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View Full Version : Why Tebow Will Never Be The Broncos Starter. . .Timing!



Cugel
08-10-2011, 08:12 AM
Without stating an opinion about whether Tebow will EVER learn to be a drop-back pocket-passing QB in the league, and even assuming that Orton will be gone next year, the following is clear. He's not going to get much of a chance to be the Broncos starting QB.

His timing is simply unfortunate.

The logic is clear:

1. At some point this off-season the Broncos considered Tebow to be a probable starter for 2011 -- or they wouldn't have been shopping Orton.

2. When Fox got Tebow into camp and saw for himself his problems with technique that instantly changed. Orton was off the market and became the Broncos starter. The veterans rallied around Orton. At this point the Broncos have NO intention of starting Tebow in 2011.

3. It's beyond clear that Fox is NOT going to name Tebow the starter unless and until he masters the skills of being an accurate pocket passer. He's not going to go with a guy who's only comfortable in the shot-gun and running the ball -- regardless of his other skills.

After 11 years head coaching Fox is not going to suddenly say: "I like the spread offense as my base offense!" And this won't change if Tebow comes in for a few games for Orton and does as well as he did last year -- running the spread offense.

4. The problem for Tebow is that the team won't know much more about whether he can EVER master the skills needed to be a successful drop-back pocket-passing QB in January 2012.

Tebow will be practicing with the second team and Orton is getting most of the reps in practice and time with the starters. And coaches attention.

Between now and the end of the season the coaches have to concentrate all their energy getting ready for next Sunday -- breaking down film, installing the game plan, working with the starters. All of it centered around winning the next game.

They're not going to have much time if any to spend working with Tebow on his fundamentals.

5. Tebow meanwhile will be concentrating on practicing HIS plays -- the plays he'll be running in his special packages if he gets into games -- essentially his running plays (we saw this package last year).

6. It's not going to be until NEXT winter that the coaches will have the time to devote to trying to help Tebow develop his basic skills -- IF he can even do that.

If you can't master the 3-step drop and throw accurate passes from the pocket and accurately and quickly read the defense, it doesn't matter at all what ELSE you can do. You're not going to ever become a starting QB in the NFL.

7. So, Broncos coaches won't KNOW whether Tebow can do it in January. And January is the DECISION DATE for the Broncos.

At that point they have to decide: "Do we keep Orton and re-sign him to a long-term contract? Is Tebow our franchise QB and we build around him? Is Brady Quinn? Or do we need to get a starter?"

8. Here's the REAL PROBLEM for Tebow: Assuming Orton is gone, since the team won't know in January IF Tebow can ever be that guy, they have to get another QB.

The Rule In The NFL Is: "Thou Shalt get Thy Franchise QB Before Any Other Thing!" If you don't have that guy then priority #1 is to get him right away so that you can start training him and building a team around him.

That's why the Panthers who could certainly have used Dareus, or Miller or Patrick Peterson (badly) took a leap of faith on Cam Newton. You may want to argue that teams "don't have to do that." But they all disagree. That's exactly what they do. To do otherwise simply wastes a season since the team can't ever really succeed until they have their QB and every coach wants "his guy" as their #1 priority.

The Broncos will either draft a rookie QB (like Luck or someone as close to him as they can get), or sign a FA veteran who can come in and start.

Probably they will draft a rookie QB with their #1 pick. Where does that leave Tebow?

The rookie would presumably be much better at the basic drop-back passing skills Tebow lacks (while probably not being as good as Tebow at other things). But, those basics are what Fox wants. The rookie is going to have the advantage. They'll have just committed a $20-25 million contract to him for one thing and spent a #1 draft pick on him.

In any case Tebow will probably be fighting for a job against a veteran to start in 2012, and with a rookie QB being groomed behind him.

The overwhelming probability is that he'll play out his rookie contract and have to go elsewhere to become a starter.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 08:28 AM
After about mid-season, once we've lost several games already...then it will be time to bring Tebow in because even the veterans of the team will relent that the season isn't going anywhere. Might as bring the young kid in.

Although Tebow can make something happen outside the pocket.... we need a QB that can make things happen WITHIN the pocket. Hopefully by the end of the year, Tebow can prove to be that guy.

Its not Fox, and its not Elway. Its Tebow that is standing in Tebow's way.

SoCalImport
08-10-2011, 08:30 AM
wouldn't be the first QB to get "NFL ready" by being a back-up for 2-3 years. Folk think that if we don't find out for sure about Tebow NOW then we're screwing ourselves but I don't see it that way at all.
I don't see the Broncos being the worst team in the league in 2011. Bottom half, probably but not the worst So no shot at Luck or any other QB that goes top 5.
Tebow will, in all likelihood, make it as a starter eventually. Maybe in Denver (hope so), maybe not.

Non of this is prevalent in Coach fox's mind atm. He's got a job to do (win games this season).

EastCoastBronco
08-10-2011, 08:31 AM
The whole house of cards will come crashing in after the first 10 or 12 trips to the red zone yield 8 or 9 field goal attempts instead of touchdowns.
Mark my words...
I've seen the Orton movie before...and the goddam sequel.
They both scored low on my Tomato meter.
I'm ready for a change in our QB dept, no matter how raw and inexperienced Tebow is.

BroncoJoe
08-10-2011, 08:37 AM
Timing comes with practice.

Of which, Tebow had virtually zero reps last year.

Then the lockout - no OTA's, only player organized "get togethers".

Tebow will never grow as a QB riding the bench. It's not in his DNA.

underrated29
08-10-2011, 09:52 AM
John ekway disagrees with you cugel.

Furthermore even if Tebow sits the whole year and we win only 8granted games....Imo we will not not not take a qb with out #1.

HammeredOut
08-10-2011, 10:07 AM
The whole house of cards will come crashing in after the first 10 or 12 trips to the red zone yield 8 or 9 field goal attempts instead of touchdowns.
Mark my words...I've seen the Orton movie before...and the goddam sequel.
They both scored low on my Tomato meter.
I'm ready for a change in our QB dept, no matter how raw and inexperienced Tebow is.

Well the Broncos had a better Red Zone TD percentage then the Eagles last season. So maybe the same thing happens in Philly this season when Vick doesnt get it done... lol

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 11:27 AM
ugh here we go again....are you also one of the people who said he would never play a down in the NFL?

Northman
08-10-2011, 11:33 AM
Furthermore even if Tebow sits the whole year and we win only 8granted games....Imo we will not not not take a qb with out #1.

Not so sure of that UD. I never thought we would draft Tebow after McD said Orton was his guy.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 11:37 AM
Not so sure of that UD. I never thought we would draft Tebow after McD said Orton was his guy.

It will cost us a lot more then it did with the Ravens we gave up 6 picks for Tebow.....how many would you think we need to give up for Luck......10? Cause #1 spot diff then #25

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 11:38 AM
The only way we don't draft a QB #1 next draft is if Tebow gets in and really impresses.

I think it's 80+% that we draft a QB. 15% that Tebow shows the powers that be he can be the guy and 5% that Orton earns an extension.

Orton getting an extension is by far the worst option, thank God it's also probably the longest shot.

Northman
08-10-2011, 11:40 AM
It will cost us a lot more then it did with the Ravens we gave up 6 picks for Tebow.....how many would you think we need to give up for Luck......10? Cause #1 spot diff then #25

Im not even saying its going to be Luck. Im not sure we will be that bad to be in the running. But the talk of a deep QB class coming up next year could mean anyone and if Denver is looking for a new QB and im just saying i wouldnt be surprised to see them draft one.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 11:41 AM
John ekway disagrees with you cugel.

Furthermore even if Tebow sits the whole year and we win only 8granted games....Imo we will not not not take a qb with out #1.


Not so sure of that UD. I never thought we would draft Tebow after McD said Orton was his guy.

Five months from now Elway could be singing a different tune altogether. He and Fox might decide Orton is the next best thing to sliced bread. I think that's unlikely but it is possible. It possible by the end of season Elway and will come to the conclusion that Tebow wont be the answer either and then starts looking to next year's draft for a franchise quarterback.

Northman
08-10-2011, 11:47 AM
Five months from now Elway could be singing a different tune altogether. He and Fox might decide Orton is the next best thing to sliced bread. I think that's unlikely but it is possible. It possible by the end of season Elway and will come to the conclusion that Tebow wont be the answer either and then starts looking to next year's draft for a franchise quarterback.

Absolutely.

Maybe Elway and co. go in the build a epic defense route and keep Kyle a Dilfer type of QB. Anything is possible.

Dirk
08-10-2011, 11:58 AM
If they aren't keeping Orton and Tebow gets to play and he shows that he isn't our guy....I say break the bank and get Luck. Mortgage the next draft for him and fill holes with free agency. What's another bad season (2012) if you get Luck for many to come?

yeah I know it sounds crazy...but I wouldn't complain.

weazel
08-10-2011, 12:20 PM
sorry, but the reason he wont be the starter is the following...
1. throws from the hip
2. awkward footwork
3. slow decision making
4. has a run first mentality

Why do we need to make all these other excuses? He is not as good as the guys in front of him. Is Orton great? no, not at all... but he's better than Tebow

weazel
08-10-2011, 12:20 PM
If they aren't keeping Orton and Tebow gets to play and he shows that he isn't our guy....I say break the bank and get Luck. Mortgage the next draft for him and fill holes with free agency. What's another bad season (2012) if you get Luck for many to come?

yeah I know it sounds crazy...but I wouldn't complain.

I could live with that

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 12:23 PM
Im not even saying its going to be Luck. Im not sure we will be that bad to be in the running. But the talk of a deep QB class coming up next year could mean anyone and if Denver is looking for a new QB and im just saying i wouldnt be surprised to see them draft one.

They always talk about deep QB classes....and you might get 2 that turn out instead of 1. Remember 1 out of 15 make it. Odds are still not great. But figure 1 per draft and if next year is deep then figure 2.....so I think I would draft out of CALI for a QB....only 2 of them I am hearing about.

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 12:24 PM
They always talk about deep QB classes....and you might get 2 that turn out instead of 1. Remember 1 out of 15 make it. Odds are still not great. But figure 1 per draft and if next year is deep then figure 2.....so I think I would draft out of CALI for a QB....only 2 of them I am hearing about.

They are already predicting 6 in the first round. Obviously that will change by april, but there certainly are more than 2. Its supposed to be a very good QB class.... unlike last year that was thought of as a very POOR QB class.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 12:28 PM
They are already predicting 6 in the first round. Obviously that will change by april, but there certainly are more than 2. Its supposed to be a very good QB class.... unlike last year that was thought of as a very POOR QB class.

I meant as in 2 successful starting QBs. IF so they how come 5 or so were taken in this years 1st round if they knew next year was going to be so deep? I would figure the scouts and teams would see that and not waste a pick this year on a QB and next year.:rolleyes:

jlarsiii
08-10-2011, 12:34 PM
Timing comes with practice.

Of which, Tebow had virtually zero reps last year.

Then the lockout - no OTA's, only player organized "get togethers".

Tebow will never grow as a QB riding the bench. It's not in his DNA.

Well, he better make it his DNA if he wants to improve as a QB. The whole idea of grooming a QB is that they improve over a few years to the point where they can become the starter and win games.

If he can't do that then we need to be done with him right now and move on. . .

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 12:37 PM
I meant as in 2 successful starting QBs. IF so they how come 5 or so were taken in this years 1st round if they knew next year was going to be so deep? I would figure the scouts and teams would see that and not waste a pick this year on a QB and next year.:rolleyes:

No. They don't know where they aare going to draft next year. They draft on where they are at NOW.

But how many evenutally "work out" in the NFL doesn't really matter...because teams HAVE to take their chances that they did the right scouting and found THEIR guy.

Last year was considered a WEAK QB class. Newton was your top choice? That says all that needs to be said.

I don't know what you are rolling your eyes at.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 12:53 PM
No. They don't know where they aare going to draft next year. They draft on where they are at NOW.

But how many evenutally "work out" in the NFL doesn't really matter...because teams HAVE to take their chances that they did the right scouting and found THEIR guy.

Last year was considered a WEAK QB class. Newton was your top choice? That says all that needs to be said.

I don't know what you are rolling your eyes at.

Wasting a pick on a QB this year knowing next year is strong. Having one of the best DL deep class in years.

chazoe60
08-10-2011, 12:56 PM
DeMarcus Ware could change this QB controversy forever on one play Thursday night.








Anybody know where I can get a DeMarcus ware jersey on short notice?















I kid, I kid.

jlarsiii
08-10-2011, 12:56 PM
Wasting a pick on a QB this year knowing next year is strong. Having one of the best DL deep class in years.

Rav is right though. As a HC you have to draft the QB if you think you lack the franchise player. Every coach will do this even in a weak class.

It is the logic that Mchalfabrain used to move up and select Tebow.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 12:58 PM
Rav is right though. As a HC you have to draft the QB if you think you lack the franchise player. Every coach will do this even in a weak class.

It is the logic that Mchalfabrain used to move up and select Tebow.


Then how come you dont see the same teams drafting QBs left and right with holes at QB. They tend to draft who will help the team the most and not focus on a prayer that this one will work out.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 01:03 PM
Absolutely.

Maybe Elway and co. go in the build a epic defense route and keep Kyle a Dilfer type of QB. Anything is possible.

I hope they can go more of Green Bay Packer route. Terrific defense and a franchise quarterback to boot.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 01:06 PM
If they aren't keeping Orton and Tebow gets to play and he shows that he isn't our guy....I say break the bank and get Luck. Mortgage the next draft for him and fill holes with free agency. What's another bad season (2012) if you get Luck for many to come?

yeah I know it sounds crazy...but I wouldn't complain.

I guess you're assuming we wont have another 4-12 season or worse? The chances are we wont be as bad as we were last year then again we wont know until we're into the season.

BigDaddyBronco
08-10-2011, 01:11 PM
I guess you're assuming we wont have another 4-12 season or worse? The chances are we wont be as bad as we were last year then again we wont know until we're into the season.

I think a lot of people think that not having McD around is worth 2 games. I'm thinking that a defense with a pass rush might be worth 2 games. With an improved run game and defense they ought to be better than last year.

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 01:14 PM
I think a lot of people think that not having McD around is worth 2 games. I'm thinking that a defense with a pass rush might be worth 2 games. With an improved run game and defense they ought to be better than last year.

I hope so but our schedule looks like a bugger.

jlarsiii
08-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Then how come you dont see the same teams drafting QBs left and right with holes at QB. They tend to draft who will help the team the most and not focus on a prayer that this one will work out.

To my knowledge they do. That doesn't mean that they are all picked in the first round though. Just look at all the QBs that have come to the Broncos since Elway retired if you want to see proof of that. Every QB on our roster was added to this team in the last 40 months or so. . .

CoachChaz
08-10-2011, 01:33 PM
If Orton chokes...play Quinn. Not Tebow. The current organization and staff owe him nothing

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 01:36 PM
If Orton chokes...play Quinn. Not Tebow. The current organization and staff owe him nothing

They don't owe Quinn anything either for that matter.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 01:36 PM
John ekway disagrees with you cugel.

Furthermore even if Tebow sits the whole year and we win only 8granted games....Imo we will not not not take a qb with out #1.

When asked to describe Tebow's current development yesterday Elway said: "very raw." That's what prompted me to write this article. Elway and John Fox are the ones with the opinion that Tebow can't be relied on in 2011. If they felt he was ready to be the starter I'd say "well let's see what happens." I wouldn't say "they're wrong!" :coffee:

Cugel
08-10-2011, 01:39 PM
To my knowledge they do. That doesn't mean that they are all picked in the first round though. Just look at all the QBs that have come to the Broncos since Elway retired if you want to see proof of that. Every QB on our roster was added to this team in the last 40 months or so. . .

Orton was a 4th round QB, but he's a 4 year starter. The Broncos didn't draft him and develop him. That's one option. Get a veteran who failed with another team and hope a new start will help him.

The other is to draft a QB. Notice that both Brady Quinn and Tebow are 1st round picks.

That's just where you usually get QBs. First round.

IF EFX decide they need to draft a QB they will very probably use their 1st round pick on one. Waiting until the 2nd is just too risky.

Of course, they may not be ABLE to draft one (one they like might not be available or they might not be able to trade up for one). In that case they have to sign a veteran and their development gets set back another year.

Traveler
08-10-2011, 01:44 PM
Rav is right though. As a HC you have to draft the QB if you think you lack the franchise player. Every coach will do this even in a weak class.

It is the logic that Mchalfabrain used to move up and select Tebow.

And therein lies the rub. That fact that we are even talking about drafting a(nother) franchise QB shows just how far this team has sunk.

We supposedly had our QBOTF in 2006. We drafted Tebow last year. Due to the lockout, it's clear he's not ready for prime time.

The team has a real dilemma on their hands. It's clear Orton isn't viewed as the long term answer. Through lack of training and playing time, Tebow won't/can't be evaluated enough to know if they need to dip into the QB pool in next years draft.

Do they draft another QB in 2012? Or will they take the chance Tebow will improve enough to become the QBOTF? Elway stated in the article to he won't give up on Tebow. Won't hold my breath on that.

To summarize this QB situation, it's possible we could invest three 1st round draft choices on a QB within six years (counting next year).

The more I think about this possibility, the angrier I become at our former HC.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 01:50 PM
Here's a thing I want to emphasize guys:

Let's assume that Orton gets hurt and Tebow gets his chance to start in 2011.

Let's further assume that he does as well as he did last year. The problem is that he can only run those plays (spread formation running plays) that he's comfortable with. Just like last year. He's clearly not very good from under center yet. And he won't improve until he gets months of daily coaching on his fundamentals, -- if he ever manages it.

What happens then? Answer: Nothing.

Tebow is STILL not going to be a pocket passing QB. Fox is STILL not going to name Tebow as "his guy" unless he's convinced Tebow will become a successful pocket passing QB.

They STILL need to find another QB. They still draft a rookie and say to the disgruntled Tebowniacs that "Tebow will be given a chance to compete."

Only the fix will be in. Tebow will stay on the roster until his rookie contract expires. But, the rookie will get the starting nod unless he sucks and Tebow develops by 2013.

Even then Tebow would probably not get the job.

His problem is that he's Josh McDaniels' pick not Fox's. Fox doesn't have to defend that pick. He wants "his guy."

New coaches = new QBs, because every new coach doesn't want to be stuck with the former coach's draft choices. Notice that Fox is clearing house of all the McDaniels' players. (Most suck of course so that's good).

It's just more noticeable with Tebow. Remember that most QBs are drafted because they learned those drop-back passing skills through years of repetitions until it becomes second nature to them.

To Tebow it's like he's trying to learn Chinese. So Fox is simply going to want a more traditional QB. Either Tebow convinces him that he's become that guy -- or Fox gets his OWN guy.

Lancane
08-10-2011, 02:05 PM
I meant as in 2 successful starting QBs. IF so they how come 5 or so were taken in this years 1st round if they knew next year was going to be so deep? I would figure the scouts and teams would see that and not waste a pick this year on a QB and next year.:rolleyes:

The answer is actually rather simple, those teams that reached in taking a first round quarterback in the previous draft did so because they were unsure if or when there would be free agency, what the rules of free agency would be and so forth. They basically drafted for need over best available player because the lack of surety in the direction the league would take this season.

Regarding this next draft class...well, I'll tell you from my point of view there is more then two who impress the hell out of me.

As of August 9th 2011 the NDS ranked the top quarterback prospects in the 2012 NFL Draft as such...

Andrew Luck - Stanford (Top 3 Pick)
Matt Barkley - USC (Top 5 Pick)
Landry Jones - Oklahoma (Top 10 Pick)

Now here is what makes this very interesting, all three are underclassmen. The top seniors in the draft are Nick Foles - Arizona, Ryan Lindley - San Diego State, Kirk Cousins - Michigan State, Ryan Tannehill - Texas A&M, Brandon Weeden - Oklahoma State, Chandler Harnish - Northern Illinois and B.J. Coleman - Chattanooga.

However, we also have to calculate not the rest of the seniors which there are many more (about twenty or so) but the underclassmen like Luck, Barkley and Jones who could possibly get in the mix if they have astounding seasons, such as Tyler Wilson - Arkansas, Robert Griffin - Baylor or Geno Smith - West Virginia, not to exclude any sophomores or other juniors who could likewise be a surprise.

This all points to an extremely deep quarterback class, better then I've seen in at least a few decades.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 02:12 PM
The answer is actually rather simple, those teams that reached in taking a first round quarterback in the previous draft did so because they were unsure if or when there would be free agency, what the rules of free agency would be and so forth. They basically drafted for need over best available player because the lack of surety in the direction the league would take this season.

Regarding this next draft class...well, I'll tell you from my point of view there is more then two who impress the hell out of me.

As of August 9th 2011 the NDS ranked the top quarterback prospects in the 2012 NFL Draft as such...

Andrew Luck - Stanford (Top 3 Pick)
Matt Barkley - USC (Top 5 Pick)
Landry Jones - Oklahoma (Top 10 Pick)

Now here is what makes this very interesting, all three are underclassmen. The top seniors in the draft are Nick Foles - Arizona, Ryan Lindley - San Diego State, Kirk Cousins - Michigan State, Ryan Tannehill - Texas A&M, Brandon Weeden - Oklahoma State, Chandler Harnish - Northern Illinois and B.J. Coleman - Chattanooga.

However, we also have to calculate not the rest of the seniors which there are many more (about twenty or so) but the underclassmen like Luck, Barkley and Jones who could possibly get in the mix if they have astounding seasons, such as Tyler Wilson - Arkansas, Robert Griffin - Baylor or Geno Smith - West Virginia, not to exclude any sophomores or other juniors who could likewise be a surprise.

This all points to an extremely deep quarterback class, better then I've seen in at least a few decades.


You mean the 83 draft that had 3 HOF QBs

BORDERLINE
08-10-2011, 02:26 PM
plain and simple trade tebow if you don't feel he's your guy. I hate qb controversies it really takes the focus out of the games and prep work. I am not a Tebow maniac but i would love for him to start, just to see what he has. We have seen Orton and most of us don't like what we seen. If Fox wants his guy then do it then. Like someone here said break the bank and draft Luck, whatever I don't care just go out there and win some games. Send Ayers packing send Moreno bring in your guys so you can be confident in who you put out on the field. And most importantly win. I don't want to hear no BS about, how this is not his QB, the lockout and all this other crap.

underrated29
08-10-2011, 02:28 PM
The only way we don't draft a QB #1 next draft is if Tebow gets in and really impresses.

I think it's 80+% that we draft a QB. 15% that Tebow shows the powers that be he can be the guy and 5% that Orton earns an extension.

Orton getting an extension is by far the worst option, thank God it's also probably the longest shot.




See, I see a team with 3 capable QBs. Capable, not all world but capable. I also see the same team with NO capable DTs (except for a 26 yr old first round bust and a 30 year old injured waiver claim) Neither are imo very good.


I see a team who tried to go DT in the draft and missed, and then missed again in FA- drafting a DT with the first round pick. The difference between a first round rookie next year and Orton/Quinn/Tebow is not going to be as large as the difference between our scrubs at DT and the first round rookie DT.


Besides that- Elway said he would never give up on tebow, and quite frankly the dude has had nothing to work with but did an admiral job last year. I put it at about a 30% chance.

Lancane
08-10-2011, 02:28 PM
You mean the 83 draft that had 3 HOF QBs

It's quite possible that it measures up to that exact class, I know a lot of people tried to do so with the 2006 NFL Draft, but I had long said that Cutler was the best of that class and the rest would be busts. I honestly can not say that about this class. We've seen several where one or two, maybe three turn out to have solid careers and quite frankly, there are a fair number in this draft who I feel have that franchise-capability, and I must stress, if drafted by the right team and coaching situation.

underrated29
08-10-2011, 02:34 PM
Here's a thing I want to emphasize guys:

Let's assume that Orton gets hurt and Tebow gets his chance to start in 2011.

Let's further assume that he does as well as he did last year. The problem is that he can only run those plays (spread formation running plays) that he's comfortable with. Just like last year. He's clearly not very good from under center yet. And he won't improve until he gets months of daily coaching on his fundamentals, -- if he ever manages it.

What happens then? Answer: Nothing.

Tebow is STILL not going to be a pocket passing QB. Fox is STILL not going to name Tebow as "his guy" unless he's convinced Tebow will become a successful pocket passing QB.

They STILL need to find another QB. They still draft a rookie and say to the disgruntled Tebowniacs that "Tebow will be given a chance to compete."

Only the fix will be in. Tebow will stay on the roster until his rookie contract expires. But, the rookie will get the starting nod unless he sucks and Tebow develops by 2013.

Even then Tebow would probably not get the job.

His problem is that he's Josh McDaniels' pick not Fox's. Fox doesn't have to defend that pick. He wants "his guy."

New coaches = new QBs, because every new coach doesn't want to be stuck with the former coach's draft choices. Notice that Fox is clearing house of all the McDaniels' players. (Most suck of course so that's good).

It's just more noticeable with Tebow. Remember that most QBs are drafted because they learned those drop-back passing skills through years of repetitions until it becomes second nature to them.

To Tebow it's like he's trying to learn Chinese. So Fox is simply going to want a more traditional QB. Either Tebow convinces him that he's become that guy -- or Fox gets his OWN guy.




While a nice post, it is completely filled with "ifs" that are stated as facts. So not really as set in stone as you say.

Lancane
08-10-2011, 02:47 PM
See, I see a team with 3 capable QBs. Capable, not all world but capable. I also see the same team with NO capable DTs (except for a 26 yr old first round bust and a 30 year old injured waiver claim) Neither are imo very good.


I see a team who tried to go DT in the draft and missed, and then missed again in FA- drafting a DT with the first round pick. The difference between a first round rookie next year and Orton/Quinn/Tebow is not going to be as large as the difference between our scrubs at DT and the first round rookie DT.


Besides that- Elway said he would never give up on tebow, and quite frankly the dude has had nothing to work with but did an admiral job last year. I put it at about a 30% chance.

Then why did the Broncos look at the top quarterback prospects from top to bottom before the draft? I'm sure that it was because they're sold on Tebow right? Come on UR, even you know better. And since then Tebow has shown no improvement, according to everyone who's seen him. He spent more time under center this off-season 'according to his own words' then ever before, he also worked out with the starters via Dawkins' camp more then Orton. Enough with the excuses IMHO, he's not the future, he can barely beat Quinn, and the possibility that he's second on the depth chart could be cause of his fan status more then ability.

I had hopes, but...he really is a project quarterback and people want to label him the next Vick or Young, who were both better passers at this point then Tim. I just don't see it, I also don't see Denver overlooking what is likely the best quarterback class since 83'. You have Luck who has been continually compared to Elway. Barkley who is better then Sanchez who was a top five pick and done rather well in the league. Jones who is almost identical to Jake Plummer before being drafted. Not to mention Landley who is probably the strongest armed quarterback of this class, the kid may have a better arm then Cutler and can likewise make all the throws. Cousins is probably the most proficient passer I've seen in recent years...

I just don't see what you see UR, I don't...this class is thick with franchise capable quarterbacks and you believe Denver will ignore that in order to draft a defensive tackle? I don't, but then again I could be wrong. But I can say this, if the Broncos begin to ignore offense except the run game and focus on defense, then we wont see another championship for a long ass time.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 02:56 PM
And therein lies the rub. That fact that we are even talking about drafting a(nother) franchise QB shows just how far this team has sunk.

We supposedly had our QBOTF in 2006. We drafted Tebow last year. Due to the lockout, it's clear he's not ready for prime time.

The team has a real dilemma on their hands. It's clear Orton isn't viewed as the long term answer. Through lack of training and playing time, Tebow won't/can't be evaluated enough to know if they need to dip into the QB pool in next years draft.

Do they draft another QB in 2012? Or will they take the chance Tebow will improve enough to become the QBOTF? Elway stated in the article to he won't give up on Tebow. Won't hold my breath on that.

To summarize this QB situation, it's possible we could invest three 1st round draft choices on a QB within six years (counting next year).

The more I think about this possibility, the angrier I become at our former HC.

You know RAV, I thought Elway said he wouldn't give up on Tebow in that article too. But, read it carefully. What he actually said was "I wouldn't give up on Tebow."

That says he's being optimistic and saying to people "don't write Tebow off just yet."

He's NOT guaranteeing that he, Elway, won't give up on Tebow if Tebow doesn't dramatically improve his pocket passing ability.

The problem is, CAN Tebow do that?

It's clear that the team simply won't KNOW whether Tebow can be a successful pocket passer in January. They're NOT going to simply wait and hope Tebow develops!

That's exactly what they did (in deference to the fans) for 2011 -- and it didn't work.

They tried to deal Orton with the idea that "Hey! We're a 4-12 team, how bad could he be?" Then seeing him in action Fox and Elway decided "Whoa! He's worse than we thought! We'd better keep Orton!"

Keeping Orton isn't idea for the reasons you state: he's not the future.

But, they can't just roll over and lose 12 or 13 games again this year or the veterans are all going to give up on this team. That's how teams become the Lions or Buffalo Bills.

Losing breeds losing. Do it a couple of years and you've created a losing culture where players are always waiting for the other shoe to fall. They can't have that.

Northman
08-10-2011, 03:09 PM
They don't owe Quinn anything either for that matter.

Yea, Quinn and Tebow are a wash at this point. :lol:

Northman
08-10-2011, 03:13 PM
They STILL need to find another QB. They still draft a rookie and say to the disgruntled Tebowniacs that "Tebow will be given a chance to compete."



Nah, they dont HAVE to draft another QB if Tebow does well enough. If he still has things to work on after this season they can simply sign another vet or draft a QB in the lower rounds. But they dont have to take a QB in the first. The funny thing about your arguement is you try and make it seem like you dont have a bias but you essentially already write Tebow off in every post of yours. There's no objectivity in your posting.

Traveler
08-10-2011, 03:14 PM
You know RAV, I thought Elway said he wouldn't give up on Tebow in that article too. But, read it carefully. What he actually said was "I wouldn't give up on Tebow."

That says he's being optimistic and saying to people "don't write Tebow off just yet."

He's NOT guaranteeing that he, Elway, won't give up on Tebow if Tebow doesn't dramatically improve his pocket passing ability.

The problem is, CAN Tebow do that?

It's clear that the team simply won't KNOW whether Tebow can be a successful pocket passer in January. They're NOT going to simply wait and hope Tebow develops!

That's exactly what they did (in deference to the fans) for 2011 -- and it didn't work.

They tried to deal Orton with the idea that "Hey! We're a 4-12 team, how bad could he be?" Then seeing him in action Fox and Elway decided "Whoa! He's worse than we thought! We'd better keep Orton!"

Keeping Orton isn't idea for the reasons you state: he's not the future.

But, they can't just roll over and lose 12 or 13 games again this year or the veterans are all going to give up on this team. That's how teams become the Lions or Buffalo Bills.

Losing breeds losing. Do it a couple of years and you've created a losing culture where players are always waiting for the other shoe to fall. They can't have that.

I was with you until this:


They tried to deal Orton with the idea that "Hey! We're a 4-12 team, how bad could he be?" Then seeing him in action Fox and Elway decided "Whoa! He's worse than we thought! We'd better keep Orton!"


You are making a huge assumption the above is what Fox and Elway did. It's been written several times that Orton nixed the trde because he wanted a new contract from Miami that would pay him six million per season.

Orton is here and starting because he bascially nixed the trade, not because Fox saw that Tebow wasn't ready.

underrated29
08-10-2011, 03:17 PM
Then why did the Broncos look at the top quarterback prospects from top to bottom before the draft? I'm sure that it was because they're sold on Tebow right? Come on UR, even you know better. And since then Tebow has shown no improvement, according to everyone who's seen him. He spent more time under center this off-season 'according to his own words' then ever before, he also worked out with the starters via Dawkins' camp more then Orton. Enough with the excuses IMHO, he's not the future, he can barely beat Quinn, and the possibility that he's second on the depth chart could be cause of his fan status more then ability.

I had hopes, but...he really is a project quarterback and people want to label him the next Vick or Young, who were both better passers at this point then Tim. I just don't see it, I also don't see Denver overlooking what is likely the best quarterback class since 83'. You have Luck who has been continually compared to Elway. Barkley who is better then Sanchez who was a top five pick and done rather well in the league. Jones who is almost identical to Jake Plummer before being drafted. Not to mention Landley who is probably the strongest armed quarterback of this class, the kid may have a better arm then Cutler and can likewise make all the throws. Cousins is probably the most proficient passer I've seen in recent years...

I just don't see what you see UR, I don't...this class is thick with franchise capable quarterbacks and you believe Denver will ignore that in order to draft a defensive tackle? I don't, but then again I could be wrong. But I can say this, if the Broncos begin to ignore offense except the run game and focus on defense, then we wont see another championship for a long ass time.



Not denying the skills of the next class.

Elway and Co said they werent sure if they had the franchise QB on the roster and so they did their homework on newton and such just to see if they were or would be better than who they currently have. They saw no one who could outperfom and went for miller.

In this next class there certainly will/could be guys that are better. But a) I dont see us being a top 10 pick. I think we end up somewhere around 8 or 9 wins. (ill let ya know after I see how we do in pre season) So that puts the surefire guys out of range. Next, (all this can change as you know) will be the guys who are more polished but even then most rookies in the nfl struggle- they just do. Even Sam bradford who did great for a rook had only like 9 more tds and a ton more ints than tebow. So these next guys might be better, but is the difference between them and our QBs (orton/tebow/quinn) more significant then a DL player vs our current DL....


The draft is deep at QB and someone is likely to fall into the second round



sorry, at work got sidetracked, came back to this post and train of thought is gone and I dont really feel like re reading the above posts to pick up where i left off...

haha- sorry.:elefant:

Ravage!!!
08-10-2011, 03:42 PM
You are making a huge assumption the above is what Fox and Elway did. It's been written several times that Orton nixed the trde because he wanted a new contract from Miami that would pay him six million per season.

Orton is here and starting because he bascially nixed the trade, not because Fox saw that Tebow wasn't ready.

Not exactly true. The Broncos could have traded him if they TRULY wanted to.

As far as the contract goes, Orton didn't accept less money than he was guaranteed already. True.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 03:45 PM
Nah, they dont HAVE to draft another QB if Tebow does well enough. If he still has things to work on after this season they can simply sign another vet or draft a QB in the lower rounds. But they dont have to take a QB in the first. The funny thing about your arguement is you try and make it seem like you dont have a bias but you essentially already write Tebow off in every post of yours. There's no objectivity in your posting.

I'm arguing what EFX will do, not what I would do. What youi or I think about Tebow flat doesn't matter. My "bias" is utterly irrelevant to whether they make him starter or get rid of him.

If Tebow "does well enough" by the fan's criteria is flat not going to matter because he's not going to "do well enough" by FOX's standards!

You're substituting YOUR judgment that if he wins some games "that's good enough."

Well, it isn't! If Tebow is forced to play they will be forced to use only that part of the playbook he can execute effectively -- HIS plays.

But, Fox doesn't WANT a guy who can't execute the offense HE wants to run -- with a traditional drop back passing QB. Period. That's not acceptable to Fox long term.

If he was willing to go with Tebow and let him "develop" then he'd have gotten rid of Orton and they'd be going with Tebow -- warts and all just as they did the last 3 games of last games.

That's probably what a majority of the fans want -- put Tebow in and if he can't be a drop-back pocket passer, then let him run the spread formation he's comfortable with and see what happens. Give him a chance. Commit to Tebow now and give him time to develop.

Well, that's NOT going to happen. They're going to decide in January whether to get a QB or not.

If they sign a veteran who's any good they will have to guarantee him a chance to be the starter. If he's a better drop-back passer (like Orton) then Tebow is out and the Veteran is in.

If they bring in a guy just to fill in for a year, they will have to TRADE for him, because a FA won't agree to that -- unless he's a BACKUP NOW.

In the NFL a team either HAS it's franchise QB or they go and get one. ASAP. They're NOT going to wait another year just in "hopes" that Tebow will become a pocket-passer. So, they're going to draft a rookie QB if one is available.

It would be nice for the Broncos if they knew in January if Tebow will ever develop into the QB they want him to be.

But, they won't so they have to make a move come April NOT KNOWING what they have in Tebow.

And they can't just wait another year to find out.

You may not like it, but unless Orton gets hurt and Tebow leads this team to the playoffs or something, they ARE going to go out and get another QB next off-season. Probably by drafting one.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 03:53 PM
Not exactly true. The Broncos could have traded him if they TRULY wanted to.

As far as the contract goes, Orton didn't accept less money than he was guaranteed already. True.

Of course Denver could have traded Orton if they really wanted to. They're not keeping him because they couldn't deal him. They're keeping him because (in Elway's words yesterday) "Tebow is very raw."

Orton's objections to the contract were all about the fact that Miami didn't want to pay him what he was earning here, so he was facing a pay cut.

Well, all Denver had to do was agree to pick up the difference between what Miami would pay Orton and his $8.8 million deal here. And if Miami wouldn't give a 2nd rounder, then take a 3rd.

Even if the Broncos released him, Orton WOULD have to sign a contract extension wherever he goes because his contract is expiring in January. NOBODY is going to sign him without agreeing to an extension.

So, the contract was never a real problem.

It was TEBOW that was the problem. About the time they realized that Tebow hadn't improved in the off-season, they pulled Orton off the trade table.

And they did this DESPITE the fact that they will lose him in January WITHOUT any compensation -- because his contract will expire. (Baring a decision to make Orton the long-term franchise QB they won't re-sign him).

Cugel
08-10-2011, 03:57 PM
The Broncos had two choices with Orton since he refused to be Tebow's backup in 2011.

1. Trade Orton to Miami. Get a 3rd round pick and save $4-$5 million of Orton's $8.8 million salary.

2. Keep Orton and start him knowing that he's gone via FA in 2012 and they won't get anything for him.

They decided to keep him, lose the draft pick and $4-5 million. That really says everything you need to know about what they think about Tebow.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:04 PM
Not denying the skills of the next class.

Elway and Co said they werent sure if they had the franchise QB on the roster and so they did their homework on newton and such just to see if they were or would be better than who they currently have. They saw no one who could outperfom and went for miller.

In this next class there certainly will/could be guys that are better. But a) I dont see us being a top 10 pick. I think we end up somewhere around 8 or 9 wins. (ill let ya know after I see how we do in pre season) So that puts the surefire guys out of range. Next, (all this can change as you know) will be the guys who are more polished but even then most rookies in the nfl struggle- they just do. Even Sam bradford who did great for a rook had only like 9 more tds and a ton more ints than tebow. So these next guys might be better, but is the difference between them and our QBs (orton/tebow/quinn) more significant then a DL player vs our current DL...

Elway said before they hired Fox that they wanted a coach who would "work with Tim." Fox quickly said he would.

They did that to appease the Tebowniacs. They wanted to see if Tebow would improve with an off-season of development. And avoid an angry fan rebellion at Elway & Fox right at the start.

Well, he hasn't improved. Will he improve sufficiently next off-season with the coaches working with him all winter?

Who knows? :coffee:

But, the Broncos can't just WAIT another year to find out!

What should they do? HOPE TEbow develops in 2012, see that he doesn't and draft a QB in 2013?

While that might please the Tebowniacs it's idiotic.

vandammage13
08-10-2011, 04:07 PM
Not exactly true. The Broncos could have traded him if they TRULY wanted to.

As far as the contract goes, Orton didn't accept less money than he was guaranteed already. True.

I disagree...I think the Broncos totally overestimated Orton's market value...

I think the correct way to say it would be that if another team TRULY wanted Orton he would have been traded....It says something that teams were more willing to go with QBs such as TJax/Whitehurst, Grossman/Beck, Henne, McNabb, etc...

Orton was on the trading block...If another team was sold on him they would have traded for him. They weren't, so we're stuck with him.

If most of us here on this board can see Orton's deficiencies, I'm 100% sure GMs across the league are aware of them...They certainly did their homework on him and were able to see he is nothing more than a top tier backup.

Northman
08-10-2011, 04:10 PM
I'm arguing what EFX will do, not what I would do. What youi or I think about Tebow flat doesn't matter. My "bias" is utterly irrelevant to whether they make him starter or get rid of him.

Well, it is relevant to your posting which was what i was pointing too. You come across like your trying to look at the situation objectively but your really arent.


If Tebow "does well enough" by the fan's criteria is flat not going to matter because he's not going to "do well enough" by FOX's standards!

How do you know he's not going to do well by Fox's standards? Where's this crystal ball your looking into?


You're substituting YOUR judgment that if he wins some games "that's good enough."

Also untrue, im only saying that if Tebow does well this year but needs work that isnt an automatic that they will draft a QB in the first round. They do have other options if they want to continue to develope Tebow.


Well, it isn't! If Tebow is forced to play they will be forced to use only that part of the playbook he can execute effectively -- HIS plays.

Again, this is just your speculation. While i would agree that Tim's playbook would be limited we dont know where he will be come down the line. For all we know he might actually improve before taking any regular season snaps.


But, Fox doesn't WANT a guy who can't execute the offense HE wants to run -- with a traditional drop back passing QB. Period. That's not acceptable to Fox long term.

Fox also isnt a moron who thinks 3 games and one week worth of practice is enough time to determine if a QB is a failure in the NFL or not.


If he was willing to go with Tebow and let him "develop" then he'd have gotten rid of Orton and they'd be going with Tebow -- warts and all just as they did the last 3 games of last games.

While that is the way I would of gone the arguement has been made that Fox wants to win now and thinks that he can. If your trying to win now you dont go with Tebow no matter how average your vet is.


That's probably what a majority of the fans want -- put Tebow in and if he can't be a drop-back pocket passer, then let him run the spread formation he's comfortable with and see what happens. Give him a chance. Commit to Tebow now and give him time to develop.

I want him to start because i want to see if he progresses throughout the season. Chances are we are only going to win about 5-6 games at best as it is due to the circumstances of the team right now. So i would of used this opportunity to evaluate Tebow to see if he has what it takes to be a FQB. If not, move on.


Well, that's NOT going to happen. They're going to decide in January whether to get a QB or not.

As well as every other position they want to look at. Thats a given.


In the NFL a team either HAS it's franchise QB or they go and get one. ASAP. They're NOT going to wait another year just in "hopes" that Tebow will become a pocket-passer. So, they're going to draft a rookie QB if one is available.

In most cases a young QB doesnt even flourish until his third year. So you cant be serious in thinking that after 3 games they already know he isnt going to work out. Thats very flawed thinking on your part.


It would be nice for the Broncos if they knew in January if Tebow will ever develop into the QB they want him to be.

Agreed.


But, they won't so they have to make a move come April NOT KNOWING what they have in Tebow.

Again, crystal ball?


And they can't just wait another year to find out.

They can do whatever they want. They are in charge. :lol:


You may not like it, but unless Orton gets hurt and Tebow leads this team to the playoffs or something, they ARE going to go out and get another QB next off-season. Probably by drafting one.

Your crystal ball is getting a serious workout today mate.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 04:12 PM
Cugel I forgot how close you and EFX....cause apparently you know what they are thinkg and know what they plan to do. They come over for dinner much? Did you babysit for Elway or something? Buy a few cars from him?

You dont know either of these guys, you dont know how they are going to act. Nobody saw us NOT drafting a DT. They do not go with what people think, analyst or fan. So stop putting words in their mouths like you know what they are going to be saying. You stated it yourself " I am arguing what EFX will do."

Northman
08-10-2011, 04:12 PM
What should they do? HOPE TEbow develops in 2012, see that he doesn't and draft a QB in 2013?




Again, young QB's dont even get polished until their third year. Going by YOUR logic had you been in charge of the Colts when they drafted Manning and cut him loose after 3 games you would look like a mighty fool. :lol:

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:13 PM
I disagree...I think the Broncos totally overestimated Orton's market value...

I think the correct way to say it would be that if another team TRULY wanted Orton he would have been traded....It says something that teams were more willing to go with QBs such as TJax/Whitehurst, Grossman/Beck, Henne, McNabb, etc...

Orton was on the trading block...If another team was sold on him they would have traded for him. They weren't, so we're stuck with him.

Miami offered a 3rd rounder for him, which was the market value for Orton. NOT a 2nd that Denver wanted.

Well, if they're going to lose him anyway at season's end, why not take the 3rd?

As for his contract all they have to do is pay the difference between what Miami will pay and what he's getting here.

Savings to Broncos? 3rd round pick and $4-5 million.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:18 PM
Again, young QB's dont even get polished until their third year. Going by YOUR logic had you been in charge of the Colts when they drafted Manning and cut him loose after 3 games you would look like a mighty fool. :lol:

You're forgetting that FOX and ELWAY didn't draft Tebow. The guy who did was fired! So, they don't have to pretend he's any better than he is. They can cut him without regret if he doesn't work out. McDaniels couldn't do that without admitting he majorly screwed up in drafting Tebow in the first place.

Well, in firing McDaniels the Broncos acknowledge that they screwed up in hiring him, so no face is lost by getting rid of his players!

And Peyton Manning was a vastly superior prospect from day 1 than Tebow will ever be.

The two situations couldn't POSSIBLY be more different! Manning the #1 overall pick and the most highly touted rookie since Elway -- versus Tebow, whom most observers didn't think deserved to be drafted in the first round at all. :coffee:

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 04:20 PM
You're forgetting that FOX and ELWAY didn't draft Tebow. The guy who did was fired! So, they don't have to pretend he's any better than he is. They can cut him without regret if he doesn't work out. McDaniels couldn't do that without admitting he majorly screwed up in drafting Tebow in the first place.

Well, in firing McDaniels the Broncos acknowledge that they screwed up in hiring him, so no face is lost by getting rid of his players!

And Peyton Manning was a vastly superior prospect from day 1 than Tebow will ever be.

The two situations couldn't POSSIBLY be more different! Manning the #1 overall pick and the most highly touted rookie since Elway -- versus Tebow, whom most observers didn't think deserved to be drafted in the first round at all. :coffee:


They also did not trade for Orton nor did they give him the extension. :rolleyes:

vandammage13
08-10-2011, 04:22 PM
Miami offered a 3rd rounder for him, which was the market value for Orton. NOT a 2nd that Denver wanted.

Well, if they're going to lose him anyway at season's end, why not take the 3rd?

As for his contract all they have to do is pay the difference between what Miami will pay and what he's getting here.

Savings to Broncos? 3rd round pick and $4-5 million.

Except apparently Miami wasn't sold on Orton enough to pony up and give him the multi-year deal he was seeking.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:24 PM
Cugel I forgot how close you and EFX....cause apparently you know what they are thinkg and know what they plan to do. They come over for dinner much? Did you babysit for Elway or something? Buy a few cars from him?

You dont know either of these guys, you dont know how they are going to act. Nobody saw us NOT drafting a DT. They do not go with what people think, analyst or fan. So stop putting words in their mouths like you know what they are going to be saying. You stated it yourself " I am arguing what EFX will do."

I don't have to talk to EFX because every NFL team does the same thing!

New coaches = new QBs. That's NFL history, not my idea.

Personally, if it were up to me I'd have traded Orton for a 3rd round pick to Miami because he'll never win a SB, taken the $4-5 million and started Tebow, see what he could do with the spread offense this season, and then trade his ass in January for whatever we can get, (maybe a 4th?) if he doesn't work out and then draft Luck or Barkley.

But, they are obviously not going to do that. They're keeping Orton and benching Tebow.

And Tebow obviously is NOT going to be any better a pocket-passer in January than he is now. If he's ever going to get better it's going to take intensive 1 on 1 coaching during the entire next off-season.

All the Tebowniac supporters keep saying "it takes 3 years." Well a QB is supposed to show some improvement in year 2 and Tebow hasn't. If anything he's regressed from the training camp reports.

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't have to talk to EFX because every NFL team does the same thing!

New coaches = new QBs. That's NFL history, not my idea.

Personally, if it were up to me I'd have traded Orton for a 3rd round pick to Miami because he'll never win a SB, taken the $4-5 million and started Tebow, see what he could do with the spread offense this season, and then trade his ass in January for whatever we can get, (maybe a 4th?) if he doesn't work out and then draft Luck or Barkley.

But, they are obviously not going to do that. They're keeping Orton and benching Tebow.

And Tebow obviously is NOT going to be any better a pocket-passer in January than he is now. If he's ever going to get better it's going to take intensive 1 on 1 coaching during the entire next off-season.

All the Tebowniac supporters keep saying "it takes 3 years." Well a QB is supposed to show some improvement in year 2 and Tebow hasn't. If anything he's regressed from the training camp reports.


I have not see him play a game in his 2nd year, has anyone else? He is going going to be better in Jan? Do you have a time machine? I would love to borrow it!:rolleyes:

Northman
08-10-2011, 04:28 PM
You're forgetting that FOX and ELWAY didn't draft Tebow. The guy who did was fired! So, they don't have to pretend he's any better than he is. They can cut him without regret if he doesn't work out.

Key word. IF


McDaniels couldn't do that without admitting he majorly screwed up in drafting Tebow in the first place.

You mean like he did with Phonz? He didnt hesitate there.


Well, in firing McDaniels the Broncos acknowledge that they screwed up in hiring him, so no face is lost by getting rid of his players!

Yes and no. While McD was in over his head and a terrible head coach some of the players he selected still need some time to see if they can contribute to this team.


And Peyton Manning was a vastly superior prospect from day 1 than Tebow will ever be.

Yes, Manning was a great prospect. But even with that no HC has ever cut a 1st QB after 3 regular game starts. EVER. The Jay Culters, the Aaron Rodgers all had at least 3 years to learn and progress before finding out they were the guys.


The two situations couldn't POSSIBLY be more different! Manning the #1 overall pick and the most highly touted rookie since Elway -- versus Tebow, whom most observers didn't think deserved to be drafted in the first round at all. :coffee:

Agreed. I think Tebow was taken too high but at the end of the day he was drafted in the first round. He is a first round draftee by the Denver Broncos. it doesnt matter what you or i think though in terms of when he was drafted. It doesnt change the fact that you dont cut a 1st round QB loose after 3 games. That just well.....moronic.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:31 PM
Except apparently Miami wasn't sold on Orton enough to pony up and give him the multi-year deal he was seeking.

Once again, it doesn't matter. Denver could have thrown in the difference between Orton's salary and what Miami was willing to offer. They'd still save $4-5 million as I've repeatedly pointed out.

As for a multi-year deal, Miami didn't want to GUARANTEE multiple years. Again, so what? Orton had ZERO leverage!

Elway could have told him "if you don't agree to terms with Miami after we agree to pay a portion of your salary, we're simply going to take you off the trading block and then release your ass in the last cut to the 53 man roster. At that point nobody will pick you up and you'll be sitting there this season waiting for the phone to ring.

Maybe somebody will call, but they damn sure won't be offering you $8.8 million! So, good luck with that Kyle!"

If they wanted him gone as badly as the fans, he'd be gone. :coffee:

NightTerror218
08-10-2011, 04:34 PM
Once again, it doesn't matter. Denver could have thrown in the difference between Orton's salary and what Miami was willing to offer. They'd still save $4-5 million as I've repeatedly pointed out.

As for a multi-year deal, Miami didn't want to GUARANTEE multiple years. Again, so what? Orton had ZERO leverage!

Elway could have told him "if you don't agree to terms with Miami after we agree to pay a portion of your salary, we're simply going to take you off the trading block and then release your ass in the last cut to the 53 man roster. At that point nobody will pick you up and you'll be sitting there this season waiting for the phone to ring.

Maybe somebody will call, but they damn sure won't be offering you $8.8 million! So, good luck with that Kyle!"

If they wanted him gone as badly as the fans, he'd be gone. :coffee:

IMO he is a great backup...why not keep him for last year if you can not get what you want for him

vandammage13
08-10-2011, 04:35 PM
Once again, it doesn't matter. Denver could have thrown in the difference between Orton's salary and what Miami was willing to offer. They'd still save $4-5 million as I've repeatedly pointed out.

As for a multi-year deal, Miami didn't want to GUARANTEE multiple years. Again, so what? Orton had ZERO leverage!

Elway could have told him "if you don't agree to terms with Miami after we agree to pay a portion of your salary, we're simply going to take you off the trading block and then release your ass in the last cut to the 53 man roster. At that point nobody will pick you up and you'll be sitting there this season waiting for the phone to ring.

Maybe somebody will call, but they damn sure won't be offering you $8.8 million! So, good luck with that Kyle!"

If they wanted him gone as badly as the fans, he'd be gone. :coffee:

Orton had no leverage toward Miami, but he did against Denver. He knew that if he didn't get what he wanted from Miami that he could stay with Denver and most likely keep the starting gig, and then take his chances as a FA next year. Since he was the one who kept the deal from getting done, yeah I'd say he had some leverage there.

Why would Orton take a paycut when he knows he will probably be more valuable as a FA because a team won't have to invest a draft pick in him in addition to the salary.

weazel
08-10-2011, 04:43 PM
plain and simple trade tebow if you don't feel he's your guy. I hate qb controversies it really takes the focus out of the games and prep work. I am not a Tebow maniac but i would love for him to start, just to see what he has. We have seen Orton and most of us don't like what we seen. If Fox wants his guy then do it then. Like someone here said break the bank and draft Luck, whatever I don't care just go out there and win some games. Send Ayers packing send Moreno bring in your guys so you can be confident in who you put out on the field. And most importantly win. I don't want to hear no BS about, how this is not his QB, the lockout and all this other crap.

There simply wouldn't be any takers.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:46 PM
Key word. IF

Well, Captain Obvious! IF Tebow suddenly starts dropping back, reading the defense and throwing like Drew Brees they'll keep him no? It just isn't going to happen this year.


You mean like he did with Phonz? He didnt hesitate there.

2nd round pick. True he threw away a 1st to get him. But, a 1st round QB is a very different matter than a 2nd round CB.


Yes and no. While McD was in over his head and a terrible head coach some of the players he selected still need some time to see if they can contribute to this team.

Not my decision. Not yours either. :coffee:


Yes, Manning was a great prospect. But even with that no HC has ever cut a 1st QB after 3 regular game starts. EVER. The Jay Culters, the Aaron Rodgers all had at least 3 years to learn and progress before finding out they were the guys.

I haven't researched NFL history, but I'm betting this is wrong. Lots of 1st rounders never become NFL starters to begin with because they crap out.

In any case, if Tebow doesn't convince Fox that he can take a 3 step drop, throw a timing pass to the WR and hit him consistently on the hands he's not EVER going to start for the Denver Broncos.

They're not going to start him because "hey! He's a former 1st rounder!" :coffee:


Agreed. I think Tebow was taken too high but at the end of the day he was drafted in the first round. He is a first round draftee by the Denver Broncos. it doesnt matter what you or i think though in terms of when he was drafted. It doesnt change the fact that you dont cut a 1st round QB loose after 3 games. That just well.....moronic.

You do if you don't think he can do the job. Doesn't matter where the guy was drafted.

They will probably keep Tebow on the roster until his rookie contract expires in 2 years.

I was saying that I would start Tebow this season, and then cut him if he didn't work out -- not that EFX will. I'd give him enough rope to hang himself and see what he can do this year. EFX is NOT taking that approach.

Cugel
08-10-2011, 04:55 PM
Orton had no leverage toward Miami, but he did against Denver. He knew that if he didn't get what he wanted from Miami that he could stay with Denver and most likely keep the starting gig, and then take his chances as a FA next year. Since he was the one who kept the deal from getting done, yeah I'd say he had some leverage there.

Why would Orton take a paycut when he knows he will probably be more valuable as a FA because a team won't have to invest a draft pick in him in addition to the salary.

You missed ALL of my points. :sigh:

1. Orton wouldn't have to take a pay-cut. Denver could guarantee whatever salary Miami refused to pay and STILL save $4-5 million.

2. Orton had ZERO leverage with Denver IF Fox was willing to start Tebow! In that case, they HAD to trade or cut Orton because Orton refused to be Tebow's backup this season.

He made that clear a while ago. So, if Orton screws up a deal, they get angry and decide to screw Orton into the ground -- which they can do by holding him until the last cuts. At that point every team has their QBs set and he sits out the season -- without pay (excepting his $1.5 million roster bonus he already got).

He might get a phone call, if some starting QB gets hurt, but it's unlikely to be a better situation than Miami offered! They have garbage for QBs now. Orton would win that starting job hands down. And if he did well, he could either get an extension or a bigger contract somewhere else.

He could only "keep his starting gig" if Fox was so dissatisfied with Tebow that he was unwilling to start him in 2011.

Otherwise Denver tells Orton "you'll take it and like it or else you'll be sorry!"

LawDog
08-10-2011, 05:03 PM
I'd like to be a Tebow guy, I really like the kid, but the problem as I see it is that last year needs to be written off as if T2 was not even in the league. Several months ago it was reported that Elway was surprised at how little the backups got to work with the first team last year under McDaniels. If that was truly the case, then Tebow is a year behind when the lack of reps last year is combined with the lockout of this year. In other words, he's still a rookie. A lot of people are mentioning how Quinn is performing so well in this camp, but he should be given that this is going to be his fifth year in the league. If Quinn was really all that, he should be number 2 on the DC instead of still lagging behind a defacto rookie.

Sure Orton is the starter, he is clearly the best QB on the team right now. However, that doesn't cure Orton's flaws -- in fact at this point in his career he isn't going to change his stripes, he is what he is -- and Orton will not be the starting Broncos QB next season in my opinion. Hopefully, a vastly improved defense will win us the field position game and keep the score reasonably close as to give us a decent amount of wins.

Getting back to Tebow, if we treat this season as his rookie season due to the lack of development from last year and the lockout, we will have a better idea of what he can be as an NFL quarterback toward the end of the season. If he shows improvement (and as hard as he works I'd be surprised if he didn't) under coach Fox, then he has a legitimate shot at being our starter next year, if not, we look to the draft or FA for our "next guy."

In the meantime, I'm done with this whole thing.

Go Broncos!

Orton, do what you do - manage the game and try not to crap on yourself.

shank
08-10-2011, 05:38 PM
I'd like to be a Tebow guy, I really like the kid, but the problem as I see it is that last year needs to be written off as if T2 was not even in the league. Several months ago it was reported that Elway was surprised at how little the backups got to work with the first team last year under McDaniels. If that was truly the case, then Tebow is a year behind when the lack of reps last year is combined with the lockout of this year. In other words, he's still a rookie. A lot of people are mentioning how Quinn is performing so well in this camp, but he should be given that this is going to be his fifth year in the league. If Quinn was really all that, he should be number 2 on the DC instead of still lagging behind a defacto rookie.

Sure Orton is the starter, he is clearly the best QB on the team right now. However, that doesn't cure Orton's flaws -- in fact at this point in his career he isn't going to change his stripes, he is what he is -- and Orton will not be the starting Broncos QB next season in my opinion. Hopefully, a vastly improved defense will win us the field position game and keep the score reasonably close as to give us a decent amount of wins.

Getting back to Tebow, if we treat this season as his rookie season due to the lack of development from last year and the lockout, we will have a better idea of what he can be as an NFL quarterback toward the end of the season. If he shows improvement (and as hard as he works I'd be surprised if he didn't) under coach Fox, then he has a legitimate shot at being our starter next year, if not, we look to the draft or FA for our "next guy."

In the meantime, I'm done with this whole thing.

Go Broncos!

Orton, do what you do - manage the game and try not to crap on yourself.

thread was a total waste of time until this post.

i need to start making up facts; it seems like it would be a very good way to convince myself that i'm a master-debater. :elefant:

LordTrychon
08-10-2011, 05:46 PM
While I do think that Tebow will eventually need to have his own set of verbs describing him... I'm not sure yet what 'Timing' something means... let aalone how it could possibly hold him back.

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/shared/characters/kids/timmy.jpg

TIMING!

Lancane
08-10-2011, 05:57 PM
There simply wouldn't be any takers.

And that is the crux of it Weazel...

When the NFL re-opened for business I feel Tebow had legit value, not only in the eyes of the organization and teammates but within the league. When Orton was said to be on the trading block and was being shopped, the front office should have denied it, Orton's value was set...Tebow's value raised. As the trade situation continued the front office seemed lost in how to handle the situation, supposedly Tebow was going to start, but until Orton was traded he was to remain the starter? (That should have been a hint at how lax the front office was in dealing with such a delicate situation). Tebow's value came into question, with Orton remaining the starter come camp, his value really took a hit as people saw that he hadn't progressed well, hadn't really improved while Orton was schooling him basically. Orton's value remained, but the front office because of their inexperienced handling allowed Tebow to go from worth something to down right valueless.

If they handled the situation correctly, which should have been giving Orton an extension (with less guaranteed money) they could have traded him. Or at least traded Tebow, then acquired more after the season should Orton do well. Right now Denver played their poker hand and it's nothing but low cards and a shit hand as well. Orton will be gone, but there is no return value, Quinn will be gone and there is no return value and Tebow's value is so low that we'd be lucky to get a 5th round pick at this time.

And the fact that Tebow hasn't improved, that is likewise killing his value with the fans, the organization and his teammates. Elway can say whatever he likes, but that doesn't mean that Tebow is the future, he may not want to quit on Tebow, but the kid may force him to since he isn't showing signs of being anything more then a 'one-trick-pony' and possible career back-up.

Slick
08-10-2011, 06:06 PM
Its a long season. We have a rookie starting at RT. The better LDE's in the game are going to beat him in obvious passing situations. Kyle will strain his mangina at some point.

Efx will get a chance to evaluate the other two qbs in regular season play.

Everything I said is an undisputable fact.

/forums

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Lancane
08-10-2011, 06:35 PM
Yes and no. While McD was in over his head and a terrible head coach some of the players he selected still need some time to see if they can contribute to this team.

He was a terrible head coach and even worse in evaluating talent, I would not say that he's a horrid offensive coach, that may be the only thing he's good at.

Let's look at this carefully North, because I don't see what you do...he drafts Moreno, a tailback that proved worthy behind a zone blocking offensive line and yet, McDaniels knew that he was switching to the power blocking scheme. He could have literally traded down for more picks or up for the likes of Sanchez, either would have been a better choice. Right now word is McGahee is proving to be the better tailback, I would say that unless he breaks out this year, then he's a wash. Ayers a typical 4-3 defensive end better suited for the strong-side was drafted to be a 3-4 rush end? Especially when you look at the talent available around him that we could have taken. He may have a chance to succeed now that we're returning to the 4-3.

But what of those taken after him? Such as Smith? Do I really need to say more? Even being a dumb trade drafting someone like Maualuga or Brace would have proven worth the pick. What about Darcel McBath, Richard Quinn, David Bruton, Seth Olsen, Kenny McKinnley, Tom Brandstater or Blake Schlueter? McKinnley commits suicide, Brandstater is replaced by Tebow a year later, Schlueter and Olsen are both adios. Bruton and McBath are so good that Denver drafted two of the top safeties this past draft, they're not even in competition for a starting position. And Quinn, his value is as a run-blocker only...it's fair to say that unless Moreno suddenly outplays McGahee and Ayers proves more then a decent strong-side defensive end that the draft is not only bad but horrid. We should have had at least one solid starter and one semi starter and both sort of rest on Moreno and Ayers.

What about his last draft? Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, Decker, Cox, Olsen, Thompson and Kirlew? Thomas is proving to be a huge bust, he's not even third string, he's not even close to being a backup - not to mention that he's injury prone like a glass leg. Beadles and Walton are both starters, so that could be the best draft moves he's made thus far, Decker could prove to be the steal of McDaniels time here. Cox is all but gone and will likely be in prison sooner rather then later. Thompson is showing signs of improvement but is still third-string, Olsen has barely got a shot to make final roster, Kerlew is long gone. And Tebow...well, he barely beat out Quinn for the second spot, he's barely improved according to reports and was drafted in the first though he's a project quarterback. I usually don't agree with Kiper, but the fact that we took him over McCoy who made absolute sense in McDaniels system is mind boggling. If not for Walton and Beadles McDaniels could prove to be the worse drafter in recent memory.

Northman
08-10-2011, 09:28 PM
I haven't researched NFL history, but I'm betting this is wrong. Lots of 1st rounders never become NFL starters to begin with because they crap out.

You havent researched? Shocker there. Anyhow i have and i am correct. While 1st round QB's have failed in the NFL they have all been given at least a year to see if they are going to work out or not.


In any case, if Tebow doesn't convince Fox that he can take a 3 step drop, throw a timing pass to the WR and hit him consistently on the hands he's not EVER going to start for the Denver Broncos.

No shit sherlock. :lol:

Northman
08-10-2011, 09:32 PM
Let's look at this carefully North, because I don't see what you do...

Woooooah big dog. Your making more out of my comment than you should have. While there are certainly a lot of question marks with some of his picks they still havent had a long enough time to see if they are worth the salt. Certainly his second year was stronger than his first but im still willing to see what guys like Moreno and Ayers can do although im not holding my breath.

Lancane
08-10-2011, 09:43 PM
Woooooah big dog. Your making more out of my comment than you should have. While there are certainly a lot of question marks with some of his picks they still havent had a long enough time to see if they are worth the salt. Certainly his second year was stronger than his first but im still willing to see what guys like Moreno and Ayers can do although im not holding my breath.

What? I was hoping you would explain what you see that I didn't? I wasn't trying to start something bro...just asking! Sheesh, we're not on edge or anything!

:lol:

Northman
08-10-2011, 09:55 PM
What? I was hoping you would explain what you see that I didn't? I wasn't trying to start something bro...just asking! Sheesh, we're not on edge or anything!

:lol:

Well, i have to be careful on this board. I make a joke about horses taking offense to the word Broncos and get labeled a racist on here. :lol:

underrated29
08-10-2011, 10:04 PM
Well, i have to be careful on this board. I make a joke about horses taking offense to the word Broncos and get labeled a racist on here. :lol:



Really you got crap for that but nothing when you called the jews on the board ashes in a cigarette Tray? Wow some people here are messed.







Btw everyone northmen is racist against horses because he desires to be a werewolf but he never said anything about jews. That was me giving him a hard time.

Lancane
08-10-2011, 10:13 PM
Well, i have to be careful on this board. I make a joke about horses taking offense to the word Broncos and get labeled a racist on here. :lol:

I see... I just figured out long ago that someone will always be pissed or offended by me on any given day and decided to hell with it and not give a damn. We're not here to make others happy and if people don't like us for who we are, respect our opinions, and understand us enough to know not to be offended, then to hell with them...that's just my opinion though!

:lol:

TXBRONC
08-10-2011, 11:56 PM
Miami offered a 3rd rounder for him, which was the market value for Orton. NOT a 2nd that Denver wanted.

Well, if they're going to lose him anyway at season's end, why not take the 3rd?

As for his contract all they have to do is pay the difference between what Miami will pay and what he's getting here.

Savings to Broncos? 3rd round pick and $4-5 million.

It seems to me they didn't want to settle for a 3rd round pick. Also Orton wanted a long term contract and the Dolphins didn't want to give him that kind of money. That's part of reason they were unable to move him.

Lonestar
08-11-2011, 02:32 AM
If the CBA year starts and ends in August. When Do FA hit the market place?

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MOtorboat
08-11-2011, 07:18 AM
If the CBA year starts and ends in August. When Do FA hit the market place?

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That was just this year.

Tned
08-11-2011, 07:34 AM
Of course Denver could have traded Orton if they really wanted to. They're not keeping him because they couldn't deal him. They're keeping him because (in Elway's words yesterday) "Tebow is very raw."

Orton's objections to the contract were all about the fact that Miami didn't want to pay him what he was earning here, so he was facing a pay cut.

Well, all Denver had to do was agree to pick up the difference between what Miami would pay Orton and his $8.8 million deal here. And if Miami wouldn't give a 2nd rounder, then take a 3rd.

Even if the Broncos released him, Orton WOULD have to sign a contract extension wherever he goes because his contract is expiring in January. NOBODY is going to sign him without agreeing to an extension.

So, the contract was never a real problem.

It was TEBOW that was the problem. About the time they realized that Tebow hadn't improved in the off-season, they pulled Orton off the trade table.

And they did this DESPITE the fact that they will lose him in January WITHOUT any compensation -- because his contract will expire. (Baring a decision to make Orton the long-term franchise QB they won't re-sign him).

I'm late to the thread, so this may have been addressed by someone else.

Based on what was reported (all we have besides pure speculation), these statements are completely false.

First, if the Broncos cut him they would still be on the hook for $4.5-5.0 million or so, which makes no sense.

Second, your assertion about the Broncos just picking up part of the salary is wrong, because based on reports, it wasn't just about this years salary, but that Orton wanted a long term salary in the range, or higher, than Kolb got. Miami wasn't willing to give him that contract.

You are posting your wild speculation as if it is fact.

MileHighCrew
08-11-2011, 08:14 AM
He was a terrible head coach and even worse in evaluating talent, I would not say that he's a horrid offensive coach, that may be the only thing he's good at.

Let's look at this carefully North, because I don't see what you do...he drafts Moreno, a tailback that proved worthy behind a zone blocking offensive line and yet, McDaniels knew that he was switching to the power blocking scheme. He could have literally traded down for more picks or up for the likes of Sanchez, either would have been a better choice. Right now word is McGahee is proving to be the better tailback, I would say that unless he breaks out this year, then he's a wash. Ayers a typical 4-3 defensive end better suited for the strong-side was drafted to be a 3-4 rush end? Especially when you look at the talent available around him that we could have taken. He may have a chance to succeed now that we're returning to the 4-3.

But what of those taken after him? Such as Smith? Do I really need to say more? Even being a dumb trade drafting someone like Maualuga or Brace would have proven worth the pick. What about Darcel McBath, Richard Quinn, David Bruton, Seth Olsen, Kenny McKinnley, Tom Brandstater or Blake Schlueter? McKinnley commits suicide, Brandstater is replaced by Tebow a year later, Schlueter and Olsen are both adios. Bruton and McBath are so good that Denver drafted two of the top safeties this past draft, they're not even in competition for a starting position. And Quinn, his value is as a run-blocker only...it's fair to say that unless Moreno suddenly outplays McGahee and Ayers proves more then a decent strong-side defensive end that the draft is not only bad but horrid. We should have had at least one solid starter and one semi starter and both sort of rest on Moreno and Ayers.

What about his last draft? Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton, Decker, Cox, Olsen, Thompson and Kirlew? Thomas is proving to be a huge bust, he's not even third string, he's not even close to being a backup - not to mention that he's injury prone like a glass leg. Beadles and Walton are both starters, so that could be the best draft moves he's made thus far, Decker could prove to be the steal of McDaniels time here. Cox is all but gone and will likely be in prison sooner rather then later. Thompson is showing signs of improvement but is still third-string, Olsen has barely got a shot to make final roster, Kerlew is long gone. And Tebow...well, he barely beat out Quinn for the second spot, he's barely improved according to reports and was drafted in the first though he's a project quarterback. I usually don't agree with Kiper, but the fact that we took him over McCoy who made absolute sense in McDaniels system is mind boggling. If not for Walton and Beadles McDaniels could prove to be the worse drafter in recent memory.


I am not sold Tebow is beating out Quinn, more he is given the 2nd spot. I think Quinn has been much better from what I have read.

vandammage13
08-11-2011, 09:14 AM
I am not sold Tebow is beating out Quinn, more he is given the 2nd spot. I think Quinn has been much better from what I have read.

Wait until the preseason games, my friend...I think it will all sort itself out by week 1.

Although he may surprise me, Quinn will most likely perform worse under real game circumstances. Tebow will most likely look a little better than he does in practice as he will have the freedom to run around and make things happen. It may not be what the coaches want to see from Tebow, but it is exactly his scrambling and improvisation skills that make him what he is.

I am not convinced that Tebow will ever be effective if he is handcuffed and made to play in a conventional fashion. He will most likely never be a great dropback passer.... He needs to be able to have the freedom to make plays. Hopefully, if he can get his pocket skills to just that of an average QB, his other skills will be enough to make him a great QB. I really don't think he's that far off from being a servicable passer, and once he becomes that, he will be very tough for opposing teams to deal with as his threat of running will open up larger passing lanes than most QBs get.

TXBRONC
08-11-2011, 09:19 AM
I am not sold Tebow is beating out Quinn, more he is given the 2nd spot. I think Quinn has been much better from what I have read.

Quinn has pretty much been running with the threes so that easily could be contributing to why he's looked sharp.

Lonestar
08-11-2011, 10:16 AM
That was just this year.

Are you really sure as iirc the FA started in the past on the anniversary of the signed CBA. First week in march.

When the lockout started this year.

Maybe they put dates as to when things will start. But the CBA started and will end in august.

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Tned
08-11-2011, 10:26 AM
Are you really sure as iirc the FA started in the past on the anniversary of the signed CBA. First week in march.

When the lockout started this year.

Maybe they put dates as to when things will start. But the CBA started and will end in august.

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It started in August, but won't end in August. For instance, this CBA runs for 10 years, but lasts until the draft in 2021 or 2022, not August of that year.

I think once we get a copy of the CBA, we will see that the "league year" will run from March to March each year, or something like that.

Lonestar
08-11-2011, 10:27 AM
TEbow needs to be able to pass FRom the pocket. no doubt about it.

But John admitted that he became a better QB once he did and that took time.

I'm guessing Tim will get plenty of development time under John.

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BroncoJoe
08-11-2011, 10:31 AM
Here's the funny thing. When worry lines crease the face of Broncos executive John Elway as he wonders how long it might take Tebow to realize even an improvisational master must learn to win games from the pocket in the NFL, old No. 7 starts to look and sound a little like Dan Reeves.

Nobody who remembers houses in Denver painted orange can forget. Reeves gave Elway the fourth quarter to become an NFL legend of the comeback drive, but only after forcing the Stanford grad to operate at 5 mph under the speed limit for the majority of games during the 1980s.

The conservative approach by Reeves irked Elway. It contributed to the demise of a relationship between a frustrated superstar and his stubborn coach. Denver sided with Elway. Reeves departed.

http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_18658072

Ravage!!!
08-11-2011, 10:39 AM
Elway STILL has the highest rating of any QB.. no.. any PLAYER to ever come out of college. He was already a good passer, and a good QB. He still is THE QB that every other QB coming out of college is compared to.

To say that Tebow is "suffering" from the same difficulties Elway had, is an exaggeration. One that Elway himself can make, because its simply him being humble in is out look at other players. However, Tebow isn't in that same conversation as to just "simply" needing to learn to STAY in the pocket.

Elway could absolutely THROW from the pcket. Elway was comfortable in the pocket and hand an AMAZING 6th sense while standing in the pocket (always was amazing to watch him dodge a guy that you just KNOW there was no way he could have seen). Tebow is not comfortable in the pocket. He doesn't know how to throw and move within the pocket, and is NOT a good passer.

I get what Elway is saying. He needed to learn to give the pocket more time, and so does Tebow. I think that, in itself, is something that all young QBs need to learn....especially the running QBs. But the main thing that Tebow needs to learn above ALL else, is to how to actually identify and undersstand coverages. We know that all rookies need time to learn the more complicated reads of the NFL, but Tebow is behind what MOST 1st round QBs already have experience reading.

If Tebow can show major improvement over this season (and we all hope he does) in identifying reads, and throwing to the right guy, and actually having some semblence of accuracy.... then it will give the Broncos something to think about in the offseason before the draft.

:beer:

As of right now, all the above is pointing to one thing...... find a new QB now instead of wasting 2 more years of waiting on something that doesn't look good.

MileHighCrew
08-11-2011, 10:53 AM
Quinn has pretty much been running with the threes so that easily could be contributing to why he's looked sharp.

True as that might be, he has making the more out of his chances, something Tebow has failed to do.

Npba900
08-12-2011, 04:30 AM
Well the Broncos had a better Red Zone TD percentage then the Eagles last season. So maybe the same thing happens in Philly this season when Vick doesnt get it done... lol

Orton's red zone success or failures will all hinge on whether the Broncos have a consistent-effective running attack that teams will have to respect; thus opening up options for Orton. Let's see if Fox's vaunted running attack allows for Orton to be more successful inside the red zone this season.