Holliday Traded

[Buff]

Everyone's reporting a deal has been reached in principle between the Rockies and A's for the A's to get Holliday, a future hall of famer...

The players the Rockies will receive are still being worked out-- but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the mediocre players we receive in return won't come close to matching Holliday's production...

One more reason every Rockies fan should pray the Monfort's will sell this team. They operate like a small market team despite living in a large market and having the money to do more....

I ******* hate the Rockies front office. Hate them.

[Buff]

Rockies deal Holliday to A's
By Troy Renck
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 11/10/2008 02:41:25 PM MST

Sitting in Laguna Beach on Monday morning, Matt Holliday was surprised to learn that the Oakland Athletics were aggressively pursuing him. He was intrigued by the fit. The scenario became reality around 12:30 MST when the Rockies' three-time All-Star received phone calls from Colorado general manager Dan O'Dowd followed by Oakland GM Billy Beane informing him of the deal.

The Rockies have agreed to send Holliday to Oakland for three players, likely including either outfielder Carlos Gonzalez or pitcher Greg Smith among others, pending physicals.

Holliday told The Denver Post that he "thinks the deal is done."

He will travel to Oakland on Tuesday to meet with A's officials.

"I can't tell you how much I've appreciated the way my family and I were treated in Denver. By people behind the scenes in the organization and by the fans," Holliday said Monday afternnon. "Hopefully they will be fans of me wherever I play. But I will always have a special place in my heart for what happened in Colorado, especially in 2007."

Holliday has been bracing for his exit over the last few weeks as the Rockies have aggressively tried to trade him. As first reported by The Denver Post last week, Oakland and Philadelphia were the front-runners before St. Louis made a late charge. The Cardinals' deal collapsed over the weekend, namely because the Rockies were going to receive outfielders Ryan Ludwick and Skip Schumaker when their primary need is pitching depth.

Holliday temporary relocated to Southern California this winter to train after the Rockies fired strength coach and close friend Brad Andress. He knew this day would likely come after the team's effort to sign him to a longterm contract fizzled last spring.

The Rockies offered him a four-year, $72-million extension with a fifth-year player option at $12 million. Combined with his completed arbitration contract, the deal totaled $107 million. However, the four-year deal as a free agent is far short of what players have Holliday's stature have received on the open market where he is viewed by many as a $150-million player.
Holliday also worried that if he took the money the Rockies' money they might strip the team around him.

"As an athlete approaching free agency and making decisions about somewhere where you want to be longterm, you have to consider more aspects than money. I have a wife, and kids to consider. And I don't want to be in a position where I don't have a chance to win," Holliday said.

"It might be great the first year (with the new contract), but then you start going through years of Septembers where games don't mean anything and that would be absolutely no fun."

Oakland was first reported as a possibility because of its restocked farm system. Following multiple trades over the past few seasons, including a monster deal with Arizona involving pitcher Dan Haren, the A's have enough young players to deal away without crushing their minor-league depth.

Smith, Gonzalez and closer Huston Street have all come up in various trade talks over the past few weeks.

Such BS. This team is a joke. Dan O'Dowd is a joke. The Monforts are worthless...

Greg Smith was something like 7-16 last year with a 4. something ERA... I don't even feel like looking up anything on the other guys...

We may as well just close Coors Field down and forfeit all of our games if we have no interest in being competitive...

[Broncospsycho77]

That's bullshit.

What happened to the deal with the Cardinals?

[Buff]

That's bullshit.

What happened to the deal with the Cardinals?


The Cardinals' deal collapsed over the weekend, namely because the Rockies were going to receive outfielders Ryan Ludwick and Skip Schumaker when their primary need is pitching depth.

Sounds like none of the deals were worth taking to me. I would have rather we kept him and seen if someone got desperate around the deadline-- and if not, at least we'd get one more year out of him and then be compensated via draft picks when he walked in free agency... Better than rushing a deal for some hacks.

[Kapaibro]

I'll miss his passion for the game. he has really worked hard to be a better OF

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Snap told me this before I had class.

Sucks balls.

Now the Mariners have to pitch to him. :(

[Buff]

Snap told me this before I had class.

Sucks balls.

Now the Mariners have to pitch to him. :(

The Rockies are a joke. I'm gonna be ashamed to buy a ticket next season and support that franchise.

[ChampWJ]

This does suck, but Street can be pretty dominant when healthy and A's fans seem to be a bit uneasy at losing this Gonzalez kid. Classic salary dump.

Street is by far the best player the Rox got in return.

[ChampWJ]

Huston Street was AL Rookie of the Year in 2005. He had 23 saves that year with a 1.72 ERA. He followed it up with 37 saves in 2006. He started to get a few nagging injuries after that, and lost his closer job last season but still had a good year statistically. He has 271 k's in 269 career innings, which is a really good stat to look at for closers. Also, for his career, opponents have only batted .215 against him, another good stat.

He has been considered one of the top pitching prospects in the league for several seasons, and should replace Fuentes really nicely.

Edit: Street was a first round pick of the A's in 2004 and pitched in all of 12 minor league games before taking over as Oakland's closer in 2005.

[MOtorboat]

Trading with the A's is usually a losing proposition...

[ChampWJ]

Trading with the A's is usually a losing proposition...

They can be had though. Look at what Atlanta had to give up for Tim Hudson.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947892

I still think they could/should have gotten more for Holliday. I am trying to research these prospects still. This Gonzalez kid came over to Oakland from Arizona in the Dan Haren trade last year.

[ChampWJ]

Carlos Gonzalez has been a pretty highly touted prospect for 2 franchises.

Prospect Rankings*
2006 - 32nd ranked Major League prospect
2006 - 4th ranked organizational prospect for Arizona Diamondbacks
2007 - 18th ranked Major League prospect
2007 - 3rd ranked organizational prospect for Arizona Diamondbacks
2008 - 1st ranked organizational prospect for Arizona Diamondbacks
2008 - 22nd ranked Major League prospect
2008 - 1st ranked organizational prospect for Oakland Athletics

*According to Baseball America

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Carlos-Gonzalez-4.shtml

[MOtorboat]

They can be had though. Look at what Atlanta had to give up for Tim Hudson.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947892

I still think they could/should have gotten more for Holliday. I am trying to research these prospects still. This Gonzalez kid came over to Oakland from Arizona in the Dan Haren trade last year.

Here's the good news if its Gonzalez:
%ilar things were said about Upton before his explosive 2007 campaign. However, Gonzalez doesn't have quite the same degree of talent that he can afford to coast. On a more tangible level, he needs to have a plan every time he goes to the plate, so he doesn't expand his strike zone and get himself out. He gets himself in trouble when he tries to pull the ball too much. He's still an erratic defender, leading the high Class A California and Double-A Southern league in outfield miscues the last two years with 12 each time.

The Future: Arizona had no outfield openings with Eric Byrnes, Chris Young and Upton on hand, but Gonzalez will find opportunity easier to come by in Oakland. He's already knocking on the door of the big leagues at age 22, and the only given in the A's outfield is that Travis Buck will be one of the three starters, most likely in left field. Gonzalez would benefit from a half-season at Triple-A Sacramento, but he could win a starting job in center or right field during spring training. Long term, Oakland envisions Gonzalez batting in the middle of its lineup for years to come.[/QUOTE]


Club (League) Class AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS SH SF GIDP OBP SLG OPS
Sacramento (PCL) AAA .283 46 173 23 49 9 1 4 28 16 35 1 1 0 0 5 .344 .416 .760
Oakland (AL) MAJ .242 85 302 31 73 22 1 4 26 13 81 4 1 1 0 7 .273 .361 .634
Major League Totals .242 85 302 31 73 22 1 4 26 13 81 4 1 1 0 7 .273 .361 .634

[Buff]

I ******* hate this move. I get more and more mad every time I think about it...

**** the Rockies. **** the Monforts. **** Dan O'Dowd. This kind of thing should be criminal. They finally have a homegrown superstar, potential Hall of Famer, and they ******* trade him for a slightly above average closer and 2 other shmucks... All because they're too ******* cheap to sign him.

I am not going to buy a ticket next year. **** them. It's not gonna make any difference, but I'm ******* boycotting this team. If they're too cheap to sign talented players, then I'm too cheap to go to the ballpark.

[MOtorboat]

They can be had though. Look at what Atlanta had to give up for Tim Hudson.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947892

I still think they could/should have gotten more for Holliday. I am trying to research these prospects still. This Gonzalez kid came over to Oakland from Arizona in the Dan Haren trade last year.

Here's the good news if its Gonzalez:

He was the No. 1 prospect, according to Baseball America in 2008.


Background: Gonzalez burst onto the prospect scene by winning the low Class A Midwest League MVP award in 2005, and he has followed that with two straight appearances in the Futures Game. He also was Baseball America's Winter Player of the Year after the 2006 season, batting .318/.393/.530 with nine home runs in 198 at-bats in his native Venezuela. Now his biggest claim to fame is being the best prospect in the six-player package the Diamondbacks used to pry Dan Haren from Oakland. In 2007, Gonzalez got off to his traditional slow start, batting .210 in April before coming around later in the season, batting .335 with eight of his nine homers in the final two months. Scouts loved working Double-A Mobile games when both Justin Upton and Gonzalez were in the outfield, as the two seemed to play off each other and enjoyed a friendly rivalry at the plate and in the field.

Strengths: Gonzalez lacks nothing in the way of physical tools. He has tremendous bat speed, with a pure easiness to his swing that generates plus raw power to all fields. The strength and leverage in his natural inside-out stroke make the ball jump off his bat. A prototype right fielder, he has an above-average arm and enough speed to play in center field if need be—and in fact he played there quite a bit when Upton was with Mobile. Gonzalez is becoming more comfortable in right field as he gets more time there, learning better routes and whether to uncork a rocket or just hit the cutoff man. In general, his feel for the game has improved.

Weaknesses: Scouts and managers often have been turned off by Gonzalez' approach to the game, accusing him of giving away at-bats or not hustling at times. The Diamondbacks believed it was more an issue of immaturity and lack of focus than a result of makeup. They viewed him as a bright, outgoing person who wants to be a star and say some people have mistaken confidence for arrogance. Interestingly, similar things were said about Upton before his explosive 2007 campaign. However, Gonzalez doesn't have quite the same degree of talent that he can afford to coast. On a more tangible level, he needs to have a plan every time he goes to the plate, so he doesn't expand his strike zone and get himself out. He gets himself in trouble when he tries to pull the ball too much. He's still an erratic defender, leading the high Class A California and Double-A Southern league in outfield miscues the last two years with 12 each time.

The Future: Arizona had no outfield openings with Eric Byrnes, Chris Young and Upton on hand, but Gonzalez will find opportunity easier to come by in Oakland. He's already knocking on the door of the big leagues at age 22, and the only given in the A's outfield is that Travis Buck will be one of the three starters, most likely in left field. Gonzalez would benefit from a half-season at Triple-A Sacramento, but he could win a starting job in center or right field during spring training. Long term, Oakland envisions Gonzalez batting in the middle of its lineup for years to come.

He was signed six years ago out of Venezuela and is 23 years old. He's definitely big-league ready, and would immediately replace Holliday in the outfield.


Club (League) Class AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS SH SF GIDP OBP SLG OPS
Sacramento (PCL) AAA .283 46 173 23 49 9 1 4 28 16 35 1 1 0 0 5 .344 .416 .760
Oakland (AL) MAJ .242 85 302 31 73 22 1 4 26 13 81 4 1 1 0 7 .273 .361 .634
Major League Totals .242 85 302 31 73 22 1 4 26 13 81 4 1 1 0 7 .273 .361 .634

Smith and Street worry me a little more. If this is the trade, I like it a lot, but if its Holliday for Smith and Street or some combination not including Gonzalez, I really don't like it.

I gotta admit I wasn't paying enough attention to Royals games to watch closely enough to care about one of the A's prospects when the Royals played him, but he certainly has a lot of talent.

The thing is, his power numbers have never been that good...doubles power, really...and he may hit two-hole, or he may hit seven or six-hole, but you're trading away a solid, middle-of-the-order slugger for an average guy. He did hit 16 homers in Mobile in 2007, but he strikes out a lot.

[MOtorboat]

Whoops, somehow I posted half of that post a little while ago...:confused:

[Benetto]

Holliday is a prospective MVP before he retires....He is one of those players you build around...Not trade for more potential Matt Holliday's..

BAD, BAD move imho...

I feel for you rockies fans...

[MOtorboat]

Holliday is a prospective MVP before he retires....He is one of those players you build around...Not trade for more potential Matt Holliday's..

BAD, BAD move imho...

I feel for you rockies fans...

It's just typical small-market BS...surprised the A's were the trade partner, though. That is kind of interesting.

If its Gonzalez, its at least a top prospect.

The Rockies gave him a pretty good deal, it just wasn't 10 years, $20 mil per...So his dick-ass agent Boras tells him to decline it.

Boras is a money-grubbing whore, and it tells me, unfortunately, Matt is too. If he wanted to be great he'd of signed the deal and made himself a home in Colorado and become the greatest Rockie ever. But, he didn't...

Seriously, WTF are you gonna do with $20 mil per? I mean, seriously? What's the difference between $18 and $20. That's just ***EDIT*** ridiculous.

[ChampWJ]

As much as it would be nice to have signed Holliday long term, the Rockies either couldn't or chose not to. Might as well get a couple top prospects back in return. I think they might have gotten more for him had they waited until mid-season but that also includes risking him getting hurt. Trading all-star players usually doesn't kill franchises. Look at how the Marlins built their 2nd world series team, and then they traded away all those players and have a nice little stockpile of young talent they got in return.

The one thing I don't like about trades like this is you are trading a proven commodity and fan favorite for unproven players no one knows much about. Fans don't usually like the trades at first, but you just have to be patient and let the talent develop. We won't know how this trade pans out for the Rockies for several seasons. One thing it does do is frees up a lot of salary for them to spend locking up other players or signing free agents.

I'm a Braves fan, and I believe the Rockies got more in return for Holliday than Atlanta did for Mark Teixeira earlier this year, and one could argue Teixeira is a better all around player. He is about to cash in on a huge contract thanks to his agent, the infamous Scott Boras.

[Buff]

As much as it would be nice to have signed Holliday long term, the Rockies either couldn't or chose not to. Might as well get a couple top prospects back in return. I think they might have gotten more for him had they waited until mid-season but that also includes risking him getting hurt. Trading all-star players usually doesn't kill franchises. Look at how the Marlins built their 2nd world series team, and then they traded away all those players and have a nice little stockpile of young talent they got in return.

The one thing I don't like about trades like this is you are trading a proven commodity and fan favorite for unproven players no one knows much about. Fans don't usually like the trades at first, but you just have to be patient and let the talent develop. We won't know how this trade pans out for the Rockies for several seasons. One thing it does do is frees up a lot of salary for them to spend locking up other players or signing free agents.

I'm a Braves fan, and I believe the Rockies got more in return for Holliday than Atlanta did for Mark Teixeira earlier this year, and one could argue Teixeira is a better all around player. He is about to cash in on a huge contract thanks to his agent, the infamous Scott Boras.

That's the part I reject... You don't "choose" not to sign a once-in-a-decade franchise player, and potential HOF'er. Especially when you're in a mid to large sized market in Colorado. Don't let anyone convince you Colorado is a "small market" team.

It's crap, and the fact that the Monforts are too cheap to sign him (or anyone else for that matter) makes me sick as a fan. That's the thing, if they were freeing up money to go sign a top-tier starting pitcher, then by all means I'd understand. But they're just freeing up money for their profit margin... Not to sign anybody of real value.

It's a recurring theme, and we are destined to make the World Series once every 20 years when we can reel off 30 in a row to end the season. Then we'll lose, because we don't pay pitchers (or hitters, apparently).

[BroncoAV06]

Definitely not happy about this. Atkins will be gone soon as well so it will be up to Tulo and Stewart to carry this team, then they will trade Stewart, etc.. never ending cycle.

Smith is a decent prospect, Street is legit, and Gonzales has potential, and it is interesting with Fowler in the outfield can you have two outfielders that are built more for speed? Interesting to see how that works out.

I am not in the mood to dive into this and try and look at the bright side at the mometn, just upset. Helton deal scared them from giving Holliday big bucks for sure.

[Timmy!]

It sucks, but we all knew it was going to happen. I was surprised that Holliday even finished last season in a Rockies uniform. I hate the ownership as well, but the writing has been on the wall for months.

[MOtorboat]

It sucks, but we all knew it was going to happen. I was surprised that Holliday even finished last season in a Rockies uniform. I hate the ownership as well, but the writing has been on the wall for months.

He probably was worth more on the trade deadline than he was in the off-season deal...

Just saying...

[Timmy!]

He probably was worth more on the trade deadline than he was in the off-season deal...

Just saying...

I agree. Too bad the NL west was so pathetic that the Rocks still had a chance and wanted to keep him for a possible run......

[Benetto]

I still can't comprehend what logic went into this move? I am glad we don't have to face the Dodger killer any more, but this was a blow to my fellow Broncos fans...I can't help but to feel bad for you guys. :salute:

[Rick]

#$#$#$#%$%^%^

[Medford Bronco]

Everyone's reporting a deal has been reached in principle between the Rockies and A's for the A's to get Holliday, a future hall of famer...

The players the Rockies will receive are still being worked out-- but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the mediocre players we receive in return won't come close to matching Holliday's production...

One more reason every Rockies fan should pray the Monfort's will sell this team. They operate like a small market team despite living in a large market and having the money to do more....

I ******* hate the Rockies front office. Hate them.

Buff that sucks man.

I feel bad for the Rocky fans I really do.

[Medford Bronco]

I still can't comprehend what logic went into this move? I am glad we don't have to face the Dodger killer any more, but this was a blow to my fellow Broncos fans...I can't help but to feel bad for you guys. :salute:

now if we can only get SD to get rid of Peavy then we'd be all set Benetto


and for the Rox fans. This is not a good day and I really feel for you honestly

[ChampWJ]

No one will be crying when the "potential HOF'er" and "once in a decade franchise player" plateaus outside Coors Field and starts the downside of his career, and Street/Gonzalez are making all-star teams or have been traded to acquire other impact players. That might not happen but the possibility is there for this trade to pan out that way.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Rockies and Holliday was a great player, but I feel his stardom was a little overstated by the fans. I have more respect for a lesser player willing to give the team that gave him a chance a discount than any Scott Boras ($$$$ above all) client.

This is just the way baseball has gotten. As a Braves fan, I have grown accustomed to watching our best players either leave as free agents or be traded. Maddux, Drew, Sheffield, Teixeira, Furcal, Justice, etc. You can't always keep every all star or every fan favorite. You just have to try and get what you can to replace them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Medford Bronco]

Huston Street was AL Rookie of the Year in 2005. He had 23 saves that year with a 1.72 ERA. He followed it up with 37 saves in 2006. He started to get a few nagging injuries after that, and lost his closer job last season but still had a good year statistically. He has 271 k's in 269 career innings, which is a really good stat to look at for closers. Also, for his career, opponents have only batted .215 against him, another good stat.

He has been considered one of the top pitching prospects in the league for several seasons, and should replace Fuentes really nicely.

Edit: Street was a first round pick of the A's in 2004 and pitched in all of 12 minor league games before taking over as Oakland's closer in 2005.


I think the Rox got 40 cents on the dollar. Street is okay and Gonzales is a propect. Holliday is a beast and one of the best 5 hitters in baseball.

[ChampWJ]

I think the Rox got 40 cents on the dollar. Street is okay and Gonzales is a propect. Holliday is a beast and one of the best 5 hitters in baseball.

That may be true, but it's the way the trade market has become. Atlanta got less talent for Teixeira, and he's arguably a better all around player. Even if Holliday were a top 5 hitter (which he probably isn't because of Coors Field and the protection he had in the lineup) there is no way the Rockies could pay him top 5 money. Nor would they, it is not a good practice to have 75% of a teams' salary committed to a small percentage of the players.

And like it or not, the Rockies are a small-market team. Not because of the market they play in, or their fanbase. Because that is the way their ownership group has behaved for years. They've been more about turning a profit than putting a winning product on the field since they took over, despite which they have had some decent teams. They were burned by past free-agents and decided to go another route, thus avoiding large contracts for the most part. This is just another example they intend to stick to that model. It can be, and has been done successfully by countless teams in the league and not always to the delight of the fans.

[Broncospsycho77]

Many are right; it's just a never ending cycle with the Rocks.

Foster player from nowhere, grow him in a perfect farm league atmosphere, move him to CO Springs to see if a jump can be made, gradually test and give role, have a breakout season, get traded to major franchise for crap, and more draft picks. Why don't we compete?

The only worthwhile players who didn't follow this trend were Helton (because he resisted the trades) and Larry Walker, who ultimately was traded anyway, just after making an impact. Just when I thought the Rockies were about to be relevant in the MLB.

When will they try to win?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You guys could have done a lot worse. See what the M's gave up for Erik Bedard and how that debacle turned out.

[CoachChaz]

It wasnt horrible for Colorado, but it was great for Oakland. They get a nice piece to the middle of the lineup and if they aren't competetive, they can dea him at the deadline and get a shitload in return. Or...they can keep him for the playoff run and get compensation for him if he leaves via FA.

[Buff]

It wasnt horrible for Colorado, but it was great for Oakland. They get a nice piece to the middle of the lineup and if they aren't competetive, they can dea him at the deadline and get a shitload in return. Or...they can keep him for the playoff run and get compensation for him if he leaves via FA.

Correction. It is horrible for Colorado.

Terrible deal that only gets worse the more I hear about it.

[CoachChaz]

Correction. It is horrible for Colorado.

Terrible deal that only gets worse the more I hear about it.

How? They cut payroll and get some solid players in return for a guy that may not have come back anyway. If they want to pay his price, they can try to bring him back next winter. They werent' going to be extremely competetive this year anyway, so why not get a few kids to build the future.

[Rick]

Does Ian Stewart have OF ability?

If Helton comes back strong then I could see Ian in the OF if he can play it. Unless of course they would deal Atkins.

Baker can play OF but hitting wise i think Ian has greater potential.

Theyre is always Spilborghs as well but i personally prefer him in a bacup role.

Holiday really sucks to lose, he was a great player for Colorado, I will never forget the slide...

We do still have the hitting talent to compete though but depends on if they can fit in defensively.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I just heard on one of the local sports casts, that the Rockies are now working on a trade with Cincinnati, which will send Adkins, Tavares, and Yorbi there. Did not say what the Rockies would get in return, but I am betting on the Cincinnati Reds mascot, one of their bat boys, and their official scorer.:tsk:

[Rick]

Must be the monforts did not want to be outdone by thew Camby deal this year...

Argh, I hate cost cutting deals.

We have trmendous depth normally on the Rocks with the young guys but that is quickly beggining to fade...

[Buff]

How? They cut payroll and get some solid players in return for a guy that may not have come back anyway. If they want to pay his price, they can try to bring him back next winter. They werent' going to be extremely competetive this year anyway, so why not get a few kids to build the future.

I'll hold my final judgement until a year or two from now once we see if Huston Street stays in a rockies uniform... But I can tell you based on their career stats, none of them measure up to half the player Holliday is. Holliday is a machine-- clutch hitter, hits with power, can drive the ball to the opposite field...

And of course we're not gonna be extremely competitive this year-- when you let your best player get away for nothing, you let your best bullpen pitcher leave via free agency, and you trade trade Atkins for more youth...

It's a crap move, because they're not building towards anything. If they were looking to save money so they could stockpile talent, that would be one thing-- But it's a never ending cycle where the Rockies stockpile talent, until they reach their potential, then we let them go play for someone else so we can get younger...

The Rockies are a worse team now than they were last week.

[CoachChaz]

I guess since I'm not a homer, I can see it differently. Holliday is a great player, but the Rox can afford to lose a hitter. A closer like Street is a commodity and Smith and Gonzalez have alot of potential.

Ian Stewart makes Atkins expendible and if they can get young talent in return...why not? Dexter Fowler is also on his way.

So, there is plenty of youth available and maybe more to come to improve this team. I dont think the loss of Holliday will hurt the Rox too much other than fans losing their favorite

[In-com-plete]

Being a Dodger fan, I'm glad he's gone. But being a baseball fan, I'm sad for the fans that they "gave" him away like that. It's this kind of shit that turns people away from the game.

To make this trade with the A's is crazy. If it's me, I never ever make a trade with the A's. Rarely does the other team come out ahead.

Now for you Rockie's fans, sure Holliday is a great hitter. But he's really not as good as everyone thinks. Let me take that back, he is as good as everyone thinks in Colorado. But he's an average hitter outside of Coors.

During his career, Holliday hit .357 at home and .280 on the road. He has 84 career HRs at Coors and 44 on the road. His slugging percentage is .645 at home and .455 on the road.

Do those numbers surprise anyone? Not me. I will always, ALWAYS, be skeptical of Rockies players and their stats. Call me an idiot, call me whatever. But you have Vinny Castilla and Larry Walker to blame for that one. Even Garrett Atkins (who's hit 77 points higher at Coors over his career) and Helton (68 points higher at Coors) to an extent.

Anyway, expect his numbers to drop considerably this year. Look for about a .285 average with 20 HRs and about 85 RBI's. About JJ Hardy, Torri Hunter, Mark Derosa, and Geovany Soto numbers from this past season.

[CoachChaz]

Being a Dodger fan, I'm glad he's gone. But being a baseball fan, I'm sad for the fans that they "gave" him away like that. It's this kind of shit that turns people away from the game.

To make this trade with the A's is crazy. If it's me, I never ever make a trade with the A's. Rarely does the other team come out ahead.

Now for you Rockie's fans, sure Holliday is a great hitter. But he's really not as good as everyone thinks. Let me take that back, he is as good as everyone thinks in Colorado. But he's an average hitter outside of Coors.

During his career, Holliday hit .357 at home and .280 on the road. He has 84 career HRs at Coors and 44 on the road. His slugging percentage is .645 at home and .455 on the road.

Do those numbers surprise anyone? Not me. I will always, ALWAYS, be skeptical of Rockies players and their stats. Call me an idiot, call me whatever. But you have Vinny Castilla and Larry Walker to blame for that one. Even Garrett Atkins (who's hit 77 points higher at Coors over his career) and Helton (68 points higher at Coors) to an extent.

Anyway, expect his numbers to drop considerably this year. Look for about a .285 average with 20 HRs and about 85 RBI's. About JJ Hardy, Torri Hunter, Mark Derosa, and Geovany Soto numbers from this past season.

Adding a stud closer and a solid young outfielder and pitcher is hardly getting screwed, but I'm glad you mentioned the career splits for Holliday.

Take his mediocre road numbers and then put them in the roomy confines of Oakland and suddenly putting up 20 HR is not quite so easy.

[In-com-plete]

Adding a stud closer and a solid young outfielder and pitcher is hardly getting screwed, but I'm glad you mentioned the career splits for Holliday.

Take his mediocre road numbers and then put them in the roomy confines of Oakland and suddenly putting up 20 HR is not quite so easy.

Oh, I don't think they got screwed. The "gave him away" was 90% sarcasm. The only reason it wasn't 100% sarcasm was because I really think they might have been able to get a little more.

But I actually think it's pretty even.

[CoachChaz]

Oh, I don't think they got screwed. The "gave him away" was 90% sarcasm. The only reason it wasn't 100% sarcasm was because I really think they might have been able to get a little more.

But I actually think it's pretty even.

I agree. It's the name that Rox fans are upset about. No dount Matt is a good guy and a likeable player, but sometimes you have to give something up for the better of the franchise. Dealing Holliday opens ALOT of doors for them. Dealing Atkins will open some more.

[Buff]

I guess since I'm not a homer, I can see it differently. Holliday is a great player, but the Rox can afford to lose a hitter. A closer like Street is a commodity and Smith and Gonzalez have alot of potential.

Ian Stewart makes Atkins expendible and if they can get young talent in return...why not? Dexter Fowler is also on his way.

So, there is plenty of youth available and maybe more to come to improve this team. I dont think the loss of Holliday will hurt the Rox too much other than fans losing their favorite

But the Rockies had a good late inning finesse pitcher in Fuentes, if they weren't so damn cheap, they'd sign Fuentes, sign Holliday, and trade Atkins for pitching. No way you can tell me we'd rather have Carlos Hernandez and Huston Street over Matt Holliday and Brian Fuentes.

Plus, there's talk that we're gonna turn around and trade Street and give the closer role back to Manny Corpas.

I don't know, I just don't see how anyone could argue that the Rockies are better off because of this move.

[CoachChaz]

Fuentes is 33 and finesse...Street is 25 and power.

Greg Smith is a big lefty with a ton of potential and Carlos Gonzalez has 5 star telent. Dont look at the numbers they put up last year...that is skewed by their youth and support. Look at the bigger picture. When these 3 guys are in their prime and tearing it up...Holliday will be on his downside.

[G_Money]

Holliday didn’t want to stay. He said himself that he was worried that if he signed a big-money deal here that all of a sudden all the money would dry up for everyone else and it would be him, Tulo and 23 rookies.

Can’t blame him for being nervous.

So if a guy’s not gonna stay, then you need to make the best deal for him you can. I try not to trade with the A’s as a rule because their talent evaluators are top-notch and normally the guys you get from them are not worth what you gave up.

But the Rockies could have held Holliday one more year, maybe traded him at the deadline, or let him go for the draftpicks once he declined arb after the season. If the guys you get now are as good or better than deadline guys or draftpicks, then doing a deal now is fine.

I am curious to see what they do with Street. Fuentes has been on a yo-yo in the bullpen.

But when the Rockies started handing out contracts to the guys they wanted to keep, that meant there were gonna be guys they wouldn’t be able to keep. Holliday was one of those guys.

As long as the talent evaluators know what they’re doing, that’s okay. My Mariners have had terrible ML talent evaluators over the last several seasons, which always made me nervous about trades. Since the Rockies have proven to be cheap about draftpicks, it’s probably better to get actual ML talent back so there’s no chance to skimp on it later. Now we’ll see if they wheel and deal with the new pieces, or with now-redundant ones.

~G

[CoachChaz]

As long as the talent evaluators know what they’re doing, that’s okay. My Mariners have had terrible ML talent evaluators over the last several seasons, which always made me nervous about trades. Since the Rockies have proven to be cheap about draftpicks, it’s probably better to get actual ML talent back so there’s no chance to skimp on it later. Now we’ll see if they wheel and deal with the new pieces, or with now-redundant ones.

~G

Perfect example...alot of O's fans werent thrilled with the Bedard deal last year, but what it got us in return was a big reward for a pitcher that is out for another year.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Holliday didn’t want to stay. He said himself that he was worried that if he signed a big-money deal here that all of a sudden all the money would dry up for everyone else and it would be him, Tulo and 23 rookies.

Can’t blame him for being nervous.

So if a guy’s not gonna stay, then you need to make the best deal for him you can. I try not to trade with the A’s as a rule because their talent evaluators are top-notch and normally the guys you get from them are not worth what you gave up.

But the Rockies could have held Holliday one more year, maybe traded him at the deadline, or let him go for the draftpicks once he declined arb after the season. If the guys you get now are as good or better than deadline guys or draftpicks, then doing a deal now is fine.

I am curious to see what they do with Street. Fuentes has been on a yo-yo in the bullpen.

But when the Rockies started handing out contracts to the guys they wanted to keep, that meant there were gonna be guys they wouldn’t be able to keep. Holliday was one of those guys.

As long as the talent evaluators know what they’re doing, that’s okay. My Mariners have had terrible ML talent evaluators over the last several seasons, which always made me nervous about trades. Since the Rockies have proven to be cheap about draftpicks, it’s probably better to get actual ML talent back so there’s no chance to skimp on it later. Now we’ll see if they wheel and deal with the new pieces, or with now-redundant ones.

~G

What is getting old is that we constantly hear that the Rockies want to build from within - from the draft. That's great - but then DON'T trade these same players off, because they now have proven themselves at the big league level, and you DON'T want to pay them what equivalent players are getting. If that is all we will see here, we need to be a farm system, rather than a major league team.

[Buff]

Holliday didn’t want to stay. He said himself that he was worried that if he signed a big-money deal here that all of a sudden all the money would dry up for everyone else and it would be him, Tulo and 23 rookies.

Can’t blame him for being nervous.

So if a guy’s not gonna stay, then you need to make the best deal for him you can. I try not to trade with the A’s as a rule because their talent evaluators are top-notch and normally the guys you get from them are not worth what you gave up.

But the Rockies could have held Holliday one more year, maybe traded him at the deadline, or let him go for the draftpicks once he declined arb after the season. If the guys you get now are as good or better than deadline guys or draftpicks, then doing a deal now is fine.

I am curious to see what they do with Street. Fuentes has been on a yo-yo in the bullpen.

But when the Rockies started handing out contracts to the guys they wanted to keep, that meant there were gonna be guys they wouldn’t be able to keep. Holliday was one of those guys.

As long as the talent evaluators know what they’re doing, that’s okay. My Mariners have had terrible ML talent evaluators over the last several seasons, which always made me nervous about trades. Since the Rockies have proven to be cheap about draftpicks, it’s probably better to get actual ML talent back so there’s no chance to skimp on it later. Now we’ll see if they wheel and deal with the new pieces, or with now-redundant ones.

~G

Can you show me a quote where Holliday said that G?

The only reason he didn't want to stay in a rockies uniform is that we wouldn't meet his asking price, and he wasn't 100% convinced the franchise was committed to winning-- Had we met his asking price and shown that we were serious about signing some pitching, I'm sure he would have been more than happy to stay...

Moreover, I feel like some people don't realize how bad the Monforts are as owners... Maybe another team could get away with this move and have it be ok-- but the rockies are perennial cellar dwellars because they've shown that they are terrible at evaluating free agents, and they are bad at holding onto homegrown talent. That's a losing combination for any organization.

The only thing they know how to manage is their profit margin.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

They do NOT want to pay their home grown talent what they deserve when they prove themselves. It is sickening to look at how many X Rockies are NOW on different teams. I have hoped for years that the Rockies would be sold to someone who is committed to winning - JUST NOT COMMITTED TO MAKING A PROFIT. The ownership for the Rockies were handed everything by the city - they get the total profits from the stadium, the parking, the concessions, etc, and GIVE NOTHING BACK.

[CoachChaz]

If they trade Atkins, it makes way for Stewart...homegrown talent.
Dexter Fowler can now fill a spot with the loss of Holliday...homegrown talent.
Gonzalez can play another OF spot or they can develop him in the farm system.

Like I said...you have to look at these deals alot deeper than just a plyer for a player swap.

[Buff]

If they trade Atkins, it makes way for Stewart...homegrown talent.
Dexter Fowler can now fill a spot with the loss of Holliday...homegrown talent.
Gonzalez can play another OF spot or they can develop him in the farm system.

Like I said...you have to look at these deals alot deeper than just a plyer for a player swap.

Yes, but a little historical context is in order too, which I think is what some are missing here... We know this trade is going to suck, because Colorado only makes shitty deals. Even if Gonzalez suddenly lives up to his potential, we'll just trade him next year for some younger, cheaper prospect... Trust me.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

As Mike Evans just said on FM1043THEFAN -

"We now see what the vicious cycle here will be - when these players get to the point where they want to make decent money - THEY WILL BE TRADED"

They also just said that O'Dowd said on a radio station today that ONCE they made the offer to Holliday last spring, which Matt turned down - THEY NEVER APPROACHED MATT AGAIN - ??????? Isn't that what is meant by negotiations???? In other words, it was a TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT OFFER - PERIOD - THE END!!!!!!!!!

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Perfect example...alot of O's fans werent thrilled with the Bedard deal last year, but what it got us in return was a big reward for a pitcher that is out for another year.

I still cry about giving up Sherrill and Jones (plus some other good prospects) for Erik the Leper Bedard.

[slim]

Booooooooo!!

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I receive a pm from the Rockies today to vote for Fuentes for the closer of the year.

I suppose they want everyone to vote for him so that they can get more for him when they trade him :tsk:

[Buff]

I receive a pm from the Rockies today to vote for Fuentes for the closer of the year.

I suppose they want everyone to vote for him so that they can get more for him when they trade him :tsk:

I wish. He's an unrestricted free agent. He's gonna walk without us seeing anything. I think MLB has a compensatory draft pick system similar to the NFL where we'll get a later round pick, but that's little consolation for losing a top closer/setup pitcher.

[Timmy!]

http://www.lflsports.com/waterboy.jpg

Awwwww, shiiiit. We suck again!

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I wish. He's an unrestricted free agent. He's gonna walk without us seeing anything. I think MLB has a compensatory draft pick system similar to the NFL where we'll get a later round pick, but that's little consolation for losing a top closer/setup pitcher.

It would be nice if the Rockies just signed him

[Buff]

It would be nice if the Rockies just signed him

Agreed, but that ship has already sailed. Fuentes' agent said he will not be back with the team next year.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think F will be a decently tiered free agent. I'm not sure if he'd be A, B or C -- but you'll get a pick for any good player of yours that signs elsewhere in FA. The higher your tier on the A/B/C scale -- the higher the compensatory selection. Baseball rules, drafts and all that stuff is just totally weird and foreign.

[MOtorboat]

I think F will be a decently tiered free agent. I'm not sure if he'd be A, B or C -- but you'll get a pick for any good player of yours that signs elsewhere in FA. The higher your tier on the A/B/C scale -- the higher the compensatory selection. Baseball rules, drafts and all that stuff is just totally weird and foreign.

Pretty basic actually. They'll set the A, B or C through an arbitrator and then its either 1st, 2nd or 3rd round compensatory.

Fuentes is an A

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?season=2008

[MOtorboat]

FYI...

A
Bobby Abreu
A.J. Burnett
Orlando Cabrera
Juan Cruz
Adam Dunn
Brian Fuentes
Trevor Hoffman
Bob Howry
Orlando Hudson
Raul Ibanez
Derek Lowe
Mike Mussina
Darren Oliver
Oliver Perez
Andy Pettitte
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Renteria
C.C. Sabathia
Ben Sheets
Russ Springer
Mark Teixeira
Jason Varitek
Kerry Wood

B
Jeremy Affeldt
Moises Alou
Garret Anderson
Luis Ayala
Joe Beimel
Casey Blake
Milton Bradley
Paul Byrd
Alan Embree
Eric Gagne
Jon Garland
Luis Gonzalez
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mark Grudzielanek
Jason Isringhausen
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Paul Lo Duca
Braden Looper
Mark Loretta
Greg Maddux
Dennys Reyes
Ivan Rodriguez
Brian Shouse
John Smoltz
Frank Thomas
Juan Uribe
David Weathers
Randy Wolf

(P.S. I'm wrong, there is no "C")

[Denver Native (Carol)]

This article was written on 11-13 - maybe things have changed since this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081112&content_id=3676061&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Rox hope to retain free agent Fuentes
With market on closers slim, O'Dowd to offer arbitration to lefty

DENVER -- Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd's attempt to move forward with his roster might mean looking to the immediate past -- to left-handed closer Brian Fuentes.

Fuentes, who earned 30 saves in 2008 and holds the club record with 115, has filed for free agency, with the expectation of receiving a big offer on the open market. However, with several clubs looking for closers and many closers either looking for work or available via trade, O'Dowd said Wednesday the Rockies will offer Fuentes arbitration on the off chance he will accept.

If a free agent accepts an arbitration offer, he is treated just like any other arbitration-eligible player -- mostly those with more than three years and fewer than six years of Major League service. The sides submit figures and negotiate a deal or have a three-judge arbitration panel choose either side's salary offer and assign it to the player.

The offer of arbitration to Fuentes, 33, also is a reflection on the economy, which affects all aspects of society, Major League teams included.

"We feel good about offering Brian Fuentes arbitration, because you never know what will happen," O'Dowd said. "There are a lot of closers on the market. This week you had Trevor Hoffman (whose offer by the Padres was withdrawn) added to the number of guys, and in this economy, you never know what the future will bring."

O'Dowd is in position to add to the intrigue involving closers. The Rockies obtained former Athletics closer Huston Street, along with left-handed starter Greg Smith and outfield prospect Carlos Gonzalez, for left fielder Matt Holliday in a deal completed Wednesday.

With other teams knowing the Rockies also have Manuel Corpas, who supplanted Fuentes as closer in 2007 but lost the job back to him in 2008, O'Dowd is receiving calls from other teams about Street.

In other developments:

• The Rockies had expressed interest in retaining two other free agents, left-handed pitcher Glendon Rusch and reserve outfielder Scott Podsednik, but O'Dowd backed slightly away from that Wednesday.

"We have such respect for the two of them as veterans, but we want to make sure there is an opportunity and a role for them here," O'Dowd said. "It's early in the offseason and we don't know where we're going to end up."

• O'Dowd said the Rockies will not be a player in the free-agent market for top-level starting pitching. He said he is looking for such a talent in a trade, but he believes it may play out that the Rockies possess what they need to augment the front of their rotation -- Aaron Cook, Jeff Francis and Ubaldo Jimenez.

Hot Stove
Young left-hander Franklin Morales, who helped the team to the 2007 World Series during a late-season callup but flamed out last April, has given up one run in his last three games in Venezuela in winter ball. O'Dowd recognized him as the type of talent who can transform the rotation.

"That guy could be down in Venezuela, where he threw six shutout innings the other night," O'Dowd said. "He could be working out down in Florida, the way Greg Reynolds is. He could be working out downstairs [at Coors Field]."

[MOtorboat]

This is the latest I could find about Fuentes, but this is not coming from the Rockies, its coming from the Mets.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spmets195933361nov19,0,1378641.story


Mets have choice of either K-Rod or Fuentes

BY KEN DAVIDOFF | ken.davidoff@newsday.com
November 19, 2008

The Mets have many goals and many choices in this baseball offseason, but as they take in the lay of the land now, they think they know this:

Acquiring a closer will be first on their list of accomplishments.

They will sign either Francisco Rodriguez or Brian Fuentes to be their closer. Whom they sign will depend on the contract terms.

The free-agent market on closers has diminished to where the Mets, the only big-market team looking for an elite reliever, should have their pick of either K-Rod or Fuentes, the top two available options. Though clubs such as Milwaukee and Texas will be shopping for a closer, as well, the struggling economy has limited many clubs' budgets.

Mets officials carry concerns about both of their candidates. Fuentes, more obviously, is 33, and he lost his closer's job in 2007 as the Rockies reached the World Series. For K-Rod, the Mets have asked around the industry about the 26-year-old's mechanics, his arm strength and why the Angels don't appear particularly interested in retaining him.

Rodriguez still hasn't sent his medical records to interested teams, his agent, Paul Kinzer, said yesterday. "There's no problem," Kinzer said. "It was just [the Angels] needed different forms than what we sent to other teams, for some reason."

The Mets expressed some interest in free agent Kerry Wood, and they asked in trade discussions about the White Sox's Bobby Jenks, Seattle's J.J. Putz and Colorado's Huston Street. However, they are wary of Wood's injury history, and they'd rather pay the money for the free agents than give up prospects in a trade.

They'll land their closer first, they believe, because their top options for starting pitcher will take longer to sign. The Mets' own Oliver Perez and Derek Lowe, most recently with the Dodgers, both are represented by Scott Boras, and will draw significant interest. Boras typically tries to use the clock to his advantage in offseason negotiations, even if it means taking a client into the new year without an employer.

Meanwhile, the Mets continue to maintain communication with free agent Raul Ibañez, who interests them as an outfield bat, but they'll face competition for the 36-year-old. The Phillies, the defending World Series champions, have expressed interest in Ibañez, who could replace free agent Pat Burrell in leftfield. So have the Dodgers, who could sign Ibañez if they can't retain Manny Ramirez, the Cubs, the Royals and the Mariners, with whom Ibañez spent the past five years.