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MasterShake
08-14-2011, 06:23 PM
Heard a great question posed on a local sports station this morning in regards to our QB situation, and I think it really nails what bugs me about it.

To start I need to explain that first and foremost I am a Broncos fan and really just do want what's best for our team. I'm ok with Orton starting, but I think I would be more interested to see Tebow start to see how/if he develops. The main argument of why Orton is starting is that he gives us the best chance to win. The question I heard posed earlier is, what exactly does that mean?

Before the trade fell apart with Orton, I was resigned to the fact that we would be a 4-7 win team with Tebow, and hopefully he would make some progress. But since Orton is our "best" option to win, do we expect more? That would mean to me that Orton should win 7-10 games to justify his playing time this season, and we should even be shooting for a low playoff seed. Otherwise if the difference between Orton and Tebow is only a game or two and we are out of the playoff picture regardless, why not just cut Orton and let Tebow play to see what happens?

I hope that makes sense, but it pretty much sums up my disappointment with our QB situation. If we are going to have an off year anyway, why not have a little excitement with our young gunslinger QB instead of Neckbeard?

So my question in this thread is not so much who is a better QB (that subject is beaten to death and I'm sure everyone has their mind made up), but if Kyle Orton is the better QB should we hold him to a much higher standard as far as winning goes? And at what point record wise would you pull him if you were in charge. I say if Orton is that much better than Tebow as all the experts have been saying and our team is improved, I expect at least 7-9 wins if he played all year. And if we are under .500 at the BYE, I think its Tebow time.

camdisco24
08-14-2011, 06:31 PM
Orton is a Vet in the prime of his career. I expect him to live up to what HE'S been saying and what the coaching staff is saying. IMO, if he preforms like he did last year, he is heavily underachieving based on what I have been reading this off season. I have MUCH higher expectations since that is basically what the FO is telling us.

If he brings us more wins this year, I am 100% on board to support him. BUT if we suck in the RZ and choke in the 4th quarter. I'm 100% done with neckbeard. Simple as that. Basically it's a strike 3 and you're out situation on my side.

chazoe60
08-14-2011, 06:32 PM
IMHO we are a 5 win team with Orton and ae are a 5 win team with Tebow. If Tebow does awful maybe we drop to 3 or 4 wins. If he's just flat out terrible a 1 or 2 win team and we draft Luck.

I think that's what is so frustrating. There is absolutely no long term benefit to starting Orton unless he wins 10 games and proves 80% of Bronco fans wrong and becomes a franchise QB, I think the chances of that happening are so slim as to be laughable.

A five wib season with Orton putting on his usual average yo below average performance leaves us in the same situation next season that we are in now and we still won't know if Tebow can be the guy. Couple those facts with the strength of next years QB class and we are basicslly wasting this season and probably drafting a QB in the first round next year also. Then if Tebow goes on to do well with another team we look really bad.

Clipworthy
08-14-2011, 06:33 PM
Tebow brings an unknown W/L record to the table, while we already know what Orton's gonna do. It's quite the strange situation, the staff is more afraid of the possibility of Tebow failing than the team all together...

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 06:36 PM
Heard a great question posed on a local sports station this morning in regards to our QB situation, and I think it really nails what bugs me about it.

To start I need to explain that first and foremost I am a Broncos fan and really just do want what's best for our team. I'm ok with Orton starting, but I think I would be more interested to see Tebow start to see how/if he develops. The main argument of why Orton is starting is that he gives us the best chance to win. The question I heard posed earlier is, what exactly does that mean?

Before the trade fell apart with Orton, I was resigned to the fact that we would be a 4-7 win team with Tebow, and hopefully he would make some progress. But since Orton is our "best" option to win, do we expect more? That would mean to me that Orton should win 7-10 games to justify his playing time this season, and we should even be shooting for a low playoff seed. Otherwise if the difference between Orton and Tebow is only a game or two and we are out of the playoff picture regardless, why not just cut Orton and let Tebow play to see what happens?

I hope that makes sense, but it pretty much sums up my disappointment with our QB situation. If we are going to have an off year anyway, why not have a little excitement with our young gunslinger QB instead of Neckbeard?

So my question in this thread is not so much who is a better QB (that subject is beaten to death and I'm sure everyone has their mind made up), but if Kyle Orton is the better QB should we hold him to a much higher standard as far as winning goes? And at what point record wise would you pull him if you were in charge. I say if Orton is that much better than Tebow as all the experts have been saying and our team is improved, I expect at least 7-9 wins if he played all year. And if we are under .500 at the BYE, I think its Tebow time.

What that means is that Orton gives us chance to win more games than the other quarterbacks on the roster. Game to game and on the season as whole. Florio of PFT thinks that with Orton at quarterback Denver has a shot to make the playoffs.

We might have chance at the playoffs if the defense is vastly improved. I never seen Orton as the kind of quarterback who can put a team on his back and win games. If we're reliant on him to pull us through tight games I think we'll end up on the short end of the stick more times than not.

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 06:38 PM
Orton is a Vet in the prime of his career. I expect him to live up to what HE'S been saying and what the coaching staff is saying. IMO, if he preforms like he did last year, he is heavily underachieving based on what I have been reading this off season. I have MUCH higher expectations since that is basically what the FO is telling us.

If he brings us more wins this year, I am 100% on board to support him. BUT if we suck in the RZ and choke in the 4th quarter. I'm 100% done with neckbeard. Simple as that. Basically it's a strike 3 and you're out situation on my side.

I don't see much changing in the red zone and third down efficiency because Orton's mind set is to play not to make mistakes.

Medford Bronco
08-14-2011, 06:39 PM
IMHO we are a 5 win team with Orton and ae are a 5 win team with Tebow. If Tebow does awful maybe we drop to 3 or 4 wins. If he's just flat out terrible a 1 or 2 win team and we draft Luck.

I think that's what is so frustrating. There is absolutely no long term benefit to starting Orton unless he wins 10 games and proves 80% of Bronco fans wrong and becomes a franchise QB, I think the chances of that happening are so slim as to be laughable.

A five wib season with Orton putting on his usual average yo below average performance leaves us in the same situation next season that we are in now and we still won't know if Tebow can be the guy. Couple those facts with the strength of next years QB class and we are basicslly wasting this season and probably drafting a QB in the first round next year also. Then if Tebow goes on to do well with another team we look really bad.

I think we are a 5 win team with Quinn as well.

I would rather the young guy. I think the skillset between Orton and Quinn is not as great as some think. Orton is better but it not like Aaron Rodgers to Jimmy Clausen as some would think here

Northman
08-14-2011, 06:42 PM
To start I need to explain that first and foremost I am a Broncos fan and really just do want what's best for our team.

The fact you had to even state that is sad but understandable considering the attack that some posters have come under for criticizing or commenting on the state of the team.


I'm ok with Orton starting, but I think I would be more interested to see Tebow start to see how/if he develops.

This is my view as well. If he's not going to be our guy and we want to draft a QB next year i would like to see and make sure that Tebow isnt that guy. So far in 3 games Tebow has played just as well as other highly viewed QB's who started their first 3 games and even better than some of them. I would say that deserves a fair shot to play some more.


The main argument of why Orton is starting is that he gives us the best chance to win. The question I heard posed earlier is, what exactly does that mean?

Before the trade fell apart with Orton, I was resigned to the fact that we would be a 4-7 win team with Tebow, and hopefully he would make some progress. But since Orton is our "best" option to win, do we expect more? That would mean to me that Orton should win 7-10 games to justify his playing time this season, and we should even be shooting for a low playoff seed. Otherwise if the difference between Orton and Tebow is only a game or two and we are out of the playoff picture regardless, why not just cut Orton and let Tebow play to see what happens?

BINGO.

I just said this in "players support Orton" thread. If the players are behind Orton than great. More power to them but they claim he gives them the best chance to win so what that tells me is that they have high expectations of winning 10 games or more and making the playoffs this year. And if thats the case i will not settle for less because that is what they have chosen to base their decision on. Same with the coaches, if they feel they have a legitimate shot of winning more than 8 ballgames than it better happen otherwise they will continue to have egg on their face.


I hope that makes sense, but it pretty much sums up my disappointment with our QB situation. If we are going to have an off year anyway, why not have a little excitement with our young gunslinger QB instead of Neckbeard?

Again, great point. When Jay came in for Jake in the 06' season i knew our chances of making the playoffs were about nil. However, i knew that it was a chance for Jay to get some playing time and i was FAR more excited to watch him than Jake. I was willing to take the growing pains then because i knew what his potential was as a QB (Lucky Bears). I feel the same way now. Now that Elway and company at least seem a little more serious about the Dline (to some degree anyway) i want to see what Tebow has.

Just got done watching the first preseason game again and although Tebow made some silly mistakes it was fun again to watch a kid play with passion. I dont get that at all from Orton.


So my question in this thread is not so much who is a better QB (that subject is beaten to death and I'm sure everyone has their mind made up), but if Kyle Orton is the better QB should we hold him to a much higher standard as far as winning goes? And at what point record wise would you pull him if you were in charge. I say if Orton is that much better than Tebow as all the experts have been saying and our team is improved, I expect at least 7-9 wins if he played all year. And if we are under .500 at the BYE, I think its Tebow time.

Absolutely.

If the players and coaches had simply just come out and said they want Orton because of his experience and that Tebow needed to sit longer i could give them a pass. But they claim he gives them the best chance to win NOW. So now i will hold them to it.

NightTrainLayne
08-14-2011, 06:45 PM
The current Front Office is stuck with a bad choice presented to them from McDaniels.

They didn't overload the roster with unproven QB's, McD did.

Now they have to make the best of it. Right now Orton is playing by far the best. Hopefully, he really is hitting his peak, and can continue this level of play throughout the season. I have my doubts.

The FO can't justify starting anyone else, with Orton playing so well. To do so, would alienate other players who expect that their performance on the field is what earns their roster spots. Many of these players we will need for years into the future.

The current leadership, cannot risk alienating players for years to come who might question, or lose trust in the FO decision-making process.

It's easy for us to say that if Orton doesn't lead to more wins, we'd rather see Tebow. Sure. . .he's more exciting. But if you're in that locker room, and see that Orton is head and shoulders out-performing Tebow right now, there is no other answer than that Orton needs to be the starter. Anyone else fighting for a roster spot would want to be treated that way.

Slick
08-14-2011, 07:20 PM
The current Front Office is stuck with a bad choice presented to them from McDaniels.

They didn't overload the roster with unproven QB's, McD did.

Now they have to make the best of it. Right now Orton is playing by far the best. Hopefully, he really is hitting his peak, and can continue this level of play throughout the season. I have my doubts.

The FO can't justify starting anyone else, with Orton playing so well. To do so, would alienate other players who expect that their performance on the field is what earns their roster spots. Many of these players we will need for years into the future.

The current leadership, cannot risk alienating players for years to come who might question, or lose trust in the FO decision-making process.

It's easy for us to say that if Orton doesn't lead to more wins, we'd rather see Tebow. Sure. . .he's more exciting. But if you're in that locker room, and see that Orton is head and shoulders out-performing Tebow right now, there is no other answer than that Orton needs to be the starter. Anyone else fighting for a roster spot would want to be treated that way.

This is an ugly truth. One that I don't necessarily want to hear right now but it is true. Good post NTL.

Nomad
08-14-2011, 07:37 PM
I know the starting role is pretty much set, but if Kyle has lackluster games against the Raiders and Bengals, I don't see how the BRONCOS don't go in a different direction at the starting QB position. Both games at home against mediocre teams!

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 07:38 PM
The current Front Office is stuck with a bad choice presented to them from McDaniels.

They didn't overload the roster with unproven QB's, McD did.

Now they have to make the best of it. Right now Orton is playing by far the best. Hopefully, he really is hitting his peak, and can continue this level of play throughout the season. I have my doubts.

The FO can't justify starting anyone else, with Orton playing so well. To do so, would alienate other players who expect that their performance on the field is what earns their roster spots. Many of these players we will need for years into the future.

The current leadership, cannot risk alienating players for years to come who might question, or lose trust in the FO decision-making process.

It's easy for us to say that if Orton doesn't lead to more wins, we'd rather see Tebow. Sure. . .he's more exciting. But if you're in that locker room, and see that Orton is head and shoulders out-performing Tebow right now, there is no other answer than that Orton needs to be the starter. Anyone else fighting for a roster spot would want to be treated that way.


This is an ugly truth. One that I don't necessarily want to hear right now but it is true. Good post NTL.

I don't think at the end of the day it's going to matter who starting the quarterback is.

Northman
08-14-2011, 07:42 PM
I don't think at the end of the day it's going to matter who starting the quarterback is.

Its not.

While what NTL said has some merit the problem is this team seems to be pretty clueless of where they are at in terms of winning. Sure, they will play hard but at the end of the day they wont be holding the Lombardi at the end of the year. Fox and company should of explained to them that the process was going to be a long one with some growing pains. If Fox told and promised them great things this year than he lied. No one can convince me that Tebow cant do the same things that Orton can. The fact that some players who were here last year dont understand that or either in denial or about themselves and i think we know who those players are.

Tned
08-14-2011, 07:50 PM
IMHO, the only good reason to start Orton is if Fox and company believe the team has a legitimate shot at a playoff beth -- something I don't think is out of the realm of possibility.

However, what NTL and others bring up about losing the locker room is valid concern. Elway saw it with the Brister/Griese situation.

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 07:53 PM
Its not.

While what NTL said has some merit the problem is this team seems to be pretty clueless of where they are at in terms of winning. Sure, they will play hard but at the end of the day they wont be holding the Lombardi at the end of the year. Fox and company should of explained to them that the process was going to be a long one with some growing pains. If Fox told and promised them great things this year than he lied. No one can convince me that Tebow cant do the same things that Orton can. The fact that some players who were here last year dont understand that or either in denial or about themselves and i think we know who those players are.

The more I think about it them more I'm starting to believe that EFX is going to draft a quarterback early next year. If one of our three quarterbacks were to pull off a deep run into the playoffs that could possibly throw a monkey wrench into the process but even then might not be enough to keep Elway from selecting a quarterback high in the draft.

I don't know what Fox is saying to his team but I don't think he can let them think losing is ok just because we're in a rebuilding process.

BigDaddyBronco
08-14-2011, 07:54 PM
The current Front Office is stuck with a bad choice presented to them from McDaniels.

They didn't overload the roster with unproven QB's, McD did.

Now they have to make the best of it. Right now Orton is playing by far the best. Hopefully, he really is hitting his peak, and can continue this level of play throughout the season. I have my doubts.

The FO can't justify starting anyone else, with Orton playing so well. To do so, would alienate other players who expect that their performance on the field is what earns their roster spots. Many of these players we will need for years into the future.

The current leadership, cannot risk alienating players for years to come who might question, or lose trust in the FO decision-making process.

It's easy for us to say that if Orton doesn't lead to more wins, we'd rather see Tebow. Sure. . .he's more exciting. But if you're in that locker room, and see that Orton is head and shoulders out-performing Tebow right now, there is no other answer than that Orton needs to be the starter. Anyone else fighting for a roster spot would want to be treated that way.

To piggyback on this, Elway and Fox are in a tough spot. They must live by the mantra of they guys that prepare the best and look the best get to play. There are plenty of veterans on the team that want to win and fully believe they have a chance of making the playoffs with this team. Team leaders like Dawkins and Champ don't have many years left and want every chance of making a run at it. We can all be sideline coaches and GM's, but until they play a few games and see what they have, they are going to prepare like they have a shot.

Orton will play until his play is the reason they are losing or Tebow or Quinn make great strides in practice and take his job.

Nomad
08-14-2011, 07:58 PM
To piggyback on this, Elway and Fox are in a tough spot. They must live by the mantra of they guys that prepare the best and look the best get to play. There are plenty of veterans on the team that want to win and fully believe they have a chance of making the playoffs with this team. Team leaders like Dawkins and Champ don't have many years left and want every chance of making a run at it. We can all be sideline coaches and GM's, but until they play a few games and see what they have, they are going to prepare like they have a shot.

Orton will play until his play is the reason they are losing or Tebow or Quinn make great strides in practice and take his job.

That's why I believe the Raiders and Bengals games are a good litmus test for the guy! If he sucks against them, it won't get any easier as the year goes on!

Lonestar
08-14-2011, 07:59 PM
Sorry did nit read most of the posts here so if this is like one of them then it was a geniius post.

TEbow should not play till he is rEady. if him starting him means it arrests his development of learning the offense, working on his mechanics or riding defenses then no he sahoild not start unless there Is no other option.
Would he learn faster as the starter perhaps but would that ingrain bad habits that he has now. Good chance. I beleive he is the FQB we have been looking for since John retired it has been ten years or so. Another half to full season I can wait.

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Northman
08-14-2011, 08:12 PM
The more I think about it them more I'm starting to believe that EFX is going to draft a quarterback early next year. If one of our three quarterbacks were to pull off a deep run into the playoffs that could possibly throw a monkey wrench into the process but even then might not be enough to keep Elway from selecting a quarterback high in the draft.

I don't know what Fox is saying to his team but I don't think he can let them think losing is ok just because we're a rebuilding process.

Im not saying he should let them think losing ok, only that he undersands its not all going to come together now. To go into next years draft and draft a QB without knowing what you have already is very poor management. A lot of people are hinging their bets on Luck when,

1) We dont even know if we will be in the running.

and

2) Whether or not that kid can even play at the NFL level regardless of reputation.

Better to know now what we have and worry about drafting another QB later than vice versa.

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 09:00 PM
This is so interesting. Everyone is looking to the past to condemn Orton. And there's a lot of peering into the future for hope (the idea that tebow will be great, the dream of Andrew luck). But there's little focus on the now; and right now Orton is better than tebow. It's fact, not opinion. Quinn might be better than tebow right now.

Can we please debate something else? Even a tebow vs Quinn thread would be nice.

I Eat Staples
08-14-2011, 09:04 PM
The current Front Office is stuck with a bad choice presented to them from McDaniels.

They didn't overload the roster with unproven QB's, McD did.

Now they have to make the best of it. Right now Orton is playing by far the best. Hopefully, he really is hitting his peak, and can continue this level of play throughout the season. I have my doubts.

The FO can't justify starting anyone else, with Orton playing so well. To do so, would alienate other players who expect that their performance on the field is what earns their roster spots. Many of these players we will need for years into the future.

The current leadership, cannot risk alienating players for years to come who might question, or lose trust in the FO decision-making process.

It's easy for us to say that if Orton doesn't lead to more wins, we'd rather see Tebow. Sure. . .he's more exciting. But if you're in that locker room, and see that Orton is head and shoulders out-performing Tebow right now, there is no other answer than that Orton needs to be the starter. Anyone else fighting for a roster spot would want to be treated that way.

I see your point, but its normal for pro sports teams to start inexperienced young players over veterans who are ahead of them for the sake of the future. But I guess the players are more understanding if you wait until the season is actually lost.

The Kansas City Royals are a good example.

MasterShake
08-14-2011, 09:14 PM
This is so interesting. Everyone is looking to the past to condemn Orton. And there's a lot of peering into the future for hope (the idea that tebow will be great, the dream of Andrew luck). But there's little focus on the now; and right now Orton is better than tebow. It's fact, not opinion. Quinn might be better than tebow right now.

Can we please debate something else? Even a tebow vs Quinn thread would be nice.

The point of this thread is not to compare, contrast, praise, or bash Orton. Just a simple question of if our expectations change because he is so much better than Tebow right now. I would be THRILLED if we went 10-6 somehow, don't get me wrong.

Lonestar
08-14-2011, 09:17 PM
This is so interesting. Everyone is looking to the past to condemn Orton. And there's a lot of peering into the future for hope (the idea that tebow will be great, the dream of Andrew luck). But there's little focus on the now; and right now Orton is better than tebow. It's fact, not opinion. Quinn might be better than tebow right now.

Can we please debate something else? Even a tebow vs Quinn thread would be nice.

Hey Rational fan you are being rational. :salute::salute: Great post.. :beer:

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 09:47 PM
This is so interesting. Everyone is looking to the past to condemn Orton. And there's a lot of peering into the future for hope (the idea that tebow will be great, the dream of Andrew luck). But there's little focus on the now; and right now Orton is better than tebow. It's fact, not opinion. Quinn might be better than tebow right now.

Can we please debate something else? Even a tebow vs Quinn thread would be nice.

Ok don't people peer into the past to praise Orton?

Ravage!!!
08-14-2011, 09:50 PM
and right now Orton is better than tebow. It's fact, not opinion.

Nope. Thats still an opinion. No matter how many people agree with your opinion, its still an opinion. Now THAT is a fact.

NorCalBronco7
08-14-2011, 11:26 PM
Its really hard for me to understand how some of you guys come up with these hypotheticals surrounding the Broncos QB issue. Its crystal clear. Orton is an experienced, capble NFL player and Tebow is completely unknown. The goal is winning ultimately, and chances are the more proven player will fair better. Its that simple. Tebow could win more games, but nobody knows right now with any ceartainty. It would be a huge gamble for the Broncos to roll with Tebow.

Slick
08-14-2011, 11:31 PM
Norcal, why did we try to trade Orton the very second the cba was finalized?

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BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 11:32 PM
Ok don't people peer into the past to praise Orton?

Yep, but that doesn't count. :laugh:

NorCalBronco7
08-14-2011, 11:35 PM
Norcal, why did we try to trade Orton the very second the cba was finalized?

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Does this play into the QB situation currently? No it doesnt. Please tell me how you think it does.

Slick
08-14-2011, 11:42 PM
I think people are freaking out because they thought it(shopping orton as soon as possible) meant we were willing to go in another direction.

Therefore it isn't crystal clear for them. Hence the hypotheticals.

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NorCalBronco7
08-14-2011, 11:49 PM
I think people are freaking out because they thought it(shopping orton as soon as possible) meant we were willing to go in another direction.

Therefore it isn't crystal clear for them. Hence the hypotheticals.

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Its clear that Orton is not in the Broncos long term future. But shopping him doesnt suggest that the Broncos want to go with either Tebow or Quinn while Orton is still on the team.

Slick
08-15-2011, 12:00 AM
Shopping him in the first place meant they were willing to go with tebow or quinn.

Right?

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NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:12 AM
Shopping him in the first place meant they were willing to go with tebow or quinn.

Right?

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Right. Now bring it all together for me somehow. :confused:

Slick
08-15-2011, 12:19 AM
:bandit:

Many posters feel like the rug got pulled out from under them.

EFX pulled a fast one on them.

They okie doked us.

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NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:22 AM
Shopping him in the first place meant they were willing to go with tebow or quinn.

Right?

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If by shopping Orton your suggesting the Broncos want Tebow or Quinn to start irregaurdless of who the better player is on the current roster, then your wrong.

NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:23 AM
:bandit:

Many posters feel like the rug got pulled out from under them.

EFX pulled a fast one on them.

They okie doked us.

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I was pretty unhappy too. We all wanted value for Orton before hes gone.

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:26 AM
I was pretty unhappy too. We all wanted value for Orton before hes gone.


Well, not all of us. I would of gladly given him away for a box of peanuts.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 12:26 AM
I was pretty unhappy too. We all wanted value for Orton before hes gone.

Yes. Value for Orton would have been nice as would have playing Tebow or Quinn. Now we are going to let Orton walk and we have no idea what Tebow or Quinn brings to the table. Lose, lose, lose all the way around.

PAINTERDAVE
08-15-2011, 12:28 AM
Norcal, why did we try to trade Orton the very second the cba was finalized?

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Because Orton ASKED to be traded.

At that Point..
EFX was all good with resolving
this debate
by shipping out Kyle.

It was a done deal.

They were prepared to go forward with
finding out what we have in the young guns.

That said...

This is a good topic.


Yes... If Kyle is gonna start...
we should expect to make the playoffs.

If Kyle takes us to the playoffs
then his last year of service here will have
been worthy of congratulations.

Go Kyle. Go Kyle. :elefant:

PAINTERDAVE
08-15-2011, 12:32 AM
If by shopping Orton your suggesting the Broncos want Tebow or Quinn to start irregaurdless of who the better player is on the current roster, then your wrong.

Agreed... once Orton's exorbinant salry demands
(rumoured to be 10 million a year)
killed the deal...

all bets were off.

The veteran Orton being here put a wrench in the works.

They are nearly obligated to start him.

And heck... if Kyle CAN be succesful and
finaly get a winning season for a change..
I am all for us making the playoffs.

Once the season is over...
however...
I seriously doubt EFX will pay Kyle his
30 million for 3 years
or 40 million for 4 years
that he is expecting in 4 months...

NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:34 AM
Well, not all of us. I would of gladly given him away for a box of peanuts.

Thank God your not in anyway calling the shots for Denver because you would make a habit of losing value. I wouldnt be surprised if thats how you handle your fantasy team either. ;)


Yes. Value for Orton would have been nice as would have playing Tebow or Quinn. Now we are going to let Orton walk and we have no idea what Tebow or Quinn brings to the table. Lose, lose, lose all the way around.

Do the Broncos really have no idea what Tebow/Quinn can do? Really?

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:34 AM
Because Orton ASKED to be traded.

At that Point..
EFX was all good with resolving
this debate
by shipping out Kyle.

It was a done deal.

They were prepared to go forward with
finding out what we have in the young guns.

That said...

This is a good topic.


Yes... If Kyle is gonna start...
we should expect to make the playoffs.

If Kyle takes us to the playoffs
then his last year of service here will have
been worthy of congratulations.

Go Kyle. Go Kyle. :elefant:


:lol:

Dont count on it.

If what some people like Clay, Rav, or whoever say is true and the FO isnt sold on Tebow and Orton takes us to the playoffs get ready for a longterm deal with Orton.

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:36 AM
Thank God your not in anyway calling the shots for Denver because you would make a habit of losing value. I wouldnt be surprised if thats how you handle your fantasy team either. ;)



Nah, FF is nothing like real football not sure if you got that memo. ;)


However, I would of glady taken a 4th or 5th for Kyle because thats really about all he is worth. The fact that teams were willing to go another direction rather than come after him speaks volumes.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 12:38 AM
Thank God your not in anyway calling the shots for Denver because you would make a habit of losing value. I wouldnt be surprised if thats how you handle your fantasy team either. ;)



Do the Broncos really have no idea what Tebow/Quinn can do? Really?

I think they have a very good idea of what they have. They appeared to be ready to start one of them when they tried to trade Kyle. How we would have done with one of them under center is just speculation unless Kyle gets injured (highly possible) or benched.

NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:41 AM
Nah, FF is nothing like real football not sure if you got that memo. ;)


However, I would of glady taken a 4th or 5th for Kyle because thats really about all he is worth. The fact that teams were willing to go another direction rather than come after him speaks volumes.

It doesnt speak volumes about the current Qb situation. It more less says Orton isnt considered a franchise Qb, which we already knew.

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:44 AM
It doesnt speak volumes about the current Qb situation. It more less says Orton isnt considered a franchise Qb, which we already knew.

Indeed, meaning he wasnt worth what they were trying to get for him. ;)

NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:47 AM
Indeed, meaning he wasnt worth what they were trying to get for him. ;)

Maybe the contract was the defining issue. Who knows?

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:50 AM
Maybe the contract was the defining issue. Who knows?

For Miami maybe. But there were a lot of teams looking for QB's and some went with over the hill guy and another went with a QB with less starts than Orton. Something just tells me nobody thought he was worth the asking price.

NorCalBronco7
08-15-2011, 12:51 AM
For Miami maybe. But there were a lot of teams looking for QB's and some went with over the hill guy and another went with a QB with less starts than Orton. Something just tells me nobody thought he was worth the asking price.

Its probably both.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 12:54 AM
Maybe the contract was the defining issue. Who knows?

From what I have been able to piece together, Miami and Denver had an agreement in place on compensation for Kyle Orton, but the Fish were not able to come to a contract extension agreement with Orton. He wanted about twice as much money as they were willing to pay. If Orton lights it up this year he will be glad he held out. If he repeats his 2010 numbers on third down, in the red zone and in crunch time he will wish he had taken their offer. Time will tell.

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:55 AM
Its probably both.

Well, all i know is as much as i hear about if Orton had a running game and defense he would be much better. Well, both Arizona and Minny have those and yet passed on him. If they truly thought Orton was the kind of guy to get them to the promise land than they would of done whatever it took i would think. While i think we asked for too much, it also wasnt like asking for what we got with Cutler. Im not sure what Minny paid for McNabb but Arizona forked over a lot of cash for a guy who hasnt seen much action.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 01:02 AM
Well, all i know is as much as i hear about if Orton had a running game and defense he would be much better. Well, both Arizona and Minny have those and yet passed on him. If they truly thought Orton was the kind of guy to get them to the promise land than they would of done whatever it took i would think. While i think we asked for too much, it also wasnt like asking for what we got with Cutler. Im not sure what Minny paid for McNabb but Arizona forked over a lot of cash for a guy who hasnt seen much action.

Arizona payed Kolb a lot based on potential and not much else. His career numbers didn't jump off of the page. That said, Arizona passed on Kyle because they were concerned about his third down conversion, red zone and crunch time stats. No one but Miami seemed interested on taking a flyer with Kyle Orton. Kyle should have an improved defense and some semblance of a running game. It's his contract year it's time to put up.

Northman
08-15-2011, 01:14 AM
Arizona payed Kolb a lot based on potential and not much else. His career numbers didn't jump off of the page. That said, Arizona passed on Kyle because they were concerned about his third down conversion, red zone and crunch time stats.

Exactly. Which tells me that even teams that are in better shape than Denver dont think Kyle is the answer at QB.


Kyle should have an improved defense and some semblance of a running game. It's his contract year it's time to put up.

I wouldnt count on it but i have no doubt that he and Lloyd will try to repeat and inflate their stats again to get big payday's. But that wont do much in the way of telling the team what they have in Tebow if they are eyeing taking a QB early in the draft next year.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 01:24 AM
Exactly. Which tells me that even teams that are in better shape than Denver dont think Kyle is the answer at QB.



I wouldnt count on it but i have no doubt that he and Lloyd will try to repeat and inflate their stats again to get big payday's. But that wont do much in the way of telling the team what they have in Tebow if they are eyeing taking a QB early in the draft next year.

No, it is not going to help us out when it comes to evaluating Tebow or Quinn with live bullets. I believe we are going to look real hard at taking a first round quarterback in the 2012 draft, especially if we put up the kind of record I am predicting.

claymore
08-15-2011, 01:37 AM
The current Front Office is stuck with a bad choice presented to them from McDaniels.

They didn't overload the roster with unproven QB's, McD did.

Now they have to make the best of it. Right now Orton is playing by far the best. Hopefully, he really is hitting his peak, and can continue this level of play throughout the season. I have my doubts.

The FO can't justify starting anyone else, with Orton playing so well. To do so, would alienate other players who expect that their performance on the field is what earns their roster spots. Many of these players we will need for years into the future.

The current leadership, cannot risk alienating players for years to come who might question, or lose trust in the FO decision-making process.

It's easy for us to say that if Orton doesn't lead to more wins, we'd rather see Tebow. Sure. . .he's more exciting. But if you're in that locker room, and see that Orton is head and shoulders out-performing Tebow right now, there is no other answer than that Orton needs to be the starter. Anyone else fighting for a roster spot would want to be treated that way.

Great post NTL, I dont see how anyone could see it differently.

claymore
08-15-2011, 01:40 AM
Exactly. Which tells me that even teams that are in better shape than Denver dont think Kyle is the answer at QB.



I wouldnt count on it but i have no doubt that he and Lloyd will try to repeat and inflate their stats again to get big payday's. But that wont do much in the way of telling the team what they have in Tebow if they are eyeing taking a QB early in the draft next year.

Dude, they already know what they have in Tebow. He cant beat out Orton.

We will be drafting a QB next year.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 01:43 AM
Great post NTL, I dont see how anyone could see it differently.

They tried to move Orton, it didn't pan out so now you play the hand you are dealt. Kyle is heads above the others in practice or so everyone is saying. You start Kyle Orton. I don't think it is what Elway wanted, I know it's not what the fans wanted and it's certainly not what I wanted. It is what it is.

claymore
08-15-2011, 02:23 AM
They tried to move Orton, it didn't pan out so now you play the hand you are dealt. Kyle is heads above the others in practice or so everyone is saying. You start Kyle Orton. I don't think it is what Elway wanted, I know it's not what the fans wanted and it's certainly not what I wanted. It is what it is.

Yeah this is a pickle that Mcd put us in. It will take years to get another QB at the same level as Cutler before he left.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 02:32 AM
Yeah this is a pickle that Mcd put us in. It will take years to get another QB at the same level as Cutler before he left.

Cutler is a whiney, baby but at this point in time I wish he was still our whiney baby.

claymore
08-15-2011, 02:40 AM
Cutler is a whiney, baby but at this point in time I wish he was still our whiney baby.

I disagree that he is a whiney baby. But, I agree that we shouldnt have traded him. Bowlen backed the wrong dude that time.

Lonestar
08-15-2011, 02:46 AM
Well, not all of us. I would of gladly given him away for a box of peanuts.
Guess that means you'd rather lose and have peanuts.

Some fanatic you are.

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Canmore
08-15-2011, 02:46 AM
I disagree that he is a whiney baby. But, I agree that we shouldnt have traded him. Bowlen backed the wrong dude that time.

On that point we will disagree, but Bowlen should have made him play out his contract. We had all the levarage. Letting him go was a mistake imo. Yes, we backed the wrong horse, but it is water under the bridge at this point in time.

pnbronco
08-15-2011, 03:01 AM
Norcal, why did we try to trade Orton the very second the cba was finalized?

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Slick without any mini camps or OTA's IMO the FO only knew what they had based on last year, and that was crap. No running game and D that was dead last.

So if you are going to have to build a new house and you know that your starting QB is unhappy then knock it all down and start over.

Tebow has gotten more accurate, but he is hanging on to the ball so much longer than last year in camp. It's like he's trying so hard to not make a bad decision that he's taking way, way too long. Also you can see that he wants to hit that panic button so fast and just run...... The FO did not know where the kid was till camp started, because he didn't do that last year. Let's face it non of know where Quinn really is in all this or how he will play in a game.

I do understand that fans feel like the rug was pulled out from under them, that they would get something different and they feel like they're not.

However I have to agree with NTL and BBD. If your model of who is named a starter for the team is based on who is the most prepared, then it's Orton. He is reading the play so much faster than the other 2 QB's. If I can see if as a 51 year old women, than his team mates can sure the heck see it too. I have no idea how any of this will play out, but I'm hopeful that the FO can begin to rebuild the Broncos with a stronger foundation for many years to come.

claymore
08-15-2011, 03:11 AM
On that point we will disagree, but Bowlen should have made him play out his contract. We had all the levarage. Letting him go was a mistake imo. Yes, we backed the wrong horse, but it is water under the bridge at this point in time.

Yeah, everyones beliefs on that are firmly entrenched in their minds. Ive just never seen an example of him whining. Ive seen similar stuff from Orton, and worse stuff from Plummer, but no one says anything about it.

I think people just want to hate Cutler.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 03:16 AM
Yeah, everyones beliefs on that are firmly entrenched in their minds. Ive just never seen an example of him whining. Ive seen similar stuff from Orton, and worse stuff from Plummer, but no one says anything about it.

I think people just want to hate Cutler.

There is probably more truth in that statement than many want to acknowledge. Cutler was a talent. He had all the tools imo. I think his only limitation is the mental side of things and that often comes with maturity and time in the league. I wish we still had him. Instead we are 4-12 and he played in the NFCCG.

MasterShake
08-15-2011, 07:11 AM
Yeah, everyones beliefs on that are firmly entrenched in their minds. Ive just never seen an example of him whining. Ive seen similar stuff from Orton, and worse stuff from Plummer, but no one says anything about it.

I think people just want to hate Cutler.

I loved Cutler when he was here, but was mad when he forced his way out. Turned out he was the smartest kid in the class when it came to McD!:lol:

Still... thank god the Bears didn't go to the Super Bowl last year. I don't think I could have taken that. I'm at a good point now with Cutler. Hope he does well this year.

MasterShake
08-15-2011, 07:16 AM
Also, since Cutler found his way into this thread I will make one argument on the other end of the spectrum. To NTL's point earlier about the locker room, I totally agree. I am just coming at this from a fan's perspective, but we have seen two instances here recently (With Griese and Cutler) where the QB was essentially given the job to get some on the job training at the expense of the team. It was really evident how it affected things with Griese's first season (which I think was our worst record until this past season in a while). There is always a chance that with Orton on the team and playing so much better, which I admit he is, that if Tebow was named starter without an Orton injury or him playing himself out of the job it could hurt his development. You can't demand respect from your team, you have to command it. That was the downfall of the McD regime in my opinion, too.

Once again, Go Broncos! If Orton can kick ass this year I am behind him 100%.

claymore
08-15-2011, 07:20 AM
I loved Cutler when he was here, but was mad when he forced his way out. Turned out he was the smartest kid in the class when it came to McD!:lol:

Still... thank god the Bears didn't go to the Super Bowl last year. I don't think I could have taken that. I'm at a good point now with Cutler. Hope he does well this year.

I never placed the blame on Cutler. Bowlen, and McDaniels are the ones I held responsible.

McDaniels cause he is a rat basturd. And Bowlen for not squashing it immediately.

Im completley over it. I accepted along time ago that it would take a long time to replace his talent. Hopefully we can do it next year.

chazoe60
08-15-2011, 07:23 AM
Guess that means you'd rather lose and have peanuts.

Some fanatic you are.

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I'd rather lose and have peanuts than lose and have nothing.

Juriga72
08-15-2011, 07:31 AM
I'd rather lose and have peanuts than lose and have nothing.

Well... Since Kyle is a losing QB here.
I want him and his peanuts gone.

Kyle has given me enough losing to last a lifetime.

Northman
08-15-2011, 07:39 AM
I disagree that he is a whiney baby. But, I agree that we shouldnt have traded him. Bowlen backed the wrong dude that time.

Even though Mcd started that fire Jay didnt do anything to help himself by ignoring Bowlen's calls.

Northman
08-15-2011, 07:41 AM
Guess that means you'd rather lose and have peanuts.

Some fanatic you are.

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We are going to lose anyway. What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Slick
08-15-2011, 09:29 AM
Slick without any mini camps or OTA's IMO the FO only knew what they had based on last year, and that was crap. No running game and D that was dead last.

So if you are going to have to build a new house and you know that your starting QB is unhappy then knock it all down and start over.

Tebow has gotten more accurate, but he is hanging on to the ball so much longer than last year in camp. It's like he's trying so hard to not make a bad decision that he's taking way, way too long. Also you can see that he wants to hit that panic button so fast and just run...... The FO did not know where the kid was till camp started, because he didn't do that last year. Let's face it non of know where Quinn really is in all this or how he will play in a game.

I do understand that fans feel like the rug was pulled out from under them, that they would get something different and they feel like they're not.

However I have to agree with NTL and BBD. If your model of who is named a starter for the team is based on who is the most prepared, then it's Orton. He is reading the play so much faster than the other 2 QB's. If I can see if as a 51 year old women, than his team mates can sure the heck see it too. I have no idea how any of this will play out, but I'm hopeful that the FO can begin to rebuild the Broncos with a stronger foundation for many years to come.

I get all of that pn. It is not over my head.

My problem is the way it was handled. By shopping Orton, especially by doing so before day one of practice, the team indirectly announced that they were willing to go with either Quinn or Tebow. This was heard by the fans, the players, and the rest of the NFL.


What I think happened is EFX saw a few practices and said to themselves, oh shit, Tebow isn't ready and Quinn is Quinn. The problem is they never admitted to it. They leave everyone to speculate.

So after their inflated view of Kyle Orton's value wasn't met, they decided to prop him up as their starter. I think it is a big mistake. Huge!!!!

So to answer Shake's question...yes, we need to be in the playoff hunt to justify this type of thinking by our FO. Not saying we need to make the playoffs, but we better be in the hunt until the last couple of weeks.


Elway could have nipped this whole thing in the bud pretty easily after the trade fell through. They just seem like bumbling idiots to me. Great draft, and now this?

PAINTERDAVE
08-15-2011, 09:30 AM
Well... Since Kyle is a losing QB here.
I want him and his peanuts gone.

Kyle has given me enough losing to last a lifetime.

But that is the point of this discussion..

with Kyle starting for us...
we can all EXPECT to make the playoffs this season.

That is the REASON for not developing the young talent
in this rebuilding year..

It is more of a ..
we have all the pieces...
we can rebuild as we go..
and Kyle will take us to the playoffs on the way.

Anything less than the playoffs from Kyle now is unacceptable.

Lonestar
08-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Indeed, meaning he wasnt worth what they were trying to get for him. ;)

So you think that a FQB can be had for a second round pick?

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Juriga72
08-15-2011, 09:33 AM
So you think that a FQB can be had for a second round pick?

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Franchise? For what? K-Mart?

yeah... Orotn could be a Franchise QB for K-mart anyday.

claymore
08-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Even though Mcd started that fire Jay didnt do anything to help himself by ignoring Bowlen's calls.

Cutler flew all the way back to Denver from Tennessee to work it out. He did his part. Bowlen should have reeled in his coach.


"I went in there with every intention of solving the issue, being a Bronco, moving forward as a Bronco," Cutler said. "We weren't in there but about 20 minutes, [McDaniels] did most of the talking and as far as I'm concerned, he made it clear he wants his own guy. He admitted he wanted Matt Cassel because he said he has raised him up from the ground as a quarterback. He said he wasn't sorry about it. He made it clear that he could still entertain trading me because, as he put it, he'll do whatever he feels is in the best interest of the organization.



"At the end of the meeting, he wasn't like, 'Jay, I want you as our quarterback, you're our guy.' It felt like the opposite. He basically said that I needed to tell him if we can't work this out, to let him know," Cutler added. "I thought he was antagonizing me and that was disappointing because I was ready to move on, committed as a Bronco. Really, I figured we'd hash things out, shake hands, laugh a little and move forward. What happened [Saturday] was the last thing I expected. If I didn't think it could be fixed, I never would have come back to Denver. It was painfully obvious to me and Bus [Cook, his agent] it's not something they want to fix."

BigDaddyBronco
08-15-2011, 09:47 AM
Cutler flew all the way back to Denver from Tennessee to work it out. He did his part. Bowlen should have reeled in his coach.

Maybe Jay didn't reach out because he was in a drunken diabetic shock...


BTW, Bowlen is responsible for everything. Hiring a rookie HC with no real GM, then giving him too much power. Then turning around and cutting him off either too late or too early (if it's your vision, see the damn thing through). Then still don't hire a real GM and get a veteran coach off a team with a worse record than us, and hire your ex QB to run everything.

Could turn out ok, but it could be a mess as well. It's all on Bowlen IMO.

claymore
08-15-2011, 09:53 AM
Maybe Jay didn't reach out because he was in a drunken diabetic shock...


BTW, Bowlen is responsible for everything. Hiring a rookie HC with no real GM, then giving him too much power. Then turning around and cutting him off either too late or too early (if it's your vision, see the damn thing through). Then still don't hire a real GM and get a veteran coach off a team with a worse record than us, and hire your ex QB to run everything.

Could turn out ok, but it could be a mess as well. It's all on Bowlen IMO.

There were several phone calls, conference call, and a personal meeting. Bowlen could have talked to him at any point. He let McD tear it up so bad that there was no going back.

EFX especially EF are leaps and bounds better for us than McD was. I really like the way they are directing the Broncos.

Lonestar
08-15-2011, 09:55 AM
Folks with all the youth on this team, the lack of OTAs, zero NEW coach and player interaction, improving or strong division opponents and a brutal schedule no one in their right mind could think or even hope this would be a playoff team.
If we win a game or two more than we did last year and stay in all the games to the end of it along with players gaining experience.
I'll consider that a winning season.
Playoffs not gonna happen unless al the moons, stars and planned align themselves perfectly.
What are the odds of that?

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TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 09:56 AM
I get all of that pn. It is not over my head.

My problem is the way it was handled. By shopping Orton, especially by doing so before day one of practice, the team indirectly announced that they were willing to go with either Quinn or Tebow. This was heard by the fans, the players, and the rest of the NFL.


What I think happened is EFX saw a few practices and said to themselves, oh shit, Tebow isn't ready and Quinn is Quinn. The problem is they never admitted to it. They leave everyone to speculate.

So after their inflated view of Kyle Orton's value wasn't met, they decided to prop him up as their starter. I think it is a big mistake. Huge!!!!

So to answer Shake's question...yes, we need to be in the playoff hunt to justify this type of thinking by our FO. Not saying we need to make the playoffs, but we better be in the hunt until the last couple of weeks.


Elway could have nipped this whole thing in the bud pretty easily after the trade fell through. They just seem like bumbling idiots to me. Great draft, and now this?

I think there is alternative what happened. First, with this year's free agency being so frantic if they were going to attempt to move Orton they had to get on it right way.

Second, I don't think it's so much that EFX had an over inflated view of Orton's value as it was the $9 million dollar price tag.

Third, Elway and I think even Fox said that Tebow is raw so if they had been able to move Orton they were willing to bite bullet even they knew Orton is more polished.

Orton is going to look good in camp and he's probably going to look good during the preseason against vanilla defenses. Although he still may struggle with the red zone and third down regardless of having limited opportunities.

Lonestar
08-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Maybe Jay didn't reach out because he was in a drunken diabetic shock...

BTW, Bowlen is responsible for everything. Hiring a rookie HC with no real GM, then giving him too much power. Then turning around and cutting him off either too late or too early (if it's your vision, see the damn thing through). Then still don't hire a real GM and get a veteran coach off a team with a worse record than us, and hire your ex QB to run everything.
Could turn out ok, but it could be a mess as well. It's all on Bowlen IMO.

Actually a pretty intellectually honest diagnose of the problem.

It has all boiled down for more than a decade of not having a Professional experienced GM running the team.

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Lonestar
08-15-2011, 10:00 AM
Let me add that jay not returning Pats phone calls was an extraordinary immature stupid thing to do.

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PAINTERDAVE
08-15-2011, 10:22 AM
Folks with all the youth on this team, the lack of OTAs, zero NEW coach and player interaction, improving or strong division opponents and a brutal schedule no one in their right mind could think or even hope this would be a playoff team.
If we win a game or two more than we did last year and stay in all the games to the end of it along with players gaining experience.
I'll consider that a winning season.
Playoffs not gonna happen unless al the moons, stars and planned align themselves perfectly.
What are the odds of that?

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But Kyle gives us the best chance to win RIGHT NOW.

Forget FULL TEAM development..
we dont need to develop the QB position...
we have no questions to answer about 2012...

we have KYLE!

At least for the next 4 months.

Playoffs here we come!

Northman
08-15-2011, 11:16 AM
Cutler flew all the way back to Denver from Tennessee to work it out. He did his part. Bowlen should have reeled in his coach.

Actually, the calls from Bowlen and his teammates happened AFTER that meeting mate. While i do agree Bowlen should of stepped in sooner to try and pretend that Jay had no hand in that drama is naive brother.

claymore
08-15-2011, 11:27 AM
Actually, the calls from Bowlen and his teammates happened AFTER that meeting mate. While i do agree Bowlen should of stepped in sooner to try and pretend that Jay had no hand in that drama is naive brother.

I know the calls were after that meeting. There was a conference call, and phone calls before the meeting as well. Bowlen had plenty of opportunities. That meeting is where things turned into a point of no return.

I think Cutler went over and beyond what he should have done to work things out. He was disrespected and lied to, and he still came to meet the Broncos.

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 11:37 AM
I know the calls were after that meeting. There was a conference call, and phone calls before the meeting as well. Bowlen had plenty of opportunities. That meeting is where things turned into a point of no return.

I think Cutler went over and beyond what he should have done to work things out. He was disrespected and lied to, and he still came to meet the Broncos.

You're making me want to punch McDaniels in his stupid little face. :laugh:

Nomad
08-15-2011, 11:39 AM
For me, it stems back to 2006 draft. I really wanted to build a great defense and our middle piece was right there, then drafting a QB was like WTF to me so I never warmed up to Jay and his antics really drew me farther.

Many of you here have been proven right about McDaniels because I was a wait and see and held on to hope he could turn things around. He was in over his head and acted like a 5 yr old in a toy store. BDB is right that Bowlen has probably the most blame in this. I still believe with Bowlen promising Jay too much and Jay not getting his way, he shut down like a 5 yr old would towards his new HC and the organization. So we had two grown men with the same mentality and neither was budging and going seperate ways.

I'll agree that Cutler has the tools to be a solid QB but still has other issues that need to be fixed. Again, I find it ironic the same people giving Tebow no chance or the same ones that said Cutler will take years to get things straight.

One conclusion I have made is.......claymore is to Cutler as is Jagsbach is to Tebow!

MOtorboat
08-15-2011, 11:40 AM
I think Enderle is a great option and a good pick up for the Bears. He won't push Cutler by any means, but he'll provide solid depth at quarterback if Cutler gets hurt this year.

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 11:49 AM
For me, it stems back to 2006 draft. I really wanted to build a great defense and our middle piece was right there, then drafting a QB was like WTF to me so I never warmed up to Jay and his antics really drew me farther.

Many of you here have been proven right about McDaniels because I was a wait and see and held on to hope he could turn things around. He was in over his head and acted like a 5 yr old in a toy store. BDB is right that Bowlen has probably the most blame in this. I still believe with Bowlen promising Jay too much and Jay not getting his way, he shut down like a 5 yr old would towards his new HC and the organization. So we had two grown men with the same mentality and neither was budging and going seperate ways.

I'll agree that Cutler has the tools to be a solid QB but still has other issues that need to be fixed. Again, I find it ironic the same people giving Tebow no chance or the same ones that said Cutler will take years to get things straight.

One conclusion I have made is.......claymore is to Cutler as is Jagsbach is to Tebow!

The 2006 draft was Shanahan's subtle way of rebuilding without actually rebuilding. The idea was to draft Cutler and let Plummer play out his contract of at least the season with Jay watching from the sideline, didn't work out that way as Plummer checked out mentally the day we drafted Cutler, but it still prevented Denver from going 2-14 for a few years.

Then he added pieces to compliment Jay and keep the offense young but solid. Then hopefully 2009 was going to be all about the defense.

We made a BIG mistake firing Mike when we did. He should have been given a year to fix the defense and make a run, THEN move on if it didn't work out.

But here we are.

claymore
08-15-2011, 11:50 AM
For me, it stems back to 2006 draft. I really wanted to build a great defense and our middle piece was right there, then drafting a QB was like WTF to me so I never warmed up to Jay and his antics really drew me farther.

Many of you here have been proven right about McDaniels because I was a wait and see and held on to hope he could turn things around. He was in over his head and acted like a 5 yr old in a toy store. BDB is right that Bowlen has probably the most blame in this. I still believe with Bowlen promising Jay too much and Jay not getting his way, he shut down like a 5 yr old would towards his new HC and the organization. So we had two grown men with the same mentality and neither was budging and going seperate ways.

I'll agree that Cutler has the tools to be a solid QB but still has other issues that need to be fixed. Again, I find it ironic the same people giving Tebow no chance or the same ones that said Cutler will take years to get things straight.

One conclusion I have made is.......claymore is to Cutler as is Jagsbach is to Tebow!
I knew we were going to draft a QB in 2006 because Plummer couldnt take us to the next level. The writing was on the wall.

Im sick of talking about Cutler, people that call him a head case, or whiner or whatever dont truly understand how everything unfolded.

MOtorboat
08-15-2011, 11:54 AM
Drafting a quarterback in 2006 destroyed success, Hopefully drafting a quarterback in 2012 will build success.

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 12:00 PM
I knew we were going to draft a QB in 2006 because Plummer couldnt take us to the next level. The writing was on the wall.

Im sick of talking about Cutler, people that call him a head case, or whiner or whatever dont truly understand how everything unfolded.

I didn't like Jay's demeanour at all times but he is truly an elite physical presence at QB. If it ever all clicks for him mentally he will be an elite QB. He reminds me of a young Favre, careless with the football but very talented. Favre had Holmgren and a system that was good for him, Cutler hasn't found his groove yet.

There is NO doubt he is 10 TIMES the QB Orton is.

Juriga72
08-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Drafting a quarterback in 2006 destroyed success, Hopefully drafting a quarterback in 2012 will build success.

Nope.... AL Wilson getting hurt "destroyed success"

Top 5 defense W/Al Wilson

Bottom 5 without Al Wilson

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Drafting a quarterback in 2006 destroyed success, Hopefully drafting a quarterback in 2012 will build success.

I have to admit, had i know Jake would of folded like a paper napkin after drafting Cutler i would of gone elsewhere with the pick.

Slick
08-15-2011, 12:02 PM
Folks with all the youth on this team, the lack of OTAs, zero NEW coach and player interaction, improving or strong division opponents and a brutal schedule no one in their right mind could think or even hope this would be a playoff team.
If we win a game or two more than we did last year and stay in all the games to the end of it along with players gaining experience.
I'll consider that a winning season.
Playoffs not gonna happen unless al the moons, stars and planned align themselves perfectly.
What are the odds of that?

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If you truly feel this way then starting Orton makes absolutely no sense at all.

Northman
08-15-2011, 12:02 PM
I didn't like Jay's demeanour at all times but he is truly an elite physical presence at QB. If it ever all clicks for him mentally he will be an elite QB. He reminds me of a young Favre, careless with the football but very talented. Favre had Holmgren and a system that was good for him, Cutler hasn't found his groove yet.

There is NO doubt he is 10 TIMES the QB Orton is.

Exactly.

Great talent no doubt, but still very immature but improving.

MOtorboat
08-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Drafting a quarterback in 2006 destroyed success, Hopefully drafting a quarterback in 2012 will build success.

Nope.... AL Wilson getting hurt "destroyed success"

Top 5 defense W/Al Wilson

Bottom 5 without Al Wilson

Nope. Not drafting players good enough around Wilson, and using those picks to trade up for a quarterback you didn't need destroyed success.

Nevermind that the quarterback you did draft was a turnover machine, an emotional wreck and someone who folded down the stretch three years in a row.

MOtorboat
08-15-2011, 12:15 PM
There is NO doubt he is 10 TIMES the QB Orton is.

10 times the quarterback?

Yeah, not so much.

Nomad
08-15-2011, 12:30 PM
I knew we were going to draft a QB in 2006 because Plummer couldnt take us to the next level. The writing was on the wall.

Im sick of talking about Cutler, people that call him a head case, or whiner or whatever dont truly understand how everything unfolded.

:lol:and you do!

Yeah, Jay is gone never to come back and is extremely happy to be with his lifelong dream team but the question of how things went down....well, it'll always be speculative until the truth comes out by all parties involved. I'm not too proud to admit being wrong but until then I believe the way I do and you believe the way you do.

With all this said, why do you give Jay so much love and leeway but are quick to give up on Tebow and can't stand that people believe in him?

TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 12:36 PM
If you truly feel this way then starting Orton makes absolutely no sense at all.

Yet elsewhere he said that Orton gives us the best chance to win.

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NightTerror218
08-15-2011, 06:07 PM
If by shopping Orton your suggesting the Broncos want Tebow or Quinn to start irregaurdless of who the better player is on the current roster, then your wrong.

Ok that is an opinion not a fact

Sinthor
08-15-2011, 10:51 PM
Heard a great question posed on a local sports station this morning in regards to our QB situation, and I think it really nails what bugs me about it.

To start I need to explain that first and foremost I am a Broncos fan and really just do want what's best for our team. I'm ok with Orton starting, but I think I would be more interested to see Tebow start to see how/if he develops. The main argument of why Orton is starting is that he gives us the best chance to win. The question I heard posed earlier is, what exactly does that mean?

Before the trade fell apart with Orton, I was resigned to the fact that we would be a 4-7 win team with Tebow, and hopefully he would make some progress. But since Orton is our "best" option to win, do we expect more? That would mean to me that Orton should win 7-10 games to justify his playing time this season, and we should even be shooting for a low playoff seed. Otherwise if the difference between Orton and Tebow is only a game or two and we are out of the playoff picture regardless, why not just cut Orton and let Tebow play to see what happens?

I hope that makes sense, but it pretty much sums up my disappointment with our QB situation. If we are going to have an off year anyway, why not have a little excitement with our young gunslinger QB instead of Neckbeard?

So my question in this thread is not so much who is a better QB (that subject is beaten to death and I'm sure everyone has their mind made up), but if Kyle Orton is the better QB should we hold him to a much higher standard as far as winning goes? And at what point record wise would you pull him if you were in charge. I say if Orton is that much better than Tebow as all the experts have been saying and our team is improved, I expect at least 7-9 wins if he played all year. And if we are under .500 at the BYE, I think its Tebow time.

I totally agree. We saw what Orton could do in 2009 and we went 8-8 which is a reasonable expectation for this year, especially if the running game and defense are decent. So let's say Orton is 2 games better than Tebow. I don't think 6-10 is worse enough even as long as TT shows some improvement during the course of the year. If he isn't you yank him. I just don't get how Orton gives them the best chance to win when except for what...one year in Chicago he's shown that he ISN'T. I fully believe that TT would win 1-2 more games than Orton at least. He's already shown he can lead the team and come from behind a significant amount of points to do so. I don't believe we'd have won the Houston game with Orton and I believe that both Oakland and SD would have been losses by a significantly higher amount of points with Orton as well.

I just don't get it. But, if TT doesn't get to play this year and show what he can do, this team will probably draft a QB in the first round next year and we'll probably NEVER know. At least not in Denver.

atwater27
08-15-2011, 10:57 PM
Nope. Not drafting players good enough around Wilson, and using those picks to trade up for a quarterback you didn't need destroyed success.

Nevermind that the quarterback you did draft was a turnover machine, an emotional wreck and someone who folded down the stretch three years in a row.

**EDIT** Coming from someone who embraced and has vehemently defended the worst head coach in Broncos history, your words ring hollow and bitter. go ask Josh now if trading Cutler was the right thing to do.:laugh:

topscribe
08-15-2011, 11:08 PM
Yet elsewhere he said that Orton gives us the best chance to win.

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So where's the contradiction?

-----

topscribe
08-15-2011, 11:12 PM
I knew we were going to draft a QB in 2006 because Plummer couldnt take us to the next level. The writing was on the wall.

Im sick of talking about Cutler, people that call him a head case, or whiner or whatever dont truly understand how everything unfolded.

This season will be a breakout one for Cutler, IMO. We saw flashes of it last
year, enough to get the Bears to the NFC Championship game. The Packers and
the Lions had better be good because the best QB in that Division will be playing
for Chicago, IMO. And I'm a Packers fan (after the Broncos, of course).

-----

Ravage!!!
08-15-2011, 11:25 PM
I think Cutler is going to have a tough year with that Offensive Line. Its looking worse than last season, and I didn't think that was possible.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 11:27 PM
I think Cutler is going to have a tough year with that Offensive Line. Its looking worse than last season, and I didn't think that was possible.

Watched a couple of Bear games last year. If that offensive line is worse look out Chicago.

Npba900
08-16-2011, 08:28 AM
Orton is a Vet in the prime of his career. I expect him to live up to what HE'S been saying and what the coaching staff is saying. IMO, if he preforms like he did last year, he is heavily underachieving based on what I have been reading this off season. I have MUCH higher expectations since that is basically what the FO is telling us.

If he brings us more wins this year, I am 100% on board to support him. BUT if we suck in the RZ and choke in the 4th quarter. I'm 100% done with neckbeard. Simple as that. Basically it's a strike 3 and you're out situation on my side.

Question I have exactly how many victories should Orton have given the fact that the 2011 Broncos are not exactly loaded with talent on both sides of the football. Afterall, Orton is not a super star Franchise QB.

Orton can win 10-13 games if he's surrounded by talent. You put Orton on a rebuilding team and short of injuries (which come often), one can see Kyle winning 2-5 games for team woefully short of talent.

By the way Orton's propensity of injuries will guarantee Tebow will not ride the bench in 2011. But perhaps we should all be asking ourselves how many more games the Bronocs will win in 2011 with a QB (Tim Tebow) that should have been drafted in rounds 3 or 4 (at best) can win on a team that is rebuilding.

Point is, if Tebow was truly a no miss first round draft pick, Tim should have destroyed the competition and wiped Quin and Orton off the face of the map with his talent. And this scenario has not materialize....and will probably not happen.

Npba900
08-16-2011, 08:36 AM
This season will be a breakout one for Cutler, IMO. We saw flashes of it last
year, enough to get the Bears to the NFC Championship game. The Packers and
the Lions had better be good because the best QB in that Division will be playing
for Chicago, IMO. And I'm a Packers fan (after the Broncos, of course).

-----

I agree Cutler is poised for a break out year. However, his offensive line must protect him. Last year Cutler endured 50 plus sacks and managed to guide the Bears to the NFC championship.

No way does Cutler stay up right and injury free this year if the Bear's OL can't protect Jay.

Slick
08-16-2011, 08:51 AM
I think Aaron Rodgers is better than Cutler, Top.

Npba900
08-16-2011, 08:55 AM
For me, it stems back to 2006 draft. I really wanted to build a great defense and our middle piece was right there, then drafting a QB was like WTF to me so I never warmed up to Jay and his antics really drew me farther.

Many of you here have been proven right about McDaniels because I was a wait and see and held on to hope he could turn things around. He was in over his head and acted like a 5 yr old in a toy store. BDB is right that Bowlen has probably the most blame in this. I still believe with Bowlen promising Jay too much and Jay not getting his way, he shut down like a 5 yr old would towards his new HC and the organization. So we had two grown men with the same mentality and neither was budging and going seperate ways.

I'll agree that Cutler has the tools to be a solid QB but still has other issues that need to be fixed. Again, I find it ironic the same people giving Tebow no chance or the same ones that said Cutler will take years to get things straight.

One conclusion I have made is.......claymore is to Cutler as is Jagsbach is to Tebow!

With me it all stems back to Pat Bowlen firing Shanahan at least 3 years too early! Bowlen hastely firing Shanny is real reason the Broncos and the fans are embarking upon its 2nd rebuilding period in as many years since the firing of Shanahan.

And Bowlen's hiring of a 32-33 year offensive coord who was only successfull due to coaching on a team that is a dynasty and a QB slated for the HOF, was this coach's only claim to fame. Hell had a veteran HC been hired after Shanahan's firing the Broncos would not have the QB constroversy(sp), Hillis would still be a Bronco and perhaps still rebuilding.

But anyway, Shanny deserved to play out his contract but more importantly Shanny should have been given a chance to see how his 2006, 07, and 08 draft classes could have panned out by 2011.

MNPatsFan
08-16-2011, 09:47 AM
This season will be a breakout one for Cutler, IMO. We saw flashes of it last year, enough to get the Bears to the NFC Championship game.Cutler very well could have a break out season this season. If he doesn't though, his chances of making the transition to one of the top QBs in the league will begin shrinking because he is entering his sixth season in the NFL.


The Packers and the Lions had better be good because the best QB in that Division will be playing for Chicago, IMO. And I'm a Packers fan (after the Broncos, of course).-----Well guess that might depend on how you define "best" and which criteria you use to make that determination. I think it is highly unlikely that Jay, not Aaron Rodgers, will be the best QB in the division. Jay should be the second best QB in the division this season though.

Northman
08-16-2011, 01:11 PM
I think Cutler is going to have a tough year with that Offensive Line. Its looking worse than last season, and I didn't think that was possible.

Didnt they lose their starting center?

Northman
08-16-2011, 01:12 PM
I think Aaron Rodgers is better than Cutler, Top.


Yea, certainly at this point and time. And Aaron has had his fair share of bad Oline play as well.

Lonestar
08-16-2011, 01:17 PM
But Kyle gives us the best chance to win RIGHT NOW.

Forget FULL TEAM development..
we dont need to develop the QB position...
we have no questions to answer about 2012...

we have KYLE!

At least for the next 4 months.

Playoffs here we come!

NO ONE that is not has not recently been in Belview. thinks this is a playoff team..

Being a cronic loser begets more losing..

They know that Orton will not be ready to start day one and are hedging their bets that as the season goes on he will get closer to the promised land..

But in the mean time they are not going to tank the season and create even more losing attitude.. will they win more games with Orton from what I see right now the folks that count think so..

Lonestar
08-16-2011, 01:23 PM
:lol:and you do!

Yeah, Jay is gone never to come back and is extremely happy to be with his lifelong dream team but the question of how things went down....well, it'll always be speculative until the truth comes out by all parties involved. I'm not too proud to admit being wrong but until then I believe the way I do and you believe the way you do.

With all this said, why do you give Jay so much love and leeway but are quick to give up on Tebow and can't stand that people believe in him?

great response to this tripe..

everyone that was not haivng a bromance with the guy knows he was and probably still is a head case..

the last SAN game in 08 proved just how easy he was to get to..Rivers owned him..and lately him ditching his hottie fiance. Well if that is not being a head case was is..


time to move on to current QB lets
:focus:

Ravage!!!
08-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Didnt they lose their starting center?

Yeah, and that was one of the very best.

Although, I think they got a decent one for his replacement out of Seattle? not sure. But when the OL is already horrendous, losing the best player from that unit is just going to get someone killed.