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View Full Version : Thoughts after a biting loss (Lenghty, sorry)



ydave77
11-02-2008, 07:37 PM
Well I just have to put down my thoughts on "paper". Might help me feel better...if you feel like reading them go for it.

1) Why do we have Paymah line up with an 8 yr cushion from their receiver. Greg Camarillo caught the hitch pattern in front of him too many times to count. Its like giving them a free 8 yrd play any time they want it. Camarillo is not a fast receiver so why so afraid of being burned by him. In fact I would argue letting a team march down the field with ten 8 yard plays are more defeating to a team than giving up one 80 yrd play. Its just disheartening. Also of note, Paymah's int came on a play where he was playing press covg to the line of scrimmage.

2) What exactly is wrong with Cut? Maybe I was drinking the kool-aid a little with his first few games. I am by no means giving up on him, and still feel like he has the talent to be a HOF QB, but at this point certainly not the execution. Perhaps my hopes, and the bar was set too high by his amazing performance the first few weeks, but that last few have been disheartening. I hope he does more work learning to read coverages better, and looking to the second, and third reads. Hopefully that will come with time. A little unrelated, but annoying is his propensity to throw the ball flat footed, instead of stepping up into the throw.
I like to make excuses for Cut, bc he is one of my favorite players and the best one for todays performance, was the lack of a running game, which brings me to my next point.

3) What has happened to the Denver running game? Yes Miami has an excellent run D, but the 15 or so yrds we managed it is down right pathetic. Maybe our young O-line has done a good job protecting Cut, but has the emphasis on pass protection come at the expense of the running game? I am all for bigger O lineman, and I think protecting Cut should be our first priority, but maybe that means we can't get by with no name running back any longer. We need to look to getting a running back with actual talent, and not just one produced by the system, considering the system isnt functioning right now.

4) Kudos go out to Peyton Hillis who had an excellent game, and was a bright spot on offense. The catch on his long gainer was beautiful. Hands like that, shoudl just not be on a fullback. It also lends to wondering why we have buried him behind Larsen the last few games. Hopefully this has opened Shanny's eyes, and his playbook and he is our starting FB for years to come.

5) Good job by the defense overall in shutting down the run. Giving up 26 pts when your offense has turned the ball over three times isnt horrible. I feel if we coudl have had Paymah play closer to the LOS, and not allowed Camarillo all those yards, the game may have been even tighter. I am too angry to even discuss the 3rd and 19 play, so I wont.

6) Where was Marshall this game... I dont know what happened to him. They had good coverage on him, yes, and we have all gotten on Cut for forcing him the ball too much, but he is a big target, and I saw alot of plays where he was actually single covered. He needs to be given a chance ot make a play when they have single coverage on him.

7) Why dont we throw the deep ball more often? I have read many posts about how Cut needs to take what the D gives him, and thats true, I have no problem dinking and dunking, if its successful. The problem is, we havent been successful with that strategy lately. When our offense was exploding, we had alot of big plays. Maybe a few of the early year INT's have caused us to try to be more conservative, but thats the opposite of what we need. We need to reopen up the deep ball. Cut's interceptions were on medium routes, and I am glad we are throwing more that just short passes, but going long will open up the running game, as well as opening up the short passes. We have some speed with Royal, and Marshall, let them go deep, and lets see what happens.

8) I was glad to see Royal make a difference on special teams. I think its great we used him on KO returns, and see what he can do. Andre Hall is a straight ahead runner in the Kick return game, he'll get you the 25, but thats about it.

9) The Marshall PI call infuriated me. I dont understand how they can make that call with such little contact, on such a pivotal play. It was ridiculous, and unnecessary. It was a potential game changing play, and accounted for quite a swing, as Miami scored shortly after.


10) We need to stop the ealry issues we have in a game. Whether it means actually doing a pads on run through with the offense before the game, or something else as crazy. We have been killing ourselves, and earlythe last few weeks. We arent able to set up any momentum by shooting oursleves in the foot. Turnovers will at any point, but early on, they get your offense out of sync, and dont let you establish a rhythm. Then you begin pressing to make up for early mistakes, and that where you get in trouble. You can re-read this paragraph and sub in the word penalties for turnovers, for another important point.

11) My last thought is to for us to try to keep our chins up. This is a long season. Right now we're still in 1st place in the West, maybe that will only last a week or so more, but maybe it wont. We have alot of young guys, we need to keep learning, and growing, and hopefully can string together some wins, and make run.

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2008, 07:39 PM
Kudos to the defense that have played the last couple of games good enough to win by what our offensive standards are.

Unfortunately for them, our offensive standards have drastically changed over the course of the last month.

Northman
11-02-2008, 07:53 PM
Well I just have to put down my thoughts on "paper". Might help me feel better...if you feel like reading them go for it.

1) Why do we have Paymah line up with an 8 yr cushion from their receiver. Greg Camarillo caught the hitch pattern in front of him too many times to count. Its like giving them a free 8 yrd play any time they want it. Camarillo is not a fast receiver so why so afraid of being burned by him. In fact I would argue letting a team march down the field with ten 8 yard plays are more defeating to a team than giving up one 80 yrd play. Its just disheartening. Also of note, Paymah's int came on a play where he was playing press covg to the line of scrimmage.

In short, we have no real depth at CB. Furthermore, this isnt just about Paymah. This is about the scheme the DC is using out there. The only reason Champ doesnt get picked on is because of his reputation but he does the same thing.


2) What exactly is wrong with Cut? Maybe I was drinking the kool-aid a little with his first few games. I am by no means giving up on him, and still feel like he has the talent to be a HOF QB, but at this point certainly not the execution. Perhaps my hopes, and the bar was set too high by his amazing performance the first few weeks, but that last few have been disheartening. I hope he does more work learning to read coverages better, and looking to the second, and third reads. Hopefully that will come with time. A little unrelated, but annoying is his propensity to throw the ball flat footed, instead of stepping up into the throw.
I like to make excuses for Cut, bc he is one of my favorite players and the best one for todays performance, was the lack of a running game, which brings me to my next point.

Not sure what has happened but his propensity to turnover the ball is becoming a weekly issue. I dont know if there is an injury or if he is just doubting himself mentally. Hopefully he snaps out of it.


3) What has happened to the Denver running game? Yes Miami has an excellent run D, but the 15 or so yrds we managed it is down right pathetic. Maybe our young O-line has done a good job protecting Cut, but has the emphasis on pass protection come at the expense of the running game? I am all for bigger O lineman, and I think protecting Cut should be our first priority, but maybe that means we can't get by with no name running back any longer. We need to look to getting a running back with actual talent, and not just one produced by the system, considering the system isnt functioning right now.

We still need some work on the Oline, we definitely need a better RB than what we have in the stable currently. But, there are other needs that need to be addressed first.


4) Kudos go out to Peyton Hillis who had an excellent game, and was a bright spot on offense. The catch on his long gainer was beautiful. Hands like that, shoudl just not be on a fullback. It also lends to wondering why we have buried him behind Larsen the last few games. Hopefully this has opened Shanny's eyes, and his playbook and he is our starting FB for years to come.

Love Hillis, i liked it when we drafted him and i love it that its paying dividends right now.


5) Good job by the defense overall in shutting down the run. Giving up 26 pts when your offense has turned the ball over three times isnt horrible. I feel if we coudl have had Paymah play closer to the LOS, and not allowed Camarillo all those yards, the game may have been even tighter. I am too angry to even discuss the 3rd and 19 play, so I wont.

But dont forget this is Miami who is also rebuilding. Aside from the upside of Ginn they for the most part have no real receivers even though we made the other boy look like Jerry Rice.


6) Where was Marshall this game... I dont know what happened to him. They had good coverage on him, yes, and we have all gotten on Cut for forcing him the ball too much, but he is a big target, and I saw alot of plays where he was actually single covered. He needs to be given a chance ot make a play when they have single coverage on him.

I wonder if all the talk about him zoning in on Marshall may have played a part of his thought process today. But, its also not rocket science to understand that teams will force us to use the other receivers and in a lot of ways it was good to get Jay to look somewhere else. My only concern is Brandon's near meltdown regarding not getting the ball enough. That has TO written all over it. Brandon is going to have to understand he wont always have a great game.


7) Why dont we throw the deep ball more often? I have read many posts about how Cut needs to take what the D gives him, and thats true, I have no problem dinking and dunking, if its successful. The problem is, we havent been successful with that strategy lately. When our offense was exploding, we had alot of big plays. Maybe a few of the early year INT's have caused us to try to be more conservative, but thats the opposite of what we need. We need to reopen up the deep ball. Cut's interceptions were on medium routes, and I am glad we are throwing more that just short passes, but going long will open up the running game, as well as opening up the short passes. We have some speed with Royal, and Marshall, let them go deep, and lets see what happens.

We definitely should of stretched the field more in this game. Im really surprised that Shanny has gone away from taking some shots down field. Its almost as if his playcalling has resorted back to a conservative gameplan. I too think we need to stretch the field more, especially if the running game is being as stagnant as it has been.


8) I was glad to see Royal make a difference on special teams. I think its great we used him on KO returns, and see what he can do. Andre Hall is a straight ahead runner in the Kick return game, he'll get you the 25, but thats about it.

Royal should of been our ST player from the get go. Guys like Dexter Jackson and Desean Jackson are doing both as well and doing well.


9) The Marshall PI call infuriated me. I dont understand how they can make that call with such little contact, on such a pivotal play. It was ridiculous, and unnecessary. It was a potential game changing play, and accounted for quite a swing, as Miami scored shortly after.

Bad call, but thats football. We got a call to go our way early in the year so im hardly in a position as a fan to get all up in arms about that one. Both plays impacted the games they were called in.


10) We need to stop the ealry issues we have in a game. Whether it means actually doing a pads on run through with the offense before the game, or something else as crazy. We have been killing ourselves, and earlythe last few weeks. We arent able to set up any momentum by shooting oursleves in the foot. Turnovers will at any point, but early on, they get your offense out of sync, and dont let you establish a rhythm. Then you begin pressing to make up for early mistakes, and that where you get in trouble. You can re-read this paragraph and sub in the word penalties for turnovers, for another important point.

I would settle with fixing the turnover issue over anything else. Limit your turnovers and your chances to winning the game go up drastically.


11) My last thought is to for us to try to keep our chins up. This is a long season. Right now we're still in 1st place in the West, maybe that will only last a week or so more, but maybe it wont. We have alot of young guys, we need to keep learning, and growing, and hopefully can string together some wins, and make run.

I still have faith but right now this team is going in the wrong direction and with the injuries we have to certain players it doesnt look promising. But, as long as i still see fight in them i cant complain.

JKcatch724
11-02-2008, 07:56 PM
I agree with every note there, ydave77.

WIbroncofan
11-02-2008, 07:59 PM
I don't know why we didn't try a little bubble screen or something to get Marshall involved. Just toss it out to him and let him get his hands on the ball.

Our offense has had three good games all year (first three) and has looked average to below average since.

Our D played decent today and I was happy they didn't get run all over.

The fact of the matter is that we are an average team. We have a young QB who makes too many mistakes right now and we have a bad defense which right now is not getting much help from the offense. When the D only gives up 1 TD we should be able to win.

Maybe we are really missing Scheffler.

ChampWJ
11-02-2008, 08:00 PM
Kudos to the defense that have played the last couple of games good enough to win by what our offensive standards are.

Unfortunately for them, our offensive standards have drastically changed over the course of the last month.

No pass rush, easy underneath completions, Brown had a long run, their guys could hold all day without being flagged.

3rd and 19, 3rd and whatever, it doesn't matter. Our defense used to be bend and not break. Now its just bend, bend some more, let the offense have 12 or 13 short plays to keep a drive moving, and pretend you don't know what happened when they score.

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 08:08 PM
Two reasons. Slowik sucks and we cannot give up turnovers if we wanna win.

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2008, 08:09 PM
No pass rush, easy underneath completions, Brown had a long run, their guys could hold all day without being flagged.

3rd and 19, 3rd and whatever, it doesn't matter. Our defense used to be bend and not break. Now its just bend, bend some more, let the offense have 12 or 13 short plays to keep a drive moving, and pretend you don't know what happened when they score.

Bend but not break means give up yards, but not TD's.

Jay Cutler gave Miami just as many TD's in 1 throw then our defense did all game.

When Jay Cutler was throwing INT's, and our defense was coming out and limiting those int's to a 3 and out FG, we're they "bending", or "breaking"?

Neither. They were holding off the offenses attempts to throw the game away.

ChampWJ
11-02-2008, 08:11 PM
Bend but not break means give up yards, but not TD's.

Jay Cutler gave Miami just as many TD's in 1 throw then our defense did all game.

When Jay Cutler was throwing INT's, and our defense was coming out and limiting those int's to a 3 and out FG, we're they "bending", or "breaking"?

Neither. They were holding off the offenses attempts to throw the game away.

That's fine if you want to stick to that mindset. But let me ask you this: Who posesses more promise for the future, Cutler or the defense?

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 08:15 PM
also the playcalling at times were laughable on offense. It got better in the second half.
But when you play playaction and you cannot run for shit, who the hell goes on playaction?

Thats Madden football. People call you cheater as you blitz on third and long and take down the playaction.

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2008, 08:17 PM
That's fine if you want to stick to that mindset. But let me ask you this: Who posesses more promise for the future, Cutler or the defense?

Cutler has possessed promise for the future for 3 years now. In 3 years, does he still possess promise for the future?

Is he regressing? Last year at this time he was the best 25 and under QB. Now he's being outplayed by a rookie, and has been passed by other age equivalent QB's like Trent Edwards, Aaron Rodgers, and dare I say...Matt Cassell?

JKcatch724
11-02-2008, 08:21 PM
That's fine if you want to stick to that mindset. But let me ask you this: Who posesses more promise for the future, Cutler or the defense?

That question is irrelevant IMO. The real question is: Who showed up TODAY?

ChampWJ
11-02-2008, 08:21 PM
Cutler has possessed promise for the future for 3 years now. In 3 years, does he still possess promise for the future?

Is he regressing? Last year at this time he was the best 25 and under QB. Now he's being outplayed by a rookie, and has been passed by other age equivalent QB's like Trent Edwards, Aaron Rodgers, and dare I say...Matt Cassell?

How long did it take some of the greatest QB's in history to really be great? Longer than 2 complete seasons of starts in most cases. He has everything you want, and when he puts it all together he could be the best QB in the league.

Please tell me you understand that Cassell's stats are skewed because he played our sorry defense.

ChampWJ
11-02-2008, 08:22 PM
That question is irrelevant IMO. The real question is: Who showed up TODAY?

Kind of a dumb question considering neither Cutler or the defense really did much today. :confused:

Northman
11-02-2008, 08:24 PM
Cutler has possessed promise for the future for 3 years now. In 3 years, does he still possess promise for the future?

Is he regressing? Last year at this time he was the best 25 and under QB. Now he's being outplayed by a rookie, and has been passed by other age equivalent QB's like Trent Edwards, Aaron Rodgers, and dare I say...Matt Cassell?


The most damaging stat is in our 4 wins he has a Qb rating of 90% or above. In the losses its under 80%. Also, in our 4 wins he has only 2 Ints as opposed to 8 Ints in the losses. Obviously, those dont include his actual fumbles but the other stats are just mind blowing. :tsk:

JKcatch724
11-02-2008, 08:26 PM
Kind of a dumb question considering neither Cutler or the defense really did much today. :confused:

Not a dumb question at all... The defense did their job despite Cutler's best efforts to make it hard on them.

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 08:27 PM
Not a dumb question at all... The defense did their job despite Cutler's best efforts to make it hard on them.

how the heck can you say they did their job when they give up an 8 plus minutes drive in the fourth quarter with third and long?
I dont understand.

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2008, 08:27 PM
How long did it take some of the greatest QB's in history to really be great? Longer than 2 complete seasons of starts in most cases. He has everything you want, and when he puts it all together he could be the best QB in the league.

Please tell me you understand that Cassell's stats are skewed because he played our sorry defense.

He doesn't have everything you want. He has a problem with not looking through his reads, and he has very questionable decision making. There isn't anyone that can deny that.

Yea he has potential. He better be putting up similar numbers to what he is. He has arguably the best WR in the NFL to throw the ball too, and an emerging young rookie in Royal. He also has one of the NFL's best receiving TE's in SCheffler, and one of the better olines in the NFL. Should we add Hillis to that list?

Cutler has potential. He has ability. He also already has a great supporting cast around him. None of those are question marks. The only question mark is, when does the offense, that has ability, put up consistent numbers every week, and give the team a chance to win every Sunday. Because that hasn't happened yet.

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2008, 08:28 PM
how the heck can you say they did their job when they give up an 8 plus minutes drive in the fourth quarter with third and long?
I dont understand.

They didn't do their job. Just like the offense didn't do their job when they couldn't score a TD when they had the ball the last 4 minutes of the game.

Offense had more then enough time to score a TD, and then have a chance at the onside kick.

girler
11-02-2008, 08:28 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself, ydave. :salute:

JKcatch724
11-02-2008, 08:36 PM
how the heck can you say they did their job when they give up an 8 plus minutes drive in the fourth quarter with third and long?
I dont understand.

They gave up one touchdown. They did enough to win the game. That, to me, is doing your job.

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 08:40 PM
They gave up one touchdown. They did enough to win the game. That, to me, is doing your job.

They didnt. They stop them on that third and nineteen and they do their job.
They didnt.

JKcatch724
11-02-2008, 08:47 PM
They didnt. They stop them on that third and nineteen and they do their job.
They didnt.

So who do you blame more for the loss? Cutler or the D?

I mean, I'm pretty sure Cutler is responsible for giving up more points.

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 08:47 PM
So who do you blame more for the loss? Cutler or the D?

I mean, I'm pretty sure Cutler gave up more points.

both.

Mike
11-02-2008, 08:52 PM
Defense played better than I hoped for. Cutler and the running game worse than I could have imagined.

I would like to think that the offensive minds could come up with a little more imagination, especially with 2 weeks to work on it. I haven't seen a shred of offensive creativity since week 2.

Northman
11-02-2008, 08:59 PM
Defense played better than I hoped for. Cutler and the running game worse than I could have imagined.

I would like to think that the offensive minds could come up with a little more imagination, especially with 2 weeks to work on it. I haven't seen a shred of offensive creativity since week 2.

No kidding, in week 2 we take the risk and go for 2 to win the game but come up way conservative in the game today. I mean, if we are going to let the chains loose let them loose. :confused:

ChampWJ
11-02-2008, 09:02 PM
So who do you blame more for the loss? Cutler or the D?

I mean, I'm pretty sure Cutler is responsible for giving up more points.

Last I checked, Cutler is not out there by himself. He has 10 other people out there who were not getting open, not stopping blitzes, not being able to run, getting penalized more than I can count, etc etc etc. But it's all on Cutler. :rolleyes:

Dreadnought
11-02-2008, 09:04 PM
Good post, Dave. On top of everything else it was Marshall's worst game as a pro - that deep ball in the EZ should have been caught, period. He got no seperation at all, all game long.

Michael Pittman looked sluggish and old today, not that he got a lick of blocking either. Just awful on offense apart from Peyton Hillis

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 09:14 PM
Last I checked, Cutler is not out there by himself. He has 10 other people out there who were not getting open, not stopping blitzes, not being able to run, getting penalized more than I can count, etc etc etc. But it's all on Cutler. :rolleyes:

if you mean me, my point is that as Cutler goes we go. He cannot throw three interceptions the way he does. He has to play more conservative when the play isnt there. That is what Brady, Manning and Brees do.

And there are other people to blame, but when Cutler throws two ints on the three first drives, he ruins the whole gameplan.
Marshall sucked. In fact he pouted and that is unacceptable. The run blocking was horrible. But we cannot turn the ball over like we have done in these losses.

As other people here say. Just throw the ball away.

ChampWJ
11-02-2008, 09:23 PM
if you mean me, my point is that as Cutler goes we go. He cannot throw three interceptions the way he does. He has to play more conservative when the play isnt there. That is what Brady, Manning and Brees do.

And there are other people to blame, but when Cutler throws two ints on the three first drives, he ruins the whole gameplan.
Marshall sucked. In fact he pouted and that is unacceptable. The run blocking was horrible. But we cannot turn the ball over like we have done in these losses.

As other people here say. Just throw the ball away.

I did not mean you, and that is a great post. I just can't get over some people totally blaming Cutler for things when there were so many other contributing factors. Cutler clearly needs to get his confidence back, but of all things hurting this team, I still think we are going to be set at the QB position for a long time.

haroldthebarrel
11-02-2008, 09:29 PM
I did not mean you, and that is a great post. I just can't get over some people totally blaming Cutler for things when there were so many other contributing factors. Cutler clearly needs to get his confidence back, but of all things hurting this team, I still think we are going to be set at the QB position for a long time.

Cutler has to learn two things to take the next step. dont stare down the receiver and throw the ball away.
He is close, but he is not ready to take a team on his shoulders consistently yet. I love the guy, but he should learn what Campbell this year and Plummer the year we went to the AFCC did. Dont turn the ball over.

Heck every frigging Madden game we play is usually determined by TOs.

We are a fraud this year, we kinda knew that before the season, but we also know that we usually also play better the final third of the season.

hamrob
11-02-2008, 10:01 PM
Does anybody think that...just maybe Shanny might want to take the play-calling back? I mean....Jeremy Bates was calling good games to start the year...but this offense has been flat since the Saints game. Cutler doesn't look like he's having much fun...could it be...that he doesn't agree with the play calls?

JKcatch724
11-02-2008, 10:05 PM
Last I checked, Cutler is not out there by himself. He has 10 other people out there who were not getting open, not stopping blitzes, not being able to run, getting penalized more than I can count, etc etc etc. But it's all on Cutler. :rolleyes:

No, he's not out there all by himself. I saw the 10 other guys. I saw the line have stupid penalties. I saw receivers drop balls.

I ALSO saw Cutler throw three completely avoidable picks, all of which led to either immediate or easy scores. The picks were ALL on Cutler. He locks onto a receiver and doesn't see the defenders in position to make a play. He could have easily thrown one or two more, too.

So if you want to blame the running game, or the penalties, or defense, or anything else, go ahead. Pretty simple. Cutler keeps turning the ball over like this, doesn't matter how good our defense is. We will keep losing.

dogfish
11-03-2008, 01:37 AM
good stuff dave, wish you'd post here more often. . .





1) Why do we have Paymah line up with an 8 yr cushion from their receiver?

i'll take "because bob slowik is a ******* idiot" for five-hundred please, alex. . . he seems paralyzed by fear of giving up long plays-- that's the only reason i can think of for having a bunch of man corners and playing either weak zones or such loose man coverage that it may as well be a zone, except they don't have the same help they would in zone. . .

2) What exactly is wrong with Cut? Perhaps my hopes, and the bar was set too high by his amazing performance the first few weeks, but that last few have been disheartening.

it IS disheartening, but i think you answered your own question. . . young QBs tend to grow in fits and starts. . . when things aren't going well, jay tends to revert to bad habits-- that third INT was nothing but pure frustration. . . i suspect that he knows he hasn't played up to par recently, and that he's letting it bother him more than he should. . .

3) What has happened to the Denver running game?

again, i think you answered your own question. . . not that many guys could have done a lot with today's blocking, but overall there's no doubt in my mind that we need to get a legitimate NFL back in here-- time to stop dicking around, thinking we can get by with these end-of-the-roster scrubs. . . yea, we've got a good, proven system in place, but it's not infalliable, and with half the NFL running the ZBS it's not the unique challenge it was 5-7 years ago. . .

7) Why dont we throw the deep ball more often?

that's a good question. . . we have good receivers, and we have good pass protection. . .





Good post, Dave. On top of everything else it was Marshall's worst game as a pro - that deep ball in the EZ should have been caught, period. He got no seperation at all, all game long.



except for that brilliant 75-yard TD strike that was called back on one of the worse phantom pass interference penalties that i've ever seen. . .


:frusty: