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T.K.O.
08-10-2011, 09:17 AM
from PFT.....

More evidence the Broncos quarterback competition is “over”
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on August 10, 2011, 9:48 AM EDT

We tend to ignore or disregard most everything Rick Reilly writes these days. Call it the Leatherheads effect.

We’ll make an exception for his eye-opening piece on the Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow mess in Denver because Reilly lives in the area, and has close ties to the top of the organization: Broncos Executive VP of Football Operations John Elway.

(Reilly mistakenly calls Elway the team president. Ignore that for now.)

Let’s start with an Elway quote:

“He’s a great young man who is really working hard,” Elway said. “But he didn’t get an offseason to work on [playing from the pocket]. He didn’t get much of that in college. And it’s a completely different thing than the shotgun. Plus, he’s only had the one season. But he’s an amazing football player. I’d never give up on Tim Tebow.”

Whoa. Who said anything about giving up on Tebow? He’s a second year quarterback that lost his biggest supporter (Josh McDaniels) and didn’t get his second offseason. Just the fact Elway’s mind went there is surprising.

Also telling: Reilly’s harsh assessment after getting the low down from Elway. Reilly says the quarterback competition is “over.”

“Orton won by the kind of margin Kim Jong Il wins elections,” he writes.

Tebow is stiff under center and can’t make decisions quickly enough. Something tells us Reilly didn’t suddenly turn into a football scout to make these assessments. They are coming from the Broncos.

“The other way you know it’s over is that Orton is talking to Tebow again,”
The locker room is firmly behind Orton.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/10/more-evidence-the-broncos-quarterback-competition-is-over/

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 09:35 AM
They haven't even played a preseason game yet. :laugh:

MasterShake
08-10-2011, 09:40 AM
Orton will more than likely be the starter, and thats fine by me. Whats going to piss me off though is if when (if?) we are officially elminated from the playoffs they don't plug Tebow in to get him some experience this season.

I'm so over this QB "controversy". Thursday can't come soon enough! We have so many other question marks on this team, I'm really looking forward to the preseason more than usual.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 09:42 AM
They haven't even played a preseason game yet. :laugh:

which says a lot.

If Tebow were "close".. or they felt he was showing the promise to be "the guy".... then we would have heard that by now. As it is, Tebow isn't even close. In fact, many are saying that he's the third best on the roster.

lets be honest. The pre-season games are for the fans. I've heard coaches MANY times state that they could (99% of the time..their words) come up with the same roster without pre-season games. True, there are times when a coach has the chance to see something on the field, but there are scrimmages against other teams that are not 'pre-season games' where coaches can see the same things if they needed to.

Tebow is NOT going to win the starting job because of some pre-season game.

Thats really the important thing to remember when it comes to the pre-season games. Its not going to be the determining factor in our QB controversay.

HammeredOut
08-10-2011, 09:53 AM
Why was Quinn taking a majority of the 2 team snaps earlier this week? Did Tebow get demoted to 3rd string? Or are they going to start this weeks game with Quinn, and finish with Tebow? Or has Quinn gained that much ground on Tebow? Im pretty confused about the Back Up situation. Is Fox thinking his system is better suited for Quinn then a Tim Tebow?

Fox listed Tebow as the back up, but why didn't he take the back up snaps? was that just to keep the fans off his back?

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 09:55 AM
Why was Quinn taking a majority of the 2 team snaps earlier this week? Did Tebow get demoted to 3rd string? Or are they going to start this weeks game with Quinn, and finish with Tebow? Or has Quinn gained that much ground on Tebow? Im pretty confused about the Back Up situation. Is Fox thinking his system is better suited for Quinn then a Tim Tebow?

Fox listed Tebow as the back up, but why didn't he take the back up snaps? was that just to keep the fans off his back?

You need to check your info. They have split the reps with the second team.

Tned
08-10-2011, 09:57 AM
Why was Quinn taking a majority of the 2 team snaps earlier this week? Did Tebow get demoted to 3rd string? Or are they going to start this weeks game with Quinn, and finish with Tebow? Or has Quinn gained that much ground on Tebow? Im pretty confused about the Back Up situation. Is Fox thinking his system is better suited for Quinn then a Tim Tebow?

Fox listed Tebow as the back up, but why didn't he take the back up snaps? was that just to keep the fans off his back?

Most of the TC reports, including yesterday's from Cecil ??? showed Tebow coming in as the 2nd QB. I know Josina said that Quinn took most 2nd team reps, on Monday I think, but that was the first report I saw of that other than day one of TC.

As to Tebow in general, many people, myself included, felt that the person on the Broncos that would be hurt the most by an extended lockout would be Tebow and it would all but kill his chances of winning the starting job.

HammeredOut
08-10-2011, 10:02 AM
You need to check your info. They have split the reps with the second team.

so do you think this is an indication from Fox, that it was never a starting job competition, but really a backup competition between Tebow and Quinn? If they are splitting snaps, that just tells everybody inside the locker room, the competition this preseason is whether to determine or not, Quinn or Tebow will be the back up this season.

Do you think thats a fair statement?

MasterShake
08-10-2011, 10:05 AM
so do you think this is an indication from Fox, that it was never a starting job competition, but really a backup competition between Tebow and Quinn? If they are splitting snaps, that just tells everybody inside the locker room, the competition this preseason is whether to determine or not, Quinn or Tebow will be the back up this season.

Do you think thats a fair statement?

Everything points to Orton being above and beyond all the QBs at training camp, so I think its very fair to see this is more of a Quinn vs Tebow test from here on out. But the Broncos have more invested in Tebow being a 1st round pick so I imagine the scales tip in his favor, plus all of the fan support he has.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 10:11 AM
so do you think this is an indication from Fox, that it was never a starting job competition, but really a backup competition between Tebow and Quinn? If they are splitting snaps, that just tells everybody inside the locker room, the competition this preseason is whether to determine or not, Quinn or Tebow will be the back up this season.

Do you think thats a fair statement?

Yeah. I don't think Tebow is going to be the starter for the Broncos this year. I would say that closest competition for QBs is for the #2 spot. There was a report on ESPN radio from a Denver local broadcaster that was at the TCs reporting (can't rmeember his name) that said it appears to him that Quinn is pbably the best QB in camp.

I think the competition for the starting spot has been won by Orton. That competition is over. Now its up in the air as to who will take over Orton's job about mid-season.

Tned
08-10-2011, 10:13 AM
Everything points to Orton being above and beyond all the QBs at training camp, so I think its very fair to see this is more of a Quinn vs Tebow test from here on out. But the Broncos have more invested in Tebow being a 1st round pick so I imagine the scales tip in his favor, plus all of the fan support he has.

I guess playing Devil's Advocate, I could say they have incentive to turn Quinn into something, so the Hillis plus a 6th and conditional pick doesn't look nearly as horrible -- worst in franchise history, as many in the press called it last year.

Slick
08-10-2011, 10:15 AM
I'm going to need a lot of beer and hippie lettuce to get through this season.

HammeredOut
08-10-2011, 10:18 AM
Yeah. I don't think Tebow is going to be the starter for the Broncos this year. I would say that closest competition for QBs is for the #2 spot. There was a report on ESPN radio from a Denver local broadcaster that was at the TCs reporting (can't rmeember his name) that said it appears to him that Quinn is pbably the best QB in camp.

I think the competition for the starting spot has been won by Orton. That competition is over. Now its up in the air as to who will take over Orton's job about mid-season.

I don't think it really matters who starts between Orton and Tebow. The run game is still pretty far behind. If we don't run the ball better, this team might aswell start Quinn, and shipped off Orton for a 4th rounder.

The difference between a good team and a bad team. The Broncos let teams rush for over 2500 yards on them last season, while only rushing for 1500 yards themselves. A good team like the Steelers only let teams rush for 1000 yards total on them, while the Broncos are letting 1500 more yards on the ground, and blaming Orton.

If this team somehow manages to stop the run, and have average defense, they will be competitive in the division. But if we get ran on like we did last season, and the run game is horrible like it was. We have no real chance. Which is why the team should still trade Orton.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 10:21 AM
I'm going to need a lot of beer and hippie lettuce to get through this season.

I don't drink or do hippie lettuce so I guess I'll just have to find a different copping mechanism.

Nomad
08-10-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm going to need a lot of beer and hippie lettuce to get through this season.

I gotta work so hippie lettuce is out (the piss test thing)but you are on to something with lots of beer!:D And as early as games come on here, I'll be sobered up before I go to bed.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 10:44 AM
I don't think it really matters who starts between Orton and Tebow. The run game is still pretty far behind. If we don't run the ball better, this team might aswell start Quinn, and shipped off Orton for a 4th rounder.

The difference between a good team and a bad team. The Broncos let teams rush for over 2500 yards on them last season, while only rushing for 1500 yards themselves. A good team like the Steelers only let teams rush for 1000 yards total on them, while the Broncos are letting 1500 more yards on the ground, and blaming Orton.

If this team somehow manages to stop the run, and have average defense, they will be competitive in the division. But if we get ran on like we did last season, and the run game is horrible like it was. We have no real chance. Which is why the team should still trade Orton.

Problem is, Orton hurts the running game because teams stack without concern of Kyle. Thats why he "led the league" in the long ball, because teams aren't worried about him beating us with the pass. They will give up the occasioanal long ball when they can consistantly stop him in every other category.

So its a back and forth thing. The teams stack the LoS so that they can get more pressure on Orton. In doing that, Kyle is bad at converting andmoving the chains. He certainly doesn't score TDs, and giving up the long ball from time to time isn't goign to kill them. So the running game that people keep complaining about, has Kyle's fingerprints on them as well.

When we were throwing the ball 600 times back in '08...we were using the 7th RB on the team...teams were playing against the pass for every play, and we were still better. Kyle's "safe play" looks pretty in the INT column, but his lack of TDs shows that he has a lower TD to INT % than most. That LACK of taking chances and hitting the short pass on the quick dumps... is what allows defenses to crowd the LOS.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 10:45 AM
I guess playing Devil's Advocate, I could say they have incentive to turn Quinn into something, so the Hillis plus a 6th and conditional pick doesn't look nearly as horrible -- worst in franchise history, as many in the press called it last year.

Not to mention, we could get a draft pick for him next year if/when a team is looking for a "potential" starting QB. He's young, and if he starts showing that he "Gets it"... someone might take the chance on him.

nevcraw
08-10-2011, 10:49 AM
long season -- you never know what will happen. we have Rob Johnson in front of Doug Flutie.. bet ol wade woudl like a do over on that one..
when the bullets start flying if Orton is not fairing well under pressure Tebow may get a chance to show his meddle. meanwhile he is going to keep working on his footwork and pocket work. as I have said before 3 games and 10 days does not a career make.

Northman
08-10-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm going to need a lot of beer and hippie lettuce to get through this season.

Yeeeeeep.

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 11:01 AM
I don't drink or do hippie lettuce so I guess I'll just have to find a different copping mechanism.

Heroine?

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Problem is, Orton hurts the running game because teams stack without concern of Kyle. Thats why he "led the league" in the long ball, because teams aren't worried about him beating us with the pass. They will give up the occasioanal long ball when they can consistantly stop him in every other category.

So its a back and forth thing. The teams stack the LoS so that they can get more pressure on Orton. In doing that, Kyle is bad at converting andmoving the chains. He certainly doesn't score TDs, and giving up the long ball from time to time isn't goign to kill them. So the running game that people keep complaining about, has Kyle's fingerprints on them as well.

When we were throwing the ball 600 times back in '08...we were using the 7th RB on the team...teams were playing against the pass for every play, and we were still better. Kyle's "safe play" looks pretty in the INT column, but his lack of TDs shows that he has a lower TD to INT % than most. That LACK of taking chances and hitting the short pass on the quick dumps... is what allows defenses to crowd the LOS.

I'd bet that if you polled defensive coordinators about which starting QBs they would rather face Orton would be in the top ten.

He's pretty easy to gameplan against. Blitz him and he falls apart.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 11:19 AM
from PFT.....

More evidence the Broncos quarterback competition is “over”
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on August 10, 2011, 9:48 AM EDT

We tend to ignore or disregard most everything Rick Reilly writes these days. Call it the Leatherheads effect.

We’ll make an exception for his eye-opening piece on the Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow mess in Denver because Reilly lives in the area, and has close ties to the top of the organization: Broncos Executive VP of Football Operations John Elway.

(Reilly mistakenly calls Elway the team president. Ignore that for now.)

Let’s start with an Elway quote:

“He’s a great young man who is really working hard,” Elway said. “But he didn’t get an offseason to work on [playing from the pocket]. He didn’t get much of that in college. And it’s a completely different thing than the shotgun. Plus, he’s only had the one season. But he’s an amazing football player. I’d never give up on Tim Tebow.”

Whoa. Who said anything about giving up on Tebow? He’s a second year quarterback that lost his biggest supporter (Josh McDaniels) and didn’t get his second offseason. Just the fact Elway’s mind went there is surprising.

Also telling: Reilly’s harsh assessment after getting the low down from Elway. Reilly says the quarterback competition is “over.”

“Orton won by the kind of margin Kim Jong Il wins elections,” he writes.

Tebow is stiff under center and can’t make decisions quickly enough. Something tells us Reilly didn’t suddenly turn into a football scout to make these assessments. They are coming from the Broncos.

“The other way you know it’s over is that Orton is talking to Tebow again,”
The locker room is firmly behind Orton.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/10/more-evidence-the-broncos-quarterback-competition-is-over/



A lot of the "experts" and POS analysis say the Broncos are giving up on Tebow....that is why the Miami trade things are coming up. I am glad Elway nipped that in the ass then let the idiots speculate more Tebow trades.

DallasChief
08-10-2011, 11:21 AM
I'd bet that if you polled defensive coordinators about which starting QBs they would rather face Orton would be in the top ten.

He's pretty easy to gameplan against. Blitz him and he falls apart.


Is that easier to game plan against than the jump pass?

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 11:22 AM
which says a lot.

If Tebow were "close".. or they felt he was showing the promise to be "the guy".... then we would have heard that by now. As it is, Tebow isn't even close. In fact, many are saying that he's the third best on the roster.

lets be honest. The pre-season games are for the fans. I've heard coaches MANY times state that they could (99% of the time..their words) come up with the same roster without pre-season games. True, there are times when a coach has the chance to see something on the field, but there are scrimmages against other teams that are not 'pre-season games' where coaches can see the same things if they needed to.

Tebow is NOT going to win the starting job because of some pre-season game.

Thats really the important thing to remember when it comes to the pre-season games. Its not going to be the determining factor in our QB controversay.


Tell me a FO person or coach that has said that? Tell me where Orton was named the starter?

You cant it has not been said.....so enough for speculation that it has been said. Yes he might have been hinted out but Fox keeps saying its a competition. He does not have the confidence in Orton (in my eyes) or else he would have named Orton the starter, no doubt, but he has not. He is letting this get drawn out.

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 11:24 AM
Is that easier to game plan against than the jump pass?

Which of the 32 starting QBs in the NFL is prone to doing jump passes? Try to follow along Chiefs fan. I know you're day dreaming about how bad ass your mullet will look on opening day but we're having football conversations here.

DallasChief
08-10-2011, 11:28 AM
Which of the 32 starting QBs in the NFL is prone to doing jump passes? Try to follow along Chiefs fan. I know you're day dreaming about how bad ass your mullet will look on opening day but we're having football conversations here.

There aren't any starting QBs in the NFL prone to doing jump passes. Just one backup.

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 11:30 AM
The competition may be over. That doesn't mean Tebow's chances of starting are over. Should Orton come out and go 1-2 or 2-4 he can kiss his job goodbye.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 11:32 AM
Heroine?

No but I do have a dog I can kick.

J/K

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 11:32 AM
The competition may be over. That doesn't mean Tebow's chances of starting are over. Should Orton come out and go 1-2 or 2-4 he can kiss his job goodbye.

I wont say anything is over till week 1.....Orton trips over water bottle and sprains pinky.....out for season....need competition for starting QB.

Nomad
08-10-2011, 11:35 AM
The competition may be over. That doesn't mean Tebow's chances of starting are over. Should Orton come out and go 1-2 or 2-4 he can kiss his job goodbye.

If the Raiders kick the BRONCOS ass on Sept 12......he should be one and done!!

CoachChaz
08-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Quinn will be the starter next year and will do surprisingly well. If the lesser talented Kolb can be a hot commodity, Im sure Quinn can thrive in the right setting and this offense may be it.

I said it

Nomad
08-10-2011, 11:56 AM
Quinn will be the starter next year and will do surprisingly well. If the lesser talented Kolb can be a hot commodity, Im sure Quinn can thrive in the right setting and this offense may be it.

I said it

he deserves his chance as well!

Northman
08-10-2011, 11:59 AM
Quinn will be the starter next year and will do surprisingly well. If the lesser talented Kolb can be a hot commodity, Im sure Quinn can thrive in the right setting and this offense may be it.

I said it

Not if he cant improve his long ball accuracy. Apparently thats a big weakness right now.

DallasChief
08-10-2011, 11:59 AM
Quinn will be the starter next year and will do surprisingly well. If the lesser talented Kolb can be a hot commodity, Im sure Quinn can thrive in the right setting and this offense may be it.

I said it

Andew Luck will be the starter next season.

weazel
08-10-2011, 12:01 PM
Orton will more than likely be the starter, and thats fine by me. Whats going to piss me off though is if when (if?) we are officially elminated from the playoffs they don't plug Tebow in to get him some experience this season.

I'm so over this QB "controversy". Thursday can't come soon enough! We have so many other question marks on this team, I'm really looking forward to the preseason more than usual.

Im already looking forward to the draft... :tsk:

PAINTERDAVE
08-10-2011, 12:11 PM
Quinn will be the starter next year and will do surprisingly well. If the lesser talented Kolb can be a hot commodity, Im sure Quinn can thrive in the right setting and this offense may be it.

I said it

That would not surprise me at all...
and I also expect the Broncos to draft another QB next year, too.

This year, rebuilding with Orton at the helm...
I just want to watch for individual accomplishments..
I am not gonna worry about the wins.

Tebow has to show more than he has before anybody is gonna give him a shot.

Tim, Brady and some new draft QB competing next season sounds about right.

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 12:11 PM
I wont say anything is over till week 1.....Orton trips over water bottle and sprains pinky.....out for season....need competition for starting QB.

I don't like Orton but a sprained pinky? :confused: Let's not forget the guy played amazingly well after tearing the tendon almost completely on a finger on his throwing hand. It will take more than a sprained pinky.

Now like someone else said, another ass whoopin by a division opponent and the white towel should be thrown. We have been smeared by each division opponent in recent memory and it gets old quick!

Denver Native (Carol)
08-10-2011, 12:16 PM
I did not have time to read all posts, but IMO - if Orton looks the best in preseason games, he will be the starting QB. But, in no way is the QB competition over IMO - that is not what preseason is for. What ifs will play a major part - what if Orton looks terrible in preseason, what if Tebow or Quinn look much better in preseason - is that NOT what preseason is for?

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 12:25 PM
I don't like Orton but a sprained pinky? :confused: Let's not forget the guy played amazingly well after tearing the tendon almost completely on a finger on his throwing hand. It will take more than a sprained pinky.

Now like someone else said, another ass whoopin by a division opponent and the white towel should be thrown. We have been smeared by each division opponent in recent memory and it gets old quick!


Just saying he has never finished a season uninjured and there is ALWAYS SOMETHING....tearing a tendon on throwing hand? when was this? All I remember was the ankle and ribs.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 12:28 PM
Now like someone else said, another ass whoopin by a division opponent and the white towel should be thrown. We have been smeared by each division opponent in recent memory and it gets old quick!

Now see... you HAD to go there. YOu had to make it alllll about color. Throw in the "white" towel. Couldn't be red towel, or black towel. Couldn't be yellow towel or brown towel. Nooooooo. Had to be "white" towel. Always about whitey. :tsk:

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Just saying he has never finished a season uninjured and there is ALWAYS SOMETHING....tearing a tendon on throwing hand? when was this? All I remember was the ankle and ribs.

The first season he was here. He tore it on a throw when his hand hit a defender's helmet. I think it was the bears preseason game.

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 12:30 PM
Now see... you HAD to go there. YOu had to make it alllll about color. Throw in the "white" towel. Couldn't be red towel, or black towel. Couldn't be yellow towel or brown towel. Nooooooo. Had to be "white" towel. Always about whitey. :tsk:


:lol:

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 12:34 PM
I did not have time to read all posts, but IMO - if Orton looks the best in preseason games, he will be the starting QB. But, in no way is the QB competition over IMO - that is not what preseason is for. What ifs will play a major part - what if Orton looks terrible in preseason, what if Tebow or Quinn look much better in preseason - is that NOT what preseason is for?

I disagree Carol. Tim Tebow will NOT win the starting job based on Pre-season games. He just won't. The coaches already know that Tebow can not identify coverages. He can't find the second WR, and he doesn't understand defenses. All that being said, thats not going to change by watching how he performs against vanilla, plain, no-show, pre-season defenses.

If Tebow is to win the starting job, he'll have to do it in practice where he can show that he can make those reads, call the blocks, find the second WR, and know where to throw the ball.

Tim will NOT win the starting job in pre-season games. I'm just telling you guys that right now so that you don't get your hopes up. The coaches KNOW what Tebow is weak at, and the pre-season games are NOT going to change that because pre-season defenses are not meant to be difficult.

The defenses they read in practice are probably harder than the ones you will see in pre-season games.

Northman
08-10-2011, 12:36 PM
Tim will NOT win the starting job in pre-season games. I'm just telling you guys that right now so that you don't get your hopes up.

Never say never. Bubby Brister thought it wasnt possible either at one time.

:ridinghorse:

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 12:41 PM
I think this team could easily go into next season without Tebow or Orton. I think EFX sees the benefit of Tebow playing 3 games last year. He showed enough to entice teams to consider a trade for him. Look for that to be a possibility again this year. They play him just enough to get something for him. Basically, Tebow would be our Brady Quinn.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 12:41 PM
Never say never. Bubby Brister thought it wasnt possible either at one time.

:ridinghorse:

hah.. true. But at least you heard that Griese already had a better understanding of the playbook than Bubby did. At least you heard it was a close battle in practice. Thats quite the different story than we are hearing here.

But I love the horse!

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 12:51 PM
I think this team could easily go into next season without Tebow or Orton. I think EFX sees the benefit of Tebow playing 3 games last year. He showed enough to entice teams to consider a trade for him. Look for that to be a possibility again this year. They play him just enough to get something for him. Basically, Tebow would be our Brady Quinn.

I dont think so....they will want a 1st rounder nothing less....and nobody would take that trade.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-10-2011, 01:38 PM
I disagree Carol. Tim Tebow will NOT win the starting job based on Pre-season games. He just won't. The coaches already know that Tebow can not identify coverages. He can't find the second WR, and he doesn't understand defenses. All that being said, thats not going to change by watching how he performs against vanilla, plain, no-show, pre-season defenses.

If Tebow is to win the starting job, he'll have to do it in practice where he can show that he can make those reads, call the blocks, find the second WR, and know where to throw the ball.

Tim will NOT win the starting job in pre-season games. I'm just telling you guys that right now so that you don't get your hopes up. The coaches KNOW what Tebow is weak at, and the pre-season games are NOT going to change that because pre-season defenses are not meant to be difficult.

The defenses they read in practice are probably harder than the ones you will see in pre-season games.

I did not just say Tebow, I also said Quinn - reports are that Brady is looking better. He is also in the hunt.

Lancane
08-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I did not just say Tebow, I also said Quinn - reports are that Brady is looking better. He is also in the hunt.

I would laugh my ass off Carol, Quinn comes from out of nowhere and drops a major WTF-Bomb on the Tebowmaniacs and Ortonites, the fallout would be more then worth it, and all the while Mo would be partying his ass off!

:lol:

Northman
08-10-2011, 03:06 PM
I would laugh my ass off Carol, Quinn comes from out of nowhere and drops a major WTF-Bomb on the Tebowmaniacs and Ortonites, the fallout would be more then worth it, and all the while Mo would be partying his ass off!

:lol:

Wouldnt hurt my feelings any. Quinn or Tebow would be my choice over Orton as of now.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 03:45 PM
I did not just say Tebow, I also said Quinn - reports are that Brady is looking better. He is also in the hunt.

Right. Ok. Neither Tebow nore Quinn will win the starting job because of the pre-season games. I stand corrected.

Although it might be the tie-breaker to send Quinn over Tebow.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-10-2011, 03:54 PM
Right. Ok. Neither Tebow nore Quinn will win the starting job because of the pre-season games. I stand corrected.

Although it might be the tie-breaker to send Quinn over Tebow.

What do we all expect? Kyle looks great throwing the ball in shorts.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 04:07 PM
Northman I have to ask.....who is the girl in your avatar?

Northman
08-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Northman I have to ask.....who is the girl in your avatar?

Dont know any last name. But she goes by Bryci. :D

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 04:19 PM
Dont know any last name. But she goes by Bryci. :D

Can I buy one?

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 04:58 PM
What do we all expect? Kyle looks great throwing the ball in shorts.

Then how come Tebow can't? I mean, if Orton can look good throwing the ball in shorts with "no pressure"... then how come Tebow can't throw the ball well and look good in shorts while there is no pressure?

zbeg
08-10-2011, 05:07 PM
The competition may be over. That doesn't mean Tebow's chances of starting are over. Should Orton come out and go 1-2 or 2-4 he can kiss his job goodbye.

Why are we attributing the entire team's win/loss record to one person again?

I know we've tried hard to forget last season, but the defense did give up nearly 30 points per game. I know that it's convenient to blame everything on Orton "the offense sucked so the defense was tired!" but the defense was horrible in the first quarter - the defense that game up 4.7 yards per carry. That one.

Or the defense that had only 18 takeaways - dead last in the league DESPITE having one of the top cornerbacks in the game. That one. How much are you pinning that one on the quarterback?

Teams win games. As in, everyone on the team, not just the quarterback. If you don't agree with me, then you should probably bump Elway (63% career win percentage) below Stan Humphries (65%) on your all-time list of quarterbacks. You know, for consistency's sake.

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 06:15 PM
Why are we attributing the entire team's win/loss record to one person again?

I know we've tried hard to forget last season, but the defense did give up nearly 30 points per game. I know that it's convenient to blame everything on Orton "the offense sucked so the defense was tired!" but the defense was horrible in the first quarter - the defense that game up 4.7 yards per carry. That one.

Or the defense that had only 18 takeaways - dead last in the league DESPITE having one of the top cornerbacks in the game. That one. How much are you pinning that one on the quarterback?

Teams win games. As in, everyone on the team, not just the quarterback. If you don't agree with me, then you should probably bump Elway (63% career win percentage) below Stan Humphries (65%) on your all-time list of quarterbacks. You know, for consistency's sake.

Jeez, people will say anything to defend Orton. I get tired of all the "if he had a Defense" crap. He had a Defense in Chicago. He had a defense his first year here! That D was ranked #1 through week 9 and finished 7th over all.

The fact is QB's and coaches are judged by wins and losses. Sometimes it isn't fair but that is the way it is. As for this being a team game, sure it is! Were we as bad in those areas OR does Orton's presence on the roster amplify/exacerbate those issues. Same O line and Cutler gets sacked 12 times and Orton far more! Teams stack the line with Orton behind center. Why? Because they don't fear his arms or his legs. What is the end result? 8 and even 9 in the box for large portions of the game. What does that mean? It means it becomes harder for our backs to gain yards on the ground.

The reality for me is I have seen enough of Orton. I am not willing to make excuses for him anymore. He has had a D. In fact, with the 7th ranked D and Oak on the schedule twice, a bad KC, and Washington remaining Orton couldn't beat one of those lousy teams. I recall an Indy game with 4 or 5 turnovers and the team couldn't win. You should win when you win the turnover battle. What happened? I remember going for it on several 3rd and 4th and 1's, even in the shadow of our own endzone, and failing miserably. We have a big enough sample size of games to judge Orton accurately. He, IMHO, is a guy who wont win you games nor manage them well. Why do I say that? Because the guy has been shown to miss WIDE open pass catchers (Jabar Gaffney streaking down the side line, Dan Graham with nobody in the viewable TV frame, Eddie Royal) only to check down, hold the ball too long, or force it to Lloyd.

The DC's of this league have written the book on Orton and he has yet to show an adjustment. Let's not forget that many insist he all but quit against KC and AZ last year, too.

By the way, if we are talking about this being a team sport and being about team, that doesn't favor your argument much either considering how divisive and pouty assed Orton was last season.

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 06:38 PM
By the way, before you label Cutler's mobility as the sole reason he was sacked far less, I will remind you that every Orton supporter insisted that he, unlike Jay, would make better decisions and wouldn't hold on to the ball as long.

zbeg
08-10-2011, 06:52 PM
Jeez, people will say anything to defend Orton. I get tired of all the "if he had a Defense" crap. He had a Defense in Chicago. He had a defense his first year here! That D was ranked #1 through week 9 and finished 7th over all.


And Denver's record when the defense played well was better than when it didn't play well - despite having the same starting quarterback! Isn't that weird? I wonder why that is.



The fact is QB's and coaches are judged by wins and losses. Sometimes it isn't fair but that is the way it is.


If you agree that "it isn't fair but that's the way it is," then why would you participate in perpetuating something that you know is wrong? That's basically saying "I know it's wrong, but I'm going to keep saying it anyway because everyone else does it even I know they are wrong, too."

I agree that coaches and QBs (especially QBs) are judged by wins and losses unfairly. And that's why I'm hammering this point - hopefully we're smarter than that and we can realize that it is, in fact, not the best way to measure an individual quarterback's performance, and we can elevate the discussion to something that is rooted in reality, and not "it's unfair but that's the way it is."



As for this being a team game, sure it is! Were we as bad in those areas OR does Orton's presence on the roster amplify/exacerbate those issues. Same O line and Cutler gets sacked 12 times and Orton far more! Teams stack the line with Orton behind center. Why? Because they don't fear his arms or his legs. What is the end result? 8 and even 9 in the box for large portions of the game. What does that mean? It means it becomes harder for our backs to gain yards on the ground.


Sure, it is a team game - and Orton is not faultless by any means. But now we're talking about the context of the team. Orton obviously didn't play defense, yet the defense was the worst in the league by a pretty big margin. If you want to talk about the quarterback's play in the context of the team around him, then that's great. Now we've moved beyond the mindless "HIS RECORDZ WAS 3-10 THATS WAT MATTERS NOM NOM IM EATING GLUE" nonsense that is neither meaningful, nor correct.



The reality for me is I have seen enough of Orton. I am not willing to make excuses for him anymore. He has had a D. In fact, with the 7th ranked D and Oak on the schedule twice, a bad KC, and Washington remaining Orton couldn't beat one of those lousy teams. I recall an Indy game with 4 or 5 turnovers and the team couldn't win. You should win when you win the turnover battle. What happened? I remember going for it on several 3rd and 4th and 1's, even in the shadow of our own endzone, and failing miserably.


Great example! I like using the game where Maroney got 24 yards on 12 carries, while Orton had the second most prolific passing day in Broncos history as an example of why Orton was the problem and not the running game.

I think it's absolutely correct to completely ignore the 2.0 ypc average by the awful running back, and then focusing on the quarterback inability to win the game. Why, he didn't even throw for 500 yards that day! What a bum!



We have a big enough sample size of games to judge Orton accurately. He, IMHO, is a guy who wont win you games nor manage them well. Why do I say that? Because the guy has been shown to miss WIDE open pass catchers (Jabar Gaffney streaking down the side line, Dan Graham with nobody in the viewable TV frame, Eddie Royal) only to check down, hold the ball too long, or force it to Lloyd.


That's true - Orton had a lot of really awesome receivers last year and they definitely demonstrated the ability to get open. Daniel Graham was basically the second coming of Shannon Sharpe with those soft, soft hands and great receiving skills. Of course, Eddie Royal was never jammed at the line and had no problem getting open. And Demaryius Thomas had an outstanding rookie year, especially since he was healthy all year.

Also, Lloyd had kind of a crappy season last year, so trying to get the ball to him was probably a mistake.



The DC's of this league have written the book on Orton and he has yet to show an adjustment. Let's not forget that many insist he all but quit against KC and AZ last year, too.


Good point. When the field goal kicker is responsible for 25 points, it's usually because the quarterback didn't adjust to the defensive coordinator.



By the way, if we are talking about this being a team sport and being about team, that doesn't favor your argument much either considering how divisive and pouty assed Orton was last season.

I'm sure the defense allowed nearly 30 points per game because they knew that Orton would be unhappy about being benched late in the season.

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 06:57 PM
A better QB would have won the Jax, SF, and KC games for sure. NYJ and AZ are possible wins with a better QB also.


Just because other parts of our team stunk too doesn't mean Orton didn't. Orton is slightly below average NFL starting QB. He's in the 22-28 range.

shank
08-10-2011, 06:59 PM
down by 4 points, 1:37 left in the game:

i would totally rather watch tim tebow throw an interception than watch kyle orton take a sack.

that's where i'm at these days.

zbeg
08-10-2011, 07:02 PM
A better QB would have won the Jax, SF, and KC games for sure. NYJ and AZ are possible wins with a better QB also.


Just because other parts of our team stunk too doesn't mean Orton didn't. Orton is slightly below average NFL starting QB. He's in the 22-28 range.

And that's a valid argument - what's not valid is attributing the win/loss record solely to the quarterback. Orton's record was not X and Y. The team's record was. That's my main point - let's look at the components of the team and how they performed rather than ignoring the other 52 players on the team and pretending like the quarterback is the only player on the team. Most important? Sure. Only? Far from it.

I agree that had he played better, some of those losses would have been wins. Although I don't know if I agree with your assessment of him being slightly below average. That's not really the opinion of the non-biased folks around the league (the ones who don't live and die with each Broncos win/loss)- it seems to be that he's regarded as a slightly above average NFL starting QB.

Canmore
08-10-2011, 07:07 PM
And that's a valid argument - what's not valid is attributing the win/loss record solely to the quarterback. Orton's record was not X and Y. The team's record was. That's my main point - let's look at the components of the team and how they performed rather than ignoring the other 52 players on the team and pretending like the quarterback is the only player on the team. Most important? Sure. Only? Far from it.

I agree that had he played better, some of those losses would have been wins. Although I don't know if I agree with your assessment of him being slightly below average. That's not really the opinion of the non-biased folks around the league (the ones who don't live and die with each Broncos win/loss)- it seems to be that he's regarded as a slightly above average NFL starting QB.

I think he is average to slightly below, 18-22. Maybe he improves this season, we can only hope.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 07:10 PM
Why are we attributing the entire team's win/loss record to one person again?

I know we've tried hard to forget last season, but the defense did give up nearly 30 points per game. I know that it's convenient to blame everything on Orton "the offense sucked so the defense was tired!" but the defense was horrible in the first quarter - the defense that game up 4.7 yards per carry. That one.

Or the defense that had only 18 takeaways - dead last in the league DESPITE having one of the top cornerbacks in the game. That one. How much are you pinning that one on the quarterback?

Teams win games. As in, everyone on the team, not just the quarterback. If you don't agree with me, then you should probably bump Elway (63% career win percentage) below Stan Humphries (65%) on your all-time list of quarterbacks. You know, for consistency's sake.

Why is it that in defending Orton that it always gets side stepped that Ortorn was 1-5 in games that Denver could tie or take the lead at the end of the game? Not only that we held the ball for the last meaningful drive of the game. If you have chance to win or tie the game with the last meaningful possession then using the defense as a convenient excuse does work as well. If you have the ball with that kind of opportunity it's the game is in the quarterback's hands. So it's fair criticism imo.

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chazoe60
08-10-2011, 07:11 PM
And that's a valid argument - what's not valid is attributing the win/loss record solely to the quarterback. Orton's record was not X and Y. The team's record was. That's my main point - let's look at the components of the team and how they performed rather than ignoring the other 52 players on the team and pretending like the quarterback is the only player on the team. Most important? Sure. Only? Far from it.

I agree that had he played better, some of those losses would have been wins. Although I don't know if I agree with your assessment of him being slightly below average. That's not really the opinion of the non-biased folks around the league (the ones who don't live and die with each Broncos win/loss)- it seems to be that he's regarded as a slightly above average NFL starting QB.

I dont think anyone is saying it's all Orton or that if we just replace Orton we'll be world beaters but when a part of the team is not performing well you need to fix it, and last season Kyle Orton did not perform well.

As far as how he's viewed by preople in the NFL I think you are confusing talking heads on TV with people in the NFL. We saw exactly how other teams view Kyle Orton when no team other than the Xolphins even sniffed at Kyle Orton. Players like Tarvaris Jackson, Matt Hassleback, Kevin Kolb, and John Beck were picked up to lead teams while Orton was virtually ignored.

I'm a Bronco fan and I will continue to voice my displeasure with having mediocre player starting at the most important position. Especially when that mediocre player acts like he's elite and says his last goal is winning over the fans.

zbeg
08-10-2011, 07:20 PM
As far as how he's viewed by preople in the NFL I think you are confusing talking heads on TV with people in the NFL. We saw exactly how other teams view Kyle Orton when no team other than the Xolphins even sniffed at Kyle Orton. Players like Tarvaris Jackson, Matt Hassleback, Kevin Kolb, and John Beck were picked up to lead teams while Orton was virtually ignored.


All of those guys except for Kolb and Beck (traded for the low price of Doug Dutch) were free agents. Orton's under contract and the Broncos wanted quite a bit for him in a trade, presumably because they didn't think Tebow was ready.

You're comparing free agents to a guy who is on a team and under contract - and who would require a trade in order to acquire him. That's not the same thing at all. You really think that if Orton was a free agent, he would have been sitting at home waiting for someone other than the Dolphins to call?



I'm a Bronco fan and I will continue to voice my displeasure with having mediocre player starting at the most important position. Especially when that mediocre player acts like he's elite and says his last goal is winning over the fans.

As am I, but I see so many bad parts of this team and the fixation on one position is a little bizarre to me when the passing game was one of the few things that didn't completely stink last year.

Canmore
08-10-2011, 07:21 PM
Why is it that in defending Orton that it always gets side stepped that Ortorn was 1-5 in games that Denver could tie or take the lead at the end of the game? Not only that we held the ball for the last meaningful drive of the game. If you have chance to win or tie the game with the last meaningful possession then using the defense as a convenient excuse does work as well. If you have the ball with that kind of opportunity it's the game is in the quarterback's hands. So it's fair criticism imo.

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Truth. We had a legitimate chance to win five more games. Kyle Orton was given the ball six times with a chance to win the game on the last meaningful drive of the game and he came up short five times. That is not an acceptable rate in Denver. Quarterbacks make the big bucks to deliver with the game on the line. Kyle must improve this year on third down, in the red zone and especially with the game on the line. What TX said is spot on. Quarterbacks get paid to deliver and Kyle failed. All the criticism Orton is getting is more than justified. :salute:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-10-2011, 07:25 PM
Then how come Tebow can't? I mean, if Orton can look good throwing the ball in shorts with "no pressure"... then how come Tebow can't throw the ball well and look good in shorts while there is no pressure?

That's a fair question Ravage. I just think he needs more time to get the timing of the offense down. I think his 3 and 5 step drops, along with his throwing motion are already improved.

The point I'm making is, Kyle usually looks good when there's no pressure. When the game's on the line and we're facing a tough D, I would much rather have Tebow under center.

I don't care if Kyle is the better "thrower" on mid-range timing routes. No one here is going to convince me he's a better QB.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 08:57 PM
That's a fair question Ravage. I just think he needs more time to get the timing of the offense down. I think his 3 and 5 step drops, along with his throwing motion are already improved.

The point I'm making is, Kyle usually looks good when there's no pressure. When the game's on the line and we're facing a tough D, I would much rather have Tebow under center.

I don't care if Kyle is the better "thrower" on mid-range timing routes. No one here is going to convince me he's a better QB.

I dont know. I KNOW Tebow is the better athlete, but not sure hes the better QB. Thats the problem. We know that QBing is much more than throwing...its identfying. Its going to the right guy when/where you choose to throw.

But i do enjoy watching Tebow more than Orton. For now, anyway. Imean we need a pocket passer to be consistant contenders, and I personally dont think Tebow ever gets there.

Buff
08-10-2011, 09:00 PM
from PFT.....

More evidence the Broncos quarterback competition is “over”
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on August 10, 2011, 9:48 AM EDT

We tend to ignore or disregard most everything Rick Reilly writes these days. Call it the Leatherheads effect.

We’ll make an exception for his eye-opening piece on the Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow mess in Denver because Reilly lives in the area, and has close ties to the top of the organization: Broncos Executive VP of Football Operations John Elway.

(Reilly mistakenly calls Elway the team president. Ignore that for now.)

Let’s start with an Elway quote:

“He’s a great young man who is really working hard,” Elway said. “But he didn’t get an offseason to work on [playing from the pocket]. He didn’t get much of that in college. And it’s a completely different thing than the shotgun. Plus, he’s only had the one season. But he’s an amazing football player. I’d never give up on Tim Tebow.”

Whoa. Who said anything about giving up on Tebow? He’s a second year quarterback that lost his biggest supporter (Josh McDaniels) and didn’t get his second offseason. Just the fact Elway’s mind went there is surprising.

Also telling: Reilly’s harsh assessment after getting the low down from Elway. Reilly says the quarterback competition is “over.”

“Orton won by the kind of margin Kim Jong Il wins elections,” he writes.

Tebow is stiff under center and can’t make decisions quickly enough. Something tells us Reilly didn’t suddenly turn into a football scout to make these assessments. They are coming from the Broncos.

“The other way you know it’s over is that Orton is talking to Tebow again,”
The locker room is firmly behind Orton.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/10/more-evidence-the-broncos-quarterback-competition-is-over/

Right on time, TKO, with the article about the article 24 hours later.

Medford Bronco
08-10-2011, 09:02 PM
There aren't any starting QBs in the NFL prone to doing jump passes. Just one backup.

Why is Jake Plummer coming back or that was only the left handed pass I was thinking of :lol:

jhildebrand
08-10-2011, 11:43 PM
And Denver's record when the defense played well was better than when it didn't play well - despite having the same starting quarterback! Isn't that weird? I wonder why that is.



If you agree that "it isn't fair but that's the way it is," then why would you participate in perpetuating something that you know is wrong? That's basically saying "I know it's wrong, but I'm going to keep saying it anyway because everyone else does it even I know they are wrong, too."

I agree that coaches and QBs (especially QBs) are judged by wins and losses unfairly. And that's why I'm hammering this point - hopefully we're smarter than that and we can realize that it is, in fact, not the best way to measure an individual quarterback's performance, and we can elevate the discussion to something that is rooted in reality, and not "it's unfair but that's the way it is."



Sure, it is a team game - and Orton is not faultless by any means. But now we're talking about the context of the team. Orton obviously didn't play defense, yet the defense was the worst in the league by a pretty big margin. If you want to talk about the quarterback's play in the context of the team around him, then that's great. Now we've moved beyond the mindless "HIS RECORDZ WAS 3-10 THATS WAT MATTERS NOM NOM IM EATING GLUE" nonsense that is neither meaningful, nor correct.



Great example! I like using the game where Maroney got 24 yards on 12 carries, while Orton had the second most prolific passing day in Broncos history as an example of why Orton was the problem and not the running game.

I think it's absolutely correct to completely ignore the 2.0 ypc average by the awful running back, and then focusing on the quarterback inability to win the game. Why, he didn't even throw for 500 yards that day! What a bum!



That's true - Orton had a lot of really awesome receivers last year and they definitely demonstrated the ability to get open. Daniel Graham was basically the second coming of Shannon Sharpe with those soft, soft hands and great receiving skills. Of course, Eddie Royal was never jammed at the line and had no problem getting open. And Demaryius Thomas had an outstanding rookie year, especially since he was healthy all year.

Also, Lloyd had kind of a crappy season last year, so trying to get the ball to him was probably a mistake.



Good point. When the field goal kicker is responsible for 25 points, it's usually because the quarterback didn't adjust to the defensive coordinator.



I'm sure the defense allowed nearly 30 points per game because they knew that Orton would be unhappy about being benched late in the season.

Look, we could go on for days here. But let's spare the boards. The point I am making is we know who Orton is and who he is NOT. We know what he can and cannot do. You can make all the excuses for him that you want-i.e. a lot of the stuff you wrote above.

You guys cry "Orton needs a D." Orton HAD a D. Sure you can say he won with a D. He won when it was the #1 overall D for the first 8 weeks. Come on! One of those wins is directly attributable to Dumervil (NE). One was a fluke (a bad pass tipped and caught by Stokley in Cinci). One was won by ST's and Eddie Royal returns. Right there are 3 of the 6 wins when the team started 6-0. A 4th was on a typical Orton dump off/lock on Marshall pass where Marshall beat the entire Dallas D to score late. There are 4 of the 6 wins.

Now....Orton still had the 7th overall ranked D and Oak twice, a bad KC, and a terrible Washington and couldn't win one of them! Are you telling me Orton needs the #1 overall ranked D pitching complete second half shutouts not allowing even so much as a first down to be able to win by a FG? :lol:

You can cry about what the D allowed too but that doesn't excuse Orton. When you lead the league in 3 and outs, you constantly go for it on 3rd and 4th and short and FAIL, of course the D is going to tire and break. I can recall three games in the 09 season where the D was on the field for 22 of 30 minutes in the second half. Of course that was all their doing right? :confused: Orton throwing pick 6's like candy at a parade didn't contribute either....right? :confused:

FG kickers don't matter as much when you can convert on 3rd and 4th. They don't matter when you can score in the RZ. They do matter when you can't! But hey, pin it on the kicker :rolleyes:

I am curious why you continue to blame the running game yet REFUSE to address the fact that teams put 8 and 9 in the box consistently, thereby clgging the lanes, because they know Orton can't beat them! Nice job glossing over that.

Part of this team's problems are real and genuine. Part are exacerbated by Orton's presence as starter. This is supported by the fact that a kid with poor foot work, poor mechanics, can't read D's, and is a rookie scored 20+ each game he was in and didn't get smeared by SD in what has become a season finale tradition. WEIRD :eek:

Again, if Orton needs REMEMBER THE TITANS for a D then count me out. I would rather see if the king's ransom this team has in Tebow is even 1/2 worth it!

By the way, if you can't even acknowledge that Orton on several occasions glossed over WIDE OPEN WR/TE's than there is no point discussing this. It was widely covered at many of the forums!

zbeg
08-10-2011, 11:58 PM
I am curious why you continue to blame the running game yet REFUSE to address the fact that teams put 8 and 9 in the box consistently, thereby clgging the lanes, because they know Orton can't beat them! Nice job glossing over that.


You basically repeated the same points as before - rather than respond to each of them again with biting sarcasm, just refer to my response; we'll save some time.

However, since you called me out for glossing this, I'll address this point specifically:

This is pretty indicative that you may not have been paying that close attention to Orton. Kyle Orton, deep ball thrower - was one of the better QBs in the NFL (20 yards or more).

Orton had a higher completion percentage on deep throws than Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and dare I say it - Jay Cutler. (Among many others.) His interception percentage was THE LOWEST among NFL starters. (2.74%. For comparison's sake, Brady clocked in at 6.12% and Manning was at 7.37%.)

This "OMG Orton was so bad that nobody respected his deep ball and that's why the running game sucked" thing is complete, 100%, total fantasy and is not rooted in reality in any way whatsoever. Orton was one of the best deep throwers in the NFL last year - and the Broncos' running game STILL couldn't get anything done.

There's having an opinion that can be argued either way, and there's having an opinion that is the complete opposite of reality. It's like arguing that Jerome Bettis wasn't really a power back or that Ben Roethlisberger is a decent human being.

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 12:13 AM
Truth. We had a legitimate chance to win five more games. Kyle Orton was given the ball six times with a chance to win the game on the last meaningful drive of the game and he came up short five times. That is not an acceptable rate in Denver. Quarterbacks make the big bucks to deliver with the game on the line. Kyle must improve this year on third down, in the red zone and especially with the game on the line. What TX said is spot on. Quarterbacks get paid to deliver and Kyle failed. All the criticism Orton is getting is more than justified. :salute:

I think most if not every team in the League feels that way. To have that many opportunities to tie or win the game at the end and only coming up with one victory isn't going to cut it.

A sobering thought I think those have strongly advocated for Orton should consider is that several teams were in the market for veteran quarterback and all but one of them showed any real interest. The Vikings went with the 34 year old McNabb, the Cardinals paid a kings ransom for Kolb, and the Titans signed the 35 year old Hasselbeck and of course we know the Dolphins chose not do anything about their situation.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 12:19 AM
And that's a valid argument - what's not valid is attributing the win/loss record solely to the quarterback. Orton's record was not X and Y. The team's record was. That's my main point - let's look at the components of the team and how they performed rather than ignoring the other 52 players on the team and pretending like the quarterback is the only player on the team. Most important? Sure. Only? Far from it.

I agree that had he played better, some of those losses would have been wins. Although I don't know if I agree with your assessment of him being slightly below average. That's not really the opinion of the non-biased folks around the league (the ones who don't live and die with each Broncos win/loss)- it seems to be that he's regarded as a slightly above average NFL starting QB.

That's why teams were lining up to trade for him, right??? I mean the Seahawks opting to sign Travaris Jackson over trading for Orton indicates that teams feel Kyle Orton is an above average QB... :laugh::laugh:

Kevin Kolb, Travaris Jackson, Matt Moore, Donovan McNabb, Alex Smith, Matt Hasselbeck, John Beck, Andy Dalton - ALL chosen to start or compete to start for teams in the NFL outside of Denver over Kyle Orton...

Yep, the NFL thinks the WORLD of Kyle Orton... :elefant::laugh:

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 12:22 AM
That's why teams were lining up to trade for him, right??? I mean the Seahawks opting to sign Travaris Jackson over trading for Orton indicates that teams feel Kyle Orton is an above average QB... :laugh::laugh:

Kevin Kolb, Travaris Jackson, Matt Moore, Donovan McNabb, Alex Smith, Matt Hasselbeck, John Beck, Andy Dalton - ALL chosen to start or compete to start for teams in the NFL outside of Denver over Kyle Orton...

Yep, the NFL thinks the WORLD of Kyle Orton... :elefant::laugh:

I think as much as anything none of the teams that were in the market wanted to pay him $9 million dollars.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 12:24 AM
I think as much as anything none of the teams that were in the market wanted to pay him $9 million dollars.

Isn't an "above average" starter in the NFL worth $9 MILLION? I don't think it was the money, I think it was the fact that no teams would even consider giving him a multi-year deal because they know he is a stopgap player, not a longterm solution. Those who advocate him as anything other than temporary on this board are delusional and simply don't know football...

Kyle Orton is a STOPGAP player on ANY squad, and everyone but a select few seem to know it.

Ravage!!!
08-11-2011, 12:25 AM
You basically repeated the same points as before - rather than respond to each of them again with biting sarcasm, just

However, since you called me out for glossing this, I'll address this point specifically:

This is pretty indicative that you may not have been paying that close attention to Orton. Kyle Orton, deep ball thrower - was one of the better QBs in the NFL (20 yards or more).

Orton had a higher completion percentage on deep throws than Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and dare I say it - Jay Cutler. (Among many others.) His interception percentage was THE LOWEST among NFL starters. (2.74%. For comparison's sake, Brady clocked in at 6.12% and Manning was at 7.37%.)

This "OMG Orton was so bad that nobody respected his deep ball and that's why the running game sucked" thing is complete, 100%, total fantasy and is not rooted in reality in any way whatsoever. Orton was one of the best deep throwers in the NFL last year - and the Broncos' running game STILL couldn't get anything done.

There's having an opinion that can be argued either way, and there's having an opinion that is the complete opposite of reality. It's like arguing that Jerome Bettis wasn't really a power back or that Ben Roethlisberger is a decent human being.

Its very easy to see that Orton has the highest passing percentage over twenty yards is because they crowded the box. Teams were/are willing to let Orton hit the deep ball from time to time when they know they can shut him out on everything else. Who cares if he hits the deep ball once in a while if he cant complete third downs and cant score? Crowd the box against ortons short passes, keep us from moving the chains, outscore us while giving a long ball up every now and again. No loss since they keep beating us.

Also, orton has a lower TD to Int % . He doesnt throw INTS, but he doesnt throw TDs either. He throws fewer TDs to Ints than even Cutler. Except Orton doesnt win.

zbeg
08-11-2011, 02:18 AM
Its very easy to see that Orton has the highest passing percentage over twenty yards is because they crowded the box. Teams were/are willing to let Orton hit the deep ball from time to time when they know they can shut him out on everything else. Who cares if he hits the deep ball once in a while if he cant complete third downs and cant score? Crowd the box against ortons short passes, keep us from moving the chains, outscore us while giving a long ball up every now and again. No loss since they keep beating us.

Also, orton has a lower TD to Int % . He doesnt throw INTS, but he doesnt throw TDs either. He throws fewer TDs to Ints than even Cutler. Except Orton doesnt win.

But that's not true, either. About 14% of his pass attempts were deep throws, which was a higher % than Manning, Brady, Rivers, and Brees. This isn't a "once in a while he throws deep so who cares, we'll crowd the box situation." Orton was going deep early and often - and doing so with better proficiency than most of the league.

What's striking is that despite the deep pass proficiency, the running game was still awful. The offensive line was terrible and there was no running game whatsoever as a result. It's really hard to look at the situation last year and think that Orton didn't at least do his part to get people out of the box. (And really, they didn't crowd the box - the running game was zero threat. Zero. Look at the tape last year and nobody's crowding the box to try to stop Lawrence Maroney.)

PAINTERDAVE
08-11-2011, 03:57 AM
Its very easy to see that Orton has the highest passing percentage over twenty yards is because they crowded the box. Teams were/are willing to let Orton hit the deep ball from time to time when they know they can shut him out on everything else. Who cares if he hits the deep ball once in a while if he cant complete third downs and cant score? Crowd the box against ortons short passes, keep us from moving the chains, outscore us while giving a long ball up every now and again. No loss since they keep beating us.

Also, orton has a lower TD to Int % . He doesnt throw INTS, but he doesnt throw TDs either. He throws fewer TDs to Ints than even Cutler. Except Orton doesnt win.

And we can expect more of the same... since Kyle is in a contract year.

he will be playing it safe... not wanting to risk his precious stats..
afraid to throw the pic... he will fall down often...
instead of attempting the difficult throw.

He will be our average, game manager again... very vanilla..
he wont lose games for us..
but he wont win them , either.

Wait.. he actually may lose games for us...
if he is ultra focused on his TD to INT ratio over the wins...
How many times have we seen Kyle settle for a field goal...
instead of going for the TD... and risking making a mistake?

I expect him to play for the stats more than the wins.


Our wins will come from an improved defense or not at all.

Tned
08-11-2011, 06:40 AM
down by 4 points, 1:37 left in the game:

i would totally rather watch tim tebow throw an interception than watch kyle orton take a sack.

that's where i'm at these days.

This is close to where I am. It was clear in those last three games that Tebow is more of a playmaker when the team is behind and needs to come back.

Now, maybe my feeling will change if our defense jumps from worst, to top half of the league, and we get a running game. Then, I might like the idea of the 'steady' QB.

Juriga72
08-11-2011, 07:20 AM
But that's not true, either. About 14% of his pass attempts were deep throws, which was a higher % than Manning, Brady, Rivers, and Brees. This isn't a "once in a while he throws deep so who cares, we'll crowd the box situation." Orton was going deep early and often - and doing so with better proficiency than most of the league.

What's striking is that despite the deep pass proficiency, the running game was still awful. The offensive line was terrible and there was no running game whatsoever as a result. It's really hard to look at the situation last year and think that Orton didn't at least do his part to get people out of the box. (And really, they didn't crowd the box - the running game was zero threat. Zero. Look at the tape last year and nobody's crowding the box to try to stop Lawrence Maroney.)

Hmmmm I wonder if anyone besides Kyle orton has ever led the NFL in "Deep passes" and 3 and outs....

Because we all know "How bad his o-line was"..... Running for his life as the receiver took all that time to run those deep routes.

I wonder tho..... WHAT happened on those drives where he went 16/39 for passes that went 21-30 yards?... The other 23 plays led to punts?

Nope.... I don't want to led the NFL in "Deep pass attempts"...because you also lead the NFL in "Deep pass incomplete passing" which leads to punts.

You will notice there seems to be a direct correlation to the 36.9 % comp% for deep passes and his 31% conversion rate for 3rd downs...

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 07:41 AM
The fact that almost none of the Ortonites on this board can admit that Orton is a product of McDaniel's spread system is comical to me...

Tom Brady, in 2007 threw for 5,000 yards, 50 TDs, and 8 Ints, tossing 15 plays over 40 yards, but he converted 48% of his 3rd downs, while the rushing game wasn't top 10, it was ranked 13th.

The following season Matt Cassel, yes Matt freaking Cassel posted numbers almost identical to what Orton did LAST year, while converting 43% of their 3rd downs.

That same season, Cutler converted 48% of his 3rd downs here, and Orton converted 36% of his 3rd downs in Chicago, which he repeated for us in 2009, then falling to 31% this season.

My point is that Orton is a product of the spread offense as much as anyone in football but he still can't overcome is shortcomings and get it done when it matters. Josh McDaniels understands how to throw the football, it's almost like a Mike Leach thing.

Juriga72
08-11-2011, 07:50 AM
"All Kyle needs is a run game and a good defense"-

2008-
Matt Forte- #7 yards gained for rushing
Defense #16- 21.9 pts/game
1 kick return
3 fumble return
2 blocked punt returns
1 int return for td's
9-7 record


2009-

Matt Forte- #22 rushing yards
#21 defense- 23.4 pts/game
1 int return
1 fumble return

7-9 record

Same teams- same system

Kyle Orotn 2008-
272/465 2972 yards 18 td 12 int

Jay Cutler-
336/ 555 3666 yards 27 td- 26INT

4th year in system versus 1st year in system...

MileHighCrew
08-11-2011, 08:35 AM
Funny line on Mike and Mike, they said if Tebow's first read isn't open he needs a Garmin to find the 2nd read.

SOCALORADO.
08-11-2011, 09:00 AM
Everyone relax.:D Soon you wont have to worry about Orton or Tebow or Quinn.

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2011/08/04/Andrew-Luck-is-thrilled-to-be-back-at-Stanford-0893GKQ-x-large.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/1028/ncf_i_barkleybm_300.jpg
http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2010/09/11/091110-Landry-Jones-SW-PI_20100911202633_660_320.JPG
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/166/020/107041488_crop_650x440.jpg?1312751613

Lonestar
08-11-2011, 09:39 AM
The first season he was here. He tore it on a throw when his hand hit a defender's helmet. I think it was the bears preseason game.

Actually it was a compound fracture of the first finger on his throwing hand. (second most important finger next to the thumb in guiding the ball). If he was a wuss he could have milked that for months. But we all know he was out throwing with stitches that was used to cover the exposed bone that ripped thru the skin. Had to use a glove to protect that.

Yep a real wuss. Could not wait it out to heal, Had to play.

"By the way, if you can't even acknowledge that Orton on several occasions glossed over WIDE OPEN WR/TE's than there is no point discussing this. It was widely covered at many of the forums!"

btw jay was probably more guilty of this forcing balls into uber tight spots (creating picks) opposed to throwing underneath To wide open WRs.
Can't have it both ways folks.

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Lonestar
08-11-2011, 09:46 AM
"The fact that almost none of the Ortonites on this board can admit that Orton is a product of McDaniel's spread system is comical to me..."
And Jay was not a product of mikeys?

The whole idea is to get the most out of your players.
An amazing concept.

If y'all thought Orton was conservative last year, wait till Fox puts together a game plan.

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Northman
08-11-2011, 09:47 AM
The bottom line for all of this is really simple. While football is a team sport there are still players who rise above some of their teams limitations and find ways to get it done. If Orton was anywhere NEAR and elite QB he would be in high demand and NO team would be willing to trade him. Simple as that.

chazoe60
08-11-2011, 09:52 AM
Orton is not a franchise QB. I don't know about Tebow, but not being able to beat out a below average guy like Orton is not a good sign.

My guess is our franchise QB is attending college classes right now. Hopefully at either Stanford or USC.

I hope that Tebow stays on the team as one of the best RZ threats in history. He could be an awesome backup QB who is used 5-10 times a game in special packages. I don't know that Tim would be happy with that though.

Tned
08-11-2011, 09:58 AM
Yep a real wuss. Could not wait it out to heal, Had to play.

Personal note. It would be nice if you could respond to a post without the sarcasm and condescension.


Actually it was a compound fracture of the first finger on his throwing hand. (second most important finger next to the thumb in guiding the ball). If he was a wuss he could have milked that for months. But we all know he was out throwing with stitches that was used to cover the exposed bone that ripped thru the skin. Had to use a glove to protect that.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

As to this, glad you brought it up for those that forgot/didn't know. While he and the medical staff claimed that the dislocation was better than a torn tendon or fracture (he didn't have a fracture as you put in your post) in terms of healing time, the fact is he had a bone sticking through his skin.

Apparently the worst part of it was the "cut" which was like getting sliced to the bone, but in this case it was the bone popping through the skin.

He was back to playing probably as fast as anyone could be. From what I remember, he wore a glove for a little while to help throw while it was healing.

Lonestar
08-11-2011, 09:59 AM
And because everyone is a fly on the wall in Johns office we know how many teams were interested in Orton. Just how many teams called?

LMAO with all the arm chair GMs that think they know everything that has happened behind closed doors.

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BroncoJoe
08-11-2011, 10:03 AM
And because everyone is a fly on the wall in Johns office we know how many teams were interested in Orton. Just how many teams called?

LMAO with all the arm chair GMs that think they know everything that has happened behind closed doors.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Yep.

Lonestar
08-11-2011, 10:06 AM
Personal note. It would be nice if you could respond to a post without the sarcasm and condescension.
As to this, glad you brought it up for those that forgot/didn't know. While he and the medical staff claimed that the dislocation was better than a torn tendon or fracture (he didn't have a fracture as you put in your post) in terms of healing time, the fact is he had a bone sticking through his skin.
Apparently the worst part of it was the "cut" which was like getting sliced to the bone, but in this case it was the bone popping through the skin.
He was back to playing probably as fast as anyone could be. From what I remember, he wore a glove for a little while to help throw while it was healing.

As to the first part of the post. Yes I'll be sure to do that about the same time all the know it alls do the same thing. make sure you comment publicly about their posts. Then I'll think about it.

It was reported As a compound fracture IIRC and even if the bone was not broken. The pain had to be on the moon and the toughness he showed was
Beyond what most could/would have done.

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TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 10:10 AM
It called common sense and just listening to what is reported. Every other team needing a quarterback besides went a different direction. There's nothing that shows that those teams even inquired about Orton.

T.K.O.
08-11-2011, 10:23 AM
Right on time, TKO, with the article about the article 24 hours later.

You tryin' to give me a complex Buff ?
you keep "poppin" in and posting how unnecessary the threads i make are....but if you look closer you will see that this thread has more posts than any new threads on the BF.
so apparantly most people dont mind:D
just a topic of debate....i'm not expecting a pulitzer:laugh:

T.K.O.
08-11-2011, 10:29 AM
Orton is not a franchise QB. I don't know about Tebow, but not being able to beat out a below average guy like Orton is not a good sign.

My guess is our franchise QB is attending college classes right now. Hopefully at either Stanford or USC.

I hope that Tebow stays on the team as one of the best RZ threats in history. He could be an awesome backup QB who is used 5-10 times a game in special packages. I don't know that Tim would be happy with that though.

as long as those 5-10 plays are TOUCHDOWNS....we'll all be happy with that :elefant::beer::laugh:

Tned
08-11-2011, 10:30 AM
As to the first part of the post. Yes I'll be sure to do that about the same time all the know it alls do the same thing. make sure you comment publicly about their posts. Then I'll think about it.

It was reported As a compound fracture IIRC and even if the bone was not broken. The pain had to be on the moon and the toughness he showed was
Beyond what most could/would have done.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

It was a dislocation, not a fracture. If it was a compound fracture he would never have been able to play as soon as he did. A dislocation (if there is no tendon damage) heals much quicker than a fracture. In his case, the main problem was the cut to the skin.

T.K.O.
08-11-2011, 10:36 AM
i hope he rips another finger...he played his best ball when he had that glove on;)
seriously, it was almost like he played with more passion and confidence during his recovery ? crazy
I just hope Fox builds a strong enough D and we get some good/great running out of Moreno & Mcgahee ( M&M's:laugh:).
i really believe Orton has shown that he can play well enough to win with some help:salute:

Ravage!!!
08-11-2011, 10:42 AM
i really believe Orton has shown that he can play well enough to win with some help:salute:

more than just some.

Juriga72
08-11-2011, 10:50 AM
more than just some.

#11 scoring Defense- (8-8)
#2 scoring defense- (10-5...throwing 9 whole touchdowns)
#16 scoring Defense- (8-7)


:)

Northman
08-11-2011, 11:36 AM
I hope that Tebow stays on the team as one of the best RZ threats in history.

Not me, if Tebow cant be a legit QB i dont want to go with gimmicks. Screw that.

Northman
08-11-2011, 11:39 AM
#11 scoring Defense- (8-8)
#2 scoring defense- (10-5...throwing 9 whole touchdowns)
#16 scoring Defense- (8-7)


:)


Wow... :lol:

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 12:54 PM
#11 scoring Defense- (8-8)
#2 scoring defense- (10-5...throwing 9 whole touchdowns)
#16 scoring Defense- (8-7)


:)


Wow... :lol:

You realize that when Orton had the number 2 scoring defense he was only a rookie. I only mention that because there is at least one other person who would bring it up just to try and justify him throwing 9 touchdowns. I might also add Orton threw for 1,869 yards in 15 games in his rookie season as well.

Ravage!!!
08-11-2011, 01:28 PM
You realize that when Orton had the number 2 scoring defense he was only a rookie. I only mention that because there is at least one other person who would bring it up just to try and justify him throwing 9 touchdowns. I might also add Orton threw for 1,869 yards in 15 games in his rookie season as well.

Oh..I'm sure it will be brought up. Then we'll get a lecture on the history of each game so that we understand why Orton only threw 9 TDs and 1800 yrds.

Juriga72
08-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Oh..I'm sure it will be brought up. Then we'll get a lecture on the history of each game so that we understand why Orton only threw 9 TDs and 1800 yrds.

He was too busy handing off to the 8th best running game!!!!!
131.2 yards/game

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 01:40 PM
He was too busy handing off to the 8th best running game!!!!!
131.2 yards/game

He had something like four games where he threw the ball for less than 100 yards.

Juriga72
08-11-2011, 01:43 PM
He had something like four games where he threw the ball for less than 100 yards.

Hell..... He's the best "Under 70 QB rating game" qb in NFL history. He's won like 14 games with less than a 70 QB rating.

Jsteve01
08-11-2011, 01:45 PM
the funny thing about this whole entire conversation is this: at the end of the day you have an OC that worked with both qbs last year, a rb coach that saw them both last year and a QB coach that saw them both. You've also got a HC who sees them all every day in practice and yet we're trying to debate this thing out online....I'll leave it to the coaching staff to determine who starts

Buff
08-11-2011, 01:46 PM
You tryin' to give me a complex Buff ?
you keep "poppin" in and posting how unnecessary the threads i make are....but if you look closer you will see that this thread has more posts than any new threads on the BF.
so apparantly most people dont mind:D
just a topic of debate....i'm not expecting a pulitzer:laugh:

I just get annoyed with how the same information gets re-purposed 1,000 times nowadays. (Especially with the Broncos, because the predominately east coast-based media are completely out of touch with the day-to-day happenings.)

Florio's story didn't offer up anything beyond Reilly's original piece, which already had an extensive discussion going on. But people see a story about the Broncos on PFT and immediately copy and paste.

At the end of the day it's a complete non-issue. There is nothing wrong with creating a thread. But it annoys me nevertheless.

Npba900
08-11-2011, 01:55 PM
Orton will more than likely be the starter, and thats fine by me. Whats going to piss me off though is if when (if?) we are officially elminated from the playoffs they don't plug Tebow in to get him some experience this season.

I'm so over this QB "controversy". Thursday can't come soon enough! We have so many other question marks on this team, I'm really looking forward to the preseason more than usual.

Don't worry the Bronocos will ensure Tebow gets playing time this season especially if Denver has no playoff hopes. After all, Denver has to see whether Tebow can make the necessary strides they are looking for. And if Tebow does make improvments, Denver can showcase Tebow's improvement to the rest of NFL for possible trade consideration in the future.

Northman
08-11-2011, 02:04 PM
You realize that when Orton had the number 2 scoring defense he was only a rookie. I only mention that because there is at least one other person who would bring it up just to try and justify him throwing 9 touchdowns. I might also add Orton threw for 1,869 yards in 15 games in his rookie season as well.

Indeed. But i would answer that with Cutler as a rookie had over 1,000 yds passing and 9 TDs in just 5 games with the 16th ranked defense.

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Indeed. But i would answer that with Cutler as a rookie had over 1,000 yds passing and 9 TDs in just 5 games with the 16th ranked defense.

That doesn't count. ;)

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 02:27 PM
I just get annoyed with how the same information gets re-purposed 1,000 times nowadays. (Especially with the Broncos, because the predominately east coast-based media are completely out of touch with the day-to-day happenings.)

Florio's story didn't offer up anything beyond Reilly's original piece, which already had an extensive discussion going on. But people see a story about the Broncos on PFT and immediately copy and paste.

At the end of the day it's a complete non-issue. There is nothing wrong with creating a thread. But it annoys me nevertheless.

T.K.O is just happy his hero Kyle Orton is starting, for now. We should let him enjoy it because soon enough he'll have to start threads and comments about someone other than Orton, that is unless he's doing in on another team's forum.

zbeg
08-11-2011, 02:58 PM
The fact that almost none of the Ortonites on this board can admit that Orton is a product of McDaniel's spread system is comical to me...


I thought the consensus was that McDaniels was an idiot and shouldn't be anywhere near an NFL sideline, set the franchise back a decade, and provided zero value to the Broncos the last two years.

If you prefer, I could go with the more common "McDummy" or "McDumbass" or "McStupidFace" (okay, that last one isn't as popular) moniker.

chazoe60
08-11-2011, 03:04 PM
I thought the consensus was that McDaniels was an idiot and shouldn't be anywhere near an NFL sideline, set the franchise back a decade, and provided zero value to the Broncos the last two years.

If you prefer, I could go with the more common "McDummy" or "McDumbass" or "McStupidFace" (okay, that last one isn't as popular) moniker.

McD is an arrogant little ***** who set this franchise back years.

SOCALORADO.
08-11-2011, 04:00 PM
I thought the consensus was that McDaniels was an idiot and shouldn't be anywhere near an NFL sideline, set the franchise back a decade, and provided zero value to the Broncos the last two years.

If you prefer, I could go with the more common "McDummy" or "McDumbass" or "McStupidFace" (okay, that last one isn't as popular) moniker.

Actually McDooDoohead is the most popular.Just sayin.........

SOCALORADO.
08-11-2011, 04:02 PM
T.K.O is just happy his hero Kyle Orton is starting, for now. We should let him enjoy it because soon enough he'll have to start threads and comments about someone other than Orton, that is unless he's doing in on another team's forum.

http://beyondthebets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/luck.jpg

Northman
08-11-2011, 04:05 PM
http://beyondthebets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/luck.jpg


You know, he kind of looks like Ryan Leaf........


:D

Lancane
08-11-2011, 04:07 PM
I thought the consensus was that McDaniels was an idiot and shouldn't be anywhere near an NFL sideline, set the franchise back a decade, and provided zero value to the Broncos the last two years.

If you prefer, I could go with the more common "McDummy" or "McDumbass" or "McStupidFace" (okay, that last one isn't as popular) moniker.

Get it right...it's McNumbnuts!

Nomad
08-11-2011, 04:08 PM
You know, he kind of looks like Ryan Leaf........


:D

Luck's neckbeard reminds of that redheaded dude off of "The Burbs" with Tom Hanks. The dude also played in "Children of the Corn".

nevcraw
08-11-2011, 04:38 PM
Malaki

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 04:38 PM
I thought the consensus was that McDaniels was an idiot and shouldn't be anywhere near an NFL sideline, set the franchise back a decade, and provided zero value to the Broncos the last two years.

If you prefer, I could go with the more common "McDummy" or "McDumbass" or "McStupidFace" (okay, that last one isn't as popular) moniker.

McDaniels knows passing offense but you're right, McDumbass shouldn't be allowed within 1,000 miles of a GM meeting. He needs to stick to being an offensive coordinator and let the men handle the front office.

SOCALORADO.
08-11-2011, 04:51 PM
You know, he kind of looks like Ryan Leaf........


:D

He can look like Bryci for all i care, as long as he keeps playin like John mother frickin Elway!:D

Northman
08-11-2011, 04:58 PM
He can look like Bryci for all i care, as long as he keeps playin like John mother frickin Elway!:D

If he looks like Bryci than i may not be able to contain myself. Might get a little embarrassing on gameday in the household with my pants unzipped. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

NightTerror218
08-11-2011, 05:11 PM
If he looks like Bryci than i may not be able to contain myself. Might get a little embarrassing on gameday in the household with my pants unzipped. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

mmmm Bryci.....heaven on earth

NightTerror218
08-11-2011, 06:34 PM
Tebow supporter I think you know him

Terrell Davis
@Terrell_Davis Terrell Davis
Man, It's interesting how people didn't just jump off Tim Tebow's bandwagon, they turned it on it's side. Nobody's giving the guy a chance!

NightTerror218
08-11-2011, 06:44 PM
more from TD

@Terrell_Davis Terrell Davis
Hey look, I've always said that the people inside the ropes always know more then us on the outside. Obviously, They see what he really is.

NightTerror218
08-11-2011, 06:47 PM
and more

Terrell Davis
@Terrell_Davis Terrell Davis
I was one of those who felt that his game didn't translate well to the NFL when he came out, but he gained my respect last year by his play.

NightTerror218
08-11-2011, 06:53 PM
Terrell Davis
@Terrell_Davis Terrell Davis
I'm just confused by the Broncos shopping Orton if they believed Tebow wasn't ready. Did they think Quinn was the answer?

Juriga72
08-11-2011, 06:59 PM
I'm surprised NO ONE traded twqo first and threw in a never was QB with us for our starting QB..

The last guiys who did that got to the Championship game like...what?? Two years later..

Lancane
08-11-2011, 06:59 PM
more from TD

@Terrell_Davis Terrell Davis
Hey look, I've always said that the people inside the ropes always know more then us on the outside. Obviously, They see what he really is.

Someone needs to tell Davis that the Front Office has divided the fandom, there is now the Ortonites (Minority), Tebowmaniacs (Majority), and the Draft'a'quarterbackers (The smaller Majority), even some Quinnians (Smaller minority then the Ortonites). I've never seen the fanbase so torn, never!

But if he asked how many wanted to see Tebow play to find out if he is the future, the Tebowmaniacs, Draft'a'quarterbackers and even the Quinnians would all probably be for it. But it isn't to be so, so you'll see the three groups sort of just go along with the flow, but at the end of the year - when the Ortonites are hoping he re-ups, but when he doesn't and is gone along with Quinn, you'll see two camps, the Tebowmaniacs and the Draft'a'quarterbackers who will grow rapidly at that point.

Ravage!!!
08-11-2011, 07:01 PM
more from TD

@Terrell_Davis Terrell Davis
Hey look, I've always said that the people inside the ropes always know more then us on the outside. Obviously, They see what he really is.

Yes, they obviously do :mad:

Buff
08-11-2011, 07:17 PM
Someone needs to tell Davis that the Front Office has divided the fandom, there is now the Ortonites (Minority), Tebowmaniacs (Majority), and the Draft'a'quarterbackers (The smaller Majority), even some Quinnians (Smaller minority then the Ortonites). I've never seen the fanbase so torn, never!

But if he asked how many wanted to see Tebow play to find out if he is the future, the Tebowmaniacs, Draft'a'quarterbackers and even the Quinnians would all probably be for it. But it isn't to be so, so you'll see the three groups sort of just go along with the flow, but at the end of the year - when the Ortonites are hoping he re-ups, but when he doesn't and is gone along with Quinn, you'll see two camps, the Tebowmaniacs and the Draft'a'quarterbackers who will grow rapidly at that point.

I think McDaniels was much more divisive.

He was turning lifelong fans away from the team. Orton is only turning Gator fans away from the team.

chazoe60
08-11-2011, 07:20 PM
I think McDaniels was much more divisive.

He was turning lifelong fans away from the team. Orton is only turning Gator fans away from the team.

I'm not a Gator fan and Orton has me less than enthusiastic for the season.

This idea that if you're against Orton you're a Tebow/Gator fan is bullshit. I'm a ******* Bronco fan and that is exactly why I want Orton gone.

Lancane
08-11-2011, 07:20 PM
I think McDaniels was much more divisive.

He was turning lifelong fans away from the team. Orton is only turning Gator fans away from the team.

I meant over the quarterback situation Buff, but I agree that McDaniels was divisive in regards to fans and the organization. Orton is not turning Gator fans away, the front office is...and until Denver drafts a quarterback or Tebow is traded, cut...etc. then those Gator fans will remain. Orton still does not have the support of the majority, both groups are split into those who support Tebow or those who feel we need to still draft the future.

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 07:28 PM
It seems some people assume that Tebow not starting automatically they're going to kick him to the curb. I don't think that's necessarily the case.

TD is the know what Tebow is raw. Raw doesn't mean he can't learn.

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Buff
08-11-2011, 08:38 PM
I'm not a Gator fan and Orton has me less than enthusiastic for the season.

This idea that if you're against Orton you're a Tebow/Gator fan is bullshit. I'm a ******* Bronco fan and that is exactly why I want Orton gone.

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that a QB controversy is not as divisive as a coaching situation gone horribly wrong.

McDaniels was driving diehard fans to indifference. Fans were turning against the team. I'm not an Orton fan either, but he's not cheating and getting rid of talented players. The only people turning against the team over this are Tebow fanbois.

Jagsbch
08-11-2011, 09:13 PM
One thing we learn from history is that no one learns from history, so it I have to remind folks that Orton sucks. 2 completions out of 6 passes.

camdisco24
08-11-2011, 09:31 PM
One thing we learn from history is that no one learns from history, so it I have to remind folks that Orton sucks. 2 completions out of 6 passes.

I love Tebow as much as the next guy... but seriously Jags... Orton was in the game for like 5 minutes. Let him fail on his own, don't make a fool of yourself defending Tebow in the first preseason game.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 09:40 PM
Our QB situation sucks... Wonder if Chicago would give us a do-over?

chazoe60
08-11-2011, 09:41 PM
Andrew Luck stud, no worries brother.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 09:42 PM
Andrew Luck stud, no worries brother.

That would be amazing... :salute:

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 10:41 PM
One thing we learn from history is that no one learns from history, so it I have to remind folks that Orton sucks. 2 completions out of 6 passes.

No you don't have remind any of us what kind of quarterback Orton is. We've seen him the last two seasons so we do know what kind of quarterback Orton is.

MOtorboat
08-11-2011, 10:41 PM
One thing we learn from history is that no one learns from history, so it I have to remind folks that Orton sucks. 2 completions out of 6 passes.

Lol

Rick
08-11-2011, 11:09 PM
I love watching Tebow play...and have never watched a gator game in my entire life...

To be frank though, he is not ready. He needs another year of just development.

He has the drive, I loved that drive to keep the play open he had tonight, despite it all going so so wrong lol, he fought to keep it all alive. Even on the botched snap, he shook off the one sack, if the other guy doesn't rush through and get him maybe something still happens because he shook the first guy off.

His passing still needs work though, as has been the case with most young QBs.

I want him still to be the future guy. I would rather spend all high picks on defense. I would love to develop a league top defense for a change.

I would like for a change to have a team built around tough defense and hard running. I would like it that the team does not live and die by the QBs arm.

My vote is let Orton/Quin battle for #1 this year, let Tebow sit and just work on refinement this season and under no circumstance even glance at a QB next year. Grab DT, if Ayers doesn't work out grab DE, if none of the MLBs work out gram a MLB.

If given time to refine Tebow can add a good enough passing attack to complement his play making.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 11:16 PM
I'm with Rick...

As much as I can't stomach watching Orton and can't stand him being a Bronco, Tebow is not ready, he's just not.

He didn't get a true devlopment last year thanks to McDumbass giving him no reps, he didn't get an offseason this year to work with the coaches and learn from his mistakes last year, and his passing isn't there yet, if ever. He doesn't anticipate, he waits and lets the play break down before he decides what to do. That won't work for 16 games.

I REALLY dislike Orton as our QB, but Tebow needs more time, in my humble opinion. I would prefer to see Quinn get the start this season. He's in a contract season as well and has a lot to play for.

chazoe60
08-11-2011, 11:30 PM
I posted this in another thread but I'll repeat it here:

Quinn is our most promising QB. Orton is shit and Tebow is raw.

Quinn for starter.

NightTerror218
08-11-2011, 11:32 PM
I'm with Rick...

As much as I can't stomach watching Orton and can't stand him being a Bronco, Tebow is not ready, he's just not.

He didn't get a true devlopment last year thanks to McDumbass giving him no reps, he didn't get an offseason this year to work with the coaches and learn from his mistakes last year, and his passing isn't there yet, if ever. He doesn't anticipate, he waits and lets the play break down before he decides what to do. That won't work for 16 games.

I REALLY dislike Orton as our QB, but Tebow needs more time, in my humble opinion. I would prefer to see Quinn get the start this season. He's in a contract season as well and has a lot to play for.

Tebow was our best passer in the preseason game and was not against the shittiest players like Quinn was at the end.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 11:38 PM
Tebow was our best passer in the preseason game and was not against the shittiest players like Quinn was at the end.

That doesn't bode well. Orton is our best pure passer but he is so limited in what he can do. Tebow is probably the most dangerous QB on the roster, even raw, but Quinn looked a lot better today than he did last year in his opportunity. I just think Tebow might benefit from more development, or SOME development. He just didn't get it last year and this offseason.

DenBronx
08-11-2011, 11:48 PM
The funny thing is that Tebow doesnt win the starting job and the Gator fans give up and leave.

Meanwhile us real Bronco fans are still here and get to celebrate when he really gets his chance. We stick with our Broncos through thick or thin.

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 11:52 PM
The funny thing is that Tebow doesnt win the starting job and the Gator fans give up and leave.

Meanwhile us real Bronco fans are still here and get to celebrate when he really gets his chance. We stick with our Broncos through thick or thin.

Not all of them. JaxBroncoGirl is assimilating into the community quite nicely.

BroncoStud
08-11-2011, 11:54 PM
Not all of them. JaxBroncoGirl is assimilating into the community quite nicely.

Yep, she's become quite the Broncos fan, good for her. :salute:

Lancane
08-11-2011, 11:59 PM
I don't think there is enough time for Tebow to really develop into a pro-ready pocket quarterback, at this point I'm wondering if it can even be done. Remember Steve Young? It took nearly seven seasons for him to be ready, we don't have that kind of time.

Dzone
08-12-2011, 12:09 AM
everyone in the entire country is following this story...We have the most popular player in the NFL hands down

lgenf
08-12-2011, 12:09 AM
The funny thing is that Tebow doesnt win the starting job and the Gator fans give up and leave.

Meanwhile us real Bronco fans are still here and get to celebrate when he really gets his chance. We stick with our Broncos through thick or thin.

No ALL of us didn't

DenBronx
08-12-2011, 12:13 AM
Not all of them. JaxBroncoGirl is assimilating into the community quite nicely.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Quite refreshing to see.

Agent of Orange
08-12-2011, 12:14 AM
I don't think there is enough time for Tebow to really develop into a pro-ready pocket quarterback, at this point I'm wondering if it can even be done. Remember Steve Young? It took nearly seven seasons for him to be ready, we don't have that kind of time.

Time out! Did it take Steve Young 7 years to become good or did it take 7 years to become better than Joe Montana? According to many, you could be a great QB and still not be better than Joe Montana.

DenBronx
08-12-2011, 12:15 AM
No ALL of us didn't

I stand corrected sir! :salute:

I'll say MOST then. :laugh:

DenBronx
08-12-2011, 12:17 AM
everyone in the entire country is following this story...We have the most popular player in the NFL hands down

I think so too. I watch NFLN all the time and those guys are always itching for anything Tebow. I really hope at some point we open this kid up and let him play.

lgenf
08-12-2011, 12:18 AM
I stand corrected sir! :salute:

I'll say MOST then. :laugh:

Thanks bro :beer:

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:19 AM
Time out! Did it take Steve Young 7 years to become good or did it take 7 years to become better than Joe Montana? According to many, you could be a great QB and still not be better than Joe Montana.

His first two seasons in Tampa were horrid, he made Orton look like Aikman. Over the next four years he played relief or in case of injury and did alright, but not enough to replace Montana. It wasn't until his seventh season that they felt he was ready, and finally in his eighth season did he really break out and become dominant, though he did remain dominant from that point on.

Agent of Orange
08-12-2011, 12:24 AM
His first two seasons in Tampa were horrid, he made Orton look like Aikman. Over the next four years he played relief or in case of injury and did alright, but not enough to replace Montana. It wasn't until his seventh season that they felt he was ready, and finally in his eighth season did he really break out and become dominant, though he did remain dominant from that point on.

But, once again, what does that mean? Most people consider Montana an all time great if not the best all time. Just because he didn't supplant who some consider to be the best of all time during 7 years, that doesnt mean he wasn't good at some point early on during those 7 years.

lgenf
08-12-2011, 12:25 AM
His first two seasons in Tampa were horrid, he made Orton look like Aikman. Over the next four years he played relief or in case of injury and did alright, but not enough to replace Montana. It wasn't until his seventh season that they felt he was ready, and finally in his eighth season did he really break out and become dominant, though he did remain dominant from that point on.

Ahhh The ole days when u could develop raw talent..........

BroncoStud
08-12-2011, 12:25 AM
:laugh: The Steve Young comparison has SOME validity, but let's not forget, Young is a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest PASSERS to ever play the game.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:31 AM
Ahhh The ole days when u could develop raw talent..........

Yeah, but those days are long gone...the average career span for a NFL football player is five years.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:32 AM
:laugh: The Steve Young comparison has SOME validity, but let's not forget, Young is a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest PASSERS to ever play the game.

Point is that there is no way that they Broncos are going to give him four or five years to develop while the rest of the league is drafting franchise quarterbacks...and I don't see Elway allowing it either.

LordTrychon
08-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Yeah, but those days are long gone...the average career span for a NFL football player is five years.

What's the average career span of first round players though? First and second? First through third?

I'd bet significantly higher.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 09:11 AM
What's the average career span of first round players though? First and second? First through third?

I'd bet significantly higher.

On average? I understand the average NFL career is 3 years. Thats the average for ALL players. If the average 6th round is 1 year, and then the average 1st rounder would hve to be 5 years to average that out.

Add in the 5th, 3rd, and 2nd rounders, and we still average 3 years. Can't really be any "significant" difference.

lgenf
08-12-2011, 09:21 AM
On average? I understand the average NFL career is 3 years. Thats the average for ALL players. If the average 6th round is 1 year, and then the average 1st rounder would hve to be 5 years to average that out.

Add in the 5th, 3rd, and 2nd rounders, and we still average 3 years. Can't really be any "significant" difference.


except that QB life is longer than other positions

I wonder what the avg QB career is in the NFL - i'm gonna see if I can find that on the web

lgenf
08-12-2011, 09:24 AM
average NFL quarterback's career length is only 4.4 years

chazoe60
08-12-2011, 09:34 AM
BTW did any of you watch the pregame show on channel 9?

They had a sit down interview with Orton and you could see his disdain for the city and fanbase when he said "I played as a rookie in Chicago which is the toughest town to play in in the NFL". He was smirking and all I could think was "don't worry pal we'll be rid of eachother soon enough". I don't want to make a big deal of it but it sure came off like a veiled bash on the fanbase.

I hope others saw it.

I really think he hates it here, but for the most part the feeling is mutual. :laugh:

Lonestar
08-12-2011, 09:35 AM
McD is an arrogant little ***** who set this franchise back years . IMNSHO

Fixed that for you.

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chazoe60
08-12-2011, 09:38 AM
McD's nuts taste good. Yummmm!

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Fixed it for you.

Northman
08-12-2011, 09:39 AM
Fixed it for you.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Lonestar
08-12-2011, 09:54 AM
McDaniels knows passing offense but you're right, McDumbass shouldn't be allowed within 1,000 miles of a GM meeting. He needs to stick to being an offensive coordinator and let the men handle the front office.

Same could have been said of Mikey.

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TXBRONC
08-12-2011, 09:55 AM
:laugh: The Steve Young comparison has SOME validity, but let's not forget, Young is a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest PASSERS to ever play the game.

Yeah but he also plenty of things to work on before that happened.

MOtorboat
08-12-2011, 10:16 AM
BTW did any of you watch the pregame show on channel 9?

They had a sit down interview with Orton and you could see his disdain for the city and fanbase when he said "I played as a rookie in Chicago which is the toughest town to play in in the NFL". He was smirking and all I could think was "don't worry pal we'll be rid of eachother soon enough". I don't want to make a big deal of it but it sure came off like a veiled bash on the fanbase.

I hope others saw it.

I really think he hates it here, but for the most part the feeling is mutual. :laugh:

I heard it, but didnt see it and it didn't sound like that at all. I think it's more likely that that is what you WANT to see, so you see it.

His comments last week make perfect sense...if he worries about anything other than making sure his coach sees him playing well, i.e., paying attention to the fans, then he's not doing his job. And if he pleases Fox and then wins games, fans will be happy. I'm glad he doesn't care what DeAndre from Golden thinks, because if he does, he's less likely to win games. And as a fan of the Broncos, I don't care who is winning the games as long as they are being won.

Lonestar
08-12-2011, 10:19 AM
Over/under on when he'll let it go?
Again that the best you have.

You know I'm an elephant with a very long memory. :laugh:

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Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 10:21 AM
Elephants don't know the definition of hypocrisy, either.

LordTrychon
08-12-2011, 10:25 AM
On average? I understand the average NFL career is 3 years. Thats the average for ALL players. If the average 6th round is 1 year, and then the average 1st rounder would hve to be 5 years to average that out.

Add in the 5th, 3rd, and 2nd rounders, and we still average 3 years. Can't really be any "significant" difference.

Really? What about the 5-6 UDFAs each team usually sign for a few months?

You can't really guess at the way an average works out in this situation. I doubt it's a standard bell curve.

For instance... take an absolute bust of a first rounder... (edit.. forgot this thought and moved onto another one after getting interrupted. Was going to point out that Jarvis Moss is still working)

Looking at the 2005 draft... it looks like 6 picks are out of the league or didn't play last year from the first round.

The other 26 made it to year six.

I doubt they average to 5 years.

chazoe60
08-12-2011, 10:26 AM
I heard it, but didnt see it and it didn't sound like that at all. I think it's more likely that that is what you WANT to see, so you see it.

His comments last week make perfect sense...if he worries about anything other than making sure his coach sees him playing well, i.e., paying attention to the fans, then he's not doing his job. And if he pleases Fox and then wins games, fans will be happy. I'm glad he doesn't care what DeAndre from Golden thinks, because if he does, he's less likely to win games. And as a fan of the Broncos, I don't care who is winning the games as long as they are being won.

I have a really hard time watching something without my own opinion coming into play, maybe it's just me. How about next time illmask you what opinion I should have first and I'll use that one?


BTW if you heard it but didn't see it then you missed the smirk on his face. It was there.

Tned
08-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Again that the best you have.

You know I'm an elephant with a very long memory. :laugh:

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Well, I deleted my comment, but obviously not before you quoted it. Just amazed you still feel the need to bait and troll with your hatred towards Mikey, and all things Mikey (Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, etc.) in every thread.

I get embarrassed for you sometimes.

BroncoStud
08-12-2011, 10:31 AM
I heard it, but didnt see it and it didn't sound like that at all. I think it's more likely that that is what you WANT to see, so you see it.

His comments last week make perfect sense...if he worries about anything other than making sure his coach sees him playing well, i.e., paying attention to the fans, then he's not doing his job. And if he pleases Fox and then wins games, fans will be happy. I'm glad he doesn't care what DeAndre from Golden thinks, because if he does, he's less likely to win games. And as a fan of the Broncos, I don't care who is winning the games as long as they are being won.

Well he had better win more than 3 games this year or the fans will be ready to ship Orton AND Fox our of Denver.

Slick
08-12-2011, 10:35 AM
If John Fox watches Kyle Orton and sees a QB who he thinks is playing well, we need a new head coach.

Nomad
08-12-2011, 10:40 AM
If John Fox watches Kyle Orton and sees a QB who he thinks is playing well, we need a new head coach.

Orton is AWESOME (in the Chris Farley voice):D

Lonestar
08-12-2011, 10:50 AM
Well, I deleted my comment, but obviously not before you quoted it. Just amazed you still feel the need to bait and troll with your hatred towards Mikey, and all things Mikey (Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, etc.) in every thread.

I get embarrassed for you sometimes.

Edit we both know that you could have edited or deleted my response to you as you are admin. But chose not to.

So stop playing martyr.

I can't ever remember ever using negative comments about Hillis. He is a good kid.

As for the others it an't negative if it is factual.

As for embarrassment do not waste it on me there are plenty of others it should be used on.
Back to iggy for you.

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Slick
08-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Orton is AWESOME (in the Chris Farley voice):D
Jajajajaja!!! (Hahahahaha in spanish)

And I have to admit I have lost all objectivity where Orton is concerned.

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Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 10:53 AM
I doubt they average to 5 years.

I thought I heard/read that average NFL career is three years. Did what you said feel more comfortable with that? Because I've honestly lost what you are tryign to say.

chazoe60
08-12-2011, 10:53 AM
If John Fox watches Kyle Orton and sees a QB who he thinks is playing well, we need a new head coach.

I think Fox was saying Orton's command of the offense was good. There's no denying that the first team O looked smoother, but to me that is expected.

I would love to see what Quinn and Tebow could donwith the first teamers.

I like Fox but I get a little tired of being fed a line of shit. This has not been a competition from day 1 and it's not because Orton is so damn good. I really think anointing Orton the starter without real competition is a mistake.

Nomad
08-12-2011, 10:55 AM
Jajajajaja!!! (Hahahahaha in spanish)

And I have to admit I have lost all objectivity where Orton is concerned.

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And Slick for you to do that means he is really bad, because you're one of the most level headed/open minded here!!

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 10:57 AM
I think Fox was saying Orton's command of the offense was good. There's no denying that the first team O looked smoother, but to me that is expected.

I would love to see what Quinn and Tebow could donwith the first teamers.

I like Fox but I get a little tired of being fed a line of shit. This has not been a competition from day 1 and it's not because Orton is so damn good. I really think anointing Orton the starter without real competition is a mistake.

I think its pretty clear to them who the best QB at practice is. Thats what they are going on. You can't be beat in practice and expect to start in games.

Until this team has 5-6 games under the belt, and we have lost a majority, it will be Orton the starter. After that, I think we'll see a change.

To be honest, I don't think Fox had a choice. Meaning if he started Tebow, despite Orton looking MUCH better in practice, not only does he stand a chance of losing the locker room, but you get the "why did you start Tebow when he was obviously not the best QB during TCs" questions after the losing season. But if you start the best player in camp, and then you lose, you can move forward without it being a media circus. This FO and coaching staff didn't ask for this political nightmare, it was just thrust upon them.

broncobryce
08-12-2011, 11:00 AM
I think Fox was saying Orton's command of the offense was good. There's no denying that the first team O looked smoother, but to me that is expected.

I would love to see what Quinn and Tebow could donwith the first teamers.

I like Fox but I get a little tired of being fed a line of shit. This has not been a competition from day 1 and it's not because Orton is so damn good. I really think anointing Orton the starter without real competition is a mistake.

To me it sounds like trying to keep his value up. Like "Well I really love this car, it runs great, gets me tons of chicks, by the way do you want to BUY it?" ^---Orton

"My other one is okay, needs some work" (by the way I'm not selling that one)
^Tebow

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 11:03 AM
:lol: I bet there isn't an elephant that has as long of an "iggy" list. :lol:

LordTrychon
08-12-2011, 11:08 AM
I thought I heard/read that average NFL career is three years. Did what you said feel more comfortable with that? Because I've honestly lost what you are tryign to say.

Yeah, I've heard that, but who is included and how? UDFAs that only last a month in the league? Do they count as zero or a month or a year?

The numbers I pulled, I think for it to average 5 years per player, the 6 who are gone had to be in for zero years, and every other player would have to be done in the next year, with maybe a few more lasting to 7 years.

There's a LOT more players that last a year or less, and that skews the average a lot. First rounders average much more than 5 years.

broncobryce
08-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Ahhh The ole days when u could develop raw talent..........

Supposedly Bill Walsh said, "There are few people in the world who can coach a quarterback and even fewer who can evaluate them."

I always keep this in mind when listening to these idiots tell me Tebow won't succeed.

Slick
08-12-2011, 11:10 AM
I try nomad. I think part of my problem is I was ready for this team to admit we are truly rebuilding, meaning we would do things that are better for the team in the long run.



Lose the lockerroom? Lmfao! The lockerrom is full of players who lost.

And to keep from repeating what has been said already for months, ad nauseum, ill leave it at that.

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PAINTERDAVE
08-12-2011, 11:11 AM
I still laugh when I think of this callers comments on the radio..

"Why so smug Kyle?
Just because you are the biggest turd in the toilet bowl
does not mean you dont stink!"

PAINTERDAVE
08-12-2011, 11:12 AM
I try nomad. I think part of my problem is I was ready for this team to admit we are truly rebuilding, meaning we would do things that are better for the team in the long run.



Lose the lockerroom? Lmfao! The lockerrom is full of players who lost.

And to keep from repeating what has been said already for months, ad nauseum, ill leave it at that.

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Rebuilding everything EXCEPT the QB position.

TXBRONC
08-12-2011, 11:14 AM
If John Fox watches Kyle Orton and sees a QB who he thinks is playing well, we need a new head coach.

It all relative Slick. As compared to the other two quarterbacks that could be what he sees. Orton has always looked good in practice it's when the it's for real that he ends up struggling especially on 3rd downs and red zone opportunities.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 11:15 AM
Yeah, I've heard that, but who is included and how? UDFAs that only last a month in the league? Do they count as zero or a month or a year?

The numbers I pulled, I think for it to average 5 years per player, the 6 who are gone had to be in for zero years, and every other player would have to be done in the next year, with maybe a few more lasting to 7 years.

There's a LOT more players that last a year or less, and that skews the average a lot. First rounders average much more than 5 years.

Well, there are a lot of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounders that play longer than 0- or 7 years. However, if you have the 6th rounders not playing any years, then the 1st rounders would only play for 5 (to average 5).

I would say that 1st rounders average 5 years BECAUSE of the contract they are paid. However, 5th round picks are paid much less and thus don't hit the cap as hard. THey can stay on rosters because they aren't a cap hit...thus extending their 'average' time in the NFL.

Either way, the average NFL career is around 5 years... apparently (I thought it was closer to 3).

xzn
08-12-2011, 11:19 AM
Tebow may yet be a nice Rib-eye with some more time on the grille, but right now he is SUSHI, or at least RAW. Extending the analogy, they might even play him if he was just RARE, but he's barely past MARINATED at this point.

Count me as a huge TT fan, though life-long Broncos fan first. That said, he aint ready yet. But I still think he can be a fine meal with some more time in the oven.

Fox is patting him on the head and saying,"Nice hustle Timmy, BUT..."

Playing him now would be like sticking an expensive cut of meat in the microwave!

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 11:21 AM
Lose the lockerroom? Lmfao! The lockerrom is full of players who lost.



Yes, lose the locker room. Elway said it himself when talkign with Stink on the radio. When he was in the locker room, he TRUSTED the coaching staff to put the BEST players on the field that gave them the BEST chance to win.... period.

You can't bring in FA's and then start a guy that is obviously not winning the starting job. You can't tell your veterans that you arent' going to put the BEST players on the field. You can't show your rookies that it doesn't matter how well you play in practice, but what your name is. Thats how you lose a locker room. Thats how they won't "buy into" what you are saying.

Doesn't matter that these players lost in the past. That has nothing to do with it. That wasn't this team, and that wasn't this coaching staff. That was another season ago, and you absolutely, 100% do NOT simply GIVE UP on a year based on LAST season.

I guess I just understand that the coaching staff sees us at 0-0 right now. Just like everyone else. Do they believe they are going to the Super Bowl, probably not. But damn, I'm glad they aren't goign into the season as "losers" and throwing in the towel from the get-go.

(and I say this in response to you, but only using your quote because Ive seen that same statement made by several others) :beer:

broncobryce
08-12-2011, 11:27 AM
Yes, lose the locker room. Elway said it himself when talkign with Stink on the radio. When he was in the locker room, he TRUSTED the coaching staff to put the BEST players on the field that gave them the BEST chance to win.... period.

You can't bring in FA's and then start a guy that is obviously not winning the starting job. You can't tell your veterans that you arent' going to put the BEST players on the field. You can't show your rookies that it doesn't matter how well you play in practice, but what your name is. Thats how you lose a locker room. Thats how they won't "buy into" what you are saying.

Doesn't matter that these players lost in the past. That has nothing to do with it. That wasn't this team, and that wasn't this coaching staff. That was another season ago, and you absolutely, 100% do NOT simply GIVE UP on a year based on LAST season.

I guess I just understand that the coaching staff sees us at 0-0 right now. Just like everyone else. Do they believe they are going to the Super Bowl, probably not. But damn, I'm glad they aren't goign into the season as "losers" and throwing in the towel from the get-go.

(and I say this in response to you, but only using your quote because Ive seen that same statement made by several others) :beer:

This is where I disagree. I see little difference in the overall record with Orton starting compared to Tebow. Maybe we win one more game with Orton, but I really wouldn't be shocked if we won more with Tebow.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 11:31 AM
Yeah, I've heard that, but who is included and how? UDFAs that only last a month in the league? Do they count as zero or a month or a year?

The numbers I pulled, I think for it to average 5 years per player, the 6 who are gone had to be in for zero years, and every other player would have to be done in the next year, with maybe a few more lasting to 7 years.

There's a LOT more players that last a year or less, and that skews the average a lot. First rounders average much more than 5 years.

Ah...I think I know where you and Rav are skewing the numbers, you're forgetting the other issues involved; health concerns, and a perfect example for us would be Demaryius Thomas. There's drugs (both street and medical AI steroids, painkillers, etc.) which we continually see around the NFL. There is also criminal activity, we have another perfect example in Perrish Cox, or better yet look at Maurice Clarett. Other concerns could be that America has diminished health wise, where kids once ate better and took care of themselves, now you have some who can not manage it, look at JeMarcus Russel.

We don't farm kids anymore, where we draft them in twelve round drafts then coach them for a few years behind others we've done the same for till they are ready, thank free agency for that. These kids don't get the coaching that they did in the 70's or 80's, nor like they did in the 60's. We're too eager to win, the value of a player is in what they can do for us the quickest, and like I said...free agency IMHO free agency ruined the coaching system, it allowed them to get someone with the skills needed instead of coaching a kid up for the position, as they do in college. It also diminished a coach's shelf life with their team, because they are now given less time. (Not for long league!)

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 11:46 AM
This is where I disagree. I see little difference in the overall record with Orton starting compared to Tebow. Maybe we win one more game with Orton, but I really wouldn't be shocked if we won more with Tebow.

I see what you mean. But I don't think you realize just how much Tebow struggles with reads. Whether that be identifying the defense, UNDERSTANDING defensive coverages (which is something he's the weakest on), and getting people to the right spot by calling the correct blocking assignments.

I'm with you. I mean, I KNOW Tebow is the better athlete, without a doubt. But playing QB is more cerebral. When the coach calls in a play, they look for the QB to be able to throw it to the RIGHT GUY more than anything else. Identifying the defense, understanding the coverage, and deliving the ball to the receiver that has the BEST chance of completion. Right now, Tebow doesn't do that well.

I've been saying since the day Tebow was drafted, that although I don't think he'll be a good enough passer to be tops in the NFL, that he SHOULD start from day 1... for the exact reasons you are saying. I don't think we gain ANYTHING by putting Orton in the lineup.

But someone else on the board said it SOOOO right when they pointed out that the Denver Bronco fans are going to be FANS no matter what happens this year. So we feel its ok to "Throw away the season" in hopes of developing for the future. We'll always be here. Fox doesn't have the same luxury.

Cugel
08-12-2011, 11:55 AM
Supposedly Bill Walsh said, "There are few people in the world who can coach a quarterback and even fewer who can evaluate them."

I always keep this in mind when listening to these idiots tell me Tebow won't succeed.

You might as well include John Fox among the "idiots." Most EVERYBODY around the league thinks Tebow won't succeed -- or at least it'll be a long-term project.

If you put Fox under truth serum he'd say that what he REALLY wants is for Kyle Orton to develop into the 2nd coming of Jake Delhomme!

The problem will come when EFX draft a QB in the first round in 2012 and tell the fans that the rookie and Tebow "will be competing for the starting job."

If on the other hand the Broncos DON'T do the expected and draft a QB in 2012 then Tebow might well succeed Orton in Denver.

I'd give it about 1/4 odds.

Tebow was drafted by McDaniels who felt he could develop him into his type of QB. But, Tebow is not Fox's type of QB at all. Orton is. That could change of course between now and when Tebow's rookie contract expires, but it's more likely than not that Tebow will have to go elsewhere to get a chance.

broncobryce
08-12-2011, 12:02 PM
You might as well include John Fox among the "idiots." Most EVERYBODY around the league thinks Tebow won't succeed -- or at least it'll be a long-term project.

If you put Fox under truth serum he'd say that what he REALLY wants is for Kyle Orton to develop into the 2nd coming of Jake Delhomme!

The problem will come when EFX draft a QB in the first round in 2012 and tell the fans that the rookie and Tebow "will be competing for the starting job."

If on the other hand the Broncos DON'T do the expected and draft a QB in 2012 then Tebow might well succeed Orton in Denver.

I'd give it about 1/4 odds.

Tebow was drafted by McDaniels who felt he could develop him into his type of QB. But, Tebow is not Fox's type of QB at all. Orton is. That could change of course between now and when Tebow's rookie contract expires, but it's more likely than not that Tebow will have to go elsewhere to get a chance.

I think it's too early to tell what Fox is thinking. My GUESS would be to let Orton start the season since their was basically no off season to get Tebow ready, then after a month or so put Tebow in to see what he can do.

The whole "Fox/Elway didn't draft Tebow so they don't care" is nonsense to me, because this franchise drafted him, and it would be stupid to not give him a legitimate shot.

Smart franchises don't just throw away a first round pick, so I guess we will see if we have a smart franchise or not.

Cugel
08-12-2011, 12:02 PM
I see what you mean. But I don't think you realize just how much Tebow struggles with reads. Whether that be identifying the defense, UNDERSTANDING defensive coverages (which is something he's the weakest on), and getting people to the right spot by calling the correct blocking assignments.

It's actually worse than that. ALL rookie QBs struggle with reading defenses. That's expected and comes with experience.

Where Tebow struggles is with the basic fundamentals: his footwork, his body positioning, his throwing motion, his passing accuracy, getting the ball released quickly.

It's like a hitter in baseball who can't hit the curve-ball. It's not just "something he'll get with experience." It's fundamental.

Most rookie QBs are CHOSEN because they do the fundamentals well. THEN the team hopes they develop the "intangibles" -- leadership, poise under pressure, competitiveness, etc.

Tebow was the opposite. He has all those "intangibles" but he lacks fundamental skills that other QBs have been developing for 4 years in college. Being able to drop back 3 steps and hit a timing pattern under a blitz.

Tebow never had to deal with that because he operated from the spread offense and could see the blitz coming and run away. It's a whole different world and in his first two years in the league he's struggled to adapt.

It's uncertain if he can ever master those skills.

Some guys who are great athletes just never learn to hit the curve ball. You can play center field like Willie Mays and run the bases like Ricky Henderson, but if you can't hit a curve, then you won't last in the major leagues. Same thing here.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:03 PM
You might as well include John Fox among the "idiots." Most EVERYBODY around the league thinks Tebow won't succeed -- or at least it'll be a long-term project.

If you put Fox under truth serum he'd say that what he REALLY wants is for Kyle Orton to develop into the 2nd coming of Jake Delhomme!

The problem will come when EFX draft a QB in the first round in 2012 and tell the fans that the rookie and Tebow "will be competing for the starting job."

If on the other hand the Broncos DON'T do the expected and draft a QB in 2012 then Tebow might well succeed Orton in Denver.

I'd give it about 1/4 odds.

Tebow was drafted by McDaniels who felt he could develop him into his type of QB. But, Tebow is not Fox's type of QB at all. Orton is. That could change of course between now and when Tebow's rookie contract expires, but it's more likely than not that Tebow will have to go elsewhere to get a chance.


Fox never said Tebow can succeed. Fox would not say that about Orton, since he tried to trade him already. If anything he of Tebow becoming the next steve young. You are still speculating. Fox must have saw something in Tebow if they tried to move Orton. You cant say he is not Fox's kind of QB since Fox was looking to draft him in 2010, just not 1st round. EFX did not draft Tebow, say so what he is still a young player drafted by the franchise and they also did not extend Orton to a contract worth more then he is. You are also assuming we draft a QB. Toss out Orton and I think we will be good. Since as shown last night Orton is a sitting duck in the red zone.

broncobryce
08-12-2011, 12:05 PM
It's actually worse than that. ALL rookie QBs struggle with reading defenses. That's expected and comes with experience.

Where Tebow struggles is with the basic fundamentals: his footwork, his body positioning, his throwing motion, his passing accuracy, getting the ball released quickly.

It's like a hitter in baseball who can't hit the curve-ball. It's not just "something he'll get with experience." It's fundamental.

Most rookie QBs are CHOSEN because they do the fundamentals well. THEN the team hopes they develop the "intangibles" -- leadership, poise under pressure, competitiveness, etc.

Tebow was the opposite. He has all those "intangibles" but he lacks fundamental skills that other QBs have been developing for 4 years in college. Being able to drop back 3 steps and hit a timing pattern under a blitz.

Tebow never had to deal with that because he operated from the spread offense and could see the blitz coming and run away. It's a whole different world and in his first two years in the league he's struggled to adapt.

It's uncertain if he can ever master those skills.

Some guys who are great athletes just never learn to hit the curve ball. You can play center field like Willie Mays and run the bases like Ricky Henderson, but if you can't hit a curve, then you won't last in the major leagues. Same thing here.

Just curious why do you have a picture of a Bronco getting his ass kicked in your sig? Did you lose a bet?

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:07 PM
It's actually worse than that. ALL rookie QBs struggle with reading defenses. That's expected and comes with experience.

Where Tebow struggles is with the basic fundamentals: his footwork, his body positioning, his throwing motion, his passing accuracy, getting the ball released quickly.

It's like a hitter in baseball who can't hit the curve-ball. It's not just "something he'll get with experience." It's fundamental.

Most rookie QBs are CHOSEN because they do the fundamentals well. THEN the team hopes they develop the "intangibles" -- leadership, poise under pressure, competitiveness, etc.

Tebow was the opposite. He has all those "intangibles" but he lacks fundamental skills that other QBs have been developing for 4 years in college. Being able to drop back 3 steps and hit a timing pattern under a blitz.

Tebow never had to deal with that because he operated from the spread offense and could see the blitz coming and run away. It's a whole different world and in his first two years in the league he's struggled to adapt.

It's uncertain if he can ever master those skills.

Some guys who are great athletes just never learn to hit the curve ball. You can play center field like Willie Mays and run the bases like Ricky Henderson, but if you can't hit a curve, then you won't last in the major leagues. Same thing here.


"You can teach fundamentals, but you cant teach the intangibles"- Elway when referring to Tebow. He also mentioned he is a great football player and a raw Qb.

That is why there are coaches. They tweek the players and modify their playing styles. As for Tebow he is not a strictly pocket passer. He is part of the most sophisticated run game in the NFL....a great running game with a QB who can pose as a running threat also. I do believe someone is the Denver FO said something about Denver having the most sophisticated running game.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:07 PM
Just curious why do you have a picture of a Bronco getting his ass kicked in your sig? Did you lose a bet?

he is actually a chiefs fan

xzn
08-12-2011, 12:10 PM
"You can teach fundamentals, but you cant teach the intangibles"- Elway when referring to Tebow. He also mentioned he is a great football player and a raw Qb.

That is why there are coaches. They tweek the players and modify their playing styles. As for Tebow he is not a strictly pocket passer. He is part of the most sophisticated run game in the NFL....a great running game with a QB who can pose as a running threat also. I do believe someone is the Denver FO said something about Denver having the most sophisticated running game.

That would have been Fox himself. :coffee:

Tned
08-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Edit we both know that you could have edited or deleted my response to you as you are admin. But chose not to.

So stop playing martyr.

I can't ever remember ever using negative comments about Hillis. He is a good kid.

As for the others it an't negative if it is factual.

As for embarrassment do not waste it on me there are plenty of others it should be used on.
Back to iggy for you.

Mobile Post via http://Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Jr, as a former mod, you know VERY well that I have NEVER and would NEVER delete a person's post because I didn't like it, nor a reply to a post of mine that I chose to delete. The ONLY thing I would ever do in that situation would be to report something and let the mods decide.

For you to even imply anything contrary to the fact is dishonest, to be kind.

I "could" ban you for being a troll, in the sense as the admin I have the vBulletin user rights to ban people, but banning is done by the mods.

I "could" delete a post other than mine, because as the admin I have the vBulletin user rights to delete/edit any post, but as YOU WELL KNOW, post moderation is done by the mods, not me. And, there is a specific rule even for the mods about not editing/moderating threads that they are involved in directly.

Geez, Jr, please refrain from outright lies, or insinuations of such, in the future. It's below even you.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:13 PM
That would have been Fox himself. :coffee:

I know, rhetorical question :salute::beer:

Cugel
08-12-2011, 12:14 PM
I think it's too early to tell what Fox is thinking. My GUESS would be to let Orton start the season since their was basically no off season to get Tebow ready, then after a month or so put Tebow in to see what he can do.

The whole "Fox/Elway didn't draft Tebow so they don't care" is nonsense to me, because this franchise drafted him, and it would be stupid to not give him a legitimate shot.

Smart franchises don't just throw away a first round pick, so I guess we will see if we have a smart franchise or not.

Josh McDaniels has the same opinion as me; and as virtually every NFL expert around the league (which is where I get my opinions BTW -- I don't invent this stuff).

He was interviewed the other day and they were talking about it on 104.3 The FAN and he said that when he drafted Tebow it wasn't just because he saw Tebow as a great athlete.

He said he knew his ability to develop raw rookie QBs and felt that he could mold Tebow into the kind of QB who would do well in his system.

But, when they fired McDaniels and hired Fox they brought in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT SYSTEM. McDaniels said he didn't think that the Broncos coaching staff is necessarily the best to coach Tebow -- because they want a different style of QB than McDaniels.

It's just a more conservative offensive approach. They like to run the ball, run the ball, and then go play-action pass based on their effectiveness in running the ball. Timing patterns, quick release, 3-step drops, and then throw a deep ball when it's unexpected to loosen up the defense. Then back to the run.

Don't you think that Orton sounds better suited to run that style of offense than Tebow?

That's why I said that Fox really wants Orton to get better and be Jake Delhomme. Delhomme was a similar QB to Orton, but more consistent.

And Fox kept with him as the starter for YEARS even under intense fan pressure to "jump Jake!"

I think McDaniels is right for once -- Tebow is just not a good fit with the new Broncos coaches -- so unless Tebow is able to completely change his game to be a lot more like Orton, then I don't see him ever being the Franchise QB here. :coffee:

As for "throwing away" a 1st round pick, I don't see them "throwing Tebow away." Why should they? They will keep him on the roster for the duration of his rookie contract and then trade him or cut him. And he'll be a backup who will get some playing time in certain special packages.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 12:14 PM
Elway has also stated that you HAVE to be a good pocket passer in the NFL to succeed. If we are going to pick and choose quotes. He's also stated that Tebow is not an accurate passer.

If I go by those two statements, then it would seem to indicate that being a good "football player" isn't what he's looking for... but a good QB.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:16 PM
Josh McDaniels has the same opinion as me; and as virtually every NFL expert around the league (which is where I get my opinions BTW -- I don't invent this stuff).

He was interviewed the other day and they were talking about it on 104.3 The FAN and he said that when he drafted Tebow it wasn't just because he saw Tebow as a great athlete.

He said he knew his ability to develop raw rookie QBs and felt that he could mold Tebow into the kind of QB who would do well in his system.

But, when they fired McDaniels and hired Fox they brought in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT SYSTEM. McDaniels said he didn't think that the Broncos coaching staff is necessarily the best to coach Tebow -- because they want a different style of QB than McDaniels.

It's just a more conservative offensive approach.

That's why I said that Fox really wants Orton to get better and be Jake Delhomme. Delhomme was a similar QB to Orton, but more consistent.

And Fox kept with him as the starter for YEARS even under intense fan pressure to "jump Jake!"

I think McDaniels is right for once -- Tebow is just not a good fit with the new Broncos coaches -- so unless Tebow is able to completely change his game to be a lot more like Orton, then I don't see him ever being the Franchise QB here. :coffee:


Show me an interview where Fox said this!!!!!!!!! PLEASE, or else stop saying it as a fact. Fox is a running coach, how does a dual threat QB not fit in to that, to create the most sophisticated running game.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:18 PM
Elway has also stated that you HAVE to be a good pocket passer in the NFL to succeed. If we are going to pick and choose quotes. He's also stated that Tebow is not an accurate passer.

If I go by those two statements, then it would seem to indicate that being a good "football player" isn't what he's looking for... but a good QB.

6/7 last night was good. I think he is more accurate then people give him cretid for, he was accurate in college too. Vick is not a pocket passer, Steve Young was not a complete pocket passes, he is was one of the most accurate ever too. There have been many others that use mobility to create time to make up for pocket presence.

Tned
08-12-2011, 12:18 PM
Elway has also stated that you HAVE to be a good pocket passer in the NFL to succeed. If we are going to pick and choose quotes. He's also stated that Tebow is not an accurate passer.

If I go by those two statements, then it would seem to indicate that being a good "football player" isn't what he's looking for... but a good QB.

If I take the totality of quotes I have seen from Elway, I would say he is not sold on Tebow. He may not be at the "write him off" stage, but also not at the "he's the Broncos future" stage. Somewhere in between.

BroncoStud
08-12-2011, 12:19 PM
Actually John Fox was very high on Tim Tebow coming out of college, he himself said so on multiple occasions.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Show me an interview where Fox said this!!!!!!!!! PLEASE, or else stop saying it as a fact. Fox is a running coach, how does a dual threat QB not fit in to that, to create the most sophisticated running game.

He never said it, he's proven it with his decision making over the years as a head coach. He wants a quarterback that can continually hand the ball off and at the same time can spread the field from within the pocket, specifically in regards to the long pass. You really need to watch some film of Dan Reeves and the Broncos of the mid 80's, it will show you much of what we see in Fox, because then you can watch the Fox of the last decade and you'll see the similarities.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:23 PM
He never said it, he's proven it with his decision making over the years as a head coach. He wants a quarterback that can continually hand the ball off and at the same time can spread the field from within the pocket, specifically in regards to the long pass. You really need to watch some film of Dan Reeves and the Broncos of the mid 80's, it will show you much of what we see in Fox, because then you can watch the Fox of the last decade and you'll see the similarities.

You are saying Fox is a copy of Dan Reeves? I remember some of Broncos in the 80s, mostly the later years.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 12:25 PM
6/7 last night was good. I think he is more accurate then people give him cretid for, he was accurate in college too. Vick is not a pocket passer, Steve Young was not a complete pocket passes, he is was one of the most accurate ever too. There have been many others that use mobility to create time to make up for pocket presence.

You aren't listening.. or reading.

You THINK Tebow to be more accurate, but as of yet, he hasn't shown more than a 50% accuracy percentage in real games. He's not a good passer, and THAT was known when he was drafted by those that break down game film and scout for the NFL.

Vick is not a good passer.... period.

Steve Young could absolutely run, but he WAS a good passer from the pocket. In fact, he holds one of the NFL's records for accuracy. Not to mention, Young was one of the very smartest QBs to play the game. There is nothing similar about Steve Young's game, and Tebow's. As of right now, Tebow generally moves out of the pocket with intent to run.

Using your mobility to create time is fantastic.. IF That is why they are moving. However, like the mobile Steve Young.. you HAVE to be able to throw from the pocket to be consistant and to succeed in the NFL. THat does NOT mean that you have to "plant" your feet in the pocket and not move. It means that when the time is right, and the passing game is needed, .. you MUST be an accurate passer from the pocket.

chazoe60
08-12-2011, 12:26 PM
If we get stuck with Orton for anything longer than this season I will start drowning kittens. I am not ******* kidding.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 12:27 PM
If we get stuck with Orton for anything longer than this season I will start drowning kittens. I am not ******* kidding.

No way Orton is here after the season. He's gone.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:28 PM
Actually John Fox was very high on Tim Tebow coming out of college, he himself said so on multiple occasions.

No he didn't, he looked at Tebow, even went to dinner with him and thought about drafting him. He's mentioned that Tebow made an impression on him on multiple occasions, that doesn't mean just regarding his ability to play the game, if you actually read it was his infectious attitude and upside that Fox loved about him. Don't forget that he said much the same about Clausen, and praised him as well, and Clausen will be lucky to be a backup in the league here pretty soon.

Nomad
08-12-2011, 12:28 PM
If we get stuck with Orton for anything longer than this season I will start drowning kittens. I am not ******* kidding.

sneakers will hunt you down....don't mess with his kittens!!:D

chazoe60
08-12-2011, 12:34 PM
sneakers will hunt you down....don't mess with his kittens!!:D

I will drown his kittens in a boiling pot on my stove turning them into a delicious stew which I will then feed to other kittens until a deadly "Mad Kitten" disease goes on to kill every kitten on the planet.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:34 PM
You aren't listening.. or reading.

You THINK Tebow to be more accurate, but as of yet, he hasn't shown more than a 50% accuracy percentage in real games. He's not a good passer, and THAT was known when he was drafted by those that break down game film and scout for the NFL.

Vick is not a good passer.... period.

Steve Young could absolutely run, but he WAS a good passer from the pocket. In fact, he holds one of the NFL's records for accuracy. Not to mention, Young was one of the very smartest QBs to play the game. There is nothing similar about Steve Young's game, and Tebow's. As of right now, Tebow generally moves out of the pocket with intent to run.

Using your mobility to create time is fantastic.. IF That is why they are moving. However, like the mobile Steve Young.. you HAVE to be able to throw from the pocket to be consistant and to succeed in the NFL. THat does NOT mean that you have to "plant" your feet in the pocket and not move. It means that when the time is right, and the passing game is needed, .. you MUST be an accurate passer from the pocket.


I listen and read just fine. I think Steve Young is who of all players, people would like Tebow to become, or atleast I do. Not Vick so much.

I am allowed my opinion and i state that its my opinion on my posts. But he was 85.7% passing last night. In college he was 67% (rounded up). If his 3 starts he was 50%. But that was college, that was a preseason game, and that was 3 starts as a rookie. He needs more games to be able to make an educated assumption of him being accurate or inaccurate.

When the kid takes his time to make a pass he is accurate. I saw that this preseason during TC when he nailed the cross bar twice. Once for fun and other in a small fun competition with Quinn and Orton. Tebow nailed it first, followed by Quinn and then Orton never did hit it.

His pocket presence is something he has to work on, I wont argue that fact. He needs to work on keeping his eyes up field when leaving the pocket. He also needs to be behind a line that can protect him, we know we dont have depth on our O-Line. He was in the pocket on his 47-yrd pass. IMO with more games under his belt he will learn to be more confident in his line and get confident in the pocket. From stuff I have read, that is one think he does not have, is confidence in the pocket.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:40 PM
You are saying Fox is a copy of Dan Reeves? I remember some of Broncos in the 80s, mostly the later years.

I would say that of all the current head coaches in the NFL, that Fox is the most like Reeves in regards to what he demands of his offense. He is a conservative coach, which is something that a lot of people disliked about Reeves, even worse now that the league is extremely pass happy. Elway said we would not be conservative offensively, but will be more run orientated. That tells me that there will be some middle ground where the two will sort of come together, not too conservative but I don't see Fox (who is a lot like Reeves) and Elway (who pretty much ran the same kind of offense here) seeing Tebow as that quarterback at least yet. Actually, if you asked them what two pro quarterbacks they would want for the offense who are currently pros' they'd probably both say Payton Manning and Jay Cutler, because of their ability to stand in the pocket and thread the deep ball with continual accuracy.

That doesn't mean that Tebow won't develop, but as I said last night...I saw too many flaws in his basic mechanics, his being too damn eager to run was the most costly because on all three I saw he had receivers open down field for the big gain, if he learned to pump fake and stick in the pocket and lace it down field, he'd be closer to their ideal quarterback then he is now.

Tangerine
08-12-2011, 12:43 PM
You aren't listening.. or reading.

You THINK Tebow to be more accurate, but as of yet, he hasn't shown more than a 50% accuracy percentage in real games. He's not a good passer, and THAT was known when he was drafted by those that break down game film and scout for the NFL.

Vick is not a good passer.... period.

Steve Young could absolutely run, but he WAS a good passer from the pocket. In fact, he holds one of the NFL's records for accuracy. Not to mention, Young was one of the very smartest QBs to play the game. There is nothing similar about Steve Young's game, and Tebow's. As of right now, Tebow generally moves out of the pocket with intent to run.

Using your mobility to create time is fantastic.. IF That is why they are moving. However, like the mobile Steve Young.. you HAVE to be able to throw from the pocket to be consistant and to succeed in the NFL. THat does NOT mean that you have to "plant" your feet in the pocket and not move. It means that when the time is right, and the passing game is needed, .. you MUST be an accurate passer from the pocket.

But, Young wasn't always an accurate passer, during his first 4 years he had a 53.3% completion rate. So you're trying to compare Steve Young during his best years to Tebow during his first few starts? That's not really a fair assessment.

arapaho2
08-12-2011, 12:44 PM
You aren't listening.. or reading.

You THINK Tebow to be more accurate, but as of yet, he hasn't shown more than a 50% accuracy percentage in real games. He's not a good passer, and THAT was known when he was drafted by those that break down game film and scout for the NFL.

Vick is not a good passer.... period.

Steve Young could absolutely run, but he WAS a good passer from the pocket. In fact, he holds one of the NFL's records for accuracy. Not to mention, Young was one of the very smartest QBs to play the game. There is nothing similar about Steve Young's game, and Tebow's. As of right now, Tebow generally moves out of the pocket with intent to run.

Using your mobility to create time is fantastic.. IF That is why they are moving. However, like the mobile Steve Young.. you HAVE to be able to throw from the pocket to be consistant and to succeed in the NFL. THat does NOT mean that you have to "plant" your feet in the pocket and not move. It means that when the time is right, and the passing game is needed, .. you MUST be an accurate passer from the pocket.

come on rav...lets put some reality into this statment

tebow was 50% in his "real games" that is true, but considering he never took a practise snap with the first unit thru the first 13 games,other than wildhose formations, and so had no chance to develop timing with the starting wrs ...50% is pretty good for a rookie in that situation

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 12:45 PM
I would say that of all the current head coaches in the NFL, that Fox is the most like Reeves in regards to what he demands of his offense. He is a conservative coach, which is something that a lot of people disliked about Reeves, even worse now that the league is extremely pass happy. Elway said we would not be conservative offensively, but will be more run orientated. That tells me that there will be some middle ground where the two will sort of come together, not too conservative but I don't see Fox (who is a lot like Reeves) and Elway (who pretty much ran the same kind of offense here) seeing Tebow as that quarterback at least yet. Actually, if you asked them what two pro quarterbacks they would want for the offense who are currently pros' they'd probably both say Payton Manning and Jay Cutler, because of their ability to stand in the pocket and thread the deep ball with continual accuracy.

That doesn't mean that Tebow won't develop, but as I said last night...I saw too many flaws in his basic mechanics, his being too damn eager to run was the most costly because on all three I saw he had receivers open down field for the big gain, if he learned to pump fake and stick in the pocket and lace it down field, he'd be closer to their ideal quarterback then he is now.


I think game time will help Tebow out a lot. But IMO trade Orton now and give Quinn the reigns and let Tebow work hard with QB coach for half the season and then let him play.

I think Tebow lacks confidence in the pocket and in his Oline. I think game time will help him build that confidence. When pressure comes he likes to move and then run. I saw Orton last night miss several open players. Like the TE standing on the goal line when he threw the ball away in the redzone. I think that pocket confidence is what will help Tebow out the most of all things. This is my opinion and am not trying to state it as a fact.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 12:50 PM
But, Young wasn't always an accurate passer, during his first 4 years he had a 53.3% completion rate. So you're trying to compare Steve Young during his best years to Tebow during his first few starts? That's not really a fair assessment.

Young was an enigma because he was a left handed quarterback and few coaches at the pro level knew how to develop a southpaw into an effective quarterback at this level. Bill Walsh however believed he could and developed him behind Montana for another three years before giving him the reigns. Difference is that Young had the intangibles, the physical abilities for the position just as much as Aikman, Montana, Elway, Kelley and so on, he just didn't transition as well because of his awkwardness. Young had the arm and quick release and was fairly accurate, he was better with time, but the coaches also knew they had to develop the offense around the fact that he was a left handed quarterback.

broncobryce
08-12-2011, 01:09 PM
I listen and read just fine. I think Steve Young is who of all players, people would like Tebow to become, or atleast I do. Not Vick so much.

I am allowed my opinion and i state that its my opinion on my posts. But he was 85.7% passing last night. In college he was 67% (rounded up). If his 3 starts he was 50%. But that was college, that was a preseason game, and that was 3 starts as a rookie. He needs more games to be able to make an educated assumption of him being accurate or inaccurate.

When the kid takes his time to make a pass he is accurate. I saw that this preseason during TC when he nailed the cross bar twice. Once for fun and other in a small fun competition with Quinn and Orton. Tebow nailed it first, followed by Quinn and then Orton never did hit it.

His pocket presence is something he has to work on, I wont argue that fact. He needs to work on keeping his eyes up field when leaving the pocket. He also needs to be behind a line that can protect him, we know we dont have depth on our O-Line. He was in the pocket on his 47-yrd pass. IMO with more games under his belt he will learn to be more confident in his line and get confident in the pocket. From stuff I have read, that is one think he does not have, is confidence in the pocket.

The games don't count, only practice.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 01:20 PM
I listen and read just fine. I think Steve Young is who of all players, people would like Tebow to become, or atleast I do. Not Vick so much.
Sure! I would LOVE for Tebow to become a 2nd Steve Young.. that woudl be Awesome! I would love that as well.


I am allowed my opinion and i state that its my opinion on my posts. But he was 85.7% passing last night. In college he was 67% (rounded up). If his 3 starts he was 50%. But that was college, that was a preseason game, and that was 3 starts as a rookie. He needs more games to be able to make an educated assumption of him being accurate or inaccurate.

Not sure I agree. I mean if you think he's going to become a more accurate passer, maybe. I can't really say he won't, but .....


When the kid takes his time to make a pass he is accurate. I saw that this preseason during TC when he nailed the cross bar twice. Once for fun and other in a small fun competition with Quinn and Orton. Tebow nailed it first, followed by Quinn and then Orton never did hit it.

Yeah, I've seen that done with a LOT of videos on YouTube. You'll be surprised how many QBs can do that. I wouldn't use that as a guide. EVERY QB that has the skills enough to be drafted into the NFL, are accurate passers when standing still. I'm certainly not going to compare Tebow to the average guy throwing the ball. I'm going to compare him to the standards set by NFL QBs. So EVERy QB that is good enough to be drafted into the NFL can be accurate. I mean, just stand on the sidelines and watch any of them warm-up before the games. The 3rd QB looks like an all-star the way he's hitting crossing routes. SO thats not exactly what people are talking about when they talk about his inaccuracy.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 01:28 PM
But, Young wasn't always an accurate passer, during his first 4 years he had a 53.3% completion rate. So you're trying to compare Steve Young during his best years to Tebow during his first few starts? That's not really a fair assessment.

Fair point.

But Steve Young was always considered an accurate passer, even when coming out of college. Even when failing with that horrible TB team. This is why stats alone, never tell the story.


tebow was 50% in his "real games" that is true, but considering he never took a practise snap with the first unit thru the first 13 games,other than wildhose formations, and so had no chance to develop timing with the starting wrs ...50% is pretty good for a rookie in that situation

I also don't buy into the "he NEVER too a practice snap" stuff. Thats complete exaggeration by the fans...and this is coming from a guy that absolutely HATES McDoosh. So don't think I'm defending that worthless shit-hole. But it gets exaggerated the more and more we need excuses for Tim.

50% is never good. Never.

I want Tebow to start because I know I'm looking towards the future of thist eam. I don't think he's a good passer, and certainly don't think he'll ever be the passer we NEED him to be in order for him to be a top QB. But, I know I would rather have him in the lineup....right now. I just don't think he's EVER going to be a top passer, and if you don't have a QB thats a top passer, then you aren't consistant contenders. Thats all I'm saying.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 01:34 PM
Fair point.

But Steve Young was always considered an accurate passer, even when coming out of college. Even when failing with that horrible TB team. This is why stats alone, never tell the story.



I also don't buy into the "he NEVER too a practice snap" stuff. Thats complete exaggeration by the fans...and this is coming from a guy that absolutely HATES McDoosh. So don't think I'm defending that worthless shit-hole. But it gets exaggerated the more and more we need excuses for Tim.

50% is never good. Never.

I want Tebow to start because I know I'm looking towards the future of thist eam. I don't think he's a good passer, and certainly don't think he'll ever be the passer we NEED him to be in order for him to be a top QB. But, I know I would rather have him in the lineup....right now. I just don't think he's EVER going to be a top passer, and if you don't have a QB thats a top passer, then you aren't consistant contenders. Thats all I'm saying.


I dont think its fair to any QB to say he will never be able to do anything. Look at J. Russell, should I say Brady, late late round draft pick and look at him now. He worked his ass off to get to where he is. I think Tebow will do the same, I cant say he will become as good as Brady but he will get better. I do however think he needs to do different workouts then he did over the post season. I think he needs to hire a QB coach and work with them rather then on his own if he wants to really improve his mechanics.

Ravage!!!
08-12-2011, 01:50 PM
I dont think its fair to any QB to say he will never be able to do anything. Look at J. Russell, should I say Brady, late late round draft pick and look at him now. He worked his ass off to get to where he is. I think Tebow will do the same, I cant say he will become as good as Brady but he will get better. I do however think he needs to do different workouts then he did over the post season. I think he needs to hire a QB coach and work with them rather then on his own if he wants to really improve his mechanics.

Its purely a guess based on what I see. I didn't say he won't be "anything".. I said I don't think Tebow will be the PASSER that we need. There are QBs that have moderately successful careers in the NFL that have been runners (Cunningham is one, Vince Young, hell, even Vick). But if you want your team to be CONSISTANT playoff/super bowl contenders, you HAVE to have a QB that is a GOOD/VERY GOOD passer from the pocket. Thats how you win in the NFL.

Brady is a rarity. He didn't get where he is because he worked harder than anyone/everyone else. He got where he is because he's a VERy smart QB, and a very ACCURATE QB. One that doesn't have mobility, but can move around the pocket. One that recognizes defenses, and understands coverages. He did coming out of college (and sat a year).

Any team can win with the right combination of players/coaching on the field. But to be CONSISTANT winners and contenders, you need the QB position to be tops.... and THAT is what I dont think Tebow will ever be.

I don't dislike him as a person...hell, I don't even dislike him as a player. I just feel very confident that he's never going to be a top-flight passer.

Npba900
08-12-2011, 01:53 PM
If we get stuck with Orton for anything longer than this season I will start drowning kittens. I am not ******* kidding.

Don't worry......Elway is envisioning drafting in the first round a QB in 2012 who has played in an NFL style offense and do not have the mechanical and fundamental flaws that Tebow currently has.

Point is, Orton nor Tebow are the future of this franchise. Both QB's were brought in by McD. New head coaches will want their own QB's.

Cutler was drafted by Shanahan....Shanahan is fired.

McD is hired and inherits Cutler. McD finds that Cutler didn't fit into his plans.....Cutler is traded in the end.

McD brings in Orton and drafts Tebow a year later #1. McD fired one year later.

Fox is hired and inherits Orton and Tebow......we don't know if either Orton nor Tebow will be on the Broncos roster either in 2012 or 2013.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 01:55 PM
Its purely a guess based on what I see. I didn't say he won't be "anything".. I said I don't think Tebow will be the PASSER that we need. There are QBs that have moderately successful careers in the NFL that have been runners (Cunningham is one, Vince Young, hell, even Vick). But if you want your team to be CONSISTANT playoff/super bowl contenders, you HAVE to have a QB that is a GOOD/VERY GOOD passer from the pocket. Thats how you win in the NFL.

Brady is a rarity. He didn't get where he is because he worked harder than anyone/everyone else. He got where he is because he's a VERy smart QB, and a very ACCURATE QB. One that doesn't have mobility, but can move around the pocket. One that recognizes defenses, and understands coverages. He did coming out of college (and sat a year).

Any team can win with the right combination of players/coaching on the field. But to be CONSISTANT winners and contenders, you need the QB position to be tops.... and THAT is what I dont think Tebow will ever be.

I don't dislike him as a person...hell, I don't even dislike him as a player. I just feel very confident that he's never going to be a top-flight passer.

Give him a season as a starting QB and ask me at the end of the season....I will tell you what I think then. I just dont think we have had enough time to look at him and watch him develop. Back in the day QBs got a season or 2 to get feet wet before they were made to start. Now a days they want QBs to start week 1 which is a lot more pressure on them.

Tned
08-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Don't worry......Elway is envisioning drafting in the first round a QB in 2012 who has played in an NFL style offense and do not have the mechanical and fundamental flaws that Tebow currently has.

Point is, Orton nor Tebow are the future of this franchise. Both QB's were brought in by McD. New head coaches will want their own QB's.

Cutler was drafted by Shanahan....Shanahan is fired.

McD is hired and inherits Cutler. McD finds that Cutler didn't fit into his plans.....Cutler is traded in the end.

McD brings in Orton and drafts Tebow a year later #1. McD fired one year later.

Fox is hired and inherits Orton and Tebow......we don't know if either Orton nor Tebow will be on the Broncos roster either in 2012 or 2013.

The problem with that approach, which is part of the revolving HC syndrome, is that if Fox brings in his QB next year, then gets fired at the end of 2012 or 2013, the next HC then may want a different QB. It's part of the vicious cycle when teams get into HC revolving door situations, which is the one reason part of me was hoping the Broncos would give McDaniels enough time to see if he could rebuild what he had burnt to the ground.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 02:20 PM
The problem with that approach, which is part of the revolving HC syndrome, is that if Fox brings in his QB next year, then gets fired at the end of 2012 or 2013, the next HC then may want a different QB. It's part of the vicious cycle when teams get into HC revolving door situations, which is the one reason part of me was hoping the Broncos would give McDaniels enough time to see if he could rebuild what he had burnt to the ground.

Fox unlike McDaniels will be given at least four years because of his past success within the league. McDaniels was a rookie head coach that not only turned a well respected organization into a media circus, he made bad choices all the way around and from the beginning...add in his inexperience, then it's easy to see why he didn't deserve more time. Fox is completely different, Bowlen will also feel that quitting on Fox too soon would be to quit on Elway in a fashion and I don't see that happening.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 02:32 PM
Give him a season as a starting QB and ask me at the end of the season....I will tell you what I think then. I just dont think we have had enough time to look at him and watch him develop. Back in the day QBs got a season or 2 to get feet wet before they were made to start. Now a days they want QBs to start week 1 which is a lot more pressure on them.

Tebow didn't have pressure on him because of the fact that he was a project quarterback, if not for the fans' overall disdain of Orton and his own meltdown no one would have seen Tebow till maybe the final game last season. Fact is that what is most likely going to happen is that Denver will have a top ten pick, and they'll see Matt Barkley and Lance Jones sitting there and will more then likely pull the trigger, then whomever they draft will compete with Tebow, if he's truly ready then no rookie should be able to beat him out and he'll get a year to prove himself, even if we wait to take who ever falls into the second round, there is a 95% chance that Denver will draft a quarterback early. If Tebow proves himself then he could be traded for a solid draft pick to a team that wants him and then they start the rookie, if Tebow is not ready and the rookie is better then he becomes the possible franchise quarterback...it's rather simple from my standpoint.

NightTerror218
08-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Tebow didn't have pressure on him because of the fact that he was a project quarterback, if not for the fans' overall disdain of Orton and his own meltdown no one would have seen Tebow till maybe the final game last season. Fact is that what is most likely going to happen is that Denver will have a top ten pick, and they'll see Matt Barkley and Lance Jones sitting there and will more then likely pull the trigger, then whomever they draft will compete with Tebow, if he's truly ready then no rookie should be able to beat him out and he'll get a year to prove himself, even if we wait to take who ever falls into the second round, there is a 95% chance that Denver will draft a quarterback early. If Tebow proves himself then he could be traded for a solid draft pick to a team that wants him and then they start the rookie, if Tebow is not ready and the rookie is better then he becomes the possible franchise quarterback...it's rather simple from my standpoint.


There is almost no way I see Denver trading Tebow until maybe last year on contract, but till then he will stay with team. There would be a huge uproar if he is trade before he gets a chance to start. And IMO would be a stupid choice on the FO part. The franchise invested in him, they will need to also, even if they did not draft him. I also see Tebow helping out a rookie QB more then Orton would. Orton is not a mentor and not a leader. Tebow would be both.

Northman
08-12-2011, 02:38 PM
The problem with that approach, which is part of the revolving HC syndrome, is that if Fox brings in his QB next year, then gets fired at the end of 2012 or 2013, the next HC then may want a different QB. It's part of the vicious cycle when teams get into HC revolving door situations, which is the one reason part of me was hoping the Broncos would give McDaniels enough time to see if he could rebuild what he had burnt to the ground.

Yep. I couldnt of imagined Jim Caldwell coming in and saying to himself i need to get a new QB just because the old coach isnt here. Sure, Manning has done more to this point in his career but simply replacing players without giving them enough time to show what they have is never the answer.

Lancane
08-12-2011, 02:45 PM
There is almost no way I see Denver trading Tebow until maybe last year on contract, but till then he will stay with team. There would be a huge uproar if he is trade before he gets a chance to start. And IMO would be a stupid choice on the FO part. The franchise invested in him, they will need to also, even if they did not draft him. I also see Tebow helping out a rookie QB more then Orton would. Orton is not a mentor and not a leader. Tebow would be both.

The franchise is not invested in him, that's like saying the franchise is invested in Demaryius Thomas, Robert Ayers or even Knowshon Moreno (All higher draft picks then Tebow)...do you think they're really afraid to trade or cut any of their asses should they feel it was warranted? It's the fans who are invested, but as Elway clearly pointed out a week ago that the fans don't make the decisions, if that was true then either Quinn or Tebow himself would already be the starting quarterback. And the Tebowmaniacs are not Broncomaniacs, there are some that are both, but most of us realize that the Broncos will do what they feel is best, and Elway knows the value of a franchise quarterback...that's why he was looking hard at the quarterbacks in the last draft, add in that the next one is latent with quarterback talent?

The only person invested in Tebow is Tebow himself now that McDaniels is gone, he needs to earn his position, but from what I saw he is still a bit away from where he needs to be to even really compete for the position.