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08-14-2011, 03:35 PM
Denver Broncos Believe in Kyle Orton

By Bill Williamson

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- It is obvious if you spend any time at the Denver Broncos’ training camp that the quarterback situation is the furthest thing from the team’s mind as it prepares to host Oakland on ESPN’s "Monday Night Football" on Sept. 12 in the season opener.

The Broncos have plenty of preparation to do, but it is clear the team feels it is set at quarterback with Kyle Orton.

I talked to some players who say that, as far as they are concerned, Orton is the unquestioned starter of the team. And nothing should change. It appeared the team would give second-year quarterback Tim Tebow a chance to take over when Denver tried to trade Orton to the Miami Dolphins in late July. The deal stalled when Orton couldn’t agree to a contract with the Dolphins.(Rest of article here: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/30567/broncos-believe-in-kyle-orton)


It appears the "quarterback controversy" is over in the locker room . . .

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chazoe60
08-14-2011, 03:44 PM
I wonder if they'll believe in him next year when he's playing for another team?

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08-14-2011, 03:45 PM
Kyle is playing for the Denver Broncos now, and the team believes in him now.

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silkamilkamonico
08-14-2011, 03:52 PM
I'm glad someone believes in him, because the countless times he's failed when we needed a QB to step up is the reason why the general fanbase doesn't.

I wonder what the locker rooms excuse will be when Denver is losing games in the 4th quarter this year and were getting poor play from the one position we need great play at when it counts.

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 04:09 PM
Like I said, it appears most of our lockerroom isn't smart enough to know the difference and all they know is losing at the NFL level. Aside from a few of our good players and veteran leaders we need to clean house even more.

Orton is gone next year and he will be benched this year. Mark it down.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:10 PM
Kyle is playing for the Denver Broncos now, and the team believes in him now.

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He's not really playing "for" the Broncos as much as he's playing for himself. As a matter of fact, he's playing against Denver. The guy drops at the slightest hint of pressure, which, of course, doesn't really hurt his stats. It hurts the team, but that's Denver's problem. He just needs to worry about what his stat happy, contract seeking WR and his coach thinks. No one else matters.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 04:17 PM
Like I said, it appears most of our lockerroom isn't smart enough to know the difference and all they know is losing at the NFL level. Aside from a few of our good players and veteran leaders we need to clean house even more.

Orton is gone next year and he will be benched this year. Mark it down.

Right. Those football players don't know football like you do.

Gotcha. :coffee:

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Northman
08-14-2011, 04:22 PM
Im ok that they are sold on Orton. When we dont win more than 4 or 5 games again i will revisit that article by Williamson. Then i will hunt down a few players on Twitter and give them an earful as well. They are hinging their season behind Orton, im cool with that. They best ass make the playoffs since he is the best chance to win. Anything less is unacceptable....yet again.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-14-2011, 04:26 PM
Unfortunately for Kyle, the fans don't and in the end, we pay the bills...

MileHighCrew
08-14-2011, 04:28 PM
maybe the FO belives in Andrew Luck and Orton is the key to that goal

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:30 PM
Unfortunately for Kyle, the fans don't and in the end, we pay the bills...

When games stop being sold out, you might have a point.

Bowlen pays the bills and Fox makes the decisions on who plays. Thankfully.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 04:31 PM
Unfortunately for Kyle, the fans don't and in the end, we pay the bills...

Yup, when they reach the end of the fifteen to twenty thousand on the
waiting list, that will be it . . .

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HORSEPOWER 56
08-14-2011, 04:31 PM
Right. Those football players don't know football like you do.

Gotcha. :coffee:

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The best things to happen to Kyle Orton were the lockout and McDaniels being fired. Both combined to gave him a leg up to stay the starter. It's fine, maybe he'll do well, but where are the excuses going to come from when he can't get it done this year? New coaching staff? New offense? Bad defense? No running game? Bad O-line? Those pesky high ankle sprains?

What was his excuse on the first drive of the game when the running game carried him to the 1 yard line? 0/3 in the redzone? 2/6 overall? He had one nice pass to Decker followed by a check down... and? When do we get to see a real QB play? How many excuses are enough?

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08-14-2011, 04:33 PM
The best things to happen to Kyle Orton were the lockout and McDaniels being fired. Both combined to gave him a leg up to stay the starter. It's fine, maybe he'll do well, but where are the excuses going to come from when he can't get it done this year? New coaching staff? New offense? Bad defense? No running game? Bad O-line? Those pesky high ankle sprains?

What was his excuse on the first drive of the game? 0/3 in the redzone? 2/6 overall? He had one nice pass to Decker followed by a check down... and? When do we get to see a real QB play? How many excuses are enough?

That's it. Don't worry about an objective analysis. Just blame Orton.

Let's just keep using that "excuses" tag.

Typical. :coffee:

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MileHighCrew
08-14-2011, 04:33 PM
When games stop being sold out, you might have a point.

Bowlen pays the bills and Fox makes the decisions on who plays. Thankfully.

that stadium looked pretty empty lots last season

Northman
08-14-2011, 04:34 PM
When games stop being sold out, you might have a point.



Dont worry, more poor play and less wins will eventually lead to that. The fans wont settle for 4-5 wins seasons for long.

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:35 PM
When games stop being sold out, you might have a point.

Bowlen pays the bills and Fox makes the decisions on who plays. Thankfully.

that stadium looked pretty empty lots last season

Don't worry, those seats were still paid for and revenue sharing takes care of the rest.

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 04:37 PM
Dont worry, more poor play and less wins will eventually lead to that. The fans wont settle for 4-5 wins seasons for long.

Happened last year, will probably happen this year if Orton remains the starter. The fans just don't support him and he doesn't inspire anyone.

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:37 PM
Dont worry, more poor play and less wins will eventually lead to that. The fans wont settle for 4-5 wins seasons for long.

Yup, and thankfully, they hired football people to make those decisions, not Lou from Littleton (great dude, btw, I just don't want fans running the team).

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Don't worry, those seats were still paid for and revenue sharing takes care of the rest.

Yeah but it still reflects poorly on the whole organization, especially the guy you're thankful is paying the bills. For Bowlen to lose the fanbase is an embarrassment on different levels.

dogfish
08-14-2011, 04:39 PM
ahh, tops. . . .

:heh:


hold tight to the dream!

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:40 PM
Don't worry, those seats were still paid for and revenue sharing takes care of the rest.

Yeah but it still reflects poorly on the whole organization, especially the guy you're thankful is paying the bills. For Bowlen to lose the fanbase is an embarrassment on different levels.

Kind of like the booing during free events and before a real game even occurs reflects poorly on the fanbase, no?

Northman
08-14-2011, 04:40 PM
Yup, and thankfully, they hired football people to make those decisions, not Lou from Littleton (great dude, btw, I just don't want fans running the team).

Fans run the team indirectly whether you can accept that or not. Without them they have no team. This is why franchises end up moving or going out of business to begin with. It would be in Bowlen's best interest to understand and respect where his income comes from. So far, he and the "football" people he hired arent doing a very good job. ;)

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 04:42 PM
Yup, and thankfully, they hired football people to make those decisions, not Lou from Littleton (great dude, btw, I just don't want fans running the team).

McDaniels and Xanders are "football people" and they did an OUTSTANDING job with personnel! :laugh:

You act like football is rocket science, it's not, at all. You put too much faith in "football people"... They're the ones who draft Ryan Leaf, who give Kyle Orton a $9 MILLION extension, who keep an old Tomlinson and let a young Michael Turner walk, who give Jake Delhomme a major contract when he throws 4 interceptions in a playoff game, etc, etc, etc...

Give 1/2 the smart fans a year to prepare and they could field a team that was as competitive as the one we currently have with relative ease. It's not rocket science, it's a game.

sneakers
08-14-2011, 04:42 PM
I believe in Orton to lead us to an Ortonary 6-10 season.

Northman
08-14-2011, 04:42 PM
Kind of like the booing during free events and before a real game even occurs reflects poorly on the fanbase, no?

No, just showing their displeasure about a mediocre product.

Northman
08-14-2011, 04:43 PM
McDaniels and Xanders are "football people" and they did an OUTSTANDING job with personnel! :laugh:

You act like football is rocket science, it's not, at all. You put too much faith in "football people"... They're the ones who draft Ryan Leaf, who give Kyle Orton a $9 MILLION extension, who keep an old Tomlinson and let a young Michael Turner walk, who give Jake Delhomme a major contract when he throws 4 interceptions in a playoff game, etc, etc, etc...

Give 1/2 the smart fans a year to prepare and they could field a team that was as competitive as the one we currently have with relative ease. It's not rocket science, it's a game.

No shit right? :lol:

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 04:43 PM
I believe in Orton to lead us to an Ortonary 6-10 season.

Gosh I hope not, we need to lose more than that to secure Luck.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 04:44 PM
McDaniels and Xanders are "football people" and they did an OUTSTANDING job with personnel! :laugh:

You act like football is rocket science, it's not, at all. You put too much faith in "football people"... They're the ones who draft Ryan Leaf, who give Kyle Orton a $9 MILLION extension, who keep an old Tomlinson and let a young Michael Turner walk, who give Jake Delhomme a major contract when he throws 4 interceptions in a playoff game, etc, etc, etc...

Give 1/2 the smart fans a year to prepare and they could field a team that was as competitive as the one we currently have with relative ease. It's not rocket science, it's a game.

I think the likes of this post is what MO is referring to when he says he's
glad fans don't make decisions . . . :coffee:

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MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:44 PM
Fans run the team indirectly whether you can accept that or not. Without them they have no team. This is why franchises end up moving or going out of business to begin with. It would be in Bowlen's best interest to understand and respect where his income comes from. So far, he and the "football" people he hired arent doing a very good job. ;)

What a joke. They haven't even played a game, and they've had four losing seasons in 30 years. What reflects poorly is the piss-poor attitude of the fans. I'm not embarrassed of the team right now. I'm embarrassed about something else.

Nomad
08-14-2011, 04:45 PM
Gosh I hope not, we need to lose more than that to secure Luck.

You better do something about Cincy and a couple other teams because I believe they already have a head start in the "suck for Luck race"!:lol:

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:45 PM
What a joke. They haven't even played a game, and they've had four losing seasons in 30 years. What reflects poorly is the piss-poor attitude of the fans. I'm not embarrassed of the team right now. I'm embarrassed about something else.

Good. Go find a different team then.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-14-2011, 04:47 PM
That's it. Don't worry about an objective analysis. Just blame Orton.

Let's just keep using that "excuses" tag.

Typical. :coffee:

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Objective? Did he not throw 3 incomplete passes after being 1st and goal from the 1? Whose fault is it? Was there instant pressure and he couldn't escape it? No. He just threw the ball away 3 straight times (twice to Lloyd hoping that he would just bail him out no matter how poor the throws) and we ended up with a FG.

I'm being objective as hell. The running game got him to the 1, they gave him the ball and told him to score and he blew it... par for the course with Kyle.

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:47 PM
What a joke. They haven't even played a game, and they've had four losing seasons in 30 years. What reflects poorly is the piss-poor attitude of the fans. I'm not embarrassed of the team right now. I'm embarrassed about something else.

Good. Go find a different team then.

LOL. Good come back. Continue on with that class attitude.

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 04:47 PM
I think the likes of this post is what MO is referring to when he says he's
glad fans don't make decisions . . . :coffee:

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Well, like you, I'm glad he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. :laugh:

How is Orton's 3rd down and redzone play looking again? :laugh:

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:50 PM
I think the likes of this post is what MO is referring to when he says he's
glad fans don't make decisions . . . :coffee:

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What are you talking about, or do you even know?! He shot down your stupid comment and gave more than ample support to back up his point in the form of examples. And then you come back with the same point he just shot down. It's like he took one of the tires off your bike but you're still going to try to ride it.

It's hard to believe some people are this remedial.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 04:50 PM
Well, like you, I'm glad he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

I understand.

It is foolishness to one, when a point another has made has flown way over one's head . . .

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Northman
08-14-2011, 04:51 PM
What a joke. They haven't even played a game, and they've had four losing seasons in 30 years. What reflects poorly is the piss-poor attitude of the fans. I'm not embarrassed of the team right now. I'm embarrassed about something else.

For me it has nothing to do about the pre-season game. I expected that going off what ive seen the last 2 years. Fans get piss poor attitudes when teams continue to ignore glaring problems (i.e not taking care of the DT position, not upgrading the QB position, etc). Sure, we can say they are just now starting to address some of it but not all of it. You act like the fans cant be displeased about anything which is BS to begin with.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:51 PM
LOL. Good come back. Continue on with that class attitude.

Speaking of continuing on. Why are you still here if you're so disgusted by Broncos fans?

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 04:52 PM
I understand.

It is foolishness to one, when a point another has made has flown way over one's head . . .

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I wouldn't say it's over my head, more like it was a ridiculous point that most remotely intelligent people would laugh at. :laugh:

Northman
08-14-2011, 04:52 PM
Speaking of continuing on. Why are you still here if you're so disgusted by Broncos fans?

Because he is obviously better than everyone else. Didnt you get the memo?

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:53 PM
For me it has nothing to do about the pre-season game. I expected that going off what ive seen the last 2 years. Fans get piss poor attitudes when teams continue to ignore glaring problems (i.e not taking care of the DT position, not upgrading the QB position, etc). Sure, we can say they are just now starting to address some of it but not all of it. You act like the fans cant be displeased about anything which is BS to begin with.

Don't argue with him. This is one savvy dude. He's smart enough to point out that Bowlen pays the bills...like no one already knew that Bowlen owns the team. Useful.

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 04:54 PM
For me it has nothing to do about the pre-season game. I expected that going off what ive seen the last 2 years. Fans get piss poor attitudes when teams continue to ignore glaring problems (i.e not taking care of the DT position, not upgrading the QB position, etc). Sure, we can say they are just now starting to address some of it but not all of it. You act like the fans cant be displeased about anything which is BS to begin with.

It's gone well beyond expressing displeasure at this point. It's starting to sound like a bunch of children fighting for the conch shell.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 04:54 PM
Objective? Did he not throw 3 incomplete passes after being 1st and goal from the 1? Whose fault is it? Was there instant pressure and he couldn't escape it? No. He just threw the ball away 3 straight times (twice to Lloyd hoping that he would just bail him out no matter how poor the throws) and we ended up with a FG.

I'm being objective as hell. The running game got him to the 1, they gave him the ball and told him to score and he blew it... par for the course with Kyle.

I guess it never occurred to you that two of those incompletions were
intentional throwaways? I guess when the pocket collapsed Orton should
have just stayed right there?

You act as if I never saw the game. In fact, I ran the first drive four times.
I know what happened. Please don't try to twist it on me . . .

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Northman
08-14-2011, 04:56 PM
Don't argue with him. This is one savvy dude. He's smart enough to point out that Bowlen pays the bills...like no one already knew that Bowlen owns the team. Useful.

Nah, i dont have a problem with MO. But he is way off here if he thinks fans should just continue to sit by while this team continues to make a mockery of itself. Ive been a Bronco fan for over 30 years and ive seen the good times and bad so why we have people trying to challenge our fanhood is just weak sauce and means you cant argue your point intelligently and on point. When you resort to that kiddie bullshit you've already lost the arguement.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't say it's over my head, more like it was a ridiculous point that most remotely intelligent people would laugh at. :laugh:

You're probably wasting your time. You've already won the argument the same way someone would by proving the world is round. He's still probably trying to tell people the earth is flat.

Northman
08-14-2011, 04:59 PM
It's gone well beyond expressing displeasure at this point. It's starting to sound like a bunch of children fighting for the conch shell.

Not really. The displeasure is about the same thing MO. Its not like we are moaning about fifty different things. Most fans here want to rebuild and move on and build something great for the future. But having pieces here that hold us back from that concerns us, that is all. If we cant express it here or for some at practice and regular games then where? When is a better time to be disgruntled? After 5 more years if it doesnt improve? Whats the time limit man?

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 05:03 PM
Well, judging from the posts I've seen, that would not be you . . .

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Isn't that a personal attack? Now, were I YOU, I would be whining to the moderators and telling everyone that I am leaving the forum, etc, etc.

But I will just do this instead. Thanks! :laugh::laugh:

Northman
08-14-2011, 05:03 PM
Isn't that a personal attack? Now, were I YOU, I would be whining to the moderators and telling everyone that I am leaving the forum, etc, etc.

But I will just do this instead. Thanks! :laugh::laugh:

He doesnt attack posters man.....he said so.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Nah, i dont have a problem with MO. But he is way off here if he thinks fans should just continue to sit by while this team continues to make a mockery of itself. Ive been a Bronco fan for over 30 years and ive seen the good times and bad so why we have people trying to challenge our fanhood is just weak sauce and means you cant argue your point intelligently and on point. When you resort to that kiddie bullshit you've already lost the arguement.

Im not going to argue with that. But, for what it's worth, my comment to you was mainly a vehicle to say that he makes worthless posts. "Bowlen pays the bills"...how brilliant. Now since MO has such a remedial understanding of the world, let's review the whole process for his benefit. Yes Bowlen pays the bills. It's like "but now, kiddies, where does Bowlen get the money to pay the bills?" Some people are so remedial that it's mind numbing. It's like you make a comment and then someone makes some remedial comment in response. You have to take two steps back to address it but they think it's brilliant. And then he actually claims to be embarrassed of other fans. It's like, "dude, why don't you get off the short bus first!"

Timmy!
08-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Oh look, a pissing contest. FFS. This forum is becoming a sad joke. *cue fan police*

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Northman
08-14-2011, 05:05 PM
Oh look, a pissing contest. FFS. This forum is becoming a sad joke. *cue fan police*

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I blame Top.

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 05:05 PM
I blame Top.

I blame McDaniels.

Timmy!
08-14-2011, 05:07 PM
I blame Top.

Lol! he's a good scapegoat.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 05:08 PM
It's gone well beyond expressing displeasure at this point. It's starting to sound like a bunch of children fighting for the conch shell.

Not really. The displeasure is about the same thing MO. Its not like we are moaning about fifty different things. Most fans here want to rebuild and move on and build something great for the future. But having pieces here that hold us back from that concerns us, that is all. If we cant express it here or for some at practice and regular games then where? When is a better time to be disgruntled? After 5 more years if it doesnt improve? Whats the time limit man?

There are lots of ways to voice displeasure. There are lots of ways other than booing at free practices and scrimmages and namecalling to express your displeasure.

Neither of those two things have you done, so I guess my problem really isn't with you.

It's a brand new season for ****'s sake, in a league where teams bounce up and down every year. I watched every Chiefs game the last eight years and they haven't had a quarterback as good as Orton (Green is debateable), and currently don't have a quarterback as good as Orton and they won the damn division last year. So don't tell me it isn't possible. I'm personally sick of the absolutely continuous bitching before a game is even played. I'd rather win a few games this year and try to find a good quarterback in the draft then tank a season with Tebow at the helm, just to hope to get Luck.

Gabbart looks like he might be a star, and I believe he was taken 12th...

topscribe
08-14-2011, 05:09 PM
Isn't that a personal attack? Now, were I YOU, I would be whining to the moderators and telling everyone that I am leaving the forum, etc, etc.

But I will just do this instead. Thanks! :laugh::laugh:
You're right. That was uncalled for.

I apologize . . . to myself, that is, for lowering myself.

Post will be deleted.

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dogfish
08-14-2011, 05:12 PM
It's starting to sound like a bunch of children fighting for the conch shell.

and i'm about to steal your glasses. . . .


:welcome:

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 05:21 PM
Im not going to argue with that. But, for what it's worth, my comment to you was mainly a vehicle to say that he makes worthless posts. "Bowlen pays the bills"...how brilliant. Now since MO has such a remedial understanding of the world, let's review the whole process for his benefit. Yes Bowlen pays the bills. It's like "but now, kiddies, where does Bowlen get the money to pay the bills?" Some people are so remedial that it's mind numbing. It's like you make a comment and then someone makes some remedial comment in response. You have to take two steps back to address it but they think it's brilliant. And then he actually claims to be embarrassed of other fans. It's like, "dude, why don't you get off the short bus first!"

Certainly someone as intelligent as you claim to be would know that ticket sales in the NFL do not make or break a franchise, and frankly don't really have an impact on financial decisions made by teams, especially one with a 15 year waiting list and sell outs back to the 70s.

If you were at all paying attenting during the lockout, what revenues were being worried about and fought over? Not ticket sales.

So, before you call that a remedial argument, and pull out your holier than thou attitude, you might want to do a little research.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 05:36 PM
Certainly someone as intelligent as you claim to be would know that ticket sales in the NFL do not make or break a franchise, and frankly don't really have an impact on financial decisions made by teams, especially one with a 15 year waiting list and sell outs back to the 70s.

If you were at all paying attenting during the lockout, what revenues were being worried about and fought over? Not ticket sales.

So, before you call that a remedial argument, and pull out your holier than thou attitude, you might want to do a little research.

Yeah, I know there's revenue sharing but the people NOT filling the stadium when they normally would are a part of what goes into the revenue sharing. The NFL has a core audeince and that includes people who both go to games and watch at home. Both are important. Even though their biggest source of revenue is from TV contracts, the same thing is still driving it, which is a healthy core audience. When Bowlen loses the fanbase, the other owners can't be that happy, especially in a place like Denver where it has always been robust. Bowlen's handling of everything the past three years has been one tragic gaffe after another. The other owners have to be wondering if he should sell because he can't appear competent. The NFL (namely it's owners) are trying to grow their sport and enhance brand appeal, and then you have Bowlen in Denver hemorrhaging fans because of incompetence. Whether you're talking about people watching games on TV or people going to the stadium, it's not good either way.

Also, it wasn't that long ago the Broncos worth put them in the top 5. This was according to Forbes. One of the main reasons the Broncos were so highly valued (according to their analysis) was because they have such a stalwart fanbase. So, if Bowlen has lost that, it says more about Bowlen than it does the fans.

Lancane
08-14-2011, 05:41 PM
Certainly someone as intelligent as you claim to be would know that ticket sales in the NFL do not make or break a franchise, and frankly don't really have an impact on financial decisions made by teams, especially one with a 15 year waiting list and sell outs back to the 70s.

If you were at all paying attenting during the lockout, what revenues were being worried about and fought over? Not ticket sales.

So, before you call that a remedial argument, and pull out your holier than thou attitude, you might want to do a little research.

So what you're saying is that Minnesota is not in fiscal trouble due to lack of revenue from ticket sales, the same with Jacksonville and San Diego? Though the NFLN and other respected national media outlets have pointed to that exact issue as the reason of concern for all three organizations and reasons why they're favorites of the move to Los Angeles. Sheesh, well thanks...I'm glad to know that I can not listen to the NFLN and actually trust what they report about teams in the NFL anymore...saves me time. I guess I'm screwed though, I mean ESPN reported much the same, well no more sports networks for news I guess.

:coffee:

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 05:46 PM
(Rest of article here: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/30567/broncos-believe-in-kyle-orton)


It appears the "quarterback controversy" is over in the locker room . . .

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It's kind of funny now Williamson is worth quoting here but every time you disagree with him he's a piece of ish.

Bugs Baloney
08-14-2011, 05:46 PM
Right. Those football players don't know football like you do.

Gotcha. :coffee:

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we know what we see, and we see garbage....:tsk:

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 05:49 PM
I'm glad someone believes in him, because the countless times he's failed when we needed a QB to step up is the reason why the general fanbase doesn't.

I wonder what the locker rooms excuse will be when Denver is losing games in the 4th quarter this year and were getting poor play from the one position we need great play at when it counts.

Excuses put away for safe keeping:

1. High ankle sprains

2. Bruised ribs

3. No running game.

4. An offensive line that is like a sieve.

5. Terrible defense.

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Im ok that they are sold on Orton. When we dont win more than 4 or 5 games again i will revisit that article by Williamson. Then i will hunt down a few players on Twitter and give them an earful as well. They are hinging their season behind Orton, im cool with that. They best ass make the playoffs since he is the best chance to win. Anything less is unacceptable....yet again.

I expect them to get behind whomever the starting quarterback is. But if that quarterback can't get the job they have no reason to cry if he's benched.

shank
08-14-2011, 05:54 PM
Excuses put away for safe keeping:

1. High ankle sprains

2. Bruised ribs

3. No running game.

4. An offensive line that is like a sieve.

5. Terrible defense.

6. everyone is stupid/illogical/terrible but me and kyle orton and soggy waffles.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-14-2011, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I know there's revenue sharing but the people NOT filling the stadium when they normally would are a part of what goes into the revenue sharing. The NFL has a core audeince and that includes people who both go to games and watch at home. Both are important. Even though their biggest source of revenue is from TV contracts, the same thing is still driving it, which is a healthy core audience.

Also, it wasn't that long ago the Broncos worth put them in the top 5. This was according to Forbes. One of the main reasons the Broncos were so highly valued (according to their analysis) was because they have such a stalwart fanbase. So, if Bowlen has lost that, it says more about Bowlen than it does the fans.

Not to mention, but those TV deals are directly related to ticket sales. No sellout = blackout. How much money are the TV stations making when the games get blacked out?

People can pull the BS "there's a waiting list for season tickets" all they want, but not every seat is available for season tickets, nor will they ever be. It's those single-game tickets that won't be bought if the team stinks and isn't entertaining. No matter what you want to believe, Bowlen knows that for every empty seat, he's losing $, not just in ticket prices but in parking, concessions, and merchandise.

We shall see.

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 05:56 PM
ahh, tops. . . .

:heh:


hold tight to the dream!

http://youtu.be/41P8UxneDJE

Lancane
08-14-2011, 06:01 PM
Someone remind me of why McDaniels was fired?

I thought it was because the pressure from a very unsatisfied fanbase who were fed up with all his antics and media sources began to report it more and more as it worsened, no? Or was he really fired for Spy-gate II, which few believe being the reason, only the straw that allowed Bowlen to rid himself of the man. A stadium with many empty seats was prelude to what may come, but Bowlen within a 24 hour period contradicted himself between news sources regarding McDaniels future. When McDaniels was fired, Ellis nor Bowlen said it was because of what Josh had done himself, they kept mentioning the fans, the dissatisfaction of the fanbase and so on.

I think the fans have more sway with Bowlen then some on here yet realize...even more so in a weak economy.

;)

EastCoastBronco
08-14-2011, 06:02 PM
I have a memory.
It works very well.

I don't believe in Kyle Orton.

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 06:02 PM
Yeah, I know there's revenue sharing but the people NOT filling the stadium when they normally would are a part of what goes into the revenue sharing. The NFL has a core audeince and that includes people who both go to games and watch at home. Both are important. Even though their biggest source of revenue is from TV contracts, the same thing is still driving it, which is a healthy core audience.

Also, it wasn't that long ago the Broncos worth put them in the top 5. This was according to Forbes. One of the main reasons the Broncos were so highly valued (according to their analysis) was because they have such a stalwart fanbase. So, if Bowlen has lost that, it says more about Bowlen than it does the fans.

Not to mention, but those TV deals are directly related to ticket sales. No sellout = blackout. How much money are the TV stations making when the games get blacked out?

People can pull the BS "there's a waiting list for season tickets" all they want, but not every seat is available for season tickets, nor will they ever be. It's those single-game tickets that won't be bought if the team stinks and isn't entertaining. No matter what you want to believe, Bowlen knows that for every empty seat, he's losing $, not just in ticket prices but in parking, concessions, and merchandise.

We shall see.

Blackouts don;t affect revenue from the TV contract. The TV contract is already signed. The only people punished by a blackout are the fans. Not the owners.

Medford Bronco
08-14-2011, 06:17 PM
Dont worry, more poor play and less wins will eventually lead to that. The fans wont settle for 4-5 wins seasons for long.

The team will not believe in 28% completion on third down conversions either.

What is so great about this guy? Stats. Stats are for losers. Brian Griese has a better QB rating with Denver than Elway did so it means nothing.

I would rather take a chance on Tebow because this is a rebuilding year anyways. Just my 2 cents. Not that I know anything lol:lol:

Medford Bronco
08-14-2011, 06:26 PM
Excuses put away for safe keeping:


3. No running game.

5. Terrible defense.

The Broncos could have had John Elway circa 1997-98 last year with our horrid defense and he would have struggled to get to 8-8

That is our main problem.. We need to get better to have a chance to be improved

Slick
08-14-2011, 07:43 PM
It's gone well beyond expressing displeasure at this point. It's starting to sound like a bunch of children fighting for the conch shell.



I have plenty of conchas for everyone, don't worry.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-14-2011, 07:51 PM
Blackouts don;t affect revenue from the TV contract. The TV contract is already signed. The only people punished by a blackout are the fans. Not the owners.

Umm, why do those TV stations give those big contracts to the league? So they can get viewers to watch the games and charge more to advertisers for commercial time during the game which means they make more money. When they blackout a game and have to show reruns of the Golden Girls, they aren't making that money back and getting the return they expect on their investment.

How long do you expect that to last before they stop giving the big contracts to the team? Any way you slice it, if it was no big deal then cities like Minnesota, Buffalo, Jacksonville, and SD wouldn't be in jeopardy of losing their franchise.

TXBRONC
08-14-2011, 08:00 PM
I have plenty of conchas for everyone, don't worry.

Cool what would you charge me for one!

Slick
08-14-2011, 08:05 PM
Speaking of tickets... The last couple of seasons there were several home games where it seemed like an absolute inv asion of other teams colors in the stands. That can't look good from the owners suite.

M0 just come out and say it. The football conversation on this board is suffering because it seems like there is only one topic.

I'm guilty of it too, but he's right.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Speaking of tickets... The last couple of seasons there were several home games where it seemed like an absolute inv asion of other teams colors in the stands. That can't look good from the owners suite.

M0 just come out and say it. The football conversation on this board is suffering because it seems like there is only one topic.

I'm guilty of it too, but he's right.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I need your commitment to Dec. 11 ASAP

Slick
08-14-2011, 08:16 PM
I'll pm you tomorrow when I am on a computer. Its complicated.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Lancane
08-14-2011, 08:27 PM
Umm, why do those TV stations give those big contracts to the league? So they can get viewers to watch the games and charge more to advertisers for commercial time during the game which means they make more money. When they blackout a game and have to show reruns of the Golden Girls, they aren't making that money back and getting the return they expect on their investment.

How long do you expect that to last before they stop giving the big contracts to the team? Any way you slice it, if it was no big deal then cities like Minnesota, Buffalo, Jacksonville, and SD wouldn't be in jeopardy of losing their franchise.

Let us not forget as well HP, that the league has the right to step in regarding issues regarding ownership of any and all teams associated with the league itself. Hence the reason that Shadid Khan does not own the St. Louis Rams and Kroenke was instead allowed to purchase the controlling stock of the team. According to the legal rules and regulations of the league, Kroenke's purchase should have been denied because of his ownership of other professional sports teams, instead they held the purchase until he forwarded controlling stock of those other same said franchises to his spouse and children. Denver is considered a top earning venue, I don't believe for a minute that the league wouldn't get involved if suddenly the organization took massive drops across the board fiscally, especially if it's due to fan negligence rather then a lack of economical stimulus.

As I've stated before, the whole Kroenke-Bowlen trade talks had some substance, only because it's well known that Kroenke wants to own a Colorado based NFL Franchise; Kroenke Sports Enterprises owns the Denver Nuggets, Colorado Avalanche, Colorado Rapids, Colorado Mammoth and the Arsenal F.C. in Northern London. I don't think for a minute that the league would not try and force a move, IE trade or sale in order to save a venue of such value, especially when one looks to the number of sellout crowds and lack in the number of blackouts for the region in regards to the same said venue. I think Silk was the one who brought up the league's enforcement regulations in regards to the league forcing a team to move or be sold - that's why the Chargers are thinking about moving to Los Angeles because they're having a slight fiscal hit, whereas the Vikings, Jaguars and Bills are in more dire straights. Hell, that's why the NFL is considering going international and getting a team in England, it's a huge venue when you consider that the overall size of London is larger then any US city, let alone that several smaller cities skirt the city as well.

At the end of the day it's all about money, fans are the lifeline of the league in terms of fiscal intake and overall growth...and trust me, they do give a damn, no matter what some want to believe.

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 08:38 PM
I'm so glad none of us run the broncos. We'd make the bengals look like a genius organization.

Lancane
08-14-2011, 08:42 PM
I'm so glad none of us run the broncos. We'd make the bengals look like a genius organization.

When you look at the media circus that seems to be steadfast at Dove Valley's doorstep and likewise the horrific joke we had become because of McDaniels' antics, I can honestly say even the dumbest fan could do no worse.

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 08:48 PM
At the end of the day it's all about money, fans are the lifeline of the league in terms of fiscal intake and overall growth...and trust me, they do give a damn, no matter what some want to believe.

In some respects, yes. But, mostly, tv advertising that propels the tv contracts drives the revenue. They have more power than the fans. Tv revenue is the driving monetary force. Not ticket sales. Not merchandising. So as long people watch the games the league wins. And remember, advertisers don't care if fans watch the games. They just want people watching.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 08:50 PM
When you look at the media circus that seems to be steadfast at Dove Valley's doorstep and likewise the horrific joke we had become because of McDaniels' antics, I can honestly say even the dumbest fan could do no worse.

Um . . . McDaniels is gone . . .

-----

Lancane
08-14-2011, 08:51 PM
Um . . . McDaniels is gone . . .

-----

Is the damage he created? ;)

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 08:51 PM
When you look at the media circus that seems to be steadfast at Dove Valley's doorstep and likewise the horrific joke we had become because of McDaniels' antics, I can honestly say even the dumbest fan could do no worse.

Two thoughts:
1. The media doesn't run the team either.
2. The broncos were a joke before mcd arrived.

Addendum:
Orton and mcd are easy scapegoats. They're not the only reasons for failure.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 08:55 PM
In some respects, yes. But, mostly, tv advertising that propels the tv contracts drives the revenue. They have more power than the fans. Tv revenue is the driving monetary force. Not ticket sales. Not merchandising. So as long people watch the games the league wins. And remember, advertisers don't care if fans watch the games. They just want people watching.

But once again, this goes back to the NFL's core group of fans. It's amazing the things that need to be explained.

As has been stated over and over by myself and others, it's good for the NFL to have more fans than less fans. It's what drives the whole thing. And when one of the stalwart franchises starts losing fans, while the sport is very popular, you know that someone made some big mistakes and you also know the other owners aren't happy with Bowlen since they're all partners in this.

No matter how poorly you grasp economics, at least wrap your mind around the fact that losing fans is bad and more fans is good. And if that's not too taxing, also try to understand the concept that fans, whether at home or in the stadium, are what's driving the revenue.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 09:00 PM
Two thoughts:
1. The media doesn't run the team either.
2. The broncos were a joke before mcd arrived.

Addendum:
Orton and mcd are easy scapegoats. They're not the only reasons for failure.

You can't even grasp the concept that it's bad for the league to lose fans and now you're going to claim to know what's what in terms of when things went bad in Denver.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 09:08 PM
Is the damage he created? ;)

Are you saying that the dumbest fan can do better than the present FO?

-----

Lancane
08-14-2011, 09:10 PM
Two thoughts:
1. The media doesn't run the team either.
2. The broncos were a joke before mcd arrived.

Addendum:
Orton and mcd are easy scapegoats. They're not the only reasons for failure.

Two Facts:

1. The Media effects an organization, the fact that the media got whiff of Spy-gate II proves as much.

2. That is opinionative, because most people in and around the league disagree with that assessment.

:coffee:

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 09:10 PM
Are you saying that the dumbest fan can do better than the present FO?

-----

Whether he is or not, at least he's not arguing that a sub 60 QB rating is good.

MOtorboat
08-14-2011, 09:17 PM
But once again, this goes back to the NFL's core group of fans. It's amazing the things that need to be explained.

As has been stated over and over by myself and others, it's good for the NFL to have more fans than less fans. It's what drives the whole thing. And when one of the stalwart franchises starts losing fans, while the sport is very popular, you know that someone made some big mistakes and you also know the other owners aren't happy with Bowlen since they're all partners in this.

No matter how poorly you grasp economics, at least wrap your mind around the fact that losing fans is bad and more fans is good. And if that's not too taxing, also try to understand the concept that fans, whether at home or in the stadium, are what's driving the revenue.

You are kidding, right? You are actually going to argue that Denver fans, despite selling out for more than 40 years and having a 15-year waiting list is somehow going to influence the starting quarterback position by not going to games, after just one season of losing?

What an ill-informed post. I thought you were intelligent...guess I was wrong.

Lancane
08-14-2011, 09:17 PM
Are you saying that the dumbest fan can do better than the present FO?

-----

I'm saying that if you were to dissect the current front office, you'd realize that Xanders has been a part of only one or two front offices that ever had a winning season, most of the time the teams they fielded were not that good. Elway is new to the whole ordeal and it will take time to get really good at his own job within the organization. Fox's hands were rather tied in Carolina, but some of his choices were massively suspect, the fans began to turn on him and he was considered mediocre by the time he was done, he only had three winning seasons and a lot of the dissatisfaction (comically) came because of his loyalty to a certain quarterback.

If you look at the experience of the front office, it's no wonder people question the decisions they make at this point, because they have much to prove and are saddled with the damage that has lingered on from McDaniels, including an very cautious fanbase that has trust issues with the Organization and those running it beyond just them. Look at how much Xanders is disliked or Ellis for that matter, look at the disdain their is for keeping McCoy or how Bowlen is considered senile now...

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 09:18 PM
You can't even grasp the concept that it's bad for the league to lose fans and now you're going to claim to know what's what in terms of when things went bad in Denver.

ugh. i gave you too much credit; assuming you could understand subtext.

advertisers/TV executives don't care about fans. they care about viewers. and there are exponentially more "viewers" in america than there are dedicated football "fans." therefore, it's more important to market, target and appease an average tv "viewer" than it is to appease a "fan." it's all about numbers for ratings, which drive ad rates which drive the tv contracts which drive the nfl franchises the "fans" follow. the folly of the "fan" is that he/she assumes he/she is the reason for the team's success. the fan deserves about 6 percent of that credit, at most.


as for the downfall of the broncos, it can't be blamed entirely on mcd. yes, he made a lot of very poor personnel decisions. but he arrived at an organization that was in turmoil. shanny had ruined the roster (very shallow talent pool beyond the few stars that allowed the team to hover at mediocrity). the locker room was out of control (read some of stefan fatsis' book or articles and you get the idea the morale in the locker room was very, very low and fractured; and without a true leader). i remember mcd saying little things like the cafeteria's menu were counter intuitive (fried food, not enough healthful options)to a healthy environment. taken as a whole, it was a mess.


the broncos team has been sliding downhill for a while, mcd just sent it into an avalanche. but the truth, i believe, is that shanny would have had the same thing happen had he stayed. the broncos would have been only marginally better (6-10) if shanny never left. so much focus is on the QB position, but the problem with this team has been depth. the broncos' second and third string players have been bad for a long time; and so have the team's special teams squads, not a coincidence.

for a reminder of this, note that the patriots signed niko koutivedes this past weekend. remember when shanny gave him a big contract and touted him as a starting linebacker? let that memory sink in a bit to remember how bad shanny's last few years in denver were. this isn't all mcd's mess, he just failed to clean any of shanny's up while he was here.

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 09:27 PM
Two Facts:

1. The Media effects an organization, the fact that the media got whiff of Spy-gate II proves as much.

2. That is opinionative, because most people in and around the league disagree with that assessment.

:coffee:

one fact:
1. the media affects the fans' perception of the organization. the media rarely affects an organization (most media are too lazy to actually dig for stories, they run with spoonfed info given to them by organizations).

one fact-ish (relying on memory here, please correct me if i'm wrong):
the spygate 2 thing wasn't broke by the media; a tipster in the broncos' organization alerted the news to bowlen/ellis. they knew before the media did.

one (more) opinion:
i think people have been laughing about the broncos for a while (darryl gaardner, maurice clarett, trying to convince the world lenny walls and roc alexander were nfl players, picking three straight CBs in the draft, etc., etc.

remember: the fan's outlook is far different than the outlook of everyone else.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 09:32 PM
ugh. i gave you too much credit; assuming you could understand subtext.

advertisers/TV executives don't care about fans. they care about viewers. and there are exponentially more "viewers" in america than there are dedicated football "fans." therefore, it's more important to market, target and appease an average tv "viewer" than it is to appease a "fan." it's all about numbers for ratings, which drive ad rates which drive the tv contracts which drive the nfl franchises the "fans" follow. the folly of the "fan" is that he/she assumes he/she is the reason for the team's success. the fan deserves about 6 percent of that credit, at most.


as for the downfall of the broncos, it can't be blamed entirely on mcd. yes, he made a lot of very poor personnel decisions. but he arrived at an organization that was in turmoil. shanny had ruined the roster (very shallow talent pool beyond the few stars that allowed the team to hover at mediocrity). the locker room was out of control (read some of stefan fatsis' book or articles and you get the idea the morale in the locker room was very, very low and fractured; and without a true leader). i remember mcd saying little things like the cafeteria's menu were counter intuitive (fried food, not enough healthful options)to a healthy environment. taken as a whole, it was a mess.


the broncos team has been sliding downhill for a while, mcd just sent it into an avalanche. but the truth, i believe, is that shanny would have had the same thing happen had he stayed. the broncos would have been only marginally better (6-10) if shanny never left. so much focus is on the QB position, but the problem with this team has been depth. the broncos' second and third string players have been bad for a long time; and so have the team's special teams squads, not a coincidence.

for a reminder of this, note that the patriots signed niko koutivedes this past weekend. remember when shanny gave him a big contract and touted him as a starting linebacker? let that memory sink in a bit to remember how bad shanny's last few years in denver were. this isn't all mcd's mess, he just failed to clean any of shanny's up while he was here.


You can be as verbose as you want. That's not going to change the fact that you've stubbed your toe on something very basic.

powderaddict
08-14-2011, 09:38 PM
I guess it never occurred to you that two of those incompletions were
intentional throwaways? I guess when the pocket collapsed Orton should
have just stayed right there?

You act as if I never saw the game. In fact, I ran the first drive four times.
I know what happened. Please don't try to twist it on me . . .

-----

I don't know what game you were watching, but maybe KO saw the same phantom pocket collapse you did but no one else saw.

1st down was a quick pass, the magical collapsing pocket never had time to set up. On one of the other throws KO had a beautiful textbook pocket and for god knows why he decided to run from that perfect pocket and throw the ball away.

You might be satisfied with 3 incomplete passes at the goal line, but I sure would like to see more.

Lancane
08-14-2011, 09:41 PM
one fact:
1. the media affects the fans' perception of the organization. the media rarely affects an organization (most media are too lazy to actually dig for stories, they run with spoonfed info given to them by organizations).

one fact-ish (relying on memory here, please correct me if i'm wrong):
the spygate 2 thing wasn't broke by the media; a tipster in the broncos' organization alerted the news to bowlen/ellis. they knew before the media did.

one (more) opinion:
i think people have been laughing about the broncos for a while (darryl gaardner, maurice clarett, trying to convince the world lenny walls and roc alexander were nfl players, picking three straight CBs in the draft, etc., etc.

remember: the fan's outlook is far different than the outlook of everyone else.

The media still has major control of mass opinionative news; E.G. what to print or not to say or the very opposite. Anyone who has read the local columnists and journalists knows that each week they're writing opinionated pieces that are indeed effected by the fanbase and the organization. How many times have we seen an article stating the Broncos need to trade Orton, then that same said reporter or columnist writes why the Broncos need to keep him. I know there is a fair level of hypocrisy on message boards, but the media outlets are far worse. And they'll continue to do it, whether it's the NFLN or ESPN, the Denver Post or some small web media company. But it does have an effect, if anyone can say that the fan perception portrayed by the media had nothing to do with McDaniels getting fired and prove it, I would be surprised.

There will always be bad choices made by an organization, no matter what light they are seen in. Look at America's Teams both old and new, look at the Chargers...I don't believe we were at the level which McDaniels brought us to, we may of had some bad issues with some additions, but McDaniels turned us into a three-ring circus and the biggest joke in the league, even bigger then the Bengals and Raiders...that's a whole new low in my book.

topscribe
08-14-2011, 09:41 PM
the broncos team has been sliding downhill for a while, mcd just sent it into an avalanche.

One of the best statements I have read on this board . . .

-----

rationalfan
08-14-2011, 09:42 PM
You can be as verbose as you want. That's not going to change the fact that you've stubbed your toe on something very basic.

i don't think i have.

you're focused on the idea of a simple concept as reality (more fans > than less fans). you're right, of course. but it's ignoring a larger truth. you're assuming that "fans" as we define them (hardcore supporters of a team) are the same currency they were 40 years ago. not true. today, people with money who support whatever you're selling are more important than "fans." that's why every owner wants a new stadium; to lure wealthy people into spending obnoxious amounts of money on luxury suites. the team doesn't care if these folks are "fans," they just want their checks to clear. if a team survived on fandom alone the raiders and cowboys would be very wealthy and very successful. they're not.

again, you're right in the concept that it's better to have more people supporting your franchise than to be against it; but you still measure it from a fan's perspective. the ideas of blinded allegiance are gone. it's all commerce.

damn this is a boring dialogue. suddenly the orton/tebow debate feels more interesting.

Agent of Orange
08-14-2011, 09:46 PM
i don't think i have.

you're focused on the idea of a simple concept as reality (more fans > than less fans). you're right, of course. but it's ignoring a larger truth. you're assuming that "fans" as we define them (hardcore supporters of a team) are the same currency they were 40 years ago. not true. today, people with money who support whatever you're selling are more important than "fans." that's why every owner wants a new stadium; to lure wealthy people into spending obnoxious amounts of money on luxury suites. the team doesn't care if these folks are "fans," they just want their checks to clear. if a team survived on fandom alone the raiders and cowboys would be very wealthy and very successful. they're not.

again, you're right in the concept that it's better to have more people supporting your franchise than to be against it; but you still measure it from a fan's perspective. the ideas of blinded allegiance are gone. it's all commerce.

damn this is a boring dialogue. suddenly the orton/tebow debate feels more interesting.


And this is also incorrect. I was talking about commerce. Whether you want to call it commerce or economics, it's all the same. And no, calling it commerce isn't going to make your gaffe different or more forgiveable. It's equally bad no matter how semantic.

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 10:37 PM
I'm so glad none of us run the broncos. We'd make the bengals look like a genius organization.

Didn't they have a better record than us last year? Speak for yourself when you pass judegment on idiocy.

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 10:39 PM
One of the best statements I have read on this board . . .

-----

Too bad his statement is incorrect. :elefant:

Shanahan had one of the youngest and most explosive offenses in the NFL when he was fired. ALL Denver had to do was address the defense, that's it, that's all, and we would be primed for playoff runs. No more difficult than that.

McDouche came in and gutted our young offense and made the defense WORSE.

Replacing young and rising stars with SCRUBS and installing a high school offense.

Lonestar
08-14-2011, 11:31 PM
Unfortunately for Kyle, the fans don't and in the end, we pay the bills...

better not tell the TV networks they are not paying the bills.

Which is the lions share of the revenue that they spend on salaries.

Lonestar
08-14-2011, 11:49 PM
Too bad his statement is incorrect. :elefant:

Shanahan had one of the youngest and most explosive offenses in the NFL when he was fired. ALL Denver had to do was address the defense, that's it, that's all, and we would be primed for playoff runs. No more difficult than that.

McDouche came in and gutted our young offense and made the defense WORSE.

Replacing young and rising stars with SCRUBS and installing a high school offense.

Pray tell what were we going to do with the aging OL the one that could not block for beans in the REDZONE..

Josh traded TWO players on offense the second year and cut two others.. taht could not hack power blocking..

Just how is that gutting "our young offense ".

man y'all are so full of your selfs it is amazing to read this trash.

Just how would they have paid for those super studs this year?

Doom, Kuper, champ, harris, jay, ts, and bm.

and then next year clady along with a few others..

money doth not grow on trees..


All of a sudden we are in worse condition salary cap than we could have possibly handled..
Being the highest paid WR, DE, QB in the league..that is what they all wanted

Have anyone of you planned more than fifteen minutes in advance?.

and BTW that 08 offense was #3 between the 20's also and #16 in scoring..

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2008&seasonType=REG

TOP 28.09

and the miserable team last year

#13 in total offense number 19 in scoring..

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=TIME_OF_POSS_SECONDS_PER_GAME_AVG&tabSeq=2&season=2008&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=true&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true

TOP 28.44

FWIW the starting 08 OL did not miss a game all year..

which can't be said about 10.

Reasons for failure..

BroncoStud
08-14-2011, 11:57 PM
Pray tell what were we going to do with the aging OL the one that could not block for beans in the REDZONE..

Josh traded TWO players on offense the second year and cut two others.. taht could not hack power blocking..

Just how is that gutting "our young offense ".

man y'all are so full of your selfs it is amazing to read this trash.

Just how would they have paid for those super studs this year?

Doom, Kuper, champ, harris, jay, ts, and bm.

and then next year clady along with a few others..

money doth not grow on trees..


All of a sudden we are in worse condition salary cap than we could have possibly handled..
Being the highest paid WR, DE, QB in the league..that is what they all wanted

Have anyone of you planned more than fifteen minutes in advance?.

and BTW that 08 offense was #3 between the 20's also and #16 in scoring..

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2008&seasonType=REG

TOP 28.09

and the miserable team last year

#13 in total offense number 19 in scoring..

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=TIME_OF_POSS_SECONDS_PER_GAME_AVG&tabSeq=2&season=2008&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=true&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true

TOP 28.44

FWIW the starting 08 OL did not miss a game all year..

which can't be said about 10.

Reasons for failure..

Well, perhaps not paying Orton his $9 MILLION this year might have gone a long way to paying our young studs...

As far as the offensive line goes, Shanahan left a good one, and McDaniels didn't draft one in the 1st round of either draft, in fact, he drafted almost all offense.

Other than that, congrats, horrible post. You're proud of the fact that our offense was 19th in scoring last year, and we're only that high because Tebow rallied us the last 3 games of the season.

topscribe
08-15-2011, 12:28 AM
I'm saying that if you were to dissect the current front office, you'd realize that Xanders has been a part of only one or two front offices that ever had a winning season, most of the time the teams they fielded were not that good. Elway is new to the whole ordeal and it will take time to get really good at his own job within the organization. Fox's hands were rather tied in Carolina, but some of his choices were massively suspect, the fans began to turn on him and he was considered mediocre by the time he was done, he only had three winning seasons and a lot of the dissatisfaction (comically) came because of his loyalty to a certain quarterback.

If you look at the experience of the front office, it's no wonder people question the decisions they make at this point, because they have much to prove and are saddled with the damage that has lingered on from McDaniels, including an very cautious fanbase that has trust issues with the Organization and those running it beyond just them. Look at how much Xanders is disliked or Ellis for that matter, look at the disdain their is for keeping McCoy or how Bowlen is considered senile now...

So, in other words, any stupid fan could do the job.

Gotcha.

-----

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 01:23 AM
So, in other words, any stupid fan could do the job.

Gotcha.

-----

No, just that you act like these guys are sending ships into space or researching sub-atomic fission.

They're picking football players. They're coaching football players. They're playing a game. It isn't like much of an IQ or eduction is required to do this.

Mike Leach, Chip Kelly, Charlie Weis, and others didn't even play football above the high school level and they've done just fine. You can't tell me that Brian Xanders is smarter than everyone on this message board, or that Josh McDaniels would build a better roster than any of us. You don't know.

claymore
08-15-2011, 01:28 AM
For me it has nothing to do about the pre-season game. I expected that going off what ive seen the last 2 years. Fans get piss poor attitudes when teams continue to ignore glaring problems (i.e not taking care of the DT position, not upgrading the QB position, etc). Sure, we can say they are just now starting to address some of it but not all of it. You act like the fans cant be displeased about anything which is BS to begin with.

This is the first time in 2 years I thought this team was going in the right direction.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 01:35 AM
This is the first time in 2 years I thought this team was going in the right direction.

I'm cautiously optimistic. EFX hasn't made many moves I haven't agreed with. We were a bad, bad team last year. It isn't going to get fixed in one season. I'm willing to ride with them for a while.

zbeg
08-15-2011, 01:56 AM
No, just that you act like these guys are sending ships into space or researching sub-atomic fission.

They're picking football players. They're coaching football players. They're playing a game. It isn't like much of an IQ or eduction is required to do this.

Mike Leach, Chip Kelly, Charlie Weis, and others didn't even play football above the high school level and they've done just fine. You can't tell me that Brian Xanders is smarter than everyone on this message board, or that Josh McDaniels would build a better roster than any of us. You don't know.

It's safe to assume that if there is a strong demand for something (in this case, someone who can run an NFL team) and there's an ample supply (people who would kill for the chance to run an NFL team), that the people selected are going to be at the very top of what they do.

You think that it's just a lottery who gets to run these things? That the only difference between the average fan and the people actually making the decisions in a billion dollar industry is just...randomness? Really?

Also, "they're playing a game" is such a BS argument for not requiring someone to be smart. You know what is also a game? Chess. Sure, the best chess players can't be that smart though - they're just playing a game, after all!

Football is a pretty complex game - and anyone who thinks that the fans in general know as much as the front office people, that any average person can come in and do as good a job - demonstrates a complete lack of touch with reality and shows a bizarre arrogance that makes it hard to take people who make these types of claims seriously.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 02:08 AM
It's safe to assume that if there is a strong demand for something (in this case, someone who can run an NFL team) and there's an ample supply (people who would kill for the chance to run an NFL team), that the people selected are going to be at the very top of what they do.

You think that it's just a lottery who gets to run these things? That the only difference between the average fan and the people actually making the decisions in a billion dollar industry is just...randomness? Really?

Also, "they're playing a game" is such a BS argument for not requiring someone to be smart. You know what is also a game? Chess. Sure, the best chess players can't be that smart though - they're just playing a game, after all!

Football is a pretty complex game - and anyone who thinks that the fans in general know as much as the front office people, that any average person can come in and do as good a job - demonstrates a complete lack of touch with reality and shows a bizarre arrogance that makes it hard to take people who make these types of claims seriously.

I understand when someone makes the kind of errors that went on in Dove Valley the past two years fans believe that anyone including them could do a better job. Highly doubtful, but I understand the sentiment. I'm sure there are a number of Bills, Browns and Bengals fans that feel that way.

claymore
08-15-2011, 02:17 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic. EFX hasn't made many moves I haven't agreed with. We were a bad, bad team last year. It isn't going to get fixed in one season. I'm willing to ride with them for a while.

Yeah Dude, I wouldnt be suprised to win 10 games this year. Which would be bad for the Luck race, but Im not a fan of tanking a season to draft someone.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 02:29 AM
Yeah Dude, I wouldnt be suprised to win 10 games this year. Which would be bad for the Luck race, but Im not a fan of tanking a season to draft someone.

While I'm predicting six wins, if the stars aligned correctly maybe a playoff birth wouldn't be out of the realm. A number of things would have to happen. Kyle Orton would have to have a career year, not a game manager but a bonafied stellar season. Lloyd has to have another outstanding season. We have to have a run game. Getting Doom back has to be worth something paired with Miller. Injuries would have to be minimal and not to any key players. We literally have no depth. Finally, the run defense would at a minimum would have to be middle of the pack. Like I said, the stars would have to align correctly.

Lancane
08-15-2011, 02:46 AM
It's safe to assume that if there is a strong demand for something (in this case, someone who can run an NFL team) and there's an ample supply (people who would kill for the chance to run an NFL team), that the people selected are going to be at the very top of what they do.

You think that it's just a lottery who gets to run these things? That the only difference between the average fan and the people actually making the decisions in a billion dollar industry is just...randomness? Really?

Also, "they're playing a game" is such a BS argument for not requiring someone to be smart. You know what is also a game? Chess. Sure, the best chess players can't be that smart though - they're just playing a game, after all!

Football is a pretty complex game - and anyone who thinks that the fans in general know as much as the front office people, that any average person can come in and do as good a job - demonstrates a complete lack of touch with reality and shows a bizarre arrogance that makes it hard to take people who make these types of claims seriously.

Seriously? I've seen coaches who've coached only at the high school level to then go on because of an association to a pro football team and do better then a collegiate coach of the same experience. Why are some collegiate coaches, actually more then most of the modern age compared to the few successes or those bred through a system of coaching not as good? It's not rocket science, it really isn't - perfect example is Mel Kiper, while a fair number of people don't like him, he's considered a draft guru (Draftnik) and the idiot has no experience with the sport, and that is a fact - he was a college geek who followed the sport only, actually a lot of the draftniks and bookies in regards to Vegas have no football experience, so what makes them so well versed to understand the sport? The two with experience of the top of my head is Mike Mayock and Todd McShay.

Some General Managers have certain experience but really don't have the background for the position, Gene Smith in Jacksonville is one such that comes to mind. Look at Martin Mayhew in Detroit who has a law degree, had very little experience and surpassed the likes of Matt Millen. Mark Dominik has likewise done well and had little experience compared to the man he replaced...the point I'm making is that being able to see beyond numbers, beyond scouting reports and the rankings, it's not limited to who played, where they coached or what experience they have. If that was the fact then several current front office personnel people wouldn't have jobs - landing a job in the NFL is also about who you know, and the same could be said for the collegiate level as well. We've got a perfect example of all this in Joe Ellis, he was a development specialist for the league, who befriended Bowlen and was hired as the Director of Marketing, left and when he returned he all of a sudden had experience in Personnel Management, Stadium Management and Finance Management? 'In plain english the man had no experience and they granted him too much power out of association...it's not unheard of.

And while we're on the subject, do we really want to talk about the education of football players? I mean some are rather quite intellectual and intelligent, but a fair number were doing enough just to get by in order to play the sport. Would you trust a football player, educated or otherwise trying to split an atom in regards to the study of atomic energy? I sure in the hell wouldn't, I don't anyone would...so while there are those of above average smarts, most are not geniuses changing the world, there simply football players and that doesn't mean that they'll be good in other aspects of the sport either, Dan Marino proved as much himself.

;)

Lancane
08-15-2011, 02:50 AM
Yeah Dude, I wouldnt be suprised to win 10 games this year. Which would be bad for the Luck race, but Im not a fan of tanking a season to draft someone.

I don't think anyone expects them to tank the season in regards to the draft, but at the same time I don't have blinders on in which this team looks better then they are, lesser expectation breeds far less disappointment. If we win ten games then great, well not great because then something stupid could happen such as Orton getting a fat extension and then we'd be stuck with the mediocrity.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 02:56 AM
I don't think anyone expects them to tank the season in regards to the draft, but at the same time I don't have blinders on in which this team looks better then they are, lesser expectation breeds far less disappointment. If we win ten games then great, well not great because then something stupid could happen such as Orton getting a fat extension and then we'd be stuck with the mediocrity.

Lol. Like I said the stars would have to align for us to be playoff team, and I'm sure Kyle would have to be a big part of it. Not likely.

claymore
08-15-2011, 02:59 AM
I don't think anyone expects them to tank the season in regards to the draft, but at the same time I don't have blinders on in which this team looks better then they are, lesser expectation breeds far less disappointment. If we win ten games then great, well not great because then something stupid could happen such as Orton getting a fat extension and then we'd be stuck with the mediocrity.

I still dont think he would get an extension. NOONE wants Orton to be their starter. He is a backup QB in this league. A damn fine backup, but a backup none the less.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 03:02 AM
I still dont think he would get an extension. NOONE wants Orton to be their starter. He is a backup QB in this league. A damn fine backup, but a backup none the less.

He thinks he's the ten million dollar man. I hope he puts up a season to match his view of his self worth.

Lancane
08-15-2011, 03:05 AM
I still dont think he would get an extension. NOONE wants Orton to be their starter. He is a backup QB in this league. A damn fine backup, but a backup none the less.

Not according to the Ortonites, in their eyes he's the best big-armed quarterback in the league, discovered white bread and saved helpless puppies from drowning!

:lol:

Canmore
08-15-2011, 03:22 AM
Not according to the Ortonites, in their eyes he's the best big-armed quarterback in the league, discovered white bread and saved helpless puppies from drowning!

:lol:

Personally, I don't think Kyle can put up a good enough season to earn an extension here, not unless he wins the Super Bowl and even then I wonder.

bcbronc
08-15-2011, 03:33 AM
Personally, I don't think Kyle can put up a good enough season to earn an extension here, not unless he wins the Super Bowl and even then I wonder.

yup, best move Baltiimore ever made was trying to upgrade their QB after winning the SB.

We're not winning the Superbowl of course, so it's all moot. I don't know what Orton would have to do for me to think he's worth an extension...3800 yards, 3 to 1 TD to Ints, at least a couple impressive game-winning 4th quarter drives, and a 3rd down QB rating at least in the 90s with a top 5 3rd down conversion %...all that happens (assuming it results in wins) and I'd at least put extending Orton on the table.

Of course, if all that happened Orton would be playing like an elite QB. If we're getting elite play out of the QB position, I could care less what name is on the back of his jersey. Won't be holding my breath though.

I do agree though that just having a "good" season won't get him extended in Denver...he'll have to be in the pro-bowl discussion for EFX to even consider it (hopefully anyways).

Canmore
08-15-2011, 03:39 AM
yup, best move Baltiimore ever made was trying to upgrade their QB after winning the SB.

We're not winning the Superbowl of course, so it's all moot. I don't know what Orton would have to do for me to think he's worth an extension...3800 yards, 3 to 1 TD to Ints, at least a couple impressive game-winning 4th quarter drives, and a 3rd down QB rating at least in the 90s with a top 5 3rd down conversion %...all that happens (assuming it results in wins) and I'd at least put extending Orton on the table.

Of course, if all that happened Orton would be playing like an elite QB. If we're getting elite play out of the QB position, I could care less what name is on the back of his jersey. Won't be holding my breath though.

I do agree though that just having a "good" season won't get him extended in Denver...he'll have to be in the pro-bowl discussion for EFX to even consider it (hopefully anyways).

If Kyle put the kind of season together that you are outlining and we provide him a running game and a defense we would be a playoff team. Would I be interested in extending him? Your darn right I would. That is the type of performance that we in Denver are looking for from the quarterback position. Remember to breathe lol.

zbeg
08-15-2011, 05:26 AM
Seriously? I've seen coaches who've coached only at the high school level to then go on because of an association to a pro football team and do better then a collegiate coach of the same experience. Why are some collegiate coaches, actually more then most of the modern age compared to the few successes or those bred through a system of coaching not as good? It's not rocket science, it really isn't - perfect example is Mel Kiper, while a fair number of people don't like him, he's considered a draft guru (Draftnik) and the idiot has no experience with the sport, and that is a fact - he was a college geek who followed the sport only, actually a lot of the draftniks and bookies in regards to Vegas have no football experience, so what makes them so well versed to understand the sport? The two with experience of the top of my head is Mike Mayock and Todd McShay.

I think you're equating experience with qualifications, which are related, but not the same thing. If person A is smarter/understands the game better/has better or more innovative ideas but has less experience than person B, I'll go with person A every time.

What makes these guys well-versed enough to understand the sport? Because a lot of these guys are really, really smart - and they can overcome lack of experience by other means. You think Vegas is going to hire idiots to run their multi-billion dollar gambling industry? Of course not. They're going to find the best possible people for the job, and if that means hiring some computer geek who is a wizard at data analysis, then so be it. Dollars don't care about experience.

As for folks like Kiper (or any draft expert - or any high-level, professional analyst for that matter), there's an effect where people tend to focus on the failures and not the successes.

It's a little like professional poker. Barry Greenstein, one of the top players in the world, estimates his edge to be around 3% against the field for most games at his level. That's obviously not very big, and he's one of the best players in the world. But by exploiting that 3% edge over and over and over again, he's able to make millions.

However - if you looked at his play, you'd see him lose a lot of pots. A lot. 47% is almost, but not quite half - and that's not a big margin that separates him from a breakeven player. But that's about as good as it gets. You aren't able to say, "Wow, this guy loses a lot of the time - this so-called poker pro is barely more than a breakeven player!"

Similarly, folks like McShay, Kiper, and so on, are wrong a lot of the time. Football is not an exact science, and there are random elements to it. But those guys are wrong less often than your fan. But if you focus on "all the times Kiper said someone was good/bad and then the opposite happened," it's going to look a lot like the top poker player losing all those pots.

You're just not going to do much better than a 3%ish skill edge in poker, and you're not going to do much better than whatever Kiper/McShay/Mayock's prediction rate is for the NFL draft.



Some General Managers have certain experience but really don't have the background for the position, Gene Smith in Jacksonville is one such that comes to mind. Look at Martin Mayhew in Detroit who has a law degree, had very little experience and surpassed the likes of Matt Millen. Mark Dominik has likewise done well and had little experience compared to the man he replaced...the point I'm making is that being able to see beyond numbers, beyond scouting reports and the rankings, it's not limited to who played, where they coached or what experience they have.


But doesn't that strengthen the argument that teams know what they're doing? That they are so driven to find the best people to run their teams, they are willing to do very unintuitive things like hire guys with little football experience (and with a law degree of all things) because they've shown the acumen to make good football decisions.



If that was the fact then several current front office personnel people wouldn't have jobs - landing a job in the NFL is also about who you know, and the same could be said for the collegiate level as well. We've got a perfect example of all this in Joe Ellis, he was a development specialist for the league, who befriended Bowlen and was hired as the Director of Marketing, left and when he returned he all of a sudden had experience in Personnel Management, Stadium Management and Finance Management? 'In plain english the man had no experience and they granted him too much power out of association...it's not unheard of.


I think the examples you gave above actually work against the point you're trying to make. If the front office selection process wasn't a meritocracy, you wouldn't have guys like Martin Mayhew running the team. It would be the continued old-school "old boys club," and you'd never see a guy with little experience, but who are very smart, running teams - not to the extent that we see today.



And while we're on the subject, do we really want to talk about the education of football players? I mean some are rather quite intellectual and intelligent, but a fair number were doing enough just to get by in order to play the sport. Would you trust a football player, educated or otherwise trying to split an atom in regards to the study of atomic energy? I sure in the hell wouldn't, I don't anyone would...so while there are those of above average smarts, most are not geniuses changing the world, there simply football players and that doesn't mean that they'll be good in other aspects of the sport either, Dan Marino proved as much himself.

;)

I really detest this false dichotomy. No, I wouldn't trust a football player to split an atom. You know who else I wouldn't trust? Virtually everyone I've ever met at any point of my life, ever. You're talking about something that a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the population is capable of doing. Would you trust anyone on this message board to split an atom? Your average NFL fan? Your average anything (unless your demographic is nuclear physicists)? You shouldn't.

Besides, the average NFL player doesn't go on to run the front office. NFL players are physical freaks and are on the very very edge of the genetic bell curve. That's where a lot of their value resides. When it comes to running a front office, the fact that you are genetically blessed with crazy good physical skills is irrelevant, and you don't really see a lot of players move up into front offices. Occasionally one or two will, but you're talking less than a half dozen out of hundreds or possibly thousands of candidates.

That strongly suggests that it takes more than just being lucky or "who you know" to run an NFL team. These guys are part of an exclusive group of people who have highly specific skills. The notion that "any average person could run a team better than these bums" seems quite ludicrous.

And to anyone who disagrees, I'd love to play poker against you. =-)

Watchthemiddle
08-15-2011, 06:30 AM
Personally, I don't think Kyle can put up a good enough season to earn an extension here, not unless he wins the Super Bowl and even then I wonder.

Plummer was the last QB to ever do anything worth while and he was run out of town....and 10 times the QB of Orton....so YUP, Orton will be gone regardless of what he does this year.

Juriga72
08-15-2011, 06:36 AM
Just to be a .500 qb Orton would need:

Top 10 running game
Top 10 defense
Top 5 Special Teams

WHO couldn't we insert as our QB then?...Seriously, upgrade him and we are a much better team.

claymore
08-15-2011, 06:39 AM
Just to be a .500 qb Orton would need:

Top 10 running game
Top 10 defense
Top 5 Special Teams

WHO couldn't we insert as our QB then?...Seriously, upgrade him and we are a much better team.

Only way we are going to Upgrade Orton is through the draft. He is the best we have. Its sad, but its the truth.

Juriga72
08-15-2011, 06:53 AM
Only way we are going to Upgrade Orton is through the draft. He is the best we have. Its sad, but its the truth.

Very true. Its just to point out to those still in denial of Orton's shortcomings.

Lets face it kids.... EVEN the 0-16 Detroit Lions had "Team Captains"...

Orton named "Team Captain in Chicago"-Traded for 5th round pick


:coffee:

TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 08:55 AM
Plummer was the last QB to ever do anything worth while and he was run out of town....and 10 times the QB of Orton....so YUP, Orton will be gone regardless of what he does this year.

Imo Plummer was better in many respects than Orton but not 10 fold. He could have been a lot than he was if he made the sacrifices necessary to be a great quarterback.

That aside I really believe it would take Orton have at very least make a deep playoff run for Elway to even consider not drafting a quarterback next year.

Orton has a 2:1 touchdowns to interceptions ratio that gets touted. But always playing not to make mistake is tantamount to playing not win.

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Just to be a .500 qb Orton would need:

Top 10 running game
Top 10 defense
Top 5 Special Teams

WHO couldn't we insert as our QB then?...Seriously, upgrade him and we are a much better team.

This is what some people fail to grasp. Though Orton isn't the SOLE problem, and he has been pretty productive from a yardage standpoint, if we upgrade him the team is instantly a LOT better on offense. You wouldn't think that's a tough concept to grasp but apparently it is...

TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Just to be a .500 qb Orton would need:

Top 10 running game
Top 10 defense
Top 5 Special Teams

WHO couldn't we insert as our QB then?...Seriously, upgrade him and we are a much better team.

Chad Henne or Matt Moore. :D

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Imo Plummer was better in many respects than Orton but not 10 fold. He could have been a lot than he was if he made the sacrifices necessary to be a great quarterback.

That aside I really believe it would take Orton have at very least make a deep playoff run for Elway to even consider not drafting a quarterback next year.

Orton has a 2:1 touchdowns to interceptions ratio that gets touted. But always playing not to make mistake is tantamount to playing not win.

In this offense Tom Brady had like a 5 to 1 TD-Int ratio in some seasons. That is how the spread is SUPPOSED to be run.

TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 09:30 AM
In this offense Tom Brady had like a 5 to 1 TD-Int ratio in some seasons. That is how the spread is SUPPOSED to be run.

He's had one season where it was 6:1 in 2007 and 9:1 in 2010 but the 2010 there were some differences between the two offenses. So that's not fair comparison because not every quarterback is as good as Tom Brady who will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. You can't tell me every other quarterback who runs the spread at the pro level is going to have that kind of ratio.

Orton isn't the kind of quarterback you build your franchise around but at the same time there are quite a few quarterbacks that he's better than. From what I've read he's seems to be ranked somewhere between 15 and 25 by other front offices. That said, I sure hell wouldn't want guys like Henne, Moore, Anderson, and Tavaris Jackson. Also don't think I would want Hasselbeck and McNabb at this point in their respective careers. So at the end of day I don't think Orton is long term solution he still better than many of the alternatives that were out there.

MOtorboat
08-15-2011, 10:04 AM
He's had one season where it was 6:1 in 2007 and 9:1 in 2010 but the 2010 there were some differences between the two offenses. So that's not fair comparison because not every quarterback is as good as Tom Brady who will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. You can't tell me every other quarterback who runs the spread at the pro level is going to have that kind of ratio.

Orton isn't the kind of quarterback you build your franchise around but at the same time there are quite a few quarterbacks that he's better than. From what I've read he's seems to be ranked somewhere between 15 and 25 by other front offices. That said, I sure hell wouldn't want guys like Henne, Moore, Anderson, and Tavaris Jackson. Also don't think I would want Hasselbeck and McNabb at this point in their respective careers. So at the end of day I don't think Orton is long term solution he still better than many of the alternatives that were out there.

What Pete Carroll did with his QB situation is just dumb. $8 million for Jackson? Hell you could have had Orton for $9 million and just one year and then drafted a quarterback next year...

TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 10:17 AM
What Pete Carroll did with his QB situation is just dumb. $8 million for Jackson? Hell you could have had Orton for $9 million and just one year and then drafted a quarterback next year...

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. The only thing it could be is that they think right or wrong Jackson has more upside and could still develop into solid starting quarterback.

rationalfan
08-15-2011, 10:18 AM
And this is also incorrect. I was talking about commerce. Whether you want to call it commerce or economics, it's all the same. And no, calling it commerce isn't going to make your gaffe different or more forgiveable. It's equally bad no matter how semantic.

thanks for not even reading my responses. it's been fun.

MOtorboat
08-15-2011, 10:36 AM
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. The only thing it could be is that they think right or wrong Jackson has more upside and could still develop into solid starting quarterback.

And he's only a year younger than Orton. Hey, at least we'll win some games this year...

Northman
08-15-2011, 11:13 AM
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. The only thing it could be is that they think right or wrong Jackson has more upside and could still develop into solid starting quarterback.


And obviously thought Jackson was better than Orton to not even consider him. :lol:

zbeg
08-15-2011, 11:32 AM
And obviously thought Jackson was better than Orton to not even consider him. :lol:

How do you know the Seahawks didn't even consider him?

Agent of Orange
08-15-2011, 12:50 PM
thanks for not even reading my responses. it's been fun.

You're right, I didn't read your responses. When you wrote an essay trying to explain away your ****up, it was obvious what it was. I know what you're doing. I'm just doing myself a favor by sparing me the BS.

Northman
08-15-2011, 01:10 PM
How do you know the Seahawks didn't even consider him?

Its not rocket science Z.

Not much gets by the media, especially now days with all the QB drama that we have. If a team was interested the general public would of known about it.

NightTerror218
08-15-2011, 01:48 PM
I also believe in Kyle Orton..........



that he will get us a draft pick before he flees Denver.

Jsteve01
08-15-2011, 01:52 PM
I'm glad someone believes in him, because the countless times he's failed when we needed a QB to step up is the reason why the general fanbase doesn't.

I wonder what the locker rooms excuse will be when Denver is losing games in the 4th quarter this year and were getting poor play from the one position we need great play at when it counts.

Exactly, the entire fanbase is much more intelligent than paid football talent evaluators and coaches, let alone the guys who play with this group week in and week out. I mean just look at what a good job the fans do voting for all star games every year right?

Jsteve01
08-15-2011, 02:02 PM
And obviously thought Jackson was better than Orton to not even consider him. :lol:

Well Jackson does have a fantastic track record on a team with AP and that defense....oh wait.

And in all honesty I got a good laugh out of Seattle's hypocrisy at stating Jackson had gotten a "raw deal" and "jerked around" in Minny and then thinking, wasn't it just a few weeks ago that Charlie Whitehurst "is our starter".

Lost a lot of respect for Pete Carrol over the past few years.

Northman
08-15-2011, 02:04 PM
Well Jackson does have a fantastic track record on a team with AP and that defense....oh wait.

And in all honesty I got a good laugh out of Seattle's hypocrisy at stating Jackson had gotten a "raw deal" and "jerked around" in Minny and then thinking, wasn't it just a few weeks ago that Charlie Whitehurst "is our starter".

Lost a lot of respect for Pete Carrol over the past few years.

Thats what makes our senario even worse.

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 02:21 PM
Travaris Jackson SUCKS. The only reason he's there is because he is familiar with their offense, not that he can run it well, just that he knows it well.

Either Whitehurst is REALLY bad or Pete Carroll is REALLY dumb, and it isn't as easy in the NFL when you don't have superior talent to drum other teams with every week.

Pete Carroll has been bad thus far, his moves aren't much better than McDaniels, and giving Jackson that sort of money made no sense, Orton is a much better option than Jackson.

zbeg
08-15-2011, 02:30 PM
Its not rocket science Z.

Not much gets by the media, especially now days with all the QB drama that we have. If a team was interested the general public would of known about it.

Ah, I wasn't aware that Pete Carroll's thoughts are documented by the media. Got it.

BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 02:31 PM
Fine. Now we all know all about those achievements by Brady in 2007 and 2010.
Somehow, I suppose that's relevant. :whoknows:

BTW, before his last two games, Orton's ratio was 3.33:1 . . .

-----

I would have thought this was a cherry plantation with all the cherry-picking your Orton-ites like to do.

topscribe
08-15-2011, 02:33 PM
I would have thought this was a cherry plantation with all the cherry-picking your Orton-ites like to do.

How's that old saying go? - "Pot, meet kettle."

-----

dogfish
08-15-2011, 02:36 PM
so, just checking in. . . who's winning here?


have we managed to make orton into a good QB yet, or get rid of him?



okay, carry on then. . .

Northman
08-15-2011, 02:44 PM
so, just checking in. . . who's winning here?


have we managed to make orton into a good QB yet, or get rid of him?



okay, carry on then. . .

Northman 100, everyone else 0.

Northman
08-15-2011, 02:50 PM
Ah, I wasn't aware that Pete Carroll's thoughts are documented by the media. Got it.


Oh yea, that was my total implication. :rolleyes:


Goddamn, people on this forum are idiots sometimes.

bcbronc
08-15-2011, 02:53 PM
This is what some people fail to grasp. Though Orton isn't the SOLE problem, and he has been pretty productive from a yardage standpoint, if we upgrade him the team is instantly a LOT better on offense. You wouldn't think that's a tough concept to grasp but apparently it is...

Lol, I think its you having troubles grasping an easy concept...namely upgrading a position requires having somebody better.

You realize your point about "upgrade and the team will be better" holds for every player on the roster, right? Upgrade Moreno, we're a better team. Upgrade Clady we're a better team. Upgrade Champ we're a better team. What the heck have EFX been doing all summer, every position should have been upgraded by now!! :rollseyes:

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BroncoStud
08-15-2011, 02:54 PM
Lol, I think its you having troubles grasping an easy concept...namely upgrading a position requires having somebody better.

You realize your point about "upgrade and the team will be better" holds for every player on the roster, right? Upgrade Moreno, we're a better team. Upgrade Clady we're a better team. Upgrade Champ we're a better team. What the heck have EFX been doing all summer, every position should have been upgraded by now!! :rollseyes:

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Moreno isn't throwing the ball on 3rd down, Moreno isn't taking every snap, Moreno isn't "leader" of the team, Moreno isn't playing the most important position in football, Orton is.

Apples and oranges, you know, fruit?

zbeg
08-15-2011, 02:57 PM
Oh yea, that was my total implication. :rolleyes:


Goddamn, people on this forum are idiots sometimes.

Yeah, when you say "he didn't consider Orton." "How do you know?" "Because if he had considered it, it would have been reported."

Thinking about something = considering. Not sure if you knew that. Ergo, thinking gets reported to the media. See how that works?

HTH.

Also, agreed with you totally on the second point.

Northman
08-15-2011, 03:01 PM
Yeah, when you say "he didn't consider Orton." "How do you know?" "Because if he had considered it, it would have been reported."

Thinking about something = considering. Not sure if you knew that. Ergo, thinking gets reported to the media. See how that works?

HTH.

Also, agreed with you totally on the second point.


Yes, most logical people know what i was talking about however it totally went right over your head. Guess some people need to argue for the sake of argueing.

In this day and age according to your fantastic logic the media can find out about illegal taping, a phone call placed about a trade, but no way in hell can they get word that a team is interested in a player. Yes, thats great logic mate. :lol:

TXBRONC
08-15-2011, 03:54 PM
How do you know the Seahawks didn't even consider him?

If they did consider Orton it didn't beyond that. They didn't even make an offer instead they went with a quarterback that's of quality imo. So what does that say?

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Juriga72
08-15-2011, 03:56 PM
Hmmmm

I would say that Carrol didn't want Orton in much the same way Pro Bowl coaches have passed him over for more deserving players each and every year he has been eligible...

Wonder why THAT is?

zbeg
08-15-2011, 04:18 PM
Yes, most logical people know what i was talking about however it totally went right over your head. Guess some people need to argue for the sake of argueing.

In this day and age according to your fantastic logic the media can find out about illegal taping, a phone call placed about a trade, but no way in hell can they get word that a team is interested in a player. Yes, thats great logic mate. :lol:

Well, since you brought up logic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

HTH. Again.



Hmmmm

I would say that Carrol didn't want Orton in much the same way Pro Bowl coaches have passed him over for more deserving players each and every year he has been eligible...

Wonder why THAT is?

Because he's in the same conference as Manning, Brady, and Rivers?

GEM
08-15-2011, 04:47 PM
Alright guys....can you all have this debate without getting personal. There are just too many here to go through and clean up. Save us some time here and just stop with the getting personal.

Kthxbai.

topscribe
08-15-2011, 04:51 PM
Alright guys....can you all have this debate without getting personal. There are just too many here to go through and clean up. Save us some time here and just stop with the getting personal.

Kthxbai.

Did you have to butt in?

You are nothing but a . . . a . . . um . . .



a very pretty lady . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thnervous.gif



-----

bcbronc
08-15-2011, 04:58 PM
Moreno isn't throwing the ball on 3rd down, Moreno isn't taking every snap, Moreno isn't "leader" of the team, Moreno isn't playing the most important position in football, Orton is.

Apples and oranges, you know, fruit?

You're still skipping around the obvious...ya upgrading the QB improves the team (and apparently according to your logic, upgrading other roster spots doesn't). Unfortunately, unlike both apples and oranges "upgrades" at QB don't grow on trees. I'm pretty sure everyone here save top wants to upgrade Orton, but a few posters just can't grasp that there is NO upgrade currenlty available. You see where the problem lies? You just can't upgrade a position if there isn't a better option available...and I shouldn't have to explain something this obvious.

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topscribe
08-15-2011, 05:08 PM
You're still skipping around the obvious...ya upgrading the QB improves the team (and apparently according to your logic, upgrading other roster spots doesn't). Unfortunately, unlike both apples and oranges "upgrades" at QB don't grow on trees. I'm pretty sure everyone here save top wants to upgrade Orton, but a few posters just can't grasp that there is NO upgrade currenlty available. You see where the problem lies? You just can't upgrade a position if there isn't a better option available...and I shouldn't have to explain something this obvious.

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Right. Nice dig. I've been with the Broncos for 50+ years, and I wouldn't want
to upgrade Orton's position, or any other position on the squad . . .

-----

Slick
08-15-2011, 05:51 PM
Gem we need to merge about ten or fifteen threads.

Seriously.

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dogfish
08-15-2011, 05:58 PM
Gem we need to merge about ten or fifteen threads.

Seriously.

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damn right. . . it's time to put this retarded baby to bed. . .


:welcome:

Lancane
08-15-2011, 06:08 PM
You're still skipping around the obvious...ya upgrading the QB improves the team (and apparently according to your logic, upgrading other roster spots doesn't). Unfortunately, unlike both apples and oranges "upgrades" at QB don't grow on trees. I'm pretty sure everyone here save top wants to upgrade Orton, but a few posters just can't grasp that there is NO upgrade currenlty available. You see where the problem lies? You just can't upgrade a position if there isn't a better option available...and I shouldn't have to explain something this obvious.

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BC, I think you're missing something? I've continuously stated that Orton is the better quarterback on the roster in terms of knowing the offense, his overall mechanics and ability to run the offense. I'm just not sold that with him in we're going to be that much better. Does that mean I believe Quinn or Tebow would either be better or possibly even fail? No, but I would like to see what we have in both before we allow this organization to turn into a scrap heap. Few fans really expect us to win that many games this year, because it's a rebuilding year - Orton and Quinn are both UFRA after the season, but no one wants Orton, so even if he plays to his standard game management, low turnovers he'll be left to squander in free agency (hopefully) and Quinn, all we gave up for him and we get nothing in return? If we started Quinn and he does above average we could tag him and maybe get compensation for him, or maybe not - if we started Tebow and he's not really the future as long as he's improved and above average someone would be interested in him.

Come the end of the season there is a huge possibility that Denver will have only one quarterback on the roster in Tebow. As it stands now we're going to lose any return for what we gave up for Quinn, Orton's value really doesn't matter because he's gone and Tebow will leave tons of questions. And if we look at it from that perspective, that Orton is truly the best of the three to go with this season, that it's not even worth trying to start either of the other two in order to gain value on either one...it could easily point to where the team values them overall at least IMHO.

GEM
08-15-2011, 06:15 PM
Gem we need to merge about ten or fifteen threads.

Seriously.

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Let me start a discussion because I happen to agree. Sad all these threads start out as an individual discussion and soon enough it's all the same.

NightTerror218
08-15-2011, 06:20 PM
Let me start a discussion because I happen to agree. Sad all these threads start out as an individual discussion and soon enough it's all the same.

Need to put you foot down.....or just give 2 topics...."Orton/Tebow" and on "Everythign Else"

GEM
08-15-2011, 06:22 PM
Thread has been started in Town Hall. Please add your opinions to the conversation.

Canmore
08-15-2011, 06:23 PM
BC, I think you're missing something? I've continuously stated that Orton is the better quarterback on the roster in terms of knowing the offense, his overall mechanics and ability to run the offense. I'm just not sold that with him in we're going to be that much better. Does that mean I believe Quinn or Tebow would either be better or possibly even fail? No, but I would like to see what we have in both before we allow this organization to turn into a scrap heap. Few fans really expect us to win that many games this year, because it's a rebuilding year - Orton and Quinn are both UFRA after the season, but no one wants Orton, so even if he plays to his standard game management, low turnovers he'll be left to squander in free agency (hopefully) and Quinn, all we gave up for him and we get nothing in return? If we started Quinn and he does above average we could tag him and maybe get compensation for him, or maybe not - if we started Tebow and he's not really the future as long as he's improved and above average someone would be interested in him.

Come the end of the season there is a huge possibility that Denver will have only one quarterback on the roster in Tebow. As it stands now we're going to lose any return for what we gave up for Quinn, Orton's value really doesn't matter because he's gone and Tebow will leave tons of questions. And if we look at it from that perspective, that Orton is truly the best of the three to go with this season, that it's not even worth trying to start either of the other two in order to gain value on either one...it could easily point to where the team values them overall at least IMHO.

I'd love to see us play Quinn or Tebow or both. Let's see what we have. Don't think it's going to happen unless Orton gets hurt which is a very real possibility.

I don't think our quarterback of the future is on this roster. He's playing college ball. Who he is, I don't know. Luck I feel, is not on our side, he is a real longshot. I just don't think we are going to suck enough. Is Elway willing to "settle" for someone else? I think so. Who that is will be determined this season. Both by us and by him.

chazoe60
08-15-2011, 06:25 PM
Merge them and call the giant merged thread "Orton sucks, why cant you see that? Here, I'll post all my statistical and anecdotal evidence one more time."

Lancane
08-15-2011, 06:33 PM
I'd love to see us play Quinn or Tebow or both. Let's see what we have. Don't think it's going to happen unless Orton gets hurt which is a very real possibility.

I don't think our quarterback of the future is on this roster. He's playing college ball. Who he is, I don't know. Luck I feel, is not on our side, he is a real longshot. I just don't think we are going to suck enough. Is Elway willing to "settle" for someone else? I think so. Who that is will be determined this season. Both by us and by him.

Couldn't agree more! :beer:

As for who I think we'll draft, I'm leaning towards Landry 'Lance' Jones of Oklahoma, he has a good solid arm, is quick footed and has tremendous upside, reminds me a lot of a young Jake Plummer which I believe I stated before. That and add in Bowlen's ties to Jones' program?

topscribe
08-15-2011, 06:36 PM
Merge them and call the giant merged thread "Orton sucks, why cant you see that? Here, I'll post all my statistical and anecdotal evidence one more time."

Well, that will take care of one post . . . ;)

-----

Canmore
08-15-2011, 06:47 PM
Couldn't agree more! :beer:

As for who I think we'll draft, I'm leaning towards Landry 'Lance' Jones of Oklahoma, he has a good solid arm, is quick footed and has tremendous upside, reminds me a lot of a young Jake Plummer which I believe I stated before. That and add in Bowlen's ties to Jones' program?

I could live with another Jake Plummer. I certainly would take his record. He won close to two out of every three games, and he was exciting to watch. Something we desperately need to put the fans back in the stands. Sold out games with 15,000 no shows and a pile of opposing teams fans in the stands doesn't cut it.

zbeg
08-15-2011, 09:39 PM
Alright guys....can you all have this debate without getting personal. There are just too many here to go through and clean up. Save us some time here and just stop with the getting personal.

Kthxbai.

Sorry about that, GEM. I got a little testy in the heat of the debate and such.

My apologies to the other forumites and the mods for my behavior. I promise to do better in the future.