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DenBronx
08-20-2011, 10:57 PM
Who got **** blocked to 3rd string now?

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k272/DenBronx/k-ortonfx.jpg

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:00 PM
The fans will let Orton know all about it when he pees down his leg in real games.

underrated29
08-20-2011, 11:03 PM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:04 PM
Who got **** blocked to 3rd string now?

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k272/DenBronx/k-ortonfx.jpg

Orton should shut his mangina, since it's usually the only thing wide open when he plays!

Clipworthy
08-20-2011, 11:04 PM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

and you expected....what? It's Orton :lol:

Denver Native (Carol)
08-20-2011, 11:06 PM
This thread is totally unbelievable - Orton played great tonight.

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:06 PM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

I was prophetic.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1334984&postcount=9


It's not like it was hard though. Orton does this weak shit all the time.

chazoe60
08-20-2011, 11:06 PM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

And he never looked left. He took one look right then panicked and dropped to his ass.

Now, he played very well I will admit. But that kind of shit has to stop. When we start playing real games teams are going to start blitzing the crap out of Orton amd too many of those phantom sacks and people are going to start calling for his head.

socalthunder
08-20-2011, 11:06 PM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

It's his thing. That's what he does.

Clipworthy
08-20-2011, 11:07 PM
This thread is totally unbelievable - Orton played great tonight.

*(Against one of the worst teams in the entire NFL)

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:07 PM
Kyle Orton - The most hated (by the fans on his own team)above average quarterback in the last twenty years.

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:07 PM
This thread is totally unbelievable - Orton played great tonight.

People fully expect him to turn into a pumpkin.

DenBronx
08-20-2011, 11:07 PM
I don't get it.


We have years of tape on Orton and Quinn but hardly anything on Tebow.

If anyone needs the playing time it's him. Why even consider Quinn at this point? We just invested a 1st round for the guy and are already downgrading him. :rolleyes:

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:09 PM
I don't get it.


We have years of tape on Orton and Quinn but hardly anything on Tebow.

If anyone needs the playing time it's him. Why even consider Quinn at this point? We just invested a 1st round for the guy and are already downgrading him. :rolleyes:

Because teams want to give the snaps to the guys who may play more. At the moment, it looks like Tebow playing in any meaningful games is a pipe dream.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:09 PM
This thread is totally unbelievable - Orton played great tonight.

I've said it many times before, but the damage between the fans and Orton is done...there is nothing that will win him back the majority short of becoming elite and still then some will never support him.

;)

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:10 PM
Kyle Orton - The most hated (by the fans on his own team) very average quarterback in the last twenty years.

Sorry had to fix it! ;)

DenBronx
08-20-2011, 11:10 PM
This thread is totally unbelievable - Orton played great tonight.

I'll give him that. But the team openly tried to trade Orton and it fell through. If you're going to try and trade someone while thinking Tebow is the answer then why not actually give the guy a solid shot?

I didnt go to any of the camps but everyone is saying he did horrid in camp. However in live games he does very good. Why not get more tape on the kid?

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:11 PM
Sorry had to fix it! ;)

I know your comment at the least appears looks tongue-in-cheek, but if anyone thinks he's not above average they should stop watching football because they're watching something they don't understand.

/moderate sarcasm.

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:12 PM
I've said it many times before, but the damage between the fans and Orton is done...there is nothing that will win him back the majority short of becoming elite and still then some will never support him.

;)

I'm in that camp. Orton's a fraud. I'll never like him.

MOtorboat
08-20-2011, 11:12 PM
Amazing.

Newsflash: Tebow is third string because of Tebow, not because of Orton.

What a crap thread. Dude does well, and we still have to see the idiocy.

DenBronx
08-20-2011, 11:14 PM
I've said it many times before, but the damage between the fans and Orton is done...there is nothing that will win him back the majority short of becoming elite and still then some will never support him.

;)

I dont know Lancane. I know one thing that will win me over really fast. If we blowout the Raiders while Orton is our QB then that will instantly win over alot of fans.

Most every Ortonite will say he has never had a real defense here in Denver. Well, maybe we're not in the top 10 yet but we sure as hell look alot better than what we did last year. If he continues to look like a wet noodle in the redzone once the season starts I think fans will riot.

That said, we played the Bills. I'm not a believer yet.

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:15 PM
I know your comment at the least appears looks tongue-in-cheek, but if anyone thinks he's not above average they should stop watching football because they're watching something they don't understand.

/moderate sarcasm.

It's not some undeniable truth that he's above average. You can make a case for ranking him anywhere between 11-20.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:15 PM
I know your comment at the least appears looks tongue-in-cheek, but if anyone thinks he's not above average they should stop watching football because they're watching something they don't understand.

/moderate sarcasm.

Moderate Sarcasm isn't your style King, tell us how you really feel? :lol:

I'm sorry, I know people don't like it but as I said last year after sticking up for him for almost three-quarters of the season, I believe I saw him quit. I don't like his attitude nor his snide remarks, he can kiss my ass...I will not support him, defend him, I'm past ready for the Broncos to go on without him, whether it's with Brady Quinn or someone in the draft which is far more likely.

:beer:

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:16 PM
Amazing.

Newsflash: Tebow is third string because of Tebow, not because of Orton.

What a crap thread. Dude does well, and we still have to see the idiocy.

Go paint a fence, Huck!

MOtorboat
08-20-2011, 11:19 PM
Amazing.

Newsflash: Tebow is third string because of Tebow, not because of Orton.

What a crap thread. Dude does well, and we still have to see the idiocy.

Go paint a fence, Huck!

So, can you explain how Orton and Quinn did so well tonight? I mean, clearly, they suck...

hamrob
08-20-2011, 11:20 PM
This thread is totally unbelievable - Orton played great tonight.He typically does in the "Preseason"!

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:20 PM
So, can you explain how Orton and Quinn did so well tonight? I mean, clearly, they suck...

Quinn doesn't suck, take it back Mo, right this minute! :D

DenBronx
08-20-2011, 11:20 PM
So, can you explain how Orton and Quinn did so well tonight? I mean, clearly, they suck...

Yeah...uh they played Buffalo.


Let's see how good they do when we're playing the Chargers or Raiders.


You want to crown him then crown him!!!

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:23 PM
It's not some undeniable truth that he's above average. You can make a case for ranking him anywhere between 11-20.

Is it an undeniable truth? No. Can you actually form a good argument that he's not in the top 15?

I'll put it to you this way, I'm big on not agreeing with a standpoint but acknowledging one having merit if I disagree with it.

Let's break it down by division AFC North - Big Ben and Flacco are better. AFC South. Peyton Manning and Schuab are better.

AFC East - Brady is better.

AFC West - Rivers is better. I'll go ahead and give you Cassel as a sign that I'm not unreasonable.

NFC North - Cutler and Rodgers are better. NFC South - Brees and Ryan.

NFC East - Guess what, Orton is better than any of those guys. No, I'm not giving you Kolb either.

NFC West - Romo, Vick and Eli are better.

So no, anyone who is reasonable isn't going to have him ranked lower than 15th. Yes, you can make credible arguments that guys who aren't on my list are superior.

I can make just as many credible arguments the other way as well.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:23 PM
Yeah...uh they played Buffalo.


Let's see how good they do when we're playing the Chargers or Raiders.


You want to crown him then crown him!!!

Que the Dennis Green rant -


The Bears are what we thought they were; they’re what we thought they were. We played them in preaseason — who the hell takes a third game of the preseason like it’s bullshit, bullshit!? We played them in the third game — everybody played three quarters — the Bears are who we thought they were! And that’s why we took the damn field. Now if you want to crown them, then crown their ass! But they are who we thought they were, and we let ‘em off the hook!

:lol:

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:24 PM
Yeah...uh they played Buffalo.


Let's see how good they do when we're playing the Chargers or Raiders.


You want to crown him then crown him!!!

I wouldnt even bother responding to that troll. Clearly a preseason game means more than years of them playing regular season games. Some people embarrass themselves and they don't even realize it.

Reidman
08-20-2011, 11:24 PM
Orton = the new Plummer

:welcome:

MOtorboat
08-20-2011, 11:25 PM
Yeah...uh they played Buffalo.


Let's see how good they do when we're playing the Chargers or Raiders.


You want to crown him then crown him!!!

I wouldnt even bother responding to that troll. Clearly a preseason game means more than years of them playing regular season games. Some people embarrass themselves and they don't even realize it.

Tell us how smart you are...

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:26 PM
Orton = the new Plummer

:welcome:

Plummer was better, more talent and better tangibles, even more of a drive to succeed and win. No, he couldn't hold Plummer's crusty jockstrap...

:lol:

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:26 PM
I wouldnt even bother responding to that troll. Clearly a preseason game means more than years of them playing regular season games. Some people embarrass themselves and they don't even realize it.

I agree with that statement.

Mainly because I listen to people who speak on their experiences.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:28 PM
I agree with that statement.

Mainly because I listen to people who speak on their experiences.

"Watcha talkin' bout Willis?" :confused:

:D

chazoe60
08-20-2011, 11:28 PM
I remember a quote about someone asking a group of NFL FO people where they'd rank Orton and they almost all said somewhere between 18-25. That is below average.

The new TQBR had Orton ranked 21, that is below average. He was on the trading block and no one except the Dolphins even sniffed. There were quite a few QB hungry teams and none really wanted Orton.

Granted, Orton looked stellar tonight, but I've seen this movie before and it ends with the Broncos losing to the Raiders at home 59-14. I'll believe Orton is anything other than a game managing stop gap when I see it consistently while real live games are on the line. I'll believe it when I see Orton not piss down his leg under pressure.

If I'm wrong about Orton and proven wtong about Orton by him actually performing in the clutch and helping this team to some wins instead of helping them to embarrassing losses, I will gladly admit it.

broncobryce
08-20-2011, 11:30 PM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

He knows giving up a sack doesn't hurt HIS stats. He would rather do that than throw it away for an incomplete. And he knows he is more frail than my grandma.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:32 PM
Is it an undeniable truth? No. Can you actually form a good argument that he's not in the top 15?

If you're trying to claim he's 11-15, then that would still be in the middle third...which is average. But yeah, in Denver, a lot of Orton's stats have been fluff.



I'll put it to you this way, I'm big on not agreeing with a standpoint but acknowledging one having merit if I disagree with it.

Ill put it to you this way: that is one messy sentence. Moving on.


Let's break it down by division AFC North - Big Ben and Flacco are better. AFC South. Peyton Manning and Schuab are better.

AFC East - Brady is better.

AFC West - Rivers is better. I'll go ahead and give you Cassel as a sign that I'm not unreasonable.

NFC North - Cutler and Rodgers are better. NFC South - Brees and Ryan.

NFC East - Guess what, Orton is better than any of those guys. No, I'm not giving you Kolb either.

NFC West - Romo, Vick and Eli are better.

So no, anyone who is reasonable isn't going to have him ranked lower than 15th. Yes, you can make credible arguments that guys who aren't on my list are superior.

This kind of subjective ranking is kind of silly. Splitting hairs over whether Orton is better than Kolb (or someone else) doesn't mean he's not average. Like I said, you could make a case for him to be between 11-20, which is in the middle third--Average.


I can make just as many credible arguments the other way as well.

Except you kept saying top 15. Part of that is also average.

DenBronx
08-20-2011, 11:32 PM
Exactly, if Orton is above average then why wasnt the 5 or so QB hungry teams this offseason pounding on our door?


No one bit on Ortonary. :coffee:


Funny that the Bears had Orton yet gave two 1st for a real QB. Who did bring their horrible team to the NFCCG.


Until we beat the teams when it counts I'm not going to crown him.

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:33 PM
The new quarterback rating? Really? I read that and what it entailed. It's a floppy mathematical formula that tries really, really hard to quantify things that aren't quantifiable.


Take a look at Orton and then take a look at the league. Not just the Patriots, Colts, Chargers and Saints, the entire league, look at that. You'll quickly realize that Orton isn't bad, and no one can actually make a credible argument that he's bad or below average.

He's a polarizing figure for no reason. :tsk:

Reidman
08-20-2011, 11:35 PM
Plummer was better, more talent and better tangibles, even more of a drive to succeed and win. No, he couldn't hold Plummer's crusty jockstrap...

:lol:

Well i was referring more to the division among fans than in terms of gameplay..

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:37 PM
The new quarterback rating? Really? I read that and what it entailed. It's a floppy mathematical formula that tries really, really hard to quantify things that aren't quantifiable.


Take a look at Orton and then take a look at the league. Not just the Patriots, Colts, Chargers and Saints, the entire league, look at that. You'll quickly realize that Orton isn't bad, and no one can actually make a credible argument that he's bad or below average.

He's a polarizing figure for no reason. :tsk:


Except the formula is telling you the same thing that a message board full of Broncos fans are telling you about how Orton performs in certain situations, which happen to impact winning a lot.

DenBronx
08-20-2011, 11:37 PM
The new quarterback rating? Really? I read that and what it entailed. It's a floppy mathematical formula that tries really, really hard to quantify things that aren't quantifiable.


Take a look at Orton and then take a look at the league. Not just the Patriots, Colts, Chargers and Saints, the entire league, look at that. You'll quickly realize that Orton isn't bad, and no one can actually make a credible argument that he's bad or below average.

He's a polarizing figure for no reason. :tsk:

winning is the most important stat.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:37 PM
Well i was referring more to the division among fans than in terms of gameplay..

Ahhh...that. Yeah, I miss the quiet calm we had with Cutler, only a small number hated him.

:lol:

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:40 PM
winning is the most important stat.

Unfortunately as I've said we could hit .500 and people would still hate on him, maybe a few less if we are above 8-8, but not many or that is my opinion at least.

Reidman
08-20-2011, 11:41 PM
Ahhh...that. Yeah, I miss the quiet calm we had with Cutler, only a small number hated him.

:lol:

I kinda miss Cutler...:lol:

chazoe60
08-20-2011, 11:44 PM
The new quarterback rating? Really? I read that and what it entailed. It's a floppy mathematical formula that tries really, really hard to quantify things that aren't quantifiable.


Take a look at Orton and then take a look at the league. Not just the Patriots, Colts, Chargers and Saints, the entire league, look at that. You'll quickly realize that Orton isn't bad, and no one can actually make a credible argument that he's bad or below average.

He's a polarizing figure for no reason. :tsk:

He's polarizing because he was 3-10 last season. Show me a QB who peads his team to 3-10 and is not polarizing.

I pointed this out in another thread but I'll do it again. Let's pretend Orton doesn't do anything to either help or hurt his stock this season, what teams do you suppose will take him as their starter?

Oak
Mia
Buff
SF
Den
Sea

Are there anymore really? And a good portion of those teams will dradt a QB in this QB heavy draft that will be coming up. Other teams such as Tenn, Cincy, Minn etc. all have young guys to develope. Kyle Orton is decidedly average to this pount in his career and I believe the vast majority of the NFL agrees with me.

I have watched Every Game Kyle Orton has played as a Denver Bronco and to me he is honestly one of the most uninspiring amd average QBs we have had. When we have the ball late in a game I have nevwr felt vonfidence in Kyle Orton in that spot. Can he change my mind? Yes, if he does it on the field in games that matter. Until then, I have seen too much mediocrity and quitting for my taste.

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:45 PM
If you're trying to claim he's 11-15, then that would still be in the middle third...which is average. But yeah, in Denver, a lot of Orton's stats have been fluff.

There are 32 starting quarterbacks. 16 on the dot is average. If you're in the top 15 you are above average.




Ill put it to you this way: that is one messy sentence. Moving on.

No, actually it's not a messy sentence. It makes perfect sense and is grammatically correct.




This kind of subjective ranking is kind of silly. Splitting hairs over whether Orton is better than Kolb (or someone else) doesn't mean he's not average. Like I said, you could make a case for him to be between 11-20, which is in the middle third--Average.

And I can make a case that Peyton Manning isn't a first ballot hall of famer. So ******* what? You can make a case for anything or damn near it. It's about a CREDIBLE case with points that make sense.




Except you kept saying top 15. Part of that is also average.

Math is not this hard. Read the first part of my response. Think about it really, really hard. Come on, I believe in you!

Northman
08-20-2011, 11:47 PM
Orton = the new Plummer

:welcome:


Is this like the lyrics from "We Wont Get Fooled Again"?

"The new boss is exactly like the old boss...." :lol:

Poet
08-20-2011, 11:48 PM
And as far as the "well he's not a winner," his defense lost a ton of games. They were almost as bad as the Slowik Broncos.

Is he an elite top five quarterback who wins games on his own arm?


No, god he is far from that.

Is he this bumbling retarded ape who shits himself and brushes his teeth with the toilet paper he didn't use?

No.

Statistically the guy is across the board, as a whole above average. He had a losing record on a really bad team.

BroncoWave
08-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Kyle Orton - The most hated (by the fans on his own team)above average quarterback in the last twenty years.

Jake Plummer

Agent of Orange
08-20-2011, 11:52 PM
There are 32 starting quarterbacks. 16 on the dot is average. If you're in the top 15 you are above average.

There's too much hair splitting in trying to pin down who is 16 exactly. Its a lot easier and probably a lot more accurate to aske whether he's in the middle third.






No, actually it's not a messy sentence. It makes perfect sense and is grammatically correct.

Cool.





And I can make a case that Peyton Manning isn't a first ballot hall of famer. So ******* what? You can make a case for anything or damn near it. It's about a CREDIBLE case with points that make sense.

This is what I was talking about.






Math is not this hard. Read the first part of my response. Think about it really, really hard. Come on, I believe in you!

I just think it's more than a little ironic that you dismiss ESPNs QB rating as too subjective, yet, in the same breath, you try to precisely rank each QB individually. Apparently it's not subjective when you try to split hairs while trying to pin down exactly where they rank.

Good luck explaining that. Now you can go back to sucking your thumb.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:53 PM
Jake Plummer

Jake Plummer was above average and hated, Orton is below average and hated, there is a fine line there.

:lol:

Northman
08-20-2011, 11:53 PM
Jake Plummer

Actually, i think Orton is getting it worse. At least with Plummer we won some games to sort of alleviate the hatred.

chazoe60
08-20-2011, 11:56 PM
Guys better than Orton

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Phillip Rivers
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Michael Vick
7. Tony Romo
8. Matt Schaub
9. Matt Ryan
10. Ben Roethlisberger
11. Josh Freeman
12. Eli Manning
13. Joe Flacco
14. Jay Cutler
15. Matt Cassel

Now that right there puts Orton at 16 and right at average.

Now throw in guys who I believe will pass him this season
16. Mathew Stafford
17. Sam Bradford
18. Mark Sanchez
19. Kevin Kolb
20. Colt McCoy

And if you asked "which QB would you rather have late in a close game" and that list gets even bigger.

Lancane
08-20-2011, 11:58 PM
Actually, i think Orton is getting it worse. At least with Plummer we won some games to sort of alleviate the hatred.

Yeah, when we started to lose the year following the AFCCG it got real freakin' ugly, the boards were having to suspend people by bulk on both sides of the fence...it was as Red says 'Nasty'!

:lol:

BroncoWave
08-21-2011, 12:00 AM
Jake Plummer was above average and hated, Orton is below average and hated, there is a fine line there.

:lol:

Which makes Plummer's hate more unwarranted IMO. I would kill to be back to winning 72% of our games like with him.

Northman
08-21-2011, 12:02 AM
Yeah, when we started to lose the year following the AFCCG it got real freakin' ugly, the boards were having to suspend people by bulk on both sides of the fence...it was as Red says 'Nasty'!

:lol:


Indeed. But when you follow up a 4 turnover game in the AFCCG by opening up the season with 4 more turnovers it was bound to get ugly.

Northman
08-21-2011, 12:03 AM
Which makes Plummer's hate more unwarranted IMO. I would kill to be back to winning 72% of our games like with him.

Unfortuantely, that would require having Shanahan back and dealing with rotating DC's every year. While it will be nice to get back to more winning it was evident some things needed changing on all fronts.

Poet
08-21-2011, 12:03 AM
Exactly, if Orton is above average then why wasnt the 5 or so QB hungry teams this offseason pounding on our door?


No one bit on Ortonary. :coffee:


Funny that the Bears had Orton yet gave two 1st for a real QB. Who did bring their horrible team to the NFCCG.


Until we beat the teams when it counts I'm not going to crown him.

Well the Dolphins were interested, but I guess they don't count? The Cardinals were hellbent on getting Kolb and the Vikings wanted to give up as little as possible for a one year rental.

No, you're right, Orton clearly sucks.

Cutler is a better player than Orton. Cutler is a better player than a lot of quarterbacks, guess they all suck huh? Although the irony is that the Bears are one of the worst run organizations in football. Don't believe me, look at their draft record. You don't really want to be using the Bears and their decisions as a frame of reference.

Cutler's team was so bad that...wait a second...hold on...did you see their defense play last year? Do you know who Urlacher, Briggs, Peppers, Forte and Greg Olsen are?

Yeah, that team is terrible. Not average, which would be a fair claim. Not subpar as a whole, which again would be a fair claim.

TERRIBLE!

THEY ARE SO TERRIBLE!

See, this is my ultimate point - If I were to say have a vendetta against Cutler like you do Orton I would use stupid shitty sayings like "Ortonary" or "cut below the average" in my posts. Then I would take everything that ever happened and spin it in one extreme.

For instance I could make the stupid claim that Cutler is a quitter. I mean he could walk around the sidelines in the NFCCG. He wasn't even pulled on any of the plays he got smacked on due to injury.

Clearly he's a *****! Clearly Orton is better than that ***** because Orton doesn't quit!

That's you, that's the shitty logic that you use and that's what you sound like. That's what all the retarded "ORTON BLOWS" people sound like.

You're so invested in Cutler/McDaniels/Tebow/moving on/Quinn/any strong desire or want at the Broncos QB position that you can't even use any real logic at all other than "I HATE ORTON /shit all over myself."

Lancane
08-21-2011, 12:03 AM
Which makes Plummer's hate more unwarranted IMO. I would kill to be back to winning 72% of our games like with him.

Agreed, like I said before the only thing I hated, I mean really hated about Plummer was his shit attitude, I admit I disliked the amount of mistakes he made, but I blame the inept Arizona coaching staff for that. If Denver would have drafted him he'd still be the starting quarterback in Denver and we would have never drafted Cutler or had to deal with Orton...now I hate Plummer more...Damn It! (Kidding)

Poet
08-21-2011, 12:07 AM
There's too much hair splitting in trying to pin down who is 16 exactly. Its a lot easier and probably a lot more accurate to aske whether he's in the middle third.



Why, because it would automatically support your argument?




I just think it's more than a little ironic that you dismiss ESPNs QB rating as too subjective, yet, in the same breath, you try to precisely rank each QB individually. Apparently it's not subjective when you try to split hairs while trying to pin down exactly where they rank.



I'm saying the quarterback rating as a whole is retarded. Taking the amalgamation of a bunch of numbers and then adding in things that aren't really quantifiable is even more retarded.

chazoe60
08-21-2011, 12:08 AM
Did you see my list King?

Poet
08-21-2011, 12:10 AM
Did you see my list King?

I did not. I'm scrolling through a bunch of crap as I kill time online. I will find it and comment on it. Then we will continue to disagree.

Lancane
08-21-2011, 12:10 AM
That's you, that's the shitty logic that you use and that's what you sound like. That's what all the retarded "ORTON BLOWS" people sound like.

You're so invested in Cutler/McDaniels/Tebow/moving on/Quinn/any strong desire or want at the Broncos QB position that you can't even use any real logic at all other than "I HATE ORTON /shit all over myself."

It's handicapped not retarded son-of-a :lol:

King, he's above average in your book (opinionative) while he's below average in our book (likewise opinionative), so it's all conjecture because even the stats prove he is below average, the whole league knows his stats the past two years were fluffed, so why argue? Neither side is going to change the other, that's like asking an inbred redneck to share his cousin!

I know Dalton's numbers aren't all that hot, but he has tremendous upside and some feel he'll be better then Palmer was, now would you trade him for Orton if you could or would you rather risk it and hope that you found a franchise quarterback who may possibly be elite one day?

;)

chazoe60
08-21-2011, 12:11 AM
I did not. I'm scrolling through a bunch of crap as I kill time online. I will find it and comment on it. Then we will continue to disagree.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
At least you can admit when you're wrong.

Poet
08-21-2011, 12:16 AM
Guys better than Orton

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Phillip Rivers
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Michael Vick
7. Tony Romo
8. Matt Schaub
9. Matt Ryan
10. Ben Roethlisberger
11. Josh Freeman
12. Eli Manning
13. Joe Flacco
14. Jay Cutler
15. Matt Cassel

Now that right there puts Orton at 16 and right at average.

Now throw in guys who I believe will pass him this season
16. Mathew Stafford
17. Sam Bradford
18. Mark Sanchez
19. Kevin Kolb
20. Colt McCoy

And if you asked "which QB would you rather have late in a close game" and that list gets even bigger.
So a one year wonder is now better than Orton? Really?

FWIW, the same complaints on Orton can be made ten times more on Schaub. The killer is that his team is better than Orton's and he plays in a tougher division.

I like Stafford a lot, I don't believe his line can keep him standing upright.

Sanchez could pass him, or he could continue to be inconsistent
as all get out.

I expect Kolb to have a very fine year. I think he ends up being better than Orton. I do on Bradford.

I also expect some your guys to come down a peg. Eli Manning is schizo. Vick is an unknown quantity and isn't exactly durable either. Freeman is a one year wonder, Schaub draws the same fire as Orton may just have a good season...wait no that's impossible.

Poet
08-21-2011, 12:19 AM
It's handicapped not retarded son-of-a :lol:

King, he's above average in your book (opinionative) while he's below average in our book (likewise opinionative), so it's all conjecture because even the stats prove he is below average, the whole league knows his stats the past two years were fluffed, so why argue? Neither side is going to change the other, that's like asking an inbred redneck to share his cousin!

I know Dalton's numbers aren't all that hot, but he has tremendous upside and some feel he'll be better then Palmer was, now would you trade him for Orton if you could or would you rather risk it and hope that you found a franchise quarterback who may possibly be elite one day?

;)
YOU TAKE YOUR P.C. AWAY FROM MY ANGRY POSTS!!!!!!

He's not below average statistically...god I hate you! :D

Dalton does not have tremendous upside. He has upside and was a safe pick which is something my awful organization could use at that position.

I would trade him for Orton is my team was close to making the playoffs. I know what you're saying, but we have more holes than fat guy after a machine gun fight.

Northman
08-21-2011, 12:24 AM
So a one year wonder is now better than Orton? Really?

FWIW, the same complaints on Orton can be made ten times more on Schaub. The killer is that his team is better than Orton's and he plays in a tougher division.

I like Stafford a lot, I don't believe his line can keep him standing upright.

Sanchez could pass him, or he could continue to be inconsistent
as all get out.

I expect Kolb to have a very fine year. I think he ends up being better than Orton. I do on Bradford.

I also expect some your guys to come down a peg. Eli Manning is schizo. Vick is an unknown quantity and isn't exactly durable either. Freeman is a one year wonder, Schaub draws the same fire as Orton may just have a good season...wait no that's impossible.

Actually, Schaub is way better than Orton. But Schaub's problem is the same for any gunslinger and he can get careless with the football (See Peyton last year with 11 Int's in 3 games). The difference is Schaub can make great plays and kill you with plays. Orton doesnt make plays, he plays it safe.

Lancane
08-21-2011, 12:30 AM
YOU TAKE YOUR P.C. AWAY FROM MY ANGRY POSTS!!!!!!

He's not below average statistically...god I hate you! :D

Dalton does not have tremendous upside. He has upside and was a safe pick which is something my awful organization could use at that position.

I would trade him for Orton is my team was close to making the playoffs. I know what you're saying, but we have more holes than fat guy after a machine gun fight.

That's one 'Holy' fat guy! :lol:

Fact is that we're much like the Bengals, we're trying to build something and after this season Orton will be gone, he such a polarizing figure in Denver Sports that if the front office offered him an extension that the fans would quite literally go to 'Sports Authority Field' and take a shit on it because that's what we got out of the deal. Like most teams we don't want average, below or barely above we want a franchise quarterback whether elite or just really good, we've had to go through this shit since Elway retired and we lost the one quarterback (like the Bengals - though by different means) whom had the ability to be elite. Orton was never going to get a fair shake because of who he was traded here to replace, I've said that time and again. It would be like the Bengals trading Palmer for (edited) Derek Anderson!

Yes, the team looks better and yes, we could be more then average...though it's not likely and even if we are no one will credit Orton because no one (beside a small select group) wants him here. Want to see Denver fans excited, if Fox announced that Quinn was the starter the board would literally crash from the excitement...that's how bad it is.

;)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-21-2011, 12:31 AM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

Orton's a complete soldier. He's mastered the "duck and cover" move. :laugh:

chazoe60
08-21-2011, 12:31 AM
The funny thing is that a Bengals fan is defending Orton to a bunch of Bronco fans. Bears fans wanted Orton gone and now Bronco fans want him gone. I bet if he played for the Bengals their fans would want him gone.

Watching Orton as a fan of a team he doesn't start for is probably pretty easy, watching him when he plays for your team can be sickening at times.

horsepig
08-21-2011, 12:52 AM
Well the Dolphins were interested, but I guess they don't count? The Cardinals were hellbent on getting Kolb and the Vikings wanted to give up as little as possible for a one year rental.

No, you're right, Orton clearly sucks.

Cutler is a better player than Orton. Cutler is a better player than a lot of quarterbacks, guess they all suck huh? Although the irony is that the Bears are one of the worst run organizations in football. Don't believe me, look at their draft record. You don't really want to be using the Bears and their decisions as a frame of reference.

Cutler's team was so bad that...wait a second...hold on...did you see their defense play last year? Do you know who Urlacher, Briggs, Peppers, Forte and Greg Olsen are?

Yeah, that team is terrible. Not average, which would be a fair claim. Not subpar as a whole, which again would be a fair claim.

TERRIBLE!

THEY ARE SO TERRIBLE!

See, this is my ultimate point - If I were to say have a vendetta against Cutler like you do Orton I would use stupid shitty sayings like "Ortonary" or "cut below the average" in my posts. Then I would take everything that ever happened and spin it in one extreme.

For instance I could make the stupid claim that Cutler is a quitter. I mean he could walk around the sidelines in the NFCCG. He wasn't even pulled on any of the plays he got smacked on due to injury.

Clearly he's a *****! Clearly Orton is better than that ***** because Orton doesn't quit!

That's you, that's the shitty logic that you use and that's what you sound like. That's what all the retarded "ORTON BLOWS" people sound like.

You're so invested in Cutler/McDaniels/Tebow/moving on/Quinn/any strong desire or want at the Broncos QB position that you can't even use any real logic at all other than "I HATE ORTON /shit all over myself."

I don't really think it was personal, King.

shank
08-21-2011, 08:37 AM
Orton = the new Plummer

:welcome:

plummer won games.

Agent of Orange
08-21-2011, 01:26 PM
Why, because it would automatically support your argument?

Dumb reply. What exactly is my argument? Are you really taking issue with my statement that a case can be made for Orton being anywhere from 11-20?




I'm saying the quarterback rating as a whole is retarded. Taking the amalgamation of a bunch of numbers and then adding in things that aren't really quantifiable is even more retarded.

But you're not doing this when you try to pinpoint Orton's precise ranking on your own? If you're not taking situations into account, then you should be.

socalthunder
08-21-2011, 04:29 PM
Saw the replay of the game today. Orton was, well... Orton. Pretty solid, no mistakes, no mobility... same ol' Kyle. Unfortunately, pretty solid and not making bad decisions doesn't win games. I was impressed with BQ. He's been putting in work - that's for sure...

It was nice to see running plays for positive yardage for a change...

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Saw the replay of the game today. Orton was, well... Orton. Pretty solid, no mistakes, no mobility... same ol' Kyle. Unfortunately, pretty solid and not making bad decisions doesn't win games. I was impressed with BQ. He's been putting in work - that's for sure...

It was nice to see running plays for positive yardage for a change...

Did you miss the play where he scrambled right and found Lloyd for the first down? He doesn't move like Plummer, or Elway, but he's not set in stone...

And though you didn't mention it, I'd rather have my quarterback roll into a ball on second down and complete a pass on third for a first down, instead of heaving it up for grabs when pressured heavily (Tebow). I know it pisses Broncos fans off because he's not Elway, but taking sacks is better than INTs and fumbles caused by trying to do too much.

socalthunder
08-21-2011, 04:43 PM
Did you miss the play where he scrambled right and found Lloyd for the first down? He doesn't move like Plummer, or Elway, but he's not set in stone...

And though you didn't mention it, I'd rather have my quarterback roll into a ball on second down and complete a pass on third for a first down, instead of heaving it up for grabs when pressured heavily (Tebow). I know it pisses Broncos fans off because he's not Elway, but taking sacks is better than INTs and fumbles caused by trying to do too much.

Actually, I agree - that play where he got sacked err, fell down was probably the right thing to do there.

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 06:11 PM
Did you miss the play where he scrambled right and found Lloyd for the first down? He doesn't move like Plummer, or Elway, but he's not set in stone...

And though you didn't mention it, I'd rather have my quarterback roll into a ball on second down and complete a pass on third for a first down, instead of heaving it up for grabs when pressured heavily (Tebow). I know it pisses Broncos fans off because he's not Elway, but taking sacks is better than INTs and fumbles caused by trying to do too much.

Yeah, that's all fine and dandy but Orton has converted less than 35% of his 3rd downs here in Denver... I'd rather have a QB with enough talent to convert 3rd downs without having to blame everyone and everything else on why he can't.

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 06:18 PM
Yeah, that's all fine and dandy but Orton has converted less than 35% of his 3rd downs here in Denver... I'd rather have a QB with enough talent to convert 3rd downs without having to blame everyone and everything else on why he can't.

As opposed to the quarterback you want that can't even complete half of his passes...

BORDERLINE
08-21-2011, 07:07 PM
Orton played well and showed what we have seen from him. Solid passes that are on point. With that said I still know what He has shown HE can't do. I don't care who starts and like painter I have come to accept that he will start and lead our Broncos. If he starts playing bad (most likely, like himself) i hope the fans let him hear it. But if he plays well then we HAVE to give credit where credit is due

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 08:10 PM
As opposed to the quarterback you want that can't even complete half of his passes...

Who? Andrew Luck? He completed 70% of his passes last season.

On this roster I would take Quinn or Tebow over Orton, because they haven't shown me they are gutless-fetal-position-ankle-grabbing-choke artists.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2011, 08:17 PM
The QB is not the only position when it comes to converting 3rd downs - they also should come from the running game, which it appears the Broncos will definitely be better at this year.

Lancane
08-21-2011, 08:39 PM
The QB is not the only position when it comes to converting 3rd downs - they also should come from the running game, which it appears the Broncos will definitely be better at this year.

No Carol, you're correct...but you also come from a different school, you're optimistic and support all the starters for your favorite team and those behind them who seem worthy. You may have things to say on certain matters regarding players but for the most part, you're a very stoic and respective poster and fan. And I respect that, and I am sort of envious...because I've tried to be that way.

Last year, even though I am not a supporter of Orton I continually defended him for most of the season against those slamming him for not doing more. Not because I felt he was better or because he was the starter, but because he was doing what was asked of him, to simply manage the ball and do his best not to lose, some just don't realize that he can not carry this team nor will he be able to, he is not that kind of quarterback, but he fluffs his way well enough that some seem to somehow buy that he is capable. But as I've said, I saw him quit in my honest opinion, not because he was hurt, but because I believe he realized that no one was buying his 'fluffed up image' any longer. McDaniels wanted to trade him, Chicago wanted to trade him, the majority of the Broncos' fanbase continues to want to trade him...of course he's bitter, because he's not that good and people quit buying what he is selling.

I see a lot of positives in this team, we've improved already in several facets, but quarterback is one position, the key position where we are currently lacking promise even worse then we are at defensive tackle.

underrated29
08-21-2011, 08:52 PM
As opposed to the quarterback you want that can't even complete half of his passes...




You are not talking about any of our qbs right? Because so far I think all except weber have had only a few incompletion...with Quinn I believe having the most at like 4.

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 09:06 PM
You are not talking about any of our qbs right? Because so far I think all except weber have had only a few incompletion...with Quinn I believe having the most at like 4.

If we're talking about Orton's third down percentage from last season, Tebow's 48 percent completion percentage is fair game.

Agent of Orange
08-21-2011, 10:02 PM
If we're talking about Orton's third down percentage from last season, Tebow's 48 percent completion percentage is fair game.

He was 41/82. That should be easy math.

Juriga72
08-21-2011, 10:15 PM
If we're talking about Orton's third down percentage from last season, Tebow's 48 percent completion percentage is fair game.

Could we then talk about the fact on third downs BOTH of them ran 10 times....

Tebow gained 102 yards and scored 2 touchdowns

Orton gained 53 yards and scored no td's....

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 10:39 PM
He was 41/82. That should be easy math.

My bad, 49 percent.

Such a huge difference.

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 10:45 PM
Could we then talk about the fact on third downs BOTH of them ran 10 times....

Tebow gained 102 yards and scored 2 touchdowns

Orton gained 53 yards and scored no td's....

Orton averaged 5.3 yards per carry? Hell, I though he was unable to move, let alone have a better YPC than our best running back...

Agent of Orange
08-21-2011, 10:49 PM
My bad, 49 percent.

Such a huge difference.

Wrong again. LOL.

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 10:56 PM
Wrong again. LOL.

49.9...

That's SO much better than 48, when good quarterbacks complete at least 10.1 percent more passes.

Semantics is fun.

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:07 PM
The QB is not the only position when it comes to converting 3rd downs - they also should come from the running game, which it appears the Broncos will definitely be better at this year.

Orton has struggled every season he has played on 3rd down, that includes having a solid running game in Chicago and a solid running game here in Denver in 2009.

At some point you have to stop blaming the other players and put some of the fault on the guy who handles every snap and throws every pass. It is EXACTLY the reason Arizona gave for having no interest in trading for him.

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:08 PM
49.9...

That's SO much better than 48, when good quarterbacks complete at least 10.1 percent more passes.

Semantics is fun.

Kyle only completed 58% of his passes last season in a spread offense, that isn't very impressive either. In fact, considering Tebow was a rookie why don't you go back and look at Orton's rookie stats and tell me how accurate he was.

Here's a hint, not very.

Juriga72
08-21-2011, 11:10 PM
Orton averaged 5.3 yards per carry? Hell, I though he was unable to move, let alone have a better YPC than our best running back...

But yet only 2 first downs......

Tebow-6 first downs....2 touchdowns....10.2 ypc

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 11:10 PM
Kyle only completed 58% of his passes last season in a spread offense, that isn't very impressive either. In fact, considering Tebow was a rookie why don't you go back and look at Orton's rookie stats and tell me how accurate he was.

Here's a hint, not very.

Neither are really of concern, and I do like U29's idea of moving on, but that means you scrap both players pasts and focus on the now.

Orton is the better quarterback right now. Period. /endofdiscussion

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:22 PM
Neither are really of concern, and I do like U29's idea of moving on, but that means you scrap both players pasts and focus on the now.

Orton is the better quarterback right now. Period. /endofdiscussion

He is? Better at what? Winning? :laugh: Yeah right...

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 11:27 PM
He is? Better at what? Winning? :laugh: Yeah right...

Well, if we bring in their past as NFL quarterbacks, yes, he is better.

But, since we're throwing out the past and evaluating on what they are doing right now, Orton wins hands down. He makes good reads, leads the offense on game-scoring drives and understands the offense. Tebow is struggling with reads, hasn't scored a touchdown and his mechanics are terrible. Plus, he looks to run rather than tries to become the pocket passer that NFL teams covet.

Poet
08-21-2011, 11:29 PM
Errr...me no makey good argument bout Orton az passuh so me usah da he not on da teems dat winnah da gamez.

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Errr...me no makey good argument bout Orton az passuh so me usah da he not on da teems dat winnah da gamez.

I'll make a very good argument about Orton as a passer, he is AVERAGE. Go check those coveted stats that his game clings to... He is in the middle of the pack in most areas, he is ranked highly in yards, and of course that has nothing to do with the fact that we ran a spread offense and threw it 38 times per game, which he also ranked very highly at.

I'll give you some quick numbers...

31% - Orton's 3rd down conversion percentage
58% - Orton's completion percentage
20 - Orton's TD total
58 - Orton's QBR on 3rd down and in the redzone

Ah, if only being top 10 in passing yards won Super Bowls! We might not have drafted 2 overall last season! :rolleyes:

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:34 PM
Well, if we bring in their past as NFL quarterbacks, yes, he is better.

But, since we're throwing out the past and evaluating on what they are doing right now, Orton wins hands down. He makes good reads, leads the offense on game-scoring drives and understands the offense. Tebow is struggling with reads, hasn't scored a touchdown and his mechanics are terrible. Plus, he looks to run rather than tries to become the pocket passer that NFL teams covet.

I'm not advocating Tebow, I've openly said I hope we draft a guy next year and go with him and jettison both of our problems. I'm also all for giving Quinn a shot, Orton has had his chance and the results are in, he led Denver to their worst season EVER last year. Could Quinn do worse than that? Highly unlikely.

GEM
08-21-2011, 11:36 PM
Errr...me no makey good argument bout Orton az passuh so me usah da he not on da teems dat winnah da gamez.

Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth!!

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 11:41 PM
I'm not advocating Tebow, I've openly said I hope we draft a guy next year and go with him and jettison both of our problems. I'm also all for giving Quinn a shot, Orton has had his chance and the results are in, he led Denver to their worst season EVER last year. Could Quinn do worse than that? Highly unlikely.

Actually, you're pretty much changing your tune on the fly...

Poet
08-21-2011, 11:45 PM
I'll make a very good argument about Orton as a passer, he is AVERAGE. Go check those coveted stats that his game clings to... He is in the middle of the pack in most areas, he is ranked highly in yards, and of course that has nothing to do with the fact that we ran a spread offense and threw it 38 times per game, which he also ranked very highly at.

I'll give you some quick numbers...

31% - Orton's 3rd down conversion percentage
58% - Orton's completion percentage
20 - Orton's TD total
58 - Orton's QBR on 3rd down and in the redzone

Ah, if only being top 10 in passing yards won Super Bowls! We might not have drafted 2 overall last season! :rolleyes:

I am super happy you grabbed the situational stats on a team that couldn't run the ball at all.

Orton is not an Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning type QB who can dominate you with no running game.

That doesn't mean he's just an average quarterback.

Poet
08-21-2011, 11:46 PM
Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth!!

Umm...no?

:confused::shocked:

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:50 PM
I am super happy you grabbed the situational stats on a team that couldn't run the ball at all.

Orton is not an Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning type QB who can dominate you with no running game.

That doesn't mean he's just an average quarterback.

What has he done to prove he is anything more than an average QB? His career stats are average and his career winning percentage is average.

Sounds pretty damn average to me.

BroncoStud
08-21-2011, 11:54 PM
Actually, you're pretty much changing your tune on the fly...

No I'm not. I've openly stated that I hope Denver gets a top QB in the draft next season and ends the debacle that McDaniels left. Orton is gone anyway so who cares, that's why playing him this season makes no sense hence the front office tried to trade him, to no avail.

The only bright spot this Preseason for me at QB has been Quinn. I expect Orton to know the system and make the right reads, I didn't expect Quinn to be this sharp. Tebow isn't as polished as either of the other 2 but he offers something they can't, game-changing athleticism.

I still have not seen enough BAD from Tebow and enough GOOD from Orton to believe that either gives Denver the better chance to win games. I will say this, if Denver is down by 5 with 2 minutes to go, I would take my chance with Tebow over Orton any day of the week, even with his lack of polish and experience.

In my dreams Andrew Luck ends this debate once and for all next season.

MOtorboat
08-21-2011, 11:58 PM
No I'm not. I've openly stated that I hope Denver gets a top QB in the draft next season and ends the debacle that McDaniels left. Orton is gone anyway so who cares, that's why playing him this season makes no sense hence the front office tried to trade him, to no avail.

The only bright spot this Preseason for me at QB has been Quinn. I expect Orton to know the system and make the right reads, I didn't expect Quinn to be this sharp. Tebow isn't as polished as either of the other 2 but he offers something they can't, game-changing athleticism.

I still have not seen enough BAD from Tebow and enough GOOD from Orton to believe that either gives Denver the better chance to win games. I will say this, if Denver is down by 5 with 2 minutes to go, I would take my chance with Tebow over Orton any day of the week, even with his lack of polish and experience.

In my dreams Andrew Luck ends this debate once and for all next season.

You hedge your bets well. Beef is proud.

BroncoStud
08-22-2011, 12:02 AM
You hedge your bets well. Beef is proud.

I think it's just absurd to deal in absolutes with these guys. The only QB we have any real concept of is Orton. The other 2 are somewhat unknown, somewhat known. We know that Quinn can make the throws and has good mechanics, but has he REALLY gotten better this year and developed? We know that Tebow has poor mechanics and struggles with his reads but can his ability to make plays and put points on the board overcome that?

It's easy to forget that Denver scored more points last year under Tebow than it did with Orton, that isn't opinion, that's fact.

jhildebrand
08-22-2011, 12:03 AM
I want to know why orton just fell down on the dareus sack. Has anyone watched that play again yet? He just dropped down on his butt....he was under serious pressure but no one was hitting him...he just fell down and gave up

I called this play out in my assessment of week 2. Orton actually stepped up in the pocket. The problem is he stepped in to the back of one of his linemen (kuper I think) and he basically just fell down.

While everybody is saying Orton was "spectacular" (word I hear most) I see cause for concern. :noidea:

I see the same problems Orton has always had. For a 7+ year guy I would expect some of it to get better but it doesn't.

Lancane
08-22-2011, 12:26 AM
That doesn't mean he's just an average quarterback.

Noooo...means he below average...so says Achmed!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3206777880_72aae61b47.jpg

:lol:

broncoFan!
08-22-2011, 12:45 AM
What has he done to prove he is anything more than an average QB? His career stats are average and his career winning percentage is average.

Sounds pretty damn average to me.

Yup he's ortonary all right. I mean, it's not like John Fox knows QB's or anything. I'd trust Elway though... maybe Elway will realize what an average QB Orton is.

DenBronx
08-22-2011, 01:40 AM
Raider fans want Quinn or Tebow.

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/178160-quinn-tebow-pryor.html

broncoFan!
08-22-2011, 01:42 AM
Raider fans want Quinn or Tebow.

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/178160-quinn-tebow-pryor.html

Raiders fans have as much sense as a bottle of Jack Daniels.

DenBronx
08-22-2011, 01:44 AM
Raiders fans have as much sense as a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Yeah, I read through a few of their threads.


But when you live near them and know them in real life then it's even worse.

Lancane
08-22-2011, 02:38 AM
Raider fans want Quinn or Tebow.

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/178160-quinn-tebow-pryor.html

Someone should tell Elway to do it! Hell throw Horton in the mix as well, Delhomme is still available for the season.

chazoe60
08-22-2011, 06:53 AM
This argument is so temporary. We will be drafting a QB next year and we'll all be happy, until the new guy shows that he's not as good as Elway. Then we'll be at each other's throats again. :laugh:

King, Orton is Incredibly average.

BTW, my predictiin right now, I'm calling it. Orton signs with the Raiders next season.

Lancane
08-22-2011, 07:39 AM
This argument is so temporary. We will be drafting a QB next year and we'll all be happy, until the new guy shows that he's not as good as Elway. Then we'll be at each other's throats again. :laugh:

King, Orton is Incredibly average.

BTW, my predictiin right now, I'm calling it. Orton signs with the Raiders next season.

I would not be surprised if he went to Oakland, it's a good fit for him, he's lifeless and the owner is limited in that area as well! :lol:

chazoe60
08-22-2011, 07:48 AM
I also think Orton would love to stick it to Bronco fans. I would love to see Orton play for Oakland, it woyld be a guaranteed six more sacks per season.

Plus, then all Bronco fans could agree on hating him. :laugh:

vandammage13
08-22-2011, 08:05 AM
Amazing.

Newsflash: Tebow is third string because of Tebow, not because of Orton.

What a crap thread. Dude does well, and we still have to see the idiocy.

While Orton played really well, lets be honest....

Other than the back shoulder throw to Lloyd, all those screens and dumpoffs can probably be completed by 80% of QBs in this league.

He won't be able to successfully dink and dunk over the course of an entire game, let alone the season and expect to win.
(Not against good teams anyway).

We're going nowhere fast with this guy...That much I can guarantee.

chazoe60
08-22-2011, 08:19 AM
Hey Mo, is one good preseason game supposed to erase two years of bad memories?

Npba900
08-22-2011, 08:21 AM
He's polarizing because he was 3-10 last season. Show me a QB who peads his team to 3-10 and is not polarizing.

I pointed this out in another thread but I'll do it again. Let's pretend Orton doesn't do anything to either help or hurt his stock this season, what teams do you suppose will take him as their starter?

Oak
Mia
Buff
SF
Den
Sea

Are there anymore really? And a good portion of those teams will dradt a QB in this QB heavy draft that will be coming up. Other teams such as Tenn, Cincy, Minn etc. all have young guys to develope. Kyle Orton is decidedly average to this pount in his career and I believe the vast majority of the NFL agrees with me.

I have watched Every Game Kyle Orton has played as a Denver Bronco and to me he is honestly one of the most uninspiring amd average QBs we have had. When we have the ball late in a game I have nevwr felt vonfidence in Kyle Orton in that spot. Can he change my mind? Yes, if he does it on the field in games that matter. Until then, I have seen too much mediocrity and quitting for my taste.

Orton has always been a high maintenance QB that requires talant on both sides of the ball to be successful. I thought everyone already knew this!!!!!

Orton red zone success rate will improve immensely once Denver (any team for that matter) establishes a reliable runnining attack that teams will respect.

And of course Denver will need a stout Defense to keep Orton and the Broncos in games. Thats a lot of resources to bring to bear to ensure Orton is successful.

Npba900
08-22-2011, 08:25 AM
While Orton played really well, lets be honest....

Other than the back shoulder throw to Lloyd, all those screens and dumpoffs can probably be completed by 80% of QBs in this league.

He won't be able to successfully dink and dunk over the course of an entire game, let alone the season and expect to win.
(Not against good teams anyway).

We're going nowhere fast with this guy...That much I can guarantee.

I agree. EFX will be going QB in the 2012 draft. Thats the only way for Denver to get out of its tailspin its currently on. 3-5 wins in 2012 should position Denver to get a really great QB.

The Glue Factory
08-22-2011, 11:42 AM
I have watched Every Game Kyle Orton has played as a Denver Bronco and to me he is honestly one of the most uninspiring amd average QBs we have had. When we have the ball late in a game I have nevwr felt vonfidence in Kyle Orton in that spot.

I'll go one further. Anytime the team was down by 14+ Orton mailed it in as a loss. Didn't matter if it was the 2nd quarter or 4th. Once we were down by 14 the game was over. I even boldly stated to anyone within earshot that garbage time began at that point and a few games were still in the first half upon that announcement.

I would think even a QB that is slightly above average would at least try to do something when it's the first half and the team is down by 14.

Nick
08-22-2011, 12:20 PM
I think Orton gets a lot more heat then he should. Orton is a guy when coming in, you knew what you were going to get. If you give him decent protection and good defense. He wont lose a game for you but he will also not win a game for you behind.

To this day, McDaniel's pisses me off and set the broncos backwards more. They need to plug Tebow in to see what he is able to do and if does not excel and improves at least we know... If Tebow doesn't cut it... At that point resign Orton to 3-4 yrs and draft a QB.

I wish we still had Cutler but Orton is not to bad by all means, just not a elite QB that has "it". It can be a lot worse w/out Orton on your team.

I hope they put Tebow in first team to see what he has next week... that way we know if he is going to be a part of this future or not. If not, then he will not come in until statistically we are out of playoffs.

If our O-line keeps playing they have been playing and stay healthy... Orton might be able to make something happen this year (didn't think I would say that) but pretty unlikely because of depth on line but there is pros and cons of what ever direction they go. We have new management and coach, cant wait to see the decisions they make.

rant over..

Agent of Orange
08-22-2011, 12:26 PM
I think Orton gets a lot more heat then he should. Orton is a guy when coming in, you knew what you were going to get. If you give him decent protection and good defense. He wont lose a game for you but he will also not win a game for you behind.

To this day, McDaniel's pisses me off and set the broncos backwards more. They need to plug Tebow in to see what he is able to do and if does not excel and improves at least we know... If Tebow doesn't cut it... At that point resign Orton to 3-4 yrs and draft a QB.

I wish we still had Cutler but Orton is not to bad by all means, just not a elite QB that has "it". It can be a lot worse w/out Orton on your team.

I hope they put Tebow in first team to see what he has next week... that way we know if he is going to be a part of this future or not. If not, then he will not come in until statistically we are out of playoffs.

If our O-line keeps playing they have been playing and stay healthy... Orton might be able to make something happen this year (didn't think I would say that) but pretty unlikely because of depth on line but there is pros and cons of what ever direction they go. We have new management and coach, cant wait to see the decisions they make.

rant over..

Orton needs to get more heat than he does. If you paid attention to some of the things he says, you'd know why.

Nick
08-22-2011, 12:44 PM
Orton needs to get more heat than he does. If you paid attention to some of the things he says, you'd know why.

I don't care about what any qb says at this point as long as they perform for the Broncos...

MOtorboat
08-22-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't care about what any qb says at this point as long as they perform for the Broncos...

Orton hurt his feelings...

Juriga72
08-22-2011, 01:12 PM
I don't care about what any qb says at this point as long as they perform for the Broncos...

Like peeing down his leg in games we were close in?

cause if you like that kind of qb lay...well.

The Glue Factory
08-22-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't care about what any qb says at this point as long as they perform for the Broncos...

Howz' about saying you had a good year when the team finished 3-10 during your play at QB?

Nick
08-22-2011, 01:22 PM
Like peeing down his leg in games we were close in?

cause if you like that kind of qb lay...well.

He will never win a game for you... I want a franchise QB like we had in Cutler. He is a good game manager, but with quinn and Tebow as a back up. It could be a lot worse.

I am a firm believer of throwing Tebow in so we know if he is our guy or not. If he is not and does not pan out, we don't resign orton... Then what. Now we are in a position to draft a QB and have him play behind Quinn. That would be pretty bad, I would much rather us drafting a QB and have him play by Orton.

Agent of Orange
08-22-2011, 02:12 PM
I don't care about what any qb says at this point as long as they perform for the Broncos...

That's really corny. Sorry, but it's naive to think Orton isn't going to turn into a pumpkin at some point.

BroncoStud
08-23-2011, 01:29 AM
Like peeing down his leg in games we were close in?

cause if you like that kind of qb lay...well.

No crap dude, Orton can say whatever he wants to as long as he steps up when the bullets fly and the Broncos need a hero, problem is he is usually checking down, throwing a ball in the dirt, or dropping into the fetal position when it matters most.

Watching Orton play QB is like stabbing your forehead with a butterknife for 3 hours every week.

Now suddenly because he looks pretty good in Preseason (YET AGAIN) and the local media hacks are doing everything they can to bury Tebow and prop up Orton, the fickle herd of sheep are starting to change their song, you know, the same ones on this board (not to name any names) that bashed Orton last year and the entire offseason and were walking around with TeBONERS all spring...

Hate to break it to them but the Earth is still round, D Cups are still great, and Orton is still Orton. It will be funny to call them out around week 7 when they are walking around downtown Denver with pitchforks looking in every bar for Orton.

Canmore
08-23-2011, 01:36 AM
No crap dude, Orton can say whatever he wants to as long as he steps up when the bullets fly and the Broncos need a hero, problem is he is usually checking down, throwing a ball in the dirt, or dropping into the fetal position when it matters most.

Watching Orton play QB is like stabbing your forehead with a butterknife for 3 hours every week.

Now suddenly because he looks pretty good in Preseason (YET AGAIN) and the local media hacks are doing everything they can to bury Tebow and prop up Orton, the fickle herd of sheep are starting to change their song, you know, the same ones on this board (not to name any names) that bashed Orton last year and the entire offseason and were walking around with TeBONERS all spring...

Hate to break it to them but the Earth is still round, D Cups are still great, and Orton is still Orton. It will be funny to call them out around week 7 when they are walking around downtown Denver with pitchforks looking in every bar for Orton.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lancane
08-23-2011, 01:44 AM
No crap dude, Orton can say whatever he wants to as long as he steps up when the bullets fly and the Broncos need a hero, problem is he is usually checking down, throwing a ball in the dirt, or dropping into the fetal position when it matters most.

Watching Orton play QB is like stabbing your forehead with a butterknife for 3 hours every week.

Now suddenly because he looks pretty good in Preseason (YET AGAIN) and the local media hacks are doing everything they can to bury Tebow and prop up Orton, the fickle herd of sheep are starting to change their song, you know, the same ones on this board (not to name any names) that bashed Orton last year and the entire offseason and were walking around with TeBONERS all spring...

Hate to break it to them but the Earth is still round, D Cups are still great, and Orton is still Orton. It will be funny to call them out around week 7 when they are walking around downtown Denver with pitchforks looking in every bar for Orton.

What about those of us that are neither? I really fit no category, I am not a Tebowner (as you so readily pointed out), I a sure in the hell am no Ortonite nor am I a Quinnian (though I was hoping he'd get a fair shot)...where do I fit in? Admittedly I would rather see what Tebow or Quinn bring over another year of dulled out pompous quarterback play in which a certain quarterbacks' numbers are inflated and his praise is undeserved because 'he's a quitter, an ass and has no F'n heart'.

Agent of Orange
08-23-2011, 09:46 AM
I don't care about what any qb says at this point as long as they perform for the Broncos...

Well, you should. The QBs are supposed to be leaders. Orton is the furthest thing from that. He'll throw around talk about "his" teammates. Its all garbage. Not only that but Orton is the walking emobidment of chicken shit. The guy is totally spineless. His fluff stats become totally forgotten in situations where it matters most when he wants to climb back into his mothers vagina.

Agent of Orange
08-23-2011, 09:49 AM
No crap dude, Orton can say whatever he wants to as long as he steps up when the bullets fly and the Broncos need a hero, problem is he is usually checking down, throwing a ball in the dirt, or dropping into the fetal position when it matters most.

Watching Orton play QB is like stabbing your forehead with a butterknife for 3 hours every week.

Now suddenly because he looks pretty good in Preseason (YET AGAIN) and the local media hacks are doing everything they can to bury Tebow and prop up Orton, the fickle herd of sheep are starting to change their song, you know, the same ones on this board (not to name any names) that bashed Orton last year and the entire offseason and were walking around with TeBONERS all spring...

Hate to break it to them but the Earth is still round, D Cups are still great, and Orton is still Orton. It will be funny to call them out around week 7 when they are walking around downtown Denver with pitchforks looking in every bar for Orton.

Yeah, until Tebow looks awful in a game, people need to **** and stop with this piling on. Because until Tebow looks awful in a game, it's a bunch of crap. People are essentially saying that it's more about practice. Do people not realize that you're not even allowed to tackle the QB in practice? It's not even the same game.

So people really need to just ****.

PAINTERDAVE
08-23-2011, 10:07 AM
I'll go one further. Anytime the team was down by 14+ Orton mailed it in as a loss. Didn't matter if it was the 2nd quarter or 4th. Once we were down by 14 the game was over. I even boldly stated to anyone within earshot that garbage time began at that point and a few games were still in the first half upon that announcement.

I would think even a QB that is slightly above average would at least try to do something when it's the first half and the team is down by 14.

There is one undeveloped QB on the roster who set a Bronco record for a comeback.

He aint ready to start a season where the rebuilding team is full of hope...
and where the fans all have warm fuzzy lollipop dreams of the playoffs...
but down the road he may figure in.

PAINTERDAVE
08-23-2011, 10:10 AM
Well, you should. The QBs are supposed to be leaders. Orton is the furthest thing from that. He'll throw around talk about "his" teammates. Its all garbage. Not only that but Orton is the walking emobidment of chicken shit. The guy is totally spineless. His fluff stats become totally forgotten in situations where it matters most when he wants to climb back into his mothers vagina.

Maybe not totaly spineless...
but his leadership in words in the locker room...
is often not shown in actions on the field.

It is a new year.. maybe he had
"Leadership Counseling" in the off season.

Agent of Orange
08-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Maybe not totaly spineless...
but his leadership in words in the locker room...
is often not shown in actions on the field.

It is a new year.. maybe he had
"Leadership Counseling" in the off season.

Theres no reason to think Orton is anything but what I stated until he proves otherwise. So, effects to the contrary aren't even worth discussing.

And yes, he is totally spineless.

Orton is like the LeRoy Hoard of QBs. LeRoy Hoard is the running back who once said, "If you need 1 yard...................................... I'll get you 3. If you need 5 yards.....................................I'll get you 3." Unfortunately, QBs need to be able to get the equivalent of 5 yards.

Ravage!!!
08-23-2011, 10:26 AM
Yeah, until Tebow looks awful in a game, people need to **** and stop with this piling on. Because until Tebow looks awful in a game, it's a bunch of crap. People are essentially saying that it's more about practice. Do people not realize that you're not even allowed to tackle the QB in practice? It's not even the same game.

So people really need to just ****.

Yes, but if Tebow can't perform when HE'S not being pressured or tackled, then how do you expect the coaches to believe he'll perform better when things are live? You would think that if practice is so much easier, Tebow wouldn't keep looking like crap. Even in practices, Tebow can't hit receivers on routes outside the numbers.

Its not ALL about practice, but EVERY player earns their starting spot by how they perform in practice. Thats just the way it is. Tebow hasn't proved SQUAT, and then comes out and looks like junk in practice. What would you expect the coaches to do, ignore the obvious?

I've always said that I would prefer Tebow over Orton. I alsp pointed out that watching Tebow last year caused me to have MORE concerns about his play than it making me feel better. His play allowed me to see a MUCH BIGGER project than I had expected.... so I definitely can see where the coaches are reluctant to put him on the field. Hell, even the coach that DRAFTED him wasn't going to put him on the field, even when we were eliminated from the playoffs. Now we can see why.

Its time some of you start to step back and see the picture that is layed out in front of you. The coaches, TWO different coaches now, are not willing to put Tebow as the starter. Do you think its some kind of silly conspiracy, or do you suppose that both are seeing MUCH more than you guys are?

vandammage13
08-23-2011, 10:36 AM
Yes, but if Tebow can't perform when HE'S not being pressured or tackled, then how do you expect the coaches to believe he'll perform better when things are live? You would think that if practice is so much easier, Tebow wouldn't keep looking like crap. Even in practices, Tebow can't hit receivers on routes outside the numbers.

Its not ALL about practice, but EVERY player earns their starting spot by how they perform in practice. Thats just the way it is. Tebow hasn't proved SQUAT, and then comes out and looks like junk in practice. What would you expect the coaches to do, ignore the obvious?

I've always said that I would prefer Tebow over Orton. I alsp pointed out that watching Tebow last year caused me to have MORE concerns about his play than it making me feel better. His play allowed me to see a MUCH BIGGER project than I had expected.... so I definitely can see where the coaches are reluctant to put him on the field. Hell, even the coach that DRAFTED him wasn't going to put him on the field, even when we were eliminated from the playoffs. Now we can see why.

Its time some of you start to step back and see the picture that is layed out in front of you. The coaches, TWO different coaches now, are not willing to put Tebow as the starter. Do you think its some kind of silly conspiracy, or do you suppose that both are seeing MUCH more than you guys are?

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but at least for me, what makes me think that he can get it done is the promise that he showed during those last three games last year.

I saw a guy, who for all of his well documented deficiencies, still managed to find a way to put up 300 yards in just his second start.

I saw a guy lead us back from a deficit even John Elway was never able to do.

I have seen a guy go out there and never once look as bad on the field as the pundits say.

I saw a fire in the team that was dead in the water and had nothing to play for....yet they were inspired and playing hard.

That is why I have a hard time believing what they say about him...Because I have seen with my own eyes what the guy is capable of in REAL games.

I will always believe what I see with my own eyes over what people say. Until he shows me on the field in an actual game that he sucks, I'll reserve my judgement.

When you see him suck in an actual game let me know....cuz I'm still wating to see it.

Agent of Orange
08-23-2011, 10:47 AM
Yes, but if Tebow can't perform when HE'S not being pressured or tackled, then how do you expect the coaches to believe he'll perform better when things are live? You would think that if practice is so much easier, Tebow wouldn't keep looking like crap. Even in practices, Tebow can't hit receivers on routes outside the numbers.

Its not ALL about practice, but EVERY player earns their starting spot by how they perform in practice. Thats just the way it is. Tebow hasn't proved SQUAT, and then comes out and looks like junk in practice. What would you expect the coaches to do, ignore the obvious?

I've always said that I would prefer Tebow over Orton. I alsp pointed out that watching Tebow last year caused me to have MORE concerns about his play than it making me feel better. His play allowed me to see a MUCH BIGGER project than I had expected.... so I definitely can see where the coaches are reluctant to put him on the field. Hell, even the coach that DRAFTED him wasn't going to put him on the field, even when we were eliminated from the playoffs. Now we can see why.

Its time some of you start to step back and see the picture that is layed out in front of you. The coaches, TWO different coaches now, are not willing to put Tebow as the starter. Do you think its some kind of silly conspiracy, or do you suppose that both are seeing MUCH more than you guys are?


Garbage response. Like I said, until he looks bad in a game, this whole post is pointless.

Ravage!!!
08-23-2011, 10:59 AM
I guess I can't speak for everyone, but at least for me, what makes me think that he can get it done is the promise that he showed during those last three games last year.
Those three games posed MORE concern for me after watching them. They certainly caused more concern for guys like Jaws who breaks down game film. It OBVIOUSLY caused concern for Elway and Fox.. since neither have been very confident about Tebow as their QB. So that "promise" that you talk of, wasn't promise from a coach's standpoint.


When you see him suck in an actual game let me know....cuz I'm still wating to see it.

Coaches know what they are looking at when you don't.

Ravage!!!
08-23-2011, 11:00 AM
Garbage response. Like I said, until he looks bad in a game, this whole post is pointless.

Yeah. :lol: I'm Wayyyyyy off base!! :lol:

vandammage13
08-23-2011, 11:23 AM
Those three games posed MORE concern for me after watching them. They certainly caused more concern for guys like Jaws who breaks down game film. It OBVIOUSLY caused concern for Elway and Fox.. since neither have been very confident about Tebow as their QB. So that "promise" that you talk of, wasn't promise from a coach's standpoint.



Coaches know what they are looking at when you don't.

I guess if he has all these concerns and can still put up 300 yards then he's going to be amazing once he fixes his flaws...

BroncoStud
08-23-2011, 12:21 PM
There is one undeveloped QB on the roster who set a Bronco record for a comeback.

He aint ready to start a season where the rebuilding team is full of hope...
and where the fans all have warm fuzzy lollipop dreams of the playoffs...
but down the road he may figure in.

Wait!! You mean Tebow wasn't supposed to be ready to start yet? I thought when we drafted him he was expected to be NFL-ready... :rolleyes:

That's why the fickle herd is so ridiculous. Tebow plays pretty well in 3 starts last season with no reps all year, and suddenly he is supposed to look polished and able to beat out a veteran who has started many seasons and participated in 8 camps.

Nonsense. The media is on a mission to discredit Tim Tebow and garner sympathy and support for Kyle Orton and it appears some fans are falling for it hook, line, and sinker. By midseason the sheep will wake up and realize they've been duped again.

vandammage13
08-23-2011, 12:24 PM
Wait!! You mean Tebow wasn't supposed to be ready to start yet? I thought when we drafted him he was expected to be NFL-ready... :rolleyes:

That's why the fickle herd is so ridiculous. Tebow plays pretty well in 3 starts last season with no reps all year, and suddenly he is supposed to look polished and able to beat out a veteran who has started many seasons and participated in 8 camps.

Nonsense. The media is on a mission to discredit Tim Tebow and garner sympathy and support for Kyle Orton and it appears some fans are falling for it hook, line, and sinker. By midseason the sheep will wake up and realize they've been duped again.

Exactly...Come Week 5 we're gonna be right back where we started and people will be calling for Orton's head and the Tebow chants will commence.

Right or wrong, that's what its gonna be.

BroncoStud
08-23-2011, 12:27 PM
Those three games posed MORE concern for me after watching them. They certainly caused more concern for guys like Jaws who breaks down game film. It OBVIOUSLY caused concern for Elway and Fox.. since neither have been very confident about Tebow as their QB. So that "promise" that you talk of, wasn't promise from a coach's standpoint.



Coaches know what they are looking at when you don't.

RAV, I love how you keep going from A to F on this deal. Isn't it highly possible that Orton and Quinn have a lot more experience than Tebow and they simply look more polished and prepared to play full time?

Tebow has SHOWN that he is capable of making plays at the NFL level, he did that last year, in fact, he's shown more composure in 3 games having no clue what he was really doing than Orton has in 7 seasons. The comeback against the Texans was great but the following week against San Diego Tebow was actually more impressive to me, he wasn't the least bit intimidated by the NFL's #1 defense and our most talented division rival.

I don't know how some simply discredit his contributions last season now that the media is all over Orton and Quinn...

Tebow may or many not develop into an NFL starting QB, but he has already shown he is capable of making plays at QB despite his many flaws, plays in which no other QB on this roster is capable of making.

I don't think Fox and Elway are concerned about much at all, they feel Orton is the most prepared to start for the Broncos and that Quinn appears to be the 2nd most prepared to start for the Broncos, the picture will be very different NEXT offseason when Orton is likely gone, Quinn is possibly gone, and Tebow is here under contract with another season of development under his belt.

vandammage13
08-23-2011, 12:45 PM
The odds of Orton holding on to the starting job the entire season are slimmer than the odds of me hitting the lottery...

We're talking about a guy who has lost his starting job more times than Alex Smith and Jeff Hostettler combined...

The Glue Factory
08-23-2011, 04:28 PM
Yes, but if Tebow can't perform when HE'S not being pressured or tackled, then how do you expect the coaches to believe he'll perform better when things are live? You would think that if practice is so much easier, Tebow wouldn't keep looking like crap. Even in practices, Tebow can't hit receivers on routes outside the numbers.

Its not ALL about practice, but EVERY player earns their starting spot by how they perform in practice. Thats just the way it is. Tebow hasn't proved SQUAT, and then comes out and looks like junk in practice. What would you expect the coaches to do, ignore the obvious?

I've always said that I would prefer Tebow over Orton. I alsp pointed out that watching Tebow last year caused me to have MORE concerns about his play than it making me feel better. His play allowed me to see a MUCH BIGGER project than I had expected.... so I definitely can see where the coaches are reluctant to put him on the field. Hell, even the coach that DRAFTED him wasn't going to put him on the field, even when we were eliminated from the playoffs. Now we can see why.

Its time some of you start to step back and see the picture that is layed out in front of you. The coaches, TWO different coaches now, are not willing to put Tebow as the starter. Do you think its some kind of silly conspiracy, or do you suppose that both are seeing MUCH more than you guys are?

Tebow is not NFL ready. Check
Orton is polished and game ready. Check

I understand that Orton would likely win more games that Tebow, but what's the point when Orton isn't going to lead us to the playoffs, nor will he be in a Broncos uniform next year?

Tebow isn't ready for the starting job, I get it. But he has the potential (as evidenced in his three starts last year) to be a major force to be dealt with at QB. Important word there: POTENTIAL! Since we aren't doing anything this year, let's see if that potential is worth developing.

He's basically a rookie since he got nothing last year until he was starting. He didn't get the benefit of OTAs this off-season due to the lockout. Given he has humongous upside & downside potential, he needs to be evaluated. Why not take this year to find out?

Benefits to starting Orton: more wins than starting Tebow but no playoff appearance.
Risk to starting Orton: loss of draft position for selecting a QB in next years draft (should Tebow not pan out,) continued enigma surrounding Tebow's ability to be QB in the NFL.

Benefits to starting Tebow: Remove the mystery about his ability to play in the NFL (for good or bad), likely have a higher draft position for next years draft.
Risk to starting Tebow: We find out that Tebow will never be an NFL QB, Orton's feelings get hurt, lose more games than starting Orton, lose the lockerroom (message is that coaches give up on the year before it begins.)

I'm sure I missed some items in each risk/benefit analysis but that's what I came up with off the top of my head. The only reason I'd start Orton over Tebow is the potential loss of the lockerroom. I think we saw that at the end of Shanahan's tenure with us. Not a fun prospect for a new HC.

Ravage!!!
08-23-2011, 05:30 PM
I understand that Orton would likely win more games that Tebow, but what's the point when Orton isn't going to lead us to the playoffs, nor will he be in a Broncos uniform next year?
I know what you are saying, but I think the coaching staff that is in place is looking to win now, and not put themselves behind the eight-ball by starting players that are NOT ready to be given the starting role.


Tebow isn't ready for the starting job, I get it. But he has the potential (as evidenced in his three starts last year) to be a major force to be dealt with at QB. Important word there: POTENTIAL! Since we aren't doing anything this year, let's see if that potential is worth developing.
Well, that same evidence proves that Tebow is NOT ready. As much as fans love to hug the lege of those three games as if it proves anything, the coaches and those that break down film will tell you adamently that it proves just how far behind Tebow is. So the evidence works against him.


He's basically a rookie since he got nothing last year until he was starting. He didn't get the benefit of OTAs this off-season due to the lockout. Given he has humongous upside & downside potential, he needs to be evaluated. Why not take this year to find out?
Because even though you and I will be fans of Denver even if we lose every game, the coaches and veteran players don't have the luxury of taking a "season off" simply to hand to Tebow to learn.


Benefits to starting Orton: more wins than starting Tebow but no playoff appearance.
Probable, but its not a given. This is a WEAK ass division. That isn't REALLY a given despite us fans believing it to be.

Risk to starting Orton: loss of draft position for selecting a QB in next years draft (should Tebow not pan out,) continued enigma surrounding Tebow's ability to be QB in the NFL.
I don't think the coaches believe there is as much of an enigma as the fans would like to believe. They see Tebow day in and day out, and have a pretty damned good idea what he is NOT capable of. Remember, not even the guy that drafted him was willing to put him in the starting role...despite us being completely out of playoff contention.


Benefits to starting Tebow: Remove the mystery about his ability to play in the NFL (for good or bad), likely have a higher draft position for next years draft.
I'm confused. So you want to start Tebow so that we lose more games?? :confused:

Risk to starting Tebow: We find out that Tebow will never be an NFL QB
I believe the coaches already know this.

lose the lockerroom (message is that coaches give up on the year before it begins.)
pretty big risk just to start a guy because of the name on his jersey.


I'm sure I missed some items in each risk/benefit analysis but that's what I came up with off the top of my head. The only reason I'd start Orton over Tebow is the potential loss of the lockerroom. I think we saw that at the end of Shanahan's tenure with us. Not a fun prospect for a new HC.

Yeah, and the fact that the new coach is hired to win games. He wsn't hired to come in and put Tebow in, no matter what, and evaluate a QB that has already proved he's not ready. What would Fox have to gain by throwing out a season? Nothing from his perspective. He's going to do what he can to win as many games as possible. Thats what coaches do. Coaches are judged on their record... period. No coach is willing ot toss a season so that Tebow can get some playing time.

The Glue Factory
08-23-2011, 05:46 PM
Don't have time to respond to all the parsed comments (which are excellent responses, btw.)

Didn't mean to say that a desired benefit of starting Tebow would be a higher draft position, but a horrible record does reap the benefit of higher draft position.

I agree that the evidence and the coaches scrutinizing each players daily performance is that Tebow isn't nearly ready enough to start. That's not what I was trying to say, just saying it would be nice to see how well he performs in the game to help determine whether it's worth the time and effort to develop him into an NFL QB.

Time to go home to the wife and kids for dinner. Thanks Rav for responding exactly as I knew you would to help me say what needs to be said about Tebow and the current Broncos QB situation.

It all comes down to the coaches and players not willing to take this year to see what Tebow has or doesn't have when there's an option that provides a better chance to win. If Orton wasn't on the team and the choice was Tebow or Quinn, I'm sure the debate would be much different.

Watchthemiddle
08-23-2011, 05:59 PM
Good discussion Rav and Glue

The only problem I have is these two interactions...


Glue----Risk to starting Tebow: We find out that Tebow will never be an NFL QB

Ravage -----I believe the coaches already know this.

I am not calling you out Rav...but at the start of camp, the COACHES and front office were set to trade Orton...B Lloyd is on camera stating that Orton will be fine wherever he ends up and leanded towards Tebow. He was even giving the impression that he was set to work with Tebow.

So, if the coached didn't think Tebow was ready ...or as you and others in the national media want to put it "will never be an NFL QB"..then why were we a few $$$$ away from trading Orton to Miami??

This is the thing I think people fail to realize. The first day reporting to Dove Valley Orton was not there. The same reporters your hearing from now were reporting that Orton was not even asked to show up day one. It was a forgone conclusion that he was traded.

I am not sure if Fox and Elway want this attention, but they are getting it. First year HC of the Broncos and first year President of Ops.....I bet this is not what they wished for...or maybe they did??:confused:

Ravage!!!
08-23-2011, 06:21 PM
Good discussion Rav and Glue

The only problem I have is these two interactions...



I am not calling you out Rav...but at the start of camp, the COACHES and front office were set to trade Orton...B Lloyd is on camera stating that Orton will be fine wherever he ends up and leanded towards Tebow. He was even giving the impression that he was set to work with Tebow.

So, if the coached didn't think Tebow was ready ...or as you and others in the national media want to put it "will never be an NFL QB"..then why were we a few $$$$ away from trading Orton to Miami??

This is the thing I think people fail to realize. The first day reporting to Dove Valley Orton was not there. The same reporters your hearing from now were reporting that Orton was not even asked to show up day one. It was a forgone conclusion that he was traded.

I am not sure if Fox and Elway want this attention, but they are getting it. First year HC of the Broncos and first year President of Ops.....I bet this is not what they wished for...or maybe they did??:confused:

** Lloyd also came out in Sports Illustrated and made VERy strong statements about how Orton should absolutely be the starter, and can't understand all this Tebow "stuff" (thats what he called it). Stating time and time again that this Tebow "stuff" wouldn't even be a discussion if the name wasn't Tebow. Some on the board told me that the only reason Lloyd was saying good things about Orton and how Orton should be the starter, was because Lloyed is being selfish and looking to having better stats since he's looking for the payday.

Obviously everying I state is purely speculation. However, I think it was a situation of trying to get something for Orton while they COULD, and figuring they could move forward with Quinn/Tebow.

But I believe that once the players came back into camp, it was VERY evident that Tebow is just NOT ready. I think it became more apparent than ever, and the coaches quickly accepted that they HAD to go with Orton.

I know its a strong statement to say "never"... and thats really not fair to Tebow. For me, that comes from the perspective I had when he was coming out of college. I never thought he would make an NFL QB then, and still feel that about him. Is it a foregone conclusion that he will NEVER be an NFL QB? Noooo.. not at all. But I still firmly believe its never going to happen (and by that, I mean a GOOD QB. I won't be shocked at all if a team takes a chance on him somewhere and gives him a starting shot).

Orton isn't elite by any means, but he's not horrendous like many on here would love to scream from the hightower. He's average. He's not a game changer, and is destined to be a place holder/back-up for the rest of his career. But that being said, he's making Tebow look bad. That in itself says a LOT. I think it said a lot when McD refused to put his new toy in the line-up, even though our season was lost. I think he was protecting Tebow (and himself) by not showing the world just how far behind Tim was/is.

Being the offseason as it was, Tebow didn't improve. Despite all the reports of him working out, he did NOT go out and look for third-party coaching and training staffs (like MANY NFL QBs do) to help him with EVERYTHING he needed to work on. Instead, he continued to do the same work-outs he always does... and it did NOT help him. Thats a shame.

Jsteve01
08-23-2011, 06:29 PM
** Lloyd also came out in Sports Illustrated and made VERy strong statements about how Orton should absolutely be the starter, and can't understand all this Tebow "stuff" (thats what he called it). Stating time and time again that this Tebow "stuff" wouldn't even be a discussion if the name wasn't Tebow. Some on the board told me that the only reason Lloyd was saying good things about Orton and how Orton should be the starter, was because Lloyed is being selfish and looking to having better stats since he's looking for the payday.

Obviously everying I state is purely speculation. However, I think it was a situation of trying to get something for Orton while they COULD, and figuring they could move forward with Quinn/Tebow.

But I believe that once the players came back into camp, it was VERY evident that Tebow is just NOT ready. I think it became more apparent than ever, and the coaches quickly accepted that they HAD to go with Orton.

I know its a strong statement to say "never"... and thats really not fair to Tebow. For me, that comes from the perspective I had when he was coming out of college. I never thought he would make an NFL QB then, and still feel that about him. Is it a foregone conclusion that he will NEVER be an NFL QB? Noooo.. not at all. But I still firmly believe its never going to happen (and by that, I mean a GOOD QB. I won't be shocked at all if a team takes a chance on him somewhere and gives him a starting shot).

Orton isn't elite by any means, but he's not horrendous like many on here would love to scream from the hightower. He's average. He's not a game changer, and is destined to be a place holder/back-up for the rest of his career. But that being said, he's making Tebow look bad. That in itself says a LOT. I think it said a lot when McD refused to put his new toy in the line-up, even though our season was lost. I think he was protecting Tebow (and himself) by not showing the world just how far behind Tim was/is.

Being the offseason as it was, Tebow didn't improve. Despite all the reports of him working out, he did NOT go out and look for third-party coaching and training staffs (like MANY NFL QBs do) to help him with EVERYTHING he needed to work on. Instead, he continued to do the same work-outs he always does... and it did NOT help him. Thats a shame.

how do you know he didn't work with a qb coach?

Ravage!!!
08-23-2011, 06:32 PM
how do you know he didn't work with a qb coach?

Who? where? when? You don't think this would have been reported? I think its pretty clear that everything he does is well documented, right down to his toilet trips.

He didn't work with coaches. He didn't go to the professional training facilities like Flacco has done. I'm not criticizing, other than it wasn't done. He didn't get help.

Personally, I believe Tebow wants to do it his way.

girler
08-23-2011, 07:06 PM
If anyone wants my opinion:

Of course the FO always wants a winning season, but honestly, this year is all about picking up the pieces and finding some semblance of an NFL team. None of the players had contact with the head coach before August. NONE of them! How does ANYONE expect this team to win? This isn't a freaking Disney movie.

Fox is here to create a defense. That's what he's good at. Elvis is back. there were some beautiful hits on the Bills. Check. Keep that going.

Ok. Elway is here (in a way) to sort out the QB debacle. When he was young, he was thrown to the wolves so early and in such a stupid way against Steve DeBerg that the fans were at his throat every second of every day. Now, Elway is totally playing it cool with Tebow to throw some of the slatherers off of him. :lol: Let the rabid fans eat Orton for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It doesn't matter because we're not going to have a great offense with any QB this season.

This is a rebuilding year. No one is going to be happy with our W/L's. The whole season is going to suck if the only thing you're looking for is wins.

Look for massive defensive improvement (Please, Lord!!!!) And moderate offense improvement. This team has a TON of work to do to get out from under the ex-coach who shall not be named.



(If my guestimate about the Elway/Tebow thing is wrong and the FO has no idea what to do other than just play Orton at 1st string because there's nothing else, then we're doomed! :D )

hamrob
08-23-2011, 07:20 PM
I know your comment at the least appears looks tongue-in-cheek, but if anyone thinks he's not above average they should stop watching football because they're watching something they don't understand.

/moderate sarcasm.Kyle Orton is an average at best QB. He happens to have a lot of talent surrounding him on offense and a game plan that is built for him.

There are several other average QB's that would look good on this team with this game plan. John Kitna would be an absolute beast here, compared with Orton.

If you (or anyone else) truly believe he is an above average QB...then, please explain to me...why no (zero) teams offered even a 3rd round pick for him??? He's still a young guy!

If you think it was his $8m/salary for this year...all they would have had to do, was sign him to an extension at an above average QB's salary.

NO TAKERS!

END OF STORY!

PAINTERDAVE
08-23-2011, 08:38 PM
Those three games posed MORE concern for me after watching them. They certainly caused more concern for guys like Jaws who breaks down game film. It OBVIOUSLY caused concern for Elway and Fox.. since neither have been very confident about Tebow as their QB. So that "promise" that you talk of, wasn't promise from a coach's standpoint.



Coaches know what they are looking at when you don't.

Yeah.. EFX had such concerrn about the QB position
that they actually TRADED Orton to Miami...

only the deal got botched by Kyle's salry demands.

It was a done deal by the teams...
had Kyle and his agent agreed to terms...
Ortotn would NEVER have been in camp...

Who can say what Quinn and Tebow would look like now...
had they both been in a true QB competition with the first teamers
over the last month.

I suspect they BOTH would be playing much better today..
but we will never know.

it is what it is.

I will just root for the team...
and see what happens.

Lancane
08-23-2011, 10:28 PM
Who? where? when? You don't think this would have been reported? I think its pretty clear that everything he does is well documented, right down to his toilet trips.

He didn't work with coaches. He didn't go to the professional training facilities like Flacco has done. I'm not criticizing, other than it wasn't done. He didn't get help.

Personally, I believe Tebow wants to do it his way.

You make a great point with this post Rav, any sort of extra football activities he had was reported and that was mainly working out in Dawkins' off-season 'lockout' program in Denver. Before then it was reported that he was out doing volunteer work for his church and so on. The only thing we heard was that he practiced taking nothing but snaps from under center, per Tebow himself. I understand the need to go out and help others and commit to volunteering for such, but if I was Tebow I would have been out trying to get Steve Young to help me or finding another coach that could help me develop faster.

The only thing we heard beyond that was when we heard recently that Elway was working with him a little one on one - and what I find ironic is right after that he is suddenly fighting for the backup role with the team. I'm not saying that is a result of that one-on-one time...but it is a little coincidental.

Maybe you're right about him wanting to do it on his own, but I don't think it will help his cause if that is indeed true.

BroncoStud
08-23-2011, 10:29 PM
If anyone wants my opinion:

Of course the FO always wants a winning season, but honestly, this year is all about picking up the pieces and finding some semblance of an NFL team. None of the players had contact with the head coach before August. NONE of them! How does ANYONE expect this team to win? This isn't a freaking Disney movie.

Fox is here to create a defense. That's what he's good at. Elvis is back. there were some beautiful hits on the Bills. Check. Keep that going.

Ok. Elway is here (in a way) to sort out the QB debacle. When he was young, he was thrown to the wolves so early and in such a stupid way against Steve DeBerg that the fans were at his throat every second of every day. Now, Elway is totally playing it cool with Tebow to throw some of the slatherers off of him. :lol: Let the rabid fans eat Orton for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It doesn't matter because we're not going to have a great offense with any QB this season.

This is a rebuilding year. No one is going to be happy with our W/L's. The whole season is going to suck if the only thing you're looking for is wins.

Look for massive defensive improvement (Please, Lord!!!!) And moderate offense improvement. This team has a TON of work to do to get out from under the ex-coach who shall not be named.



(If my guestimate about the Elway/Tebow thing is wrong and the FO has no idea what to do other than just play Orton at 1st string because there's nothing else, then we're doomed! :D )

This is a great post.

The Glue Factory
08-24-2011, 09:22 AM
I never thought he would make an NFL QB then, and still feel that about him. Is it a foregone conclusion that he will NEVER be an NFL QB? Noooo.. not at all. But I still firmly believe its never going to happen (and by that, I mean a GOOD QB. I won't be shocked at all if a team takes a chance on him somewhere and gives him a starting shot).


Excellent post. Agree everything except this bit, but I do agree that Tebow remains a mystery wrapped in enigma. I think he can develop into a good to great QB. But it's going to take some work; work that he hasn't had. The previous HC (who shall continue to be unnamed so that I don't go ape) did him no favors with no 1st team workouts during the year and then no contact with the Broncos during the lockout.

Given those knocks against him, he contributed by not seeking out someone (like Gruden, Young or any of a number of others available) to help him work on the 3, 5 & 7 step drops. Like you said, he self-reported working on those, but that information is dubious about it's benefit to him becoming an NFL QB.

Even with all those strikes, I still think he could be something special in this league from the taste we got last year when he started. He just needs to buckle down like never before and work year round on the skills he needs but doesn't have (or is weak in.)

Ravage!!!
08-24-2011, 09:34 AM
Yeah.. EFX had such concerrn about the QB position
that they actually TRADED Orton to Miami...

only the deal got botched by Kyle's salry demands.

It was a done deal by the teams...
had Kyle and his agent agreed to terms...
Ortotn would NEVER have been in camp...

Who can say what Quinn and Tebow would look like now...
had they both been in a true QB competition with the first teamers
over the last month.

I suspect they BOTH would be playing much better today..
but we will never know.

it is what it is.

I will just root for the team...
and see what happens.

I hear what you are saying, but I think the coaches are thanking someone that the trade didn't go through.

I don't think Tebow or Quinn would have looked better, because they have a chance to do better now, in practice. Dont think for a moment that the QBs don't get a chance purely based on the fact that Orton is getting most of the first team reps. Talent shows through. If you are on the second team, making the right reads and making all the throws.... then when you Do get your reps with the first team in practice (and you do get some), you can show off there. If you continue to show that you know what you are doing, you get MORE reps. Thats how players "beat" out other players in practice. Its not like the first team guys are the only ones working.

It is a "true" QB competition. The problem is, Tebow is just sooo far behind right now, he's almost being lapped. Don't blame the coaches for not wasting time giving a guy that far behind more reps instead of the one that is proving to be the better QB.

The Glue Factory
08-24-2011, 09:56 AM
Hopefully this will open Tebow's eyes to what he needs to do this off-season. Work 50 or 60 hrs a week with a dedicated tutor during the offseason. Someone like Gruden or Steve Young.

Ravage!!!
08-24-2011, 11:15 AM
Hopefully this will open Tebow's eyes to what he needs to do this off-season. Work 50 or 60 hrs a week with a dedicated tutor during the offseason. Someone like Gruden or Steve Young.

I don't know if those guys have the time, nor desire, to work with Tebow. But there are a number of companies that have dedicated training facilities, with high-tech computer equipment, to break down your mechanics and train you on the proper footwork. They train professional athletes in every sport to get bigger, stronger, faster.. to throw better... to run lower. To have better/quicker/faster footwork.

They helped out Flacco IMMENSLY last offseason. He has a hard time being TOO tall, and needed to learn to lower his center to be more mobile and learn to throw better when on the move.

This is a video of Flacco at TEST before the draft, but I know he's still working out there in the offseason to get continued training. http://www.testfootballacademy.com/sports_media_clips.html

Watchthemiddle
08-24-2011, 03:58 PM
WOW ...there is a lot of stuff to read through and most of what I have read is opinions. I will not call out anyone for saying "what I think is.....the coaches...this...."

To narrow it down....and this goes back to the basics..

Orton has been in the league for how long?
Quinn has been in the league for how long"

Did we have OTA's this year?

Did Tebow show some signs of light in his 3 games as a starter last year?

( he was 1-2) Carry out that winning % and it would be better than Orton's last year.

Sooooo....We had no off-season. We had no time in April, May, June, to work on the playbook and with coaches....BRONCO coaches.

I agree Tebow is NOT ready to start right now. It's not his fault....so why do people need to pile on if TEBOW needs work and hasn't had the chance to get work in??

NightTerror218
08-24-2011, 04:45 PM
Hopefully this will open Tebow's eyes to what he needs to do this off-season. Work 50 or 60 hrs a week with a dedicated tutor during the offseason. Someone like Gruden or Steve Young.

He did his own work out and a lot of them. But if you are getting it wrong on the first one and not getting help, do all the hundreds of reps matter? He was working on his drops and footwork but by doing it on his own he did not get the input he needed to do it correctly. I wish he would have worked with some retired QB or a coach or something over the post season. He learned the hard way you cant do it alone.

The Glue Factory
08-25-2011, 12:53 PM
I agree Tebow is NOT ready to start right now. It's not his fault....

But part of it is his fault. As Phidlet mentioned, he worked out on his own. He could have had the wisdom to enlist a professional to increase the effectiveness of his workouts. He did that last year, why not this year?




He did his own work out and a lot of them. But if you are getting it wrong on the first one and not getting help, do all the hundreds of reps matter? He was working on his drops and footwork but by doing it on his own he did not get the input he needed to do it correctly. I wish he would have worked with some retired QB or a coach or something over the post season. He learned the hard way you cant do it alone.

That's what I'm sayin'!!

Nomad
08-25-2011, 01:40 PM
Orton wants fans to know he can crack windshields! Beware of the cannon!:D

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/08/25/errant-pass-at-broncos-practice-cracks-windshield-of-willis-mcgahees-porsche/9084/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs-broncos+(Denver+Post%3A+Sports%3A+Broncos%3A+Blog)

The Glue Factory
08-25-2011, 05:39 PM
I'll start worrying when his receivers are sporting not a single straight finger. I don't think Mark Jackson graduated the Broncos with a single normal hand thanks to that punk called Elway!