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Ziggy
11-07-2008, 11:24 AM
Yes, I've seen the fire Slowick threads. I thought I'd just get one thread going about the D in general, SLowick included. Do I think he needs to be fired? Yes, along with the rest of his defensive staff. I also think that the talent base on this D is horrid. This team needs more than coaches.

The D line. Anyone else notice that no D lineman had more than 1 tackle last night. That's pitiful. The Browns averaged 5.5 yards per rush, and Quinn had all night to throw the ball. Once again, we made a QB look like he belongs in the hall of fame.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It all starts up front. Why is the offense averaging 25 points a game? Because the offensive line has been shored up. Imagine what kind of numbers they could be putting up if our D could get off of the field. Any NFL coach would take a 25 point per game average from the offense and be happier than a fat kid in a donut store. The problem is that our D is giving up 28 a game.

This D isn't going to get better this season. We just don't have the talent along the defensive line. Yes, we're lacking talent at the LB and safety spot also, but the D line is the biggest problem IMO. Without making some major changes there in the offseason, this team will struggle year after year. Shanny, you've done a great job bringing in offensive talent over the last few years. It's time to adress the D.

Flatinum
11-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Agreed. How many times last night did we see a dlineman or lb over pursue, not stay at home....etc. It was pathetic. The Browns ball carrier didn't even have to cutback most of the time because the first Bronco defender was already past him and not in position to make the tackle.

Is this scheme or talent? I think it's a little of both. Either way I think you're right - it's not going to improve this year with the players they have out there.

broncofaninfla
11-07-2008, 11:59 AM
I agree, it's scheme AND talent. We need a complete over haul. Fan's, players and media all make fun of how pathetic we are on defense. It's embarrassing. There isn't a team in the NFL that can't dominate our DL or an RB that can't take it to the house against our LB's.

BigDaddyBronco
11-07-2008, 12:03 PM
Niko over-pursued every time he had a chance to make a play. Made me puke in my mouth a little.

I did like the way Woodyard played, he can tackle and plays like he cares. He's a keeper.

Flatinum
11-07-2008, 12:05 PM
Niko over-pursued every time he had a chance to make a play. Made me puke in my mouth a little.

I did like the way Woodyard played, he can tackle and plays like he cares. He's a keeper.

I like the way Woodyard played as well. He should start the rest of the year.

LRtagger
11-07-2008, 12:08 PM
I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope we hire an entirely new defensive staff and go all out on D in the draft. I hope Shanny hires a competant DC with a proven track record, lets him bring in his own staff, and hands him our very young D and lets him mold them into a sold D. Kind of like what we did with Bates, but we need to be more patient with it. I am confident that if we had stuck with Bates, we would be at least a top 20 defense at this point.

This is our only chance on defense IMO. It will be a project and will take some time, but if we keep signing retreads and crappy DCs, this is what our defense will continue to amount to.

I really would like to bring Ed Donatell back to our sidelines and let him rework this D. He was a secondary coach for us in our SB years and has turned around some very bad defenses in his career. If we can have a solid defensive draft this year and pick up 2 or 3 key FAs, then I think we can be a middle of the pack D next year (that is assuming Slowik gets canned). In 3-4 years I think we can have a top 10 defense in this league. By that time our offense should be hitting full stride and we will be an all around great team.

broncofaninfla
11-07-2008, 12:10 PM
I agree, Woodyard is playing good but ALL of our LB's over pursue. It must have something with how fast opposing players bust through our DL. It's like we don't even have a DL.

Retired_Member_001
11-07-2008, 12:13 PM
I like the way Woodyard played as well. He should start the rest of the year.

I was thinking the same thing, Woodyard was absolutely excellent. He played much better than any of our other linebackers. Much better than Nate Webster.

G_Money
11-07-2008, 12:21 PM
The problem with it being talent is that we don't have an easy fix for that.

Great DL don't normally hit the FA Market. They get franchised, locked in to long-term, very expensive deals by their teams, or become malcontents and problem children who have to be traded with all their accompanying baggage. Sometimes they lose their baggage at their next stop...and sometimes it all comes with em.

If you draft DL, then you normally have to wait a couple of years for the full impact to show. Sedrick Ellis was widely regarded as a great DL. How's he doing in his rookie year? Glen Dorsey?

A top-5 or a top-10 pick doesn't normally come in and treat opposing OL like red-headed stepchildren. Normally it's the other way around. Building a great defensive line out of kids requires a tremendous teacher. Something we don't have. The Steelers have a great, GREAT DL this year, but those guys have been there a while, matured, and isn't their DL coach in his 15th or 18th season or something?

A great teacher with a knowledge of the position and the ability to coach the same scheme since forever. Sounds like what our running game used to be.

We have no defensive continuity. Our DL are sometimes playing a 4-3 (badly) and sometimes a 3-4 (which they don't know how to do either). We have a bunch of castoffs, injured, and young kids playing. They get stout in goal-line situations - Robertson and Thomas simply cannot be moved on 3rd-and-goal from the 1. It's impressive.

It's the only thing about our D that IS impressive, and one of the main reasons I blame our scheme moreso than our players. We're not an overly talented bunch on defense - we're playing a couple of ST guys as starting LBs, a couple of should-be-fired guys as safeties, and our DL don't mesh well - but if we had a scheme that took advantage of what we can do and masked what we can't, it'd work better.

Once we replace the safeties, a good DC could build an average defense out of the rest. If we want to be a great defense, we need to add some great DL. But we could be 15-20 with a good scheme and the exact same players (except adding at least one safety that can cover).

The idea of rebuilding our DL is interesting, but utterly hopeless while we have morons teaching, instructing and scheming for them.

Once we fix the DC problem, and he brings on his own teachers, we might have a shot at getting the talent-additions to work. Having a bunch of talented guys standing around scratching their heads on D isn't a lot better than what we have now.

A bad DC can get a average defense out of great players. A great DC can get a decent defense out of lackluster players and a great D out of great ones.

Right now, I'd settle for just an adequate DC, but it sure would be nice to find a great one. THEN we could add players that fit the scheme, while he makes allowances for having players right now that might not fit.

Bates couldn't do that, which is why he's out of a job. Slowik is just atrocious, and makes me long for the days of Bates.

We're not gonna add 4 quality DL in an offseason who are ready to hop in right away and provide maximum impact. It's just not gonna happen. So we need to work with what might happen.

Scheme change can bring us an impact with fewer personnel additions. I hope we look into it. And this time I hope we consider whether the guy has ever successfully run a defense with average players before, or at all.

~G

G_Money
11-07-2008, 12:23 PM
I was thinking the same thing, Woodyard was absolutely excellent. He played much better than any of our other linebackers. Much better than Nate Webster.

I didn't adopt him for no reason, foo. :salute:

~G

Retired_Member_001
11-07-2008, 12:24 PM
The problem with it being talent is that we don't have an easy fix for that.

Great DL don't normally hit the FA Market. They get franchised, locked in to long-term, very expensive deals by their teams, or become malcontents and problem children who have to be traded with all their accompanying baggage. Sometimes they lose their baggage at their next stop...and sometimes it all comes with em.

If you draft DL, then you normally have to wait a couple of years for the full impact to show. Sedrick Ellis was widely regarded as a great DL. How's he doing in his rookie year? Glen Dorsey?

A top-5 or a top-10 pick doesn't normally come in and treat opposing OL like red-headed stepchildren. Normally it's the other way around. Building a great defensive line out of kids requires a tremendous teacher. Something we don't have. The Steelers have a great, GREAT DL this year, but those guys have been there a while, matured, and isn't their DL coach in his 15th or 18th season or something?

A great teacher with a knowledge of the position and the ability to coach the same scheme since forever. Sounds like what our running game used to be.

We have no defensive continuity. Our DL are sometimes playing a 4-3 (badly) and sometimes a 3-4 (which they don't know how to do either). We have a bunch of castoffs, injured, and young kids playing. They get stout in goal-line situations - Robertson and Thomas simply cannot be moved on 3rd-and-goal from the 1. It's impressive.

It's the only thing about our D that IS impressive, and one of the main reasons I blame our scheme moreso than our players. We're not an overly talented bunch on defense - we're playing a couple of ST guys as starting LBs, a couple of should-be-fired guys as safeties, and our DL don't mesh well - but if we had a scheme that took advantage of what we can do and masked what we can't, it'd work better.

Once we replace the safeties, a good DC could build an average defense out of the rest. If we want to be a great defense, we need to add some great DL. But we could be 15-20 with a good scheme and the exact same players (except adding at least one safety that can cover).

The idea of rebuilding our DL is interesting, but utterly hopeless while we have morons teaching, instructing and scheming for them.

Once we fix the DC problem, and he brings on his own teachers, we might have a shot at getting the talent-additions to work. Having a bunch of talented guys standing around scratching their heads on D isn't a lot better than what we have now.

A bad DC can get a average defense out of great players. A great DC can get a decent defense out of lackluster players and a great D out of great ones.

Right now, I'd settle for just an adequate DC, but it sure would be nice to find a great one. THEN we could add players that fit the scheme, while he makes allowances for having players right now that might not fit.

Bates couldn't do that, which is why he's out of a job. Slowik is just atrocious, and makes me long for the days of Bates.

We're not gonna add 4 quality DL in an offseason who are ready to hop in right away and provide maximum impact. It's just not gonna happen. So we need to work with what might happen.

Scheme change can bring us an impact with fewer personnel additions. I hope we look into it. And this time I hope we consider whether the guy has ever successfully run a defense with average players before, or at all.

~G

G, PLEASE apply to be the Broncos GM.

PLEASE!

broncofaninfla
11-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Funny, we seem to ugrading with injuries. Make me question Slowicks ability to judge talent as well.

broken12
11-07-2008, 12:56 PM
I have to disagree, slowik is the problem although i do like how they decided to use bly no with a safety over top lets him try to undercut passes knowing he has over the top help, but the d line played well they had pressure on quinn all night he was just able to excape and throw to underneath recievers moss played well and ya some overpersued last night do to others not being able to tackle manual especially horrible tackler i really think we have good talent at all levels except safety. the point is i hate slowik scheme if one should call it that, he does put players in position to make plays thats what coordinators are to do ever since day one he has made an excuse to why this and that i am glad we went back to the 4-3 but in my opinion slowik is at fault for this d and needs to go we should go to a tampa 2 its really basic and simple

broncofaninfla
11-07-2008, 01:06 PM
I have to disagree, slowik is the problem although i do like how they decided to use bly no with a safety over top lets him try to undercut passes knowing he has over the top help, but the d line played well they had pressure on quinn all night he was just able to excape and throw to underneath recievers moss played well and ya some overpersued last night do to others not being able to tackle manual especially horrible tackler i really think we have good talent at all levels except safety. the point is i hate slowik scheme if one should call it that, he does put players in position to make plays thats what coordinators are to do ever since day one he has made an excuse to why this and that i am glad we went back to the 4-3 but in my opinion slowik is at fault for this d and needs to go we should go to a tampa 2 its really basic and simple

Our D-line played well last night? When? How many sacks did we have? We let essentially a rookie pick us apart in his first start by giving him plenty of time to throw and didn't even slow runners downs when they ran the ball. This is easily the worst D-line ever fielding by Denver. I agree with you opinion on saftey though, I'd say this is our weakest group there ever as well.

LRtagger
11-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Our D-line played well last night? When? How many sacks did we have? We let essentially a rookie pick us apart in his first start by giving him plenty of time to throw and didn't even slow runners downs when they ran the ball. This is easily the worst D-line ever fielding by Denver. I agree with you opinion on saftey though, I'd say this is our weakest group there ever as well.

I disagree, we had guys in Brady's face all night even with a 4-man rush. Brady just did a good job moving around and dumping the ball off.

Keep in mind that most RBs in the league arent as strong and athletic as Brady, much less QBs. If we can get that kind of pressure on a pure pocket passer, we will be in good shape.

We didnt have any sacks all game, but attribute that to Quinn. We could have and should have had at least 3 or 4 sacks easily. Moss, Ekuban, Doom, and Bly all should have had one sack, but Brady got away from them. Bly was the only would-be sack coming from a blitz.

This D-line is getting better and better every week IMO. Our scheming still sucks, though.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Our D-line played well last night? When? How many sacks did we have? We let essentially a rookie pick us apart in his first start by giving him plenty of time to throw and didn't even slow runners downs when they ran the ball. This is easily the worst D-line ever fielding by Denver. I agree with you opinion on saftey though, I'd say this is our weakest group there ever as well.

Quinn threw 3 passes longer than 10 yards all night. 3. That means they played safe and he didn't have to hold the ball long. Elvis was in his grill regularly and on run plays, our LBs and Ss aren't respected enough for opposing coaches to feel the need to plan for em. That results in more doubling of the DTs. The DLine isn't THE problem. I promise once we have a MLB and a Safety tandem, it will open our DTs up to make more plays.

broncofaninfla
11-07-2008, 01:33 PM
How would you say our D-line played against the run?

SmilinAssasSin27
11-07-2008, 01:37 PM
Honestly...hard to tell. Obviosuly the rushing totals speak for themselves, but in short yardage the DL did great. In open space and longer distances to go, our DTs got doubled and the LBs didn't fill/pursue properly. Partly scheme. Partly talent. IMO seeing how lost the LBs and Ss seemed in pursuit I'd say they were most of the porblem.

G_Money
11-07-2008, 01:54 PM
Quinn threw 3 passes longer than 10 yards all night. 3. That means they played safe and he didn't have to hold the ball long. Elvis was in his grill regularly and on run plays, our LBs and Ss aren't respected enough for opposing coaches to feel the need to plan for em. That results in more doubling of the DTs. The DLine isn't THE problem. I promise once we have a MLB and a Safety tandem, it will open our DTs up to make more plays.

Our DEs got owned in the run game, though. If we're gonna play tiny guys on the edges then our LBs HAVE to get there faster to help with contain. We got avalanched on runs to the sideline. The only times we stopped that were on plays made by LBs (like Woodyard stuffing Lewis on a great individual play). If the LB was out of position or caught up in trash (I'm looking at YOU Winborn) then it was a long gain before the late arrival got there to make the play.

We're gonna need faster, meaner, more instinctual LBs to make up for small DEs who can't hold the edge. Or new DEs.

And I'm still wondering how to get both DJ and Woodyard on the field at the same time.

We have a lot of disparate parts to figure out with the rest of this year and the offseason.

We have corners who can play aggressively but a DL that doesn't get pressure.

We have DEs who are small and theoretically might be able to rush the passer but opposing teams are completing the highest percentage of passes against us in the history of the league.

Our DTs seem to be good against the run in short-yardage but are terrible at collapsing a pocket to help the DEs, just as the DEs are terrible at holding the edge in the run game and turning the play back inside to the LBs.

Our LBs are really fast, and yet never on time to fill gaps in the DL during runs, nor to cover backs or TEs on passes. They also overpursue or get owned by any blockers that free up to crush their smaller selves, and our two with the most potential play the same position (weak-side).

We don't have any safeties. :rolleyes:

Just a weird, weird set-up. Bly CAN play. He showed it again last night. He just can't play with the sort of cushions and time that he has to play with in this scheme. Champ can DEFINITELY play but even he looks average with this scheme that never forces a QB to throw one his way.

We don't actually blitz, or if we do it's one guy who is normally picked up immediately. Mostly we line up 7 or 8 guys at the line of scrimmage and then get ourselves out of position for the actual play while we only rush 3-4.

We don't run blitz.

We use run-stopping safeties as cover safeties. We use Paymah, who might be somewhat decent in a Brandon-like cover safety position - as a cover corner with a huge cushion. We don't play bigger guys on the ends on first down to help stop the run. We rarely stunt. We suck at zone blitzing.

It's just strange to watch. :confused:

I think Champ and Bly can be a good corner tandem, but I would trade one to free up cash (preferrably Bly). But we apparently don't trust JMFW to play, because we used Paymah and now Bell, the OTHER rookie, to fill Champ's spot. When a guy from Baylor's "vaunted" D is starting over you and you're both rookies, you might not have the faith of the coaching staff. Or you're really injured. I don't think Jack is injured...though Bell played aggressively and decently last night.

DJ and Woodyard can stay, but the rest of the backers need to be backups or gone. Even Boss. Maybe especially Boss. Can Woodyard play the Sam? He's never done it before that I know of, but we might need to find out, since I don't think DJ is moving back there.

And our DL...God, who can say? I like Thomas vs the rush okay but he's invisible against the pass, and that was supposed to be his area of impact - an up-the-field DT who could help collapse a pocket. Nothing in that area so far. Robertson is also good via the run in short spaces, but his knee will obviously limit him from here out in his career.

Moss has been looking better as a pash rusher, but at least ONE of our ends needs to be able to hold an edge, and neither he nor Doom can do it. Our rotational DL do basically nothing more than give the starters some time off on those 15-play drives the opposition likes to put us through.

It's a Frankenstein mix of players with a zombie-corpse scheme. Still, I have trouble believing that only DJ and Champ can play. I think several of them could be contributors to our next Championship team in some capacity...but with us they're next to useless. I don't know how the next guy is gonna fix it, or who he'll decide to keep, but there has to BE a next guy. We can't keep going this way, with different schemes and emphasis every week.

It's gonna destroy whatever young talent we might actually have on defense, and make it impossible to sign FA talent for anything resembling market price, while also making the vets like Champ start looking for trades.

Gotta put a stop to that.

~G

broken12
11-07-2008, 06:15 PM
have to disagree again dumerville and moss played really well against the run when they were run at they strung the plays out for the lb to make a play hence woodyard there were many times the d line held there positions but the linebackers are who need to make the play on the runner so many times they running back broken the first contact to get to the second level niko just plain wiffed a couple of times i remember thats what hurts the linebackers cant hold up theyre part i rally liked green at middle over niko hope he gets more time

bcbronc
11-07-2008, 06:55 PM
I only see 5-8 players on our roster who are worth keeping around on defence. obviously we aren't going to turn them over in one off-season, but we better start soon.

Champ and DJ are obvious. doom, D'Rob and Thomas are okay as well. then you've got guys like Bly, Paymah, and Ekuban who are solid but are being asked to do too much (especially the corners).

we've been running this coverage with the corners 10 yards back and shading outside for at least 2 seasons now. at least Marshall recognized it doesn't work. hopefully the coaches catch on soon.

while scheme is important, and a good scheme can cover up average players, when you have a unit that gives up 8-40 yards on RB vs MLB, S, S it doesn't matter what you do for a scheme. Look at Winslows 2nd TD: good call on the coverage, had a man right there to make the play for a short gain. big deal if the defender doesn't make the play.

get a new coordinator and coaching staff, sure fine. but lets get it right this time. 4 DCs in 4 years is not the way to be competitive. But more importantly, get a MLB and Ss that can actually come up and make plays.

when DJ gets back, I'm all for moving him back into the middle to keep Woodyard on the field. not sure how DJ would feel about it, but I don't see Woodyard fitting anywhere else and we need to be able to get our best defenders on the field. all our other backers suck, other than STs.