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NorCalBronco7
06-17-2011, 12:29 PM
"The fact is, I am convinced that Tim Tebow should be the starting QB for the Broncos in 2011. I don’t even think it’s a difficult decision, actually, and Tebow gives Denver the best chance to win in both the near- and long-term."




http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/why-tim-tebow-is-the-answer-at-qb

MOtorboat
06-17-2011, 12:33 PM
:popcorn:

Ravage!!!
06-17-2011, 12:45 PM
I think the "reason" he should start is simple. ----> Because we have Orton as our starter now.

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 12:49 PM
I think the "reason" he should start is simple. ----> Because we have Orton as our starter now.

I think he should start because we have invested in him, and he wont learn anything from Orton, he is not a mentor. Tebow needs to be on the field to prove to bronco nation he can be our future QB.

Davii
06-17-2011, 12:50 PM
:popcorn:

That popcorn looks good. Count me in. :pop2: :pepsi:

T.K.O.
06-17-2011, 12:52 PM
sounds great....hope he is right !:salute:

MOtorboat
06-17-2011, 12:52 PM
:pop2::

That was actually the one I was thinking about...

Ravage!!!
06-17-2011, 12:53 PM
I love this comment in his articl:


...I mention this because I’ve been publicly saying for years that Tim Tebow would be a championship QB in the NFL, and I’ve basically staked my reputation on it...

Well, there you go. HIS reputation on it!! :lol: Does this make everyone else feel all warm and comfortable as it does me?

WARHORSE
06-17-2011, 01:06 PM
I too am a believer in what Tebow can do.

His playmaking ability as a rookie was simply inspiring.

While it was easy to see how his passing game needs work, its not flaws I see, but lack of experience.

We're REALLY lucky that with the removal of McD, we were able to keep the same offense with some tweaks, because changing the offense and terminology would have hampered Tim a bit. We dont want our rookie QB having to learn a new offense in year two.

Anyway, in my opinion the thing that makes me feel confident in Tebow was watching him play with poise. No, hes not Tom Brady yet, but for a rookie I thought he looked awesome.

His eyes were digesting the field in front of him, and that will become second nature as he gets reps.

Can anyone remember Vicks first years? His playmaking ability made him win far more games than his passing skills did. Its the same with Tim, even if he doesnt have that uber elite speed that Vick does.

But the playmaking ability is there WITHOUT a doubt.

He converts third downs, and he will convert third downs even more with reps. Tim doesnt have to be Peyton. He can be a better Ben Roth.

With a running game that has a feature back, along with his running ability, his passing can be secondary and he can drive a ball controlling, clock eating offense that always ends with a score.

He will produce far more touchdowns that Orton will with reps.

Orton has far more experience than Tim, but for the same reasons Vince Young can win a game without being an elite passer, so can Tebow.

Yet Tebow is coachable......an ultra leader......an unstoppable worker.....and he has a consuming fire to win that will not be quenched.


I believe.


Let Tebow play.:salute:

SOCALORADO.
06-17-2011, 01:14 PM
Tim Tebow never say’s anything tastes like chicken… Not even chicken.

jhns
06-17-2011, 01:26 PM
Tebow should be the starter next year because he comletely outplayed Orton. Why not give him a chance to see if that continues?

WARHORSE
06-17-2011, 02:48 PM
Tim Tebow never say’s anything tastes like chicken… Not even chicken.


As a young boy in the Phillipines, Tim Tebow used to chase down chickens with his hands tied behind his back.


His father would say, "Teeth only son.....go get em."




Thats where he got that.:coffee:

Tned
06-17-2011, 03:02 PM
When we were down and Tebow was on the field, it felt like we had a chance to come back. Not so with Orton.

rationalfan
06-17-2011, 03:27 PM
the article made me think this: so many people are focused on what tebow can't do they overlook what he can do.

not an original thought - at all.

but it prompted this thought pattern.

if we focused only on what a player can't do:
terrell davis would have been a career backup.
ed maccaffrey would have been a practice squad player at best.
shannon sharpe would have been an oversized, slow wideout.
karl mecklenberg would have never had a pro career.
and so on, and so on.

let's look at what tebow can do to help us win. nothing more. don't define him as a quarterback with limitations, define him as a player with attributes.

then pray that he's as good as we all hope he is.

MileHighCrew
06-17-2011, 03:30 PM
Because he is the best we have, not sure if that is a good statement about teh QB situation but I think it is true

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 04:02 PM
I liked his overall analysis but there are couple of things I think he's wrong about. You don't see Brady, Brees and before them Montana throw deep outs and deep combacks because they don't have that kind of arm strength or velosity. What they can do is throw it straight down the field with right amount of air under the ball. Between those three quarterbacks they have eight championships so quarterback doesn't have to have elite arm strength to be an elite quarterback. It's great if a quarterback has the kind of velocity and arm strength to throw those deep outs and comebacks because it gives an offense two more ways to attack defense.

Second, I think he completely out of his mind to think Tebow should carry the ball 160 freakin times for the year. So what he weighs 240 lbs the extra hits will take their toll and even if doesn't get injured per se he would wear down. If Tebow is going to be elite quarterback, a championship quarterback his arm has to be his bread and butter not feet. 40 to 50 carries mostly off of scrambles will suffice.

I do agree with him that Tebow's intangibles will help to succeed. I also agree if there is true competition for being the starting quarterback I wouldn't bet against him beating out Orton.

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 04:07 PM
I liked his overall analysis but there are couple of things I think he's wrong about. You don't see Brady, Brees and before them Montana throw deep outs and deep combacks because they don't have that kind of arm strength or velosity. What they can do is throw it straight down the field with right amount of air under the ball. Between those three quarterbacks they have eight championships so quarterback doesn't have to have elite arm strength to be an elite quarterback. It's great if a quarterback has the kind of velocity and arm strength to throw those deep outs and comebacks because it gives an offense two more ways to attack defense.

Second, I think he completely out of his mind to think Tebow should carry the ball 160 freakin times for the year. So what he weighs 240 lbs the extra hits will take their toll and even if doesn't get injured per se he would wear down. If Tebow is going to be elite quarterback, a championship quarterback his arm has to be his bread and butter not feet. 40 to 50 carries mostly off of scrambles will suffice.

I do agree with him that Tebow's intangibles will help to succeed. I also agree if there is true competition for being the starting quarterback I wouldn't bet against him beating out Orton.


You can look at how Tebow has progressed, during the preseason he did what he did in college, use power to plow over people, the last 3 starts of the season he ran out of bounds and avoided the hits when he could, not on his 30 yrd run of when he is running for a TD, but he has changed part of his game already.

nevcraw
06-17-2011, 05:45 PM
Did anyone read the reader coments?

LarryB has to be topscribe.. The unabashed Orton defense + there was an identical (to here) mention of Orton's stellar stats "and then the rib injury"..

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 05:59 PM
Did anyone read the reader coments?

LarryB has to be topscribe.. The unabashed Orton defense + there was an identical (to here) mention of Orton's stellar stats "and then the rib injury"..

hahahaha it does sound like him.

tomjonesrocks
06-17-2011, 06:00 PM
I'd have liked the article more if he hadn't at the same time said he thought Orton is as good as Cutler. He's not--and it's not close.

BroncoJoe
06-17-2011, 06:04 PM
Did anyone read the reader coments?

LarryB has to be topscribe.. The unabashed Orton defense + there was an identical (to here) mention of Orton's stellar stats "and then the rib injury"..

Hmmmmmmmmm.

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 06:06 PM
You can look at how Tebow has progressed, during the preseason he did what he did in college, use power to plow over people, the last 3 starts of the season he ran out of bounds and avoided the hits when he could, not on his 30 yrd run of when he is running for a TD, but he has changed part of his game already.

Yes on a couple of scrambles but to make him a major cog in the running game I think would be a mistake and that's what writer is suggesting.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-17-2011, 06:08 PM
Did anyone read the reader coments?

LarryB has to be topscribe.. The unabashed Orton defense + there was an identical (to here) mention of Orton's stellar stats "and then the rib injury"..

To answer your question, yes. That's the top we know and love. Notice how he calls out every person who left a derogatory comment about Orton by name and disputes it? The penmanship is unmistakable, as are the matching tights and cape. There is no doubt that Orton Defender is patrolling the internet bringing law and order to the lawless...

topscribe
06-17-2011, 06:12 PM
Did anyone read the reader coments?

LarryB has to be topscribe.. The unabashed Orton defense + there was an identical (to here) mention of Orton's stellar stats "and then the rib injury"..

Good catch. Just because I stopped my debate over here doesn't mean I have
everywhere. Most of them tend to discuss things at a bit higher level than a few
over here do. And I go way back with Ted Bartlett, Doc Bear, and a few of
those guys. We email and such . . .

-----

topscribe
06-17-2011, 06:27 PM
To answer your question, yes. That's the top we know and love. Notice how he calls out every person who left a derogatory comment about Orton by name and disputes it? The penmanship is unmistakable, as are the matching tights and cape. There is no doubt that Orton Defender is patrolling the internet bringing law and order to the lawless...

I told you I've been doing battle on three or four fronts.

Didn't I tell you that? :D

-----

nevcraw
06-17-2011, 06:29 PM
Just because I stopped my debate over here doesn't mean I have
everywhere. Most of them tend to discuss things at a bit higher level than a few over here do.
-----

thanks for slumming it for a bit with us Non-


166

topscribe
06-17-2011, 06:35 PM
thanks for slumming it for a bit with us Non-


166

I never considered you as one of those "few," Nev . . .

-----

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 06:35 PM
thanks for slumming it for a bit with us Non-


166


Translation- you guys are too dumb to give me a real debate and dont understand what I type when I put you all down

nevcraw
06-17-2011, 06:46 PM
crap I cant even figure out how to post a picture properly..

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 06:53 PM
crap I cant even figure out how to post a picture properly..

That's because you're not a franchise poster like Top is. :D

Shananahan
06-17-2011, 07:01 PM
Yes on a couple of scrambles but to make him a major cog in the running game I think would be a mistake and that's what writer is suggesting.
Agreed. Ten carries or so per game seems like a bit much, and wouldn't be worth it if he ended up injured. On the other hand, I think you need to let him run enough that the defense is constantly aware of the threat. So yeah, maybe half that number? Bring on the bootleg.

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 07:08 PM
Agreed. Ten carries or so per game seems like a bit much, and wouldn't be worth it if he ended up injured. On the other hand, I think you need to let him run enough that the defense is constantly aware of the threat. So yeah, maybe half that number? Bring on the bootleg.

I can see 2 QB draws and maybe 2-4 scrambles per game.

topscribe
06-17-2011, 07:21 PM
crap I cant even figure out how to post a picture properly..

I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.



(Check your MHS.)



-----

topscribe
06-17-2011, 07:23 PM
That's because you're not a franchise poster like Top is. :D

That's up to the Forums. If they say I'm one, then I'm one. :D

-----

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 08:23 PM
Agreed. Ten carries or so per game seems like a bit much, and wouldn't be worth it if he ended up injured. On the other hand, I think you need to let him run enough that the defense is constantly aware of the threat. So yeah, maybe half that number? Bring on the bootleg.

I don't think he has run by design to put mobility to good use. Guys like Rogers who is very mobile quarterback that often but threat is always there. Elway ran by design at times but most of his rushing attempt were ad-li bed. What made his running more effective was the fact that teams knew he trusted his arm more to make the big plays. Imo if Tebow is going to become a great quarterback it will be because of his arm.

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 08:37 PM
That's up to the Forums. If they say I'm one, then I'm one. :D

-----

I've analyzed thousands upon thousands of your posts of your posts and there is no doubt you're a franchise poster. Hell you may even end up the Pro Poster Hall of Fame if can avoid serious injury. :beer:

OrangeHoof
06-17-2011, 08:44 PM
We'll never know if Tebow is a superstar or a pretender unless he's given a sustained chance to play. Three games during garbage time just isn't enough.

LordTrychon
06-17-2011, 08:51 PM
I've analyzed thousands upon thousands of your posts of your posts and there is no doubt you're a franchise poster. Hell you may even end up the Pro Poster Hall of Fame if can avoid serious injury.

Does that include pulling his... nevermind.

topscribe
06-17-2011, 09:14 PM
We'll never know if Tebow is a superstar or a pretender unless he's given a sustained chance to play. Three games during garbage time just isn't enough.

Who's Tebow?

This is about whether I'm a franchise poster . . . :focus:

-----

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 09:28 PM
Does that include pulling his... nevermind.

If pulls his....nevermind he could end up with a year long susupension. But could still have a hall of fame career.

topscribe
06-17-2011, 09:35 PM
I just saw the humility doctor.

He said to take a couple beatings and call him in the morning.



Goodnight, all. Cya in a day or two! :wave:



-----

Shananahan
06-17-2011, 09:41 PM
Does that include pulling his... nevermind.
Apparently not:


He said to take a couple beatings and call him in the morning.

WARHORSE
06-17-2011, 11:12 PM
Let me remind some people: Orton under center......third and six or more.



May as well punt it on third, you may get the ball back sooner.:coffee:

Canmore
06-17-2011, 11:17 PM
Let me remind some people: Orton under center......third and six or more.



May as well punt it on third, you may get the ball back sooner.:coffee:

With the defense we fielded? Lol

WARHORSE
06-18-2011, 12:21 AM
With the defense we fielded? LOL



Think about it.........slowly............slowly............... lightbulb?



:lol:;)

Lonestar
06-18-2011, 08:40 AM
Does anyone really think that those last three games were a fluke. He did sell because the defenses did not have the book on him yet.

Once that happens he just might have stuff taken away that made him so awesome.

We all know he has weaknesses and in the NFL he can't get away with them like he could in colege.

I believe that when coaches and scouts say he needed a few years to be ready for the game that did not mean 3 games.

Can he consistently outplay Orton? Is it good/right to throw him to the wolves to early?
I think I'll let the guys that have seen them and the new HC make this decisions.

Would I like to see him play absolutely but not Before he is ready.

TXBRONC
06-18-2011, 08:55 AM
Elway played in 10 games as a rookie so I would guess teams had the book on him yet the following seasons he won 12 games as a starter.

BroncoJoe
06-18-2011, 09:05 AM
Does anyone really think that those last three games were a fluke. He did sell because the defenses did not have the book on him yet.

Call me stupid, but exactly how do you "plan" against improvisation?

Ravage!!!
06-18-2011, 10:19 AM
Early? Yes... he's ready to throw to the "wolves." He wouldn't be subjugated to the canines any faster than most rookie QBs. Elway has stated that the FASTEST way to learn is to "be thrown to the wolves"... and I don't see a reason why Tebow should be any different.

He can sit and sit and sit, and STILL not learn until he's actually on the field. Do I expect him to make the same decisions that a 7 year vet is going to make? Do I really think he's going to "dominate" the NFL? Helllll No.

Tebow is not going to be "all world" on the NFL field, and he's not going to make veteran decisions. So what? Give the fans something to root for, and something to hope for.

Ravage!!!
06-18-2011, 10:20 AM
Call me stupid, but exactly how do you "plan" against improvisation?

Same way they completely shut down Mike Vick the second half of the season. Tebow isn't a very good passer, and stopping his strengths and forcing him towards his weaknesses is how. Same way they have with Vince Young.

BroncoStud
06-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I told you I've been doing battle on three or four fronts.

Didn't I tell you that? :D

-----

You actually take your time ad go to message boards all over the net and defend Orton's honor? :laugh:

:shocked:

BroncoStud
06-18-2011, 11:27 AM
Does anyone really think that those last three games were a fluke. He did sell because the defenses did not have the book on him yet.

Once that happens he just might have stuff taken away that made him so awesome.

We all know he has weaknesses and in the NFL he can't get away with them like he could in colege.

I believe that when coaches and scouts say he needed a few years to be ready for the game that did not mean 3 games.

Can he consistently outplay Orton? Is it good/right to throw him to the wolves to early?
I think I'll let the guys that have seen them and the new HC make this decisions.

Would I like to see him play absolutely but not Before he is ready.

Tebow won't get experience unless he sees the field. Denver needs to KNOW if he is the answer or not, QB is far too important to spend 5 years screwing around with. Get him on the field, see if he can make it or not, and then proceed into the future.

Ravage!!!
06-18-2011, 12:25 PM
You actually take your time ad go to message boards all over the net and defend Orton's honor? :laugh:

:shocked:

There is only TWO people that will actually defend Orton to this degree. Orton, and top. Not even Kyle's mother has as much faith.

TXBRONC
06-18-2011, 01:01 PM
Call me stupid, but exactly how do you "plan" against improvisation?

:whoknows:

TXBRONC
06-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Early? Yes... he's ready to throw to the "wolves." He wouldn't be subjugated to the canines any faster than most rookie QBs. Elway has stated that the FASTEST way to learn is to "be thrown to the wolves"... and I don't see a reason why Tebow should be any different.

He can sit and sit and sit, and STILL not learn until he's actually on the field. Do I expect him to make the same decisions that a 7 year vet is going to make? Do I really think he's going to "dominate" the NFL? Helllll No.

Tebow is not going to be "all world" on the NFL field, and he's not going to make veteran decisions. So what? Give the fans something to root for, and something to hope for.

He need to sit until he has more experience. :confused:

Bullgator
06-18-2011, 01:50 PM
Same way they completely shut down Mike Vick the second half of the season. Tebow isn't a very good passer, and stopping his strengths and forcing him towards his weaknesses is how. Same way they have with Vince Young.

Contrary to popular belief Tebow is a very good passer. His delivery looks weird and elongated but make no mistake, the boy can throw. Don't forget throwing for 88 TDs as a 3 year starter is exceptional at any level. Was that in college? Sure it was in the SEC. but Sam Bradford is the lock right? you know how many TDs He threw for? 88... I really think we all just regurgitate what we hear from ESPN. TT is an underrated passer.

Its not his arm strength, he has plenty. Its not an accuracy issue, He puts the ball where is needs to be, may not be pretty, but its there. not as good as Brady or Manning or 8 others in the league but hes plenty accurate to be successful.

NFL Experience is a problem... but they only way you get any of that is snaps.

And he doesnt hold the ball at his hip anymore either. Not that that really mattered... hes always moving shifting with the ball in the pocket or rolling out if there is any pressure... the kid is smart and savy there is a reason he only threw for 16 ints his whole college career and even more impressive he only fumbled twice that I can recall. Everyone thinking he was going to be a fumble machine because of his motion is just dead wrong.

The only problem he has with his passing A) its an ugly motion and B) its a bit slower, giving the secondary time to adjust.

But Tim's style of play allows for bigger windows of oppertunity as well... the defense is dragged from their lanes because they have to roll out with Tebow or now the saftie cheated a lil too much stacking the run the run and so on... The microsecond that he loses in his slow release, he makes up for many times over with his style of play. Usually the receivers open or he doesn't throw at all.

Dont get me wrong there are better passers in the NFL. But Tim's a good passer.

You ready for the official BG prediction? Get ready to rip me to shreds.

Passing: 60% comp 3500+ yards 220 ypg 24 TDs 10 ints
Rushing: 720 yards 12 TDs

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 03:21 PM
Passing: 60% comp 3500+ yards 220 ypg 24 TDs 10 ints
Rushing: 720 yards 12 TDs

Fox's offenses in Carolina threw the ball an average of 468 times per year. Say Tebow got 95 percent of those passes (assume Quinn throws five percent, for whatever reason) that's 445 attempts for Tebow. If he was a 60 percent passer, he'd complete 267 passes, and based on his averages from the three games he played, 8 YPA, 6.1 TD% and 3.7 INT%, he would be 267 for 445, 3,557, 27 TDs and 17 INTs.

Let's say he regresses on those stats to those of what Sam Bradford did this past year, 3.1 TD% and 2.5 INT% with a 60 percent completion percentage (Bradford had 590 attempts...I don't see Tebow throwing it 590 attempts, so we'll stick with the 445 attempts)...14 TDs, 11 INT, 2,668 yards.

I think that would be a decent year from Tebow.

Shananahan
06-18-2011, 03:26 PM
Common sense and logic don't belong anywhere near Tebow predictions.

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 03:29 PM
Common sense and logic don't belong anywhere near Tebow predictions.

Well, the one I didn't want to throw out there is his YPC in those three games last year..., with 16...he'd throw well over 4,000 yards in just 267 completions...:coffee:

Ravage!!!
06-18-2011, 04:12 PM
Contrary to popular belief Tebow is a very good passer.

Not from what I've seen, he's not. I don't care about "popular belief." I go by the "what my eyes tell me when watching him"... and when I watch him, I do NOT see a good passer. He hasn't shown it, yet, in the NFL as far as I'm concerned. I hope he does, it would be great for the Broncos. But as of right now, I don't see him being a good passer, and one that really is not good in the pocket. Thats worrisome for the NFL.

As for the rest of your post, I honestly saw more fluff and homerism than anything fact. I like the optimism, and I know you have a big red-one for Tebow... but I have to see much more to believe that he's the superman you believe him to be.

I'm not even going to waste my time with your prediction.

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Not from what I've seen, he's not. I don't care about "popular belief." I go by the "what my eyes tell me when watching him"... and when I watch him, I do NOT see a good passer. He hasn't shown it, yet, in the NFL as far as I'm concerned. I hope he does, it would be great for the Broncos. But as of right now, I don't see him being a good passer, and one that really is not good in the pocket. Thats worrisome for the NFL.

Usually popular belief has basis in truth. People don't make up their "beliefs" about football players blindly, and like Ravage here...they make educated opinions by watching them and then form their "beliefs." So, usually the popular belief is, essentially true.

Ravage!!!
06-18-2011, 04:21 PM
Usually popular belief has basis in truth. People don't make up their "beliefs" about football players blindly, and like Ravage here...they make educated opinions by watching them and then form their "beliefs." So, usually the popular belief is, essentially true.

Thats a good point. Generally speaking there is a reason why the opinion is a popular one.

I guess I should restate and say that I don't have that particular opinion based on what I heard 'pre-draft' about him from all the critics/scouts. I'm stating this based on what I've seen of him on the field. His footwork is really really bad. His accuracy was not impressive to me.

But hey. There is always room/hope for improvment, and all improvement is good for the Broncos. Although I know Kyle is the better passer, and more veteran QB... I still want to see Tebow behind center this year.

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 04:22 PM
Thats a good point. Generally speaking there is a reason why the opinion is a popular one.

I guess I should restate and say that I don't have that particular opinion based on what I heard 'pre-draft' about him from all the critics/scouts. I'm stating this based on what I've seen of him on the field. His footwork is really really bad. His accuracy was not impressive to me.

But hey. There is always room/hope for improvment, and all improvement is good for the Broncos. Although I know Kyle is the better passer, and more veteran QB... I still want to see Tebow behind center this year.

And...ironically, that's exactly what the scouts said about him pre-draft...:elefant:

Ravage!!!
06-18-2011, 04:24 PM
And...ironically, that's exactly what the scouts said about him pre-draft...:elefant:

I guess I should become a scout!! :D

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 04:26 PM
General consensus...accurate deep ball, not accurate on intermediate routes...bad footwork...long throwing motion and holds the ball too low.

He's improved on two of those things, but that has not, so far, resulted in better accuracy.

BroncoJoe
06-18-2011, 04:49 PM
Same way they completely shut down Mike Vick the second half of the season. Tebow isn't a very good passer, and stopping his strengths and forcing him towards his weaknesses is how. Same way they have with Vince Young.

I'll confess to not having watched many Eagles' games, but looking at the stats, I'm not sure what you're referring to re: Vick. His rushing?

Please, on the Vince Young comment.

Tebow is much more like Steve Young than either of those two. Time will tell in reference to his accuracy.

chazoe60
06-18-2011, 04:58 PM
I think Tebow will end up being very good but I also think he's going to be much more about final results than stats. In other words I think he'll win us a bunch of games but won't be a stat monster. I think his stats will look something like this usually:

55% comp 3000-3500 yards 18-25 TDs passing 12-15 ints I know this is broad buy I'm saying what I think he'll get in a typical year for him.

Here is where he shows his elite numbers for a QB. 450-600 yards rushing and 8-12 TDs.

Those are the kinds of numbers he'll put up but I also believe he'll keep us in almost every game and win the majority of the ones we have chances to win at the end. There's some about this kid when the game is on the line.

It will take a leap of faith because Tebow will never look or play conventionally, but I for one believe we will reap many benefits if EFEX takes that leap.

Shananahan
06-18-2011, 05:11 PM
accurate deep ball
I keep telling people (mostly friends who give me a hard time about the guy) this, but it's one of his more underrated qualities. He has a lot of work to do before he can become a complete passing QB, and more than likely won't ever get there, but his deep ball really impressed me last year and in highlights from college.

It would be a welcome change to see a receiver running wide-open down the field not have to stop and return for the pass or wait for the jump ball.

Bullgator
06-18-2011, 05:55 PM
Fox's offenses in Carolina threw the ball an average of 468 times per year. Say Tebow got 95 percent of those passes (assume Quinn throws five percent, for whatever reason) that's 445 attempts for Tebow. If he was a 60 percent passer, he'd complete 267 passes, and based on his averages from the three games he played, 8 YPA, 6.1 TD% and 3.7 INT%, he would be 267 for 445, 3,557, 27 TDs and 17 INTs.

Let's say he regresses on those stats to those of what Sam Bradford did this past year, 3.1 TD% and 2.5 INT% with a 60 percent completion percentage (Bradford had 590 attempts...I don't see Tebow throwing it 590 attempts, so we'll stick with the 445 attempts)...14 TDs, 11 INT, 2,668 yards.

I think that would be a decent year from Tebow.

If you think thats a decent year for Teebs then your going to spank your pickle when he doubles the TDs you have him chalked up for. Not to mention the rushing TDs

atwater27
06-18-2011, 05:57 PM
If you think thats a decent year for Teebs then your going to spank your pickle when he doubles the TDs and halves the ints you have him chalked up for.

Stop playing Madden on rookie. How many yards you rush for, 2500?:tsk:

Bullgator
06-18-2011, 05:59 PM
Yall should know when all this shit comes to pass, Ill try my best not to gloat...

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 05:59 PM
If you think thats a decent year for Teebs then your going to spank your pickle when he doubles the TDs you have him chalked up for. Not to mention the rushing TDs

You're delusional. That's OK. I hope you're right, but history and reality says its closer to those projections than your projections.

MOtorboat
06-18-2011, 06:00 PM
Yall should know when all this shit comes to pass, Ill try my best not to gloat...

Do you know anyone who goes by the moniker Casino?

Bullgator
06-18-2011, 06:17 PM
Do you know anyone who goes by the moniker Casino?

You got the wrong guy.

Canmore
06-18-2011, 06:21 PM
You're delusional. That's OK. I hope you're right, but history and reality says its closer to those projections than your projections.

I agree but there isn't anyone here that wouldn't love you to be citing this thread at the end of the year going "I told you so!".

Shananahan
06-18-2011, 06:58 PM
Tebow probably wouldn't love that, though. Pride is a sin.

BroncoStud
06-18-2011, 09:09 PM
There is only TWO people that will actually defend Orton to this degree. Orton, and top. Not even Kyle's mother has as much faith.

Yeah, there's something just not "ok" with obsession to that level... :lol:

TXBRONC
06-19-2011, 08:05 AM
Yall should know when all this shit comes to pass, Ill try my best not to gloat...

And if doesn't come to pass I wonder if you'll stick around or bail.

Lonestar
06-19-2011, 08:18 AM
Call me stupid, but exactly how do you "plan" against improvisation?
Spy the QB like they did with Elway. He was the master at improvising. That is just one way.

Finding his weakness And exploiting them. So far they DCs have almost zero to look at. How did PIT stop us in the Afccg. They contained Jake from the outside. Forced him to play from the pocket.

Trust me the great DCs will get a book on him.

topscribe
06-19-2011, 08:36 AM
Spy the QB like they did with Elway. He was the master at improvising. That is just one way.

Finding his weakness And exploiting them. So far they DCs have almost zero to look at. How did PIT stop us in the Afccg. They contained Jake from the outside. Forced him to play from the pocket.

Trust me the great DCs will get a book on him.

Of course, they will. I have seen that happen before: An unfamiliar QB comes
in and lights it up, then a few games later they're putting the clamps on him.
As you said, they get a book on him, and then he's back in the real world, and
that is when his work really begins. Then the QB claws his way back up
through experience, or he tanks.

-----

BroncoStud
06-19-2011, 08:41 AM
Spy the QB like they did with Elway. He was the master at improvising. That is just one way.

Finding his weakness And exploiting them. So far they DCs have almost zero to look at. How did PIT stop us in the Afccg. They contained Jake from the outside. Forced him to play from the pocket.

Trust me the great DCs will get a book on him.

I think it's obvious that Jake never took the time to TRULY become an elite NFL QB. He was fun as hell to watch but you can't sell anyone on the fact that he absorbed 1/10th of the football that Tebow has.

EVERY QB has a weakness, every single one. There will always be coordinators who seem to defend certain players or teams better than others, that's just the nature of the beast. If Tebow can be successful MOST of the time then he has a chance.

As Elway said, it will come down to whether or not Tebow learns to be a PASSER from the pocket. If he does the sky is the limit for him, if he does not, he will struggle against decent defenses.

broncofaninfla
06-19-2011, 09:10 AM
The author is a Gator fan so he's still riding that high there BUT I do agree with what he is saying. I live in Florida and my favorite college team is Florida State. I hate the Gators but loved to watch Tebow play. No emotional ties to Tebow here, based on his colle career and especially off of what I saw in the last three games I think Tebow is going to win the job.

MOtorboat
06-19-2011, 09:33 AM
Interesting, whoever the radio guys were this morning...think Orton is going to Seattle, think Tebow isn't the long-term quarterback, either.

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 09:43 AM
Spy the QB like they did with Elway. He was the master at improvising. That is just one way.

Finding his weakness And exploiting them. So far they DCs have almost zero to look at. How did PIT stop us in the Afccg. They contained Jake from the outside. Forced him to play from the pocket.

Trust me the great DCs will get a book on him.

:confused:

Lonestar
06-19-2011, 10:14 AM
I think it's obvious that Jake never took the time to TRULY become an elite NFL QB. He was fun as hell to watch but you can't sell anyone on the fact that he absorbed 1/10th of the football that Tebow has.

EVERY QB has a weakness. .

Yes TEbow in his first three games has learned more about qb that Jake did in his years starting in the NFL. As a fact as you put it 90% more.

Thousand of comedians out if work and your cracking jokes.

Lonestar
06-19-2011, 10:18 AM
:confused:
What is to be confused about certain teams owned John just as once Jake was contained his game was not as good as it was.

Just a matter of time

BroncoStud
06-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Yes TEbow in his first three games has learned more about qb that Jake did in his years starting in the NFL. As a fact as you put it 90% more.

Thousand of comedians out if work and your cracking jokes.

I didn't say Tebow is more learned than Jake, I said what held Jake back from being elite was his lack of interest in reading defenses and truly becoming a coach on the field. He had all the physical tools one needs to succeed, I just don't think he wanted to play the way his coaches wanted him to and football wasn't his love. Not his style.

Tebow is pretty obviously living football, I have no doubt he'll put in the time and study required to succeed at any level. All that aside, if he doesn't learn to be a pocket passer then it won't matter. You have to be able to pass from the pocket and use your legs as a means of buying time and escape to succeed in the NFL. You can't be run-FIRST. It took Vick years to figure that out and he was nothing short of amazing this year because he became pass-FIRST, run-second.

BroncoStud
06-19-2011, 10:29 AM
What is to be confused about certain teams owned John just as once Jake was contained his game was not as good as it was.

Just a matter of time

Elway was spied because he was the only real offensive threat Denver had, not because he was a run-first QB. Elway came out of college a pocket-passing QB who could run. Not some Wing-T option QB who struggled throwing the football. :laugh:

MOtorboat
06-19-2011, 10:41 AM
Yes TEbow in his first three games has learned more about qb that Jake did in his years starting in the NFL. As a fact as you put it 90% more.

Thousand of comedians out if work and your cracking jokes.

LOL. I think you were joking here, but...if you weren't, LOL.

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 10:42 AM
What is to be confused about certain teams owned John just as once Jake was contained his game was not as good as it was.

Just a matter of time

:confused:

I believe there is only one or two teams in the entire NFL that Elway did not have a winning record against. I can't find it right now, but will.

MOtorboat
06-19-2011, 10:44 AM
:confused:

I believe there is only one or two teams in the entire NFL that Elway did not have a winning record against. I can't find it right now, but will.

He means there were certain teams (and I'm not remembering who used to try this, but...) that would assign a linebacker to "spy" on Elway, and if Elway broke contain, his job was to go after Elway. The risk is that it eliminates a linebacker from coverage, or blitzing. If memory serves, it didn't work well for teams, because Elway was that good.

I just don't think he's conveying his point very effectively.

MOtorboat
06-19-2011, 10:47 AM
And Joe...this should help you out.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/splits/

Raiders, Dolphins, Giants and Eagles were the four teams he had a losing record against.
13-15 against the Raiders
0-2 against the Dolphins
1-3 against the Giants
1-4 against the Eagles

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 10:52 AM
And Joe...this should help you out.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/splits/

Raiders, Dolphins, Giants and Eagles were the four teams he had a losing record against.
13-15 against the Raiders
0-2 against the Dolphins
1-3 against the Giants
1-4 against the Eagles

Thanks - I knew I saw that somewhere.

I understand what JR was trying to say, but frankly to use Elway as an example is kind of, well, silly.

Besides - as you stated above - that kind of defense tactic really isn't that effective.

MOtorboat
06-19-2011, 11:03 AM
Thanks - I knew I saw that somewhere.

I understand what JR was trying to say, but frankly to use Elway as an example is kind of, well, silly.

Besides - as you stated above - that kind of defense tactic really isn't that effective.

It might be more effective against Tebow, but typically the linebacker assigned to the quarterback isn't as athletic, and the offensive player always has the advantage in any open field situation, especially a 240-pound ball carrier.

Its more likely that teams will let him scramble, and drop back into complex coverage schemes that will confuse him into throwing interceptions.

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 11:06 AM
It might be more effective against Tebow, but typically the linebacker assigned to the quarterback isn't as athletic, and the offensive player always has the advantage in any open field situation, especially a 240-pound ball carrier.

Its more likely that teams will let him scramble, and drop back into complex coverage schemes that will confuse him into throwing interceptions.

FAR more likely. That worked the best against John as well.

topscribe
06-19-2011, 11:11 AM
:confused:

I believe there is only one or two teams in the entire NFL that Elway did not have a winning record against. I can't find it right now, but will.

I think LS was talking about John's first couple years. After that spell, nobody
owned him. I think LS would tell you that . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 11:15 AM
I think LS was talking about John's first couple years. After that spell, nobody
owned him. I think LS would tell you that . . .

-----

Either way, we'll just agree to disagree. John's first year was a mess, mainly because he couldn't see where the blitzer was coming from, not because of a "spy". In his 2nd year he went 12-2.

topscribe
06-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Either way, we'll just agree to disagree. John's first year was a mess, mainly because he couldn't see where the blitzer was coming from, not because of a "spy". In his 2nd year he went 12-2.

Why does it escape so many people that football is a TEAM game? In Elway's
second year, his TEAM went 12-2. Yes, Elway's talent came through, and he
had a lot to do with it. But I remember it quite well (so does LS): I was 39 years
old. Elway went through hell that year. Yes, he fought his way through it with
flying colors, but it took an Elway to beat what the DCs had in store for him.

I do not think Tebow is another Elway . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Why does it escape so many people that football is a TEAM game? In Elway's
second year, his TEAM went 12-2. Yes, Elway's talent came through, and he
had a lot to do with it. But I remember it quite well (so does LS): I was 39 years
old. Elway went through hell that year. Yes, he fought his way through it with
flying colors, but it took an Elway to beat what the DCs had in store for him.

I do not think Tebow is another Elway . . .

-----

You and LS are not the only ones who remember.

topscribe
06-19-2011, 11:23 AM
You and LS are not the only ones who remember.

That's true. How old are you, BTW?

-----

BroncoJoe
06-19-2011, 11:31 AM
That's true. How old are you, BTW?

-----

Let's put it this way, I wasn't at their first ever game. I was born a couple years later at St. Anthony's hospital which is scheduled for demolition. After nearly 50 years, they have decided the likelyhood of someone as special as me being born there isn't going to happen again...

topscribe
06-19-2011, 11:34 AM
Let's put it this way, I wasn't at their first ever game. I was born a couple years later at St. Anthony's hospital which is scheduled for demolition.

Well, that's neither here nor there. The bottom line is, you and LS are both
right in your own respects. Elway had a rough start, as virtually all rookies do.
And opposing DCs had a lot to do with that. But once he got to rolling, nobody
owned John Elway. They might have owned the rest of the team, but they
didn't own him.

-----

Lonestar
06-19-2011, 05:59 PM
I didn't say Tebow is more learned than Jake, I said what held Jake back from being elite was his lack of interest in reading defenses and truly becoming a coach on the field. He had all the physical tools one needs to succeed, I just don't think he wanted to play the way his coaches wanted him to and football wasn't his love. Not his style.

Tebow is pretty obviously living football, I have no doubt he'll put in the time and study required to succeed at any level. All that aside, if he doesn't learn to be a pocket passer then it won't matter. You have to be able to pass from the pocket and use your legs as a means of buying time and escape to succeed in the NFL. You can't be run-FIRST. It took Vick years to figure that out and he was nothing short of amazing this year because he became pass-FIRST, run-second.

what part if this did you not say.
"but you can't sell anyone on the fact that he absorbed 1/10th of the football that Tebow has."
Sorry but that says to me and anyone else not named BS that Jake knew less after his waht 11 years in the NFL than TEbow does after 3 games and 13 settling on the bench.

Sounds to me that either you have a strong case of hornies for tebow or you dislike Jake.

Now please tell me

Lonestar
06-19-2011, 06:08 PM
[QUOTE=topscribe;1284233]I think LS was talking about John's first couple years. After that spell, nobody
owned him. I think LS would tell you that . . .

-----[/QUOTE. Of a

There were teams he really struggled against one was KC. But then they had a one hell of a LB/de also.

The NFC teams beat the hell out of him especially in th super bowls pre TD.

The more physical Dl causes him grief. I would not say owned but use the term. Caused him to play a different style of game against them. They Tom stuff away from hom just like they do others QBs and will take away from TEbow.

BroncoStud
06-19-2011, 06:45 PM
what part if this did you not say.
"but you can't sell anyone on the fact that he absorbed 1/10th of the football that Tebow has."
Sorry but that says to me and anyone else not named BS that Jake knew less after his waht 11 years in the NFL than TEbow does after 3 games and 13 settling on the bench.

Sounds to me that either you have a strong case of hornies for tebow or you dislike Jake.

Now please tell me

I was speaking proportionally to their experience. I have ZERO doubt that a 2nd year Tim Tebow is light years ahead of a 2nd year Jake Plummer. Clearly since Jake was in his 30's and started a LOT of games by the time he retired, he knew more, but apples to apples Tim is hands down a better student of the game. Jake was Jake, I loved the dude as our QB, but he never fully learned how to read defenses mostly probably because he just wasn't passionate about football and didn't want to. He certainly could have.

So keep on distorting dude, it's what you do best. I have no clue if Tebow will be a good QB or not but I know if he doesn't become on it won't be for lack of effort on his part.

Lonestar
06-20-2011, 02:19 AM
Thanks FOR clarifying what you actually meant.

Now that was not so hArd was it.

Lonestar
06-20-2011, 02:23 AM
FWIW. IIRC in Jakes second year he led the cardinals to the playoffs and a win against Dallas.

If that is the case I doubt your correct

claymore
06-20-2011, 03:52 AM
Plummer didnt throw for more TD's than INT's till his 5th year. If Tebow isnt way better than Plummer in his 2nd year we will be drafting QB early next year.

BroncoStud
06-20-2011, 08:11 AM
FWIW. IIRC in Jakes second year he led the cardinals to the playoffs and a win against Dallas.

If that is the case I doubt your correct

Jake did it on pure athleticism and guts in Arizona. He didn't become a legit QB in the NFL until Shanahan tutored him and utilized his strengths. Jake was good enough to win the Cardinals some games.

Lonestar
06-20-2011, 09:59 AM
Jake did it on pure athleticism and guts in Arizona. He didn't become a legit QB in the NFL until Shanahan tutored him and utilized his strengths. Jake was good enough to win the Cardinals some games.

So TEbow still knows more about football Than Jake did?

Lonestar
06-20-2011, 10:03 AM
Let me add after all the mighty mastermind taught Jake.
And in your minds mini mind josh taught TEbow. So he was still better?

MOtorboat
06-20-2011, 10:04 AM
Let me add after all the mighty mastermind taught Jake.
And in your minds mini mind josh taught TEbow. So he was still better?

:tsk:

BroncoJoe
06-20-2011, 10:06 AM
I don't think there's any question which QB has a stronger love for the game. That said, I would guess one of the mentioned studies, works and plays harder than the other.

CoryWinget81
06-20-2011, 10:06 AM
If he starts:

Passing: 48% - 2326 yds - 12 TD 17 INT

Rushing: 96 carries, 492 yds 7 TD

TXBRONC
06-20-2011, 10:11 AM
The author is a Gator fan so he's still riding that high there BUT I do agree with what he is saying. I live in Florida and my favorite college team is Florida State. I hate the Gators but loved to watch Tebow play. No emotional ties to Tebow here, based on his colle career and especially off of what I saw in the last three games I think Tebow is going to win the job.

I follow USC and FSU as much as a can but who plays for the Broncos is more important to me. Once a guy leaves for the pros I don't continue following them unless they're a Bronco. I like Tebow I want him to succeed but like I'm not tied to him to the point if he shouldn't make it that I would stop following the Broncos. He isn't the all in all to end all of players football will exist and be just as exciting whether he is in Denver or not.

TXBRONC
06-20-2011, 10:18 AM
He means there were certain teams (and I'm not remembering who used to try this, but...) that would assign a linebacker to "spy" on Elway, and if Elway broke contain, his job was to go after Elway. The risk is that it eliminates a linebacker from coverage, or blitzing. If memory serves, it didn't work well for teams, because Elway was that good.

I just don't think he's conveying his point very effectively.

Yeah there were a few teams that tried but wasn't done on a consistent basis.

BroncoStud
06-20-2011, 10:24 AM
So TEbow still knows more about football Than Jake did?

I would say going into his 2nd year he probably does. Jake was never accused of spending TOO much time in the filmroom or throwing during his offseasons now was he...

BroncoStud
06-20-2011, 10:25 AM
Let me add after all the mighty mastermind taught Jake.
And in your minds mini mind josh taught TEbow. So he was still better?

This just doesn't make sense. :laugh::elefant:

TXBRONC
06-20-2011, 10:39 AM
This just doesn't make sense. :laugh::elefant:

Agreed that didn't make any sense.:confused:

Lonestar
06-20-2011, 10:42 AM
I don't think there's any question which QB has a stronger love for the game. That said, I would guess one of the mentioned studies, works and plays harder than the other.

To Jake it was a game he marveled many times about how he never expected to play pro ball or that they would pay him to play it.

He was all game on Sunday. It was not till the second to last year where we went 13-3 when he sat down with Kubes before the season and studied every play and learned from it. Almost set a NFL record for the number if throws between picks.

Still had a great TD to pick ratio.

Then the next year Mikey and the new oc tried to make jake into a pocket passer. all the while not having an OL that could protect him.

Let's hope that TEbow does not get ruined the same wAy.

CoryWinget81
06-20-2011, 10:49 AM
Agreed that didn't make any sense.:confused:

By the way, Odessa, TX?

We may have had this discussion on the Mania boards, but I grew up in Odessa.

MOtorboat
06-20-2011, 11:06 AM
4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS, 33-67, 366 yards, 49.3 %, 5.46 YPA, 31 long, 1 TDs, 2 INTs, 5 sacks, 58.4 QBR

:confused:

DECEMBER, 28-69, 283 yards, 40.6 %, 4.10 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 34.9 QBR

:eek:

INDOORS, 19-41, 166 yards, 46.3 %, 4.05 YPA, 20 long, 0 TDs, 3 INTs, 1 sack, 27.1 QBR

:(

Outdoor Temp <40 F, 9-28, 117 yards, 32.1 %, 4.18 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 0 INTs, 4 sacks, 46.3 QBR

:mad:

DOWN = 3 OVERALL, 60-120, 670 yards, 50.0 %, 5.58 YPA, 34 long, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 16 sacks, 58.0 QBR

:wine:

DOWN = 3 TO GO <6, 23-48, 238 yards, 47.9 %, 4.96 YPA, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 50.5 QBR

:drinking:

DOWN = 3 TO GO 6+, 37-72, 432 yards, 51.4 %, 6.00 YPA, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 11 sacks, 63.0 QBR

:shots:

chazoe60
06-20-2011, 11:11 AM
4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS, 33-67, 366 yards, 49.3 %, 5.46 YPA, 31 long, 1 TDs, 2 INTs, 5 sacks, 58.4 QBR

:confused:

DECEMBER, 28-69, 283 yards, 40.6 %, 4.10 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 34.9 QBR

:eek:

INDOORS, 19-41, 166 yards, 46.3 %, 4.05 YPA, 20 long, 0 TDs, 3 INTs, 1 sack, 27.1 QBR

:(

Outdoor Temp <40 F, 9-28, 117 yards, 32.1 %, 4.18 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 0 INTs, 4 sacks, 46.3 QBR

:mad:

DOWN = 3 OVERALL, 60-120, 670 yards, 50.0 %, 5.58 YPA, 34 long, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 16 sacks, 58.0 QBR

:wine:

DOWN = 3 TO GO <6, 23-48, 238 yards, 47.9 %, 4.96 YPA, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 50.5 QBR

:drinking:

DOWN = 3 TO GO 6+, 37-72, 432 yards, 51.4 %, 6.00 YPA, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 11 sacks, 63.0 QBR

:shots:

Pretty much illustrates why he shouldn't even be given another chance. Time to go a different direction.

The scary part about Orton is that he is absolutely terrible at all the times when elite QBs are supposed to shine. He's like the anti-franchise QB. He honestly reminds me of the exact opposite of Elway. I really hope we never see him take another phantom sack in a Bronco uni.

MOtorboat
06-20-2011, 11:38 AM
Whoops...I put that in the wrong thread...

vandammage13
06-20-2011, 11:46 AM
4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS, 33-67, 366 yards, 49.3 %, 5.46 YPA, 31 long, 1 TDs, 2 INTs, 5 sacks, 58.4 QBR

:confused:

DECEMBER, 28-69, 283 yards, 40.6 %, 4.10 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 34.9 QBR

:eek:

INDOORS, 19-41, 166 yards, 46.3 %, 4.05 YPA, 20 long, 0 TDs, 3 INTs, 1 sack, 27.1 QBR

:(

Outdoor Temp <40 F, 9-28, 117 yards, 32.1 %, 4.18 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 0 INTs, 4 sacks, 46.3 QBR

:mad:

DOWN = 3 OVERALL, 60-120, 670 yards, 50.0 %, 5.58 YPA, 34 long, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 16 sacks, 58.0 QBR

:wine:

DOWN = 3 TO GO <6, 23-48, 238 yards, 47.9 %, 4.96 YPA, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 50.5 QBR

:drinking:

DOWN = 3 TO GO 6+, 37-72, 432 yards, 51.4 %, 6.00 YPA, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 11 sacks, 63.0 QBR

:shots:

Darn ankle injuries.....they'll get you every time.

claymore
06-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Kyle Orton led the league in 30 yard hail mary's last year guys.

claymore
06-20-2011, 11:56 AM
This just doesn't make sense. :laugh::elefant:


Agreed that didn't make any sense.:confused:

It made no sense whatsoever. Might be the worst post ever on the internet.

BroncoStud
06-20-2011, 12:18 PM
4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS, 33-67, 366 yards, 49.3 %, 5.46 YPA, 31 long, 1 TDs, 2 INTs, 5 sacks, 58.4 QBR

:confused:

DECEMBER, 28-69, 283 yards, 40.6 %, 4.10 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 34.9 QBR

:eek:

INDOORS, 19-41, 166 yards, 46.3 %, 4.05 YPA, 20 long, 0 TDs, 3 INTs, 1 sack, 27.1 QBR

:(

Outdoor Temp <40 F, 9-28, 117 yards, 32.1 %, 4.18 YPA, 28 long, 0 TD, 0 INTs, 4 sacks, 46.3 QBR

:mad:

DOWN = 3 OVERALL, 60-120, 670 yards, 50.0 %, 5.58 YPA, 34 long, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 16 sacks, 58.0 QBR

:wine:

DOWN = 3 TO GO <6, 23-48, 238 yards, 47.9 %, 4.96 YPA, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, 5 sacks, 50.5 QBR

:drinking:

DOWN = 3 TO GO 6+, 37-72, 432 yards, 51.4 %, 6.00 YPA, 1 TD, 2 INTs, 11 sacks, 63.0 QBR

:shots:

That just goes to show why Orton is a marginal NFL starter and a good BACKUP QB. He just isn't talented enough to get it done when it matters most. Good find.

topscribe
06-20-2011, 12:20 PM
It made no sense whatsoever. Might be the worst post ever on the internet.

No, Clay, this one of yours might be, just for its hyperbolic value . . . :D

-----

powderaddict
06-20-2011, 01:29 PM
Orton is the ultimate front runner.

He's great when things are going well. When the pressure is on or the play breaks down, it's pretty much over.

I want to see what Tebow can do. See if he can be the QB we all hope he can be.

Juriga72
06-20-2011, 01:53 PM
That just goes to show why Orton is a marginal NFL starter and a good BACKUP QB. He just isn't talented enough to get it done when it matters most. Good find.

Ok.... I hate Orton as our qb as much as anyone does..... THIS made me throw up yet again....

Orton's "history"....

1'st down: COMP ATT Yards TD Int
2005- 68 118 683 2 4
2007- 20 30 199 1 0
2008- 118 187 1283 7 4
2009- 115 160 1423 5 5
2010- 118 190 1582 7 1
--------------------------------------------------------------

1st dwn- 439 685 5170 22 18 86.0 QBR


2nd down-
2005 67 123 604 3 3
2007- 12 21 160 2 2
2008- 91 154 933 7 4
2009- 131 198 1328 6 4
2010- 60 120 1352 9 3
----------------------------------------------------------------
361 673 4227 27 16 76.4 QBR

3rd down-
2005- 52 120 544 4 6
2007- 11 26 119 0 0
2008- 63 124 757 4 3
2009- 84 153 933 10 3
2010- 60 120 670 3 5
-----------------------------------------------------------------
270 543 3023 21 17 66.5 QBR

NorCalBronco7
06-20-2011, 03:03 PM
Hopefully Tebows the answer, but nobody knows yet. No Qb on the Broncos has stood out as a franchise player. Until then, Tebow and the rest of the Qbs have a lot to prove. I think he has the best shot of being the future Qb in Denver in the long term but Orton in the short term (because of Fox). If Orton moves on to another team, then Tebow will start for the Broncos for at least 2 years and be considered the future. He would then have to prove hes the answer at Qb in Denver.

TXBRONC
06-20-2011, 06:11 PM
By the way, Odessa, TX?

We may have had this discussion on the Mania boards, but I grew up in Odessa.

Yep. I'm a transplant but it's my home and I love the people.

I think we had this conversation over on Mania but that was quite awhile go.

arapaho2
06-21-2011, 11:51 AM
To Jake it was a game he marveled many times about how he never expected to play pro ball or that they would pay him to play it.

He was all game on Sunday. It was not till the second to last year where we went 13-3 when he sat down with Kubes before the season and studied every play and learned from it. Almost set a NFL record for the number if throws between picks.

Still had a great TD to pick ratio.

Then the next year Mikey and the new oc tried to make jake into a pocket passer. all the while not having an OL that could protect him.

Let's hope that TEbow does not get ruined the same wAy.


im gonna take exception to this a little

for one i agree plummer was all game all in on sundays...it was the rest of the week that was the problem

in 05 we had a top defense a top 3 run game and that was a good deal of the 13-3 ...but the passing game was based upon the rollout and bootleg

in 06 the gig was up...it wasnt that shanny tried to make plummer a pocket passer...the issue was the other teams were now versed in stopping the rollout and bootleg with the plummer spies on defense
plummer had to become a pocket passer due to what the defense was doing to his bread an butter play...he couldnt

broncoFan!
06-22-2011, 06:03 PM
Orton is the ultimate front runner.

He's great when things are going well. When the pressure is on or the play breaks down, it's pretty much over.

I want to see what Tebow can do. See if he can be the QB we all hope he can be.

This. Orton's best was in 2009 when we were 6-0. Then he just went Downhill from there and we all know about the 2-8 stretch.

Ravage!!!
06-22-2011, 06:18 PM
Then the next year Mikey and the new oc tried to make jake into a pocket passer. all the while not having an OL that could protect him.

Let's hope that TEbow does not get ruined the same wAy.

Uhmm. Seems to me that the "next year" after the one he actually studied, he didn't study. That, and he got his feelings hurt because we drafted a QB.

Weird how the rookie improved scoring after starting behind that same OL that couldn't protect Jake :confused:

Also, that season didn't "ruin" Jake. That's absurd. Jake ruined Jake. Its absolutely ridiculous to even suggest that Jake was "ruined" after his 9th season in the NFL.

nevcraw
06-22-2011, 06:26 PM
what caught up to Jake were the apposing defenses. He wasn't catching anyone on the rollout anymore and his game was horrible inside the pocket.

Juriga72
06-22-2011, 08:19 PM
what caught up to Jake were the apposing defenses. He wasn't catching anyone on the rollout anymore and his game was horrible inside the pocket.

"But Jake just won...."lol

Shananahan
06-22-2011, 08:43 PM
"But Jake just won...."lol
I don't get this post. Do you think he didn't?

Also, I really don't think it was something like the defenses catching up to him or the OL not blocking, etc. The bootleg wasn't as effective towards the end, but really he just eventually started playing sloppy and reckless. He deserved to be benched that year, I think, and I love Plummer as much as possible. Say what you will about Orton folding and not having a killer instinct or whatever (and I believe there is truth to both), he sure handled having a first-round QB on the bench behind him much better than Plummer.

Tillman's death really put things into perspective for the guy re:football's importance, and he never really took well to Shanahan being so hard on him all the time. I think drafting Cutler after the kind of season Plummer had just had made him say, 'F*ck it.'

Juriga72
06-22-2011, 09:13 PM
I don't get this post. Do you think he didn't?

Also, I really don't think it was something like the defenses catching up to him or the OL not blocking, etc. The bootleg wasn't as effective towards the end, but really he just eventually started playing sloppy and reckless. He deserved to be benched that year, I think, and I love Plummer as much as possible. Say what you will about Orton folding and not having a killer instinct or whatever (and I believe there is truth to both), he sure handled having a first-round QB on the bench behind him much better than Plummer.

Tillman's death really put things into perspective for the guy re:football's importance, and he never really took well to Shanahan being so hard on him all the time. I think drafting Cutler after the kind of season Plummer had just had made him say, 'F*ck it.'

Those who put up Jake on his pedestal because "He just won" also seem to forget that Al Wilson gets hurt and Jake doesnt win anymore...... Ko-winky-dink??? not really....

Jake won more games doing less than any QB other than Orton has. Plus of course they just hate that Shanny took a kid with more talent, and replaced a tanking Jake....

Lonestar
06-22-2011, 09:16 PM
I don't get this post. Do you think he didn't ?
Tillman's death really put things into perspective for the guy re:football's importance, and he never really took well to Shanahan being so hard on him all the time. I think drafting Cutler after the kind of season Plummer had just had made him say, 'F*ck it.'

His mentor on the team was gone to HOU, they changed the scheme
From roll out to pocket passing and forgot to get blockers up front to deal with that.

Mike IMHO was
Trying to run him out if town. But knew after the greise FUBAR that he had to have the locker room behind his move.

Like you said he had his best year ever and then got the rug pulled out from under him. Not only in the Kubes to HOU, change in scheme and then jay being drafted.

Just how many members on this forum having the money he stashed away, a hot fiancé and Tillman gone just might have read the writing on the wall and done the same thing.

Juriga72
06-22-2011, 09:31 PM
Nope...

Jake just quit like the pansy he was......... Funny how people can excuse this action of quiting mid-season... yet question others when they are injured during games.

Of course personal hate will fill any vacum

Shananahan
06-22-2011, 09:40 PM
Of course personal hate will fill any vacum
Seems like you would know from experience.

Tned
06-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Say what you will about Orton folding and not having a killer instinct or whatever (and I believe there is truth to both), he sure handled having a first-round QB on the bench behind him much better than Plummer.


There were other factors to Jake's performance in '06 besides 'folding', but that aside, you can also say that Jake handled Cutler replacing him mid-season like professional and team first guy, unlike Orton last year who shocked me with how me orientated he was -- the comments he made to the press and REFUSED to make to the press. Prior to that, I had pegged him as a team first guy that would do whatever it took to support his team mates. Surprise, I was wrong.

Shananahan
06-22-2011, 10:18 PM
True, I agree with all that. I was mainly talking about the differences between their performances on the field, not so much how they publicly handled the drafting/demotion. Orton took his game to another level, and Plummer started the season poorly only to get worse.

Juriga72
06-22-2011, 11:10 PM
Seems like you would know from experience.

Not really.....

Lets see......
QB- 28th in pass att
#2 Defense
#2 Running game


"He LED us to the playoffs'.....really? Kinda stupid dont you think

Shananahan
06-22-2011, 11:43 PM
Nobody said anything about him leading the team to the playoffs. Say what you want and hate the guy if it makes you happy, but the dude won games while in Denver.

Lonestar
06-23-2011, 07:21 AM
Nobody said anything about him leading the team to the playoffs. Say what you want and hate the guy if it makes you happy, but the dude won games while in Denver.

No it is the normal double standard that is here. Jake had the chops to get us to the play offs and a winning record and it was everything but him.

Orton doesn't have the same support and it was all his fault we were losing.

Yep, makes sense to me.

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 07:30 AM
Not really.....

Lets see......
QB- 28th in pass att
#2 Defense
#2 Running game


"He LED us to the playoffs'.....really? Kinda stupid dont you think

You might want to check your stats.

Lonestar
06-23-2011, 07:34 AM
You might want to check your stats.

Love all these stats that tell us that we are so great at running the ball but fail to
Mention it is mostly between the 20's.

Tned
06-23-2011, 07:39 AM
No it is the normal double standard that is here. Jake had the chops to get us to the play offs and a winning record and it was everything but him.

Orton doesn't have the same support and it was all his fault we were losing.

Yep, makes sense to me.

Just like some of you guys used a double standard when bashing Cutler?

Let's face it, a lot of posters first decide what they want to prove, based on their like/dislike of a player, and then support that like/dislike with twisted stats.

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 07:44 AM
Love all these stats that tell us that we are so great at running the ball but fail to
Mention it is mostly between the 20's.

You might want to check your stats too.

Juriga72
06-23-2011, 07:56 AM
You might want to check your stats.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

2005- Jake Plummer Pro Bowl greatest season EVER!!!!!!! 13-3

18th in Att/game- Yup... not even "average" below average...


2005- Denver Bronco's #2 Rushing 158.7 Yard/game

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2005&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

2005 Denver Bronco's Defense #3 Scoring..( HOLY COW!!!!!) I was so wrong here.....


Yes you were right... My facts NOW show that with the #2 rushing game AND the # THREE scoring Defense... Jake Plummer was able to lead us to a 13-3 record by handing off the ball.....

Like how his 2005 "First half qb rating" was 96.5 and his second half qb rating was 77.5

Like how iJake's 2005 "Close behind 1-8 points" QB rating was 45.6

Like how Jake's 2005 "4th Quarter within 7" qb rating was 67.4

Like how his comp % was:
11-20 yards- 46.3%
21-30 yards- 30.8 %
31-40 yards- 26.3%
41 + yards- 21.4%

Like THOSE "Orton" like stats?

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 08:05 AM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

2005- Jake Plummer Pro Bowl greatest season EVER!!!!!!! 13-3

18th in Att/game- Yup... not even "average" below average...


2005- Denver Bronco's #2 Rushing 158.7 Yard/game

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2005&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

2005 Denver Bronco's Defense #3 Scoring..( HOLY COW!!!!!) I was so wrong here.....


Yes you were right... My facts NOW show that with the #2 rushing game AND the # THREE scoring Defense... Jake Plummer was able to lead us to a 13-3 record by handing off the ball.....

Like how his 2005 "First half qb rating" was 96.5 and his second half qb rating was 77.5

Like how iJake's 2005 "Close behind 1-8 points" QB rating was 45.6

Like how Jake's 2005 "4th Quarter within 7" qb rating was 67.4

Like how his comp % was:
11-20 yards- 46.3%
21-30 yards- 30.8 %
31-40 yards- 26.3%
41 + yards- 21.4%

Like THOSE "Orton" like stats?

Are you really using attempts per game as a stat to prove your point.

Football outsiders ranked Denver's rushing game No. 1 and passing game No. 7.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff2005

Was he the best passer in the league? Hell no. But he sure wasn't losing games. He had the second-lowest interception percentage that season.

You don't go 33-15 as a starter and suck.

Tned
06-23-2011, 08:08 AM
Are you really using attempts per game as a stat to prove your point.

Football outsiders ranked Denver's rushing game No. 1 and passing game No. 7.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff2005

Was he the best passer in the league? Hell no. But he sure wasn't losing games. He had the second-lowest interception percentage that season.

You don't go 33-15 as a starter and suck.

Also, anyone that wants to look at the Broncos media guide will see that in three short years, he shot to the top/near the top on most important QB stats.

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 08:29 AM
Are you really using attempts per game as a stat to prove your point.

Football outsiders ranked Denver's rushing game No. 1 and passing game No. 7.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff2005

Was he the best passer in the league? Hell no. But he sure wasn't losing games. He had the second-lowest interception percentage that season.

You don't go 33-15 as a starter and suck.

I think Plummer's problem was that he wasn't much in studying. That's not my opinion it's what Shanahan said after Jake was gone, and what Dave Krieger said when he was still reporting for RMN.

SOCALORADO.
06-23-2011, 09:07 AM
If Tim Tebow was the last human on earth.....we'd still have a chance.

Lonestar
06-23-2011, 09:40 AM
You might want to check your stats too.

Sorry but not on a real computer.

But over the last decade of Mikeys regime we sucked in the redzone save 1-2 seasons. Most of those rushing yards were between the 20's. One of the reasons Elam was one of the elite FG kickers inside the 35. That was plain to see.

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 09:42 AM
Sorry but not on a real computer.

But over the last decade of Mikeys regime we sucked in the redzone save 1-2 seasons. Most of those rushing yards were between the 20's. One of the reasons Elam was one of the elite FG kickers inside the 35. That was plain to see.

The season in question (2005) the team didn't suck in the red zone. They had 25 rushing touchdowns. That's one of the contributing factors of them being 13-3 and in the AFC Championship game, one Champ Bailey INT from taking control...

And Cutler never would have been drafted. :elefant:

Ravage!!!
06-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Love all these stats that tell us that we are so great at running the ball but fail to
Mention it is mostly between the 20's.

Uhmmm... just to be clear, what team doesn't have most of their rushing yards between the twenties?

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 09:58 AM
Uhmmm... just to be clear, what team doesn't have most of their rushing yards between the twenties?

Don't you know the Broncos are the ONLY team that EVER struggles running the ball in the red zone.

claymore
06-23-2011, 10:02 AM
Plummer is a head case.

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 10:02 AM
The season in question (2005) the team didn't suck in the red zone. They had 25 rushing touchdowns. That's one of the contributing factors of them being 13-3 and in the AFC Championship game, one Champ Bailey INT from taking control...

And Cutler never would have been drafted. :elefant:

I'm not sure about that. IIRC Shanahan had eye on Cutler before 2005 season.

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 10:03 AM
I'm not sure about that. IIRC Shanahan had eye on Cutler before 2005 season.

I don't remember hearing that, but it wouldn't surprise me. Disappoints me, though.

BroncoStud
06-23-2011, 10:03 AM
Jake had a SWAGGER about him that the team fed off of. His bootlegs were nothing short of hilarious and amazing, he sold playaction perfectly and when he was loose on the outside the defense was usually screwed.

Shanahan designed the PERFECT offense for Jake and he was excellent in it. Plummer was never an elite passer but for a while he was a damn good QB and took that team about as far as they were going to go.

But in my opinion Jake had a way about himself that Orton lacks, a confidence and swagger that was evident on the field. I had faith in Jake if we were losing in the 4th quarter that he could make plays and get us in the right position.

He was fearless and fun to watch and as close to Elway as we have seen in Denver since John retired. Just think of how good Jake might have been if he had studied some film every now and then.

Lonestar
06-23-2011, 10:07 AM
The season in question (2005) the team didn't suck in the red zone. They had 25 rushing touchdowns. That's one of the contributing factors of them being 13-3 and in the AFC Championship game, one Champ Bailey INT from taking control...

And Cutler never would have been drafted. :elefant:
Thanks for the info. As I said except for 1-2 seasons we sucked in the red zone.

I was in including that last year.

Jakes improvement that last year came from sitting down with Kubes in particular and doing film study for most of the offseason. Reviewing every play and learning from it. The turn around in interceptions was astounding.

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 10:20 AM
Yeah. It was just going through all 521 pass attempts from the 2005 season that helped Plummer. It had a lot do with putting a portion of the play book in moth balls and limiting the number of pass attempts per game, which means we were running the ball even more than usual under Shanahan. Leaving facts like that out is dishonest.

dstober
06-23-2011, 10:33 AM
Tebow is simply a winner and it rubs off on those around him

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 10:40 AM
Tebow is simply a winner and it rubs off on those around him

It hasn't rubbed off on Orton. :heh:

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 11:06 AM
It hasn't rubbed off on Orton. :heh:

Because Orton wants nothing to do with him, you can prob count on both hands how many words he has said to Tebow

topscribe
06-23-2011, 11:12 AM
It hasn't rubbed off on Orton. :heh:

Tebow's not yet a winning QB for the Broncos, so apparently it has not rubbed off on himself. :heh:

-----

BroncoStud
06-23-2011, 11:31 AM
Tebow's not yet a winning QB for the Broncos, so apparently it has not rubbed off on himself. :heh:

-----

Hi Kyle. :welcome:

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 11:31 AM
Because Orton wants nothing to do with him, you can prob count on both hands how many words he has said to Tebow

I don't know if it would take two hand to count up the number of times Orton's talked to Tebow.

SOCALORADO.
06-23-2011, 11:40 AM
When Tim Tebow puts a sea shell to his ear, he hears adult contemporary hits of the 90s

Tned
06-23-2011, 12:25 PM
The season in question (2005) the team didn't suck in the red zone. They had 25 rushing touchdowns. That's one of the contributing factors of them being 13-3 and in the AFC Championship game, one Champ Bailey INT from taking control...

And Cutler never would have been drafted. :elefant:

Don't let facts get in the way of a good mikey bashing... ;)

Dzone
06-23-2011, 12:29 PM
check it out:Tebow statues for sale, $12,000. I want to get me one of these for my front lawn!lol

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Own-a-life-sized-bronzed-Tim-Tebow-statue-for-j?urn=ncaaf-wp2835

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 12:31 PM
check it out:Tebow statues for sale, $12,000. I want to get me one of these for my front lawn!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Own-a-life-sized-bronzed-Tim-Tebow-statue-for-j?urn=ncaaf-wp2835

No thanks. I like Tebow but I wouldn't spend 12 grand on a life size statue of the guy.

MOtorboat
06-23-2011, 12:38 PM
check it out:Tebow statues for sale, $12,000. I want to get me one of these for my front lawn!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Own-a-life-sized-bronzed-Tim-Tebow-statue-for-j?urn=ncaaf-wp2835

College Football fans can be some serious freaks. Nebraska, Oklahoma, Florida, Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan and Notre Dame fans...those are the real freaky ones.

rcsodak
06-23-2011, 01:12 PM
I too am a believer in what Tebow can do.

His playmaking ability as a rookie was simply inspiring.

While it was easy to see how his passing game needs work, its not flaws I see, but lack of experience.

We're REALLY lucky that with the removal of McD, we were able to keep the same offense with some tweaks, because changing the offense and terminology would have hampered Tim a bit. We dont want our rookie QB having to learn a new offense in year two.

Anyway, in my opinion the thing that makes me feel confident in Tebow was watching him play with poise. No, hes not Tom Brady yet, but for a rookie I thought he looked awesome.

His eyes were digesting the field in front of him, and that will become second nature as he gets reps.

Can anyone remember Vicks first years? His playmaking ability made him win far more games than his passing skills did. Its the same with Tim, even if he doesnt have that uber elite speed that Vick does.

But the playmaking ability is there WITHOUT a doubt.

He converts third downs, and he will convert third downs even more with reps. Tim doesnt have to be Peyton. He can be a better Ben Roth.

With a running game that has a feature back, along with his running ability, his passing can be secondary and he can drive a ball controlling, clock eating offense that always ends with a score.

He will produce far more touchdowns that Orton will with reps.

Orton has far more experience than Tim, but for the same reasons Vince Young can win a game without being an elite passer, so can Tebow.

Yet Tebow is coachable......an ultra leader......an unstoppable worker.....and he has a consuming fire to win that will not be quenched.


I believe.


Let Tebow play.:salute:

:laugh:

I'm curious how you would've posted had this been available in elways 2nd yr.

Btw, TT≠elway. ;)

Ravage!!!
06-23-2011, 01:13 PM
No thanks. I like Tebow but I wouldn't spend 12 grand on a life size statue of the guy.

he would have to become a HoF QB before I buy a miniature statue of him.

rcsodak
06-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Tebow should be the starter next year because he comletely outplayed Orton. Why not give him a chance to see if that continues?

How did he "outplay orton"?

NorCalBronco7
06-23-2011, 01:35 PM
Can anyone confidently say that Tebow gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year than Orton, even considering the context of this season?

Ravage!!!
06-23-2011, 01:40 PM
Can anyone confidently say that Tebow gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year than Orton, even considering the context of this season?

No. I peronally don't think Tebow is going to be a good NFL QB in the long run, but I DO KNOW that Orton isn't the answer at QB.

The only reason I think Tebow should start is because we already know that Orton isn't a long-term QB in Denver. This will be his last year, no matter what.

In the meantime, we don't know what Tebow may or may not be. We have to see and let him develop over the season so that we have some kind of idea where we are once the season is over.

I don't think Tebow necessarily gives us a better chance to win this year, but I don't think he gives us a lesser chance.

Just knowing that Orton is not more than a place-holder anyway, gives me enough reason to move on. If Tebow isn't the answer.. move on.

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 01:41 PM
he would have to become a HoF QB before I buy a miniature statue of him.

I wouldn't buy one that's based off his college career.

SOCALORADO.
06-23-2011, 01:50 PM
No. I peronally don't think Tebow is going to be a good NFL QB in the long run, but I DO KNOW that Orton isn't the answer at QB.

The only reason I think Tebow should start is because we already know that Orton isn't a long-term QB in Denver. This will be his last year, no matter what.

In the meantime, we don't know what Tebow may or may not be. We have to see and let him develop over the season so that we have some kind of idea where we are once the season is over.

I don't think Tebow necessarily gives us a better chance to win this year, but I don't think he gives us a lesser chance.

Just knowing that Orton is not more than a place-holder anyway, gives me enough reason to move on. If Tebow isn't the answer.. move on.

Ooh, you can just smell that Andrew Luck lingering in the background of Ravs posts, cant ya!

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 01:53 PM
Can anyone confidently say that Tebow gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year than Orton, even considering the context of this season?

I feel that even as a rookie.....key work rookie, and only in his first 3 games in the league which almost every QB does not play that well, I felt like the TEAM played better and our offense was more affective. With Tebow behind the helm we averaged more points over the 3 game span then Orton averaged over the 13 game span he had. When it goes down to the line, I would much rather have the ball in Tebows hands.

Tebow rookie stats 2010
2010
DEN
GP CMP ATT CMP% YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM RAT
9 41 82 50.0 654 7.98 5 50 3 0 82.1
rushing 9 43 227 5.3 40 6 12 1 0

Elway rookie stats 1983
DEN

11 123 259 47.5 1,663 6.42 7 49 14 0 54.9

Peyton rookie manning stats 1998
1998
IND

16 326 575 56.7 3,739 6.50 26 78 28 3 71.2

Eli Manning rookie stats 2004
2004
NYG

9 95 197 48.2 1,043 5.29 6 52 9 2 55.4

Jay Culter rookie stats
2006
DEN

5 81 137 59.1 1,001 7.31 9 71 5 3 88.5

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 01:54 PM
that is not as pretty looking as I hoped

NorCalBronco7
06-23-2011, 02:00 PM
No. I peronally don't think Tebow is going to be a good NFL QB in the long run, but I DO KNOW that Orton isn't the answer at QB.

The only reason I think Tebow should start is because we already know that Orton isn't a long-term QB in Denver. This will be his last year, no matter what.

In the meantime, we don't know what Tebow may or may not be. We have to see and let him develop over the season so that we have some kind of idea where we are once the season is over.

I don't think Tebow necessarily gives us a better chance to win this year, but I don't think he gives us a lesser chance.

Just knowing that Orton is not more than a place-holder anyway, gives me enough reason to move on. If Tebow isn't the answer.. move on.

Common sense says Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year (I can hear the laughter throughout cyberspace), although we cant know for sure yet. Tebow is basically still a rookie. Chances are he will struggle like most young players do.

I just wish all the Qbs could compete so we can see how much growth has taken place.

NorCalBronco7
06-23-2011, 02:05 PM
I feel that even as a rookie.....key work rookie, and only in his first 3 games in the league which almost every QB does not play that well, I felt like the TEAM played better and our offense was more affective. With Tebow behind the helm we averaged more points over the 3 game span then Orton averaged over the 13 game span he had. When it goes down to the line, I would much rather have the ball in Tebows hands.

Tebow rookie stats 2010
2010
DEN
GP CMP ATT CMP% YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM RAT
9 41 82 50.0 654 7.98 5 50 3 0 82.1
rushing 9 43 227 5.3 40 6 12 1 0

Elway rookie stats 1983
DEN

11 123 259 47.5 1,663 6.42 7 49 14 0 54.9

Peyton rookie manning stats 1998
1998
IND

16 326 575 56.7 3,739 6.50 26 78 28 3 71.2

Eli Manning rookie stats 2004
2004
NYG

9 95 197 48.2 1,043 5.29 6 52 9 2 55.4

Jay Culter rookie stats
2006
DEN

5 81 137 59.1 1,001 7.31 9 71 5 3 88.5

So does Tebow give the Broncos a better chance to win next year than Orton, based on 3 games?

Shananahan
06-23-2011, 02:05 PM
Common sense says Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year (I can hear the laughter throughout cyberspace), although we cant know for sure yet. Tebow is basically still a rookie. Chances are he will struggle like most young players do.
You're missing the point of his post (which was exactly how I feel about it). Everybody wants to win as much as possible next year, but playing Orton does nothing for the future of the team.

I'd rather win less games next year and see what Tebow provides than watch Orton walk away for nothing at the end of the season and be back at square one.

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 02:13 PM
You're missing the point of his post (which was exactly how I feel about it). Everybody wants to win as much as possible next year, but playing Orton does nothing for the future of the team.

I'd rather win less games next year and see what Tebow provides than watch Orton walk away for nothing at the end of the season and be back at square one.

Exactly and I like to see people compare Tebow to other QBs, but its comparing apples to oranges in some ways. I think it is better to compare a rookie to other players rookie years. Because going from college to pro has huge differences and takes time to adjust. And letting him start will give him the better chance to adjust to speed and reading a defense. With Orton he has reached his ceiling and wont get any better then what we saw on the field. Tebow, we dont know where his ceiling is yet, but we do know after comparing 3 games, he was not far behind Orton on stats (averaged and projected).

I feel more confident with Tebow on field then Orton. I see a rookie with high ceiling and raw mechanics and a vet who reached the ceiling and had nothing to prove. If he played at pro bowl level then why did Cassel get in over him? Probably because players/coaches and fans did not think he was at the caliber of pro bowl and all he had were high yards in a very pass happy offense.

NorCalBronco7
06-23-2011, 02:15 PM
You're missing the point of his post (which was exactly how I feel about it). Everybody wants to win as much as possible next year, but playing Orton does nothing for the future of the team.

I'd rather win less games next year and see what Tebow provides than watch Orton walk away for nothing at the end of the season and be back at square one.

And if Tebow is garbage, then I guess the Broncos are royally screwed, this year and in the future.


I thought the mighty Herm Edwards point was "you play to win the game".

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 02:18 PM
And if Tebow is garbage, then I guess the Broncos are royally screwed, this year and in the future.


I thought the mighty Herm Edwards point was "you play to win the game".

And you dont keep a potential investment on the bench when you dont have one on the field. You see what the investment is worth. And how are you going to learn what he can do, hold a clipboard forever? And with has much as they invested in him they cant just sit on him and let him be the highest paid backup (1st rounder money...is big). He needs to play to earn his strips and see if he can do it, or else you draft another QB and do the same thing.

Shananahan
06-23-2011, 02:22 PM
And if Tebow is garbage, then I guess the Broncos are royally screwed, this year and in the future.
Wrong. If Tebow is garbage then we will be in the same exact spot at the end of the year as we would be had Orton played the entire season. The difference is they would know he was garbage.

chazoe60
06-23-2011, 02:38 PM
The Denver Broncos scored more points when Tim Tebow was the QB than when Kyle Orton was the QB. The idea that Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win now is a myth.

The Tebow led Broncos never scored lower than the Kule Orton led Broncos' scoring average, so how does common sense dictate that Orton gives us a better shot? Kyle Orton is a hinderance an any team that does not field a top flight defense and running game. He fails miserably at all the crucial times a QB is called upon to step up, so unless those times (3rd down, crunch time, RZ, and any big momentum shifting moment) are drastically reduced and more often times than not put into the hands of someone otherthan the QB, Orton will fail.

He's backup QB material and I'm sick of settling for his type of shit play at QB for the Denver Broncos. Jettison his lousy ass and let's move on.

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 02:41 PM
And if Tebow is garbage, then I guess the Broncos are royally screwed, this year and in the future.


I thought the mighty Herm Edwards point was "you play to win the game".


How does he give us the best chance to win....put up more big numbers and lose? Improved defense will help and running game? Well if he cant move the chains and keep our defense off the field to rest then we are still in the same hole.

BroncoStud
06-23-2011, 02:59 PM
And if Tebow is garbage, then I guess the Broncos are royally screwed, this year and in the future.


I thought the mighty Herm Edwards point was "you play to win the game".

Ok, this is just stupid now... WTF HAS KYLE ORTON WON? Has he won a playoff game? No. Has he won a Super Bowl? No.

What is his record in Denver? Yep, it sucks. How have the Bears done since he left? That's right, they just went to the NFC Championship this year.

So, I ask you once more... WHAT has Kyle won, and how does 3 wins in 2010 give ANYONE faith in him to win games in 2011?

It's just absolute nonsense when that cliche gets thrown around and has ZERO, and I mean ZERO backing. He got benched and the Bears reach a Super Bowl, he gets traded and they reach the NFC Championship, and he comes to Denver and we win 11 games in 2 years with him as the QB. :elefant:

Oh boy! He SURE is a winner. :rolleyes:

TXBRONC
06-23-2011, 03:03 PM
And if Tebow is garbage, then I guess the Broncos are royally screwed, this year and in the future.


I thought the mighty Herm Edwards point was "you play to win the game".

NorCal, Shanahan didn't say otherwise. So lets say Tebow is garbage what does sitting him on the bench do? We would still be in the same boat would we not?

Ravage!!!
06-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Common sense says Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win next year (I can hear the laughter throughout cyberspace), although we cant know for sure yet. Tebow is basically still a rookie. Chances are he will struggle like most young players do.

I just wish all the Qbs could compete so we can see how much growth has taken place.

Orton definitely is going to read defenses better. I think he's a more accurate thrower, and probably performs really well in practice.

So what would we gain by Orton winning the starting role this year? One year of Orton doing what he's always done, and failing when we need the QB to make a play. To make a drive, or to simply make SOMETHING happen.

Then we watch him leave next season because we sure as hell know that Orton isn't going to be a Bronco in 2012. No way, no how.

In the meantime, you have the QB you HOPE is your future sitting yet ANOTHER year on the bench not learning the game behind center. Going into the 2012 season with nothing to base judgement on, and a team that is now 1 more year experienced.... EXCEPT your starting QB.

Lets just be honest and realize that this team is not going ANYWHERE with Orton... and build a solid base this coming season so that we can build up FROM the base in 2012.

If Tebow doesn't show the improvement that we want and need him to make...then we are in no worse a position we are now, except we know it a season SOONER than waiting and wasting a year with Orton.

Ravage!!!
06-23-2011, 04:19 PM
Ooh, you can just smell that Andrew Luck lingering in the background of Ravs posts, cant ya!

Nah... our only chance at Luck would have been this last year where we only would have had to move up one spot. I hope we aren't bad enough to draft #1 overall next season.

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Nah... our only chance at Luck would have been this last year where we only would have had to move up one spot. I hope we aren't bad enough to draft #1 overall next season.

Well if there is no 2011 season, then there would be no draft and they would become FA and could sign anywhere and Elway could talk to him :D

I hope it would not come to that.

rcsodak
06-23-2011, 04:51 PM
that is not as pretty looking as I hoped
His stats? You're right....they weren't.

1-2 is nothing to brag about.

Look what McCoy did last yr against better teams.

Ravage!!!
06-23-2011, 04:55 PM
Well if there is no 2011 season, then there would be no draft and they would become FA and could sign anywhere and Elway could talk to him :D

I hope it would not come to that.

I don't think thats how it will work. I don't think you'll see every college player simply be a UFA. If there is no season, and there is no draft, then there is no signing of players. There probably wouldn't even be "meeting" of players.

In fact, I heard that if there was no 2011 season, the 2012 draft would revert back to teh 2011 order.... in which case it woudl be PERFECT for Denver since Carolina just used their #1 overall pick on a QB. Although, that means another team would most likely move into the #1 spot ahead of us.

topscribe
06-23-2011, 05:01 PM
You're missing the point of his post (which was exactly how I feel about it). Everybody wants to win as much as possible next year, but playing Orton does nothing for the future of the team.

I'd rather win less games next year and see what Tebow provides than watch Orton walk away for nothing at the end of the season and be back at square one.

I don't know how any true fan could possibly think that way. I would rather the
Broncos win. Period. Experimenting at the expense of winning during the regular
season just flat blows . . .

-----

Shananahan
06-23-2011, 05:06 PM
In fact, I heard that if there was no 2011 season, the 2012 draft would revert back to teh 2011 order.... in which case it woudl be PERFECT for Denver since Carolina just used their #1 overall pick on a QB. Although, that means another team would most likely move into the #1 spot ahead of us.
Yeah. Assuming Luck doesn't falter or suck this season, the only place he'll be drafted would be #1. If the team picking first doesn't need a QB, they'll auction off the pick. Nobody will just pass on the guy.

Shananahan
06-23-2011, 05:10 PM
I don't know how any true fan could possibly think that way. I would rather the
Broncos win. Period. Experimenting at the expense of winning during the regular
season just flat blows . . .

-----
I agree, but do you really think the difference in wins and losses would be that much?

topscribe
06-23-2011, 05:24 PM
I agree, but do you really think the difference in wins and losses would be that much?

Yes.

-----

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 05:26 PM
His stats? You're right....they weren't.

1-2 is nothing to brag about.

Look what McCoy did last yr against better teams.

actually no the lay out, for a rookie I dont mind his stats at all, why do you think they look bad?

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 05:27 PM
I don't think thats how it will work. I don't think you'll see every college player simply be a UFA. If there is no season, and there is no draft, then there is no signing of players. There probably wouldn't even be "meeting" of players.

In fact, I heard that if there was no 2011 season, the 2012 draft would revert back to teh 2011 order.... in which case it woudl be PERFECT for Denver since Carolina just used their #1 overall pick on a QB. Although, that means another team would most likely move into the #1 spot ahead of us.

I heard on NFL.com and ESPN.com that if no season there is no draft order and no draft. So then they would all just become UFA.

Shananahan
06-23-2011, 05:37 PM
Yes.

-----
So like... worse than four?

topscribe
06-23-2011, 05:52 PM
So like... worse than four?

Well, first of all, Fox is not McDaniels. I personally (and I may be wrong) look for
an improved running game and a significantly improved defense. In addition, the
Broncos will have some big receivers that they never had last year.

If (and I realize what "if" means) the Broncos can land a DeAngelo Williams and
a couple good DTs this year, I don't believe 9-7 and contention for Division
championship is out of the question . . .

-----

BroncoStud
06-23-2011, 05:54 PM
I don't know how any true fan could possibly think that way. I would rather the
Broncos win. Period. Experimenting at the expense of winning during the regular
season just flat blows . . .

-----

Hi Kyle, it's too bad that you are 11-17 since coming here and starting you doesn't mean we're going to win much of anything. So it makes more sense to evaluate the 1st round draft pick who MAY give us a chance in the future as opposed to watch you go 3 and out at a "record-shattering pace" again this year.

After 5 years in the NFL we know EXACTLY what you are. We are still holding out hope that Tebow offers more. Either way starting you does us no good this season as we need to know what we have in our potential QBOTF.

NightTerror218
06-23-2011, 06:01 PM
Well, first of all, Fox is not McDaniels. I personally (and I may be wrong) look for
an improved running game and a significantly improved defense. In addition, the
Broncos will have some big receivers that they never had last year.

If (and I realize what "if" means) the Broncos can land a DeAngelo Williams and
a couple good DTs this year, I don't believe 9-7 and contention for Division
championship is out of the question . . .

-----


So if by chance all that does happen. Then we would fail in playoffs because our QB with fail us. That is because of the pressure you would have. Or we will turn into the Panthers were a couple yrs ago. A QB who could not quite make it, a good defense and a good running game. Orton is just not the leader we can make the Sb with period. The pressure of playoffs will break if our defense and running game take us to the post season.

BroncoStud
06-23-2011, 06:09 PM
So if by chance all that does happen. Then we would fail in playoffs because our QB with fail us. That is because of the pressure you would have. Or we will turn into the Panthers were a couple yrs ago. A QB who could not quite make it, a good defense and a good running game. Orton is just not the leader we can make the Sb with period. The pressure of playoffs will break if our defense and running game take us to the post season.

Just about everyone on here knows that Orton isn't a QB you build your team around. Going 6-10 with Tebow and actually evaluating what he has to offer as opposed to going 7-9 with Orton and having NO clue what Tebow is worth for another season is absolute INSANITY, and it won't fly with Broncos fans as Orton will be booed more this season.

Not to mention that Kyle is a free agent at the end of this season and will walk for nothing, it makes all the sense in the world to trade Orton, bring in a free agent VETERAN backup QB to mentor the youngsters, and move forward as a team and an organization from the debacle that was Josh McDaniels.

broncoFan!
06-23-2011, 06:57 PM
Just about everyone on here knows that Orton isn't a QB you build your team around. Going 6-10 with Tebow and actually evaluating what he has to offer as opposed to going 7-9 with Orton and having NO clue what Tebow is worth for another season is absolute INSANITY, and it won't fly with Broncos fans as Orton will be booed more this season.

Not to mention that Kyle is a free agent at the end of this season and will walk for nothing, it makes all the sense in the world to trade Orton, bring in a free agent VETERAN backup QB to mentor the youngsters, and move forward as a team and an organization from the debacle that was Josh McDaniels.

^^^

Out of all the ridiculous things that happened during the Mcdaniels era, drafting Tebow was actually pretty smart. Especially since we have a stopgap player in Orton. We don't know about Tebow for the most part.

I think he has a bright future. Kyle? I think we have seen his ceiling.

Bullgator
06-24-2011, 02:27 AM
Why is TT the answer?

well here are a few reasons:

Here is all 88 passing TDs as a Gator... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WNWFPDls1I

His first three starts:
QB - TDs - INT/Lost Fumbles
Tim Tebow - 7 - 3
Tom Brady - 2 - 2
Drew Brees - 3 - 2
Kyle Orton - 1 - 7
Peyton Manning - 2 - 9
John Elway - 1 - 3
Sam Bradford - 4 - 5

"Tebow's first three games to the first three games of 8 of those 10 QBs (I couldn't find individual game stats for Bart Starr's and Johnny Unitas' first three games.) Here's what I found:

None of the 9 quarterbacks had 3 wins. Tom Brady was the only one with 2 wins and 1 loss. Tim Tebow, Brett Favre, John Elway, and Steve Young each had 1 win and 2 losses. The rest (Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, and Terry Bradshaw) all started their careers with 0 wins and 3 losses.

With 651 passing yards, Tebow was 4th after Favre (775), Montana (705), and Manning (683). The others had: Brady 618, Marino 562, Bradshaw 488, Young 407, and Elway 370.

With an 82.7 passer rating, Tebow was 4th after Favre (105.37), Marino (99.4), and Montana (86.2). The rest had: Brady 77.2, Elway 50.7, Manning 49.7, Young 46.2, and Bradshaw 36.8.

With 4 passing TDs, Tebow was 3rd after Marino (6) and Montana (5). Favre had 3, Brady and Manning each had 2, Elway and Young each had 1, and Bradshaw had 0.

With 3 turnovers, he finished 3rd. Brett Favre only had 1 interception, and Tom Brady had no interceptions and 2 lost fumbles. Dan Marino and John Elway each tied Tebow with 3 turnovers, Joe Montana and Steve Young each had 4, Terry Bradshaw had 5, and Peyton Manning had 9.

With 7 TDs and only 3 turnovers, Tebow's TD to turnover ratio (2.33) was 2nd only to Brett Favre who had 3 TDs and 1 turnover (3.0). Marino had 6 TDs to 3 turnovers (2.0), Montana had 5 to 4 (1.25), Brady had 2 to 2 (1.0), Elway had 1 to 3 (0.33), Young had 1 to 4 (0.25), Manning had 2 to 9 (0.22), and Bradshaw had 1 to 5 (0.2).

Tebow finished first in:

- rushing yards (199 - compared to Young 144, Bradshaw 73, Favre 44, Montana 33, Elway 31, Manning 26, Brady 11, and Marino -4)

- rushing touchdowns (3 - Bradshaw was the only other one to have a rushing TD)

- total yards gained (824 - compared to Favre 774, Montana 706, Manning 662, Brady 584, Marino 517, Young 450, Bradshaw 440, and Elway 345)

- and least yards lost to sacks (6 sacks for 26 yards - compared to Montana 3 for 32, Marino 4 for 41, Favre 6 for 45, Brady 8 for 45, Manning 7 for 47, Elway 8 for 56, Young 14 for 101, and Bradshaw 12 for 121)"

the stats in quotes is not mine but has been verified.

BroncoStud
06-24-2011, 06:02 AM
Who knows if TT is the answer or not. Way too early to tell. We need to find out though and my hunch is we will soon.

Bullgator
06-24-2011, 12:16 PM
I wonder what the line is Vegas on TT making it as a NFL QB.

MOtorboat
06-24-2011, 12:20 PM
I wonder what the line is Vegas on TT making it as a NFL QB.

How in the world would you define that bet?

:confused:

Bullgator
06-24-2011, 12:23 PM
How in the world would you define that bet?

:confused:

well they wouldnt on that as a whole... but they could on starting job, winning or losing season... playoffs... pass stats.. endless ways really. you know Vegas they can make a bet out of anything.

MOtorboat
06-24-2011, 12:26 PM
well they wouldnt on that as a whole... but they could on starting job, winning or losing season... playoffs... pass stats.. endless ways really. you know Vegas they can make a bet out of anything.

Don't get your hopes up.

NightTerror218
06-24-2011, 12:33 PM
well they wouldnt on that as a whole... but they could on starting job, winning or losing season... playoffs... pass stats.. endless ways really. you know Vegas they can make a bet out of anything.

Number of flexing/screams after a rushing touchdown. 2:1 odds if over 5 times; 5:1 odds if over 10 times; 10:1 once per game; 100:1 game winning TD; in SB 200:1. All bets must be placed prior to start of preseason and minimum bet is $500.

NorCalBronco7
06-24-2011, 12:40 PM
Wrong. If Tebow is garbage then we will be in the same exact spot at the end of the year as we would be had Orton played the entire season. The difference is they would know he was garbage.

Unless Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win next year. And Orton could be a stop gap til the Broncos find a franchise Qb if Tebow blows. Theres more than one scenerio.



The Denver Broncos scored more points when Tim Tebow was the QB than when Kyle Orton was the QB. The idea that Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win now is a myth.

The Tebow led Broncos never scored lower than the Kule Orton led Broncos' scoring average, so how does common sense dictate that Orton gives us a better shot? Kyle Orton is a hinderance an any team that does not field a top flight defense and running game. He fails miserably at all the crucial times a QB is called upon to step up, so unless those times (3rd down, crunch time, RZ, and any big momentum shifting moment) are drastically reduced and more often times than not put into the hands of someone otherthan the QB, Orton will fail.

He's backup QB material and I'm sick of settling for his type of shit play at QB for the Denver Broncos. Jettison his lousy ass and let's move on.

My argument for Orton giving the Broncos the best chance to win comes down to experience and the fact that Orton has won in the league before. Compared to a virtual rookie with numerous questions marks, he looks like the safer bet.

3 games hardly "shatters" the myth and proves Tebows BETTER than Orton. Rex Grossman did even better than Tebow the last 3 games of the season, should the Broncos sign him?

topscribe
06-24-2011, 12:47 PM
The Denver Broncos scored more points when Tim Tebow was the QB than when Kyle Orton was the QB. The idea that Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win now is a myth.

The Tebow led Broncos never scored lower than the Kule Orton led Broncos' scoring average, so how does common sense dictate that Orton gives us a better shot? Kyle Orton is a hinderance an any team that does not field a top flight defense and running game. He fails miserably at all the crucial times a QB is called upon to step up, so unless those times (3rd down, crunch time, RZ, and any big momentum shifting moment) are drastically reduced and more often times than not put into the hands of someone otherthan the QB, Orton will fail.

He's backup QB material and I'm sick of settling for his type of shit play at QB for the Denver Broncos. Jettison his lousy ass and let's move on.

Chaz, since you seem to say virtually the same thing virtually every time,
what I would do is to save this post of yours in Notepad. Then you can just
copy and paste it when you want to respond.

It would save you some keystrokes . . . :whoknows:



:D



-----

NorCalBronco7
06-24-2011, 01:00 PM
Ok, this is just stupid now... WTF HAS KYLE ORTON WON? Has he won a playoff game? No. Has he won a Super Bowl? No.

What is his record in Denver? Yep, it sucks. How have the Bears done since he left? That's right, they just went to the NFC Championship this year.

So, I ask you once more... WHAT has Kyle won, and how does 3 wins in 2010 give ANYONE faith in him to win games in 2011?

It's just absolute nonsense when that cliche gets thrown around and has ZERO, and I mean ZERO backing. He got benched and the Bears reach a Super Bowl, he gets traded and they reach the NFC Championship, and he comes to Denver and we win 11 games in 2 years with him as the QB. :elefant:

Oh boy! He SURE is a winner. :rolleyes:

And Tebow has won what in the NFL? 32-29 Orton 1-2 Tebow. Experience favors Orton, not Tebow.







NorCal, Shanahan didn't say otherwise. So lets say Tebow is garbage what does sitting him on the bench do? We would still be in the same boat would we not?

If Tebows sitting on the bench thats because Orton has beat him out and gives the Broncos a better chance to win. That sounds like a typical NFL move.





Orton definitely is going to read defenses better. I think he's a more accurate thrower, and probably performs really well in practice.

So what would we gain by Orton winning the starting role this year? One year of Orton doing what he's always done, and failing when we need the QB to make a play. To make a drive, or to simply make SOMETHING happen.

Then we watch him leave next season because we sure as hell know that Orton isn't going to be a Bronco in 2012. No way, no how.

In the meantime, you have the QB you HOPE is your future sitting yet ANOTHER year on the bench not learning the game behind center. Going into the 2012 season with nothing to base judgement on, and a team that is now 1 more year experienced.... EXCEPT your starting QB.

Lets just be honest and realize that this team is not going ANYWHERE with Orton... and build a solid base this coming season so that we can build up FROM the base in 2012.

If Tebow doesn't show the improvement that we want and need him to make...then we are in no worse a position we are now, except we know it a season SOONER than waiting and wasting a year with Orton.

You guys need to save this crap if Orton is on the 2011 Broncos roster. Tebows not going to start over Orton for any other reason than winning the Qb competition, period. Not because of "HOPE"! John Fox is to conservative of a coach and the Broncos oraganization is too concerned with winning to hands the keys of the offense over to a player because he needs experience (which seems to be your only answer). Tebow isnt a ******* science project. Its about winning.

topscribe
06-24-2011, 01:10 PM
If Tebows sitting on the bench thats because Orton has beat him out and gives the Broncos a better chance to win. That sounds like a typical NFL move.

You guys need to save this crap if Orton is on the 2011 Broncos roster. Tebows not going to start over Orton for any other reason than winning the Qb competition, period. Not because of "HOPE"! John Fox is to conservative of a coach and the Broncos oraganization is too concerned with winning to hands the keys of the offense over to a player because he needs experience (which seems to be your only answer). Tebow isnt a [expletive deleted :D] science project. Its about winning.

DING!!

That's all I've been saying. If, after honest competition, Tebow is considered
by Fox as giving the Broncos the best chance to win, I will be happy. Same
the other way around.

Remember what the coach said? "HELLO! The name of the game is to WIN!"

-----

NorCalBronco7
06-24-2011, 01:19 PM
DING!!

That's all I've been saying. If, after honest competition, Tebow is considered
by Fox as giving the Broncos the best chance to win, I will be happy. Same
the other way around.

Remember what the coach said? "HELLO! That name of the game is to WIN!"

-----

And thats how its going to be unless Orton is traded. Its funny, Broncos fans would rather Tebow start even if it hurt the Broncos chances of winning. **** THAT NONSENSE!

Lonestar
06-24-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't know how any true fan could possibly think that way. I would rather the
Broncos win. Period. Experimenting at the expense of winning during the regular
season just flat blows . . .

-----
When the chances of playoffs are finito. I could care less, about winning, it is time to play the rookies & backups to see what we have and do not have in talent.

As far as losing for the better draft choices if we can't win on the playoffs them I would rather have a pick each year between 5-10.

A couple of those picks would build the base of the team.

Shananahan
06-24-2011, 01:22 PM
Unless Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win next year. And Orton could be a stop gap til the Broncos find a franchise Qb if Tebow blows. Theres more than one scenerio.
What are the other scenarios, then?

You're seriously suggesting the possibility of Denver resigning Orton to serve as a stopgap? Because I'm sure he'll just leap at the opportunity to sign a 2-3 year contract for a team with a savior as his backup in a city that wants to see the kid play. And how will the team know that Tebow blows if they keep playing Orton? I mean, did you really put any thought into this post?

They're not resigning Orton and they're sure as Hell not franchising him. If he starts the entire season then he's gone and Denver begins anew at the position.

chazoe60
06-24-2011, 01:23 PM
How is it nonsense to want what is in the best interest of the franchise longterm? What longterm benefits does Orton give to the Denver Broncos?

BroncoNut
06-24-2011, 01:25 PM
Nice article, but I'm getting a bit bored with all the speculation. Of course that's offseason in part, but we really need to see what this guy can do in regular season play when playoffs are still on the line imo. I'm all for starting Orton at this time, with what I hope will be a better immediate defense over last year, but if this 6-7 year veteran doesn't come out within the first 3 games driving the offense down the field, controlling the clock, converting 3rd downs, yadda yadda yadda, it IS Tebow time sooner rather than later.

Shananahan
06-24-2011, 01:32 PM
Nice article, but I'm getting a bit bored with all the speculation. Of course that's offseason in part, but we really need to see what this guy can do in regular season play when playoffs are still on the line imo. I'm all for starting Orton at this time, with what I hope will be a better immediate defense over last year, but if this 6-7 year veteran doesn't come out within the first 3 games driving the offense down the field, controlling the clock, converting 3rd downs, yadda yadda yadda, it IS Tebow time sooner rather than later.
That's a fair take, but I still feel like you'd be wasting Orton on the roster in that scenario and spending nine million dollars on a backup QB.

I like Orton. If he starts, I can live with that because I think right now he's still the best QB on the team. I don't believe, however, that Denver becomes any more of a playoff-caliber team by playing Orton over Tebow. Therefor it just makes sense to jettison the dude, get as much as you can for him, and have fun watching the potential QB of the future show us what he's got.

NorCalBronco7
06-24-2011, 01:39 PM
When the chances of playoffs are finito. I could care less, about winning, it is time to play the rookies & backups to see what we have and do not have in talent.

As far as losing for the better draft choices if we can't win on the playoffs them I would rather have a pick each year between 5-10.

A couple of those picks would build the base of the team.

Yeah, screw the 2011 season!


What are the other scenarios, then?

You're seriously suggesting the possibility of Denver resigning Orton to serve as a stopgap? Because I'm sure he'll just leap at the opportunity to sign a 2-3 year contract for a team with a savior as his backup in a city that wants to see the kid play. And how will the team know that Tebow blows if they keep playing Orton? I mean, did you really put any thought into this post?

They're not resigning Orton and they're sure as Hell not franchising him. If he starts the entire season then he's gone and Denver begins anew at the position.

Why couldnt Orton resign if Fox likes him? Thats a possiblity.


How is it nonsense to want what is in the best interest of the franchise longterm? What longterm benefits does Orton give to the Denver Broncos?

Ive always felt the Broncos are a very short sighted team. Every year the Broncos have done their best to give them the best chance of winning each season. This year I feel will be no different.

Your right that Orton with his current contract serves no long term benifits, although the opportunity to resign him is a possibility. With that being said, the focus isnt on 2012. Its success in 2011. And thats all Im concerned about. IF Orton is on the team and not traded, his short term value COULD BE the difference between the playoffs and not.

BroncoNut
06-24-2011, 01:41 PM
That's a fair take, but I still feel like you'd be wasting Orton on the roster in that scenario and spending nine million dollars on a backup QB.

I like Orton. If he starts, I can live with that because I think right now he's still the best QB on the team. I don't believe, however, that Denver becomes any more of a playoff-caliber team by playing Orton over Tebow. Therefor it just makes sense to jettison the dude, get as much as you can for him, and have fun watching the potential QB of the future show us what he's got.

I like that scenario too. I don't "hate" Orton either,I actually think he is/ could still be a decent qb with more talent around him. I haven't written him off quite yet. In fairness to him, last year, he just had so little to work with. but now would seem to be the time to trade him away, if we were to do that

T.K.O.
06-24-2011, 01:43 PM
Gmqdpv0NL3s

BroncoNut
06-24-2011, 01:43 PM
<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Gmqdpv0NL3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

All is see is a white rectangle and I can't feel my legs

NightTerror218
06-24-2011, 01:44 PM
And thats how its going to be unless Orton is traded. Its funny, Broncos fans would rather Tebow start even if it hurt the Broncos chances of winning. **** THAT NONSENSE!

So what is better a QB who is great on the practice field and sucks it up on the field during games and will be gone next season? Or a QB being groomed to be a possible franchise QB and only experience on the field will show how high his ceiling can be and potential is, and if he is the franchise guy or not?

Only reason Orton would win competition during training camp is because he is not under pressure. But losing first couple games will cost him starting position anways.

Shananahan
06-24-2011, 01:46 PM
Why couldnt Orton resign if Fox likes him? Thats a possiblity.
You're not living in reality, dude.

T.K.O.
06-24-2011, 01:46 PM
All is see is a white rectangle and I can't feel my legs

really ? i can see it.....anybody else ?:confused:

and your legs are probably just south of where your hands are....try lower

NorCalBronco7
06-24-2011, 01:47 PM
That's a fair take, but I still feel like you'd be wasting Orton on the roster in that scenario and spending nine million dollars on a backup QB.

I like Orton. If he starts, I can live with that because I think right now he's still the best QB on the team. I don't believe, however, that Denver becomes any more of a playoff-caliber team by playing Orton over Tebow. Therefor it just makes sense to jettison the dude, get as much as you can for him, and have fun watching the potential QB of the future show us what he's got.

Fox turned a horrible Carolina team into a playoff team in one year.

What I absolutley dispise is the idea that the Broncos at any point dont believe they dont have a chance at the playoffs, even before the season starts (unlike some fans).

Im with you that the Broncos should get value for Orton as soon as possible, but IF hes on the 2011 roster and is the better player, then Orton needs to start because he very well could be the difference between the playoffs and not.

BroncoNut
06-24-2011, 01:49 PM
really ? i can see it.....anybody else ?:confused:

and your legs are probably just south of where your hands are....try lower

I was able to see it eventually

chazoe60
06-24-2011, 01:51 PM
Chaz, since you seem to say virtually the same thing virtually every time,
what I would do is to save this post of yours in Notepad. Then you can just
copy and paste it when you want to respond.

It would save you some keystrokes . . . :whoknows:



:D



-----
I say the same things over because they're the truth.


Get rid of Orton, it's best for the team.

topscribe
06-24-2011, 01:52 PM
What are the other scenarios, then?

You're seriously suggesting the possibility of Denver resigning Orton to serve as a stopgap? Because I'm sure he'll just leap at the opportunity to sign a 2-3 year contract for a team with a savior as his backup in a city that wants to see the kid play. And how will the team know that Tebow blows if they keep playing Orton? I mean, did you really put any thought into this post?

They're not resigning Orton and they're sure as Hell not franchising him. If he starts the entire season then he's gone and Denver begins anew at the position.

You don't know any of that. Nearly everything you wrote here is speculation,
yet you stated it as fact.

Regarding Tebow, I realize there are a bunch of fans panting and drooling to
see him on the field. However, I can't help but to believe that to the majority
of fans winning trumps seeing him play. I realize that, if Orton is playing and
the Broncos are not winning, they will be calling for Tebow, and that is
understandable. But that will have to happen first if Fox in fact names Orton . . .

-----

Lonestar
06-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Just about everyone on here knows that Orton isn't a QB you build your team around. Going 6-10 with Tebow and actually evaluating what he has to offer as opposed to going 7-9 with Orton and having NO clue what Tebow is worth for another season is absolute INSANITY, and it won't fly with Broncos fans as Orton will be booed more this season.
Not to mention that Kyle is a free agent at the end of this season and will walk for nothing, it makes all the sense in the world to trade Orton, bring in a free agent VETERAN backup QB to mentor the youngsters, and move forward as a team and an organization from the debacle that was Josh McDaniels.

So let's see if I got this right. Another team would want this stiff (if I got your drift about him correct) to mentor their youngin, but he could not do the same for us? Why would they be that stupid? If what you say is true about him being a loser.

T.K.O.
06-24-2011, 01:53 PM
I was able to see it eventually

and the video ?:laugh:

topscribe
06-24-2011, 01:53 PM
I say the same things over because they're the truth.


I guess to each of us, our personal opinion is the "truth." :coffee:

-----

NorCalBronco7
06-24-2011, 01:54 PM
You're not living in reality, dude.

Im not sure you understand Fox and his affinity towards vets.


So what is better a QB who is great on the practice field and sucks it up on the field during games and will be gone next season? Or a QB being groomed to be a possible franchise QB and only experience on the field will show how high his ceiling can be and potential is, and if he is the franchise guy or not?

Only reason Orton would win competition during training camp is because he is not under pressure. But losing first couple games will cost him starting position anways.

Well, with those two sencearios its a win/win.....right? :lol:

You know whats more important, WINNING!

T.K.O.
06-24-2011, 01:55 PM
nmauv8ps_Zs

Shananahan
06-24-2011, 01:57 PM
Im not sure you understand Fox and his affinity towards vets.
Are you just arguing with me on this for the sake of supporting Orton, or do you actually believe there is a way the team will resign him?

Have you put any real thought into this?

BroncoNut
06-24-2011, 01:58 PM
and the video ?:laugh:

yes. good video, impressive. I think his run threat alone will really open up his game. I still dont feel 8-10 carries in a game is "appropriate" for any qb at this level. not averaging anyway. He might be one of those types that might have a tough time controlling that impulse. I like what he did there though