John Fox mislabeled as overly conservative?

[Jsteve01]

I posted this in another thread but I feel it's worth it's own discussion. I've been hearing the Reeves comparisons and I just don't think they're fair. Listen John wants to run the football we all know that, but people seem to be forgetting that in their Super Bowl year, Foxy cut Delhomme loose to the tune of almost 3900 yards and 29 tds...those numbers never would have happened under a Dan Reeves type head coach.

Fox like any good coach will tailor his system to what he has. Jake had a career year in 2004 and Fox let him play. after that he regressed to a certain degree and battled injuries.

I think we'll see a steady dose of pounding the ball and a lot of play action pass. The idea that it will be three yards and a cloud of dust just misrepresents the whole of his career. I also think you'll see ER and Lloyd allowed to stretch the field. It's all speculation on my part, but it'll be much more wide open than a Reeves offense.

[HammeredOut]

I posted this in another thread but I feel it's worth it's own discussion. I've been hearing the Reeves comparisons and I just don't think they're fair. Listen John wants to run the football we all know that, but people seem to be forgetting that in their Super Bowl year, Foxy cut Delhomme loose to the tune of almost 3900 yards and 29 tds...those numbers never would have happened under a Dan Reeves type head coach.

Fox like any good coach will tailor his system to what he has. Jake had a career year in 2004 and Fox let him play. after that he regressed to a certain degree and battled injuries.

I think we'll see a steady dose of pounding the ball and a lot of play action pass. The idea that it will be three yards and a cloud of dust just misrepresents the whole of his career. I also think you'll see ER and Lloyd allowed to stretch the field. It's all speculation on my part, but it'll be much more wide open than a Reeves offense.

The Tebow Fan club is lebelling Fox as the next "Reeves".

They don't like that he isnt going with Tebow, so now they are taking shots at the coach. YOu can pull out all the stats you want, but you will get nothing but broad hear say points with no facts. Trust me, its hard to bark up the Tebow Tree, when they are mad.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the conservativeness of the offense is EXTREMELY exaggerated. We heard over and over how Shanahan was a "run first" offense, yet threw the ball more times than he ran it. The perception of Fox is skewed, and its because people listen to a "label" and run with it.

[NightTerror218]

The Tebow Fan club is lebelling Fox as the next "Reeves".

They don't like that he isnt going with Tebow, so now they are taking shots at the coach. YOu can pull out all the stats you want, but you will get nothing but broad hear say points with no facts. Trust me, its hard to bark up the Tebow Tree, when they are mad.

Really you are labeling fans and tebow fans when we want to see tebow because we are not happy with Orton and would like to see what the kid and would like to see if tebow has it and if not would like to draft a q1b in the next draft.

[topscribe]

I posted this in another thread but I feel it's worth it's own discussion. I've been hearing the Reeves comparisons and I just don't think they're fair. Listen John wants to run the football we all know that, but people seem to be forgetting that in their Super Bowl year, Foxy cut Delhomme loose to the tune of almost 3900 yards and 29 tds...those numbers never would have happened under a Dan Reeves type head coach.

Fox like any good coach will tailor his system to what he has. Jake had a career year in 2004 and Fox let him play. after that he regressed to a certain degree and battled injuries.

I think we'll see a steady dose of pounding the ball and a lot of play action pass. The idea that it will be three yards and a cloud of dust just misrepresents the whole of his career. I also think you'll see ER and Lloyd allowed to stretch the field. It's all speculation on my part, but it'll be much more wide open than a Reeves offense.

I believe this is what Fox sees in Orton. Kyle excels in play-action and in the
deep game - both which Fox likes to do.

What Fox wants the running game to do, I'm sure, is to shorten the third-and-
longs, to help convert third downs, and to make the offense more effective in
the red zone. As Kyle said in a recent interview, passing is going to become
much easier with the increase running threat.

-----

[atwater27]

Really you are labeling fans and tebow fans when we want to see tebow because we are not happy with Orton and would like to see what the kid and would like to see if tebow has it and if not would like to draft a q1b in the next draft.

You deal with the cards you are given. Orton wouldn't cooperate with salary restructuring in potential trades. He didn't have to. No teams would bite because of this. reality. So you keep the guy, let them battle it out in training camp and the preseason, and the best QB wins. Why are Tebow fans so afraid of letting the best QB win the job? If they are so sure of the guy, they would have confidence he would win out anyways, right?

[Jsteve01]

I believe this is what Fox sees in Orton. Kyle excels in play-action and in the
deep game - both which Fox likes to do.

What Fox wants the running game to do, I'm sure, is to shorten the third-and-
longs, to help convert third downs, and to make the offense more effective in
the red zone. As Kyle said in a recent interview, passing is going to become
much easier with the increase running threat.

-----

somehow he was effective with the play action pass without an effective run game last year. Im excited to see what this team can do with even a middle of the road run game.

[NightTerror218]

You deal with the cards you are given. Orton wouldn't cooperate with salary restructuring in potential trades. He didn't have to. No teams would bite because of this. reality. So you keep the guy, let them battle it out in training camp and the preseason, and the best QB wins. Why are Tebow fans so afraid of letting the best QB win the job? If they are so sure of the guy, they would have confidence he would win out anyways, right?

Because we know how Orton plays and how he will do and well.....I am not happy with it. He does not do anything that can improve this team. He is not a clutch player, he is not a leader, and he is not a guy I want to depend on.

I rather see what we have in Tebow and see if we should look into drafting a QB in the next draft.

[Jsteve01]

Because we know how Orton plays and how he will do and well.....I am not happy with it. He does not do anything that can improve this team. He is not a clutch player, he is not a leader, and he is not a guy I want to depend on.

I rather see what we have in Tebow and see if we should look into drafting a QB in the next draft.

that's just the thing, we've never seen a mature Orton with stability on the O line, a decent defense and a run game. We have no idea how he'll perform this year. Sure we know he wasn't able to overcome 3rd and longs repeatedly, but Im just bewildered as to how so many people are willing to write off everything that McD did and yet not willing to acknowledge all the factors that led to failure for our offense last year.

[NightTerror218]

that's just the thing, we've never seen a mature Orton with stability on the O line, a decent defense and a run game. We have no idea how he'll perform this year. Sure we know he wasn't able to overcome 3rd and longs repeatedly, but Im just bewildered as to how so many people are willing to write off everything that McD did and yet not willing to acknowledge all the factors that led to failure for our offense last year.

Yup saw that in Chicago....next question


but we did have that in a couple games last season....we lost 6 games but less then 8 points.....he could not give us a game winning drive or TDs just FGs

[Jsteve01]

Yup saw that in Chicago....next question


but we did have that in a couple games last season....we lost 6 games but less then 8 points.....he could not give us a game winning drive or TDs just FGs

well if you prefer to be smug, here's my response. The football people associated with the Broncos (all of whom on the offensive staff have been around all three qbs the past two camps) say Orton is the guy and Tebow isn't. So I guess we'll get to see more of the same this year.

[NightTerror218]

well if you prefer to be smug, here's my response. The football people associated with the Broncos (all of whom on the offensive staff have been around all three qbs the past two camps) say Orton is the guy and Tebow isn't. So I guess we'll get to see more of the same this year.

like who? O you mean ESPN analyst or reports or "experts" who right for the denver post? Who are you talking about? Because nobody from the organization has said anything about who is the starting QB. Fox handles that and said it is still a competition.

[jhildebrand]

Even if he is conservative, who cares? :confused:

The fact is this team is rebuilding and will have youth at many positions. It wont be long before this is one of the youngest teams in the league like KC two seasons ago. When you are a young team conservative schemes with a focus on fundamentals is probably the best cornerstone to build from. It is all about getting the fundamentals down and building from there.

[I Eat Staples]

Good post OP. Fox threw the ball enough for Jake Delhomme to make a pro bowl. I'm not concerned.

[MOtorboat]

well if you prefer to be smug, here's my response. The football people associated with the Broncos (all of whom on the offensive staff have been around all three qbs the past two camps) say Orton is the guy and Tebow isn't. So I guess we'll get to see more of the same this year.

like who? O you mean ESPN analyst or reports or "experts" who right for the denver post? Who are you talking about? Because nobody from the organization has said anything about who is the starting QB. Fox handles that and said it is still a competition.

I prefer people who right on the internet, myself.

[jhildebrand]

I prefer people who right on the internet, myself.

I know write.

Sorry, MO I couldn't resist. :lol:

[silkamilkamonico]

The Tebow Fan club is lebelling Fox as the next "Reeves".

They don't like that he isnt going with Tebow, so now they are taking shots at the coach. YOu can pull out all the stats you want, but you will get nothing but broad hear say points with no facts. Trust me, its hard to bark up the Tebow Tree, when they are mad.


This might just be the dumbest post yet, somehow insinuating that Tebow had influence during john Fox's entire tenure at Carolina, which was overly conservative.

[BroncoStud]

The Tebow Fan club is lebelling Fox as the next "Reeves".

They don't like that he isnt going with Tebow, so now they are taking shots at the coach. YOu can pull out all the stats you want, but you will get nothing but broad hear say points with no facts. Trust me, its hard to bark up the Tebow Tree, when they are mad.

Hey at least your consistent Tebow-bashing earned you a high-5 from Topscribe... That has to rock! :beer:

How about throwing me some of your 95% accurate NFL picks every Sunday???

[atwater27]

Because we know how Orton plays and how he will do and well.....I am not happy with it. He does not do anything that can improve this team. He is not a clutch player, he is not a leader, and he is not a guy I want to depend on.

I rather see what we have in Tebow and see if we should look into drafting a QB in the next draft.

If he is worth a flying shit, he will beat out Orton in training camp and the preseason. He will have his opportunity. What makes you think that if he can't beat out Orton (or Quinn for that matter) in training camp and preseason, he will magically be a better QB than them in the regular season games?

[BroncoStud]

If he is worth a flying shit, he will beat out Orton in training camp and the preseason. He will have his opportunity. What makes you think that if he can't beat out Orton (or Quinn for that matter) in training camp and preseason, he will magically be a better QB than them in the regular season games?

It's like the old saying goes...

Anyone can learn to aim a gun, it's the ones who can still aim a gun when someone is shooting at them that live.

[NightTerror218]

If he is worth a flying shit, he will beat out Orton in training camp and the preseason. He will have his opportunity. What makes you think that if he can't beat out Orton (or Quinn for that matter) in training camp and preseason, he will magically be a better QB than them in the regular season games?

Because Orton is amazing in TC and when there is no pressure. Tebow is still young and raw. He could handle the pressure better and use his legs to expend plays. Orton has always been great in practice and not so in games except garbage time. We know the areas he needs to improve except those are no areas you can coach a QB to improve on. You can change your play calling to help but it is a flaw of the QB. I am referring to 3rd down and 4th quarter. You cant coach Orton to improve those areas of his game. He is at his ceiling and Tebow is not, that is a fact. How high or low Tebows ceiling is has yet to be determined. I want to know for one.

[atwater27]

Because Orton is amazing in TC and when there is no pressure. Tebow is still young and raw. He could handle the pressure better and use his legs to expend plays. Orton has always been great in practice and not so in games except garbage time. We know the areas he needs to improve except those are no areas you can coach a QB to improve on. You can change your play calling to help but it is a flaw of the QB. I am referring to 3rd down and 4th quarter. You cant coach Orton to improve those areas of his game. He is at his ceiling and Tebow is not, that is a fact. How high or low Tebows ceiling is has yet to be determined. I want to know for one.

I don't understand your guys' logic here. If you can't complete half your passes with shorts on and very little hitting, what in the hell makes you think those passes will be completed when it's go time? You talk about Tebow's high and low ceiling, yet you don't acknowledge that he isn't even capable of beating Kyle out without freaking pads on. Like I said, he won't MAGICALLY get better when the games start.

[topscribe]

Hey at least your consistent Tebow-bashing earned you a high-5 from Topscribe... That has to rock! :beer:

How about throwing me some of your 95% accurate NFL picks every Sunday???

The post I saluted said nothing about Tebow himself. It was about the Tebowners
who feel they need to vaunt Tebow through their constant bashing of Orton
(perhaps you can identify with that?).

But then, why am I responding to this? :rolleyes:

-----

[Jsteve01]

like who? O you mean ESPN analyst or reports or "experts" who right for the denver post? Who are you talking about? Because nobody from the organization has said anything about who is the starting QB. Fox handles that and said it is still a competition.

He's said and I quote: "Kyle is our starting quarterback, I've been saying the same thing for 7 months now"

Hence Kyle running the 1s and Timmy and Brady splitting time with the 2s

[jlarsiii]

If he is worth a flying shit, he will beat out Orton in training camp and the preseason. He will have his opportunity. What makes you think that if he can't beat out Orton (or Quinn for that matter) in training camp and preseason, he will magically be a better QB than them in the regular season games?

Dangerous question to ask my man. The Tebow crew do not care about who is the best QB on the team either now or when the season starts. Regardless they want him on the field. They are not interested in putting the best team out there. They only want to get their teboners on. . .

They will dance around any idea of having Tebow actually win the job. All they will say is Orton this. . . and Orton that . . . to justify the move. They will never put down the win the job mantra cause as it stands right now Tebow isn't getting it done in that department.

[Northman]

Great article here:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/passrun-ratio


One of the reasons I’m saying that is because I believe the departure of former coach John Fox and his offensive philosophy (control the ball with the running game, rely on the occasional pass and win with strong defense) have cause the organization to re-evaluate things. One of the reasons, Newton is getting this kind of consideration is because the Panthers believe that the league has changed and is now, more than ever, driven by quarterbacks.


Lining up under center is still far more common in the NFL, but the shotgun formation has been used a lot more the past three seasons. In 2010, 38.3 percent of league-wide snaps came out of the shotgun formation, while 61.7 percent came from under center. In 2009, 37 percent of snaps came out of the shotgun formation and the figure was 32.3 percent in 2008.


Bottom line: If the Panthers want to compete in the modern NFL, they’re going to have to scrap the offense Fox and offensive coordinator Jeff Davidson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=6996) ran and new coach Ron Rivera and coordinator Rob Chudzinski need to use a more creative offensive scheme. It would help if they have a quarterback that allows them to be creative.

[Jsteve01]

well phidelt if he "expends" plays we'll be in the same boat we were last year I guess. Now if the guy can extend a play then we'll win a super bowl. Just ask Donovan and Vick.....oh wait

[NightTerror218]

I don't understand your guys' logic here. If you can't complete half your passes with shorts on and very little hitting, what in the hell makes you think those passes will be completed when it's go time?

reading some reports is that Tebow is focusing on his footwork and form and taking longer to throw the ball. I see him reverting to his "normal habits" during a game. As for half his passes where that come from?

Wednesday he was 3 for 4 in the 2 min drill. Orton was 4 for 6 and Quinn I dont know but he was intercepted.

Do you have the numbers for camp on the actual amount of completed passes vs thrown?

[jlarsiii]

If Fox is going to implement a conservative offensive scheme, then which QB is going to render the scheme even more conservative?

With Tebow wouldn't it stand to reason that it would be even more conservative with even more run plays called?

[Jsteve01]

Great article here:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/passrun-ratio

did I not just address this? How in the world can Fox be blamed for not opening it up with an aging DelHomme and then Matt Moore and freaking claussen?

Super bowl year almost 4k yards from Delhomme and 29 tds...sounds waaaay too conservative for me

[NightTerror218]

well phidelt if he "expends" plays we'll be in the same boat we were last year I guess. Now if the guy can extend a play then we'll win a super bowl. Just ask Donovan and Vick.....oh wait

was there I point there? You called me out and stated nothing, was there something I missed in there?

Elway was known for extending plays with his feet, so was Steve Young and Roders. I can keep naming QBs. Donovan went to how many Pro Bowls and NFC Championships?

[silkamilkamonico]

If Fox is going to be ultra conservative again in Denver, and wins, you won't hear 1 ounce of complaining from me.

It's just not winning with that is terrible to watch. At least with Shanahan/Cutler era I could count on an exciting game to watch.

[jlarsiii]

If Fox is going to be ultra conservative again in Denver, and wins, you won't hear 1 ounce of complaining from me.

It's just not winning with that is terrible to watch. At least with Shanahan/Cutler era I could count on an exciting game to watch.

Well said. .

[Northman]

did I not just address this? How in the world can Fox be blamed for not opening it up with an aging DelHomme and then Matt Moore and freaking claussen?

Super bowl year almost 4k yards from Delhomme and 29 tds...sounds waaaay too conservative for me

So wait? Your basing your theory off of one year? Really? :lol:

[Tangerine]

So wait? Your basing your theory off of one year? Really? :lol:

We don't know what kind of offense Fox is going to run until we actually see it. On the opposite side of a conservative offense, we saw how far McDaniels pass heavy offense got us last year. All we know is McCoy is still calling the plays, the offense could be similar to what we ran the last few games.

[Jsteve01]

was there I point there? You called me out and stated nothing, was there something I missed in there?

Elway was known for extending plays with his feet, so was Steve Young and Roders. I can keep naming QBs. Donovan went to how many Pro Bowls and NFC Championships?

lol I was messing with you. Your original quote said expends plays...a little play on words amigo. Don't take everything so seriously

[BroncoStud]

The post I saluted said nothing about Tebow himself. It was about the Tebowners
who feel they need to vaunt Tebow through their constant bashing of Orton
(perhaps you can identify with that?).

But then, why am I responding to this? :rolleyes:

-----

Wrong, I was bashing Orton long before Tebow came along. :beer:

[HammeredOut]

Wrong, I was bashing Orton long before Tebow came along. :beer:

After Tebow gets cut, you will see Tebow fans like this disappear with them. They migrate with the player, and have no true sense of admiration for the team. Whats on tebows twitter today anyways?

"This reminds me of Quinnville in Cleveland" -- Willie McGinist, NFL Network

[HORSEPOWER 56]

that's just the thing, we've never seen a mature Orton with stability on the O line, a decent defense and a run game. We have no idea how he'll perform this year. Sure we know he wasn't able to overcome 3rd and longs repeatedly, but Im just bewildered as to how so many people are willing to write off everything that McD did and yet not willing to acknowledge all the factors that led to failure for our offense last year.

:confused:

What do you call the first 6 games of '09? The defense was top ten and we had a solid rushing attack. The problem was, Orton wasn't winning games as much as he was not losing them. That was evidenced by the fact that when we really needed Orton to step up because the defense began to fade, we went 2-8.

Give any QB "stability" (spoken: good) on the O-line, a decent defense and a run game and they'll win games. The true test is if he can overcome adversity and still win games even when the situation isn't ideal. The Packers had 16 starters out last year. If the Broncos lost 16 starters, we'd be lucky to score a point.

Be honest, if Brandon Lloyd goes down, do you think Orton can still be even as remotely productive? Does he even target the other receivers more than once or twice a game? Without Lloyd making magnificent catches all year, Orton isn't even a mediocre QB, he's down with Derek Anderson and Jimmy Claussen.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Wrong, I was bashing Orton long before Tebow came along. :beer:

You and me both! It's been a bone of contention of mine since the spring of '09! Kyle never fails to prove me right, either!

[BroncoStud]

After Tebow gets cut, you will see Tebow fans like this disappear with them. They migrate with the player, and have no true sense of admiration for the team. Whats on tebows twitter today anyways?

"This reminds me of Quinnville in Cleveland" -- Willie McGinist, NFL Network

Ship them all out, just get us a QB who doesn't suck when it matters. I watched my first Broncos game when Craig Morton was QB, I've seen them come and go but even Griese had more balls, guts, and leadership than Orton does.

[Jsteve01]

So wait? Your basing your theory off of one year? Really? :lol:

no Im not. He threw quite a bit the next year as well after that he battled injuries and Foxy didn't have a qb he could trust. check the stats for yourself

http://www.nfl.com/player/jakedelhomme/2500361/profile

[NightTerror218]

After Tebow gets cut, you will see Tebow fans like this disappear with them. They migrate with the player, and have no true sense of admiration for the team. Whats on tebows twitter today anyways?

"This reminds me of Quinnville in Cleveland" -- Willie McGinist, NFL Network

I have been a bronco fan since day 1 of my life....I was a tebow fan since oh 2008 maybe. If he is not a bronco I will hope he does well and will still follow him, like people do with players they like. But I will always go against him if he plays against us. Not every bronco follows just broncos.....I follow plenty of PAC 10 (or 12) players that I watched in college and follow careers in NFL.......Cal Fan here so an example is I follow Javid Best.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Ship them all out, just get us a QB who doesn't suck when it matters. I watched my first Broncos game when Craig Morton was QB, I've seen them come and go but even Griese had more balls, guts, and leadership than Orton does.

Well... I wouldn't go that far. Let's just go with both of them suck...

Griese actually looked promising until his shoulder injury. Then he got gun shy and was all but done...

[BroncoStud]

that's just the thing, we've never seen a mature Orton with stability on the O line, a decent defense and a run game. We have no idea how he'll perform this year. Sure we know he wasn't able to overcome 3rd and longs repeatedly, but Im just bewildered as to how so many people are willing to write off everything that McD did and yet not willing to acknowledge all the factors that led to failure for our offense last year.

History tells us that Orton doesn't perform well in a traditional offense. I think, if anything, we will see him come back to Earth, if you will. His stats were inflated because of the system he ran, not because he has all-world ability.

I believe it is an actual stat that Orton did not convert a 3rd down last year when he threw an incomplete pass on 2nd down... Wow, just wow. Dude lacks a strong arm and it shows.

[NightTerror218]

Ship them all out, just get us a QB who doesn't suck when it matters. I watched my first Broncos game when Craig Morton was QB, I've seen them come and go but even Griese had more balls, guts, and leadership than Orton does.

I remember when I was a kid my dad would dress me in bronco gear every sunday and watch them. He wore a bronco shirt, I wore hat, jacket and shirt. I remember watch Elway and that was all I knew.

[Northman]

no Im not. He threw quite a bit the next year as well after that he battled injuries and Foxy didn't have a qb he could trust. check the stats for yourself

http://www.nfl.com/player/jakedelhomme/2500361/profile

A Qb he couldnt trust? What? lol

Dude, after his absolute meltdown against AZ, they resigned his ass to a big contract!!! :lol:

[xzn]

If he is worth a flying shit, he will beat out Orton in training camp and the preseason. He will have his opportunity. What makes you think that if he can't beat out Orton (or Quinn for that matter) in training camp and preseason, he will magically be a better QB than them in the regular season games?

Right on :salute:

We're only a few days into camp and haven't seen any games, or even full scrimmages right?

There's no big rush to name a starter. Fox has said this consistently, let's just all let it play out.

It'll be Fox's call, although I'm sure he'll weigh JAE's opinion heavily. :listen:

[Cugel]

Here's REALITY FM in the NFL:

Kyle Orton was signed to an extension last year that gives him a $7.4 million salary for 2009 PLUS a $1.5 million roster bonus. His actual total is $7.875 million for 2011! IF they keep him on the opening day roster.

NOBODY but NOBODY is going to pay a QB nearly $9 million to sit on the bench holding a clip-board (an average of $554,000 per game).

So, the Broncos had a decision: either keep Orton and pay him his starter salary or else trade or cut him, save the $8.75 million and go with Tebow or Quinn.

When the Broncos started peddling Orton that indicated a decision to go with Tebow (or just possibly Quinn).

Two weeks later, Orton is off the trading-block. Unless they suddenly decide to CUT him in the last cuts before the season they are starting Kyle Orton; because there is no longer a team that wants to trade for him. Not even for a 4th rounder.

There's no future in Orton anyway because he's a FA next year.

THE ONLY REASON why this is happening is that Fox & Elway do NOT like what they are seeing out of Tebow and have re-evaluated their situation.

They are now going to go with Orton as the starter this season and figure out what to do with Tebow in 2012. They will probably observe whether he's able to fix his footwork in practice during the season.

Elway said publicly that Tebow would have to learn to become a drop-back pocket passer. He said that back this winter when he talked about how "raw" Tebow was. He said he thought Tebow could do it. But, that's the requirement.

The Broncos are NOT going to start Tebow and run the spread formation. That is NOT what Fox wants from his offense.

No matter what the noise out of Dove Valley about "nobody has decided yet" that's pure and total B.S.! They are going with Orton game 1. Period.

They may use Tebow in special packages -- or not. I don't know. I assume they'll try and get as much out of him as they can, but I have no idea what that will mean. Do they bench Orton inside the 20 and bring Tebow off the bench to run the wild-cat? I doubt it.

[Jsteve01]

A Qb he couldnt trust? What? lol

Dude, after his absolute meltdown against AZ, they resigned his ass to a big contract!!! :lol:

i know....im saying after that Delhomme was hurt or the guy the put in wasn't a guy they could trust. sheesh north if you want to argue that's fine but the stats speak for themselves.

[NorCalBronco7]

Here's REALITY FM in the NFL:

Kyle Orton was signed to an extension last year that gives him a $7.4 million salary for 2009 PLUS a $1.5 million roster bonus. His actual total is $7.875 million for 2011! IF they keep him on the opening day roster.

NOBODY but NOBODY is going to pay a QB nearly $9 million to sit on the bench holding a clip-board (an average of $554,000 per game).

So, the Broncos had a decision: either keep Orton and pay him his starter salary or else trade or cut him, save the $8.75 million and go with Tebow or Quinn.

When the Broncos started peddling Orton that indicated a decision to go with Tebow (or just possibly Quinn).

Two weeks later, Orton is off the trading-block. Unless they suddenly decide to CUT him in the last cuts before the season they are starting Kyle Orton; because there is no longer a team that wants to trade for him. Not even for a 4th rounder.

There's no future in Orton anyway because he's a FA next year.

THE ONLY REASON why this is happening is that Fox & Elway do NOT like what they are seeing out of Tebow and have re-evaluated their situation.

They are now going to go with Orton as the starter this season and figure out what to do with Tebow in 2012. They will probably observe whether he's able to fix his footwork in practice during the season.

Elway said publicly that Tebow would have to learn to become a drop-back pocket passer. He said that back this winter when he talked about how "raw" Tebow was. He said he thought Tebow could do it. But, that's the requirement.

The Broncos are NOT going to start Tebow and run the spread formation. That is NOT what Fox wants from his offense.

No matter what the noise out of Dove Valley about "nobody has decided yet" that's pure and total B.S.! They are going with Orton game 1. Period.

They may use Tebow in special packages -- or not. I don't know. I assume they'll try and get as much out of him as they can, but I have no idea what that will mean. Do they bench Orton inside the 20 and bring Tebow off the bench to run the wild-cat? I doubt it.

I understand Orton carries a lofty price tag, but if Tebow or Quinn looks better in TC and practice, Im sure Fox will go wiith the best player. Whether its Ayers, Dawkins, or whoever, I bet the best player at each position will start reguardless of what they are getting paid.

[Cugel]

Right on :salute:

We're only a few days into camp and haven't seen any games, or even full scrimmages right?

There's no big rush to name a starter. Fox has said this consistently, let's just all let it play out.

It'll be Fox's call, although I'm sure he'll weigh JAE's opinion heavily. :listen:

It doesn't matter if they've "named" a starter or not if everybody in the world, including Elway and John Fox know it's Orton.

They're not fooling anybody except some Tebow fans who just don't factor in the fact that Kyle Orton is making nearly $9 million a year -- and is a FA next season.

They're just not paying him that kind of money to be a bench-warmer. I doubt that has ever happened in the history of the NFL and it's not going to happen here. :coffee:

[NightTerror218]

Here's REALITY FM in the NFL:

Kyle Orton was signed to an extension last year that gives him a $7.4 million salary for 2009 PLUS a $1.5 million roster bonus. His actual total is $7.875 million for 2011! IF they keep him on the opening day roster.

NOBODY but NOBODY is going to pay a QB nearly $9 million to sit on the bench holding a clip-board (an average of $554,000 per game).

So, the Broncos had a decision: either keep Orton and pay him his starter salary or else trade or cut him, save the $8.75 million and go with Tebow or Quinn.

When the Broncos started peddling Orton that indicated a decision to go with Tebow (or just possibly Quinn).

Two weeks later, Orton is off the trading-block. Unless they suddenly decide to CUT him in the last cuts before the season they are starting Kyle Orton; because there is no longer a team that wants to trade for him. Not even for a 4th rounder.

There's no future in Orton anyway because he's a FA next year.

THE ONLY REASON why this is happening is that Fox & Elway do NOT like what they are seeing out of Tebow and have re-evaluated their situation.

They are now going to go with Orton as the starter this season and figure out what to do with Tebow in 2012. They will probably observe whether he's able to fix his footwork in practice during the season.

Elway said publicly that Tebow would have to learn to become a drop-back pocket passer. He said that back this winter when he talked about how "raw" Tebow was. He said he thought Tebow could do it. But, that's the requirement.

The Broncos are NOT going to start Tebow and run the spread formation. That is NOT what Fox wants from his offense.

No matter what the noise out of Dove Valley about "nobody has decided yet" that's pure and total B.S.! They are going with Orton game 1. Period.

They may use Tebow in special packages -- or not. I don't know. I assume they'll try and get as much out of him as they can, but I have no idea what that will mean. Do they bench Orton inside the 20 and bring Tebow off the bench to run the wild-cat? I doubt it.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Total BS? What you wrote just was total BS, no facts, all opinion, besides the salary numbers. It is a complete assumption.

[HammeredOut]

well last season Orton throw 13 TDs in the Redzone, with no INTs. So it shows he makes sound decisions in the redzone. Same amount as Mike Vick, and more then guys like Roth, with less turnovers then vick, roth, cutler rodgers, rivers.

[NightTerror218]

well last season Orton throw 13 TDs in the Redzone, with no INTs. So it shows he makes sound decisions in the redzone. Same amount as Mike Vick, and more then guys like Roth, with less turnovers then vick, roth, cutler rodgers, rivers.

How many 3 and outs did he have compared to them?

[Cugel]

I understand Orton carries a lofty price tag, but if Tebow or Quinn looks better in TC and practice, Im sure Fox will go wiith the best player. Whether its Ayers, Dawkins, or whoever, I bet the best player at each position will start reguardless of what they are getting paid.

That's just a complete and total FANTASY! MOney matters a great deal in the NFL. There is a set amount you pay for a starter at each position, and a "reasonable" amount you pay his backup. That's the ONLY way you can manage your salary cap and keep the salaries in line with what the position is worth. A starting QB is worth $9 million. A backup QB is not. Period.

I don't think there has ever been a backup QB in the history of the NFL who made $9 million a year and the Broncos aren't going to be the first now.

Tebow is making backup QB money ($1.6 million this season). That's great if you can get a starter and only pay him backup money.

But, Kyle Orton is making veteran starter money. Hence he must start, be traded or cut BEFORE game 1 so they don't have to pay him an additional $1.5 million 53 man roster bonus to sit there on the bench! .


If you believe they will do that then you are just hopelessly naive!

If they decided that Tebow was going to be their starter game one they would have to cut or trade Orton. The Dolphins offered a 4th round for him. They declined.

That settles it. :coffee:

[NightTerror218]

That's just a complete and total FANTASY! MOney matters a great deal in the NFL. There is a set amount you pay for a starter at each position, and a "reasonable" amount you pay his backup. That's the ONLY way you can manage your salary cap and keep the salaries in line with what the position is worth. A starting QB is worth $9 million. A backup QB is not. Period.

I don't think there has ever been a backup QB in the history of the NFL who made $9 million a year and the Broncos aren't going to be the first now.

Tebow is making backup QB money ($1.6 million this season). That's great if you can get a starter and only pay him backup money.

But, Kyle Orton is making veteran starter money. Hence he must start, be traded or cut BEFORE game 1 so they don't have to pay him an additional $1.5 million 53 man roster bonus to sit there on the bench! .


If you believe they will do that then you are just hopelessly naive!

If they decided that Tebow was going to be their starter game one they would have to cut or trade Orton. The Dolphins offered a 4th round for him. They declined.

That settles it. :coffee:


He already got the roster bonus

[xzn]

It doesn't matter if they've "named" a starter or not if everybody in the world, including Elway and John Fox know it's Orton.

They're not fooling anybody except some Tebow fans who just don't factor in the fact that Kyle Orton is making nearly $9 million a year -- and is a FA next season.

They're just not paying him that kind of money to be a bench-warmer. I doubt that has ever happened in the history of the NFL and it's not going to happen here. :coffee:

I don't doubt what you're saying, but it's still Fox who has the accountability for the consequences of making a decision and he'll pick who he thinks gives him the best chance to win right now. Conveniently, that's most likely Orton.

Although I maintain a glimmer of hope for Tebow since we haven't seen so much as a full 11 on 11 scrimmage yet! ;)

[Cugel]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Total BS? What you wrote just was total BS, no facts, all opinion, besides the salary numbers. It is a complete assumption.

Watch and learn! "Besides the salary numbers?"

There IS nothing "besides the salary numbers!"

Why do you suppose the Broncos tried to deal Orton in the first place instead of keeping him as the backup to Tebow in case Tebow failed.

From the standpoint of simply "having the best player" that would make total sense. But, it utterly ignores NFL financial reality.

NO team is going to pay $9 million to a guy when a backup QB slot is worth about $2 - $3 million tops. The ONLY time when the backup made MORE than that is when it's a rookie QB draft pick and he's not ready to start.

Hence the Chargers kept Drew Brees and sat Phillip Rivers for a year.

But, then his second year they had to decide whether to keep Rivers or Brees. They either had to decide to start Brees or trade him, because he was making NFL starter money and it just makes no sense to pay a guy that kind of money to sit on the bench.

Same thing here. :coffee:

[Jsteve01]

That's just a complete and total FANTASY! MOney matters a great deal in the NFL. There is a set amount you pay for a starter at each position, and a "reasonable" amount you pay his backup. That's the ONLY way you can manage your salary cap and keep the salaries in line with what the position is worth. A starting QB is worth $9 million. A backup QB is not. Period.

I don't think there has ever been a backup QB in the history of the NFL who made $9 million a year and the Broncos aren't going to be the first now.

Tebow is making backup QB money ($1.6 million this season). That's great if you can get a starter and only pay him backup money.

But, Kyle Orton is making veteran starter money. Hence he must start, be traded or cut BEFORE game 1 so they don't have to pay him an additional $1.5 million 53 man roster bonus to sit there on the bench! .


If you believe they will do that then you are just hopelessly naive!

If they decided that Tebow was going to be their starter game one they would have to cut or trade Orton. The Dolphins offered a 4th round for him. They declined.

That settles it. :coffee:

that's not the whole story, Orton wouldn't come off his salary demands and Miami wouldn't trade for him with no assurance that he signs.

[NightTerror218]

that's not the whole story, Orton wouldn't come off his salary demands and Miami wouldn't trade for him with no assurance that he signs.

That was what I said....he ignored it.

Fact is that Orton is over paid and we tried to deal him to increase our cap to get some FA. But we managed to get some even w/o trading him. His salary is one of those MISTAKES that EFX has to deal with when you take over a team. There are just some mistakes you can not undo.

[Cugel]

I don't doubt what you're saying, but it's still Fox who has the accountability for the consequences of making a decision and he'll pick who he thinks gives him the best chance to win right now. Conveniently, that's most likely Orton.

Although I maintain a glimmer of hope for Tebow since we haven't seen so much as a full 11 on 11 scrimmage yet! ;)

It's certainly possible that Tebow will have an amazing series of games and Orton will suck the entire pre-season -- in which case Fox might decide to reverse his decision and cut Orton.

In that case though they don't keep Kyle Orton. They simply cut him in the last cuts before the start of the season and name Tebow the starter. That way they save $9 million.

Kyle Orton would NOT sit quietly if he were named the backup. He's made that abundantly clear. He'd be in a rage and there WOULD be consequences -- just as there were in 1999 when Shanahan did this with Bubby Brister.

(Bubby Brister wasn't making big $ though, so they could keep both on the roster).

I highly doubt that will happen. It would be too disruptive. If something like that is in the works, we will know by game 3 of the pre-season by the latest -- because Tebow will be starting.

If that happens, then Orton is in trouble.

[NightTerror218]

It's certainly possible that Tebow will have an amazing series of games and Orton will suck the entire pre-season -- in which case Fox might decide to reverse his decision and cut Orton.

In that case though they don't keep Kyle Orton. They simply cut him in the last cuts before the start of the season and name Tebow the starter. That way they save $9 million.

Kyle Orton would NOT sit quietly if he were named the backup. He's made that abundantly clear. He'd be in a rage and there WOULD be consequences -- just as there were in 1999 when Shanahan did this with Bubby Brister.

(Bubby Brister wasn't making big $ though, so they could keep both on the roster).

I highly doubt that will happen. It would be too disruptive. If something like that is in the works, we will know by game 3 of the pre-season by the latest -- because Tebow will be starting.

If that happens, then Orton is in trouble.


If that happens....

The other option is to stick Orton out there cheap and hope someone bites even though he has an over priced salary for talent. But cutting him would be financially the best move. Would clear more space for them to acquire waived players like Fox was talking about.

[Cugel]

That was what I said....he ignored it.

Fact is that Orton is over paid and we tried to deal him to increase our cap to get some FA. But we managed to get some even w/o trading him. His salary is one of those MISTAKES that EFX has to deal with when you take over a team. There are just some mistakes you can not undo.

Sure you can. You cut or trade Orton. If you can't trade him for whatever reason, you cut him and save $9 million. :coffee:

His salary isn't guaranteed and the only bonus he's due is the $1.5 million roster bonus that he gets if he's on the roster opening day.

So cutting Orton now won't cost anything as long as they do it in the pre-season. Lots of teams go into the season with 2 QBs and Brady Quinn is a veteran who was a former starter so he has experience (mostly bad, but experience).

[Jsteve01]

It's certainly possible that Tebow will have an amazing series of games and Orton will suck the entire pre-season -- in which case Fox might decide to reverse his decision and cut Orton.

In that case though they don't keep Kyle Orton. They simply cut him in the last cuts before the start of the season and name Tebow the starter. That way they save $9 million.

Kyle Orton would NOT sit quietly if he were named the backup. He's made that abundantly clear. He'd be in a rage and there WOULD be consequences -- just as there were in 1999 when Shanahan did this with Bubby Brister.

(Bubby Brister wasn't making big $ though, so they could keep both on the roster).

I highly doubt that will happen. It would be too disruptive. If something like that is in the works, we will know by game 3 of the pre-season by the latest -- because Tebow will be starting.

If that happens, then Orton is in trouble.

they already paid him a roster bonus, it wouldn't save us real dollars not sure about the cap space

[Jsteve01]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/30/conflicting-reports-emerge-on-whether-orton-to-miami-deal-is-dead/

according to klis we're in for 4.4 even if he gets cut

[NorCalBronco7]

That's just a complete and total FANTASY! MOney matters a great deal in the NFL. There is a set amount you pay for a starter at each position, and a "reasonable" amount you pay his backup. That's the ONLY way you can manage your salary cap and keep the salaries in line with what the position is worth. A starting QB is worth $9 million. A backup QB is not. Period.

I don't think there has ever been a backup QB in the history of the NFL who made $9 million a year and the Broncos aren't going to be the first now.

Tebow is making backup QB money ($1.6 million this season). That's great if you can get a starter and only pay him backup money.

But, Kyle Orton is making veteran starter money. Hence he must start, be traded or cut BEFORE game 1 so they don't have to pay him an additional $1.5 million 53 man roster bonus to sit there on the bench! .


If you believe they will do that then you are just hopelessly naive!

If they decided that Tebow was going to be their starter game one they would have to cut or trade Orton. The Dolphins offered a 4th round for him. They declined.

That settles it. :coffee:

What about Mcnabb last year, Vince Young....

Its not all about money, although it is a big factor.

[xzn]

If that happens....

The other option is to stick Orton out there cheap and hope someone bites even though he has an over priced salary for talent. But cutting him would be financially the best move. Would clear more space for them to acquire waived players like Fox was talking about.

In this scenario, you'd at least hope the team could get a 4th.

Best case is that an inevitable injury happens somewhere in the league to a QB and we have a window to ship Orton with Tebow or Quinn showing enough that we don't mind doing it.

I think Fox would need to see enough out of either 15 or 9 to sign off on a deal shipping Kyle. Then again, that would not be his call on the org. flow chart. :coffee:

[Cugel]

If that happens....

The other option is to stick Orton out there cheap and hope someone bites even though he has an over priced salary for talent. But cutting him would be financially the best move. Would clear more space for them to acquire waived players like Fox was talking about.

That's a THEORETICAL option, but no teams are really in the market for Orton at this point let alone right before the season starts. Plus, the Broncos have taken Orton off the table. I don't think that's any kind of bluff.

It makes no sense as a bluff. It would simply take badly needed practice time with the 1st team away from Tebow -- when he clearly needs all the practice he can get before the season starts. And the chances of a deal are remote by now.

If there was some kind of deal in the works, we would be hearing about it by now.

You're certainly right that cutting Orton outright would make the most financial sense. So you don't get anything for him? At least you wouldn't have to pay him an outrageous salary that he's almost certainly not worth.

That $9 million is the kind of salary you ONLY pay IF you think Kyle Orton is your "QB of the future" which he never was (else they shouldn't have drafted Tebow). Signing him to that extension was pure idiocy on McMoron's part. One decision in a long line of such stupidity.

So, why is EFX paying Orton that kind of money for 1 year? Because they are desperate! They have no confidence in Quinn or Tebow as their starter (clearly or they'd have dumped Orton and his big salary). And they're hoping to avoid a disaster where the Broncos lose 10 or 12 or 13 games and it's just devastating to the young players they have. Losing becomes contagious. Players, especially young players begin to doubt themselves. The fans get angry. Bad scene all around.

They probably figure that with Orton they win at least 6 games and keep the wheels from coming off the wagon. If they get lucky and get off to a good start like in 2009, they might win 8 games.

And they have to figure that Orton gives them the best chance of that. They'll deal with what comes next after the season and they see what kind of year Orton had, how Tebow developed during the season, what they think of Quinn at that point.

Then they decide either to draft a QB or go with one of the ones they have.

[xzn]

This is strictly my opinion and guess. Orton starts the season but is replaced by Tebow somewhere in the second half of the season once we are eliminated from playoff contention. If I had to guess, that's what I think will happen.

I'm excited to see the team in person tomorrow with the fam'

[Jsteve01]

A Qb he couldnt trust? What? lol

Dude, after his absolute meltdown against AZ, they resigned his ass to a big contract!!! :lol:

come one north, let's continue this...catch up

[Northman]

come one north, let's continue this...catch up

No. Im having too much fun laughing. Not at you, with you. Plus, my ADD is kicking in and there are too many threads i must attend too. At the end of the day we agree to disagree. My post with that article pretty much sums up how i perceive Fox to be. The fact he has only made one SB and is 78-74-0 lifetime doesnt scream out "success" to me. While i hope for the best until we get a real QB in place i think its going to be the same ol, same ol.

[Jsteve01]

No. Im having too much fun laughing. Not at you, with you. Plus, my ADD is kicking in and there are too many threads i must attend too. At the end of the day we agree to disagree. My post with that article pretty much sums up how i perceive Fox to be. The fact he has only made one SB and is 78-74-0 lifetime doesnt scream out "success" to me. While i hope for the best until we get a real QB in place i think its going to be the same ol, same ol.

add? lmao I have like 15 windows open on my computer...i think I just replied to a thread only it was in an excel spreadsheet...good multi tasker Im not.

[Northman]

add? lmao I have like 15 windows open on my computer...i think I just replied to a thread only it was in an excel spreadsheet...good multi tasker Im not.

Your doing better than i would. If i had 15 windows open right now my computer would crash. Its got a personal vendetta against me, i know it.

[Cugel]

John Clayton said on 103.4 the Fan that he thinks that IF some QB were injured during the season then that team might be desperate enough to give the Broncos a #2 pick for Orton.

I don't buy it for a second. The timing would have to be very fortuitous.

If Orton starts the season (a given) then he'd have to fail before the Broncos would be willing to deal him.

So, the injury would have to happen AFTER Orton proves he can't do the job -- somewhere around the middle of the season? Then would the other team want him?

If so, is some team going to go out somewhere around week 7 or 8 and grab a QB? Maybe, but it's a long-shot. It's tough to just come in and master a new offensive scheme in the middle of the season, so how effective would he be anyway?

I think this is a wild scenario that is very improbable.

Most likely Orton starts, and then he either keeps his starting job, or winds up being benched depending on how he does.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't necessarily believe the broncos have to fail before we trade him. The Broncos know that the best scenario is to get SOMETHING for Orton while they can. I just don't believe they sign him to a lng-term deal.

I think the best chance to trade him is during or right after pre-season, and I believe it very well could happen. Hasselbeck gets hurt, you never know.

[Cugel]

I don't necessarily believe the broncos have to fail before we trade him. The Broncos know that the best scenario is to get SOMETHING for Orton while they can. I just don't believe they sign him to a lng-term deal.

I think the best chance to trade him is during or right after pre-season, and I believe it very well could happen. Hasselbeck gets hurt, you never know.

Well, of COURSE they won't sign him to a long-term deal UNLESS Fox is convinced after the season that he is the "Broncos QB of the future." He'd have to have a pretty good season before that would happen!

As for trading him, the peak of the market has already passed. Seattle and a couple of other teams wanting QBs had Orton as their 2nd choice. Hence no deal got done.

But, the recent lack of performance by Tim Tebow seems to have changed everything. Right now there's no way they yank the rug out from under the team by trading their starting QB.

That's how you would get a TOTAL team mutiny. This isn't baseball where they trade guys. Football you're not supposed to trade a player in the middle of the season.

"You go to war with the guys in the locker room."

That kind of thing. Pre-season is for trades. The only reason to make a trade during the regular season is if your team is out of it and the other team desperately needs a QB because of injury. But, if that happens expect the team to just give up at that point.

If Orton were not the starter when he was traded it wouldn't be so bad. But, they'd still be on the hook for most of his $9 million salary so that wouldn't be that great a deal.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think its going to be Fox that determines the future of Orton. I think that will be Elway, and I already feel very confident that Elway won't sign Orton to a long -term contract.

[Cugel]

What about Mcnabb last year, Vince Young....

Its not all about money, although it is a big factor.

Neither of those applies. Teams would hold onto a player IF they were going to take a big cap hit for trading/cutting him.

Also they would keep a rookie who is disappointing, but still under his rookie contract (like Vince Young) -- although the Titans got RID of Young didn't they?

This factor will possibly keep Tebow in a Broncos uniform for the next two years even if he is never made the Broncos starter. Just because he's cheap and he MIGHT come in handy.

That is NOT the same as paying a veteran QB $9 million to sit on the bench.

[NightTerror218]

I don't think its going to be Fox that determines the future of Orton. I think that will be Elway, and I already feel very confident that Elway won't sign Orton to a long -term contract.

I have not seen that overwhelming support for Orton

I see either they play Orton for best record , and try to draft a QB

bench him 3/4 way through season to see what they have in Tebow, and then draft a QB

Or Tebow shines and Orton is cut/traded mid season and we play Tebow out

[Ravage!!!]

If Orton were not the starter when he was traded it wouldn't be so bad. But, they'd still be on the hook for most of his $9 million salary so that wouldn't be that great a deal.

We are paying him no matter what..whether he's here playing poorly, sitting on the sidelines, or being traded away.

But it's hard to add value to a player when he's holding the clip-board during practices.

I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I would say that if there IS a chance to trade him this pre-season, the chances go better if Orton is working with the 1st team rather than being a back-up. Certainly adds value.

[Cugel]

There are a bunch of other reasons why Orton is going to be the starter that were pointed out by 103.4 the Fan this afternoon:

a. Avoiding the Bubby Brister "back in the day" controversy (for you teens Brister "called out Mike Shanahan" saying that "back in the day" in the old west people settled disputes like this man to man, implying he'd like to fight Shanahan.

This divided the team with some veterans wanting Brister to start and other players wanting Grieses. Result 6-10.

b. Orton himself will be a locker-room cancer if he's not named the starter. He barely tolerated being benched last year for 4 games -- despite having a 3-9 record. He made it abundantly clear that he wants either to start or be traded. He thinks he's going to start.

If he suddenly isn't starting at the end of the pre-season it will be an explosion just like Brister when Griese was unexpectedly named the starter before game 1.

c. Even if Orton were happy to pocket his $554,000 per game and be supportive; it's still a "QB controversy". How long before Tebow struggles in his first full season as a starter?

That's virtually guaranteed. Then what? Locker-room dissent over who should start. Some veterans want Orton, some guys want Tebow. Not a good scene.

Mike & Mike pointed this out this afternoon on the radio. Elway and Fox are new and trying to get the team pulling in the same direction. They can't have a bunch of players unhappy and dissenting from their decisions right away.

They have to name the starter and stick to him until it's clear that he's failed. And if that starter is Tebow, then they need to cut Orton or trade him immediately. The sooner the better.

No locker-room cancer (which he would be even if he didn't want to be).

[NightTerror218]

There are a bunch of other reasons why Orton is going to be the starter that were pointed out by 103.4 the Fan this afternoon:

a. Avoiding the Bubby Brister "back in the day" controversy (for you teens Brister "called out Mike Shanahan" saying that "back in the day" in the old west people settled disputes like this man to man, implying he'd like to fight Shanahan.

This divided the team with some veterans wanting Brister to start and other players wanting Grieses. Result 6-10.

b. Orton himself will be a locker-room cancer if he's not named the starter. He barely tolerated being benched last year for 4 games -- despite having a 3-9 record. He made it abundantly clear that he wants either to start or be traded. He thinks he's going to start.

If he suddenly isn't starting at the end of the pre-season it will be an explosion just like Brister when Griese was unexpectedly named the starter before game 1.

c. Even if Orton were happy to pocket his $554,000 per game and be supportive; it's still a "QB controversy". How long before Tebow struggles in his first full season as a starter?

That's virtually guaranteed. Then what? Locker-room dissent over who should start. Some veterans want Orton, some guys want Tebow. Not a good scene.

Mike & Mike pointed this out this afternoon on the radio. Elway and Fox are new and trying to get the team pulling in the same direction. They can't have a bunch of players unhappy and dissenting from their decisions right away.

They have to name the starter and stick to him until it's clear that he's failed. And if that starter is Tebow, then they need to cut Orton or trade him immediately. The sooner the better.

No locker-room cancer (which he would be even if he didn't want to be).


Well if he doesnt want to sit on bench he should not have blocked Miami trade. Because there is a chance for him to be benched for Tebow. There were plenty of hints at it and only time will tell. He may have a lead right but give tebow the rock in a game and watch momentum swing.

[Cugel]

We are paying him no matter what..whether he's here playing poorly, sitting on the sidelines, or being traded away.

But it's hard to add value to a player when he's holding the clip-board during practices.

I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I would say that if there IS a chance to trade him this pre-season, the chances go better if Orton is working with the 1st team rather than being a back-up. Certainly adds value.

The Broncos wouldn't have to pay Orton another cent if they trade or cut him before the season. He's due a $1.5 million roster bonus if he's on the team game one.

He's in the last year of his contract so no dead cap hit (not that there would be a cap hit anyway because the new CBA permits teams to load dead cap space onto the 2010 unlimited cap).

[jlarsiii]

We are paying him no matter what..whether he's here playing poorly, sitting on the sidelines, or being traded away.

But it's hard to add value to a player when he's holding the clip-board during practices.

I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I would say that if there IS a chance to trade him this pre-season, the chances go better if Orton is working with the 1st team rather than being a back-up. Certainly adds value.

I think the pre-season trade for Orton is dead. There will not be a pre-season trade unless some team loses all of their QBs on the roster and will trade the farm for a replacement.

All teams would want any new QB to be there as early in the pre-season as possible to learn the new system and build chemistry with the offense. With no real offseason and only days until the first pre-season games start there is no time to bring in a new QB and get them up to speed. Each passing day makes it more remote so can we just drop the pretense of a pre-season trade. It isn't going to happen.

[Cugel]

Well if he doesnt want to sit on bench he should not have blocked Miami trade. Because there is a chance for him to be benched for Tebow. There were plenty of hints at it and only time will tell. He may have a lead right but give tebow the rock in a game and watch momentum swing.

He didn't "block the Miami trade." He simply refused to take a pay cut. Well, if Denver really wanted to deal him and get rid of his salary, they would have accepted the Dolphins offer of a 4th rounder instead of insisting on a 2nd.

And they could easily have reached a deal with the Dolphins to absorb some, but not all of Orton's salary.

It's not as if they have no leverage with Orton. They can say "take the deal or we'll cut you. Then we won't have to pay you anything."

He could demand to be released of course. But, he's STILL not going to get an $9 million contract from any other team and the Broncos wouldn't have to pay it, so unless he stays that's out.

[NightTerror218]

He didn't "block the Miami trade." He simply refused to take a pay cut. Well, if Denver really wanted to deal him and get rid of his salary, they would have accepted the Dolphins offer of a 4th rounder instead of insisting on a 2nd.

And they could easily have reached a deal with the Dolphins to absorb some, but not all of Orton's salary.

It's not as if they have no leverage with Orton. They can say "take the deal or we'll cut you. Then we won't have to pay you anything."

He could demand to be released of course. But, he's STILL not going to get an $9 million contract from any other team and the Broncos wouldn't have to pay it, so unless he stays that's out.



That is not what I heard about the trade....it was 3rd and they wanted to reconstruct his contract and Orton said no....hence stopping the trade.

[Cugel]

I think the pre-season trade for Orton is dead. There will not be a pre-season trade unless some team loses all of their QBs on the roster and will trade the farm for a replacement.

All teams would want any new QB to be there as early in the pre-season as possible to learn the new system and build chemistry with the offense. With no real offseason and only days until the first pre-season games start there is no time to bring in a new QB and get them up to speed. Each passing day makes it more remote so can we just drop the pretense of a pre-season trade. It isn't going to happen.

I've been arguing this all along! But the Tebowniacs just refuse to accept reality.

Orton is staying and he's going to be the starter game 1. Period. It's a done deal for at least 5 or 6 major reasons, which I've pointed out. :coffee:

[Cugel]

That is not what I heard about the trade....it was 3rd and they wanted to reconstruct his contract and Orton said no....hence stopping the trade.

They may have reached agreement with the Dolphins about compensation. That part is unclear because they haven't said and all the stuff is just speculation about what was offered. We don't really know.

They wanted to re-construct Orton's contract. ALL players who are traded re-do their contracts with the new team.

But they weren't offering Orton $9 million and he didn't want to take a pay-cut.

Well, if the Broncos really want him gone they just cut a deal with the Dolphins. The Dolphins pay him whatever they are willing to pay and Denver picks up the tab for the difference.

That way Orton still gets his money, the Broncos save some money (probably about $4-5 million which is nothing to sneeze at) and still get a 3rd or 4th round pick.

It wasn't that Orton "refused to re-do his contract." His contract is expiring in 2012. No team would sign him to a one year deal for $9 million. NOBODY.

And if he tried to play hardball the Broncos had the whip hand in that they don't have to pay him one penny if they don't want to! They can cut him anytime up to the end of the pre-season and save the $9 million.

Then Orton becomes a FA and finds that NOBODY wants to sign him so close to the start of the season and he out of work with NO PAY until 2012.

Even if the Dolphins still wanted him (dubious) they certainly wouldn't offer him any MORE than what he rejected before.

What really happened is that the Broncos got scared watching Tim Tebow and decided "no way can we go into the regular season with Tim as our starting QB. That way lies madness!" Then they stopped negotiations with everybody and pulled Orton off the table. :coffee:

[NightTerror218]

I've been arguing this all along! But the Tebowniacs just refuse to accept reality.

Orton is staying and he's going to be the starter game 1. Period. It's a done deal for at least 5 or 6 major reasons, which I've pointed out. :coffee:

Your 5 or 6 reason are because of MONEY....Fox doesnt care...he will start the best despite of the money.

[NorCalBronco7]

Neither of those applies. Teams would hold onto a player IF they were going to take a big cap hit for trading/cutting him.

Also they would keep a rookie who is disappointing, but still under his rookie contract (like Vince Young) -- although the Titans got RID of Young didn't they?

This factor will possibly keep Tebow in a Broncos uniform for the next two years even if he is never made the Broncos starter. Just because he's cheap and he MIGHT come in handy.

That is NOT the same as paying a veteran QB $9 million to sit on the bench.

If either Tebow or Quinn is percieved as a better player in Foxs eyes, they'll get the nod, regaurdless of contracts. You can call me niave, thats fine. I believe your perspective is narrow minded.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the pre-season trade for Orton is dead. There will not be a pre-season trade unless some team loses all of their QBs on the roster and will trade the farm for a replacement.

All teams would want any new QB to be there as early in the pre-season as possible to learn the new system and build chemistry with the offense. With no real offseason and only days until the first pre-season games start there is no time to bring in a new QB and get them up to speed. Each passing day makes it more remote so can we just drop the pretense of a pre-season trade. It isn't going to happen.

Ideally...yes. But I'm not talking ideal situations. Obviously if a team loses their starting QB, and they have a hopeful season, its very possible to have a trade partner during the pre-season. Every team runs the same routes, the QB just has to learn the terminology. We've seen QBs being traded one week, and playing the very next on MANY occasions in the NFL. Its not ideal, but it happens.

[Ravage!!!]

The Broncos wouldn't have to pay Orton another cent if they trade or cut him before the season. He's due a $1.5 million roster bonus if he's on the team game one.

He's in the last year of his contract so no dead cap hit (not that there would be a cap hit anyway because the new CBA permits teams to load dead cap space onto the 2010 unlimited cap).

I'm not a tebow dude..but you aren't making more sense than what I'm saying. The team is NOT going to play the lesser player purely based on the money he's earning since he is ALREADY being paid that no matter what. PERIOD. If he's not doing the job and gets beat out by Tebow, Orton WILL sit despite his large pay. We've seen TOP picks in the NFL SIT because the player behind them is the better player. Quit telling yourself that Orton is going to be the starter based on the money. I don't CARE if they will pay him another 1.5 million, that has NOTHING to do with what I'm saying.

[NorCalBronco7]

I'm not a tebow dude..but you aren't making more sense than what I'm saying. The team is NOT going to play the lesser player purely based on the money he's earning since he is ALREADY being paid that no matter what. PERIOD. If he's not doing the job and gets beat out by Tebow, Orton WILL sit despite his large pay. We've seen TOP picks in the NFL SIT because the player behind them is the better player. Quit telling yourself that Orton is going to be the starter based on the money. I don't CARE if they will pay him another 1.5 million, that has NOTHING to do with what I'm saying.

In all Cugels experts analysis, hes has yet to mention anything about the Qbs individual performance.

I guess Fox sets his depth chart based on salary alone. :coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee: :coffee: :coffee:



























:coffee:

[Lancane]

In all Cugels experts analysis, hes has yet to mention anything about the Qbs individual performance.

I guess Fox sets his depth chart based on salary alone.

Well I have a hard time believing he does it on performance or he'd certainly have been begging for a quarterback, any quarterback besides those currently on the roster.

;)

[NorCalBronco7]

Well I have a hard time believing he does it on performance or he'd certainly have been begging for a quarterback, any quarterback besides those currently on the roster.

;)

Kyle Orton = Best pure passer EVAR

Tim Tebow = John Elway 7.0

[Lancane]

Kyle Orton = Best pure passer EVAR

Tim Tebow = John Elway 7.0

Drugs are bad mmmmmkay?

:lol:

[BroncoWave]

If Fox is going to be ultra conservative again in Denver, and wins, you won't hear 1 ounce of complaining from me.

It's just not winning with that is terrible to watch. At least with Shanahan/Cutler era I could count on an exciting game to watch.

Those three games with Tebow last year were exciting to watch as well.

[NightTerror218]

Those three games with Tebow last year were exciting to watch as well.

I though we had a chance to win all 3 while watching them....and then the end of the chargers game I was on the edge of my seat......it was some exciting football my friends :D

[xzn]

In my heart I want to see Tim Tebow become great :cool:, but I wouldn't bet money on it. Here's to hopin' :rolleyes:

The best thing for the Broncos would be for TT to win the job during games and over the rest of TC, starting at tomorrow's scrimmage. :salute:

GO BRONCOS!!! :defense:

[Cugel]

In all Cugels experts analysis, hes has yet to mention anything about the Qbs individual performance.

I guess Fox sets his depth chart based on salary alone.

You guys can pretend to be thick if you want. Or maybe that's the reality, I don't know.

Orton is going to be the starter because they think he's better than Tebow. How great do they think Orton is?

Well, we might learn that next year when they cut him or re-sign him to an extended contract.

But, the decision to KEEP Orton is based on Orton being the starter! When they decided they couldn't rely on Tebow they decided to keep Orton. And pay him.

That's what I'm saying. They are not going to keep him unless he's going to start. So at the time they decided to keep Orton and take him off the trade table, THAT was when they really decided to START Orton.

It was fish or cut bait time.

And all the crap about a QB "competition" is just that. Baring some miracle in the next few weeks, Orton will be the starter.

All my point ever was is, they are NOT going to pay a Guy that much money to sit there. They made the decision early and are just not announcing it because it will enrage the apparently endless stream of Tebow fans to know their hero isn't going to be starting. And they made the call without even giving Tebow "a chance." Not really.

So they go through the charade. It's not even dishonest because Orton really COULD play himself out of a job in the next two weeks if he looked REALLY, REALLY BAD out there. It's conceivable they will change their mind. But, unless he totally tanks he's in. In that case they will have to cut him.

Personally, I'd actually rather see Tebow start because of much the same reason as the rest of you. I'd like to see what he could do and we know what Orton can do. But that's not what's going to happen.

And no matter what polite noise you hear out of Dove Valley to fool the fans, Fox knows right this minute who his starter is going to be. He might not have told the players but it's a done deal.

As so does Pat Bowlen who will not be happy if he looks down onto the field from his suite and sees this guy in a baseball hat walking around the sideline and has to ask John Elway: "John explain to me again why I am paying Kyle Orton $9 million to stand there with a clip-board?" :coffee:

[Cugel]

Don't you guys think this selection process was somewhat biased against Tim Tebow from the start?

He's not really a traditional pocket passing QB. Could he be successful running the spread offense in the NFL? Well he did pretty amazingly in college with it. He looked pretty good in the last 4 games.

But, he's quite awkward trying to be a traditional 5-step or 7-step drop; play-action, read the progressions and hand the ball off or throw the outlet, type QB.

That's not who he is.

But, that's who NFL coaches all seem to want. So they set the criteria as "Tebow has to prove he can do it" (i.e. transition to a traditional type QB).

And then he apparently fails, by that standard. And so they go with Kyle Orton because he's better at that style of QBing. He has a higher completion percentage.

I don't think that Fox for a moment considered going to a spread offense as his base package and using Tebow in that as the starter.

I don't know. Maybe he's right and that could never be successful in the NFL. But, it sure looked pretty good against the Chargers last year didn't it? :coffee:

[LordTrychon]

Well, I think if you want to help Tebow progress, you have to work in a lot more pocket passing from the get-go. Once he really has a much better handle on that, then you can start to work in other things he excels at.

If you play to what's already his strength early on, he doesn't get the repetition needed and the opportunity to grow.

Yes, it definitely slants things in Orton's favor from the get-go... but I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people that think that Tebow shouldn't have to get the hang of pocket passing at all... I know Elway wants him to.

He won't learn it by not running it.

[Canmore]

If Tebow wants to play in this league he must be able to play from the pocket. Running around and extending plays is great but the bread and butter is in the pocket. He has to be good from there. If he can't do that, I don't see him making it in this league.

[BroncoStud]

You guys can pretend to be thick if you want. Or maybe that's the reality, I don't know.

Orton is going to be the starter because they think he's better than Tebow. How great do they think Orton is?

Well, we might learn that next year when they cut him or re-sign him to an extended contract.

But, the decision to KEEP Orton is based on Orton being the starter! When they decided they couldn't rely on Tebow they decided to keep Orton. And pay him.

That's what I'm saying. They are not going to keep him unless he's going to start. So at the time they decided to keep Orton and take him off the trade table, THAT was when they really decided to START Orton.

It was fish or cut bait time.

And all the crap about a QB "competition" is just that. Baring some miracle in the next few weeks, Orton will be the starter.

All my point ever was is, they are NOT going to pay a Guy that much money to sit there. They made the decision early and are just not announcing it because it will enrage the apparently endless stream of Tebow fans to know their hero isn't going to be starting. And they made the call without even giving Tebow "a chance." Not really.

So they go through the charade. It's not even dishonest because Orton really COULD play himself out of a job in the next two weeks if he looked REALLY, REALLY BAD out there. It's conceivable they will change their mind. But, unless he totally tanks he's in. In that case they will have to cut him.

Personally, I'd actually rather see Tebow start because of much the same reason as the rest of you. I'd like to see what he could do and we know what Orton can do. But that's not what's going to happen.

And no matter what polite noise you hear out of Dove Valley to fool the fans, Fox knows right this minute who his starter is going to be. He might not have told the players but it's a done deal.

As so does Pat Bowlen who will not be happy if he looks down onto the field from his suite and sees this guy in a baseball hat walking around the sideline and has to ask John Elway: "John explain to me again why I am paying Kyle Orton $9 million to stand there with a clip-board?" :coffee:

You're way off on this one. The front office tried to trade Orton the first chance they got. The problem is that McDaniels AND XANDERS, last year, gave Orton a $9 MILLION extension that essentially made it impossible to trade him.

Why would he take less money to play this year when he can sit on the bench here in Denver and earn that sort of money and get his free agency next year? He wouldn't.

Don't be mistaken, he was on the trading block minute one of trading period we just couldn't find a partner because his contract made it virtually impossible to renegotiate thanks to our brilliance LAST year.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I saw a lot of posts talking about $. How Orton would start no matter what based on his contract. IIRC, Tebow has roughly that same cap hit this year as Orton does.

It's stupid to pay both as starters so one of them should go. Orton isn't getting any better (and won't this year, his numbers will plummet in a run first offense and the only time he'll really get to air it out is when we're down big and in pressure situations, where he excels at proven suckitude) and has pretty much reached his "prime" as far as a QB goes.

If the Broncos want to pay both salaries, that's their right. I'm of the opinion that I keep the project with the high upside and dump the journeyman, all things being equal salary wise. It's worth it to me to have peace and focus in the locker room.

[topscribe]

I saw a lot of posts talking about $. How Orton would start no matter what based on his contract. IIRC, Tebow has roughly that same cap hit this year as Orton does.

It's stupid to pay both as starters so one of them should go. Orton isn't getting any better (and won't this year, his numbers will plummet in a run first offense and the only time he'll really get to air it out is when we're down big and in pressure situations, where he excels at proven suckitude) and has pretty much reached his "prime" as far as a QB goes.

If the Broncos want to pay both salaries, that's their right. I'm of the opinion that I keep the project with the high upside and dump the journeyman, all things being equal salary wise. It's worth it to me to have peace and focus in the locker room.

For that reason, I don't believe Fox will be comparing Orton's numbers with
last year's. That won't be the criterion as to whether Orton is getting better.
But I don't know why he wouldn't get better with a (hopefully) better running
game and some good pass-catching TEs this year, and likely a better O-line
because they have had time to gel.

But the Broncos have already paid a good portion of Kyle's salary. The bonus
is gone, plus about $2.9 million of salary is already committed, IIRC. So at this
point, I don't think it makes much of a financial difference whether or not they
keep Orton.

P.S. Looks as if you have accidentally duplicated your post, HP . . .

-----

[MileHiWildcat]

Fox did so well at Carolina.....(1-15 one season). I was shocked that he was hired at all.

[ladypanther]

"The quarterbacks are doing what has not been done around here in a long time. The philosophy in years past has been not to screw it up," Smith said. "And here it's put your foot down on the gas pedal and go hard. So I like that."

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/08/06/2510122/smith-happy-with-new-look.html#ixzz1ULoSeRUi

Fox lived for years off the Superbowl season. He never made changes and was not able to sustain back to back winning seasons. He did not buy into the role of the QB in today's game. For him to be successful in Denver, he has to be willing to change with the game. For your sake, hope you got the new version of Fox.

[ladypanther]

Fox did so well at Carolina.....(1-15 one season). I was shocked that he was hired at all.

The 1-15 season was the year before Fox got there. Last year he was 2-14.