before when Orton had a top 10 D and playoffs on the line, 7 TC's under his belt, crappy teams to finish out the season and he GOT BEAT BY JAMARCUS RUSSELL and the Raiders at home. Funny how people just want to let that slide on by as if it had NOTHING to do with Orton. KC was TERRIBLE that year and they SLAUGHTERED US (a common occurence w/ Orton at QB).

But hey Orton practices good at TC therefore let's ignore the fact he is 5-21 DESPITE much of that having a top 10 D. This year will be different JUST BECAUSE.


What is his record in reg season games?
You know, the ones at the end of the meaningless season against meaningless NON-PLAYOFF teams?

Tebow 1-3

Orton is 5-21 with games that do and don't matter. Tell me why Orton is going to be anything but similar this year again?

[vandammage13]

I can't believe I have to explain the english language to you, or that you aren't smart enough to see the difference.

Saying they CAN predict the future, and making a prediction (which is another word for guess) are COPMLETELY two different things.

If you are going to try and call me out, you BETTER come with a bigger stick because right now I'm just playing the "quit hitting yourself" game and watching you get black-n-blue eyes. You are just embarrassing yourself. :coffee:


pre·dict [pri-dikt]

verb (used with object)
1. to declare or tell in advance; prophesy; foretell: to predict the weather; to predict the fall of a civilization.

verb (used without object)
2. to foretell the future; make a prediction.

--------------

pre·dic·tion [pri-dik-shuhn]

noun
1. an act of predicting.

2. an instance of this; prophecy

---------------


guess [ges]

verb (used with object)
1. to arrive at or commit oneself to an opinion about (something) without having sufficient evidence to support the opinion fully: to guess a person's weight.

2. to estimate or conjecture about correctly: to guess what a word means.

3. to think, believe, or suppose: I guess I can get there in time.

------------------------

I am pretty familiar with the English language. The words predict/prediction are not COMPLETELY different...In fact, they are the same.

"Guess" is an opinion....Predict/Prediction are fortelling the future.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the usage of the two words and this is not really what you meant, but nonetheless, you are wrong.

www.dictionary.com

Is that a big enough stick for you?

[Ravage!!!]

People here, obviously. It annoys the crap out of me that we, as adults (strong assumption there), can't compare these two and apply the same arguments/criteria to both. I try to. But I get real tired of constantly hearing the EXCUSES, and there are a lot of them, made for Orton. At some point people will realize those aren't excuses but the FACTS about Orton.
I don't know where you are hearing all t hese excuses from ORton now that Top is gone. I guess thats where I have been a bit confused.




I understand your point. However, that is all fine and good if you truly believe this is/was a truly open competition. The facts show it was less open than many believe. It was designed for Orton to win.

At the end of the day, I am not too worried about it. I know Orton will be Orton and by week 10 or 11 Tebow will be in there. The only problem with that is we will be right back in this spot again next season and I don't see how that helps the team or is in it's best interests at all.

This again does't make sense to me. Why would it be designed for Orton to win? The only reason I could even see this to be true is if the coaches already knew just how much work Tebow needs and didn't waste time with it. THe competition didn't last long, bud. Tebow proved pretty quickly that he is just not ready. Its not hard to see, from the coaches perspective. I guess I don't know what you expect there to be different in a competition for a starting role on a team.

[vandammage13]

Tebow 1-3

Orton is 5-21 with games that do and don't matter. Tell me why Orton is going to be anything but similar this year again?

For the record, Tebow is 1-2.

He has enough people saying how bad (or good) he is based on unknowns, so I at least just want to make sure the knowns are correct...

[SOCALORADO.]

What does that matter? :confused: You brought it up as a point to support your argument against Tebow when the reality is the same holds true for Orton and to an even larger degree.

Did AZ go to the playoffs?

How about the year before when Orton had a top 10 D and playoffs on the line, 7 TC's under his belt, crappy teams to finish out the season and he GOT BEAT BY JAMARCUS RUSSELL and the Raiders at home. Funny how people just want to let that slide on by as if it had NOTHING to do with Orton. KC was TERRIBLE that year and they SLAUGHTERED US (a common occurence w/ Orton at QB).

But hey Orton practices good at TC therefore let's ignore the fact he is 5-21 DESPITE much of that having a top 10 D. This year will be different JUST BECAUSE.

Why do you keep bring Orton into this? Is it because he sucks!?!?!
I agree! Orton sucks!
Its really easy man.
TT cant run the offense. Its obvious. From all acounts at camp, and his preseason games.
There is no way in hell a professional NFL team is going to go into the season with a "QB" who cant make a hot read. Or who cant even run play-action, with basic proficiency. It aint happenin.
Tim Tebow cannot read defenses yet either. Which all play into each other.
And because of this, it limits TTs ability to run the offense to a huge degree.
When TT comes to the LOS and looks over the defense and says,
"Huh, somethings different here, i dont know what it is, but it aint right"
He looks over to his primary reciever and sees that the CB has moved up from zone to now man-to-man, and he realizes he isnt going to be able to throw over there. Tim doesnt know how to make a hot-read and change the play right there at the LOS. What TT does is he simply hikes the football, and then does what hes done his entire life......he runs.
This will not work and its why TT is not the starting QB.
Teams would KILL him. Absolutely KILL him.
The entire organization knows this.

[jhildebrand]

I don't know where you are hearing all t hese excuses from ORton now that Top is gone. I guess thats where I have been a bit confused.

Its there! Just look. Go back to the Dallas game day thread. Orton was 2 for 6. People threw out the dropped passes excuse. People threw out all kinds of stuff as to why Orton's numbers didn't look as good as Tebow's in week 1 and simultaneously tried to take away from Tebow's numbers.

Fast forward to week 2 and all of a sudden people don't apply the same logic to Tebow that they afforded Orton because it no longer was needed to support 'their guy.'

Whatever, I am over it.






This again does't make sense to me. Why would it be designed for Orton to win? The only reason I could even see this to be true is if the coaches already knew just how much work Tebow needs and didn't waste time with it. THe competition didn't last long, bud. Tebow proved pretty quickly that he is just not ready. Its not hard to see, from the coaches perspective. I guess I don't know what you expect there to be different in a competition for a starting role on a team.

How many snaps did Tebow take with the #1's? :confused:

I would think Tebow showed enough in preseason week 1 with backups at some positions but still playing Dallas' #1's would be enough to garner more time. If it were a real competition, then after the first preseason game Tebow and Quinn would have earned more playing time and Orton less. But that wasn't the case.

How is it a competition again when a certain QB is performing well in very controlled circumstances but then is outplayed in week 1 in a true game type situation? :confused: I think Fox and Elway expected Tebow to tank against Dallas and that is why they put him in when they did with Dallas #1's still on the field. It didn't happen. Tebow out performed Orton plain and simple. The next day the media wrote favorable stories about Tebow.

Fox and Elway knew after week 1 the danger of Tebow playing a significant amount of time against Buffalo the same way he had against Dallas. They knew just how bad Buffalo is. You didn't find the play selection for Tebow the least bit peculiar. Just imagine if the WR didn't drop the perfectly thrown deep ball!

Fox this week actually acknowledged the discrepancy in throwing reps.

[BroncoStud]

2 man-ee bigg werdsss :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

How many snaps did Tebow take with the #1's? :confused:

I would think Tebow showed enough in preseason week 1 with backups at some positions but still playing Dallas' #1's would be enough to garner more time. If it were a real competition, then after the first preseason game Tebow and Quinn would have earned more playing time and Orton less. But that wasn't the case.
He didn't earn the right to be the first QB. That has to be EARNED,and you earn that by showing in practice that youhave a full understanding of the offense and the reads. I don't get where you think "fair competition" means pre-season games. I promise you, they don't look at the pre-season games to determine who the starters are going to be....at any position.


How is it a competition again when a certain QB is performing well in very controlled circumstances but then is outplayed in week 1 in a true game type situation? :confused: I think Fox and Elway expected Tebow to tank against Dallas and that is why they put him in when they did with Dallas #1's still on the field. It didn't happen. Tebow out performed Orton plain and simple. The next day the media wrote favorable stories about Tebow.

Fox and Elway knew after week 1 the danger of Tebow playing a significant amount of time against Buffalo the same way he had against Dallas. They knew just how bad Buffalo is. You didn't find the play selection for Tebow the least bit peculiar. Just imagine if the WR didn't drop the perfectly thrown deep ball!

Fox this week actually acknowledged the discrepancy in throwing reps.

Alright. Well... you can have those conspiracy theories if you wish. But I'm just not going to agree with you on them.

[jhildebrand]

Why do you keep bring Orton into this? Is it because he sucks!?!?!
I agree! Orton sucks!

Than why do so many continue to insist he gives this team the best chance to win when history clearly demonstrates the opposite?



TT cant run the offense. Its obvious. From all acounts at camp, and his preseason games.

Really? :confused: Tebow easily outperformed Orton in preseason week 1 against dallas against the same #1s Orton faced.



There is no way in hell a professional NFL team is going to go into the season with a "QB" who cant make a hot read. Or who cant even run play-action, with basic proficiency. It aint happenin.

Tebow runs the PA better than Orton. He was placed in games last year to run the PA by McD before things got real bad! His PA was effective against the #1 D in the season.



Tim Tebow cannot read defenses yet either.

The same was said about Cutler and Rodgers. Did they learn to read D's in practice or game time?



Which all play into each other.
And because of this, it limits TTs ability to run the offense to a huge degree.
When TT comes to the LOS and looks over the defense and says,
"Huh, somethings different here, i dont know what it is, but it aint right"
He looks over to his primary reciever and sees that the CB has moved up from zone to now man-to-man, and he realizes he isnt going to be able to throw over there. Tim doesnt know how to make a hot-read and change the play right there at the LOS. What TT does is he simply hikes the football, and then does what hes done his entire life......he runs.

Funny. Watch the Buffalo game again. TT did just the opposite of what you said. He stood in the pocket, stepped up when the pressure was there, and delivered a perfectly thrown deep ball that the WR should have easily caught.



This will not work and its why TT is not the starting QB.
Teams would KILL him. Absolutely KILL him.
The entire organization knows this.

So how come Dallas couldn't do it in PS week 1? :confused: How come the #1 O and the #1 D and a DC that was widely regarded as one of the best in the league in Ron Rivera couldn't do it? SD LOVES to embarass Denver when they can. Oakland couldn't embarass/KILL Tebow IN OAKLAND yet disposed of Orton and the Broncos at home with ease.

Say what you will about Houston's pass D but the fact is they can rush the passer, how come they didn't absolutely KILL him.

In fact a former QB, who also helped coach Elway here, who knows a thing or two walked out of here with nothing but GLOWING remarks about Tebow. He didn't have to offer any of that up YET HE DID.

[jhildebrand]

He didn't earn the right to be the first QB. That has to be EARNED,and you earn that by showing in practice that youhave a full understanding of the offense and the reads.

You are the one stuck on this theory that a QB has to EARN the right to be first QB. In some camps and some staffs that is the case. I have shown you PLENTY of circumstances where QB's DIDNT EARN the starting job at camp.

Orton didn't EARN this job in 09. Do you really need me to re-post the articles that Simms was clearly the better of the 2 in the 09 camp? Do you not remember how much worse it got after the open practice at Invesco when Orton was LOUDLY booed? McDaniels had to come out and simply declare Orton the starter DESPITE Simms having a better camp!


There was more to the Denver Broncos' preseason opener at San Francisco than Kyle Orton's three interceptions on his first three series.

Really.

Backup quarterback Chris Simms looked good. Of course, he was playing with and against backups, but if Orton continues to flounder, Simms may get a chance to compete for the top job. Simms has looked better than Orton in practice and he has a much stronger arm.

Stay tuned. Orton's hat trick may have made it interesting in Denver.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/2908/denver-notes-simms-looks-good-moreno-hurt


As for his quarterback, McDaniels named Orton his starter in June.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp09/news/story?id=4401279
Orton named starter in June before a single snap in practice. :coffee:

Continued to be the starter DESPITE Simms outperforming Orton.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13132450 This article shows the very point I have made about McD putting out the fire that a QB contreversy was brewing!

If it is about EARNING the job in practice then Simms would have been our starter in 09. He wasn't because of politics! Orton replaced Cutler. There was no way McD was going to trade Jay a young up and coming ProBowl QB for a guy and then see that guy beat out by Simms who had been out of football.

How bad was it? :confused: So bad that prior to the start of last year, McD was trying to trade Orton and had to be talked out of it!



So you can tell me that it has to be EARNED but the facts dont support that! That is one way to do it but not the ONLY way.

Again, Ted Thompson and AJ Smith didnt have Rodgers nor Rivers EARN the job. They shipped the incumbents out. Same thing in NY with Eli. He didnt beat out Kurt. They shipped Warner out.




I don't get where you think "fair competition" means pre-season games. I promise you, they don't look at the pre-season games to determine who the starters are going to be....at any position.

What?!?!?!?! :confused: Now you are just being silly Rav. TD ring a bell? How about Arian Foster? Of course PS HELPS determines the depth chart from 1 to 3. If that weren't the case than why is Mohamad the #2 behind Mays now instead of Irving? If the coaches dont use PS games to evaluate then why do they even have them? Why even play them? Why bother substituting!

Your assertion is just down right absurd here.



Alright. Well... you can have those conspiracy theories if you wish. But I'm just not going to agree with you on them.

Cheap tactic labeling it a conspiracy theory (especially after the assertion you made above) when the fact is you have no argument to what I wrote above!

If it were such a conspiracy theory and if the Staff doesn't evaluate the players then why was Quinn given more time against Buffalo because he "earned based on his play against Dallas" as Fox stated. Well if Quinn earned it playing against the 3's and Tebow easily outperformed Orton against the 1's how did he not EARN it as well????????????

[SOCALORADO.]

Than why do so many continue to insist he gives this team the best chance to win when history clearly demonstrates the opposite?
Dont care. I think Orton sucks.


Really? :confused: Tebow easily outperformed Orton in preseason week 1 against dallas against the same #1s Orton faced.

Wrong. TT faced the 2s and 3s for the majority of his time, and ran around like a chicken with his head cut off. b This is because he cant make reads and run play action. Good try though.

Tebow runs the PA better than Orton. He was placed in games last year to run the PA by McD before things got real bad! His PA was effective against the #1 D in the season.

He cant run play-action. I know you want to believe that he can, but everyone and their mother knows he cant, and according to all camp reports and his sad display in pre-season games, he cant and is flat out horrid at it. Not to mention the countless times hes SUPPOSED to run play-action, and instead, he just......runs. Just because he managed to fumble his way through a play-action play and actually complete the play, doesnt mean he can run play-action. The HC made him do it. To prove that hes really bad at it. This is one of the many reasons hes NOT the starter. Remember Orton sucks.


The same was said about Cutler and Rodgers. Did they learn to read D's in practice or game time?

1st, both of those QBs were well ahead of TT in defensive recognition, coming out of college.
2nd, both of those QBs can make all the NFL throws, unlike your boy.
So the learning curve to reading defenses is actually something in their range, where Tebow just....runs.


Funny. Watch the Buffalo game again. TT did just the opposite of what you said. He stood in the pocket, stepped up when the pressure was there, and delivered a perfectly thrown deep ball that the WR should have easily caught.

Great! wow! He did it! Whoopie! And against the Bills no less!
To bad he cant do it proficiently and consistently in practice.


So how come Dallas couldn't do it in PS week 1? :confused: How come the #1 O and the #1 D and a DC that was widely regarded as one of the best in the league in Ron Rivera couldn't do it? SD LOVES to embarass Denver when they can. Oakland couldn't embarass/KILL Tebow IN OAKLAND yet disposed of Orton and the Broncos at home with ease.

WTH are you talking about? Tebow LOST thoses games. Period.

Say what you will about Houston's pass D but the fact is they can rush the passer, how come they didn't absolutely KILL him.

Again, WTH are you talkin about? Becaue a lackluster Texans team didnt come out to play, somehow it means tebow can run the team!??!
LOL! THEN WHY ISNT HE!?!?!
In fact a former QB, who also helped coach Elway here, who knows a thing or two walked out of here with nothing but GLOWING remarks about Tebow. He didn't have to offer any of that up YET HE DID.

Glowing remarks. And hes 3rd string to 2 career back ups who YOU SAY SUCK!
Your not helping your argument.

[vandammage13]

I don't know where you are hearing all t hese excuses from ORton now that Top is gone. I guess thats where I have been a bit confused.

Where did Top go anyway...I kinda miss him.

[jhildebrand]

Glowing remarks. And hes 3rd string to 2 career back ups who YOU SAY SUCK!
Your not helping your argument.

Where did I say Quinn sucks? :confused:

He is 3rd string due to something that was ANYTHING but a competition.

Again, answer the simple question:

If this is a TRUE competition and Quinn EARNED more reps against Buffalo this week due in large part to Lighting up dallas' #3's, then HOW COME THE SAME DIDN'T hold true for Tebow? He way outplayed Dallas' #1's and fared FAR better than Orton!

Then, why was Tebow given 2 passes a week later? The first a completion and the second a beautifully thrown long ball that should have been completed. After that, it was all run plays.

Quinn threw a RZ INT. Quinn didn't have all run plays after that.

The idea that this is any kind of competition when Fox and Elway are both on record months ago saying Orton is our starter if the season starts today, Tebow got NO reps with the #1's, and DESPTIE outperforming Orton in week 1 against Dallas GOT REDUCED time shows it is anything but a competition. It is all politics.

Elway and Fox would have been better served after the FAILED Orton trade simply naming Orton the starter than allowing this circus to happen! That is the only error they have made this far-allowing the Orton trade to fall apart and everything that came as a consequence.

[SOCALORADO.]

Where did I say Quinn sucks? :confused:

He is 3rd string due to something that was ANYTHING but a competition.

Again, answer the simple question:

If this is a TRUE competition and Quinn EARNED more reps against Buffalo this week due in large part to Lighting up dallas' #3's, then HOW COME THE SAME DIDN'T hold true for Tebow? He way outplayed Dallas' #1's and fared FAR better than Orton!

Then, why was Tebow given 2 passes a week later? The first a completion and the second a beautifully thrown long ball that should have been completed. After that, it was all run plays.

Quinn threw a RZ INT. Quinn didn't have all run plays after that.

The idea that this is any kind of competition when Fox and Elway are both on record months ago saying Orton is our starter if the season starts today, Tebow got NO reps with the #1's, and DESPTIE outperforming Orton in week 1 against Dallas GOT REDUCED time shows it is anything but a competition. It is all politics.

Elway and Fox would have been better served after the FAILED Orton trade simply naming Orton the starter than allowing this circus to happen! That is the only error they have made this far-allowing the Orton trade to fall apart and everything that came as a consequence.

So further explain your thoughts.
What is your opinion on the FO/EFX?
And Why isnt Tebow starting?

Tebow did not outpreform anyone week 1. He couldnt run the plays called, so he ran around. You do realize that when a HC calls a play, and the QB DOESNT run that play, but just runs around immediately after hiking the ball, its looked at as a negative? Its why there is a preseason.
Quinn ran the offense completely, unlike tebow. All facets of the offensive playbook.

[jhildebrand]

So further explain your thoughts.
What is your opinion on the FO/EFX?

I liked the apparent transparency early on. I liked the draft. I like their approach at FA.

I think they have done a damn good job. Their only blemish thus far is FAILING to trade Orton after putting him on the block. That created the circus, not Tebow and Tebowmania. Their failure in that trade showed the inexperience. That is the only point of which I am critical of them.



And Why isnt Tebow starting?

Politics. They don't want to lose the locker room. They don't realize the difference between the LR that was lost during Brister V Griese was a different animal altogether!



Tebow did not outpreform anyone week 1. He couldnt run the plays called, so he ran around.
All he did was run around and go 6 for 7. How is it that he completed 6 of 7 passes if all he was doing was running around? :confused:



You do realize that when a HC calls a play, and the QB DOESNT run that play, but just runs around immediately after hiking the ball, its looked at as a negative? Its why there is a preseason.

Orton audibled out of the play, much to Fox's chagrin, to go to Lloyd on a fade route in the corner of the endzone. A terrible call. A terrible throw. A terrible decision. So much so that Fox said: "if that is a hot read for that situation I will tear that play from the playbook!"

Two plays later Orton ran around on third and goal and despite having a clear lane to the endzone pussed out and ran out of bounds. Orton also took the too many men in the huddle call. Something an 8 year vet shouldn't do.

Go back and watch Orton's very first pass.

This is the "applying an argument" when it is convenient that I was highlighting to Rav. You want to fault Tebow for your perception that he CHANGED the play yet turn a blind eye to it when Orton does it and does it in the RZ with terrible consequences! So if "changing" the play was such a bad thing for Tebow yet he went 6 for 7 and Orton only 2 for 6, then doesnt it stand to reason that one did it right and the other not so much as evidenced by their numbers? Again, if we fault tebow for it, apply the same argument to Orton!

DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE GAME? :confused:

[SOCALORADO.]

I liked the apparent transparency early on. I liked the draft. I like their approach at FA.

I think they have done a damn good job. Their only blemish thus far is FAILING to trade Orton after putting him on the block. That created the circus, not Tebow and Tebowmania. Their failure in that trade showed the inexperience. That is the only point of which I am critical of them.



Politics. They don't want to lose the locker room. They don't realize the difference between the LR that was lost during Brister V Griese was a different animal altogether!


All he did was run around and go 6 for 7. How is it that he completed 6 of 7 passes if all he was doing was running around? :confused:

All he did was run around like a chicken with his head cut off, when he should have been running the plays called and going 13-16 for 200 yards. Instead we got 6 of 7 on his cheesy dump offs, and check downs. Oh! and the one big play over the third stringers! Cant forget that! i know you'll call me out on it!
I swear Tebow/Willis is the most LETHAL pre season combo ever!

Orton audibled out of the play, much to Fox's chagrin, to go to Lloyd on a fade route in the corner of the endzone. A terrible call. A terrible throw. A terrible decision. So much so that Fox said: "if that is a hot read for that situation I will tear that play from the playbook!"

Two plays later Orton ran around on third and goal and despite having a clear lane to the endzone pussed out and ran out of bounds. Orton also took the too many men in the huddle call. Something an 8 year vet shouldn't do.

Go back and watch Orton's very first pass.

This is the "applying an argument" when it is convenient that I was highlighting to Rav. You want to fault Tebow for your perception that he CHANGED the play yet turn a blind eye to it when Orton does it and does it in the RZ with terrible consequences! So if "changing" the play was such a bad thing for Tebow yet he went 6 for 7 and Orton only 2 for 6, then doesnt it stand to reason that one did it right and the other not so much as evidenced by their numbers? Again, if we fault tebow for it, apply the same argument to Orton!

DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE GAME? :confused:

You keep using Orton to try to make a point.
For the 50th time! I think Orton sucks!
Got it!?!?
The reason that Tebow isnt starting has NOTHING to do with Orton, or politics and everything to do with Tim Tebows lack of ability in running the offense with basic proficiency. Like Mark Sanchez does in NY.
What is disappointing is the fact that Tebow is regressing and not improving in this area. Hes a 3 year project from today.

[Agent of Orange]

You keep using Orton to try to make a point.
For the 50th time! I think Orton sucks!
Got it!?!?
The reason that Tebow isnt starting has NOTHING to do with Orton, or politics and everything to do with Tim Tebows lack of ability in running the offense with basic proficiency. Like Mark Sanchez does in NY.
What is disappointing is the fact that Tebow is regressing and not improving in this area. Hes a 3 year project from today.

Did you just buy an Athlon with Barkley and Luck on the cover?

[NorCalBronco7]

How many snaps did Tebow take with the #1's? :confused:

I would think Tebow showed enough in preseason week 1 with backups at some positions but still playing Dallas' #1's would be enough to garner more time. If it were a real competition, then after the first preseason game Tebow and Quinn would have earned more playing time and Orton less. But that wasn't the case.

How is it a competition again when a certain QB is performing well in very controlled circumstances but then is outplayed in week 1 in a true game type situation? :confused: I think Fox and Elway expected Tebow to tank against Dallas and that is why they put him in when they did with Dallas #1's still on the field. It didn't happen. Tebow out performed Orton plain and simple. The next day the media wrote favorable stories about Tebow.

Fox and Elway knew after week 1 the danger of Tebow playing a significant amount of time against Buffalo the same way he had against Dallas. They knew just how bad Buffalo is. You didn't find the play selection for Tebow the least bit peculiar. Just imagine if the WR didn't drop the perfectly thrown deep ball!

Fox this week actually acknowledged the discrepancy in throwing reps.

You make good points and I think your spot on here. The fact that Tebow has yet to get snaps with the starters is vexing to me as well, especially after displaying great accuracy against Dallas. I mean, Tebow has nothing to prove at this point in his career now and hes obviously earned the starting job, so why isnt he #1? Ill tell why, its because of Alpha Team 9.

You see, John Foxs father was a navy seal, but as a kid, he wanted to grow up and be a profootball american icon like his uncle (Roy). Unfortunately, Roy was killed by taking a massive hit when he botched the revolutionary play of its time, the pooch punt. Traumatized by his unlcles death, Cecil became enraged and looked to channel his frustration in a violent, murderous way.

So he joined the boy scouts. After finding out aimless killings were diluted to burning ants with a magnifying glass, he quickly left the group. But not to be played like a bitch, the night before leaving the scouts, lil Cecil poured bacon grease and honey on top of everyone's tents, and they were all eaten alive by bears and mountain lions.

As he grew older and the chance of playing in the NFL were slowly passing him by, Cecil gave the sport, and dream, one last shot. He shot up steroids and started tackling every person he came in contact to. One day, as luck would have it, Cecil, experiencing hallucinations, ran through the front door of an old navy seal, Merv. Merv saw the burning desire in Cecils eyes to murder, so he ofered him a job as a Navy Seal, specifically Alpha Team 9.

As time went on, Cecil killed numerous people, and was thus, happy. He had many kids and watched the apple of his eye, John, turn into a professional football coach. Cecil was sure that he could live his life without feeling sorrow about never playing profootball, but then he caught a glimpse of a new budding start, Tim Tebow. With an uncontrollable jealous rage, Cecil demanded John to never give the kid an honest chance, and John, in fear of his murderous fathers threats, did everything he possibly could to rig the Broncos 2011 Qb competition. John started calling his buddies in the media, Merrill and Boomer, to publicly tear down this young "Qb". And as fate would have it, Tebow was delegated to 3rd string and full of shame and regret. And as Tebows religion goes, Cecil felt somewhat vindicated in his life of failure.


The
End.

[Agent of Orange]

You make good points and I think your spot on here. The fact that Tebow has yet to get snaps with the starters is vexing to me as well, especially after displaying great accuracy against Dallas. I mean, Tebow has nothing to prove at this point in his career now and hes obviously earned the starting job, so why isnt he #1? Ill tell why, its because of Alpha Team 9.

You see, John Foxs father was a navy seal, but as a kid, he wanted to grow up and be a profootball american icon like his uncle (Roy). Unfortunately, Roy was killed by taking a massive hit when he botched the revolutionary play of its time, the pooch punt. Traumatized by his unlcles death, Cecil became enraged and looked to channel his frustration in a violent, murderous way.

So he joined the boy scouts. After finding out aimless killings were diluted to burning ants with a magnifying glass, he quickly left the group. But not to be played like a bitch, the night before leaving the scouts, lil Cecil poured bacon grease and honey on top of everyone's tents, and they were all eaten alive by bears and mountain lions.

As he grew older and the chance of playing in the NFL were slowly passing him by, Cecil gave the sport, and dream, one last shot. He shot up steroids and started tackling every person he came in contact to. One day, as luck would have it, Cecil, experiencing hallucinations, ran through the front door of an old navy seal, Merv. Merv saw the burning desire in Cecils eyes to murder, so he ofered him a job as a Navy Seal, specifically Alpha Team 9.

As time went on, Cecil killed numerous people, and was thus, happy. He had many kids and watched the apple of his eye, John, turn into a professional football coach. Cecil was sure that he could live his life without feeling sorrow about never playing profootball, but then he caught a glimpse of a new budding start, Tim Tebow. With an uncontrollable jealous rage, Cecil demanded John to never give the kid an honest chance, and John, in fear of his murderous fathers threats, did everything he possibly could to rig the Broncos 2011 Qb competition. John started calling his buddies in the media, Merrill and Boomer, to publicly tear down this young "Qb". And as fate would have it, Tebow was delegated to 3rd string and full of shame and regret. And as Tebows religion goes, Cecil felt somewhat vindicated in his life of failure.


The
End.

It's actually as well reasoned as anything coming from anyone else at this point. There is definitely a discrepancy with how Tebow has played in games vs what has been coming out of practice.

[jhildebrand]

You make good points and I think your spot on here. The fact that Tebow has yet to get snaps with the starters is vexing to me as well, especially after displaying great accuracy against Dallas. I mean, Tebow has nothing to prove at this point in his career now and hes obviously earned the starting job, so why isnt he #1?

Why not just post a cool story, bro pic and move on :confused:

I am not making the case for Tebow to be #1 or #2. I am making the case that this wasn't the 'competition' everybody has made it out to be. I am making the case that the QB spot isn't always earned-as Rav clings so dearly to. I am making the case that everything with regard to Tebow is spun harder than a glass bottle at an 8th grade party and it would behoove some people to look through the spin. While on the other hand people are all too willing to look past Orton's issues, issues that he has always had, and proclaim his play as 'spectacular' when it was anything but.

Don't worry though, when we are in week 12 and this team has 3-5 wins under its belt again with Orton under center I will be all too happy to answer all the posts of "nobody could see this coming with the camp Orton had."

By the way, your story sucks!

[Ravage!!!]

Why not just post a cool story, bro pic and move on :confused:

I am not making the case for Tebow to be #1 or #2. I am making the case that this wasn't the 'competition' everybody has made it out to be. I am making the case that the QB spot isn't always earned-as Rav clings so dearly to. I am making the case that everything with regard to Tebow is spun harder than a glass bottle at an 8th grade party and it would behoove some people to look through the spin. While on the other hand people are all too willing to look past Orton's issues, issues that he has always had, and proclaim his play as 'spectacular' when it was anything but.

Don't worry though, when we are in week 12 and this team has 3-5 wins under its belt again with Orton under center I will be all too happy to answer all the posts of "nobody could see this coming with the camp Orton had."

By the way, your story sucks!

where I'm confused is that you keep pleading to the fans, us, to see that Orton isn't the guy. We see that Orton isn't the guy for this team, but as it is, Tebow has proved to the coaches that HE is not the guy for this team by h is inability to understand and run the offense. Its that simple.

You can claim it wasn't a fair competition if you want to, but I dn't see how you can claim that. If the coaches on the field can see that Tebow doesn't understand the reads, makes the wrong reads, isn't throwing to the right man, isn't throwing accurately, and they can't open up the playbook when Tebow is behind center.... .where are they supposed to give Tebow allowances???

I still haven't heard you explain to me as to WHY Fox would want to put Orton in as the starter if he hasn't earned it??? :confused: I mean, If I'm clinging to the idea that the spot is earned, what do you call your infactuation that there is some horrible conspiracy against Tebow from the coaching staff... or this obsession you have with people "changing the argument"...... as if poor Tebow is being treated unfailry by EVERYONE (even the coaches).

If you can give me a reasonable explanation as to what Fox would gain by starting Orton over Tebow other than he (yes, you are going to hate this) gives the team the best chance to win now... I would love to hear it.

Because I think everyone here knows that Orton is NOT the future of this team, but what does US feeling this way have ANYTHING to do with Tebow not getting a "fair shot" at the starting job????

[BroncoStud]

Does ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE on here actually believe that Orton will start all 16 games this year?

[NightTerror218]

New Tweet by Klis...funny

Mike Klis
@MikeKlis Mike Klis
Indications Tebow to get more reps than Quinn in final 2 pre-gms. He'll need them to have chance at improving 77.8 comp per and 113.4 rtg

[jhildebrand]

If you can give me a reasonable explanation as to what Fox would gain by starting Orton over Tebow other than he (yes, you are going to hate this) gives the team the best chance to win now... I would love to hear it.

They start Tebow, to see what the team has in him as so many want, and Tebow actually performs. Then they really are saddled with a QB they dont want! You think Tebowmania is crazy and loud now, could you imagine if he started and managed an 8-8 record. :shocked: The team would all but be stuck with him and could kiss any chance of Luck goodbye.

This way, Orton can play. He can suck as he always will. He can get knicked up like he always does. Tebow can come in just enough to show just enough to entice a team to give up a 6th for him (a la Brady Quinn) and the Broncos make their move for Luck! All while being able to placate the locker room with "we went with the best guy" talk.

Also, if playing Orton is in the Broncos best interests this year, then why not extend him? If Playing Orton is in the Broncos best interests what good is it when he walks via FA next year? :confused: Seems pretty myopic to me all for the sake of saying the team was trying to win in year 1. The reality is it could add another year of losing.

[Ravage!!!]

They start Tebow, to see what the team has in him as so many want, and Tebow actually performs. Then they really are saddled with a QB they dont want! You think Tebowmania is crazy and loud now, could you imagine if he started and managed an 8-8 record. :shocked: The team would all but be stuck with him and could kiss any chance of Luck goodbye.
Ohhhh... so you think the man is keeping Tebow down because they don't really want him. So Elway and Fox want Luck so badly, that they are keeping Orton in the lineup to give them the best chance..... gotcha.


This way, Orton can play. He can suck as he always will. He can get knicked up like he always does. Tebow can come in just enough to show just enough to entice a team to give up a 6th for him (a la Brady Quinn) and the Broncos make their move for Luck! All while being able to placate the locker room with "we went with the best guy" talk.

Also, if playing Orton is in the Broncos best interests this year, then why not extend him? If Playing Orton is in the Broncos best interests what good is it when he walks via FA next year? :confused: Seems pretty myopic to me all for the sake of saying the team was trying to win in year 1. The reality is it could add another year of losing.

Ok, I gotta ask. Are you being serious, or are you throwing out these conspiracy theories just as a joke? I'm not trying to be insulting or sarcastic, because I'm honestly confused.

[NightTerror218]

Ohhhh... so you think the man is keeping Tebow down because they don't really want him. So Elway and Fox want Luck so badly, that they are keeping Orton in the lineup to give them the best chance..... gotcha.



Ok, I gotta ask. Are you being serious, or are you throwing out these conspiracy theories just as a joke? I'm not trying to be insulting or sarcastic, because I'm honestly confused.


This is the Broncos Conspiracy Forums.....we dont accept facts and we attack anyone with an opinion. :welcome:

[jhildebrand]

Anyone notice how Shanahan is holding his QB competition in DC? :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

Anyone notice how Shanahan is holding his QB competition in DC? :confused:

When you don't have a clear best QB, you have to rely on things to make the tie-breaker. I sure wish we had a QB that could push Orton enough to be that close. :tsk:

[Slick]

Anyone notice how Shanahan is holding his QB competition in DC? :confused:


Whatever mikey does is bovine excremnt. He is nothing without his hof playrs.

War el paso

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Tned]

Whatever mikey does is bovine excremnt. He is nothing without his hof playrs.

War el paso

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

War Ciudad Juarez...

Actually, I think there is a war there.

[MOtorboat]

You're a Broncos fan. Do you feel Tebow is being treated fairly by the media? Is he being covered in the same regards as the other 2nd year QBs or players that were drafted in the 1st round?

Why don't we hear major media coverage and angst towards D. Thomas, who was drafted higher than Tebow, and was taken ahead of Dez Bryant, who appears to be a stud? Why isn't Robert Ayers being bashed repeatedly? What about K. Moreno? Both those guys were taken before Tebow... Where is the national media coverage of Jimmy Clausen, Mel Kiper's "most NFL-ready" QB who can barely complete a pass? Where is the mass negative coverage of C. J. Spiller or Ryan Matthews?

Go back to 2009. Tyson Jackson, Matthew Stafford, Heyward-Bey, K. Moreno, R. Ayers, Aaron Maybin, etc, etc... Some can't stay healthy, some can't quite produce enough, and some have already been cut from their teams, yet ALL were drafted ahead of Tebow.

I didn't like that we drafted Tebow, but then Orto sucked so much I wanted to see what Tebow could do and he did ok. Now I am just starting to feel bad for the dude, guys like Hoge, Esiason, Silver, and pretty much every other ESPN talking drone is piling on him, and for what? I haven't heard Hoge say one bad thing about Heyward-Bey, and it's clear as hell that guy isn't an NFL WR.

I think it borders on complete ignorance to deny that the media is out to pile on Tebow for ratings, nothing more, nothing less. His treatment is anything but fair.

"Fair" is a hard thing to define.

Is the coverage warranted? Yes. Tebow is probably the greatest college football player ever. None of the players you mentioned carry this burden. As much as I hate Florida football (yes, I used the hate term, I'm a Florida hater), I liked to watch the guy run that offense. It was fun to watch. I can admit to that. And I can admit to how good he really was. At that level a leader, I mean a real leader, is rare.

Unfortunately, the skills, not the leadership, but the skills, do not transfer to playing quarterback in the NFL.

So is the criticism, most notably Esiason's and Hoge's "fair?"

In my mind, it is. Is it harsh? Oh, yeah.

But I think the anger at Esiason is more of an outlet for fans to show their frustration, more than anything, and a continuation of their anger at Hoge for using absolutes. Esiason said "right now," in his commentary. I think that is getting passed over, because people who support Tebow are frustrated with Hoge using absolutes. Keep in mind, Hoge is the only person to use an absolute.

Esiason's quick sound bite said he couldn't play, but examining the full context of what he said, there was the "right now" comment.

Hell, John Elway has used that same context thus far. He's said he's a fantastic athlete and a good human being, but he's not a good quarterback, right now.

Michael Silver's report adds to the "hate." If someone, or someones, in the organization said that to him, is he obligated to report it? That, to me, is the question. The answer in my mind is yes. However, the anonymous sources are the problem. Like Buff has very succinctly said in another thread, that's the problem. He harbors illusions of being football's Woodward and Bernstein, and doesn't quite grasp that this is a game, and part of the entertainment part of the newsroom, not the hard news or political side.

Of all the reports out there, I'd label his the most unfair. Why? Because he's actually "acting" as a journalist and a true member of the media.

Hoge and Esiason are not members of the media. They are columnists. Their job is to evoke thought from their "readers," and in this case viewers and listeners. They aren't meant to relay news. That's what gets lost.

(Sorry to mention politics) It's the same thing when people label MSNBC or Fox as partisan. No...they are not partisan, the hosts of their programming is. Its the same way with ESPN. They have true journalists, Palantonio, Kirkjean, Olney types, but there are more "columnists" on their network, than "journalists."

People forget that. So, is it fair? In my mind, yes.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I did not have time to check total thread to see if this had already been posted:


Don't count Joe Montana among the critics of Tim Tebow's throwing motion.

TEBOW CRITICS: Religion the reason? (can click on this to read that)

The Hall of Fame quarterback and three-time Super Bowl MVP weighed in on that topic on the Dan Patrick Show today, and said "I wouldn't change it," because:

rest of article - http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2011/08/joe-montana-tim-tebow-throwing-motion/1

[BroncoStud]

"Fair" is a hard thing to define.

Is the coverage warranted? Yes. Tebow is probably the greatest college football player ever. None of the players you mentioned carry this burden. As much as I hate Florida football (yes, I used the hate term, I'm a Florida hater), I liked to watch the guy run that offense. It was fun to watch. I can admit to that. And I can admit to how good he really was. At that level a leader, I mean a real leader, is rare.

Unfortunately, the skills, not the leadership, but the skills, do not transfer to playing quarterback in the NFL.

So is the criticism, most notably Esiason's and Hoge's "fair?"

In my mind, it is. Is it harsh? Oh, yeah.

But I think the anger at Esiason is more of an outlet for fans to show their frustration, more than anything, and a continuation of their anger at Hoge for using absolutes. Esiason said "right now," in his commentary. I think that is getting passed over, because people who support Tebow are frustrated with Hoge using absolutes. Keep in mind, Hoge is the only person to use an absolute.

Esiason's quick sound bite said he couldn't play, but examining the full context of what he said, there was the "right now" comment.

Hell, John Elway has used that same context thus far. He's said he's a fantastic athlete and a good human being, but he's not a good quarterback, right now.

Michael Silver's report adds to the "hate." If someone, or someones, in the organization said that to him, is he obligated to report it? That, to me, is the question. The answer in my mind is yes. However, the anonymous sources are the problem. Like Buff has very succinctly said in another thread, that's the problem. He harbors illusions of being football's Woodward and Bernstein, and doesn't quite grasp that this is a game, and part of the entertainment part of the newsroom, not the hard news or political side.

Of all the reports out there, I'd label his the most unfair. Why? Because he's actually "acting" as a journalist and a true member of the media.

Hoge and Esiason are not members of the media. They are columnists. Their job is to evoke thought from their "readers," and in this case viewers and listeners. They aren't meant to relay news. That's what gets lost.

(Sorry to mention politics) It's the same thing when people label MSNBC or Fox as partisan. No...they are not partisan, the hosts of their programming is. Its the same way with ESPN. They have true journalists, Palantonio, Kirkjean, Olney types, but there are more "columnists" on their network, than "journalists."

People forget that. So, is it fair? In my mind, yes.

MO, let me rephrase... Is it a justified evaluation to say that someone isn't an "NFL QB" when they are going into their 2nd season missing a full offseason with a lockout and getting no reps all of the prior season, yet played PRETTY WELL, for a rookie in 3 starts? Are people like Esiason and Hoge justified in their public criticism of Tim Tebow in those regards, in your opinion?

And if so, shouldn't they give the exact same criticism or worse to Cam Newton, who was drafted #1 overall and has the same mechanical issues that Tebow does, and played in a college spread similar to that of UF?

[MOtorboat]

MO, let me rephrase... Is it a justified evaluation to say that someone isn't an "NFL QB" when they are going into their 2nd season missing a full offseason with a lockout and getting no reps all of the prior season, yet played PRETTY WELL, for a rookie in 3 starts? Are people like Esiason and Hoge justified in their public criticism of Tim Tebow in those regards, in your opinion?

And if so, shouldn't they give the exact same criticism or worse to Cam Newton, who was drafted #1 overall and has the same mechanical issues that Tebow does, and played in a college spread similar to that of UF?

First of all, why aren't they justified in their opinion? They have afforded themself a position in which they are paid to have that opinion. Why are they not allowed that?

Cam Newton does not have the same mechanical problems as Tebow. He also was not the greatest player to ever play at the college ranks, same as the other players you mentioned. And Newton isn't struggling while Tebow is, so no, they shouldn't criticize a player who isn't struggling just because they criticize a player who is.

That said, this isn't about "fair," this is about opinion. And those "columnists" are telling you their opinion.

[Northman]

And Newton isn't struggling while Tebow is,

So 6/19 in passing is good? Really? :lol:

[BroncoStud]

First of all, why aren't they justified in their opinion? They have afforded themself a position in which they are paid to have that opinion. Why are they not allowed that?

Cam Newton does not have the same mechanical problems as Tebow. He also was not the greatest player to ever play at the college ranks, same as the other players you mentioned. And Newton isn't struggling while Tebow is, so no, they shouldn't criticize a player who isn't struggling just because they criticize a player who is.

That said, this isn't about "fair," this is about opinion. And those "columnists" are telling you their opinion.

Newton isn't struggling? Did you SEE his last game? He was horrible, pretty much as bad as it gets with accuracy. Do you REALLY think Cam Newton would beat our Kyle Orton right now in a QB competition? Hell no, he'd look just as raw as Tebow, because he is.

And you keep throwing around the word "opinion"... Can opinions be wrong? I believe they can. My point is fairly simple. Esiason says Tebow "can't throw" and that is simply not true, it's a false opinion. Tebow has proven he can throw. Hoge says that Tebow "doesn't belong in the NFL" and that too, is false. Tim did something as a rookie that only Vick has done, in the history of the NFL, plus he led a 17 point comeback against the Texans and nearly a 30 point comeback against the Chargers, in only his 2nd and 3rd starts, on his way to being a very solid redzone situational player last season.

Once again, these "opinions" are based on sensationalism and bias. And who says Tim Tebow is the greatest QB to ever play college football? Isn't that an "opinion" as well? There are plenty of QBs who could formulate a solid argument that they belong in that debate.

Silver isn't on the level of garbage that Hoge is because it appears that he actually was probably told those things here in Denver, by someone. Hoge is just throwing as much crap on the wall as he can hoping someething sticks.

The sad reality of this supposed "journalism" is that if Tebow does turn out to have a solid career then neither of these clowns will be held accountable for their "opinions" of bias. As polarizing as TT is his actual PLAY hasn't warranted the absurdity from guys like Hoge that he's been forced to deal with.

[MOtorboat]

And Newton isn't struggling while Tebow is,

So 6/19 in passing is good? Really? :lol:

A.) Not watching that game.

B.) He's still not Tebow.

[Northman]

A.) Not watching that game.

B.) He's still not Tebow.


Broham, come on.

Even against the 2nd and 3rd stringers the past couple of weeks Cam's passing hasnt been very good. He is certainly no better than Tebow right now in that regard.

Now, listen here you little midget. You need to get on the ball and quit being a non-Tebow fanboy. Get your shiznit together. :coffee::D

[MOtorboat]

And you keep throwing around the word "opinion"... Can opinions be wrong? I believe they can. My point is fairly simple. Esiason says Tebow "can't throw" and that is simply not true, it's a false opinion. Tebow has proven he can throw. Hoge says that Tebow "doesn't belong in the NFL" and that too, is false. Tim did something as a rookie that only Vick has done, in the history of the NFL, plus he led a 17 point comeback against the Texans and nearly a 30 point comeback against the Chargers, in only his 2nd and 3rd starts, on his way to being a very solid redzone situational player last season.

Once again, these "opinions" are based on sensationalism and bias. And who says Tim Tebow is the greatest QB to ever play college football? Isn't that an "opinion" as well? There are plenty of QBs who could formulate a solid argument that they belong in that debate.

Silver isn't on the level of garbage that Hoge is because it appears that he actually was probably told those things here in Denver, by someone. Hoge is just throwing as much crap on the wall as he can hoping someething sticks.

The sad reality of this supposed "journalism" is that if Tebow does turn out to have a solid career then neither of these clowns will be held accountable for their "opinions" of bias. As polarizing as TT is his actual PLAY hasn't warranted the absurdity from guys like Hoge that he's been forced to deal with.

When you watch SportsCenter at night at Merril Hoge is on there, it is not journalism, it is him being a columnist. He is looking at film and offering his opinion. He is not part of the "media." There is a huge distinction that people just cannot, for some reason, understand.

Silver is well above Hoge in "garbage" because he's actually "trying" to be fair.

Hoge is not trying to be fair. He's not trying to be objective. He is offering an opinion. Because that opinion is harsh doesn't mean its wrong, unfair or "hate." It is what it is.

Silver's report is worse, because he's saying it is objective and fair.

[Northman]

When you watch SportsCenter at night at Merril Hoge is on there, it is not journalism, it is him being a columnist. He is looking at film and offering his opinion. He is not part of the "media." There is a huge distinction that people just cannot, for some reason, understand.

Silver is well above Hoge in "garbage" because he's actually "trying" to be fair.

Hoge is not trying to be fair. He's not trying to be objective. He is offering an opinion. Because that opinion is harsh doesn't mean its wrong, unfair or "hate." It is what it is.

Silver's report is worse, because he's saying it is objective and fair.

While i dont think that Hoge "Hates" Tebow i do think his opinion is vastly unfair considering all the circumstances. Unfortuantely i Silver's case its only hearsay and that is if its even true. While it could be true the fact there is no one to back up his story speaks volumes to me as a reader.

[Tned]

Broham, come on.

Even against the 2nd and 3rd stringers the past couple of weeks Cam's passing hasnt been very good. He is certainly no better than Tebow right now in that regard.


I think Peter King just summed it up with this Tweet:


RT @SI_PeterKing: Take a leap of faith for Rivera to start Cam (6-19, 75, 0-0, 1 rush TD). Imagine if Carolina has the first pick in the Andrew Luck draft.

[Northman]

I think Peter King just summed it up with this Tweet:

Oh, i dont blame Carolina if they start Cam. At least they will know what they have in him by the end of the year. Denver meanwhile will continue to have the "what if" lingering about with Tebow.

[Tned]

Oh, i dont blame Carolina if they start Cam. At least they will know what they have in him by the end of the year. Denver meanwhile will continue to have the "what if" lingering about with Tebow.

Agreed, I was just pointing out to his comment about the leap of faith, because of the crap stats, and the fact that he could help Carolina be in the Luck sweepstakes.

[jhildebrand]

Oh, i dont blame Carolina if they start Cam. At least they will know what they have in him by the end of the year. Denver meanwhile will continue to have the "what if" lingering about with Tebow.

But Orton will have given us the best chance to win for ONE SEASON and will be gone and even if the Broncos won they will be back at ground zero at the QB position. :woot:

[jhildebrand]

"Fair" is a hard thing to define.

Is the coverage warranted? Yes. Tebow is probably the greatest college football player ever. None of the players you mentioned carry this burden. As much as I hate Florida football (yes, I used the hate term, I'm a Florida hater), I liked to watch the guy run that offense. It was fun to watch. I can admit to that. And I can admit to how good he really was. At that level a leader, I mean a real leader, is rare.

Unfortunately, the skills, not the leadership, but the skills, do not transfer to playing quarterback in the NFL.

So is the criticism, most notably Esiason's and Hoge's "fair?"

In my mind, it is. Is it harsh? Oh, yeah.

But I think the anger at Esiason is more of an outlet for fans to show their frustration, more than anything, and a continuation of their anger at Hoge for using absolutes. Esiason said "right now," in his commentary. I think that is getting passed over, because people who support Tebow are frustrated with Hoge using absolutes. Keep in mind, Hoge is the only person to use an absolute.

Esiason's quick sound bite said he couldn't play, but examining the full context of what he said, there was the "right now" comment.

Hell, John Elway has used that same context thus far. He's said he's a fantastic athlete and a good human being, but he's not a good quarterback, right now.

Michael Silver's report adds to the "hate." If someone, or someones, in the organization said that to him, is he obligated to report it? That, to me, is the question. The answer in my mind is yes. However, the anonymous sources are the problem. Like Buff has very succinctly said in another thread, that's the problem. He harbors illusions of being football's Woodward and Bernstein, and doesn't quite grasp that this is a game, and part of the entertainment part of the newsroom, not the hard news or political side.

Of all the reports out there, I'd label his the most unfair. Why? Because he's actually "acting" as a journalist and a true member of the media.

Hoge and Esiason are not members of the media. They are columnists. Their job is to evoke thought from their "readers," and in this case viewers and listeners. They aren't meant to relay news. That's what gets lost.

(Sorry to mention politics) It's the same thing when people label MSNBC or Fox as partisan. No...they are not partisan, the hosts of their programming is. Its the same way with ESPN. They have true journalists, Palantonio, Kirkjean, Olney types, but there are more "columnists" on their network, than "journalists."

People forget that. So, is it fair? In my mind, yes.

We don't agree nor see eye to eye on this subject but this was a very well stated point!

The only part I would nit pick on Esiason is bringing the God stuff into it.

We all know nobody would say something like: "Just because he's Allah-fearing, and a great person off the field, and was on an MTV show in High School, doesn't mean Ryan Harris' game is going to translate to the NFL."

We all know the outcry that would happen. Leave the God stuff out of it and Esiaison would have been just fine IMHO.

[Northman]

But Orton will have given us the best chance to win for ONE SEASON and will be gone and even if the Broncos won they will be back at ground zero at the QB position. :woot:

Playoffs or Bust. :laugh:

[jhildebrand]

Playoffs or Bust. :laugh:

I guess you can always dream...right? :confused:

I said 5-11, 6-10 but 4-12 for a 2nd year wouldn't surprise me either.

[MOtorboat]

Playoffs or Bust. :laugh:

Better win.

You sacked a coach before he could really implement a system. Better win now.

And I'm not laughing. He needs to win. Now.

[Northman]

I guess you can always dream...right? :confused:

I said 5-11, 6-10 but 4-12 for a 2nd year wouldn't surprise me either.

Oh, im expecting about 4-6 wins as well. But, the FO and coaching staff think apparently that Orton is the best chance to win so that tells me Fox is expecting playoffs this year.

[Northman]

Better win.

You sacked a coach before he could really implement a system. Better win now.

And I'm not laughing. He needs to win. Now.


Well, yes and no. By making the move to Orton Fox is telling me he is ready to win now. I dont see it that way after all the damage that McD did. But, when McD came in the team was already rebuilding on offense and was a lot closer to competing for the playoffs than where we are now. But, Fox thinks differently so im expecting playoffs since he thinks Orton is the answer at QB.

[TXBRONC]

Better win.

You sacked a coach before he could really implement a system. Better win now.

And I'm not laughing. He needs to win. Now.

Fox has to win right now because you say so? I might be wrong but I think that's Elway's domain.

[Lancane]

Better win.

You sacked a coach before he could really implement a system. Better win now.

And I'm not laughing. He needs to win. Now.

They sacked a coach that literally turned the organization into a horrid joke among NFL circles and likewise into a hapless media circus venue. McDaniels made liars of himself, the Broncos' Brass and also in the process hurt Bowlen's own image within the league and the fans. So it's not about implementing any system, it's about the decisions the moron made and overall effected the organization.

So stating that he better win and needs to win, I don't see it that way, he needs to build the team correctly because let's face it, Fox's status as a coach is questionable, his record is not that impressive. They're going to try and win now to get the fan base support that they've missed back, but even if they don't win, I don't see them firing Fox like they did McDaniels, they'll actually give him at least three years to get it going before they may decide to go a different route - I would say that Fox has three full seasons to get this club a winning season and playoff appearance, but if we are below .500 or exactly a .500 football team after that time then he's most likely gone.

[jhildebrand]

Better win.

You sacked a coach before he could really implement a system. Better win now.

And I'm not laughing. He needs to win. Now.

Tey sacked the coach for Spygate II. Record had nothing to do with it. They sacked a coach who lost his coaching staff-apparently a coach narced on him.

McD sacked himself. It is about the only sack he had.

They need to win because that is the expectation they are setting with all the Orton debacle! Not one person would have held EFX in anyway accountable for this season if they started Tebow and happened to tank the entire year. The fans know that is what they inherited. The fans wont be so forgiving after being sold this Orton 'gives us the best chance to win talk and it doesn't happen. The team tied their hitch to him to some degree with it when there was no need to.

[Ravage!!!]

Better win.

You sacked a coach before he could really implement a system. Better win now.

And I'm not laughing. He needs to win. Now.

Sacking that particular coach was the BEST thing this sinking ship could do before he dragged BENEATH the floor of the ocean.

Firing that particular coach actually SAVED fans from leaving. Fox gets more years based purely on having to follow that JOKE of a coach.

[jhildebrand]

Let's also be real and acknowledge that he wasn't installing a system here. One minute it was ZBS, then PBS, then Both. One season was safe dink and dunk and the next spread it around. There is no other way to put it than we were to McD what the Browns were to Belichick a place to cut his teeth for giggles.

[Tned]

Tey sacked the coach for Spygate II. Record had nothing to do with it. They sacked a coach who lost his coaching staff-apparently a coach narced on him.

McD sacked himself. It is about the only sack he had.



They fired him because he destroyed the team AND then topped it off by embarrassing Bowlen. If he hadn't been 5-17 in his last 22 games, he could have survived the Spygate II incident.

[Canmore]

They fired him because he destroyed the team AND then topped it off by embarrassing Bowlen. If he hadn't been 5-17 in his last 22 games, he could have survived the Spygate II incident.

McDaniels probably would have survived Spygate II if he had been winning. He wasn't, and it was the final nail in a very full coffin.

[jhildebrand]

They fired him because he destroyed the team AND then topped it off by embarrassing Bowlen. If he hadn't been 5-17 in his last 22 games, he could have survived the Spygate II incident.

I don't think he could have survived Spygate regardless of record. Obviously being 5-17 only made it easier.

[Lancane]

They fired him because he destroyed the team AND then topped it off by embarrassing Bowlen. If he hadn't been 5-17 in his last 22 games, he could have survived the Spygate II incident.

I think there is more to it, but I can't confirm my suspicions either. I think McDaniels started to cross the line the minute he tried to trade Cutler, he not only lied about it, but was told pretty much by Bowlen or so I believe to fix it because Cutler was the quarterback, and McDaniels sort of made sure that there was no reconciliation between the organization and Cutler, and eventually left no choice (strike one). McDaniels' media circus off-season actually causes people to start reporting that "Bowlen is senile" (strike two), the image of such a well respected owner hurts the organization with the league and fans. He then has a so-so draft but does something monumentally stupid, he trades a first round pick for a scrub cornerback, now coaches and general managers tend to make similar mistakes at some point in their career, but we'll come back to it.

So after a horrid off-season that already caused some damage the team starts off hot only to fall flat on all fronts, but we saw some improvement defensively, the offense wasn't as great and people started to really gripe about Cutler being traded and the dismantlement of the second overall offense, and Bowlen is hearing this and is concerned. So what does McDaniels do? He causes another media circus off-season, Bowlen specifically states he wants Brandon Marshall to remain a Bronco, McDaniels says much the same...but there is no effort made in fixing the situation, because we're cheap and I believe that McDaniels wanted it to play out the way it did, so Marshall get's traded (strike three). Hillis supposedly hit on McDaniels wife, we're hearing that Hillis fits into his plans, who is a fan favorite, like Cutler and Marshall were before he got here and then suddenly he's traded for a quarterback - now this is the interesting part from what I gathered, Bowlen just a week before openly states to the media that Denver would be looking to add a quarterback most likely in the draft, McDaniels doesn't want Orton and wants to trade him, so he trades Hillis for what could look to be personal issues for Brady Quinn - his backup plan (strike four).

Now it's well known at this point that Bowlen wanted Sam Bradford, so what happens? McDaniels tries to trade up for Bradford, but he doesn't have the value, which is sort of ironic because if he had not traded that first round pick for Alphonso Smith then more then likely he could have acquired another first as he did to get Tebow, and would have had three firsts, more then enough IMHO to get Bradford, which is ironic that he now coaches the kid, and instead of drafting McCoy who was a better passer and fit his offense a little better he drafts a project quarterback in the first round, in an attempt to keep his job or that is the common belief (strike five).

So they lose Nolan, the team is horrific at this point on both fronts, no matter the statistics because we're seeing the complete demise of the Broncos, the foundation wasn't cracking it was shattering at this point at breakneck speed. Martindale is not just bad, but real bad and Nolan who fielded a much better defense left because he couldn't get along with McDaniels. Then not only are we losing, we're getting worse, fans are turning on the team, on everyone one...the media is reporting the trouble. McDaniels is ripping into the staff, the players, then comes Spy-Gate II (strike six, seven, eight and nine being Spy-Gate II itself). Bowlen had really no choice but to clean house, though he didn't want to for fiscal reasons.

Now, is there a way he could have kept his job? I believe that if he would have drafted Sanchez or Freeman the year before, or done better with his drafts and shown more progress or even added Bradford, possibly even McCoy then he could have maybe earned a third season...but he didn't, I believe he created to much in the way of an avalanche to stem the flow of destruction his ineptitude had created at that point because there was really no light to be seen at the end of the tunnel sort-to-speak.

[Ravage!!!]

God I'm so glad we did't draft Sanchez. Seriously, he's not better than Orton.

But McDaniels wrote his ticket out of town the moment he tried to trade Cutler for Cassle and lied about it.

[chazoe60]

I think there is more to it, but I can't confirm my suspicions either. I think McDaniels started to cross the line the minute he tried to trade Cutler, he not only lied about it, but was told pretty much by Bowlen or so I believe to fix it because Cutler was the quarterback, and McDaniels sort of made sure that there was no reconciliation between the organization and Cutler, and eventually left no choice (strike one). McDaniels' media circus off-season actually causes people to start reporting that "Bowlen is senile" (strike two), the image of such a well respected owner hurts the organization with the league and fans. He then has a so-so draft but does something monumentally stupid, he trades a first round pick for a scrub cornerback, now coaches and general managers tend to make similar mistakes at some point in their career, but we'll come back to it.

So after a horrid off-season that already caused some damage the team starts off hot only to fall flat on all fronts, but we saw some improvement defensively, the offense wasn't as great and people started to really gripe about Cutler being traded and the dismantlement of the second overall offense, and Bowlen is hearing this and is concerned. So what does McDaniels do? He causes another media circus off-season, Bowlen specifically states he wants Brandon Marshall to remain a Bronco, McDaniels says much the same...but there is no effort made in fixing the situation, because we're cheap and I believe that McDaniels wanted it to play out the way it did, so Marshall get's traded (strike three). Hillis supposedly hit on McDaniels wife, we're hearing that Hillis fits into his plans, who is a fan favorite, like Cutler and Marshall were before he got here and then suddenly he's traded for a quarterback - now this is the interesting part from what I gathered, Bowlen just a week before openly states to the media that Denver would be looking to add a quarterback most likely in the draft, McDaniels doesn't want Orton and wants to trade him, so he trades Hillis for what could look to be personal issues for Brady Quinn - his backup plan (strike four).

Now it's well known at this point that Bowlen wanted Sam Bradford, so what happens? McDaniels tries to trade up for Bradford, but he doesn't have the value, which is sort of ironic because if he had not traded that first round pick for Alphonso Smith then more then likely he could have acquired another first as he did to get Tebow, and would have had three firsts, more then enough IMHO to get Bradford, which is ironic that he now coaches the kid, and instead of drafting McCoy who was a better passer and fit his offense a little better he drafts a project quarterback in the first round, in an attempt to keep his job or that is the common belief (strike five).

So they lose Nolan, the team is horrific at this point on both fronts, no matter the statistics because we're seeing the complete demise of the Broncos, the foundation wasn't cracking it was shattering at this point at breakneck speed. Martindale is not just bad, but real bad and Nolan who fielded a much better defense left because he couldn't get along with McDaniels. Then not only are we losing, we're getting worse, fans are turning on the team, on everyone one...the media is reporting the trouble. McDaniels is ripping into the staff, the players, then comes Spy-Gate II (strike six, seven, eight and nine being Spy-Gate II itself). Bowlen had really no choice but to clean house, though he didn't want to for fiscal reasons.

Now, is there a way he could have kept his job? I believe that if he would have drafted Sanchez or Freeman the year before, or done better with his drafts and shown more progress or even added Bradford, possibly even McCoy then he could have maybe earned a third season...but he didn't, I believe he created to much in the way of an avalanche to stem the flow of destruction his ineptitude had created at that point because there was really no light to be seen at the end of the tunnel sort-to-speak.


I posted a theory on another MB right after McD got fired that i want to add to this Lan.

The morning McD got fired he was allowed to give a press conference and he stated that Tebow would not start. He said Orton was the starter. Now I always found it funny that he was not fired that morning and that he was indeed allowed to give that conference.

To me it's obvious that McD was on an extremely short leash but I don't think Pat was sure about gettimg rid of him until after the PC. I have always thought that not benching Orton was the final straw that got him fired. Why else let him give a PC that morning.

I also think Studesville was told to start Orton for one more week because if they would have started Tim right away it would have been extremely obvious that that decision was a big factor and Studesville would have looked like a puppet and not a HC. Pat didn't want to come off lookijg like Al Davis or Jerry Jones but he want a switch at QB also.

[Lancane]

I posted a theory on another MB right after McD got fired that i want to add to this Lan.

The morning McD got fired he was allowed to give a press conference and he stated that Tebow would not start. He said Orton was the starter. Now I always found it funny that he was not fired that morning and that he was indeed allowed to give that conference.

To me it's obvious that McD was on an extremely short leash but I don't think Pat was sure about gettimg rid of him until after the PC. I have always thought that not benching Orton was the final straw that got him fired. Why else let him give a PC that morning.

I also think Studesville was told to start Orton for one more week because if they would have started Tim right away it would have been extremely obvious that that decision was a big factor and Studesville would have looked like a puppet and not a HC. Pat didn't want to come off lookijg like Al Davis or Jerry Jones but he want a switch at QB also.

I think the whole issue of quarterbacks, the trading of Cutler - how it was handled, the Orton issue, along with the Bradford, Tebow and Quinn issues, I believe it all played a factor, I've long said that Bowlen is an offensive minded owner, so you may have a good point with your post Chazoe.

[I Eat Staples]

I know the definition, clearly you do not. So, you're just trolling at this point, with no real purpose?

Good to know.


This comment is derived from asking me what the word means when I wasn't even the one using it? LOL. You're a fraud.

Arguing definitions online is the most pointless thing ever. You know you both googled it anyway, even if you knew what it meant, just to be sure. :elefant:

[Stargazer]

I've long said that Bowlen is an offensive minded owner

Then why is John Fox here?

[Lancane]

Then why is John Fox here?

I think Elway had more to do with Fox getting the job then Bowlen did Gaze, I think John saw in Fox what he had been use to for most of his career in Denver, someone who would restore the defense, and run a very similar offense. You have to realize that Fox would remind him of Reeves in many ways, his approach to the game, his reliance on the defense and conservative offensive style. If you compare the two Reeves and Fox there are many similarities, they didn't go with a west coast offense coach like Dennison who would have instilled a high powered offense in Denver, and let's not forget that Bowlen hired Shanahan who ran a high powered offense in San Francisco, then hired McDaniels who ran a high powered offense in New England. Bowlen has long proven he's offensive minded, it's not like Wade Phillips was horrific, but the minute that he realized the offense was suffering, Phillips barely had time to clean out his office before being given the boot. The two men that he targeted to replace Phillips, one was considered an offensive genius at the collegiate level, the other was Shanahan who was considered an offensive genius at the pro level. Remember that many said the same of McDaniels as well when we hired him.

The one qualm I have though is that I feel Elway forgot one key point, and while I love Reeves and thought highly of him, if not for having an elite quarterback his record in Denver would have been far worse. Fox's biggest criticism in Carolina was his lack to fix the offense, his lack to focus an effort to make the offense better and his record shows it, let's face it - most of his offenses were comparable to our defenses for a long time, mediocre or worse, while his defenses were better, but if not for three winning seasons then Fox is considered a very mediocre coach. Can anyone tell me who recommended John Fox or how is name came up for the Head Coaching position in Denver? It's because of Jim Fassel, a coach who once coached under Reeves and had great rapport with Elway and had actually coached him before at Stanford, that's the connection for Fox with Denver, he was Fassel's defensive coordinator in New York. Who else has a job because of Fassel? Sean Payton was the quarterback coach for New York under Fassel, who uses a variant Erhardt-Perkins offense, and who is our defensive coordinator? Ah.... And we should not forget that Studesville was the running back coach for the very same team. Our whole team is built through Elway's association and closeness with Jim Fassel. And what coaching tree does Fassel hail from? Landry's Run & Shoot (grandfather of the spread offensive system) under Reeves and the Erhardt Spread via Bill Parcells and Erhardt himself in New York, and I should add Bill Belichick.

[Stargazer]

I think Elway had more to do with Fox getting the job then Bowlen did Gaze, I think John saw in Fox what he had been use to for most of his career in Denver, someone who would restore the defense, and run a very similar offense. You have to realize that Fox would remind him of Reeves in many ways, his approach to the game, his reliance on the defense and conservative offensive style. If you compare the two Reeves and Fox there are many similarities, they didn't go with a west coast offense coach like Dennison who would have instilled a high powered offense in Denver, and let's not forget that Bowlen hired Shanahan who ran a high powered offense in San Francisco, then hired McDaniels who ran a high powered offense in New England. Bowlen has long proven he's offensive minded, it's not like Wade Phillips was horrific, but the minute that he realized the offense was suffering, Phillips barely had time to clean out his office before being given the boot. The two men that he targeted to replace Phillips, one was considered an offensive genius at the collegiate level, the other was Shanahan who was considered an offensive genius at the pro level. Remember that many said the same of McDaniels as well when we hired him.

If I'm an offense minded owner, John Fox wouldn't sniff the rocky mountains. No f'n way I'd hire him.

[Stargazer]

And what Head Coach gets another Head Coaching gig in the NFL after starting the season with Matt Moore as your QB and going 2-14?

[Lancane]

And what Head Coach gets another Head Coaching gig in the NFL after starting the season with Matt Moore as your QB and going 2-14?

Read above and you'll see how Fox got the job, I was adding to my post before I read this one. It explains how Fox got the job, the connections to Reeves and Elway and so on.

[broncoFan!]

I posted a theory on another MB right after McD got fired that i want to add to this Lan.

The morning McD got fired he was allowed to give a press conference and he stated that Tebow would not start. He said Orton was the starter. Now I always found it funny that he was not fired that morning and that he was indeed allowed to give that conference.

To me it's obvious that McD was on an extremely short leash but I don't think Pat was sure about gettimg rid of him until after the PC. I have always thought that not benching Orton was the final straw that got him fired. Why else let him give a PC that morning.

I also think Studesville was told to start Orton for one more week because if they would have started Tim right away it would have been extremely obvious that that decision was a big factor and Studesville would have looked like a puppet and not a HC. Pat didn't want to come off lookijg like Al Davis or Jerry Jones but he want a switch at QB also.

Pretty good post. Worthy of a high five imho. In all honesty though, I feel that Studesville kind of was a puppet coach. We saw that against the Cardinals... 43-14.

I think Studes wanted to start Tebow but wasn't able to... would be interesting if he was our coach but I don't think he would make a good choice overall as our head coach.

[Tned]

McDaniels probably would have survived Spygate II if he had been winning. He wasn't, and it was the final nail in a very full coffin.


I don't think he could have survived Spygate regardless of record. Obviously being 5-17 only made it easier.

We'll never know, because he wasn't winning. FWIW, I'm in the same camp as Canmore, I think the embarrassment to the organization was the final nail, because he wasn't winning. If the team had been 8-4 or 7-5 and within striking distance of the playoffs, or even if it looked like his plan was coming together, and the team was on the upswing, then I think he would have survived the London incident.

[TXBRONC]

Then why is John Fox here?


If I'm an offense minded owner, John Fox wouldn't sniff the rocky mountains. No f'n way I'd hire him.



Bowlen "comfortable" with what Broncos coach Fox brings to table
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 08/26/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

Bowlen cares first about winning, but if given a choice of styles, he prefers having a big-time quarterback and offense that can put up the points. Fans like their football that way. But the offensive-minded Shanahan and McDaniels couldn't win, at least not enough, without an Elway-like quarterback. Meanwhile, the unattended defense gradually slipped from mediocre to dreadful.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18760899?_requestid=1637145

This is part of the reason he got hired.

I do strongly recommend that you read the article it's very good.

Elway has the same kind of mind set and think in the nearby future we will see the Broncos searching for a big time quarterback.

[SOCALORADO.]

This is part of the reason he got hired.

I do strongly recommend that you read the article it's very good.


Bowlen "comfortable" with what Broncos coach Fox brings to table
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 08/26/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

Bowlen cares first about winning, but if given a choice of styles, he prefers having a big-time quarterback and offense that can put up the points. Fans like their football that way. But the offensive-minded Shanahan and McDaniels couldn't win, at least not enough, without an Elway-like quarterback. Meanwhile, the unattended defense gradually slipped from mediocre to dreadful.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...uestid=1637145

http://ataylorblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/andrew-luck.jpg

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/31/0e/Matt%2BBarkley%2BUSC%2Bv%2BUCLA%2BzKC8tAESzP8l.jpg

[TXBRONC]

http://ataylorblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/andrew-luck.jpg

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/31/0e/Matt%2BBarkley%2BUSC%2Bv%2BUCLA%2BzKC8tAESzP8l.jpg

Maybe.

[Agent of Orange]

I posted a theory on another MB right after McD got fired that i want to add to this Lan.

The morning McD got fired he was allowed to give a press conference and he stated that Tebow would not start. He said Orton was the starter. Now I always found it funny that he was not fired that morning and that he was indeed allowed to give that conference.

To me it's obvious that McD was on an extremely short leash but I don't think Pat was sure about gettimg rid of him until after the PC. I have always thought that not benching Orton was the final straw that got him fired. Why else let him give a PC that morning.

I also think Studesville was told to start Orton for one more week because if they would have started Tim right away it would have been extremely obvious that that decision was a big factor and Studesville would have looked like a puppet and not a HC. Pat didn't want to come off lookijg like Al Davis or Jerry Jones but he want a switch at QB also.

In McDaniels last game coaching, his father was on the sidelines at Kansas City. You don't think the writing was on the wall?

[Lancane]

In McDaniels last game coaching, his father was on the sidelines at Kansas City. You don't think the writing was on the wall?

More then likely he knew it was getting close, he was being seen as a monster towards his staff because of reports, worse with the players and how he wrecked an NFL organization, his dad could have been on the sideline as a way to humanize himself to others, or because he wouldn't get many more chances for his father to see him as a head coach.

[Agent of Orange]

More then likely he knew it was getting close, he was being seen as a monster towards his staff because of reports, worse with the players and how he wrecked an NFL organization, his dad could have been on the sideline as a way to humanize himself to others, or because he wouldn't get many more chances for his father to see him as a head coach.

Or maybe Bowlen started a new policy where coaches under a certain age can't be on the sideline without being accompanied by a parent or adult?

[Ravage!!!]

Or maybe Bowlen started a new policy where coaches under a certain age can't be on the sideline without being accompanied by a parent or adult?

Maybe his dad was there to keep an eye out for Joshy's potty mouth.

[Lancane]

Or maybe Bowlen started a new policy where coaches under a certain age can't be on the sideline without being accompanied by a parent or adult?

Hahahaha.... :lol:

[Agent of Orange]

Maybe his dad was there to keep an eye out for Joshy's potty mouth.

Maybe McDaniels was serious when he told Matt Prater "my dad can beat up your dad". And so McDaniels brought his dad there to try to prove it.