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Bugs Baloney
08-03-2011, 08:41 PM
tweet from Tebow:

Hey Merril...... 'ppreciate that :eek:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/08/03/tim-tebow-vs-merril-hodge/8666/

I Eat Staples
08-03-2011, 08:54 PM
I agree with everything Hodge said. What was so bad about it? Tebow does have a ridiculous throwing motion and isn't anywhere close to being a QB.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-03-2011, 09:07 PM
On the fan this afternoon

http://www.1043thefan.com/Channels/thedrive/Story.aspx?ID=1473664

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 09:08 PM
I agree with everything Hodge said. What was so bad about it? Tebow does have a ridiculous throwing motion and isn't anywhere close to being a QB.

But he somehow averaged more points per game than Orton... One of those games vs the #1 defense in the league.

Who gives a flying **** about throwing motion? Scoring points is what counts. Tebow scores more points... period.

underrated29
08-03-2011, 09:09 PM
I agree with everything Hodge said. What was so bad about it? Tebow does have a ridiculous throwing motion and isn't anywhere close to being a QB.

So far everything Tebow has done in his life except for 4the days of training camp disagree with you. Actually they are beating you over the head with and axe

sneakers
08-03-2011, 09:17 PM
Merril Hodge is a homosexual.

rationalfan
08-03-2011, 09:20 PM
Merril Hodge is a homosexual.

Nice. Way to defy all those stereotypes about football fans.

I Eat Staples
08-03-2011, 09:22 PM
But he somehow averaged more points per game than Orton... One of those games vs the #1 defense in the league.

Who gives a flying **** about throwing motion? Scoring points is what counts. Tebow scores more points... period.

If you think so badly of Orton, Tebow scoring more points than him shouldn't be enough to impress you. I think Orton is decent but he isn't a franchise QB. Thing is, Tebow won't be either. We need one badly.

We were out of the game in the 4th quarter against San Diego, who's defense had a fluke year anyway. If Orton would have scored those late points everyone would have said he did it in garbage time.


So far everything Tebow has done in his life except for 4the days of training camp disagree with you. Actually they are beating you over the head with and axe

I only care about what he's done in a Broncos uniform. You guys hate Orton so much that you loved seeing Tebow play simply because he wasn't Orton. That's fine, but being realistic, Tebow looked really bad in his 3 games outside of a few plays. He looked like a fullback throwing the ball.

And actually, what he did in college is what lead me to the conclusion that he can't make it in the NFL. You'll see that I'm right eventually.

BeefStew25
08-03-2011, 09:23 PM
Nice. Way to defy all those stereotypes about football fans.

I am gay, and that doesn't offend me one bit. Merril Hoge and I had a beautiful weekend in Cabo a couple years ago.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:25 PM
Merrill says things other people won't. Doesn't make them not true.

Dzone
08-03-2011, 09:26 PM
I agree with everything Hodge said. What was so bad about it? Tebow does have a ridiculous throwing motion and isn't anywhere close to being a QB.
Hmmm, Tebow isnt anywhere close to being a QB? Really?

nevcraw
08-03-2011, 09:27 PM
I agree with everything Hodge said. What was so bad about it? Tebow does have a ridiculous throwing motion and isn't anywhere close to being a QB.

WOW! The merrill hodge? I remember him when people actually listened to his opnion..

Must be awfully lonely for him on ESPN 17 -- you know -- wedging his diamond cutting NFL insight with Jack russell sled pulling and 3 card monty.

SR
08-03-2011, 09:30 PM
Nice. Way to defy all those stereotypes about football fans.

Stereotypes are all we have to live by.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:31 PM
Hmmm, Tebow isnt anywhere close to being a QB? Really?

Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

Bugs Baloney
08-03-2011, 09:34 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

Boooooo! ;)

compucomp
08-03-2011, 09:35 PM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

rationalfan
08-03-2011, 09:35 PM
I am gay, and that doesn't offend me one bit. Merril Hoge and I had a beautiful weekend in Cabo a couple years ago.

Well, I'm a tiger and your avatar doesn't offend me. But it doesn't mean it's right.

BeefStew25
08-03-2011, 09:38 PM
Well, I'm a tiger and your avatar doesn't offend me. But it doesn't mean it's right.

Yeah, but you are a total puss.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:38 PM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

McDaniels knows offense. I know I'll get ripped for this, but I think was an utter mistake by Bowlen to allow McDaniels to draft such a polarizing figure, with such a flawed mechanical delivery without giving him the full opportunity to work with him.

I'll stop there, but clearly McDaniels saw something, and now, we'll never know what that was.

BeefStew25
08-03-2011, 09:38 PM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

That makes some damn good sense. McD's stank reaches everywhere.

nevcraw
08-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

second string is now is scout team? Brady Quinn played at Minn.? merril hoge has meaningful opinion?

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:43 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

second string is now is scout team? Brady Quinn played at Minn.? merril hoge has meaningful opinion?

According to camp reports, Brady Quinn is running ahead of Tebow is who running, essentially, the third team offense, sharing snaps with Weber, the former quarterback at Minnesota.

I'm sorry Merrill Hoge has hurt you with the reality of Tebow's flaws. Would an ice cream cone make you feel better?

Denver Native (Carol)
08-03-2011, 09:45 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

Recap from today's practice:


Tim Tebow — Worked the No. 2 offense for the most, moved the team in two-minute drill, finishing with scoring pass to Britt Davis.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18611444

broncofaninfla
08-03-2011, 09:52 PM
LMFAO!!!! NONE of the QB's has seen live action yet thei season and we're already declaring a blow out win for Orton?!? Did you guys not watch the games last year? I'll take live action play against powder puff practice (thx to the new CBA). Orton can throw it with the best of them..........when he has ample time to do so. But give him some pressure and he folds like a little girl running from a spider. The reality of the NFL is you don't get ample time to throw the football. When a play breaks down Orton folds, we don't convert, score etc...

I watched two QB's play last year with REAL LIVE GAME REPS. I saw all I need to see of Orton, I want to see what the other two can do. I LOVED the intangbles od Tebow last year and think we would be foolish not to tailor an offense around his skills. But I also want to see Quinn and see what he can do.

If practice determines Denvers starter then I feel we will be a weaker team as a result. If not I guarentee Orton will be replaced at some point this season when he continues to play like "Orton".

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:52 PM
Recap from today's practice:



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18611444

Thanks for the report, Carol. He's being given a fair shot. So far he hasn't beat out Quinn for second string, so let's call him 2B, since Quinn has thusfar had more snaps with the second team offense.

nevcraw
08-03-2011, 09:53 PM
Recap from today's practice:



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18611444

Make that a banana split Motoboat!

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:55 PM
LMFAO!!!! NONE of the QB's has seen live action yet thei season and we're already declaring a blow out win for Orton?!? Did you guys not watch the games last year? I'll take live action play against powder puff practice (thx to the new CBA). Orton can throw it with the best of them..........when he has ample time to do so. But give him some pressure and he folds like a little girl running from a spider. The reality of the NFL is you don't get ample time to throw the football. When a play breaks down Orton folds, we don't convert, score etc...

I watched two QB's play last year with REAL LIVE GAME REPS. I saw all I need to see of Orton, I want to see what the other two can do. I LOVED the intangbles od Tebow last year and think we would be foolish not to tailor an offense around his skills. But I also want to see Quinn and see what he can do.

If practice determines Denvers starter then I feel we will be a weaker team as a result. If not I guarentee Orton will be replaced at some point this season when he continues to play like "Orton".

Yeah, I mean why practice at all. It's obviously pretty pointless.

:elefant:

underrated29
08-03-2011, 09:55 PM
If you think so badly of Orton, Tebow scoring more points than him shouldn't be enough to impress you. I think Orton is decent but he isn't a franchise QB. Thing is, Tebow won't be either. We need one badly.

We were out of the game in the 4th quarter against San Diego, who's defense had a fluke year anyway. If Orton would have scored those late points everyone would have said he did it in garbage time.



I only care about what he's done in a Broncos uniform. You guys hate Orton so much that you loved seeing Tebow play simply because he wasn't Orton. That's fine, but being realistic, Tebow looked really bad in his 3 games outside of a few plays. He looked like a fullback throwing the ball.

And actually, what he did in college is what lead me to the conclusion that he can't make it in the NFL. You'll see that I'm right eventually.


Take orton last 3 games and Tebow s last 3 games and compare them. Tebow did better. BY a long shot! Im only talking nfl here. I don't hate orton, I like him, I thought he'd do really well last year and he didn't do too bad but still he did not excite and give us a chance to win like tummy. Tebow had about half the stats orton did while playing 95%o fewer snaps...Tebow did better and wins better and it matters not if he is taking a dump while he throws the football and then scratches his nuts or looks like mike alstat or the dam queen of england the only thing that matters are points and wins.

Tebow in a whopping three starts as an unpolished rookie is owning in those two categories.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 09:56 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

And yet with all those flaws, he still managed to lead the Broncos to a higher PPG average...

You folks need to stop believing what you read and hear from all the media talking head dumbasses who are all just repeating what one of their peers has said. Strange how Lloyd's production didn't drop at all in those games with Tebow? Moreso, Mr TerribleThrowingMotion also managed over 300 yards PASSING in one of those games.

Phillip Rivers has an awful throwing motion, Favre's wind up was almost as bad as Tebow's, and Bernie Kosar looked like hell when he threw the football. It meant squat. Most rookies struggle with accuracy and it's more about reps and timing more than true accuracy problems.

I would hope Orton looks better standing there, planting his feet and delivering the ball as he has for the past 8 years. The difference is, when the blitz is on, Orton cannot escape pressure and make a play. If he is flushed from the pocket or even forced to "slide" his accuracy and throwing power go to absolute shit and the ball ends up in the dirt or in the other team's hands more often than not.

The Denver Broncos fans WILL NOT tolerate a QB who isn't a playmaker. Griese wasn't so he was let go. Plummer, for all his faults, was a gamer who could extend the play so he was accepted and supported until his interception percentage started getting ridiculous. Orton better hope our defense rivals the '85 Bears because if not, he's going to be one miserable SOB this season.

nevcraw
08-03-2011, 09:57 PM
Thanks for the report, Carol. He's being given a fair shot. So far he hasn't beat out Quinn for second string, so let's call him 2B, since Quinn has thusfar had more snaps with the second team offense.
dude -- give it up. they have been splitting reps. your symantics of number of snaps is fooling nobody. except Hogey.. wasn't he on Johnny quest?

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 09:59 PM
Make that a banana split Motoboat!

Seven days of practice, he finally gets one with the twos, and somehow this proves he's not third string right now?

Right....

Like I said, glad Fox is giving him a fair shot, but its probably not going to turn out how many want it to.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 10:03 PM
And yet with all those flaws, he still managed to lead the Broncos to a higher PPG average...

You folks need to stop believing what you read and hear from all the media talking head dumbasses who are all just repeating what one of their peers has said. Strange how Lloyd's production didn't drop at all in those games with Tebow? Moreso, Mr TerribleThrowingMotion also managed over 300 yards PASSING in one of those games.

Phillip Rivers has an awful throwing motion, Favre's wind up was almost as bad as Tebow's, and Bernie Kosar looked like hell when he threw the football. It meant squat. Most rookies struggle with accuracy and it's more about reps and timing more than true accuracy problems.

I would hope Orton looks better standing there, planting his feet and delivering the ball as he has for the past 8 years. The difference is, when the blitz is on, Orton cannot escape pressure and make a play. If he is flushed from the pocket or even forced to "slide" his accuracy and throwing power go to absolute shit and the ball ends up in the dirt or in the other team's hands more often than not.

The Denver Broncos fans WILL NOT tolerate a QB who isn't a playmaker. Griese wasn't so he was let go. Plummer, for all his faults, was a gamer who could extend the play so he was accepted and supported until his interception percentage started getting ridiculous. Orton better hope our defense rivals the '85 Bears because if not, he's going to be one miserable SOB this season.

You're right. I should totally disregard the fact that he didn't even complete 50 percent of his passes last year. You know, playmakers include players that can make a routine read and routine throw. Right now, he can't do that. I'm sorry this is upsetting to you.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:04 PM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

Just because McDaniels was the worst coach in Broncos history and we hate him doesn't mean there's some rule that we must hate every player he brought in.

I don't hate Kyle Orton because McDaniels brought him in, I hate him because he sucks and because he blocked a trade that would've brought us a 2nd round pick.

Davii
08-03-2011, 10:08 PM
We shall see where Tebow stands once the preseason games get rolling. If he moves the offense well then who really gives a damn what the throwing motion looks like?

Tned
08-03-2011, 10:10 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

The updates I've been reading has been that other than day one, when Quinn was running two, Tebow has been 2nd QB in, running with 2nd team pretty much all of the time.

Dzone
08-03-2011, 10:10 PM
Similarly, Kevin Kolb won the starting job in Philly in 2010 until Clay Matthews gave him a concussion. Nobody expected Vick to come in and play the way he did.
Ortons lack of mobility increases his chances of serious injury. He wont even see it coming. Sad but true. Quinn or Tebow had better be ready to go in and take over.

Jsteve01
08-03-2011, 10:11 PM
Just because McDaniels was the worst coach in Broncos history and we hate him doesn't mean there's some rule that we must hate every player he brought in.

I don't hate Kyle Orton because McDaniels brought him in, I hate him because he sucks and because he blocked a trade that would've brought us a 2nd round pick.

who cares what the fan base says? If we're winning it doesn't matter. It's never been about Tebow's throwing motion. I could care less about that even though it opens him up to being hit more. His problem right now as we speak is accuracy. If that doesn't improve he'll never be more than a system or package qb

I Eat Staples
08-03-2011, 10:11 PM
Take orton last 3 games and Tebow s last 3 games and compare them. Tebow did better. BY a long shot! Im only talking nfl here. I don't hate orton, I like him, I thought he'd do really well last year and he didn't do too bad but still he did not excite and give us a chance to win like tummy. Tebow had about half the stats orton did while playing 95%o fewer snaps...Tebow did better and wins better and it matters not if he is taking a dump while he throws the football and then scratches his nuts or looks like mike alstat or the dam queen of england the only thing that matters are points and wins.

Tebow in a whopping three starts as an unpolished rookie is owning in those two categories.

You're right, I don't care about the visual aspect of Tebow's throwing motion. I care that he has a very slow release and he's not accurate at all. Also, every time a play broke down, he resorted to scrambling. Its great if he can pick up a key first down on the ground, but he's going to get killed. He got himself injured in a preseason game getting hit by practice squad players. Imagine someone like Ray Lewis or Ed Reed.

Not to mention his poor footwork and inability to read defenses.

Tned
08-03-2011, 10:12 PM
Also, I think this is the Hodge interview on 104.3 where he rips Tebow's game apart:

http://bit.ly/qnsmkY

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:14 PM
You're right. I should totally disregard the fact that he didn't even complete 50 percent of his passes last year. You know, playmakers include players that can make a routine read and routine throw. Right now, he can't do that. I'm sorry this is upsetting to you.

Or you could realize he was a rookie that even with ZERO reps, one week of prep time before his first start, and only a 50% completion percentage, he still had a better QB rating than the #1 overall pick who has "great" mechanics...

I know I'm not convincing anyone and I'm okay with that, but logic dictates that you'd want the guy who scores the most points in the average game and the guy who if there is a breakdown in the running game or blocking scheme still gives you a chance to pick up a first down and keep drives alive.

Folks are focusing way too heavy on completion % and not on TDs scored. I can throw 3, 1 yard passes and get a 3/3 100% completion percentage (i.e. exactly how Sam "3 yard pass" Bradford racked up his high completion percentage comparative to his yards, TDs, and the rest of his QB rating) but it doesn't mean I'm not punting.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 10:14 PM
The updates I've been reading has been that other than day one, when Quinn was running two, Tebow has been 2nd QB in, running with 2nd team pretty much all of the time.

Maybe I've misinterpreted what I've read from Cecil Lammey, but it appeared to me he was running with the threes, and was very unimpressive at that. My bad if that's the case. I still wish, if I had my way, he'd actually be pushing Orton. He's not, and Hoge's criticisms speak volumes, unfortunately.

Tned
08-03-2011, 10:19 PM
Maybe I've misinterpreted what I've read from Cecil Lammey, but it appeared to me he was running with the threes, and was very unimpressive at that. My bad if that's the case. I still wish, if I had my way, he'd actually be pushing Orton. He's not, and Hoge's criticisms speak volumes, unfortunately.

I agree there is no indication he is close to pushing Orton, that much is true. I also may have read things wrong, but my reading is that he's been coming in before Quinn for the most part after the first practice.

I Eat Staples
08-03-2011, 10:20 PM
Listened to the interview. Why are people mad at Hoge for this? Do you think he made this stuff up? He's absolutely right about everything he said.

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:22 PM
Or you could realize he was a rookie that even with ZERO reps, one week of prep time before his first start, and only a 50% completion percentage, he still had a better QB rating than the #1 overall pick who has "great" mechanics...

I know I'm not convincing anyone and I'm okay with that, but logic dictates that you'd want the guy who scores the most points in the average game and the guy who if there is a breakdown in the running game or blocking scheme still gives you a chance to pick up a first down and keep drives alive.

Folks are focusing way too heavy on completion % and not on TDs scored. I can throw 3, 1 yard passes and get a 3/3 100% completion percentage (i.e. exactly how Sam "3 yard pass" Bradford racked up his high completion percentage comparative to his yards, TDs, and the rest of his QB rating) but it doesn't mean I'm not punting.

No. I think you have put WAYYYYYYY Wayyyyy WAYYYYYYY tooo much stock in those three games and actually believe they give a sizable sample. Coaches and players aren't watching Tebow at practice and saying "Yeah, hea may not be accurate, and he may not make the right read.. he can't recognize the blocking calls, or look off the safety....but those three games last year he score more points per game than Orton."

Uhmm.. no. That means diddly. Three game sample, means squat. If Tebow was better, he would be able to prove it day in and day out... at practice. Tebow is getting the same amount of pressure (or lack thereof) as Orton is. If he cant make the right throws, the accurate throws, or to the right receiver when the defense is just 7 on 7, then the coaches aren't going to believe he can do it when defenses are intentionally going to confuse him.

This is the problem. Tebow absolutely should be able to PROVE he's better than Orton is... on the field. If he can't do it in practice, then NO ONE is going to start him. He has to narrow the margin between he and Orton before he'll get serious consideration to start. Its pretty simple.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:23 PM
You're right, I don't care about the visual aspect of Tebow's throwing motion. I care that he has a very slow release and he's not accurate at all. Also, every time a play broke down, he resorted to scrambling. Its great if he can pick up a key first down on the ground, but he's going to get killed. He got himself injured in a preseason game getting hit by practice squad players. Imagine someone like Ray Lewis or Ed Reed.

Not to mention his poor footwork and inability to read defenses.

Wait, what? You going to ding Tebow for getting injured during a pre-season game? For the potential that he might take big hits in games when he scrambles? When Tebow runs, he controls who hits him and can lower his pads and brace for the hit better or slide than Orton who can't even sidestep the rush and gets murdered/blindsided back there every game usually because he holds the ball too damned long. That is, until he gets gun-shy and starts the phantom sack/fainting goat routine.

Which QB hasn't finished a 16 game season in 7 years and is always hurt in some fashion or another (finger, ribs, ankles)? You're going to argue potential injuries between Tebow (who has never missed a regular season start in his football career due to injury) and Orton? :confused:

Really, which guy is more likely to get hurt? Think about it.

broncofaninfla
08-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Yeah, I mean why practice at all. It's obviously pretty pointless.

:elefant:

How ignorant do you have to be to get that out of what I said? There are pratice players all over the NFL. Live rep play trumps practice play. I saw live rep play last year and Tebwo trumped Orton. I've seen all I need to see of Orton, I'm ready to see Tebow and Quinn and maybe even Weber. Let Orton fold when it matters the most for some other team, I'm sick of seeing it here....

broncobryce
08-03-2011, 10:28 PM
And yet with all those flaws, he still managed to lead the Broncos to a higher PPG average...

You folks need to stop believing what you read and hear from all the media talking head dumbasses who are all just repeating what one of their peers has said. Strange how Lloyd's production didn't drop at all in those games with Tebow? Moreso, Mr TerribleThrowingMotion also managed over 300 yards PASSING in one of those games.

Phillip Rivers has an awful throwing motion, Favre's wind up was almost as bad as Tebow's, and Bernie Kosar looked like hell when he threw the football. It meant squat. Most rookies struggle with accuracy and it's more about reps and timing more than true accuracy problems.

I would hope Orton looks better standing there, planting his feet and delivering the ball as he has for the past 8 years. The difference is, when the blitz is on, Orton cannot escape pressure and make a play. If he is flushed from the pocket or even forced to "slide" his accuracy and throwing power go to absolute shit and the ball ends up in the dirt or in the other team's hands more often than not.

The Denver Broncos fans WILL NOT tolerate a QB who isn't a playmaker. Griese wasn't so he was let go. Plummer, for all his faults, was a gamer who could extend the play so he was accepted and supported until his interception percentage started getting ridiculous. Orton better hope our defense rivals the '85 Bears because if not, he's going to be one miserable SOB this season.

Yep. People read a few articles about practice and act like they weren't bitching and moaning last season that orton is garbage, only good in garbage time. Now he's awesome? Short memory.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:28 PM
No. I think you have put WAYYYYYYY Wayyyyy WAYYYYYYY tooo much stock in those three games and actually believe they give a sizable sample. Coaches and players aren't watching Tebow at practice and saying "Yeah, hea may not be accurate, and he may not make the right read.. he can't recognize the blocking calls, or look off the safety....but those three games last year he score more points per game than Orton."

Uhmm.. no. That means diddly. Three game sample, means squat. If Tebow was better, he would be able to prove it day in and day out... at practice. Tebow is getting the same amount of pressure (or lack thereof) as Orton is. If he cant make the right throws, the accurate throws, or to the right receiver when the defense is just 7 on 7, then the coaches aren't going to believe he can do it when defenses are intentionally going to confuse him.

This is the problem. Tebow absolutely should be able to PROVE he's better than Orton is... on the field. If he can't do it in practice, then NO ONE is going to start him. He has to narrow the margin between he and Orton before he'll get serious consideration to start. Its pretty simple.

Still... points are points. It really is a shame that the QBs are allowed to wear a no contact jersey in practice. I'd like to see one practice where they take them off and let Doom, Ayers, Von, etc get their shots in. I think a lot of folks would change their opinion of how well Orton is doing when there are guys out there trying, and succeeding, at ripping his head off and knocking him down every play. I guarantee you he wouldn't be looking so "polished".

WARHORSE
08-03-2011, 10:29 PM
I dont like Hoge because all he did was pick apart Tims flaws to this point.


But I dont have any problem with him voicing his opinions, and Tebow needs to show he can handle it anyways cause this wont be the last guy to say something detrimental about Tebow.


Besides, what Hoge said was true....but he just decided to leave alot out.



Like the redzone production, third down conversions, etc, etc.


BUT HONESTLY? Im glad he did it, because its true. Tebows accuracy needs work.

Tebow saw it, and believe me, hes on a mission to improve his accuracy without a doubt.


I think its good that the topic changed specifically from footwork/delivery problems, to accuracy problems, cause I honestly think Tebow focuses on the former.


While those things have alot to do with accuracy, in the end its about knowing your body, and how to get the ball where it needs to go, how it needs to go.


Sometimes that cant be done without proper footwork, but sometimes it can.

You have to know your limits and abilities.

I Eat Staples
08-03-2011, 10:29 PM
Wait, what? You going to ding Tebow for getting injured during a pre-season game? For the potential that he might take big hits in games when he scrambles? When Tebow runs, he controls who hits him and can lower his pads and brace for the hit better or slide than Orton who can't even sidestep the rush and gets murdered/blindsided back there every game usually because he holds the ball too damned long. That is, until he gets gun-shy and starts the phantom sack/fainting goat routine.

Which QB hasn't finished a 16 game season in 7 years and is always hurt in some fashion or another (finger, ribs, ankles)? You're going to argue potential injuries between Tebow (who has never missed a regular season start in his football career due to injury) and Orton? :confused:

Really, which guy is more likely to get hurt? Think about it.

Any QB who runs like Tebow will get injured. Take Vick for example, amazing athlete, but he gets the shit knocked out of him every game. You can't compare it to Orton. Orton is just fragile. Tebow isn't fragile, but any QB who runs that much is going to get hurt.

Of course, none of this even matters until he shows he can hit a receiver in stride from the pocket.

Jsteve01
08-03-2011, 10:30 PM
well said war...good to see ya

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:32 PM
Still... points are points. It really is a shame that the QBs are allowed to wear a no contact jersey in practice. I'd like to see one practice where they take them off and let Doom, Ayers, Von, etc get their shots in. I think a lot of folks would change their opinion of how well Orton is doing when there are guys out there trying, and succeeding, at ripping his head off and knocking him down every play. I guarantee you he wouldn't be looking so "polished".

You do realize that there are more things going on than just standing there and making the throw. Coaches are looking at reading the defense, hitting the WR in the right space of the zone, identifying where the coverage is (or the blitze).. being able to move blockers to teh right areas, and not onlly throw TO the right receiver, but actually hit him.

I don't think that being able to shrug off a blitzing DE is the thing people are talking about with Tebow. Its his THROWING, his reading, and his accuracy. All the things that make up the most important parts of QBing.

Davii
08-03-2011, 10:32 PM
"@MaxBroncos: Both Tebow and Orton led 2nd and 1st team offenses, respectively, to touchdowns in the 2:00 drill period."

Just FYI Quinn ended the drill on third team with an INT

nevcraw
08-03-2011, 10:34 PM
3 games and 7 practices - does not a career make. I will wait until the dusts settles on this year and most likley the next few before ultimatley deciding on what or who Tebow is as a QB. I expect it from posters and fans but screw the ex-players and so called experts who are too busy wanting to hear there names mentioned in the hoopla instead of reasonable reporting.
Hardly suprised Orton is with the first team -- although for the sake of excitement non-predictability I sure wish it was Orton battling with Quinn for the 2nd spot and not Tebow.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 10:35 PM
How ignorant do you have to be to get that out of what I said? There are pratice players all over the NFL. Live rep play trumps practice play. I saw live rep play last year and Tebwo trumped Orton. I've seen all I need to see of Orton, I'm ready to see Tebow and Quinn and maybe even Weber. Let Orton fold when it matters the most for some other team, I'm sick of seeing it here....

I saw live rep play too. Tebow wasn't as good as you want him to be.

Tell me more about ignorance.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:36 PM
Any QB who runs like Tebow will get injured. Take Vick for example, amazing athlete, but he gets the shit knocked out of him every game. You can't compare it to Orton. Orton is just fragile. Tebow isn't fragile, but any QB who runs that much is going to get hurt.

Of course, none of this even matters until he shows he can hit a receiver in stride from the pocket.

And any QB who stands there like a deer in the headlights in going to get hurt, too. Elway scrambled for the Broncos quite often and didn't get hurt much. I'm not talking every other play is Tebow on a designed QB draw, just his escape ability under pressure.

Riddle me this, after the Oakland game, how many "big hits" did Tebow take? I can think of one during the Houston game when he was hit by Roid Rage Cushing, but after that, he'd step out of bounds or throw the ball away. I don't remember any big hits in the SD game. He learned and got better about avoiding the big hits. Orton just stands there and gets blasted.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:37 PM
I saw live rep play too. Tebow wasn't as good as you want him to be.

Tell me more about ignorance.

You're right, we're dumb, go Orton...

4-12 here we come again.

Jsteve01
08-03-2011, 10:37 PM
wierd thing....says here playing qb is at the end of the day about....wait for it....throwing the football. If you can't do that accurately then you can't be an NFL qb and if one more person brings up gawdy stats from the spread at Florida throwing to to NFL caliber players and playing behind the best o line in the game then I'll puke.

I want Tebow to make it. I promise i do, but should he get the job just because he has moxy? no way again that's the way you lose a locker room. People love his draw it in the dirt rah rah line for a while but I'll tell you what. Hang your receivers out a few times, blow drives with inaccuracy and watch how far that stuff gets you with the vets on the team.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-03-2011, 10:42 PM
The updates I've been reading has been that other than day one, when Quinn was running two, Tebow has been 2nd QB in, running with 2nd team pretty much all of the time.

I think that is accurate

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 10:43 PM
You do realize that there are more things going on than just standing there and making the throw. Coaches are looking at reading the defense, hitting the WR in the right space of the zone, identifying where the coverage is (or the blitze).. being able to move blockers to teh right areas, and not onlly throw TO the right receiver, but actually hit him.

I don't think that being able to shrug off a blitzing DE is the thing people are talking about with Tebow. Its his THROWING, his reading, and his accuracy. All the things that make up the most important parts of QBing.

You do know that Orton has been throwing a shitload of picks in practice, don't you? They are typically glossed over as a "good play for the defense" but they are happening. He gets "sacked" quite a bit, too but they let the play continue because there is no contact on the QBs so he throws a TD bomb to Lloyd 3 seconds after he would've been sacked and looks like the hero.

Don't believe everything you read about camp reports, either. If you believe Cecil Lammey, Jeremiah Johnson is the second coming of TD and should be our starter this year at RB. Everyone writing the reports has his or her own horse in this race and depending on whose shit you read, you get a different slant. I can't wait to see our guys in preseason.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 10:46 PM
You're right, we're dumb, go Orton...

4-12 here we come again.

Hey, if you think that the only result of this year, if Orton is starting, is last year's result, I'm not the ignorant one.

NorCalBronco7
08-03-2011, 10:48 PM
Thanks a lot Carol. :salute:

Im torn about Tebow. He has everything a fan could ever want in terms of intagibles and athleticism, but he has horrible machanics/footwork, inaccurate, inexperienced under center and zero work ethic (just kidding, calm down you hater).

The 3 games Tebow played showed me he was a gamer at this level. But it also proved the issues he had coming out of college were very real. If Tebow starts, great. Id love to watch him get experience and see what hes really about over a seasons time. But if he doesnt, Im fine with that too because he still has lots to learn about the NFL game.

Basically, Im incredibly indecisive and dont have the nuts to reasonably justify what he will become. One thing Im sure of, however, is its going to be fun to watch.

BigDaddyBronco
08-03-2011, 10:48 PM
Tebow should have asked Hoge if he still had trouble finding his way home...

Have the headaches stopped Merill...

Dzone
08-03-2011, 10:49 PM
Orton is more likely to suffer a serious injury than Tebow. Especially because he cant move
Basic Newtonian mechanics apply: F=MxA...I saw this on that Sports Science show on TV...LOL..somethin like that..

Tned
08-03-2011, 11:01 PM
From today's practice:


RT @cecillammey: Quinn did get reps behind Tebow today, but I wouldn't read too much into that, 2nd team reps split evenly for the most part

HORSEPOWER 56
08-03-2011, 11:02 PM
Hey, if you think that the only result of this year, if Orton is starting, is last year's result, I'm not the ignorant one.

Just trying to live up to the brand you've placed on those of us that thought Tebow looked pretty good in his first three starts and would like to see more. But hey, I'm the ignorant one who hates 3 and outs and phantom sacks.

Oh, and I really hate those pesky high ankle sprains! Damn you D-line for falling on ankles while sacking a certain QB!

Tned
08-03-2011, 11:05 PM
Come on guys, I think we can all agree or disagree without making it personal.

MOtorboat
08-03-2011, 11:07 PM
Just out of curiousity, Moreno has been frequently considered a bust, despite running with and performing with the first team in his first season and subsequent second season. And performing in the role in real games.

Tebow barely can break second team and when he does, he shares time, and his performance was fairly sub par when he got in the game (under 50 percent completion percentage, bad QB rating, 1-2 record)...does that make Tebow a bust?

hamrob
08-03-2011, 11:13 PM
what's crazy about this Orton/Tebow debate so far, is that they haven't played a preseason game yet.

When they do, Orton will be with the 1's and Tebow with the 2's, so it still won't be apples to apples...but, at least we'll get to see how they perform in a game situation.

Until at least the first two preseason games, I would be cautious about making any predictions.

To me: John Fox = Dan Reaves

Same type of coach, run, run, pass, punt. Repeat, Repeat...now, I need someone to make a play.

That style of football is not tailored made for Kyle Orton. Why? Because Orton sucks on 3rd down or when the pressure is on and he has to make a play. Orton is more of a big yards on 1st and 2nd down guy. He's fine when he has a lead and can protect the football...but, rely on him to lead you to a win. Not going to happen very often.

Tim Tebow, is a playmaker (despite his flawed mechanics). You need 7yds when it counts...give me Tebow. Even considering he's only played 3 NFL games...I'd take Tebow any day every day over Orton in pressure situations.

I don't know if Tebow is our QB of the future.

One thing I do know...........Kyle Orton isn't!

WARHORSE
08-03-2011, 11:16 PM
Tebow, not Orton, needed offseason work.

The lockout killed Tebow, while helped Orton. For now.


Tebows is working his butt off, doing drops, etc, etc..............


With no coach, but substituted probably a physical trainer type.



Then he walks into training camp.....no work.....only throwing passes to receivers.........and looks terrible.


Does that seem at all suprising?


Tebow needs work, but he needs HELP more than work. He did not get that help this offseason.


If he has to sit some more, then so be it. Lets be patient and let Kyle do his job, afterall isnt he a stopgap?


One thing to note.....IF our running game gets on track this season, Orton will be a different QB. Playaction is something hes very good at, and with a good running game, all of a sudden those third downs are easier to come by.




Orton fits right into Foxs type of offenses.


BUT.......if he shows once again that he cant get it done on third down.......I know someone who can.:coffee:

hamrob
08-03-2011, 11:20 PM
Just out of curiousity, Moreno has been frequently considered a bust, despite running with and performing with the first team in his first season and subsequent second season. And performing in the role in real games.

Tebow barely can break second team and when he does, he shares time, and his performance was fairly sub par when he got in the game (under 50 percent completion percentage, bad QB rating, 1-2 record)...does that make Tebow a bust?Dude, you are too funny. Kyle Orton could have been had for a 3rd round pick from anyone willing to give it to us. Who came calling? Nobody. Not a one.

Look what AZ gave up for Kolb...who has the better stats, Orto or Kolb?

Why weren't teams beating down our doors? Because, Kyle Orton is extremely ordinary. So, what if he's look good in practice. How will he perform on Sunday's? Obviously, 31 other teams feel they have a better player behind center then we do.

Orton is not the answer for the Denver Broncos. Thus, logic would tell anyone...play the young kid...see what he can do.

If he fails, so what. Then you draft one of the 4 studs coming out next year. You find out that you need to move on.

Instead we will play Orton, go 8-8, he's gone next year........and then, we have to decide is it worth giving Tebow a shot...or do we draft a kid and start all over. Let's find out now! We really have little to lose.

chazoe60
08-03-2011, 11:20 PM
Are we still talking about what Ol' Puddin' Head was blabbering about? :laugh:


Ol' Puddin' Head. :laugh:

Tned
08-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Just out of curiousity, Moreno has been frequently considered a bust, despite running with and performing with the first team in his first season and subsequent second season. And performing in the role in real games.

Tebow barely can break second team and when he does, he shares time, and his performance was fairly sub par when he got in the game (under 50 percent completion percentage, bad QB rating, 1-2 record)...does that make Tebow a bust?

If Tebow, like Moreno, was handed the starting job from day one, and kept it even when he struggled, and performed as poorly as Moreno has for two years, then yes, he would risk the 'bust' label (I don't think Moreno is quite there yet).

You know very well that there situations are not the same. It was well reported last year that Tebow didn't get first team reps (which is unusual for backup QBs, who normally get 20-30% of the first team snaps to keep them ready to step in).

Until Tebow either gets a chance to start for an extended period of time (like Orton his first year when he sucked) and fails, or if after another year or two, he doesn't show enough in practice/preseason to win the starting job, then you would be right to call him a bust.

Jsteve01
08-03-2011, 11:35 PM
Dude, you are too funny. Kyle Orton could have been had for a 3rd round pick from anyone willing to give it to us. Who came calling? Nobody. Not a one.

Look what AZ gave up for Kolb...who has the better stats, Orto or Kolb?

Why weren't teams beating down our doors? Because, Kyle Orton is extremely ordinary. So, what if he's look good in practice. How will he perform on Sunday's? Obviously, 31 other teams feel they have a better player behind center then we do.

Orton is not the answer for the Denver Broncos. Thus, logic would tell anyone...play the young kid...see what he can do.

If he fails, so what. Then you draft one of the 4 studs coming out next year. You find out that you need to move on.

Instead we will play Orton, go 8-8, he's gone next year........and then, we have to decide is it worth giving Tebow a shot...or do we draft a kid and start all over. Let's find out now! We really have little to lose.

are you trying to say that Kolb had better stats than Orton? Im a little confused by the way you phrased that.

Jsteve01
08-03-2011, 11:36 PM
are you trying to say that Kolb had better stats than Orton? Im a little confused by the way you phrased that.

the bigger problem was the deal that Kyle wanted not the compensation. The Dolphins just got done spending a 2nd on Henne two years ago. They know how those picks can work out. I salute Orton for not taking less just to get out of town and I salute him for coming in and out playing two athletic former number ones.

NorCalBronco7
08-04-2011, 12:32 AM
@KingJames in response to Hodges comments about Tebow.....


Tim Tebow will succeed in the NFL. He's a hard worker, a student of the game, a natural born leader and most of all a WINNER! It takes time and he'll be nice

broncosfannum24
08-04-2011, 01:11 AM
Why is everyone hating on tebow, give him a chance, most people are mad cause he accomplishes things that they dont have the balls to do, im a realist i know his arm motion isnt the best and hes inaccurate, well guess what that happens with rookies, fun fact for you tebow haters out there, Mcnabb 1st season 50% completion , most likely a hall of famer, eli manning 48% completion first season, superbowl champion, micheal vick 46% completion first season, this is a guy who were in the running for mvp this season, also we want talk about arm motions, phillip rivers, brett favre, jay cutler, even matt ryan, all have a weird or a diffrent type of whind ups arm motions, and they are pretty successful, wasnt orton the starter when denver was blown out against oakland at home? And wasnt it a waaaaayyy closer game when we played at oakland with tebow ? He could have had to td passes but ball dropped one

Canmore
08-04-2011, 01:48 AM
Why is everyone hating on tebow, give him a chance, most people are mad cause he accomplishes things that they dont have the balls to do, im a realist i know his arm motion isnt the best and hes inaccurate, well guess what that happens with rookies, fun fact for you tebow haters out there, Mcnabb 1st season 50% completion , most likely a hall of famer, eli manning 48% completion first season, superbowl champion, micheal vick 46% completion first season, this is a guy who were in the running for mvp this season, also we want talk about arm motions, phillip rivers, brett favre, jay cutler, even matt ryan, all have a weird or a diffrent type of whind ups arm motions, and they are pretty successful, wasnt orton the starter when denver was blown out against oakland at home? And wasnt it a waaaaayyy closer game when we played at oakland with tebow ? He could have had to td passes but ball dropped one

There are a few haters, but most of us fans, at least long term fans are rooting for Tebow. We spent a first round pick on him and are hoping it pays off. Orton is not the long term answer or so it would seem and we would like to see Tim play. His three games at the end of last season were exciting. Way more exciting than all but a couple of the previous thirteen. Behind, there was a feeling that we could still win the game. We did against the Texans and almost had a miracle against the Chargers. The run against Oakland was epic. There was excitement and I want to be entertained.

With that Tim is not showing the kind of development that the coaching staff had hoped for, it appears. The lockout was a real detriment to Tebow's development. I'm waiting for the preaseason games to make a judgement since I won't see any of them play until then. All I get are the camp reports, blogs, and posters evaluations and opinions. I don't think the pecking order has been set yet, but Tim needs to up his game especially when the bullets fly for real.

DenBronx
08-04-2011, 02:18 AM
merril hodge is a homosexual.

x1000

broncosfannum24
08-04-2011, 03:25 AM
The broncos front office is just spoiled little kids, elway still thinks he's playing qb, Elway,Xanders,Bowlen they are stuck in there stubborn ways and think were going to a superbowl, im a die hard broncos fan but i realize thats a long shot, but they dont, elways should be the first to defend tebow, he had one of worst rookie seasons in nfl history,i dont remember them doubting him, so why doubt tebow? I love orton, but what all thes analyst fail to point every time while they are praising orton is that the majority of his stats came from garbage time, 3 and out, 3 and out, 3 and out, and were down by 30 we had no choice but to throw it, tebow kept us in the game, while orton got rapped against the cardinals( who by the way had a rookie qb) i dont see orton going" its only one person that carries the ball here" when the games on the line, what orton did with game on line it when he couldnt handle a simple shot gun snap against the jets, and then looked very unathletic trying to get on the ball, and we lost the game, yea this is who they rather have at qb, or how about when we lost against the cheifs when he went 12 for 34 and he only threw for 3 first downs, cant blame that on the team, we sacked them 4 times,and a goaline stop, and moreno had his first 100 yard game, but nope orton couldnt complete a pass all day, but then again this is the same guy who looks good in practice

DenBronx
08-04-2011, 03:34 AM
Uh, Elway knows a hell of alot more about QB's than anyone on a fan forum.


Besides, it isnt Elways, Bowlens or Xanders call who is the starter at QB. It's the head coach and his names John Fox. :welcome:

Nothings in stone until preseason is over young padowan.

Northman
08-04-2011, 07:17 AM
Just because McDaniels was the worst coach in Broncos history and we hate him doesn't mean there's some rule that we must hate every player he brought in.

I don't hate Kyle Orton because McDaniels brought him in, I hate him because he sucks and because he blocked a trade that would've brought us a 2nd round pick.

You would of thought it would be that easy to comprehend by now but you know.....

BroncoStud
08-04-2011, 08:29 AM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

I thought Orton was McDaniels main guy...? He got the $9 MILLION extension and was McDaniels answer to Cutler, right?

SOCALORADO.
08-04-2011, 08:36 AM
Thanks, Merrill
http://cast.thirdage.com/files/styles/article/public/originals/andrew-luck.jpg

BroncoJoe
08-04-2011, 08:51 AM
Guess Hoge needed some exposure, since his network stock has descended to depths never seen before.

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Ol' Puddin' head at it for a second day? To be fair he probably forgot that he went through this yesterday. Everyday is a new memory lost for Ol' Puddin' Head. :laugh:

Lonestar
08-04-2011, 09:40 AM
But he somehow averaged more points per game than Orton... One of those games vs the #1 defense in the league.

Who gives a flying **** about throwing motion? Scoring points is what counts. Tebow scores more points... period.

Yep once the oline and Moreno was healed we got better at moving the ball defense still sucked.

But I suspect that Orton may have done just as well. Points wise.

Lonestar
08-04-2011, 09:55 AM
"f he is flushed from the pocket or even forced to "slide" his accuracy and throwing power go to absolute shit and the ball ends up in the dirt or in the other team's hands more often than not."

So his completion rate was less than 50%.

"Plummer, for all his faults, was a gamer who could extend the play so he was accepted and supported until his interception percentage started getting ridiculous"

IIRC his pick rate went down dramatically in the 05 campaign was very close to setting an NFL record for passes between picks. So try again.

Just need to know if your full of crap like this part was.

HammeredOut
08-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Wasn't Lebron crying in the locker room after a regular season basketball game>?? It wasn't even playoffs... Now we have crybaby calling for Tebow. I think Elway should plug both ears with his superbowl rings, before he hears this cra p.

TXBRONC
08-04-2011, 09:58 AM
Yep once the oline and Moreno was healed we got better at moving the ball defense still sucked.

But I suspect that Orton may have done just as well. Points wise.

Maybe you're not aware of this but the offensive line and Moreno healing up happened BEFORE Tebow became the starting quarterback. Also IIRC correctly Moreno's best rushing performance only lead to six points when Orton was the starting quarterback.

slim
08-04-2011, 10:22 AM
Merrill says things other people won't. Doesn't make them not true.

It's not what he said, it's the way he said it.

If you listen to the interview he did on the fan yesterday, you will see what I mean. He was completely condescending and really unprofessional. He came across as a total douche bag, IMO.

Take Jaws for example. Jaws has basically the same opinion as Merrill, but Jaws is capable of expressing his opinion and discussing the issue without being a condescending, bombastic *****.

JaxBroncoGirl
08-04-2011, 10:28 AM
A year and a half later, I am still here wondering when the Broncos will change their attitude. You always get what you always got because you keep doing the same thing over again thinking you will get a different outcome.

Start Tebow and be done with it. We did not see pretty things from him last year, yet he did pretty well considering the mess the team was in. While Orton sat on the sidelines pouting. Tim is a winner, he will do what it takes to win. It won't be pretty, who cares as long as we win. His ability to will a way to win is better than Orton's best day floundering in the red zone.

Northman
08-04-2011, 10:34 AM
It's not what he said, it's the way he said it.

If you listen to the interview he did on the fan yesterday, you will see what I mean. He was completely condescending and really unprofessional. He came across as a total douche bag, IMO.

Take Jaws for example. Jaws has basically the same opinion as Merrill, but Jaws is capable of expressing his opinion and discussing the issue without being a condescending, bombastic *****.

Unfortuantely, thats been Hoge's MO since he became a talking head. This isnt the first time people have thought he was an idiot or out of line in his comments.

Ravage!!!
08-04-2011, 10:39 AM
It's not what he said, it's the way he said it.

If you listen to the interview he did on the fan yesterday, you will see what I mean. He was completely condescending and really unprofessional. He came across as a total douche bag, IMO.

Take Jaws for example. Jaws has basically the same opinion as Merrill, but Jaws is capable of expressing his opinion and discussing the issue without being a condescending, bombastic *****.

I think its how you view Hoge to begin with. I didn't think he came across as a douche at all, but then, I like Hoge. I was able to listen to his opinion without hearing anything unprofessional about it (not to mention, why is it unprofessional to be condescending?).

There is no doubt that Merril was laying it all out there, not hiding anything, and not trying to soft-coat the delivery. However, I respect Trent Dilfer's opinion a great deal as well ( he's always extremely professional and generally not apt to put down anyone). But did you hear his opinion about the QB the Vikings drafted this last April, Christian Ponder? He wasn't "complimentrary" at all. He flat out told it like he saw it, and there was nothing kind behind his words.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/40037/dilfer-christian-ponder-is-elvis-grbac

If/when these guys feel strongly about something, they tell it like it is. Thats good because it goes both ways. When they compliment a player we like then we know they are saying exactly what they feel while not sugar coating it.

slim
08-04-2011, 10:42 AM
I think its how you view Hoge to begin with. I didn't think he came across as a douche at all, but then, I like Hoge. I was able to listen to his opinion without hearing anything unprofessional about it (not to mention, why is it unprofessional to be condescending?).

There is no doubt that Merril was laying it all out there, not hiding anything, and not trying to soft-coat the delivery. However, I respect Trent Dilfer's opinion a great deal as well ( he's always extremely professional and generally not apt to put down anyone). But did you hear his opinion about the QB the Vikings drafted this last April, Christian Ponder? He wasn't "complimentrary" at all. He flat out told it like he saw it, and there was nothing kind behind his words.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/40037/dilfer-christian-ponder-is-elvis-grbac

If/when these guys feel strongly about something, they tell it like it is. Thats good because it goes both ways. When they compliment a player we like then we know they are saying exactly what they feel while not sugar coating it.

We must have been listening to different interviews.

But you are right, I have always thought Merril was a bit of an ass. Guy just rubs me the wrong way, I guess.

lgenf
08-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Are we really comparing an 8 year vet to a 2nd year rook and saying the playing field is level?

let's take a look at this OBJECTIVELY

Orton should look better in Practice, he's been doing it for more years

Tebow - how much work did he get in practice last year? when he finally started a game, how open was the play book for that first game? Once the play book opened and TT had 2 entire weeks of practice, how much better did he look in the 2nd game?

now we have this crappy off season with the damn lockout and new coaches and whatever that means to the system (although apparently we are keeping the same offense or close to it)

all of this and people are surprised that Orton looks better then TT? I'm not, that doesn't meant that I think Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to WIN games, effectively TT is still a rookie, he got little to nothing out of last year and in the end if they do let him start, he will succeed but he's not going to take them to an undefeated season, and we will all have to live with "Rookie" mistakes

Orton is out of here next year, no way he is putting up with this as a FA and I am doubting that the Broncos are getting that Sanford QB, too many teams still suck in this league

JaxBroncoGirl
08-04-2011, 11:00 AM
I am not sure what to expect this year within the entire NFL. I think this will be a wild card year with many injuries due to the lockout because some of the players enjoyed themselves a little more this off season.

Orton and Tebow really did not have a good year last year. The team was off due to McDummy and his hoodie toten ill gotten, rotten self. I still think Tebow will come through this year. Just relax let things fall where they may fall and see what Tebow brings to the table.

Any Real sports personality should really do themselves a favor and let Tebow play in the NFL before they open their big mouths about Tebows' lack of skill to play in the league. I mean seriously, how can anyone judge based on 3 games (which he did ok). I think Tebow will be "Freaky Scary" when he finally gets a real chance to play.

G_Money
08-04-2011, 11:01 AM
Heard Peter King (Sports Illustrated) on the radio this morning talking about Tebow. He said that Tebow's accuracy is absolutely a concern for the Broncos. He's not going to be a guy that completes 60-64% of his passes. However, he doesn't believe that precludes him from being a starter in the NFL.

I guess I'm confused - the most accurate QB in college history will never complete 60% of his pro passes and that's the reason a lot of non-Peter-King soothsayers think he can't be successful, but Mark Sanchez and his 53% completion rate is viewed as capable of winning a Super Bowl by Schefter and crew, per a radio interview I heard this morning. :confused:

I really hate being put in a position where I have to speak up for poor abused Tebow, but there's some ridiculous nonsense being spouted now that Tebow is thinking too hard about throwing in the first week of practice.

You know what he doesn't do in games? Think too hard. He can throw 40 yard rainbows to hit a receiver in stride but he can't complete a 7 yard pass? I remember when Drew Brees was under 60% for his first 2 years, then suddenly added 5 or 6 % to his completion rate and took off. I dunno - it's very, VERY possible for Tebow to fail...but he hasn't done it yet, any more than Rivers failed because Brees suddenly got good and couldn't be immediately replaced, or Brees failed because it took him 3 full years (one sitting, two playing) to "get it."

Hoge and Jaworski have hated Tebow's future potential since college. I'm okay with that. They drew their line in the sand and now they're digging a moat on that line and filling it with alligators.

They're pundits, it's their job to say controversial things that draw traffic to the channel and the website.

I still remember Terry Bradshaw telling us Elway was soft and pathetic. Didn't make it true, but it made great headlines.

Different QBs rub people different ways. Tebow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. If he sits this year, I don't have a huge problem with it. If he plays, that's fine with me too. Whether we replace him in the draft with a more conventional QB or dub him "the franchise" and run with him I just want it to be the RIGHT call. And while Hoge is probably right that the player Tebow is in practice or in his first couple games is not a long-term solution and super-bowl winner, that doesn't mean Tebow is locked into that as his ceiling for all time.

You know who would never ever succeed? Brady for being under-talented. Warren Moon for being black. Philip Rivers with his stupid throwing motion. Drew Brees for being height-challenged.

I dunno - I've seen a lot of "that guy can't play because of X" from guys who believe they know everything, who then get to eat some humble pie.

Love to see Hoge sit down to interview Tebow before a Broncos Super Bowl and get to have some extra helpings of crow...but even if he's right it doesn't help us right now.

Right now, we need to find out who Timmy is and what he can be as a QB, and whether he's worth a 3 year investment to groom him to be The Future. Everything else is just noise.

~G

Softskull
08-04-2011, 11:11 AM
"Aaron Rodgers will be a bust. He doesn't have NFL skills. Alex Smith is a much more accurate QB, with all the tools to succeed in this league"

Merrill Hoge

slim
08-04-2011, 11:16 AM
"Aaron Rodgers will be a bust. He doesn't have NFL skills. Alex Smith is a much more accurate QB, with all the tools to succeed in this league"

Merrill Hoge

:laugh:

GEM
08-04-2011, 11:21 AM
What Hodge woke up to this morning from the guy upstairs:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/nicole0702/image001.jpg


:D :laugh:

Bugs Baloney
08-04-2011, 11:23 AM
A year and a half later, I am still here wondering when the Broncos will change their attitude. You always get what you always got because you keep doing the same thing over again thinking you will get a different outcome.

Start Tebow and be done with it. We did not see pretty things from him last year, yet he did pretty well considering the mess the team was in. While Orton sat on the sidelines pouting. Tim is a winner, he will do what it takes to win. It won't be pretty, who cares as long as we win. His ability to will a way to win is better than Orton's best day floundering in the red zone.

well stated! :salute:

Bugs Baloney
08-04-2011, 11:23 AM
Wee want Timmy, Wee want Timmy!

NightTerror218
08-04-2011, 11:29 AM
The updates I've been reading has been that other than day one, when Quinn was running two, Tebow has been 2nd QB in, running with 2nd team pretty much all of the time.

Yesterday during 2 minute drills, Orton had 1st team, Tebow had 2nd, and Quinn had the remaining

So i would say that is correct. BTW Orton went 4 for 6 with a TD and not much time left. Tebow went 3 for 4 with a TD and Quinn was intercepted by Irving. They started from their own 40.

bcbronc
08-04-2011, 12:14 PM
tweet from Tebow:

Hey Merril...... 'ppreciate that :eek:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/08/03/tim-tebow-vs-merril-hodge/8666/

What's with Tebow going with 'ppreciate...not like it saves any charaacters or anything. Is Tebow trying to go hard? If Tebow gets "Thug Life" tattooed on his stomach, I might just become a fan!

Juriga72
08-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Hodge is one sneeze from waking up with ALS....

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 12:59 PM
Ol' Puddin' Head GFY.

NightTerror218
08-04-2011, 02:10 PM
I do like how Tebow handled this....classy

More motivation

HORSEPOWER 56
08-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Yep once the oline and Moreno was healed we got better at moving the ball defense still sucked.

But I suspect that Orton may have done just as well. Points wise.

Moreno didn't even play in the last two games. He was out with a hammy half way through the Oakland game. That's why Ball and Buck we carrying the mail.

I Eat Staples
08-04-2011, 03:59 PM
Moreno sprains his vagina at least 3 times a year.

weazel
08-04-2011, 04:06 PM
Tebow had to respond to that? I would have thought God would be smiting the non-believers by now.

Agent of Orange
08-04-2011, 05:23 PM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

He wasnt McDaniels guy. McDaniels called the idea of playing him ridiculous. Then when he had a chance to play, after McDaniels was fired, the offense performed better with Tebow.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 05:25 PM
It's absolutely hilarious and ironic, when everyone on this board would rip McDaniels in half, that they worship and defend McDaniels's main guy.... Tebow. How has he somehow escaped the taint of McDaniels, when he is the guy who really would not be here except for McD?

He wasnt McDaniels guy. McDaniels called the idea of playing him ridiculous. Then when he had a chance to play, after McDaniels was fired, the offense performed better with Tebow.

So, Xanders drafted him?

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 05:26 PM
Moreno sprains his vagina at least 3 times a year.

So does your boy Orton.

Bronco4ever
08-04-2011, 07:09 PM
I find it funny that Espin is covering this "Tebow sucks story" while continuously showing Tebow's low lights from last season (incompletions, interceptions). They make it seem like he's never completed a pass in his life. Anyone who watched him play the last 3 games last season knows how well he played. Oh well... hopefully he proves the nay sayers wrong.

Agent of Orange
08-04-2011, 07:40 PM
So, Xanders drafted him?

Irrelevant.

I Eat Staples
08-04-2011, 07:44 PM
So does your boy Orton.

Orton isn't my boy, I just don't think he's nearly as bad as some of you make him out to be. He's decent and he had a good year for most of last year. I don't think he'll be our QB of the future, I want to draft one next year. I just think Tebow sucks.

Stargazer
08-04-2011, 07:47 PM
A year and a half later, I am still here wondering when the Broncos will change their attitude. You always get what you always got because you keep doing the same thing over again thinking you will get a different outcome.

Start Tebow and be done with it. We did not see pretty things from him last year, yet he did pretty well considering the mess the team was in. While Orton sat on the sidelines pouting. Tim is a winner, he will do what it takes to win. It won't be pretty, who cares as long as we win. His ability to will a way to win is better than Orton's best day floundering in the red zone.

touche

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 07:48 PM
So, Xanders drafted him?

Irrelevant.

Not really.

Lancane
08-04-2011, 08:02 PM
Actually, I don't know if anyone else has realized this...but EFX did something monumentally stupid. They let their insecurity cause a major issue that hasn't come to a head yet, and I'm not sure I want to see the end result.

PNB stated that fans are subdued, there is a lack of excitement in camp and Tebow seems to be showing signs of being down on himself.

Am I saying that they should just hand the job to him? No...the problem is that they allowed it to grow into something that should've never been, by allowing the leak that Denver was going to start Tebow, he thought his competition would be against Quinn and an untested rookie, instead of claiming the trade was untrue, the organization said they were allowing Orton to seek a trade because he did not want to be a backup, so the trade falls through and Orton is again automatically the starter. So Tebow is probably feeling whiplash right now and probably feels insecure, some people may not care but look what it's drawn out into? Now people are downing him far worse then before...if EFX was looking to effect the fanbase in a negative way and Tebow himself, then I feel they have done it. What worries me is will their next mistakes be just as bad to morale, do they realize any of this?

Vic Lombardi tweeted that "Elway said they would play the best players and they really didn't care what the fans had to say" or something similar enough. So what about the whole new PR of the organization promised by the new regime? Have they abandoned it? I'm not down EFX either, just seems that they've done something that isn't really leaving a positive mark on the beginning of their reign in Denver and is effecting the players and the fans alike, when it would have been simpler to deny anything, not say a damn word and never allowed Orton to seek a trade.

Agent of Orange
08-04-2011, 08:07 PM
Not really.

Sure it is. The notion you put out there had been voided. It was pointless. It was irrelevant.

Tned
08-04-2011, 08:23 PM
Vic Lombardi tweeted that "Elway said they would play the best players and they really didn't care what the fans had to say" or something similar enough. So what about the whole new PR of the organization promised by the new regime? Have they abandoned it? I'm not down EFX either, just seems that they've done something that isn't really leaving a positive mark on the beginning of their reign in Denver and is effecting the players and the fans alike, when it would have been simpler to deny anything, not say a damn word and never allowed Orton to seek a trade.

The organization is clearly making a HUGE effort in terms of fan outreach, transparency and the like. That said, there is a line, and they would be incompetent to play players based on popularity. If they did that, BVP would have been the starting QB not too many years ago, Woodyard a starting LB even when there were better ones in front of him. Many other examples. Some, like playing Hillis, might have been good, others like starting BVP, likely disastrous.

IMO, if EFX start making football or personnel decisions based on fan sentiment, they should all be fired.

Agent of Orange
08-04-2011, 08:29 PM
The organization is clearly making a HUGE effort in terms of fan outreach, transparency and the like. That said, there is a line, and they would be incompetent to play players based on popularity. If they did that, BVP would have been the starting QB not too many years ago, Woodyard a starting LB even when there were better ones in front of him. Many other examples. Some, like playing Hillis, might have been good, others like starting BVP, likely disastrous.

IMO, if EFX start making football or personnel decisions based on fan sentiment, they should all be fired.

I just hope they don't defend themselves with starting Orton so much that they entrench themselves. If the offense continues to score 13 pts with Orton at QB when they're playing actual football, I really hope they won't feel obligated to justify their decision to start Orton because they spent so much time defending it and feel all in.

What really sucks is the possibility that they might try to trade Tebow because they know an Orton led offense has a good chance of putting up a lot of 13 pt games, at which time the volume for playing Tebow will get really loud. Its like trading Tebow is something that would be done in anticipation of Orton's failure, which would be stupid.

Jsteve01
08-04-2011, 08:31 PM
exactly and like I said before, Fox already had that program force fed to him in Carolina. I can't see him buying into roster moves based on focus groups and pr.

Here's something else I believe. I can't help but think being the competitor he is that Tim would hate to get the ball knowing he had been outperformed in camp and preseason.

Jsteve01
08-04-2011, 08:32 PM
I just hope they don't defend themselves with starting Orton so much that they entrench themselves. If the offense continues to score 13 pts with Orton at QB when they're playing actual football, I really hope they won't feel obligated to justify their decision to start Orton because they spent so much time defending it and feel all in.

What really sucks is the possibility that they might try to trade Tebow because they know an Orton led offense has a good chance of putting up a lot of 13 pt games, at which time the volume for playing Tebow will get really loud. Its like trading Tebow is something that would be done in anticipation of Orton's failure, which would be stupid.

I can't see that either. Fox isn't going to ride Orton, Tebow or Quin into the dirt if it aint working. If his starter can't perform then someone else will be in there. We're talking about a lot more mature coach that McD here.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 08:34 PM
Not really.

Sure it is. The notion you put out there had been voided. It was pointless. It was irrelevant.

How was it voided? You said Tebow wasn't McDaniels guy, yet McDaniels drafted him and gave a boatload of picks to draft him. That is not irrelevant at all. If you want to avoid those facts, which apparently you do, then I can see why you want my point to be irrelevant. Obviously, its not. Very poor logic on your part.

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 08:35 PM
I can't see that either. Fox isn't going to ride Orton, Tebow or Quin into the dirt if it aint working. If his starter can't perform then someone else will be in there. We're talking about a lot more mature coach that McD here.

I hope you're right but there are a lot of reports of him sticking with guys like Delhomme longer than he should have.

We will find out.

Agent of Orange
08-04-2011, 08:38 PM
How was it voided? You said Tebow wasn't McDaniels guy, yet McDaniels drafted him and gave a boatload of picks to draft him. That is not irrelevant at all. If you want to avoid those facts, which apparently you do, then I can see why you want my point to be irrelevant. Obviously, its not. Very poor logic on your part.

I already knew this is where you were coming from and addressed it. So this post was kind of pointless. Try to keep up.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 08:52 PM
How was it voided? You said Tebow wasn't McDaniels guy, yet McDaniels drafted him and gave a boatload of picks to draft him. That is not irrelevant at all. If you want to avoid those facts, which apparently you do, then I can see why you want my point to be irrelevant. Obviously, its not. Very poor logic on your part.

I already knew this is where you were coming from and addressed it. So this post was kind of pointless. Try to keep up.

Keep up with what? You said McDaniels thought starting Tebow was ridiculous without any citation. I guess I should have asked for you to explain, because your point was cloudy, at best, other than that your opinion was McDaniels didn't start him because he didn't like him, or some such nonsense. I'm not really sure because your post was lacking any credibility.

The fact is, McDaniels biggest mistake is drafting Tebow, which, subsequently, makes Tebow "McDaniels' boy."

NorCalBronco7
08-04-2011, 09:05 PM
The organization is clearly making a HUGE effort in terms of fan outreach, transparency and the like. That said, there is a line, and they would be incompetent to play players based on popularity. If they did that, BVP would have been the starting QB not too many years ago, Woodyard a starting LB even when there were better ones in front of him. Many other examples. Some, like playing Hillis, might have been good, others like starting BVP, likely disastrous.

IMO, if EFX start making football or personnel decisions based on fan sentiment, they should all be fired.

I complete agree about popularity not being a factor at all. I also dont believe next years draft class is a factor either like many fans genuinely believe.

A lot of fans have given up on the Broncos before the season has even started and Im fine with that and completely understand the pessimism. But no fan can expect Fox, or any NFL coach, to ever feel pessimistic towards their own team to the point that they make roster changes before the season has even started based on their perception of the next years draft class. Fans may have given up on the team, but I can guruantee you that the thought of failure this season hasnt crossed Fox's mind. He's doing everything possible to help the Broncos win now and in the future and wont mortgage a season before its even started.

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 09:10 PM
Keep up with what? You said McDaniels thought starting Tebow was ridiculous without any citation. I guess I should have asked for you to explain, because your point was cloudy, at best, other than that your opinion was McDaniels didn't start him because he didn't like him, or some such nonsense. I'm not really sure because your post was lacking any credibility.

The fact is, McDaniels biggest mistake is drafting Tebow, which, subsequently, makes Tebow "McDaniels' boy."

Shipping off a Franchise QB for a King's ransom and subsequently blowing that ransom on daytime hookers was McD's biggest mistake.

Calling Tebow his biggest mistake is Ridiculous especially when you consider the guy he draft right before Tebow hasn't done shit and Tebow QBed us to at least one victory.

Fail post is fail

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Keep up with what? You said McDaniels thought starting Tebow was ridiculous without any citation. I guess I should have asked for you to explain, because your point was cloudy, at best, other than that your opinion was McDaniels didn't start him because he didn't like him, or some such nonsense. I'm not really sure because your post was lacking any credibility.

The fact is, McDaniels biggest mistake is drafting Tebow, which, subsequently, makes Tebow "McDaniels' boy."

Shipping off a Franchise QB for a King's ransom and subsequently blowing that ransom on daytime hookers was McD's biggest mistake.

Calling Tebow his biggest mistake is Ridiculous especially when you consider the guy he draft right before Tebow hasn't done shit and Tebow QBed us to at least one victory.

Fail post is fail

Yeah, two years later, said first round pick isnt even contending for a starting job. Not even contending.

The only failure is people who cannot comprehend how bad of a pick that is turning out to be.

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 09:28 PM
Yeah, two years later, said first round pick isnt even contending for a starting job. Not even contending.

The only failure is people who cannot comprehend how bad of a pick that is turning out to be.

Somehow Tebow is a worse 1st round pick than DT, who was injured in college and we won't see him for another season? Tebow is a worse 1st round pick than the one we wasted trading for Alphonso Smith who was traded for a seventh round pick or whatever it was, 13 months later?

You can't be serious.

Fail post is still fail post.

Tned
08-04-2011, 09:29 PM
Yeah, two years later, said first round pick isnt even contending for a starting job. Not even contending.

The only failure is people who cannot comprehend how bad of a pick that is turning out to be.

Two years later??? :confused: Creative math. He's been a Bronco for a little over one year, and didn't have the benefit of an '11 offseason, which MANY people said would hurt his chances of competing this training camp. In addition, he's got a new HC/offensive scheme to learn, but again, no offseason to prepare.

Come on MO, I realize you either don't like him, or more likely just are sick of some of the Tebow love, but your warped anti-Tebow view is just as bad as the Tebow lovefest, maybe worse.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 09:36 PM
Yeah, two years later, said first round pick isnt even contending for a starting job. Not even contending.

The only failure is people who cannot comprehend how bad of a pick that is turning out to be.

Two years later??? :confused: Creative math. He's been a Bronco for a little over one year, and didn't have the benefit of an '11 offseason, which MANY people said would hurt his chances of competing this training camp. In addition, he's got a new HC/offensive scheme to learn, but again, no offseason to prepare.

Come on MO, I realize you either don't like him, or more likely just are sick of some of the Tebow love, but your warped anti-Tebow view is just as bad as the Tebow lovefest, maybe worse.

He's not even competing for the starting job. This isn't about Tebow. This is about the draft pick. Hell, even Quinn and Rodgers were competing for the starting job or clearly close in their second year. Fine, I hyperbolized the next nine months, but you're kidding yourself at this point, if he's even close to better than what most consider a below average quarterback, or backup, in Orton. That makes this first round pick much worse than many, many others, especially Moreno and Ayers, who are the brunt of McDaniels' critics' hatred.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 09:38 PM
Yeah, two years later, said first round pick isnt even contending for a starting job. Not even contending.

The only failure is people who cannot comprehend how bad of a pick that is turning out to be.

Somehow Tebow is a worse 1st round pick than DT, who was injured in college and we won't see him for another season? Tebow is a worse 1st round pick than the one we wasted trading for Alphonso Smith who was traded for a seventh round pick or whatever it was, 13 months later?

You can't be serious.

Fail post is still fail post.

No, at this point, I am serious. Very serious.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-04-2011, 09:38 PM
I hope you're right but there are a lot of reports of him sticking with guys like Delhomme longer than he should have.

We will find out.

The only thing I can say about that particular case is that Fox kinda had his hands tied on that one. The Panthers had just come off a 12-4 season and had 2 1000+ yard rushers and a stout defense. Delhomme was due a new contract and the GM (Marty Hurney), not Fox because he didn't do that in Carolina, gave Delhomme that ridiculous deal. They were paying Delhomme so damned much money that Fox really didn't have a choice, he had to play him.

2 years later, Delhomme has an obscene cap number and is throwing more picks than TDs. Delhomme gets hurt and his backup (Moore) has a decent showing in limited action. This combined with the huge cap number allows the Panthers to release Delhomme.

I guess what I'm saying is, Marty Hurney handcuffed Fox with Delhomme much the same way McDaniels has handcuffed us with Orton this year. If nobody will take his overpriced salary off our hands, we can't trade him and cutting him is just throwing $5 mil of the $9 mil we're paying him away. Orton, while not being the winner or leader I'd like to have is at least better than Delhomme.

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 09:43 PM
Sure MO, convince yourself that Tebow was McD's biggest mistake while Alphonso Smith was picked up with a first round pick via trade, that'll make you look intelligent and rational. :laugh:

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 09:47 PM
Sure MO, convince yourself that Tebow was McD's biggest mistake while Alphonso Smith was picked up with a first round pick via trade, that'll make you look intelligent and rational. :laugh:

More picks were given up for Tebow. More is on the line for quarterbacks.

Go ahead and question my intelligence, but we both know what position is more important and which draft pick we took more of a chance on. It sure as hell isn't Smith.

NorCalBronco7
08-04-2011, 09:49 PM
Yeah, two years later, said first round pick isnt even contending for a starting job. Not even contending.

The only failure is people who cannot comprehend how bad of a pick that is turning out to be.


He's not even competing for the starting job. This isn't about Tebow. This is about the draft pick. Hell, even Quinn and Rodgers were competing for the starting job or clearly close in their second year. Fine, I hyperbolized the next nine months, but you're kidding yourself at this point, if he's even close to better than what most consider a below average quarterback, or backup, in Orton. That makes this first round pick much worse than many, many others, especially Moreno and Ayers, who are the brunt of McDaniels' critics' hatred.

I think the issue is more about time. Your rushing to judgement on Tebow when hes only played 3 games.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 09:53 PM
I think the issue is more about time. Your rushing to judgement on Tebow when hes only played 3 games.

I hope so.

The problem here is that he's not even competing with Kyle Orton for a starting job. According to most on this board, Kyle Orton is a career back up and a hack.

So, Tebow can't even compete with a career backup?

That's not good, folks.

Tned
08-04-2011, 09:55 PM
He's not even competing for the starting job. This isn't about Tebow. This is about the draft pick. Hell, even Quinn and Rodgers were competing for the starting job or clearly close in their second year. Fine, I hyperbolized the next nine months, but you're kidding yourself at this point, if he's even close to better than what most consider a below average quarterback, or backup, in Orton. That makes this first round pick much worse than many, many others, especially Moreno and Ayers, who are the brunt of McDaniels' critics' hatred.

Your projecting your "he took a call and said no" need to defend McDaniels on to critics of McDaniels. I have seen very few people that put Ayers and moreno in the same category. Granted, Ayers has been a bit underwhelming, but Mayock tagged him as a three year project ---- just as MANY draft guys tagged Tebow as a three year project QB.

Second, for you to completely discount the fact that Tebow is on his second HC and offensive scheme, AND the transition happened in the middle fo the NFL's longest work stoppage, meaning he lost the entire off season of OTA's, mini-camps and meetings with coaches, just shows that you aren't taking an objective view of the Tebow situation, but instead are just reacting to what you feel is unfair criticism of McDaniels.

This isn't about McDaniels, this is about Tebow. Your criticisms are clearly biased. Is he beating Orton in camp? No. Has he been severely handicapped by the circumstances of the last year? I think if you answer it honestly, and not in a reactionary fashion, you will say yes.

Tned
08-04-2011, 09:58 PM
I think the issue is more about time. Your rushing to judgement on Tebow when hes only played 3 games.

Played three games. Reportedly got NO first team snaps last season under McDaniels, which is unusual as the back up usually gets 20-30% so they are prepared to step in. Lost his second offseason, which involved a new HC and offensive scheme.

NorCalBronco7
08-04-2011, 09:59 PM
I hope so.

The problem here is that he's not even competing with Kyle Orton for a starting job. According to most on this board, Kyle Orton is a career back up and a hack.

So, Tebow can't even compete with a career backup?

That's not good, folks.

He was condsidered a project coming out of college. Im not worried. Ask me in a couple years.

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 10:00 PM
I hope so.

The problem here is that he's not even competing with Kyle Orton for a starting job. According to most on this board, Kyle Orton is a career back up and a hack.

So, Tebow can't even compete with a career backup?

That's not good, folks.

And Aphonso Smith couldn't compete with Nate Jones so he was traded. The simple fact that Tebow led a 17 point comeback and helped us to 1/4 of our win total last season means he is already a better 1st round pick for the Denver Broncos than Alphonso Smith could ever be therefore knocking Tebow out of the "worst mistake McD ever made" game.

The scary thing is, I don't know that Smith was McD's worst mistake.

And I shouldn't have said anything about your intelligence, sorry for that.

NorCalBronco7
08-04-2011, 10:04 PM
Played three games. Reportedly got NO first team snaps last season under McDaniels, which is unusual as the back up usually gets 20-30% so they are prepared to step in. Lost his second offseason, which involved a new HC and offensive scheme.

I know, Tebow hasn't even been able to work with starters or get a real offseason this year :der:

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 10:05 PM
Second, for you to completely discount the fact that Tebow is on his second HC and offensive scheme, AND the transition happened in the middle fo the NFL's longest work stoppage, meaning he lost the entire off season of OTA's, mini-camps and meetings with coaches, just shows that you aren't taking an objective view of the Tebow situation, but instead are just reacting to what you feel is unfair criticism of McDaniels.

This isn't about McDaniels, this is about Tebow. Your criticisms are clearly biased. Is he beating Orton in camp? No. Has he been severely handicapped by the circumstances of the last year? I think if you answer it honestly, and not in a reactionary fashion, you will say yes.

No, its not unfair criticism of McDaniels. If that's how you see it, then you cannot see how bad of a first round draft pick Tebow is turning out to be. There are first-round quarterbacks who are not struggling at all. Blaine Gabbert is wowing people in Jacksonville. Sam Bradford is on the verge of being a super star. They had to deal with the lockout too. I've been repeatedly told that Orton is a career backup and a terrible starting quarterback. Yet the quarterback who is supposed to be the future of the franchise can't even compete with this horrible career backup?

Call it reactionary, but this is a real problem.

broncobryce
08-04-2011, 10:09 PM
I love how everyone over reacts to one week of camp. Tebow gets 3 games and a locked out summer and now he's a bust? ha ha ha

BeefStew25
08-04-2011, 10:10 PM
Call it reactionary, but this is a real problem.

So what should we do about it?

BeefStew25
08-04-2011, 10:11 PM
I love how everyone over reacts to one week of camp. Tebow gets 3 games and a locked out summer and now he's a bust? ha ha ha

I seem to remember at the end of the season a good portion of people on here were excited about his play.

I was. Yeah he needs work, but lashing out is immature and gay.

Tned
08-04-2011, 10:11 PM
No, its not unfair criticism of McDaniels. If that's how you see it, then you cannot see how bad of a first round draft pick Tebow is turning out to be. There are first-round quarterbacks who are not struggling at all. Blaine Gabbert is wowing people in Jacksonville. Sam Bradford is on the verge of being a super star. They had to deal with the lockout too. I've been repeatedly told that Orton is a career backup and a terrible starting quarterback. Yet the quarterback who is supposed to be the future of the franchise can't even compete with this horrible career backup?

Call it reactionary, but this is a real problem.

I guess McDaniels should have picked up the phone and said "no" this time...

I'm not saying it is unfair criticism of McDaniels, but of Tebow.

Neither Gabbert nor Bradford were considered 2-3 year projects. Tebow was. Should McDaniels have picked him in the first round? As Norcal said, we won't be able to answer that for a few years. However, it is disingenuous at best to ignore the fact that EVERYONE knew he would take time to transition to the NFL based on the type of game he played in Florida.

Whatever, this is a worthless discussion, because you are simply being argumentative, because you 'feel' the criticism of Orton is unfair, so therefore you are dishing out unfair criticism of Tebow. I've seen this game before. Have fun.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 10:11 PM
Call it reactionary, but this is a real problem.

So what should we do about it?

Run naked through the streets and fire bomb Dove Valley.

BeefStew25
08-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Run naked through the streets and fire bomb Dove Valley.

Exactly. Enjoy this as it unfolds.

Lancane
08-04-2011, 10:22 PM
The organization is clearly making a HUGE effort in terms of fan outreach, transparency and the like. That said, there is a line, and they would be incompetent to play players based on popularity. If they did that, BVP would have been the starting QB not too many years ago, Woodyard a starting LB even when there were better ones in front of him. Many other examples. Some, like playing Hillis, might have been good, others like starting BVP, likely disastrous.

IMO, if EFX start making football or personnel decisions based on fan sentiment, they should all be fired.

Oh, I'm not saying that Tned, what I am saying is that there are some things that should remain behind closed doors, such as any shopping of Orton, and if wind did get out, they should have denied it as best as possible; as of leaking that Tebow would be the starter; as of telling Lombardi "that they do not care about the opinion of the fans". No need to demoralize the fans, the those on the team as well as confuse the whole league with what looks like the lack of any sort of thought.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 10:24 PM
I guess McDaniels should have picked up the phone and said "no" this time...

I'm not saying it is unfair criticism of McDaniels, but of Tebow.

Neither Gabbert nor Bradford were considered 2-3 year projects. Tebow was. Should McDaniels have picked him in the first round? As Norcal said, we won't be able to answer that for a few years. However, it is disingenuous at best to ignore the fact that EVERYONE knew he would take time to transition to the NFL based on the type of game he played in Florida.

Whatever, this is a worthless discussion, because you are simply being argumentative, because you 'feel' the criticism of Orton is unfair, so therefore you are dishing out unfair criticism of Tebow. I've seen this game before. Have fun.

I'm not criticizing Tebow. I'm criticizing where he was drafted. Tebow is a great person, a hard worker and a leader. Unfortunately, he's not worth where he was taken in the draft. Its a shame, because if he was taken later, expectations wouldn't be as high. It's similar to the unfair criticisms of Moreno. Its about where he was drafted, not about who he is.

Fair is fair.

BeefStew25
08-04-2011, 10:29 PM
I'm not criticizing Tebow. I'm criticizing where he was drafted. Tebow is a great person, a hard worker and a leader. Unfortunately, he's not worth where he was taken in the draft. Its a shame, because if he was taken later, expectations wouldn't be as high. It's similar to the unfair criticisms of Moreno. Its about where he was drafted, not about who he is.

Fair is fair.

Yeah but Moreno hasn't given his best effort. Huge difference.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 10:34 PM
Yeah but Moreno hasn't given his best effort. Huge difference.

Let's make sure Tebow gets a participation ribbon for his efforts.

Dzone
08-04-2011, 10:35 PM
Lets not forget "Tim Tebow is a football player who happens to play quarterback"...
Kyle Orton is a Tennis Player who happens to play quarterback.
Big difference there.
:pound:
Hey, I do think it is cool that Orton earned a letter in high school tennis. Thats fine. His parents probably belonged to the country club.

MOtorboat
08-04-2011, 10:38 PM
Lets not forget "Tim Tebow is a football player who happens to play quarterback"...
Kyle Orton is a Tennis Player who happens to play quarterback.
Big difference there.
:pound:

Clearly, my criticisms of Tebow are invalid.

broncobryce
08-04-2011, 10:39 PM
I seem to remember at the end of the season a good portion of people on here were excited about his play.

I was. Yeah he needs work, but lashing out is immature and gay.

Exactly, people were excited, and bitching about how Orton sucks. Now Orton is good, just because of some newspaper articles/radio talk shows.

I've made that point on here a few times. I just don't get it. How many of us have been to camp? I'm sure Orton looks good, just like he did last year, when McD was so impressed he signed him to another year. I just go by what I saw the last 2 years of REAL GAMES. Orton is not the guy, I can't stand watching the guy play.
Give someone else a chance, maybe a guy who played pretty well in his first 3 starts, and got our blood pumping?

I still believe (hope?) Orton is only running with the first team to keep his trade value up. Nothing else makes sense, if you loved him so much why did you try to trade him as soon as possible? Seems fishy.....

BroncoWave
08-04-2011, 10:43 PM
I'm not criticizing Tebow. I'm criticizing where he was drafted. Tebow is a great person, a hard worker and a leader. Unfortunately, he's not worth where he was taken in the draft. Its a shame, because if he was taken later, expectations wouldn't be as high. It's similar to the unfair criticisms of Moreno. Its about where he was drafted, not about who he is.

Fair is fair.

No, it's not fair. Tebow had no control over where he was drafted. Regardless, it's flat out ridiculous to call it a bad draft pick at this point of his career.

Davii
08-04-2011, 10:46 PM
While you say "fair is fair"

Will you give Tebow the same amount of time (practice and play) that Moreno has had before labeling him a failure?

Essentially that is what you're doing. You can't say he was or wasn't worth his draft position at this point in time unless you are labeling him a failure.

If sometime this season he is starting and next year is looking to be a pretty solid QB is he worth the draft position then?

IIRC Eli Manning wasn't very good his first couple years, good thing nobody decided he wasn't worth the draft pick back then. Hell, Peyton was atrocious his first year, Elway showed flashes but sucked overall, etc.

The majority of the guys you're talking about showing their worth were thrown in almost from day one. What about Rodgers? Good thing he wasn't canned for Brett Favre (even though Favre was playing better in practice) or the Packers wouldn;t have won a SB.

I don't think you're giving Tebow a fair shake. I'm all for Orton starting if he is the better player. Only time will tell, i'm waiting to see pre-season games, and waiting to see how Orton looks when the games are for real.

Jsteve01
08-04-2011, 10:49 PM
No, it's not fair. Tebow had no control over where he was drafted. Regardless, it's flat out ridiculous to call it a bad draft pick at this point of his career.

was dick quinn a bad draft pick? how about Beadles in the second when guys like Vlad Ducasse were still on the board?

Tebow was a reach in the first and we paid too much to move up for him...Im not saying he was a bad pick though....

Look anytime post draft it comes out that no one else wanted him there and Ozzie Newsome's eyes lit up when he heard the offer, well then you know you screwed the pooch...and note to young GM/coaches/tyrants dont do deals with Newsome it doesn't work out for you

BroncoStud
08-04-2011, 10:50 PM
Lets not forget "Tim Tebow is a football player who happens to play quarterback"...
Kyle Orton is a Tennis Player who happens to play quarterback.
Big difference there.
:pound:
Hey, I do think it is cool that Orton earned a letter in high school tennis. Thats fine. His parents probably belonged to the country club.

Kyle only wishes he could play tennis. He barely has the speed to make a good golfer at this point. I can just see him trying to chase down a baseline backhand without falling all over himself...

NorCalBronco7
08-04-2011, 10:50 PM
Rich Gannon doesn't agree with Hodge.








http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/30098/rich-gannon-sticks-up-for-tim-tebow

BeefStew25
08-04-2011, 10:51 PM
Let's make sure Tebow gets a participation ribbon for his efforts.

And you get a kick in the ovaries for being a condescending little elf.

broncobryce
08-04-2011, 10:51 PM
was dick quinn a bad draft pick? how about Beadles in the second when guys like Vlad Ducasse were still on the board?

Tebow was a reach in the first and we paid too much to move up for him...Im not saying he was a bad pick though....

Look anytime post draft it comes out that no one else wanted him there and Ozzie Newsome's eyes lit up when he heard the offer, well then you know you screwed the pooch...and note to young GM/coaches/tyrants dont do deals with Newsome it doesn't work out for you

Vlad Ducasse has done zero so far. I don't think he's even seen the field.

I Eat Staples
08-04-2011, 10:53 PM
I hope you're right but there are a lot of reports of him sticking with guys like Delhomme longer than he should have.

We will find out.

Delhomme took Carolina to a superbowl though, so he earned the respect and loyalty of his coach to stick with him when he struggled. Orton hasn't proven anything yet, so unless he can replicate that success, Fox will have no obligation to him if he struggles.


Somehow Tebow is a worse 1st round pick than DT, who was injured in college and we won't see him for another season? Tebow is a worse 1st round pick than the one we wasted trading for Alphonso Smith who was traded for a seventh round pick or whatever it was, 13 months later?

You can't be serious.

Fail post is still fail post.

Tebow is a worse pick than DT. DT had the talent, he just can't stay healthy. He may still become an impact player, or his injuries may very well run him out of the league. Tebow, on the other hand, wasn't a first round talent by any means and McD traded up to get him.

Can't argue with Phonz, though. Don't forget McD added insult to injury by trading him for a scrub TE in Gronkowski. (And inadvertently robert ethan.)

chazoe60
08-04-2011, 11:08 PM
Delhomme took Carolina to a superbowl though, so he earned the respect and loyalty of his coach to stick with him when he struggled. Orton hasn't proven anything yet, so unless he can replicate that success, Fox will have no obligation to him if he struggles.



Tebow is a worse pick than DT. DT had the talent, he just can't stay healthy. He may still become an impact player, or his injuries may very well run him out of the league. Tebow, on the other hand, wasn't a first round talent by any means and McD traded up to get him.

Can't argue with Phonz, though. Don't forget McD added insult to injury by trading him for a scrub TE in Gronkowski. (And inadvertently robert ethan.)


Until DT can stay on the field he is a bigger draft mistake than Tebow. Just because you project it to be so does not make it so. For anyone to claim Tebow is McD's biggest mistake is just ludicrous.

And who the Hell is Robert Ethan?

BroncoStud
08-04-2011, 11:15 PM
Tebow is at least a weapon in the redzone, if nothing else. Our offense would have struggled mightily in the redzone had Tebow not run and thrown for some short TDs.

DT is made of glass, dude just can't get or stay healthy.

Dzone
08-04-2011, 11:27 PM
DT broke his foot before the draft and Mcdaniels drafted him anyway. That has so far been a way worse pick than Tebow. Now he is out until November with a ruptured wheel. He is most likely finished. Plus very disgusting his involvement with the Perrish Cox rape case. Hopefully it wasnt true that he groped some unconscious chick. Another stupid pick was that cornerback smith that got shipped to detroit and is probably 3rd string there. He cost us a #1 pick. Total idiocy.

I Eat Staples
08-04-2011, 11:58 PM
No, it's not fair. Tebow had no control over where he was drafted. Regardless, it's flat out ridiculous to call it a bad draft pick at this point of his career.

It was fair to call it a bad pick the minute after it happened. We gave up much more than Tebow was worth, simple as that. If Tebow goes on to be a star, it then becomes a great pick, but hindsight is 20/20. It was a bad pick at the time. Draft grades are given immediately after the draft, it is then up to the players to prove them right or wrong.


Until DT can stay on the field he is a bigger draft mistake than Tebow. Just because you project it to be so does not make it so. For anyone to claim Tebow is McD's biggest mistake is just ludicrous.

And who the Hell is Robert Ethan?

Robert Ethan was our resident Gronkowski troll who started posting here after we acquired him.


DT broke his foot before the draft and Mcdaniels drafted him anyway. That has so far been a way worse pick than Tebow. Now he is out until November with a ruptured wheel. He is most likely finished. Plus very disgusting his involvement with the Perrish Cox rape case. Hopefully it wasnt true that he groped some unconscious chick. Another stupid pick was that cornerback smith that got shipped to detroit and is probably 3rd string there. He cost us a #1 pick. Total idiocy.

Valid point about DT's foot, its not like McD had no idea he was injury prone. It was a gamble that so far is working out terribly. I just think it makes more sense to gamble on an injury prone but extremely talented wideout rather than a QB who isn't considered to have NFL skills.

The worst part about the DT pick was that Dez Bryant was the much better player. Dez happened to get injured, but there was no way of knowing that would happen, unlike with DT who already had a bad foot.

Sinthor
08-04-2011, 11:59 PM
Well, right now he's running scout team offense, sharing snaps with an UDFA from Minnesota. Are you going to tell me that John Fox has no clue what he's doing.

Just like Merril Hoge emphasized...great human being, fatal flaws as a thrower. Fatal (to his career, don't want that to be misconstrued).

Ummm..AND another former 1st round pick. Amazes me how the Broncos SAID BQ would get a look and when it's reported that one day the dude gets a few reps with the 1st team and suddenly Tim's lost the #2 spot. If BQ was taking some 1st team reps by that same logic doesn't it mean he's taking the #1 spot? Fox has cleared that up anyway that the competition is ongoing. It's week ONE, people. Give it a rest. Amazing how desperate some people are for this kid to fail.

Sinthor
08-05-2011, 12:03 AM
Thanks for the report, Carol. He's being given a fair shot. So far he hasn't beat out Quinn for second string, so let's call him 2B, since Quinn has thusfar had more snaps with the second team offense.

So, you didn't even know that Quinn isn't consistently working with the first team and in fact is mostly working with the third team and you assume THIS? Try to keep up. Fox reiterated that NO changes have been made to the depth chart at this time. That means Orton is #1, Tebow #2, Quinn #3 and the new guy #4. Come on folks. Don't be so desperate. Or at least don't make stuff up if you're going to post.

Tned
08-05-2011, 09:03 AM
I'm not criticizing Tebow. I'm criticizing where he was drafted. Tebow is a great person, a hard worker and a leader. Unfortunately, he's not worth where he was taken in the draft. Its a shame, because if he was taken later, expectations wouldn't be as high. It's similar to the unfair criticisms of Moreno. Its about where he was drafted, not about who he is.

Fair is fair.

Except you aren't being honest (or maybe more accurately, not being fair) in your criticism of Tebow. Draft position aside. You are making inaccurate statements "two years", when in fact he's only been a Bronco for fifteen months and lost this past offseason, the one every one talked about being critical for hm.

McDaniels made some horrible draft picks, and some good ones. Time will tell which this is. However, you know enough about football to know that a QB not winning the starting job in the 2nd season doesn't indicate he never will. Look at how long it took Brees to develop. There are many QBs that have sat for one, two or more years, and turned out very well.

With all the money paid #1 QBs, that's become harder and harder to do, just because these QBs in recent years have been paid 30, 40, 50 million dollars guaranteed.

Should he have been picked in the first round? Maybe not. However, if McDaniels believed that in two to three years he would develop into a franchise QB, long term Broncos QB answer, then there is no problem with picking him towards the bottom of the first round.

MileHighCrew
08-05-2011, 09:07 AM
Isn't it welll known in the NFL that QBs normally take the BIG jump in year 3. Considering Tebow lost and offseason and he was a project from the beginning, wouldn't year 4 be a real expectation at this point?

But I still want Andrew Luck!!!

lgenf
08-05-2011, 09:30 AM
Isn't it welll known in the NFL that QBs normally take the BIG jump in year 3. Considering Tebow lost and offseason and he was a project from the beginning, wouldn't year 4 be a real expectation at this point?

But I still want Andrew Luck!!!

that was my exact argument in one of the other threads

he got nothing out of this past year for the most part - the entire offseason was lost and last year during the season he got nothing for reps with 1st team O until McD was canned

does anyone at this point really think that TT is going to get 3 more years out of this deal unless he starts this year and proves everyone wrong about his talents?

I honestly don't think he's going to get a fair shake - I mean look at the damn debate going on right now - people are comparing a 6 year vet to a 2nd year rook - who isn't even like a 2nd year rook because of the damn lockout

not for nothing, but how is that a fair and equal compeition - besides the fact they have both played QB their entire lives

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 10:16 AM
that was my exact argument in one of the other threads

he got nothing out of this past year for the most part - the entire offseason was lost and last year during the season he got nothing for reps with 1st team O until McD was canned

does anyone at this point really think that TT is going to get 3 more years out of this deal unless he starts this year and proves everyone wrong about his talents?

I honestly don't think he's going to get a fair shake - I mean look at the damn debate going on right now - people are comparing a 6 year vet to a 2nd year rook - who isn't even like a 2nd year rook because of the damn lockout

not for nothing, but how is that a fair and equal compeition - besides the fact they have both played QB their entire lives

What is this "logic" thing you are using? Is that legal on the interwebs?

BroncoStud
08-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Fair isn't the issue here. I keep hearing from people and rather suddenly that Kyle Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win NOW, yet in 2 years he has been a monumental LOSER here in Denver.

So I ask everyone, basing on a few practices, what exactly makes ANYONE know or believe that Orton gives this team the best chance to win?

Even with zero reps last year, a limited playbook, and an interim HC, Tim Tebow led a 17 point comeback, broke a 40 yard run and completed an amazing TD to Lloyd against the Raiders, and was a play away from beating the #1 defense in the NFL and a team that trashed the Orton-led Broncos earlier in the season.

So once again, despite how "polished" Orton looks not ONE single person can say, unequivocally that Orton gives this team the best chance to win any games. We don't know that because Tebow or Quinn haven't been given a chance, Orton has.

It's amazing how pathetically fickle some people are. Orton is the same guy he was last year and the year before that, the same guy Chicago rushed to the airport so they could steal our young and talented QB in exchange, while we have 2 relatively unknown yet talented QBs waiting, and for what?

Denver isn't going to challenge for the Super Bowl this year and Orton won't be here NEXT year, and the players on this roster haven't earned the right to bitch about who gives THEM the best chance to win based on practice, because they won 4 games last year and basically quit on defense for the past season and a half.

Give all 3 QBs the chance to prove they are winners or losers before declaring that one gives this team the best chance to succeed. When the ball is snapped in live action, Orton will be facing a pass rush and a defense, will he look better THEN? I have my doubts.

lgenf
08-05-2011, 10:47 AM
What is this "logic" thing you are using? Is that legal on the interwebs?

it's actually very hard for me to use Logic

as a Gator fan and now a Broncos fan I want to see TT succeed and I know the winner that he is

but really, two years with Orton and you know what you have and it's not great

three games with TT and you have no idea what you have, but it looked better, more fun and more inspiring than anything Orton had for 2 years

It's not like Denver was the only team that wanted TT on draft day - yes others did not jump up into the 1st round to get him, but wow, to hear some others on this forum you would think that he's never played QB and McD just picked him cause he's a nice guy

He was one of the most accurate QB's in NCAA history (and he played in the SEC) which is the most competitive division in NCAA football and he DOMINATED it. He DOMINATED it for 3 years - this isn't some schmuck that had a good year and everyone got prisoner of the moment

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 10:48 AM
You give too much credit to those three games.

Those that have been breaking down film, and seeing what Tebow SHOULD be doing, and what he is doing... are two different things. He's not a good passer, he doesn't make good reads, and he's very slow on making decisions on WHERE to throw the ball (not even mention the slow delivery itself).

If the coaches are reviewing film, and then seeing the same things in practices, and the players can see that Orton is performing better when the team is on the field working on their offense...... how do you then turn around and start the guy that is showing he doesn't have it, yet?

You can not simply tell the vets on the team that we are going to go with the lesser player purely based on what we HOPE will happen. Not.. NOT... when there is a player that is showing he's better ON the team. If Orton wasn't on the team, then it woudl be a competition between Tebow and Quinn....and it would be MUCH easier to justify the move to Tim when he's only going against Quinn.

This "prove your a winner" thing doesn't really hold water. It just doesn't. Because you have to be ON the field, leading the team, to "prove" this. The team, the players, the coaches alllllllllllllll want the player on the field that PROVES during practices that they KNOW what they are doing.

People keep saying that "Yeah, Orton looks good when no one is pressuring him." Fine, that may be VERY true and he may prove that he again can't handle the pressure during games. HOWEVER... how come Tebow isn't knocking people's socks off during these same practices that have no pressure??? If Orton can look good with no one hitting him, how come Tebow can't?

The coaches don't care about winning 3 years from now. THey care about winning NOW. Their jobs are dependant on how the team performs THIS season, not three seasons down the road. They have to show improvement. They have to win the locker room. They can't do that by ignoring the fact that Tim can't outplay Orton at this point. If/when it is obvious Orton just can't get it done, then Tebow better step up and show he can.

But believe me... most don't give NEARLY as much credence to those last three games as some here. Those last three games just don't mean squat if going head-to-head competition in practice, and you can't show you are the better QB.

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 10:50 AM
He was one of the most accurate QB's in NCAA history (and he played in the SEC) which is the most competitive division in NCAA football and he DOMINATED it. He DOMINATED it for 3 years - this isn't some schmuck that had a good year and everyone got prisoner of the moment

He is NOT an accurate passer. Thats been confirmed by ANYONE and EVERYONE that breaks down game film. Ron Jaworski is one of the VERY VEYR best about breaking down game film in ALLLLL of football, and he is very adament about the accuracy of Tim Tebow and very sure that Orton would be the starter (if still on the roster and barring injury) for the entire season. He believes Tebow to be THAT far behind.

lgenf
08-05-2011, 11:01 AM
You give too much credit to those three games.





NO I do not

I take those 3 games for what they are

A rookie with next to NO experience, practice or coaching out there in a game making bad decisions because the game is too fast for him to process at that time

It still doesn't change the fact that the TEAM played up to another level and was IN THE GAME way more than when the other guy had them going ALL SEASON LONG

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 11:12 AM
NO I do not

I take those 3 games for what they are

A rookie with next to NO experience, practice or coaching out there in a game making bad decisions because the game is too fast for him to process at that time

It still doesn't change the fact that the TEAM played up to another level and was IN THE GAME way more than when the other guy had them going ALL SEASON LONG

Yeah.. see what I mean? Not slanted at all. Just taking them for what they are.

We played a 7-7 Raiders team, and lost.

We played a 5-9 Houston team and won.

and a 8-7 Chargers team and lost.

None of these team were playoff bound when playing against us. Were we emotionally higher because we just brought in the infamous Tebow? Probably so. Do you feel we played the best of those three teams when the knew their playoff hopes were already squashed and the games didn't matter?

I've said time and time again that I would rather watch Tebow play and fail than another season of Orton. I still feel that way. However, I did NOT want to draft Tebow because I knew he wouldn't be a good NFL QB. So far, he can't beat out Orton. If thts the case, and he played Sooooooo well, then he should be able to do it DURING practice.. just as Orton is.

Tim's passing is a big concern for me. But not nearly as much as his inability to read defenses and make quick decisions. He still wants to make a quick read, if its not there... run. Thats a problem in the NFL, and its one that the coaches don't want to put on the field...... yet.

I STILL believe that Orton will be traded before long. It may take after a pre-season game or so... but I think Orton will be traded, thus taking the player away that is keeping Tebow out of the line-up.

lgenf
08-05-2011, 11:38 AM
He is NOT an accurate passer.

I tend to think 3 years of performance speaks otherwise, but

I can let the numbers do the talking if you need to




Career Leaders and Records for Passing Efficiency Rating
Leaders and Records: Season ▪ Career ▪ Yearly

Click on the Player for career record and accomplishments.
Leaders are based on statistics accumulated from 2000 to 2010.

Glossary ▪ CSV ▪ PRE ▪ Minimum 700 pass attempts
Rank Player Rate From To Last School
1. Sam Bradford 175.62 2007 2009 Oklahoma
2. Tim Tebow 170.79 2006 2009 Florida
3. Ryan Dinwiddie 168.89 2000 2003 Boise State
4. Colt Brennan 167.65 2005 2007 Hawaii
5. Kellen Moore 166.74 2008 2010 Boise State
6. Omar Jacobs 162.52 2003 2005 Bowling Green State
7. Matt Leinart 159.51 2003 2005 Southern California
8. Brian Brohm 157.92 2004 2007 Louisville
9. Bruce Gradkowski 157.38 2002 2005 Toledo
10. Case Keenum 155.62 2007 2010 Houston
11. Colt McCoy 155.01 2006 2009 Texas

the rest of the stats

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-rating-player-career.html

lgenf
08-05-2011, 11:39 AM
does the above post mean that they are all good, great QB's nope


but let's not say that TT is not accurate, the numbers tell a different story

Jsteve01
08-05-2011, 11:55 AM
does the above post mean that they are all good, great QB's nope


but let's not say that TT is not accurate, the numbers tell a different story

they are skewed though because of the offense he ran and the number of passes he threw to wide open receivers. Go back and find me film on timing routes and other staples of the NFL. I haven't seen it. It may be out there and I may be totally misrepresenting his ability but all i saw were super athletes find open spaces and settling.

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 11:58 AM
does the above post mean that they are all good, great QB's nope


but let's not say that TT is not accurate, the numbers tell a different story

Tebow is NOT an accurate passer. This is the perfect example of using college stats to try and prove something, yet when those that break down film and coverages.. know that Tebow is NOT accurate. Never has been. He's inaccurate from the pocket and gets even worse on the move (which isn't good). That beign because right now when Tebow is on the move, he's looking to run and not buy time to pass.

This is why "numbers" never tell the story and why you can't purely look at the digits on a piece of paper to tell you how good a player really is.

lgenf
08-05-2011, 12:15 PM
This is why "numbers" never tell the story and why you can't purely look at the digits on a piece of paper to tell you how good a player really is.

Couldn't agree with you more!

that is why I will let the Heisman Trophy speak, the national championships speak, the over-all record of Tebow as a starter speak and just an over-all complete BODY OF WORK in the most competitive division of college football.

it's not the Pro's - but when you combine that entire body fo work, and three Pro games where he was basically thrown to the wolves I like Denver's chances with 15 at QB

Do I think he will be ready for it this year, nope

Do I think it's better to get something for Orton now before he walks at the end of this year, yep

Do I think TT will do a better job (wins and losses) than Orton this year, yep

Do I think TT will be better next year that this one, yep

Because everything points in that direction

does it mean that Denver found it's new FQB - unknown at this point

I Eat Staples
08-05-2011, 12:24 PM
Isn't it welll known in the NFL that QBs normally take the BIG jump in year 3. Considering Tebow lost and offseason and he was a project from the beginning, wouldn't year 4 be a real expectation at this point?

But I still want Andrew Luck!!!

That usually applies to QBs who start from day one, and look good and promising but don't take it to ELITE status until year 3. Say a Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco, or Matt Ryan. It normally doesn't apply to QBs with severe flaws that struggle to be 2nd on the depth chart.

How many franchise QBs had this many flaws as a young player?

BroncoStud
08-05-2011, 12:42 PM
RAVAGE will be singing a different tune by week 4 when he's seen enough of 3rd down and time to punt again this year from Mr. Orton.

It will be quite funny.

And I think this debate is far more an indictment of Orton rather than a quest to validify Tebow. If Orton had been getting the job done at a level he needed to then neither Tebow nor Quinn would be so relentlessly pushed to take his job by the fanbase, you know, the ones who buy tickets, merchandise, and get the misery of watching Orton play on Sundays. Had Orton performed well enough and made enough plays when he needed to the fans wouldn't be all over this front office for change. People act like we don't watch the games or we don't understand football, but I've seen and played enough football to know GOOD QB play when I see it and Orton has yet to consistently show that and all signs point to him having hit his ceiling last year in McDumshits wideopen offense.

Orton is to blame for this controversy because he isn't good enough to prevent it.

NightTerror218
08-05-2011, 12:53 PM
RAVAGE will be singing a different tune by week 4 when he's seen enough of 3rd down and time to punt again this year from Mr. Orton.

It will be quite funny.

And I think this debate is far more an indictment of Orton rather than a quest to validify Tebow. If Orton had been getting the job done at a level he needed to then neither Tebow nor Quinn would be so relentlessly pushed to take his job by the fanbase, you know, the ones who buy tickets, merchandise, and get the misery of watching Orton play on Sundays. Had Orton performed well enough and made enough plays when he needed to the fans wouldn't be all over this front office for change. People act like we don't watch the games or we don't understand football, but I've seen and played enough football to know GOOD QB play when I see it and Orton has yet to consistently show that and all signs point to him having hit his ceiling last year in McDumshits wideopen offense.

Orton is to blame for this controversy because he isn't good enough to prevent it.


And i will be nursing some bruises from the wife.....after i break the tv and get in trouble

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 01:01 PM
RAVAGE will be singing a different tune by week 4 when he's seen enough of 3rd down and time to punt again this year from Mr. Orton.

It will be quite funny.

And I think this debate is far more an indictment of Orton rather than a quest to validify Tebow. If Orton had been getting the job done at a level he needed to then neither Tebow nor Quinn would be so relentlessly pushed to take his job by the fanbase, you know, the ones who buy tickets, merchandise, and get the misery of watching Orton play on Sundays. Had Orton performed well enough and made enough plays when he needed to the fans wouldn't be all over this front office for change. People act like we don't watch the games or we don't understand football, but I've seen and played enough football to know GOOD QB play when I see it and Orton has yet to consistently show that and all signs point to him having hit his ceiling last year in McDumshits wideopen offense.

Orton is to blame for this controversy because he isn't good enough to prevent it.

:lol: I've said all along that I want Tebow to play. I've also said all along that I never thought Tebow would make a good NFL QB. I do NOT think Orton is the future of this franchise and think of him as nothing more than a place-holding QB. I've said that I would rather watch Tebow play and fail then have another season of Orton boring me to tears. I've made that pretty clear over the last number of months.

However, as far as your last comment... I can turn that around. If Tebow truly was as good as some are making him out to be, SURELY he could out play the very QB you say can't play well. I mean, whats this say about Tebow? We've seen a lot of QBs come in and start from day 1. We've seen QBs come in and be chosen over the incumbents. We've seen teams very willing to hand the reigns over to the "inexperienced" QB time and time and time again.

Yet the controversay isn't because Orton isn't good enough, its because Tebow hasn't shown to be good enough. Thats the problem. Thats why we have been forced to keep Orton.

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 01:05 PM
that is why I will let the Heisman Trophy speak, the national championships speak, the over-all record of Tebow as a starter speak and just an over-all complete BODY OF WORK in the most competitive division of college football.



Yeah.. like Leinart. National Championships... mean nothing. Look at ALLLLLL the top QBs in the NFL, how many have won NCAA National Championships? How many of them have Heisman trophies (other than Bradford, the Heisman trophy winners aren't showing much promise in the NFL).

chazoe60
08-05-2011, 01:10 PM
RAVAGE will be singing a different tune by week 4 when he's seen enough of 3rd down and time to punt again this year from Mr. Orton.

It will be quite funny.

And I think this debate is far more an indictment of Orton rather than a quest to validify Tebow. If Orton had been getting the job done at a level he needed to then neither Tebow nor Quinn would be so relentlessly pushed to take his job by the fanbase, you know, the ones who buy tickets, merchandise, and get the misery of watching Orton play on Sundays. Had Orton performed well enough and made enough plays when he needed to the fans wouldn't be all over this front office for change. People act like we don't watch the games or we don't understand football, but I've seen and played enough football to know GOOD QB play when I see it and Orton has yet to consistently show that and all signs point to him having hit his ceiling last year in McDumshits wideopen offense.

Orton is to blame for this controversy because he isn't good enough to prevent it.

Rav knows how bad Orton is. But there is one fact that is undeniable and that is if Tebow can't beat out Orton it doesn't say anything about Orton it says a ton about Tebow though, unfortunately.

Orton is by most accounts average at best and below average in a lot of ways so if Tebow can't beat him then Tebow is below average. I want Tebow to succeed but if we stay with Orton this season then I'll be rooting for whoever the young buck that we draft is.

Also don't forget we haven't seen a single game yet remember Fox's comment about wanting a gamer? A lot of us, including myself, believe that Kyle Orton is the exact opposite of a gamer. If we are right it will show itself and Orton will be replaced. If we're wrong then we have our QB solution and that's a good thing, and I'm okay admitting I was wrong, I've never had to do it before but I bet I could manage. ;)


I would love to see some of the more delusional Orton fans take a hike just as some of the ridiculous Tebow fans need to shut up also. Orton has not in anyway earned the right to be thought of as the Denver Broncos franchise QB and some people need to open their eyes and see the glaring flaws in his game as well.

Poet
08-05-2011, 01:26 PM
Tebow is better than what the haters say and worse than what his lovers say.

The comment that Hoge made on Tebow being a sixth round pick at best was retarded. Most analysts had him late first down to the third round.

Adequate arm strength, good height, insane strength, above average accuracy and the highly touted intangibles makes you a far cry from a sixth round pick.

Lonestar
08-05-2011, 01:37 PM
Moreno didn't even play in the last two games. He was out with a hammy half way through the Oakland game. That's why Ball and Buck we carrying the mail.

Games 17

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011010213/2010/REG17/chargers@broncos/analyze/box-score

Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
T. Tebow 13 94 1 30
K. Moreno 6 41 0 35
L. Ball 6 21 0 17
C. Buckhalter
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010122609/2010/REG16/texans@broncos/analyze/box-score

Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
C. Buckhalter 11 42 1 10
L. Ball 5 38 0 15
T. Tebow 10 27 1 11
K. Moreno 7 19 0 11
Receiving REC YDS TD LG
B. Lloyd 5 111 0 41
J. Gaffney 4 90 0 50
C. Buckhalter 3 50 1 23T
K. Moreno 1 22 0 22
E. Royal 2 22 0 13
L. Ball

Must of been another K Moreno I was thinking of..

Northman
08-05-2011, 01:41 PM
Tebow is better than what the haters say and worse than what his lovers say.

The comment that Hoge made on Tebow being a sixth round pick at best was retarded. Most analysts had him late first down to the third round.

Adequate arm strength, good height, insane strength, above average accuracy and the highly touted intangibles makes you a far cry from a sixth round pick.

Yea, i saw some of the comments he made which had one complaining about Tebow's 1-5 pass/att ratio at one point. So i decided to look at Hoge's wonderful first 3 games as a starter, and keep in mind he had already played as a backup/relief back for one year prior to this. Im not impressed.

Game 1: 2 rushes, 18 yds, 1 catch, 8 yds

Game 2: 2 rushes, 8 yds

Game 3: 2 rushes, 3 yds.

So, i dont think homeboy really has a lot ground to talk shit about what Tebow has done in his 3 games compared to him. 3 games does not a QB make, nor any player. While im not shocked that Merrill made the comments im just baffled as too how naive he is.

Northman
08-05-2011, 01:55 PM
Sent Merrill a tweet. lmao


@merrilhoge (http://twitter.com/merrilhoge)- Just one question. How can you slam on a player like Tebow when you only had 6 rushes for 30 yds in YOUR first 3 games?

Jsteve01
08-05-2011, 02:05 PM
Sent Merrill a tweet. lmao


you realize that's a 5.0 ypc right north? But in all seriousness, I've been saying this for a while and I agree with Gannon on this. Im not sure what qualifies a mediocre full back to break down tape of a qb.

Now here's the thing. Jaws is saying essentially the same thing, which makes me wonder if Merril isn't just regurgitating crap that Ron said to him.

Northman
08-05-2011, 02:09 PM
you realize that's a 5.0 ypc right north? But in all seriousness, I've been saying this for a while and I agree with Gannon on this. Im not sure what qualifies a mediocre full back to break down tape of a qb.

Now here's the thing. Jaws is saying essentially the same thing, which makes me wonder if Merril isn't just regurgitating crap that Ron said to him.

I dont mind that Hoge has a opinion on Tebow. My problem is how he conveyed it and was so adamant that he was going to fail. The thing is, just like in Hoge's case, 3 games doesnt make a player. So it was a bit naive of Merrill to already claim Tebow a failure at this point. We just dont know until we see more of him, just like Pitt did with him.

NightTerror218
08-05-2011, 02:15 PM
I dont mind that Hoge has a opinion on Tebow. My problem is how he conveyed it and was so adamant that he was going to fail. The thing is, just like in Hoge's case, 3 games doesnt make a player. So it was a bit naive of Merrill to already claim Tebow a failure at this point. We just dont know until we see more of him, just like Pitt did with him.

Like talking shit behind someones back, except now adays you get caught.

underrated29
08-05-2011, 02:18 PM
you realize that's a 5.0 ypc right north? But in all seriousness, I've been saying this for a while and I agree with Gannon on this. Im not sure what qualifies a mediocre full back to break down tape of a qb.

Now here's the thing. Jaws is saying essentially the same thing, which makes me wonder if Merril isn't just regurgitating crap that Ron said to him.




Which is not good, because of all these reporters. Jaws is one that i really do like. I feel he is one of the most unbiased, and most educated. He breaks down what he sees on the play not what or who did it.

Its why I dont like collins- at all. Not a huge fan of the ex KC Qb either, forgot his name. Sometimes he is money and then other times he compares players to him and if they arent like him they arent good enough.

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 02:42 PM
This is why "numbers" never tell the story and why you can't purely look at the digits on a piece of paper to tell you how good a player really is.

But you can look at a practice field and tell how good a player is? You know, for wanting tebow to start so badly you sure do argue a lot for the other side. By the way I think orton is the greatest qb in the nfl! Can't you tell?

bcbronc
08-05-2011, 02:57 PM
A couple comments from the last couple of pages...

Peeps need to stop calling A. Smith a bad draft pick. CB is one of the hardest positions to learn at the NFL level, and AS was one of the top ball-hawks in the league in just his second year. Considering he was drafted for his ball-hawk instincts, imo his play in Detroit has justified his draft position (and he should only improve as he gets more experience). I agree it was moronic to trade him after his rookie season though.

I don't get why people keep giving Tebow's lack of development over his first 15 months a pass. "He didn't get reps with the first unit." So? You can't develop throwing to 2nd or 3rd stringers? Silly argument. Maybe if we're talking about lack of production on the field, lack of chemistry could be a factor. But you don't need to be throwing to first teamers to improve your release.

Same with the no off-season exuses. Tebow has money and connections...he couldn't find someone not on the Broncos coaching staff to work on his fundamentals over the summer. Gruden wasn't available? Obviously its preferable for Tebow to be working with his own coaching staff, but it isn't the only option.

The plain fact that Tebow's release seems not to have developed much in over a year as a professional is worrisome if you want to believe Tebow is a future franchise QB imo.

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 03:10 PM
But you can look at a practice field and tell how good a player is? You know, for wanting tebow to start so badly you sure do argue a lot for the other side. By the way I think orton is the greatest qb in the nfl! Can't you tell?

You don't think coaches can tell how GOOD a player is by how he's performing on the field? Since when is that the case? Aren't ALL players in the NFL evaluated on how they play in practice? Thats how ALL depth charts are determined and placed. Its ABSURD to think that the coaches can't determine how good a player is by how he performs on the practice field.

BTW, just heard a recording of Urban Meyer commenting on the question "How do you think Tebow will do as a pocket passer in the NFL"... his response " If you are asking Tim to be your typical pocket passer, well then, I have my concerns as well. I don't want to use the word aweful, but Tim is best when the play breaks down. But if you want him to be the guy that throws from the pocket, then I would certainly have my concerns."

I JUST heard this a few minutes ago on ESPN radio on the Doug Gottlieb show. For a guy that was as close to Tim as anyone, that says a lot about Tim's ability to be the passer. Simply taking off and running when things breaks down, doesn't work that well in the NFL.

Jsteve01
08-05-2011, 03:15 PM
You don't think coaches can tell how GOOD a player is by how he's performing on the field? Since when is that the case? Aren't ALL players in the NFL evaluated on how they play in practice? Thats how ALL depth charts are determined and placed. Its ABSURD to think that the coaches can't determine how good a player is by how he performs on the practice field.

BTW, just heard a recording of Urban Meyer commenting on the question "How do you think Tebow will do as a pocket passer in the NFL"... his response " If you are asking Tim to be your typical pocket passer, well then, I have my concerns as well. I don't want to use the word aweful, but Tim is best when the play breaks down. But if you want him to be the guy that throws from the pocket, then I would certainly have my concerns."

I JUST heard this a few minutes ago on ESPN radio on the Doug Gottlieb show. For a guy that was as close to Tim as anyone, that says a lot about Tim's ability to be the passer. Simply taking off and running when things breaks down, doesn't work that well in the NFL.

wow, that's not a ringing endorsement

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 03:18 PM
wow, that's not a ringing endorsement

Exactly. I was actually pretty surprised to hear that from Urban, ESPECIALLY when he said "I don't want to use the word aweful..." Urban is pretty close to Tebow personally. They are good friends.

Hopefully Tim's impromptu ability can overcome his passing deficientcies. I like everything about the guy, except his passing. Since its the NFL, to me, thats a pretty big concern.

Northman
08-05-2011, 03:21 PM
A couple comments from the last couple of pages...

Peeps need to stop calling A. Smith a bad draft pick. CB is one of the hardest positions to learn at the NFL level, and AS was one of the top ball-hawks in the league in just his second year. Considering he was drafted for his ball-hawk instincts, imo his play in Detroit has justified his draft position (and he should only improve as he gets more experience). I agree it was moronic to trade him after his rookie season though.

Smith did "ok" in Detroit. I saw him get torched PLENTY and his tackling skills still need a lot of work. But, as you pointed out he was still in his second season and his first as a starter. He is definitely an upgrade to what they had.


I don't get why people keep giving Tebow's lack of development over his first 15 months a pass. "He didn't get reps with the first unit." So? You can't develop throwing to 2nd or 3rd stringers? Silly argument. Maybe if we're talking about lack of production on the field, lack of chemistry could be a factor. But you don't need to be throwing to first teamers to improve your release.

Even Elway would tell you that working with first stringers is vastly different than working with 2nd and 3rd. Hell, i know that and i didnt even have to play professionally.


Same with the no off-season exuses. Tebow has money and connections...he couldn't find someone not on the Broncos coaching staff to work on his fundamentals over the summer. Gruden wasn't available? Obviously its preferable for Tebow to be working with his own coaching staff, but it isn't the only option.

We dont know what he did in the offseason so its a bit premature to assume he didnt work out. Plus, with the lockout i dont think any player was pushing real hard as they didnt want to get injured while the season and league was in question.


The plain fact that Tebow's release seems not to have developed much in over a year as a professional is worrisome if you want to believe Tebow is a future franchise QB imo.

As already pointed out a hundred times, many QB's have odd releases. Does Tebow need work? Yep. Has he had enough time in the same scheme, enough time in the league, enough time in gametime situations? Nope.

Jsteve01
08-05-2011, 03:26 PM
A couple comments from the last couple of pages...

Peeps need to stop calling A. Smith a bad draft pick. CB is one of the hardest positions to learn at the NFL level, and AS was one of the top ball-hawks in the league in just his second year. Considering he was drafted for his ball-hawk instincts, imo his play in Detroit has justified his draft position (and he should only improve as he gets more experience). I agree it was moronic to trade him after his rookie season though.

I don't get why people keep giving Tebow's lack of development over his first 15 months a pass. "He didn't get reps with the first unit." So? You can't develop throwing to 2nd or 3rd stringers? Silly argument. Maybe if we're talking about lack of production on the field, lack of chemistry could be a factor. But you don't need to be throwing to first teamers to improve your release.

Same with the no off-season exuses. Tebow has money and connections...he couldn't find someone not on the Broncos coaching staff to work on his fundamentals over the summer. Gruden wasn't available? Obviously its preferable for Tebow to be working with his own coaching staff, but it isn't the only option.

The plain fact that Tebow's release seems not to have developed much in over a year as a professional is worrisome if you want to believe Tebow is a future franchise QB imo.

you had me until you started talking about release...his release has changed to the point that you can tell he's thinking about it too much.

My dad who was a very good basketball coach and I were talking about this last night. He said and I agree of course when a guy gets to a certain level whether it's throwing or shooting a ball, you try to avoid tweaking it too much if it's been effective to that point. I think you can do minor things with it but you don't want to go crazy or you have a guy thinking too much rather than just throwing the freaking ball when he runs progressions.

See Reggie Miller, Phillip Rivers, Brett Favre etc.

Jsteve01
08-05-2011, 03:28 PM
Smith did "ok" in Detroit. I saw him get torched PLENTY and his tackling skills still need a lot of work. But, as you pointed out he was still in his second season and his first as a starter. He is definitely an upgrade to what they had.



Even Elway would tell you that working with first stringers is vastly different than working with 2nd and 3rd. Hell, i know that and i didnt even have to play professionally.



We dont know what he did in the offseason so its a bit premature to assume he didnt work out. Plus, with the lockout i dont think any player was pushing real hard as they didnt want to get injured while the season and league was in question.



As already pointed out a hundred times, many QB's have odd releases. Does Tebow need work? Yep. Has he had enough time in the same scheme, enough time in the league, enough time in gametime situations? Nope.

wow i agreed with everything you said

Northman
08-05-2011, 03:29 PM
wow i agreed with everything you said

Did hell freeze over? :lol:

underrated29
08-05-2011, 05:15 PM
Did hell freeze over? :lol:



I dont know is my ex wife sane?.... *runs to check*



Nope- pretty sure it was just a cold front passing through. All is clear.

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 05:25 PM
You don't think coaches can tell how GOOD a player is by how he's performing on the field? Since when is that the case? Aren't ALL players in the NFL evaluated on how they play in practice? Thats how ALL depth charts are determined and placed. Its ABSURD to think that the coaches can't determine how good a player is by how he performs on the practice field.

BTW, just heard a recording of Urban Meyer commenting on the question "How do you think Tebow will do as a pocket passer in the NFL"... his response " If you are asking Tim to be your typical pocket passer, well then, I have my concerns as well. I don't want to use the word aweful, but Tim is best when the play breaks down. But if you want him to be the guy that throws from the pocket, then I would certainly have my concerns."

I JUST heard this a few minutes ago on ESPN radio on the Doug Gottlieb show. For a guy that was as close to Tim as anyone, that says a lot about Tim's ability to be the passer. Simply taking off and running when things breaks down, doesn't work that well in the NFL.

Well I know john fox said he wants a "gamer" not just "a good practice player". So that tells me no, you don't judge a player by just practice.
I agree if they try to make tebow just a pocket passer that is not his strength. Why don't we have orton running bootleg after bootleg and plays for his legs? Because he's a pocket passer. Tebow has unique talents you need to use, not try to force him into a box.

NightTerror218
08-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Well I know john fox said he wants a "gamer" not just "a good practice player". So that tells me no, you don't judge a player by just practice.
I agree if they try to make tebow just a pocket passer that is not his strength. Why don't we have orton running bootleg after bootleg and plays for his legs? Because he's a pocket passer. Tebow has unique talents you need to use, not try to force him into a box.

Tim is best extending plays when they break down....he wont sit there as pocket collapses he will move. He will sit there for initial reads and throws until it breaks down. He will keep things alive and one thing he might be able to do is manage the clock well with running out of bounds, or moving about killing the clock, or sliding to stay inbounds to keep clock running.

Ravage!!!
08-05-2011, 05:55 PM
Well I know john fox said he wants a "gamer" not just "a good practice player". So that tells me no, you don't judge a player by just practice.
I agree if they try to make tebow just a pocket passer that is not his strength. Why don't we have orton running bootleg after bootleg and plays for his legs? Because he's a pocket passer. Tebow has unique talents you need to use, not try to force him into a box.

Force him into a box? Its called a pocket!! (joke)

But the truth of the matter is simple... coaches know if players are good or if they are GOOD ENOUGH to play based on their practices. Teams make their rosters and their depth charts based on how they play in practice. So yeah, I am pretty damned sure that the coaches know how good a player is based on how he practices.

As far as "forcing" Tebow to play in a box... hardly. But to be successful in the NFL, you HAVE to be successful throwing the ball from the pocket. Its as simple as that. Sure teams want you to be able to make plays with yoru feet when its needed. Sure we want you to run when its the best option. But for the long term, and the continued success in the NFL...you MUST be a good passer from the pocket.

The best QBs in the NFL prove that.

Jsteve01
08-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Did hell freeze over? :lol:

no...I've been drinking...let me reevaluate my position in the morning

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 07:20 PM
Force him into a box? Its called a pocket!! (joke)

But the truth of the matter is simple... coaches know if players are good or if they are GOOD ENOUGH to play based on their practices. Teams make their rosters and their depth charts based on how they play in practice. So yeah, I am pretty damned sure that the coaches know how good a player is based on how he practices.

As far as "forcing" Tebow to play in a box... hardly. But to be successful in the NFL, you HAVE to be successful throwing the ball from the pocket. Its as simple as that. Sure teams want you to be able to make plays with yoru feet when its needed. Sure we want you to run when its the best option. But for the long term, and the continued success in the NFL...you MUST be a good passer from the pocket.

The best QBs in the NFL prove that.

Again, then why did Fox state he wants a gamer not just a good practice player? And why are there preseason games? He didn't say, "I will know how good a guy is from practice" he said he wanted "not a good practice player". Not sure why I always have to state these things twice.

NightTerror218
08-05-2011, 07:24 PM
Again, then why did Fox state he wants a gamer not just a good practice player? And why are there preseason games? He didn't say, "I will know how good a guy is from practice" he said he wanted "not a good practice player". Not sure why I always have to state these things twice.

Dont even try he will agrue till his face is blue....I tried earlier, I asked how come some starters and who makes the 53 man roster i decided during preseason games? He never really answered it.

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 07:27 PM
Force him into a box? Its called a pocket!! (joke)

But the truth of the matter is simple... coaches know if players are good or if they are GOOD ENOUGH to play based on their practices. Teams make their rosters and their depth charts based on how they play in practice. So yeah, I am pretty damned sure that the coaches know how good a player is based on how he practices.

As far as "forcing" Tebow to play in a box... hardly. But to be successful in the NFL, you HAVE to be successful throwing the ball from the pocket. Its as simple as that. Sure teams want you to be able to make plays with yoru feet when its needed. Sure we want you to run when its the best option. But for the long term, and the continued success in the NFL...you MUST be a good passer from the pocket.

The best QBs in the NFL prove that.

Tebow can be successful throwing from the pocket at times, but his real strengths are moving around making plays and keeping the defense in check by always being a threat to take off (a la Rothlesburger, but a little different skill set wise). Hence Myers quote of "if they are trying to make him a pocket passer".....he will never be that, and he doesn't need to be. Just like Brady doesn't need to run for 100 yards in a game like Tebow is capable of.

Players are different and IMO Tebow has a unique skill set, to make him try to play like Orton is asinine and he won't succeed doing that.

bcbronc
08-05-2011, 07:36 PM
Even Elway would tell you that working with first stringers is vastly different than working with 2nd and 3rd. Hell, i know that and i didnt even have to play professionally.


Okay, how so? How does it make a difference in developing a QBs fundamentals who he's throwing to? I understand the difference when it comes to starting a game--chemistry, trust, etc--but that's not what we are talking about. When you have as much room for improvement as Tebow does, he should be improving whether he's throwing to starters, back-ups or scout team.



We dont know what he did in the offseason so its a bit premature to assume he didnt work out. Plus, with the lockout i dont think any player was pushing real hard as they didnt want to get injured while the season and league was in question.

Nope, never said he didn't work in the offseason. In fact, I'd pretty much guarantee he did put in some offseason work outs. My point is that there being a lock out isn't an exuse for not improving his throwing fundamentals. Maybe we're just seeing a transition stage where his new motion isn't yet natural. Certainly a possibility. But if that's not it, then his lack of improvement today has to be seen as discouraging, lockout or no.



As already pointed out a hundred times, many QB's have odd releases. Does Tebow need work? Yep. Has he had enough time in the same scheme, enough time in the league, enough time in gametime situations? Nope.

Yup, sometimes a QB with a hitch in his delivery can become a great QB. And other times a QB with picture perfect form doesn't have what it takes to make it. The key is consistently and quickness of release. Tebow, as of now, has neither. You see it when he puts an easy pass into his recievers feet, or misses a window because it takes too long for the ball to get out of his hands. Can these things improve? Yup. Can he make plays if they don't? Yup. Can he be a starting QB in the NFL with his current throwing mechanics? Nope.

NightTerror218
08-05-2011, 07:36 PM
Tebow can be successful throwing from the pocket at times, but his real strengths are moving around making plays and keeping the defense in check by always being a threat to take off (a la Rothlesburger, but a little different skill set wise). Hence Myers quote of "if they are trying to make him a pocket passer".....he will never be that, and he doesn't need to be. Just like Brady doesn't need to run for 100 yards in a game like Tebow is capable of.

Players are different and IMO Tebow has a unique skill set, to make him try to play like Orton is asinine and he won't succeed doing that.

I believe Tebow will stay in the pocket for first initial reads of defense and then either make a quick pass or wait for a route to open...if nothin he will improvise making the defense adjust to him and changing everything....that is where someone can pop open or he can run....his skill set will make a defense have to adjust more on the run then a normal QB

NightTerror218
08-05-2011, 07:38 PM
Okay, how so? How does it make a difference in developing a QBs fundamentals who he's throwing to? I understand the difference when it comes to starting a game--chemistry, trust, etc--but that's not what we are talking about. When you have as much room for improvement as Tebow does, he should be improving whether he's throwing to starters, back-ups or scout team.




Nope, never said he didn't work in the offseason. In fact, I'd pretty much guarantee he did put in some offseason work outs. My point is that there being a lock out isn't an exuse for not improving his throwing fundamentals. Maybe we're just seeing a transition stage where his new motion isn't yet natural. Certainly a possibility. But if that's not it, then his lack of improvement today has to be seen as discouraging, lockout or no.




Yup, sometimes a QB with a hitch in his delivery can become a great QB. And other times a QB with picture perfect form doesn't have what it takes to make it. The key is consistently and quickness of release. Tebow, as of now, has neither. You see it when he puts an easy pass into his recievers feet, or misses a window because it takes too long for the ball to get out of his hands. Can these things improve? Yup. Can he make plays if they don't? Yup. Can he be a starting QB in the NFL with his current throwing mechanics? Nope.


Apparently its not all that bad because he is not that inaccurate. He had a 50% in 3 starts, 1 against best defense in league the other in blackhole and 1st start ever. He was known for being accurate in FL. He was accurate in the preseason last year. He has not that bad at practice he is just not polished and crisp.

Dzone
08-05-2011, 07:43 PM
U*h oh, Tebows comments are blowing up in his face..on a national scale...what a soap opera...

Lonestar
08-05-2011, 07:45 PM
Not sure if this was posted or not but thought I add it to the fray..


Rich Gannon sticks up for Tim Tebow
August, 4, 2011

By Burger Bill Williamson

Former Oakland quarterback Rich Gannon questioned the ability of Hoge -- a former running back -- to evaluate quarterback play. Wednesday on “SportsCenter,” Hoge was highly skeptical of Tebow’s ability to become an effective NFL quarterback. James tweeted about it later Wednesday, supporting Tebow.


In limited action last season, Tim Tebow threw for 654 yards and ran for 227 more.
Continuing the firestorm, Gannon spoke about it Thursday on his Sirius radio show. “It bothers me when old running backs or old offensive linemen who’ve now become analysts start analyzing the quarterback position," Gannon said. "They’re not experts at it. They’ve never played the position. I’m always curious, when they put on the tape, what are they watching? Are they watching footwork? Are they watching mechanics? Are they watching anticipation? Do they understand what the quarterback is told in terms of the progressions, where the read is? You know, so those are the things that really bother me and I just thought he came out and his comments were very strong and I thought a little out of line when you talk about Tim Tebow.”

Gannon said he thinks Tebow will succeed in the NFL.

“[Tebow] did some good things last year,” Gannon said. “I think he has a bright future in the league. He’s no different than a lot of young quarterbacks. There’s things he’s got to work on, things he has to get cleaned up. The only way he’s going to do that is to go play. read more at
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/30098/rich-gannon-sticks-up-for-tim-tebow

Dzone
08-05-2011, 08:04 PM
^Right on Rich Gannon...always a class act!!!!

Dzone
08-05-2011, 08:06 PM
Hoge is always wearing brown suits...he obviously knows about as much about fashion as he does quarterbacking-ZILCH

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 08:07 PM
Hoge was only trying to get attention because ESPN just hired a few guys and he was scared of losing his job. No one really cares anyway.

broncobryce
08-05-2011, 08:11 PM
Apparently its not all that bad because he is not that inaccurate. He had a 50% in 3 starts, 1 against best defense in league the other in blackhole and 1st start ever. He was known for being accurate in FL. He was accurate in the preseason last year. He has not that bad at practice he is just not polished and crisp.

Some will say you can't his 3 starts from last season, you know REAL GAMES. They prefer you only use practice.....ha ha ha

Northman
08-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Okay, how so? How does it make a difference in developing a QBs fundamentals who he's throwing to? I understand the difference when it comes to starting a game--chemistry, trust, etc--but that's not what we are talking about. When you have as much room for improvement as Tebow does, he should be improving whether he's throwing to starters, back-ups or scout team.

The problem with running with 2nd and 3rd stringers is your dealing with a lot more inexperienced/subpar players. Meaning, they wont run the routes correctly, they cant catch, they cant block very well, etc. So not only does Tebow struggle and get frustrated because of whats going on around him but when trying to apply that during his practice time he doesnt have the top tier players to work with.


Nope, never said he didn't work in the offseason. In fact, I'd pretty much guarantee he did put in some offseason work outs. My point is that there being a lock out isn't an exuse for not improving his throwing fundamentals. Maybe we're just seeing a transition stage where his new motion isn't yet natural. Certainly a possibility. But if that's not it, then his lack of improvement today has to be seen as discouraging, lockout or no.Well, we are also talking about one practice according to reports or at least people reporting on here. So while the one bad practice made Fox make his initial decision nothing has been said about him stinking it up the rest of the time. Time will tell i guess.


Yup, sometimes a QB with a hitch in his delivery can become a great QB. And other times a QB with picture perfect form doesn't have what it takes to make it. The key is consistently and quickness of release. Tebow, as of now, has neither. You see it when he puts an easy pass into his recievers feet, or misses a window because it takes too long for the ball to get out of his hands. Can these things improve? Yup. Can he make plays if they don't? Yup. Can he be a starting QB in the NFL with his current throwing mechanics? Nope.

And like i said, he can fix the mechanics. He's played 3 games and played well compared to other young QB's. No one has denied that he has things to work on, i would expect a young QB no matter who it is to have some growing pains. Most QB's dont even break out until their 3rd year depending on their surrounding talent (IE Big Ben).

Dzone
08-05-2011, 09:35 PM
Wow. Jim Rome really ripped Tebow. real bad. Worse than Hoge. I used to like Jim Rome but the dude is really annoying to me lately. Even before he ripped Tebow today and told Tebow to Man up and Ball up, I was getting tired of his noise...Someone should send Rome the video of Jim Everett kicking his ass LOL...talk about a little punk who mouths off

Seriously, have you listend to Romes radio show lately? Man, its just a bunch of noise and racket...damn, that was the worst Tebow diss I ever heard...
You know, we shouldnt be surprised. The National Media has been drooling for Tebow to make a slip up. Paiges quote of Tebow has now gone National and mainstream...This is what they have been wanting..any kind of dirt on Tebow..now they have some...They are jump[ing all over it...they want to say :"See, he really is a jerk after all."..Thats what jerks like Rome love to do.

Northman
08-05-2011, 09:38 PM
Wow. Jim Rome really ripped Tebow. real bad. Worse than Hoge. I used to like Jim Rome but the dude is really annoying to me lately. Even before he ripped Tebow today and told Tebow to Man up and Ball up, I was getting tired of his noise...Someone should send Rome the video of Jim Everett kicking his ass LOL...talk about a little punk who mouths off

Seriously, have you listend to Romes radio show lately? Man, its just a bunch of noise and racket...damn, that was the worst Tebow diss I ever heard...

That Everett moment was classic. Too funny.

Dzone
08-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Now the media has a reason to attack him as a person, rather than just ripping his game. I hope it stops, but it seems to be gaining steam. Portraying Tebow as a spoiled brat who expects to have the job handed to him because he is Tebow.

Northman
08-06-2011, 12:05 AM
Now the media has a reason to attack him as a person, rather than just ripping his game. I hope it stops, but it seems to be gaining steam. Portraying Tebow as a spoiled brat who expects to have the job handed to him because he is Tebow.

It was bound to happen at some point. I guess the real test is how he deals with it from here.

Tned
08-06-2011, 01:05 AM
Now the media has a reason to attack him as a person, rather than just ripping his game. I hope it stops, but it seems to be gaining steam. Portraying Tebow as a spoiled brat who expects to have the job handed to him because he is Tebow.

Yes, but at the same time you are seeing guys like Collinsworth, Gannon and others pointing to what he did in the last three games as an indication that Tebow has a good chance of being a productive starter.

Canmore
08-06-2011, 01:25 AM
Yes, but at the same time you are seeing guys like Collinsworth, Gannon and others pointing to what he did in the last three games as an indication that Tebow has a good chance of being a productive starter.

Tebows three games were exciting. He was excited, the team was excited and the fans were excited. Give me some more of that.

Stargazer
08-06-2011, 01:26 AM
John Fox started Matt Moore in 2010 to begin the season. After sucking, he was yanked and 2nd round rookie draft pick Jimmy Clausen was inserted. lol

And this is our new coach. lol

Anyway, I bet he's over the moon seeing a guy like Orton in practice.

Jsteve01
08-06-2011, 01:41 AM
John Fox started Matt Moore in 2010 to begin the season. After sucking, he was yanked and 2nd round rookie draft pick Jimmy Clausen was inserted. lol

And this is our new coach. lol

Anyway, I bet he's over the moon seeing a guy like Orton in practice.

Yes, if you've seen, Claussen and Pike play then you know John is excited about this roster lol

Dzone
08-06-2011, 09:58 AM
Go to the 5:00 mark on this show where they talk about Tebow. Interesting.
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=6837760&s=espn

Ravage!!!
08-06-2011, 10:35 AM
^Right on Rich Gannon...always a class act!!!!

Well, you are consistant. Hoge and Jim Rome say something negative about Tebow... and they know nothing, their show sucks, and their style sucks. Rich Gannon says something positive, and he's the class act of the NFL. :lol:

Glad to see you are keeping the open mind. :beer:

Ravage!!!
08-06-2011, 10:42 AM
Again, then why did Fox state he wants a gamer not just a good practice player? And why are there preseason games? He didn't say, "I will know how good a guy is from practice" he said he wanted "not a good practice player". Not sure why I always have to state these things twice.

You can't perform crappy in practice and expect the coach to start you. Thats been the way it has always been. If you can't show you can do it in practice, I PROMISE you, you won't get the start. Fox, hell EVERY coach, wants a guy thats a "gamer." But that doesn't mean you can be completely outperformed all week long by someone else on the roster and expect to get the start. I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to you.


Dont even try he will agrue till his face is blue....I tried earlier, I asked how come some starters and who makes the 53 man roster i decided during preseason games? He never really answered it.
Actually .. I DID answer you. I stated that if there were no pre-season games, we would most probably always see the same rosters as we see with pre-season games. Most coaches don't really care for pre-season games anyway. Those are for the fans and for the owners to make some additional money while NOT paying the players. Huh, go figure that, huh?


I believe Tebow will stay in the pocket for first initial reads of defense and then either make a quick pass or wait for a route to open...if nothin he will improvise making the defense adjust to him and changing everything....that is where someone can pop open or he can run....his skill set will make a defense have to adjust more on the run then a normal QB

Thats what everyone wants, ideally. The problem, as of yet, is that he doesn't do well going through is progressions and instead of moving to buy time, he moves to RUN. Moving in the pocket to buy time, is still a pocket passer. Moving to run, isn't.

Another problem (and one we all hope improves of course) is that Tebow isn't a very good passer when on the move. Which is odd. I'm guessing because when he started to roll out from the pocket, he generally was looking to run the ball instead of passing it.

broncobryce
08-06-2011, 01:45 PM
You can't perform crappy in practice and expect the coach to start you. Thats been the way it has always been. If you can't show you can do it in practice, I PROMISE you, you won't get the start. Fox, hell EVERY coach, wants a guy thats a "gamer." But that doesn't mean you can be completely outperformed all week long by someone else on the roster and expect to get the start. I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to you.


Actually .. I DID answer you. I stated that if there were no pre-season games, we would most probably always see the same rosters as we see with pre-season games. Most coaches don't really care for pre-season games anyway. Those are for the fans and for the owners to make some additional money while NOT paying the players. Huh, go figure that, huh?



Thats what everyone wants, ideally. The problem, as of yet, is that he doesn't do well going through is progressions and instead of moving to buy time, he moves to RUN. Moving in the pocket to buy time, is still a pocket passer. Moving to run, isn't.

Another problem (and one we all hope improves of course) is that Tebow isn't a very good passer when on the move. Which is odd. I'm guessing because when he started to roll out from the pocket, he generally was looking to run the ball instead of passing it.

That's simply not true. Are you going to take all your "opinions" directly from Hoge or do you have some of your own? And Tebow has not "sucked" in practice. Reports are he had one bad practice and has been doing better since then. Again, I can see how badly you want him to start.

Agent of Orange
08-06-2011, 01:58 PM
That's simply not true. Are you going to take all your "opinions" directly from Hoge or do you have some of your own? And Tebow has not "sucked" in practice. Reports are he had one bad practice and has been doing better since then. Again, I can see how badly you want him to start.

People are too wrapped up around what Hoge is saying. Regardless of mechanics, he had a passer rating of over 80, which is great for a rookie. Orton had a career year last year and Tebow was still only 5 points behind him. Everything that Hoge was saying, as a way of suggesting Tebow can't pass in the NFL, simply isn't supported by data. It's actually the opposite.

Ravage!!!
08-06-2011, 01:58 PM
That's simply not true. Are you going to take all your "opinions" directly from Hoge or do you have some of your own? And Tebow has not "sucked" in practice. Reports are he had one bad practice and has been doing better since then. Again, I can see how badly you want him to start.

Please. Hoge isn't the onlly one that has shown Tebow to be an inaccurate passer. Tebow is NOT a good passer. He's inaccurate. I'm sorry that you find that to be not true, but thats how I certainly see it. Thats how many scouts saw it. Thats how Dilfer sees it. Thats how Jaworski sees it. Thats how Hoge sees it (before anyone tells me that Hoge doesn't have a right to an opinion on QBs because he didn't play the positin while playing in the pros, how many coaches in the NFL played QB in the NFL?).

You can't possibly think I'm the only one to state this.

Also "performing better" doesn't mean performing well in practice. Performing "better" than your previous bad performance, just means that. Better than bad. I absolutely believe Tebow is improving. Doesn't mean I believe he's going to be a good QB in the NFL.

One more thing. I'm not trying to convince you on how badly I want Tebow to play over Orton. Seriously, I coudln't care less on how much you believe that, because I don't give a shit if you do or don't. But just because I want Tebow to start over Orton doesn't mean I don't have the ability to point out the deficientcies that Tebow has. Just because I think Orton is about as ordinary as it comes when coming to NFL QB'ing... it doesn't mean I think he is SOOO bad as some on this message board, as I find most of those comments completely exaggerated.

It tells me a LOT when Tebow can't outplay Orton. I think it should tell a lot of people something. I DO believe that we aren't going to the playoffs this year no matter what, so I would MUCH rather watch Tebow in the lineup over Orton. Orton does NOTHING for me. He gives me NO hope whatsoever. But I also believe that Tebow NEEDS to show that he belongs on that field by being BETTER than the other players at his position that are on the team. If he can't read the defense across the LoS, thats a BIG problem.

I'm certain that I'm more willing to criticize Tebow over some is because I don't think he should have been drafted to begin with. Some of you are so excited about Tebow that you will over look everything and believe him to be the savior of this team. I have to see it first. I dont dislike him. As a matter of fact, I like him a great deal.....as a person. Now he has to earn me liking him as a QB and he has to start by BEATING OUT THE LIKES OF ORTON. If he can't do that.... then... well..................

MileHiWildcat
08-06-2011, 05:35 PM
Who the hell is Merril Hodge ? Former Steelers scrub.

broncobryce
08-06-2011, 07:44 PM
Please. Hoge isn't the onlly one that has shown Tebow to be an inaccurate passer. Tebow is NOT a good passer. He's inaccurate. I'm sorry that you find that to be not true, but thats how I certainly see it. Thats how many scouts saw it. Thats how Dilfer sees it. Thats how Jaworski sees it. Thats how Hoge sees it (before anyone tells me that Hoge doesn't have a right to an opinion on QBs because he didn't play the positin while playing in the pros, how many coaches in the NFL played QB in the NFL?).

You can't possibly think I'm the only one to state this.

Also "performing better" doesn't mean performing well in practice. Performing "better" than your previous bad performance, just means that. Better than bad. I absolutely believe Tebow is improving. Doesn't mean I believe he's going to be a good QB in the NFL.

One more thing. I'm not trying to convince you on how badly I want Tebow to play over Orton. Seriously, I coudln't care less on how much you believe that, because I don't give a shit if you do or don't. But just because I want Tebow to start over Orton doesn't mean I don't have the ability to point out the deficientcies that Tebow has. Just because I think Orton is about as ordinary as it comes when coming to NFL QB'ing... it doesn't mean I think he is SOOO bad as some on this message board, as I find most of those comments completely exaggerated.

It tells me a LOT when Tebow can't outplay Orton. I think it should tell a lot of people something. I DO believe that we aren't going to the playoffs this year no matter what, so I would MUCH rather watch Tebow in the lineup over Orton. Orton does NOTHING for me. He gives me NO hope whatsoever. But I also believe that Tebow NEEDS to show that he belongs on that field by being BETTER than the other players at his position that are on the team. If he can't read the defense across the LoS, thats a BIG problem.

I'm certain that I'm more willing to criticize Tebow over some is because I don't think he should have been drafted to begin with. Some of you are so excited about Tebow that you will over look everything and believe him to be the savior of this team. I have to see it first. I dont dislike him. As a matter of fact, I like him a great deal.....as a person. Now he has to earn me liking him as a QB and he has to start by BEATING OUT THE LIKES OF ORTON. If he can't do that.... then... well..................

For the second time (again) you stated "Tebow isn't a very good passer when on the move". That's what I'm questioning where you got that from since Hoge JUST stated it. I've heard people question him from the pocket before but not on the move, only Hoge.

As far as practice, here's what we know.
1) Orton was great in practice last camp too, which is why he got another year on his contract. Then he proceeded to be Orton when the real games started.

2) Tebow wasn't as good in practice last year, he steps it up during real games when it counts.

For these reasons alone, I have no idea why Orton is running with solely with the 1's. We will see when preseason games hit if Tebow gets a chance to play with the starters.

Lonestar
08-06-2011, 08:23 PM
For the second time (again) you stated "Tebow isn't a very good passer when on the move". That's what I'm questioning where you got that from since Hoge JUST stated it. I've heard people question him from the pocket before but not on the move, only Hoge.

As far as practice, here's what we know.
1) Orton was great in practice last camp too, which is why he got another year on his contract. Then he proceeded to be Orton when the real games started.

2) Tebow wasn't as good in practice last year, he steps it up during real games when it counts.

For these reasons alone, I have no idea why Orton is running with solely with the 1's. We will see when preseason games hit if Tebow gets a chance to play with the starters.


Just like last year Josh knew he had to have the reps with teh newbies. He knew that Tim was not ready and he needed to win some games this/that year..

I was dismayed to hear that Tim the backup got no reps at all through out the year..

NightTerror218
08-06-2011, 08:57 PM
You can't perform crappy in practice and expect the coach to start you. Thats been the way it has always been. If you can't show you can do it in practice, I PROMISE you, you won't get the start. Fox, hell EVERY coach, wants a guy thats a "gamer." But that doesn't mean you can be completely outperformed all week long by someone else on the roster and expect to get the start. I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to you.


Actually .. I DID answer you. I stated that if there were no pre-season games, we would most probably always see the same rosters as we see with pre-season games. Most coaches don't really care for pre-season games anyway. Those are for the fans and for the owners to make some additional money while NOT paying the players. Huh, go figure that, huh?



Thats what everyone wants, ideally. The problem, as of yet, is that he doesn't do well going through is progressions and instead of moving to buy time, he moves to RUN. Moving in the pocket to buy time, is still a pocket passer. Moving to run, isn't.

Another problem (and one we all hope improves of course) is that Tebow isn't a very good passer when on the move. Which is odd. I'm guessing because when he started to roll out from the pocket, he generally was looking to run the ball instead of passing it.


you still didnt answer the question, when you got 75 players going into preseason games (after new CBA) why do we have preseason games to decide who makes roster?

If tebow does not move to run then where did the jump pass come from, or his first TD pass come from?

If he cant pass from the pocket either then how come he completed 4o passes in 3 games. If he was inaccurate then why was he leading SEC in it when in college and ad 64& last preseason.

And tell me the % completions he has in practice? Since you know everything.

I Eat Staples
08-06-2011, 09:35 PM
You guys just don't like when people point out Tebow's obvious flaws.

Stargazer
08-07-2011, 02:27 AM
Tebows three games were exciting. He was excited, the team was excited and the fans were excited. Give me some more of that.

I was entertained!

:beer:

I want to see more of it too! Footballs back, Broncos in training camp, new draft picks, new players, new regime. But, no... We have this buzzkill QB scenario.

:tsk: