More News on the Failure of the Orton to Miami Trade

[topscribe]

According to Omar Kelly of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=741&f=134181), the Orton trade fell
through for two reasons:

1. Denver wanted a second and a starting defensive lineman. Miami wanted to
give them a second and a backup DL.

2. Orton would not budge on reworking his contract.

We knew about #2, of course, but I had not seen or heard much about the
details of the trade negotiations. (If I'm out of touch on this, I apologize for
this thread.)

Moreover, Kelly declares the deal as dead. Not in a coma, not on ice, but dead.

Quite a bit on Brandon Marshall's recent revelation on his mental condition and
Marshall's reaction to Darrent Williams' death, too, BTW. Kelly is a personal
friend of Marshall's.

-----

[SOCALORADO.]

*sighs, shakes head in disgust*

[HammeredOut]

Off to seattle ?? The Broncos need to get rid of him somewhere. Seattle can repeat playoffs, and have a real shot at Orton.

[topscribe]

Off to seattle ?? The Broncos need to get rid of him somewhere. Seattle can repeat playoffs, and have a real shot at Orton.

Why? One of the things Kelly mentioned was, why would Fox trade off the best
QB on the Broncos roster? You don't get rid of your best QB. That isn't rational.

-----

[Lancane]

According to Omar Kelly of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=741&f=134181), the Orton trade fell
through for two reasons:

1. Denver wanted a second and a starting defensive lineman. Miami wanted to
give them a second and a backup DL.

2. Orton would not budge on reworking his contract.

We knew about #2, of course, but I had not seen or heard much about the
details of the trade negotiations. (If I'm out of touch on this, I apologize for
this thread.)

Moreover, Kelly declares the deal as dead. Not in a coma, not on ice, but dead.

Quite a bit on Brandon Marshall's recent revelation on his mental condition and
Marshall's reaction to Darrent Williams' death, too, BTW. Kelly is a personal
friend of Marshall's.

-----

According to several league sources Denver never even spoke to Miami extensively, they let Orton's agent seek a trade and he refused what Miami wanted to pay him. Denver never demanded anything, so I don't know where Kelly is getting his info, as far as we all knew Denver would take nothing less then a second round pick but the deal fell through because of Orton.

[rationalfan]

i don't mind this. it suggests the broncos view orton as a starting-caliber QB and wanted that kind of bounty in return.

it also suggests they're not in love with tebow - at all. if they were, they wouldn't want such a return to offset the loss.

say what you will about xanders, but when he's not dealing out of desperation (maroney, alphonso smith) he sticks to his plan and doesn't balk until he gets it.

[topscribe]

According to several league sources Denver never even spoke to Miami extensively, they let Orton's agent seek a trade and he refused what Miami wanted to pay him. Denver never demanded anything, so I don't know where Kelly is getting his info, as far as we all knew Denver would take nothing less then a second round pick but the deal fell through because of Orton.

Listen to the interview. It won't blow out your eardrums.

-----

[Lancane]

Why? One of the things Kelly mentioned was, why would Fox trade off the best
QB on the Broncos roster? You don't get rid of your best QB. That isn't rational.

-----

It's very rational when the fan base is not worried about winning or losing only getting better and that same said quarterback is hindering evaluating those behind him and there development. We're not looking for a quick fix, were looking for the right one and Orton will never be that in the eyes of the Denver fandom.

[topscribe]

It's very rational when the fan base is not worried about winning or losing only getting better and that same said quarterback is hindering evaluating those behind him and there development. We're not looking for a quick fix, were looking for the right one and Orton will never be that in the eyes of the Denver fandom.

When anybody is not worried about winning or losing, that most emphatically is not rational . . .

-----

[NightTerror218]

i don't mind this. it suggests the broncos view orton as a starting-caliber QB and wanted that kind of bounty in return.

it also suggests they're not in love with tebow - at all. if they were, they wouldn't want such a return to offset the loss.

say what you will about xanders, but when he's not dealing out of desperation (maroney, alphonso smith) he sticks to his plan and doesn't balk until he gets it.

Why would this suggest no love for Tebow if they are trying to deal the "starter" of the team. They want the most they can get.....and that would profit the team.

[underrated29]

Off to seattle ?? The Broncos need to get rid of him somewhere. Seattle can repeat playoffs, and have a real shot at Orton.


Seattle gave up the lot for charlie bratworst, then this year traded for tarvaris jackson...


They are not making any more moves for QBs.

[Lancane]

Listen to the interview. It won't blow out your eardrums.

-----

Maybe I don't want to, maybe I don't feel I need to. And you can quit getting snappy with me Top, no one is buying what Orton is selling, give a select few and that's their prerogative. I'm re-stating what's been repeated by Klis from his sources inside Dove Valley and other reporters from ESPN and NFLN, did I say that Kelly is wrong? I said that's not what we've been hearing.

[Buff]

Off to seattle ?? The Broncos need to get rid of him somewhere. Seattle can repeat playoffs, and have a real shot at Orton.

Pete Carol has made it known that Tavaris Jackson is their starter. They landed the Vikings O-Coordinator, who is apparently comfortable making Jackson the guy. They are not in the market for a QB having invested in Jackson and given up a draft pick for Whitehurst last year.

[Lancane]

When anybody is not worried about winning or losing, that most emphatically is not rational . . .

-----

No, that's called rebuilding...

I'd rather rebuild a team that wins constantly for the next decade rather then wins now only to be back in the same pickle of rebuilding just a few years down the road.

[rationalfan]

Why would this suggest no love for Tebow if they are trying to deal the "starter" of the team. They want the most they can get.....and that would profit the team.

because, if this report is true, they wanted above market value for orton. to me, that suggests they would only let him go if his trade brings the team more value in return. if they valued tebow higher, they wouldn't demand more than orton is worth because they don't need him.

[Buff]

According to Omar Kelly of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=741&f=134181), the Orton trade fell
through for two reasons:

1. Denver wanted a second and a starting defensive lineman. Miami wanted to
give them a second and a backup DL.

2. Orton would not budge on reworking his contract.

We knew about #2, of course, but I had not seen or heard much about the
details of the trade negotiations. (If I'm out of touch on this, I apologize for
this thread.)

Moreover, Kelly declares the deal as dead. Not in a coma, not on ice, but dead.

Quite a bit on Brandon Marshall's recent revelation on his mental condition and
Marshall's reaction to Darrent Williams' death, too, BTW. Kelly is a personal
friend of Marshall's.

-----

Frankly, I like the fact that we drove a hard bargain and didn't cave when they wouldn't meet our price. At least we know our front office isn't in the business of getting fleeced anymore.

[NightTerror218]

because, if this report is true, they wanted above market value for orton. to me, that suggests they would only let him go if his trade brings the team more value in return. if they valued tebow higher, they wouldn't demand more than orton is worth because they don't need him.


I dont agree....I believe Orton is on the trading block and Tebow is not an option...they might listen to trades but would require a 1st rounder for him.

[topscribe]

Maybe I don't want to, maybe I don't feel I need to. And you can quit getting snappy with me Top, no one is buying what Orton is selling, give a select few and that's their prerogative. I'm re-stating what's been repeated by Klis from his sources inside Dove Valley and other reporters from ESPN and NFLN, did I say that Kelly is wrong? I said that's not what we've been hearing.

This thread is about the interview. If you don't want to hear the interview, then
why do you want to post in this thread?

And I did not get snappy with you. At all.

-----

[broncobryce]

because, if this report is true, they wanted above market value for orton. to me, that suggests they would only let him go if his trade brings the team more value in return. if they valued tebow higher, they wouldn't demand more than orton is worth because they don't need him.

It's still early. I hear a lot of regular reporters saying it's dead, but former GM types state otherwise. It's a game of poker, the stakes are getting higher with fans booing Henne and chanting Orton's name. God knows why he doesn't want to go there.
I guess he's scared he cant beat out Henne with not knowing the offense?

[Magnificent Seven]

I have to say Seahawks, Bengals, and Bills are Broncos' best bet. They need a better QB.

[Ravage!!!]

It's still early. I hear a lot of regular reporters saying it's dead, but former GM types state otherwise. It's a game of poker, the stakes are getting higher with fans booing Henne and chanting Orton's name. God knows why he doesn't want to go there.
I guess he's scared he cant beat out Henne with not knowing the offense?

No. He wants the same guaranteed money that he is getting now, and a long term deal. Otherwise, he gains NOTHING. Right now he has 9 million guaranteed and the chance to go UFA next season. If Miami can't give him MORE than that, why do it?

[broncobryce]

No. He wants the same guaranteed money that he is getting now, and a long term deal. Otherwise, he gains NOTHING. Right now he has 9 million guaranteed and the chance to go UFA next season. If Miami can't give him MORE than that, why do it?

Good point. But I'd rather go somewhere I'm wanted and cheered, not booed mercilessly once the choking starts again.
If money is all he wants, then absolutely he is doing the right thing. I'd rather get some money and be liked.

[bcbronc]

If the Dolphins and Orton couldn't come to term on a contract re-negotiation, I doubt the Fins and Broncos got too serious when discussing Orton's return. Why would they have?

[TXBRONC]

I think Orton really believes teams will be breaking down his door next year willing to pay him big time starter money.

[broncobryce]

I think Orton really believes teams will be breaking down his door next year willing to pay him big time starter money.

He's making a big mistake.

[topscribe]

I think Orton really believes teams will be breaking down his door next year willing to pay him big time starter money.

If he can avoid injury this year, that may just happen . . .

-----

[broncobryce]

If he can avoid injury this year, that may just happen . . .

-----

He will have to avoid being benched I believe as well. He's taking a big risk because he's never been healthy for a full season in his career IIRC.

[topscribe]

He will have to avoid being benched I believe as well. He's taking a big risk because he's never been healthy for a full season in his career IIRC.

That is true: and that would go into the Chaz's what do I want from Orton thread.

Just stay healthy.

If he does stay healthy . . . well, while he was healthy last year, he averaged
306 yards per game with 20 TDs vs. 6 INTs over 11 games and had a 96.0 QBR.
You just don't bench a QB like that . . .

-----

[Juriga72]

Why? One of the things Kelly mentioned was, why would Fox trade off the best
QB on the Broncos roster? You don't get rid of your best QB. That isn't rational.-----

You should email this to McDaniels....^

[BroncoStud]

I have to say Seahawks, Bengals, and Bills are Broncos' best bet. They need a better QB.

Seahawks and Bengals yes, the Bengals need a QB BADLY, but there is no way that Orton beats out Fitzpatrick in Buffalo, Fitz is a better player.

[Lancane]

Seahawks and Bengals yes, the Bengals need a QB BADLY, but there is no way that Orton beats out Fitzpatrick in Buffalo, Fitz is a better player.

But I don't think 'Horton' believes that, he thinks he's Payton Manning! :laugh:

[silkamilkamonico]

Seahawks and Bengals yes, the Bengals need a QB BADLY, but there is no way that Orton beats out Fitzpatrick in Buffalo, Fitz is a better player.

Many analysts believe Cincinatti got the best QB that is both a combination of ready to play now, and has a great upside. I think they are basically sold on just going with him right now, and if they pursue Orton in any way shape or form it surely isn't going to be for a high draft pick. They just spent a second rounder on 1 QB, they are not going to part with any high picks for another.

[broncobryce]

But I don't think 'Horton' believes that, he thinks he's Payton Manning! :laugh:

No, he doesn't even believe he can beat out Chad Henne

[topscribe]

No, he doesn't even believe he can beat out Chad Henne

Now we have people telling us all about Orton's belief system . . .

-----

[LTC Pain]

Now we have people telling us all about Orton's belief system . . .

-----

So, from armchair GMs to armchair mind readers??? :confused: :listen: :lol:

[TXBRONC]

He will have to avoid being benched I believe as well. He's taking a big risk because he's never been healthy for a full season in his career IIRC.

He's injury prone because he takes more hits than a pot head.

[Lonestar]

It's very rational when the fan base is not worried about winning or losing only getting better and that same said quarterback is hindering evaluating those behind him and there development. We're not looking for a quick fix, were looking for the right one and Orton will never be that in the eyes of the Denver fandom.

Actualy not so sure that Orton will never be the right fit.

I doubt that all if then hate him like a few of you do.

Most folks just want to win and if TEBOW is not the answer this year then I'd guess they would rather win.

Most are nit looking long term. That is inherent in today's culture win now and worry about the future later.

[Dzone]

He's injury prone because he takes more hits than a pot head.

That being said, its almost 4:20
:pound:

[Lancane]

Actualy not so sure that Orton will never be the right fit.

I doubt that all if then hate him like a few of you do.

Most folks just want to win and if TEBOW is not the answer this year then I'd guess they would rather win.

Most are nit looking long term. That is inherent in today's culture win now and worry about the future later.

I think you would be utterly surprised at the level of hatred there is against Orton (not talking about here, but in general), doubt me if you wish...but no matter, the fandom will never truly calmed down as it was until we have a young franchise quarterback in place...mark my words.

[topscribe]

I think you would be utterly surprised at the level of hatred there is against Orton (not talking about here, but in general), doubt me if you wish...but no matter, the fandom will never truly calmed down as it was until we have a young franchise quarterback in place...mark my words.

I believe the fandom will calm down with wins, as Elway suggested in his last
interview with Vic & Gary. They don't all think like you, Cane . . .

-----

[BroncoStud]

I believe the fandom will calm down with wins, as Elway suggested in his last
interview with Vic & Gary. They don't all think like you, Cane . . .

-----

Why are you assuming Kyle will win? What has he done to evidence that here in Denver? Games are won on 3rd down and in the redzone, his 2 biggest weaknesses, along with his overall lack of athleticism.

[Lancane]

I believe the fandom will calm down with wins, as Elway suggested in his last
interview with Vic & Gary. They don't all think like you, Cane . . .

-----

That's probably because I'm not like them nor would I want to be, Elway can believe what he wants (that doesn't make it true) ask old McDaniels about that. And I along with about three-quarters of the fandom could give a hoot less about Xander's opinion or that of Vic Lombardi or Gary Miller. Do you think any of it holds weight? Elway is idolized, don't mistake that for people thinking he thinks like a fan (the common people), that's what got McDaniels' ass in trouble, his belief that he knew it all only to enrage the fanbase beyond coherency.

[Clipworthy]

Look at who Orton has had as main target WR's.....

Brandon Marshall
Brandon Lloyd

what do they have in common? They have a knack of snagging any pass no matter the accuracy or the coverage around them

Orton's stats are a direct result of playing with a combination of very talented WR's and incredible amounts of "safe" short throws

Sometimes I want to reach through the TV when people talk about how good Orton has been and can be, only Bronco fans know the real Orton I guess. The Orton that can't move the chains when it matters.

[topscribe]

That's probably because I'm not like them nor would I want to be, Elway can believe what he wants (that doesn't make it true) ask old McDaniels about that. And I along with about three-quarters of the fandom could give a hoot less about Xander's opinion or that of Vic Lombardi or Gary Miller. Do you think any of it holds weight? Elway is idolized, don't mistake that for people thinking he thinks like a fan (the common people), that's what got McDaniels' ass in trouble, his belief that he knew it all only to enrage the fanbase beyond coherency.

Mmm . . . well, after 16 years of playing for them, I believe Elway pretty well
knows the fans. And the common fans want WINS. The common fans (sans
the Tebow groupies and sycophants) want Tebow right now because they
believe he can get them WINS. If the team gets WINS with Orton at the helm,
the fans will be solidly behind them, Orton and all. That is my opinion, borne of
50+ years of observing the fans . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Look at who Orton has had as main target WR's.....

Brandon Marshall
Brandon Lloyd

what do they have in common? They have a knack of snagging any pass no matter the accuracy or the coverage around them

Orton's stats are a direct result of playing with a combination of very talented WR's and incredible amounts of "safe" short throws

Sometimes I want to reach through the TV when people talk about how good Orton has been and can be, only Bronco fans know the real Orton I guess. The Orton that can't move the chains when it matters.

You are talking about your concept of the "real" Orton.

I have a different concept, and I have studied him far more thoroughly than
most Broncos fans . . . :coffee:

-----

[Clipworthy]

You are talking about your concept of the "real" Orton.

I have a different concept, and I have studied him far more thoroughly than
most Broncos fans . . . :coffee:

-----

you see, there isn't anything more to Orton. He's just "Orton"

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I believe the fandom will calm down with wins, as Elway suggested in his last
interview with Vic & Gary. They don't all think like you, Cane . . .

-----

I can't say that's fully true. Even if we win, if it's the same type of wins as early '09 where the offense was being bailed out and carried by the defense for the first six weeks, everyone will know that it's only a matter of time until we need the Orton-led offense to step up and win some games.

We all saw what happened the second half of the '09 season when that very thing happened. Then, we all got front row seats to last year's debacle where the offense had to carry the load and won a whopping 4 games.

As long as Tebow is a part of this team, Orton will never be accepted by the majority of the fans. It's just a fact. Fans would rather scrap this season, cut both Orton and Tebow, and draft Luck than be faced with the possibility of having Orton long term. Ludicrous? Maybe. Reality? Definitely.

It's just too late for Orton here. His future with the Broncos was decided the second the Broncos handed in their draft card with Tebow's name on it. The fans want Tebow. But more importantly, the want someone other than Orton. What I think you fail to understand is If Tebow suffered a devastating, career ending injury tomorrow, it wouldn't end the Orton controversy. A million "we've got to draft Luck" threads would start.

The majority of the fans just don't have faith in Orton. It's too late for redemption for him here. Neither the stats posted, nor even the talking heads on TV are going to change this fan base's mind on Orton being the "best chance to win". We all witnessed the horror of 59-14. We all saw the embarrassing QB play in the 2nd KC game and the complete meltdown that was Arizona game. Then we saw a rookie energize the team and make us more competitive than we'd been in two months. Tebow or not, Orton is done in Denver. It's only a matter of time.

If we by some miracle won the Superbowl this year, I have little doubt that Orton would be the second Superbowl winning QB that would be allowed to walk afterward...

[topscribe]

I can't say that's fully true. Even if we win, if it's the same type of wins as early '09 where the offense was being bailed out and carried by the defense for the first six weeks, everyone will know that it's only a matter of time until we need the Orton-led offense to step up and win some games.

We all saw what happened the second half of the '09 season when that very thing happened. Then, we all got front row seats to last year's debacle where the offense had to carry the load and won a whopping 4 games.

As long as Tebow is a part of this team, Orton will never be accepted by the majority of the fans. It's just a fact. Fans would rather scrap this season, cut both Orton and Tebow, and draft Luck than be faced with the possibility of having Orton long term. Ludicrous? Maybe. Reality? Definitely.

It's just too late for Orton here. His future with the Broncos was decided the second the Broncos handed in their draft card with Tebow's name on it. The fans want Tebow. But more importantly, the want someone other than Orton. What I think you fail to understand is If Tebow suffered a devastating, career ending injury tomorrow, it wouldn't end the Orton controversy. A million "we've got to draft Luck" threads would start.

The majority of the fans just don't have faith in Orton. It's too late for redemption for him here. Neither the stats posted, nor even the talking heads on TV are going to change this fan base's mind on Orton being the "best chance to win". We all witnessed the horror of 59-14. We all saw the embarrassing QB play in the 2nd KC game and the complete meltdown that was Arizona game. Then we saw a rookie energize the team and make us more competitive than we'd been in two months. Tebow or not, Orton is done in Denver. It's only a matter of time.

If we by some miracle won the Superbowl this year, I have little doubt that Orton would be the second Superbowl winning QB that would be allowed to walk afterward...

If the Broncos win with Orton, the true fans will be very happy. The true fans
are fans of the team. No player is bigger than the team. That is the way it
has always been, and that is the way it will always be.

Gramted, the Tebow groupies, sycophants, and idolizers will cry in their beer,
no matter what. So be it. Who cares? Bye.


P.S. If the Broncos win with Tebow, it will be the same for the team and the
true fans . . .

. . . or Quinn . . .

-----

[Lancane]

Mmm . . . well, after 16 years of playing for them, I believe Elway pretty well
knows the fans. And the common fans want WINS. The common fans (sans
the Tebow groupies and sycophants) want Tebow right now because they
believe he can get them WINS. If the team gets WINS with Orton at the helm,
the fans will be solidly behind them, Orton and all. That is my opinion, borne of
50+ years of observing the fans . . .

-----

Did you really forget Jake Plummer and what happened in the end that quickly?

You're wrong Top, talk with the fans...not just on here, on other boards on social networks, hell read what's stated on newspaper sites and other sports media sites. Heck, when I was in Europe and Japan I met Broncos' fans and all had opinions on this subject or that.

So you believe that after playing for a little over a decade and a half gives you insight into how the minds of the fans work? And you're old school Top, we've talked about this a time or two, remember what I told you before we drafted Cutler? I told you that the fans will never be happy going through changes, they want long-term - do you think Morton is more beloved then Elway? Do you believe that even if Elway never won a championship that people would have ever said they would prefer Craig over John? The difference is that for well over a decade Elway was the cornerstone of the franchise, the face and we continually won and were always considered a threat, a team to challenge for the conference. That's what the fans want, they want another decade or two of being able to challenge the best of them on any given Sunday...Orton will never be that, he's seven years too late and lacks the tangibles, Quinn has a better chance of becoming that kind of quarterback.

Jake Plummer led us to the AFC Championship game, that off-season the fans wanted change, a true quarterback and we got one only to see him traded and now you're surprised that we want another?

Mmmmkay....

P.S. Lay off the true fan shit...it's getting old, seriously. - Thanks.

[topscribe]

Did you really forget Jake Plummer and what happened in the end that quickly?

You're wrong Top, talk with the fans...not just on here, on other boards on social networks, hell read what's stated on newspaper sites and other sports media sites. Heck, when I was in Europe and Japan I met Broncos' fans and all had opinions on this subject or that.

So you believe that after playing for a little over a decade and a half gives you insight into how the minds of the fans work? And you're old school Top, we've talked about this a time or two, remember what I told you before we drafted Cutler? I told you that the fans will never be happy going through changes, they want long-term - do you think Morton is more beloved then Elway? Do you believe that even if Elway never won a championship that people would have ever said they would prefer Craig over John? The difference is that for well over a decade Elway was the cornerstone of the franchise, the face and we continually won and were always considered a threat, a team to challenge for the conference. That's what the fans want, they want another decade or two of being able to challenge the best of them on any given Sunday...Orton will never be that, he's seven years to late, Quinn has a better chance of becoming that kind of quarterback.

Jake Plummer led us to the AFC Championship game, that off-season the fans wanted change, a true quarterback and we got one only to see him traded and now you're surprised that we want another?

Mmmmkay....

P.S. Lay off the true fan shit...it's getting old, seriously. - Thanks.

The true fans will root for the Broncos, and all the players involved, if the
team wins. Fact. Bottom line. I say it. Elway said it. We are not like you,
having hated Orton since before he ever played a down for the Broncos.

Trust me: The true fan will support the team and every player involved if the
team just wins.

And if you were there with me on 9 Sept 1960 for the first game the Broncos
ever played, THEN tell me to knock the "true fan shit" off. Otherwise, you
have NOTHING to say to me about that. :coffee:

-----

[Lancane]

True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan
True fan

Very mature... :coffee:

[Lancane]

The true fans will root for the Broncos, and all the players involved, if the
team wins. Fact. Bottom line. I say it. Elway said it. We are not like you,
having hated Orton since before he ever played a down for the Broncos.

Trust me: The true fan will support the team and every player involved if the
team just wins.

And if you were there with me on 9 Sept 1960 for the first game the Broncos
ever played, THEN tell me to knock the "true fan shit" off. Otherwise, you
have NOTHING to say to me about that. :coffee:

-----

Elway is a socialite he'll never be down with the aspects of the fans, hell Bowlen wasn't even in sync with the fans until it nearly cost him fiscally. And fans can be pro-team and anti-player, that has been proven time and again...and you want to slight me because I wasn't born yet? Age has nothing to do with being a real fan, good way to alienate yourself though...I guess anyone not of the 60's and 70's aren't true fans...so the majority of the fanbase that exists today.

:coffee:

[Lancane]

And now you can tell me what "mature" is.

Right.

-----

No, but I will tell you as a friend that you're being a jackass!

We've had our fair share of disagreements but at least you always handled yourself better then this. Believe what you want, but the way you are acting isn't mature, it's not even respectable. Are you more upset that I disagree or the fact that there is a very high probability that I'm dead on in my assessment of the fans and their opinion of Orton? Maybe you've defended him for so long, just as you did Plummer that you are indeed worn out defending what you believe?

Never in all the years we've disagreed have you acted this way...:beer:

[topscribe]

Elway is a socialite he'll never be down with the aspects of the fans, hell Bowlen wasn't even in sync with the fans until it nearly cost him fiscally. And fans can be pro-team and anti-player, that has been proven time and again...and you want to slight me because I wasn't born yet? Age has nothing to do with being a real fan, good way to alienate yourself though...I guess anyone not of the 60's and 70's aren't true fans...so the majority of the fanbase that exists today.

:coffee:

You did not seem to understand what I am writing. YOU told ME to knock the
"TRUE FAN" stuff off. Well, if you didn't go through those first 14 years before
the Broncos EVER had a winning season, YOU have no basis to tell me to
knock the "TRUE FAN" stuff off. I was one of those fans who hung onto a
LOSING team all that time.

TRUE FAN! :coffee:

-----

[Lancane]

You talking about alienation? You are alienating yourself from ME.

Especially when you cannot seem to understand what I am writing. YOU told ME
to knock the "TRUE FAN" stuff off. Well, shove it! If you didn't go through those
first 14 years before the Broncos EVER had a winning season, YOU have no
basis to tell me to knock the "TRUE FAN" stuff off. I was one of those fans
who hung onto a LOSING team all that time.

So you think I'm worried about "alienating" myself on a football message board?

TRUE FAN! :coffee:

-----

I haven't done shit but asked you to please knock off the true fan shit, and did I ever once say you gave a damn whether or not you're alienating yourself on the board? And how have I alienated myself from you? Because I see it differently? Because my point of view differs from yours and is shared more openly on here?

Do me a favor and sleep it off, whatever in the hell it is...

[topscribe]

I haven't done shit but asked you to please knock off the true fan shit, and did I ever once say you gave a damn whether or not you're alienating yourself on the board? And how have I alienated myself from you? Because I see it differently? Because my point of view differs from yours and is shared more openly on here?

Do me a favor and sleep it off, whatever in the hell it is...

I don't mind if you disagree with me. You ought to know that.

It's the PERSONAL stuff I don't like.

I'm out of here . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

He will have to avoid being benched I believe as well. He's taking a big risk because he's never been healthy for a full season in his career IIRC.

Of he banks half of his money this year he could retire. I'm guessing that he will play good enough this coming year to get a starting gig somewhere. And even if it is not huge money he will be ahead of where he would have been had he taken the Mia offer.

I can tell that lots of folks will benoissed at him for nit getting us a 2nd rounder and a starting DT. Like they were at Jake cause he retired and "gypped" out if a daft choice from tpa.

How he was selfish. And did not care about the broncos.

[Ravage!!!]

I see. So if we weren't born during those years, we aren't "true fans." Makes sense :coffee:

[TXBRONC]

I don't mind if you disagree with me. You ought to know that.

It's the PERSONAL stuff I don't like.

I'm out of here . . .

-----

You should take your own advice about the personal stuff.

[BeefStew25]

I see. So if we weren't born during those years, we aren't "true fans." Makes sense :coffee:

Give Top a break. He fought in the Crusades.

[BroncoStud]

The true fans will root for the Broncos, and all the players involved, if the
team wins. Fact. Bottom line. I say it. Elway said it. We are not like you,
having hated Orton since before he ever played a down for the Broncos.

Trust me: The true fan will support the team and every player involved if the
team just wins.

And if you were there with me on 9 Sept 1960 for the first game the Broncos
ever played, THEN tell me to knock the "true fan shit" off. Otherwise, you
have NOTHING to say to me about that. :coffee:

-----

You being older than us TOP and going to the first Broncos game gives you ZERO right to call yourself a "true" fan and the rest of us not.

You have said yourself that if Orton went to Arizona then you would also be an Arizona fan, so I think you are more of an Orton fan than anything else right now. You always throw in there that you just want the Broncos to win, whether it be with Orton, Tebow, or even Quinn, but you NEVER say anything positive about anyone other than Orton, who you defend to the dying breath despite his obvious lack of ability.

I'm as much a "true fan" as you are, and most of the members of this board are as well. Being "true fans" we've seen what REAL and GOOD QB looks like, and what we've seen from Orton is far from it. Us "true fans" just want the mistake McDaniels made bringing him in here in the first place remedied and to move on with a "true QB"...

[topscribe]

You should take your own advice about the personal stuff.

And you should stay out of a quibble between friends.

-----

[TXBRONC]

And you should stay out of a quibble between friends.

-----

Then take it elsewhere.

Besides that I thought you were out of here.

[BeefStew25]

And you should stay out of a quibble between friends.

-----

Don't talk to my friend that way.

[Ravage!!!]

top gets caught up in defending the "lil guy" at QB. He was the same way with Plummer...and thought I was completely wrong when I labeled him a "place-holder QB." He's the crusader of the unwanted signal caller.

[TXBRONC]

Don't talk to my friend that way.

You're alright Beef.

[topscribe]

You being older than us TOP and going to the first Broncos game gives you ZERO right to call yourself a "true" fan and the rest of us not.

You have said yourself that if Orton went to Arizona then you would also be an Arizona fan, so I think you are more of an Orton fan than anything else right now. You always throw in there that you just want the Broncos to win, whether it be with Orton, Tebow, or even Quinn, but you NEVER say anything positive about anyone other than Orton, who you defend to the dying breath despite his obvious lack of ability.

I'm as much a "true fan" as you are, and most of the members of this board are as well. Being "true fans" we've seen what REAL and GOOD QB looks like, and what we've seen from Orton is far from it. Us "true fans" just want the mistake McDaniels made bringing him in here in the first place remedied and to move on with a "true QB"...

I said NOTHING about you. NOTHING at all. I was referring to his telling me to
knock off the "true fan" stuff. My response was ONLY that, if one has gone
through those 14 losing seasons with me, THEN one can tell me to knock off
the "true fan" stuff. I was referring to that, and ONLY to that. NOTHING else.


P.S. Your garbage about my never saying anything positive about anyone
else, and your implication that I would change my allegiance, is a brazen lie.
But that's not anything new, either . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

I keep playing the 'lone ranger' theme song in my head.

[TXBRONC]

I keep playing the 'lone ranger' theme song in my head.

Really? I keep playing "The Song That Never Ends" in my head. :shocked:

[BeefStew25]

You're alright Beef.

Just stand behind me and when things kick off, grab the lead pipe in my trunk.

[Ravage!!!]

Really? I keep playing "The Song That Never Ends" in my head. :shocked:

:lol: :lol: :salute:

[topscribe]

Then take it elsewhere.

Besides that I thought you were out of here.

Please quit with your double standard and stop playing mod.

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Its about time we see the "why am I the topic of the thread again" cry.

[BeefStew25]

Shit Davii is here. Clear out!

[TXBRONC]

Shit Davii is here. Clear out!

There is nothing to fear. :salute:

[Chidoze]

I think Orton really believes teams will be breaking down his door next year willing to pay him big time starter money.
You never know, there will be at lest 1 or 2 that may get into a bidding war.

Look at what happened to Kevin Kolb, he's accomplished less than Orton and the Cardinals went into 5th gear to aquire him. No guarantee that Kolb will be a success there either.

[Stargazer]

You never know, there will be at lest 1 or 2 that may get into a bidding war.

Look at what happened to Kevin Kolb, he's accomplished less than Orton and the Cardinals went into 5th gear to aquire him. No guarantee that Kolb will be a success there either.

But, he eliminates another team. Looking around the league, teams are littered with QB's and another draft will be coming along.

While there may be 1-2 teams, Orton hits 29 in November. And if a team brings Orton in, there will be a young QB behind him again. Orton is going to have a tough time finding $9 million a year. Only way is to play lights out & advance deep into the playoffs this year.

[Ravage!!!]

But, he eliminates another team. Looking around the league, teams are littered with QB's and another draft will be coming along.

While there may be 1-2 teams, Orton hits 29 in November. And if a team brings Orton in, there will be a young QB behind him again. Orton is going to have a tough time finding $9 million a year. Only way is to play lights out & advance deep into the playoffs this year.

which is why he wanted to keep his 9 million this year, and a long term deal. He knows that he most likely will not get a long-term deal as a starter. Needs to try to get it while he can, and not get less than he's already guaranteed.

[Stargazer]

which is why he wanted to keep his 9 million this year, and a long term deal. He knows that he most likely will not get a long-term deal as a starter. Needs to try to get it while he can, and not get less than he's already guaranteed.

Yes, hence why he was there 1st day of camp. $9 million is nothing to sneeze at. Might be his last huge 1 year deal.

[Chidoze]

But, he eliminates another team. Looking around the league, teams are littered with QB's and another draft will be coming along.

While there may be 1-2 teams, Orton hits 29 in November. And if a team brings Orton in, there will be a young QB behind him again. Orton is going to have a tough time finding $9 million a year. Only way is to play lights out & advance deep into the playoffs this year.
This is true also. Never underestimate chance though. There's always a chance for everything.

Orton may go to a team as a free agent next year on a 1 year contract and throw for 30 touchdowns and 4000 yards and get a 4 year 50 million contract extension making 9.5 million the first year of the contract.

Unlikely, but it's not impossible.

[Chidoze]

I'm not trying to defend Orton or say we should keep him like he's the long term answer, I'm just saying there may be more suitors for him than we think but dont want to give up what the Broncos are asking.

I'd rather be rid of him, but I also want the Broncos to be contenders.

[Lonestar]

Why are you assuming Kyle will win? What has he done to evidence that here in Denver? Games are won on 3rd down and in the redzone, his 2 biggest weaknesses, along with his overall lack of athleticism.

I'm guessing you believe that Orton was the oNLY guy on the field on third down and in the redzone..

I'll just bet you missed the other 10 players out there on the team.. Just maybe they had something to do with OUR TEAM showing 3rd downs and in the redzone..

BTW we have stunk it up in the redzone since John TD SHarpe and that great SUper bowl OL retired..

Not sure why all of a sudden you have a short memory about that..

[Lonestar]

Look at who Orton has had as main target WR's.....

Brandon Marshall
Brandon Lloyd

what do they have in common? They have a knack of snagging any pass no matter the accuracy or the coverage around them

Orton's stats are a direct result of playing with a combination of very talented WR's and incredible amounts of "safe" short throws

Sometimes I want to reach through the TV when people talk about how good Orton has been and can be, only Bronco fans know the real Orton I guess. The Orton that can't move the chains when it matters.

I'm guessing you missed that stat that Orton was leading the league in long balls last year when he went down with the rib injury.. unlike his first year here with BM..

[MOtorboat]

I'm guessing you believe that Orton was the oNLY guy on the field on third down and in the redzone..

I'll just bet you missed the other 10 players out there on the team.. Just maybe they had something to do with OUR TEAM showing 3rd downs and in the redzone..

BTW we have stunk it up in the redzone since John TD SHarpe and that great SUper bowl OL retired..

Not sure why all of a sudden you have a short memory about that..

Nope, pretty much Orton's incompetency in third down and late game situations was the problem. One time is a problem, two times is a concern, a whole season is a pattern.

They haven't stunk it up in the red zone since the Super Bowl years. That's your very poor memory and your unhealthy tirade against Shanahan speaking. The only short memory is yours, apparently.

[Lonestar]

Mmm . . . well, after 16 years of playing for them, I believe Elway pretty well
knows the fans. And the common fans want WINS. The common fans (sans
the Tebow groupies and sycophants) want Tebow right now because they
believe he can get them WINS. If the team gets WINS with Orton at the helm,
the fans will be solidly behind them, Orton and all. That is my opinion, borne of
50+ years of observing the fans . . .

-----


Nope, pretty much Orton's incompetency in third down and late game situations was the problem. One time is a problem, two times is a concern, a whole season is a pattern.

They haven't stunk it up in the red zone since the Super Bowl years. That's your very poor memory and your unhealthy tirade against Shanahan speaking. The only short memory is yours, apparently.

Hey every year in his end of year pressers mikey always stated we have to get better in the redzone, that was a weakness .. (from the mouths of babes) they used to be on the broncos web site but have been removed.

That was one of the reasons I started to lose my faith in mikey. I heard it one year it sounded familiar, so I went back to and listened to the few years before it and they were almost identical word for word..

Save two years I can remember with MIke the marine and Mike bell inisde the 5 we have been pretty pathetic..


Just how did Elam become the king of short FG's Under 40 yards if we were so good in the red zone..

I seem to recall when he left the Broncos he was one of the all time points leader in the NFL.. Did not get that from kicking pats..

those are the facts as I remember them.. I think lots of other folks will recall it also.

[Lonestar]

Nope, pretty much Orton's incompetency in third down and late game situations was the problem. One time is a problem, two times is a concern, a whole season is a pattern.

.

forgot to address this part .

in which game did we have our starting OLINE in place and healthy

when did moreno get healthy about the same time Orton went down with the RIB injury..

Hard to pick up third downs without an OL or a running game..

Tebow had all of those things in place and pretty much hitting on all cylinders, when he went in..

I'll tell y'all what Lets talk about this again later in the season and see who was right..

PS, OH forgot to add the DEFENSE SUCKED

[robert ethan]

Orton is absolutely worth a second and a starter. Which is more than Kolb fetched, but Orton is the better quarterback, and always will be. But all three of the Broncos QBs are capable of starting in the league and any one of them could be the one traded. As I said WAY BACK when.

[broncobryce]

Nobody will pay shit for quinn and tebow is not for sale. You do the math

[bcbronc]

Orton is absolutely worth a second and a starter. Which is more than Kolb fetched, but Orton is the better quarterback, and always will be. But all three of the Broncos QBs are capable of starting in the league and any one of them could be the one traded. As I said WAY BACK when.

and yet every other team has already filled their QB spot (except maybe Wash--but they've got 5 QBs on their roster, maybe Cinci--but they're better off giving the reins to Andy Dalton to close out the season to see if they need to take a QB in the Draft of the QB).

I dunno, if Orton was actually the better QB, you'd think some other team would have found a way to get a deal done. Problem is, too much game film on Orton with real bullets flying.

I will say this though, last year Orton did noticeably improve his long ball. If he can take the same kind of step in his release/assertive decision making it would go a long ways towards improving his 3rd down % and RDZ. If not, maybe Orton becomes a two-down, between-the-20s QB, and we ease Tebow in this way. If both bought in, their strengths/weaknesses are quite complementary.

[Juriga72]

forgot to address this part .

in which game did we have our starting OLINE in place and healthy

when did moreno get healthy about the same time Orton went down with the RIB injury..

Hard to pick up third downs without an OL or a running game..

Tebow had all of those things in place and pretty much hitting on all cylinders, when he went in..

I'll tell y'all what Lets talk about this again later in the season and see who was right..

PS, OH forgot to add the DEFENSE SUCKED

Ok... I'll bite on this one...

So Kyle struggles on third downs for the 5th time in his 6 year career, and its "He has no running game"

Kinda how like his 3rd down qbr is BETTER when its 3rd and MORE than 6 yards to go and then its "He was in 3rd and LONG all year...give him a break"

When a career qb rating is 60.8 on 3rd down.... that just means he sucks on third downs. Heck... Its nice to know that the running game and blocking only fail on third downs ever. THAT shoud be a easy fix right? "Ok...today we are going to work on our Third downs... We cant run or block ONLY on third downs...SO EVERY snap today will be called third down"

[BroncoStud]

I'm guessing you believe that Orton was the oNLY guy on the field on third down and in the redzone..

I'll just bet you missed the other 10 players out there on the team.. Just maybe they had something to do with OUR TEAM showing 3rd downs and in the redzone..

BTW we have stunk it up in the redzone since John TD SHarpe and that great SUper bowl OL retired..

Not sure why all of a sudden you have a short memory about that..

Jay Cutler converted 47.5% of his 3rd downs in 2008 with this team.

Kyle Orton converted 36% of his 3rd downs in 2009 with this team, same players, same rushing output as an offense.

Kyle Orton converted 31% of his 3rd downs in 2010 with this team...

3rd downs, you know, the most important down in football? 11% dropoff in 1 season, with the same personnel and nearly identical rushing production? Then a staggering 15% dropoff by the end of the 2nd year...

Oh, by the way, Cutler just took Orton's old team to the NFC Championship, and Orton took Cutler's old team to the 2nd overall draft pick...

It must get tiring having to make excuse after excuse to defend such mediocre play from the QB position. I will be popping and chugging the bubbly the day that Kyle Orton is no longer a Denver Bronco. What a joke this whole situation has become.

[BroncoStud]

I said NOTHING about you. NOTHING at all. I was referring to his telling me to
knock off the "true fan" stuff. My response was ONLY that, if one has gone
through those 14 losing seasons with me, THEN one can tell me to knock off
the "true fan" stuff. I was referring to that, and ONLY to that. NOTHING else.


P.S. Your garbage about my never saying anything positive about anyone
else, and your implication that I would change my allegiance, is a brazen lie.
But that's not anything new, either . . .

-----

1.) I can't recall ANYTHING positive you've said about Tebow or Quinn.

2.) You did post that if Orton went to Arizona they would be your 2nd favorite team.

I'm not going to dig up the thread but it happened dude, it happened.

:laugh::laugh:

[Dean]

I can't say that's fully true. Even if we win, if it's the same type of wins as early '09 where the offense was being bailed out and carried by the defense for the first six weeks, everyone will know that it's only a matter of time until we need the Orton-led offense to step up and win some games.

We all saw what happened the second half of the '09 season when that very thing happened. Then, we all got front row seats to last year's debacle where the offense had to carry the load and won a whopping 4 games.

As long as Tebow is a part of this team, Orton will never be accepted by the majority of the fans. It's just a fact. Fans would rather scrap this season, cut both Orton and Tebow, and draft Luck than be faced with the possibility of having Orton long term. Ludicrous? Maybe. Reality? Definitely.

It's just too late for Orton here. His future with the Broncos was decided the second the Broncos handed in their draft card with Tebow's name on it. The fans want Tebow. But more importantly, the want someone other than Orton. What I think you fail to understand is If Tebow suffered a devastating, career ending injury tomorrow, it wouldn't end the Orton controversy. A million "we've got to draft Luck" threads would start.

The majority of the fans just don't have faith in Orton. It's too late for redemption for him here. Neither the stats posted, nor even the talking heads on TV are going to change this fan base's mind on Orton being the "best chance to win". We all witnessed the horror of 59-14. We all saw the embarrassing QB play in the 2nd KC game and the complete meltdown that was Arizona game. Then we saw a rookie energize the team and make us more competitive than we'd been in two months. Tebow or not, Orton is done in Denver. It's only a matter of time.

If we by some miracle won the Superbowl this year, I have little doubt that Orton would be the second Superbowl winning QB that would be allowed to walk afterward...

Those old enough to think back to the Elway era have seen this before. A huge number of Bronco fans in the early and mid '90ies believed that Elway couldn't win the big one and were pushing for a new QB. However, after the late 90ies, he was deified. Like Top has opinionated, I believe winning would result in forgiveness in the eyes of the fans.

[Juriga72]

Jay Cutler converted 47.5% of his 3rd downs in 2008 with this team.

Kyle Orton converted 36% of his 3rd downs in 2009 with this team, same players, same rushing output as an offense.

Kyle Orton converted 31% of his 3rd downs in 2010 with this team...

3rd downs, you know, the most important down in football? 11% dropoff in 1 season, with the same personnel and nearly identical rushing production? Then a staggering 15% dropoff by the end of the 2nd year...

Oh, by the way, Cutler just took Orton's old team to the NFC Championship, and Orton took Cutler's old team to the 2nd overall draft pick...

It must get tiring having to make excuse after excuse to defend such mediocre play from the QB position. I will be popping and chugging the bubbly the day that Kyle Orton is no longer a Denver Bronco. What a joke this whole situation has become.


Of course The old "Orton Fan Club" also thinks stats are useless unless "You can show Kyle is great"

Well..... Here's also some stats showing the "Greatness of Kyle Orton"
97
96
78
89

Dead nuts on 90 punts/year.... WHere does this place Kyle Orton for the NFL???
Well.... LAST year he was top 5 in "Most punts led too"

[Juriga72]

Those old enough to think back to the Elway era have seen this before. A huge number of Bronco fans in the early and mid '90ies believed that Elway couldn't win the big one and were pushing for a new QB. However, after the late 90ies, he was deified. Like Top has opinionated, I believe winning would result in forgiveness in the eyes of the fans.

Yes... I too would rather lose in the Super Bowl than go 4-12.

I too would also like to do better than 5-21 for a 26 game stretch.

[BroncoStud]

Those old enough to think back to the Elway era have seen this before. A huge number of Bronco fans in the early and mid '90ies believed that Elway couldn't win the big one and were pushing for a new QB. However, after the late 90ies, he was deified. Like Top has opinionated, I believe winning would result in forgiveness in the eyes of the fans.

Those of us with brains knew that Elway was a likely Hall of Famer by 1986. I thought that Dan Reeves should have been fired on the SPOT for drafting Touchdown Tommy Mad-SUX.

[SOCALORADO.]

Those of us with brains knew that Elway was a likely Hall of Famer by 1986. I thought that Dan Reeves should have been fired on the SPOT for drafting Touchdown Tommy Mad-SUX.

Yeah, i dont ever recall a large number of fans demanding Elway be traded to WASH. Maybe a few nuts, but not a large number.

[broncobryce]

Anyone comparing orton to elway is just nuts, period, and should be banned for life!


Just kidding about the ban of course

[Superchop 7]

Orton is a reminder of Josh's dumbest out of many dumb moves......as a fan.....I don't need the reminder. Is Tebow the answer? Well based on training camp he looks fourth string to me.....but.....he has a game mentality that I can't discount. IMO the best way to know if he will develop into a cornerstone is to play him.....if he has an ok season then we are fine....if not.....we are still fine because we know what we have to do.

[topscribe]

Jay Cutler converted 47.5% of his 3rd downs in 2008 with this team.

Kyle Orton converted 36% of his 3rd downs in 2009 with this team, same players, same rushing output as an offense.

Kyle Orton converted 31% of his 3rd downs in 2010 with this team...

3rd downs, you know, the most important down in football? 11% dropoff in 1 season, with the same personnel and nearly identical rushing production? Then a staggering 15% dropoff by the end of the 2nd year...

Oh, by the way, Cutler just took Orton's old team to the NFC Championship, and Orton took Cutler's old team to the 2nd overall draft pick...

It must get tiring having to make excuse after excuse to defend such mediocre play from the QB position. I will be popping and chugging the bubbly the day that Kyle Orton is no longer a Denver Bronco. What a joke this whole situation has become.

If you're so tired of it, why do you keep responding to it?

This has been answered time and again, many times by me. You think you
know so much about football, but you either don't know enough to
understand the variables that affect a situation or you conveniently ignore
them to advance your skewed point.

Best you just hang it up and take a rest since you're so tired . . .



1.) I can't recall ANYTHING positive you've said about Tebow or Quinn.

2.) You did post that if Orton went to Arizona they would be your 2nd favorite team.

I'm not going to dig up the thread but it happened dude, it happened.

:laugh::laugh:

You probably could have done just as well by placing your period behind
"ANYTHING" and left it at that.

But the way you twist and skew my words, there is no sense in discussing
anything with you. So I won't.

-----

[BroncoStud]

If you're so tired of it, why do you keep responding to it?

This has been answered time and again, many times by me. You think you
know so much about football, but you either don't know enough to
understand the variables that affect a situation or you conveniently ignore
them to advance your skewed point.

Best you just hang it up and take a rest since you're so tired . . .




You probably could have done just as well by placing your period behind
"ANYTHING" and left it at that.

But the way you twist and skew my words, there is no sense in discussing
anything with you. So I won't.

-----

I don't need "excuses" or "reasons"... It's merely FACT.

Cutler converted 47.5% of his 3rd downs in 2008 with one of the worst defenses in franchise history "helping him out"...

Orton converted 36%, then 31% in subsequent seasons. That's just FACT. You can cite ribs, ankles, coaching, etc, etc...

In fact, the rushing numbers from Cutler's last season here and Orton's first season here are damn near identical, and they had essentially the SAME personnel. And over in New England, Mr. Brady didn't have any issue converting 3rd downs in Joshies system.

So once again, all I do is state FACT here.

Clearly Orton isn't 100% to blame for the 3rd down woes but he certainly is a major part of it.

[Lonestar]

I don't need "excuses" or "reasons"... It's merely FACT.

Cutler converted 47.5% of his 3rd downs in 2008 with one of the worst defenses in franchise history "helping him out"...

Orton converted 36%, then 31% in subsequent seasons. That's just FACT. You can cite ribs, ankles, coaching, etc, etc...

In fact, the rushing numbers from Cutler's last season here and Orton's first season here are damn near identical, and they had essentially the SAME personnel. And over in New England, Mr. Brady didn't have any issue converting 3rd downs in Joshies system.

So once again, all I do is state FACT here.

Clearly Orton isn't 100% to blame for the 3rd down woes but he certainly is a major part of it.

you forgot to add IYO..

[Lancane]

Those old enough to think back to the Elway era have seen this before. A huge number of Bronco fans in the early and mid '90ies believed that Elway couldn't win the big one and were pushing for a new QB. However, after the late 90ies, he was deified. Like Top has opinionated, I believe winning would result in forgiveness in the eyes of the fans.

Dean, there is a big difference...Elway was elite (and was a real winning quarterback) and had long proven as much, he could carry the team to victory if need be, something that Orton can not do. Orton has not won or earned one accolade that Elway had in his respective career...might as well compare Leaf to Rivers.

[broncobryce]

Orton is a reminder of Josh's dumbest out of many dumb moves......as a fan.....I don't need the reminder. Is Tebow the answer? Well based on training camp he looks fourth string to me.....but.....he has a game mentality that I can't discount. IMO the best way to know if he will develop into a cornerstone is to play him.....if he has an ok season then we are fine....if not.....we are still fine because we know what we have to do.

Did you go to camp?