Thoughts From our Week 2 Preseason Game

[Ziggy]

Orlando Franklin gets my vote for most improved player. He was solid in pass blocking, and dominated in run blocking. He handled Dareus all night long when they matched up. Dareus's sack came while he was being double teamed by Walton and Kuper.

Von Miller comes off the edge faster than anyone currently in the NFL. He has another gear and great balance turning the corner. Granted, the Bills left tackle is garbage, but it wouldn't have mattered who was blocking on the sack.

Brandon Lloyd is back in 2010 form.

Eric Decker may change the way teams scout slot receivers. For the most part, they have been small, quick guys. Decker will create some serious matchup problems this season.

Zane Beadles is the biggest liability on this offensive line.

Joe Mays takes more bad angles than a drunken Great Clips employee.

Brady Quinn once again looked solid.

The number of kickoff returns at Mile High this season will be in the single digits.

This defense will be more aggressive and play with an attitude. We won't be watching QB's sit back in the pocket, drinking a cup of java while waiting for thier receivers to come open this season.

Denver still has problems stopping the run, but it's by no fault of Brodrick Bunkley. He's a stud at the LOS. Most of the Bills runs came with Ayers and Vick playing the D tackles in nickle packages.

Our backup offensive line is about as efficient as a soup sandwhich.

This team still needs a legitimate fullback.

[Nomad]

Franklin did a fine job!

[BroncoWave]

I :lol:'ed at the "soup sandwich" line!

[horsepig]

A soup sandwich could be pretty good.

I saw Beadles & Clady make a few pretty good run blocks.

[Ziggy]

Clady looked great out there. I think he's back to his 2009 form. Beadles makes some plays, but he also looks lost out there at times. The play at the 1 yard line where McGehee got hit behind the line was a good example. Beadles got blown back and knocked to the ground with his helmet flying, destroying the entire play. Willis did a good job just getting back to the LOS.

[Lancane]

Orlando Franklin gets my vote for most improved player. He was solid in pass blocking, and dominated in run blocking. He handled Dareus all night long when they matched up. Dareus's sack came while he was being double teamed by Walton and Kuper.

Von Miller comes off the edge faster than anyone currently in the NFL. He has another gear and great balance turning the corner. Granted, the Bills left tackle is garbage, but it wouldn't have mattered who was blocking on the sack.

Brandon Lloyd is back in 2010 form.

Eric Decker may change the way teams scout slot receivers. For the most part, they have been small, quick guys. Decker will create some serious matchup problems this season.

Zane Beadles is the biggest liability on this offensive line.

Joe Mays takes more bad angles than a drunken Great Clips employee.

Brady Quinn once again looked solid.

The number of kickoff returns at Mile High this season will be in the single digits.

This defense will be more aggressive and play with an attitude. We won't be watching QB's sit back in the pocket, drinking a cup of java while waiting for thier receivers to come open this season.

Denver still has problems stopping the run, but it's by no fault of Brodrick Bunkley. He's a stud at the LOS. Most of the Bills runs came with Ayers and Vick playing the D tackles in nickle packages.

Our backup offensive line is about as efficient as a soup sandwhich.

This team still needs a legitimate fullback.

I had to comment on your stopping the run 'thoughts' and I was checking today and did you know that John Fox during his time in Carolina had only two top ten run stopping defenses during his tenure? And I am not joking...in fact his first season they were 8th against the run, in 2005 they were 4th against the run, other then that their average was in the high teens, it's actually their pass defense which was really good, they only ranked out of the top ten passing defenses like four times, one of which they were 11th overall. So it looks like Fox's defense will be a very blitz orientated 'Bend Don't Break' defense, so I'm more glad we drafted Miller now because he fits into Fox's philosophy better, the same with Moore (tough little S.O.B).

:beer:

[Ziggy]

I had no idea Lancane. Great find. Truth be told, the Broncos first super bowl winning team was one of the worst teams in the NFL against the run, but they also had the great offense to make up for it. I hope Marcus Thomas gets back soon.

[Dean]

I had no idea Lancane. Great find. Truth be told, the Broncos first super bowl winning team was one of the worst teams in the NFL against the run, but they also had the great offense to make up for it. I hope Marcus Thomas gets back soon.

As you implied, if the offense can give a solid lead, the defense will see fewer rushing plays called. The ball will be in the air.

[Tned]

Some of the things I was looking for, and my thoughts.

Run game: I was hoping to see us more dominant in the run game. While we weren't bad on the outside, and Moreno at times looked better than in the past, we still weren't opening up many holes between the tackles.

Pass protection: The line looked mostly good here. With Clady now fully healed, and once Franklin gets a little more experience with NFL game speed, I think this 0-line is going to be very good both in pass protection and running (at least running behind the tackles). Did anyone pay attention to the type of run blocking? I often don't focus on that, but I heard on the radio after last game that they were mostly zone blocking in the run game.

DB's: Moore seemed to be all over the field, and while Cox got turned around on the one TD, if Dawkins can still produce, it looks like we will have a very solid secondary.

Front seven: I've been thinking for a while now that our front seven could actually turn out to be a strength. Losing the two DTs hurt that, but Bunkley showed a couple flashes, so maybe the "got talent, but lazy" will finally be shed in Denver -- time will tell.

I've been real excited about moving DJ back to WLB, which if I remember correctly is where he played in college when he was known as a playmaker. It gives him a chance to show off his speed. If Mays (or whoever) can be 'solid' at MLB, the Broncos should have one of the best LB corps in the NFL. Von Miller's speed on the pass rush is down right amazing. I think in most cases we are going to see Ayers and Von on one side and Doom and DJ on the other. That's a lot for teams to contend with, since they won't know which of those four are going to rush/blitz on any given play.

Tempered by the fact that it was the Bills, who some have rated as as a worse team than the Broncos, I was very encouraged by what I saw last night.

I think of the areas I went in hoping to see good production (S, pass rush, running game), the only areas I still have some reservations is the running game. It was solid at times, but still looks to be well short of dominant.

[BroncoJoe]

Love our Linebackers. We could not only have one of the best set in the league, but we have outstanding backups as well.

[BeefStew25]

Bunkley was disruptive.

[BroncoJoe]

Nate Irving seemed to be around the ball all the time too.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Nate Irving seemed to be around the ball all the time too.

I meant to pay attention but how was he in comparison to Mays?

[CoachChaz]

I meant to pay attention but how was he in comparison to Mays?

Mays couldnt take a good angle if you paid him too. Oh wait...we do. Irving is raw and seems a little unsure at times, but that will change with experience and playing time. He's definitely a keeper

[BeefStew25]

Mays couldnt take a good angle if you paid him too. Oh wait...we do. Irving is raw and seems a little unsure at times, but that will change with experience and playing time. He's definitely a keeper

Chaz what did you think of Moores hit?

[Mike]

I got to go to the game last night and while I am taking it all with a grain of salt (it was the Bills after all), here were my thoughts:

Orton looked very solid. While I don't like him, if the offensive and defense units run like that then there is no argument against him starting. He will not lose games himself, so his conservative style will work as long as the run game and defense hold up. Quinn looked shaky at times, but looked better than last year and had some nice passes. Fans wanted Tebow and were restless with Quinn taking a lot of snaps. The stadium was ready for him and then were let down with Fox's conservative playcalling when he got in. A lot of unhappy people when the 4th stringer came in.

Moreno looked solid. Still has happy feet and still slightly impatient, but overall better than last year. McGahee will be Denver's greatest addition (not drafted). I love the way Fox is using the RBs as receivers. Both RBs might do more damage catching out of the backfield than running. But they can still run well enough. Not crazy about Ball, Minor looked promising, would have like to see more Jeremiah Johnson.

WRs are solid. Lloyd is not a one hit wonder. Decker looks to be getting some looks and is open a lot. Kind of disappointed that Royal isn't more involved. Davis and Willis both look promising, but with Anderson taking a lot of KR/PR duties, one might be out.

Julius Jones was getting open a lot and will be a stud IF he learns to block. Pretty bad. But the is the first game that I actually saw the promise that some people were talking about in camp.

O-line looked solid, I liked what I saw in both pass and run protection. Not there yet, but this line is already much better than what we saw last year.

Doom is the man. Love having him back.

DTs will be a problem...as if we didn't know that already. Teams will run against Denver again this year. Be prepared for it. If Buffalo doesn't go away from the run, the score and maybe the outcome of the game would have been different.

Miller will be a beast. Very impressed with him tonight. He is like a bullet out there. Amazing off the snap.

DJ played as well as I have seen him play in years. If he plays at this level, Denver would be crazy to trade him.

MLB is a weakness. Mays just wasn't very impressive to me and I was a fan of his last year.

Liked what I saw from our secondary. Moore is young, but I think he will be a good pick once he hits his stride.

Like I said, it was hard to tell how good Denver was and how bad Buffalo is, but right now this team looks promising.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Mays couldnt take a good angle if you paid him too. Oh wait...we do. Irving is raw and seems a little unsure at times, but that will change with experience and playing time. He's definitely a keeper

Thanks, I was hoping that was the case. I saw some of that (& read) re: Mays here but was consoling myself with Haggan being an experienced vet... I kept missing out on Irving...

[Mike]

Chaz what did you think of Moores hit?

Fans were pretty pissed at that call. We didn't have the benefit of replay on it, but it looked like a solid hit. As a DB I just don't know how you can play it different. Your job is to dislodge the player from the ball and it looked like that is what Moore did. Looked like he led with his arms or shoulder instead of launching with his helmet.

You guys tell me...what did you see? And what happened afterwards, all I saw was pushing and shoving.

[BroncoJoe]

I watched it a few times. I don't think Moore lead with his helmet. The issue (supposedly) is he hit the receiver while in the air - defenseless. Absurd rule, IMO.

[BeefStew25]

I watched it a few times. I don't think Moore lead with his helmet. The issue (supposedly) is he hit the receiver while in the air - defenseless. Absurd rule, IMO.

Here is a great read on it.

Basically, we need to set the tone on D. And 7 is right, that is how you get Mile High loud again.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_18726671

[gregbroncs]

Fans were pretty pissed at that call. We didn't have the benefit of replay on it, but it looked like a solid hit. As a DB I just don't know how you can play it different. Your job is to dislodge the player from the ball and it looked like that is what Moore did. Looked like he led with his arms or shoulder instead of launching with his helmet.

You guys tell me...what did you see? And what happened afterwards, all I saw was pushing and shoving.

It did not look to me like he really launched himself at the receiver. But it was a hard hit on a defensless receiver. I hate that call when he was in position the receiver still had a shot at the ball. I don't think he should get fined but he probably will.

The Dumervill roughing the passer call looked like a worse call to me. He backed off when he could have slammed him to the turf. His arm did get up by his helmet but he did not hit him in the helmet more like the angle he hit at pushed his arm up ther.

[Dzone]

Moore clearly led with his shoulder..No doubt about it and should not have been a call...after the game I heard that Moore said "What else am I supposed to do?"...It wasnt dirty. I didnt even need to see the replay and I knew right away the hit was shoulder first. It was obvious. Just like they are taught.

Kind of disappointing to hear the announcers villifying Moore

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Moore clearly led with his shoulder..No doubt about it and should not have been a call...after the game I heard that Moore said "What else am I supposed to do?"...It wasnt dirty. I didnt even need to see the replay and I knew right away the hit was shoulder first. It was obvious. Just like they are taught.

Kind of disappointing to hear the announcers villifying Moore

Maybe Jones will offer to pay his fine, ala Ocho... :confused: :laugh:

[Dzone]

Cant say enough about that pass rush.

Btw, whats the scouting report on our first opponent , Oakland? Better or worse than last year? Im already getting fired up about that opener on monday night football. National television audience. Oakland at Denver. Oh man, its going to be so fantastic.

[Mike]

Ok, here it is. As a DB this is how you are supposed to play it. Stupid new rule.

http://youtu.be/p4MiDrxfZVY

[Dzone]

Maybe Jones will offer to pay his fine, ala Ocho... :confused: :laugh:
Great idea. Jones wasnt even hurt that bad. He got up and walked off. Hats off to Moore for having the wherewithall to make sure his helmet didnt smash into the guys face.

[BroncoJoe]

Ok, here it is. As a DB this is how you are supposed to play it. Stupid new rule.

http://youtu.be/p4MiDrxfZVY

His helmet did hit the receiver on the chin, but that was completely incidental IMO. It is pretty clear (again, to me) that Moore was trying not to use his helmet.

[MOtorboat]

The unfortunate thing that popped into my head when I heard what Moore supposedly said walking away, "how else am I supposed to play it?" (Or however that was phrased), was: Kanoy Kennedy.

I really hope this doesn't change his mindset.

[Nomad]

I agree it's football, but Moore should of hit lower and he would of been fine. Guaranteed if this would have been Decker receiving the hit, BRONCO fans would be screaming foul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MiDrxfZVY

[Northman]

Dunno, i hate the rule. Saw a simliar play in the Houston/New Orleans game last night where a Texan defender got flagged and even the commentators thought it was a poor call.

[Northman]

From what i see in that clip Nomad Moore lead with his shoulder WHICH IS WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Should not be fined and should not have been flagged if it was. Bogus call.

[Nomad]

Dunno, i hate the rule. Saw a simliar play in the Houston/New Orleans game last night where a Texan defender got flagged and even the commentators thought it was a poor call.

Can't hit high anymore....either they live by the rule or they'll die by the rule with penalties and fines.

[Tned]

From what i see in that clip Nomad Moore lead with his shoulder WHICH IS WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO. Should not be fined and should not have been flagged if it was. Bogus call.

I think the question is did he launch. If you leave your feet (up or forward) to hit a defenseless receiver, then it's a personal foul. They revised the rules this year and modified the definition of launching.

[Northman]

Can't hit high anymore....either they live by the rule or they'll die by the rule with penalties and fines.


He hit him in the chest, not the head. Do you have the rule about that? I would love to see it because i dont recall the rule stating you cant tackle or hit the chest area. You just cant have helmet to helmet.

[atwater27]

One thing is for sure. We will be throwing to running backs ALOT. Knowshawn could have 50 or more catches.
I watched the moore hit a lot of times. It seemed clean to me. The receiver wasn't even really up in the air either. Hearing all the drama queens holler and whinnie about how dirty it was made me want to check out the clip on youtube. Please. He led with his shoulder and didn't even jump into it, he was on the ground and upright with his head high, the receiver wasn't even in the air. The injury was caused by the receiver hitting the ground. The NFL got a problem with that, along with the new kickoff rules.... let's change it to flag football.

[Northman]

I think the question is did he launch. If you leave your feet (up or forward) to hit a defenseless receiver, then it's a personal foul. They revised the rules this year and modified the definition of launching.

Yea, i went back and watched it again to make sure if whether or not he launched himself. He comes off his feet a little but i think it was more for bracing for the impact rather than "truly" launching himself at the player. Pretty poor call in my mind. I know its an imperfect science but i also think its another way for the NFL to jew the players into paying fines.

[Northman]

One thing is for sure. We will be throwing to running backs ALOT. Knowshawn could have 50 or more catches.
I watched the moore hit a lot of times. It seemed clean to me. The receiver wasn't even really up in the air either. Hearing all the drama queens holler and whinnie about how dirty it was made me want to check out the clip on youtube. Please. He led with his shoulder and didn't even jump into it, he was on the ground and upright with his head high, the receiver wasn't even in the air. The injury was caused by the receiver hitting the ground. The NFL got a problem with that, along with the new kickoff rules.... let's change it to flag football.


Im drafting McGahee today. He's going to be kicking ass this year. :D

[shank]

I agree it's football, but Moore should of hit lower and he would of been fine. Guaranteed if this would have been Decker receiving the hit, BRONCO fans would be screaming foul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MiDrxfZVY

i'm not saying it wasn't a foul. as the rule is written, the receiver was defenseless... but that hit was not dirty, and shouldn't result in a fine. i would say the same thing if it was the other way around.

[Dzone]

Hey didnt that same Bills D kick the crap outta Chicago's starters last week? Well, that was against a playoff team. That can only indicate one thing: We are better than Chicago and we are heading to the playoffs.




:pound:

[atwater27]

Hey didnt that same Bills D kick the crap outta Chicago's starters last week? Well, that was against a playoff team. That can only indicate one thing: We are better than Chicago and we are heading to the playoffs.




:pound:

Marcell Dareus has 2 sacks in 2 games. Looks like he is exactly what our D needs. Too bad he wasn't there when we were picking.

[spikerman]

He hit him in the chest, not the head. Do you have the rule about that? I would love to see it because i dont recall the rule stating you cant tackle or hit the chest area. You just cant have helmet to helmet.

I have the rule from the NCAA rulebook. I couldn't swear to it, but my guess would be that the rule is either the exact same or very similar in the NFL.

From the NCAA rule book: (Bolded parts are bolded in the rule book)

Rule 9-1-3 and 9-1-4


Targeting/Initiating Contact With the Crown of the Helmet

ARTICLE 3. No player shall target and initiate contact against an opponent with the crown (top) of his helmet. When in question, it is a foul.

Defenseless Player: Contact to Head or Neck Area

ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and initiate contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, elbow or shoulder. When in question, it is a foul.


I know that I'm in the minority, but if the NFL rule is the same as the college rule, I firmly believe that it was the right call.

[spikerman]

Hey didnt that same Bills D kick the crap outta Chicago's starters last week? Well, that was against a playoff team. That can only indicate one thing: We are better than Chicago and we are heading to the playoffs.




:pound:

That 3rd Lombardi Trophy is going to look spectacular at the Paul Bowlen Center! :beer:

[Tned]

Yea, i went back and watched it again to make sure if whether or not he launched himself. He comes off his feet a little but i think it was more for bracing for the impact rather than "truly" launching himself at the player. Pretty poor call in my mind. I know its an imperfect science but i also think its another way for the NFL to jew the players into paying fines.

FWIW, he's a description of some of this years rule's changes:


There also are further restrictions on the ability to “launch” and level a defenseless player (i.e. leaving both feet prior to contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent or using any part of the helmet).

Not only will there be a 15-yard unnecessary roughness penalty but the launching defender can be ejected from the game if the action is judged flagrant by the officiating crew.

..

Prohibited contact against a player in a defenseless position was further defined as “forcibly hitting the neck or head area with the helmet, facemask, forearm or shoulder regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him.” It is also illegal to lower the head and make forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.

...

“This will permanently change the mentality, we think, of the defensive back trying to separate the ball in that you’ve got to lower your aim point,” McKay said. “The aim point has got to come into the numbers or below as opposed to above because you have to give that player an opportunity to defend themselves.”

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-owners-approve-new-rules-changes-defensive-players-might-not-like-052411

[atwater27]

I have the rule from the NCAA rulebook. I couldn't swear to it, but my guess would be that the rule is either the exact same or very similar in the NFL.

From the NCAA rule book: (Bolded parts are bolded in the rule book)

Rule 9-1-3 and 9-1-4




I know that I'm in the minority, but if the NFL rule is the same as the college rule, I firmly believe that it was the right call.

What exactly is a defenseless player? Can someone run around with his arms behind him and get a penalty flag on anyone who touches him?

[Tned]

Marcell Dareus has 2 sacks in 2 games. Looks like he is exactly what our D needs. Too bad he wasn't there when we were picking.

Von Miller hasn't exactly looked like a scrub.

[atwater27]

FWIW, he's a description of some of this years rule's changes:



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-owners-approve-new-rules-changes-defensive-players-might-not-like-052411

I think Roger Goodell should personally show the players how to acceptably tackle a receiver going up for the ball. put on pads and show them. This league is losing me. No, seriously, this is the 1st year in the last 7 that I am not playing fantasy football, and my interest in preseason is the lowest it has ever been. The NFL better watch out, I feel they are about to slowly but surely lose their fanbase, and therefore, lose money. Between the kickoff rule, the lockout, the pussification of the rules and ridiculous ticket prices, they are losing me.

[Northman]

I have the rule from the NCAA rulebook. I couldn't swear to it, but my guess would be that the rule is either the exact same or very similar in the NFL.

From the NCAA rule book: (Bolded parts are bolded in the rule book)

Rule 9-1-3 and 9-1-4




I know that I'm in the minority, but if the NFL rule is the same as the college rule, I firmly believe that it was the right call.

Uh yea, but he hit him in the chest. I still dont see a broken rule there.

[Dzone]

I think Miller is as good as advertised. Dareus is too, but I would rather have Miller. Miller was in the backfield continuously last night. Miller is going to make more plays per game as a LB than Dareus will as a DT

[atwater27]

Von Miller hasn't exactly looked like a scrub.

Agreed. My problem is this.....I feel that there are ALOT more decent OLB's out there in the college and NFL ranks than decent pass rushing DT's. It's a rarity issue for me. If you have great DT talent in front of you, DO NOT PASS IT UP!

[Northman]

I think Miller is as good as advertised. Dareus is too, but I would rather have Miller. Miller was in the backfield continuously last night. Miller is going to make more plays per game as a LB than Dareus will as a DT

I havent really looked but how has our 1st string D been against the run? Thats really what is most important. If we can shore up the run stoppage than taking Miller was a good thing.

[Dzone]

I saw Bunkley doing pretty good a few times. Looked strong pushing into the backfield. IIRC he got to the qb on one play that had a penalty

[spikerman]

What exactly is a defenseless player? Can someone run around with his arms behind him and get a penalty flag on anyone who touches him?

Sorry, again I can only reference the NCAA rule book, but in there a defenseless player is defined as:


A defenseless player is one who, because his physical position and focus of concentration, is especially vulnerable to injury. Examples of defenseless players are:

a. A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
b. A receiver whose focus is on catching a pass.
c. A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball.
d. A kick returner whose focus is on catching or recovering a kick in the air.
e. A player on the ground at the end of a play.
f. A player obviously out of the play.

[spikerman]

Uh yea, but he hit him in the chest. I still dont see a broken rule there.

I just watched the YouTube replay again and you can clearly see the receiver's head snap back because of contact from the crown of Moore's helmet.

[Northman]

I just watched the YouTube replay again and you can clearly see the receiver's head snap back because of contact from the crown of Moore's helmet.

We are definitely not seeing the same thing then. The recievers head snaps back because of the impact from Moore's hit with his shoulder. Not because of the crown of his helmet.

[I Eat Staples]

Orlando Franklin gets my vote for most improved player. He was solid in pass blocking, and dominated in run blocking. He handled Dareus all night long when they matched up. Dareus's sack came while he was being double teamed by Walton and Kuper.

Von Miller comes off the edge faster than anyone currently in the NFL. He has another gear and great balance turning the corner. Granted, the Bills left tackle is garbage, but it wouldn't have mattered who was blocking on the sack.

Brandon Lloyd is back in 2010 form.

Eric Decker may change the way teams scout slot receivers. For the most part, they have been small, quick guys. Decker will create some serious matchup problems this season.

Zane Beadles is the biggest liability on this offensive line.

Joe Mays takes more bad angles than a drunken Great Clips employee.

Brady Quinn once again looked solid.

The number of kickoff returns at Mile High this season will be in the single digits.

This defense will be more aggressive and play with an attitude. We won't be watching QB's sit back in the pocket, drinking a cup of java while waiting for thier receivers to come open this season.

Denver still has problems stopping the run, but it's by no fault of Brodrick Bunkley. He's a stud at the LOS. Most of the Bills runs came with Ayers and Vick playing the D tackles in nickle packages.

Our backup offensive line is about as efficient as a soup sandwhich.

This team still needs a legitimate fullback.

Spot on analysis IMO. I'll add that Ayers seems just about useless at DT.

As for the Moore hit, that IS an illegal hit in today's game. Makes me sad to see the game become so soft. I hate players being punished for playing good, tough football.

[spikerman]

We are definitely not seeing the same thing then. The recievers head snaps back because of the impact from Moore's hit with his shoulder. Not because of the crown of his helmet.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong play. It seems pretty obvious to me. No big deal. Either way, at least the guy is ok.

[Agent of Orange]

We are definitely not seeing the same thing then. The recievers head snaps back because of the impact from Moore's hit with his shoulder. Not because of the crown of his helmet.

I thought the helmets made contact but it was after the initial hit, which was shoulder to the breast plate. For all anyone knows most of the helmet contact was from the Bills WRs head snapping forward more than it's from Moore lauching himself at his head. But there was also no leading with the crown.

[EMB6903]

I agree it's football, but Moore should of hit lower and he would of been fine. Guaranteed if this would have been Decker receiving the hit, BRONCO fans would be screaming foul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MiDrxfZVY

I wouldnt be upset at all and Im still confused as to whats dirty about it.

he led with the shoulder and didnt make direct contact with the opposing players helmet.

Lets put flags on these players because its getting to become a joke, I understand the "player safety" aspect that David Stern errrr Roger Goodell is trying to bring into the game but....

Arent these players making millions of dollars?

I hate to sound cold hearted but shouldnt there be some risk involved?

Football is a brutal game..(Well it was anyways) I think the players know what they are getting into when they sign those checks.

[atwater27]

Sorry, again I can only reference the NCAA rule book, but in there a defenseless player is defined as:

a. A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
b. A receiver whose focus is on catching a pass.

Thanks for the rule post, by the way :2thumbs:

I think these 2 rules are waaaaaaaaay to vague and up in the air for interpretation. A QB in the act of throwing should be fair game IMO.

And "focusing" is a weird word. Does the NFL really just want the QB's and the recievers to have a 3 yard bubble around them like a punt returner?

[Agent of Orange]

Spot on analysis IMO. I'll add that Ayers seems just about useless at DT.

As for the Moore hit, that IS an illegal hit in today's game. Makes me sad to see the game become so soft. I hate players being punished for playing good, tough football.

It doesnt bother me that they're trying to make the game safer but what bothers me is that they keep taking things away that the defense can do and never give anything back to make up for it. If they're going to limit the DBs so severely, then they really need to get rid of things like face guarding and the no contact beyond 5 yards rule.

[atwater27]

I wouldnt be upset at all and Im still confused as to whats dirty about it.

he led with the shoulder and didnt make direct contact with the opposing players helmet.

Lets put flags on these players because its getting to become a joke, I understand the "player safety" aspect that David Stern errrr Roger Goodell is trying to bring into the game but....

Arent these players making millions of dollars?

I hate to sound cold hearted but shouldnt there be some risk involved?

Football is a brutal game..(Well it was anyways) I think the players know what they are getting into when they sign those checks.

Yeah. I wonder what the union would do if the NFL just said no more hitting. It woudl drastically reduce risk, and therfore should drastically reduce salary and compensation, right? Nooooow I see what Godell is doing.

[Nomad]

I haven't seen anyone call it a dirty play perhaps a violation of the rule. Tned found the rules and if you disagree I guess you'll have to deal with it.

Rahim hits a little lower with the same intensity no questions asked. Again, either adjust to the rules or get penalized/fined and perhaps cost the team.

[spikerman]

I haven't seen anyone call it a dirty play perhaps a violation of the rule. Tned found the rules and if you disagree I guess you'll have to deal with it.

Rahim hits a little lower with the same intensity no questions asked. Again, either adjust to the rules or get penalized/fined and perhaps cost the team.

Agreed, I don't think it was dirty at all, but I do think it was a foul. I've worked some semi-pro games where you could tell that the db was trying to hurt the receiver. That usually makes for a short night for the db, but I didn't get that from Moore at all. Imo, he was just trying to make a play, but it was a foul.

[Agent of Orange]

BTW, the game is on NFLN now and I just watched the sequence that led up to the hit by Moore. In addition to the borderline penalty on Moore, there was also the borderline roughing the passer on Dumervil.

I agree with Atwater. The way the NFL tinkers with rules really sucks. Im still not sure why Doom was flagged.

[jhildebrand]

Week 2 thoughts:

Zane beadles in goalline situations is TERRIBLE! On the 1st and 2nd down plays at the goal line, Beadles was either pulling to his right or simply following the play to the right and trying to get low and both times he was prompltly put on his ass easily. I don't think it is a coincidence that both plays were directed to the right towards Franklin.

Franklin looks pretty good overall.

Not sure how I feel about the Moore penalty call. If he does nothing, there is a good chance the guy catches the ball. I agree with Moore's sentiment. Ultimately, I love the play (sends a message to the entire league that Moore is a body rocker). Glad Jones is ok.

Tebow stood in the pocket and delivered a BEAUTIFUL and spot on deep ball. Butterfingers wearing 42 should have been able to haul that in. If so, Tebow's numbers are 2/2 and for 60 yards or so. Not sure why Tebow played so little.

Orton analysis

Here is my analysis of Orton's game. While all accounts are he had a good game, and he did, there are still a lot of the same problems he had last year.

Dareus created some pressure early. Orton barely moved in the pocket bumped into his own guy and went down.

Orton's first pass to Lloyd was, once again, more Lloyd making a great catch than Orton making a good throw. If that was a back shoulder throw, it was even worse. Simply put that was a bad throw by Orton.

Orton had Royal wide open and couldn't lead Royal. The ball was also high. Again, as the announcers mentioned, Royal probably should make that catch but Orton could have led him. If he had, that would have been for a large gain.

Orton stumbles coming out from center. His own footwork, he wasn't stepped on.

Tipped passes.

Finally, my biggest issue is Orton still SEEMS to be 1st read than dump off to the RB. 1:55 to go Orton went one read than dump to Moreno with Lloyd wide open. Good play over all but Lloyd was there for more.

Now I am not ragging on Orton. As I said, he had a good game. I simply bring this up for two reasons. After Tebow had the long pass last week many proclaimed the WR had to adjust to the ball and Orton would have led him. I think the plays referenced above clearly show that isn't such an easy statement to back up. Also, Orton is still making many of the same mistakes he always has and for a 7th year vet he shouldn't be making them.

[Agent of Orange]

I have another observation. DJ Williams looked good last night.

When DJ is the like the 5th best player on your defense, he's pretty good. When he's one of your two best like he should have been last year in theory, he's not so good.

[Northman]

Week 2 thoughts:

Zane beadles in goalline situations is TERRIBLE! On the 1st and 2nd down plays at the goal line, Beadles was either pulling to his right or simply following the play to the right and trying to get low and both times he was prompltly put on his ass easily. I don't think it is a coincidence that both plays were directed to the right towards Franklin.

Franklin looks pretty good overall.

Not sure how I feel about the Moore penalty call. If he does nothing, there is a good chance the guy catches the ball. I agree with Moore's sentiment. Ultimately, I love the play (sends a message to the entire league that Moore is a body rocker). Glad Jones is ok.

Tebow stood in the pocket and delivered a BEAUTIFUL and spot on deep ball. Butterfingers wearing 42 should have been able to haul that in. If so, Tebow's numbers are 2/2 and for 60 yards or so. Not sure why Tebow played so little.

Orton analysis

Here is my analysis of Orton's game. While all accounts are he had a good game, and he did, there are still a lot of the same problems he had last year.

Dareus created some pressure early. Orton barely moved in the pocket bumped into his own guy and went down.

Orton's first pass to Lloyd was, once again, more Lloyd making a great catch than Orton making a good throw. If that was a back shoulder throw, it was even worse. Simply put that was a bad throw by Orton.

Orton had Royal wide open and couldn't lead Royal. The ball was also high. Again, as the announcers mentioned, Royal probably should make that catch but Orton could have led him. If he had, that would have been for a large gain.

Orton stumbles coming out from center. His own footwork, he wasn't stepped on.

Tipped passes.

Finally, my biggest issue is Orton still SEEMS to be 1st read than dump off to the RB. 1:55 to go Orton went one read than dump to Moreno with Lloyd wide open. Good play over all but Lloyd was there for more.

Now I am not ragging on Orton. As I said, he had a good game. I simply bring this up for two reasons. After Tebow had the long pass last week many proclaimed the WR had to adjust to the ball and Orton would have led him. I think the plays referenced above clearly show that isn't such an easy statement to back up. Also, Orton is still making many of the same mistakes he always has and for a 7th year vet he shouldn't be making them.


Great analysis. I will watch the game later tonight.

And i agree, even if Orton had a great game i think it still is due to the short passing game. Now the only difference is we actually have a RB (McGahee) who can get in the endzone both by rushing and by receiving and that is going a long way. But during the season when opposing defenses decide to force Orton to go long is where the problems of Orton's game becomes critical again. Orton needs to be able to stretch the field, its a MUST.

[Agent of Orange]

Brady Quinn looks better than Orton. Just sayin'...

[jhildebrand]

Great analysis. I will watch the game later tonight.

And i agree, even if Orton had a great game i think it still is due to the short passing game. Now the only difference is we actually have a RB (McGahee) who can get in the endzone both by rushing and by receiving and that is going a long way. But during the season when opposing defenses decide to force Orton to go long is where the problems of Orton's game becomes critical again. Orton needs to be able to stretch the field, its a MUST.

Keep an eye on Beadles on the plays I mentioned. It is downright embarassing if you ask me!

[Agent of Orange]

#85 sucks at blocking.

[Tned]

a. A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
b. A receiver whose focus is on catching a pass.

Thanks for the rule post, by the way :2thumbs:

I think these 2 rules are waaaaaaaaay to vague and up in the air for interpretation. A QB in the act of throwing should be fair game IMO.

And "focusing" is a weird word. Does the NFL really just want the QB's and the recievers to have a 3 yard bubble around them like a punt returner?

• A player in the act or just after throwing a pass.

• A receiver attempting to catch a pass or one who has not completed a catch and hasn’t had time to protect himself or hasn’t clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player.

• A runner whose forward progress has been stopped and is already in the grasp of a tackler.

• A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air.

• A player on the ground at the end of a play.

• A kicker/punter during the kick or return.

A quarterback any time after a change of possession (i.e. turnover).

• A player who receives a “blindside” block when the blocker is moving toward his own end-line and approaches the opponent from behind or the side.

[tomjonesrocks]

I'm in the middle of watching the replay and that Moore hit is pretty surprising. I generally prefer hard-hitting safeties and I thought I read that wasn't what Moore was about.

I think the play was pretty dirty though. He comes in with his shoulder direct to the helmet on a play where the receiver is defenseless. The fact that this is preseason makes the hit worse. That said I think the bulk of the damage to Jones was done with the back of his head smashing off the turf and not so much the shoulder-to-head hit.

Very mixed on it though. I hope this means Moore's going to be a hard-nosed, feared safety back there but I don't need him knocking players unconscious on pointless plays and getting hit with 15-yard penalties and suspensions.

[jhildebrand]

Another thought I forgot to mention:

No matter how hard Denver tried to bury and break Perrish Cox, the guy is making it impossible for them. His play has been strong for two weeks now.

[Bugs Baloney]

Team looked 100% better than a year ago. Fox>MCD

[Northman]

Another thought I forgot to mention:

No matter how hard Denver tried to bury and break Perrish Cox, the guy is making it impossible for them. His play has been strong for two weeks now.


His play will make it difficult but just like Marshall they are very good players but horrible characters and that is disappointing. I dont see how he escapes jail time though.

[spikerman]

Team looked 100% better than a year ago. Fox>MCD

I agree about Fox and McD, but to be fair - my recently clipped toenail> McD.

[MOtorboat]

Another thought I forgot to mention:

No matter how hard Denver tried to bury and break Perrish Cox, the guy is making it impossible for them. His play has been strong for two weeks now.

I just watched Cox get abused by Tyler Thigpen, so he makes a few plays here or there, but he's not a guy you build your defense around. He's a nice nickel back, but I don't think he'd be a permanent fixture at CB even if he wasn't going to jail in a few months.

[Medford Bronco]

Team looked 100% better than a year ago. Fox>MCD

that goes without saying:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute::sal ute:

McD is a horrible coach and rips the guts out of this team. Fox is just trying to pick up the pieces and has a system that should have us with a better D and more dicipline (sp) I Like that. A hard nosed team finally. It has been years since that.

[Ziggy]

After watching the game again, our nickel defense simply cannot stop the run. Playing Ayers and Vickerson at the defensive tackle spots isn't working. The base D with Bunk and Vick are fine in the middle, but something is going to have to be done outside of that base alignment if this team is going to succeed this season.

Sadly, Marcus Thomas may be the key to our D line this season. I'll also be looking for them to bring in at least 1, may 2 D tackles off of the waiver wire. At this point, some other teams 3rd and 4th stringers are more talented than our backups at that position.

[MOtorboat]

After watching the game again, our nickel defense simply cannot stop the run. Playing Ayers and Vickerson at the defensive tackle spots isn't working. The base D with Bunk and Vick are fine in the middle, but something is going to have to be done outside of that base alignment if this team is going to succeed this season.

Sadly, Marcus Thomas may be the key to our D line this season. I'll also be looking for them to bring in at least 1, may 2 D tackles off of the waiver wire. At this point, some other teams 3rd and 4th stringers are more talented than our backups at that position.

Thought Bunkley played pretty well. Of course, Buffalo's interior line is terrible, but...

[Ziggy]

Thought Bunkley played pretty well. Of course, Buffalo's interior line is terrible, but...

Bunk played great, but the Broncos were in the nickel packages early and often. He wasn't on the field in those alignments.

[MOtorboat]

Thought Bunkley played pretty well. Of course, Buffalo's interior line is terrible, but...

Bunk played great, but the Broncos were in the nickel packages early and often. He wasn't on the field in those alignments.

He wasn't? Didn't he make the knockdown and almost INT in second and long in the nickel package?

[spikerman]

After watching the game again, our nickel defense simply cannot stop the run. Playing Ayers and Vickerson at the defensive tackle spots isn't working. The base D with Bunk and Vick are fine in the middle, but something is going to have to be done outside of that base alignment if this team is going to succeed this season.

Sadly, Marcus Thomas may be the key to our D line this season. I'll also be looking for them to bring in at least 1, may 2 D tackles off of the waiver wire. At this point, some other teams 3rd and 4th stringers are more talented than our backups at that position.

Ziggy, I think most nickel defenses would struggle to stop the run so I don't think that's a huge deal. Typically, the big time run stuffers (although Denver doesn't have any) come out on the passing downs. I think that Denver is also going to struggle to stop the run from the base defense which is a lot more worrisome to me.

[spikerman]

After watching the replay today, one guy who I thought played fairly well and really seemed to have a lot of hustle was Mike Mohamed. I liked the effort.

[Ziggy]

He wasn't? Didn't he make the knockdown and almost INT in second and long in the nickel package?

I think you're referring to the play with 5:06 left in the first quarter where Bunk came in and knocked down the QB causing him to throw it high. That was a first and 10 with the base D on the field.

[Ziggy]

Ziggy, I think most nickel defenses would struggle to stop the run so I don't think that's a huge deal. Typically, the big time run stuffers (although Denver doesn't have any) come out on the passing downs. I think that Denver is also going to struggle to stop the run from the base defense which is a lot more worrisome to me.

Yeah Spike, it seems like most of the big runs on the base D went outside, which is OK with me. Those are usually a result of missed assignments rather than being manhandled. They are at least fixable. We have to remember that this D has only played together in this system for 3 weeks.

I certainly hope that Mays just had a bad night. He took horrible angles all night long, which led to a lot of those long runs.

[spikerman]

I kind of like Jarmon as a nickel DT. I have yet to see Ayers do anything as a pro.

[MOtorboat]

I think you're referring to the play with 5:06 left in the first quarter where Bunk came in and knocked down the QB causing him to throw it high. That was a first and 10 with the base D on the field.

I stand corrected. I thought I saw Miller with his hand down on the outside. I don't have the luxury of DVR, though, and I was watching from NFL Mobile, so that makes it a little rough.

[Northman]

Yea, im watching the replay now. While Quinn has some nice passes he has also had 2-3 close calls with possible Int's. I havent even gotten to the actual INT yet.

[MOtorboat]

Yea, im watching the replay now. While Quinn has some nice passes he has also had 2-3 close calls with possible Int's. I havent even gotten to the actual INT yet.

He looked for more confident in the second half. I'm not wondering if Fox/McCoy went in telling Orton and Quinn that Orton would play the whole half, and then after watching how well Orton ran the offense he decided to throw Quinn out there in the two minute and threw him off. He definitely looked better after the half.

Pure conjecture, of course...

[Northman]

Yea, actually im in the later part of the third so i must of missed the Int. We had thunderstorms that broke up my recording a bit. But i did just see him throw the pass to Davis for the TD which was perfect. I still question whether he can be an upper eschalon gunslinger as opposed to a lower one but i wouldnt mind seeing him over Orton. I think he makes it more exciting anyway.

[Tned]

Yea, im watching the replay now. While Quinn has some nice passes he has also had 2-3 close calls with possible Int's. I havent even gotten to the actual INT yet.

I haven't rewatched it yet, but while the INT itself was a tip, I seem to remember that he had easily 3-4 other balls that could have been picked.

[MOtorboat]

Yea, actually im in the later part of the third so i must of missed the Int. We had thunderstorms that broke up my recording a bit. But i did just see him throw the pass to Davis for the TD which was perfect. I still question whether he can be an upper eschalon gunslinger as opposed to a lower one but i wouldnt mind seeing him over Orton. I think he makes it more exciting anyway.

Plus, he looks like a model, so he has that going for him.

[Northman]

I haven't rewatched it yet, but while the INT itself was a tip, I seem to remember that he had easily 3-4 other balls that could have been picked.

Yea, i saw a couple in this second half that could of been picked. One he threw off his back foot. Big no no.

[Tned]

Yea, i saw a couple in this second half that could of been picked. One he threw off his back foot. Big no no.

And he had some good throws as well.

Personally, I see Orton and Quinn as very similar, but with Orton being a little less mistake prone.

[MileHighCrew]

And he had some good throws as well.

Personally, I see Orton and Quinn as very similar, but with Orton being a little less mistake prone.

I agree except I think Quinn has more upside

[Northman]

And he had some good throws as well.

Personally, I see Orton and Quinn as very similar, but with Orton being a little less mistake prone.

But i think that works against Kyle. Like i said in another thread Quinn is a risk taker much like Cutler so you live or die with that type of play. But with Orton he will always take the safe route even if it means losing a game. For me, i just like guys who are willing to try to win rather than play to lose.

[Tned]

But i think that works against Kyle. Like i said in another thread Quinn is a risk taker much like Cutler so you live or die with that type of play. But with Orton he will always take the safe route even if it means losing a game. For me, i just like guys who are willing to try to win rather than play to lose.

You may be right. The games I saw him in Cleveland, as well as what I've seen in preseason last year and this year, I haven't seen much gunslinger in Quinn. In Cleveland, I thought Anderson was the better playmaker. I would love to be wrong about him, have him win the job, and have a GREAT year, but I just am not convinced his upside is very high.

[Northman]

You may be right. The games I saw him in Cleveland, as well as what I've seen in preseason last year and this year, I haven't seen much gunslinger in Quinn. In Cleveland, I thought Anderson was the better playmaker. I would love to be wrong about him, have him win the job, and have a GREAT year, but I just am not convinced his upside is very high.


Well, and thats the catch. Gunslingers have upper eschalon guys and lower ones. Some gunslingers (upper) have more success than bad (lower). This is a few names i would state as Upper and Lower gunslingers.

Upper:

John Elway
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Brett Favre (earlier)
Aaron Rodgers
Big Ben

Lower:

Jake Plummer
Vinny Testeverde
Michael Vick
Matt Hasselback
Elvis Grbac
Brett Favre (later)
Carson Palmer
Tony Romo

On the fence:

Matt Schaub
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan

[Tned]

Well, and thats the catch. Gunslingers have upper eschalon guys and lower ones. Some gunslingers (upper) have more success than bad (lower). This is a few names i would state as Upper and Lower gunslingers.

Upper:

John Elway
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Brett Favre (earlier)
Aaron Rodgers
Big Ben

Lower:

Jake Plummer
Vinny Testeverde
Michael Vick
Matt Hasselback
Elvis Grbac
Brett Favre (later)
Carson Palmer
Tony Romo

On the fence:

Matt Schaub
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan

That's the thing, I haven't seen anything from Quinn to think he even fits in your lower tier group. I see him more as a Henne, Griese,Orton type player. Mostly a polished pro that can make most of the throws, but not a playmaker that is going to flourish when things break down.

[Northman]

That's the thing, I haven't seen anything from Quinn to think he even fits in your lower tier group. I see him more as a Henne, Griese,Orton type player. Mostly a polished pro that can make most of the throws, but not a playmaker that is going to flourish when things break down.


I agree to a point but i was only showing that the possibility is there. But, until we see what he does against more 1st string type of players/games it will be hard to determine. But, i do like what he has to offer vs Orton at this point just because of the fearlessness in him.

[Medford Bronco]

And he had some good throws as well.

Personally, I see Orton and Quinn as very similar, but with Orton being a little less mistake prone.

and Quinn having a stronger arm. They are about the same. I do agree. I can live with either for now. It does not see Tebow will get his chance. Hey I dont make the decisions. I am just a fan and will root for the QB on opening day and every game after. I just personally like Quinn better.

[Tned]

and Quinn having a stronger arm. They are about the same. I do agree. I can live with either for now. It does not see Tebow will get his chance. Hey I dont make the decisions. I am just a fan and will root for the QB on opening day and every game after. I just personally like Quinn better.

Funny, I also think Quinn has the stronger arm, but during camp, I read a number of articles/updates from beat and national reporters saying exactly the opposite.

[jhildebrand]

I just watched Cox get abused by Tyler Thigpen, so he makes a few plays here or there, but he's not a guy you build your defense around. He's a nice nickel back, but I don't think he'd be a permanent fixture at CB even if he wasn't going to jail in a few months.

I here you MO. I am not saying that. What I am saying is I think EFX had hoped they could break Cox by testing his will and burying him deep on the depth chart and break his will and see him basically quit.

It isn't working and in the end, as bad as it may be, they may both need each other because Jones is not an NFL player-not even a nickel or 3rd down guy.

[jhildebrand]

I will say this, we play Buffalo this regular season. I don't think Gailey gave out too much. I know I am giving Gailey a LOT of credit, too. However, they ran on us easily out the gate. Their opening drive was 7+ minutes :eek: I am not drinking the kool aid from this game. Our D will be a wreck again. Not #32 but also not #15.

[Canmore]

I will say this, we play Buffalo this regular season. I don't think Gailey gave out too much. I know I am giving Gailey a LOT of credit, too. However, they ran on us easily out the gate. Their opening drive was 7+ minutes :eek: I am not drinking the kool aid from this game. Our D will be a wreck again. Not #32 but also not #15.

I'm afraid your analysis is spot on. To be competitive we need to be middle of the road on defense. I have serious doubts.

[jhildebrand]

I'm afraid your analysis is spot on. To be competitive we need to be middle of the road on defense. I have serious doubts.

I consistently bring up the fact that their were league wide whispers that Dorsey, Hali, Jackson in KC were busts. They werent as evidenced by Hali's deal. The cupboard was just bare-not Dan Hawkins Bare-really BARE!

I feel denver is the same. We talk BUST too soon of Ayers and we might with Miller. This unit is a MESS and it will show by week 3 or 4 of the season. I will get flamed for being 'negative.' I just saw Buffalo shut it down yesterday after the opening drive FG. After the Jones hit they scaled it back even more just to try and get out of Denver injury free.

[Lancane]

I'm not really worried about the defense, the cornerstone pieces are in place; Moore, Dumervil and Miller, along with Williams and Bailey. That is a rather solid core group, especially in terms of youth. And if Bunkley proves to be a solid nose, then we could have lessened the need at the position, especially if Warren returns to shape, let's not forget despite the injury that Warren is only a nine year veteran and Williams is entering his eighth, Bunkley and Dumervil are both entering their sixth year in the league.

And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Fox's defenses have for the most part been weak against the run, his defenses are the epitome of 'Bend Don't Break', it must be in the air, because that gives me hope that we're headed in the right direction. The same type defense helped win us two Super Bowl championships and the Orange Crush was probably one of the most famous 'Bend Don't Break' defenses in the annals of the NFL, it works in Denver. Fox's defense is more reliant on pass rushing and turnovers then it is stopping the run, that's why Carolina had continually been one of the better pass defenses in the league. They'll improve and they'll do what we need most of out of them and that's to keep us in the game. But can our offense handle the other end of the spectrum? That's where my concern is, and especially with 'Horton' at the helm...

No matter what happens this year, I am a fan...but I look forward to next season once the team has really gelled and there has been a year of growth for all those involved...if we add the right pieces, we might actually be on our way to being a competitive football team once more.

[Canmore]

I'm not really worried about the defense, the cornerstone pieces are in place; Moore, Dumervil and Miller, along with Williams and Bailey. That is a rather solid core group, especially in terms of youth. And if Bunkley proves to be a solid nose, then we could have lessened the need at the position, especially if Warren returns to shape, let's not forget despite the injury that Warren is only a nine year veteran and Williams is entering his eighth, Bunkley and Dumervil are both entering their sixth year in the league.

And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Fox's defenses have for the most part been weak against the run, his defenses are the epitome of 'Bend Don't Break', it must be in the air, because that gives me hope that we're headed in the right direction. The same type defense helped win us two Super Bowl championships and the Orange Crush was probably one of the most famous 'Bend Don't Break' defenses in the annals of the NFL, it works in Denver. Fox's defense is more reliant on pass rushing and turnovers then it is stopping the run, that's why Carolina had continually been one of the better pass defenses in the league. They'll improve and they'll do what we need most of out of them and that's to keep us in the game. But can our offense handle the other end of the spectrum? That's where my concern is, and especially with 'Horton' at the helm...

No matter what happens this year, I am a fan...but I look forward to next season once the team has really gelled and there has been a year of growth for all those involved...if we add the right pieces, we might actually be on our way to being a competitive football team once more.

Are we going to give Orton an extension if he plays better on third down, the red zone and in crunch time? Or are we just spinning our wheels? Or are we playing Orton this season because he is the best choice for now and we try to improve the rest of our game. If we add the right pieces we may well be competitive, but to be competitive year in and year out we need an elite quarterback. At this point in time we don't have one of those.

[Lancane]

Are we going to give Orton an extension if he plays better on third down, the red zone and in crunch time? Or are we just spinning our wheels? Or are we playing Orton this season because he is the best choice for now and we try to improve the rest of our game. If we add the right pieces we may well be competitive, but to be competitive year in and year out we need an elite quarterback. At this point in time we don't have one of those.

I don't see us giving Orton an extension short of six miracle comebacks, carrying the team into the playoffs and being stellar in all phases of his position, I don't see them giving him a damn thing, not to mention that the fans would most likely start lynching people because of it.

The fact they went with Orton tells me a few things, that he has the better mechanics of the position, though not great. Makes better reads, check-downs and has a better understanding of the offense overall...none of which is surprising being that the offense is close enough to the same as McDaniels' own that I question the validity of some comments made by the staff that it was way different. I've seen a lot of McDaniels' playbook on the field, and that doesn't bode well, but makes sense why Orton is so head and shoulders above Quinn and Tebow with the staff.

I believe we'll be drafting someone come April, but for now they're going to do what they feel best to in order to win quicker then they planned, hoping to win some of the fans back.

[Canmore]

I don't see us giving Orton an extension short of six miracle comebacks, carrying the team into the playoffs and being stellar in all phases of his position, I don't see them giving him a damn thing, not to mention that the fans would most likely start lynching people because of it.

The fact they went with Orton tells me a few things, that he has the better mechanics of the position, though not great. Makes better reads, check-downs and has a better understanding of the offense overall...none of which is surprising being that the offense is close enough to the same as McDaniels' own that I question the validity of some comments made by the staff that it was way different. I've seen a lot of McDaniels' playbook on the field, and that doesn't bode well, but makes sense why Orton is so head and shoulders above Quinn and Tebow with the staff.

I believe we'll be drafting someone come April, but for now they're going to do what they feel best to in order to win quicker then they planned, hoping to win some of the fans back.

I agree with most everything you are saying. I think our QOTF is playing college ball and they are starting Orton because he is the soundest mentally and mechanically we have, although I think Quinn is giving him a run. Do I think he can over take him? No. There is still the spectre of Tebow.

[Lancane]

I agree with most everything you are saying. I think our QOTF is playing college ball and they are starting Orton because he is the soundest mentally and mechanically we have, although I think Quinn is giving him a run. Do I think he can over take him? No. There is still the spectre of Tebow.

If we combined the skills of all three we'd have one hell of a franchise quarterback, but separately the position might be just as weak as our defensive tackle position.

[Canmore]

If we combined the skills of all three we'd have one hell of a franchise quarterback, but separately the position might be just as weak as our defensive tackle position.

:lol: Now why didn't I think of that.

I think our quarterback situation is better than our defensive tackle situation, just barely, but that is really splitting hairs.

I will live with Orton for one season. Maybe he will surprise us.

[TXBRONC]

I watched it a few times. I don't think Moore lead with his helmet. The issue (supposedly) is he hit the receiver while in the air - defenseless. Absurd rule, IMO.

I thought they were nailing him for hitting him with crown of his helmet and for launching himself. As you said Moore didn't him with the crown of his helmet but I think he did leave his feet.

[vandammage13]

If we combined the skills of all three we'd have one hell of a franchise quarterback, but separately the position might be just as weak as our defensive tackle position.

What skills would you combine from Quinn??

I can see cherry picking some skill sets from Orton and Tebow, but I'm not sure that Quinn possesses anything that one of the other two guys don't.

[TXBRONC]

Agreed. My problem is this.....I feel that there are ALOT more decent OLB's out there in the college and NFL ranks than decent pass rushing DT's. It's a rarity issue for me. If you have great DT talent in front of you, DO NOT PASS IT UP!

I understand what you're to great degree I agree. But how many of those decent outside linebacker will be able to turn the corner the way Miller does?

[TXBRONC]

and Quinn having a stronger arm. They are about the same. I do agree. I can live with either for now. It does not see Tebow will get his chance. Hey I dont make the decisions. I am just a fan and will root for the QB on opening day and every game after. I just personally like Quinn better.


Funny, I also think Quinn has the stronger arm, but during camp, I read a number of articles/updates from beat and national reporters saying exactly the opposite.

Whoever has the better arm is neither here nor there. What is a concern for me is that Quinn like Orton doesn't seem to do well if has be on the move.