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broncofaninfla
08-12-2011, 09:18 PM
Given the drop off of talent if the offensive line, should Orton, Tebow and Quinn each get a chance to play with the offensive starters in pre-season? Three different qb's with three different styles. I'd be curious to see who truly gives us our best chance of scoring and winning.

Northman
08-12-2011, 09:22 PM
Absolutely.

xzn
08-12-2011, 09:24 PM
I'd be shocked if it actually happened, but I'd love it if it did.

Canmore
08-12-2011, 09:27 PM
I'd be shocked if it actually happened, but I'd love it if it did.

That is how I feel. It would be nice to see all three with the first team, but it is not going to happen. Fox is not going to give the starters that many reps so that each quarterback gets an audition.

Lonestar
08-12-2011, 10:39 PM
Actually ALL FOUR QBs should get some face time with the starting Offense..

MOtorboat
08-12-2011, 10:42 PM
No.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 10:54 PM
I've never seen this ever happen. You have to earn the right to be the starter. You do that in practice, where the coaches feel they get a MUCH better look at you. The players/coaches don't think that pre-season is a better look, or the coaches/players would take advantage of pre-season games and actually PLAY. Instead, a LOT of starters simply sit out, and coaches let them. If it was BETTER practice, they would take advantage of the situation.

If you can't earn your playing time with the starters in practice, then you don't earn your playing time.

Plus, now you are asking that the starting OL, WR, RBs, and everyone ELSE play 3 times as long purely for the QB... while the depth players get 3 times LESS playing time.

SR
08-12-2011, 10:54 PM
After watching Quinn ball out last night with third stringers, I'd really like to see him with the first team.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:37 AM
Plus, now you are asking that the starting OL, WR, RBs, and everyone ELSE play 3 times as long purely for the QB... while the depth players get 3 times LESS playing time.

Not really. Orton starts PS week 1. Quinn PS week 2. Tebow PS week 3. Whomever the coaching staff feels earned the starting role in those games and practice gets week 4 and starts the season.

MOtorboat
08-13-2011, 12:56 AM
Plus, now you are asking that the starting OL, WR, RBs, and everyone ELSE play 3 times as long purely for the QB... while the depth players get 3 times LESS playing time.

Not really. Orton starts PS week 1. Quinn PS week 2. Tebow PS week 3. Whomever the coaching staff feels earned the starting role in those games and practice gets week 4 and starts the season.

I believe the word "entitled" comes to mind. Earn it in practice.

Watchthemiddle
08-13-2011, 01:03 AM
I believe the word "entitled" comes to mind. Earn it in practice.

Earn it in practice...I guess that is why Quinn was 3rd string. He EARNED it in practice. :cool:

broncofaninfla
08-13-2011, 08:26 AM
I understand earning it in practice but a great practice play doesn't always translate into great game play. Ive seen teams rotate two qbs with starters in preseason before. After the dallas game I'd sure like to see all three get their shot to play with the starters.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 10:13 AM
Not really. Orton starts PS week 1. Quinn PS week 2. Tebow PS week 3. Whomever the coaching staff feels earned the starting role in those games and practice gets week 4 and starts the season.

The pre-season games will not be the determining factor as to who wins the starting QB job. I'm telling you. Plus, as you know, the starters play MORE during the third pre-season game than the last and the 1st two. Wouldn't one QB have a bigger advantage? Wouldn't another havea larger disadvantage (because they are playing against more starting defensive personnel, and our team won't want to start too many starting offensive players).

The coaches know who the best QB is. They know that from what the QB does when reading the plays, calling the plays, reading the defenses, and execution.

I get that people know.. KNOW... that Orton is not a game player, and I agree. But the coaches are NOT going to put a guy as the starter that has proved he can't do it in practice.

Lonestar
08-13-2011, 11:05 AM
Typically the starter gets the first shot with the starters on the team. Then they play the backups To get them some game time and that usually rotates in games 2 and four withe the starters not playing almost at all the last PS game at least that seems to be the MO for most teams.

By then they are looking to rest the starters as they should have most of their timing down.

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jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 11:20 AM
The pre-season games will not be the determining factor as to who wins the starting QB job. I'm telling you. Plus, as you know, the starters play MORE during the third pre-season game than the last and the 1st two. Wouldn't one QB have a bigger advantage? Wouldn't another havea larger disadvantage (because they are playing against more starting defensive personnel, and our team won't want to start too many starting offensive players).

The coaches know who the best QB is. They know that from what the QB does when reading the plays, calling the plays, reading the defenses, and execution.

I get that people know.. KNOW... that Orton is not a game player, and I agree. But the coaches are NOT going to put a guy as the starter that has proved he can't do it in practice.

I am not disagreeing with you Rav. I was just explaining a scenario where all three Qb's could get time with the #1's in PS without having to play all the #1's for an extended period of time. You do bring up a point with the 3rd PS game.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 11:25 AM
I believe the word "entitled" comes to mind. Earn it in practice.

Here is the double standard and hypocrisy of Orton fans with this earn it bull crap.

You all insist Tebow should earn in practice the very thing that was HANDED to Orton. :rolleyes:

Chris Simms, by all accounts, out performed Orton last pre-season especially at the Invesco Practice at Mile High (Orton hears a Boo!). Simms performance was so strong that McMoron had to come out and insist and reiterate that Orton would be the starter. Who could blame him either? :confused: You just traded a young probowl QB in part for Orton. It would be a COMPLETE disaster if that QB coming in (Orton) was beat out by a guy who hadn't been in the NFL for a while due to injury (simms).

Orton was handed the job. Even McDaniels lost faith in Orton after his first season here.

So the entitlement rests squarely with the Orton crowed in demanding that Tebow do something Orton never had to do :coffee:

Northman
08-13-2011, 11:29 AM
Plus, now you are asking that the starting OL, WR, RBs, and everyone ELSE play 3 times as long purely for the QB... while the depth players get 3 times LESS playing time.

Actually, not true.

You could just give each QB a preseason game to start and let Orton run with the scrubs. He should put up wonderful numbers by then.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 11:59 AM
You all insist Tebow should earn in practice the very thing that was HANDED to Orton. :rolleyes:



No it wasn't, jhil. Orton CLEARLY is outperforming Tebow during their practices. How is that being handed the job?

Lonestar
08-13-2011, 12:00 PM
Here is the double standard and hypocrisy of Orton fans with this earn it bull crap.

You all insist Tebow should earn in practice the very thing that was HANDED to Orton. :rolleyes:

Chris Simms, by all accounts, out performed Orton last pre-season especially at the Invesco Practice at Mile High (Orton hears a Boo!). Simms performance was so strong that McMoron had to come out and insist and reiterate that Orton would be the starter. Who could blame him either? :confused: You just traded a young probowl QB in part for Orton. It would be a COMPLETE disaster if that QB coming in (Orton) was beat out by a guy who hadn't been in the NFL for a while due to injury (simms).

Orton was handed the job. Even McDaniels lost faith in Orton after his first season here.

So the entitlement rests squarely with the Orton crowed in demanding that Tebow do something Orton never had to do :coffee:

Just maybe he saw something in practice from teh two of them and KNEW simms was not the guy as evidenced by his shaky 15 minutes of non fame when Orton was injured.

You guys really amaze me..

eveyone calling for simms and then when he got the chance everyone wanted him cut..

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:03 PM
No it wasn't, jhil. Orton CLEARLY is outperforming Tebow during their practices. How is that being handed the job?

Simms was clearly out performing Orton through much of camp and especially at the Invesco practice (Orton hears a Boo!). It was so bad that McD had to actually come out and reiterate/insist Orton was the starter.

There was no way in hell McD was going to have anybody but Orton start after trading a probowl QB for Orton and others. McD did a lot wrong but he understood perfectly how bad it would look if the QB obtained in the trade for Cutler was beat out by a guy who had been out of football for a considerable amount of time due to injury.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Actually, not true.

You could just give each QB a preseason game to start and let Orton run with the scrubs. He should put up wonderful numbers by then.

Yeah, that was already brought up and I responded.

But the team vets don't play as much in the 1st and 4th game as they do the 2nd and 3rd (especially the third). So one of the QBs would be getting a BIG advantage, while the others a big disadvantage. I only say this because its just something else people would complain about or use as excuses. It's like when people "complain" that the team didn't "even try" to win a pre-season game...as if anyone gives a shit.

I just don't see the pre-season as being the determining factor between the QBs that some of you do. They are not going to make that determination on the pre-season games.... not when Tebow has clearly shown he's not close to Orton DURING practices.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 12:04 PM
Simms was clearly out performing Orton through much of camp and especially at the Invesco practice (Orton hears a Boo!). It was so bad that McD had to actually come out and reiterate/insist Orton was the starter.

There was no way in hell McD was going to have anybody but Orton start after trading a probowl QB for Orton and others. McD did a lot wrong but he understood perfectly how bad it would look if the QB obtained in the trade for Cutler was beat out by a guy who had been out of football for a considerable amount of time due to injury.

Ok. But what does that have a single thing to do with now? That was two seasons ago.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:06 PM
Just maybe he saw something in practice from teh two of them and KNEW simms was not the guy as evidenced by his shaky 15 minutes of non fame when Orton was injured.

You guys really amaze me..

eveyone calling for simms and then when he got the chance everyone wanted him cut..

I wasn't calling for Simms. However, even the media had made some mentions that perhaps Simms might be the better option. McD put the kabosh on that knowing how bad it would look if the QB he traded for was beat out by a QB who had been out of football.

As for Simms poor performance. We now know that doesn't rest solely on his shoulders. As we have learned Orton got all the reps. Tebow wasn't given any instruction throughout the year and Simms was running scout team and had little or no reps. Again another F job by your boy wonder.

By the way, LS, my MHS aren't for you to continue the debate. Use the MHS the right way and keep the dialogue in the thread!

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:08 PM
Ok. But what does that have a single thing to do with now? That was two seasons ago.

Everything. Orton was handed the very job people are insisting Tebow earn.

He was handed it again last season, too. It may have been by default due to McD's COMPLETE INEPTITUDE as a HC in trading for Quinn and drafting Tebow. Those two had no experience with the playbook or system. We also know once TC progressed only Orton was getting reps. We also know that it was clear the McD had lost confidence in Orton and he was convinced to see it through.

Lonestar
08-13-2011, 12:09 PM
I wasn't calling for Simms. However, even the media had made some mentions that perhaps Simms might be the better option. McD put the kabosh on that knowing how bad it would look if the QB he traded for was beat out by a QB who had been out of football.

As for Simms poor performance. We now know that doesn't rest solely on his shoulders. As we have learned Orton got all the reps. Tebow wasn't given any instruction throughout the year and Simms was running scout team and had little or no reps. Again another F job by your boy wonder.

By the way, LS, my MHS aren't for you to continue the debate. Use the MHS the right way and keep the dialogue in the thread!

I do not beleive that for a second..

Simms was a mistake from day one IF his performance in the games he was in shows anything at all.

IF he was the answer then where is he starting now.

If you have a problem with my MHS report them.. there was nothing out of line in them..

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:13 PM
I do not beleive that for a second..

Simms was a mistake from day one

Are you actually acknowledging Joshy made a mistake? :confused:


IF his performance in the games he was in shows anything at all.

Again a direct result of Joshy not knowing how to coach and being handed the reigns to soon.



IF he was the answer then where is he starting now.

Nobody is saying he was the answer. Do you not comprehend the debate. At the time of the open practice at Mile High, many had commented that Simms had outperformed orton. Orton still started. After that, Simms wasn't given the reps or preparation to be ready in the event Orton went down. We all saw the result-DISASTER.

Thanks for making me remember another of boy wonder's wonderous debacles :mad:

If you have a problem with my MHS report them.. there was nothing out of line in them..[/QUOTE]

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 12:14 PM
Everything. Orton was handed the very job people are insisting Tebow earn.

He was handed it again last season, too. It may have been by default due to McD's COMPLETE INEPTITUDE as a HC in trading for Quinn and drafting Tebow. Those two had no experience with the playbook or system. We also know once TC progressed only Orton was getting reps. We also know that it was clear the McD had lost confidence in Orton and he was convinced to see it through.

I think you are going way overboard. This coaching staff has nothing to do with the last.

Also, its been VERY VERY clear that Orton has been the better QB. Thats not being HANDED the job. Orton has TAKEN the job, so much so, that the coaches pretty much nullified that there could even BE a competition for the job because its not..even... close.

You know I hate McD as much as anyone....but seriously.. why is he in this conversation? He has nothing to do with what you are claiming. It sounds like some wild conspiracy theory the way you are twisting things.

Orton was NOT handed the job this season. We went in with the expectations of being a QB competition. But it was Soooo obvious from very early on, that Fox just ended alllllll the speculation and disstractions and called Orton to be the starter.

Nomad
08-13-2011, 12:15 PM
I'd like to see each get their chance with the starters. Perhaps start Quinn against the Bills, with Tebow coming in as 2nd, Orton 3rd. Tebow starts in the 3rd game, Orton 2nd, Quinn 3rd! And the 4th game the best out of the 3 starts.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:23 PM
I think you are going way overboard. This coaching staff has nothing to do with the last.

I never said it did. I simply stated that Orton's first year he was handed the job. Politics with the Cutler trade all but demanded that be the case.



You know I hate McD as much as anyone....but seriously.. why is he in this conversation? He has nothing to do with what you are claiming. It sounds like some wild conspiracy theory the way you are twisting things.

He is in this conversation because he is not only the reason Orton is here but he extended him with a contract that saddled the team with him!

The TC reports are there, and were posted here and other places, that stated Simms looked better of the two. I am not twisting anything nor making a conspiracy.

The fact is McD wasn't going to have anybody start but Orton for the reasons I stated. It is understandable, too. You trade a PB young QB for Orton (in part) and then Orton gets beat at TC. That would have essentially done McD in right there!



Orton was NOT handed the job this season.

From the minute Fox and Elway were handed the job the quote has been: "If the season were to start today, Orton is our starter." Some speculated that was to protect his trade value. I stated way back then Orton wouldn't garner the interest many thought. I digress, that is a different ball of wax.



We went in with the expectations of being a QB competition.

Well, if it is a true competition, than I would think after the Dallas game, we might see Quinn and Tebow get a couple reps with the 1's based on their performance.



But it was Soooo obvious from very early on, that Fox just ended alllllll the speculation and disstractions and called Orton to be the starter.

Again, does that indicate a true and open competition? :confused: Or does that point to appeasing the vets and locker room? :confused:

For me (I stress ME as in my opinion) if this is a true and open competition, than Quinn and Tebow at least have earned a few reps with the #1's based on how all 3 performed against Dallas.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 12:29 PM
For me it is clear that Orton is as good as gone after this year. Playing him only serves to help Orton get the contract he seeks. So while he may be the best chance to win as some say (I don't agree) what good does that do this team if he is going to be gone anyway? :confused:

PAINTERDAVE
08-13-2011, 12:42 PM
No it wasn't, jhil. Orton CLEARLY is outperforming Tebow during their practices. How is that being handed the job?

NOT ONCE has tebow or quinn been allowed to work
with the first teamers in practice or scrimmage.

That IS handing Orton the job right out of the gate.

Heck.. Fox said it all along...

"Kyle is our starter.. we will have competition."

Only deal is.. the competiton is mis-matched when Kyle is with all the starters
and The others are with the scrubs.

Eh. it is what it is.

we aint gonna win a bunch anyway..
soon enough we will see how EFX choose to play out
the QB contoversy in the 2nd half once the team is in the tank.

I seriously doubt EFX will have a strong loyalty to a free agent
who is itching to go to another team...

Once we are say..
2 and 5.....
they will have a choice...

invest the Bronco QB time in showcasing Free agent Orton's talent (or lack thereof)
or investng the balance of the season in finding out what the young guns have.

It will all shake down soon enough.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 12:46 PM
NOT ONCE has tebow or quinn been allowed to work
with the first teamers in practice or scrimmage.

That IS handing Orton the job right out of the gate.

Heck.. Fox said it all along...

"Kyle is our starter.. we will have competition."

Only deal is.. the competiton is mis-matched when Kyle is with all the starters
and The others are with the scrubs.



I gotta say Dave, thats complete horseshit.

PAINTERDAVE
08-13-2011, 12:55 PM
Ortn is a swell practice player..
he has looked good in practice..

but that does not change that he was also handed the slot of starter.

Call it horse crap if you want..
it is what it is.

Kyle has not played with the 2nd string at all...

he was handed the job of starter...

the fact that the younger guys have not "beat him out" does not
change the silver spoon they stuck in his mouth.

everlasting0
08-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Tim will start for all you doubters...Tim Tebow will bring excitement and winning back to the Mile High City...

MNPatsFan
08-13-2011, 02:18 PM
For me it is clear that Orton is as good as gone after this year. Playing him only serves to help Orton get the contract he seeks. So while he may be the best chance to win as some say (I don't agree) what good does that do this team if he is going to be gone anyway? :confused:Well for one, I think it is in both the Broncos and TT's best long term interest for TT to sit, watch and learn - and I don't mean from Orton. Everything I heard when TT was drafted was that he was going to have to change his mechanics and learn to be a pro-style QB. That takes time (have heard a number of former QBs and QB coaches say its a 2-3 year process) and lots of repetition IN PRACTICE to make it all natural and second nature. If he plays too much too early before those changes are natural and second nature, TT will revert to his college form and mechanics.

If the Orton and the Broncos suck and the Broncos end up with a high pick then the Broncos have the option of drafting Luck or the other QB top prospect (forgot his name) or a premier D-lineman.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 02:35 PM
Well for one, I think it is in both the Broncos and TT's best long term interest for TT to sit, watch and learn - and I don't mean from Orton. Everything I heard when TT was drafted was that he was going to have to change his mechanics and learn to be a pro-style QB. That takes time (have heard a number of former QBs and QB coaches say its a 2-3 year process) and lots of repetition IN PRACTICE to make it all natural and second nature. If he plays too much too early before those changes are natural and second nature, TT will revert to his college form and mechanics.

If the Orton and the Broncos suck and the Broncos end up with a high pick then the Broncos have the option of drafting Luck or the other QB top prospect (forgot his name) or a premier D-lineman.

Why not play Tebow now then. Orton is as good as gone. If we end up with Luck/Barkley than what becomes of Tebow? :confused:

You might as well play Tebow now. The worst that happens is you figure out the guy isn't your guy and you have tape on him to get something in a trade. A team who can sit on Tebow (NO) might take that chance.

Playing Orton only gives the guy every opportunity to play his way into the contract he wants all while setting the Broncos back a year.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 02:51 PM
Why not play Tebow now then. Orton is as good as gone.



For the same reasons as last week and the week before. Because the coaching staff and players aren't willing to simply "throw in the towel" and start a player that has proved NOT to be as good as another on the roster.

The coaches don't have the luxury of simply throwing out seasons. Veteran players want to feel the coaching staff is putting the player on the field that gives them the BEST chance to win, and right now, they wholeheartedly believe thats Orton because Orton makes the proper reads.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 02:57 PM
For the same reasons as last week and the week before. Because the coaching staff and players aren't willing to simply "throw in the towel" and start a player that has proved NOT to be as good as another on the roster.

The coaches don't have the luxury of simply throwing out seasons. Veteran players want to feel the coaching staff is putting the player on the field that gives them the BEST chance to win, and right now, they wholeheartedly believe thats Orton because Orton makes the proper reads.

I have few problems with this. One, the coaching staff nor FO are in any way tied to any of the 3 QB's. Two, I don't think anybody in Bronco country are going to hold EFX accountable for this season when McMoron left it in complete disarray and disaster. Their clock starts ticking the minute they select "their QB."

Three, and maybe most importantly, this idea of losing the locker room (especially when people reference Griese/Brister) is complete crap. A good many of the veterans who might pitch a fit about Tebow being given a chance aren't going to be here when it matters. This team is rebuilding and part of that is playing your youth much the way KC did. They rubbed a few folks raw but you have to do it to rebuild and get the players the genuine experience they need-game experience.

I laugh when people compare "losing the locker room" to the Griese/Brister episode because that LR had a legitimate gripe. A). Brister won games and a decent amount of them when Elway went down. B). That was a team coming off its 2nd consecutive SB and could have been 3 peaters. This year's team doesn't have PO aspirations let alone SB aspirations. Let's just hope they can stop the run by year's end because it doesn't look like we are too improved there yet.

MNPatsFan
08-13-2011, 03:09 PM
Why not play Tebow now then. Orton is as good as gone. If we end up with Luck/Barkley than what becomes of Tebow? :confused:If Tebow makes the appropriate and necessary progress, you don't draft Luck/Barkley and you start Tebow next season similar to the Green Bay Packers strategy of letting Rodgers watch, learn and fix his mechanics for years before giving him the opportunity to be the full-time starter.


You might as well play Tebow now. The worst that happens is you figure out the guy isn't your guy and you have tape on him to get something in a trade. A team who can sit on Tebow (NO) might take that chance.Yes, you can play Tebow now, but then you are risking destroying his best chance to be a pro-style QB. No the worst that can happen is Tebow is the second coming of Tavaris Jackson - a very athletically gifted and talented QB who was never allowed to sit and learn to be a pro-style QB. (I actually think TT is/was a more pro-style QB coming out of the draft than TJ)


Playing Orton only gives the guy every opportunity to play his way into the contract he wants all while setting the Broncos back a year.If Orton plays his way into the contract he wants then you and all Broncos fans will or should be very happy because that will mean that he and the Broncos had a very successful season. Not sure why this is even an issue?:confused:

Orton doing well = Broncos doing well should = true Broncos fans being :elefant:

Isn't this what you and all true Broncos fans want?:confused:

Bugs Baloney
08-13-2011, 03:16 PM
YES!

I honestly believe if Quinn was given reps with the first team, he
would win the job....

Davii
08-13-2011, 03:16 PM
The starter gets reps with 1st team, period. If T2 outperforms Orton with the 2nd team around him then he will move up to 1st team, then he can rep with the 1s.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 03:17 PM
If Tebow makes the appropriate and necessary progress, you don't draft Luck/Barkley and you start Tebow next season similar to the Green Bay Packers strategy of letting Rodgers watch, learn and fix his mechanics for years before giving him the opportunity to be the full-time starter.

Yes, you can play Tebow now, but then you are risking destroying his best chance to be a pro-style QB. No the worst that can happen is Tebow is the second coming of Tavaris Jackson - a very athletically gifted and talented QB who was never allowed to sit and learn to be a pro-style QB. (I actually think TT is/was a more pro-style QB coming out of the draft than TJ)


Fair enough. But let's remember that A Rodgers came in for an injured Favre. The consensus was he wasn't ready. GB was in a panick. The kid got to play and it turns out the rest is history. Rodgers was reported not ready. He played and the experience from playing might have been more help for him that sitting.




If Orton plays his way into the contract he wants then you and all Broncos fans will or should be very happy because that will mean that he and the Broncos had a very successful season. Not sure why this is even an issue?:confused:
Orton doing well = Broncos doing well should = true Broncos fans being :elefant:

Isn't this what you and all true Broncos fans want?:confused:

Orton doing well does not necessarily equal the Broncos doing well. Look at the numbers he was putting up last year while on a tear to 3 total wins.

Orton will be playing for himself before playing to win. He will be playing to protect is TD/INT ratio first. He wont be taking chances. We have already heard him hide behind scheme and plays. He will hide behind it again in FA when teams ask how come he couldn't win.

Northman
08-13-2011, 03:28 PM
Fair enough. But let's remember that A Rodgers came in for an injured Favre. The consensus was he wasn't ready. GB was in a panick. The kid got to play and it turns out the rest is history. Rodgers was reported not ready. He played and the experience from playing might have been more help for him that sitting.




Orton doing well does not necessarily equal the Broncos doing well. Look at the numbers he was putting up last year while on a tear to 3 total wins.

Orton will be playing for himself before playing to win. He will be playing to protect is TD/INT ratio first. He wont be taking chances. We have already heard him hide behind scheme and plays. He will hide behind it again in FA when teams ask how come he couldn't win.

Exactly. While a Qb may have success or even pretty numbers doesnt mean that he is the best thing for that franchise. Even with their SB win Baltimore was never sold on Dilfer as their FQB. Even though they still didnt find that guy (although they are trying with Flacco) they had some success but not because of said QB.

MNPatsFan
08-13-2011, 03:36 PM
Fair enough. But let's remember that A Rodgers came in for an injured Favre. The consensus was he wasn't ready. GB was in a panick. The kid got to play and it turns out the rest is history. Rodgers was reported not ready. He played and the experience from playing might have been more help for him that sitting.Yes, Rodgers came in for Favre 7 games during his first three seasons, but he didn't start any of those games. Always easier to come into a game and do well, rather than start the game and do well because the other team's D prepared for Favre, not Rodgers. Never said that limited playing time is a BAD thing. In fact it might be a good thing because it gives Rodgers/Tebow a chance to try implementing what they have been working on in limited live game action.


Orton doing well does not necessarily equal the Broncos doing well. Look at the numbers he was putting up last year while on a tear to 3 total wins.Okay, I will take your word for it because I admittedly did not watch the Broncos much last season.


Orton will be playing for himself before playing to win.This is pure speculation/opinion, not fact. No one but Orton knows if this is true.


He will be playing to protect is TD/INT ratio first. He wont be taking chances.I don't know any coaches, including Mike Martz, who don't want their QBs to protect or limit their TD/INT ration. Similarly, those coaches DON'T WANT their QBs to take chances. They want their QBs to make the safe play and kick the FG rather than turn the ball over or punt the ball to the other team rather than hand the ball to the other team deep in the Broncos end of the field. That is what I would want my QBs to do unless the chance is placing the ball ONLY where the Bronco/Patriot could get it. *Obviously not talking about end of half or game situations where throw the ball up*


We have already heard him hide behind scheme and plays. He will hide behind it again in FA when teams ask how come he couldn't win.Again, this may be true and I will take your word for it.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 03:37 PM
I have few problems with this. One, the coaching staff nor FO are in any way tied to any of the 3 QB's.
They aren't being attached to the QBs, they are attached to winning. The coaches know their jobs rely on winning. They know the NFL is "Not For Long"..and simply tossing a season away, even if they were to be given another, means they are already in the hole.. and "given away" season on THEIR record (please don't t hink for a moment that a coach doesn't care about his win loss career record).


Two, I don't think anybody in Bronco country are going to hold EFX accountable for this season when McMoron left it in complete disarray and disaster. Their clock starts ticking the minute they select "their QB."
Thats easy for you to say, but do you think Fox is simply going to take your word for it? They want to come in and turn the team around. Thats what they were hired to do. They know the fans will absolutely rally around WINS, and winning cures all ales. Thus, starting the player (and this goes for ALLLLL Positions on the field) that gives them the BEST chance for success early is the way they are going to go, and it makes sense.


Three, and maybe most importantly, this idea of losing the locker room (especially when people reference Griese/Brister) is complete crap. A good many of the veterans who might pitch a fit about Tebow being given a chance aren't going to be here when it matters.
Sorry jhil, but this is your worst point yet. Do you think that the coaches and the vets give a rat's ass about the future of this team? No. They care about the NOW of this team. They are on the team now, they are coaching the team NOW, and they are worried about this season.. NOW.

Elway himself recounted when he was in the locker room and he RELIED and BELIEVED, and EXPECTED the coaches to put the players on teh field that gave them the BEST chance to win each week. Period. Simple as that. If you start putting players in the starting roster in week ONE when the record is the same as everyone else (0-0).. then you are telling THEM the season is simply an "experiment." Do you think the FA's that you just brought into the locker room are going to appreciate that? Do you think the veterans that are taking paycuts are going to appreciate that? Do you think you are going to have anyone go above and beyond when they know the coaching staff doesn't give a "shit" how this team does?


Look, I get why everyone wants Tebow...because I've been saying the SAME thing since game 1 when he was drafted. But I absolutely understand if Tebow isn't even good enough to come CLOSE to Orton. If Tebow was even CLOSE, then you could justify the lack of experience and start the young kid. But he's not....even.... close. Which means there is a BIG BIG gap, and a BIG BIG DROP...by starting Tebow over Orton (in the coaches mind as far as playing quarterback... and not just better athlete).

If they start Tebow, and the team absolutely tanks.. you don't think the press will be constantly asking the question "why didn't you start Orton when you knew he was the better option?" If you don't, you are fooling yourself. He would be crucified to that decision. But starting Orton now, the guy that has PROVED to be the best QB on the team, gives them a chance to MOVE TO Tebow later on without having to deal with the political nightmare that surrounds TT.

MNPatsFan
08-13-2011, 03:42 PM
Exactly. While a Qb may have success or even pretty numbers doesnt mean that he is the best thing for that franchise. Even with their SB win Baltimore was never sold on Dilfer as their FQB. Even though they still didnt find that guy (although they are trying with Flacco) they had some success but not because of said QB.Not saying that Orton is the best long term solution for the Broncos. TT might be, but needs to work on becoming a pro-style QB more and longer.

My point was show me a QB who put up great Pro Bowl numbers, but whose team won ONLY 3-5 games. Don't think you will be able to ID any, but if you do, I look forward to learning who the QBs are because I can't think of any off the top of my head. Hell Matt Cassell didn't put up great Pro-Bowl numbers, but he led the Pats to a 10-6 record and got the contract he wanted.

nevcraw
08-13-2011, 03:55 PM
1. I would have loved to see Orton deal with that horrible 2nd string OL Tebow had in the Dallas game.
2. I am fine Orton winning th job based on practise as long as Fox is willing to change his mind during the season if he continues his pattern as a non closer / stat queen. If they do not win early with Orton then there is no point whatsoever to play him and should let Tebow show what he's got.

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 04:09 PM
No. They care about the NOW of this team. They are on the team now, they are coaching the team NOW, and they are worried about this season.. NOW.

How'd that philosphy work out for Herm Edwards in KC. He had that same mentality! Haley doesn't. He played the young guys. He rubbed some raw. I think Haley is a douche and not near the coach Herm is but he understands that playing is the best experience and he threw the young guys in to get them the experience that matters- GAME EXPERIENCE!

Shanahan was starting to get that as well. Clady was a great pass blocker but not so much a run blocker. He was given the job from day one to lose. I dont recall there being a huge revolt in the Locker Room.



Do you think the FA's that you just brought into the locker room are going to appreciate that?

Who gives a rats ass if they appreciate it? :confused: They are professionals and they best play their ass off regardless of whom the coach selects at any position. If they don't it will be on film and teams will see it. If they don't they wont be in the Not For Long league you mention.



Do you think the veterans that are taking paycuts are going to appreciate that?

Who specifically? Dawk? Ty Warren? Personally neither of those guys are going to be here long anyway. If it weren't for this team who knows where'd they be i.e. Jamal Williams. You think I care if the team would have upset him last year?

Personally, I think Dawk is a precarious situation as well. His presence is needed but more as a mentor to Moore and Carter. I would rather them get the bulk of the playing time. That is the only way we are going to get them the experience that matters-game experience.


Do you think you are going to have anyone go above and beyond when they know the coaching staff doesn't give a "shit" how this team does?

How would selecting Tebow send the message that this coaching staff does not give a shit about this season? :confused: Who is running the show here, the coaches or the players? Mutiny was possible under McMoron. We damn near had it. Fox aint that type of guy! He won't tolerate any of what you suggest.



Look, I get why everyone wants Tebow...because I've been saying the SAME thing since game 1 when he was drafted. But I absolutely understand if Tebow isn't even good enough to come CLOSE to Orton. If Tebow was even CLOSE, then you could justify the lack of experience and start the young kid. But he's not....even.... close. Which means there is a BIG BIG gap, and a BIG BIG DROP...by starting Tebow over Orton (in the coaches mind as far as playing quarterback... and not just better athlete).

If they start Tebow, and the team absolutely tanks.. you don't think the press will be constantly asking the question "why didn't you start Orton when you knew he was the better option?" If you don't, you are fooling yourself. He would be crucified to that decision. But starting Orton now, the guy that has PROVED to be the best QB on the team, gives them a chance to MOVE TO Tebow later on without having to deal with the political nightmare that surrounds TT.

Tebow put up more points as an average than Orton. Tebow had the #1 overall D as the final test. It is about scoring TD's in this league not settling for FG's. That is the point of the offense. If Tebow scored more on average than Orton, I don't know how one can conclude Orton is so much better. Not to mention Orton's record isn't exactly a testament or support for your argument!

You continue to rely so much on PRACTICE (Allen Iverson :hi:). This same reasoning is what kept Hillis on the bench. His practice performance. However, we knew come game day what we would see from the guy.

All I am saying is I don't put near the stock into practice that you seem to. I do with gameday. Tebows three starts last year were leaps and bounds better than anything I watched from Orton at any point last season. We saw a D that fed off the O and contributed in the Houston win with a game ending INT. That wouldn't be possible with Orton as the 3 and outs would have all but assured that there would be no gas left in the tank of the D.

Finally, Tebow NOR Quinn got near the reps with the #1's that Orton has so how can we honestly conclude it is a fair, and open competition? Add into it the entire off season of statements that Orton is our starter and it begins to look less open and fair!

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 04:11 PM
1. I would have loved to see Orton deal with that horrible 2nd string OL Tebow had in the Dallas game.
I made a similar comment in the game day thread. It appeared as though the line didn't nearly compete as hard for Tebow. In the end, the guy still made more plays!

jhildebrand
08-13-2011, 04:18 PM
Not saying that Orton is the best long term solution for the Broncos. TT might be, but needs to work on becoming a pro-style QB more and longer.

My point was show me a QB who put up great Pro Bowl numbers, but whose team won ONLY 3-5 games. Don't think you will be able to ID any, but if you do, I look forward to learning who the QBs are because I can't think of any off the top of my head. Hell Matt Cassell didn't put up great Pro-Bowl numbers, but he led the Pats to a 10-6 record and got the contract he wanted.

Dave Krieg and the 7-9 89 Seahawks may be the closest.
Jeff Blake and Cinci in 95 at 7-9

Ravage!!!
08-13-2011, 09:57 PM
How'd that philosphy work out for Herm Edwards in KC. He had that same mentality! Haley doesn't. He played the young guys. He rubbed some raw. I think Haley is a douche and not near the coach Herm is but he understands that playing is the best experience and he threw the young guys in to get them the experience that matters- GAME EXPERIENCE!

Like who? You keep mentioning the chiefs had all these rookies. Yet they had a vet QB, Vet WRs, Vet OL, bringing in Vet RBs........ seems to be a theme here.


Shanahan was starting to get that as well. Clady was a great pass blocker but not so much a run blocker. He was given the job from day one to lose. I dont recall there being a huge revolt in the Locker Room.

Dude, cut this crap out. For one, there wasn't a single person on the roster that could play at Clady's level. TWO... an OL isn't the QB... the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION IN SPORTS.. not to mention the football team. Quit comparing the two and acting as if ANY position, that has the starting job, is the same thing. Its not.


Who gives a rats ass if they appreciate it? :confused: They are professionals and they best play their ass off regardless of whom the coach selects at any position. If they don't it will be on film and teams will see it. If they don't they wont be in the Not For Long league you mention.
:lol: You are funny. I don't kjnow if you are being serious with this part or not, because its just... silly.

The veteran players care. The COACHES care because THEIR record is a refection on what they do. The FA's care, and you can't make promises of bringing these guys in with the hopes of IMPROVING the team, and turn around and play a QB that is NOT READY for the NFL. You don't think playesr talk to one another? You don't think this matters to FA's??? :confused: Where have you been?


You think I care if the team would have upset him last year?
here's the problem. The team doesn't CARE what YOU think. They are looking out for whats best for THEM... and THEY believe its best to win NOW. The players know, and the coaching staff knows, that the fans are as fickle as SHIT. You win, they love you. but the next week they hate you. You are going to be a fan forever no matter what. They don't have that luxury.


How would selecting Tebow send the message that this coaching staff does not give a shit about this season? :confused: Who is running the show here, the coaches or the players? Mutiny was possible under McMoron. We damn near had it. Fox aint that type of guy! He won't tolerate any of what you suggest.
Dude, you are spinning in circles so much you don't know which direction you are headed. The COACHES want to win now, and the COACHES are the ones selecting Orton as the starting guy, remember? YOu just complained that Fox GAVE Orton the job. *points upward towards your post*

As far as answering your first question. Pretty simple. The players ALllllll knowwho is playing BETTER in practice. They all go over the practice tapes, they know who's making the better decisions and playing BETTER on the field. If the coaches know it, and the players know it.. yet they turn around and put a lesser player in the starting role simply because his name is Tebow... that says they don't give a shit about the record. I know thats how players would feel about it, and I KNOW what it feels like to be on a team that the coaches are basically passing on because they are "Rebuilding." It sucks, and NO one wants to give that "extra" effort for a team that isn't even really trying to be the best they can THIS year, and only looking forward to NEXT or the NEXT. Its just a natural reaction.



All I am saying is I don't put near the stock into practice that you seem to. I do with gameday.
First of all, tahts purely speculation on the Hillis situation, and most probably not reality. So lets not put that off as some kind of "fact" when its nothing more than message board rumor. Just as the "he wasn't smart enough for the playbook" crap that was roaming around here as fact.

As for the rest, me? I don't make the decisions for the team, the coaches do. Apparently THEY are giving more stock to practice than YOU would like them too. Strange. The reality is, thats how EVERYONE wins their starting job... by how they perform in practice. If you can't play better than the other guy at your position, you don't win the starting role. If the other guy already HAS the starting role, then you need to perform better than he does to beat him out.

In Tebow's case. ALlllll he had to do, was perform CLOSE to Orton. If he was close, then the coaching staff could justify putting the inexperience on the field early expecting the good and the bad. However, its NOT EVEN CLOSE. ITs not close. There is a HUGE gap as to how badly Tebow reads and recognizes defenses and understands coverages. Thats not MY fault, and its not the coaches fault. They can only go by the evidence put before them, and that evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of Orton right now.

Ron Jaworski said it MONTHS ago after reviewing game film of Tebow playing, and he said then that if Orton was on the roster, he would UNDOUBTEDLY be the starter and would probably remain so for the entire season. Why? Because Tebow is just not ready.


Finally, Tebow NOR Quinn got near the reps with the #1's that Orton has so how can we honestly conclude it is a fair, and open competition?
Seriously jhil? Really? This is the route you have decided to take? Come on man, you are better than this, I know you are. I respect your opinions because they are educated and thought out. But this is just..... ridiculous at best.

I Eat Staples
08-13-2011, 10:51 PM
The fact that Orton played only one series shows that it isn't a competition at all - Orton is the starter, and nothing that happens in preseason is going to change that.

The only chance anyone other than Orton starts a preseason game is the last one, in which Orton may simply be given the day off.

DSMBronco
08-13-2011, 10:59 PM
I would have to agree, unless orton gets hurt or some other starter gets hurt in the pre-season and are willing to pay the price for our starter. Looks like orton will be starting the season, but i also believe that tebow will get some playing time and who knows maybe Fox will like what he sees there.

Lancane
08-13-2011, 11:03 PM
Hell, I understand both your points...

The organization unfortunately is blinded by the McDaniels' fiasco, they believe winning now is what the fans are outright demanding and some are. But more or less the majority wants them to build a team that continually wins and is considered dominant by the league standards as we once were, EG the Patriots, Jets and Steelers. Rav's point should sort of hit home because it's makes absolute sense to the front office that if they win now then the fans will support them. But I do have to state that the organization needs to be weary because the fans have greater say then they may believe, especially when you look at the economy. When you have a venue IE like Denver's in which the fallout in sales is due more to fan dissatisfaction rather then economical, then continually ignoring them could be costly.

I don't think the organization realizes the level of disdain of which has poisoned the fanbase, I believe they're trying to understand, that is why we have Elways openness policy, but he's thinking it's more like what he endured when it's really much, much worse. That's why I keep stating that when the Boos start shaking the stadium, the message boards become alight with contempt based drivel, and like with McDaniels seeps into the local media outlets, then maybe they'll start to get the drift, that while the fans don't have outright say-so, we can show we don't like somethings. Of course they could decide that we're just a maddening populace and either sell the team or move it to a new venue, but of course like I've said earlier Denver is too good a venue to leave open, Kroenke has long been waiting and drooling for it to open up.

Does anyone really know the right answer, because I don't think any of us really do. Maybe those saying to just sit and ride it out have the gist of it or maybe they do not. I was hoping Fox was planning on coming in and slowly build the team into a continual threat for the AFC West, back to what we were for the longest time. I admit that I'm worried that he's going to instead makes us more like the Panthers who only have a winning season now and again, let's face it...he only had three winning seasons by modern standards whilst in Carolina - so it does bother me that right now that is the direction we look like we are headed.

Lonestar
08-14-2011, 08:53 AM
If Tebow makes the appropriate and necessary progress, you don't draft Luck/Barkley and you start Tebow next season similar to the Green Bay Packers strategy of letting Rodgers watch, learn and fix his mechanics for years before giving him the opportunity to be the full-time starter.
Yes, you can play Tebow now, but then you are risking destroying his best chance to be a pro-style QB. No the worst that can happen is Tebow is the second coming of Tavaris Jackson - a very athletically gifted and talented QB who was never allowed to sit and learn to be a pro-style QB. (I actually think TT is/was a more pro-style QB coming out of the draft than TJ)
If Orton plays his way into the contract he wants then you and all Broncos fans will or should be very happy because that will mean that he and the Broncos had a very successful season. Not sure why this is even an issue?:confused:Orton doing well = Broncos doing well should = true Broncos fans being :elefant:
Isn't this what you and all true Broncos fans want?:confused:

Great post was about to say much the same thing. But logically he will never get it because he is emotionally not able to accept any facts other than Orton is a bum. That is his stick and will never be able to change that investment.
But good posting. :salute:

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LTC Pain
08-14-2011, 09:58 AM
After watching Quinn ball out last night with third stringers, I'd really like to see him with the first team.

Quad! Quinn has looked good in practice and in a pre-season game. Give Quinn some first team reps and see what he looks like. EFX said it would be an open competition.

jhildebrand
08-14-2011, 01:09 PM
Like who? You keep mentioning the chiefs had all these rookies. Yet they had a vet QB, Vet WRs, Vet OL, bringing in Vet RBs........ seems to be a theme here.

Come on, Rav! You are better than this to play these kinds of games. Do I really need to educate you or do you just want me to come out and say it.

Since the Hali draft KC has been drafting and playing their rookies since day 1. Hali was close to being labeled a bust, as I mentioned, but there was no help on the D. Now that there is some talent, you see the guy shine (maybe something we should be cautious with Miller).

Here are players KC has drafted and played: Derrick Johnson, Hali, Svitek (how do you think we got Wiegmann???), Jarrad Page (shown the door), Bernard Pollard (another vet shown the door for a rook), McBride, Bowe, Brandon Carr, Barry Richardson, DaJuan Morgan, Jamal Charles, Brandon Flowers, Branden Albert, Glen Dorsey, Donald Washington, Alex Magee, Tyson Jackson, Kendrick Lewis, Toni Moeaki, Javier Arenas, Dexter McCluster, Eric Berry.

So now you are singing the praises of Matt Cassell and treating him like a vet? :confused: We all know your thoughts on Cassell and him being a one hit wonder to the likes of Rob Johnson. Don't ride the fence...what is he?

The fact is there are quite a few vets shown the door in KC so the young guys could play. Brian Waters could see the writing on the wall with the Drafting of Asomoah. Waters was released this summer.



Dude, cut this crap out. For one, there wasn't a single person on the roster that could play at Clady's level. TWO... an OL isn't the QB... the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION IN SPORTS.. not to mention the football team. Quit comparing the two and acting as if ANY position, that has the starting job, is the same thing. Its not.

So then it is ok to say the "best player plays" *wink *wink at the QB position only? :conufsed: Or is it all positions? While I agree the Qb position is the most important, at the end of the day each of the 53 guys WANTS/EXPECTS to get paid.

Also, when GB committed to Rodgers, I am not sure Rodgers was the better of the two at that point in time. When SD committed to SD Rivers was definitely not the better of him and Brees at the time. We didn't see an all out revolt in GB and SD. I didn't see people proclaiming that their switching QB's was declaring the season an "experiment."

Brady was NO WHERE NEAR BLEDSOE in TC nor practice. It was the GAME EXPERIENCE that ushered Brady's development. Not sitting behind a guy like Bledsoe. Bledsoe was better than Romo in Dallas. Same story.

So you can go on about winning it in practice but there are plenty of scenarios by which QB's who aren't considered better than the starter end up starting and eventually keeping the job. Another old NFL unspoken rule that has gone to the wayside-YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR JOB TO INJURY.

Roethlisberger comes to mind, too. Gabbert isn't ready nor polished as Garrard I dont hear them proclaiming the Jax season is going to be a BIG EXPERIMENT.



:lol: You are funny. I don't kjnow if you are being serious with this part or not, because its just... silly.

So Silly that Mark Schlereth and Alfred Williams went on about it and still do :coffee: Guess some former NFL'ers are pretty silly.



The veteran players care. The COACHES care because THEIR record is a refection on what they do. The FA's care, and you can't make promises of bringing these guys in with the hopes of IMPROVING the team, and turn around and play a QB that is NOT READY for the NFL. You don't think playesr talk to one another? You don't think this matters to FA's??? :confused: Where have you been?

But at the end of the day this is the NFL and it is about what is best for the team not what is best for the player. The team will make decisions that some players wont like. The reality is they need to still perform and play hard despite their personal feelings because if they don't it will show on the tape and another team wont take the chances on them that they might have.

Finally, the thought of catering to FA's is laughable. You don't build your team through FA's. You might need one or two to get over the hump but you don't rely on FA for building your team. The Broncos are a perfect example of that. The teams that are winning, GB, Pitt, NO, SD all grew their teams via the draft. So the mere thought of catering to some other team's castoff, who is a castoff for a reason, is SILLY. The reality is they are FA's and chances are they aren't going to be here long whereas the draftees will be.

Finally, catering to FA's is silly from the aspect that 4-12 teams don't get top notch FA's. Why? Because they want to go to "winners" teams that can compete for a SB.



here's the problem. The team doesn't CARE what YOU think. They are looking out for whats best for THEM... and THEY believe its best to win NOW.
Do you really think Orton is going to win more than tebow would with this team? Seriously? How many more wins would Orton get than Tebow.

I see this as a 4-6 win team regardless of QB.



As far as answering your first question. Pretty simple. The players ALllllll knowwho is playing BETTER in practice. They all go over the practice tapes, they know who's making the better decisions and playing BETTER on the field.

Allen Iverson says PRACTICE. Again Bledsoe was the better practice QB than both Brady and Romo. Not one player complained once those guys came in despite the unspoken rule of not losing your job to injury. Maddox was better than Roethlisberger. Again not one player thought Roethlisberger was ready. Maddox was light years ahead and was the better player at practice. Funny things happen and a rookie, every bit as unpolished and nowhere near as decorated in college as Tebow, took the team to 15-1 record.

As far as better decisions on the field, Tebow in the dalls PS game made the better decisions. Orton looked like an ass audibling to the fade threw an incompletion into the gut of ware/spears on the first pass that was lucky not to be a pick 6.

Tell me again how Orton makes better decisions. Oh and then there are the well documented cases of Orton throwing into double coverage to marshall/lloyd and passing over a WIDE OPEN Gaffney/Royal, Graham. On one I recall Gaf streaking down the sideline and would have easily been the game winner.

Lastly, Tebow has 3 games under his belt and he showed every bit the same. Lloyd was perfectly content singing Tebow's praises and being fine with him being the starter. It is only now that Lloyd is starting to reverse course.



If the coaches know it, and the players know it.. yet they turn around and put a lesser player in the starting role simply because his name is Tebow... that says they don't give a shit about the record.

So SD, GB, did that in going to Rodgers and Rivers respectively? :confused:

Is Jax saying they don't give a crap about their record this year if they start Gabbert?


I know thats how players would feel about it, and I KNOW what it feels like to be on a team that the coaches are basically passing on because they are "Rebuilding." It sucks, and NO one wants to give that "extra" effort for a team that isn't even really trying to be the best they can THIS year, and only looking forward to NEXT or the NEXT. Its just a natural reaction.



First of all, tahts purely speculation on the Hillis situation, and most probably not reality. So lets not put that off as some kind of "fact" when its nothing more than message board rumor. Just as the "he wasn't smart enough for the playbook" crap that was roaming around here as fact.

As for the rest, me? I don't make the decisions for the team, the coaches do. Apparently THEY are giving more stock to practice than YOU would like them too. Strange. The reality is, thats how EVERYONE wins their starting job... by how they perform in practice. If you can't play better than the other guy at your position, you don't win the starting role. If the other guy already HAS the starting role, then you need to perform better than he does to beat him out.

In Tebow's case. ALlllll he had to do, was perform CLOSE to Orton. If he was close, then the coaching staff could justify putting the inexperience on the field early expecting the good and the bad. However, its NOT EVEN CLOSE. ITs not close. There is a HUGE gap as to how badly Tebow reads and recognizes defenses and understands coverages. Thats not MY fault, and its not the coaches fault. They can only go by the evidence put before them, and that evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of Orton right now.

Ron Jaworski said it MONTHS ago after reviewing game film of Tebow playing, and he said then that if Orton was on the roster, he would UNDOUBTEDLY be the starter and would probably remain so for the entire season. Why? Because Tebow is just not ready.


Seriously jhil? Really? This is the route you have decided to take? Come on man, you are better than this, I know you are. I respect your opinions because they are educated and thought out. But this is just..... ridiculous at best.[/QUOTE]

The rest of this we'll just have to agree to disagree and let the season play out.

Here is what we can expect to see from Orton-THE EXACT SAME AS LAST YEAR and probably only more safe. Orton will be playing for himself not necessarily to win. He wants that contract and that he will place above winning. 3rd downs will be similar. RZ similar. Record similar. Result similar. Orton will be pulled by the midpoint of the season.