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vandammage13
08-18-2011, 09:31 AM
Quite hilarious...check out Merril Hodge and Todd McShay saying Brian Brohm is better than Aaron Rodgers. These guys know what they are talking about when it comes to QBs and I am totally sold on their evaluation of Tim Tebow after seeing this video.

At about :37 into the video is where the amusement starts....Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he0BIKmoq0s&feature=player_embedded#!

BroncoNut
08-18-2011, 09:53 AM
O.K. I guess I don't see where that is funny.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 10:00 AM
then don't take them seriously. There are HUNDREDS of players passed in the NFL. No matter what person you choose to listen to, you listen to them because they have an opinion you VALUE...or an opinion that purely matches yours. However, no matter whom that person is, I PROMISE You, they have missed on more evaluations than they have hit on. Guaranteed.

No one says that they can't be wrong on what they feel. Doesn't mean their opinion doesn't have the same amount of value as someone you like to believe. Most of the time, you try to knock down an opinion because its one you don't agree with. That, or you try to knock down the PERSON giving the opinion, because they gave one you didn't like.

vandammage13
08-18-2011, 10:04 AM
then don't take them seriously. There are HUNDREDS of players passed in the NFL. No matter what person you choose to listen to, you listen to them because they have an opinion you VALUE...or an opinion that purely matches yours. However, no matter whom that person is, I PROMISE You, they have missed on more evaluations than they have hit on. Guaranteed.

No one says that they can't be wrong on what they feel. Doesn't mean their opinion doesn't have the same amount of value as someone you like to believe. Most of the time, you try to knock down an opinion because its one you don't agree with. That, or you try to knock down the PERSON giving the opinion, because they gave one you didn't like.

Or it just goes to show that QBs are a crapshoot and you can't really evaluate them until you see the field...

LordTrychon
08-18-2011, 10:05 AM
Wow... I thought Brohm washed out of the NFL, and I thought that was awful quick...

Turns out he's got a pair of starts in Buffalo... and man, is it bad.

That's too bad. Liked him in college.

TXBRONC
08-18-2011, 10:05 AM
I don't see any humor in what they said.

It was a bad prediction.

BroncoNut
08-18-2011, 10:07 AM
Or it just goes to show that QBs are a crapshoot and you can't really evaluate them until you see the field...

totally can't. you can evaluate their talent when they left the NCAA, but it just doesn't seem to be a true indicator for the NFL.

vandammage13
08-18-2011, 10:12 AM
I don't see any humor in what they said.

It was a bad prediction.

To me it is hilarious in a round about way, in the sense that they are wrong so many times, yet somehow we as the viewers are supposed to view them as credible evaluators of talent when we probably have just as good of a chance of predicting any QBs success at the next level as they do.

To make predictions on who is going to succeed and who isn't before they see them play on this level is a futile task...

Dzone
08-18-2011, 10:19 AM
LMAO!!!!! :pound: :pound: :pound:
Hoge is just smart enough to baffle with bullshit.
Someone needs to send that video to Tim Tebow...post it on his facebook page...:pound:

Dzone
08-18-2011, 10:26 AM
"Brian Brohms upside is greater than Aaron Rogers"
:pound:

vandammage13
08-18-2011, 10:27 AM
"Brian Brohms upside is greater than Aaron Rogers"
:pound:

I'm glad someone gets it :beer:

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 10:41 AM
Or it just goes to show that QBs are a crapshoot and you can't really evaluate them until you see the field...

Ok. Then no one shoudl draft a QB in the upper rounds and just take a roll of the dice with just any player. No evaluations.

But practice field counts as the playing field. If they can't do the simple/basic stuff in practice, they sure as hell can't do it in games. Just sayin.

Dzone
08-18-2011, 10:45 AM
I'm glad someone gets it :beer:
It aint hard to see the humor there. I guess its how you look at it.

vandammage13
08-18-2011, 10:54 AM
Ok. Then no one shoudl draft a QB in the upper rounds and just take a roll of the dice with just any player. No evaluations.

But practice field counts as the playing field. If they can't do the simple/basic stuff in practice, they sure as hell can't do it in games. Just sayin.

Uhh...no you should definitely draft the guy you feel has the best odds of making it...Just know that nothing is guaranteed. No one is a guaranteed bust, just as no one is guaranteed success.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 12:47 PM
Uhh...no you should definitely draft the guy you feel has the best odds of making it...Just know that nothing is guaranteed. No one is a guaranteed bust, just as no one is guaranteed success.

I think thats a given. But that being the case, why call out a couple guys that gave their prediction/evaluation/opinion on QBs? Their's is no different than hundreds of others. It isn't a coincidence that you picked these guys since one is has put down one of our QBs.

I guess we should put down Clayton as well. He just stated, in his interview with Schlereth, that he's very impressed with Elway and his decisions, but thinks Tebow is the third best QB on the roster. Not only that, but said he would be the third best QB on most rosters. In fact, said that if there were three vets on the team, Tebow would most likely be the 4th best QB on the team. Its just been THAT bad for Tebow.

jhildebrand
08-18-2011, 01:09 PM
The highlight to be made here, IMHO, is to listen to the evaluators who don't speak in absolutes i.e. McShay, Kiper, and Hoge. Guys like Charles Davis and Mike Mayock are a much better source! They don't speak in absolutes and finite terms. They just come across as more in tune with what will translate from college to the pros and under what circumstances/terms.

As to Hoge, be careful with him. I think his time at ESPN may be coming to an end. He may be using Tebow to his advantage to keep his name out there in the event his contract is not renewed. Finally, Gannon said all that needs to be said about Hoge and his 'evaluating' QB's.

:2cents:

vandammage13
08-18-2011, 01:17 PM
I think thats a given. But that being the case, why call out a couple guys that gave their prediction/evaluation/opinion on QBs? Their's is no different than hundreds of others. It isn't a coincidence that you picked these guys since one is has put down one of our QBs.

I guess we should put down Clayton as well. He just stated, in his interview with Schlereth, that he's very impressed with Elway and his decisions, but thinks Tebow is the third best QB on the roster. Not only that, but said he would be the third best QB on most rosters. In fact, said that if there were three vets on the team, Tebow would most likely be the 4th best QB on the team. Its just been THAT bad for Tebow.

I tend to want to think they are right, because what they say is very rational when it comes down to it....

But then I see Tebow every time he's been on the field and he has never looked even close to as bad as they say...

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 01:26 PM
The highlight to be made here, IMHO, is to listen to the evaluators who don't speak in absolutes i.e. McShay, Kiper, and Hoge. Guys like Charles Davis and Mike Mayock are a much better source! They don't speak in absolutes and finite terms. They just come across as more in tune with what will translate from college to the pros and under what circumstances/terms.

As to Hoge, be careful with him. I think his time at ESPN may be coming to an end. He may be using Tebow to his advantage to keep his name out there in the event his contract is not renewed. Finally, Gannon said all that needs to be said about Hoge and his 'evaluating' QB's.

:2cents:


But there is a difference. Mayock wants to speak in vague tones so that he doesn't stick his neck out, and can never be pointed out as wrong.

Just because you aren't willing to put your opinion on the chopping block for people to scrutinize, doesn't mean you are "doing it right." It means they are playing it nice and safe. Which is fine for them. Its what they like to do... be safe.

Hoge was the ONLY one that predicted the Patriots to beat the Rams, and the Giants to beat the Patriots. He makes his predictions bold and confident and without reservation nor hesitation. Nothing wrong with that....unless you don't like what he's saying, then it comes across as being "complete bs."
Like I said, we like those that share the same opinions, and don't like those that don't. That goes for religion, politics, and simple choices in life.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2011, 01:32 PM
But there is a difference. Mayock wants to speak in vague tones so that he doesn't stick his neck out, and can never be pointed out as wrong.

Just because you aren't willing to put your opinion on the chopping block for people to scrutinize, doesn't mean you are "doing it right." It means they are playing it nice and safe. Which is fine for them. Its what they like to do... be safe.

Hoge was the ONLY one that predicted the Patriots to beat the Rams, and the Giants to beat the Patriots. He makes his predictions bold and confident and without reservation nor hesitation. Nothing wrong with that....unless you don't like what he's saying, then it comes across as being "complete bs."
Like I said, we like those that share the same opinions, and don't like those that don't. That goes for religion, politics, and simple choices in life.

Hoge is perfectly within his right to give his analysis of Tebow. That's his job. My problem is the way in which he did it. He was unprofessional and added insult to his analysis.

Then, with a complete lack of sincerity claims it wasn't personal. The way he said it was very personal. I think he came off looking like a complete ass.

MOtorboat
08-18-2011, 01:36 PM
Hoge is perfectly within his right to give his analysis of Tebow. That's his job. My problem is the way in which he did it. He was unprofessional and added insult to his analysis.

Then, with a complete lack of sincerity claims it wasn't personal. The way he said it was very personal. I think he came off looking like a complete ass.

What insult? There wasn't a single insult in anything he said.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 01:37 PM
Hoge is perfectly within his right to give his analysis of Tebow. That's his job. My problem is the way in which he did it. He was unprofessional and added insult to his analysis.

Then, with a complete lack of sincerity claims it wasn't personal. The way he said it was very personal. I think he came off looking like a complete ass.

Its not unprofessional. YOU feel it was because he was harsh on Tebow, thus you TOOK it as personal. WHy would you think its personal? It wasn't personal and it wasnt unprofessional.

Many think he came off looking like an ass, but so what? Most of the time, when someone makes a statement that is exaggerated compared to everyone else's, they look like an ass. There may be TONS of people that wanted to say the exact same things, but didn't have the nerve to say it as they feel it. I think Hoge is right. If the name on the back of the jersey didn't say Tebow.......

People that tell us that Tebow is going to "change the QB position forever"..... look like asses. Thats what exaggeration does.

vandammage13
08-18-2011, 01:40 PM
Its not unprofessional. YOU feel it was because he was harsh on Tebow, thus you TOOK it as personal. WHy would you think its personal? It wasn't personal and it wasnt unprofessional.

Many think he came off looking like an ass, but so what? Most of the time, when someone makes a statement that is exaggerated compared to everyone else's, they look like an ass. There may be TONS of people that wanted to say the exact same things, but didn't have the nerve to say it as they feel it. I think Hoge is right. If the name on the back of the jersey didn't say Tebow.......

People that tell us that Tebow is going to "change the QB position forever"..... look like asses. Thats what exaggeration does.

In Hoge's defense, he did also have similar harsh criticism toward Vince Young... Although despite being a head case, VY has done pretty well when he's played.

I will add that Hoge's tone when speaking about Tebow almost seemed like he was angry, though...

Nomad
08-18-2011, 01:46 PM
Hoge is perfectly within his right to give his analysis of Tebow. That's his job. My problem is the way in which he did it. He was unprofessional and added insult to his analysis.

Then, with a complete lack of sincerity claims it wasn't personal. The way he said it was very personal. I think he came off looking like a complete ass.

Were you and jhil listening to Mike and Scott yesterday because you both are echoing what they said. But they said it has to do with Hoge's demeanor and absolutes that makes his analysis hard to take serious. They did say Hoge could be right but he seems to be taking the Tebow thing personnel.

I've always viewed Hoge as an angry NFL mediocre FB. Sure he has scrambled eggs for brains but he was angry before that. Perhaps not failure but he wasn't all that!

jhildebrand
08-18-2011, 01:46 PM
But there is a difference. Mayock wants to speak in vague tones so that he doesn't stick his neck out, and can never be pointed out as wrong.

Come on, Rav! Mayock came out and said Cutler would be the best of that QB draft class when everybody had Leinart and VY years ahead of him. If that wasn't sticking his neck out, I don't know what is.

He also said some pretty strong stuff about Ayers!



Just because you aren't willing to put your opinion on the chopping block for people to scrutinize, doesn't mean you are "doing it right." It means they are playing it nice and safe. Which is fine for them. Its what they like to do... be safe.

Mayock has put his name out there quite a bit.



Hoge was the ONLY one that predicted the Patriots to beat the Rams, and the Giants to beat the Patriots. He makes his predictions bold and confident and without reservation nor hesitation. Nothing wrong with that....unless you don't like what he's saying, then it comes across as being "complete bs."
Like I said, we like those that share the same opinions, and don't like those that don't. That goes for religion, politics, and simple choices in life.

I disagree here. Some people have learned that pushing the envelope is good for the bottom line. We are a society that rewards that kind of behavior and have in this case.

I am not one to only listen to those I agree with. In fact, I like to listen to those who differ with me to see if they can give me something to think about or change my mind. Herm Edwards on the fan the other day did just that!

As for Hoge, I just question who he is to "evaluate" the QB. Gannon pointed out the many flaws with that.

jhildebrand
08-18-2011, 01:52 PM
Its not unprofessional. YOU feel it was because he was harsh on Tebow, thus you TOOK it as personal. WHy would you think its personal? It wasn't personal and it wasnt unprofessional.

That is YOUR opinion of it Rav. Many think Hoge was unprofessional in his DELIVERY of his opinion especially with DMAC (whom I typically cannot stand).



People that tell us that Tebow is going to "change the QB position forever"..... look like asses. Thats what exaggeration does.

He could. That is the same kind of absolutes I am talking about w/ Hoge et al just the opposite end of the spectrum!


Were you and jhil listening to Mike and Scott yesterday because you both are echoing what they said. But they said it has to do with Hoge's demeanor and absolutes that makes his analysis hard to take serious. They did say Hoge could be right but he seems to be taking the Tebow thing personnel.

I've always viewed Hoge as an angry NFL failure. Sure he has scrambled eggs for brains but he was angry before that.

I was listening to the show. However, I have pointed out Hoge's speaking in definites prior to yesterday. Again, my issue with Hoge isn't even his 'passion' it is the fact that I dont know that he is QUALIFIED to be evaluating the QB position. That and I really get the feeling this is to get his name out there because he may no longer be with ESPN much longer. Apparently they just hired Josina Anderson :lol:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2011, 01:59 PM
What insult? There wasn't a single insult in anything he said.

"The idea that the Denver Broncos would let him play QB is a complete joke".

That's an insult and a personal attack.

Why does he need to do that? Why can't he just say he doesn't see Tebow being a starting QB?

He adds insult to his anlaysis then tries to claim it wasn't personal. It was absolutely personal, and if he went in to where you work and said the idea that your employer would let you do your job for that company is a complete joke you would take it personal.

I don't see how this is complicated.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Were you and jhil listening to Mike and Scott yesterday because you both are echoing what they said. But they said it has to do with Hoge's demeanor and absolutes that makes his analysis hard to take serious. They did say Hoge could be right but he seems to be taking the Tebow thing personnel.

I've always viewed Hoge as an angry NFL mediocre FB. Sure he has scrambled eggs for brains but he was angry before that. Perhaps not failure but he wasn't all that!

No, I didn't listen to it.


I've never cared for Hoge, so I typically don't listen to what he has to say. This time his opinion was hard to miss though.

Regarding Hoge being angry:
If you went to Idaho State you'd be angry too. :laugh: Pocatello, Idaho is not exactly one of America's 100 most desirable places to live.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Come on, Rav! Mayock came out and said Cutler would be the best of that QB draft class when everybody had Leinart and VY years ahead of him. If that wasn't sticking his neck out, I don't know what is.

He also said some pretty strong stuff about Ayers!
Ok... so he's given a strong "prediction" in the complimantary fashion towards players. Ok.



I disagree here. Some people have learned that pushing the envelope is good for the bottom line. We are a society that rewards that kind of behavior and have in this case.
Ok. So whats the problem with Hoge doing the same? People in the media business try to get reactions from people, because people DO NOT REACT if they agree with the person's opinion. They SCREAM is someone is adament with opposing views.



As for Hoge, I just question who he is to "evaluate" the QB. Gannon pointed out the many flaws with that.

You've mentioned this twice, as if Gannon is the end all of discussions. Why is that? What makes Gannon's opinion so noteworthy? What has Gannon got to say about Jaws criticisms? Jaws said that Tim is NOT ready, will not be ready, and if Orton is on the roster will be the starter for the rest of the season because its NOT EVEN CLOSE.

For one, I don't see why anyone thinks that Hoge can't evaluate other positions than what he played?:confused: Is Gannon going to tell us that he's never given an opinion of another position? WHat about the GMs/coaches in the NFL? Are they qualified to evaluate/opinionate positions other than they played? Why is it this "who is he" question is even asked? NO ONE that scouts, coaches, GMs, or announces has EVER played every position on the field, yet they get PAID to evaluate all players. Weird how that works, and someone needs to remind Gannon of this.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 02:13 PM
That is YOUR opinion of it Rav. Many think Hoge was unprofessional in his DELIVERY of his opinion especially with DMAC (whom I typically cannot stand).
Yes, thats is MY opinion. I don't see a problem with people being strong in their opinions, and didn't find it to be "Unprofessional" in the least. I guess someone needs to define exactly what they feel is "professional" since giving a strong negative opinion is considered not to fit those parameters. If the "strong opinion" would have been given in the positive light, NO ONE would be complaining about it being "unprofessional."


He could. That is the same kind of absolutes I am talking about w/ Hoge et al just the opposite end of the spectrum!
Exactly Jhil, thats why I said it. That was the POINT of my comment.

But sinces it's not a "positive" perspective, thus its "unprofessional" and its "attacking." We have become a society of such weeenies. Can't hear a negative word or criticisms without calling people "haters." After all, Hoge is "attacking" Tebow by saying the Broncos playing him is a joke. Thats not an attack. Thats not insult. Thats no different than the HUNDREDS of posts we've seen on this board that say that tebow PROVED to be a better QB based on three games. No different, other than the delivery.


I was listening to the show. However, I have pointed out Hoge's speaking in definites prior to yesterday. Again, my issue with Hoge isn't even his 'passion' it is the fact that I dont know that he is QUALIFIED to be evaluating the QB position. That and I really get the feeling this is to get his name out there because he may no longer be with ESPN much longer. Apparently they just hired Josina Anderson :lol:

I've already discussed this in the other reply. I think its silly to try and say he's not "qualified" to evaluate the QB position. Thats just silly and nonesense. Hoge understands the game and breaks down gamefilm as good as anyone in the business. He is most certainly "qualified" to evaluate the QB and give his opinion..... positive or negative as it may be when given.

I also don't know what Hoge's jump placement has anything to do with anything. What does him not being at ESPN have to do with the discussion, you've mentioned it twice now?

jhildebrand
08-18-2011, 02:27 PM
I also don't know what Hoge's jump placement has anything to do with anything. What does him not being at ESPN have to do with the discussion, you've mentioned it twice now?

I am simply stating that, IMHO, Hoge and his delivery should be taken with caution as I believe he is using it to further his own personal career. Which is different than offering his analysis as part of his job!

jhildebrand
08-18-2011, 02:32 PM
as if Gannon is the end all of discussions. Why is that? What makes Gannon's opinion so noteworthy? What has Gannon got to say about Jaws criticisms? Jaws said that Tim is NOT ready, will not be ready, and if Orton is on the roster will be the starter for the rest of the season because its NOT EVEN CLOSE.


The difference is Gannon played QB where as Hoge didn't. You don't find that the least bit pertinent to the situation? :confused: One person, when they played had to know what every position on the field was doing and the other didn't! One person can look at film and have a firm grasp as to what the playcall was, what the reads should be, etc... It isn't like everybody knows our playbook! They are making educated guesses but IMO Gannon would be more suited to make those guesses having been a QB.

As for Jaws, yes I do give his words more weight than Hoge's for the same reason as Gannon. I could care less if they aren't positive.

At the end of the day for me re Tebow, I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS about what people say anymore because it is 50% on one side and 50% on the other. I just want to see the kid play and find out for certain.

lgenf
08-18-2011, 03:25 PM
its all about how much work you are willing to put in at the pro level

who knows, maybe Brohm was a better talent straight out of college, but clearly Rodgers is better now, did they just sit on their asses and let it come to them, nope they worked for it, and something clearly clicked.

Could be the offense worked better for one then the other, could be the Rodgers sitting just worked for him, could be the T2 will get it at the end of the year and Orton get's it now - I know this much, USUALLY when you put in the work, it pays!

Northman
08-18-2011, 03:45 PM
To me it is hilarious in a round about way, in the sense that they are wrong so many times, yet somehow we as the viewers are supposed to view them as credible evaluators of talent when we probably have just as good of a chance of predicting any QBs success at the next level as they do.

To make predictions on who is going to succeed and who isn't before they see them play on this level is a futile task...

Indeed, while a lot of commentators have some good insight to the sport itself many times they are doing nothing more than the average forum member and throwing darts at the board. The reality is they dont know any more than we do if a player is going to succeed or not.

Northman
08-18-2011, 03:47 PM
I think thats a given. But that being the case, why call out a couple guys that gave their prediction/evaluation/opinion on QBs? Their's is no different than hundreds of others. It isn't a coincidence that you picked these guys since one is has put down one of our QBs.

I guess we should put down Clayton as well. He just stated, in his interview with Schlereth, that he's very impressed with Elway and his decisions, but thinks Tebow is the third best QB on the roster. Not only that, but said he would be the third best QB on most rosters. In fact, said that if there were three vets on the team, Tebow would most likely be the 4th best QB on the team. Its just been THAT bad for Tebow.


I can answer that. Clayton generally thinks out his analysis and thoughts logically (much like i think you do but Clay doesnt. Sorry Clayman). But Hoge is a baffoon who makes himself look like a complete ass and a jilted lover.

zbeg
08-18-2011, 04:42 PM
its all about how much work you are willing to put in at the pro level

who knows, maybe Brohm was a better talent straight out of college, but clearly Rodgers is better now, did they just sit on their asses and let it come to them, nope they worked for it, and something clearly clicked.

Could be the offense worked better for one then the other, could be the Rodgers sitting just worked for him, could be the T2 will get it at the end of the year and Orton get's it now - I know this much, USUALLY when you put in the work, it pays!

If hard work is all it took, we wouldn't be having this discussion about Tebow right now.

He's the posterchild for "work hard and get results," except he's working hard - without the results. Yet.

lgenf
08-18-2011, 04:49 PM
if hard work is all it took, we wouldn't be having this discussion about tebow right now.

He's the posterchild for "work hard and get results," except he's working hard - without the results. Yet.

yet

Lancane
08-18-2011, 06:28 PM
It's not easy to evaluate talent and takes a lot more then just watching film, looking into his grades, measuring the school and program of production. You want to evaluate as much about them as you can, what kind of kid were they; what familial health issues are there to be concerned with; do they come from a wealthy, blue collar or poverty stricken family; have they worked and where; what is their best school subject; is there a history of violence, drug abuse or any other criminal activities; what extra curricular activities have they been involved in and so on.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 06:34 PM
The difference is Gannon played QB where as Hoge didn't. You don't find that the least bit pertinent to the situation? :confused: One person, when they played had to know what every position on the field was doing and the other didn't! One person can look at film and have a firm grasp as to what the playcall was, what the reads should be, etc... It isn't like everybody knows our playbook! They are making educated guesses but IMO Gannon would be more suited to make those guesses having been a QB.

As for Jaws, yes I do give his words more weight than Hoge's for the same reason as Gannon. I could care less if they aren't positive.

At the end of the day for me re Tebow, I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS about what people say anymore because it is 50% on one side and 50% on the other. I just want to see the kid play and find out for certain.

Ok. So if you don't give two craps, and its a 50-50 shot as to who's right and who isn't... how is Hoge not qualified? As I JUST pointed out, there are HUNDREDS of people that are in the business of evaluating talent that have NEVER PLAYED QB. You can NOT base that opinion based on THAT fact when I can't name a single NFL head coach that played QB in the NFL. I guess none of them are qualified to evaluate QBs???? You don't think thats a least bit pertinent to Gannon's comments???? :confused:

NightTerror218
08-18-2011, 06:35 PM
It's not easy to evaluate talent and takes a lot more then just watching film, looking into his grades, measuring the school and program of production. You want to evaluate as much about them as you can, what kind of kid were they; what familial health issues are there to be concerned with; do they come from a wealthy, blue collar or poverty stricken family; have they worked and where; what is their best school subject; is there a history of violence, drug abuse or any other criminal activities; what extra curricular activities have they been involved in and so on.

Not to mention scouts when evaluating players find anything small wrong report it, they have to find as many reason not to draft as they do to draft him. Its more like getting paid to criticize a player. All employers want to know the down side, since its the upside that is shown the most.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 06:36 PM
I can answer that. Clayton generally thinks out his analysis and thoughts logically (much like i think you do but Clay doesnt. Sorry Clayman). But Hoge is a baffoon who makes himself look like a complete ass and a jilted lover.

Yes and no. I think Hoge Definitely speaks from more of an emotional side (like me) than Clayton who is one that that is very analitical. But that doesn't mean Hoge (although looking like a jilted lover) doesn't have valid points... even IF they are painted with exaggerated brush strokes.

Lancane
08-18-2011, 06:38 PM
The difference is Gannon played QB where as Hoge didn't. You don't find that the least bit pertinent to the situation? :confused: One person, when they played had to know what every position on the field was doing and the other didn't! One person can look at film and have a firm grasp as to what the playcall was, what the reads should be, etc... It isn't like everybody knows our playbook! They are making educated guesses but IMO Gannon would be more suited to make those guesses having been a QB.

As for Jaws, yes I do give his words more weight than Hoge's for the same reason as Gannon. I could care less if they aren't positive.

At the end of the day for me re Tebow, I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS about what people say anymore because it is 50% on one side and 50% on the other. I just want to see the kid play and find out for certain.

Playing the quarterback position doesn't matter, actually I've found that former defensive backs are the best evaluators of talent because they're asked to watch and do so much at their own given positions...watch the quarterback, the receivers, the tight ends, to rush the passer now and then, so they need to understand the blocking package and just as much about the offensive tackles. Like Elway said, being a quarterback he's probably a better judge of defensive talent, he can probably help a quarterback develop, but he's use to evaluating the defenses he faced and the players of those defenses that he had to come to understand their play.

NightTerror218
08-18-2011, 06:38 PM
Yes and no. I think Hoge Definitely speaks from more of an emotional side (like me) than Clayton who is one that that is very analitical. But that doesn't mean Hoge (although looking like a jilted lover) doesn't have valid points... even IF they are painted with exaggerated brush strokes.

I personally think Hoge is an idiot. He is the one person who evaluation was out of the blue. It came off more as a personal attack then an evaluation.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 06:40 PM
Playing the quarterback position doesn't matter, actually I've found that former defensive backs are the best evaluators of talent because they're asked to watch and do so much at their own given positions...watch the quarterback, the receivers, the tight ends, to rush the passer now and then, so they need to understand the blocking package and just as much about the offensive tackles. Like Elway said, being a quarterback he's probably a better judge of defensive talent, he can probably help a quarterback develop, but he's use to evaluating the defenses he faced and the players of those defenses that he had to come to understand their play.

Good points... certainly a different perspective.

I know I found it pretty telling when Palmer came out and told the press about the weaknesses of Baltimore's safety....whatshisname. It IS who he studies.

MOtorboat
08-18-2011, 06:42 PM
I personally think Hoge is an idiot. He is the one person who evaluation was out of the blue. It came off more as a personal attack then an evaluation.

This just astounds me. Was this the first time you ever listened to Hoge?

Hoge has been saying things in this exact manner for years. He's opinionated and at times abrasive. That's what he does. This isn't new, and it's not a personal attack on Tebow.

NightTerror218
08-18-2011, 06:46 PM
This just astounds me. Was this the first time you ever listened to Hoge?

Hoge has been saying things in this exact manner for years. He's opinionated and at times abrasive. That's what he does. This isn't new, and it's not a personal attack on Tebow.

It was the first time I have heard him not of him though.

MOtorboat
08-18-2011, 06:50 PM
It was the first time I have heard him not of him though.

That pretty much somes up the UofF West faction's reaction to this right there.

NightTerror218
08-18-2011, 06:52 PM
That pretty much somes up the UofF West faction's reaction to this right there.

Are you throwing me into U of F crowd?

MOtorboat
08-18-2011, 06:54 PM
Are you throwing me into U of F crowd?

Yup.

broncoFan!
08-18-2011, 06:56 PM
Ok. So if you don't give two craps, and its a 50-50 shot as to who's right and who isn't... how is Hoge not qualified? As I JUST pointed out, there are HUNDREDS of people that are in the business of evaluating talent that have NEVER PLAYED QB. You can NOT base that opinion based on THAT fact when I can't name a single NFL head coach that played QB in the NFL. I guess none of them are qualified to evaluate QBs???? You don't think thats a least bit pertinent to Gannon's comments???? :confused:

Lol Ravage, still at it against Tebow? Hoge has it against Tebow for some reason. I think it is because it draws views to his website. Same with Michael Lombardi. I don't think any of these guys really know what they are talking about. The only person I trust 100% when it comes to an analysis of Denver is Adam Schefter.

Lindsay Jones is a pretty accurate reporter too. I actually agree with Jamie Dukes on Tebow though... give the kid a chance to play QB in the NFL and he will blow you away. But you got to be behind him totally or not bother with him at all.

NightTerror218
08-18-2011, 06:56 PM
Yup.

I hate the SEC.....so um how about not. :tsk::tsk:

Lancane
08-18-2011, 06:59 PM
Not to mention scouts when evaluating players find anything small wrong report it, they have to find as many reason not to draft as they do to draft him. Its more like getting paid to criticize a player. All employers want to know the down side, since its the upside that is shown the most.

Of course they have to be critical, it's a billion dollar industry and the job market is wide open year in and year out for those who can succeed. Each team is trying to get to the coveted position of Super Bowl Champion, but beyond that they want to put a product on the field which draws the fans and therein their money. I've known some excellent football players who never did much at the next level, that's the way of it...some we're bitter and others not so much. I loved the sport since the day I first donned pads, once I was in college I knew that it was 50/50 chance of succeeding or not, but in fact I came to love the other aspects of the sport just as much that I really didn't hate those who surpassed be or were more gifted because I was just as drawn to the other aspects of the game.

I know some people are not going to like my next statement, but that's not really my problem...Tebow shouldn't have been drafted until the third round, he's not a first round quarterback in regards to his intangibles, it's everything else about him that made him even a third round pick, his drive and upside, his freakish athletic ability and so on. Terrelle Pryor is a better pro quarterback prospect then Tebow was and is at this time...and I'm not sold that he can succeed in the NFL himself.

NightTerror218
08-18-2011, 07:03 PM
Of course they have to be critical, it's a billion dollar industry and the job market is wide open year in and year out for those who can succeed. Each team is trying to get to the coveted position of Super Bowl Champion, but beyond that they want to put a product on the field which draws the fans and therein their money. I've known some excellent football players who never did much at the next level, that's the way of it...some we're bitter and others not so much. I loved the sport since the day I first donned pads, once I was in college I knew that it was 50/50 chance of succeeding or not, but in fact I came to love the other aspects of the sport just as much that I really didn't hate those who surpassed be or were more gifted because I was just as drawn to the other aspects of the game.

I know some people are not going to like my next statement, but that's not really my problem...Tebow shouldn't have been drafted until the third round, he's not a first round quarterback in regards to his intangibles, it's everything else about him that made him even a third round pick, his drive and upside, his freakish athletic ability and so on. Terrelle Pryor is a better pro quarterback prospect then Tebow was and is at this time...and I'm not sold that he can succeed in the NFL himself.

I was not expecting us to draft him at all. I was hoping for McCoy actually. But I liked Tebow in college, so I was stoked about the draft. I though he would be a mid to later 2nd rounder.

Lancane
08-18-2011, 07:12 PM
I was not expecting us to draft him at all. I was hoping for McCoy actually. But I liked Tebow in college, so I was stoked about the draft. I though he would be a mid to later 2nd rounder.

I expected Denver and New England to look at Tebow because Belichick and McDaniels are associated with Meyers, and I had a feeling that McDaniels being the lesser of the two would bite on the proverbial bullet because it made sense to save his job which was rocky at best. And I wholly agree with you, McCoy was a far better choice, I'm actually surprised that we surpassed him for Tebow because he is and was such a better pro-quarterback prospect compared to the other. Belichick got the last laugh though, we drafted the highly controversial quarterback, he didn't and then he got Mallet which really pisses me off.

Ravage!!!
08-18-2011, 11:50 PM
Lol Ravage, still at it against Tebow? Hoge has it against Tebow for some reason. I think it is because it draws views to his website. Same with Michael Lombardi. I don't think any of these guys really know what they are talking about. The only person I trust 100% when it comes to an analysis of Denver is Adam Schefter.

Lindsay Jones is a pretty accurate reporter too. I actually agree with Jamie Dukes on Tebow though... give the kid a chance to play QB in the NFL and he will blow you away. But you got to be behind him totally or not bother with him at all.

Wait. You think Schefter is the one to listen to when evaluating talent? Because Schef is a guy that gets stories, but isn't exactly one that is known for being a personnel guy. I don't know what you mean by listening to Schefter and Lindsay Jones when it comes to the discussion of talent evaluation.:confused:

I don't have anything against Tebow. I'm just not upset when I hear someone that does have something critical to say about Tebow.

Watchthemiddle
08-19-2011, 12:39 AM
then don't take them seriously. There are HUNDREDS of players passed in the NFL. No matter what person you choose to listen to, you listen to them because they have an opinion you VALUE...or an opinion that purely matches yours. However, no matter whom that person is, I PROMISE You, they have missed on more evaluations than they have hit on. Guaranteed.

No one says that they can't be wrong on what they feel. Doesn't mean their opinion doesn't have the same amount of value as someone you like to believe. Most of the time, you try to knock down an opinion because its one you don't agree with. That, or you try to knock down the PERSON giving the opinion, because they gave one you didn't like.

Just wanted to repost this stellar post.....:rolleyes:

Are you talking about the "you" being you? Or everyone else being the "you"? You never do that do you??

:coffee:

chazoe60
08-19-2011, 01:28 AM
None of these guys kbow shit. I just want a QB who is tough and can win a SB for this team. If it's that boring ass ****** Orton then so be it.

BroncoJoe
08-19-2011, 08:27 AM
Hard to call Tebow a bust or success after one season and three starts. The offseason NFL lockout hurt him big time.

We'll never know until we see him on the field for an extended amount of time.

BroncoNut
08-19-2011, 10:25 AM
None of these guys kbow shit. I just want a QB who is tough and can win a SB for this team. If it's that boring ass ****** Orton then so be it.

that might be my biggest Peeve with Orton. He's so boring to watch. but if he brings wins, that will alleviate much of that. not counting on it though

Canmore
08-19-2011, 02:12 PM
that might be my biggest Peeve with Orton. He's so boring to watch. but if he brings wins, that will alleviate much of that. not counting on it though

Orton is boring. It is one of the many reason people hate him.

Elway was the ultimate when it came to excitement. Plummer and Cutler, they were exciting. We have a kid on our rooster that brings excitement to the game. Wish he were playing.

Stargazer
08-19-2011, 02:39 PM
People on espn make a name for themselves the louder they get. Think of it as job security.

Stargazer
08-19-2011, 02:40 PM
Orton is boring. It is one of the many reason people hate him.


It's entertainment.

When the most important player on the field is boring to watch and isn't great at doing his job, people are going to complain and hate him.

TXBRONC
08-19-2011, 04:59 PM
Ok... so he's given a strong "prediction" in the complimantary fashion towards players. Ok.



Ok. So whats the problem with Hoge doing the same? People in the media business try to get reactions from people, because people DO NOT REACT if they agree with the person's opinion. They SCREAM is someone is adament with opposing views.




You've mentioned this twice, as if Gannon is the end all of discussions. Why is that? What makes Gannon's opinion so noteworthy? What has Gannon got to say about Jaws criticisms? Jaws said that Tim is NOT ready, will not be ready, and if Orton is on the roster will be the starter for the rest of the season because its NOT EVEN CLOSE.

For one, I don't see why anyone thinks that Hoge can't evaluate other positions than what he played?:confused: Is Gannon going to tell us that he's never given an opinion of another position? WHat about the GMs/coaches in the NFL? Are they qualified to evaluate/opinionate positions other than they played? Why is it this "who is he" question is even asked? NO ONE that scouts, coaches, GMs, or announces has EVER played every position on the field, yet they get PAID to evaluate all players. Weird how that works, and someone needs to remind Gannon of this.

There huge between saying Tebow never be able to play the positon and saying he's not ready. It was unnecessary for Hoge to say Tebow is an embarrassment. That's Hoge being a jerk.

Canmore
08-19-2011, 05:10 PM
There huge between saying Tebow never be able to play the positon and saying he's not ready. It was unnecessary for Hoge to say Tebow is an embarrassment. That's Hoge being a jerk.

Hoge took way to many blows to the head. He blows.

Hoge's stance is that Tebow will never pan out. I would like to see him get a chance to play before he is written off. Will it happen here? I don't know. Orton has to be injured and Tebow needs to beat out Quinn before that happens in Denver. As for next year, I have no idea, but I would not be surprised to see a first round quarter back, and that doesn't bode well for Tebow.