Schefter declares Orton starter for this season

[MileHighCrew]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3214/kyle-orton

Not even waiting for the games, Orton not to be traded and is the man in Denver this year according to Schefter.

[MileHighCrew]

another link http://twitter.com/#!/evansilva/status/98772994708611073 and here http://twitter.com/#!/AdamSchefter

[BroncoStud]

Wait until the boos rain down. We'll be seeing Quinn or Tebow before we know it.

[Ravage!!!]

Glad its a solved issue so we can just move on. Its not going to cure the QB controversay because that will continue throughout the season.

Truth be known, once I heard Jaws tell us that Orton will be the starting QB for the season (IF he was on the roster) back in April, I felt confident this would happen if Orton wasn't traded.

Lets just get the season rolling.

[BroncoStud]

Glad its a solved issue so we can just move on. Its not going to cure the QB controversay because that will continue throughout the season.

Truth be known, once I heard Jaws tell us that Orton will be the starting QB for the season (IF he was on the roster) back in April, I felt confident this would happen if Orton wasn't traded.

Lets just get the season rolling.

It really just shows how bad that extension screwed the Broncos. McDaniels gave Orton $9 MILLION for NO REASON, he would have taken less, he essentially made Orton untradable unless a team is desperate. I still think Miami or Washington might make a run for him though as they are both desperate at the QB position.

Still, with every 3rd down not converted, with every botched comeback, the pressure will mount.

And worst of all, we may have NO clue what to do in 2012 when it's draft time. That's what really screws over the franchise. Orton is a goner, he will be out of here, Quinn also, it's Tebow's fault if he apparently looks this bad in practice though.

[underrated29]

Have no fear. Orton will either get A- hurt or B- pulled after a crappy game and Tebow will come in a roaring. I still think Tebow might close the gap during pre season. But thats just me.

[BroncoStud]

Have no fear. Orton will either get A- hurt or B- pulled after a crappy game and Tebow will come in a roaring. I still think Tebow might close the gap during pre season. But thats just me.

Orton has never finished a season healthy and he he has never success in a pro-style offense. He certainly has NEVER endured the sort of pressure he will this year from the fans.

It will be worth watching just to see how it all goes down.

[chazoe60]

All this really means is that if Orton is healthy he'll start week 1. Let's see how patient Fox us with bad play from the QB position because unless Orton is markedly better in the big three QB situations (3rd down, RZ, clutch 4th Qtr spots) this controversy will continue.

Well I think the odds of Denver drafting a QB with it's first pick in he next draft is 80% or better at this point. What do you guys think?

[topscribe]

All this really means is that if Orton is healthy he'll start week 1. Let's see how patient Fox us with bad play from the QB position because unless Orton is markedly better in the big three QB situations (3rd down, RZ, clutch 4th Qtr spots) this controversy will continue.

Well I think the odds of Denver drafting a QB with it's first pick in he next draft is 80% or better at this point. What do you guys think?

It's possible, of course. I still would like to see how they do with a newly
healthy line, a better running game, an honest-to-goodness pass-catching TEs.
That ought to make Kyle, or any one of them, markedly better in those
situations, shouldn't it?

-----

[Denver Native (Carol)]

All this really means is that if Orton is healthy he'll start week 1. Let's see how patient Fox us with bad play from the QB position because unless Orton is markedly better in the big three QB situations (3rd down, RZ, clutch 4th Qtr spots) this controversy will continue.

Well I think the odds of Denver drafting a QB with it's first pick in he next draft is 80% or better at this point. What do you guys think?

Totally agree - that is all it means - Orton will be the starter. If he does well, he will remain the starter, if not, he will be replaced.

[TXBRONC]

All this really means is that if Orton is healthy he'll start week 1. Let's see how patient Fox us with bad play from the QB position because unless Orton is markedly better in the big three QB situations (3rd down, RZ, clutch 4th Qtr spots) this controversy will continue.

Well I think the odds of Denver drafting a QB with it's first pick in he next draft is 80% or better at this point. What do you guys think?

I think it's a little to early to tell what I chance are of drafting another quarterback. However, Elway has said that they plan to look at quarterback prospects next season. So we shall see how it pans out.

[bcbronc]

A bit early imo to be naming anyone starter in any position, outside of Champ and Clady.

[Ravage!!!]

It really just shows how bad that extension screwed the Broncos. McDaniels gave Orton $9 MILLION for NO REASON, he would have taken less, he essentially made Orton untradable unless a team is desperate. I still think Miami or Washington might make a run for him though as they are both desperate at the QB position.

Still, with every 3rd down not converted, with every botched comeback, the pressure will mount.

And worst of all, we may have NO clue what to do in 2012 when it's draft time. That's what really screws over the franchise. Orton is a goner, he will be out of here, Quinn also, it's Tebow's fault if he apparently looks this bad in practice though.

I don't think you are giving the coaches enough credit. This wouldn't be the first rookie they've watched play. They can tell if he is ready for the NFL and for games. If he's not, he's not going to play. If he's not ready, they don't want to tell the team "this is the guy we are going with, even though all of you know he's not good." Thats how you lose a locker room.

Honestly, I don't see the extension of Orton being the problem. I see the drafting of Tebow to be the problem. That, matched up with trading away the QB we had, is just a double ****-up that put this franchise back MANY years.

My point is. If Orton is the starter for the full season, then its because the coaches/GM KNOW very well what we have in Tebow.

[jhildebrand]

The ground balls, chicken shit dump offs to RB's, and missing WIDE OPEN WR'S/TE's will begin early and I hope EFX are paying attention when it happens.

[Nomad]

All this really means is that if Orton is healthy he'll start week 1. Let's see how patient Fox us with bad play from the QB position because unless Orton is markedly better in the big three QB situations (3rd down, RZ, clutch 4th Qtr spots) this controversy will continue.

Well I think the odds of Denver drafting a QB with it's first pick in he next draft is 80% or better at this point. What do you guys think?

Hopefully this....... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/gameflash/2010/10/24/4034_recap.html ........is on the bulletin board because regardless I don't want to see a repeat and BRONCOS need to end us being the Raiders whipping boy for the last two years!

[Juriga72]

2010-
Shotgun- 85.6 QBR
Pro Formation- 66.8 QBR

2009-
Shotgun- 93.8 QBR
Pro Formation- 70.1 QBR

2008-
Shotgun- 87.8 QBR
Pr Formation- 59.7 QBR


Ummm yeah...... What is it that John Fox likes to run his QB out of again???

Anyone? Beuller......... Beuller?

[Ravage!!!]

A bit early imo to be naming anyone starter in any position, outside of Champ and Clady.

Not really. Its Orton's to lose. No one said that it couldn't be lost. But right now they are making it clear that the opening day QB is Orton. They aren't going to split reps to find out who taht QB is, because they know who that QB is. There isn't enough time right now to have a QB competition with the time-schedule being sped up due to lack of time.

I'm glad its just decided, and we can move forward.

[SOCALORADO.]

I have decided as well. And i am moving forward.
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Matt+Barkley+_ScR75R4fPCm.jpg
http://www.buffalosportsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Andrew-Luck.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

where are our two Tebow homers that predict that Tebow is going to revolutionize the NFL's QB position?

[UrbanBounca]

There is no sense in even watching until Timmy or Quinn are starting. Orton is worthless within the redzone.

[SOCALORADO.]

where are our two Tebow homers that predict that Tebow is going to revolutionize the NFL's QB position?

http://heismanpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Andrew-Luck.jpg

[Mike]

1) It is possible Elway is getting inadvertent or advertent help from Shefter to generate interest from other teams to help the Broncos get value for Orton. This will work even better when Orton lights up the vanilla defenses he will be facing during the first preseason game or 2.

2) Even if that is not the case, this situation will go into preseason regardless of what anyone may claim. I think that the results of the preseason games is ultimately where the decision will be made.

[slim]

Maybe we should wait until they play a few preseason games?

[CoachChaz]

I have decided as well. And i am moving forward.
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Matt+Barkley+_ScR75R4fPCm.jpg
http://www.buffalosportsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Andrew-Luck.jpg

Dont forget Landry Jones. Maybe the best passer out of all of them

[SOCALORADO.]

Maybe we should wait until they play a few preseason games?

NOPE. Why wait?
http://thecoachnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/andrew-luck.jpg?w=290&h=384
http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/6f/6f8bcb2b6c970d4dba245470c76e2dca/usc_can_still_cash_in_on_the_matt_barkley_leap_yea r_while_it_has_the_chance.jpg

[broncobryce]

2010-
Shotgun- 85.6 QBR
Pro Formation- 66.8 QBR

2009-
Shotgun- 93.8 QBR
Pro Formation- 70.1 QBR

2008-
Shotgun- 87.8 QBR
Pr Formation- 59.7 QBR


Ummm yeah...... What is it that John Fox likes to run his QB out of again???

Anyone? Beuller......... Beuller?

Yeah but in practice he's unstoppable!

[Bugs Baloney]

here we go... :protest:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

So - does starting QB = 1st preseason game on August 11th, or 1st regular season game on September 12th. If I had to guess, the plans are to start Orton on Aug. 11th, and then go from there. Is that not what the preseason games are all about - i.e. determine the starters for the 1st regular season game?

[BroncoBowlby 88]

when did Schefter land the job of controlling the depth chart? even if he had an inside scoop there is no way of knowing what EFX is planning.

me, id rather see who ever helps us get the most wins. Tebow will get his chance, but if ortan gives us more W's, go with him. i happen to remeber a young QB who sat behind favre for a few years, and he turned out alright, won a super bowl i believe. guve Tebow the chance to learn and become the great QB he has the potential to be !

[HammeredOut]

2010-
Shotgun- 85.6 QBR
Pro Formation- 66.8 QBR

2009-
Shotgun- 93.8 QBR
Pro Formation- 70.1 QBR

2008-
Shotgun- 87.8 QBR
Pr Formation- 59.7 QBR


Ummm yeah...... What is it that John Fox likes to run his QB out of again???

Anyone? Beuller......... Beuller?

What about Kurt Warners numbers out of the SHotgun. Or Farve out of the SHotgun.

[slim]

NOPE. Why wait?
http://thecoachnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/andrew-luck.jpg?w=290&h=384
http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/6f/6f8bcb2b6c970d4dba245470c76e2dca/usc_can_still_cash_in_on_the_matt_barkley_leap_yea r_while_it_has_the_chance.jpg

Barkley sucks :hi:

[SOCALORADO.]

Barkley sucks :hi:

But he carries a sword!:D

[Juriga72]

What about Kurt Warners numbers out of the SHotgun. Or Farve out of the SHotgun.

Well.... lets see.....


Kurt Warner is not going to run John Fox's system this year, PLUS..as you know he won playoff games, a Super Bowl... been to a TON of Pro Bowls...NFL MVP.... Um... lets see... Married to the ugliest women IN the NFL.

OH and won with "No running game and a terrible defense". In fact he took the worst team EVER to a Super Bowl.

Brett Farve? He text's pictures of his wang to women from "Shotgun formations"...

So even Brett is better in shotgun than Kyle is..

[SOCALORADO.]

Well.... lets see.....


Kurt Warner is not going to run John Fox's system this year, PLUS..as you know he won playoff games, a Super Bowl... been to a TON of Pro Bowls...NFL MVP.... Um... lets see... Married to the ugliest women IN the NFL.

OH and won with "No running game and a terrible defense". In fact he took the worst team EVER to a Super Bowl.

Brett Farve? He text's pictures of his wang to women from "Shotgun formations"...

So even Brett is better in shotgun than Kyle is..

Kurt Warner is a HOF QB. Better than Favre ever was. Totally off topic. Just sayin..

[I Eat Staples]

Totally agree - that is all it means - Orton will be the starter. If he does well, he will remain the starter, if not, he will be replaced.

Exactly how it should be. Orton is by far the best QB on our roster right now. If, during the season, he proves us otherwise he should be benched, but there's no point starting the season with a QB who can't read defenses or throw an accurate pass.

[BroncoStud]

The past 3 years have really been difficult to stomach. So many bad moves, so much bad karma, so much embarrassment thanks to Bowlen, Ellis, and mostly McDaniels. It's really a shame that Denver is stuck in such a rut.

It's really a shame that we have become the Chicago Bears of 4 years ago, some of the fans trying to tell us why Orton should be the starter and excuse his glaring weaknesses grasping for anything they can.

From Cutler, Orton, Hillis, Marshall, Mike Nolan, Moreno, Ayers, and all the way to Tim Tebow... I just want this franchise to rid itself of the absolute TAINT Josh McDaniels left.

We had Jay Cutler, ALL we needed was defense. Instead we are stuck with Kyle F'ing Orton, who is an NFL backup who thinks he's a starter, and a defense that is WORSE than it was before we blew up the offense. Kyle Orton gives me, and many others, NO HOPE of anything promising. He is a backup and almost everyone seems to understand that but the few here in Denver who can't seem to grasp it. If he is by far our best option then that just goes to show how pathetic we have become as a franchise.

It's sickening we have to debate this nonsense. It's sickening we are going to have to watch Kyle Orton job out to the huddle week 1. I want all of them gone, all of them. But I know what Orton offers, and it isn't good enough, I would LOVE to see what Quinn or Tebow offer just to see.

As it is I see us winning just enough games to get out of the Luck Lottery and then next season we are stuck in a real jam. Just piss-poor planning from the start. This franchise has become a joke, the most unprofessional in the NFL aside from perhaps Oakland, who kicked the shit out of us last season and finished strong.

It's a shame that we have fallen this hard this fast.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

During an appearance on ESPN’s SportsCenter this morning, NFL guru Adam Schefter reported the Denver Broncos will not be trading quarterback Kyle Orton. Per multiple reports, Orton has been the most polished and ready-to-go quarterback for Denver during training camp.

There was some belief during the lockout that Tebow would become the team’s starter, but after struggling in camp and a potential trade between Denver and the Miami Dolphins for Orton failed to come to fruition, the team will decide to go with Orton.

Of course, this could all change during game action in the preseason but for now it looks like Tebow will instead be battling for the number two spot on the depth chart.

http://nflspinzone.com/2011/08/03/adam-schefter-kyle-orton-will-be-denver-broncos-starter/

[SOCALORADO.]

The past 3 years have really been difficult to stomach. So many bad moves, so much bad karma, so much embarrassment thanks to Bowlen, Ellis, and mostly McDaniels. It's really a shame that Denver is stuck in such a rut.

It's really a shame that we have become the Chicago Bears of 4 years ago, some of the fans trying to tell us why Orton should be the starter and excuse his glaring weaknesses grasping for anything they can.

From Cutler, Orton, Hillis, Marshall, Mike Nolan, Moreno, Ayers, and all the way to Tim Tebow... I just want this franchise to rid itself of the absolute TAINT Josh McDaniels left.

We had Jay Cutler, ALL we needed was defense. Instead we are stuck with Kyle F'ing Orton, who is an NFL backup who thinks he's a starter, and a defense that is WORSE than it was before we blew up the offense. Kyle Orton gives me, and many others, NO HOPE of anything promising. He is a backup and almost everyone seems to understand that but the few here in Denver who can't seem to grasp it. If he is by far our best option then that just goes to show how pathetic we have become as a franchise.

It's sickening we have to debate this nonsense. It's sickening we are going to have to watch Kyle Orton job out to the huddle week 1. I want all of them gone, all of them. But I know what Orton offers, and it isn't good enough, I would LOVE to see what Quinn or Tebow offer just to see.

As it is I see us winning just enough games to get out of the Luck Lottery and then next season we are stuck in a real jam. Just piss-poor planning from the start. This franchise has become a joke, the most unprofessional in the NFL aside from perhaps Oakland, who kicked the shit out of us last season and finished strong.

It's a shame that we have fallen this hard this fast.
Nailed it.
Like a microcosm of the USA in general the last few years.
All i can do now is simply hope for a top 2 pick again.
Pathetic.

http://jbum.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341bf70753ef0120a5a31f24970b-800wi
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/105/350/107860395_crop_650x440.jpg?1294357611

[Bugs Baloney]

http://www.aerojockey.com/fark/simms.jpg

[Juriga72]

http://www.aerojockey.com/fark/simms.jpg

Sign Him????? "We can fix him... we can make him better than he was.... Stronger... Faster....."

*Cue Six Million Dollar man* theme song

[RebelRocker]

All this really means is that if Orton is healthy he'll start week 1. Let's see how patient Fox us with bad play from the QB position because unless Orton is markedly better in the big three QB situations (3rd down, RZ, clutch 4th Qtr spots) this controversy will continue.

Well I think the odds of Denver drafting a QB with it's first pick in he next draft is 80% or better at this point. What do you guys think?

I agree. I think this is the scenario we're going to see this season.

-Orton starts this year and we try to win as many games as possible.

-We try to sign and trade Orton o we let him walk.

-Tebow gets dealt.

-EFX drafts the best QB available with their 1st rd pick.

I think we need to stop the "suck for Luck" talk, as well. We won't be that bad this year. Guys like Nick Foles, Ryan Lindley and Kirk Cousins are more realistic possibilities for us next year at QB than Luck, Jones, Barkley. Sounds like those three are almost guaranteed top 10 QB's, at this point. We're not going to give up that much to trade up when we still have a lot of holes to fill on this team.

[silkamilkamonico]

Orton should play the first 3 quarters. Tebow should play the 4th quarter if the game is on the line.

Seriously.

[Bugs Baloney]

http://i44.tinypic.com/33mr98m.png

[Clipworthy]

I don't understand how anyone can call this over until the preseason games are played. Real games show who is the better player, training camp shows who has more experience.

[MOtorboat]

So, is Tebow still struggling against guys who won't even play in the NFL this season?

[NightTerror218]

Schefter must be working for the broncos because he seems to know more about the team then EFX

[Clipworthy]

So, is Tebow still struggling against guys who won't even play in the NFL this season?

What a mystery of why Tebow is being "indecisive" on plays, well maybe the options of "do I throw it to this undrafted f/a or that one" that has him a little confused on what to do

[chazoe60]

I agree. I think this is the scenario we're going to see this season.

-Orton starts this year and we try to win as many games as possible.

-We try to sign and trade Orton o we let him walk.

-Tebow gets dealt.

-EFX drafts the best QB available with their 1st rd pick.

I think we need to stop the "suck for Luck" talk, as well. We won't be that bad this year. Guys like Nick Foles, Ryan Lindley and Kirk Cousins are more realistic possibilities for us next year at QB than Luck, Jones, Barkley. Sounds like those three are almost guaranteed top 10 QB's, at this point. We're not going to give up that much to trade up when we still have a lot of holes to fill on this team.

I agree with a lot of what you said but I disagree that we can't be in the Luck race. We drafted second last season there is no reason to believe we can't be drafting near the top of the draft again. We are trying to build a team that runs the ball and plays defense and that usually means close games, the problem for us is that we have a starting QB who has proven he can't win close games at a very good clip at all.

This team, and it really pains me to say it because I love this team second only behind my family, but we will be a 5 win team or so and we will be picking in the top 7. If we sneak a couple more wins in there it will actually be a disaster for us in terms of the QB position draft wise.

This is going to be a really shitty year I feel. Oh well, I havethe inevitable booing of Orton to laugh at. It's going to happen and regardless of what some may say, just because you despise Orton does not mean you are a Tebowite. I personally want Quinn to start right now.

My hatred of Orton has everything to do with my love for the Broncos. The quitting. The mopeyness. The lethargy. The finger tip sacks. The "punting is okay because at least I didn't take a chance and maybe throw a pick" mentality. Is all too ******* much for mento take. I can't wait til this shitty ******* era brought on by an egomaniacal little **** stain who saddled us with a mediocre loser as our QB, is over.

Our fanbase has been so used to mediocrity from the QB position since Elway left that some look at Orton as a good option for us. ******* sad.

[Bugs Baloney]

So, is Tebow still struggling against guys who won't even play in the NFL this season?

:spy:

[NorCalBronco7]

An experienced vet vs an unproven, virtual rookie. Hate to not complicate the Qb controversy, but its as simple as that. A conservative coach like Fox is going to go with the experienced player most of the time.

But preseason hasnt even started yet. If Tebow plays like he did the last 3 games of the season but improves on his accuracy, he very well could get the nod.

[TXBRONC]

An experienced vet vs an unproven, virtual rookie. Hate to not complicate the Qb controversy, but its as simple as that. A conservative coach like Fox is going to go with the experienced player most of the time.

But preseason hasnt even started yet. If Tebow plays like he did the last 3 games of the season but improves on his accuracy, he very well could get the nod.

I'm not going to sweat it either way. I still don't think Orton is long term solution.

[SOCALORADO.]

I agree. I think this is the scenario we're going to see this season.

-Orton starts this year and we try to win as many games as possible.

-We try to sign and trade Orton o we let him walk.

-Tebow gets dealt.

-EFX drafts the best QB available with their 1st rd pick.

I think we need to stop the "suck for Luck" talk, as well. We won't be that bad this year. Guys like Nick Foles, Ryan Lindley and Kirk Cousins are more realistic possibilities for us next year at QB than Luck, Jones, Barkley. Sounds like those three are almost guaranteed top 10 QB's, at this point. We're not going to give up that much to trade up when we still have a lot of holes to fill on this team.

DEN will suck for LUCK, and you will like it.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mMwIZAlfv-4/Ti9_SzvVsDI/AAAAAAAABX4/A8aKgi8aokE/s400/andrew_luck_confirms_he_and_his_righteous_beard_ar e_going_pro_in_.jpg

[slim]

DEN will suck for LUCK, and you will like it.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mMwIZAlfv-4/Ti9_SzvVsDI/AAAAAAAABX4/A8aKgi8aokE/s400/andrew_luck_confirms_he_and_his_righteous_beard_ar e_going_pro_in_.jpg

You realize you are jinxing this thing, right?

:johngruden:

[broncoFan!]

I agree with a lot of what you said but I disagree that we can't be in the Luck race. We drafted second last season there is no reason to believe we can't be drafting near the top of the draft again. We are trying to build a team that runs the ball and plays defense and that usually means close games, the problem for us is that we have a starting QB who has proven he can't win close games at a very good clip at all.

This team, and it really pains me to say it because I love this team second only behind my family, but we will be a 5 win team or so and we will be picking in the top 7. If we sneak a couple more wins in there it will actually be a disaster for us in terms of the QB position draft wise.

This is going to be a really shitty year I feel. Oh well, I havethe inevitable booing of Orton to laugh at. It's going to happen and regardless of what some may say, just because you despise Orton does not mean you are a Tebowite. I personally want Quinn to start right now.

My hatred of Orton has everything to do with my love for the Broncos. The quitting. The mopeyness. The lethargy. The finger tip sacks. The "punting is okay because at least I didn't take a chance and maybe throw a pick" mentality. Is all too ******* much for mento take. I can't wait til this shitty ******* era brought on by an egomaniacal little **** stain who saddled us with a mediocre loser as our QB, is over.

Our fanbase has been so used to mediocrity from the QB position since Elway left that some look at Orton as a good option for us. ******* sad.

I believe in Tebow. He is the answer to the future and I don't care what training camp is telling us. When the game is on the line who do you want to believe in? Neckbeard or Tebow?

Quinn is trash from Cleveland imho. Orton is mediocrity from Chicago. Tebow is a jewel.

I'm not giving up on Tebow and quite frankly I'm disgusted with how fast this fanbase is willing to dump on Tebow when last year they told us all the same bullshit about how Tebow couldn't beat out Orton. Remember how upset we all were? Not only that but Tebow's mechanics and throwing motion this year surely took a hit when he couldn't practice hardly at all because of the freaking lockout. Tebow beats Orton and Quinn in the game. I'm so dissappointed in this fanbase for turning so quickly on Tebow. Disgusting imho.

[DenBronx]

DEN will suck for LUCK, and you will like it.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mMwIZAlfv-4/Ti9_SzvVsDI/AAAAAAAABX4/A8aKgi8aokE/s400/andrew_luck_confirms_he_and_his_righteous_beard_ar e_going_pro_in_.jpg

I wont like it.











































































































































































































I will love it! :D

[NorCalBronco7]

I believe in Tebow. He is the answer to the future and I don't care what training camp is telling us. When the game is on the line who do you want to believe in? Neckbeard or Tebow?

Quinn is trash from Cleveland imho. Orton is mediocrity from Chicago. Tebow is a jewel.

I'm not giving up on Tebow and quite frankly I'm disgusted with how fast this fanbase is willing to dump on Tebow when last year they told us all the same bullshit about how Tebow couldn't beat out Orton. Remember how upset we all were? Not only that but Tebow's mechanics and throwing motion this year surely took a hit when he couldn't practice hardly at all because of the freaking lockout. Tebow beats Orton and Quinn in the game. I'm so dissappointed in this fanbase for turning so quickly on Tebow. Disgusting imho.

Opinions from fanboys means little to nothing.

[broncoFan!]

Opinions from fanboys means little to nothing.

As does yours. ;) We're on a message board so your opinion means nilch.

[Mike]

Opinions from fanboys means little to nothing.

Double-edged sword.

[topscribe]

As does yours. ;) We're on a message board so your opinion means nilch.

Actually, speaking for myself, I value NorCal's opinion highly.

-----

[broncoFan!]

Actually, speaking for myself, I value NorCal's opinion highly.

-----

That's nice. If I cared. :coffee:

[slim]

All opinions are valid (expect for NAMBLAs opinion, on any topic).

[broncoFan!]

I suspect that a lot of other people here do, too . . .

-----

Again if I cared. :coffee:

I'm a Broncos fan first always have been. I was there for Cutler, I was there for Orton and hopefully I'll be there for Tebow. Making me out to be a Tebow fan only is disgusting. Tebow won me over however after that comeback against the Texans.

[topscribe]

All opinions are valid (expect for NAMBLAs opinion, on any topic).

I love to hear Clay's opinion. He just makes me . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/BIGrofl2-1.gif

-----

[slim]

I love to hear Clay's opinion. He just makes me . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/BIGrofl2-1.gif

-----

Clay is dead to me.

[NorCalBronco7]

As does yours. ;) We're on a message board so your opinion means nilch.

Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things, opinions wont change anything the Broncos do.

But you cant expect a rational Broncos debate with a fanboy either.



Actually, speaking for myself, I value NorCal's opinion highly.

-----

Thanks Top. As do I. :salute:

[broncoFan!]

Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things, opinions wont change anything the Broncos do.

But you cant expect a rational Broncos debate with a fanboy either.




Thanks Top. As do I. :salute:

Lol that's a joke. Check out my username buddy. I'm a Broncos fan. I happen to like Tebow though and he won me over after the comeback at halftime against the Texans.

[topscribe]

Again if I cared. :coffee:

I'm a Broncos fan first always have been. I was there for Cutler, I was there for Orton and hopefully I'll be there for Tebow. Making me out to be a Tebow fan only is disgusting. Tebow won me over however after that comeback against the Texans.

He's a gamer, all right. No doubt about that. My concern is that he was one of
the best college players in history in Urban Meyer's system. No such system
exists in the NFL because it wouldn't work. Tebow is going to have to improve
in a lot of areas before he can be considered a good NFL QB.

Not that he won't or can't. It's just that he's going to have to. Meanwhile, Orton
is taking snaps with the first unit for a reason . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Thanks Top. As do I. :salute:

You value your opinion highly, too? Well, you should. :D

-----

[bcbronc]

I probably shouldn't be surprised any longer, but I still am at how enamoured people are with being 8-8.

Damn you McDaniels, we wantee to set the record for most consecutive mediocre seasons, and we had just the QB to do it with too!

[NorCalBronco7]

Lol that's a joke. Check out my username buddy. I'm a Broncos fan. I happen to like Tebow though and he won me over after the comeback at halftime against the Texans.

Alright. :salute:

[NorCalBronco7]

You value your opinion highly, too? Well, you should. :D

-----

I meant you :lol:

[topscribe]

Clay is dead to me.

So this week it's Clay . . .

-----

[broncoFan!]

He's a gamer, all right. No doubt about that. My concern is that he was one of
the best college players in history in Urban Meyer's system. No such system
exists in the NFL because it wouldn't work. Tebow is going to have to improve
in a lot of areas before he can be considered a good NFL QB.

Not that he won't or can't. It's just that he's going to have to. Meanwhile, Orton
is taking snaps with the first unit for a reason . . .

-----

Yah lol Orton ALWAYS looks good in training camp. Wait until it's 3rd down and 2 to go. Or wait until the game is within a TD. Or wait until we are down by 14+ points. Or wait until he throws his first pick six. Or wait until he fumbles the ball when the game is on the line.

Tebow may have mechanical problems but those are nothing that Mike Mccoy can't fix. Our opening game is against the Raiders. Last time Orton played the Raiders at home we were humiliated. Where I work almost EVERYONE but me is a Raiders fan or a Cowboys fan. I'm one of like 2 Broncos fans at my work. That is humiliating. I want Orton gone. We could run a system like Philly runs with Michael Vick if we had to. Seems to work pretty well for a scrambling QB imo.

[topscribe]

Yah lol Orton ALWAYS looks good in training camp. Wait until it's 3rd down and 2 to go. Or wait until the game is within a TD. Or wait until we are down by 14+ points. Or wait until he throws his first pick six. Or wait until he fumbles the ball when the game is on the line.

Tebow may have mechanical problems but those are nothing that Mike Mccoy can't fix. Our opening game is against the Raiders. Last time Orton played the Raiders at home we were humiliated. Where I work almost EVERYONE but me is a Raiders fan or a Cowboys fan. I'm one of like 2 Broncos fans at my work. That is humiliating. I want Orton gone. We could run a system like Philly runs with Michael Vick if we had to. Seems to work pretty well for a scrambling QB imo.

I see. So your thing is you want to look good at work . . .

-----

[broncoFan!]

I see. So your thing is you want to look good at work . . .

-----

Um..... lol no. I want the Broncos to WIN. I don't want to be constantly embarassed by Raiders fans. I guess you don't mind that though if you want Orton to start.

[NorCalBronco7]

Yah lol Orton ALWAYS looks good in training camp. Wait until it's 3rd down and 2 to go. Or wait until the game is within a TD. Or wait until we are down by 14+ points. Or wait until he throws his first pick six. Or wait until he fumbles the ball when the game is on the line.

Tebow may have mechanical problems but those are nothing that Mike Mccoy can't fix. Our opening game is against the Raiders. Last time Orton played the Raiders at home we were humiliated. Where I work almost EVERYONE but me is a Raiders fan or a Cowboys fan. I'm one of like 2 Broncos fans at my work. That is humiliating. I want Orton gone. We could run a system like Philly runs with Michael Vick if we had to. Seems to work pretty well for a scrambling QB imo.

Ried runs a west coach system. I dont think anyone believes thats Tebow would do well in that.

[broncoFan!]

Ried runs a west coach system. I dont think anyone believes thats Tebow would do well in that.

If he got his pass completion above say..... 60% he could.

[NightTerror218]

If he got his pass completion above say..... 60% he could.

That means they would have let him loose and let him throw, unlike Raider game. O and how about letting him get 1st team reps too. That would help also.

[broncoFan!]

That means they would have let him loose and let him throw, unlike Raider game. O and how about letting him get 1st team reps too. That would help also.

I would not mind that lol. But Orton always wows in training camps until real pressure is applied on him. Then he folds. For reference see.... KC game, Arizona game, Raiders game, 49ers game, Jets game, SD game, Colts game, Ravens game, Jags game etc. etc....

[tomjonesrocks]

Always good news lately...
:elefant:

[NorCalBronco7]

If he got his pass completion above say..... 60% he could.

Uh, no. West coast Qbs need quick releases and be able to consistently throw accuracte passes to recievers in stride. Hes just not a fit.

[broncoFan!]

Uh, no. West coast Qbs need quick releases and be able to consistently throw accuracte passes to recievers in stride. Hes just not a fit.

Ok fair point. We could run a system like the Steelers run with Big Ben. Big Ben kind of reminds me of Tebow w/out being of good character though.

[Lonestar]

Wait until the boos rain down. We'll be seeing Quinn or Tebow before we know it.

As you have made abundantly clear post after post. You have that in cut and paste. If nit save yourself the time and do so.

As Top said yesterday most fans want to win. If we win or Orton shows well I doubt many fans will rain down boos.

Most fans will give John and John the benefit of doubt unless he stinks it up.

Which is doubtful if the running game and defense become solid.

If we are as pathetic in those two areas as last year. Then he might struggle.

But the automatic failure you seem to think he is, not likely.

[I Eat Staples]

I believe in Tebow. He is the answer to the future and I don't care what training camp is telling us. When the game is on the line who do you want to believe in? Neckbeard or Tebow?

Quinn is trash from Cleveland imho. Orton is mediocrity from Chicago. Tebow is a jewel.

I'm not giving up on Tebow and quite frankly I'm disgusted with how fast this fanbase is willing to dump on Tebow when last year they told us all the same bullshit about how Tebow couldn't beat out Orton. Remember how upset we all were? Not only that but Tebow's mechanics and throwing motion this year surely took a hit when he couldn't practice hardly at all because of the freaking lockout. Tebow beats Orton and Quinn in the game. I'm so dissappointed in this fanbase for turning so quickly on Tebow. Disgusting imho.

Drafting Tebow in the first round just makes McDaniels look like a troll. I'm not giving up on Tebow, I simply never had any hope to begin with. If he wasn't a Bronco I'd be laughing at everyone who thinks he can play in the NFL. But it makes me sad to see how many Bronco fans actually believe this kid be a starting QB in this league.

[broncoFan!]

Drafting Tebow in the first round just makes McDaniels look like a troll. I'm not giving up on Tebow, I simply never had any hope to begin with. If he wasn't a Bronco I'd be laughing at everyone who thinks he can play in the NFL. But it makes me sad to see how many Bronco fans actually believe this kid be a starting QB in this league.

Yah Mcd was an idiot but that doesn't mean that Tebow can't play in the NFL. Many other teams wanted him besides the Broncos. The Patriots were on his radar, as were the Jaguars (until they decided to go with David Garrard). The Buffalo Bills also wanted him and there were a host of other teams and coaches in the NFL that believe in him.

Mike Shanahan said that he thought he would be a winner in the NFL. Tony Dungy also believes that to be true. Do you really think there worthy to be laughed at.

[HammeredOut]

If Tebow doesnt start this season for the Broncos. No GM in the league would give Tebow a starting QB job if it doesnt happen in Denver. He looks like a wasted pick.

[NorCalBronco7]

Ok fair point. We could run a system like the Steelers run with Big Ben. Big Ben kind of reminds me of Tebow w/out being of good character though.

Whats wrong with Tebow playing in the spread? No other system gives him a better chance to succedd imo and many others.

[broncoFan!]

Whats wrong with Tebow playing in the spread? No other system gives him a better chance to succedd imo and many others.

Mcdaniels ran the spread offense or one very close to it in Denver, and that sucked.

[NightTerror218]

If Tebow doesnt start this season for the Broncos. No GM in the league would give Tebow a starting QB job if it doesnt happen in Denver. He looks like a wasted pick.


Well not having a vet QB mentor or having the normal offseason to work with coaches and work it out sets him back.

[NorCalBronco7]

Mcdaniels ran the spread offense or one very close to it in Denver, and that sucked.

Mcdumb****s passing attack was pretty good. It was inability to run that made his system suck. With Fox as head coach, you have to believe the running game is going to get better.

[bcbronc]

Whats wrong with Tebow playing in the spread? No other system gives him a better chance to succedd imo and many others.

Imo the best offence for Tebow would be based off what ATL did with Vick in his early years. Strong multi-headed running attack,. Using play-action and misdirection etc to take aedvantage of Tebow's/Vick's legs, and a deep-ball passing attack to keep the safeties out of the box.

But if he can't hit his receivers dooing the route tree in watm-ups, he's not going to make it as more than a gimmick/x-factor type player.

[topscribe]

Um..... lol no. I want the Broncos to WIN. I don't want to be constantly embarassed by Raiders fans. I guess you don't mind that though if you want Orton to start.

I have explained time and time and time and time again: I want the best player
to start. I don't care what his last name is.

Maybe I should make a post to this effect with every new thread . . .

-----

[Northman]

If Tebow doesnt start this season for the Broncos. No GM in the league would give Tebow a starting QB job if it doesnt happen in Denver. He looks like a wasted pick.

Sadly i think you may be right. It may look like the project is exactly that. I hate having to waste another year with Orton under center but if the coaches really think Tebow is just that bad than they go with whoever they have confidence in.

[I Eat Staples]

Yah Mcd was an idiot but that doesn't mean that Tebow can't play in the NFL. Many other teams wanted him besides the Broncos. The Patriots were on his radar, as were the Jaguars (until they decided to go with David Garrard). The Buffalo Bills also wanted him and there were a host of other teams and coaches in the NFL that believe in him.

Mike Shanahan said that he thought he would be a winner in the NFL. Tony Dungy also believes that to be true. Do you really think there worthy to be laughed at.

The Jaguars weren't seriously interested in Tebow, only their fans were. It would have just been for publicity. The Bills deny being interested in Tebow, but even if they were, the Bills aren't exactly the epitome of good decisions.

Tony Dungy says good things about everyone.

[NorCalBronco7]

Imo the best offence for Tebow would be based off what ATL did with Vick in his early years. Strong multi-headed running attack,. Using play-action and misdirection etc to take aedvantage of Tebow's/Vick's legs, and a deep-ball passing attack to keep the safeties out of the box.

But if he can't hit his receivers dooing the route tree in watm-ups, he's not going to make it as more than a gimmick/x-factor type player.

I believe Vick has played in the west coach his whole career (not 100% sure).

What your wanting out of the offense with Tebow behind center is exactly what Fox will do. Strong, duel RB attack with plenty of playaction and always looking for one on one matchups to throw it deep. I have heard Fox likes to take plenty of shots downfield.

[topscribe]

I believe Vick has played in the west coach his whole career (not 100% sure).

What your wanting out of the offense with Tebow behind center is exactly what Fox will do. Strong, duel RB attack with plenty of playaction and always looking for one on one matchups to throw it deep. I have heard Fox likes to take plenty of shots downfield.

Play action, downfield shots . . . some people think Orton was one of the best at both . . .

-----

[Juriga72]

Uh, no. West coast Qbs need quick releases and be able to consistently throw accuracte passes to recievers in stride. Hes just not a fit.

Wait....
Wasn't THAT rep ( inaccurate to recievers) that Vick had?
03- 54.(%
04- 50%
05- 56.4%
06 55.2%
07 52.6%
08-Wood shop
09-Library helper
10- 46.2%
11- 62.6%

and left handed...and a runner...... and a convict... oh wait

[TXBRONC]

Sadly i think you may be right. It may look like the project is exactly that. I hate having to waste an year with Orton under center but if the coaches really think Tebow is just that bad than they go with whoever they have confidence in.

I've heard that Tebow never looks that good in practice, not that he doesn't work hard but that he just doesn't look polished. Orton always looks good in practice then in games that's not always the case.

Btw has anyone seen our resident Tebowites i.e. Bullgator and what's his name?

[Juriga72]

Play action, downfield shots . . . some people think Orton was one of the best at both . . .

-----

Um no..... You saw his own stats that said "I NEED to be in Shotgun"

So just like the "He was in 3rd and LONG all year" crowd.. you are yet again wrong

[NorCalBronco7]

I have explained time and time and time and time again: I want the best player
to start. I don't care what his last name is.

Maybe I should make a post to this effect with every new thread . . .

-----

So you want the Broncos to win even if Tebow doesnt get experience? Pffff....what a fan you are.





:laugh:


Its sad your contemplating disclaimers when its obvious you just want the Broncos to win and dont care how they do it.

[Northman]

I've heard that Tebow never looks that good in practice, not that he doesn't work hard but that he just doesn't look polished. Orton always looks good in practice then in games that's not always the case.

Btw has anyone seen our resident Tebowites i.e. Bullgator and what's his name?

Nope, im sure he is just loving it.

[Nomad]

DEN will suck for LUCK, and you will like it.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mMwIZAlfv-4/Ti9_SzvVsDI/AAAAAAAABX4/A8aKgi8aokE/s400/andrew_luck_confirms_he_and_his_righteous_beard_ar e_going_pro_in_.jpg

The Amish Look.....since it doesn't look like he can grow a mustache!


You realize you are jinxing this thing, right?

:johngruden:

SOCAL was right about Tebow!

[NorCalBronco7]

Play action, downfield shots . . . some people think Orton was one of the best at both . . .

-----

Orton is a good fit for Foxs system imo.


Wait....
Wasn't THAT rep ( inaccurate to recievers) that Vick had?
03- 54.(%
04- 50%
05- 56.4%
06 55.2%
07 52.6%
08-Wood shop
09-Library helper
10- 46.2%
11- 62.6%

and left handed...and a runner...... and a convict... oh wait

LOL.


The biggest issue Tebow has in playing in a west coast offense is his slow throwing motion. Vick is a better runner and has an extremely quick throw. Its not even a throw, its a flick.

[Canmore]

I've heard that Tebow never looks that good in practice, not that he doesn't work hard but that he just doesn't look polished. Orton always looks good in practice then in games that's not always the case.

Btw has anyone seen our resident Tebowites i.e. Bullgator and what's his name?

Buckin Gator. I think.

[topscribe]

The biggest issue Tebow has in playing in a west coast offense is his slow throwing motion. Vick is a better runner and has an extremely quick throw. Its not even a throw, its a flick.

Vick could throw the ball into the third deck . . .



. . . and often did . . .



-----

[Northman]

Vick is innaccurate most of the time. But last year he made some strides before the Bears showed the way to figure him out.

[Stargazer]

So Orton will be the starter...

Guess I will get heavily into fantasy football this year and win some $$$.

[turftoad]

Vick is innaccurate most of the time. But last year he made some strides before the Bears showed the way to figure him out.

Agreed!! He started out passing very well and stayed in the pocket for the most part. Then...... toward the end of the season he looked like the Vick of old, looking to run if the primary WR was covered.

[NorCalBronco7]

Vick could throw the ball into the third deck . . .



. . . and often did . . .



-----

Ive seen Vick do it live. Hes the greatest athlete Ive ever seen other than Labron.

But his running ability kept them in games and somewhat overshadowed his inability to throw accuratly in the west coast.

Tebow has one trait for the west coast offense, mobilty. Accuracy and a quick release he doesnt have.

[Juriga72]

Vick is inaccurate most of the time. But last year he made some strides before the Bears showed the way to figure him out.

I watched than game... they had Peppers shadow Vick all game from the right side. Dude ran him down on a play... NEVER thought I would see him get caught from behind by a D-lineman..

[Nomad]

We saw Vick shread the BRONCOS one Halloween afternoon with his arm and legs!!

[Northman]

We saw Vick shread the BRONCOS one Halloween afternoon with his arm and legs!!

True, but who didnt the last few years. We made JaMarshmellow look like Elway also. :lol:

[Juriga72]

Who did he fake out of his jock .... was that Lynch? Someone was running up to tackle him and just *Poof*... grabbed air as Vick ran for like 40-50 yards...

[BroncoStud]

He's a gamer, all right. No doubt about that. My concern is that he was one of
the best college players in history in Urban Meyer's system. No such system
exists in the NFL because it wouldn't work. Tebow is going to have to improve
in a lot of areas before he can be considered a good NFL QB.

Not that he won't or can't. It's just that he's going to have to. Meanwhile, Orton
is taking snaps with the first unit for a reason . . .

-----

I don't see Joe Tiller's spread offense in the NFL either, and that's all that Orton has had success running, and limited success at that. As it has been pointed out numerous times, Orton has been mediocre AT BEST, in a traditional dropback system. His success, like Tebow's, has come from Shotgun. I don't see how you can possibly use college or NFL systems against either QB, as they both have only found success, thus far, out of the spread. Brady Quinn is the only QB on this roster to play out of a more traditional NFL offense under Weis at Notre Dame with much success.

[Nomad]

True, but who didnt the last few years. We made JaMarshmellow look like Elway also. :lol:

You've got a point! BRONCOS are so consistent on making individuals look all-pro!:tsk:

[topscribe]

I don't see Joe Tiller's spread offense in the NFL either, and that's all that Orton has had success running, and limited success at that. As it has been pointed out numerous times, Orton has been mediocre AT BEST, in a traditional dropback system. His success, like Tebow's, has come from Shotgun. I don't see how you can possibly use college or NFL systems against either QB, as they both have only found success, thus far, out of the spread. Brady Quinn is the only QB on this roster to play out of a more traditional NFL offense under Weis at Notre Dame with much success.

:rolleyes:

-----

[Lonestar]

Mcdumb****s passing attack was pretty good. It was inability to run that made his system suck. With Fox as head coach, you have to believe the running game is going to get better.

If for no other reason having a healhy OL and running backs will help that a great deal.

[Juriga72]

I don't see Joe Tiller's spread offense in the NFL either, and that's all that Orton has had success running, and limited success at that. As it has been pointed out numerous times, Orton has been mediocre AT BEST, in a traditional dropback system. His success, like Tebow's, has come from Shotgun. I don't see how you can possibly use college or NFL systems against either QB, as they both have only found success, thus far, out of the spread. Brady Quinn is the only QB on this roster to play out of a more traditional NFL offense under Weis at Notre Dame with much success.

Just because Kyle Orton has a 20-30 point drop in his QB ratings going from Shotgun to "Pro Formation"...means nothing....

Like his 40 point drop in QBR from 1st and 2nd down to his 3RD down means little if anything...

[BroncoStud]

As you have made abundantly clear post after post. You have that in cut and paste. If nit save yourself the time and do so.

As Top said yesterday most fans want to win. If we win or Orton shows well I doubt many fans will rain down boos.

Most fans will give John and John the benefit of doubt unless he stinks it up.

Which is doubtful if the running game and defense become solid.

If we are as pathetic in those two areas as last year. Then he might struggle.

But the automatic failure you seem to think he is, not likely.

Not sure what you're trying to say but trust me, and it will happen in week 1 when the Raiders pound on us, Orton will be booed. It won't stop. Unless Denver just lights it up on offense Orton will be booed.

A running game has never made a difference for Orton anyway and he's had good defenses. I am making the presumption our offense will look more like Carolinas than that of McDaniels, which means Orton will be asked to make NFL drops, not throw out of the shotgun, and history tells us he struggles at this.

The boos will rain, and they will eventually pour, and hopefully Orton plays himself out of the gig and we can evalaute the backups. I'm not like a select few of you on here, I won't support a QB who is holding our team hostage so he can get a taste of free agency and get paid. I never liked Orton and it will be a great day when he is off this roster. :salute:

[SOCALORADO.]

Not sure what you're trying to say but trust me, and it will happen in week 1 when the Raiders pound on us, Orton will be booed. It won't stop. Unless Denver just lights it up on offense Orton will be booed.

A running game has never made a difference for Orton anyway and he's had good defenses. I am making the presumption our offense will look more like Carolinas than that of McDaniels, which means Orton will be asked to make NFL drops, not throw out of the shotgun, and history tells us he struggles at this.

The boos will rain, and they will eventually pour, and hopefully Orton plays himself out of the gig and we can evalaute the backups. I'm not like a select few of you on here, I won't support a QB who is holding our team hostage so he can get a taste of free agency and get paid. I never liked Orton and it will be a great day when he is off this roster. :salute:
http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/rcs_sidelines/Andrew%20Luck.jpg

[BroncoStud]

Just because Kyle Orton has a 20-30 point drop in his QB ratings going from Shotgun to "Pro Formation"...means nothing....

Like his 40 point drop in QBR from 1st and 2nd down to his 3RD down means little if anything...

TOP and others want to throw Tebow's collegiate system in his face yet fail to mention that Orton played in the spread too, and in Chicago he struggled in a traditional pro-style offense when he had good running games and great defenses to bail him out.

He's the "winner" who won with a 59 rating. He's the "winner" who got benched while winning a game :laugh:. He's the "winner" that got beat out in camp by Rex Grossman and watched old Rexy take his team to the Super Bowl.

He's the "winner" that's been losing here in Denver for 2 years while Jay Cutler also took his team to the NFC Championship.

And you're right, he has been mediocre in a dropback offense.

[RebelRocker]

I agree with a lot of what you said but I disagree that we can't be in the Luck race. We drafted second last season there is no reason to believe we can't be drafting near the top of the draft again. We are trying to build a team that runs the ball and plays defense and that usually means close games, the problem for us is that we have a starting QB who has proven he can't win close games at a very good clip at all.

This team, and it really pains me to say it because I love this team second only behind my family, but we will be a 5 win team or so and we will be picking in the top 7. If we sneak a couple more wins in there it will actually be a disaster for us in terms of the QB position draft wise.

This is going to be a really shitty year I feel. Oh well, I havethe inevitable booing of Orton to laugh at. It's going to happen and regardless of what some may say, just because you despise Orton does not mean you are a Tebowite. I personally want Quinn to start right now.

My hatred of Orton has everything to do with my love for the Broncos. The quitting. The mopeyness. The lethargy. The finger tip sacks. The "punting is okay because at least I didn't take a chance and maybe throw a pick" mentality. Is all too ******* much for mento take. I can't wait til this shitty ******* era brought on by an egomaniacal little **** stain who saddled us with a mediocre loser as our QB, is over.

Our fanbase has been so used to mediocrity from the QB position since Elway left that some look at Orton as a good option for us. ******* sad.



Yeah, I know what you're saying. I just think that's the scenario EFX are hoping for, at this point. They want to win now, but they also realize that they need THEIR QBOTF. They want "their guy". That's why I think Tebow was doomed here from the minute McD was fired. It's a known fact that Tebow was McD's ultimate project QB.

If we're picking in the teens or 20's next year, then I think we'll get one of the second tier QB's like I mentioned earlier.

I agree with you in this aspect, Chaz. If we're picking in the top 10, EFX WILL get Luck or Barkley. They will try as hard as they can to get Luck, but if the price tag is too high to trade up that high, they'll get Barkley.

I see it as a win/win scenario. If we shock the world and become a playoff team this year, that's awesome.

If we suck like last year, Luck or Barkley are ours.

Either way, I'd be shocked if we don't take a QB in one of the first two rounds next year.

[Northman]

Mcdumb****s passing attack was pretty good. It was inability to run that made his system suck. With Fox as head coach, you have to believe the running game is going to get better.

While his pass attack was ranked 7th in the league it was mainly smoke and mirrors and failed where it was needed the most. Scoring.

Scoring offense was ranked 19th. Not good for a supposed offensive guru.

[Northman]

TOP and others want to throw Tebow's collegiate system in his face yet fail to mention that Orton played in the spread too, and in Chicago he struggled in a traditional pro-style offense when he had good running games and great defenses to bail him out.

He's the "winner" who won with a 59 rating. He's the "winner" who got benched while winning a game :laugh:. He's the "winner" that got beat out in camp by Rex Grossman and watched old Rexy take his team to the Super Bowl.

He's the "winner" that's been losing here in Denver for 2 years while Jay Cutler also took his team to the Super Bowl.

And you're right, he has been mediocre in a dropback offense.

Well, Jay hasnt taken them to the SB yet. But i get what your getting at. lol

[BroncoStud]

While his pass attack was ranked 7th in the league it was mainly smoke and mirrors and failed where it was needed the most. Scoring.

Scoring offense was ranked 19th. Not good for a supposed offensive guru.

I couldn't stand McDaniels offense. I didn't even really like it in New England with Tom Brady (though a million times better than with Orton) because it had the RBs trying to make plays 5 yards in the backfield.

[BroncoStud]

Well, Jay hasnt taken them to the SB yet. But i get what your getting at. lol

Haha, true, fixed. :salute:

[Juriga72]

While his pass attack was ranked 7th in the league it was mainly smoke and mirrors and failed where it was needed the most. Scoring.

Scoring offense was ranked 19th. Not good for a supposed offensive guru.

But they did punt the 7th most times!!!!

[NorCalBronco7]

While his pass attack was ranked 7th in the league it was mainly smoke and mirrors and failed where it was needed the most. Scoring.

Scoring offense was ranked 19th. Not good for a supposed offensive guru.

The lack of running game attributed more to the scores woes than anything else. The redzone is difficult to throw in, and without reliable redzone targets and no threat of the running game, its damn near impossible.

And your right, Mc****tool isnt an offensive guru like many thought.

[SOCALORADO.]

We need this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzudT5dMgq0
Or this guy. (Note the terrible o-line play and yet he still has great pocket awareness.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTmKA-AiFUc

Watch the entire vid(s).

[BORDERLINE]

this is just what denver needed. Orton as the starter. SMH Whatever the FO don't know nothing. I'm bracing for another low win season and there's no sign of improvement. SAD DAY

[Northman]

The lack of running game attributed more to the scores woes than anything else. The redzone is difficult to throw in, and without reliable redzone targets and no threat of the running game, its damn near impossible.

And your right, Mc****tool isnt an offensive guru like many thought.

You can only rely on the running game aspect for so long mate. Indy had a massive loss of RB's and WR's last year yet finished 4th in scoring offense. While i am a bigger fan of balanced attacks especially in the redzone you simply cant use the running game as a crutch. My guess is it had more to do with the type of playcalling and the QB.

[topscribe]

Well, Jay hasnt taken them to the SB yet. But i get what your getting at. lol

If you really believe what he is saying, then I don't think you do . . .

-----

[Juriga72]

I have to agree with North.....

Mcdouchie's play calling and Orton's inability to throw in tight spaces.... THATS what caused us to lose

[topscribe]

You can only rely on the running game aspect for so long mate. Indy had a massive loss of RB's and WR's last year yet finished 4th in scoring offense. While i am a bigger fan of balanced attacks especially in the redzone you simply cant use the running game as a crutch. My guess is it had more to do with the type of playcalling and the QB.

Absolutely true: You can rely on the running game for only so long. That is, once
you can start relying on the running game at all. Maybe Denver will finally get to
that point this year?

-----

[Northman]

If you really believe what he is saying, then I don't think you do . . .

-----

If your denying that Jay didnt lead them to the playoffs than you clearly dont understand football.

[Northman]

Absolutely true: You can rely on the running game for only so long. That is, once
you can start relying on the running game at all. Maybe Denver will finally get to
that point this year?

-----


Well, we do know once we do have a good running game is when Orton melts like he did against KC so whether we have a running game or not doesnt seem to improve Kyle's play so it really doesnt matter for us. :lol:

[topscribe]

If your denying that Jay didnt lead them to the playoffs than you clearly dont understand football.

:tsk:

-----

[NorCalBronco7]

You can only rely on the running game aspect for so long mate. Indy had a massive loss of RB's and WR's last year yet finished 4th in scoring offense. While i am a bigger fan of balanced attacks especially in the redzone you simply cant use the running game as a crutch. My guess is it had more to do with the type of playcalling and the QB.

The Broncos being incable of running in the redzone isnt a crutch at all. I guess we see the Broncos redzone struggles totally different. Orton is responsible for his share of struggles in the redzone too, but I believe the Broncos not having any threat of running in the RZ is much more devasting.

And the Colts have Peyton and Wayne who were healthy the entire year. Tamme stepped up as a good redzone target as well. Not a good example. Sure, their running game struggled, but they have Peyton and numerous RZ targets.

[topscribe]

Well, we do know once we do have a good running game is when Orton melts like he did against KC so whether we have a running game or not doesnt seem to improve Kyle's play so it really doesnt matter for us. :lol:

Is that your answer? I talk about the running game, and you respond about Orton?

-----

[NorCalBronco7]

I have to agree with North.....

Mcdouchie's play calling and Orton's inability to throw in tight spaces.... THATS what caused us to lose

Where does the Broncos dead last defense rank in all this?



:lol:

[Juriga72]

:tsk:

-----

2010-
Jay Cutler
4- 4th quarter comeback wins

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=CutlJa00

How many wins did "Spanky the pig" win this year???

oh yeah.....3

[Northman]

The Broncos being incable of running in the redzone isnt a crutch at all. I guess we see the Broncos redzone struggles totally different. Orton is responsible for his share of struggles in the redzone too, but I believe the Broncos not having any threat of running in the RZ is much more devasting.

And the Colts have Peyton and Wayne who were healthy the entire year. Tamme stepped up as a good redzone target as well. Not a good example. Sure, their running game struggled, but they have Peyton and numerous RZ targets.

Which goes back to my point about a good QB. Orton is average, not great so yes he needs a LOT more help in that regard.

[Northman]

Is that your answer? I talk about the running game, and you respond about Orton?

-----

They both coincide with one another. Werent you using the running game as an excuse to Orton not winning?

[Juriga72]

Where does the Broncos dead last defense rank in all this?



:lol:

Nowhere....

See.... Offense SCORE points, and of course.... they MAKE 3rd downs.

IF you say..... Punt the 7th MOST times ( That meas 25 OTHER teams punted less than you did)... Your defense is out there alot.

NOW... IF you do not score, your defense has to score for you.

[BroncoStud]

Where does the Broncos dead last defense rank in all this?



:lol:

Since when is the Broncos defense on the field at the same time the Broncos offense is? That's news to me...

Jay never had a problem converting 3rd downs with a bad defense... It's only an excuse the Orton-fanboys use.

[BroncoStud]

2010-
Jay Cutler
4- 4th quarter comeback wins

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=CutlJa00

How many wins did "Spanky the pig" win this year???

oh yeah.....3

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[topscribe]

They both coincide with one another. Werent you using the running game as an excuse to Orton not winning?

Nope.

But then, you can add this to your long list of fabrications. I won't stop you . . .

-----

[Northman]

Nope.

But then, you can add this to your long list of fabrications. I won't stop you . . .

-----

If that wasnt your goal than im not sure why you even brought it up to begin with. You clearly werent following my conversation if that wasnt your implication. Try harder.

[NorCalBronco7]

Which goes back to my point about a good QB. Orton is average, not great so yes he needs a LOT more help in that regard.

How about ANY help. But as far as the redzone, he had none. Please dont get defensive because Im not trying to make excuses for anyone (not saying you are). I fail to see how Orton is more responisble for the redzone struggles than the running game, but lets agree to disagree.

[topscribe]

If that wasnt your goal than im not sure why you even brought it up to begin with. You clearly werent following my conversation if that wasnt your implication. Try harder.

You mentioned the running game. I responded about the running game.

The difference is, you do not dictate my thoughts. So don't try.

-----

[Northman]

How about ANY help. But as far as the redzone, he had none. Please dont get defensive because Im not trying to make excuses for anyone (not saying you are). I fail to see how Orton is more responisble for the redzone struggles than the running game, but lets agree to disagree.

Im not defensive so dont worry about that. But the buck does stop with the Qb on the field when it comes to scoring in the redzone. He's the general who leads the team. Bottom line, if a great QB like Manning can make it work than the idea that you NEED a running game is mute. While Orton isnt the ONLY one to be a problem there he is a big part of it. And as others have pointed out his 3rd down conversion rate is a massive issue. No matter how good your defense is if you cant keep the chains moving any defense will tire out, even the best.

[Northman]

You mentioned the running game. I responded about the running game.

The difference is, you do not dictate my thoughts. So don't try.

-----

Dude, your so lost. :lol:

[NorCalBronco7]

Nowhere....

See.... Offense SCORE points, and of course.... they MAKE 3rd downs.

IF you say..... Punt the 7th MOST times ( That meas 25 OTHER teams punted less than you did)... Your defense is out there alot.

NOW... IF you do not score, your defense has to score for you.

Whats worse than a smart ass, is an ass who isnt smart.

You said, Mcdouchie's play calling and Orton's inability to throw in tight spaces.... THATS what caused us to lose.

That comment appears to be talking about the entire team. Im just following along the lines of what YOU said.




Since when is the Broncos defense on the field at the same time the Broncos offense is? That's news to me...

You talkin about practice?

[topscribe]

Dude, your so lost. :lol:

It's spelled "you're."

(Thus ends my final post toward you.)

-----

[Northman]

It's spelled "you're."

(Thus ends my final post toward you.)

-----


Oh noes!!!! Spelling Nazi!!!!!

[BroncoStud]

Whats worse than a smart ass, is an ass who isnt smart.

You said, Mcdouchie's play calling and Orton's inability to throw in tight spaces.... THATS what caused us to lose.

That comment appears to be talking about the entire team. Im just following along the lines of what YOU said.





You talkin about practice?

No, just about how you can justify Orton's pathetic conversion offense by blaming the defense.

[topscribe]

No, just about how you can justify Orton's pathetic conversion offense by blaming the defense.

I admire you. You surely can twist someone's words around . . . :nod:

-----

[Juriga72]

Is that your answer? I talk about the running game, and you respond about Orton?

-----

Top-crapper.....

Go back and look at "Kyle The Greatest QB" Orton game logs....

Guess what you'll find.....

in 7 of his 19 losses we ran for MORE than 100 yards. BUT yet in 8 of his 11 wins we held the other team to less than 14 points

SO now whats his "Next Excuse"??

"HE didnt get 450 yards rushing!!!!!AND they didnt hold them to less than 14 points"

[Juriga72]

Oh noes!!!! Spelling Nazi!!!!!

You're on his "Iggy" list....LOL

[Northman]

Top-crapper.....

Go back and look at "Kyle The Greatest QB" Orton game logs....

Guess what you'll find.....

in 7 of his 19 losses we ran for MORE than 100 yards. BUT yet in 8 of his 11 wins we held the other team to less than 14 points

SO now whats his "Next Excuse"??

"HE didnt get 450 yards rushing!!!!!AND they didnt hold them to less than 14 points"


Like i said before some people cant accept the true cold facts. :lol:

Its really sad to see what has happened to a couple of posters on here. I hope its not a health problem and just good ol fashioned brain farts.

[Northman]

You're on his "Iggy" list....LOL

Bout ******* time.

[Juriga72]

Whats worse than a smart ass, is an ass who isnt smart.

You said, Mcdouchie's play calling and Orton's inability to throw in tight spaces.... THATS what caused us to lose.

That comment appears to be talking about the entire team. Im just following along the lines of what YOU said.





You talkin about practice?


Uh... Going O-FER 3 in the redzone.... Get it? THATS what causes you to lose.


going 3-3 kicking field goals gives you 9 points...
See..... 3 + 3 +3 ( 3 field goals) gives you points


NOT getting that 4th down play gives you 0 ( ZERO ) points


How hard is it to understand 9 points > ZERO points?

get back to me when you pass 1st grade Tommy

[NorCalBronco7]

Im not defensive so dont worry about that. But the buck does stop with the Qb on the field when it comes to scoring in the redzone. He's the general who leads the team. Bottom line, if a great QB like Manning can make it work than the idea that you NEED a running game is mute. While Orton isnt the ONLY one to be a problem there he is a big part of it. And as others have pointed out his 3rd down conversion rate is a massive issue. No matter how good your defense is if you cant keep the chains moving any defense will tire out, even the best.

Blaming the Qb for everything that goes right and wrong is silly to me. They dont deserve that. Its doesnt have to be so polarizing.

To me, its very obvious the defense was by far the worst part of the team and contributed to the Broncos record more than anything else.

Manning imo is the best player in the NFL. Setting the bar at Manning isnt exactly fair, dont you agree? I realize your logic is Manning was successful in the redzone without a running game, but he had good/great targets on an extremely elborate passing team. I think your example is more likely the exception to the rule.

[Northman]

Blaming the Qb for everything that goes right and wrong is silly to me. They dont deserve that. Its doesnt have to be so polarizing.

Careful. If you read my last post you would see i didnt pin it ALL on the QB. I just said it starts with him, especially when it comes to scoring in the redzone. The plays run through him.


To me, its very obvious the defense was by far the worst part of the team and contributed to the Broncos record more than anything else.

Defense was bad, no question. It was also bad in 08' but we werent nearly as bad with scoring and 3rd down conversions like we were last year. There's no mistaking that once we switched from Cutler to Orton our 3rd down conversion got worse. It was the same problem we faced with Plummer although he was surrounded by a better team than both Jay and Kyle.


Manning imo is the best player in the NFL. Setting the bar at Manning isnt exactly fair, dont you agree? I realize your logic is Manning was successful in the redzone without a running game, but he had good/great targets on an extremely elborate passing team. I think your example is more likely the exception to the rule.

I wasnt so much setting the bar, only showing that it can be done without a significant running attack. And keep in mind that when your down to one receiver he is going to be double teamed so that also makes it harder for Manning to score but he got it done anyway. He as a QB was able to get players around him to perform better when it mattered, something that Kyle cannot do.

[NorCalBronco7]

No, just about how you can justify Orton's pathetic conversion offense by blaming the defense.

What the hell are you talking about? :lol: Dude, you have some major reading compehension issues when talking about Orton.


Uh... Going O-FER 3 in the redzone.... Get it? THATS what causes you to lose.


going 3-3 kicking field goals gives you 9 points...
See..... 3 + 3 +3 ( 3 field goals) gives you points


NOT getting that 4th down play gives you 0 ( ZERO ) points


How hard is it to understand 9 points > ZERO points?

get back to me when you pass 1st grade Tommy

Whos Tommy? :confused: I dont get it.

But your right about not scoring in the redzone means that you dont score. Not only is it brilliant and innovative, but its specific and really identifies the Broncos redzone issues in its entirety. Thanks.

[I Eat Staples]

It's spelled "you're."

(Thus ends my final post toward you.)

-----


Oh noes!!!! Spelling Nazi!!!!!

I think technically it was a grammar issue.

[Northman]

I think technically it was a grammar issue.

True dat, but since he stated "it's spelled" i went with that.

[NorCalBronco7]

Careful. If you read my last post you would see i didnt pin it ALL on the QB. I just said it starts with him, especially when it comes to scoring in the redzone. The plays run through him.



Defense was bad, no question. It was also bad in 08' but we werent nearly as bad with scoring and 3rd down conversions like we were last year. There's no mistaking that once we switched from Cutler to Orton our 3rd down conversion got worse. It was the same problem we faced with Plummer although he was surrounded by a better team than both Jay and Kyle.



I wasnt so much setting the bar, only showing that it can be done without a significant running attack. And keep in mind that when your down to one receiver he is going to be double teamed so that also makes it harder for Manning to score but he got it done anyway. He as a QB was able to get players around him to perform better when it mattered, something that Kyle cannot do.

I agree Orton not being to convert hurt the defense. That never helps.

Manning had Wayne, Collie and Garcon the entire year. Thats a good group of recievers. Clark was healthy the first half of the season. Tamme stepped in and did very good. Im not saying Orton is good in the redzone, but he didnt have a TE target at all, and only one redzone target in Lloyd. Thats it. Your point about Manning being a better leader than Orton goes without saying.

[Northman]

I agree Orton not being to convert hurt the defense. That never helps.

Manning had Wayne, Collie and Garcon the entire year. Thats a good group of recievers. Clark was healthy the first half of the season. Tamme stepped in and did very good. Im not saying Orton is good in the redzone, but he didnt have a TE target at all, and only one redzone target in Lloyd. Thats it. Your point about Manning being a better leader than Orton goes without saying.

Uh, no he didnt brother.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5946698

[NorCalBronco7]

Uh, no he didnt brother.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5946698

Ok so Collie played in 9 games, contributing in 8. Does it really make a difference? Manny had 3 good targets all year and Orton had 1. Its just not a good comparison.

[NightTerror218]

Ok so Collie played in 9 games, contributing in 8. Does it really make a difference? Manny had 3 good targets all year and Orton had 1. Its just not a good comparison.

Lloyd, Gaffney, Royal and Thomas/Decker......seems a bit more then 1 target...i would say 3 good targets and 2 up and coming.

[Northman]

Ok so Collie played in 9 games, contributing in 8. Does it really make a difference? Manny had 3 good targets all year and Orton had 1. Its just not a good comparison.

Garcon wasnt a star before he came to the league man. Manning made him a better player, just like he did with Collie. And i beg to differ, while Lloyd is good Royal is also good (but poorly used by McDaniels). So with that its basically a wash in terms of 2 healthy contributing wr's for each with one Qb getting it done and the other not. Obviously, your going to keep trying to spin this so we will have to agree to disagree.

[Jsteve01]

why are we comparing a hof top 5 all time qb to Orton. It's not fair. Kyle is serviceable and with even an avg run game will be much better than last year. I keep hearing about his lack of performance on 3rd down and in the 4th....it's hard to perform no matter who you are when the defense is dropping 7 or 8 and still getting pressure. The lack of a run game last year affected every other phase plain and simple

[Northman]

Kyle is serviceable

Thats all that needed to be said. Ive been stating that for months now.

[NightTerror218]

why are we comparing a hof top 5 all time qb to Orton. It's not fair. Kyle is serviceable and with even an avg run game will be much better than last year. I keep hearing about his lack of performance on 3rd down and in the 4th....it's hard to perform no matter who you are when the defense is dropping 7 or 8 and still getting pressure. The lack of a run game last year affected every other phase plain and simple


um....he got worse as the year went on.....he always get injured. He fails period. We are not a playoff team with him......has he ever sniffed the playoffs?

[Northman]

um....he got worse as the year went on.....he always get injured. He fails period. We are not a playoff team with him......has he ever sniffed the playoffs?

Once, with the Bears. And then he was benched in favor of Grossman.

[BroncoStud]

why are we comparing a hof top 5 all time qb to Orton. It's not fair. Kyle is serviceable and with even an avg run game will be much better than last year. I keep hearing about his lack of performance on 3rd down and in the 4th....it's hard to perform no matter who you are when the defense is dropping 7 or 8 and still getting pressure. The lack of a run game last year affected every other phase plain and simple

Orton produced better LAST year than he did in 2009 when the running game was still good.

It's a double-edged blade.

Orton benefitted greatly from the spread offense where he was allowed to throw the ball 38 times a game. His stats, which are what his supporters hang their hats on, were inflated because of this. You most likely aren't going to have good rushing totals when you are throwing 38 times a game unless you run a no-huddle offense, which we didn't.

So you can't have it both ways if you want to be objective. 3rd downs have more to do with Orton's inability to make plays, something that has plagued him his entire NFL career than it does anything else. Once again, that is the reason the Cardinals didn't even want to make an offer for his services.

Baffling that people still support such mediocrity after having gotten the honor of seeing Mr. Elway show them the way the position should be played.

[NorCalBronco7]

Lloyd, Gaffney, Royal and Thomas/Decker......seems a bit more then 1 target...i would say 3 good targets and 2 up and coming.

Thomas and Decker didnt contribute much at all last year. Royal hasnt done anything since his rookie year for whatever reason.

Gaffney....... is okay. Hes a decent reviever but I dont think hes is or has ever been considered a good redzone target.

Manny had Wayne, Garcon, a productive TE and Collie (half the year). Its not even close. All have proven to be good redzone targets.

[NightTerror218]

Thomas and Decker didnt contribute much at all last year. Royal hasnt done anything since his rookie year for whatever reason.

Gaffney....... is okay. Hes a decent reviever but I dont think hes is or has ever been considered a good redzone target.

Manny had Wayne, Garcon, a productive TE and Collie (half the year). Its not even close. All have proven to be good redzone targets.


How many did Vick have? 1?

How did Brees have? Maybe 2?

Brady? end of season he had 1

Culter? Do the bears have any competent ones?

Many teams dont have that many.

[Juriga72]

Orton benefitted greatly from the spread offense where he was allowed to throw the ball 38 times a game. His stats, which are what his supporters hang their hats on, were inflated because of this. You most likely aren't going to have good rushing totals when you are throwing 38 times a game unless you run a no-huddle offense, which we didn't.

Baffling that people still support such mediocrity after having gotten the honor of seeing Mr. Elway show them the way the position should be played.

Which is why went the whole Miami trade tlak was going on... Orton fans were all about "Now he'll be in a run first offense that will help him"

Denver-36.2 passes/game
Miami 34.8 passes/game

I would LOVED to have seen this new struggle being blamed upon "He needs a running game, and a great defense, and great recievers, and Special teams... THEN he can lead our team to the playoffs"...

[BroncoStud]

Thomas and Decker didnt contribute much at all last year. Royal hasnt done anything since his rookie year for whatever reason.

Gaffney....... is okay. Hes a decent reviever but I dont think hes is or has ever been considered a good redzone target.

Manny had Wayne, Garcon, a productive TE and Collie (half the year). Its not even close. All have proven to be good redzone targets.

Dude, Pierre Garcon is NOT a good WR. If it weren't for Manning throwing him the ball the guy might not be in the NFL.

Wayne is pretty much all Manning had last year as far as proven receiving talent, and his offensive line was banged up too, and they had no running game either.

Like stated above, comparing Manning to Orton is like comparing the value of an ounce of Gold to a pound of Shit, but at least be objective. Garcon is NOT that good.

[Juriga72]

Thomas and Decker didnt contribute much at all last year. Royal hasnt done anything since his rookie year for whatever reason.

Gaffney....... is okay. Hes a decent reviever but I dont think hes is or has ever been considered a good redzone target.

Manny had Wayne, Garcon, a productive TE and Collie (half the year). Its not even close. All have proven to be good redzone targets.

WHERE did Mannings run game go to this year? Gonzo was lost in week 2??? Manning suited up with guys he NEVER even practiced with...LOL

[Ravage!!!]

Ok so Collie played in 9 games, contributing in 8. Does it really make a difference? Manny had 3 good targets all year and Orton had 1. Its just not a good comparison.

yeah.. but its nots a coincidence that all these receivers become "good wrs" when playing for the colts.

[Northman]

Dude, Pierre Garcon is NOT a good WR. If it weren't for Manning throwing him the ball the guy might not be in the NFL.

Wayne is pretty much all Manning had last year as far as proven receiving talent, and his offensive line was banged up too, and they had no running game either.

Like stated above, comparing Manning to Orton is like comparing the value of an ounce of Gold to a pound of Shit, but at least be objective. Garcon is NOT that good.

I tried to explain that. I guess people think that INDY is just extremely good at drafting Elite receivers. lmao

No....Manning had nothing to do with making them better. nah.....:lol:

[Juriga72]

I tried to explain that. I guess people think that INDY is just extremely good at drafting Elite receivers. lmao

No....Manning had nothing to do with making them better. nah.....:lol:

Marvin Harrison would shoot you for making that kind of judgement...

[NorCalBronco7]

Garcon wasnt a star before he came to the league man. Manning made him a better player, just like he did with Collie. And i beg to differ, while Lloyd is good Royal is also good (but poorly used by McDaniels). So with that its basically a wash in terms of 2 healthy contributing wr's for each with one Qb getting it done and the other not. Obviously, your going to keep trying to spin this so we will have to agree to disagree.

Eddie Royal? CMON MAN! Hes hasnt been a factor for years. Your grasping at straws now.

If you consider Wayne (HOFer), Garcon , Collie (half the year), Clark (HOFer, half the year) and Tamme in the same boat as Lloyd, Gaffeny, Royal (in the slot), and Grahm, then this conversation needs to be over.....:coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

Marvin Harrison would shoot you for making that kind of judgement...

Harrison was awesome, but he benefittd from having Manning. Just as Rice benefitted from having both Montana and Young.

[Northman]

Eddie Royal? CMON MAN! Hes hasnt been a factor for years. Your grasping at straws now.

If you consider Wayne (HOFer), Garcon , Collie (half the year), Clark (HOFer, half the year) and Tamme in the same boat as Lloyd, Gaffeny, Royal (in the slot), and Grahm, then this conversation needs to be over.....:coffee:

Garcon and Collie are not elite receivers. Believe it or not if Gaffney, Royal, or Graham went to Indy Manning would make them allstars. Wayne, Clark, and Gonzalas (as that is stretching it) are Mannings true receiving threats. If you believe otherwise i dont know what to tell you.

[Northman]

Harrison was awesome, but he benefittd from having Manning. Just as Rice benefitted from having both Montana and Young.

Rice did benefit from good QB's but he also shined with Gannon so Rice was special from the get go.

[NightTerror218]

Rice did benefit from good QB's but he also shined with Gannon so Rice was special from the get go.

Rice is considered by many to be the best football player of all time.

[Ravage!!!]

Rice did benefit from good QB's but he also shined with Gannon so Rice was special from the get go.

Rice is/was special without a doubt. But he probably doesn't have that many TD receptions if he spent his entire career with Kyle Orton and Rich Gannon.

[Jsteve01]

Once, with the Bears. And then he was benched in favor of Grossman.

which turned out to be a wonderful decision

[Ravage!!!]

which turned out to be a wonderful decision

Considering they went to the Super Bowl...yeah... pretty good decision.

[Northman]

which turned out to be a wonderful decision

Yea, going to SB sucks. :lol:

[Juriga72]

Yea, going to SB sucks. :lol:


Well... Compared to losing 21 out of 25 games it does

[I Eat Staples]

I just skimmed through the posts on this page and could have sworn I saw Orton being compared to Peyton freakin' Manning. Who, by the way, won a superbowl with one of the shittiest defenses I've seen.

And Pierre Garcon has hands of stone. Note unintentional rhyme.

[NorCalBronco7]

Dude, Pierre Garcon is NOT a good WR. If it weren't for Manning throwing him the ball the guy might not be in the NFL.

Wayne is pretty much all Manning had last year as far as proven receiving talent, and his offensive line was banged up too, and they had no running game either.

Like stated above, comparing Manning to Orton is like comparing the value of an ounce of Gold to a pound of Shit, but at least be objective. Garcon is NOT that good.

I never said he was a GOOD WR BS, but a good redzone target, which he is. 6Redzone TDs last year according to ESPN.


yeah.. but its nots a coincidence that all these receivers become "good wrs" when playing for the colts.

We're talking about redzone threats. Thats it. Not how good a wr is overall.







Garcon and Collie are not elite receivers. Believe it or not if Gaffney, Royal, or Graham went to Indy Manning would make them allstars. Wayne, Clark, and Gonzalas (as that is stretching it) are Mannings true receiving threats. If you believe otherwise i dont know what to tell you.

LMAO oh my god.

Wayne, Garcon, Collie (who 10 of his 13 career TDs have come in the RZ), Clark, and Tamme (for his brief period) comprise of much, much better redzone targets than the Broncos had.......and its not even close.

And Manning has had 2 probowl wrs on his roster, ever. Not every reciever is overrated or instantly a pro bowler because they have a HOF Qb throwing it to them.


I tried to explain that. I guess people think that INDY is just extremely good at drafting Elite receivers. lmao

No....Manning had nothing to do with making them better. nah.....:lol:

Thats a very convenient postion to have in this debate......

[Mike]

Manning makes his WRs. Wayne and Harrison aside, those WRs are third, fourth string on most other teams.

[NorCalBronco7]

Harrison was awesome, but he benefittd from having Manning. Just as Rice benefitted from having both Montana and Young.

And vis versa.....so your point is moot.

[Northman]

Well... Compared to losing 21 out of 25 games it does


Manning makes his WRs. Wayne and Harrison aside, those WRs are third, fourth string on most other teams.


Unfortuantely, my boy NorCal is struggling with that concept. Im going to have fun ripping him a new one in fantasy football this year. :D

[NorCalBronco7]

Manning makes his WRs. Wayne and Harrison aside, those WRs are third, fourth string on most other teams.

Ok, but me and North have been comparing Mannings redzone targets to Ortons redzone targets.

Your welcome to join anytime.

[Lonestar]

Not sure what you're trying to say but trust me, and it will happen in week 1 when the Raiders pound on us, Orton will be booed. It won't stop. Unless Denver just lights it up on offense Orton will be booed.

A running game has never made a difference for Orton anyway and he's had good defenses. I am making the presumption our offense will look more like Carolinas than that of McDaniels, which means Orton will be asked to make NFL drops, not throw out of the shotgun, and history tells us he struggles at this.

The boos will rain, and they will eventually pour, and hopefully Orton plays himself out of the gig and we can evalaute the backups. I'm not like a select few of you on here, I won't support a QB who is holding our team hostage so he can get a taste of free agency and get paid. I never liked Orton and it will be a great day when he is off this roster. :salute:


so it is safe to say your opine is biased.

BTW he is not holding us hostage.. they presented him terms he did not like..

SO IYO he should have taken them to make you happy..

Sounds pretty juvenile to me..

[NorCalBronco7]

Unfortuantely, my boy NorCal is struggling with that concept. Im going to have fun ripping him a new one in fantasy football this year. :D

Considering your mental fortitude in this debate, Im far from worried. :salute:

[Lonestar]

Careful. If you read my last post you would see i didnt pin it ALL on the QB. I just said it starts with him, especially when it comes to scoring in the redzone. The plays run through him.



Defense was bad, no question. It was also bad in 08' but we werent nearly as bad with scoring and 3rd down conversions like we were last year. There's no mistaking that once we switched from Cutler to Orton our 3rd down conversion got worse. It was the same problem we faced with Plummer although he was surrounded by a better team than both Jay and Kyle.



I wasnt so much setting the bar, only showing that it can be done without a significant running attack. And keep in mind that when your down to one receiver he is going to be double teamed so that also makes it harder for Manning to score but he got it done anyway. He as a QB was able to get players around him to perform better when it mattered, something that Kyle cannot do.

Yet give Manning our oline and I suspect his numbers would not have been quite as good as they were.. Plus the lack of a great TE (44) certainly would have been an issue..

I susepct Manning on our team the past couple of years well I'd bet his neck would have been the least of his worries..

[BroncoStud]

Ok, but me and North have been comparing Mannings redzone targets to Ortons redzone targets.

Your welcome to join anytime.

You gotta believe that Manning wouldn't have any problems throwing TDs to the guys on this roster. Imagine what Lloyd could do with Manning tossing him lasers where he barely has to adjust on the ball and isn't forced to make circus catches!

[Northman]

Yet give Manning our oline and I suspect his numbers would not have been quite as good as they were.. Plus the lack of a great TE (44) certainly would have been an issue..

I susepct Manning on our team the past couple of years well I'd bet his neck would have been the least of his worries..

Ill take that bet. One of Manning's greatest assets is a quick release, something that Kyle doesnt do. Manning also knows how to adjust at the line and read defenses EXTREMELY well. Kyle, not so much.

[red98]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3214/kyle-orton

Not even waiting for the games, Orton not to be traded and is the man in Denver this year according to Schefter.

This is good news in the sense that if it holds true through the whole season it means our QB of the future isn't on the roster yer.

Unfortunately it would mean Tebow is a bust, but that wouldn't be unusual for a McIdiot pick.

Looking forward to watching our D get better while we try and guess which of next years QB draft class will be the Broncos first pick.

[chazoe60]

This is good news in the sense that if it holds true through the whole season it means our QB of the future isn't on the roster yer.

Unfortunately it would mean Tebow is a bust, but that wouldn't be unusual for a McIdiot pick.

Looking forward to watching our D get better while we try and guess which of next years QB draft class will be the Broncos first pick.

This is very true. If Tebow can't get a shot and is not the QBOTF for the Broncs then we absolutely know one thing for sure, the QBOTF of this team is not on the current roster.

[NorCalBronco7]

You gotta believe that Manning wouldn't have any problems throwing TDs to the guys on this roster. Imagine what Lloyd could do with Manning tossing him lasers where he barely has to adjust on the ball and isn't forced to make circus catches!

Would AP running behind the Broncos offensive line been better than Knowshown Moreno? Yeah, but it doesnt take away the fact that the offensive line sucked at run blocking.

Just like Peyton would have help the Broncos wrs in the redzone, but it doesnt mean they still dont suck near the goaline.

Keep them coming, this is fun.

[I Eat Staples]

You gotta believe that Manning wouldn't have any problems throwing TDs to the guys on this roster. Imagine what Lloyd could do with Manning tossing him lasers where he barely has to adjust on the ball and isn't forced to make circus catches!

No way, Lloyd would suck. He ONLY can do circus catches, he drops the easy ones.

[Lancane]

This is very true. If Tebow can't get a shot and is not the QBOTF for the Broncs then we absolutely know one thing for sure, the QBOTF of this team is not on the current roster.

Nope...I've been saying as much and it's about 90% chance now that Denver will be drafting a quarterback with their first overall pick in the 2012 draft. Who exactly will depend on the how many games we win or lose.

Barkley, Luck, Jones, Lindley, Cousins come on down...

:lol:

[chazoe60]

If Manning was our QB last year we would have been we would have been 8-8 or 9-7 Manning would have won the Jax, SF, KC, and Jets games for sure and possibly the AZ game, we were in that game late until our defense just wore down from exhaustion.

Orton is not in the same universe as Manning in any way.

[Jsteve01]

Nope...I've been saying as much and it's about 90% chance now that Denver will be drafting a quarterback with their first overall pick in the 2012 draft. Who exactly will depend on the how many games we win or lose.

Barkley, Luck, Jones, Lindley, Cousins come on down...

:lol:

you can forget about Luck. Lindley or Jones would be the guys I like.

[Canmore]

No way, Lloyd would suck. He ONLY can do circus catches, he drops the easy ones.

Iirc that is what separated him last season, he made all the catches, not just the circus ones. All of his career he has been known for making the difficult look easy and the easy difficult. Last season he put it all together. Hoping that he continues.

[chazoe60]

you can forget about Luck. Lindley or Jones would be the guys I like.

Why can we forget about Luck? I keep seeing people say this but we picked 2nd why is it inconceivable that we pick 1st next season? Have you seen our schedule?

[BroncoStud]

you can forget about Luck. Lindley or Jones would be the guys I like.

Landry Jones is NOT a great QB... He's robotic and erratic, and he struggles to make plays when it breaks down. He's awfully similar to a guy who is currently on the roster starting at QB for the Broncos...

If it isn't Luck it's going to suck.

[Lancane]

you can forget about Luck. Lindley or Jones would be the guys I like.

If I had to choose of those two I would say Lindley, he can make all the throws, has a pretty good arm and is pro-ready. Jones lacks the pro-readiness but is otherwise a solid quarterback (at times)...but Bowlen is an Oklahoma Alumni and could have a very big hard on for Jones.

[NorCalBronco7]

Orton is not in the same universe as Manning in any way.

Robert Ayers isnt on the same level as Deacon Jones, too!

This is really going somewhere.

[chazoe60]

If I had to choose of those two I would say Lindley, he can make all the throws, has a pretty good arm and is pro-ready. Jones lacks the pro-readiness but is otherwise a solid quarterback (at times)...but Bowlen is an Oklahoma Alumni and could have a very big hard on for Jones.

Hey Lan, what do you think of Nick Foles?

[Lancane]

Hey Lan, what do you think of Nick Foles?

He's the dark horse of the draft class, if he has a tremendously solid season he could easily break into the first round. He's got the experience you look for with a prospect whose faced multiple looking defenses, has a pretty solid arm can make most of the throws and will probably be more pro-ready then Jones and maybe even Cousins.

Plus I think Top would love to see him in a Denver uniform, he's a big softy for Arizona collegiate products.

[Lancane]

I will also add that Foles is not the only dark horse that could basically do a Cutler and climb up the draft charts without warning, let's not forget Ryan Tannehill or Brandon Weeden.

All three could really change up the draft order...

Prospects to watch this season, Andrew Luck and Matt Barkley for sure, Landry Jones is another obvious to watch along with Kirk Cousins and Ryan Lindley. Chandler Harnish is a relative unknown to look out for, along with Brandon Weeden, Ryan Tennehill, Nick Foles and B.J. Coleman of Chattanooga.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Robert Ayers isnt on the same level as Deacon Jones, too!

This is really going somewhere.

Hence why we keep bringing in people to compete with, and possibly replace him. You don't think we brought in Derrick Harvey and inquired about Osi and Jamaal Anderson because of their good looks do you? Right now, Ayers has very little chance of becoming the guy we hope he will.

Remember, for all of Mike Mayock's Monday morning GMing and pimping him as "the best D-lineman in this class three years from now", he's as wrong as often as he is right. He pimped the shit out of Alex Smith over Aaron Rodgers a couple of years ago, too.

Ayers has shown NOTHING. His "legend" as some kind of run stuffer was built on ONE game where he made a couple of good tackles against CJ2K at Tennessee. If anyone here can provide me any stats, proof, or evidence - video or otherwise of Ayers greatness or even potential, I'd LOVE to hear/see it.

Ayers will be lucky to be the starting left DE when we play Oakland on MNF. The dude is hot garbage.

[NorCalBronco7]

Hence why we keep bringing in people to compete to with (Ayers)....

If the Broncos are waiting for a player like D. Jones or Manning at each position, then they might have to wait a couple decades, or more.

If you dont understand the logic, and lack there of, behind my post to Chaz (which looks like you didnt), then you would know comment was made in jest.

Im with you on Ayers though, hes trash. Complete and utter garbage.

[Lancane]

People are rushing to judgement on Ayers, let's not forget that he was a standout collegiate defensive end in a forty-three defense and drafted by a team transitioning to the thirty-four. I'm not a big Ayers fan to begin with, I still think Denver should have drafted Sanchez over both Moreno and Ayers...but it is what it is in the end.

He will not be the next Peppers, but he could end up being a solid starting defensive end in the new defensive scheme which is a better fit, just like I believe the return of the ZBS will indeed help Moreno. Being that he's been in the 3-4, I'll wait to pass judgement for now though.

[NorCalBronco7]

People are rushing to judgement on Ayers, let's not forget that he was a standout collegiate defensive end in a forty-three defense and drafted by a team transitioning to the thirty-four. I'm not a big Ayers fan to begin with, I still think Denver should have drafted Sanchez over both Moreno and Ayers...but it is what it is in the end.

He will not be the next Peppers, but he could end up being a solid starting defensive end in the new defensive scheme which is a better fit, just like I believe the return of the ZBS will indeed help Moreno. Being that he's been in the 3-4, I'll wait to pass judgement for now though.

How is getting 4 sacks his last year of college make him a "standout". Who cares if he can stuff the run but cant rush, he isnt a DT.

[Lancane]

How is getting 4 sacks his last year of college make him a "standout". Who cares if he can stuff the run but cant rush, he isnt a DT.

He's not a rush orientated defensive end like Dumervil was and is, he's run orientated, no one ever expected him to be a sacking machine. Did people really believe that McDaniels drafted him to be a sack-artist? He's a run-stuffing 4-3 strong side defensive end...I never thought for a minute that he was being drafted to rush the passer though, it would be nice right now if he was...but it isn't so.

[broncobryce]

How is getting 4 sacks his last year of college make him a "standout". Who cares if he can stuff the run but cant rush, he isnt a DT.

No, but it makes him a 1st and 2nd down player. You know, like Orton.

[NorCalBronco7]

He's not a rush orientated defensive end like Dumervil was and is, he's run orientated, no one ever expected him to be a sacking machine. Did people really believe that McDaniels drafted him to be a sack-artist? He's a run-stuffing 4-3 strong side defensive end...I never thought for a minute that he was being drafted to rush the passer though, it would be nice right now if he was...but it isn't so.

I dont care if its a strong side or weakside end, if Ayers cant rush the passer, he'll be gone. 43 ends need to at least create some kind of pressure and Ayers simply cant. Maybe he makes a turnaround, but I wouldnt put money on it.

[NorCalBronco7]

No, but it makes him a 1st and 2nd down player. You know, like Orton.

Ohhh burn.

Broncos wont want to pay first round money for a 2 down end who cant create pressure.

[Jsteve01]

listen the guy has played out of position for 2 years. You know when our run defense went completely in the toilet? when Ayers got hurt. Go back and watch the tape of Jacksonville and Tennessee. He was fantastic in those games. Then factor in playing opposite doom in his natural position as LE and running zone blitz etc with Miller over his back. Im pretty confident that if he stays healthy he has nice year.

Im still not sure why guys who played under the joke of a regime we just endured get written off although the scheme and coaching were Pop Werner level

[NorCalBronco7]

listen the guy has played out of position for 2 years. You know when our run defense went completely in the toilet? when Ayers got hurt. Go back and watch the tape of Jacksonville and Tennessee. He was fantastic in those games. Then factor in playing opposite doom in his natural position as LE and running zone blitz etc with Miller over his back. Im pretty confident that if he stays healthy he has nice year.

Im still not sure why guys who played under the joke of a regime we just endured get written off although the scheme and coaching were Pop Werner level

Im trying to remain optomistic about Ayers, but its really hard. Maybe the switch helps. We'll see.

[BeefStew25]

Im trying to remain optomistic about Ayers, but its really hard. Maybe the switch helps. We'll see.

Tubby brought up a good point. Ayers really was key against the Titans and steering Chris Johnson back inside. He used the phrase 'controlling the edge.'

I told him Kiper called and wanted his job back.

[NorCalBronco7]

Tubby brought up a good point. Ayers really was key against the Titans and steering Chris Johnson back inside. He used the phrase 'controlling the edge.'

I told him Kiper called and wanted his job back.

A handful of games in 2 years doesnt make anyone feel confident about Ayers. Jamracus had a good game for crying out loud. The culmination of Ayers career thus far is extemely underwhelming.

[I Eat Staples]

Robert Ayers sucks.

[Jsteve01]

Tubby brought up a good point. Ayers really was key against the Titans and steering Chris Johnson back inside. He used the phrase 'controlling the edge.'

I told him Kiper called and wanted his job back.


tubby is exactly right. If you looked at our defense through 4 games you had to be pretty excited. What happened? Ayer's get's hurt, and we can't run the freakin rock to save our lives. Thus gassing the front 7 and exposing a lack of depth.

Look at the flipping rush defense through the first 4 games. MJD under 100 yards. Chris Johnson under 60 Addai under 30. Seattle nada....Then week 5 Ayers and Hunter get hurt vs the Ravens and wheels fell off.

it's not hard to evaluate those stats and combine them with our lack of a run game and time of possession and say wow. Ayers had impact and wow if we were even middle of the pack running the ball maybe our geriatric line wouldn't be so gassed in the second half.

[Jsteve01]

A handful of games in 2 years doesnt make anyone feel confident about Ayers. Jamracus had a good game for crying out loud. The culmination of Ayers career thus far is extemely underwhelming.

not a handful of games...Ayers was solid the first four games of the season last year. It was a trend. Then he got hurt and again the wheels fell off.

[NorCalBronco7]

not a handful of games...Ayers was solid the first four games of the season last year. It was a trend. Then he got hurt and again the wheels fell off.

Yeah Ayers did play well before the injury.

[Lonestar]

Ill take that bet. One of Manning's greatest assets is a quick release, something that Kyle doesnt do. Manning also knows how to adjust at the line and read defenses EXTREMELY well. Kyle, not so much.

But then Manning is going into his upteenth year also..

As someone said using Manning as a bench mark is somewhat unfair..

Will Orton ever be MAnning NOPE but then NO One has expected him to be nor stated he would be..

BUT IMO he is not trash like his haters think he is either..

I look forward to seeing him serve up alot of crow this coming year.


Although I'd much rather get something for him in..compensation rather than see him walk..

[Jsteve01]

dedication to the run and an attacking defense? Yeah, Kyle's going to be in pretty good shape this year. It's funny that every single former football player who has watched them both says Orton is the guy. Only people clamoring for Tebow are the mob and the media types

[Lonestar]

I dont care if its a strong side or weakside end, if Ayers cant rush the passer, he'll be gone. 43 ends need to at least create some kind of pressure and Ayers simply cant. Maybe he makes a turnaround, but I wouldnt put money on it.

NOt so sure he can't create pressure.

I remember towards the end of the season as a rookie he was keeping the QB from escaping on his side thus/while doom was getting him for his side.

there were 3 or 4 sacks that Ayers would have had if Doom would have been a split second later they would have shared the sack..

I think lots of folks will be surprised at what he gets done this year..

[chazoe60]

dedication to the run and an attacking defense? Yeah, Kyle's going to be in pretty good shape this year. It's funny that every single former football player who has watched them both says Orton is the guy. Only people clamoring for Tebow are the mob and the media types

Funny how the majority of fans of both teams he's played for have wanted Orton gone, not to mention both FOs have traded him or tried to. Yep, that speaks volumes. Couple those fact with the fact that when he was on the block there was one tiny nibble and nothing even close to hook setting.

[Jsteve01]

Funny how the majority of fans of both teams he's played for have wanted Orton gone, not to mention both FOs have traded him or tried to. Yep, that speaks volumes. Couple those fact with the fact that when he was on the block there was one tiny nibble and nothing even close to hook setting.

right because the fan base is always the way to gauge a player's value. You do know Elway was booed early on here right? And you're aware the great dan Reeves drafted a quarterback to replace him right?

Funny how every former player close to this situation other than TD has stated that Orton should start because he's the better qb. See like I said before the position is about throwing the football. Not leading the team in rushing

[Jsteve01]

NOt so sure he can't create pressure.

I remember towards the end of the season as a rookie he was keeping the QB from escaping on his side thus/while doom was getting him for his side.

there were 3 or 4 sacks that Ayers would have had if Doom would have been a split second later they would have shared the sack..

I think lots of folks will be surprised at what he gets done this year..

stop thinking logically and base everything on emotion and hatred for mcd would you? you're making too much sense

[Ravage!!!]

"almost getting there" Almost? I think the saying goes something like... "close only counts in horsehoes and hand grenades.

[chazoe60]

stop thinking logically and base everything on emotion and hatred for mcd would you? you're making too much sense

Another McD appologist? Holy shit. Too funny:laugh::laugh:

[bcbronc]

stop thinking logically and base everything on emotion and hatred for mcd would you? you're making too much sense

hahaha you think Jr...er Lonestar...was using logic! bwaaaahahahahaa :laugh:

You must be new here. Something to remember, even when you agree with Jr, it's not because he used logic. It falls under "even the broken clock is right twice a day". :elefant:

[DenBronx]

Carefull guys...you're treading closely to getting put on JR's "IGGY" :laugh:

[Juriga72]

stop thinking logically and base everything on emotion and hatred for mcd would you? you're making too much sense

Mcdummy was the best 5-21 coach I have ever seen there. I mean snatching defeat from the jaws of victory week after week by going 0/5 in the red zone.. GOD he inspired me

[topscribe]

Another McD appologist? Holy shit. Too funny:laugh::laugh:

In other words, another object of ridicule?

-----

[I Eat Staples]

Carefull guys...you're treading closely to getting put on JR's "IGGY" :laugh:

I believe he ignored me after my first post. Beat that guys.