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HammeredOut
08-01-2011, 10:43 PM
It seems our guy looks rough, and pretty bad in practice according to SI, and most fans at practice.



First problem: Orton proceeded to kill it in practice, while Tebow struggled. Observers saw it, coaches saw it and, equally important, players saw it.

Second problem: How could the front office -- and Fox, by extension -- even consider moving Orton when the gap between him, Tebow and Brady Quinn has been as wide as the initial debt-reduction plans of Democrats and Republicans?

"Our comment from the very get-go was to let them come out and compete," says executive VP John Elway. "Obviously, if we get trade offers for anyone on the team, we're going to listen to them. It's not just tied to Kyle. Before I got here, we heard different things about the situation down in the locker room, and obviously we don't want that to be a problem. But where we are right here is, Kyle's here and the best guy is going to play. There's no question that the locker room means a lot to me and a lot to John Fox. Players know players, and they want the best opportunity to win. I know when I was sitting down in that room as a player I wanted the best opportunity to win. That's our job, to give them the best opportunity to win and to do what's best for the organization, all encompassed together."

Read the full article at: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/08/01/broncos-quarterbacks/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a1

FanInAZ
08-01-2011, 10:47 PM
I think this was already posted in another thread. Mods, please merge them if this is so.

MOtorboat
08-01-2011, 10:49 PM
I think this was already posted in another thread. Mods, please merge them if this is so.

It was.

I'd like to see the OP's analysis on how many right-handed quarterback "pan out"?

HammeredOut
08-01-2011, 11:06 PM
It was.

I'd like to see the OP's analysis on how many right-handed quarterback "pan out"?

Is this going to be the average Right Handed QB vs. the Heisman Trophy Winning Left Handed QB Debate>??

There is a reason why Left Handed QBs havn't panned out. We already went over this. What like 7 or 8 QBs out of 37 drafted actually had a productive career or 15%.

It doesn't make sense to draft the typical left tackle, who would play the right side to protect a left handed QB's blind side. You would need LTs, LGs type of talent at the right side, and teach o-lineman to flip everything they know about the leftside, and apply it to the rightside. All this would be overnight. You would be teaching franchise left tackles to play a traditional power side, to a pass protection side, or asking your right tackles, and right guards to be elite pass protectors. Those elite pass protectors learn the game from the left side, and are taught from the left side from high school, right up until college. That is the biggest problem with left handed QBs, is not actually the QB and his talent, but actually teaching players at other positions how to deal with a left handed QB, such as lineman.

So are we going to be teaching Ryan Clady the Right Tackle position in order to protect Tebows right side. Or are we going to go with less pass protection on the right side, and have a strong left??

See where im poking at.

MileHiWildcat
08-01-2011, 11:34 PM
Who the hell cares what SI says ? The National Enquirer of sports "journalism".

Magnificent Seven
08-02-2011, 12:49 AM
RELAX! Everyone is rusty! It takes time to get back to reality.

bcbronc
08-02-2011, 01:37 AM
Is this going to be the average Right Handed QB vs. the Heisman Trophy Winning Left Handed QB Debate>??

There is a reason why Left Handed QBs havn't panned out. We already went over this. What like 7 or 8 QBs out of 37 drafted actually had a productive career or 15%.

It doesn't make sense to draft the typical left tackle, who would play the right side to protect a left handed QB's blind side. You would need LTs, LGs type of talent at the right side, and teach o-lineman to flip everything they know about the leftside, and apply it to the rightside. All this would be overnight. You would be teaching franchise left tackles to play a traditional power side, to a pass protection side, or asking your right tackles, and right guards to be elite pass protectors. Those elite pass protectors learn the game from the left side, and are taught from the left side from high school, right up until college. That is the biggest problem with left handed QBs, is not actually the QB and his talent, but actually teaching players at other positions how to deal with a left handed QB, such as lineman.

So are we going to be teaching Ryan Clady the Right Tackle position in order to protect Tebows right side. Or are we going to go with less pass protection on the right side, and have a strong left??

See where im poking at.

the thing is, defenses are still going to have their best pass rusher coming from the offense's left. And even with a LH QB, odds are you're still going to have RBs that prefer the ball in their right hand, and thus still have the right as your "running" side.

Obviously that's a bit simplistic with the amount of disguising looks/moving key guys/lining up strong side based on formation etc done on both sides of the ball these days. But end of the day DCs aren't going to reverse their defensive formations just because they're up against a south-paw, and while some details might change on offense (like which side your #1 WR lines up) not everything is going to change. You probably do need to put a bit more emphasis on the right side of your OL being able to pass block, but let's be realistic here...if you're right side can't pass block for a righty, it's not going to make a whole ton of difference that the QB can see the pass rush coming.

It's not like a team with a typical RH QB has RG and RT that can't pass block worth a lick; an oline is only as strong as its weakest link yadda yadda yadda regardless which hand the QB throws with.

bcbronc
08-02-2011, 01:40 AM
as for Tebow's early camp struggles...only issue/concern I have is it would be nice to hear some reports on how much progress he's made since this time last year. haven't heard much on that (some yes, but nothing I'd call glowing). I'd be less concerned if the situation was Orton looks better, but you can really see the progress in Tebow's game.

As is, haven't really heard that, and that's a bit disappointing (especially since he was the only NFLer working out in the offseason ;) ). Nothing much matters as far as the QBs go imo until preseason starts...and then it will be about who can get the ball in the endzone not who looks prettiest when they throw, or who completed the most passes.

sneakers
08-02-2011, 02:12 AM
If you spent all lockout breastfeeding Haitian orphan infants back to health and turning water into Gatorade, you would be a little rusty at your first practice too.

bcbronc
08-02-2011, 02:26 AM
If you spent all lockout breastfeeding Haitian orphan infants back to health and turning water into Gatorade, you would be a little rusty at your first practice too.

yup, lactating titties mess up a man's delivery big time.

MOtorboat
08-02-2011, 07:08 AM
Is this going to be the average Right Handed QB vs. the Heisman Trophy Winning Left Handed QB Debate>??

There is a reason why Left Handed QBs havn't panned out. We already went over this. What like 7 or 8 QBs out of 37 drafted actually had a productive career or 15%.

It doesn't make sense to draft the typical left tackle, who would play the right side to protect a left handed QB's blind side. You would need LTs, LGs type of talent at the right side, and teach o-lineman to flip everything they know about the leftside, and apply it to the rightside. All this would be overnight. You would be teaching franchise left tackles to play a traditional power side, to a pass protection side, or asking your right tackles, and right guards to be elite pass protectors. Those elite pass protectors learn the game from the left side, and are taught from the left side from high school, right up until college. That is the biggest problem with left handed QBs, is not actually the QB and his talent, but actually teaching players at other positions how to deal with a left handed QB, such as lineman.

So are we going to be teaching Ryan Clady the Right Tackle position in order to protect Tebows right side. Or are we going to go with less pass protection on the right side, and have a strong left??

See where im poking at.

You're right. We have gone over this. ALL quarterbacks pan out at about a 15 percent clip. That's why you have to look at right-handed quarterbacks too.

broncobryce
08-02-2011, 07:46 AM
RELAX! Everyone is rusty! It takes time to get back to reality.

No! Looking good the first week of practice is equal to being superbowl mvp.

HammeredOut
08-02-2011, 10:11 AM
You're right. We have gone over this. ALL quarterbacks pan out at about a 15 percent clip. That's why you have to look at right-handed quarterbacks too.

like 31 of them starting in the league right now. Whats that, about 96% of the league are right handed. With the exception of Mike Vick.

So from a teaching stand point, who exactly is going to teach a traditional power right side, to a pass protection side like on the leftside. When about 100% of the league are traditional left side protection.

You would think its a Coaching Nightmare.

BroncoStud
08-02-2011, 10:17 AM
like 31 of them starting in the league right now. Whats that, about 96% of the league are right handed. With the exception of Mike Vick.

So from a teaching stand point, who exactly is going to teach a traditional power right side, to a pass protection side like on the leftside. When about 100% of the league are traditional left side protection.

You would think its a Coaching Nightmare.

Most of the population is right-handed, might that have SOMETHING to do with it?

MOtorboat
08-02-2011, 03:52 PM
like 31 of them starting in the league right now. Whats that, about 96% of the league are right handed. With the exception of Mike Vick.

So from a teaching stand point, who exactly is going to teach a traditional power right side, to a pass protection side like on the leftside. When about 100% of the league are traditional left side protection.

You would think its a Coaching Nightmare.

Protections don't change for left-handed quarterbacks. Vick's LT is still the best player on the line.

You have been comparing left-handed quarterbacks to left-handed quarterbacks, citing that 15 percent "pan out."

So, you can't then compare the number of left-handed quarterbacks to the number of right-hand quarterbacks and call that an apples to apples comparison. That's apples to oranges.

Now, if you compare right-handed quarterbacks that succeed to right-handed quarterbacks who fail, what number do you get? About 15 percent. So, 15 percent is about the norm for ALL quarterbacks. Thus making the original stat fairly pointless.

Bugs Baloney
08-02-2011, 04:01 PM
Most of the population is right-handed, might that have SOMETHING to do with it?

:salute:

NightTerror218
08-02-2011, 04:13 PM
like 31 of them starting in the league right now. Whats that, about 96% of the league are right handed. With the exception of Mike Vick.

So from a teaching stand point, who exactly is going to teach a traditional power right side, to a pass protection side like on the leftside. When about 100% of the league are traditional left side protection.

You would think its a Coaching Nightmare.


And how many left handed ones have been in draft......may 1 out of 32 or so.

LTC Pain
08-02-2011, 04:50 PM
Allen Iverson - "We're talking about practice, man. I mean, how silly is that? We're talking about practice."

HammeredOut
08-02-2011, 04:53 PM
Protections don't change for left-handed quarterbacks. Vick's LT is still the best player on the line.

You have been comparing left-handed quarterbacks to left-handed quarterbacks, citing that 15 percent "pan out."

So, you can't then compare the number of left-handed quarterbacks to the number of right-hand quarterbacks and call that an apples to apples comparison. That's apples to oranges.

Now, if you compare right-handed quarterbacks that succeed to right-handed quarterbacks who fail, what number do you get? About 15 percent. So, 15 percent is about the norm for ALL quarterbacks. Thus making the original stat fairly pointless.

Maybe there was a huge reason why Matt Leinhart slipped down in the draft when he was suppose to be a top 10 pick. Or maybe there is a reason why the same thing happened with Tebow.

again, if a team has a number 1 receiver who had been taking passes from a right handed QB, and he is now the number 2 checkdown because, your lefty isn't looking that way, and your pass protection is worse on the blindside. Then there is a good reason why left handed QB's don't work out.

My point about 15% of left handed QBs that pan out, was in the entire history of drafting, only 7 or 8 worked out. If Matt Leinhart couldnt pan out, and he was all that and a bag of chips, coming out of NFL style offense. Then some would say that left handed QBs just don't work out in the NFL.

There wasn't even enough left handed QBs to make a good top 10 list. You would need to make a top 7 list.

Look at the history behind some of the Florida Gators who have won the Heisman and never panned out. Look no further then Steve Spuriur, Danny Wuerffel. Both won all the college prizes, but both were huge busts in the NFL. Infact on numurous occassions, Florida Gators had QBs in the top 5 for Heisman balloting, and votes. So maybe its just a popularity contest getting out of hand, which is why the President wants a playoff format.

MOtorboat
08-02-2011, 05:06 PM
Maybe there was a huge reason why Matt Leinhart slipped down in the draft when he was suppose to be a top 10 pick. Or maybe there is a reason why the same thing happened with Tebow.

again, if a team has a number 1 receiver who had been taking passes from a right handed QB, and he is now the number 2 checkdown because, your lefty isn't looking that way, and your pass protection is worse on the blindside. Then there is a good reason why left handed QB's don't work out.

My point about 15% of left handed QBs that pan out, was in the entire history of drafting, only 7 or 8 worked out. If Matt Leinhart couldnt pan out, and he was all that and a bag of chips, coming out of NFL style offense. Then some would say that left handed QBs just don't work out in the NFL.

There wasn't even enough left handed QBs to make a good top 10 list. You would need to make a top 7 list.

Look at the history behind some of the Florida Gators who have won the Heisman and never panned out. Look no further then Steve Spuriur, Danny Wuerffel. Both won all the college prizes, but both were huge busts in the NFL. Infact on numurous occassions, Florida Gators had QBs in the top 5 for Heisman balloting, and votes. So maybe its just a popularity contest getting out of hand, which is why the President wants a playoff format.

How many right-handed quarterbacks "pan out" compared to other right-handed quarterbacks?

Matt Leinart didn't slip because he throws the ball with his left hand. He slipped because he can't throw with any velocity. And its not like he slipped that far, and it sure as hell wasn't because he was left-handed.

Ugh, the Florida crap.

There are lots of arguments why Tim Tebow won't make it. Neither of them are those two particular arguments.

G_Money
08-02-2011, 05:08 PM
Dude, 10ish percent of the population is left-handed, which means that if 96% of the league is RH then there is one, maybe two LH QB missing from the equation. Tebow starts, and there's two. No more shortage.

Out of 400 QBs, you would expect 35-45 to be left-handed. Maybe less, if there's a selection bias against lefties in HS and college because there isn't enough talent on the OL at those levels to properly protect a lefty's blind-side. A team might have one great tackle, but probably not two in high school.

Being left-handed is not the problem - not being good enough is the problem.

~G

weazel
08-02-2011, 05:08 PM
at least he looks like he can bench alot! :tsk:

chazoe60
08-02-2011, 05:14 PM
HO is a damn dirty leftist.

Dzone
08-02-2011, 05:21 PM
The difference between Tebow and those other Florida qbs who failed in the pros is Tebowmania. So many people love Tebow. Not just in colorado and florida. Theres never been anything quite like it. It will break a lot of hearts if Tebow is deemed not good enough for the NFL

Ravage!!!
08-02-2011, 05:26 PM
Maybe there was a huge reason why Matt Leinhart slipped down in the draft when he was suppose to be a top 10 pick. Or maybe there is a reason why the same thing happened with Tebow.

Leinhart was taken in the top 10, at #10. Tebow didn't "slip" down in the draft as he wasn't projected to be taken until late in the 2nd round or later. Hence, he was taken much HIGHER than projected and it has NOTHING to do with him being left handed.


again, if a team has a number 1 receiver who had been taking passes from a right handed QB, and he is now the number 2 checkdown because, your lefty isn't looking that way, and your pass protection is worse on the blindside. Then there is a good reason why left handed QB's don't work out.
Your X WR is still your X wr. That doesn't change based on the hand the QB throws with.


My point about 15% of left handed QBs that pan out, was in the entire history of drafting, only 7 or 8 worked out. If Matt Leinhart couldnt pan out, and he was all that and a bag of chips, coming out of NFL style offense. Then some would say that left handed QBs just don't work out in the NFL.

Ken Stabler, Jim Zorn, Boomer Esiason, Mike Vick, and Steve Young say hello.

Not to mention, only 15% of the right handed QBs that are drafted, pan out.... in the ENTIRE history of drafting.


Look at the history behind some of the Florida Gators who have won the Heisman and never panned out.

Irrelevent. How many Michigan QBs won National Championships and didn't pan out? Miami QBs? Oklahoma QBs. What do past players have anything to do with current players?


So maybe its just a popularity contest getting out of hand, which is why the President wants a playoff format.

uh.. wut? :confused:

vettesplus
08-02-2011, 05:47 PM
as i stated in a thread about 4-5 months ago, orton will be the starting qb for the broncos. you can be sure of that....

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 09:31 AM
Leinhart was taken in the top 10, at #10. Tebow didn't "slip" down in the draft as he wasn't projected to be taken until late in the 2nd round or later. Hence, he was taken much HIGHER than projected and it has NOTHING to do with him being left handed.


Your X WR is still your X wr. That doesn't change based on the hand the QB throws with.



Ken Stabler, Jim Zorn, Boomer Esiason, Mike Vick, and Steve Young say hello.

Not to mention, only 15% of the right handed QBs that are drafted, pan out.... in the ENTIRE history of drafting.



Irrelevent. How many Michigan QBs won National Championships and didn't pan out? Miami QBs? Oklahoma QBs. What do past players have anything to do with current players?



uh.. wut? :confused:

Denny Green said "I felt like heaven came down and gave us this great gift", on selecting Leinhart at 10. Everybody had Leinhart near the top of the draft. Leinhart slipped out of the top 5. Sorry, I was thinking about Aaron Rodgers, who slipped down to 24 or 25. But still, Matt slipped down a mountian of picks.

Well you hit 5 out of the 7 or 8 left handed QBs who worked out. Can you guess the other 2 or 3. Between Stabler, Vick, and Young. They were some of the best cheesers with the ball upfield. Not many better then these guys when they decided to run with the ball. Thats a big trend with Leftys as you can see. You have to be good at tucking in the ball, because your blindside protection is lacking.

Tom Brady panned out, he is a Michigan QB. The only difference is some come from a run option spread offense, others come from NFL style offenses. That has been a huge translation in the NFL. Look at all the FLorida Gators who won Heismens but were big busts in the NFL. All because Florida ran, run option qb plays 90% of the time.

Is there anyway we can have Orton's head, and throwing arm, on a Tebow body? Somebody wanna cut and paste give it a shot. See what we might have.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 09:44 AM
Irrelevent. How many Michigan QBs won National Championships and didn't pan out? Miami QBs? Oklahoma QBs. What do past players have anything to do with current players?



uh.. wut? :confused:

When Michigan won a National Championship, Charles Woodson won the Heisman, Brian Griese made a stop in denver, and players like Dhani Jones, James Hall, Jay Feely, Anthony Thomas, Jeff Backus, Steve Huchinson, Tai Streets, Ian Gold, Tom Brady, Tai Streets, Jon Jenson, Aaron Shea all went on to have pretty good careers in the NFL.

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 09:47 AM
When Michigan won a National Championship, Charles Woodson won the Heisman, Brian Griese made a stop in denver, and players like Dhani Jones, James Hall, Jay Feely, Anthony Thomas, Jeff Backus, Steve Huchinson, Tai Streets, Ian Gold, Tom Brady, Tai Streets, Jon Jenson, Aaron Shea all went on to have pretty good careers in the NFL.

There were 2 Tai Streets playing at Michigan?

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 09:49 AM
There were 2 Tai Streets playing at Michigan?


I would have to concur that Brian Griese was a far better National Championship QB, then any Florida Gator Hiesman bust.

T.K.O.
08-03-2011, 10:12 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/03/merril-hoge-says-tim-tebow-just-cant-play/


Merril Hoge says Tim Tebow just can’t play
Posted by Michael David Smith on August 3, 2011, 8:47 AM EDT

Former Steelers and Bears fullback Merril Hoge watches a lot of all-22 game film in his role as an analyst on ESPN’s NFL Matchup, and after watching film of the Denver Broncos from last season, Hoge says he knows who their starting quarterback should be: Kyle Orton.

In fact, in a series of posts on Twitter this morning, Hoge said the idea that Tim Tebow should be a starter is absurd.

“Sitting watching tape of Bronco offense from last year!” Hoge wrote. “Orton or Tebow? It’s embarrassing to think the Broncos could win with Tebow!!”

Hoge’s tweets (which I’ve lightly edited for clarity) mocked the idea that just because Tebow was a Heisman Trophy-winning college star, that means he can hack it in the NFL.

“Orton or Tebow? QB play is not just about who works hard gives rah-rah college speeches or who is a good guy,” Hoge wrote. “Because Orton works hard and is a good guy as well. It’s about who can play!!”

When Tebow was a star at Florida, he was a great fit for the Gators’ spread offense, but he wasn’t asked to do the things an NFL quarterback does, and his throwing motion looked awkward. Hoge says that Tebow’s throwing motion hasn’t improved and his accuracy is a mess.

Dzone
08-03-2011, 10:12 AM
colin cowheard on espn calling Orton another rich gannon. A qb who becomes great later in his career

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:15 AM
When Michigan won a National Championship, Charles Woodson won the Heisman, Brian Griese made a stop in denver, and players like Dhani Jones, James Hall, Jay Feely, Anthony Thomas, Jeff Backus, Steve Huchinson, Tai Streets, Ian Gold, Tom Brady, Tai Streets, Jon Jenson, Aaron Shea all went on to have pretty good careers in the NFL.

Do you even pay attention to what you are typing and if it has ANY relevence to the topic? Who cares who was playing on the team what won the Michigan title? That wasn't even CLOSE to being the point (not to mention you listed players that didn't even play but were on the roster, wth?).

T.K.O.
08-03-2011, 10:16 AM
We do have to remember that Orton only had 2 years in the system and lost his #1 reciever after 1,no running game to speak of and vanilla playcalling.
i dont think anyone really knows his potential with a solid team and some continuity....not even Orton;)

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:17 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/03/merril-hoge-says-tim-tebow-just-cant-play/


Merril Hoge says Tim Tebow just can’t play
Posted by Michael David Smith on August 3, 2011, 8:47 AM EDT

Former Steelers and Bears fullback Merril Hoge watches a lot of all-22 game film in his role as an analyst on ESPN’s NFL Matchup, and after watching film of the Denver Broncos from last season, Hoge says he knows who their starting quarterback should be: Kyle Orton.

In fact, in a series of posts on Twitter this morning, Hoge said the idea that Tim Tebow should be a starter is absurd.

“Sitting watching tape of Bronco offense from last year!” Hoge wrote. “Orton or Tebow? It’s embarrassing to think the Broncos could win with Tebow!!”

Hoge’s tweets (which I’ve lightly edited for clarity) mocked the idea that just because Tebow was a Heisman Trophy-winning college star, that means he can hack it in the NFL.

“Orton or Tebow? QB play is not just about who works hard gives rah-rah college speeches or who is a good guy,” Hoge wrote. “Because Orton works hard and is a good guy as well. It’s about who can play!!”

When Tebow was a star at Florida, he was a great fit for the Gators’ spread offense, but he wasn’t asked to do the things an NFL quarterback does, and his throwing motion looked awkward. Hoge says that Tebow’s throwing motion hasn’t improved and his accuracy is a mess.

Yeah, and Ron Jaworski says the same thing..that Tebow is absolutely NOT ready and that Orton most probably will be the starter for the entire season (barring injury).

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:18 AM
We do have to remember that Orton only had 2 years in the system and lost his #1 reciever after 1,no running game to speak of and vanilla playcalling.
i dont think anyone really knows his potential with a solid team and some continuity....not even Orton;)

I think we do. He's not a play maker, he's a game manager. Rich Gannon is the perfect example. He ws never a great QB, he was the game manager that stepped into the right system.

weazel
08-03-2011, 10:20 AM
The difference between Tebow and those other Florida qbs who failed in the pros is Tebowmania. So many people love Tebow. Not just in colorado and florida. Theres never been anything quite like it. It will break a lot of hearts WHEN Tebow is deemed not good enough for the NFL

...fixed


Tebow looks like he wants to be a weightlifter, not a QB. He's not building a body that will lend itself well to the NFL and he will be forgotten by the end of next season.

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 10:25 AM
We do have to remember that Orton only had 2 years in the system and lost his #1 reciever after 1,no running game to speak of and vanilla playcalling.
i dont think anyone really knows his potential with a solid team and some continuity....not even Orton;)

We've seen the best of Orton, and it isn't nearly good enough. When you need an all-world supporting cast to win teams you just aren't franchise QB material.

Orton AT MOST, has 1 year left here in Denver, at most likely he won't be the starter for all of any of this season.

I think Elway is playing this the right way, let Orton perform his way out of Denver while he still can. Orton will be starting for someone else on opening day.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 10:26 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/03/merril-hoge-says-tim-tebow-just-cant-play/


Merril Hoge says Tim Tebow just can’t play
Posted by Michael David Smith on August 3, 2011, 8:47 AM EDT

Former Steelers and Bears fullback Merril Hoge watches a lot of all-22 game film in his role as an analyst on ESPN’s NFL Matchup, and after watching film of the Denver Broncos from last season, Hoge says he knows who their starting quarterback should be: Kyle Orton.

In fact, in a series of posts on Twitter this morning, Hoge said the idea that Tim Tebow should be a starter is absurd.

“Sitting watching tape of Bronco offense from last year!” Hoge wrote. “Orton or Tebow? It’s embarrassing to think the Broncos could win with Tebow!!”

Hoge’s tweets (which I’ve lightly edited for clarity) mocked the idea that just because Tebow was a Heisman Trophy-winning college star, that means he can hack it in the NFL.

“Orton or Tebow? QB play is not just about who works hard gives rah-rah college speeches or who is a good guy,” Hoge wrote. “Because Orton works hard and is a good guy as well. It’s about who can play!!”

When Tebow was a star at Florida, he was a great fit for the Gators’ spread offense, but he wasn’t asked to do the things an NFL quarterback does, and his throwing motion looked awkward. Hoge says that Tebow’s throwing motion hasn’t improved and his accuracy is a mess.

I can't even find dirt like this? ^^^

The NFL network said, that if the Broncos want to win or have a chance at winning, they need Orton, and they all agreed lastnight.

Sharpe I believe said "If the Broncos want the best chance at winning, Orton is your guy."

Marshall said "If you start out with a clean slate, and you want your best talent at the position, Orton is your guy".

Willie McGinest said " I rememeber back in Cleveland, when Quinn would step on the practice field, everybody would cheer, just like Tebow in Denver".

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 10:28 AM
I can't even find dirt like this? ^^^

The NFL network said, that if the Broncos want to win or have a chance at winning, they need Orton, and they all agreed lastnight.

Sharpe I believe said "If the Broncos want the best chance at winning, Orton is your guy."

Marshall said "If you start out with a clean slate, and you want your best talent at the position, Orton is your guy".

Willie McGinest said " I rememeber back in Cleveland, when Quinn would step on the practice field, everybody would cheer, just like Tebow in Denver".

LIKE WE HAVE BEEN SAYING... WHAT HAS ORTON WON IN DENVER?

He's 5-17 in his last 22 games. He "won" in Chicago with a 59 QB rating.

Orton is no more a "winner" than Tebow is a "passer"... All of this nonsense after a few days of practice :laugh:.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 10:30 AM
...fixed


Tebow looks like he wants to be a weightlifter, not a QB. He's not building a body that will lend itself well to the NFL and he will be forgotten by the end of next season.

Tebow would make a great FB option in the flat. Or have him run the Wildcat. There is packages available for Tebow. Tebow has average speed, but great power. He sorta reminds me of Payton Hillis build, real cut, lots of power.

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:32 AM
He's too tall to play FB. Anyone that suggests he's a FB is just being silly for the sake of being ridiculous.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 10:44 AM
LIKE WE HAVE BEEN SAYING... WHAT HAS ORTON WON IN DENVER?

He's 5-17 in his last 22 games. He "won" in Chicago with a 59 QB rating.

Orton is no more a "winner" than Tebow is a "passer"... All of this nonsense after a few days of practice :laugh:.

Tebow is a losing QB in the NFL, with a Losing record.

Who cares about Chicago 8 years ago. Make yourself a thread, and have all the rookie QBR of all the QB's in the league. Give us something to debate.

Tebow has never been a passer in College. He was simply a RB with a below average arm, and accuracy, who fit well into the spread offense, Run option QB plan. Tebow only averaged 15 completions a game in college, and 90% of those were bubble screens. Tebow has never had to face NFL defenses, and take an NFL read in his life. Infact if you look at his throwing motion, its like a Catapault. The Ball starts off at his chest, and gets catapaulted from the waist. I don't think ive ever seen an uglier release in the NFL in my life.

Orton won his first 6 games in a row as a Denver starter. He did that with a bad coach, and bad plan.

You some how seem to think that the Denver Team record 5-17 has everything to do with Orton. Well if you watched the games, you would no that the Denver run game was non existent, and the defense dissappeared which is why the were the last ranked defense and we were picking 2nd overall. Last season, it really makes you wonder why McDaniels got rid of Mike Nolan. As he kept the Broncos defense competitive.

Did you know that last season Kyle Orton had a better passer rating then all of John Elways career except for 3 seasons. That is a great stat. Also, John has never averaged as much as Kyle Orton in a season at 281 yards per game.

The Tebow experiment failed horribly. He will never be a starting QB in the NFL, if Denver doesn't do it first. If Tebow was released tomorrow, not one GM would be willing to give him the starting job anywhere. I would bet on that one.

SOCALORADO.
08-03-2011, 10:45 AM
He's too tall to play FB. Anyone that suggests he's a FB is just being silly for the sake of being ridiculous.

H-back/TE

I am officially done with this issue. From now on i am hoping for
http://d380otju09u5ho.cloudfront.net/andrew%20luck.jpg
or
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/083/537/105194470_display_image.jpg?1310538852

Dont care who just so long as its one of em.

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 10:47 AM
Tebow is a losing QB in the NFL, with a Losing record.

Who cares about Chicago 8 years ago. Make yourself a thread, and have all the rookie QBR of all the QB's in the league. Give us something to debate.

Tebow has never been a passer in College. He was simply a RB with a below average arm, and accuracy, who fit well into the spread offense, Run option QB plan. Tebow only averaged 15 completions a game in college, and 90% of those were bubble screens. Tebow has never had to face NFL defenses, and take an NFL read in his life. Infact if you look at his throwing motion, its like a Catapault. The Ball starts off at his chest, and gets catapaulted from the waist. I don't think ive ever seen an uglier release in the NFL in my life.

Orton won his first 6 games in a row as a Denver starter. He did that with a bad coach, and bad plan.

You some how seem to think that the Denver Team record 5-17 has everything to do with Orton. Well if you watched the games, you would no that the Denver run game was non existent, and the defense dissappeared which is why the were the last ranked defense and we were picking 2nd overall. Last season, it really makes you wonder why McDaniels got rid of Mike Nolan. As he kept the Broncos defense competitive.

Did you know that last season Kyle Orton had a better passer rating then all of John Elways career except for 3 seasons. That is a great stat. Also, John has never averaged as much as Kyle Orton in a season at 281 yards per game.

The Orton experiment failed horribly. He will never be a starting QB in the NFL, if Denver doesn't do it first. If Tebow was released tomorrow, not one GM would be willing to give him the starting job anywhere. I would bet on that one.


Gee, sounds a LOT like Kyle Orton to me! Miami wasn't even sure he'd start over Chad Henne. :welcome:

Nomad
08-03-2011, 10:48 AM
He's too tall to play FB. Anyone that suggests he's a FB is just being silly for the sake of being ridiculous.

I'm not saying Tebow would make a good FB, but Marcel Reece would disagree that 6'3" is too tall to play FB!

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm not saying Tebow would make a good FB, but Marcel Reece would disagree that 6'3" is too tall to play FB!

Fair point. I do stand corrected. Although I think Reece is the exception to the rule.... I guess I shouldn't pigeon hole Tebow so much :lol: :beer:

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 10:51 AM
H-back/TE

I am officially done with this issue. From now on i am hoping for
http://d380otju09u5ho.cloudfront.net/andrew%20luck.jpg
or
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/083/537/105194470_display_image.jpg?1310538852

Dont care who just so long as its one of em.

We need Tebow to start this year, and we need to ship Orton off to Seattle then. If one of those 2 guys play for us next season. Im not sure if the Front Office is willing to do that. If we do, I bet one will be wearing a Skins uniform, and the other will be wearing a Broncos uniform.

The cats already out of the bag on Tebow. If we trade Orton, it will purposely look like we are trying to sandbag the season, so we can draft one of those guys.

It makes all the sense in the world. We sign a rookie for 5.5 million a season under the new salary cap, and we now have cap space to go after whoever we want, with a franchise QB. Its not like we have to spend 80 million and give him 50 mill in GM.

We could own the division for a decade.

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 10:53 AM
I would take either one of those guys over what we currently have in a heartbeat. Luck is a sure thing, Elway will hopefully sell the house to get him. I'm talking every pick we have, go Ditka, throw on a suit and put Luck in a wedding dress, just get it done.

Like Hammered said, we will own this division for a decade.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 10:55 AM
Fair point. I do stand corrected. Although I think Reece is the exception to the rule.... I guess I shouldn't pigeon hole Tebow so much :lol: :beer:

perfect size for an H-Back. Get Tebow in open space, rubbling and bubbling taking a pass from Orton, with him gaining speed along the sideline, hat down on both a safety, and a CB. We just found ourselves a 10 yard play.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 10:59 AM
Gee, sounds a LOT like Kyle Orton to me! Miami wasn't even sure he'd start over Chad Henne. :welcome:

Orton was like 2nd or 3rd in the league with passing plays over 20 yards. That is not below average. He had a better touch on the long ball then guys who are sporting superbowl rings last season, and in only 13 games.

Guess again.

Nomad
08-03-2011, 10:59 AM
Fair point. I do stand corrected. Although I think Reece is the exception to the rule.... I guess I shouldn't pigeon hole Tebow so much :lol: :beer:

Just giving you shit:D! This QB stuff is nauseating and I wish it would be done with!

If Tebow is willing, I would try and find a spot for him somewhere on the field, at least for his drive, passion and leadership. But as the old saying goes "The NFL is where Florida QBs football careers go to die", though I'd like to see Tebow get a shot.

And SOCALORADO, I hope you're right about Barkley because between USC and Florida, I don't know which college has more overhyped QBs come into the NFL and don't live up to it.

weazel
08-03-2011, 10:59 AM
anyone on here saying that Tebow is a better option than Orton right now is just a hater. I couldnt care less for either one of them but Orton is leaps and bounds better than Tebow. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

I really dont think it matters who we start anyway, this defense is so useless were not gonna win more than a few games anyway. So play Tebow, win 1 or 2 games and get another top 3 pick. This team is in a position most of us has never seen before.

SOCALORADO.
08-03-2011, 11:04 AM
We need Tebow to start this year, and we need to ship Orton off to Seattle then. If one of those 2 guys play for us next season. Im not sure if the Front Office is willing to do that. If we do, I bet one will be wearing a Skins uniform, and the other will be wearing a Broncos uniform.

The cats already out of the bag on Tebow. If we trade Orton, it will purposely look like we are trying to sandbag the season, so we can draft one of those guys.

It makes all the sense in the world. We sign a rookie for 5.5 million a season under the new salary cap, and we now have cap space to go after whoever we want, with a franchise QB. Its not like we have to spend 80 million and give him 50 mill in GM.

We could own the division for a decade.


I dont care what DEN does, so long as they have a top 2 pick next year.
This whole team/mess is just flat out embarassing. DEN is a freakin joke.
Orton sucks. Period. Tebow looks like he sucks. Great.
So as of now, i am officially on the

*DRAFTLUCKORBARKLEY BANDWAGON*
http://coliseumoftroy.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/43.jpg
http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Andrew-Luck.jpg

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Orton was like 2nd or 3rd in the league with passing plays over 20 yards. That is not below average. He had a better touch on the long ball then guys who are sporting superbowl rings last season, and in only 13 games.

Guess again.

Throwing a football 40 yards in the air and having a "strong arm" are 2 totally unrelated issues. Orton does NOT have a strong arm, as Arizona stated when they opted not to pursue him this year, in fact blaming his 3rd down struggles on his lack of arm strength.

Guess again.

BroncoStud
08-03-2011, 11:10 AM
I dont care what DEN does, so long as they have a top 2 pick next year.
This whole team/mess is just flat out embarassing. DEN is a freakin joke.
Orton sucks. Period. Tebow looks like he sucks. Great.
So as of now, i am officially on the

*DRAFTLUCKORBARKLEY BANDWAGON*
http://coliseumoftroy.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/43.jpg
http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Andrew-Luck.jpg

We're not that smart. We'll win 7 games and remove ourselves from the running for either of those players.

We are looking at having to bring in a QB like McNabb or something next year if we don't go with Tebow...

You're right, this is embarrassing. Our front office has been amateur hour for 3 years now. It seems like so long ago that we watched Jay Cutler and Eddie Royal absolutely DESTROY the Raiders in week 1.

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 11:18 AM
Throwing a football 40 yards in the air and having a "strong arm" are 2 totally unrelated issues. Orton does NOT have a strong arm, as Arizona stated when they opted not to pursue him this year, in fact blaming his 3rd down struggles on his lack of arm strength.

Guess again.

I've tried to explain this time and time again.

Orton doesn't throw an extremely deep ball, and if he does, who cares? That doesn't make him able to zip the ball in the tight windows....which is something he absolutely struggles at.

Orton's deep ball, and leading the league in passes over 20 yrds means DIDDLY. I guess when you are grasping for straws at something positive, you'll hold onto anything you can find.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Throwing a football 40 yards in the air and having a "strong arm" are 2 totally unrelated issues. Orton does NOT have a strong arm, as Arizona stated when they opted not to pursue him this year, in fact blaming his 3rd down struggles on his lack of arm strength.

Guess again.

A strong arm is related to the long completions of 20+ yards. The outs/ins, outside and inside post, the seam, and pretty much every long route, Orton tossed on spot, with accuracy.

Arizona stated they wanted Kolb, before they wanted Orton. Denver never recieved to many phone calls for Orton from AZ, because they were to busy dealing for Kolb. Orton is 10 times better then Kolb is right now.

I don't think 3rd down percentage had anything to do with Orton. His running game only averaged 2.2 yards on first down from his own 20, and only 1.9 inside the redzone, and Coaches around the league know that 3rd and long all season is not your QBs fault. Its usually from a bad run game. Denver averaged almost 60 yards less a game then there opponents on the ground last season.

Orton didn't have any 3rd down options. He couldnt give it to the running game like Know Show Moreno, and he couldn't find anybody to get short yardage. The team lacks a good TE, and small ball option. Scheffler used to be that guy, but he is gone, and Denver always had a good TE in the passing game because of the roll out. Now those days are gone, and the talent with it.

chazoe60
08-03-2011, 11:23 AM
Orton is not great, it's absurd to call him great with his obvious flaws.

Not mobile
Bad under pressure
Bad on 3rd down
Bad when blitzed
Below average accuracy

Can't wait til the 2012 draft.

HammeredOut
08-03-2011, 11:25 AM
I've tried to explain this time and time again.

Orton doesn't throw an extremely deep ball, and if he does, who cares? That doesn't make him able to zip the ball in the tight windows....which is something he absolutely struggles at.

Orton's deep ball, and leading the league in passes over 20 yrds means DIDDLY. I guess when you are grasping for straws at something positive, you'll hold onto anything you can find.

Its called 281 yards a game in the air.

Or as gruden would call it. Almost a 300 burger in the air every game.

SOCALORADO.
08-03-2011, 11:27 AM
We're not that smart. We'll win 7 games and remove ourselves from the running for either of those players.

We are looking at having to bring in a QB like McNabb or something next year if we don't go with Tebow...

You're right, this is embarrassing. Our front office has been amateur hour for 3 years now. It seems like so long ago that we watched Jay Cutler and Eddie Royal absolutely DESTROY the Raiders in week 1.

No. NO!! We must hope for a 2 win season. Our Schedule is brutal. DEN can do this! We came so close last year, and with no new real FA players to speak of, and a new HC, DEN can suck balls.
Yes, folks its come to this.
Yes, its that bad.
Yes, we must start over.


http://beyondthebets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/luck.jpg
http://images.athlonsports.com/d/22426-1/BarkleyMatt4.JPG

rationalfan
08-03-2011, 11:29 AM
No. NO!! We must hope for a 2 win season. Our Schedule is brutal. DEN can do this! We came so close last year, and with no new real FA players to speak of, and a new HC, DEN can suck balls.
Yes, folks its come to this.
Yes, its that bad.
Yes, we must start over.

fine. then don't come here bitching after broncos losses.

topscribe
08-03-2011, 11:30 AM
anyone on here saying that Tebow is a better option than Orton right now is just a hater. I couldnt care less for either one of them but Orton is leaps and bounds better than Tebow. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

I really dont think it matters who we start anyway, this defense is so useless were not gonna win more than a few games anyway. So play Tebow, win 1 or 2 games and get another top 3 pick. This team is in a position most of us has never seen before.

They do that, Weaz, and they'll lose their locker room. That's what the Tebow
lovers and Orton haters cannot bring themselves to understand: The players
don't give a rat's derriere what the last name of the QB (or any other player)
is. They want the best player in there - the one who is most likely to help
them win games. That's all they care about. They could care less about
next year's draft. All they care about is the next game.

So reducing the player selection to a popularity contest is not the best way
to win friends and influence people in the locker room. Especially when Fox
has already promised, "The best players will play."

-----

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 11:31 AM
Its called 281 yards a game in the air.

Or as gruden would call it. Almost a 300 burger in the air every game.

Yeah. Its why Orton is considered one of the top in the NFL, and why the NFL people can't get enough of him. Its that lil cute number you like to throw up that makes all the GMs DIVE at getting him in hopes of making him their QB.

Strange how teams continue to only want him as their interm QB while they develope or find another. Weird how he continues to find himself either traded, or on the trading block.

Its CALLED.... knowing he isn't anything other than average at best, and your numbers mean squat. Or how Gruden would call it.... laying a burger to cover the shit.

weazel
08-03-2011, 11:50 AM
Yeah. Its why Orton is considered one of the top in the NFL, and why the NFL people can't get enough of him. Its that lil cute number you like to throw up that makes all the GMs DIVE at getting him in hopes of making him their QB.

Strange how teams continue to only want him as their interm QB while they develope or find another. Weird how he continues to find himself either traded, or on the trading block.

Its CALLED.... knowing he isn't anything other than average at best, and your numbers mean squat. Or how Gruden would call it.... laying a burger to cover the shit.

well... the league has 32 teams and there are only 5 or 6 legitimate really good QB's. So that means there are 26 other teams have the same type of QB as Orton.

SOCALORADO.
08-03-2011, 11:56 AM
fine. then don't come here bitching after broncos losses.

I wont bitch, as long as we draft 1 of these 2.
http://www.fanfestsports.com/store/images/andrew%20luck%202%20(Small).jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/340/727/picture_111_display_image.png?1281647057

NightTerror218
08-03-2011, 12:01 PM
well... the league has 32 teams and there are only 5 or 6 legitimate really good QB's. So that means there are 26 other teams have the same type of QB as Orton.

I would say there are more then that.....maybe 5 or 6 possible HOF QBs, but there are elite QBs and then there are good QBs.

Brees, Brady, Manning, Ryan, Rodgers, Rivers, and Roth are some of the elite QBs.

Good there is Flacco, Cutler, Vick, Manning, Schaub, Lil Manning, Romo

Up and coming Bradford, Freeman, Stafford (if healthy), and maybe Sanchez

All these QBs are the set future of their teams over half the league right there.

SOCALORADO.
08-03-2011, 12:05 PM
I would say there are more then that.....maybe 5 or 6 possible HOF QBs, but there are elite QBs and then there are good QBs.

Brees, Brady, Manning, Ryan, Rodgers, Rivers, and Roth are some of the elite QBs.

Good there is Flacco, Cutler, Vick, Manning, Schaub, Lil Manning, Romo

Up and coming Bradford, Freeman, Stafford (if healthy), and maybe Sanchez

All these QBs are the set future of their teams over half the league right there.

Right. Now DEN can go get their elite or good QB.

ELITE
http://www.fdynamo1986.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/andrew-luck-p1-237x300.jpg
GOOD
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/1593810/46655_USC__Minnesota_Football.jpg

MileHighCrew
08-03-2011, 12:10 PM
Right. Now DEN can go get their elite or good QB.

ELITE
http://www.fdynamo1986.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/andrew-luck-p1-237x300.jpg
GOOD
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/1593810/46655_USC__Minnesota_Football.jpg

We are going to have to be really bad to lose more games than The Redskins or the Bengals

SOCALORADO.
08-03-2011, 12:13 PM
We are going to have to be really bad to lose more games than The Redskins or the Bengals

I think DEN is closer to 2-14 than many think.
CIN just drated a QB. Hopefully he plays well.
WASH and BUF will give us a run for our money though.

MileHighCrew
08-03-2011, 12:23 PM
I think DEN is closer to 2-14 than many think.
CIN just drated a QB. Hopefully he plays well.
WASH and BUF will give us a run for our money though.

I am not saying Denver is going to be good but I think Wash and Cin have a chance to challenge the 08 Lions. I think Buf is a 3-4 win team

weazel
08-03-2011, 05:00 PM
I would say there are more then that.....maybe 5 or 6 possible HOF QBs, but there are elite QBs and then there are good QBs.

Brees, Brady, Manning, Ryan, Rodgers, Rivers, and Roth are some of the elite QBs.

Good there is Flacco, Cutler, Vick, Manning, Schaub, Lil Manning, Romo

Up and coming Bradford, Freeman, Stafford (if healthy), and maybe Sanchez

All these QBs are the set future of their teams over half the league right there.

I see nothing in Cutler that makes me think he is good. way too many mental mistakes, far too many overthrows and interceptions and the ultimate.... he feigned injury when it mattered most.

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 05:10 PM
well... the league has 32 teams and there are only 5 or 6 legitimate really good QB's. So that means there are 26 other teams have the same type of QB as Orton.

No. There may be only 6-7 elite guys, but then there is another 6 at the level below them, and orton isn't at that level either. He's proably in the third group of six, at the bottom.

So there is definitely about half the NFL that has better QBs, and about half that have worse. Which puts Orton right in the middle.... average.

Ravage!!!
08-03-2011, 05:12 PM
I see nothing in Cutler that makes me think he is good. way too many mental mistakes, far too many overthrows and interceptions and the ultimate.... he feigned injury when it mattered most.

Thats your opinion, but not mine. The "too many overthrows" is just silly, the mental mistakes went WAyyyyy down last year. Too many interceptions is just something Bronco fans love to throw around because it makes them feel bettter.... and the "Feigned" injury is just flat out BS.

Juriga72
08-03-2011, 05:13 PM
I see nothing in Cutler that makes me think he is good. way too many mental mistakes, far too many overthrows and interceptions and the ultimate.... he feigned injury when it mattered most.

Really..... Hmmmm You know this how? By what link 'ed proof do you have to shwo this. I can show you where the Bears doctors said "Yes.. he did have a partial tear of the MCL"

But then it would ruin your hate right?

Oh.. BTW.... When he scorched Seattle for those 4 touchdowns... NO ONE hd done that in a playoff game for 50 years.

NightTerror218
08-03-2011, 05:14 PM
I see nothing in Cutler that makes me think he is good. way too many mental mistakes, far too many overthrows and interceptions and the ultimate.... he feigned injury when it mattered most.

Culter just takes a lot of chances....he is why whiney but he is far better then Orton.....we could not get a 3rd for orton but we could get 2 1st rounders with Cutler.

weazel
08-03-2011, 06:36 PM
Culter just takes a lot of chances....he is why whiney but he is far better then Orton.....we could not get a 3rd for orton but we could get 2 1st rounders with Cutler.

I agree. Doesnt mean I would lump him in with the others that you did. Dude just seems to have a hollow head.

As for all the other Cutler lovers throwing a parade for him right now... he's gone and isn't coming back.

NightTerror218
08-03-2011, 06:37 PM
I agree. Doesnt mean I would lump him in with the others that you did. Dude just seems to have a hollow head.

he had pretty good 2008 and 2010

weazel
08-03-2011, 06:40 PM
he had pretty good 2008 and 2010

hey would I take him over Orton, &%#@ yeah! But it isnt going to happen.
I just dont think he's among he best.