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View Full Version : Champ vs. Revis vs. Asomugha



rationalfan
07-05-2011, 10:13 AM
Here's a change in the lockout world, an actual story with stats rather than opinion.

Basically, it's looking at how the league's top three corners stack up against each other. Link below.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/07/05/data-points-champ-vs-revis-vs-nnamdi/

vandammage13
07-05-2011, 10:20 AM
Well, it looks like Revis holds the edge on Champ since he's actually targeted more and allows less completions. Seems like teams are too scared of Asomugha to even test him.

I would take Champ in his prime over those guys though, just not today.

Good find!

LordTrychon
07-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Well, it looks like Revis holds the edge on Champ since he's actually targeted more and allows less completions. Seems like teams are too scared of Asomugha to even test him.

I would take Champ in his prime over those guys though, just not today.

Good find!

What they don't mention... from what I've heard is that Asomugha is often not put on the best receiver.

I don't understand the logic... maybe he just stays on one side, and teams move away from him... but he covers 2s and 3s as often as 1s.

SOCALORADO.
07-05-2011, 10:37 AM
GOAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux2J55uvJ10


http://www.sportslegendsphotosinc.com/prodimages/Football-Legends/Darrell%20GreenCLR.jpg

vandammage13
07-05-2011, 10:43 AM
What they don't mention... from what I've heard is that Asomugha is often not put on the best receiver.

I don't understand the logic... maybe he just stays on one side, and teams move away from him... but he covers 2s and 3s as often as 1s.

I think its a fairly common practice for CB's to only play one side of the field in today's NFL. It makes sense to me because switching sides everydown would be akin to having your LT switch to RT just because a teams best DE plays on the right side.

LordTrychon
07-05-2011, 10:47 AM
I think its a fairly common practice for CB's to only play one side of the field in today's NFL. It makes sense to me because switching sides everydown would be akin to having your LT switch to RT just because a teams best DE plays on the right side.

Well, I don't have anything to back this up other than what Raiders fans themselves have said.

Having a Corner switch sides to trail a WR is not like switching a tackle. Not all teams do it often, but all teams do it to some extent or another. Man coverage requires it at least some.

I remember thinking that Champ doesn't do it as much as you'd expect a few years back.

Still, it's pretty common if you have a talented corner, to lock him on to the most talented receiver.

topscribe
07-05-2011, 10:48 AM
What they don't mention... from what I've heard is that Asomugha is often not put on the best receiver.

I don't understand the logic... maybe he just stays on one side, and teams move away from him... but he covers 2s and 3s as often as 1s.

As I noted in the comments over there, once again only part of the story, a
single statistic, is given, then a broad conclusion is drawn.

Moreover, even the statistic itself is misrepresented. Yes, Asomugha was
completed on only 1.2 times a game, but he was thrown on only 2.2 times. That
represents a 54% completion ratio. Compare that to Revis, who was completed
on only 43%.

Still, as you implied, even represented accurately, that would have told only
part of the story . . .

-----

LordTrychon
07-05-2011, 10:52 AM
As I noted in the comments over there, once again only part of the story, a
single statistic, is given, then a broad conclusion is drawn.

Moreover, even the statistic itself is misrepresented. Yes, Asomugha was
completed on only 1.2 times a game, but he was thrown on only 2.2 times. That
represents a 54% completion ratio. Compare that to Revis, who was completed
on only 43%.

Still, as you implied, even represented accurately, that would have told only
part of the story . . .

-----

Throw in for Revis and Asomugha how often the D-Line got QB Pressures....

Ravage!!!
07-05-2011, 11:15 AM
This article just shows, once again, that stats don't tell the story. These stats don't mean anything, and certainly don't hole more water than anyone's opinion. Some people are so determined to judge a player based on numerical data, that they refuse to simply use the "eye" test...... which generally is more reliable than some numbers on paper.

vandammage13
07-05-2011, 11:57 AM
This article just shows, once again, that stats don't tell the story. These stats don't mean anything, and certainly don't hole more water than anyone's opinion. Some people are so determined to judge a player based on numerical data, that they refuse to simply use the "eye" test...... which generally is more reliable than some numbers on paper.

I tend to agree in most cases, but CB's would be harder to asess without stats because the camera is really only on them when the ball comes their way....Just out of curiosity, how would you rank these guys based on your eye test.

NightTerror218
07-05-2011, 11:57 AM
One thing that was not in champs favor last season was that when a QB is given unlimited amount of time he will find a receiver to make a completion. It seemed a lot of the time we had no pressure on the QB and he had forever to wait for our defense to brake down and make a pass.

Dean
07-05-2011, 02:52 PM
This article just shows, once again, that stats don't tell the story. These stats don't mean anything, and certainly don't hole more water than anyone's opinion. Some people are so determined to judge a player based on numerical data, that they refuse to simply use the "eye" test...... which generally is more reliable than some numbers on paper.

I agree with the general idea that you propose but they are not insignificant either. If you only look at stats on a few segments of what you want to know, then no they don't tell the story or at least not the complete story. The more stats that are used in dealing with the job of a cornerback the more valid and clear the picture but the two stats given don't give us the whole picture. If you include time of coverage (pressures and sacks), tackles, safety help over the top, man versus zone coverage, which receivers they in coverage against, etc; the picture becomes much clearer. The stats become more definitive and reliable.

The problem with the "eye test", as I see it, is that the defensive play call and the required technique is seldom known. We don't know if the corner was to be in man with or without help or with or without a bump. We can't tell if the corner had correct leverage because we don't know where his help is supposed to be at. We don't know if he was in zone and what zone for him was called nor where the seams to turn over responsibility in it were expected to be. We don't know if the coverage is combo where some defenders are in zone and some in man.

In any case, a corner can be in perfect coverage but the ball placement is such that the defender can't make a play on the ball but the receiver can. The position is so difficult to judge based solely on watching from the cheap seats.

Canmore
07-05-2011, 02:55 PM
I agree with the general idea that you propose but they are not insignificant either. If you only look at stats on a few segments of what you want to know, then no they don't tell the story or at least not the complete story. The more stats that are used dealing with job of a cornerback the more valid the picture but the two stats given. If you include time of coverage (pressures and sacks), tackles, safety help over the top, man versus zone coverage, which receivers they in coverage against, etc; the picture becomes clearer. The picture becomes clearer.

The problem with the "eye test", as I see it, is that the defensive play call and the required technique is seldom known. We don't know if the corner was to be in man with or without help or with or without a bump. We can't tell if the corner had correct leverage because we don't know where his help is supposed to be at. We don't know if he was in zone and what zone for him was called nor where the seams to turn over responsibility in it were expected to be. We don't know if the coverage is combo where some defenders are in zone and some in man.

In any case, a corner can be in perfect coverage but the ball placement is such that the defender can't make a play on the ball but the receiver can. The position is so difficult to judge based solely on watching from the cheap seats.

Try watching on TV where they follow the ball and you can't follow a player espcially a corner.

Canmore
07-05-2011, 11:58 PM
One thing that was not in champs favor last season was that when a QB is given unlimited amount of time he will find a receiver to make a completion. It seemed a lot of the time we had no pressure on the QB and he had forever to wait for our defense to brake down and make a pass.

Let's hope Elvis regains his 2009 form and Miller is the real deal. Nothing like a pass rush to help out your defensive backfield. :defense:

Dzone
07-06-2011, 12:47 AM
oops

jwmann2
07-06-2011, 11:28 AM
Champ is aging, no where near as dominant as he used to be, neither is D'Angelo Hall. Then again, a lot of people said that about Charles Woodson and look at the year he just had. I say Revis is the most dominant in the league, I have seen him in person twice, any guy that can press OchoCinco and have success is an ace in my book.

topscribe
07-06-2011, 11:44 AM
Champ is aging, no where near as dominant as he used to be, neither is D'Angelo Hall. Then again, a lot of people said that about Charles Woodson and look at the year he just had. I say Revis is the most dominant in the league, I have seen him in person twice, any guy that can press OchoCinco and have success is an ace in my book.

But I believe Champ is. As LT implied, I don't know who could have done a
better job with virtually no pass rush in front of him and constantly having to
keep a closer eye than usual for a RB running free on the second level.

It's amazing that people look at a player's age and seem automatically to
assume he is not as effective because of that. Darrell Green was closing in on
40 when he retired. The Broncos thought enough of Champ to give him a
contract fit for an elite player that set him up for several more years.

Put the type of pass rush in front of him that Revis and Asomugha enjoyed,
and you will see dominance, IMO.

-----

SOCALORADO.
07-06-2011, 01:19 PM
Champ is aging, no where near as dominant as he used to be, neither is D'Angelo Hall. Then again, a lot of people said that about Charles Woodson and look at the year he just had. I say Revis is the most dominant in the league, I have seen him in person twice, any guy that can press OchoCinco and have success is an ace in my book.

Put a pass rush in front of Champ, and he will look every bit as good as Woodson. Imagine Champ on GB right now!
Jeez.. are you kidding me!?!?! He would be back to dominant form, and not having to play 2 positions all game.
Hopefully (SIGHS) "Von-Doom" can help with a pass rush!

NightTerror218
07-06-2011, 07:10 PM
another article on ESPN was comparing them also, because of Asomugha being a free agent, and it takes about he does not produce the turnovers that the other CBs do. Well i cant find it and Bill sums it up in the AFC West blog.

here is the NFL.com article
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d820a2895/article/asomugha-is-a-star-but-suitors-have-reason-to-be-worried

broncoFan!
07-07-2011, 12:52 AM
It's kind of a miracle that Champ Bailey had any interceptions at all this season considering that we had next to none pass rush coming from our d-line. Someone who can still shut down one of the top wide receivers in the league (Dwayne Bowe) deserves some credit.

Don't hate on Bailey.

tomjonesrocks
07-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Bailey got absolutely smoked against Bowe last season--whether he was told to play off of him or whatever it was the worst I can recall seeing Champ look. I wonder how those numbers would look if that game was thrown out.

I guess at this point I'm sort of surprised that the numbers stack up this well. While I'm happy (though utterly astonished) Champ is still on the team I consider him a full step below these guys at this point in his career.

Canmore
07-07-2011, 12:43 PM
Bailey got absolutely smoked against Bowe last season--whether he was told to play off of him or whatever it was the worst I've ever seen Champ look. I wonder how those numbers would look if that game was thrown out.

Game two was a different story.

HammeredOut
07-08-2011, 03:31 PM
The best Corner in the league after Champ, Revis, and N.A is Asante Samuel. Asante has 36 Ints, 84 PDs, his last 5 seasons. Asante at the ripe age of 30, could have another strong 5 seasons and 20-30 Ints, and end up with near 60-70 Ints and top 10 all time. He is currently at 42Ints

topscribe
07-08-2011, 03:58 PM
Bailey got absolutely smoked against Bowe last season--whether he was told to play off of him or whatever it was the worst I can recall seeing Champ look. I wonder how those numbers would look if that game was thrown out.

I guess at this point I'm sort of surprised that the numbers stack up this well. While I'm happy (though utterly astonished) Champ is still on the team I consider him a full step below these guys at this point in his career.

Partial information is never good.

Against Bowe, Champ reacted like a champion. Bowe burned him the first game,
and then Champ absolutely shut Bowe down in the second, not allowing a pass
to him.

-----

Canmore
07-08-2011, 04:58 PM
Partial information is never good.

Against Bowe, Champ reacted like a champion. Bowe burned him the first game,
and then Champ absolutely shut Bowe down in the second, not allowing a pass
to him.

-----

I think after the first game, it was a little personal. Defintely, a heck of an afternoon by Champ.

horsepig
07-09-2011, 12:41 PM
Bailey got absolutely smoked against Bowe last season--whether he was told to play off of him or whatever it was the worst I can recall seeing Champ look. I wonder how those numbers would look if that game was thrown out.

I guess at this point I'm sort of surprised that the numbers stack up this well. While I'm happy (though utterly astonished) Champ is still on the team I consider him a full step below these guys at this point in his career.

Go back and watch tape of that game. Champ was playing well off his man, even down field. I was screaming at Wink (on the tube) to straighten that BS out. I've got no idea what the secondary coach's strategy was, but it didn't work at all. I've never seen Champ cover like that, even when hampered by injury.

horsepig
07-09-2011, 12:45 PM
Another thing you'll notice if you watch that one again, is Champ's body language and demeanor. He obviously was not happy. After Bowe caught a long one on him, Bowe even felt moved to console him after the play, Bowe knew what was going on and wanted Champ to know that he understood what was happening.

silkamilkamonico
07-11-2011, 05:36 PM
Bailey is one of the greatest ever at the position, but this era belongs to Nnamdi and Revis, who are just better than Bailey right now IMO.

NightTerror218
07-11-2011, 06:05 PM
Bailey is one of the greatest ever at the position, but this era belongs to Nnamdi and Revis, who are just better than Bailey right now IMO.

That maybe true but nobody likes to throw in the side that either 1 of them is on. Except Bailey will play either side of the field, Nnamdi only plays the right side.

silkamilkamonico
07-11-2011, 06:55 PM
That maybe true but nobody likes to throw in the side that either 1 of them is on. Except Bailey will play either side of the field, Nnamdi only plays the right side.

Playing a particular side of the field is completely contingent on defensive scheme, not player preference. It still doesn't negate my opinion that Nnamdi is a better player than Bailey at this moment in time.

Revis is just flat out better than both of them and on an island of himself.

NightTerror218
07-11-2011, 07:01 PM
Playing a particular side of the field is completely contingent on defensive scheme, not player preference. It still doesn't negate my opinion that Nnamdi is a better player than Bailey at this moment in time.

Revis is just flat out better than both of them and on an island of himself.

Well if Nnamadi is always on the right side, but your best WR on the right and dont throw to the right. That would take into account why he is never throw at. Dont get me wrong, he is a great player, but I dont think he is as versatile as the other 2.

MOtorboat
07-11-2011, 07:04 PM
So, if you asked me which of those three players I would like to have on my team if I were a GM, my answer would be "yes."

HORSEPOWER 56
07-11-2011, 07:07 PM
Playing a particular side of the field is completely contingent on defensive scheme, not player preference. It still doesn't negate my opinion that Nnamdi is a better player than Bailey at this moment in time.

Revis is just flat out better than both of them and on an island of himself.

You say that (about Revis), but I distinctly remember our WRs pretty much having their way with him when we played them last year. I've seen Revis look really good (like he did in '09) but this past year he didn't look particularly dominant at all to me. Lots of WRs had big games against him this past year.

Revis earned a lot of street cred for his '09 season but didn't repeat his dominance in '10. I want to see if he can be great again in '11 before I crown him. Champ has consistency on his side. He's never failed to produce when he wasn't injured and always bounced back with great games after he has a bad one - the sign of a true all-pro.

Canmore
07-11-2011, 07:13 PM
You say that (about Revis), but I distinctly remember our WRs pretty much having their way with him when we played them last year. I've seen Revis look really good (like he did in '09) but this past year he didn't look particularly dominant at all to me. Lots of WRs had big games against him this past year.

Revis earned a lot of street cred for his '09 season but didn't repeat his dominance in '10. I want to see if he can be great again in '11 before I crown him. Champ has consistency on his side. He's never failed to produce when he wasn't injured and always bounced back with great games after he has a bad one - the sign of a true all-pro.

Champ and the whole secondary would benefit from a pass rush, something we certainly didn't have in 2010. Here's hoping Doom is healthy and Miller is the real deal. Bye the way, an Ayers sighting would be welcome.

NightTerror218
07-11-2011, 07:15 PM
Champ and the whole secondary would benefit from a pass rush, something we certainly didn't have in 2010. Here's hoping doom is healthy and Miller is the real deal. Bye the way, an Ayers sighting would be welcome.

IF Ayers is going to have a break out season like a lot of experts expect to have, I could see a significant increase in out defense. No pass rush killed us. Give Manning 20 seconds in the pocket he will complete a pass. Same should go with any Pro QB.

Canmore
07-11-2011, 07:22 PM
IF Ayers is going to have a break out season like a lot of experts expect to have, I could see a significant increase in out defense. No pass rush killed us. Give Manning 20 seconds in the pocket he will complete a pass. Same should go with any Pro QB.

Our pass rush last season was so bad it was almost nonexistant, couple that with a total inability to stop the run, and you get the worst defense in the league. You can't win in this league like that. We have to improve on those two parameters or we are going to be picking in the bottom five again. :defense: