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Denver Native (Carol)
07-14-2011, 12:19 PM
This has not been a great offseason for Broncos running back Knowshon Moreno.

We learned that he was likely headed for a reduced role in the Broncos backfield with the arrival of John Fox. The new head coach said running back was their No.1 priority in free agency despite the fact the Broncos have almost no defensive tackles.

Moreno was a top-15 draft pick only two years ago, but reportedly it didn’t take long for Josh McDaniels to “privately realize he made a big mistake.” Woody Paige of the Denver Post writes that Moreno is not what the Broncos thought. (click here to read what Woody posted)

rest of article - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/14/broncos-reportedly-knew-moreno-was-a-mistake-before-long/

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 12:23 PM
But Josh McDaniels was an idiot and his opinion should not be taken seriously.

Or wait, does that still count when its bagging on a first round pick?

LordTrychon
07-14-2011, 12:31 PM
But Josh McDaniels was an idiot and his opinion should not be taken seriously.

Or wait, does that still count when its bagging on a first round pick?

Yes...

As I said over in the Woody's Mailbag thread (merge, maybe? dunno... this is from same article)...

McDaniels' opinion on who was a problem was in the locker room was a little skewed.

broncohead
07-14-2011, 12:34 PM
This is just dumb imo. We haven't seen what a real coach who knows how to use the RBs and have at the very least decent OL blocking scheme. We will see what Moreno has next season

SoCalImport
07-14-2011, 01:00 PM
Moreno may very well never be the feature back we hoped but he will still be a damn good football player. He can catch better then most RBs and has enough wiggle to be a stud 3rd down change of pace guy.
Even then, the question remains, 'change of pace from what?'

T.K.O.
07-14-2011, 01:04 PM
i liked these 2 comments best.......

smartbutlazy says:
Jul 14, 2011 1:04 PM
I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt until he proves he can’t run playing for Fox. Nobody could run on McD’s offense. Look at these stats, the Broncos’ LEADING rushers for each week:
Week 1 Moreno 60
Week 2 Moreno 51
Week 3 Maroney 24
Week 4 Orton 11
Etc.

When Kyle “Lead Feet” Orton is your leading rusher with 11 Yards, you know your offense is screwed up.

281 iRate This

hobartbaker says:
Jul 14, 2011 1:05 PM
The only second year running back with more career yards is Arian Foster, and that is only because Moreno missed a few games last season with injury. How is he a “disappointment”? Knosh averaged 4.3 ypc in Denver last year, while the rest averaged about 3.

BroncoWave
07-14-2011, 01:07 PM
But Josh McDaniels was an idiot and his opinion should not be taken seriously.

Or wait, does that still count when its bagging on a first round pick?

Shhh, don't let logic get in the way of a good ol' McDaniels bashin'.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
07-14-2011, 01:18 PM
That entire article makes me shake my head.

At this point I'd just like to see what Moreno can do behind a competent O-Line w/ an offensive playbook that exceeds the complexity of the bush-league crap we've been blessed with here the last couple of seasons.

Npba900
07-14-2011, 01:20 PM
rest of article - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/14/broncos-reportedly-knew-moreno-was-a-mistake-before-long/

Oh well hopefully Moreno hasn't touched his signing bonus and socked away $$$$. Doesn't sound like he's got an NFL career for much longer.

FanInAZ
07-14-2011, 01:22 PM
But Josh McDaniels was an idiot and his opinion should not be taken seriously.

Or wait, does that still count when its bagging on a first round pick?

This is like the original Star Trek episode where Captain Mudd traps Kirk & company on a planet with identical looking androids who were tied into a central computer. They were able to overload the thought process of each individual android by making contradictory statements that "does not compute.

They finally get to the leader and Kirk tells him that Captain Mudd always lies. Then Mudd tells him that he's lying. The computer goes into a contradiction loop. If Mudd was lying about lying, then he must be telling the truth, but Mudd could not tell the truth because he always lies.

"Cannot compute!"

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 01:25 PM
Oh well hopefully Moreno hasn't touched his signing bonus and socked away $$$$. Doesn't sound like he's got an NFL career for much longer.

He will still have a career, just not one that a 1st round draft pick should have. He will be a great backup or complement to Williams, Bush, Brashaw, Benson or any of the top RB in free agency.

BroncoJoe
07-14-2011, 01:26 PM
I'm gonna hold out hope for this year he can be the back he was in college. RB being a #1 priority could simply mean we have zero depth behind Moreno as well... Just a thought.

We'll see.

Traveler
07-14-2011, 01:29 PM
I just want to know he's been working on his conditioning and seeking out whatever information he can find to help prevent the hamstring injuries he's suffered in his first two years here.

I truly believe Fox and company will bring some semblence of order to the OL so the RB's don't have a defensive player in front of them before they even complete the handoff.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 01:35 PM
I'm gonna hold out hope for this year he can be the back he was in college. RB being a #1 priority could simply mean we have zero depth behind Moreno as well... Just a thought.

We'll see.

Just shows Fox is not sure about LenDale White coming back 100%, Moreno might not be the all down back and Lance Ball not very productive.

Buff
07-14-2011, 01:40 PM
Anyone with two functioning eyes can see that he is not a 1st round talent.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 01:41 PM
Anyone with two functioning eyes can see that he is not a 1st round talent.

Behind horrible play calling and a non existent block game....yes

Superchop 7
07-14-2011, 01:42 PM
Just a reminder of my draft picks at the time:



12- Orakpo- "Dominant" translates to any team.
18- Ayers- If he slid, which he did, you grab him.
37- Maualuga- Sliding....you get him.
48- Moore- Solid player....good value.
64- Jarron Gilbert- value pick.
114- Brinkley- like his potential.
132- Nic Harris- my guy.
141- Ringer- better get a RB or homies will lose it.
174- Pryor- yeah, he's a character....but it's pick 174
226- Shipley- filling a need.

Juriga72
07-14-2011, 01:44 PM
I threw up when we picked Kno at 12.....Instead of Orakpo

I tore my tv apart when we picked Ayers at 18....instead of Matthews

I rolled into a fetal ball when Mathews III went at 26


Matthews Williams Orakpo Doom


THATS your 3-4 LB crew for 2009.......

Traveler
07-14-2011, 01:47 PM
Just a reminder of my draft picks at the time:



12- Orakpo- "Dominant" translates to any team.
18- Ayers- If he slid, which he did, you grab him.
37- Maualuga- Sliding....you get him.
48- Moore- Solid player....good value.
64- Jarron Gilbert- value pick.
114- Brinkley- like his potential.
132- Nic Harris- my guy.
141- Ringer- better get a RB or homies will lose it.
174- Pryor- yeah, he's a character....but it's pick 174
226- Shipley- filling a need.

IIRC, Maualuga was the guy everyone on the board thought Denver was after when they traded up in the second round.

SOCALORADO.
07-14-2011, 01:58 PM
IIRC, Maualuga was the guy everyone on the board thought Denver was after when they traded up in the second round.

Yeah, then we passed him AGAIN for Lil' Alphie.
*sighs* Please, PLEASE dont get me started on what was one of the greatest USC drafts in years, and DEN managed to completely FUBAR the whole damn draft. Not to mention Mcdoodoohead passed on Claymaker not once, but twice! What an idiot.

As for Knowshow, hes a bust. Everyone, just deal with it. His problem really has nothing to do with the O-line. It wouldnt matter if he was playing for the Houston Texans, he would still suck, and heres why.
When Knowshow did manage to get through the line to the 2nd level, he showed absolutely no vision, no speed and never broke any tackles. He is terrible in open space. He indicisive, and because he isnt quick or fast, with good moves, opposing players drill him. Which causes him to get injured.
Hes just not that good.

Juriga72
07-14-2011, 02:05 PM
Yeah, then we passed him AGAIN for Lil' Alphie.
*sighs* Please, PLEASE dont get me started on what was one of the greatest USC drafts in years, and DEN managed to completely FUBAR the whole damn draft. Not to mention Mcdoodoohead passed on Claymaker not once, but twice! What an idiot.



Hey now....

You can find a NFL MVP 3-4 LB everywhere.....right? I mean... gosh.

Maybe McDouchie was worried about Clay hittin on his wife too

underrated29
07-14-2011, 02:08 PM
Yeah, then we passed him AGAIN for Lil' Alphie.
*sighs* Please, PLEASE dont get me started on what was one of the greatest USC drafts in years, and DEN managed to completely FUBAR the whole damn draft. Not to mention Mcdoodoohead passed on Claymaker not once, but twice! What an idiot.

As for Knowshow, hes a bust. Everyone, just deal with it. His problem really has nothing to do with the O-line. It wouldnt matter if he was playing for the Houston Texans, he would still suck, and heres why.
When Knowshow did manage to get through the line to the 2nd level, he showed absolutely no vision, no speed and never broke any tackles. He is terrible in open space. He indicisive, and because he isnt quick or fast, with good moves, opposing players drill him. Which causes him to get injured.
Hes just not that good.


Right....

A bust that averages over 10 yards per catch.

A bust in two years who has 2300+ yards and 17tds
A bust who never got hurt from players drilling him but from his vagina...i mean hamstrings.


I think we will deal with it just fine.

Buff
07-14-2011, 02:12 PM
Behind horrible play calling and a non existent block game....yes


No, he is not a first round talent. Period. He doesn't have break away speed, he doesn't have elite durability, his vision leaves a lot to be desired.

The guy is not a horrible back and he can definitely contribute, he just had no business being picked 12th overall.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 02:14 PM
No, he is not a first round talent. Period. He doesn't have break away speed, he doesn't have elite durability, his vision leaves a lot to be desired.

The guy is not a horrible back and he can definitely contribute, he just had no business being picked 12th overall.

I give his this year to prove what he has. Or else he is a first round bust and will be a back up

Buff
07-14-2011, 02:16 PM
I give his this year to prove what he has. Or else he is a first round bust and will be a back up

I know everything I need to know about him. I think his production may go up this year if he can stay healthy, but we know exactly what we've got from a talent perspective.

Traveler
07-14-2011, 02:25 PM
No, he is not a first round talent. Period. He doesn't have break away speed, he doesn't have elite durability, his vision leaves a lot to be desired.

The guy is not a horrible back and he can definitely contribute, he just had no business being picked 12th overall.

On this we can agree.

Buff
07-14-2011, 02:27 PM
On this we can agree.

Yeah, as a 2nd or 3rd rounder I think we'd be perfectlty satisfied with his production - though maybe a little frustrated with his durability.

Traveler
07-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Yeah, as a 2nd or 3rd rounder I think we'd be perfectlty satisfied with his production - though maybe a little frustrated with his durability.

I personally don't think our long term answer at RB is presently on the team. Nor will he acquired in free agency. He'll be drafted next year.

Buff
07-14-2011, 02:33 PM
I personally don't think our long term answer at RB is presently on the team. Nor will he acquired in free agency. He'll be drafted next year.

And hopefully he runs a sub 4.4 40.

GEM
07-14-2011, 02:38 PM
Since he is still down in the south and has done nothing to work on his conditioning in this altitude, I have no hope that he will be any better or avoid injury any better than he has since the day he got here.

His priorities are scrambled.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 02:40 PM
I know everything I need to know about him. I think his production may go up this year if he can stay healthy, but we know exactly what we've got from a talent perspective.

For missing several games and near 800 yards in a crappy running game.....Is not too bad. He also had over 300 receiving yards. I think with new scheme he can be over 1,000 rushing in top 15 in league. He also has 20% less carries on average then the other RBs.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 02:41 PM
Since he is still down in the south and has done nothing to work on his conditioning in this altitude, I have no hope that he will be any better or avoid injury any better than he has since the day he got here.

His priorities are scrambled.

Are you sure about that? Just because we have not heard of him being in Denver?

SOCALORADO.
07-14-2011, 02:43 PM
No, he is not a first round talent. Period. He doesn't have break away speed, he doesn't have elite durability, his vision leaves a lot to be desired.

The guy is not a horrible back and he can definitely contribute, he just had no business being picked 12th overall.

Exactly. Hes a bust. Never should have been drafted until the 3rd round and no higher. He gets his yards off of random broken plays, and he can catch.
Hes a 3rd down back and nothing more, and i dont know if that is even a good spot for him, cause hes so damn slow.
Sure, he can contribute, but hes not to be relied upon as a full time RB.
If he was lightning fast i would give him some slack, but hes just so damn slow, and his vision is just horrid! He not only runs right up the back of his own linemen, but when he has time in the open field, he hesistates and has no clue where to go. Its really bad. Theres no cut back, no juke, no stiff arm, no nothing.

GEM
07-14-2011, 02:44 PM
Are you sure about that? Just because we have not heard of him being in Denver?

I have read a couple reports over the offseason that state he is down in GA. :shrugs:

If you are acclimated to the altitude, you aren't huffing and puffing on the sidelines during a home game after a measly 2-3 yd run. To become an acclimated runner in this altitude, you have to train and condition in this altitude. If you are acclimated, it cuts down on the muscle pulls and tears. He's had nothing but issues with these very things.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and there are reports out there saying he doesn't spend his offseasons here, it's probably a GA duck.

BroncoWave
07-14-2011, 02:44 PM
Gotta love when people hold where a player was drafted against that player, as if the player has any control over where he was drafted. It's not Moreno's fault he was picked 12th overall.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 02:46 PM
Gotta love when people hold where a player was drafted against that player, as if the player has any control over where he was drafted. It's not Moreno's fault he was picked 12th overall.

As long as he is a solid contributor I will be happy. He helps us win games, that is all I want.

GEM
07-14-2011, 02:48 PM
Gotta love when people hold where a player was drafted against that player, as if the player has any control over where he was drafted. It's not Moreno's fault he was picked 12th overall.

But it is his fault that he's not performing anywhere near a 12th overall pick. Especially when he isn't taking the steps necessary to prepare him to be the best football player for the Denver Broncos. You are getting paid 12th player pick, have some pride and perform for the boss paying you.

BroncoWave
07-14-2011, 02:54 PM
But it is his fault that he's not performing anywhere near a 12th overall pick. Especially when he isn't taking the steps necessary to prepare him to be the best football player for the Denver Broncos. You are getting paid 12th player pick, have some pride and perform for the boss paying you.

What if he isn't capable of playing to the level of a #12 overall pick though? How in the world is that his fault? If McDaniels really did badly misjudge his talent, why does Moreno have to shoulder that blame?

And how would you have any idea that he isn't taking those necessary steps? Have you been following everything he's been doing while in Georgia?

LordTrychon
07-14-2011, 02:56 PM
If you look to see how often players break 1000 yds rushing in NE, it sheds some light on the situation as well.

Shananahan
07-14-2011, 02:58 PM
If you are acclimated to the altitude, you aren't huffing and puffing on the sidelines during a home game after a measly 2-3 yd run. To become an acclimated runner in this altitude, you have to train and condition in this altitude. If you are acclimated, it cuts down on the muscle pulls and tears. He's had nothing but issues with these very things.
Yeah. And considering the way this offseason has gone and may continue to go, it would be very helpful if he could do some training in Colorado on his own.

Buff
07-14-2011, 02:58 PM
What if he isn't capable of playing to the level of a #12 overall pick though? How in the world is that his fault? If McDaniels really did badly misjudge his talent, why does Moreno have to shoulder that blame?

And how would you have any idea that he isn't taking those necessary steps? Have you been following everything he's been doing while in Georgia?

I think there is an argument to be made that says if you are being paid like the #12 pick then you ought to be doing everything humanly possible to live up to that contract.

Woody says he is a bad lockerroom guy.

:whoknows:

Shananahan
07-14-2011, 02:59 PM
Honestly I don't understand why everybody is even making such a big deal about this. Tebow will be our leading rusher by a landslide; the rest of the yards will just be shared between Moreno and whoever else we sign.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 03:02 PM
Gotta love when people hold where a player was drafted against that player, as if the player has any control over where he was drafted. It's not Moreno's fault he was picked 12th overall.

You are right....but that's how it is all over the league at every position. Many players have failed the NFL, not because of play persa but because of where they are drafted in comparison to their play.

Many have pointed out, and most of his detractors, that if he was drafted in the 3rd round, they would be happy about his production.

He can't help it, and he may not be capable. If thats the case he shouldnt have been taken in the first and that draft choice should have been used on another player. That's just how it is when you look at first round picks, its just part of the territory.

Denver Native (Carol)
07-14-2011, 03:03 PM
I have read a couple reports over the offseason that state he is down in GA. :shrugs:

If you are acclimated to the altitude, you aren't huffing and puffing on the sidelines during a home game after a measly 2-3 yd run. To become an acclimated runner in this altitude, you have to train and condition in this altitude. If you are acclimated, it cuts down on the muscle pulls and tears. He's had nothing but issues with these very things.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and there are reports out there saying he doesn't spend his offseasons here, it's probably a GA duck.


Again, if I were a veteran on this team, I would show up occasionally in Denver so at least people would know I was alive. Fox has read about the workouts, and he knows who has been here and who hasn't. He did tell me he got to know most of the offensive linemen because they were working out at Dove Valley before the lockout.

Moreno better get his butt in gear this year, or he'll be just another average running back.

http://www.denverpost.com/woodysmailbag/ci_18472436

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Honestly I don't understand why everybody is even making such a big deal about this. Tebow will be our leading rusher by a landslide; the rest of the yards will just be shared between Moreno and whoever else we sign.

I reallllllllly hope you are wrong

GEM
07-14-2011, 03:05 PM
What if he isn't capable of playing to the level of a #12 overall pick though? How in the world is that his fault? If McDaniels really did badly misjudge his talent, why does Moreno have to shoulder that blame?

And how would you have any idea that he isn't taking those necessary steps? Have you been following everything he's been doing while in Georgia?

I would have no issue with that if he were in the condition to play in Denver. I have a hard time believing that when he is begging to come out and on the sideline huffing and gasping for air after minimal runs.

You can't train for Denver's altitude in GA. You just can't.

Traveler
07-14-2011, 03:05 PM
And hopefully he runs a sub 4.4 40.

Knile Davis (ran a 4.37 in spring practice at 6'-0 220 lbs,) or Trent Richardson anyone?:D

BroncoStud
07-14-2011, 03:46 PM
But Josh McDaniels was an idiot and his opinion should not be taken seriously.

Or wait, does that still count when its bagging on a first round pick?

Moreno has been more productive than Josh. I'd rather have him.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-14-2011, 03:56 PM
For all the hate being dumped on Moreno, in the first three rounds of the 2009 draft, there were 5 RBs taken. If you look at what they've done so far in the league, only Lesean McCoy (2nd round) has actually played better than Knowshon.

Beanie Wells and Donald Brown were both taken in the first round. Both are backups and neither have done squat. McCoy was the only RB taken in the second round and he's done well for Philly, but he has yet to eclipse 1000 yards rushing because that just isn't Philly's scheme.

The other two were Shonn Greene, who still is the #2 in New York (they had so much faith in him they signed an old LT to start) and Glen Coffey who is no longer in the league.

So of that list, who should we have drafted instead of Moreno? I know folks like to shit on McDaniels, I do, but in this case, Moreno was drafted right about where all the experts said he would be and he wasn't considered a "reach" at 12. I watched the guy run roughshod over the SEC for 2 seasons and I'm sure he has the ability to be a solid starter for the Broncos.

Is he Adrian Peterson? No - is anybody? Is he Chris Johnson? No - is anybody? Of all of McDaniels' draft picks, he's actually been the most productive. Everyone is willing to give ol' 1.5 sack, no-show Robert Ayers another chance in a "new system" now that he's back to playing DE vs OLB, why not wait to see how Moreno does playing in a good running system instead of a pass happy one where he gets insufficient carries and reps?

I'm much quicker to call Ayers a flat out BUST than I am Moreno at this point.

GEM
07-14-2011, 04:03 PM
Is that saying much for Moreno or just that it was a weak RB class?

We should have drafted Orakpo. PERIOD.

I am inclined to say that neither Moreno or Ayers are performing for where they were drafted. To think we could have had Orakpo and Matthews on the Broncos and instead we got Moreno and Ayers.....PUKE!!!

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 04:09 PM
Is that saying much for Moreno or just that it was a weak RB class?

We should have drafted Orakpo. PERIOD.

I am inclined to say that neither Moreno or Ayers are performing for where they were drafted. To think we could have had Orakpo and Matthews on the Broncos and instead we got Moreno and Ayers.....PUKE!!!

Moreno could be working out in GA to stay in shape and it would only take a month to get use to the elevation, sop basically training camp.

BigDaddyBronco
07-14-2011, 04:16 PM
Is that saying much for Moreno or just that it was a weak RB class?

We should have drafted Orakpo. PERIOD.

I am inclined to say that neither Moreno or Ayers are performing for where they were drafted. To think we could have had Orakpo and Matthews on the Broncos and instead we got Moreno and Ayers.....PUKE!!!
You just don't draft RB's early in the first round. Plenty of good running backs in late 1st, 2nd or 3rd round. Heck, Shanny made a living with late round or UFA guys.

GEM
07-14-2011, 04:27 PM
Moreno could be working out in GA to stay in shape and it would only take a month to get use to the elevation, sop basically training camp.

If that's what he was doing before, it wasn't working. Hence his almost dying on the sidelines the last couple seasons. I don't care how many people tell me that he could do this or he could that....so far he hasn't and until he shows he can, I have no faith in the guy. It just reinforces my feelings because he does nothing to make it better. He doesn't do himself any favors.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 04:31 PM
Didnt Orakpo have either the same or 2 more sacks then our very own MLB Dj WIlliams last year....I think so.


Orak is good, but played on a great defense, after shanny made their defense suck as bad as ours, Orak attack went flat. I am not so sure he would do so much better here.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 04:32 PM
BTW guys, Mario Fannin in my sig is about 5'11 225 and he runs a 4.47 or 4.37...I think its the 4.47 though.

GEM
07-14-2011, 04:38 PM
Didnt Orakpo have either the same or 2 more sacks then our very own MLB Dj WIlliams last year....I think so.


Orak is good, but played on a great defense, after shanny made their defense suck as bad as ours, Orak attack went flat. I am not so sure he would do so much better here.

We needed D help more than O help when he was drafted, had they stuck with D strategy, we could have had Orakpo and Matthews. Between the 2 of them, we would have been a hell of a lot more dangerous than Moreno and Ayers.

I just don't get what they were thinking then....but then again, I am left scratching my head a lot on draft day being a Broncos fan.

Buff
07-14-2011, 04:40 PM
For all the hate being dumped on Moreno, in the first three rounds of the 2009 draft, there were 5 RBs taken. If you look at what they've done so far in the league, only Lesean McCoy (2nd round) has actually played better than Knowshon.

Beanie Wells and Donald Brown were both taken in the first round. Both are backups and neither have done squat. McCoy was the only RB taken in the second round and he's done well for Philly, but he has yet to eclipse 1000 yards rushing because that just isn't Philly's scheme.

The other two were Shonn Greene, who still is the #2 in New York (they had so much faith in him they signed an old LT to start) and Glen Coffey who is no longer in the league.

So of that list, who should we have drafted instead of Moreno? I know folks like to shit on McDaniels, I do, but in this case, Moreno was drafted right about where all the experts said he would be and he wasn't considered a "reach" at 12. I watched the guy run roughshod over the SEC for 2 seasons and I'm sure he has the ability to be a solid starter for the Broncos.

Is he Adrian Peterson? No - is anybody? Is he Chris Johnson? No - is anybody? Of all of McDaniels' draft picks, he's actually been the most productive. Everyone is willing to give ol' 1.5 sack, no-show Robert Ayers another chance in a "new system" now that he's back to playing DE vs OLB, why not wait to see how Moreno does playing in a good running system instead of a pass happy one where he gets insufficient carries and reps?

I'm much quicker to call Ayers a flat out BUST than I am Moreno at this point.

There is always going to be risk when trying to convert a 4-3 DE to a 3-4 OLB. But the general concensus in the NFL is that you have to get those guys early and take a chance because their size/skill/speed set is so difficult to attain.

On the flip side, RB's are a dime a dozen and if you take one in the top half of the first round you are saying he is a can't-miss franchise type back.

The front office should have been well aware of those risks, along with our glaring needs on defense, and gone a different direction. I am not willing to play the "hindsight 20/20" card - they should have known better.

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 04:43 PM
Hasn't Tebow been in Florida for most of the offseason, outside of showing up for some of Dawkins' workouts?

Don't most players go home (usually California, Texas, Arizona and Florida) during regular offseason's and train in Denver only during the brief OTAs (which are optional)?

That does not excuse Moreno from not showing up to ANY of the workouts, just the notion that you have to train in Denver.

OaklandRaider
07-14-2011, 04:46 PM
Exactly. Hes a bust. Never should have been drafted until the 3rd round and no higher. He gets his yards off of random broken plays, and he can catch.
Hes a 3rd down back and nothing more, and i dont know if that is even a good spot for him, cause hes so damn slow.
Sure, he can contribute, but hes not to be relied upon as a full time RB.
If he was lightning fast i would give him some slack, but hes just so damn slow, and his vision is just horrid! He not only runs right up the back of his own linemen, but when he has time in the open field, he hesistates and has no clue where to go. Its really bad. Theres no cut back, no juke, no stiff arm, no nothing.

Exactly how I feel about Moreno.

The guy is just not that talented of a runningback. There is nothing about his game that stands out to you, he is just solid or okay in most areas. He can't beat you on the edge, he is not a power guy, his vision is very suspect, he has minimal agility, and he fumbles too much for my liking.

If you are going to take a runningback in the first round, especially 12th overall, he had better well be a special talent with a lot of upside. Like a Chris Johnson, or a Adrian Peterson, a CJ Spiller, or a Darren McFadden.

GEM
07-14-2011, 04:55 PM
Hasn't Tebow been in Florida for most of the offseason, outside of showing up for some of Dawkins' workouts?

Don't most players go home (usually California, Texas, Arizona and Florida) during regular offseason's and train in Denver only during the brief OTAs (which are optional)?

That does not excuse Moreno from not showing up to ANY of the workouts, just the notion that you have to train in Denver.

When you are having as much trouble as he does breathing in this altitude it would make a whole lot more sense to train here, condition here so that you are at your top performing ability. Normal isn't good enough if you are a 1st round draft pick being demoted to backup.

GEM
07-14-2011, 04:56 PM
Exactly how I feel about Moreno.

The guy is just not that talented of a runningback. There is nothing about his game that stands out to you, he is just solid or okay in most areas. He can't beat you on the edge, he is not a power guy, his vision is very suspect, he has minimal agility, and he fumbles too much for my liking.

If you are going to take a runningback in the first round, especially 12th overall, he had better well be a special talent with a lot of upside. Like a Chris Johnson, or a Adrian Peterson, a CJ Spiller, or a Darren McFadden.

I think I am going to throw up a little in my mouth....I am agreeing with a Raiders fan. :lol:

TXBRONC
07-14-2011, 04:57 PM
For all the hate being dumped on Moreno, in the first three rounds of the 2009 draft, there were 5 RBs taken. If you look at what they've done so far in the league, only Lesean McCoy (2nd round) has actually played better than Knowshon.

Beanie Wells and Donald Brown were both taken in the first round. Both are backups and neither have done squat. McCoy was the only RB taken in the second round and he's done well for Philly, but he has yet to eclipse 1000 yards rushing because that just isn't Philly's scheme.

The other two were Shonn Greene, who still is the #2 in New York (they had so much faith in him they signed an old LT to start) and Glen Coffey who is no longer in the league.

So of that list, who should we have drafted instead of Moreno? I know folks like to shit on McDaniels, I do, but in this case, Moreno was drafted right about where all the experts said he would be and he wasn't considered a "reach" at 12. I watched the guy run roughshod over the SEC for 2 seasons and I'm sure he has the ability to be a solid starter for the Broncos.

Is he Adrian Peterson? No - is anybody? Is he Chris Johnson? No - is anybody? Of all of McDaniels' draft picks, he's actually been the most productive. Everyone is willing to give ol' 1.5 sack, no-show Robert Ayers another chance in a "new system" now that he's back to playing DE vs OLB, why not wait to see how Moreno does playing in a good running system instead of a pass happy one where he gets insufficient carries and reps?

I'm much quicker to call Ayers a flat out BUST than I am Moreno at this point.

Moreno wasn't playing in his natural position. Ayers wasn't.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 04:58 PM
When you are having as much trouble as he does breathing in this altitude it would make a whole lot more sense to train here, condition here so that you are at your top performing ability. Normal isn't good enough if you are a 1st round draft pick being demoted to backup.

If he was sucking air half way through season or near end....that is NOT ALTITUDE, that is flat out not being in shape. You dont need to train in altitude very long to get use to it. Try playing sports and sea level then going to 4,000 (not quite mile but close). It did not take long to get use to it, month maybe. Then again I was playing rugby, soccer and lacrosse (no football at my college). Just living in denver you will get use to the altitude.

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 04:59 PM
When you are having as much trouble as he does breathing in this altitude it would make a whole lot more sense to train here, condition here so that you are at your top performing ability. Normal isn't good enough if you are a 1st round draft pick being demoted to backup.

So where's the line? Are third round draft picks allowed to go home during the offseason?

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:00 PM
If you don't want a starting job, sure

TXBRONC
07-14-2011, 05:02 PM
Didnt Orakpo have either the same or 2 more sacks then our very own MLB Dj WIlliams last year....I think so.


Orak is good, but played on a great defense, after shanny made their defense suck as bad as ours, Orak attack went flat. I am not so sure he would do so much better here.

Orakpo had 8.5 and Williams had 5.5. However I think it is important to note they didn't play the same position.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:05 PM
So where's the line? Are third round draft picks allowed to go home during the offseason?

She's not talking about draft position, she's talkings about production. She wouldn't be cricizing him, no matter the draft position, had he simply produced on the field. If you are a first round pick, you are expected to sart AND produce. Not so much at third round.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:06 PM
Orakpo had 8.5 and Williams had 5.5. However I think it is important to note they didn't play the same position.

MLBs usually are not your sack producers.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:11 PM
Nobody ever answers this question then.


Knowshon has 2300+ yards and 17tds in 2 years, while not playing in everygame.




Just what exactly should his numbers be so he CAN PRODUCE as many are saying he did not?

TXBRONC
07-14-2011, 05:13 PM
MLBs usually are not your sack producers.

Exactly and linebacker in a 4-3 are generally expected to be sack producers.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:13 PM
MLBs usually are not your sack producers.



My point exactly. Every is clamoring how we could have had Orakpo and our MLB who is not a sack producer had 3 less sacks than the Mighty guy who is in for sacks most every play.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:14 PM
Exactly and linebacker in a 4-3 are generally expected to be sack producers.

think you mean 3-4 mate.

TXBRONC
07-14-2011, 05:16 PM
think you mean 3-4 mate.

No I meant 4-3. I said because people have complained in past about Williams not getting when we played in a 4-3.

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 05:17 PM
So where's the line? Are third round draft picks allowed to go home during the offseason?

She's not talking about draft position, she's talkings about production. She wouldn't be cricizing him, no matter the draft position, had he simply produced on the field. If you are a first round pick, you are expected to sart AND produce. Not so much at third round.

Huh?

He's top 20 in the league in production in his first two seasons, but I don't see where that has anything to do with whether he trains in Denver or not.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:23 PM
Nobody ever answers this question then.


Knowshon has 2300+ yards and 17tds in 2 years, while not playing in everygame.




Just what exactly should his numbers be so he CAN PRODUCE as many are saying he did not?

I think this is looking at the stats and ignoring what is SEEN on the field during games. This is another example of trying to use stats as the end of the discussion as if they are the answer.

Just watch the games. Moreno hasn't shown any kind of burst or speed. His vision is bad, and it's why coaches are seeing that the pick wasn't the best for where he was taken. He hasn't shown the ability to be a full time rb in this league....yet.

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 05:27 PM
Nobody ever answers this question then.


Knowshon has 2300+ yards and 17tds in 2 years, while not playing in everygame.




Just what exactly should his numbers be so he CAN PRODUCE as many are saying he did not?

I think this is looking at the stats and ignoring what is SEEN on the field during games. This is another example of trying to use stats as the end of the discussion as if they are the answer.

Just watch the games. Moreno hasn't shown any kind of burst or speed. His vision is bad, and it's why coaches are seeing that the pick wasn't the best for where he was taken. He hasn't shown the ability to be a full time rb in this league....yet.

So the SCHEME was what got him 2300 all purpose yards and 17 TDs. Certainly there's no talent in him, obviously, so it had to have been the brilliant scheme.

Yes? No?

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:28 PM
Huh?

He's top 20 in the league in production in his first two seasons, but I don't see where that has anything to do with whether he trains in Denver or not.

Then you aren't reading what has been typed. She has specifically said over and over again that he is injured and has to wave for a replacement after every three yard run...directly relating that to conditioning, or the lack thereof in the altitude in Denver.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:30 PM
I think this is looking at the stats and ignoring what is SEEN on the field during games. This is another example of trying to use stats as the end of the discussion as if they are the answer.

Just watch the games. Moreno hasn't shown any kind of burst or speed. His vision is bad, and it's why coaches are seeing that the pick wasn't the best for where he was taken. He hasn't shown the ability to be a full time rb in this league....yet.


I see a good runner who got hit way to often before he got a chance to go.

He does not have the speed, but this bring me back to the same arguement which I call the chris johnson effect. We have had the speed backs before and did didly squat with them. Remember andre hall, tatum bell, selvin young.....Those guys were speed backs and while they did make some big flashy plays, they also could never punch it in the endzone. They never got the short yardage when we needed it. They were all or nothing. Never getting 4-5 yards at a time. It was always 1,2,1,2,30...yards runs.

Moreno with proper blocking is going to get the 4-5 yards I think, and we already see he can get into the endzone just fine.



As for the article and the coaches. I call BS...Anyone who said anything about anything was a bad player in Josh Mcdaniels eyes.


Also keep in mind this report is coming from teh same people who said Shanny was going to release brandon marshall....Which shanny said also was totally untrue. So when a report from the Mcdaniels people say he was a bad pick, despite his numbers saying otherwise. yeah---I dont buy it.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:33 PM
So the SCHEME was what got him 2300 all purpose yards and 17 TDs. Certainly there's no talent in him, obviously, so it had to have been the brilliant scheme.

Yes? No?

No talent, or starting talent? I don't know what games you have been watching, but I haven't seen a dynamic RB in Moreno at all. He might be a good third down back, but not a starter. We all know stats can lie, or certainly not tell the whole truth. If you want to believe that he's a top 20 back based on those stats.....hey more power to you. But I haven't seen that at ALLLLLLLL from him. He's slow, he's bad at reading blocks and seems to have an injury problem. Until he shows me otherwise, I see nothing that makes me believe him to be the answer at RB.

GEM
07-14-2011, 05:33 PM
I see a good runner who got hit way to often before he got a chance to go.

He does not have the speed, but this bring me back to the same arguement which I call the chris johnson effect. We have had the speed backs before and did didly squat with them. Remember andre hall, tatum bell, selvin young.....Those guys were speed backs and while they did make some big flashy plays, they also could never punch it in the endzone. They never got the short yardage when we needed it. They were all or nothing. Never getting 4-5 yards at a time. It was always 1,2,1,2,30...yards runs.

Moreno with proper blocking is going to get the 4-5 yards I think, and we already see he can get into the endzone just fine.



As for the article and the coaches. I call BS...Anyone who said anything about anything was a bad player in Josh Mcdaniels eyes.


Also keep in mind this report is coming from teh same people who said Shanny was going to release brandon marshall....Which shanny said also was totally untrue. So when a report from the Mcdaniels people say he was a bad pick, despite his numbers saying otherwise. yeah---I dont buy it.

It helps to have vision. He doesn't see the holes that open for him. He dances in the background cutting what should be a 6-10 yd gain down to 3-4.

Maybe with an improved line and a different scheme he can excel, but not if he isn't conditioned and in shape. If he repeats the sideline huffing and puffing, he won't have a chance to.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:36 PM
It helps to have vision. He doesn't see the holes that open for him. He dances in the background cutting what should be a 6-10 yd gain down to 3-4.

Maybe with an improved line and a different scheme he can excel, but not if he isn't conditioned and in shape. If he repeats the sideline huffing and puffing, he won't have a chance to.


See, I just have not seen many holes that were open that he missed. Now, I only have 3 games on my DVR to watch since I switched from dish to direct so i can not go back all that far. But I truly think there were never really holes. Im sure he missed some but not more than the average back does.


Im with you on the second part all the way. He needs to get the sand out of his Vag, and take up yoga or something. Nothing pissed me off more than see him come off the field or pull a hammy.

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 05:36 PM
Huh?

He's top 20 in the league in production in his first two seasons, but I don't see where that has anything to do with whether he trains in Denver or not.

Then you aren't reading what has been typed. She has specifically said over and over again that he is injured and has to wave for a replacement after every three yard run...directly relating that to conditioning, or the lack thereof in the altitude in Denver.

Well, I don't really buy that, anyway, giving how McDaniels employed running backs. The fan gets to see him wave his hand once, maybe twice, in a game and suddenly this myth of him being completely out of shape is born.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:38 PM
I see a good runner who got hit way to often before he got a chance to go.

He does not have the speed, but this bring me back to the same arguement which I call the chris johnson effect. We have had the speed backs before and did didly squat with them. Remember andre hall, tatum bell, selvin young.....Those guys were speed backs and while they did make some big flashy plays, they also could never punch it in the endzone. They never got the short yardage when we needed it. They were all or nothing. Never getting 4-5 yards at a time. It was always 1,2,1,2,30...yards runs.

Moreno with proper blocking is going to get the 4-5 yards I think, and we already see he can get into the endzone just fine.



As for the article and the coaches. I call BS...Anyone who said anything about anything was a bad player in Josh Mcdaniels eyes.


Also keep in mind this report is coming from teh same people who said Shanny was going to release brandon marshall....Which shanny said also was totally untrue. So when a report from the Mcdaniels people say he was a bad pick, despite his numbers saying otherwise. yeah---I dont buy it.

I'm not looking for or expecting Chris Johnson....but i do expect my starting RB to have enough speed to burst through the hole....he doesn't. You can make excuses about the blocking if you want...but I haven't been impressed with him as a whole.

Although I've said on many occasions that I'm hoping to see more of the last two games TYPE of runner from him, because that felt better to me. But i have to see more of that to believe him to be that kind of RB. As of right now, he has a ton to prove to me to see him as a good starter.

GEM
07-14-2011, 05:38 PM
If he was sucking air half way through season or near end....that is NOT ALTITUDE, that is flat out not being in shape. You dont need to train in altitude very long to get use to it. Try playing sports and sea level then going to 4,000 (not quite mile but close). It did not take long to get use to it, month maybe. Then again I was playing rugby, soccer and lacrosse (no football at my college). Just living in denver you will get use to the altitude.


And beings that he is only in Denver during the season, he can normally breathe at no high strenuous work levels, but you put running on the guy, running with linemen blocking you or lbers leveling you and you have a guy who is in no way acclimated to PLAYING CONDITION.

There are reports that he is lazy in the locker room. Perhaps on top of not putting the time in Denver to stop the huffing and puffing, he's just generally not in great football shape. Not good shape plus poor conditioning. Recipe for disaster in the pulls and tears dept.

GEM
07-14-2011, 05:40 PM
Well, I don't really buy that, anyway, giving how McDaniels employed running backs. The fan gets to see him wave his hand once, maybe twice, in a game and suddenly this myth of him being completely out of shape is born.

Every time they showed him after a short run, he's is waving his hand to come off the field or sitting on the sidelines huffing and puffing or looking for oxygen.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm not looking for or expecting Chris Johnson....but i do expect my starting RB to have enough speed to burst through the hole....he doesn't. You can make excuses about the blocking if you want...but I haven't been impressed with him as a whole.

Although I've said on many occasions that I'm hoping to see more of the last two games TYPE of runner from him, because that felt better to me. But i have to see more of that to believe him to be that kind of RB. As of right now, he has a ton to prove to me to see him as a good starter.



Thats why I want us to sign a speed back. But thats me, i think knowshon in the zbs will do great and a speedster will complete the circle.

However, not many seem to agree with me.

GEM
07-14-2011, 05:44 PM
Thats why I want us to sign a speed back. But thats me, i think knowshon in the zbs will do great and a speedster will complete the circle.

However, not many seem to agree with me.

I don't think anyone is not agreeing with that thought. Most that have said anything negative have said that they don't think he is a total bust, there is some value there, he just isn't a full time, every down back or even a majority of the time back. He has some use, but we have to have a better player to compliment him.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:45 PM
Thats why I want us to sign a speed back. But thats me, i think knowshon in the zbs will do great and a speedster will complete the circle.

However, not many seem to agree with me.

Then what role does knowshon fill, the power back? If we sign speed, I think more no is regulated to a third down type back, catching passes out of backfield because he's certainly not power.

I'm not sure how more no will do in the zbs....but i hope it's the key for him. Perhaps it will help him nost having to do much reading...one cut and just go.

GEM
07-14-2011, 05:50 PM
Then what role does knowshon fill, the power back? If we sign speed, I think more no is regulated to a third down type back, catching passes out of backfield because he's certainly not power.

I'm not sure how more no will do in the zbs....but i hope it's the key for him. Perhaps it will help him nost having to do much reading...one cut and just go.

Dude danced in the backfield. The holes weren't gaping, but there were holes. I remember screaming numerous times about the damn dancing. When you have a shitty line, hold on to the damn ball, find a small crease and do with it what you can, fall forward. Don't dance, dance backwards, stumble and fall.

Northman
07-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Anyone with two functioning eyes can see that he is not a 1st round talent.

He is a good third down back.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:53 PM
Dude danced in the backfield. The holes weren't gaping, but there were holes. I remember screaming numerous times about the damn dancing. When you have a shitty line, hold on to the damn ball, find a small crease and do with it what you can, fall forward. Don't dance, dance backwards, stumble and fall.

Exactly. Drove me nuts.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 05:53 PM
He is interesting for sure, and jack of all master of none.

Not fast enough for speedy
Not strong enough for power
Not enough wiggle for scat

He is just a healthy (hopefully healthy) mix of all three. I do see him being a full time back or at least a 1st and 2nd down back.


The fact that he averages over 10 Yards Per Catch is extremely hard to ignore. And I think we can all agree it is not because knowshon is out there running routes like a WR and catching passes. Most of those are from screens. To me that shows that when the guy actually has more than .05 seconds to think and move without being hit, he can eat the defense for some good solid chunks of yards.


So he is the main back and we have our speedy to go with him. Just like when we had mike anderson and tatum bell. Knowshon is not as powerful as mike, but he has better wiggle and acceleration. Lets use him like we did with those two back in the day. Then bring in white or whoever to POUND once the defense is tired.

Which all leads to my personal RB wishlist of signing Derrick Locke and Mario Fannin....Locke for super fast blazing speed and fannin for some smash mouth power (assuming white cant come back from injury)

Northman
07-14-2011, 05:57 PM
I think there is an argument to be made that says if you are being paid like the #12 pick then you ought to be doing everything humanly possible to live up to that contract.

Woody says he is a bad lockerroom guy.

:whoknows:

No ******* shit. If he cant play at an elite level he better give back some of that money. Why should Denver be accountable to pay him millions for not living up to the #12 status? Jesus christ BTB is breaking my heart with all his whining already.

GEM
07-14-2011, 05:58 PM
That is where we do differ, UR. I see him as a 3rd down back. Until he can prove otherwise, I don't see him as the guy to get you 5-7 on 1st, or 3-5 on 2nd. I think he is good for the short distances on 3rd. I do agree with you though on his catch abilities, he can make a defense pay there, but if he becomes a token screen guy, defenses can zero in and shut those down. It's just a tough call either way.

But, I have no faith in the guy, so that's probably why we see it differently.

Northman
07-14-2011, 06:00 PM
Is that saying much for Moreno or just that it was a weak RB class?

We should have drafted Orakpo. PERIOD.

I am inclined to say that neither Moreno or Ayers are performing for where they were drafted. To think we could have had Orakpo and Matthews on the Broncos and instead we got Moreno and Ayers.....PUKE!!!

And is still say Brown and Greene are better than Moreno. By miles. Its not their fault they already had starting running backs in front of them..... :lol:

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 06:03 PM
And beings that he is only in Denver during the season, he can normally breathe at no high strenuous work levels, but you put running on the guy, running with linemen blocking you or lbers leveling you and you have a guy who is in no way acclimated to PLAYING CONDITION.

There are reports that he is lazy in the locker room. Perhaps on top of not putting the time in Denver to stop the huffing and puffing, he's just generally not in great football shape. Not good shape plus poor conditioning. Recipe for disaster in the pulls and tears dept.


O thank you for the info, I did not know he was not practicing just playing games during the season, there for he was not in playing condition hence out of shape. :rolleyes:

I do think he was plain out of shape and needed better conditioning. Might be in part that McD did not work out the RB as much during practices as he did the receivers and the QBs. I might be on the RB coach not pushing them enough. Or Moreno pulling the injured card out too much to get away with not practicing.

underrated29
07-14-2011, 06:05 PM
And is still say Brown and Greene are better than Moreno. By miles. Its not their fault they already had starting running backs in front of them..... :lol:



dude Northy, Brown sucks ass man. Has he even had a 50 yards for indy. I bet my boy Delone Carter will take the job from him this yaer.

Greene did not have a starter in him this year. Thomas Jones left, but LT took the job from greene after like the 2nd game. I like greene a lot but he also has the Miles better team and Miles and Miles better Oline.

Northman
07-14-2011, 06:07 PM
dude Northy, Brown sucks ass man. Has he even had a 50 yards for indy. I bet my boy Delone Carter will take the job from him this yaer.

Greene did not have a starter in him this year. Thomas Jones left, but LT took the job from greene after like the 2nd game. I like greene a lot but he also has the Miles better team and Miles and Miles better Oline.

He is also far more durable than plastic man Moreno. LT gets to start based off who he is, not what he can do in present day just ask SD. All of indy's backs struggled this year with injuries but i still like what Brown can do when hitting the hole far more than Moreno. Moreno is simply a wannabe Reggie Bush and thats not saying much as it is.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 06:08 PM
Plus, his yards per catch were high because we threw to the back out of the backfield on third and long. It would be thrird and 13 and more no would get ten yards on a swing pass...while the defense was playing the 13 yard routes. More no won't have that kind of average without the spread offense.

We were terrible....terrible...at converting third downs. If moreno was so good out of the backfield, we would have been better. This is why looking at stats by themselves do not tell the story.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 06:10 PM
He is also far more durable than plastic man Moreno. LT gets to start based off who he is, not what he can do in present day just ask SD. All of indy's backs struggled this year with injuries but i still like what Brown can do when hitting the hole far more than Moreno. Moreno is simply a wannabe Reggie Bush and thats not saying much as it is.

But if Moreno was a 2nd rounder or 2rd he would be fine. He is producing well for us when he is on the field. I liked the number he gave us when playing. He averaged 10 yards per catch receiving which is a nice chunk of yards. That is just positive yardage not counting the yard from screen pass to get to line of scrimmage.

Northman
07-14-2011, 06:12 PM
But if Moreno was a 2nd rounder or 2rd he would be fine. He is producing well for us when he is on the field. I liked the number he gave us when playing. He averaged 10 yards per catch receiving which is a nice chunk of yards. That is just positive yardage not counting the yard from screen pass to get to line of scrimmage.

Damn right he would be fine because he wouldnt cost so much. But, whether or not he is producing is vastly debatable. Producing means not running into your players when holes are right next to them. As Rav already pointed out, his stats are inflated just like Orton's was. We played from behind A LOT so anytime a defense loosens up of course he is going to get garbage stats.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Plus, his yards per catch were high because we threw to the back out of the backfield on third and long. It would be thrird and 13 and more no would get ten yards on a swing pass...while the defense was playing the 13 yard routes. More no won't have that kind of average without the spread offense.

We were terrible....terrible...at converting third downs. If moreno was so good out of the backfield, we would have been better. This is why looking at stats by themselves do not tell the story.


But they should who is atleast producing and who is not. Is Ayers producing? Is Clay Mathews producing? They have stats. Moreno did have 34 first downs too which is somewhat proportional to the amount of carries he had. That is just by looking at overall leading rushers.

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 06:17 PM
Damn right he would be fine because he wouldnt cost so much. But, whether or not he is producing is vastly debatable. Producing means not running into your players when holes are right next to them. As Rav already pointed out, his stats are inflated just like Orton's was. We played from behind A LOT so anytime a defense loosens up of course he is going to get garbage stats.

That may be true but his stats are also hindered by the fact of playing most downs while cold. It was a comment from Terrell Davis about McDs play calling. You dont call a rushing play ever 2 sets of downs for a RB. He doesn't let a guy get into a groove and keeps him cold all game and injury prone. That is why I think he had problems running, he was cold most of the time. Straight from one of our great RB and a player who knows what it is like.

I see him more fluent and running better in a Fox system who knows how to use a RB correctly. McD did not utilize RBs correctly and loved the pass happy offense.

atwater27
07-14-2011, 06:20 PM
But Josh McDaniels was an idiot and his opinion should not be taken seriously.

Or wait, does that still count when its bagging on a first round pick?

LMAO...I guess you beat out JR as the first Joshie fanboy to rush to his defense.

GEM
07-14-2011, 06:21 PM
O thank you for the info, I did not know he was not practicing just playing games during the season, there for he was not in playing condition hence out of shape. :rolleyes:

I do think he was plain out of shape and needed better conditioning. Might be in part that McD did not work out the RB as much during practices as he did the receivers and the QBs. I might be on the RB coach not pushing them enough. Or Moreno pulling the injured card out too much to get away with not practicing.

Out of shape and poor conditioning. I say due to altitude. You say because he just was.

I say tomato, you say tomoto. Does it really freaking matter? He wasn't in playing condition and he hurt the team that pays him because of it.

atwater27
07-14-2011, 06:23 PM
Anyone with two functioning eyes can see that he is not a 1st round talent.

Post of the week. I like Knowshawn, I want him to succeed. He was just the wrong pick for us in the 1st. And that is an irrefutable fact.

topscribe
07-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Yes...

As I said over in the Woody's Mailbag thread (merge, maybe? dunno... this is from same article)...

McDaniels' opinion on who was a problem was in the locker room was a little skewed.

Well, when McDaniels' skewed opinion combines with Woody's skewed writing,
it tends to make one wonder where they truth really may lie . . .

-----

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 06:33 PM
Well, when McDaniels' skewed opinion combines with Woody's skewed writing,
it tends to make one wonder where they truth really may lie . . .

-----

Dang I thought you were gone for the day :tsk:

underrated29
07-14-2011, 06:34 PM
He is also far more durable than plastic man Moreno. LT gets to start based off who he is, not what he can do in present day just ask SD. All of indy's backs struggled this year with injuries but i still like what Brown can do when hitting the hole far more than Moreno. Moreno is simply a wannabe Reggie Bush and thats not saying much as it is.



Im not so sure...

Moreno has missed how many games with the broncos? 5 I think?

How many has Brown missed? A lot more if I am not mistaken. So brown is worse or even, in which case its a wash.

LT is not starting because of who he is. The jets are a superbowl contender they are not going to play LT because that is his name. They play the guy that gets it done. Shonne was struggling and fumbling.



I dont recall a lot of 3rd down passing to moreno. I just dont. I do recall a LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT of passing though. Which is why the broncos were near last in rush attempts right?

Do you guys remember when Moreno was already at like 100 yards at halftime in the cheifs game. After the half Josh pulled him and he had like 3 carries. Come on now, there is no consistency.

I also find it funny that 2 years ago people were saying yeah, yards schmards, what we need are points. Thats where it counts. not between the 20s.....Now we get a RB that has 17tds in the past two years out scoring our previos RBs by a lot...and then they want to complain about the yards.


How does everyone forget that we had the Wost OL
How does everyone forget that we had the Worst Rush attack
How does everyone forget that we had the Worst broncos Team EVER
How does everyone forget that we had the Least amount of rush attempts.


Yet none of that matters, and they want to comapre our guy to guys on palyoff teams. Like lesean mccoy, shonne greene and indianapolis.




There are only 2 RBs who played on crappy teams like the broncos that were head and shoulders above Knoshons. Benson and Hillis.

benson was on a playoff team that got decimated by injuries.
Hillis was on a crap team with a good young OL.


All the other RBs- deangelo, Stewart, Frank Gore, Lynch, Steven Jackson, Ryan Torain, Beanie wells, Hightower, etc etc etc etc etc....Did not do anything worth noting better than knowshon.

Where is the hate for those guys? especially since they played on better teams, with better OLs and coaching?

NightTerror218
07-14-2011, 06:46 PM
Im not so sure...

Moreno has missed how many games with the broncos? 5 I think?

How many has Brown missed? A lot more if I am not mistaken. So brown is worse or even, in which case its a wash.

LT is not starting because of who he is. The jets are a superbowl contender they are not going to play LT because that is his name. They play the guy that gets it done. Shonne was struggling and fumbling.



I dont recall a lot of 3rd down passing to moreno. I just dont. I do recall a LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT of passing though. Which is why the broncos were near last in rush attempts right?

Do you guys remember when Moreno was already at like 100 yards at halftime in the cheifs game. After the half Josh pulled him and he had like 3 carries. Come on now, there is no consistency.

I also find it funny that 2 years ago people were saying yeah, yards schmards, what we need are points. Thats where it counts. not between the 20s.....Now we get a RB that has 17tds in the past two years out scoring our previos RBs by a lot...and then they want to complain about the yards.


How does everyone forget that we had the Wost OL
How does everyone forget that we had the Worst Rush attack
How does everyone forget that we had the Worst broncos Team EVER
How does everyone forget that we had the Least amount of rush attempts.


Yet none of that matters, and they want to comapre our guy to guys on palyoff teams. Like lesean mccoy, shonne greene and indianapolis.




There are only 2 RBs who played on crappy teams like the broncos that were head and shoulders above Knoshons. Benson and Hillis.

benson was on a playoff team that got decimated by injuries.
Hillis was on a crap team with a good young OL.


All the other RBs- deangelo, Stewart, Frank Gore, Lynch, Steven Jackson, Ryan Torain, Beanie wells, Hightower, etc etc etc etc etc....Did not do anything worth noting better than knowshon.

Where is the hate for those guys? especially since they played on better teams, with better OLs and coaching?


Everyone is just out to get our own team and tear it down. Nobody is happy with the worst team in the league. They are all looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I blame the lock out for the tension and people tearing down our own players. Frustration is coming out against our own team. Woulda/coulda/shoulda...who gives a rats ass we have who we have support them. We all know changes are going to happen and some players we like are going to be gone as soon as lockout is lifted.

HORSEPOWER 56
07-14-2011, 08:18 PM
You just don't draft RB's early in the first round. Plenty of good running backs in late 1st, 2nd or 3rd round. Heck, Shanny made a living with late round or UFA guys.

And if you ask Josh McDaniels or Bill Belichick, you don't need to draft QBs in the first round because you can just find gems (no pun intended) later in the draft.

RBs worked well under Shanahan for the same reason that Arian Foster led the league last year under Kubiak. SCHEME. Replace Foster with Moreno in Houston and he's probably going to put up similar numbers. In the one game all last year where I actually saw us "feature" Moreno and commit to the running game, he ran all over KC.

Arian Foster, Adrian Peterson, or Chris Johnson wouldn't have had much better years than Moreno in our system because they wouldn't be "featured" like they are in their systems. How many times do you see CJ2K break a long run for a TD only after being shut down time and time again? Just like Barry Sanders, half of his carries are for little or no gain. He makes his money on "splash plays" but if you cut his carries in half and only let him touch the ball 15 times a game (like Moreno) do you think his numbers would be anywhere near comparable?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't buy all the "talent" hype. I believe that NFL players, barring uncontrollable injury, are all pretty much equal talent-wise. I believe that 3 things make one player "better" than his peers: 1) how hard he prepares mentally and physically (I mean in conditioning, they're all strong and fast), 2) his coaches/scheme and how well he is coached, and 3) his teammates and the support they provide him by doing their jobs.

There are a few exceptions of elite type players throughout league history whose physical attributes were just "superior" (Elway was one of those types, AP and CJ2K are those types nowadays), but if you think that Tom Brady is better because he's more athletic or has a better arm than other QBs, you're just wrong. Brady's success is much more 2 and 3 above than 1. Sure he works hard and has a fantastic mental grasp of the game, but he's just not beating anyone with his amazing athleticism.

All I'm saying is, I'd like to see us give Moreno a chance in a system that favors the running game. Just a chance. Shit, where would Brandon Lloyd be if we hadn't given him a chance in an offense that played to his strengths last year? Give Moreno some touches, let him get in rhythm with his O-line in a decent system, and see what he can do before we kick him to the curb and decide too early that we wasted another draft pick.

broncobryce
07-14-2011, 08:56 PM
Everyone is just out to get our own team and tear it down. Nobody is happy with the worst team in the league. They are all looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I blame the lock out for the tension and people tearing down our own players. Frustration is coming out against our own team. Woulda/coulda/shoulda...who gives a rats ass we have who we have support them. We all know changes are going to happen and some players we like are going to be gone as soon as lockout is lifted.

It's true. I've heard a billion times more good stuff about players that play for other teams than players that play here. I swear to god I can hear more good things about Broncos on a sparklers site.

broncobryce
07-14-2011, 08:58 PM
Dude danced in the backfield. The holes weren't gaping, but there were holes. I remember screaming numerous times about the damn dancing. When you have a shitty line, hold on to the damn ball, find a small crease and do with it what you can, fall forward. Don't dance, dance backwards, stumble and fall.

Then why did he average more yards per carry than any of our other backs?

BeefStew25
07-14-2011, 09:05 PM
Gotta love when people hold where a player was drafted against that player, as if the player has any control over where he was drafted. It's not Moreno's fault he was picked 12th overall.

It is not personal, it is business. Now someone put a horse head in his bed.

dogfish
07-14-2011, 09:19 PM
here's the bottom line on knowshon, IMO. . .

john elway and john fox probably watched every snap of the guy's career over the off-season-- and they're looking for someone else. . . i don't buy for a second that it's for depth purposes only. . . hunh-uh. . . this team has more holes than a bar dartboard, and they've very publicly announced that RB is our top priority. . .

we have one playable DT on the roster. . . defensive end is a big question mark. . . right cornerback has some questions. . . we have no proven tight end, and badly need an upgrade at fullback. . . we have a rookie penciled in at right tackle with no legit competition or depth. . .

so yea, not buying that our number one priority is getting a second back to spell moreno. . . sure looks to me like they're in the market for a starting back. . . there could be any number of reasons, but i'm pretty sure i can tell you the two main ones. . .

the first is obviously moreno's distressing lack of durability and conditioning-- anyone could tell you that. . . the other is that he really doesn't look like a good fit for the zone blocking scheme we're going back to featuring. . . coming out of college i thought he'd be an ideal fit for a ZBS, but after watching him two years i don't think that's the case at all. . . he who hesitates is lost in the ZBS, and knowshon is one of the more hesitant runners i've seen. . . he just isn't decisive enough to excell in a one cut and go role. . . dude has a pitiful fuggin' case of twinkletoes when he gets to the second level, and that junk don't fly. . . i'm sure fox saw that on film. . .


admittedly, the guy is a little tough to judge due to the injuries, but unfortunately those count against you at this level-- it's not like you can get some kind of exemption because it isn't fair. . . nobody would have cared how unbelievable barry sanders was if he hadn't held up. . . i think bo jackson might have been the best back of all time if he'd been healthy, but as it is he's nothing more than a footnote. . .

and complaints about the line and playcalling are very legit, but let's not forget that correll buckhalter averaged 5.4 YPC to knowshon's 3.8 in '09. . . so don't tell me moreno maximized every crease he did see. . . the overall numbers ain't bad, but he's going to have to stay on the field and show that he can impact games, or they won't matter much. . .

and i agree with GEM. . . his ass should be back in denver training now, no question in my mind. . . this could well be a make or break year for him, given that it'll be the third year of his contract and there's a new coaching staff. . . i don't know about you guys, but i'd have been on expedia booking my flight back to D-town about five minutes after hearing that a new RB was the team's top priority in FA. . .

it looks like the lockout will be settled in the next week-- time to get back to work. . . it only takes a month to adjust to altitude? his goal SHOULD be to show up at camp in the best shape of his life, particularly since conditioning has been his worst enemy. . . assuming that we're playing games that count in september, he only has six weeks to get re-acclimated if he shows up tomorrow. . . which suggests that he probably WON'T be in absolute tip-top condition for playing professional sports at altitude when camp starts. . .

which could potentially be a huge issue for him. . . both years, his problems have started long before the season began. . . he got hurt in the first quarter of our first pre-season game in '09, and hurt himself the first DAY of camp last year IIRC. . . he's never had a proper, full off-season/pre-season program to get himself in peak shape for the grind of the season, and it's really cost him. . . obviously you hope he's at least training in georgia, but it's still not like he was training up here. . . the broncos season was done by the first week of january-- he could have gone home for three or four months, and still been back up here working two months ago so that he'd be ready to hit the ground running the day camp opened, instead of cruising those first few days while you get readjusted to altitude like the other guys who just got back up here. . . makes me question just how bad he wants it. . . dude's name will be mud if he shows up, immediately tweaks a hamstring and subsequently misses most of camp. . .

he's not a bust. . . he's started most of the possible games and put up adequate overall numbers (if you're willing to overlook the way his nice receiving totals make up for weak rushing numbers). . . he's contributed, enough to show that he can at least play at this level. . . but he's the kyle orton of running backs so far-- very mediocre, very uninspiring. . . the kind of guy whos an acceptable stopgap, but you're always looking to upgrade the position. . . knowshon's grip on the starting job is tenuous at BEST-- if he doesn't show more this year he might find himself permanently relegated to the third-down back role, whether here or elsewhere. . . not a very satisfying career for a top-twelve pick and the first guy drafted at his position. . . he best recocnize and step his shiat up big time this year. . .

broncobryce
07-14-2011, 09:24 PM
RB is a big need because Fox uses 2. Right now we have Moreno and backups. Fox basically needs 2 starting caliber backs.

Now, I will admit Knowshon does need to perform better and stop getting hurt, but I think he is a very good player when healthy.

He is not a bellcow, but very few are in the NFL these days, hence why Fox wants 2 starting caliber backs.

CoachChaz
07-14-2011, 09:24 PM
Same people that blame the player for a lack of contribution will blame the coach, when a player they like does nothing.

Somehow Moreno is useless, but Royal is an All-Pro. Thats all I need to know when dissecting the quality of the arguments concetning talent on this team

dogfish
07-14-2011, 09:24 PM
Then why did he average more yards per carry than any of our other backs?

probably because none of our other backs belong in the league at all. . . ;)

Benetto
07-14-2011, 09:32 PM
Its all about the system and blocking scheme...An aging Mike Anderson, and Tatum Bell both almost rushed for 1K in 05...Tatum was like 70-80 yards short from what I remember.

I'm not ready to throw Moreno away just yet...He had 947 yards in 2009 and 779 in 2010...Those are pretty good numbers for 2009 & 2010 considering we had an absolute imbecile coach who called pass plays 9 times out of 10. Also considering he missed 5 or so games with a bad hamstring in 2010.

nevcraw
07-14-2011, 09:39 PM
Nobody ever answers this question then.


Knowshon has 2300+ yards and 17tds in 2 years, while not playing in everygame.



Just what exactly should his numbers be so he CAN PRODUCE as many are saying he did not?

Sweet!! We've got Kyle Orton the running back to go with Our Kyle Orton the QB. They blind you with their numbers so they don't have to pass the eye test.

Lonestar
07-14-2011, 09:40 PM
If you look to see how often players break 1000 yds rushing in NE, it sheds some light on the situation as well.

Everyone is used to have a 1k runner in the team. Therefore if you do not break that barrier your a bust.

In the last decade or so in NE IIRC they had 1 RB Do that twice. and he was already a 2000 yard runner when he was signed there.
But lately NADA. They have a bunch of role players. That all get yards b


Injust do not understand why they would hold Joshes off as to the same standards as mikeys. They are totally different If Pat had wanted mikeys scheme to stay he would have prmoted one of the assistants to run it. He wanted a change to the NE model.

dogfish
07-14-2011, 09:41 PM
Same people that blame the player for a lack of contribution will blame the coach, when a player they like does nothing.

Somehow Moreno is useless, but Royal is an All-Pro. Thats all I need to know when dissecting the quality of the arguments concetning talent on this team

then why not put your more educated opinion out there, instead of just stopping by to tell us we suck?

Canmore
07-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Sweet!! We've got Kyle Orton the running back to go with Our Kyle Orton the QB. They blind you with their numbers so they don't have to pass the eye test.

Too funny. :laugh:

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 10:31 PM
It is natural for fans to direct their hate and vitriol at the better players on the team. After all, they should be doing more...

That explains, quite extensively the pure hatred that Moreno recieves and the purely irrational analysis of many of the things posted on this board. Woody Paige feeds into that and his columns get eaten up and spit out and they become gospel because fans WANT to think they are true, even though they are not. That drives readership...in other words, he's not stupid.

Same thing is happening with his portrayal of Kyle Orton, which is both inaccurate and unfair.

Reality, however, suggests that Orton is a decent guy and will help Tebow, should Tebow be named the starter and Orton still be on the team. Reality also suggests that Moreno's supposed lack of stamina was more a product of McDaniels offensive scheme and the use of running backs.

Fans see a wave of a hand, or a pat on the helmet and ASSUME the player is out of shape, but true analysis of the situation brings it more likely that he was being called out of the game, and not asking out of the game. Further analysis of the use of "running backs" by Josh McDaniels shows this to be true. His offensive scheme, in five seasons, has never produced a 1,000-yard back, when much of the league (and especially Broncos fans) find that commonplace.

Many Broncos fans have severely failed at recognizing this difference in scheme, versus previous beliefs in football philosophy in inaccurately analyzing the last two seasons.

One of the players at the center of the mis-analyzation, is Knowshon Moreno.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 10:44 PM
Hah..

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 10:51 PM
Hah..

Reality isn't high on your agenda, I see.

You accused me of not watching games, yet it was obviously clear that the offensive line the last two years destroyed any hope that Moreno would be, as is frequently lamented, yet never substantiated, a "first-round running back."

His "dancing" as was complained about earlier was a result of one of the worst blocking schemes I've ever seen. But, of course, that's pinned on Moreno, because it's easier to do that than actually watch the games and address the problem.

BeefStew25
07-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Orton won't be a happy camper if he is backup.

dogfish
07-14-2011, 10:55 PM
Reality also suggests that Moreno's supposed lack of stamina was more a product of McDaniels offensive scheme and the use of running backs.



huh? so when he's on the bench gasping and bent over after four or five downs, it's a product of mcdaniels schemes?

also, i'm pretty sure guys don't tap out when they're supposed to leave the field for a different package to come on. . . if the coach takes you out, you just run off the field-- tapping out is taking yourself out of the game, which is why it necessitates a signal to the sideline. . . you don't see the slot receiver wave or tap his helmet before coming out when the base O comes back on. . .

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 10:59 PM
Reality also suggests that Moreno's supposed lack of stamina was more a product of McDaniels offensive scheme and the use of running backs.



huh? so when he's on the bench gasping and bent over after four or five downs, it's a product of mcdaniels schemes?

also, i'm pretty sure guys don't tap out when they're supposed to leave the field for a different package to come on. . . if the coach takes you out, you just run off the field-- tapping out is taking yourself out of the game, which is why it necessitates a signal to the sideline. . . you don't see the slot receiver wave or tap his helmet before coming out when the base O comes back on. . .

I have a hard time believing any of this, because of McDaniels previous use of running backs. Can you document his heaving fits on the sideline, or just hearsay and fan exaggeration?

MOtorboat
07-14-2011, 11:01 PM
OMG! Moreno raised his hand! He's out of shape! He's not an undefined "first-round back!" I hate him...AHHHHHHH!!!!!

dogfish
07-14-2011, 11:10 PM
I have a hard time believing any of this, because of McDaniels previous use of running backs. Can you document his heaving fits on the sideline, or just hearsay and fan exaggeration?

youtube got nothin', sorry. . . guess it never happened. . .

nevcraw
07-15-2011, 12:16 AM
It is natural for fans to direct their hate and vitriol at the better players on the team. After all, they should be doing more...

That explains, quite extensively the pure hatred that Moreno recieves and the purely irrational analysis of many of the things posted on this board. Woody Paige feeds into that and his columns get eaten up and spit out and they become gospel because fans WANT to think they are true, even though they are not. That drives readership...in other words, he's not stupid.

Same thing is happening with his portrayal of Kyle Orton, which is both inaccurate and unfair.

Reality, however, suggests that Orton is a decent guy and will help Tebow, should Tebow be named the starter and Orton still be on the team. Reality also suggests that Moreno's supposed lack of stamina was more a product of McDaniels offensive scheme and the use of running backs.

Fans see a wave of a hand, or a pat on the helmet and ASSUME the player is out of shape, but true analysis of the situation brings it more likely that he was being called out of the game, and not asking out of the game. Further analysis of the use of "running backs" by Josh McDaniels shows this to be true. His offensive scheme, in five seasons, has never produced a 1,000-yard back, when much of the league (and especially Broncos fans) find that commonplace.

Many Broncos fans have severely failed at recognizing this difference in scheme, versus previous beliefs in football philosophy in inaccurately analyzing the last two seasons.

One of the players at the center of the mis-analyzation, is Knowshon Moreno.

denial aint just a river in egypt.

zbeg
07-15-2011, 01:37 AM
I don't think anyone is not agreeing with that thought. Most that have said anything negative have said that they don't think he is a total bust, there is some value there, he just isn't a full time, every down back or even a majority of the time back. He has some use, but we have to have a better player to compliment him.

That's reasonable - I think he's shown flashes of talent and when he does get into the open field, I see things that impress me.

As for dancing in the backfield, it might be that he just doesn't have vision, but we know the line was horrible at opening holes. There weren't a lot of holes to run to. Look how bad the running game was when Moreno was hurt and we had to start whatever potted plant was backing him up (Maroney in particular).

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but when Plummer joined the Broncos and he played that first game against the Bengals, he was rushing his throws. I was timing his throws and how long he was in the pocket before that internal clock expired and he felt like he had to throw the ball. The league average at the time was around 4.2 seconds (listen, I had a lot of time on my hands in at the time; don't judge me), and Plummer averaged 3.2 seconds his first game as a Bronco.

He wasn't used to having that kind of offensive line protection, and the result was rushed throws. It took him a few games for that to go up, and when he did, he was a more effective quarterback.

Similarly, Knowshon might be dancing and poking around because he hasn't played at the NFL level with a good run-blocking line, so even when there are some holes for him to go through, he's just not used to it in the same way Plummer had no idea what to do when he actually had pass protection.

Maybe he'll be a bust, maybe not, but I want another year before making any final judgments about him.

dogfish
07-15-2011, 02:24 AM
That's reasonable - I think he's shown flashes of talent and when he does get into the open field, I see things that impress me.

As for dancing in the backfield, it might be that he just doesn't have vision, but we know the line was horrible at opening holes. There weren't a lot of holes to run to. Look how bad the running game was when Moreno was hurt and we had to start whatever potted plant was backing him up (Maroney in particular).

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but when Plummer joined the Broncos and he played that first game against the Bengals, he was rushing his throws. I was timing his throws and how long he was in the pocket before that internal clock expired and he felt like he had to throw the ball. The league average at the time was around 4.2 seconds (listen, I had a lot of time on my hands in at the time; don't judge me), and Plummer averaged 3.2 seconds his first game as a Bronco.

He wasn't used to having that kind of offensive line protection, and the result was rushed throws. It took him a few games for that to go up, and when he did, he was a more effective quarterback.

Similarly, Knowshon might be dancing and poking around because he hasn't played at the NFL level with a good run-blocking line, so even when there are some holes for him to go through, he's just not used to it in the same way Plummer had no idea what to do when he actually had pass protection.

Maybe he'll be a bust, maybe not, but I want another year before making any final judgments about him.

my real problem with him hasn't been dancing behind the line, so much as at the second level when he does clear it (it's silly to blame the guy when he gets hit in the backfield or there is no hole). . . i just think he hasn't adjusted his game to the NFL yet, to the speed of the NFL-- which is still a step up from the SEC. . . i feel like he tries to go to his stutterstep before he clears traffic-- and even if he can make the first guy miss, it takes away enough of his acceleration that the pursuit catches him. . . he was fast enough to get away with it in college, and he's not here. . . i feel like he leaves a lot of yards on the field, which i believe is definitely born out by the overwhelming discrepancy between his and buck's YPC in '09. . .

i will reiterate-- i don't think he's a bust, and don't think the term will ever be applicable. . . even at the level he's at now, he's a decent NFL player. . . as with most players, whether he gets beyond that will probably be mostly determined by his desire, and his ability to stay healthy. . . so far in his short NFL career, i don't think he's ever been able to get fully healthy, fully in shape and fully in rhythm. . . i don't think we've ever seen the short area burst that he displayed in college. . . and that stuff's not all his fault by any means, but i do sometimes question his toughness and ability to play through pain effectively. . .

still, he does have value. . . he's a good goal line runner and a strong receiver. . . and i certainly do think he's capable of playing considerably better than he has to this point, if he can ever stay on the field. . . in any case, there won't be any excuses after this year-- fox WILL pound the ball, moreno will get plenty of carries even if he is the number two back in the rotation. . . we brought in a good O-line coach, and fox and mccoy worked together in carolina-- it shouldn't be any problem to tweak mccoy's system to fit fox's run-heavy philosophy. . . and we're going back to the ZBS, which moreno should theoretically be a great fit for. . . although i don't ever really see him becoming an elite back, a modest breakout season isn't out of the question. . .

but if his career continues the way it's been going, i see him getting relegated to a glorified third-down back pretty soon. . . it might be his best fit at this level if the durability problems continue, as it would maximize his receiving ability while minimizing the wear and tear. . . i won't be surprised if that's basically what fox and co. have in mind for him this year if they can get the guy they want in FA. . . we'll see soon enough. . .

even then, i don't think he's a bust if he fills the role well. . . disappointment might be an applicable term though, given our investment in him. . .

SOCALORADO.
07-15-2011, 07:58 AM
Another negative about knowshow is his excessive, jerk celebrations.
Knowshow scores on a 2 yard run and its DEN 7 KC 47, and knowshow goes into the biggest celebration, taunting opposing fans, and making a complete fool of himself.
Those jerk celebrations never seem to go over well with the fans when your team is getting its ass kicked.
Just sayin.

TXBRONC
07-15-2011, 08:22 AM
Every time they showed him after a short run, he's is waving his hand to come off the field or sitting on the sidelines huffing and puffing or looking for oxygen.

Maybe it is just preception but it sure does seem to me that after every carry for positive yardage he takes himself out of the game to catch his breath.

TXBRONC
07-15-2011, 08:55 AM
Sweet!! We've got Kyle Orton the running back to go with Our Kyle Orton the QB. They blind you with their numbers so they don't have to pass the eye test.

Championship!! :lol:

BroncoStud
07-15-2011, 10:05 AM
Exactly how I feel about Moreno.

The guy is just not that talented of a runningback. There is nothing about his game that stands out to you, he is just solid or okay in most areas. He can't beat you on the edge, he is not a power guy, his vision is very suspect, he has minimal agility, and he fumbles too much for my liking.

If you are going to take a runningback in the first round, especially 12th overall, he had better well be a special talent with a lot of upside. Like a Chris Johnson, or a Adrian Peterson, a CJ Spiller, or a Darren McFadden.

I agree with that. Jack-of-all-Trades and master of none. I think he would be a solid BACKUP, but he isn't going to be elite. Still, he can be productive if used properly. We'll see. I'd like to see us sign Michael Bush.

HammeredOut
07-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Should have taken Orakpo.

Ziggy
07-15-2011, 10:46 AM
It's my personal policy to give every draft pick 3 years to prove himself. Moreno lacks elite speed, so did Terell Davis. The difference is, I don't see the vision and power in Knowshon that I did in TD.

I'm still not writing the kid off until he plays in an offense that is commited to the run, and has an improved line. I think the Broncos will be both this season. If Knowshon is a player, he'll be able to show it this year. If not, then he looks to be a career 3rd down back, ala Kevin Faulk.

BroncoNut
07-15-2011, 10:49 AM
If he was sucking air half way through season or near end....that is NOT ALTITUDE, that is flat out not being in shape. You dont need to train in altitude very long to get use to it. Try playing sports and sea level then going to 4,000 (not quite mile but close). It did not take long to get use to it, month maybe. Then again I was playing rugby, soccer and lacrosse (no football at my college). Just living in denver you will get use to the altitude.

what position did you play in rugby?

I am not that impressed with Moreno, but still hold out hope for him He certainly doesn't seem to possess that breakaway speed/2nd gear from what I've seen

NightTerror218
07-15-2011, 11:31 AM
youtube got nothin', sorry. . . guess it never happened. . .

are you sure it was not part of his hamstring injury?

NightTerror218
07-15-2011, 11:34 AM
Maybe it is just preception but it sure does seem to me that after every carry for positive yardage he takes himself out of the game to catch his breath.

He has also be injured a lot and hamstring injuries are a pain in the ass if not healed 100%. He is very injury prone and IMO its because he is playing cold, never given enough carries to warm up in the games. I have to agree with Terell Davis on this one.

NightTerror218
07-15-2011, 11:38 AM
what position did you play in rugby?

I am not that impressed with Moreno, but still hold out hope for him He certainly doesn't seem to possess that breakaway speed/2nd gear from what I've seen

I was a back. I started at outside/inside center. I was the backup scrum half too. Then I got stocky and was moved to a flanker.

BroncoNut
07-15-2011, 11:59 AM
I was a back. I started at outside/inside center. I was the backup scrum half too. Then I got stocky and was moved to a flanker.

who'd you play for? I played flyhalf, fullback winger. , , just about everything past the 8man at one time or another. , but mostly those 3positions.

NightTerror218
07-15-2011, 12:31 PM
who'd you play for? I played flyhalf, fullback winger. , , just about everything past the 8man at one time or another. , but mostly those 3positions.

I played for my college Oregon Tech. We played against other colleges, smaller universities and community colleges. We were a program rather then a school sport, like a club.

Buckin' Gator
07-15-2011, 01:49 PM
Personally, I think that Moreno can make a turn-around in his NFL career.
What he needs, (jmoho) is a strong 'old school' HBC, and a strong leader at QB.

With Fox and Tebow he gets both.
And with Tebow at QB, the other runners get the same kind of help that Gaffney & Royal provide for Lloyd.
And last night Tebow expressed confidence in Moreno's talent level, when it is properly applied anyway.
And in the 'strong D - injury prone' NFL, much like in the SEC, running by committee is the better way to go imo. Get Moreno some help and see how he does.

It's still up to him as an individual to DO EVERYTHING that will lead to his future success.
But now he won't have any good excuses is he doesn't succeed.
And I see 2011 as his DEFINING season. It's time to either put out, or get out.... :coffee:

NightTerror218
07-15-2011, 01:59 PM
Personally, I think that Moreno can make a turn-around in his NFL career.
What he needs, (jmoho) is a strong 'old school' HBC, and a strong leader at QB.

With Fox and Tebow he gets both.
And with Tebow at QB, the other runners get the same kind of help that Gaffney & Royal provide for Lloyd.
And last night Tebow expressed confidence in Moreno's talent level, when it is properly applied anyway.
And in the 'strong D - injury prone' NFL, much like in the SEC, running by committee is the better way to go imo. Get Moreno some help and see how he does.

It's still up to him as an individual to DO EVERYTHING that will lead to his future success.
But now he won't have any good excuses is he doesn't succeed.
And I see 2011 as his DEFINING season. It's time to either put out, or get out.... :coffee:


I agree with Moreno could have a defining season for him. He ran better at the end of the season when the O-Line was set (not changing positions) and could gel together. But going back to zone block would help the blocking for him. BUT that all depends on if he can be healthy. This is his year to show what he has and it has to be. 1st yr is a given to a rookie to not produce high, last year he was injured a lot. This year has to be it. He has no choice but to produce.

Canmore
07-15-2011, 02:06 PM
I agree with Moreno could have a defining season for him. He ran better at the end of the season when the O-Line was set (not changing positions) and could gel together. But going back to zone block would help the blocking for him. BUT that all depends on if he can be healthy. This is his year to show what he has and it has to be. 1st yr is a given to a rookie to not produce high, last year he was injured a lot. This year has to be it. He has no choice but to produce.

This is definitely Moreno's put up season. It is his third season in the league. I hope he comes into training camp and stays healthy. He needs a solid training camp and season.

NightTerror218
07-15-2011, 02:18 PM
This is definitely Moreno's put up season. It is his third season in the league. I hope he comes into training camp and stays healthy. He needs a solid training camp and season.

He should flourish in the Fox regime. Since it is built around the running game. But knowing Fox he controls the game with running flows and controls the clock. He pounds the ball more then requiring breakthrough around the edge runs. So I could see many 5 yrd runs in Moreno future.

BigDaddyBronco
07-15-2011, 03:09 PM
He should flourish in the Fox regime. Since it is built around the running game. But knowing Fox he controls the game with running flows and controls the clock. He pounds the ball more then requiring breakthrough around the edge runs. So I could see many 5 yrd runs in Moreno future.

I'll take that over the 0 to 4 yard plays under McD.

BroncoStud
07-16-2011, 05:25 AM
Personally, I think that Moreno can make a turn-around in his NFL career.
What he needs, (jmoho) is a strong 'old school' HBC, and a strong leader at QB.

With Fox and Tebow he gets both.
And with Tebow at QB, the other runners get the same kind of help that Gaffney & Royal provide for Lloyd.
And last night Tebow expressed confidence in Moreno's talent level, when it is properly applied anyway.
And in the 'strong D - injury prone' NFL, much like in the SEC, running by committee is the better way to go imo. Get Moreno some help and see how he does.

It's still up to him as an individual to DO EVERYTHING that will lead to his future success.
But now he won't have any good excuses is he doesn't succeed.
And I see 2011 as his DEFINING season. It's time to either put out, or get out.... :coffee:

And somehow we have turned a K. Moreno thread into a Tim Tebow thread... :laugh::laugh:

sneakers
07-16-2011, 05:33 AM
I want him to do well, I just never liked him that much....he is like a rich man's Tatum Bell

FanInAZ
07-16-2011, 06:09 AM
And somehow we have turned a K. Moreno thread into a Tim Tebow thread... :laugh::laugh:

:lol: What's new? :lol:

Juriga72
07-16-2011, 09:40 AM
Didnt Orakpo have either the same or 2 more sacks then our very own MLB Dj WIlliams last year....I think so.


Orak is good, but played on a great defense, after shanny made their defense suck as bad as ours, Orak attack went flat. I am not so sure he would do so much better here.

Orakpo also had Fattywad Albert in front of him....

36 tackles
20 asst
8.5 sacks
2 pass D
2 FF

Ayers-
37 tackels
7 asst
2.0sacks
1 pass D
1 FF

AND thats after being marked for death after a Pro Bowl Rookie season

FYI...
Matthews-
54 tackles
6 asst
14 sacks
4 pass D
2 FF

I just threw up yet again

broncobryce
07-16-2011, 10:29 AM
Orakpo is a stud, but the whole "we should have taken this guy" argument is tired. You could say that in every draft. We should have taken Tom Brady! We should have taken Aaron Rodgers! We should have taken Clay Matthews!

Hey its true but a lot of teams passed on those guys. Hell I should have picked the right lottery numbers but I didn't so I guess the house I live in now will be fine.

Softskull
07-16-2011, 10:34 AM
Here's how I see it. Moreno has been in a pass first offense and had a couple of freak injuries his first two years. If he's healthy this year, I wouldn't be surprised if he hit 1300 yards, 10-14TD under Fox's system. He's a solid runner with good hands. I'm not ready to bury Moreno or Ayers just yet.

TXBRONC
07-16-2011, 10:57 AM
Here's how I see it. Moreno has been in a pass first offense and had a couple of freak injuries his first two years. If he's healthy this year, I wouldn't be surprised if he hit 1300 yards, 10-14TD under Fox's system. He's a solid runner with good hands. I'm not ready to bury Moreno or Ayers just yet.

I think it was Dog that pointed if Fox's believes in Moreno why is running back on par with defensive tackle? It doesn't make sense to say that depth at running back is equal to defensive tackle.

That aside I really do hope you're right. The only things that would make me happier is having a winning record and in the playoff hunt and if Tebow starts that he 's successful.

BeefStew25
07-16-2011, 11:29 AM
I don't really have much against Moreno. But drafting a RB that high seems kinda lame to me.

Buckin' Gator
07-16-2011, 01:27 PM
Gee, but that 'to a Tebow thread' stuff sure looks like 'bait' to me... :listen:
(but I'll pass) :coffee:

“We were 13th on offense last year. I certainly want more balance. We’ve got to run the ball more and better, and (another) running back is our No. 1 priority (in free agency).” John Fox to the DP

Running the ball was certainly a major issue for the Broncos. They averaged 96.5 yards per game which was 26th in the league. The team would have been ranked lower had Tim Tebow not picked up the pace on the ground in his last three games as the starter. :listen:

Moreno averaged 4.3 yards per game for 13 games. After missing most of training camp due to injury, Moreno only carried the ball 182 times. But Knowshon also had 37 catches for 372 yds, for a respectable 10.1 ypr. and 3 TD's making him also the #4 Bronco receiver in 2010. Tebow expressed his opinion that Knowshon 'has the talent' to be an NFL RB and had shown it 'at times' during last season.
In 13 gms/played KM's Run/Catch Total Off = 1,151 yds, for 5.2 yds/play on average.
It might not be All Pro, but I just can't see how that's a 'bust' either.

I still think that he can be a pretty good RB, but maybe not an 'every down' RB at the NFL level. Get him some help to keep his carries in the 17-23 per game range plus his 2-3 receptions and see what happens. I'd like to see Denver get a 2.5 to 3.5 ypc brusier to carry it for the short 'needed yards.' I'd really rather have a top FB for that role than just another RB; to block for the run and pass and to blast for the short but critical yards.

First Downs - 309 --- Opponents 334 --- Difference = 25 or less than 2 per game.
Two 1st downs and about 50 yds of offense on average was the difference.

Passing 1st Downs - Rush - Pass - Penalty:
Denver -- 81 - 204 - 24 = 309
Oppon --- 126 - 184 - 24 = 334
So it wasn't the number of 1st down's so much as not being able to run for a critical drive extending 1st when needed, at least before Tebow was the starter. ;)

Denver on the season rushing as a team (including Tebow), 3.9 ypc --- Opponents 4.7 ypc
Tebow's overall rushing on the season was 5.3 ypc, but as the starter it went up to 6.4 ypc.
IMOHO, Tim's running will be 'most effective' if kept to around 5-7 carries per game, and that's including his forced scramble runs.

What role do the QB sacks play, if any?
Denver 23 -- Oppon 40, of which Orton accounted for 34 of them for 243 lost yards.
Orton 2.62 sacks/gm, for 7.1 yds/sack, = 18.6 yds/gm
Tebow 2.00 sacks/gm, for 4.5 yds/sack, = 9 .0 yds/gm -- less than half of Orton's.

Denver's Turnover Ratio was a -9.
Tebow has already shown that at every level of play, HE takes care of the ball, both Int's & Fum's.
================

Maybe it's also time for the Broncos roster DL & LB's to step up and be better at their own jobs? But tell me, is this a 'normal' distribution of players at the positions?
Player Ht/Wt - Yrs Pro

DT
R.Fields 6-2 314 - 7 -- 22 Tkl, 0 Sac
K.Vickerson 6-5 321 - 6 -- 42 Tkl, 1 Sac
M.Thomas 6-3 316 - 5 -- 35 Tkl, 1 Sac

L.Louis 6-4 325 - 4 -- ??
Rookies = ZERO

DE
J.Hunter 6-4 271 - 6 -- 61 Tkl, 3 sac
R.McBean 6-5 297 - 4 -- 19 Tkl, 0 sac
D.Veikune 6-2 257 - 3 -- 5 Tkl, 0 sac

E.Dumervil 5-11 248 - 6 -- (injured)
M.Unrein 6-4 300 - 1 -- ??
Rookie Jeremy Beal 6-2 262 Okla
Rookie Nate Irving 6-1 240 NCSt

LB
M.Haggan 6-3 267 - 9 -- 87 Tkl, 5.0 sac
DJ.Williams 6-1 242 - 8 -- 119 Tkl, 5.5 sac
S.Larsen 6-2 243 - 4 -- 1 Tkl, 0 sac
J.Mays 5-11 246 - 4 -- 35 Tkl, 0 sac
W.Woodyard 6-0 222 - 4 -- 33 Tkl, 1 sac
R.Ayers 6-3 274 - 3 -- 39 Tkl, 1.5 sac
L.Robinson 6-2 256 - 1 -- 2 Tkl, 0 sac

B.Kelley 6-0 230 - 3
D.Douglas 6-1 240 - 2
Rookie V.Miller 6-3 246
Rookie M.McLaughlin 6-0 245
Rookie M.Mohamed 6-3 239

4 strings (12) of LB'ers, 3 & 1/2 strings (7) of DE's, but only 2 strings (4) of run stopping DT's?

BTW, can any of those 'unused' LB's play some at FB or RB? ;)

RB - Current Roster
C.Buckhalter 6-0 223 - 11 - 2.5 ypc (8 rec for 8.6 ypr)
L.Maroney 5-11 220 - 6 - 2.1 ypc (4 rec for 12.5 ypr)
K.Moreno 5-11 210 - 3 - 4.3 ypc (37 rec for 10.1 ypr) <<<
L.Ball 6-0 223 - 3 - 3.9 ypc (3 rec for 5.3 ypr)

LD.White 6-1 235 - 6 - ??
K.Eckel 5-11 237 - 5 - ??
J.Johnson 5-9 218 - 2 - ??
B.Minor 6-0 214 - 1 - ??
Four RB with ZERO 2010 stats???
===============

Can't stop the run (only 4 DT's).
Can't run the ball (with twice as many -8- RB's)
With 8 RB's on roster, and 5 of them with equal or more years in the NFL, how is the lack of running game production Moreno's fault? For right now, he's the best of the 8 on roster anyway.

Softskull
07-16-2011, 02:13 PM
I don't really have much against Moreno. But drafting a RB that high seems kinda lame to me.

I'm with you. But I can't bag on Moreno for where we drafted him. That year, not using the first five picks on defense was a crime. I personally wanted Jenkins (I wouldn't have complained if we grabbed Orakpo either).

Fox may not be sold on Moreno yet, nor should he be. He's shown flashes, but also shown he can get broken easily. That in itself is reason to pick up another quality back, especially in a run oriented system. Last year in Carolina, Williams went down, Goodson wasn't up to the task of picking up the slack. Two years ago he had two 1000 yard backs. It makes perfect sense to pick up another solid RB, especially if he wants his young QB to survive.

silkamilkamonico
07-16-2011, 02:55 PM
The "we should have taken this guy instead" argument is a broken record in Denver drafts.

Denver has been one of the worst drafting NFL teams in the early rounds since the mid 1990's.

Juriga72
07-16-2011, 03:11 PM
The "we should have taken this guy instead" argument is a broken record in Denver drafts.

Denver has been one of the worst drafting NFL teams in the early rounds since the mid 1990's.

Well.... not really as we drafted 4 Pro Bowlers in the first round since 1999.

As for the 2009 Draft..... We had a young growing very good Offense that even a running back signed from a cell phone kiosk was able to run behind our line......

Having the 30th ranked defense.... well... hmmmm what did we draft?

What should we HAVE drafted? well......

Below is a list of prospects by round who could be targeted by the Denver Broncos.

Denver Broncos Draft Board
First Round: Rey Maualuga MLB USC, B.J. Raji Boston College, James Laurinaitis MLB Ohio State, Aaron Curry MLB Wake Forest


Lets see...... Defense, defense,defense, and Defense.......ok TWO top 20 picks and we could have done BETTER.






Second Round: Tyson Jackson LDE LSU, Duke Robinson OG Oklahoma, Donald Brown RB Connecticut, Javon Ringer RB Michigan State, Eric Wood C Louisville

Offense mostly...... I could live with that

Third Round: Ron Brace DT Boston College, Jasper Brinkley LB South Carolina, Nic Harris SS Oklahoma, James Davis RB Clemson

Fourth Round: Chip Vaughn SS Wake Forest, Josh Mauga MLB Nevada, Courtney Greene S Rutgers, Daryl Richard LDE Georgia Tech



As it were.... 3 LB's picked AFTER our first "Man .....McDouchie really is lost pick" made the Pro Bowl.......

After the second "Man.... McDouchie is SO far in over his head" pick... THIS years NFL Defensive MVP was still on the board.

THEN in 2009 after our defensive collapse (yet again.....) 2 first round picks on .......




wait for it......





wait..........


offense

broncobryce
07-16-2011, 03:59 PM
Raji and tyson jackson were both gone by the time we picked. Who knows but I think denver would have taken raji

TXBRONC
07-16-2011, 04:01 PM
Raji and tyson jackson were both gone by the time we picked. Who knows but I think denver would have taken raji

Top 10.

MOtorboat
07-16-2011, 04:04 PM
Second-guess drafting is inane.

TXBRONC
07-16-2011, 04:25 PM
Second-guess drafting is inane.

True it doesn't change anything but this is an opinion board where speculation happens routinely.

MOtorboat
07-16-2011, 05:20 PM
Second-guess drafting is inane.

True it doesn't change anything but this is an opinion board where speculation happens routinely.

Sure is. Doesn't mean that opinion isn't a stupid one, either.

atwater27
07-16-2011, 05:54 PM
I don't really have much against Moreno. But drafting a RB that high seems kinda lame to me.

I know!! And then we drafted a RB high the next year too!

SoCalImport
07-16-2011, 06:25 PM
I know!! And then we drafted a RB high the next year too!

Had to think about that fer a sec but at least this one can perform a forward pass with some success.

Lonestar
07-16-2011, 10:05 PM
The "we should have taken this guy instead" argument is a broken record in Denver drafts.

Denver has been one of the worst drafting NFL teams in the early rounds since the mid 1990's.

Amen brother your preaching to the choir.

tubby
07-16-2011, 10:25 PM
Just a reminder of my draft picks at the time:



12- Orakpo- "Dominant" translates to any team.
18- Ayers- If he slid, which he did, you grab him.
37- Maualuga- Sliding....you get him.
48- Moore- Solid player....good value.
64- Jarron Gilbert- value pick.
114- Brinkley- like his potential.
132- Nic Harris- my guy.
141- Ringer- better get a RB or homies will lose it.
174- Pryor- yeah, he's a character....but it's pick 174
226- Shipley- filling a need.

Worst post ever. LOL

:coffee:

tubby
07-16-2011, 10:28 PM
Get DeAngelOh Williams and Michael Bush.

Top priority.

Tned
07-16-2011, 10:33 PM
Sure is. Doesn't mean that opinion isn't a stupid one, either.

Is the opinion stupid or the opinion about the opinion? Things that make you go Hmmmm...

MOtorboat
07-16-2011, 10:51 PM
Sure is. Doesn't mean that opinion isn't a stupid one, either.

Is the opinion stupid or the opinion about the opinion? Things that make you go Hmmmm...

If your opinion is uneducated and lacking consistent logic, why is it that my opinion can not point out this?

BeefStew25
07-16-2011, 10:53 PM
If your opinion is uneducated and lacking consistent logic, why is it that my opinion can not point out this?

Because your opinion is whiny.

tubby
07-16-2011, 10:53 PM
calm down mighty mouse.

#27 blows. #changehisnumber

Tned
07-16-2011, 10:56 PM
If your opinion is uneducated and lacking consistent logic, why is it that my opinion can not point out this?

It is not ok to tell other posters that they are their ideas are stupid, idiotic, etc.

Anyway, if you need clarification, I suggest you PM one of the mods.

TXBRONC
07-16-2011, 11:04 PM
calm down mighty mouse.

#27 blows. #changehisnumber

Do you have suggestion for what number Moreno should have instead of 27?

dogfish
07-16-2011, 11:06 PM
If your opinion is uneducated and lacking consistent logic, why is it that my opinion can not point out this?

my opinion can kick your opinion's ass. . . . :heh:

tubby
07-16-2011, 11:06 PM
Do you have suggestion for what number Moreno should have instead of 27?

#26

unless the Broncos bring back Portis.

Wait, just give him #22. :coffee:

Tned
07-16-2011, 11:07 PM
my opinion can kick your opinion's ass. . . . :heh:

Dog, please shoot me....

Nomad
07-16-2011, 11:10 PM
#26

unless the Broncos bring back Portis.

Wait, just give him #22. :coffee:

DoubleDeuce.....my younger son has worn that number for a few years now in baseball and football....he's done a great job representing the number!

Ravage!!!
07-17-2011, 08:23 PM
DoubleDeuce.....my younger son has worn that number for a few years now in baseball and football....he's done a great job representing the number!

agreed. This way, if Moreno plays like shit, we can call it like we see it...... he layed a double-deuce on the field again. :beer:

HORSEPOWER 56
07-20-2011, 12:52 PM
Another negative about knowshow is his excessive, jerk celebrations.
Knowshow scores on a 2 yard run and its DEN 7 KC 47, and knowshow goes into the biggest celebration, taunting opposing fans, and making a complete fool of himself.
Those jerk celebrations never seem to go over well with the fans when your team is getting its ass kicked.
Just sayin.

So like when Lloyd and Gaffney kept doing the "you can't see me" hand wave for every routine catch during the 59-14 Jokeland debacle or during the Ravens blowout loss? Something like that?

At 4-12, nobody on our roster deserves to be celebrating shit. Post a winning record this year and maybe they can have their dancing privileges back...

:coffee:

MileHighCrew
07-20-2011, 01:15 PM
So like when Lloyd and Gaffney kept doing the "you can't see me" hand wave for every routine catch during the 59-14 Jokeland debacle or during the Ravens blowout loss? Something like that?

At 4-12, nobody on our roster deserves to be celebrating shit. Post a winning record this year and maybe they can have their dancing privileges back...

:coffee:

I hate the stupid hand wave.

NightTerror218
07-20-2011, 01:23 PM
I hate the stupid hand wave.

tell them no more WWF watching to pick up crappy celebrations.

Dzone
07-20-2011, 02:21 PM
Bring on Deangelo Williams and Portis

NightTerror218
07-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Moreno has been working out in Denver and has lost weight

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/07/21/lighter-knowshon-attends-camp-landow/7882/

Lonestar
07-21-2011, 02:54 PM
Another fly weight RB just what we need he did not have the strength before losing 8 pounds should not help.

dogfish
07-21-2011, 03:19 PM
doesn't exactly sound like he's preparing to be a workhorse. . . guys have carried the load at that weight in the NFL, but very few in recent years. . . dude better be lightning quick-- or better yet, he should build some legit muscle weight back on. . . i can't see him holding up for 300 touches at that weight, especially since he's already had injury problems. . .

we'll see. . . at least he's managed to work out without hurting himself, and it is good to hear that he's in denver and supposedly in shape. . .

broncohead
07-21-2011, 03:21 PM
People are too obsessed with weight but complain that a player doesn't have the speed or explosion they want. Can't always have it both ways. This should make him faster and more explosive which he lacks for the type of RB he is. He is not a power back. Also lighter doesn't mean weaker.

Buff
07-21-2011, 05:14 PM
So like when Lloyd and Gaffney kept doing the "you can't see me" hand wave for every routine catch during the 59-14 Jokeland debacle or during the Ravens blowout loss? Something like that?

At 4-12, nobody on our roster deserves to be celebrating shit. Post a winning record this year and maybe they can have their dancing privileges back...

:coffee:

I agree, but at least in Lloyd and Gaffney's defense, they were solid and consistent performers individually. It does annoy me when we're losing, but they are at least making plays.

I remember Nate Webster and Jamie Winborn would celebrate after giving up a 6 yard run on 1st down or a 5 yard run on 3rd and 4 as if they had made a play. I HATED those guys.

GEM
07-21-2011, 05:43 PM
Bring on Deangelo Williams and Portis

Shoot me in the face if they pay Portis any money. Dude is done.

GEM
07-21-2011, 05:44 PM
I agree, but at least in Lloyd and Gaffney's defense, they were solid and consistent performers individually. It does annoy me when we're losing, but they are at least making plays.

I remember Nate Webster and Jamie Winborn would celebrate after giving up a 6 yard run on 1st down or a 5 yard run on 3rd and 4 as if they had made a play. I HATED those guys.

That's cause Webster was too busy looking at the young girls in the stands.

Tned
07-21-2011, 05:54 PM
Time to give Larsen the rock.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
07-21-2011, 06:01 PM
Now people are complaining about Moreno dropping 20 lbs? Give me a break, just when you thought there wasn't anything else to complain about.

I kind of hope he gets traded to a team with a competent offensive system and an O-Line that doesn't look like a mismatched piece of work on more snaps than not... just to see some here eat a delicious serving of black bird.

dogfish
07-21-2011, 06:05 PM
Time to give Larsen the boot, and sign Vontae Leach or Le'ron McClain.

smartest thing we could do. . . .

Lonestar
07-21-2011, 08:03 PM
Be is just another easy to hurt get injured by at less than 215. Just another one of mikeys type RB. We need power for Johns type of scheme some one that can control the Los.

I could care less if any of them have "speed" we have lacked a back that can convert 3rd and short since marine mike left town.

Of course we had Hillis but then we had super flywieght OL guys. And in 09 I doubt anyone could have run behind that Piss poor OL.

In 10 we had the horses late in the year after Harris finAlly got his ass back on the field but by then it was two little to late.

Let's hope the Moreno becomes the RB y'all need him to be, but losing weight I do not see him being a powr back.

shank
07-21-2011, 08:09 PM
knomo is fine. woody is dumb. bring in deangelo and a power runner (or a healthy lendale) for a legit 1-2-3.

dogfish
07-21-2011, 08:12 PM
I could care less if any of them have "speed" we have lacked a back that can convert 3rd and short since marine mike left town.



you could care less, but understand that fox doesn't agree with you, and he'll almost certainly try to add a speed back. . . quite possibly this year, if he can get the guy he wants in FA. . . he almost always had a speed back in carolina-- they spent a first on desean foster although they had steven davis, then they drafted deangelo williams, and last year they added mike goodson. . .

carolina spent first round picks on backs three times while fox was there, so i hope people don't crap themselves when we do the same sometime in the next couple of years. . .

MOtorboat
07-21-2011, 09:51 PM
Word is Moreno isn't working out at all this offseason.

What a lazy *******.

underrated29
07-21-2011, 10:04 PM
I agree, but at least in Lloyd and Gaffney's defense, they were solid and consistent performers individually. It does annoy me when we're losing, but they are at least making plays.

I remember Nate Webster and Jamie Winborn would celebrate after giving up a 6 yard run on 1st down or a 5 yard run on 3rd and 4 as if they had made a play. I HATED those guys.




But you guys honestly couldn't tell the difference between knowshon trying to bring a spark to the team and celebrating like an idiot Webster / winborn style.....

I find that hard to believe....when renowned scored against the fair after we were blown out ir he thermo chargers no one said he was celebrating or anything. Yet knowshon it is

BeefStew25
07-21-2011, 10:06 PM
Knoshawn needs to be pushed. He needs a legitimate replacement behind him to spark his competitive fire.

He needs Valtrex.

shank
07-22-2011, 01:49 AM
But you guys honestly couldn't tell the difference between knowshon trying to bring a spark to the team and celebrating like an idiot Webster / winborn style.....

I find that hard to believe....when renowned scored against the fair after we were blown out ir he thermo chargers no one said he was celebrating or anything. Yet knowshon it is

i agree with the parts of this post that were written in english.

Ravage!!!
07-22-2011, 08:33 PM
I think Moreno is accepting that his role will be regulated to a third down back at 200 lbs. Faster, quicker.. but definitely not the workhorse.

BroncoNut
07-27-2011, 10:33 AM
Time to give Larsen the rock.

holy cow, I forgot about the dude. Nice Scandinavian name. give him the rock

underrated29
07-27-2011, 11:04 AM
i agree with the parts of this post that were written in english.



That is my phone and the autocorrect. Its a mother f*****

Lonestar
07-27-2011, 11:18 AM
That is my phone and the autocorrect. Its a mother f*****

Yes those of us with "smart" phones understand. Those that do not Piss and moan about lt I have big hands and fingers and hitting this baby keys on a touch screen is also a challenge.

Ravage!!!
07-27-2011, 11:25 AM
turn off autocorrect. Its the best thing I ever did

underrated29
07-27-2011, 02:18 PM
turn off autocorrect. Its the best thing I ever did



how does one go about doing that?

-you have to remember who you are talking to here

Agent of Orange
07-28-2011, 02:39 AM
That entire article makes me shake my head.

At this point I'd just like to see what Moreno can do behind a competent O-Line w/ an offensive playbook that exceeds the complexity of the bush-league crap we've been blessed with here the last couple of seasons.

Lets not pretend that he's done a lot when making it to the second level. We've seen a lot of stumbling and finding tacklers from him. He really hasnt taken advantage of any of the chances that were there.

A good offensive line can make any RB look good. A good offensive line wouldnt make Moreno special in any way. Moreno needs to make stuff happen and the second level to show his worth and he has been awful so far. That hasnt been the lines fault that he falls down or finds defenders when he does make it to the secondary.

Tned
07-28-2011, 07:30 AM
Let's hope the Moreno becomes the RB y'all need him to be...

:confused:

Y'all being who? Broncos fans?

:confused:

Juriga72
07-28-2011, 07:41 AM
:confused:

Y'all being who? Broncos fans?

:confused:

I have a feeling there will be new members to "Miami Dolphins Message Board" very soon...