Cris Collinsworth: Dont Count Tebow Out

[WARHORSE]

Love this article. Love it.



Do Not Count Tim Tebow Out Based on Practice, Wait Until the Fist Fight Starts

by Cris Collinsworth
Published on 08-04-2011 03:46 PM 0 Comments
One thing I have learned over the years is that there are a lot of guys who look great in practice. Every year with the Bengals they would bring in guys that were freakish athletes for camp. Every year I found myself saying, "how am I going to beat THAT GUY out?" Then we put on the pads and started hitting. Amazing what happens to most of these freaks when their body is put in harms way. They usually don't run 4.3 anymore, and their vertical goes from 40 inches to 2. Guys that could bench press 400 pounds suddenly can no longer lift their arms above their head reaching for a ball. It happens every year.

Read the rest here:

http://footballpros.com/content.php/1058-Do-Not-Count-Tim-Tebow-Out-Based-on-Practice-Wait-Until-the-Fist-Fight-Starts

[broncofaninfla]

Very good read. I'm ready to see some live game reps and see how each of them, Quinn included, produce or falter.

[rationalfan]

i do think collinsworth is one of the more objective commentators in football, but he is a gator. just saying.

[Agent of Orange]

This is what a lot of us have been saying. It's tackle football. They're not even allowed to tackle the QB now.

I really hope theyre doing this to hype up Orton for a trade because the seeming disregard for how its different when they start tackling is a little alarming.

[Davii]

Great read. Thank you. Personally, I am looking forward to the preseason games. How both qbs move the offense will tell the tale

[Tned]

Most of the pro-Tebow NFL analysts seem to take a view like Collinsworth. What was the line from Armageddon, something like, "wait, just give him another minute... Harry doesn't know how to fail."

All indications are that Tebow doesn't know how to fail. Will that be enough in the NFL? I don't know, but I sure would like to find out.

[WARHORSE]

Amazing how poised a QB can play and pass when they know the defenders cant drop them on their heads.

[Northman]

Article sums up what ive been saying the past few days.

[nevcraw]

Most of the pro-Tebow NFL analysts seem to take a view like Collinsworth. What was the line from Armageddon, something like, "wait, just give him another minute... Harry doesn't know how to fail."

All indications are that Tebow doesn't know how to fail. Will that be enough in the NFL? I don't know, but I sure would like to find out.

"I could stay awake just to hear you breathing

Watch you smile while you are sleeping

While you're far away and dreaming

I could spend my life in this sweet surrender

I could stay lost in this moment forever

Every moment spent with you

Is a moment I treasure

Don't wanna close my eyes

Don't wanna fall asleep

'Cause I'd miss you, baby

And I don't wanna miss a thing"

[TXBRONC]

i do think collinsworth is one of the more objective commentators in football, but he is a gator. just saying.

So you're saying that because Conllinsworth is a former Gator like Tebow he can't be objective? That would be irrational. :D

[underrated29]

Article sums up what ive been saying the past few days.



For real...its all I've been saying too. Wait until preseason and ore game number two and I bet Tebow will have narrowed the gap or taken it over.

Mayne we should become analysts north. I don't like collins anyway.

[broncosfannum24]

Its practice people, your always gonna look good in practice, look up ortons first two years in the league, he was no hot shot thats for sure, lets look at why everyone is hating on him, 50% completion rate, ok eli manning, micheal vick, donovan mcnabb, all had 50% or less

Arm motion, dan marino, jay cutler, brett favre, even matt ryan has a bit of a whind up in his motion, and phillip rivers shot puts the ball every play, i see no one critizing him.

Rookie year play, ok john elway you should be the first to defend tebow, your rookie year you threw for 7 tds and 16 or 15 ints, yea not so hot also it was in a 14 game season, tebow had 5 in 3 games matched up with 3ints, yea way better than elway did, i love elway for what he did for denver but dont turn into a hypocrite when your first year was god awful and you needed time time to learn, and so does tebow so support your damn players,

Cant throw the ball, uh hello he had one of the best qb ratings in college football history, cam newton does the exact same thing as tebow, but no criticizes him, but nope he goes first in draft with charcter issues, fun fact for ya, did you know tebows sopohmore year cam newton was tebows back up, so yea ill let you decide whos better

Just give the man a chance, cause you in everyday life wouldnt want someone giving up on you without giving you a chance so do the same for tebow

[Sinthor]

So you're saying that because Conllinsworth is a former Gator like Tebow he can't be objective? That would be irrational. :D

Yeah, because he's not making any wild claims like "he's a future Hall of Famer!" or "He'll never be able to play in the NFL!" he must be irrational. Saying basically, 'Let's just wait and see,' is just so wild. MUST be because he's a Gator...not because there's any actual logic to that position. :)

[Ravage!!!]

Its weird, because I keep hearing this and it makes me curious. If "everyone is going to look good in practice" (like Orton)..... then why hasn't Tebow lit it up? I mean, its just practice. He's not being pounded either. So how is it that the practices are easier for Orton, than they are for Tebow? :curious:

[Dzone]

^Tebow just turns it on when it is real football, thats all. He will probably always be subpar in practice. Tebow can handle getting pounded while Orton cant.

[Agent of Orange]

Its weird, because I keep hearing this and it makes me curious. If "everyone is going to look good in practice" (like Orton)..... then why hasn't Tebow lit it up? I mean, its just practice. He's not being pounded either. So how is it that the practices are easier for Orton, than they are for Tebow? :curious:

Irrelevant. They tackle QBs in games. This is kind of a pointless question since they tackle the QB in games.

[Davii]

Irrelevant. They tackle QBs in games. This is kind of a pointless question since they tackle the QB in games.

I think you took his question the wrong way... His point was they're playing under the same circumstances in practice, so why shouldn't Tim beat him out in practice as well?

To Rav: Here is what "everyone" thinks: Yes, Orton is a more polished quarterback. Yep, he looks great in practice. However, he looks terrible under pressure or away from canned situations. Although Tim Tebow looks worse in practice than Orton, his skills will not decline under pressure as Orton's will. As we all know the QB is going to get blitzed a lot then it makes more sense to have Tebow back there.

Personally, i'll wait and see in preseason before I decide who I would want to run our team.

[MOtorboat]

"He'll turn it on when it counts..."

Great, we have the Lakers starting at QB for us...of course he'd have to be starting...

[Juriga72]

"He'll turn it on when it counts..."

Great, we have the Lakers starting at QB for us...of course he'd have to be starting...

I'm beginning to wonder if this is part of the maturation process Tebow has to go thru. Its one thing to do something during practice, but as a professional he has to take that focused game day intensity TO the practice field. Without the dangers of "Possibly getting his head handed to him" on each play of practice SOME people lose that edge and look not as successful.

IMHO.. It might be that Tebow during practice is trying to "LOOK" the part too hard. He's been ripped apart for his throwing motion, so he's trying too ahrd to keep the "New" motion during practice. During the games he played, he's reverted back to his older looping throws.

[MOtorboat]

IMHO.. It might be that Tebow during practice is trying to "LOOK" the part too hard. He's been ripped apart for his throwing motion, so he's trying too ahrd to keep the "New" motion during practice. During the games he played, he's reverted back to his older looping throws.

Cecil Lammey has said that.

[Northman]

For real...its all I've been saying too. Wait until preseason and ore game number two and I bet Tebow will have narrowed the gap or taken it over.

Mayne we should become analysts north. I don't like collins anyway.

I hear ya man, guys like Collins may have played the game at a higher level but they are right/wrong just as much as we are on this board. We could do no worse quite honestly. :lol:

[Northman]

Its weird, because I keep hearing this and it makes me curious. If "everyone is going to look good in practice" (like Orton)..... then why hasn't Tebow lit it up? I mean, its just practice. He's not being pounded either. So how is it that the practices are easier for Orton, than they are for Tebow? :curious:


^Tebow just turns it on when it is real football, thats all. He will probably always be subpar in practice. Tebow can handle getting pounded while Orton cant.

I think its just experience really. Orton is used to dealing with multiple schemes/cordinators and Tebow is just learning how to adjust.

[MOtorboat]

I think its just experience really. Orton is used to dealing with multiple schemes/cordinators and Tebow is just learning how to throw like a quarterback.

Make said change, and I'd agree with you...maybe...

:elefant:

[Northman]

Make said change, and I'd agree with you...maybe...

:elefant:

Well, you wont get any arguement out of me that Tim needs work. Ive never denied that but the only way you learn is by gametime experience. Give him a year to see if he can get it, if not, move on to another QB. Orton isnt going to win any SB this year so why not take our lumps now.

[Juriga72]

Cecil Lammey has said that.

I wonder then if that 6" field between his ears is going to kill his chances here.

[MOtorboat]

Well, you wont get any arguement out of me that Tim needs work. Ive never denied that but the only way you learn is by gametime experience. Give him a year to see if he can get it, if not, move on to another QB. Orton isnt going to win any SB this year so why not take our lumps now.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about Tebow as a quarterback.

[Juriga72]

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about Tebow as a quarterback.

The NFL sideline is littered with "Should have been's" or "Never were's"...ALL the talent in the world means squat if you cannot show the coaches you can do it every single play.

Hell.... Look at Cutler. He can throw a ball into a 1' square from 45 yards away thru 3 defenders..... then he hits the D-lineman dropping back into coverage right between the NUMB-ers.

[MOtorboat]

Well Skip Bayless just said he would take Tim Tebow No. 1 overall. So we got that going for us.

[Juriga72]

Well Skip Bayless just said he would take Tim Tebow No. 1 overall. So we got that going for us.

As his golfing partner in the Pro-Am shotgun next year in Tahoe?

[Jsteve01]

The NFL sideline is littered with "Should have been's" or "Never were's"...ALL the talent in the world means squat if you cannot show the coaches you can do it every single play.

Hell.... Look at Cutler. He can throw a ball into a 1' square from 45 yards away thru 3 defenders..... then he hits the D-lineman dropping back into coverage right between the NUMB-ers.

just ask my customers about that one j/k

For me it's never been the talent factor, it's if he can get over the robotic ball to ear motion...shorten the release naturally and still maintain some sort of accuracy.

I truly deep down inside think he can, but if he can't the old draw it up in the dirt stuff and having 3 designed boots per drive just wont work for a whole season

The thing that's been interesting for me is seeing a fire from Orton that we've never really seen before. I mean I don't think the guy's ever had to compete this way and from the outside looking in it seems to have brought out something new. I really think this open competition has been great for all parties.

In Chicago he knew he was the backup, his first and second year here it didn't take long to see who the starter was. The clamor for Tebow seems to have brought out a little fight in the normally stoic Orton.

[Jsteve01]

Well Skip Bayless just said he would take Tim Tebow No. 1 overall. So we got that going for us.

Bayless is worse than Woodrow...you wanna talk about hyperbole. That guy has it down to a PhD

[BroncoJoe]

Love this part of the article:


But I do know this, anybody who dismisses Tim Tebow because Kyle Orton throws the ball better in practice, had better wait until the fist fight starts. Then, and only then, will I start judging Tim Tebow's performance.

[lgenf]

I just can't wait for GAMES

this practice debate is killing me, we all know what Orton brings to the table, we watched it for two years now and its not great

Now I know its not ALL HIS FAULT - but some of it IS HIS FAULT

and I truly believe this in my heart, if TT had those same two years back to QB the team I do think our record is better with him at QB than Orton - not going to the playoffs better, but better and getting experience that he may not get with the spotlight turned up so high on this qb debate

[Cugel]

I'm going to say it: I'm writing Tim Tebow off before the season starts.

Here's why.

It's pretty clear that Tebow is what he was last year -- a guy who does well in the spread offense and can run the ball but isn't a pocket passer. His passes get batted down at the LOS all too often because of his un-orthodox throwing motion.

That gives the Broncos two choices:
a. Go with Tebow and just deal with his strengths and weaknesses and design the offense around them. They could have chosen to do that.
b. Go with Orton because he's the more traditional passer and Fox is a traditional conservative coach.

Two weeks ago Tebow was the presumptive starter. Now he's benched in favor of Orton who was trade bait two weeks ago. What happened?

Orton got into camp and started hitting his WRs. Tebow got into camp and started missing.

But, it goes WAY past a few batted balls in training camp. Tebow is never going to be an orthodox QB. But, that's EXACTLY what Fox wants.

As one commentator put it: "we really are back in the Dan Reeves era." Fox wants a guy like Jake Delhomme who will throw the short pass with accuracy and hand the ball off to the RBs and then rely on the defense.

That's who he is and how he's always coached. And after all these years in the league he's not going to change.

I just don't see Tebow ever being able to satisfy him. He's always going to PREFER an un-exciting veteran "game manager."

Can any of you seriously imagine Fox going to a Wild-cat as his base offense? Seriously? :coffee:

But that's exactly what they would do if they wanted to maximize Tebow's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

I just see Tebow sitting on the bench this season and maybe being brought in inside the 20 if the Broncos are having trouble getting into the end-zone.

I foresee a lot of frustrated fans screaming "bring in Tebow!" while Kyle Orton gains 6 yards in 3 plays from the 19 yard line. And then watching the FG unit trot onto the field. :coffee:

[BroncoStud]

So when has ORTON had success outside of a spread offense? His numbers in a traditional offense are below average. He hasn't had success in anything but a spread going back to Purdue.

If you're going to bash Tebow for it then go ahead and bash Orton as well, because he suffers from the same problem. The difference is that Orton is a 7 year vet and Tebow is a 2nd year player who got no reps during the season last year and missed camps this year because of the lockout.

Fine though, if both the 1 and 2 are system QBs then give us Quinn, let him have a shot. According to most he is performing on the same level as Orton but has a stronger arm and is more mobile. Give him a chance.

[Nomad]

Great read. Thank you. Personally, I am looking forward to the preseason games. How both qbs move the offense will tell the tale


Most of the pro-Tebow NFL analysts seem to take a view like Collinsworth. What was the line from Armageddon, something like, "wait, just give him another minute... Harry doesn't know how to fail."

All indications are that Tebow doesn't know how to fail. Will that be enough in the NFL? I don't know, but I sure would like to find out.

I'm with you guys. I want to see and would like to find out from on the field in games then it'll be "it's only preseason" whether he does good or bad:lol:.

And if you guys who say he sucks and say he's not an NFL QB are proven right, then I'll buy you all cookies and give you all gold stars for being right......you can buy your own milk:D!!

[Nomad]

Bayless is worse than Woodrow...you wanna talk about hyperbole. That guy has it down to a PhD

Yes, Bayless would love to be Tebow's jockstrap!!

[Jsteve01]

I still think Brady Quinn is the dark horse in this whole scenario. Bigger arm than either of them...more athletic than Orton, better passer than Tebow.

let flaming commence

[Lancane]

I'm going to say it: I'm writing Tim Tebow off before the season starts.

Here's why.

It's pretty clear that Tebow is what he was last year -- a guy who does well in the spread offense and can run the ball but isn't a pocket passer. His passes get batted down at the LOS all too often because of his un-orthodox throwing motion.

That gives the Broncos two choices:
a. Go with Tebow and just deal with his strengths and weaknesses and design the offense around them. They could have chosen to do that.
b. Go with Orton because he's the more traditional passer and Fox is a traditional conservative coach.

Two weeks ago Tebow was the presumptive starter. Now he's benched in favor of Orton who was trade bait two weeks ago. What happened?

Orton got into camp and started hitting his WRs. Tebow got into camp and started missing.

But, it goes WAY past a few batted balls in training camp. Tebow is never going to be an orthodox QB. But, that's EXACTLY what Fox wants.

As one commentator put it: "we really are back in the Dan Reeves era." Fox wants a guy like Jake Delhomme who will throw the short pass with accuracy and hand the ball off to the RBs and then rely on the defense.

That's who he is and how he's always coached. And after all these years in the league he's not going to change.

I just don't see Tebow ever being able to satisfy him. He's always going to PREFER an un-exciting veteran "game manager."

Can any of you seriously imagine Fox going to a Wild-cat as his base offense? Seriously? :coffee:

But that's exactly what they would do if they wanted to maximize Tebow's strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

I just see Tebow sitting on the bench this season and maybe being brought in inside the 20 if the Broncos are having trouble getting into the end-zone.

I foresee a lot of frustrated fans screaming "bring in Tebow!" while Kyle Orton gains 6 yards in 3 plays from the 19 yard line. And then watching the FG unit trot onto the field. :coffee:

I agree and disagree with you Cugel - I completely agree that Fox should remind those old enough of Dan Reeves, he's a safe coach, the difference is that Reeves was offensive minded whilst of course Fox is defensive minded. But we'll see a lot of run-run-pass or run-pass-run. However, Fox wants another Elway, someone who can dump it out to tight ends through check downs or can in the same sense spread the field and throw the long ball. I expect to see the return of the pump-fake even, and we go and watch film of Delhomme you'll see an offense that will remind you of the old Broncos' under Reeves. But, Fox's system has parts of the pro-spread offense implemented in it, actually we should have an offense that very much looks like the Run & Gun mixed with the Pro-Spread this year, McCoy knows the offense Fox likes and also was learning from McDaniels.

With that said, you mentioned the spread...it would make perfect sense to start Tebow, obviously the spread offense is a system he knows and would help cover some of his short-comings. No, I believe that it has to be that he can not make the throws that Fox deems needed, that he can not spread the field sort-to-speak as Fox wants and that his accuracy is probably in question. I would love to see Tebow come out and look closer to Steve Young of San Fran, not the Steve Young of Tampa Bay...but remember it took Young years to actually find that form and took the help of Bill Walsh to do it. I just don't see Denver being that patient with his development. That's partially why I believe that Denver will be drafting a quarterback this year instead, they want a pro-ready quarterback who can make all the throws and do everything they need. So they go with Orton, the more polished quarterback...he's safe, he can make the passes asked of him and do what they need, even though he lacks the leadership, the drive and will to be more, he's sort of the safety-net right now.

[Lancane]

I still think Brady Quinn is the dark horse in this whole scenario. Bigger arm than either of them...more athletic than Orton, better passer than Tebow.

let flaming commence

I actually agree with you, I think Quinn is a dark horse, but sadly I feel he has only this year to prove as much. He's a fair combination of both quarterbacks, but coaches wherever he goes seem to not want to coach him for some reason or another.

[Jsteve01]

People always seem to forget that Delhomme has a little of the gun slinger in him. Shoot Fox let him throw for 3900 yards and 29 tds in their super bowl year...sound like a guy who's afraid to let rip?

[Lancane]

People always seem to forget that Delhomme has a little of the gun slinger in him. Shoot Fox let him throw for 3900 yards and 29 tds in their super bowl year...sound like a guy who's afraid to let rip?

Exactly, that's what Fox wants...he wants a strong armed, intelligent quarterback that can do it all. (As I said, he wants his own Elway)...

[NightTerror218]

My assumption....Tebow will be starting week 5 because Orton is going to be injured by Mathews pile driving him into the ground after packers game.....he get injured every season so I am hoping it happens earlier. Therefore we have Tebow starting and he screws up then Quinn can step in for his shot.

IMO Tebows head was filled up by the POS analysis and "experts' who said he was going to be starting and Orton gone. And when Orton decided to not roll over and fight for job and everyone turned on Tebow at the drop of a dime it affected him. I think he needs to settle down and work with QB coach and McCoy. But he needs to get reps too to improve.

[Ravage!!!]

My assumption....Tebow will be starting week 5 because Orton is going to be injured by Mathews pile driving him into the ground after packers game.....he get injured every season so I am hoping it happens earlier. Therefore we have Tebow starting and he screws up then Quinn can step in for his shot.



So you want Quinn as our starting QB??

[Ravage!!!]

Exactly, that's what Fox wants...he wants a strong armed, intelligent quarterback that can do it all. (As I said, he wants his own Elway)...

But who doesn't?

[NightTerror218]

So you want Quinn as our starting QB??

If he plays better then tebow then sure. But not permanent solution.

[Bugs Baloney]

I still think Brady Quinn is the dark horse in this whole scenario. Bigger arm than either of them...more athletic than Orton, better passer than Tebow.

let flaming commence

i'm with ya on that,

sorry EFX, anyone but Orton!

[Ravage!!!]

I still think Brady Quinn is the dark horse in this whole scenario. Bigger arm than either of them...more athletic than Orton, better passer than Tebow.

let flaming commence

I would flame, but I think the mere suggestion that Quinn is the best option is flaming enough.

[Northman]

So when has ORTON had success outside of a spread offense? H

No shit. :lol:

With a more conservative offense you still need a guy who can complete 3rd downs on a regular basis. And if Fox's "traditional" running game isnt clicking than what? Orton wont be the answer there.

[Northman]

I still think Brady Quinn is the dark horse in this whole scenario. Bigger arm than either of them...more athletic than Orton, better passer than Tebow.

let flaming commence

Well, the Dark Horse is way behind Orton as well and on par with Tebow who evidently is sucking it up so im not sure how much faith you have in that. A Dark Horse usually shines.

[Northman]

People always seem to forget that Delhomme has a little of the gun slinger in him. Shoot Fox let him throw for 3900 yards and 29 tds in their super bowl year...sound like a guy who's afraid to let rip?

Then he had what? 5 or 6 Ints vs Arizona couple of years ago at home in the playoffs?

[BroncoStud]

I would flame, but I think the mere suggestion that Quinn is the best option is flaming enough.

Why? He hasn't started a game yet... He showed flashes in Cleveland. He's apparently looked as good as Orton this camp...

Quinn might just surprise some people. I saw him look VERY good at times in Cleveland.

[xzn]

People keep saying that they know what Orton will do. :confused:

I call Bull$#!+

Even though I want Tebow to emerge as the starter, when he's earned it, I dismiss the idea that we already know what Orton can do. It is conceivable that a mature Orton can thrive with a solid run game and defense more than a first-time starter like he was in Chicago.

I think Fox will be smart to delay an official announcement until the league requires it before the season opener. Until then, every rep counts in practice, meetings and especially games.

Let it play out and may the best man win, period. :salute:

Can we please stop pretending that any of us have some certain knowledge of the future. It's kind of embarassing, really :listen:

[Northman]

People keep saying that they know what Orton will do. :confused:

I call Bull$#!+

Even though I want Tebow to emerge as the starter, when he's earned it, I dismiss the idea that we already know what Orton can do. It is conceivable that a mature Orton can thrive with a solid run game and defense more than a first-time starter like he was in Chicago.

I think Fox will be smart to delay an official announcement until the league requires it before the season opener. Until then, every rep counts in practice, meetings and especially games.

Let it play out and may the best man win, period. :salute:

Can we please stop pretending that any of us have some certain knowledge of the future. It's kind of embarassing, really :listen:

You'll get over it, its a message board. Dont take it so seriously.

[BroncoBowlby 88]

let the best player play. EFX knows more about these 3 QBS than most, definitely more than any of us. If Ortan gives us the best chance to win games, start him, if Tebow shows flashes of brilliance, start him, same with Quinn. None of this suck for Luck crap, play to win!

[Ravage!!!]

Why? He hasn't started a game yet... He showed flashes in Cleveland. He's apparently looked as good as Orton this camp...

Quinn might just surprise some people. I saw him look VERY good at times in Cleveland.

He's looked as good as Tebow, not Orton. Which, again, bothers me because it means that Tebow isn't even looking as good as Quinn. That's bothersome.

[Nomad]

You'll get over it, its a message board. Dont take it so seriously.

Yep, regardless who starts and how good we do, we'll still be watching or in my case trying to watch....I get to watch 2 games that I know of:lol:!

[xzn]

You'll get over it, its a message board. Dont take it so seriously.

Maybe sometime you'll get over yourself, with your condescending attitude.

[Northman]

Maybe sometime you'll get over yourself, with your condescending attitude.

Boo hoo.

[NightTerror218]

Yep, regardless who starts and how good we do, we'll still be watching or in my case trying to watch....I get to watch 2 games that I know of:lol:!

I dunno how many i will get to watch in AK, but I will get updates via phone....or else I will look an Northmans avatar :D

[Northman]

Yep, regardless who starts and how good we do, we'll still be watching or in my case trying to watch....I get to watch 2 games that I know of:lol:!

Indeed. Ive seen this team in tough times before (although the last couple of years takes the cake) and will continue to watch regardless. But got to love the whiny bitches who cant handle opinions on a messageboard. :lol:

[xzn]

Boo hoo.

Back to topic:

You think you know, but you have no idea.

It has to play out on the field.

Stop pretending like you have a crystal ball.

[Mike]

People keep saying that they know what Orton will do. :confused:

I call Bull$#!+

Even though I want Tebow to emerge as the starter, when he's earned it, I dismiss the idea that we already know what Orton can do. It is conceivable that a mature Orton can thrive with a solid run game and defense more than a first-time starter like he was in Chicago.

I think Fox will be smart to delay an official announcement until the league requires it before the season opener. Until then, every rep counts in practice, meetings and especially games.

Let it play out and may the best man win, period. :salute:

Can we please stop pretending that any of us have some certain knowledge of the future. It's kind of embarassing, really :listen:

You're right, 5 years as a pro QB, disatisfaction from two different team to the extent that they want to trade him, and the ire of both teams' fanbase is no way an indicative of his play, nor does it give any insight to what level of play he is capable of.

[Nomad]

I dunno how many i will get to watch in AK, but I will get updates via phone....or else I will look an Northmans avatar :D

Definitely the Monday Night game against the Raiders and on NFLN when the BRONCOS play the Jets.......other than that, we'll see! It'll be nice because the late games will be on at noon and early games come on at 9 am! Perhaps that new Ale House (soon to open) in Eagle River will have games, if not Dandaman from BM said the Peanut Farm has games and that's where BRONCO fans in Anchorage area meet up to watch!

Told my wife she could drop me off and go shopping while I watch the game there with them!:beer::D

[Northman]

Back to topic:

You think you know, but you have no idea.

It has to play out on the field.

Stop pretending like you have a crystal ball.

No one knows, thats why its called an OPINION. :lol:

[xzn]

Indeed. Ive seen this team in tough times before (although the last couple of years takes the cake) and will continue to watch regardless. But got to love the whiny bitches who cant handle opinions on a messageboard. :lol:

Nice use of name calling. I feel so intimidated I can barely type.

What you are doing is asserting your opinion as fact. That's BS in my opinion.

Sorry if you can't handle an opinion on a message board without resorting to bullying.

[Nomad]

Indeed. Ive seen this team in tough times before (although the last couple of years takes the cake) and will continue to watch regardless. But got to love the whiny bitches who cant handle opinions on a messageboard. :lol:

Every now and then I have my moments!!:drinking::D

[NightTerror218]

Definitely the Monday Night game against the Raiders and on NFLN when the BRONCOS play the Jets.......other than that, we'll see! It'll be nice because the late games will be on at noon and early games come on at 9 am! Perhaps that new Ale House (soon to open) in Eagle River will have games, if not Dandaman from BM said the Peanut Farm has games and that's where BRONCO fans in Anchorage area meet up to watch!

Told my wife she could drop me off and go shopping while I watch the game there with them!:beer::D


There is also the new sports bar in Eagle River near Taco Bell. My wife would prob be willing to watch game with me. The Ale House should be open by mid season :listen:

Peanut Farm seems to always be crowded and seems so far to drive :tsk:

[xzn]

You're right, 5 years as a pro QB, disatisfaction from two different team to the extent that they want to trade him, and the ire of both teams' fanbase is no way an indicative of his play, nor does it give any insight to what level of play he is capable of.

All I'm saying, Mike, is that it's not inconceivable that he has gotten better. I wouldn't bet on it, but he's on the roster and the team has to give him an honest look, as much as I'd like to see them just hand the keys to Tebow they are being smart to let it play out, may the best man win.

[Nomad]

There is also the new sports bar in Eagle River near Taco Bell. My wife would prob be willing to watch game with me. The Ale House should be open by mid season :listen:

Peanut Farm seems to always be crowded and seems so far to drive :tsk:

Never been to the Peanut Farm! If that Sports Bar has games (no smoking)then I'll go there.

I don't have to worry about my sons wanting to watch because they'll watch college football all day long but find the BRONCOS boring:lol: (:listen:they were glued to the tv during the 2005 season). Thanks for the info on the Ale House!

[WARHORSE]

Tebow is far from a finished product.


We dont know what Orton can do? We have about 8 years of tape on the man.


Rich Gannon made a big change in Oakland late in his career.


Can that happen with Ortoon?

I guess.


But once again, as per the article, practice is practice. Lets see how well they throw come game time when the live bullets are being fired.


Its NOT about looking pretty, its about getting a WIN.


Kyle had all kinds of passing yards between the 20s. But on third downs and in the redzone, he was anemic. Period.


At the same time, Tebow will be defensed now that teams have gametape of him.

While it may prove out that Fox decides to go with Ortoon after watching the preseason, it does not mean that Tebow is a bust, or that he cant play QB in the NFL.

How long did Rogers take to beat out Favre? Not the same situation, but everyone knew Tebow coming in needed work. Rivers and Brees?

Tebow was drafted high because of his huge immeasurables, his winning, his leadership but his game will need time and work to hone it. You need lots of practice and game reps for the things he needs to work on.


Does anyone think that a former NFL runningback speaking on Tebows errant passes and gametape breakdowns of the mistakes he made as a rookie with hardly any practice has made him a bust by saying he will never be an NFL quarterback?

Phhshhhh!


Merrill doesnt determine anything.


At least as Broncos fans, lets let Tebow work it out. If hes successful, then amen. If not, then amen.


But lets wait till the fight starts, cause my money says the kid will be starting sooner or later.:salute:

[NightTerror218]

Never been to the Peanut Farm! If that Sports Bar has games (no smoking)then I'll go there.

I don't have to worry about my sons wanting to watch because they'll watch college football all day long but find the BRONCOS boring:lol: (:listen:they were glued to the tv during the 2005 season). Thanks for the info on the Ale House!

I prefer to say in ER when possible during winter...avoid the snow driving with crazy military ditch divers....I wonder how many broncos get together at Peanut Farm....I have seen a lot of bronco fans around Anchorage.

[Northman]

Nice use of name calling. I feel so intimidated I can barely type.

What you are doing is asserting your opinion as fact. That's BS in my opinion.

Sorry if you can't handle an opinion on a message board without resorting to bullying.

You feel bullied? I thought you didnt feel intimidated? :lol:

[xzn]

You feel bullied? I thought you didnt feel intimidated? :lol:

Yeah, you got me tough guy I really feel so terrified :laugh:

Why can't you address the subject?

Your take has been sit Orton regardless of performance so we can see what Tim can do, based on the idea that you know with epistemological certainty that Orton will fail, so let's get it over with now.

I'm saying that I hope Tebow emerges but the team has to go through the process and start the player who gives us the best chance to win now.

[Northman]

Yeah, you got me tough guy I really feel so terrified :laugh:

Why can't you address the subject?

Your take has been sit Orton regardless of performance so we can see what Tim can do, based on the idea that you know with epistemological certainty that Orton will fail, so let's get it over with now.

I'm saying that I hope Tebow emerges but the team has to go through the process and start the player who gives us the best chance to win now.

And i say the opposite, which is play the young guy because a 8-8 season is pointless. Denver needs to figure out if Tebow is the future or not. We know what we have in Orton, Chicago knew what they had in Orton. He's not going to change into John Elway mate. Im willing as a fan to take the lumps now so that we can have a bright future. I dont want to win just one SB, i want to win a handful of them ala Pitt and NE or at the very least a shot at it. Wasting more time behind Orton isnt going to move this franchise forward. But, here's the rub. I dont care if you THINK that Orton is going to be better. Thats your opinion and im quite fine with it. Just dont come on here and complain when others feel differently. ;)

[xzn]

And i say the opposite, which is play the young guy because a 8-8 season is pointless. Denver needs to figure out if Tebow is the future or not. We know what we have in Orton, Chicago knew what they had in Orton. He's not going to change into John Elway mate. Im willing as a fan to take the lumps now so that we can have a bright future. I dont want to win just one SB, i want to win a handful of them ala Pitt and NE or at the very least a shot at it. Wasting more time behind Orton isnt going to move this franchise forward. But, here's the rub. I dont care if you THINK that Orton is going to be better. Thats your opinion and im quite fine with it. Just dont come on here and complain when others feel differently. ;)

North, thanks for a real reply. I hear what your saying about your BELIEF that Orton can't improve.

First, I'm not saying Orton will be better, I'm saying I don't know and neither do you. I am AGNOSTIC on how it will play out. So is the coaching staff, imo.

It has to play out. They can't just arbitrarily hand it to anyone. Tebow included.

DISCLAIMER: I'd be excited if the staff named Tebow starter :cool:

[NightTerror218]

North, thanks for a real reply. I hear what your saying about your BELIEF that Orton can't improve.

First, I'm not saying Orton will be better, I'm saying I don't know and neither do you. I am AGNOSTIC on how it will play out. So is the coaching staff, imo.

It has to play out. They can't just arbitrarily hand it to anyone. Tebow included.

DISCLAIMER: I'd be excited if the staff named Tebow starter :cool:

Tebow thought he was given the job, he needs to earn it and the preseason will be his shot. He needs to stand out and light it up. That or pray for a Orton injury to get some starts to show it.

[nevcraw]

And i say the opposite, which is play the young guy because a 8-8 season is pointless. Denver needs to figure out if Tebow is the future or not. We know what we have in Orton, Chicago knew what they had in Orton. He's not going to change into John Elway mate. Im willing as a fan to take the lumps now so that we can have a bright future. I dont want to win just one SB, i want to win a handful of them ala Pitt and NE or at the very least a shot at it. Wasting more time behind Orton isnt going to move this franchise forward. But, here's the rub. I dont care if you THINK that Orton is going to be better. Thats your opinion and im quite fine with it. Just dont come on here and complain when others feel differently. ;)

Agreed -

The Broncos "we are going to win every season mentality" is great on paper but it has caused the ground hog day version of a one legged man in ass kicking contest. The team is now dealing with a paitentless, restless fan base due to knee jerk talent drains and stuck watching a never ending parade of journeymen plod along to medicore results instead of taking the one time bullet with ground up development.
Who cares really if we win 2 more games with Kyle Orton if does not mean playoffs? 2 more wins during unispired play with young talent sitting on the bench (not getting better) is fruitless. The pay off with playing young talent is they will be better in the long run then soneone who won't even be on this team..

[NorCalBronco7]

Agreed -

The Broncos "we are going to win every season mentality" is great on paper but it has caused the ground hog day version of a one legged man in ass kicking contest. The team is now dealing with a paitentless, restless fan base due to knee jerk talent drains and stuck watching a never ending parade of journeymen plod along to medicore results instead of taking the one time bullet with ground up development.
Who cares really if we win 2 more games with Kyle Orton if does not mean playoffs? 2 more wins during unispired play with young talent sitting on the bench (not getting better) is fruitless. The pay off with playing young talent is they will be better in the long run then soneone who won't even be on this team..

What if those 2 games is the difference between the playoffs and not? In all these hypotheticals fans dish out, there is never a scenario where the playoffs are a possiblity. You assume that the playoffs are not a possiblity, and thus starting Orton makes no difference. John Foxs goal is the playoffs and he will do whatever gives the Broncos the best shot of getting there, whether you think its realistic or not.

[xzn]

What if those 2 games is the difference between the playoffs and not? In all these hypotheticals fans dish out, there is never a scenario where the playoffs are a possiblity. You assume that the playoffs are not a possiblity, and thus starting Orton makes no difference. John Foxs goal is the playoffs and he will do whatever gives the Broncos the best shot of getting there, whether you think its realistic or not.

Finally, I'm glad someone sees this.

1,000 posters will WANT 1,000 different things. All that matters is what will happen and, sadly, none of us knows what that will be: our best educated guesses notwithstanding.

John Fox will make the decision after hearing from everyone from Pat Bowlen, JAE, McCoy and even Gase.

What any of us think or want is irrelevant. But count me stunned if Fox goes with anyone other than the guy he thinks will help him win NOW.:defense:

[Jsteve01]

What if those 2 games is the difference between the playoffs and not? In all these hypotheticals fans dish out, there is never a scenario where the playoffs are a possiblity. You assume that the playoffs are not a possiblity, and thus starting Orton makes no difference. John Foxs goal is the playoffs and he will do whatever gives the Broncos the best shot of getting there, whether you think its realistic or not.

if I could double salute you I would. This isn't taking place in a vacuum and it's not Tecmo Bowl or Madden. In this scenario a coach whose last season was a disaster is taking the reigns of one of the top franchises in the history of the league. Jobs are on the line. His legacy is on the line. No one in that lockerroom or coaching staff is ok with taking a shot on a guy who hasn't earned it.

[Nomad]

Just curious, I don't play video games, but why do people refer to Madden or other football related video games when debating football?

[Ravage!!!]

True. But we aren't going to the playoffs.

[xzn]

if I could double salute you I would. This isn't taking place in a vacuum and it's not Tecmo Bowl or Madden. In this scenario a coach whose last season was a disaster is taking the reigns of one of the top franchises in the history of the league. Jobs are on the line. His legacy is on the line. No one in that lockerroom or coaching staff is ok with taking a shot on a guy who hasn't earned it.

Ding, ding, ding: Winner!

Champ, Elvis, Lloyd, Dawkins :defense: want to win, period. Not next year, now.

Fox is a veteran coach who will have the authority to make a final decision, even after Elway has had his say, and be accountable for it to both the FO and in the room.

[Northman]

What if those 2 games is the difference between the playoffs and not? In all these hypotheticals fans dish out, there is never a scenario where the playoffs are a possiblity. You assume that the playoffs are not a possiblity, and thus starting Orton makes no difference. John Foxs goal is the playoffs and he will do whatever gives the Broncos the best shot of getting there, whether you think its realistic or not.

Every coach has that goal, and im sure Bowlen has told Fox that he still expects to improve. However, new personnel, new scheme, and team chemistry will play an important factor and frankly the likelihood of making the playoffs is a very long shot. Especially in a more conservative offense behind a average QB.

[WARHORSE]

I still think Orton can be traded.


Lets see if any QBs drop.


If you lose your starter, and have a scrub on your bench, no one is going to come to the games.


These owners arent dumb.


If Henne goes down, or Moore, or some other teams QB, then we will have opportunity to move a man who will not be here next year, and get something in return.


Now, let me ask you something......you want a stadium full of happy, eager and hopeful fans, or do you want disgruntledness?


Happy fans? They buy stuff.

They buy LOTS of stuff.


Disgruntled fans?

They go home.


Early.




BroncosNation has let their feelings known, theres no doubt about it.

It came out last year.

If we can beat the TEXANS with Tebow, why cant we beat someone else?


Theres good reason EFX tried to trade Orton.


Orton has about two INTs and a loss before MileHigh revolts.

Might be unfair, but it is what it is.

Just my opium.:coffee:

[NorCalBronco7]

Every coach has that goal, and im sure Bowlen has told Fox that he still expects to improve. However, new personnel, new scheme, and team chemistry will play an important factor and frankly the likelihood of making the playoffs is a very long shot. Especially in a more conservative offense behind a average QB.

Frame it however you want. Thats what this forum is for. But Fox has one goal in mind....winning. Our perceptions mean nothing.

[Northman]

Frame it however you want. Thats what this forum is for. But Fox has one goal in mind....winning. Our perceptions mean nothing.

All very true mate, all very true.

[xzn]

War, are you saying that Fox is a puppet of the FO?

I'm with you on everything you're sayin' but it's Fox's call and he'll be judged on the results. Fan opinion won't be a factor except to the extent that Bowlen exerts any influence. That's never been Pat's M.O. so I think Fox will go with whichever of the three gives him a chance to win now.

[BroncoStud]

War, are you saying that Fox is a puppet of the FO?

I'm with you on everything you're sayin' but it's Fox's call and he'll be judged on the results. Fan opinion won't be a factor except to the extent that Bowlen exerts any influence. That's never been Pat's M.O. so I think Fox will go with whichever of the three gives him a chance to win now.

When the boos rain and the fan attendance drops like last year, changes will be made.

[nevcraw]

What if those 2 games is the difference between the playoffs and not? In all these hypotheticals fans dish out, there is never a scenario where the playoffs are a possiblity. You assume that the playoffs are not a possiblity, and thus starting Orton makes no difference. John Foxs goal is the playoffs and he will do whatever gives the Broncos the best shot of getting there, whether you think its realistic or not.

every coach has a eye for the playoffs.. The over used "win now".. I get it.. I doubt John Fox would say any different. John Fox is the third in a few years who that's been said about in Denver. not like he's unique.

I love winning and want and believe playoffs no matter what every year -- but this team has forsken talent development for this so called "win now" menatlity and it has back fired. Look at the roster. look at the depth. time to develop the young talent and that means exploring a raw but talented QB over the better for now journeyman who will walk next year without an undeserving long term contract.

[xzn]

Whether any of us like it or not, Fox will start the guy he thinks will give him the best chance to win. He'll also be willing to bench that guy if he's not getting the job done. At the end of the day his job is on the line and modern coaches don't have the luxury of a "Five Year Plan" like back in the day.

[Northman]

every coach has a eye for the playoffs.. The over used "win now".. I get it.. I doubt John Fox would say any different. John Fox is the third in a few years who that's been said about in Denver. not like he's unique.

I love winning and want and believe playoffs no matter what every year -- but this team has forsken talent development for this so called "win now" menatlity and it has back fired. Look at the roster. look at the depth. time to develop the young talent and that means exploring a raw but talented QB over the better for now journeyman who will walk next year without an undeserving long term contract.

You explain it so much better than I. :beer:

[NorCalBronco7]

every coach has a eye for the playoffs.. The over used "win now".. I get it.. I doubt John Fox would say any different. John Fox is the third in a few years who that's been said about in Denver. not like he's unique.

I love winning and want and believe playoffs no matter what every year -- but this team has forsken talent development for this so called "win now" menatlity and it has back fired. Look at the roster. look at the depth. time to develop the young talent and that means exploring a raw but talented QB over the better for now journeyman who will walk next year without an undeserving long term contract.

John Foxs playoff goal is more important to him than Tebows on field experience, or anythin else. You just dont get it.

[Lancane]

John Foxs playoff goal is more important to him than Tebows on field experience, or anythin else. You just dont get it.

Playoffs? Playoffs?

For some reason I'm hearing that in the back of my mind...thanks! :laugh:

But thinking about Orton and the term Playoffs is like a oxymoron, a real bad one that even thinking about gives off a migraine feel to them.

:D

[nevcraw]

John Foxs playoff goal is more important to him than Tebows on field experience, or anythin else. You just dont get it.

Ooooooh i get it. I just see "it" differently. try looking at this from a holitic pov and you may see my point.. or not.. doesn't bother me..

build a one playoff team or many --- we've seen win now aproach and it has failed, i would hope we are buildig for the long hall..

[Jsteve01]

Ooooooh i get it. I just see "it" differently. try looking at this from a holitic pov and you may see my point.. or not.. doesn't bother me..

build a one playoff team or many --- we've seen win now aproach and it has failed, i would hope we are buildig for the long hall..

pretty sure are draft and free agency philosophy indicate that there's a long term plan to bring in young talent.

And Im sorry but young talent is developed on the practice field and when they're ready to surpass the guy in front of them, they get their chance. It's that way from Pop Werner to the pro bowl.

[Dzone]

Is it cool to have the national Media Obsessed with this Tebow-Orton story?

[Lancane]

Is it cool to have the national Media Obsessed with this Tebow-Orton story?

No it's not good, because we had thought with McNumbnuts long gone that the circus antics would be gone with him.

The Cutler Debacle, The Hillis Trade and hitting on McDaniels Wife, Trading a First Round Pick for a Second Round Scrub, Trading for Brady Quinn, Drafting Tebow in the First Round, Spy-Gate II, Raging against the staff and players, Raging on national television and we could go on and on.

Though this is slightly less problematic, it' big enough that it's divided the fandom and probably the locker room. They caused a bigger headache then they wanted or maybe expected, that's why they should have just traded him or cut Orton, now the fans are up in arms and the first mistake will bring a storm of boos or worse. I know he's the best prepared quarterback, but let's face it, they verbally committed themselves to Tebow with declaring him the starter and then tore it down with this idiocy. It would have been best to not say shit to the media, so now the story will get worked from every angle and cause more angst...hell, when the players are telling the media they're confused by the ordeal, then there is something wrong.

[broncobryce]

every coach has a eye for the playoffs.. The over used "win now".. I get it.. I doubt John Fox would say any different. John Fox is the third in a few years who that's been said about in Denver. not like he's unique.

I love winning and want and believe playoffs no matter what every year -- but this team has forsken talent development for this so called "win now" menatlity and it has back fired. Look at the roster. look at the depth. time to develop the young talent and that means exploring a raw but talented QB over the better for now journeyman who will walk next year without an undeserving long term contract.

This. I'm tired of 8-8 7-9 year after year after year.

[broncobryce]

Ooooooh i get it. I just see "it" differently. try looking at this from a holitic pov and you may see my point.. or not.. doesn't bother me..

build a one playoff team or many --- we've seen win now aproach and it has failed, i would hope we are buildig for the long hall..

Some cannot see the forest through the trees.

[TXBRONC]

No shit. :lol:

With a more conservative offense you still need a guy who can complete 3rd downs on a regular basis. And if Fox's "traditional" running game isnt clicking than what? Orton wont be the answer there.

But once in high school Orton threw the ball 70 yards that's got to count for something. :D

[Lonestar]

I think its just experience really. Orton is used to dealing with multiple schemes/cordinators and Tebow is just learning how to adjust.

When I was reading this thread this was my first thought TEbow has just a few reps with the big boys in one TC and what sounds like less this year. Why because they seem to be pumping up a guy that has had most of the reps for years with the starters.

Orton is not a bad Qb like lots of folks want to believe, he just is not John.

Until TEbow wows some of those that hope for another John, well they will still be looking.

I could hive a rip about w-l this year as we would stand zero chance of winning in the playoffs. Therefore let's get all the kiddies as much work this year as we cam tonsee what we have and get them ready for Serious run next year after picking up some serious talent and depth with a top ten pick this coming yard.

[Lonestar]

Let me add not looking to tank the season and try for
Luck but I just do nit see us winning loads of games this year. I just want to see good effort out there ns if we lose to another better team I can live with that.

Just tired of losing trap games, or winning by the skin of our teeth and them getting our ass kicked in the playoffs.

[Ravage!!!]

"trap games" :lol: :lol:

The only teams that lost a "trap game" (its absurd to think there ar trap games in the NFL) last two years, are the ones WE beat

[Lonestar]

pretty sure are draft and free agency philosophy indicate that there's a long term plan to bring in young talent.

And Im sorry but young talent is developed on the practice field and when they're ready to surpass the guy in front of them, they get their chance. It's that way from Pop Werner to the pro bowl.

Yeah a concept the haters will not grasp. Do not try to change closed minds, it is a waste of time.

[Ravage!!!]

Orton is not a bad Qb like lots of folks want to believe, he just is not John.



Yeah, thats it. He's just not John Elway. Thats why most don't think he's more than average. If he were just a LITTLE bit better, then he would be pretty close, though. :shocked:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Ding, ding, ding: Winner!

Champ, Elvis, Lloyd, Dawkins :defense: want to win, period. Not next year, now.

Fox is a veteran coach who will have the authority to make a final decision, even after Elway has had his say, and be accountable for it to both the FO and in the room.

But once again, I ask. WHY DOES EVERYONE ASSUME ORTON GIVES THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN, NOW? Is it because he throws a prettier pass in practice? Folks should know better. I think our coaches do and our players will once we start playing other teams.

The offense with Tebow scored more PPG, was better on 3rd down, and had more rushing yards than it did with Orton at the helm.

[Lonestar]

People keep saying that they know what Orton will do. :confused:

I call Bull$#!+

Even though I want Tebow to emerge as the starter, when he's earned it, I dismiss the idea that we already know what Orton can do. It is conceivable that a mature Orton can thrive with a solid run game and defense more than a first-time starter like he was in Chicago.

I think Fox will be smart to delay an official announcement until the league requires it before the season opener. Until then, every rep counts in practice, meetings and especially games.

Let it play out and may the best man win, period. :salute:

Can we please stop pretending that any of us have some certain knowledge of the future. It's kind of embarassing, really :listen:

We are loaded with ARM chair GMs and HCs. each with their own pony in the show.. therefore they KNOW that X can't be the guy..

we still have a few that are pissed because their bromance with jay was broken up..

I've seen enough seasons of Donkey football to know what happens now happens..

Once we are through teh draft and FA it is all over but the shouting..

Many years we had really high expectations with the newbies on the sqaud, and rarely did they do enough to get us past saying in about game 4 or 5 wait till next year..

[Lonestar]

Yep, regardless who starts and how good we do, we'll still be watching or in my case trying to watch....I get to watch 2 games that I know of:lol:!

find a sports bar that has more than ONE SCREEN.. ahahahahahaha.

or maybe get direct tv or does it even work that far north?

Hope it gets better for you..:salute:

[Northman]

We are loaded with ARM chair GMs and HCs. each with their own pony in the show.. therefore they KNOW that X can't be the guy..

we still have a few that are pissed because their bromance with jay was broken up..

I've seen enough seasons of Donkey football to know what happens now happens..

Once we are through teh draft and FA it is all over but the shouting..

Many years we had really high expectations with the newbies on the sqaud, and rarely did they do enough to get us past saying in about game 4 or 5 wait till next year..

So says the guy with a bromance with McDaniels. Does your hypocrisy ever end Jr?

[Tned]

So says the guy with a bromance with McDaniels. Does your hypocrisy ever end Jr?

Or the fact that the ONLY reason he hates Jay is because he replaced the guy he had a deep, enduring bromance with, Mr. Plummer.

[Lonestar]

So says the guy with a bromance with McDaniels. Does your hypocrisy ever end Jr?

I liked the guy, I did not see evil in his every move.


I divorced myself from mikey years ago so it was an easier transition for me, than it was for many that thought he walked on water and that his superblow wins, well were all this doing....

It will take time for some to get over him, just like it is for John E... for others the fact that Josh scrapped all that they held dear of mikeys is just too much for them to process yet.

His upcoming failure and most likely firing in WAS, should get a few more of his mastermind wagon..
Josh was from the hated NE, about the only place that would have been worse is hiring someone from OAK, for many here..

I saw what Josh had planned here and thought it was good, BIgger OL, smarter faster and nasty.. SOmething we have lacked save a couple of imported safeties over the past decade..

SO Yes I liked the guy he had a few flaws that I did not like but at least had a plan to upgrade the starters as well as build via the draft..

But then a total rebuild is not done in one year like everyone thought he should be able to do it in..

SO now we have boring JOhn running the team, lets hope he can win some games and allow many of us to stay awake by passing every so often.. instead of run run run run run..

If he can upgrade the Defense over the next couple of years great it will be a great starting place for the next HC.

BAck to the program DO not count Tebow out.

I like the kid and frankly think he will work out nicely in the Johns run scheme, and if it is a good scheme then his passing will not be that much of a deal..

I like him as the next FQB in DEN.. But I'll guess unless Orton blows everyone's socks off in the next few games and NO other QB goes down somewhere He will be the starter on opening day..

WOuld love to get a high second or better for him to use in the next draft

[Northman]

I liked the guy, I did not see evil in his every move.

Actually, you dont see any problem in his move which is why you cant help yourself but bring him up in every thread along with your shanahan hate.


I divorced myself from mikey years ago so it was an easier transition for me, than it was for many that thought he walked on water and that his superblow wins, well were all this doing....This is all bullshit and you know it. No one has said it was all on him and if someone has, by all means post up examples here because i would like to see who claims that. And many people have acknowledged that Shanahan had lost his way and fired because of it. Dont make claims that are just flat out bullshit Jr, makes you look like a complete dope.


It will take time for some to get over him, just like it is for John E... for others the fact that Josh scrapped all that they held dear of mikeys is just too much for them to process yet.The fact that Josh brought drama on himself by getting in a pissing contest with a young QB who was a bright future for Denver is all on him. Nobody else was responsible for Josh's complete lack of understanding or his continued lying. People were glad that Josh was scrapping the crap that Mike called a defense out there, but then Josh failed to improve in that area all the while STILL getting into pissing contests with the DC who was making water into wine without all the ingredients. Again, no one to blame but Josh there, he wasnt a very good people person and it showed all the way to the end.


His upcoming failure and most likely firing in WAS, should get a few more of his mastermind wagon..
Josh was from the hated NE, about the only place that would have been worse is hiring someone from OAK, for many here..Again, more examples? Did you forget that Shanahan coached the Raiders or did that slip your mind again? No one cared that Josh came from NE, thats just a outright lie on your part, yet again. The fact that Josh sucked as a HC was his downfall. Apparently everyone understands that but you.


SO Yes I liked the guy he had a few flaws that I did not like but at least had a plan to upgrade the starters as well as build via the draft..He had a lot of flaws, not just a few. And while his "idea" of building through the draft and "philosophy" offense wise was great his execution was piss poor.


But then a total rebuild is not done in one year like everyone thought he should be able to do it in..Again, show me where people have said that a rebuild should be done in one year? Any examples or more BS spilling out of your mouth? The bottom line is when you rebuild you need something to show for it, a bit of PROGRESS which he was unable to do.


SO now we have boring JOhn running the team, lets hope he can win some games and allow many of us to stay awake by passing every so often.. instead of run run run run run..Ah, so now your bashing the new coach without even giving him a chance to see what he can do? Really? With your attitude i dont even know how you remain a Bronco fan. At least people gave McD the benefit of the doubt until he ****** it from the word go by lying about the Cutler trade. While people may have questions regarding the offseason moves at least they are willing to give Fox a chance. You've already written the guy off. lmao, again, your hypocrisy is showing.

[NorCalBronco7]

Ooooooh i get it. I just see "it" differently. try looking at this from a holitic pov and you may see my point.. or not.. doesn't bother me..

build a one playoff team or many --- we've seen win now aproach and it has failed, i would hope we are buildig for the long hall..

Obviously Fox hasnt build the team thus far with the intent of jepordizing future seasons at the expense of this year (if that was the case, Fairly would have been drafted). That was never my point and not what I meant by "win now". I used that term to descibe the approach this season at this point in time. Winning is the Broncos ulimate goal for the year.

In contex our our conversation, the specific issue is Tebow and whether he should start in light of a dimal outlook (by fans).


I love winning and want and believe playoffs no matter what every year -- but this team has forsken talent development for this so called "win now" menatlity and it has back fired. Look at the roster. look at the depth. time to develop the young talent and that means exploring a raw but talented QB over the better for now journeyman who will walk next year without an undeserving long term contract.

Theres no "buts" about it! The Broncos dont share in your despair. Nobodies thrown in the towel. Winning this year is the ultimate goal and the roster will reflect that.

The Broncos have drafted for the long haul, but if you think Fox is going to not field his best players at each position during TC, preseason, and the actual season, then your wrong.

Tebow hasnt been annointed "the franchise" like Elway, Manning, and Ryan were before they even hit the field when he wasnt even draft by Fox! Theres no rush for the Broncos to get Tebow on field experience if there better options available for this season, because winning in 2011 is the goal right now, not finding out if Tebow is franchise material.

[MileHiWildcat]

I went to watch the Broncos practice yesterday. Neckbeard looked terrible and Tebow did relatively well. For those that claim Orton is beating him out thus far - I say B.S. With the 1st teamers, against a first team D that (a) can't touch QB, and (b) are not at full speed because they don't want to get hurt - somehow Orton looks good. Tebow is playing against 2nd team defenders that are trying to win a job. Big difference.

[MileHiWildcat]

But once again, I ask. WHY DOES EVERYONE ASSUME ORTON GIVES THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN, NOW? Is it because he throws a prettier pass in practice? Folks should know better. I think our coaches do and our players will once we start playing other teams.

The offense with Tebow scored more PPG, was better on 3rd down, and had more rushing yards than it did with Orton at the helm.

Dude- stop muddying the water with FACTS. :elefant:

[Lonestar]

Actually, you dont see any problem in his move which is why you cant help yourself but bring him up in every thread along with your shanahan hate.

This is all bullshit and you know it. No one has said it was all on him and if someone has, by all means post up examples here because i would like to see who claims that. And many people have acknowledged that Shanahan had lost his way and fired because of it. Dont make claims that are just flat out bullshit Jr, makes you look like a complete dope.

The fact that Josh brought drama on himself by getting in a pissing contest with a young QB who was a bright future for Denver is all on him. Nobody else was responsible for Josh's complete lack of understanding or his continued lying. People were glad that Josh was scrapping the crap that Mike called a defense out there, but then Josh failed to improve in that area all the while STILL getting into pissing contests with the DC who was making water into wine without all the ingredients. Again, no one to blame but Josh there, he wasnt a very good people person and it showed all the way to the end.

Again, more examples? Did you forget that Shanahan coached the Raiders or did that slip your mind again? No one cared that Josh came from NE, thats just a outright lie on your part, yet again. The fact that Josh sucked as a HC was his downfall. Apparently everyone understands that but you.

He had a lot of flaws, not just a few. And while his "idea" of building through the draft and "philosophy" offense wise was great his execution was piss poor.

Again, show me where people have said that a rebuild should be done in one year? Any examples or more BS spilling out of your mouth? The bottom line is when you rebuild you need something to show for it, a bit of PROGRESS which he was unable to do.

Ah, so now your bashing the new coach without even giving him a chance to see what he can do? Really? With your attitude i dont even know how you remain a Bronco fan. At least people gave McD the benefit of the doubt until he ****** it from the word go by lying about the Cutler trade. While people may have questions regarding the offseason moves at least they are willing to give Fox a chance. You've already written the guy off. lmao, again, your hypocrisy is showing.
Sorry but did not read all of that..

You are wrong about Josh coming from NE.. Go back and read loads of posts right after he was hired..

lots of hate in some of those..

I think You are taking some of my post way to absolute..

I have never said everyone it is always some or a few.

YOU know that many hated him because he came from the Belicheck tree and NE..

That about where I stopped in your rant..

You know how I feel or if you have not listened to waht I have said your loss not mine..

[MileHiWildcat]

What is really crazy is that the media speaks of Orton as if he is the second coming of Joe Montana...wow

[MileHiWildcat]

I still think Brady Quinn is the dark horse in this whole scenario. Bigger arm than either of them...more athletic than Orton, better passer than Tebow.

let flaming commence

Brady Quinn = FAIL

[MileHiWildcat]

He's looked as good as Tebow, not Orton. Which, again, bothers me because it means that Tebow isn't even looking as good as Quinn. That's bothersome.

Oh give me a break. Tebow blows Quinn away in every aspect.

[Northman]

Sorry but did not read all of that..

You are wrong about Josh coming from NE.. Go back and read loads of posts right after he was hired..

lots of hate in some of those..

I think You are taking some of my post way to absolute..

I have never said everyone it is always some or a few.

YOU know that many hated him because he came from the Belicheck tree and NE..

That about where I stopped in your rant..

You know how I feel or if you have not listened to waht I have said your loss not mine..

No, many did not hate him. They admitted he wasnt their first choice as a HC (as some wanted Spag from NY) but they didnt hate him because he was NE. If anything, they were doubtful of him because of the success rate of other Qbs from the NE tree. But outright "hate" is bogus and you know it. Ive listened to what you said on here JR and the bottom line is you are flat out lying. Its embarrassing because i know deep down your a good dude but you have really fallen to new lows. And while i dont mind you defending McD on his behalf i cant stand the outright BS you insinuate and post on here daily regarding why people were dissatisfied with McD. The fact that you didnt read all of my post right there shows that you live in your own little vaccum and are blinded. I at least take the time to read your stuff no matter outrageous your claims are.

[DenBronx]

The difference is that Orton's not clutch.

How many times have we seen this? Orton drives the team down into the redzone only to stall on 3rd down. *punt*

We have already read the book on Orton. We know what he is and what he brings to the game. He has already reached his ceiling. He's not going to all of the sudden become Drew Brees or Aaron Rogers. Orton is amazing in practice and throws one of the best bubble screens you will ever see. Surround him with talent like Marshall, Llyod ect yeah maybe he will get you 3600 yards and 29 TD's but I credit that to the system.

He doesn't wow you or keep a defense honest at all. And when we need him most he fails. He's not clutch. He might start off the season hot with 6-0 then collapses when teams are fighting for playoff spots. Where did those awesome practices or preseason games against 2nd or 3rd team defenses go? It's like a switch goes off and tells him he can't do it.

Insert Tim Tebow.

Maybe he's not as polished as a passer but he wills himself and the whole team to victory. When pressure is on, that's when Tebow is at his best. I don't care about his akward throwing motion. I care about our offense moving the chains. We all saw what Tebow did to the #1 defense last year. He gave us hope. He took a misguided, disassembled and confused offense and gave us a chance to win. The only thing that Tim needs is playing time. It takes years sometimes for QB's to become great in the NFL but you can't teach them how to have heart and you can't teach them to be clutch.

Cecil Lammey said something very intersting today on the Ticket. They considered Orton the known. The NFL has 7 years worth of tape on Orton but only a couple of games on Kolb. They chose the unknown over the known simply because they didn't think Orton would ever bring them to a superbowl. Then what does that make Tebow? The unknown and Denver needs to insert the unknown so we can mover forward with this franchise.

[Lonestar]

No, many did not hate him. They admitted he wasnt their first choice as a HC (as some wanted Spag from NY) but they didnt hate him because he was NE. If anything, they were doubtful of him because of the success rate of other Qbs from the NE tree. But outright "hate" is bogus and you know it. Ive listened to what you said on here JR and the bottom line is you are flat out lying. Its embarrassing because i know deep down your a good dude but you have really fallen to new lows. And while i dont mind you defending McD on his behalf i cant stand the outright BS you insinuate and post on here daily regarding why people were dissatisfied with McD. The fact that you didnt read all of my post right there shows that you live in your own little vaccum and are blinded. I at least take the time to read your stuff no matter outrageous your claims are.

Well good for you. Glad you have the patience to read my stuff as I am ttlryingbnot to wate my time on reading the same old stuff all the time.


That sAid inknow what I have read in the past and do not need translations of how you heard it.

I did nit want Josh either I wanted a real defensive guy in here and Spags fit that bill. A real DL for a change is what I was seeing.

I thought much the same as a few did about Josh another O wizard all we have to do is fix the D and we would be contenders.

Then I listened to what he had to say and started to believe he could fix both.

But that had to start with the run scheme, he was talking my language bigger, faster and stronger on the LOS.
It made more sense than brining in someone that would try to keep the o the same and just fix the D.

I knew that no one could run mikeys playbook like he did so scrapping it made way more sense.

He brought in Nolan which at the time was a great move.

He made sense in all of his moves.

Then it started to go down hill with jay the whine baby.

That is where we are today. Lots of hate for anything Josh and no one knowing what is going on just lots of arm chair GMs

GoT to go

[Lonestar]

"How many times have we seen this? Orton drives the team down into the redzone only to stall on 3rd down. *punt*"

And how many tines have we had the same thing since the HOF group retired.

Why did Elam leave DEN as the leader in scored points?
it was not Pats. It was stall in the redzone kick a FG.

So is has not all been Orton only.

[Lonestar]

"How many times have we seen this? Orton drives the team down into the redzone only to stall on 3rd down. *punt*"

And how many tines have we had the same thing since the HOF group retired.

Why did Elam leave DEN as the leader in scored points?
it was not Pats. It was stall in the redzone kick a FG.

So it has not all been Orton only.

[Agent of Orange]

What is this thread supposed to be about again?

[ursamajor]

Kyle Orton looked like runny cat shyt his first few years in the league. He couldn't get higher that #3 on the depth chart. But he was young, and not every qb is going to set the world on fire in their first few years. Even Steve Young was painful to watch in Tampa Bay.

I think Tebow is going to be a beast. However, I don't think he needs to be rushed onto the field. Look at what a couple of years riding the pine and developing did for Rodgers.

I don't get the Tebow bashing.

[claymore]

I thinkl Rodgers was ready alot sooner than he was played. Favre was a doosh and wouldnt leave though.

[chazoe60]

Kyle Orton still looks like runny cat shit.

[Juriga72]

"How many times have we seen this? Orton drives the team down into the redzone only to stall on 3rd down. *punt*"

And how many tines have we had the same thing since the HOF group retired.

Why did Elam leave DEN as the leader in scored points?
it was not Pats. It was stall in the redzone kick a FG.

So is has not all been Orton only.

So I went and checked on your facts here....

37.3% of Ortons starts scored MORE than 21 pts (11/29)

51.6% Of Cutlers starts -MORE than 21 pts (19/37)

62.2% of Plummers starts scored MORE than 21pts (33-53)

65.4% of Grieses starts scored MORE than 21 pts (34-52)

[Northman]

I thinkl Rodgers was ready alot sooner than he was played. Favre was a doosh and wouldnt leave though.

Actually he wasnt. His first couple of games before becoming the starter were terrible. however, even if he had started he still would of turned out fine.

[TXBRONC]

You're right, 5 years as a pro QB, disatisfaction from two different team to the extent that they want to trade him, and the ire of both teams' fanbase is no way an indicative of his play, nor does it give any insight to what level of play he is capable of.

Even McDaniels wanted to kick him to the curb after '09.

[Juriga72]

I wanted to check and see just how many kickers "Led" their own teams in "All time scoring"... guess what

Even the simple minded must undserstand that in the HISTORY of the NFL, each and every "Top 20 Scoring Career leader".....

Is a kicker. Sucks to have yet another "Orton excuse" debunked...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/history/leaders/_/stat/points

[Lonestar]

I wanted to check and see just how many kickers "Led" their own teams in "All time scoring"... guess what

Even the simple minded must undserstand that in the HISTORY of the NFL, each and every "Top 20 Scoring Career leader".....

Is a kicker. Sucks to have yet another "Orton excuse" debunked...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/history/leaders/_/stat/points
Way to try to debunk a thought. Elam played how many years?
He lead our team in scoring because he kicked way more chip shot FGs than PATs.

For the simple Eason this team since the HOF players retired sucked in the redone

Everyone knows that every damned year mikeys presser he stated as one of the top issues was we have FO improve in the red zone.

Why you are so impressed with a guy that failed to lead his team to more than ONE playoff game after John is so far behind my comprehension.

How guy that put together teams that started fast and faded every single year late in the season can be so loved, is also beyond me. Especially the last few years. Wow.

This has zero to do with Josh. It is all to do with Mikey having to leave or better yet taking the personnel duties from him.

I love that he finally got a superbowl win for us but he did crap without John and his buds.

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[T.K.O.]

this team CAN win with orton....if we get solid play from both line ( which expect to be much improved) Orton can be just good enough to win a lot of games,remember he was like 29-12 as a starter (career) before the wheels completely fell of the organization.:salute:

[T.K.O.]

P.S. my siggy is pouting:shocked:

[vandammage13]

this team CAN win with orton....if we get solid play from both line ( which expect to be much improved) Orton can be just good enough to win a lot of games,remember he was like 29-12 as a starter (career) before the wheels completely fell of the organization.:salute:

Any average QB can win with a solid team around them. Orton had a pretty solid team around him for the most part during his Chicago days. 29-12 sounds pretty good, but how many playoff games are in that record? Oh that's right, 0....

Orton can give us a somewhat competitive season if the rest of the team is solid, but its going to take someone better to take that solid team over the top.

[SOCALORADO.]

Any average QB can win with a solid team around them. Orton had a pretty solid team around him for the most part during his Chicago days. 29-12 sounds pretty good, but how many playoff games are in that record? Oh that's right, 0....

Orton can give us a somewhat competitive season if the rest of the team is solid, but its going to take someone better to take that solid team over the top.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HkwsPgBOTUo/Tag9muRRFoI/AAAAAAAAAgE/R4mDnapEZLk/s1600/Matt+Barkley.jpeg

[MileHighCrew]

what happened to Andrew Luck? ^^^^

[Juriga72]

Way to try to debunk a thought. Elam played how many years?
He lead our team in scoring because he kicked way more chip shot FGs than PATs.

For the simple Eason this team since the HOF players retired sucked in the redone

Everyone knows that every damned year mikeys presser he stated as one of the top issues was we have FO improve in the red zone.

Why you are so impressed with a guy that failed to lead his team to more than ONE playoff game after John is so far behind my comprehension.

How guy that put together teams that started fast and faded every single year late in the season can be so loved, is also beyond me. Especially the last few years. Wow.

This has zero to do with Josh. It is all to do with Mikey having to leave or better yet taking the personnel duties from him.

I love that he finally got a superbowl win for us but he did crap without John and his buds.

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Uh really.... Hmmmmmm Ok lets try these facts shall we?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/2495/career

How funny that Jason Elam's career high in FG's would be with that crappy guy named Elway as his QB..damn he sucks

WOW..would you look at that...

[SOCALORADO.]

what happened to Andrew Luck? ^^^^

Its a Matt Barkley Monday.
Tommorow is Andrew Luck Tuesday.
Wed is "Please come out of retirement, John Elway day"
Thurs is "We are so screwed, but its Thursday, so who cares day"
Fri is "Northmans lets just get $h!tfaced day"

[vandammage13]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HkwsPgBOTUo/Tag9muRRFoI/AAAAAAAAAgE/R4mDnapEZLk/s1600/Matt+Barkley.jpeg

lol..