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View Full Version : Bates versus Coyer ....



omac
10-01-2007, 05:17 AM
Anyone want to do a comparison?

The main complaint I heard about the defense under Coyer was a lack of an effective pass rush. Our pass rush seems to have improved greatly from then with Bates, but our run defense looks real bad.

I do remember the 49ers game last season, though, and our run defense didn't look great either.

Is our pass rush better with Bates? Was our run defense better with Coyer? Now in hindsight, would you rather have a good pass rush and a poor run defense, or a good run defense and a poor pass rush? :defense:

(added) I'm wondering if we'll get much better when Thomas and Crowder finally have their NFL feet under them.

sneakers
10-01-2007, 05:20 AM
I think it would be fair to wait until at least half-way through the season to start compare and contrasting the two.

Remember how our defense looked in the first half of last season compared to the second half?

dogfish
10-01-2007, 05:34 AM
they had a few bad games last year, but i think our run defense was better with al wilson, more so than larry coyer. . .

omac
10-01-2007, 05:39 AM
I think it would be fair to wait until at least half-way through the season to start compare and contrasting the two.

Remember how our defense looked in the first half of last season compared to the second half?

That's an excellent point. Some sportscasters were talking like we've become this defensive juggernaught, only to see it fall apart later in the season.

omac
10-01-2007, 05:41 AM
they had a few bad games last year, but i think our run defense was better with al wilson, more so than larry coyer. . .

Al Wilson is definitely missed right now. Hopefully, D.J. becomes just as good, and soon if possible.

xX-Bronco-Xx
10-01-2007, 06:26 AM
Yeah people are forgetting that running backs were having big days against the D last year too.

Hell LT broke the most TD's in a single year against us and Larry Johnson went wild. We are better off with Bates we just need the players.

gobroncsnv
10-01-2007, 07:01 AM
You can't forget that all the running against us last year came after we lost some important people... and in the latter half of the year, Al Wilson's tackling was nothing to write home about either. In the other thread where I mentioned Coyer, I used the phrase "WHEN WE WERE HEALTHY", it was really hard to run against our D. You can't just toss out that little tidbit and focus on our lousy second half of last year.

Medford Bronco
10-01-2007, 11:22 AM
they had a few bad games last year, but i think our run defense was better with al wilson, more so than larry coyer. . .

Agreed. Al Wilsons loss is hurting us the most.

The defensive line still sucks. Just like always unfortunatley :tsk:

DenBronx
10-01-2007, 12:17 PM
i think most of our players are taylor made for coyers style of defense not bates. coyer spent years trying to get the guys he liked here.

silkamilkamonico
10-01-2007, 12:33 PM
I'm extremely disappointed with Bates.

Unless something drastically changes, we'll finish the season having the worst defense we've had in 15+ years.

People that want to say he doesn't have his players, then I blame the copaching staff for throwing the season away by implementing a scheme when you don't have the personnel for it.

Denver trying to play defense is like watching the Baltimore Ravens trying to play offense. It just doesn't work.

lex
10-01-2007, 12:54 PM
Bates versus Coyer, eh...? Im not sure who would win. Is this in a fist fight or with battle axes?

Lonestar
10-01-2007, 01:07 PM
Agreed. Al Wilsons loss is hurting us the most.

The defensive line still sucks. Just like always unfortunatley :tsk:


While the loss of AL play calling is a big one I'd guess that he'd be slow making the call with eh new system also.

What Al brought to the table in instincts and reaction he gave BACK in his lack of tackling.

The problem that this Defense has and will continue to have is the lack of consistent clogging in the middle.

That will be solved by more meat in the middle. Until then, the tackling will happen 4-5 yards down field. After the LB's get freed from the blocks the OG and OT are putting on them.

It is a problem not soon to be fixed.

We unloaded two biggies because someone thought they were not excited about playing Bates system. perhaps this was a mistake cause the kiddies we now have have neither the experience or heft to do the job.

dogfish
10-01-2007, 01:29 PM
People that want to say he doesn't have his players, then I blame the copaching staff for throwing the season away by implementing a scheme when you don't have the personnel for it.


so what scheme works well when the DTs are getting blown off the ball nearly every play. . . . ??

Requiem / The Dagda
10-01-2007, 01:40 PM
Bates' tried every avenue from Sam Adams, to drafting three lineman, to trading for Big Daddy (who didn't show up) and Jimmy Kennedy and even signing Alvin McKinley, but you can only so much.

It'll take a while for the bleeding to stop. Denver could go after Starks and Haynesworth in free agency - but I know the Titans don't want both to go. I'd prefer Starks. He's an underrated defensive tackle in the league who is good against the run and makes a mark in the passing game. He'd be nice here in Denver. He isn't huge, but at 6'3 - 315 it's good enough, and he's better than who we have. Signing him or Haynesworth (even though he's a face stomper) would be good moves by the Broncos. Throw in young buck defensive tackle and you got yourself a start at bettering ourselves.

We could always trade for someone too, but who knows if that'll happen.

There are those two players in free agency, and about 3-6 quality prospects we have a shot at landing in the draft that can beef up the interior.

It'll take time folks. It did in Green Bay, and it will here. After that time (as painful as it might be) things will work.

omac
10-01-2007, 01:42 PM
What made the Colts' run defense last regular season horrible, and what made them excellent in the playoffs? Could something like that happen with the Broncos, or are our personel on D that bad?

dogfish
10-01-2007, 02:01 PM
What made the Colts' run defense last regular season horrible, and what made them excellent in the playoffs? Could something like that happen with the Broncos, or are our personel on D that bad?


changing personnel was what led to their improvement. . . the main thing was getting bob sanders, the heart and soul of their run D, back from injuries in time for the playoffs after he'd missed most of the regular season-- their D is night and day different when he's in there. . . also, they replaced the undersized and ineffective gilbert gardner at SAM with rob morris-- his footspeed isn't ideal for their D, but he was far more capable of taking on blocks and dealing with the TE than gardner, and was a far better tackler. . . also, DT booger mcfarland really started getting comfortable and stepping up his game. . . whether they did anything different schematically i don't know, but from dungy's comments at the time i don't think they did. . .

as their improvement came mainly from in-house personnel changes, i'm not so sure that we can duplicate it. . . certainly we should see SOME improvement as guys get more comfortable in bates' scheme, and as he continues to determine what our personnel can and can't do, but i myself think our sorry DTs are going to really limit what we can do unless a few of them really improve their level of play. . . what we can or will do in terms of adjusting the scheme, i think it's pretty hard to say. . . i'd like to see us crowd the LOS and bring more run blitzes, but even when we've played eight in the box this year it hasn't seemed to help. . .


:noidea:

Lonestar
10-01-2007, 02:18 PM
changing personnel was what led to their improvement. . . the main thing was getting bob sanders, the heart and soul of their run D, back from injuries in time for the playoffs after he'd missed most of the regular season-- their D is night and day different when he's in there. . . also, they replaced the undersized and ineffective gilbert gardner at SAM with rob morris-- his footspeed isn't ideal for their D, but he was far more capable of taking on blocks and dealing with the TE than gardner, and was a far better tackler. . . also, DT booger mcfarland really started getting comfortable and stepping up his game. . . whether they did anything different schematically i don't know, but from dungy's comments at the time i don't think they did. . .

as their improvement came mainly from in-house personnel changes, i'm not so sure that we can duplicate it. . . certainly we should see SOME improvement as guys get more comfortable in bates' scheme, and as he continues to determine what our personnel can and can't do, but i myself think our sorry DTs are going to really limit what we can do unless a few of them really improve their level of play. . . what we can or will do in terms of adjusting the scheme, i think it's pretty hard to say. . . i'd like to see us crowd the LOS and bring more run blitzes, but even when we've played eight in the box this year it hasn't seemed to help. . .


:noidea:

When the OLINE guys out weighs the DT nine times of ten the OLINE will win especially when there are 5 on the OLINE (6 or 7 with the addition of TE's) and 4 or less on the DLINE.
Simple physic's.

TXBRONC
10-01-2007, 02:25 PM
Al Wilson is definitely missed right now. Hopefully, D.J. becomes just as good, and soon if possible.

I think D.J. doing fine its up front where we are getting our heads handed to us. Also our linebackers are usually lined up deep than they have in the past.

omac
10-01-2007, 03:01 PM
changing personnel was what led to their improvement. . . the main thing was getting bob sanders, the heart and soul of their run D, back from injuries in time for the playoffs after he'd missed most of the regular season-- their D is night and day different when he's in there. . . also, they replaced the undersized and ineffective gilbert gardner at SAM with rob morris-- his footspeed isn't ideal for their D, but he was far more capable of taking on blocks and dealing with the TE than gardner, and was a far better tackler. . . also, DT booger mcfarland really started getting comfortable and stepping up his game. . . whether they did anything different schematically i don't know, but from dungy's comments at the time i don't think they did. . .

as their improvement came mainly from in-house personnel changes, i'm not so sure that we can duplicate it. . . certainly we should see SOME improvement as guys get more comfortable in bates' scheme, and as he continues to determine what our personnel can and can't do, but i myself think our sorry DTs are going to really limit what we can do unless a few of them really improve their level of play. . . what we can or will do in terms of adjusting the scheme, i think it's pretty hard to say. . . i'd like to see us crowd the LOS and bring more run blitzes, but even when we've played eight in the box this year it hasn't seemed to help. . .


:noidea:

Cool info, thanks. :cheers:

I'm hoping Thomas is as good as he was projected to be, and that he plays at a high level soon. Crowder was supposed to be good against the run in college, so hopefully he contributes big soon.

I was never expecting a dominating defense, but I did expect at least a competent one. Right now, if our personel can step up and become at least an average or even slightly below average defense agains the run, then this team can be dangerous. That, and for Sauerbrun to kick a lot of touchbacks to keep our special teams from giving opponents midfield yardage. :D

Taking it all into consideration, our offense is doing really well; the defense keeps them off the field, and when they do get on the field, they usually start with poor field possition.

omac
10-01-2007, 03:03 PM
I think D.J. doing fine its up front where we are getting our heads handed to us. Also our linebackers are usually lined up deep than they have in the past.

Guess they're also trying to prevent huge rushing gains. :D

silkamilkamonico
10-01-2007, 03:44 PM
so what scheme works well when the DTs are getting blown off the ball nearly every play. . . . ??

None do, but 2 years ago when we had a healthy Warren, our DT's rarely got blown off the ball.

We had a very good run stopping defense. I never thought I'd say I miss the Browncos interior Dlinemen so much.

LoyalSoldier
10-01-2007, 04:43 PM
Our run defense is largely coming from bad tackling. The line play wouldn't matter nearly as much if the guys who actually have a shot at the RB would wrap up and tackle. I.E. Lamont Jordan in OT against the Raiders.

TXBRONC
10-01-2007, 05:17 PM
One of the reasons we were better at stopping the run Coyers is that DE were not split out as wide from offensive tackle.

Ther other reason is one LS mentioned we're doing horrible job tackling people.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-01-2007, 05:19 PM
What made the Colts' run defense last regular season horrible, and what made them excellent in the playoffs? Could something like that happen with the Broncos, or are our personel on D that bad?

The loss of Al Wilson hurt us more than most realized (but are realizing it now). Sure, Al missed tackles from time to time like anyone else, but he was rarely out of position. He was a master at closing gaps up the middle and forcing the RB to change direction and either try to bounce outside or just run into the back of the O-line. Ian Gold and all his "speed" is vastly overrated because let's face it, he's just not a good tackler (too small, over pursues, and tries to arm tackle or go high too much) and isn't great in coverage, either (as evidenced by the fact that we always used to play "big nickel" against the better TEs (Gonzales, Gates, etc) because Ian just couldn't handle the job. There are smaller OLBs out there (Derrick Brooks, Cato June) but they are good tacklers and excellent cover guys...Ian is neither.

Right now, the defense is having a HUGE problem with gap control. All the LBs run to one point (where the ball carrier should be) and then get caught ridiculously out of position when he cuts back or changes direction. Or they end up being blocked into each other which results in one blocker blocking two LBs. They are extremely undisciplined in pursuit and are displaying poor form when tackling (or should I say, attempting to tackle). Maybe Champ needs to hold a little clinic for them and show them how to wrap up or something.

Either way, if it doesn't get better and the light doesn't come on for the defense soon, it's going to be a long year of watching guys rack up 200 yd games against us. The keys right now are discipline, staying in their gaps, and freaking tackling. It's up to the players to do this. I guarantee they have been taught this since High School football, they just aren't doing it. :tsk:

Watchthemiddle
10-01-2007, 05:27 PM
Our run defense is largely coming from bad tackling. The line play wouldn't matter nearly as much if the guys who actually have a shot at the RB would wrap up and tackle. I.E. Lamont Jordan in OT against the Raiders.

BINGO!!!!

:cool:

Skinny
10-01-2007, 05:34 PM
The loss of Al Wilson hurt us more than most realized (but are realizing it now). Sure, Al missed tackles from time to time like anyone else, but he was rarely out of position. He was a master at closing gaps up the middle and forcing the RB to change direction and either try to bounce outside or just run into the back of the O-line. Ian Gold and all his "speed" is vastly overrated because let's face it, he's just not a good tackler (too small, over pursues, and tries to arm tackle or go high too much) and isn't great in coverage, either (as evidenced by the fact that we always used to play "big nickel" against the better TEs (Gonzales, Gates, etc) because Ian just couldn't handle the job. There are smaller OLBs out there (Derrick Brooks, Cato June) but they are good tacklers and excellent cover guys...Ian is neither.

Right now, the defense is having a HUGE problem with gap control. All the LBs run to one point (where the ball carrier should be) and then get caught ridiculously out of position when he cuts back or changes direction. Or they end up being blocked into each other which results in one blocker blocking two LBs. They are extremely undisciplined in pursuit and are displaying poor form when tackling (or should I say, attempting to tackle). Maybe Champ needs to hold a little clinic for them and show them how to wrap up or something.

Either way, if it doesn't get better and the light doesn't come on for the defense soon, it's going to be a long year of watching guys rack up 200 yd games against us. The keys right now are discipline, staying in their gaps, and freaking tackling. It's up to the players to do this. I guarantee they have been taught this since High School football, they just aren't doing it. :tsk:Great post 56. You hit on alot of key points.

The biggest thing i've noticed with the LBs up to now, is that their not run blitzing gaps as much as i thought they would.

And being a Bates defense, that really suprises me.

gobroncsnv
10-01-2007, 06:36 PM
so what scheme works well when the DTs are getting blown off the ball nearly every play. . . . ??

Not many, but you do fare better when you have decent LB's to fill gaps instead of overrun them.

Tom33
10-01-2007, 08:09 PM
Very true about the LB's. I really thought they should have picked up trotter when they had the chance at least he will stick his head in there and fill some gaps.

TXBRONC
10-01-2007, 08:19 PM
Very true about the LB's. I really thought they should have picked up trotter when they had the chance at least he will stick his head in there and fill some gaps.


Last I heard Trotter has arthritis in one or both of his his knees.

dogfish
10-01-2007, 11:13 PM
Not many, but you do fare better when you have decent LB's to fill gaps instead of overrun them.

i have a very strong feeling that we'll be spending a high draft pick on a linebacker next year. . .

BigBroncLove
10-01-2007, 11:14 PM
i have a very strong feeling that we'll be spending a high draft pick on a linebacker next year. . .

Works for me, so long as DT gets attention in FA or Draft day as well....

TXBRONC
10-02-2007, 07:13 AM
The only problem is that DT like wide receivers take time to develop.

Medford Bronco
10-02-2007, 08:21 AM
The only problem is that DT like wide receivers take time to develop.

Unless you get Richard Seymour who was great as a rookie or even Vince Wilfork another stud from the beginning

Lonestar
10-02-2007, 10:58 AM
Unless you get Richard Seymour who was great as a rookie or even Vince Wilfork another stud from the beginning

DO you suppose it is them or perhaps the system they are in. I can't think of any big draft choice bust in their franchise since billy took over.

Either billy is putting them into a great system or they are just absolutely the cream of the crop or perhaps it is both.

TXBRONC
10-02-2007, 11:00 AM
Unless you get Richard Seymour who was great as a rookie or even Vince Wilfork another stud from the beginning


Very true, but is there anyone lwho might be like in the upcoming draft?