If the Broncos start TEBOW will u....

[BORDERLINE]

If he starts the season and plays bad. Does not put up the points we expect he would. Does not win a lot of games.

Would you hold EFX responsible for not starting K.O???

I say that to say this. Most Broncos fans want Tebow to start no matter what he does in "practice" we see a fire and a competitor that I personally don't see in Orton.

If Tebow does not play to our expectations then frankly I don't hold EFX responsible. They would have done there due diligence to him and to our fan base and we could all move on to a new QB with no hard feelings or resentment.

Would any of you feel the same???

[Juriga72]

Meh... IF he starts and falls on his face.. NOPE.

Now Let him lead the "NFL in Red Zone scoring..." and I have his back

[claymore]

I find the chances of him sucking in practice and then magically turning it on during a game highly unlikely.

I will be mad if EFX starts Tebow and he didnt get any 1st team reps.

[I Eat Staples]

I wouldn't blame EFX at all, I'd just look forward to getting a real QB next year and getting Tebow and his fanboys out of here.

[Ravage!!!]

Would any of you feel the same???

I wouldn't.. but would the players? They are the ones busting their butts in practice and on the field. Would they simply want to throw in a QB they know isn't the best option, just to 'see' if it works?

Afterall, as you said, this coaching staff and FO didn't draft Tebow, but they ARE left with the media circus that seems to follow it. They are left with the political outlash if they don't start him.

But this coaching staff wants/needs to win. Or at least improve. They need to put the best player on the field that helps them accomplish that task.

Now many of us feel that Tebow is that best option purely based on knowing that Orton is NOT the future of this team. However, the coaching staff isn't considered with the future of this team. They can't be. They know THEIR jobs are contengent on THIS season, and the now. They can only make decisions based on what they see in practice. Later on, during games, if/when they realize that ORton is just not getting it done..... then they will move to Tebow.

By then, Orton will have shown (again) that he isn't going to WIN you games.

[dogfish]

definitely not-- they didn't pick him or norton. . .


i'm going to hold them responsible for things they could control-- like not getting any good DLs to build around, or any good running backs, for example. . . they'll have plenty to answer for without the mcdumbass mistakes getting piled on. . .

[Juriga72]

I wouldn't blame EFX at all, I'd just look forward to getting a real QB next year and getting Tebow and his fanboys out of here.

Unlike those "Orton fan boys" who somehow think he's good....right?

[underrated29]

I would not blame the staff, but I would not like it if they just gave up on him after 3 starts and another season started....

Look at alex smith, david carr, vince young even. These guys all got more than 1 year and another 3 starts to prove they have it.



It comes back to the Josh Mcdaniels syndrome I have been talking about. Everyone just wants to give something a quick shot and if not get rid of it. You cant just keep getting rid of guys after 1-2 years. Eventually you need to develop talent otherwise if you dont and keep shipping players out you will end up with a team that has NO TALENT---kinda, exactly like what josh mcdaniels did to our club....


So now I wouldnt be mad unless they strait up get rid of him or just stash him in the cellar.

[Northman]

We wont be winning the division nor going to the playoffs so starting Tebow to see what he has only makes sense. Whether or not he becomes a FQB is a whole other story.

[DenBronx]

I didnt know who starts or not is up to a GM or VP?



Last time I checked it was up to a Head Coach.

[claymore]

I didnt know who starts or not is up to a GM or VP?



Last time I checked it was up to a Head Coach.

Even morso its up to the QB's. Tebow cannot outshine Orton.

[GEM]

After what those players put on the field the last couple of seasons...who gives a shit. It's not like their locker room camaraderie has gotten this team out of single digit wins lately.

[I Eat Staples]

Unlike those "Orton fan boys" who somehow think he's good....right?

How many of those do you see on this board? One or two? That's a pretty good sample of how many are out there - not many. Most people who want Orton to start just think he's the best QB we have, and that isn't saying much.

Tebow, on the other hand, has fans screaming that he's the savior of the franchise despite nearly every scout and expert agreeing that he isn't an NFL starter. Having Tebow on this team literally lowers the football IQ of the entire fanbase. If he were on another team, we'd probably be laughing at them.

[Juriga72]

After what those players put on the field the last couple of seasons...who gives a shit. It's not like their locker room camaraderie has gotten this team out of single digit wins lately.

But..."Kyle was on record pace for...(Insert magical value) before he got injured yet again"

[lgenf]

He deserves more than this year to develop

I truly believe he could be a 4 year project

last year he sat and watched, then when the time came, he got a chance and showed some good things that clearly he had learned since the draft

Then I think he deserves 3 years under center - this year will be an entire learning curve to try and catch up, then you get a full off season and another progression year full of starts and games as QB1 and another off season and year 4 becomes the make or break

if the FO would get behind him like that (or something close to it) I think at that point even the most diehard TT fans (myself included) would say, OK he got a fair shot and just can't cut it

anything short of that i think is selling it short - he got nothing last year, nothing this off season so to any normal team and season this would be like giving their project 3 years

and by all means, everyone called TT a project and not ready to walk into a huddle like Sam Bradford

[Juriga72]

How many of those do you see on this board? One or two? That's a pretty good sample of how many are out there - not many. Most people who want Orton to start just think he's the best QB we have, and that isn't saying much.

Tebow, on the other hand, has fans screaming that he's the savior of the franchise despite nearly every scout and expert agreeing that he isn't an NFL starter. Having Tebow on this team literally lowers the football IQ of the entire fanbase. If he were on another team, we'd probably be laughing at them.

I'd say its about even...

Except of course..we KNOW Orton sucks, always has...always will.

Tebow MIGHT suck...... maybe who knows tho. I dont see Tebow fans talking about his failures trying to distort them as "Leading the NFL IN:..."

[BORDERLINE]

C'mon guys seems like this Tebow/Orton/McD mess will continue to rip the fanbase.


The Broncos need to move on and playing Tebow this year Good or Bad seems to be the only way we could accomplish that. Picking second overall is close to as bad as it gets. let's just get it over with like pulling of a band-aid. If Tebow is the savior then i will go to church on sundays if not then hey it wasn't EFX pick and no ill feelings towards them.

[weazel]

How many of those do you see on this board? One or two? That's a pretty good sample of how many are out there - not many. Most people who want Orton to start just think he's the best QB we have, and that isn't saying much.

Tebow, on the other hand, has fans screaming that he's the savior of the franchise despite nearly every scout and expert agreeing that he isn't an NFL starter. Having Tebow on this team literally lowers the football IQ of the entire fanbase. If he were on another team, we'd probably be laughing at them.

I am weazel and I approve and endorse this message!

[I Eat Staples]

I'd say its about even...

Except of course..we KNOW Orton sucks, always has...always will.

Tebow MIGHT suck...... maybe who knows tho. I dont see Tebow fans talking about his failures trying to distort them as "Leading the NFL IN:..."

I don't have a problem starting Tebow since we aren't going to the playoffs anyway. If I'm right about him, his poor play will silence his fans and we can draft our next franchise QB. If I'm wrong (even though I'm never wrong) then he'll be great and we'll have our guy. Its a win win situation.

[BORDERLINE]

I don't have a problem starting Tebow since we aren't going to the playoffs anyway. If I'm right about him, his poor play will silence his fans and we can draft our next franchise QB. If I'm wrong (even though I'm never wrong) then he'll be great and we'll have our guy. Its a win win situation.

win win situations what's not to like about them.:elefant:

[Shananahan]

Then I think he deserves 3 years under center - this year will be an entire learning curve to try and catch up, then you get a full off season and another progression year full of starts and games as QB1 and another off season and year 4 becomes the make or break

if the FO would get behind him like that (or something close to it) I think at that point even the most diehard TT fans (myself included) would say, OK he got a fair shot and just can't cut it
Oh, so all you're asking for is complete devotion and every last chance possible for four years?

Sounds reasonable.

[Juriga72]

I don't have a problem starting Tebow since we aren't going to the playoffs anyway. If I'm right about him, his poor play will silence his fans and we can draft our next franchise QB. If I'm wrong (even though I'm never wrong) then he'll be great and we'll have our guy. Its a win win situation.

WHICH just kills me if they start Orton. He's a known.. know loser 11-19 for his record here.... He has to go 12-4 JUST to get to .500 .

He has to post the "Denver Bronco's best Record since 1999" JUST to become "Average"

[UrbanBounca]

I want Tebow to start because I've seen Orton play, and it's nothing impressive. Tebow is new, and change it what we need right now.

[Thnikkaman]

If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas

[chazoe60]

I think if we start Orton he will be replaced if we drop out of contention or have a losing streak.

The first game vs the Raiders will be a huge window into what this season holds. They were 50 points better than us last season let's see how the new team does.


Also remember, Orton has never finished an entire season as the starter.

[lgenf]

Oh, so all you're asking for is complete devotion and every last chance possible for four years?

Sounds reasonable.

nope 3 years

just like Stafford will get, Alex Smith will get, Bradford will get and pretty much every other QB that was ever drafted in the 1st round

if you think starting this year is going to either make or break him when he got no attention last year that is selling his chances short

the team looked like crap most of the year last year, and for the last 3 games the team played like they had something to prove, they played with life

I would like to see that for the next two years

[claymore]

nope 3 years

just like Stafford will get, Alex Smith will get, Bradford will get and pretty much every other QB that was ever drafted in the 1st round

if you think starting this year is going to either make or break him when he got no attention last year that is selling his chances short

the team looked like crap most of the year last year, and for the last 3 games the team played like they had something to prove, they played with life

I would like to see that for the next two years

Most QB's drafted in the first round can beat out the turd they are supposed to replace by the 2nd year. Blame Tebow. Its ALL on his shoulders.

[lgenf]

I'm looking at Tebow's stats from last year versus Orton

Orton
comp % 58.8
yds 3653
td 20
int 9

Tebow
comp % 50.0
yds 654
td 5 (with 6 more via rush)
int 3

that is a 7th year QB with what 6 years starting under his belt versus a rookie that got nothing for practice all last year until McD got fired

I think Tebow deserves at least 2 years of starting exp before the FO decides to go another direction

[claymore]

I'm looking at Tebow's stats from last year versus Orton

Orton
comp % 58.8
yds 3653
td 20
int 9

Tebow
comp % 50.0
yds 654
td 5 (with 6 more via rush)
int 3

that is a 7th year QB with what 6 years starting under his belt versus a rookie that got nothing for practice all last year until McD got fired

I think Tebow deserves at least 2 years of starting exp before the FO decides to go another direction

The more game film they have on Tebow the more those numbers will go south. Orton looked good for a minute too.

[SOCALORADO.]

http://www.sanjose.com/images/made/Luck_300_300_300_100.jpg
http://sports.cbsimg.net/u/photos/football/college/img13871622.jpg

[Jsteve01]

whoooah there clay

[jlarsiii]

He deserves more than this year to develop

I truly believe he could be a 4 year project

last year he sat and watched, then when the time came, he got a chance and showed some good things that clearly he had learned since the draft

Then I think he deserves 3 years under center - this year will be an entire learning curve to try and catch up, then you get a full off season and another progression year full of starts and games as QB1 and another off season and year 4 becomes the make or break

if the FO would get behind him like that (or something close to it) I think at that point even the most diehard TT fans (myself included) would say, OK he got a fair shot and just can't cut it

anything short of that i think is selling it short - he got nothing last year, nothing this off season so to any normal team and season this would be like giving their project 3 years

and by all means, everyone called TT a project and not ready to walk into a huddle like Sam Bradford

I don't think it will take 4 years for Tebow to show that he sucks. If he plays this year then he will show it and then we can put this stupid debate behind us and draft a QB next year.

[underrated29]

The more game film they have on Tebow the more those numbers will go south. Orton looked good for a minute too.


How do you game film tebow running for 40 yard Tds and first downs?


If you put a single LB spy on him tebow will run him down. We have seen it. If you put one or more LB on a spy or a blitz that means that someone- WR, RB, TE will be open or single coverage. We have the players to beat single coverage.


Thats why I am saying that after 2 pre season games Tebow will more than likely significantly have closed the gap (even when working with 2nd teamers and 2nd team OL) and potentially win the starting job.

[claymore]

How do you game film tebow running for 40 yard Tds and first downs?


If you put a single LB spy on him tebow will run him down. We have seen it. If you put one or more LB on a spy or a blitz that means that someone- WR, RB, TE will be open or single coverage. We have the players to beat single coverage.


Thats why I am saying that after 2 pre season games Tebow will more than likely significantly have closed the gap (even when working with 2nd teamers and 2nd team OL) and potentially win the starting job.

Id be shocked he could demonstrate it durring a game and not in practice. But stranger things have happened.

[lgenf]

I don't think it will take 4 years for Tebow to show that he sucks. If he plays this year then he will show it and then we can put this stupid debate behind us and draft a QB next year.

and your point backs up my point

I expect TT to struggle this year, as do almost every single other 1st year QB's, my point is that he will need time after that as well


the truth is that Orton is leaving at the end of this year

he's a FA and leaving - either get something for him or be prepared to let him walk away, either way TT will be here next year, and Luck will not be

so if you want to push the TT learning on the job training until next year and have another year of crap then that is your choice.

I would rather have TT in there at QB and see what his learning curve is this year and allow him to start next year also, before the book is closed on him

[Jsteve01]

How do you game film tebow running for 40 yard Tds and first downs?


If you put a single LB spy on him tebow will run him down. We have seen it. If you put one or more LB on a spy or a blitz that means that someone- WR, RB, TE will be open or single coverage. We have the players to beat single coverage.


Thats why I am saying that after 2 pre season games Tebow will more than likely significantly have closed the gap (even when working with 2nd teamers and 2nd team OL) and potentially win the starting job.

McNabb and tebow same size...Donovan had more speed and better qb ability coming out...remember how that tact worked for him? This crap about running for 40 yards doesn't play. shoot he hurt himself in preseason doing that stuff last year.

[underrated29]

McNabb and tebow same size...Donovan had more speed and better qb ability coming out...remember how that tact worked for him? This crap about running for 40 yards doesn't play. shoot he hurt himself in preseason doing that stuff last year.



So what are you saying steve? Mcnabb- was a great QB and a big time threat to scramble- maybe not anymore but shoot he is like 12 years in the league. There was a time when he and mcnair were running for first and tds all the time.


As for it doesnt play? Id like to know why it doesnt? we saw in three games tebow run for something like 600-700 yards. And after that we saw tebow running out of bounds, throwing teh ball away and going down. He took one lick in preseason and now people think that is happens Every time, which couldnt be further from the truth.

[underrated29]

Id be shocked he could demonstrate it durring a game and not in practice. But stranger things have happened.



Didnt you watch his 3 games last year?

[Juriga72]

McNabb and tebow same size...Donovan had more speed and better qb ability coming out...remember how that tact worked for him? This crap about running for 40 yards doesn't play. shoot he hurt himself in preseason doing that stuff last year.

Yeah.... McNabb as a running qb sucks....
4 straight NFC Championships
Super Bowl
6X Pro Bowl
2004 NFL MVP

yeah... runnig QB's sure do suck

74.6% of Phillys yards were his in 2000

Played on a broken leg during a playoff game....Oh wait. Playoff games won? Pro Bowls? yeah...we dont want none of them...

[Northman]

After what those players put on the field the last couple of seasons...who gives a shit. It's not like their locker room camaraderie has gotten this team out of single digit wins lately.

Tell it like it is sista. The players dont really give a shit, they are ALL in it for themselves no matter who it is. There is no camaraderieship on this club. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/camaraderie)

[Northman]

How many of those do you see on this board? One or two? That's a pretty good sample of how many are out there - not many. Most people who want Orton to start just think he's the best QB we have, and that isn't saying much.

Tebow, on the other hand, has fans screaming that he's the savior of the franchise despite nearly every scout and expert agreeing that he isn't an NFL starter. Having Tebow on this team literally lowers the football IQ of the entire fanbase. If he were on another team, we'd probably be laughing at them.

Actually, thats vastly incorrect as well. Most who want Tebow to start just want a fresh start alltogether after the failure that is the McD regime. The fans that want Tebow to start want to see if he has what it takes to be a FQB and if not, draft one next year. By not playing starting and playing him the uncertainty is still there. But aside from 3-4 gator fans most just want to see someone else run the offense.

[I Eat Staples]

nope 3 years

just like Stafford will get, Alex Smith will get, Bradford will get and pretty much every other QB that was ever drafted in the 1st round

if you think starting this year is going to either make or break him when he got no attention last year that is selling his chances short

the team looked like crap most of the year last year, and for the last 3 games the team played like they had something to prove, they played with life

I would like to see that for the next two years

Stafford has been great when healthy, Bradford had a great rookie year, and Alex Smith is done. I don't get your point.


Actually, thats vastly incorrect as well. Most who want Tebow to start just want a fresh start alltogether after the failure that is the McD regime. The fans that want Tebow to start want to see if he has what it takes to be a FQB and if not, draft one next year. By not playing starting and playing him the uncertainty is still there. But aside from 3-4 gator fans most just want to see someone else run the offense.

I completely understand that point of view, aside from Tebow being a fresh start from the McD regime. He was only a 1st round pick because of McD's inability to draft. Other than that, that's a perfectly rational point of view. But many fans do have unrealistic expectations for Tebow, not just the Gator fans.

[dogfish]

McNabb and tebow same size...Donovan had more speed and better qb ability coming out...remember how that tact worked for him? This crap about running for 40 yards doesn't play. shoot he hurt himself in preseason doing that stuff last year.

mmm-hmm, sure. . . whatever you say. . .


O8P1TzqWEgY


:welcome:

[Northman]

I'm looking at Tebow's stats from last year versus Orton

Orton
comp % 58.8
yds 3653
td 20
int 9

Tebow
comp % 50.0
yds 654
td 5 (with 6 more via rush)
int 3

that is a 7th year QB with what 6 years starting under his belt versus a rookie that got nothing for practice all last year until McD got fired

I think Tebow deserves at least 2 years of starting exp before the FO decides to go another direction

Agreed:

Cant believe i have to pull up these stats yet again but apparently people have short memories. Compared to other young QB's on struggling franchises his stats are right up there with those guys and better in the rushing category. Although im not crazy about his rushing stats being that high he is a guy who can learn if he is given a chance. But for a guy who came in without many reps with the first teamers, without consistency at the head coaching when he started he did pretty ******* well.

Stafford
Wk 1: 205 yds passing, 0 TD, 3 Int
2 rush, 0 yd 1 TD

Wk 2: 152 yds passing, 1 TD, 2 Int
1 rush, 7 yds

Wk 3: 241 yds passing, 1 TD
2 rush, 23 yds


Bradford
Wk 1: 297 yds passing, 1 TD
1 rush, 9 yds

Wk 2: 167 yds passing, 2 TD, 1 Int

Wk 3: 235 yds passing, 1 TD, 1 Int
1 rush, 2 yds


Tebow
Wk 1: 138 yds passing, 1 TD
8 rush, 78 yds 1 TD

Wk 2: 308 yds passing, 1 TD, 1 Int
10 rush, 27 yds, 1 TD

Wk 3: 205 yds passing, 2 TD, 2 Int
13 rush, 94 yds, 1 TD

[lgenf]

I'm a TT fan, that aside

ORTON is leaving at the end of this year

better find out what TT has in the tank for a full year

so far in the 3 games he mopped up at the end of last year, he looked good for what he had to work with

[underrated29]

Actually, thats vastly incorrect as well. Most who want Tebow to start just want a fresh start alltogether after the failure that is the McD regime. The fans that want Tebow to start want to see if he has what it takes to be a FQB and if not, draft one next year. By not playing starting and playing him the uncertainty is still there. But aside from 3-4 gator fans most just want to see someone else run the offense.



I'm a TT fan, that aside

ORTON is leaving at the end of this year

better find out what TT has in the tank for a full year

so far in the 3 games he mopped up at the end of last year, he looked good for what he had to work with



Aside from the fact that I think tebow gives us a chance to win anygame because he is such a wildcard. These two above posts sum up PERFECTLY where I am at and why I am tired of seeing Orton start.

[jlarsiii]

and your point backs up my point

I expect TT to struggle this year, as do almost every single other 1st year QB's, my point is that he will need time after that as well


the truth is that Orton is leaving at the end of this year

he's a FA and leaving - either get something for him or be prepared to let him walk away, either way TT will be here next year, and Luck will not be

so if you want to push the TT learning on the job training until next year and have another year of crap then that is your choice.

I would rather have TT in there at QB and see what his learning curve is this year and allow him to start next year also, before the book is closed on him

My point did not back up your point. I just didn't want to go into a rant. Let me be clear now. Tebow will suck this year, next year, and the year after that. He will not have any more years after that as a QB. I do not need to see that guy suck ass for 4 years when it will only take one year to show that he does not have, and never will have, the skill set to play QB in the NFL.

BTW, he is not a 1st year QB either. If Orton manages the game with an improved defense this year he will be around for longer than this year. He knows just like Tebow and Quinn that with a new coaching regime comes a new opportunity to earn their spot now and in the future.

If Orton is gone, as you state, then I can guarantee that we will be drafting a QB in the 1st round next year because neither Tebow or Quinn is the answer.

We differ on a year of crap. Right now I believe Orton (as bad as everyone here seems to think he is) gives us a better chance to win than Tebow. If the FO cares at all about winning then they will start Orton this year. If they want Mr. Luck then they will start Tebow to assure our high draft pick again next year.

[jlarsiii]

Actually, thats vastly incorrect as well. Most who want Tebow to start just want a fresh start alltogether after the failure that is the McD regime. The fans that want Tebow to start want to see if he has what it takes to be a FQB and if not, draft one next year. By not playing starting and playing him the uncertainty is still there. But aside from 3-4 gator fans most just want to see someone else run the offense.

To me, drafting Tebow is the very epitome of the McD regime. It still stands as the single largest draft blunder that dunce made. I want him off this team in the worst way because I see him as no better than an average fullback who conned an r-tard into drafting him in the first round, and magically convinced the fan-base that having intangibles will overcome his incredible lack of NFL caliber QB skills.

I want this team to win and I do not see that happening with Tebow as the starter.

[Jsteve01]

Yeah.... McNabb as a running qb sucks....
4 straight NFC Championships
Super Bowl
6X Pro Bowl
2004 NFL MVP

yeah... runnig QB's sure do suck

74.6% of Phillys yards were his in 2000

Played on a broken leg during a playoff game....Oh wait. Playoff games won? Pro Bowls? yeah...we dont want none of them...


wish I could make this more simple for you. Mcnabb achieved all that stuff when he was healthy enough to do it. He learned pretty quickly that running 10 times per game would end his career.

his rush attempts per game dropped significantly each year until they reached the super bowl. Guess how many times a game he ran that year? 3 per game. That's about right if you want your qb to survive.

[Northman]

To me, drafting Tebow is the very epitome of the McD regime. It still stands as the single largest draft blunder that dunce made. I want him off this team in the worst way because I see him as no better than an average fullback who conned an r-tard into drafting him in the first round, and magically convinced the fan-base that having intangibles will overcome his incredible lack of NFL caliber QB skills.

I want this team to win and I do not see that happening with Tebow as the starter.

Well, i was never in favor of drafting Tebow. And as much as i dont care for Orton i thought McD was a complete liar (shocker there) when he said Kyle was his guy and then drafts a QB in the first round. But, it is what it is and whats done is done. Ive already posted stats of Tebow's first 3 games and he measures up with guys like Bradford and Stafford, that cant be denied. Will he be a FQB? I have no idea but thus far considering the circumstances he was put in last year he deserves a chance to see if he can be the guy. And since we have no shot at winning anything meaningful this year with either of them i would like the FO to give the reigns to Tebow to see if he is that guy. If not, draft another. Either way we already know Orton isnt that guy so wasting time on futile wins this year is pretty meaningless.

[NightTerror218]

Well, i was never in favor of drafting Tebow. And as much as i dont care for Orton i thought McD was a complete liar (shocker there) when he said Kyle was his guy and then drafts a QB in the first round. But, it is what it is and whats done is done. Ive already posted stats of Tebow's first 3 games and he measures up with guys like Bradford and Stafford, that cant be denied. Will he be a FQB? I have no idea but thus far considering the circumstances he was put in last year he deserves a chance to see if he can be the guy. And since we have no shot at winning anything meaningful this year with either of them i would like the FO to give the reigns to Tebow to see if he is that guy. If not, draft another. Either way we already know Orton isnt that guy so wasting time on futile wins this year is pretty meaningless.



http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/30072/orton-vs-tebow-by-the-numbers


some more stats :D
even though unfair comparision of a 6 yr vet to a rookie with no 1st team reps

[Nomad]

Well, i was never in favor of drafting Tebow. And as much as i dont care for Orton i thought McD was a complete liar (shocker there) when he said Kyle was his guy and then drafts a QB in the first round. But, it is what it is and whats done is done. Ive already posted stats of Tebow's first 3 games and he measures up with guys like Bradford and Stafford, that cant be denied. Will he be a FQB? I have no idea but thus far considering the circumstances he was put in last year he deserves a chance to see if he can be the guy. And since we have no shot at winning anything meaningful this year with either of them i would like the FO to give the reigns to Tebow to see if he is that guy. If not, draft another. Either way we already know Orton isnt that guy so wasting time on futile wins this year is pretty meaningless.

Well said North!!

[jlarsiii]

Well, i was never in favor of drafting Tebow. And as much as i dont care for Orton i thought McD was a complete liar (shocker there) when he said Kyle was his guy and then drafts a QB in the first round. But, it is what it is and whats done is done. Ive already posted stats of Tebow's first 3 games and he measures up with guys like Bradford and Stafford, that cant be denied. Will he be a FQB? I have no idea but thus far considering the circumstances he was put in last year he deserves a chance to see if he can be the guy. And since we have no shot at winning anything meaningful this year with either of them i would like the FO to give the reigns to Tebow to see if he is that guy. If not, draft another. Either way we already know Orton isnt that guy so wasting time on futile wins this year is pretty meaningless.

Futile wins?????? Never heard anyone who claimed to be a fan call a win futile. . .

Aside from that I see your point. Orton has a ceiling which can't be overcome so you want to see what Tebow can do. Gotcha. I am hoping that Orton can overcome to help this team win.

[Northman]

Futile wins?????? Never heard anyone who claimed to be a fan call a win futile. . .

Aside from that I see your point. Orton has a ceiling which can't be overcome so you want to see what Tebow can do. Gotcha. I am hoping that Orton can overcome to help this team win.

By futile wins i mean doing what we have done since 2007. Play .500 or worse football. As you just stated, we've seen Orton's ceiling. We've seen what he can do WITH a running game and without. So do i really want to see him starting for another subpar year? Would you really be satisfied with yet another 8-8 or worse season? Really?

I mean, if we are going to settle for that it makes perfect sense to have Tebow play cause then at least we arent wasting ANOTHER year after this one to know if he can play QB. I would much rather find out now if he has what it takes to be the guy than go into next year and pass up a QB who might help this franchise because we dont know what he has.

[Jsteve01]

By futile wins i mean doing what we have done since 2007. Play .500 or worse football. As you just stated, we've seen Orton's ceiling. We've seen what he can do WITH a running game and without. So do i really want to see him starting for another subpar year? Would you really be satisfied with yet another 8-8 or worse season? Really?

I mean, if we are going to settle for that it makes perfect sense to have Tebow play cause then at least we arent wasting ANOTHER year after this one to know if he can play QB. I would much rather find out now if he has what it takes to be the guy than go into next year and pass up a QB who might help this franchise because we dont know what he has.

with a running game? What? when has Orton had a running game since he's been in Denver. Im tossing the Chicago years out. Since his arrival in Denver when has there been a run game?

[Northman]

with a running game? What? when has Orton had a running game since he's been in Denver. Im tossing the Chicago years out. Since his arrival in Denver when has there been a run game?

Someone pulled the stats up earlier. We arent talking just about one player, but as a whole. But, the first game that i can remember is the second KC game in which Moreno had 161 yds rushing. And by a quick look at the box scores we had 119 vs the Rams, 153 vs the Chiefs the first time, 132 vs the Cardinals and 145 vs the Jets.

[Juriga72]

wish I could make this more simple for you. Mcnabb achieved all that stuff when he was healthy enough to do it. He learned pretty quickly that running 10 times per game would end his career.

his rush attempts per game dropped significantly each year until they reached the super bowl. Guess how many times a game he ran that year? 3 per game. That's about right if you want your qb to survive.

Guess I could make it simple for you.... Um Ok.. Here goes...

More Lyin about his running I see... Ok...

2001-5.375 Att/game
2002-5.125 Att/game
2003- 6.3 Att/game
2004- 4.4375 Att/game SUPER BOWL
2005- 6.1 ATT/game "Each year he dropped att?????" "Untill the Super Bowl year where he rushed ofr 3 att/game???

NOW ask yourself....
How many times after 4 straight NFC Championship games did they make it back?

Once...riding a great defense

[Jsteve01]

Guess I could make it simple for you.... Um Ok.. Here goes...

More Lyin about his running I see... Ok...

2001-5.375 Att/game
2002-5.125 Att/game
2003- 6.3 Att/game
2004- 4.4375 Att/game SUPER BOWL
2005- 6.1 ATT/game "Each year he dropped att?????" "Untill the Super Bowl year where he rushed ofr 3 att/game???

NOW ask yourself....
How many times after 4 straight NFC Championship games did they make it back?

Once...riding a great defense

where are you getting your stats? in 2004 he was under 3 per game...

here's the link

http://www.nfl.com/player/donovanmcnabb/2502044/careerstats

[Jsteve01]

Guess I could make it simple for you.... Um Ok.. Here goes...

More Lyin about his running I see... Ok...

2001-5.375 Att/game
2002-5.125 Att/game
2003- 6.3 Att/game
2004- 4.4375 Att/game SUPER BOWL
2005- 6.1 ATT/game "Each year he dropped att?????" "Untill the Super Bowl year where he rushed ofr 3 att/game???

NOW ask yourself....
How many times after 4 straight NFC Championship games did they make it back?

Once...riding a great defense

and enough with the lying stuff..provide a link mr back your chit up...I just get a kick out of chicken chits like yourself who have no problem saying that type of stuff on internet sites.

[Jsteve01]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaDo00.htm

another one for ya big guy...hope the numbers aren't too confusing....oh an btw epic fail when the guy repeatedly calling other people a liar turns out to be the liar in the room


his attempts dropped steadily other than 2002 when omg he had the highest attempts per game of his career and happened to get hurt. Only started 10 games that year. So tell me again why high rushing totals for a qb are a good thing? Im not saying escapability and the threat of a run aren't beneficial but the idea of using a guy consistently in that role is silly

[Jsteve01]

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/players.nsf/ID/08010200

one more for ya big guy...im sure if the numbers get too confusing someone will splain it for you

[BORDERLINE]

Play Tebow if we suck we move on next year.

To the people that believe Orton gives us the best chance to win I would just like to know why?

he won 3 games out of 13 played. i remember the SF game where he couldn't get nothing going againts a cheap SF defense. The colts game where in a 4th and 5 he snapped under pressure and missed the throw. I just seen this guy to many times be out of it. When we needed 3 yards he gets two or he gets sacked by a gust of wind in a dome stadium. Like many fans we are tired of neck beard and i'm tired of the Tebow hype i wanna see if it's true

If not then let Orton walk. Trade Tebow or keep him as a back-up, a red zone option. And draft a new QB or pick up one from another team. I really don't care how it's done just as long as it gets done. So EFX can have all of "Their" guys playing and we can hold them accountable, just like I expect all of us to hold them accountable for not drafting and or picking up a stout DT in free agency. That's on them

[NightTerror218]

Play Tebow if we suck we move on next year.

To the people that believe Orton gives us the best chance to win I would just like to know why?

he won 3 games out of 13 played. i remember the SF game where he couldn't get nothing going againts a cheap SF defense. The colts game where in a 4th and 5 he snapped under pressure and missed the throw. I just seen this guy to many times be out of it. When we needed 3 yards he gets two or he gets sacked by a gust of wind in a dome stadium. Like many fans we are tired of neck beard and i'm tired of the Tebow hype i wanna see if it's true

If not then let Orton walk. Trade Tebow or keep him as a back-up, a red zone option. And draft a new QB or pick up one from another team. I really don't care how it's done just as long as it gets done. So EFX can have all of "Their" guys playing and we can hold them accountable, just like I expect all of us to hold them accountable for not drafting and or picking up a stout DT in free agency. That's on them

Dont forget Fox wanted to draft Tebow later in that draft....I think the 2nd round.

[vettesplus]

all you TB fan boys need to get a grip on reality, TB is not a starting QB, he cannot throw, has no sense of direction in his throw and will never be a pocket passer. he has heart, drive and toughness but that will never make a great QB in this league. so you all need to look at what is best for the bronco nation and check your fan ego's at the door....if you boo Orton or who ever is the starting QB for the broncos this year you need to be tossed out of the stadium on your head.......

[NightTerror218]

all you TB fan boys need to get a grip on reality, TB is not a starting QB, he cannot throw, has no sense of direction in his throw and will never be a pocket passer. he has heart, drive and toughness but that will never make a great QB in this league. so you all need to look at what is best for the bronco nation and check your fan ego's at the door....if you boo Orton or who ever is the starting QB for the broncos this year you need to be tossed out of the stadium on your head.......

I may be disappointed but I would never boo at a my team......I just dont think Orton is best for this team and wnat to see what Tebow has. If Tebow flops we have a good draft pick next year.

[Juriga72]

and enough with the lying stuff..provide a link mr back your chit up...I just get a kick out of chicken chits like yourself who have no problem saying that type of stuff on internet sites.

LOL... ok.. NOW I have to prove stuff to you?

Call me when you get out of 1st grade sonny.






http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaDo00.htm
How bout this one????

[MOtorboat]

and enough with the lying stuff..provide a link mr back your chit up...I just get a kick out of chicken chits like yourself who have no problem saying that type of stuff on internet sites.

LOL... ok.. NOW I have to prove stuff to you?

Call me when you get out of 1st grade sonny.






http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaDo00.htm
How bout this one????

Your numbers are wrong. Care to comment?

[I Eat Staples]

all you TB fan boys need to get a grip on reality, TB is not a starting QB, he cannot throw, has no sense of direction in his throw and will never be a pocket passer. he has heart, drive and toughness but that will never make a great QB in this league. so you all need to look at what is best for the bronco nation and check your fan ego's at the door....if you boo Orton or who ever is the starting QB for the broncos this year you need to be tossed out of the stadium on your head.......

I approve of this post.

[Juriga72]

Your numbers are wrong. Care to comment?

HOW????

Which ones are wrong?
http://www.nfl.com/player/donovanmcnabb/2502044/careerstats?id=MCN017517

McDouchie II stated that "Each year his rush attempte went down dramaticly"
They didnt... thats a fact.

1999- 3.9
2000- 5.4 ( Thats MORE attempts right???? Lets ask McDopushie II)
2001- 5.1 OHHHHHHHHH I see DRAMTICLY LOWER!!!!!! thats what....4 whole attempts in one year...
2002- 6.3..... Wait.. is 6 HIGHER than 5???? I might think it is.... golly... how can it be higher if EVERY YEAR his rush attempts were LOWER??????????
2003- 4.4 RUH-ro...... THAT IS DRAMTICLY LOWER!!!!!!!!
2004! 2.7 HOL:Y F_ING CRAP....... He's right!!!!! He did rush for LESS than 3 att/game..... Durn
2005- 2.8 uh oh...getting higher
2006- 3.2 STILL getting higher
2007-3.6.........

So lets see..... He WAS right about the Super Bowl year!!!!!!!

he was WRONG about the "Dramticly decreasing carries"

He can'tr prove he even KNOWS anyone in Chicago who says ANYTHING to back him up = lying


any questions?

[Agent of Orange]

If he starts the season and plays bad. Does not put up the points we expect he would. Does not win a lot of games.

Would you hold EFX responsible for not starting K.O???

I say that to say this. Most Broncos fans want Tebow to start no matter what he does in "practice" we see a fire and a competitor that I personally don't see in Orton.
If Tebow does not play to our expectations then frankly I don't hold EFX responsible. They would have done there due diligence to him and to our fan base and we could all move on to a new QB with no hard feelings or resentment.

Would any of you feel the same???

That may be all you see but a lot of us see an added dimension in running. And as far as his passing is concerned, his QB rating was more or less the same as Orton's as a rookie. But more generally, the offense was more effective with Tebow at QB because it scored more points consistently.

[MOtorboat]

Your numbers are wrong. Care to comment?

HOW????

Which ones are wrong?

All of them. Your carries for McNabb per game are wrong.

[Jsteve01]

LOL... ok.. NOW I have to prove stuff to you?

Call me when you get out of 1st grade sonny.






http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaDo00.htm
How bout this one????

lmao go look at your own stats bro....this is pretty funny...they say what I said already...let me know when you get done

[Jsteve01]

HOW????

Which ones are wrong?

shall I post the whole table or do we just call it good?

[Juriga72]

wish I could make this more simple for you. Mcnabb achieved all that stuff when he was healthy enough to do it. He learned pretty quickly that running 10 times per game would end his career.

his rush attempts per game dropped significantly each year until they reached the super bowl. Guess how many times a game he ran that year? 3 per game. That's about right if you want your qb to survive.

Care to link the 10 rush attempts/ game?

:)

[MOtorboat]

wish I could make this more simple for you. Mcnabb achieved all that stuff when he was healthy enough to do it. He learned pretty quickly that running 10 times per game would end his career.

his rush attempts per game dropped significantly each year until they reached the super bowl. Guess how many times a game he ran that year? 3 per game. That's about right if you want your qb to survive.

Care to link the 10 rush attempts/ game?

:)

Care to link the stats you, apparently, made up?

[Juriga72]

Care to link the stats you, apparently, made up?

Seriously?? look UP ^ if its not too hard for you....

[MOtorboat]

Care to link the stats you, apparently, made up?

Seriously?? look UP ^ if its not too hard for you....

I looked them up. Your stats are wrong.

[Medford Bronco]

I still say we need a better defense. It does not matter if Elway Circa 1998 or Montana circa 1990 start if they have the historically bad D we had last year.

I am kind of torn on this one. I do not have enough info on Tebow to make a huge judgment on him. Orton is okay but not a savior by any means. Also he is very frustrating at times when he cant convert 3rd downs to save his life.

we are rebuiliding anyways so I guess I would lean towards Tebow but would watch and root for whomever (even Brady Quinn yikes :O ) is our starter

[Juriga72]

I looked them up. Your stats are wrong.

Sorry Mo... Looks like I tranposed the years on the first post.

[Jsteve01]

Care to link the 10 rush attempts/ game?

:)

Ok you got me hyperbole on my part the statement I made was he realized he couldn't be successful rushing 10 times per game. In the year of his highest carries per game, he got hurt and missed 6 games which is the whole point of my original post. Escapability is great, running for the sake of running exposes the franchise player to injury, and his carries did go down dramatically post that injury riddled season. he went from averaging over 5 carries through his first 5 years to averaging 2.7 carries per game... post superbowl... that's my point

in case you missed it my entire line has and will always be that I like Tebow, there's not a player I'd rather root for, but that doesn't mean I want to start him if he doesn't deserve it.

Im entirely convinced the most of what stunk around here was due to Mcd's lack of focus on the run game on offensive side of the ball and injuries on the defensive side of the ball. Of course his azzhole personality didn't help to motivate guys either but I'm not for writing guys off because their fearless leader was lost.

[Medford Bronco]

Care to link the 10 rush attempts/ game?

:)

more like 5 per game in his career by doing the simple math

[Jsteve01]

Sorry Mo... Looks like I tranposed the years on the first post.

what no apology for me you big fat liar ;)

[Juriga72]

Ok you got me hyperbole on my part the statement I made was he realized he couldn't be successful rushing 10 times per game. In the year of his highest carries per game, he got hurt and missed 6 games which is the whole point of my original post. Escapability is great, running for the sake of running exposes the franchise player to injury, and his carries did go down dramatically post that injury riddled season. he went from averaging over 5 carries through his first 5 years to averaging 2.7 carries per game... post superbowl... that's my point

in case you missed it my entire line has and will always be that I like Tebow, there's not a player I'd rather root for, but that doesn't mean I want to start him if he doesn't deserve it.

Im entirely convinced the most of what stunk around here was due to Mcd's lack of focus on the run game on offensive side of the ball and injuries on the defensive side of the ball. Of course his azzhole personality didn't help to motivate guys either but I'm not for writing guys off because their fearless leader was lost.

I F-uked my numbers in my first Post!!!!! I had the years wrong and also the last att/game!!!

Yeah... I DO have to agree with those laast 3 years he got hurt every year... he stopped running...

Sorry Bro!!
BTW... I would TAKE losing 3 straight AFC Championships before Tebow figures out this lesson....

[Juriga72]

what no apology for me you big fat liar ;)

F-off!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :welcome:

[Jsteve01]

I F-uked my numbers in my first Post!!!!! I had the years wrong and also the last att/game!!!

Yeah... I DO have to agree with those laast 3 years he got hurt every year... he stopped running...

Sorry Bro!!
BTW... I would TAKE losing 3 straight AFC Championships before Tebow figures out this lesson....

lol no worries man...im a pretty petulant jackazz most of the time...im fully aware that Im hard to get along with, but Im Irish Italian so Im quick to fight, quick to forgive and hopefully quick to apologize...

[jlarsiii]

By futile wins i mean doing what we have done since 2007. Play .500 or worse football. As you just stated, we've seen Orton's ceiling. We've seen what he can do WITH a running game and without. So do i really want to see him starting for another subpar year? Would you really be satisfied with yet another 8-8 or worse season? Really?

I mean, if we are going to settle for that it makes perfect sense to have Tebow play cause then at least we arent wasting ANOTHER year after this one to know if he can play QB. I would much rather find out now if he has what it takes to be the guy than go into next year and pass up a QB who might help this franchise because we dont know what he has.

It depends on the context. I would take an 8-8 season as this would mark a 4 win improvement over the previous season and that is progress towards the main goal which is winning championships. How we would get to 8-8 would go a long way in shaping my level of satisfaction.

I would hate to give up the possibility of improving our W-L record just to test out if a player is ready, or even capable, of playing at a position. If any player is ready to play then let them prove it by winning the job. Don't hand it to them for ridiculous reasons.

If Tebow can't win the job outright then that should prove to people that he isn't the man for the job, but handing it to him as an experiment to see what he can do goes against the basic premise of the game which is to put the best team forward to win now. Coaches are not given the luxury of time anymore so they have to focus on winning.

Tebow has this year alone to prove he can do it or he is done. The new regime will not tolerate a project player at QB when the upcoming QB draft class looks fairly deep. If he can't even win the starting job then why sacrifice the whole season when you already have the answer.

Anyway, as Med put it our real problem right now is the D. Until that is fixed it won't matter as much what the offense does.

[BORDERLINE]

all you TB fan boys need to get a grip on reality, TB is not a starting QB, he cannot throw, has no sense of direction in his throw and will never be a pocket passer. he has heart, drive and toughness but that will never make a great QB in this league. so you all need to look at what is best for the bronco nation and check your fan ego's at the door....if you boo Orton or who ever is the starting QB for the broncos this year you need to be tossed out of the stadium on your head.......

I've been a life long Broncos fan my man and i understand some of the Bronco fan base are really vexed by all these Gator fans screaming Go Broncos now.

But to say fans can't voice their displeasure to there football team is absurd. Do you think the fans that went to Mile High to see the Raiders paste 59 points in 3 quarters had there fan ego checked at the door? Sorry bud but that type of play does not cut it. I will boo my azz off if I went to Denver to see that.

And you are telling me this fan base shouldn't be upset if Orton starts. AJ feeley outscored the Broncos with the mighty John Skelton at the helm. That london game where the Niners looked like they had a impenetrable defense. Orton folded against the most soft defenses in the NFL. We went 1-3 against the NFC west!!! Sorry man but a fan will sit through those games like i did and many of us did. The ones that did not boo where probably in a coma.

[Sinthor]

I wouldn't.. but would the players? They are the ones busting their butts in practice and on the field. Would they simply want to throw in a QB they know isn't the best option, just to 'see' if it works?

Afterall, as you said, this coaching staff and FO didn't draft Tebow, but they ARE left with the media circus that seems to follow it. They are left with the political outlash if they don't start him.

But this coaching staff wants/needs to win. Or at least improve. They need to put the best player on the field that helps them accomplish that task.

Now many of us feel that Tebow is that best option purely based on knowing that Orton is NOT the future of this team. However, the coaching staff isn't considered with the future of this team. They can't be. They know THEIR jobs are contengent on THIS season, and the now. They can only make decisions based on what they see in practice. Later on, during games, if/when they realize that ORton is just not getting it done..... then they will move to Tebow.

By then, Orton will have shown (again) that he isn't going to WIN you games.

I might buy that the players would be pissed if EFX threw in a QB that showed absolutely nothing AND wasn't the best in practice, like say Adam Weber. Going with a guy that's already shown he can lead the team, move the ball and win games....that's not so big of a deal. As long as if the guy crashes and burns, the management has a backup plan. Don't forget...teammates were very positive about Tebow during the 3 game stretch last year and over the offseason. Now they're in a position of having to backtrack their own statements from assuming Tebow WAS going to be leading the team. No..they'd be just fine if Fox starts Tebow.

[RebelRocker]

I'm looking at Tebow's stats from last year versus Orton

Orton
comp % 58.8
yds 3653
td 20
int 9

Tebow
comp % 50.0
yds 654
td 5 (with 6 more via rush)
int 3

that is a 7th year QB with what 6 years starting under his belt versus a rookie that got nothing for practice all last year until McD got fired

I think Tebow deserves at least 2 years of starting exp before the FO decides to go another direction



Dude, shut up.

1.You can't compare their stats when one only started 3 games.

2.Orton's only been a starter in the NFL for 4 years. The other two years he was a backup. If you're going to try to make an argument about this, then get your facts straight.

[Northman]

It depends on the context. I would take an 8-8 season as this would mark a 4 win improvement over the previous season and that is progress towards the main goal which is winning championships. How we would get to 8-8 would go a long way in shaping my level of satisfaction.

I would hate to give up the possibility of improving our W-L record just to test out if a player is ready, or even capable, of playing at a position. If any player is ready to play then let them prove it by winning the job. Don't hand it to them for ridiculous reasons.

If Tebow can't win the job outright then that should prove to people that he isn't the man for the job, but handing it to him as an experiment to see what he can do goes against the basic premise of the game which is to put the best team forward to win now. Coaches are not given the luxury of time anymore so they have to focus on winning.

Tebow has this year alone to prove he can do it or he is done. The new regime will not tolerate a project player at QB when the upcoming QB draft class looks fairly deep. If he can't even win the starting job then why sacrifice the whole season when you already have the answer.

Anyway, as Med put it our real problem right now is the D. Until that is fixed it won't matter as much what the offense does.

But its not a ridiculous reason. Do you think that Newton, Stafford, Bradford, etc are starting because they outshined a vet on their team? Please. They are starting because those franchises know they need to get the reps and experience necessary to be their guy. No team just drafts a 1st round QB and evaluates him on practice. Thats just silly. Denver is a 4-12 team in desperate need to find out if ANY of the young talent they have is worth keeping around. Having Denver go 8-8 this season (If that even happens) would just be the same ol, same ol. If Orton starts all year and then Fox decides he is not the guy (most likely) and then cuts or trades Tebow without even knowing what he can do than we are back to square one by drafting another 1st round QB to sit the bench. Because i mean, afterall if Luck sucks in practice than i guess he sits behind Quinn or some other loaf. I guess Indy was glad they started Manning so they knew what they had in him because god forbid if they kept him on the bench and dumped him after 3 starts. lol

[Ravage!!!]

I might buy that the players would be pissed if EFX threw in a QB that showed absolutely nothing AND wasn't the best in practice, like say Adam Weber. Going with a guy that's already shown he can lead the team, move the ball and win games....that's not so big of a deal. As long as if the guy crashes and burns, the management has a backup plan. Don't forget...teammates were very positive about Tebow during the 3 game stretch last year and over the offseason. Now they're in a position of having to backtrack their own statements from assuming Tebow WAS going to be leading the team. No..they'd be just fine if Fox starts Tebow.

No. That was last year. There is no back-tracking at all.

Lloyd has made it VERY clear that he believes Orton should be the starter because he's the best QB right now. He's basicaly flat out said it, and its been pretty well documented and repeated. Do you think he's the only one that feels that way? I don't think any player said bad things about Orton, nor have they said bad things about Tebow. They have backed the player that is going to start. Right now, Lloyd has made it very clear that he believes Orton to be the better QB.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

No. That was last year. There is no back-tracking at all.

Lloyd has made it VERY clear that he believes Orton should be the starter because he's the best QB right now. He's basicaly flat out said it, and its been pretty well documented and repeated. Do you think he's the only one that feels that way? I don't think any player said bad things about Orton, nor have they said bad things about Tebow. They have backed the player that is going to start. Right now, Lloyd has made it very clear that he believes Orton to be the better QB.

Lloyd's a chameleon. He changes colors with the situation. :laugh:

[dogfish]

Lloyd has made it VERY clear that he believes Orton should be the starter because he's the QB that forces the ball to BL the most, improving his chances of cashing in at the end of the year. He's basicaly flat out said it, and its been pretty well documented and repeated. Do you think he's the only one that feels that way? I don't think any player said bad things about Orton, nor have they said bad things about Tebow. They have backed the player that is going to start. Right now, Lloyd has made it very clear that he believes Orton to be the better QB to help him get his new contract.

brandon lloyd-- NOT exactly an uninterested third party. . . :lol:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

No. That was last year. There is no back-tracking at all.

Lloyd has made it VERY clear that he believes Orton should be the starter because he's the best QB right now. He's basicaly flat out said it, and its been pretty well documented and repeated. Do you think he's the only one that feels that way? I don't think any player said bad things about Orton, nor have they said bad things about Tebow. They have backed the player that is going to start. Right now, Lloyd has made it very clear that he believes Orton to be the better QB.

Brandon Lloyd plays for himself. Always has, always will. I know he has endeared himself to this fan base, but this is another contract year for him. If he can repeat last year's performance - regardless of how the team does - Brandon wins big and gets that fat contract.

He wants Orton to play because Orton throws him the ball and will likely feed it to him again this year. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the team, or winning, or chemistry, or leadership. Don't be so naive.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

brandon lloyd-- NOT exactly an uninterested third party. . . :lol:

Yep, got it in right before I did. :beer:

[NightTerror218]

Brandon Lloyd plays for himself. Always has, always will. I know he has endeared himself to this fan base, but this is another contract year for him. If he can repeat last year's performance - regardless of how the team does - Brandon wins big and gets that fat contract.

He wants Orton to play because Orton throws him the ball and will likely feed it to him again this year. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the team, or winning, or chemistry, or leadership. Don't be so naive.

Llyod also talked about taking throws from Tebow to get use to his passes. He gave a nice interview about Tebow at the Pro Bowl talking about the fire he bring to the team and how he trusts Tebows throws to not put him out there to get laid out like most WR have with rookie QBs.

[underrated29]

No. That was last year. There is no back-tracking at all.

Lloyd has made it VERY clear that he believes Orton should be the starter because he's the best QB right now. He's basicaly flat out said it, and its been pretty well documented and repeated. Do you think he's the only one that feels that way? I don't think any player said bad things about Orton, nor have they said bad things about Tebow. They have backed the player that is going to start. Right now, Lloyd has made it very clear that he believes Orton to be the better QB.



How many people ran all the way down the field when Orton scored a touchdown?



I remember seeing Olineman, the RB, all the WR and perhaps even the kicker run down and dance and celebrate with tebow when he scored.



I find it hard to believe suddenly that the team would lose the Locker Room or whatever it if started tebow. brandon might be pissed, until he sees that tebow will win more games. He still could be pissed because he wants the numbers and not the wins. I dont know. But I know what I saw and that was a team rallying around Timmy, not Kylie.

[BroncoStud]

Dude, shut up.

1.You can't compare their stats when one only started 3 games.

2.Orton's only been a starter in the NFL for 4 years. The other two years he was a backup. If you're going to try to make an argument about this, then get your facts straight.

What do Orton's years as a backup have to do with comparing his stats from LAST YEAR to Tebow's start from LAST YEAR.

What's an adequate sample size for you to "allow" a comparison?

Let's compare Jay Cutler's 47.5% 3rd down conversion rate in 2008 to Kyle Orton's 36% 3rd down conversion rate in 2009, with identical rushing production in support. Comparisons are fun.

While we're at it, Rex Grossman Super Bowl appearances with the Bears - 1, Kyle Orton - 0. Jay Cutler NFC Championship appearances with the Bears - 1, Kyle Orton - 0.

Jay Cutler benched for a rookie QB - 0 times
Kyle Orton benched for a rookie QB - 1 time

59... Orton's rating while he "won" for the Bears as a rookie.

58... Kyle Orton's rating on 3rd down last season.

[Npba900]

How do you game film tebow running for 40 yard Tds and first downs?


If you put a single LB spy on him tebow will run him down. We have seen it. If you put one or more LB on a spy or a blitz that means that someone- WR, RB, TE will be open or single coverage. We have the players to beat single coverage.


Thats why I am saying that after 2 pre season games Tebow will more than likely significantly have closed the gap (even when working with 2nd teamers and 2nd team OL) and potentially win the starting job.

It will be interesting to see if Tebow can stand up to the pounding NFL defenses will put on him. This is the NFL after all and not the SEC. The NFL defensive players are bigge,r faster, stronger and more athletic than in college.

Point is, at the NFL level the collisiion violence is greater and Tebow could be opening himself up for concussions and other injury's.

Hence this is way Elway has emphasized that Tebow needs to learn to perform at the highest level possible from the "Pocket"! and not having the first impluse to take off running while taking on tacklers like a Fullback.

Questions are, will Tebow have the discipline to complete plays from the pocket as the plays are drawn up and sent in? When all hell is breaking down in the pocket will Tim be fundamentally sound with his throwing mechanics, reading the defenses and his foot work to make the throws with accuracy.

These are what the pundits/experts/analyst are talking about and where they have doubts about when it comes to Tebow. I know this isn't what Tebow fans want to hear......but thats the reality.

Point is a first round pick should not be this fundamentally unsound at the QB position entering into the NFL. Tebow should have taken the starting job from Orton at this stage because Orton is a journeyman-backup QB.

[NightTerror218]

It will be interesting to see if Tebow can stand up to the pounding NFL defenses will put on him. This is the NFL after all and not the SEC. The NFL defensive players are bigge,r faster, stronger and more athletic than in college.

Point is, at the NFL level the collisiion violence is greater and Tebow could be opening himself up for concussions and other injury's.

Hence this is way Elway has emphasized that Tebow needs to learn to perform at the highest level possible from the "Pocket"! and not having the first impluse to take off running while taking on tacklers like a Fullback.

Questions are, will Tebow have the discipline to complete plays from the pocket as the plays are drawn up and sent in? When all hell is breaking down in the pocket will Tim be fundamentally sound with his throwing mechanics, reading the defenses and his foot work to make the throws with accuracy.

These are what the pundits/experts/analyst are talking about and where they have doubts about when it comes to Tebow. I know this isn't what Tebow fans want to hear......but thats the reality.

Point is a first round pick should not be this fundamentally unsound at the QB position entering into the NFL. Tebow should have taken the starting job from Orton at this stage because Orton is a journeyman-backup QB.


IN the 3 starts you would notice that Tebow ran out of bounds a lot to avoid hits. He learned quick after the bruised ribs in the preseason game. But that 40 yard run he punished the raiders and that was a run where he had great blocking. Imagine Franklin plowing a way for him.

[Northman]

It will be interesting to see if Tebow can stand up to the pounding NFL defenses will put on him. This is the NFL after all and not the SEC. The NFL defensive players are bigge,r faster, stronger and more athletic than in college.

Point is, at the NFL level the collisiion violence is greater and Tebow could be opening himself up for concussions and other injury's.

Hence this is way Elway has emphasized that Tebow needs to learn to perform at the highest level possible from the "Pocket"! and not having the first impluse to take off running while taking on tacklers like a Fullback.

Questions are, will Tebow have the discipline to complete plays from the pocket as the plays are drawn up and sent in? When all hell is breaking down in the pocket will Tim be fundamentally sound with his throwing mechanics, reading the defenses and his foot work to make the throws with accuracy.

These are what the pundits/experts/analyst are talking about and where they have doubts about when it comes to Tebow. I know this isn't what Tebow fans want to hear......but thats the reality.

Point is a first round pick should not be this fundamentally unsound at the QB position entering into the NFL. Tebow should have taken the starting job from Orton at this stage because Orton is a journeyman-backup QB.


All legitimate concerns. I dont like the fact that Tebow runs as much as he does. And i dont agree with Jags that Tebow is the future in terms of how the QB position will be. To this day its still the QB who passes first and runs second that win SB's. Until that changes i will never be sold on guys like Vick, Young, and even Tebow at this point. Tim has got to learn to always think pass first and to make his reads better. The mechanics will come in time but the best way for him to get a feel for all of that is actual game experience.

[NightTerror218]

All legitimate concerns. I dont like the fact that Tebow runs as much as he does. And i dont agree with Jags that Tebow is the future in terms of how the QB position will be. To this day its still the QB who passes first and runs second that win SB's. Until that changes i will never be sold on guys like Vick, Young, and even Tebow at this point. Tim has got to learn to always think pass first and to make his reads better. The mechanics will come in time but the best way for him to get a feel for all of that is actual game experience.

I think as he gets more comfortable with his new throwing motion he will read quicker. It appears he is focusing on his throwing mechanics and footwork and then reading 2nd. Which is what I want to see him doing. I want him to get his motion into a rhythm and then work on reads. Which all it takes are reps and coaching. But his reads will get better playing in games and that will help a lot. Once you start to recognize what a defense is doing you know how to react to it. That is just experience and will increase him getting the ball out of pocket. His release can still be slow but the overall time of getting ball out of hands will be faster.

[Ravage!!!]

Brandon Lloyd plays for himself. Always has, always will. I know he has endeared himself to this fan base, but this is another contract year for him. If he can repeat last year's performance - regardless of how the team does - Brandon wins big and gets that fat contract.

He wants Orton to play because Orton throws him the ball and will likely feed it to him again this year. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the team, or winning, or chemistry, or leadership. Don't be so naive.

Naive? You are saying there aren't other players that are looking to win THIS year because it effect their contracts? How about coaches? Does how we do this year effect their contract?

H56, I get that you want Tebow to play so badly that you aren't willing to look honestly at his faults, but now you think everyone that says anything negative about TT, or positive about Orton, is strictly out to do it for their own gain rather than just sharing an honest opinion??? Really? And you are alling ME naive??

[Lancane]

How many people ran all the way down the field when Orton scored a touchdown?



I remember seeing Olineman, the RB, all the WR and perhaps even the kicker run down and dance and celebrate with tebow when he scored.



I find it hard to believe suddenly that the team would lose the Locker Room or whatever it if started tebow. brandon might be pissed, until he sees that tebow will win more games. He still could be pissed because he wants the numbers and not the wins. I dont know. But I know what I saw and that was a team rallying around Timmy, not Kylie.

Orton guarantees him stats, which leads to maybe a nice fat contract extension. He's already upset they traded his boy Gaffney, at least he told the post that, even saying that Gaffney was the best receiver he played with in his entire career....and here I thought he said the same about Marshall!

[Jsteve01]

Brandon Lloyd plays for himself. Always has, always will. I know he has endeared himself to this fan base, but this is another contract year for him. If he can repeat last year's performance - regardless of how the team does - Brandon wins big and gets that fat contract.

He wants Orton to play because Orton throws him the ball and will likely feed it to him again this year. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the team, or winning, or chemistry, or leadership. Don't be so naive.

lol you missed the part about throwing the football. I agree completely that Tebow has the other part lined out, but throwing the football is pretty important if you want to qb a playoff caliber team right?

[Jsteve01]

Naive? You are saying there aren't other players that are looking to win THIS year because it effect their contracts? How about coaches? Does how we do this year effect their contract?

H56, I get that you want Tebow to play so badly that you aren't willing to look honestly at his faults, but now you think everyone that says anything negative about TT, or positive about Orton, is strictly out to do it for their own gain rather than just sharing an honest opinion??? Really? And you are alling ME naive??

This argument will never end....wow

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Naive? You are saying there aren't other players that are looking to win THIS year because it effect their contracts? How about coaches? Does how we do this year effect their contract?

H56, I get that you want Tebow to play so badly that you aren't willing to look honestly at his faults, but now you think everyone that says anything negative about TT, or positive about Orton, is strictly out to do it for their own gain rather than just sharing an honest opinion??? Really? And you are alling ME naive??

Like I said before, this has nothing to do with WINS. The stuff being spewed from Lloyd's mouth has to deal with HIM and HIS UPCOMING CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS. Period.

If Champ was calling for Orton to start because he thought it was the best way for the team to win games, maybe I'd listen. As long as it's a me-first WR trying to pick and choose the QB, I'm skeptical.

[Northman]

Sorry, have to agree with HP here. The fact that Lloyd had his first real season as a playmaker in a pass friendly offense really only means he is looking for a payday. I really dont think he gives a damn about wins/losses. Homeboy knows his time is running out in terms of a great contract so the sooner he gets it the better. If he has to play under a young QB finding his feet he will not get the kind of numbers he would get from Orton who seems to zone in on him anyway much like he did with Marshall. Of course, Marshall has consistently put up numbers with multiple QB's so there is the difference there.

[Ravage!!!]

Like I said before, this has nothing to do with WINS. The stuff being spewed from Lloyd's mouth has to deal with HIM and HIS UPCOMING CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS. Period.

If Champ was calling for Orton to start because he thought it was the best way for the team to win games, maybe I'd listen. As long as it's a me-first WR trying to pick and choose the QB, I'm skeptical.

I like champ, but you might want to pick another player to use as someone to listen to. Champ has supported whole heartedly ANYONE on the team. He talked HIGH about past DCs (can't rmember their name at the moment), and always was complimentary of McD. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

Like I said before, this has nothing to do with WINS. The stuff being spewed from Lloyd's mouth has to deal with HIM and HIS UPCOMING CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS. Period.

If Champ was calling for Orton to start because he thought it was the best way for the team to win games, maybe I'd listen. As long as it's a me-first WR trying to pick and choose the QB, I'm skeptical.


Sorry, have to agree with HP here. The fact that Lloyd had his first real season as a playmaker in a pass friendly offense really only means he is looking for a payday. I really dont think he gives a damn about wins/losses. Homeboy knows his time is running out in terms of a great contract so the sooner he gets it the better. If he has to play under a young QB finding his feet he will not get the kind of numbers he would get from Orton who seems to zone in on him anyway much like he did with Marshall. Of course, Marshall has consistently put up numbers with multiple QB's so there is the difference there.

I hear what you guys are saying, but you are both just guessing. 56, you are sooo strongly against Orton starting that it seems you aren't going to take a compliment about Orton, even from the players.

You have to actually see that its VERY possible that Lloyd is saying something positive about Orton, is because that's how he feels.

[Northman]

I hear what you guys are saying, but you are both just guessing. 56, you are sooo strongly against Orton starting that it seems you aren't going to take a compliment about Orton, even from the players.

You have to actually see that its VERY possible that Lloyd is saying something positive about Orton, is because that's how he feels.

Could be but not really likely, at least to me.

[vandammage13]

One thing I get sick and tired of hearing in this Orton vs Tebow debate is the blind assumption that you have a better chance to win with Orton... Orton won 3 games last year, 3!!! The guy has never even started a playoff game in 6 years. Where the hell does this school of thought come from?? I keep hearing this crap regurgitated on here and on TV, but I always wonder why because Orton has never shown himself to be worthy of that automatic assumption based on his career this far.

Tebow needs a lot of work, but we aren't doing crap with Orton as our qb anyway... Move on from this guy already

[Ravage!!!]

One thing I get sick and tired of hearing in this Orton vs Tebow debate is the blind assumption that you have a better chance to win with Orton... Orton won 3 games last year, 3!!! The guy has never even started a playoff game in 6 years. Where the he'll does this school of thought come from?? I keep hearing this crap regurgitated on here and on TV, but I always wonder why because Orton has never shown himself to be worthy of that automatic discussion based on his career this far.

Because 60% of playing QB isn't the physical throwing..its the mental part of the game. Tebow doesn't have that...yet. Orton obviously doesn't have the physical tools that Tebow does... BUT... Orton is the better passer. Tebow is an inaccurate passer that has a HARD time identifying coverages and never seems to find the second receiver (generally making one read and then dumping off). If thats what he's doing in practices, then its hard to believe he's going to transform into something different during games.

I don't think Orton is anything other than average as far as a QB. But right now, Tebow isn't showing that he can beat him out, and that says something as well. I think if it wasn't for Tebow's inability to read defenses/coverages and his inaccurate passing... Tebow would have narrowed that gap.

[chazoe60]

I wonder what the odds are that other teams have scouts watching Orton today at the open practice?

I know, I know. Wishfull thinking.

[vandammage13]

Because 60% of playing QB isn't the physical throwing..its the mental part of the game. Tebow doesn't have that...yet. Orton obviously doesn't have the physical tools that Tebow does... BUT... Orton is the better passer. Tebow is an inaccurate passer that has a HARD time identifying coverages and never seems to find the second receiver (generally making one read and then dumping off). If thats what he's doing in practices, then its hard to believe he's going to transform into something different during games.

I don't think Orton is anything other than average as far as a QB. But right now, Tebow isn't showing that he can beat him out, and that says something as well. I think if it wasn't for Tebow's inability to read defenses/coverages and his inaccurate passing... Tebow would have narrowed that gap.


I see what you are saying but the point I'm trying to make is orton is nothing special and I think most realize this... Heck it says something that the broncos couldn't dump him. No one wants him. Is he a better passer than TT right now?... Yes, but we know that orton is what he is and he's never taking us to the top. We don't really know what we have in tebow, but what he lacks in knowledge right now will be developed faster with him on the field. In the meantime tebow can still rely on his playmaking abilities to make up for his deficiencies while he learns. If he doesn't show a marked improvement by years end then make a decision whether to cut your losses and move on or not.

Orton is walking after this year anyway, so I'll be very discouraged if we waste another entire year on orton when the best he can do for us is maybe 8-8.

[Ravage!!!]

I wonder what the odds are that other teams have scouts watching Orton today at the open practice?

I know, I know. Wishfull thinking.

I wou ldn't be shocked to see Miami have someone there. I even think that Minnesota could still be viable IF McNabb gets hurt early.

The Broncos could trade Orton over to a team as they simply take over the contract that the Broncos have. Orton doesn't get a long term deal, but he gets paid the same as he's getting paid and doesn't take a pay cut. Someone like Minnesota (if McNabb gets hurt and I'm just using them as an example) might be willing to pay that for one year since they ahve the rookie on the roster anyway.

[Ravage!!!]

I see what you are saying but the point I'm trying to make is orton is nothing special and I think most realize this... Heck it says something that the broncos couldn't dump him. No one wants him. Is he a better passer than TT right now?... Yes, but we know that orton is what he is and he's never taking us to the top. We don't really know what we have in tebow, but what he lacks in knowledge right now will be developed faster with him on the field. In the meantime tebow can still rely on his playmaking abilities to make up for his deficiencies while he learns. If he doesn't show a marked improvement by years end then make a decision whether to cut your losses and move on or not.

Orton is walking after this year anyway, so I'll be very discouraged if we waste another entire year on orton when the best he can do for us is maybe 8-8.

I agree. I've been saying this all off season. However, what we don't know is that maybe Tebow is worse off than we realize. The fans may be thrilled to watch Tebow "turn a play" into a run up the sidelines, but the coaches are not happy because Tebow SHOULD have been able to make the simple read and hit the open receiver.

But I'm totally agreeing with you. I would much rather watch Tebow behind center than Orton. But the COACHES want to put the guy on the field that is making the right reads. Making the right reads and throwing the ball to the RIGHT guy is the BIGGEST part about success in teh NFL. Its the coaches that have to feel comfortable putting Tebow out there.

I also think we'll see Orton start the season, but will later on see Tebow in the lineup based on many things. Injury to Orton...losing... simply not getting it done. Whatever the case my be. But if they put Tebow in the line up NOW.. and Tebow fails.... thent he questions would be "why didn't we put in the better player while we had him on the roster?" Its a losing situation for the coaches because the fans are so "tebow" nutso.

[chazoe60]

Rav is 100% right. I disagree with him on the odds that Tebow can become a good to great NFL QB but he's absolutely right about the team having to start the best QB. As fans we see the long haul because we know we'll still be fans ina year, two, ten, twenty. Coaches and staff are treating this as their job, as they should. They suck it up and even a guy as well respected and liked as Fox could be tone in two years so we can't expect them to say "this is a gimme year lets just use it to see what we got in the young guys".

The only coaches that can do that kind of thing are guys very well entrenched in their jobs or coaches of teams who have been sucking for decades (lions, Bengals, Cards etc). It kinda goes with my mediocrity thread.

Now, with that said I look at the long haul. I want the QB with the best chance of winning us a SB the quickest to start. I don't see Orton ever winning us a SB. Tebow? Maybe and that is why I really want to see what the kid has. But, I completely understand why Fox and Co. don't see things that way.

I am of the opinion that it doesn't matter if Orton starts or not we will be seeing a fair amount of Tebow anyway. Orton has never finished a season and our schedule is brutal. I don't forsee Orton starting any more than 10 games and 10 is on the very high end.

[vandammage13]

Rav is 100% right. I disagree with him on the odds that Tebow can become a good to great NFL QB but he's absolutely right about the team having to start the best QB. As fans we see the long haul because we know we'll still be fans ina year, two, ten, twenty. Coaches and staff are treating this as their job, as they should. They suck it up and even a guy as well respected and liked as Fox could be tone in two years so we can't expect them to say "this is a gimme year lets just use it to see what we got in the young guys". SB. Tebow? Maybe and that is why I really want to see what the kid has. But, I completely understand why Fox and Co. don't see things that way.

I see things differently here as far as the coaches and FO operating for their jobs. I agree that the coaches only have a small window, which is why I wonder why they would waste a precious year on Orton. I think most would give Fox and the FO a pass if they started Tebow and he flopped in year one. I think they have more pressure on them if they start Orton because they will be expected to win more than with Tebow because Orton supposedly gives them the best chance.

So let's say they start Orton and we get the same mediocre results year one then they start tebow year two and he flops... Now you have two wasted years instead of one and guess what? Now you're on the hot seat.

Starting orton this year gives me no pass if the team struggles, but starting Tebow would. If I'm EFX and tebow fails then he's not my guy, I didn't draft him, and I distance myself from him... Hell, this is what the fans wanted and it just didn't work out. I get a pass and a clean slate year two.

[Canmore]

I see things differently here as far as the coaches and FO operating for their jobs. I agree that the coaches only have a small window, which is why I wonder why they would waste a precious year on Orton. I think most would give Fox and the FO a pass if they started Tebow and he flopped in year one. I think they have more pressure on them if they start Orton because they will be expected to win more than with Tebow because Orton supposedly gives them the best chance.

So let's say they start Orton and we get the same mediocre results year one then they start tebow year two and he flops... Now you have two wasted years instead of one and guess what? Now you're on the hot seat.

Starting orton this year gives me no pass if the team struggles, but starting Tebow would. If I'm EFX and tebow fails then he's not my guy, I didn't draft him, and I distance myself from him... Hell, this is what the fans wanted and it just didn't work out. I get a pass and a clean slate year two.

To me it doesn't matter what Orton does. Even if he lights it up, he still looks gone at the end of the year and we're back to square one. More than likely Kyle plays "average" and he's still gone at the end of the year. I'm willing to give EFX a pass if they start Tebow, heck that would even go for Quinn.

[Ravage!!!]

As fans we see the long haul because we know we'll still be fans ina year, two, ten, twenty. Coaches and staff are treating this as their job, as they should. They suck it up and even a guy as well respected and liked as Fox could be tone in two years so we can't expect them to say "this is a gimme year lets just use it to see what we got in the young guys".



This is the biggest thing :salute:

I think this is where people get the "he gives us the best chance to win now" perspective. As of right NOW, Orton can come on the field and not have that learning curve. Its a lot easier on a coach and OC when they don't have to limit the plays (or the playbook) based on the fact that the QB has trouble reading defenses. Limiting the reads and check-downs is very hard on an offense and REALLY relies on the defense (something we certainly can't afford to do).

I guess more than anything, I just want Tebow to flat outplay Orton and take the job.

[Canmore]

This is the biggest thing :salute:

I think this is where people get the "he gives us the best chance to win now" perspective. As of right NOW, Orton can come on the field and not have that learning curve. Its a lot easier on a coach and OC when they don't have to limit the plays (or the playbook) based on the fact that the QB has trouble reading defenses. Limiting the reads and check-downs is very hard on an offense and REALLY relies on the defense (something we certainly can't afford to do).

I guess more than anything, I just want Tebow to flat outplay Orton and take the job.

That's two of us. Here's hoping Tebow lights it up during the preseason games. :beer:

[Northman]

Originally Posted by chazoe60 http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1320089#post1320089)
As fans we see the long haul because we know we'll still be fans ina year, two, ten, twenty. Coaches and staff are treating this as their job, as they should. They suck it up and even a guy as well respected and liked as Fox could be tone in two years so we can't expect them to say "this is a gimme year lets just use it to see what we got in the young guys". Unfortuantely, i hate that philosophy and viewpoint. I understand it but to me this doesnt fit what i want out of my organization. 9 times out of 10 the coaches who win multiple SB's are with their respective teams for a decade or more. Sure, you get the guys like Brian Billick or even John Gruden who make it happen for one year. But your right, im going to be here for the long haul and i want a coach who is looking at it that way as well. I wont be mad if we win a SB with Fox in the next 3 years, but i would rather win 3-4 or them in the next decade.