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nevcraw
07-09-2011, 09:55 PM
Beaten out by noneother than the Dan Fouts. this is a crime.. :elefant:

I can give you Montana, make a slight argument for Marino -- but Fouts!!!

time for some black maple hill Bourbon to wash down this bile..

FanInAZ
07-09-2011, 10:43 PM
1) I'm convinced that the NFLN creates these ranking lists by people who compile these list believe that controversy gets better rating. Therefore, they are deliberately coming up with these kinds of "assessments" just to get people riled up. However, it’s back fired with me. As much as I enjoy watching documentaries, including those on the subject of football, I don't have any desire to watch any of their ranking shows. The only alternative explanation that I can come up with is that their just pulling names out of a hat.

2) Dan Fouts was when of the league’s best QBs, in the '70s. After '82, neither he nor the Chargers did anything.

BroncoStud
07-09-2011, 11:45 PM
Dan Fouts my ass. Even Dan Marino my ass. Elway is arguably the greatest QB of ALL-TIME, let alone of the 80's, when he essentially willed the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls. What a joke.

nevcraw
07-09-2011, 11:47 PM
Dan Fouts my ass. Even Dan Marino my ass. Elway is arguably the greatest QB of ALL-TIME, let alone of the 80's, when he essentially willed the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls. What a joke.

totally agree

sneakers
07-10-2011, 01:48 AM
Fouts did have excellent facial hair.

claymore
07-10-2011, 01:56 AM
Im sure from a pure passer/statistical standpoint they have a valid argument. But Elway was a baller.

HammeredOut
07-10-2011, 09:00 AM
Dan Fouts my ass. Even Dan Marino my ass. Elway is arguably the greatest QB of ALL-TIME, let alone of the 80's, when he essentially willed the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls. What a joke.

Ive been a Broncos fan all my life, and I can tell you one thing, I would not go out on a limb to call Elway the GOAT. The biggest knock on Elway was, the fact when he got to the superbowl, his stats were horrible with 4TDs, and 9 INts. Those stats came from 5 total games. At that rate, if it was the regular season, Elway would finish off the season with 16TDs, and 36INts. So if it wasn't for such bad stats in the Superbowl, and mostly subpar play, alot of people would have Elway higher on there lists of All time greats. The first Superbowl we won with Elway, the Broncos were 2 TD underdogs to Farve, because the Vegas line had Elway labelled as "Choke Master", and if anybody laid a little coin down, they would have brought back 5-1 odds on that first superbowl win.

In the 80s Broncos fans were so hardcore, we were voting Elway into the Pro-Bowl with more interc eptions, then TD's thrown in a season. From a QB perspective, it wasn't until Elway was in his 30s when he actually started having great seasons by statistics.

In alot of ways I would compare Elway to Rothlisburger, because both had stout defenses, and top 10 defenses when they went into the playoffs, and both Roth and Elway could extend the play, for the big play. The difference is Elway played with a HOF TE and lineman, and future HOF WR, LB, DE, possibly RB.

My list is the following for greatest QBs.

Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Payton Manning, Brett Farve, Tom Brady, John Unitas, Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Warren Moon, Troy Aikman

GEM
07-10-2011, 09:07 AM
Here we go again with the Bradshaw horse manure.

BroncoJoe
07-10-2011, 09:40 AM
Ive been a Broncos fan all my life, and I can tell you one thing, I would not go out on a limb to call Elway the GOAT.

One statement does not match the other.

chazoe60
07-10-2011, 10:05 AM
Can a poster be banned for stupidity? Not asking about any poster specifically, just thought I'd ask this totally random question in this thread because that's how I roll.

Lonestar
07-10-2011, 10:13 AM
Here we go again with the Bradshaw horse manure.

Yep that guy is dumber than a rock.

And Bradshaw was up to his hips in talent. Half of his team is now in the HOF. While some do not deserve to be there many do more so than talent that surrounded John in those early years not to mention coaching. Dano was no chuck noll.

Lonestar
07-10-2011, 11:38 AM
Joe Montana one if the greatest scheme QBs ever
Dan Marino truly a great one
Payton Manning mybe the best all time pure oc\qb that ever played
Brett Farve gunslinger supreme
Tom Brady yes a great one
John Unitas ahead of his time
Terry Bradshaw surrounded by hof takent that eleveated his game dunber than a rock
John Elway one ic the GOAT
Warren Moon never impressed me.
Troy Aikman just another Bradshaw.

Lonestar
07-10-2011, 11:42 AM
Can a poster be banned for stupidity? Not asking about any poster specifically, just thought I'd ask this totally random question in this thread because that's how I roll.

That is way to subjective. Should some be IMHO yes.
But the forum policy has always been a free exchange of ideas no matter how dumb.

Being rude, abusesive yes and while it may seem like stupid posts are indeed abusive to the ears and minds of others still not a reason for banishment.

GEM
07-10-2011, 11:49 AM
So let of get this right. Hammered says that Elway was not amy good until he had a top defense around him and that is a knock on him, but Bradshaw who is the king of a team carrying him is on the top ten list. ha ha

Lonestar
07-10-2011, 12:05 PM
So let of get this right. Hammered says that Elway was not amy good until he had a top defense around him and that is a knock on him, but Bradshaw who is the king of a team carrying him is on the top ten list. ha ha

Go figure.

Magnificent Seven
07-10-2011, 03:15 PM
My top five:

1. Joe Monatana

2. John Elway

3. Dan Marino

4. Warren Moon

5. Randall Cunningham

nevcraw
07-10-2011, 04:11 PM
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Marino
4. Moon
5. Sims

broncoFan!
07-10-2011, 05:58 PM
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Marino
4. Moon
5. Cunningham

Canmore
07-10-2011, 06:07 PM
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Marino
4. Moon
5. Cunningham

What would Moon's career have looked like if he hadn't played six seasons in the CFL?

broncoFan!
07-10-2011, 06:12 PM
What would Moon's career have looked like if he hadn't played six seasons in the CFL?

It wouldn't have been half the career it was to be true.

Npba900
07-10-2011, 06:23 PM
Beaten out by noneother than the Dan Fouts. this is a crime.. :elefant:

I can give you Montana, make a slight argument for Marino -- but Fouts!!!

time for some black maple hill Bourbon to wash down this bile..

Agreed! Fouts only had 4 seasons of oustanding statistics. The remainder of his 10 seasons were sub-par seasons.

HammeredOut
07-10-2011, 06:31 PM
So let of get this right. Hammered says that Elway was not amy good until he had a top defense around him and that is a knock on him, but Bradshaw who is the king of a team carrying him is on the top ten list. ha ha

Bradshaw was a big time gamer. period. in the big games when it mattered. 4 superbowl wins speak for themselves. Bradford was more then a 2:1 TD to INT ratio in Superbowls. Elway threw 2 ints for every TD in superbowls. So it would make sense we were always playing from behind. If it wasn't for the Defense making the huge stop on 4 and out, we wouldn't be having this conversation about atleast 1 superbowl win we had.

The difference between myself and other Broncos fans, is I give recognition to all the players across the league, i don't just flip on my broncos blinders, and say a player is greatest because he was a Bronco. If I did that, I would have been out of sports betting over 20 years ago.

Some will cherry pick the stats and say well Bradshaw wasn't good in the regular season, and then say his defense won him his superbowls. Everybody discounts the fact Bradshaw threw a ton of TD's in the Superbowls, infact more then double what John Elway did in superbowls, and it was the Broncos defense who won those superbowls, and kept the team in the game. 123 yards in the air and 2INts, to get our first Superbowl win with Elway.

check out profootballreference.com read, and compare the statistics for yourself.

So if your wondering why I had Bradshaw ahead of Elway on my list. Thats why. If you have the extra time, like a ton of hardcore posters, then look at stats year by year, the broncos made the playoffs, and check out how the defense ranked year in and year out. Statistics don't lie.

chazoe60
07-10-2011, 06:37 PM
Anyone who says statistics don't lie is full of shit BTW.

BroncoJoe
07-10-2011, 06:40 PM
While I would agree Bradshaw is pretty underrated, he's not in the Montana/Elway/Marino conversations.

BroncoStud
07-10-2011, 07:16 PM
Ive been a Broncos fan all my life, and I can tell you one thing, I would not go out on a limb to call Elway the GOAT. The biggest knock on Elway was, the fact when he got to the superbowl, his stats were horrible with 4TDs, and 9 INts. Those stats came from 5 total games. At that rate, if it was the regular season, Elway would finish off the season with 16TDs, and 36INts. So if it wasn't for such bad stats in the Superbowl, and mostly subpar play, alot of people would have Elway higher on there lists of All time greats. The first Superbowl we won with Elway, the Broncos were 2 TD underdogs to Farve, because the Vegas line had Elway labelled as "Choke Master", and if anybody laid a little coin down, they would have brought back 5-1 odds on that first superbowl win.

In the 80s Broncos fans were so hardcore, we were voting Elway into the Pro-Bowl with more interc eptions, then TD's thrown in a season. From a QB perspective, it wasn't until Elway was in his 30s when he actually started having great seasons by statistics.

In alot of ways I would compare Elway to Rothlisburger, because both had stout defenses, and top 10 defenses when they went into the playoffs, and both Roth and Elway could extend the play, for the big play. The difference is Elway played with a HOF TE and lineman, and future HOF WR, LB, DE, possibly RB.

My list is the following for greatest QBs.

Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Payton Manning, Brett Farve, Tom Brady, John Unitas, Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Warren Moon, Troy Aikman

Warren Moon, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman... Are you f'ing kidding me? I personally put Steve Young well ahead of any of them.

Your post ranks as one of the worst I've read in a long time, congrats.

nevcraw
07-10-2011, 10:07 PM
Anyone who says statistics don't lie is full of shit BTW.

umm. elway's stats were just ok.. but he did come in first in wins...

me thinks tebow wil be like elway's. shitty stats but makes it happen. that's all i can hope for.

Canmore
07-10-2011, 10:25 PM
umm. elway's stats were just ok.. but he did come in first in wins...

me thinks tebow wil be like elway's. shitty stats but makes it happen. that's all i can hope for.

To be fair there is a night and day difference between John's stats under Dan Reeves and his stats under Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan.

nevcraw
07-10-2011, 10:51 PM
To be fair there is a night and day difference between John's stats under Dan Reeves and his stats under Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan.

agreed but point is elway was gamer.. leg arm and everything in between..

Canmore
07-10-2011, 10:56 PM
agreed but point is elway was gamer.. leg arm and everything in between..

Agreed. Elway was a winner, something we are all hoping Tebow is at this level. :defense:

Lonestar
07-10-2011, 11:44 PM
To be fair there is a night and day difference between John's stats under Dan Reeves and his stats under Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan.

I have always thought that had dano gave him his head and allowed him to pass more than on 3rd and long. HE would have held many of Marinos records.

I can see why there was less than love between the two of them Why mikey had to be the go between.

he was a special QB, lets hope he is a very special GM and VP

Canmore
07-11-2011, 12:01 AM
I have always thought that had dano gave him his head and allowed him to pass more than on 3rd and long. HE would have held many of Marinos records.

I can see why there was less than love between the two of them Why mikey had to be the go between.

he was a special QB, lets hope he is a very special GM and VP

Yes. I feel much the same way. Had Elway had an offense tailored to him I'm sure he would have been there right in the record book with Marino. Still we went to three Super Bowls with Dan and John. Yes we got blown out but...

Here's hoping the magic stays with Elway. :beer:

Ravage!!!
07-11-2011, 12:01 AM
Cunningham? Its odd to see Cunningham make anyone's list. But, hey, I guess thats why we make lists.

Canmore
07-11-2011, 12:11 AM
Cunningham? Its odd to see Cunningham make anyone's list. But, hey, I guess thats why we make lists.

I've thought the same thing, but hey...

FanInAZ
07-11-2011, 12:24 AM
To be fair there is a night and day difference between John's stats under Dan Reeves and his stats under Wade Phillips and Mike Shanahan.

I can give you 3 reasons for this; the 1st 2 have to do with Reeves being stuck in the past.

1) Reeves insisted that the only way to win in football was to use the run to set up the pass. The problem was, Sammy Winder was a mediocre RB at best. Because of this, Elway was constantly faced with 3rd and long situations.

2) Reeves didn't want Elway to be Elway. He wanted Elway to be a "sitting duck" QB that stayed in the pocket instead of maximizing his mobility.

3) Reeves never surrounded Elway with quality talent on offence, especially on the O line.

Canmore
07-11-2011, 12:34 AM
I can give you 3 reasons for this; the 1st 2 have to do with Reeves being stuck in the past.

1) Reeves insisted that the only way to win in football was to use the run to set up the pass. The problem was, Sammy Winder was a mediocre RB at best. Because of this, Elway was constantly faced with 3rd and long situations.

2) Reeves didn't want Elway to be Elway. He wanted Elway to be a "sitting duck" QB that stayed in the pocket instead of maximizing his mobility.

3) Reeves never surrounded Elway with quality talent on offence, especially on the O line.

You will get no argument from me. Sammy Winder as John's go to runningback...

HammeredOut
07-11-2011, 11:04 AM
Warren Moon, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman... Are you f'ing kidding me? I personally put Steve Young well ahead of any of them.

Your post ranks as one of the worst I've read in a long time, congrats.

Steve Young only had about 7 good seasons in his entire career. So based on that, his half career of production in a short span, i would disagree with you and say Steve Young should be on this list. The 7 seasons i am talking about is are the 3000 yards plus in the air to basically Jerry Rice, along with his yards on the ground. If I was to have Steve Young on that list, some might debate that Mike Vick would be one notch ahead of him.

Troy Aikman won 3 superbowls in 4 seasons. Warren Moon would have broke almost every passing record not he played 6 seasons in the CFL. Bradshaw won 4 superbowls. A few players on that Bradshaw team do not belong anywhere near the HOF, but leave that to the voters. I put Bradshaw in, because of his Superbowl stats, and what his overall stats are in Superbowls.

NightTerror218
07-11-2011, 11:56 AM
wow.....i was reading articles on ESPN about top QBs of all time and Elway was in the top 5 of them. They were debating whether Brady should be in the top 5 or not. I would have to have Elway no further back then #3 all time. Dan Fouts WTF. Who made the the list, Dan Fouts and Warren Sapp?

BroncoStud
07-11-2011, 12:21 PM
Steve Young only had about 7 good seasons in his entire career. So based on that, his half career of production in a short span, i would disagree with you and say Steve Young should be on this list. The 7 seasons i am talking about is are the 3000 yards plus in the air to basically Jerry Rice, along with his yards on the ground. If I was to have Steve Young on that list, some might debate that Mike Vick would be one notch ahead of him.

Troy Aikman won 3 superbowls in 4 seasons. Warren Moon would have broke almost every passing record not he played 6 seasons in the CFL. Bradshaw won 4 superbowls. A few players on that Bradshaw team do not belong anywhere near the HOF, but leave that to the voters. I put Bradshaw in, because of his Superbowl stats, and what his overall stats are in Superbowls.

So because Bradshaw and Aikman, ON STACKED TEAMS, won multiple Super Bowls they deserve to be considered all-time greats...?

Ask yourself this... If Aikman and Bradshaw quaterbacked the Broncos teams in the 1980s, do the Broncos even SNIFF the postseason let alone 3 Super Bowls? Nope, and not even close.

Hell, Archie Manning carried teams better than Aikman or Bradshaw. Don't get me wrong, Aikman was a very good passer but he isn't John Elway or Dan Marino. Bradshaw simply had the luxury of playing for one of the greatest dynasties in NFL history, well, actually Aikman did as well.

You would be hard=pressed to find a QB that could carry a team like John Elway did. You go back and compare, player by player, Elway's teams to ANY QB on your list, then try and justify your stance.

Warren Moon was a great passer, but he was only a GOOD QB. In 7 seasons, after backing up Joe freaking Montana, Steve Young proved to be one of the all-time greats. Imagine if he had a full career to draw comparisons from.

In my opinion the 3 greatest QBs of all-time are Montana/Elway and then Steve Young. I know a lot of people disagree with Young but he was an amazing combination of accuracy, mobility, intelligence, and leadership.

SOCALORADO.
07-11-2011, 12:31 PM
Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history at the time of his retirement. It’s the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven’s Ninth on a kazoo.
But Elway’s career has been about more than just winning. It has been about escaping defeat a half page from the end of the novel, leaping over pits of fire with the microdot hidden in his cigarette lighter. On first down Elway was ‘pretty average,’ his Stanford coach Paul Wiggin once said. But when the elementary school kids are being held hostage and the detonator reads 00:03, who would you rather have clipping the wires than Elway? He may be the only quarterback in history who could stand on his own two-yard line, trailing by five with less than two minutes to play, no timeouts left, windchill –5, and cause the opposing coach to mutter, ‘We’re in trouble.’”
--Rick Reilly, Sports Illustrated, qtd. in Austin Murphy’s The Super Bowl: Sports Greatest Championship


I don't think there are 10 who can play the game the way it's set up to be played. There's Brett Favre and Steve Young, obviously, and Elway and Dan Marino. Elway and Marino make an interesting pair; they sort of belong together. They were both number one draft picks in the same year, and they've both been great for a long time.
Now, I don't think Elway needed to win those two Super Bowls to prove that he's a great quarterback, but the fact is, now he can say he's done everything there is to do in the game. He's done it all.
Dan Marino's what I call a 'Yeah, but . . .' guy. As great as he is and as great as he's been, people will always say, 'Yeah, but he never won a Super Bowl.' I think Marino's going to have to live with that for a long time.
People used to talk about all the Super Bowls Elway lost. Well, I called a few of those games, and what people seem to forget is that those teams weren't that good. John Elway was the sole reason why those Bronco teams were playing in the Super Bowl. He was the closest thing to a one-man gang I've ever seen. Elway absolutely thrived under pressure. When you got down to the end of the game and his team was behind, he knew what to do. He was one of the few quarterbacks to play the game who really knew the game. He knew what to do, how to move the ball, how to save time. And he relished those decisions.
A lot of people say they want the ball to take the last shot, but there's not a lot of them who really want it.

John Elway wanted the ball."--John Madden



Elway is 1 of 2 professional athletes that played team sports in the modern era, that literally took a clearly inferior team, put it on his back and walked, crawled and trudged the team to the highest level of that players respective sport. In Johns case, the Super Bowl. And he did 3 times by himself! Literally!
Wilt Chamberlian early in his career was the other.
No one, NO ONE has done it since.

chazoe60
07-11-2011, 12:56 PM
HO is the only PERSON, let alone supposed Bronco fan, who would put Bradshaw ahead of Elway. Come on HO, you look really stupid trying to argue this shit.


Every village needs its idiot.

Npba900
07-11-2011, 03:28 PM
Dan Fouts my ass. Even Dan Marino my ass. Elway is arguably the greatest QB of ALL-TIME, let alone of the 80's, when he essentially willed the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls. What a joke.

Great points. Elway has never gotten credit for his durability and toughness either. Elway set the record for having endured the most sacks in NFL history at over 525 sacks in 16 years!!! Let me repeat.....525 sacks.

Now imagine Montana and Marino enduring over 500 sacks.....neither would have enjoyed a 16 year career. They're careers would have ended 6 years earlier.

Montana benefitted from playing on teams with talent on both sides of the ball. Now Montana had a chance to lead the talent devoided KC to the SB and failed to do so. Whereas Elway took teams with the same talent Montana had with the Chiefs to 3 SB's.

Hell, how many of those 3 teams Elway led to the SB even had offensive skilled players even making the Pro Bowl!!! No doubt about it.......Elway was an amazing talent.

Had Elway only suffered 200-250 sacks over a 16 year period, Elway could have play into his 40's! Because his body would not have been beaten down as it was for having endured over 500 sacks. Imagine Elway playing an additional 4 past 1998, TD and Rod Smith would have been shoe-ins for Canton and Shanahan and the Broncos would have had 2 or 3 more SB rings.

Elway also took additional risk and punishment by rushing for 33 TDs and rusing for over 3,300 yards. Marion, Montana, and Fouts just can't compare to Elway.....plain and simple.

Elway is the only player to throw for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 200 yards in seven straight seasons (1985–1991). Elway is one of only four quarterbacks to pass for at least 3,000 yards in 12 seasons; Favre, Marino and Manning are the others. Marino and Montana's names are not in this category.

These are simply amazing feats especially when you consider Elway played the majority of his career when QB's did not have the protections we see today.

Here's a little caveat-little known history. Al Davis was trying to position the Raiders to move up and draft Elway No.1, and would have probably pulled it off if he hadn't pissed of the NFL by moving the Raiders down to LA back in the early 80's. Imagine had Elway played for those early 80's Raiders teams.....history sure would have been different in the NFL.

GEM
07-11-2011, 03:35 PM
wow.....i was reading articles on ESPN about top QBs of all time and Elway was in the top 5 of them. They were debating whether Brady should be in the top 5 or not. I would have to have Elway no further back then #3 all time. Dan Fouts WTF. Who made the the list, Dan Fouts and Warren Sapp?

Dan Fouts is the perfect Sparkler. Best ever to not do a damn thing. He is the perfect emblem for that franchise. He does have Orton beat in the neckbeard category though. :D

Lonestar
07-11-2011, 05:55 PM
Steve Young only had about 7 good seasons in his entire career. So based on that, his half career of production in a short span, i would disagree with you and say Steve Young should be on this list. The 7 seasons i am talking about is are the 3000 yards plus in the air to basically Jerry Rice, along with his yards on the ground. If I was to have Steve Young on that list, some might debate that Mike Vick would be one notch ahead of him.

Troy Aikman won 3 superbowls in 4 seasons. Warren Moon would have broke almost every passing record not he played 6 seasons in the CFL. Bradshaw won 4 superbowls. A few players on that Bradshaw team do not belong anywhere near the HOF, but leave that to the voters. I put Bradshaw in, because of his Superbowl stats, and what his overall stats are in Superbowls.


hell Orton could have won that many super bowls with all the talent aikman was surrounded with .

for that matter maybe even dilfer..

GEM
07-11-2011, 06:02 PM
hell Orton could have won that many super bowls with all the talent aikman was surrounded with .

for that matter maybe even dilfer..

Talented surrounding cast only counts if it is used against Elway. In all other cases, it doesn't matter who was on the team, they didn't deserve to be in the HOF and they didn't make the qb better. At least according to hammered. :lol:

BroncoJoe
07-11-2011, 06:12 PM
Damn you NPBA. I hate saluting you.

:D

HammeredOut
07-12-2011, 09:45 AM
So because Bradshaw and Aikman, ON STACKED TEAMS, won multiple Super Bowls they deserve to be considered all-time greats...?

Ask yourself this... If Aikman and Bradshaw quaterbacked the Broncos teams in the 1980s, do the Broncos even SNIFF the postseason let alone 3 Super Bowls? Nope, and not even close.

Hell, Archie Manning carried teams better than Aikman or Bradshaw. Don't get me wrong, Aikman was a very good passer but he isn't John Elway or Dan Marino. Bradshaw simply had the luxury of playing for one of the greatest dynasties in NFL history, well, actually Aikman did as well.

You would be hard=pressed to find a QB that could carry a team like John Elway did. You go back and compare, player by player, Elway's teams to ANY QB on your list, then try and justify your stance.

Warren Moon was a great passer, but he was only a GOOD QB. In 7 seasons, after backing up Joe freaking Montana, Steve Young proved to be one of the all-time greats. Imagine if he had a full career to draw comparisons from.

In my opinion the 3 greatest QBs of all-time are Montana/Elway and then Steve Young. I know a lot of people disagree with Young but he was an amazing combination of accuracy, mobility, intelligence, and leadership.

Every Superbowl team that won was stacked. Look at when we won our first SB with Elway, he had a 2000 yard back, HOF TE, and OLineman. Essentially, Elway had a bunch of HOF and future HOF's on the team. Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, Zimms, Steve Atwater, possibly Bill Romonowski.

Between Romanowski, Atwater, Aldridge, Crockett (15.5 Sacks, 36Ints), Tyrone Braxton (16 Bronco INts) nothing was getting by this defense. Most never give them the credit they deserve.

Alot of fans forget about Steve Watson and how good he was as a number 1 target. He averaged a 1000 yards his first 3 seasons (1133,1170,915) with Elway coming out as a rookie. A 6'4 target, the 19 TDs he accounted for was about 40% of Elways TDs his first 3 seasons. So I would disagree with a lot of people that Elway never had a go-to guy. Even though Vance Johnson, and Mark Jackson never cracked the 1000 yard mark, they hit 800-900 yard mark every year, and the offense always did it by committee. Even Sammy Winder notched up 2 probowls. What killed us back then was all of the Interceptions. I just remember watching those Superbowls, and everybody saying.. No not again, after Elway threw another pick. If it wasn't for Rulan Jones, and Mecklinburg stuffing the run, and rushing the passer so well, the Broncos wouldn't have made so deep into the playoffs.

The question you have to ask yourself, is, in the big game (SB), who would you want as QB. Guys like "Aikman, Bradshaw" who threw a 2:1 TD ratios, and never cracked in the big game. Or our guy who took his 4th try to win the big game.

Aikman's passing accuracy was 65%, 69%, and 64% leading those teams into the superbowl Aikman is one of the most accurate passers ever to play the game. This is the main reason why Aikman won 3 superbowls in 4 years. Everybody knew that when the ball came out of Aikman's hands, that it was going to get caught. Aikman in a lot of ways reminds me of Drew Brees today. Accuracy, and precision.

You should reconsider having Steve Young behind Elway. Steve Young has less completions then Brad Johnson in his career. Half of that 49s team will be in the HOF someday aswell.

As for Dan Fouts being number 3. I said WTF aswell. But when you look at his stats in the 80's he managed to throw for over 9500 yards in 2 seasons. That was equal to about 3 full Elway seasons. The flipside was Fouts only played 3/4 the 80s. If i did that list, I would have had Elway ahead of Fouts, but I would have considered Dave Krieg ahead of Dan Fouts. Krieg to Largent was a huge part of the 80's, along with 160+ Tds thrown in that decade.

OaklandRaider
07-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Dan Fouts my ass. Even Dan Marino my ass. Elway is arguably the greatest QB of ALL-TIME, let alone of the 80's, when he essentially willed the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls. What a joke.

Not trying to be a troll, but this is a laughable statement. There is literally no argument you could make for John Elway being the best QB of all time. None.

John Elway is barely top ten IMO.

I always laugh when people use the "Elway carried those 80 teams to three super bowls by himself!" card........who cares? Nobody remembers second place. When John Elway played in those three superbowl in the 80's, his team got blown out every single time. He was apart of some of the worst blowouts in SB history. His stats in those three superbowls are terrible for ANY QB, let alone a guy who you claim was arguably the best to every play the game.


A telling stat I recently came across: John Elway never had a passer rating that ranked top ten in the NFL until 1993 - which was his tenth year in the league. He never in his entire career had a season for which he threw under ten interceptions. Had only 3 seasons in his entire career in which he completed 60 percent of his passes. His one MVP trophy that he did win in 1987 is kind of tainted, because it came in a year in which they only played 12 games. And Jerry Rice easily deserved it that year over Elway - that was the year Rice had 22 touchdowns in 12 games! But yet Elway ended up getting the MVP and he threw only 19 TDs that year.....:rolleyes:


I realize it was a different era when Elway played, but those are some pretty mediocre stats.

Just stating my opinion:D

Denver Native (Carol)
07-12-2011, 11:06 AM
#7's stats when he retired:

51,475 Passing yards
Super Bowl XXXIII MVP
47 Game Saving Drives
148 Games Won
Selected to 9 Pro Bowls
50+ Bronco Records
Back to Back Super Bowl Victories
ONLY QB to pass for 3,000 yds and rush for 200 yds in 7 straight seasons (1985-1991)

Ravage!!!
07-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Passer rating? Passer rating was invented to give the fans something to look at. ITs the DUMBEST thing EVER to use to compare players. The formula alone, is based off 1970 'averages' ... no wonder every year the "QB ratings" of the current QBs go up. I bet if the 2011 QB rating formula used the 2010 averages...QB ratings would start shrinking dramatically. Every year, the QB rating formula should use the prior year's "average" numbers instead of numbers that are literally 40 years old.

I can't believe anyone would use the QBR as some kind of measuring stick to determine how good a player is.

GEM
07-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Every Superbowl team that won was stacked. Look at when we won our first SB with Elway, he had a 2000 yard back, HOF TE, and OLineman. Essentially, Elway had a bunch of HOF and future HOF's on the team. Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, Zimms, Steve Atwater, possibly Bill Romonowski.

Between Romanowski, Atwater, Aldridge, Crockett (15.5 Sacks, 36Ints), Tyrone Braxton (16 Bronco INts) nothing was getting by this defense. Most never give them the credit they deserve.

Alot of fans forget about Steve Watson and how good he was as a number 1 target. He averaged a 1000 yards his first 3 seasons (1133,1170,915) with Elway coming out as a rookie. A 6'4 target, the 19 TDs he accounted for was about 40% of Elways TDs his first 3 seasons. So I would disagree with a lot of people that Elway never had a go-to guy. Even though Vance Johnson, and Mark Jackson never cracked the 1000 yard mark, they hit 800-900 yard mark every year, and the offense always did it by committee. Even Sammy Winder notched up 2 probowls. What killed us back then was all of the Interceptions. I just remember watching those Superbowls, and everybody saying.. No not again, after Elway threw another pick. If it wasn't for Rulan Jones, and Mecklinburg stuffing the run, and rushing the passer so well, the Broncos wouldn't have made so deep into the playoffs.

The question you have to ask yourself, is, in the big game (SB), who would you want as QB. Guys like "Aikman, Bradshaw" who threw a 2:1 TD ratios, and never cracked in the big game. Or our guy who took his 4th try to win the big game.

Aikman's passing accuracy was 65%, 69%, and 64% leading those teams into the superbowl Aikman is one of the most accurate passers ever to play the game. This is the main reason why Aikman won 3 superbowls in 4 years. Everybody knew that when the ball came out of Aikman's hands, that it was going to get caught. Aikman in a lot of ways reminds me of Drew Brees today. Accuracy, and precision.

You should reconsider having Steve Young behind Elway. Steve Young has less completions then Brad Johnson in his career. Half of that 49s team will be in the HOF someday aswell.

As for Dan Fouts being number 3. I said WTF aswell. But when you look at his stats in the 80's he managed to throw for over 9500 yards in 2 seasons. That was equal to about 3 full Elway seasons. The flipside was Fouts only played 3/4 the 80s. If i did that list, I would have had Elway ahead of Fouts, but I would have considered Dave Krieg ahead of Dan Fouts. Krieg to Largent was a huge part of the 80's, along with 160+ Tds thrown in that decade.

Now look at the 2 seasons we won the SB and look at the 3 we lost. Are you going to tell me that the 3 we lost were stacked teams? Stacked like Aikmans' and Bradshaws' teams?

:lol:

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 11:48 AM
#7's stats when he retired:

51,475 Passing yards
Super Bowl XXXIII MVP
47 Game Saving Drives
148 Games Won
Selected to 9 Pro Bowls
50+ Bronco Records
Back to Back Super Bowl Victories
ONLY QB to pass for 3,000 yds and rush for 200 yds in 7 straight seasons (1985-1991)

If Tebow becomes the teams starting QB, I think he could get close to the last one, if he can break 3,000 yards, cause he will get over 200 rushing.

TXBRONC
07-12-2011, 11:52 AM
My top five:

1. Joe Monatana

2. John Elway

3. Dan Marino

4. Warren Moon

5. Randall Cunningham

I would put Kelly in the top five before I would put Cunningham.

BroncoStud
07-12-2011, 12:16 PM
Not trying to be a troll, but this is a laughable statement. There is literally no argument you could make for John Elway being the best QB of all time. None.

John Elway is barely top ten IMO.

I always laugh when people use the "Elway carried those 80 teams to three super bowls by himself!" card........who cares? Nobody remembers second place. When John Elway played in those three superbowl in the 80's, his team got blown out every single time. He was apart of some of the worst blowouts in SB history. His stats in those three superbowls are terrible for ANY QB, let alone a guy who you claim was arguably the best to every play the game.


A telling stat I recently came across: John Elway never had a passer rating that ranked top ten in the NFL until 1993 - which was his tenth year in the league. He never in his entire career had a season for which he threw under ten interceptions. Had only 3 seasons in his entire career in which he completed 60 percent of his passes. His one MVP trophy that he did win in 1987 is kind of tainted, because it came in a year in which they only played 12 games. And Jerry Rice easily deserved it that year over Elway - that was the year Rice had 22 touchdowns in 12 games! But yet Elway ended up getting the MVP and he threw only 19 TDs that year.....:rolleyes:


I realize it was a different era when Elway played, but those are some pretty mediocre stats.

Just stating my opinion:D

Absolute nonsense... Your post is more tainted with envy than any trophy Elway was mistakenly given by the NFL.

You can take all the stats you want and blow them up your ass. Once Elway got into a west coast-style offense under Shanahan, his stats exploded and he put up great numbers. Rich Gannon had the luxury of playing in a system designed for the QB to put up great numbers making easy throws and completing a high percentage of his passes. Ask Rich if he thinks he's better than Elway and he'll laugh in your face.

Elway barely top 10? No, you're not a troll... Just ignorant. You need to log off of fantasy football long enough to realize that Elway isn't arguably top 10, he is arguably #1. The only other 2 guys that have a say in the argument are Joe Montana and Unitas.

HammeredOut
07-12-2011, 12:46 PM
Now look at the 2 seasons we won the SB and look at the 3 we lost. Are you going to tell me that the 3 we lost were stacked teams? Stacked like Aikmans' and Bradshaws' teams?

:lol:

pull out some stats, and construct a paragraph to go with it. lets debate.

OaklandRaider
07-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Absolute nonsense... Your post is more tainted with envy than any trophy Elway was mistakenly given by the NFL.

No envy on my part, bro. Just calling it like I see it.


You can take all the stats you want and blow them up your ass.

No need to get all hostile :coffee:

Those stats are legit - Elway never finished top ten in PR until his tenth year in the league. Compare that to guys like Joe Montana, or Dan Marino, Steve Young, Brett Farve, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and all the other great QBs. Elway simply doesn't match up from a statistic standpoint. He was a very inefficient QB for the majority of his career.



Once Elway got into a west coast-style offense under Shanahan, his stats exploded and he put up great numbers.

Thats true - Elways numbers did improve once Shanahan took over as head coach. But let's be honest, at that point, the Denver Broncos offense was all about Terrell Davis, not John Elway. Elway was more of a game manager at that point.

Elways last four years in the league, the Broncos finished top five in rushing each year.


Rich Gannon had the luxury of playing in a system designed for the QB to put up great numbers making easy throws and completing a high percentage of his passes. Ask Rich if he thinks he's better than Elway and he'll laugh in your face.

I never brought Rich Gannon up in this thread?:confused:


Elway barely top 10? No, you're not a troll... Just ignorant. You need to log off of fantasy football long enough to realize that Elway isn't arguably top 10, he is arguably #1. The only other 2 guys that have a say in the argument are Joe Montana and Unitas.

Lol, looks like someone has their orange and blue glasses on. :D

Guys that Elway has absolutely NO argument over IMO are:

Montana
Steve Young
Marino
Brett Farve
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Unitas
Otto Graham

And then there are guys like Kurt Warner, Troy Aikman, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr and a bunch of other guys who you could easily make the case for being on par, or better then Elway.

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 01:02 PM
No envy on my part, bro. Just calling it like I see it.



No need to get all hostile :coffee:

Those stats are legit - Elway never finished top ten in PR until his tenth year in the league. Compare that to guys like Joe Montana, or Dan Marino, Steve Young, Brett Farve, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and all the other great QBs. Elway simply doesn't match up from a statistic standpoint. He was a very inefficient QB for the majority of his career.




Thats true - Elways numbers did improve once Shanahan took over as head coach. But let's be honest, at that point, the Denver Broncos offense was all about Terrell Davis, not John Elway. Elway was more of a game manager at that point.

Elways last four years in the league, the Broncos finished top five in rushing each year.



I never brought Rich Gannon up in this thread?:confused:



Lol, looks like someone has their orange and blue glasses on. :D

Guys that Elway has absolutely NO argument over IMO are:

Montana
Steve Young
Marino
Brett Farve
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Unitas
Otto Graham

And then there are guys like Kurt Warner, Troy Aikman, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr and a bunch of other guys who you could easily make the case for being on par, or better then Elway.



Glad you are not an expert and all of the experts, HOF players and other have Elway in Top5 of all time. Are you just going to bash Elway, because during his era the raiders were crap?

GEM
07-12-2011, 01:59 PM
pull out some stats, and construct a paragraph to go with it. lets debate.

Take your bs stats and debate yourself.

Bradshaw was carried by the players surrounding him. Aikman was better than Bradshaw, but was still carried by the players surrounding him.

There is no debate there.

BroncoStud
07-12-2011, 01:59 PM
No envy on my part, bro. Just calling it like I see it.



No need to get all hostile :coffee:

Those stats are legit - Elway never finished top ten in PR until his tenth year in the league. Compare that to guys like Joe Montana, or Dan Marino, Steve Young, Brett Farve, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and all the other great QBs. Elway simply doesn't match up from a statistic standpoint. He was a very inefficient QB for the majority of his career.




Thats true - Elways numbers did improve once Shanahan took over as head coach. But let's be honest, at that point, the Denver Broncos offense was all about Terrell Davis, not John Elway. Elway was more of a game manager at that point.

Elways last four years in the league, the Broncos finished top five in rushing each year.



I never brought Rich Gannon up in this thread?:confused:



Lol, looks like someone has their orange and blue glasses on. :D

Guys that Elway has absolutely NO argument over IMO are:

Montana
Steve Young
Marino
Brett Farve
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Unitas
Otto Graham

And then there are guys like Kurt Warner, Troy Aikman, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr and a bunch of other guys who you could easily make the case for being on par, or better then Elway.

I agree with Montana, I'm a big Steve Young fan, though he was amazing, Marino was the best PASSER I've ever seen, but not the best QB, Favre... Not even close, he is borderline top 10, choked far too often to be in the top 3, Brady hasn't even BEEN to a Super Bowl without cheating, pass, Manning, he is arguably the best of all-time, forgot him, he's incredible, Unitas - agree, Graham really haven't seen enough of, Warner... Great QB, not top 10, Aikman, great QB not top 5, Tarketon was solid, Starr was soid...

Only 3 or so of those guys are in Elway's league...

John was handcuffed with Dan Reeves in the 80's, simply BAD teams in the early 1990's, and when he got a supporting cast he won Super Bowls, period.

Give Elway a coach like Walsh early iin his career and John might have won 5-6 Super Bowls.

Ravage!!!
07-12-2011, 02:48 PM
No one could do more with less, than Elway.

Its funny, because a Raider HoF DE will tell you exactly who he believes is the best QB to ever play the game. Ask Howie Long who he believes to be the greatest he ever played against, and bring up those stats to him.... I would love to watch him absolutely laugh in your face.

Howie has always stated, without a doubt, that John Elway was the greatest PLAYER he's ever played against. He played against John, twice a year, for over a decade. He will tell you that they wouldn't practice to defend the Broncos, they would practice to defend Elway.... and couldn't stop him.

Stats are meaningless. Stats are just numbers on a sheet. Some of you guys actually need to watch some football instead of thinking stats are the tell-all of how good a player is. Its sad.

I know the kind of people that only stare at stat sheets...... and they need to get some gamblers anonymous help. That or they need to get away from Fantasy football and experience life for once.

OaklandRaider
07-12-2011, 04:08 PM
I agree with Montana

Montana has better stats and a better winning percentage then Elway. No debate


I'm a big Steve Young fan, though he was amazing

I'd take Young in his prime over Elway in his prime. Young was more athletic, and a more efficient passer. Young also played his best ball in the superbowl - something John Elway never was able to do.


Marino was the best PASSER I've ever seen, but not the best QB

Marino is definitely one of the best pure passers of all time. I'd take Marino in his prime over Elway in his.

The only argument Elway has over Marino is the rings, and Elway can thank Terrell Davis for that.


Favre... Not even close, he is borderline top 10, choked far too often to be in the top 3

Farves not in my top 3, but I'd deff take him over Elway.

People forget just how ridicoulously good Brett Farve was in his prime. Didn't he win like 3 MVPs back to back to back? He was awesome in his prime. I'd take him over Elway.


Brady hasn't even BEEN to a Super Bowl without cheating, pass,

Lol, I find it kind of ironic that a Bronco fan would try to discredit Tom Brady's accomplishments because of spygate.

Weren't the Broncos docked draft picks for circumventing the Salary Cap during those Super bowl years? Isn't that kind of cheating, too? So yeah I can flip that around and say the same about Elway. :D

Brady has superior stats then Elway, and a better winning percentage. Brady also won his first two superbowls with no names on offense like David Patten, David Givens etc.....while Elway won his Rings with HOF talent like Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith and McAfferey.


Manning, he is arguably the best of all-time, forgot him, he's incredible,

You forgot about Peyton Manning? Lol, how could you? The guy is the face of the NFL, haha.

But yeah, Manning is without a doubt better then Elway IMO. The only thing that's holding Manning back from reaching GOAT status, he only has one ring. He needs at least two more and then he will mentioned as GOAT.



Only 3 or so of those guys are in Elway's league...

I strongly disagree, but hey agree to disagree I guess. :cool:



Give Elway a coach like Walsh early in his career and John might have won 5-6 Super Bowls.

"Might have" "Should have" "Could have"

We can't play the "what if" game, my man. All we can do is look back and evaluate what did happen. And the facts are, Elway was pretty inefficient early on in his career, and didn't perform well when he reached the big game.

Don't get me wrong, Elway was a great great QB. But I just don't see how some people have him in the top, elite upper echelon level QBs.

TXBRONC
07-12-2011, 04:16 PM
I'd take Young in his prime over Elway in his prime. Young was more athletic, and a more efficient passer. Young also played his best ball in the superbowl - something John Elway never was able to do.

That is wrong. Super Bowl XXXIII he went 18 of 29 for 336 yards and 1 td and one 1 int. He also had a rushing td in that game as well. He also was the MVP of the game. It would be wise to check the facts first.

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Montana has better stats and a better winning percentage then Elway. No debate



I'd take Young in his prime over Elway in his prime. Young was more athletic, and a more efficient passer. Young also played his best ball in the superbowl - something John Elway never was able to do.



Marino is definitely one of the best pure passers of all time. I'd take Marino in his prime over Elway in his.

The only argument Elway has over Marino is the rings, and Elway can thank Terrell Davis for that.



Farves not in my top 3, but I'd deff take him over Elway.

People forget just how ridicoulously good Brett Farve was in his prime. Didn't he win like 3 MVPs back to back to back? He was awesome in his prime. I'd take him over Elway.



Lol, I find it kind of ironic that a Bronco fan would try to discredit Tom Brady's accomplishments because of spygate.

Weren't the Broncos docked draft picks for circumventing the Salary Cap during those Super bowl years? Isn't that kind of cheating, too? So yeah I can flip that around and say the same about Elway. :D

Brady has superior stats then Elway, and a better winning percentage. Brady also won his first two superbowls with no names on offense like David Patten, David Givens etc.....while Elway won his Rings with HOF talent like Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith and McAfferey.



You forgot about Peyton Manning? Lol, how could you? The guy is the face of the NFL, haha.

But yeah, Manning is without a doubt better then Elway IMO. The only thing that's holding Manning back from reaching GOAT status, he only has one ring. He needs at least two more and then he will mentioned as GOAT.




I strongly disagree, but hey agree to disagree I guess. :cool:



"Might have" "Should have" "Could have"

We can't play the "what if" game, my man. All we can do is look back and evaluate what did happen. And the facts are, Elway was pretty inefficient early on in his career, and didn't perform well when he reached the big game.

Don't get me wrong, Elway was a great great QB. But I just don't see how some people have him in the top, elite upper echelon level QBs.

Brady had a great defense in 2002 and 2003. He had your new FAV Raider Dl Seymour in his prime, Jarvis Green in prime, Bruschi, Izzo and Ty Law in his prime. These guys were all pro bowlers. He still have Deion Branch who became a SB MVP in 04. Brady also had a great line.

Brady is over rated. Look what his back up Cassel did with the same team. Cassel is by no means a great QB he is decent and the Patriots did still did good with Cassel.

Ravage!!!
07-12-2011, 04:35 PM
I don't think Brady is "over rated" at all. He wins. Isn't that what people ahve been trying to taught as the leading reason we should go with Tebow? Brady is a FANTASTIC QB, period. He's won with good defenses and bad, and has won when they were using CBs as WRs. He's one of the very hardest for defenses to play against. I don't know where you guys think that your viewing Brady from a perspective that those in teh NFL don't, but Tom is up there with the best that have ever played.

OaklandRaider
07-12-2011, 04:38 PM
Brady had a great defense in 2002 and 2003. He had your new FAV Raider Dl Seymour in his prime, Jarvis Green in prime, Bruschi, Izzo and Ty Law in his prime. These guys were all pro bowlers. He still have Deion Branch who became a SB MVP in 04. Brady also had a great line.

John Elway also had some pretty solid defenses during his first 3 super bowl apparances.

1986: The Broncos defense ranked 15th in Points allowed and 9th in total yards allowed.

1987: The Broncos defense ranked 7th in Points allowed and 9th in total yards allowed.

1989: The Broncos defense ranked 1st in points allowed and 3rd in total yards allowed.


Brady is over rated. Look what his back up Cassel did with the same team. Cassel is by no means a great QB he is decent and the Patriots did still did good with Cassel.

I hate Brady as much as the next guy, but the dude is not overrated. Did you see the season Brady had last year throwing to guys like Deion Branch and an injured Wes Welker? One of the best, most efficient years I've ever seen from the QB position.

And those Matt Cassell led Patriots you are talking about failed to make the playoffs that year - so I don't see your point.

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 04:52 PM
John Elway also had some pretty solid defenses during his first 3 super bowl apparances.

1986: The Broncos defense ranked 15th in Points allowed and 9th in total yards allowed.

1987: The Broncos defense ranked 7th in Points allowed and 9th in total yards allowed.

1989: The Broncos defense ranked 1st in points allowed and 3rd in total yards allowed.



I hate Brady as much as the next guy, but the dude is not overrated. Did you see the season Brady had last year throwing to guys like Deion Branch and an injured Wes Welker? One of the best, most efficient years I've ever seen from the QB position.

And those Matt Cassell led Patriots you are talking about failed to make the playoffs that year - so I don't see your point.


That was a response to you saying Brady won it with a team of nobodies. The patriots lost out to the dolphins i believe that year who had the same record.

OaklandRaider
07-12-2011, 04:57 PM
No one could do more with less, than Elway.

Its funny, because a Raider HoF DE will tell you exactly who he believes is the best QB to ever play the game. Ask Howie Long who he believes to be the greatest he ever played against, and bring up those stats to him.... I would love to watch him absolutely laugh in your face.

Howie has always stated, without a doubt, that John Elway was the greatest PLAYER he's ever played against. He played against John, twice a year, for over a decade. He will tell you that they wouldn't practice to defend the Broncos, they would practice to defend Elway.... and couldn't stop him.



Oh so since Howie Long said it, so it must be true?:lol:

I respect Howie Long's opinion because he was actually out there on the field, playing against Elway....but I disagree with it.....


Stats are meaningless. Stats are just numbers on a sheet. Some of you guys actually need to watch some football instead of thinking stats are the tell-all of how good a player is. Its sad.

Stats can be used to twist things I agree, but they are not meaningless.....especially when you are using them to compare players against one another......

I've never disputed that John Elway was a great QB.....I just have a problem when people are saying he was "arguably the best to ever play".....thats when I feel the need to step in and debate.

Fact - John Elway averaged 19 Touchdowns and 14 Interceptions a year.....

Fact - John Elway NEVER in his entire career Elway NEVER – led the league in any major passing categories (completions, yards, TDs, passer rating).

John Elway, as great as he was, was never really ever an ELITE passer....Again these are just the facts, not twisting anything.....

OaklandRaider
07-12-2011, 05:04 PM
That is wrong. Super Bowl XXXIII he went 18 of 29 for 336 yards and 1 td and one 1 int. He also had a rushing td in that game as well. He also was the MVP of the game. It would be wise to check the facts first.

You are right.....for some reason I always forget about that SB lol......I always think of the Packer one :D


But that's one out five Superbowls where Elway brought his A game........Not a good percentage for a guy who some are arguing is top 5 all time.

Ravage!!!
07-12-2011, 05:10 PM
Oh so since Howie Long said it, so it must be true?:lol:

I respect Howie Long's opinion because he was actually out there on the field, playing against Elway....but I disagree with it.....



Stats can be used to twist things I agree, but they are not meaningless.....especially when you are using them to compare players against one another......

I've never disputed that John Elway was a great QB.....I just have a problem when people are saying he was "arguably the best to ever play".....thats when I feel the need to step in and debate.

Fact - John Elway averaged 19 Touchdowns and 14 Interceptions a year.....

Fact - John Elway NEVER in his entire career Elway NEVER – led the league in any major passing categories (completions, yards, TDs, passer rating).

John Elway, as great as he was, was never really ever an ELITE passer....Again these are just the facts, not twisting anything.....

:lol: you have no credibility when you say Elway was not ELITE. Thats just .. silly. You are basing this off of stats, and thats all you are basing your opinion off of. That being the case, you have PROVED that stats are meaningless. NO ONE in the football industry, that actually watches and KNOWS football, would EVER agree with you that Elway was not elite. ITs just an absurd statement that doesn't make an ounce of sense. If you think that your stats make them "facts".. then you are farther away from reality than I imagined you to be.

BTW.. QBR is NOT a major passing category! :lol:

Denver Native (Carol)
07-12-2011, 05:13 PM
You are right.....for some reason I always forget about that SB lol......I always think of the Packer one :D


But that's one out five Superbowls where Elway brought his A game........Not a good percentage for a guy who some are arguing is top 5 all time.

REALLY - don't forget the helicopter in the SB against GB. ALSO, the game plan in that game was more running than passing.

TXBRONC
07-12-2011, 05:15 PM
REALLY - don't forget the helicopter in the SB against GB. ALSO, the game plan in that game was more running than passing.

I was going say something similar.

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 05:15 PM
You are right.....for some reason I always forget about that SB lol......I always think of the Packer one :D


But that's one out five Superbowls where Elway brought his A game........Not a good percentage for a guy who some are arguing is top 5 all time.

Atleast he led his team to 5 SBs over his span, with different coaches too.

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 05:20 PM
Some Elway Highlights

Elway is the only player to throw for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 200 yards in seven straight seasons (1985–1991).

Elway was named the AFC Offensive MVP in 1993 when he passed for over 4,030 yards and 25 touchdowns. He had a quarterback rating of 92.8. DAMN THAT IS NICE

Elway is the oldest player to score a touchdown in a Super Bowl at age 38 in Super Bowl XXXIII.

Elway is one of only two players to rush for a touchdown in four Super Bowls (XXI, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII). Thurman Thomas is the other.

Elway was selected to the Pro Bowl nine times during his 16 seasons with the Broncos, a franchise record.

Over his professional career, Elway led Denver to 34 comeback wins in the 4th quarter & overtime, tied for third with Johnny Unitas.[20]

Elway's 148 wins place him second to Brett Favre for career wins among quarterbacks.

Elway was sacked 516 times, second to Favre for most times sacked in NFL history.

Elway's 300 career touchdown passes places him fifth behind Favre, Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton and Peyton Manning.

Elway is one of only four quarterbacks to pass for at least 3,000 yards in 12 seasons; Favre, Marino and Manning are the others.

NightTerror218
07-12-2011, 05:23 PM
This is straight from the HOF Website

In the NFL Record Book

At time of his retirement following 1998 season

• [1st] Most Times Sacked, Career - 516
• [2nd] Most Passes Attempted, Career - 7,250
• [2nd] Most Passes Completed, Career - 4,123
• [2nd] Most Passing Yards, Career - 51,475
• [2nd] Most Seasons 3,000 Yards or More Passing - 12
• [3rd] Most Touchdown Passes, Career - 300
• [3rd] Most Fumbles, Career - 137

Super Bowl Records

• [1st] Most Passes Attempted, Career - 152
• [1st] Most Passes Intercepted, Career - 8
• [Tied for 1st] Most Fumbles Recovered, Career - 2
• [2nd] Most Passing Yards, Career - 1,128
• [Tied for 2nd] Most Games - 5
• [Tied for 2nd] Longest Pass Completion - 80 (to Rod Smith, Super Bowl XXXIII)
• [Tied for 2nd] Most Fumbles, Game - 2 (Super Bowl XXIV)
• [3rd] Most Passes Completed, Career - 76
• [3rd] Most Passing Yards, Game - 336 (Super Bowl XXXIII)
• [Tied for 3rd] Most Points, Career - 24
• [Tied for 3rd] Most Fumbles, Career - 3

Post-Season Records

• [2nd] Most Passes Attempted, Career - 651
• [2nd] Most Passing Yards, Career - 4,964
• [2nd] Most Fumbles, Career - 14
• [2nd] Most Own Fumble Recoveries, Career - 7
• [3rd] Most Passes Completed, Career - 355
• [Tied for 3rd] Most Gamer 300 or More Yards Passing - 4
• [3rd] Most Touchdown Passes, Career - 27
• [3rd] Most Consecutive Games with Touchdown Pass - 9 (1984-1989)

BroncoStud
07-12-2011, 10:11 PM
Montana has better stats and a better winning percentage then Elway. No debate



I'd take Young in his prime over Elway in his prime. Young was more athletic, and a more efficient passer. Young also played his best ball in the superbowl - something John Elway never was able to do.



Marino is definitely one of the best pure passers of all time. I'd take Marino in his prime over Elway in his.

The only argument Elway has over Marino is the rings, and Elway can thank Terrell Davis for that.



Farves not in my top 3, but I'd deff take him over Elway.

People forget just how ridicoulously good Brett Farve was in his prime. Didn't he win like 3 MVPs back to back to back? He was awesome in his prime. I'd take him over Elway.



Lol, I find it kind of ironic that a Bronco fan would try to discredit Tom Brady's accomplishments because of spygate.

Weren't the Broncos docked draft picks for circumventing the Salary Cap during those Super bowl years? Isn't that kind of cheating, too? So yeah I can flip that around and say the same about Elway. :D

Brady has superior stats then Elway, and a better winning percentage. Brady also won his first two superbowls with no names on offense like David Patten, David Givens etc.....while Elway won his Rings with HOF talent like Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith and McAfferey.



You forgot about Peyton Manning? Lol, how could you? The guy is the face of the NFL, haha.

But yeah, Manning is without a doubt better then Elway IMO. The only thing that's holding Manning back from reaching GOAT status, he only has one ring. He needs at least two more and then he will mentioned as GOAT.




I strongly disagree, but hey agree to disagree I guess. :cool:



"Might have" "Should have" "Could have"

We can't play the "what if" game, my man. All we can do is look back and evaluate what did happen. And the facts are, Elway was pretty inefficient early on in his career, and didn't perform well when he reached the big game.

Don't get me wrong, Elway was a great great QB. But I just don't see how some people have him in the top, elite upper echelon level QBs.


Ok, you just discredited yourself in this post. Giving Montana the edge in stats and wins in the 1980's when he had BETTER teams, BETTER systems, and BETTER coaches, and Elway did so much with far less... Montana was great, but if you put Elway on those 49er teams they are STILL Super Bowl teams, you put Montana on Elway's Broncos teams of the 1980's and he might be out of the NFL in 5 season with injury.

Steve Young was solid, but he also had the fortune of throwing to a guy named Jerry Rice and playing on VERY good teams.

Favre.... You've gotta be kidding. He's not even CLOSE to John Elway in his prime. Yes Favre had good seasons but he had far too many BAD seasons to match.

Manning is the best field general I've seen play. He's simply a coach on the field and as accurate as I've ever witnessed with a football. Were he mobile he would be the perfect QB. Still, he isn't head and shoulders above anyone and since you like to count Super Bowls so much, he hasn't sniffed nearly as many as Elway did.

Elway / Brady. Elway took the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls in the 80's, long before there was a salary cap, Brady hasn't been to a Super Bowl without acknowledged cheating. Period, end of story.

Dan Marino is/was the best pure passer ever, but Elway was a better overall package of a QB. Still, they are very close and both are near the top.

But as Ravage mentioned, Howie Long made it clear that as an NFL player the QB he most feard and respected and thinks is the best he's ever seen is John Elway. That's coming from a Raiders Hall of Famer, not me, not any Broncos fan, but a guy that tried to stop Elway every season and most of the time couldn't.

The best "X" is always just a matter of opinion and penis-measurement. The truth is that if you are lucky enough to draft any of the top 10 players mentioned you probably won a lot of games. Was the best RB Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton?? Dunno, what's your flavor? In the end what does it matter.

HammeredOut
07-13-2011, 07:02 AM
Take your bs stats and debate yourself.

Bradshaw was carried by the players surrounding him. Aikman was better than Bradshaw, but was still carried by the players surrounding him.

There is no debate there.

Great Stats. And good debate.

:defense:

chazoe60
07-13-2011, 07:34 AM
Great Stats. And good debate.

:defense:

Why are you so hung up on stats? The whole point is that stats don't tell the entire story.

Thanks for the laughs though.

horsepig
07-14-2011, 12:35 AM
Elway lead 3 pretty average terams to Super Bowls.

I might br inclined to disagree with posters who criticize Reeves, he won one Hell of a lot of games in Denver.

Elway looked pretty darned good with Shanny as HC and some pretty potent weapons on offense. Anybody seen that picture of Elway walking back to the huddle on 2'nd & 2 at the goalline? Schlereth, Zim, Sharpe, TD, Griffith, Nails, Eddie Mac & Rod Smith are just ahead of Elway walking to ther huddle. Wow! I mean even John would have to look at those guys backs and think, no problemo, man 6 points coming up babeeee!

FanInAZ
07-14-2011, 01:31 AM
Elway lead 3 pretty average terams to Super Bowls.

I might br inclined to disagree with posters who criticize Reeves, he won one Hell of a lot of games in Denver.

Elway looked pretty darned good with Shanny as HC and some pretty potent weapons on offense. Anybody seen that picture of Elway walking back to the huddle on 2'nd & 2 at the goalline? Schlereth, Zim, Sharpe, TD, Griffith, Nails, Eddie Mac & Rod Smith are just ahead of Elway walking to ther huddle. Wow! I mean even John would have to look at those guys backs and think, no problemo, man 6 points coming up babeeee!

Reeves' record in Denver prior to Elway: 12-13 (.480).
Reeves' record with Elway: 98-60-1 (.620)
Reeves' post Elway record, with the Giants & Falcons: 80-92-1 (.465).

Reeves' record without Elway: 92-105-1 (.467)
Elway's record without Reeves record: 59-30 (.663)

Bottom line, Elway made Reeves a winner. Without Elway, Reeves is a sub .500 coach.

Canmore
07-14-2011, 01:34 AM
Reeves' record in Denver prior to Elway: 12-13 (.480).
Reeves' record with Elway: 98-60-1 (.620)
Reeves' post Elway record, with the Giants & Falcons: 80-92-1 (.465).

Reeves' record without Elway: 92-105-1 (.467)
Elway's record without Reeves record: 59-30 (.663)

Bottom line, Elway made Reeves a winner. Without Elway, Reeves is a sub .500 coach.

He did make it to a Super Bowl without Elway though. We all remember how that turned out.

zbeg
07-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Reeves' record in Denver prior to Elway: 12-13 (.480).
Reeves' record with Elway: 98-60-1 (.620)
Reeves' post Elway record, with the Giants & Falcons: 80-92-1 (.465).

Reeves' record without Elway: 92-105-1 (.467)
Elway's record without Reeves record: 59-30 (.663)

Bottom line, Elway made Reeves a winner. Without Elway, Reeves is a sub .500 coach.

Reeves was still a pretty darn good coach - I don't think Landry's record without Staubach or Shula's record without Griese/Marino were very good, either. Good coaches still need good quarterbacks.

Reeves had a game plan that was a big part of why the Broncos overachieved in the 80s. He did it again with the Giants, and then again with the Falcons. Those teams were just not that talented, but he got a ton out of them and his teams won a lot of games they had no business winning.

The 1998 NFCCG game against the Vikings was so typically Dan Reeves. Team given no chance, goes on the road, plays ball control, gets a few breaks, and walks out of the building with a win.

Sure, he was flawed, but people act as if a box of hair could have coached the Broncos to three SBs in the 80s, and that's just not true. Guy was a damn good coach. Not perfect, but damn good.

Canmore
07-14-2011, 02:00 AM
Reeves was still a pretty darn good coach - I don't think Landry's record without Staubach or Shula's record without Griese/Marino were very good, either. Good coaches still need good quarterbacks.

Reeves had a game plan that was a big part of why the Broncos overachieved in the 80s. He did it again with the Giants, and then again with the Falcons. Those teams were just not that talented, but he got a ton out of them and his teams won a lot of games they had no business winning.

The 1998 NFCCG game against the Vikings was so typically Dan Reeves. Team given no chance, goes on the road, plays ball control, gets a few breaks, and walks out of the building with a win.

Sure, he was flawed, but people act as if a box of hair could have coached the Broncos to three SBs in the 80s, and that's just not true. Guy was a damn good coach. Not perfect, but damn good.

He took the Broncos to three Super Bowls with nothing more than a set of great linebackers, and safeties a pro bowl runningback and a HoF quarterback. Talk about an incomplete team and it showed in the Super Bowls.

BroncoStud
07-14-2011, 03:48 PM
Elway lead 3 pretty average terams to Super Bowls.

I might br inclined to disagree with posters who criticize Reeves, he won one Hell of a lot of games in Denver.

Elway looked pretty darned good with Shanny as HC and some pretty potent weapons on offense. Anybody seen that picture of Elway walking back to the huddle on 2'nd & 2 at the goalline? Schlereth, Zim, Sharpe, TD, Griffith, Nails, Eddie Mac & Rod Smith are just ahead of Elway walking to ther huddle. Wow! I mean even John would have to look at those guys backs and think, no problemo, man 6 points coming up babeeee!

Dan Reeves was an average coach.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 05:02 PM
Dan Reeves was an average coach.

That led two separate teams to a total of 4Super Bowls? That's definitely far above average

Canmore
07-14-2011, 05:08 PM
That led two separate teams to a total of 4Super Bowls? That's definitely far above average

I may not have liked his 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense, but he was far from average. Well said.

TXBRONC
07-14-2011, 05:32 PM
I may not have liked his 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense, but he was far from average. Well said.


That led two separate teams to a total of 4Super Bowls? That's definitely far above average

Reeves problem was that he was way to ridgid in his approach to the game.

Lonestar
07-14-2011, 08:25 PM
Reeves' record in Denver prior to Elway: 12-13 (.480).
Reeves' record with Elway: 98-60-1 (.620)
Reeves' post Elway record, with the Giants & Falcons: 80-92-1 (.465).
Reeves' record without Elway: 92-105-1 (.467)
Elway's without Reeves record: 59-30 (.663)
Bottom line, Elway made Reeves a winner. Without Elway, Reeves is a sub .500 coach.

Just think had reeves just allowed him to play and stop the stupid runs for no gain nor 2 yards he would have won a Hell of alot more games. But he was old school run the ball RB that had issues with a head strong young pup.


I firmly believe that Dano held John back from alot if marinos records

Lonestar
07-14-2011, 08:28 PM
Dan Reeves was an average coach.

Something else we can agree on.

Could care less how many SB bids he won. It was inspite of his offense here in DEN. IMHO in atl he had a super stud RB. And good defense.

IIRC those two time in DEN he beat Marty. Ahahahahahahaha or I should say John beat Marty.

Ravage!!!
07-14-2011, 10:38 PM
So a RB took the falcons to the super bowl?

Weird. Quite the coincidence. 3 SBs in Denver and takes a 7-9 team to the SB (that franchises ONLY SB appearance) after just two years as the HC, and it's because of the RB.

horsepig
07-14-2011, 11:21 PM
Reeves was anything but average. Love him or hate him, he was not average.

BroncoStud
07-15-2011, 10:10 AM
That led two separate teams to a total of 4Super Bowls? That's definitely far above average

Take away Elway and he took Denver NOWHERE, but he did draft Tommy Maddox! :elefant:

I'll give him the Atlanta Super Bowl (which he also got blown out in) but he was more of a hinderance in the 1980s than an asset. A coach that opened up the playbook and allowed Elway to play in a modern offense like Marino and Montana could have won Super Bowls in the 1980s, not show up and get blown away.