Remember when we were going to draft a QB?

[broncobryce]

This reminds me of when Elway was making people believe Denver was going to draft a QB, and people were going nuts.

Elway is doing everything he can to keep Orton's trade value as high as possible IMO, nothing else.

I still think he gets moved, most likely before the season starts.

[BroncoStud]

Man I hope you're right. Especially since he's stealing critical reps in practice right now.

[NightTerror218]

Elway said he was going to look at every position no matter what....I never though he was going to draft a QB, but at least look at them.....looking at them would help evaluate what he has on the team already.

[rationalfan]

i'm not an orton lover, but how could anyone be eager for him to leave when every report from camp says he's MUCH better than tebow? Even Quinn is getting more favorable reviews.

reminds me of the old adage; be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

[Lancane]

i'm not an orton lover, but how could anyone be eager for him to leave when every report from camp says he's MUCH better than tebow? Even Quinn is getting more favorable reviews.

reminds me of the old adage; be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

Then I'll keep on wishing, fervently!

[broncobryce]

i'm not an orton lover, but how could anyone be eager for him to leave when every report from camp says he's MUCH better than tebow? Even Quinn is getting more favorable reviews.

reminds me of the old adage; be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

That's just it though, from camp. I watched every game the last 2 seasons with Orton and the 3 games with Tebow. I'm assuming you did too.

Orton looked great in camp last season too. Then in the games he still is what he is. Not good enough to be the future.
We need to start Tebow, period, and we will.

[SOCALORADO.]

i'm not an orton lover, but how could anyone be eager for him to leave when every report from camp says he's MUCH better than tebow? Even Quinn is getting more favorable reviews.

reminds me of the old adage; be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

This does not make any sense. I already know what i am getting with Orton. A QB who cant win games in the 4th qtr, folds like a wet paper towel under the most miniscule pressure, and will be a FA after the season. Looks awesome in camp drills though.
I am eager for him to leave. DEN isnt going to the playoffs this year with Orton, and he will be surely gone after the season is over, so i dont need to be careful.
I wish for TT to start, so we can see what we got, and if TT sucks, we can draft Luck or Barkley and make TT an H-back. If TT is the next Steve Young so be it, and we keep him. Thats what i wish for.

[G_Money]

It all depends on whether Tebow is the sort of player who will learn enough from the bench to make having Orton as the starter for most of the year worthwhile.

It obviously didn't hurt a certain Green Bay QB to sit for a while, but he's a bit more cerebral a QB than Tebow.

But the problem comes at the end of the season when, since Orton has been running first-team with all the reps and Tebow is backing him up with lesser 2nd team reps, Orton will STILL be a better practice QB.

Do you re-sign him at that point because, well, he's obviously better than Tebow?

Is Orton your plan, your stopgap, or your hurdle in the way of progress?

If he's your plan, then sit Tebow or Quinn behind him and let him do his thing, such as it is. I don't think many would argue that Orton is the Broncos long-term plan.

Is he your stopgap? Is Tebow not ready yet but might be after another year to watch and prepare, or do you want to draft a 1st round QB next year and there's no sense in having Tebow around as the starter when that happens? That's a different scenario.

Or is Orton just in the way of figuring out if Tebow is The Man or The Flop?

For me, I'd rather Tebow get a ton of reps, and a lot of games, because if he's NOT the man then fans need to see it, coaches need to see it, and players need to see it sooner rather than later. So that when we draft a QB, trade Tebow to some team in the SEC fanbase area for a 7th rounder, and go in a different direction next year everyone knows why.

Or so that when Tebow DOES succeed we can get this rebuilding phase over with ASAP and get on to winning games. Whether he succeeds or fails, we don't waste 3 or 4 years in the Tebow Era flailing about when we could be winning something either with Tebow or with a different QB.

Orton's holding up the rebuild. If we know that and that's part of the plan, to have an average NFL QB running the team while we get our feet under us with the new regime, in a year with VERY little offseason contact to adapt...okay.

If we just don't have the balls to commit to anything so we're hedging our bets about the QB situation...that's less okay.

~G

[Ravage!!!]

i'm not an orton lover, but how could anyone be eager for him to leave when every report from camp says he's MUCH better than tebow? Even Quinn is getting more favorable reviews.

reminds me of the old adage; be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

Because we are a 5 win team WITh Orton. Who cares if we are onlly a 4 win team without him? Do you REALLY think we are a good team? Whats the gain in starting Orton over Tebow? Do you honestly feel we are a playoff caliber team?

If "wishing" would get me what I want, then I'll wish more and more that Orton is traded away... HOPING that I get what I wish for.

[NightTerror218]

i'm not an orton lover, but how could anyone be eager for him to leave when every report from camp says he's MUCH better than tebow? Even Quinn is getting more favorable reviews.

reminds me of the old adage; be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

That is practice with no pressure....I heard yesterdays camp had pressure on QBs and Orton folded with interceptions and bad throws and Tebow had 1st downs and TDs.....depends who you hear from

[underrated29]

Here is the thing for me. No matter what I see in TC or hear about any of the Qbs, team, defense or anything else. I always hear in my head the one Ultimate final denominator.


I know, with Tim Tebow that we have a Chance to win any game against any team no matter what!!! I know this for a fact.


I also know that with Kyle we do not.





I LOVE/CRAVE/MISS THE DAYS I COULD BE EXCITED FOR ANYTEAM (colts, ravens, packers, steelers etc) TO GO AGAINST, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT WE HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN BECAUSE OF ONE GUY.

[Ravage!!!]

Well... I don't feel that Tebow gives us a chance to win.. no matter what. Because he certainly has NOT earned that kind of respect yet. But I would rather find out if he does deserve it.

[SOCALORADO.]

Well... I don't feel that Tebow gives us a chance to win.. no matter what. Because he certainly has NOT earned that kind of respect yet. But I would rather find out if he does deserve it.

Ding! Ding!
Winner! We have a winner!

[NightTerror218]

Well... I don't feel that Tebow gives us a chance to win.. no matter what. Because he certainly has NOT earned that kind of respect yet. But I would rather find out if he does deserve it.

We went against the #1 defense in league and almost pulled out a win....what does that say about Tebow?

[underrated29]

Well... I don't feel that Tebow gives us a chance to win.. no matter what. Because he certainly has NOT earned that kind of respect yet. But I would rather find out if he does deserve it.



iwouldnt say it as a respect thing. Because you are right he has not. I just mean that no defense can really scheme for him. When we actually let him do his thing, instead of playing it safe and pocket passing etc, he kicks some good ass.

He gives defenses nightmares. Which is why i still think that after one or two preseason games tebow will have leveled the playing field with orton. Kyle may look better, cleaner etc. But tebow will be the one scoring points, and leading drives.

[broncobryce]

We went against the #1 defense in league and almost pulled out a win....what does that say about Tebow?

And the previous week came back from down 17. It felt good to actually believe we can still win when being down 10+

With Orton, I just don't feel that way.

[cuzz4169]

Camp report so what...I've heard over the years how good guys looked in camp come game day they shit their pants. When 2-3 preseason games played then lets evaluate QB play not 5 days of TC.

[NorCalBronco7]

Well... I don't feel that Tebow gives us a chance to win.. no matter what. Because he certainly has NOT earned that kind of respect yet. But I would rather find out if he does deserve it.

Exactly. Its hilarious and ironic that most of the people who hate Orton are DAMN SURE Tebow is better. Really? Because of 3 games? Since when did Tebows hype turn into respect? Its not a thin line to me.

Fox values proven vets, moreso than the average coach. He isnt going to *give* Orton away and take his chances with Tebow because, well, next years Qb class is percieved as strong.

Also, I would like to see Tebow start and Orton get traded for fair value, but that doesnt mean I believe Tebow is as good as Orton right now. Those of you that act like you know Tebow is better at this moment really dont know what your talking about and are basing your assumptions on hype moreso than production.

[broncobryce]

Exactly. Its hilarious and ironic that most of the people who hate Orton are DAMN SURE Tebow is better. Really? Because of 3 games? Since when did Tebows hype turn into respect? Its not a thin line to me.

Fox values proven vets, moreso than the average coach. He isnt going to *give* Orton away and take his chances with Tebow because, well, next years Qb class is percieved as strong.

Also, I would like to see Tebow start and Orton get traded for fair value, but that doesnt mean I believe Tebow is as good as Orton right now. Those of you that act like you know Tebow is better at this moment really dont know what your talking about and are basing your assumptions on hype moreso than production.

Did you read my post? We were down 17 and won. Almost pulled it out against the sparklers too. You think that could happen with Orton? I don't, he's proven it time after time. Also, it doesn't matter if Orton is slightly better right now. We know what he is. We need to know what Tebow is or we are just spinning our wheels.

Tebow was a rookie for God's sake. I don't expect perfection out of a rookie QB's first 3 games. Just some glimpses. And to me he showed that.

[Mike]

Exactly. Its hilarious and ironic that most of the people who hate Orton are DAMN SURE Tebow is better. Really? Because of 3 games? Since when did Tebows hype turn into respect? Its not a thin line to me.

Fox values proven vets, moreso than the average coach. He isnt going to *give* Orton away and take his chances with Tebow because, well, next years Qb class is percieved as strong.

Also, I would like to see Tebow start and Orton get traded for fair value, but that doesnt mean I believe Tebow is as good as Orton right now. Those of you that act like you know Tebow is better at this moment really dont know what your talking about and are basing your assumptions on hype moreso than production.

Nobody knows that Tebow is better than Orton. I know what we get in Orton. I'd rather see what we get in Tebow.

[broncobryce]

I guess "hype" is what brought us back from down 17?

[NorCalBronco7]

Did you read my post? We were down 17 and won. Almost pulled it out against the sparklers too. You think that could happen with Orton? I don't, he's proven it time after time. Also, it doesn't matter if Orton is slightly better right now. We know what he is. We need to know what Tebow is or we are just spinning our wheels.

If you dont understand how bringing up *1 Game* or even *3 Games* means little to nothing in contex of comparisons, then you must not watch much of any sports.

And it definitely does matter which Qb is better to John Fox. And thats all that matters if both Orton and Tebow are staying with the Broncos.

[NightTerror218]

Exactly. Its hilarious and ironic that most of the people who hate Orton are DAMN SURE Tebow is better. Really? Because of 3 games? Since when did Tebows hype turn into respect? Its not a thin line to me.

Fox values proven vets, moreso than the average coach. He isnt going to *give* Orton away and take his chances with Tebow because, well, next years Qb class is percieved as strong.

Also, I would like to see Tebow start and Orton get traded for fair value, but that doesnt mean I believe Tebow is as good as Orton right now. Those of you that act like you know Tebow is better at this moment really dont know what your talking about and are basing your assumptions on hype moreso than production.


Funny because Fox went with a rookie Delhomme with the Panthers.....so much for a Vet.

[NorCalBronco7]

Funny because Fox went with a rookie Delhomme with the Panthers.....so much for a Vet.

Jake wasnt even the opening day starter. He did get his chance at some point in the first game, but only because Rodney Pete played like garbage.

Fox not going with vets in his career is definitley an anomaly.

[NightTerror218]

Jake wasnt even the opening day starter. He did get his chance at some point in the first game, but only because Rodney Pete played like garbage.

Fox not going with vets in his career is definitley an anomaly.

He stuck with Delhomme after that game for many years afterwards. It kinda null-n-voids the he goes with Vet comment. He looks like he did it back then, he is going to start 2-5 rookies this year and not vets. So its hard to say he goes for vets. Several other players are only in the 2nd seasons too.

[underrated29]

I dont think anyone has said tebow is better than orton. not once....But he does give us a chance to win any game.

Id rather take my chances on a sloppy rookie who is going to get better with exp. Then a QB who has to have a good Defense and no defenders in his face to succeed.

[broncobryce]

If you dont understand how bringing up *1 Game* or even *3 Games* means little to nothing in contex of comparisons, then you must not watch much of any sports.

And it definitely does matter which Qb is better to John Fox. And thats all that matters if both Orton and Tebow are staying with the Broncos.

When that's all he's played it's what we have to go on. Besides, you said it was all based on hype, so I gave you actual games. What else should I base it on? How someone looks in practice under zero pressure?
But answer my question if you will, are you more confident the Broncos can win, down 17 with Orton or Tebow?

[NorCalBronco7]

He stuck with Delhomme after that game for many years afterwards. It kinda null-n-voids the he goes with Vet comment. He looks like he did it back then, he is going to start 2-5 rookies this year and not vets. So its hard to say he goes for vets. Several other players are only in the 2nd seasons too.

Again, its was anomaly. You obviously know little about how John Fox coaches.

The fact that muliple rookies are going to be starting means nothing when the Broncos had obvious holes to fill throughout the roster. Huge, giant, gapping holes.

[NorCalBronco7]

I dont think anyone has said tebow is better than orton. not once....But he does give us a chance to win any game.

Id rather take my chances on a sloppy rookie who is going to get better with exp. Then a QB who has to have a good Defense and no defenders in his face to succeed.

Tebow is AT LEAST as good......BS

A lot others are saying it without saying it.



When that's all he's played it's what we have to go on. Besides, you said it was all based on hype, so I gave you actual games. What else should I base it on? How someone looks in practice under zero pressure?
But answer my question if you will, are you more confident the Broncos can win, down 17 with Orton or Tebow?

And all Tebows played is 3 games. Thats not much to go on.

I cant answer the last question with any ceartainty. Nobody can.

[BroncoStud]

Who expects Tebow to win a drop-back passing contest against many QBs in the NFL? He just isn't there yet. Neither was Steve Young when he went to the USFL... Neither was Randall Cunningham until he actually was forced to learn to be a passer.

Tebow isn't a drop-back traditional passer. He needs to be groomed like Mike Vick was. He can do so much more than almost every other QB in the NFL but he isn't built like Orton, and in my opinion that's a good thing.

Orton's ceiling is about 3 feet below Tebow's. These ridiculous claims about 7 on 7 timing drills, etc, etc, will be ancient history when Orto struggles on 3rd down and in the redzone because he lacks the arm, mobility, and mentality to convert when it matters.

I saw enough in 3 games last season that it should have been a forgone conclusion that Tim Tebow be the starter this year and Orton be dealt, the front office apparently felt the same way and tried to do it, it was ORTON who kept himself from being dealt. People don't seem to remember that.

Orton is playing this year so he can land a big fat contract in free agency, his agent said so. As a 7 year NFL veteran Orton should look very good in the early days of camp.

[Ravage!!!]

He better learn to be a drop-back passer...because the NFL is BUILT around the passer. If you aren't, then you are behind. If you are behind, you get replaced. The coaches will be able to tell just how FAR Tebow is behind (and he IS behind). He wasn't a good passer in college, he never took snaps under center, and his footwork/arm motions are bad. If they are TOO far behind, this FO and coach isn't going to take on the PROJECT that the last regime wanted.

If Tebow can't beat out Orton, that says more about Tebow than it does about anyone else. Lets just hope he is able to do the job (Quinn isn't even a consideration).

[BroncoStud]

He better learn to be a drop-back passer...because the NFL is BUILT around the passer. If you aren't, then you are behind. If you are behind, you get replaced. The coaches will be able to tell just how FAR Tebow is behind (and he IS behind). He wasn't a good passer in college, he never took snaps under center, and his footwork/arm motions are bad. If they are TOO far behind, this FO and coach isn't going to take on the PROJECT that the last regime wanted.

If Tebow can't beat out Orton, that says more about Tebow than it does about anyone else. Lets just hope he is able to do the job (Quinn isn't even a consideration).

You aren't going to LEARN to be an NFL drop-back passer getting no reps your first season and then going into the 5th day of camp your second season. I would still prefer to watch a learning-Tebow or Quinn than a "I want free agency next season to get paid" Kyle Orton this year.

It may take Tim 5 years to get it, he may NEVER get it, but Denver has to move forward because next year's crop of QBs is great and we need to know what we have so there can be a plan moving forward. Orton is just holding up this franchise right now, why do you think Elway tried to trade him the second trades were allowed??

[broncobryce]

Tebow is AT LEAST as good......BS

A lot others are saying it without saying it.




And all Tebows played is 3 games. Thats not much to go on.

I cant answer the last question with any ceartainty. Nobody can.

I asked how confident YOU were we could come back from down 17...you can't answer a question about how you feel about something?

[Ravage!!!]

You aren't going to LEARN to be an NFL drop-back passer getting no reps your first season and then going into the 5th day of camp your second season. I would still prefer to watch a learning-Tebow or Quinn than a "I want free agency next season to get paid" Kyle Orton this year.

It may take Tim 5 years to get it, he may NEVER get it, but Denver has to move forward because next year's crop of QBs is great and we need to know what we have so there can be a plan moving forward. Orton is just holding up this franchise right now, why do you think Elway tried to trade him the second trades were allowed??

I know.

But Tebow said that he would work on his short-comings after his junior year when he heard everyone talk about how he wouldn't be a high-round draft pick because of his passing motion. He said he would work on his throwing motion and footwork so that he would be better his senior year.... and he didn't.

Now we are into his second offseason in the NFL, and if its going to take him that long JUST to get on the field, then he's not going to be a starter for the Denver Broncos. Lets face it, Tebow is NEVER going to be a good passer. That says all we need to know right there, to be honest.

Elway commented just the other day, that when you are in the locker room you want to feel that every player on the field gives you the BEST chance to win. If the coaches and players don't think Tebow gives them the BEST chance to win, he won't start. If he can't beat out Orton, then that validates everyone that said Tebow is a BIG BIG PROJECT. Orton is NOT special. He's as average as you can get. If you are supposed to be this dynamic QB, and you can't beat out the average of the average at your position, then that says more about you as a QB than the coaching staff not putting you in the lineup.

Personally, I've accepted that Tebow will never be a good NFL QB a LOoooong time ago. ALthough I want him to start because Orton just bores the living HELL out of me, that doesn't mean I believe we are "missing the opportunity." I honestly believe that Denver is going to draft a QB in next year's draft.

Tebow is a very very COOL guy. A GREAT human being that has all the personality to do whatEVER he wants to. However, having a great personality will not make you a great NFL QB.

[Ravage!!!]

I asked how confident YOU were we could come back from down 17...you can't answer a question about how you feel about something?

he said he can't answer with certainty. That answers your question. Meaning he doesn't know how he feels about Tebow doing ANY kind of come backs because there hasn't been enough of a sample to make a true prediction on that.

[NorCalBronco7]

I asked how confident YOU were we could come back from down 17...you can't answer a question about how you feel about something?

Im not confident of any player after 3 games.


Orton.....not confident at all.

[broncobryce]

Im not confident of any player after 3 games.


Orton.....not confident at all.

I have no confidence we can come back with Orton either. With Tebow at least we've done it in the short time he was on the field.

I'm tired of when we got down by 10 points or so feeling like its over and just sitting there bummed out with no hope.

[broncobryce]

he said he can't answer with certainty. That answers your question. Meaning he doesn't know how he feels about Tebow doing ANY kind of come backs because there hasn't been enough of a sample to make a true prediction on that.

That's fine. It partly proves my point. I have zero confidence we will come back with Orton. Zero hope.

With Tebow, at least he's done it. It appears some refuse to acknowledge it even happened.

[Ravage!!!]

That's fine. It partly proves my point. I have zero confidence we will come back with Orton. Zero hope.

With Tebow, at least he's done it. It appears some refuse to acknowledge it even happened.

Yeah.. but so what? I mean, Frank Reich has the record for the greatest come-back of all time. It doesn't mean squat.

Orton led a great win against New England in '09 (just ask top, he'll be sure to tell you all about it). So Orton has done it as well.

EVERY QB has had their moments, their great plays, their great throws, their great wins (remember Griese against Oakland and the hurt shoulder), and their spectacular tosses. But having such a small sample of games played doesn't really tell anyone that the player is better, it only gives a person a game to say "wow."

How many rookies have we seen come out and just LIGHT IT UP their rookie season, only to come quickly back down to earth? Tons! How many times have we seen back-ups come off the bench for a few games of the season, wow the fans, light up the board, become the talk of Free Agency.... only to completely FLOP as a starter? Its happened more times than I can remember. It happens every year.

[bcbronc]

Something to add on Tebow's three starts, iirc at least 2 if not all 3 involved two teams eliminated from the post season. For a vet, those games have to be even more meaningless than a preseason game.

I do acknowledge that Tebow showed me something last year and in those starts. Even if he never evolves into a true starting QB, he has shown he can create TDs out of certain formations. I do give him a bit of an "x factor" status now in that he can produce getting 8-10 touches per game. If that's all he ends up, I'm fine with it. B

I don't care who looks good at this point of the season. But if Orton is the b est QB through preseason, I'll be pretty disappointed in Tebow's development to date.

[broncobryce]

Yeah.. but so what? I mean, Frank Reich has the record for the greatest come-back of all time. It doesn't mean squat.

Orton led a great win against New England in '09 (just ask top, he'll be sure to tell you all about it). So Orton has done it as well.

EVERY QB has had their moments, their great plays, their great throws, their great wins (remember Griese against Oakland and the hurt shoulder), and their spectacular tosses. But having such a small sample of games played doesn't really tell anyone that the player is better, it only gives a person a game to say "wow."

How many rookies have we seen come out and just LIGHT IT UP their rookie season, only to come quickly back down to earth? Tons! How many times have we seen back-ups come off the bench for a few games of the season, wow the fans, light up the board, become the talk of Free Agency.... only to completely FLOP as a starter? Its happened more times than I can remember. It happens every year.

Orton has many more failures that I remember. Like the 3 interception game the last game of the season when we mathmatically still had a shot at the playoffs in 09. The guy fails time after time. I can't believe everyone forgets the last few seasons fail after fail. Not all his fault, but I saw more potential in tebow. Jesus you guys really think orton will be here even if he stays this season? Its a waste. Elway is no dummy he's seen enough. It seems everyone was bitching that orton sucks now all the sudden he's good. You guys are unbelievable

[Ravage!!!]

Orton has many more failures that I remember. Like the 3 interception game the last game of the season when we mathmatically still had a shot at the playoffs in 09. The guy fails time after time. I can't believe everyone forgets the last few seasons fail after fail. Not all his fault, but I saw more potential in tebow. Jesus you guys really think orton will be here even if he stays this season? Its a waste. Elway is no dummy he's seen enough. It seems everyone was bitching that orton sucks now all the sudden he's good. You guys are unbelievable

No. You aren't listening. I've said thousands of times that I want Tebow to start purely because I know that Orton is NOT the answer. He won't be here in 2012 no matter what.

yes, I remember Orton failing which is why I want Tebow to start.

But lets be real for a moment and stop speaking from pure emotion. Tebow's three games means diddly squat the whole. People that break down game film, look at those three games as reasons why NOT to start Tebow. It shows them there are more reasons NOT to start him than to actually give him the nod. These are guys that break down defenses and game film for a living.

Elway has also been in the locker room and stated JUST THE OTHER DAY when talking with Schlereth. "when you are in that locker room, you want the guys on the field that give you the best chance to win." If Tebow is proving/showing on the practice field that he can't get it done, that he can't put the ball in the right place, and that he can't make the reads.... all while Orton is doing a much better job. Who do you think the players feel give the best CHANCE to win? Its not Tebow right now. Brandon Lloyd said that flat out the other day in an interview. He said he wants Orton to stay, and all the rest is just "the Tebow stuff" (meaning hype).

Don't get upset because Tebow hasn't shown he can beat out Orton. NO ONE is saying Orton is good (except top). But as of yet, no one has seen Tebow show he's better. That says a lot, as well.

[broncobryce]

I just think practice and a real game are two different things, and can't believe the staff is falling for it again. Fool me once....

[NightTerror218]

I just think practice and a real game are two different things, and can't believe the staff is falling for it again. Fool me once....

hey its a new coach....so they can fall for it again....they forgot about the tape

[broncobryce]

hey its a new coach....so they can fall for it again....they forgot about the tape

But most of the offensive staff is still in tact I thought.

[NightTerror218]

But most of the offensive staff is still in tact I thought.

but the big player decision makers are new