PDA

View Full Version : 4 years later........



Pages : [1] 2 3

claymore
10-31-2008, 07:29 PM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.

claymore
10-31-2008, 07:30 PM
BTW, TB in the second round? We made fun of Washington for awhile, but damn, they had the last laugh for sure.

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 07:32 PM
Champ's not being well used. I love CP. It was a crap shoot. I agree, it didn't really work out, I don't know Clay, the playcalling with the weapons of Cutler, Marshall, Royal, etc. probably would have issued a similar scheme even with a stud like Clinton in the backfield..

claymore
10-31-2008, 07:35 PM
Champ's not being well used. I love CP. It was a crap shoot. I agree, it didn't really work out, I don't know Clay, the playcalling with the weapons of Cutler, Marshall, Royal, etc. probably would have issued a similar scheme even with a stud like Clinton in the backfield..

Hind sight etc etc, our roster would have looked different, hell we wouldnt have cutler most likely. But Plummer might be a HOF bound QB too.

I love you BTW., :drinking:

Lonestar
10-31-2008, 07:44 PM
poorti$$$ would have never stayed in DEN..

he wanted to be the highest paid RB and called Den a hick town once he was gone.

We actually got the last laugh IMO..

To bad mikey has his head so far up his rectum that he has not fixed the Defense around Champ.

Champ is class and poorti$$$ is classless

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 07:46 PM
poorti$$$ would have never stayed in DEN..

he wanted to be the highest paid RB and called Den a hick town once he was gone.

We actually got the last laugh IMO..

To bad mikey has his head so far up his rectum that he has not fixed the Defense around Champ.

Champ is class and poorti$$$ is classless

that's another good point. Portis didn't want to stay in Denver from my understanding..

SR
10-31-2008, 07:47 PM
Clay are you out of your damn mind?

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 07:48 PM
I feel kinda bad for Champ.

Benetto
10-31-2008, 07:53 PM
I'd rather have Champ...He's won games for us (our only playoff win since John), and has the passion to play for the Broncos. Portis was demanding too much...You don't demand money/contracts when you play RB in Denver...We were producing 1K RBs as easy as breathing.

claymore
10-31-2008, 07:59 PM
Clay are you out of your damn mind?


I feel kinda bad for Champ.


I'd rather have Champ...He's won games for us (our only playoff game since John), and has the passion to play for the Broncos. Portis was demanding too much...You don't demand money/contracts when you play RB in Denver...We were producing 1K RBs as easy as breathing.

Champ isnt a pure guy. From what a family member would know, and is in the know.

Portis would have gone anywhere that paid him a 50 million dollar contract.

And SR No, Im not out of my mind. As many games as we have played, how many has champ won for us? I can think of 2. Yes they throw to the other side of the field, but guess what, they throw to the other side of the field with very good success.

Same with running etc....

In all reality Champ makes the biggest difference on ST's... He has saved 3-5 TD's this year on ST's.

Im sure Portis would score a hell of allot more TD's than Champ saves.

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:03 PM
Champ isnt a pure guy. From what a family member would know, and is in the know.

Portis would have gone anywhere that paid him a 50 million dollar contract.

And SR No, Im not out of my mind. As many games as we have played, how many has champ won for us? I can think of 2. Yes they throw to the other side of the field, but guess what, they throw to the other side of the field with very good success.

Same with running etc....

In all reality Champ makes the biggest difference on ST's... He has saved 3-5 TD's this year on ST's.

Im sure Portis would score a hell of allot more TD's than Champ saves.
Champ has been used wrong the past 2.5 years.

No passes coming his way has a lot to do with TD's being scored, because BLY SUCKS.

claymore
10-31-2008, 08:11 PM
Champ has been used wrong the past 2.5 years.

No passes coming his way has a lot to do with TD's being scored, because BLY SUCKS.

Not including how Champ has been used. I am including how Portis would have been used.

Portis has scored roughly 41 TD's since he has left. On a mostly shit Redskins team. Champ's existence cannot equal 41TDs since he has been here. Our Defense sucked to bad.

By that, I am saying, he gets thrown at maybe once or twice a game. Because the rest of our defense sucks so bad, that they dont even have to try and mix it up. They can run the same damn play every play all game long. Shit, the whole 16 game schedule can consist of thew same play, and we would be helpless to stop it.

So...... How does Champ help us?

We might as well throw someone over there, that doesnt cost anything.

Its like having the best kicker ever, ever to play the game, but he never gets to kick field goals.

PatricktheDookie
10-31-2008, 08:13 PM
We've been to one more conference championship game than Washington has since the trade.

Game. Set. Match.

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:13 PM
Not including how Champ has been used. I am including how Portis would have been used.

Portis has scored roughly 41 TD's since he has left. On a mostly shit Redskins team. Champ's existence cannot equal 41TDs since he has been here. Our Defense sucked to bad.

By that, I am saying, he gets thrown at maybe once or twice a game. Because the rest of our defense sucks so bad, that they dont even have to try and mix it up. They can run the same damn play every play all game long. Shit, the whole 16 game schedule can consist of thew same play, and we would be helpless to stop it.

So...... How does Champ help us?

We might as well throw someone over there, that doesnt cost anything.

Its like having the best kicker ever, ever to play the game, but he never gets to kick field goals.


I get what you're saying, but to me RB is such a disposable position compared to a shut down corner who plays to tackle, and can grab a pick 6 at any moment.

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:14 PM
So up until this year Bailey had the lead by far but since Portis play better this year the trade was an epic failure?

You usually make much sense claymore but this is pure idiocy!

The only thing it has proven is that no secondary can live any longer without talent up front.

claymore
10-31-2008, 08:16 PM
I get what you're saying, but to me RB is such a disposable position compared to a shut down corner who plays to tackle, and can grab a pick 6 at any moment.

I agree. And if Our D was slightly better, I wouldnt even post this trash. My whole point is that our D sucks so bad, that it is a waste of Champs time.

Plus we have almost had a curse since CP left... Yes we have had 100 yard rushers, but just barley.

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:16 PM
But I tell you what is an epic failure.

I have suggested over the years better defensive cordinators than we have hired.
If that isnt room to concern I dont know what is.

SR
10-31-2008, 08:16 PM
And SR No, Im not out of my mind. As many games as we have played, how many has champ won for us? I can think of 2. Yes they throw to the other side of the field, but guess what, they throw to the other side of the field with very good success.

Same with running etc....

In all reality Champ makes the biggest difference on ST's... He has saved 3-5 TD's this year on ST's.



Last time I checked, how many games ONE player has won for the team, outside of a QB, WR, or RB, is not a relevant stat. Champ shuts down an entire half of the field every time he steps on the grass. It isn't his fault that the opposite CB is incompetent. Champ more than holds his own in the run game. He tackles better than most safeties. If you think we would be better off with Clinton Portis then I think you're out of your mind.

claymore
10-31-2008, 08:18 PM
But I tell you what is an epic failure.

I have suggested over the years better defensive cordinators than we have hired.
If that isnt room to concern I dont know what is.

I agree. It isnt a salary capped spot, so why pay a RB 50 Million when a D coordinator can win the SB.

I want this shit performanced based. For Coaches, players and owners. Id rather buy a jersey for 80 dollars if we were winning than 80 if we are losing etc...

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 08:20 PM
this is a pointless thread. what could have been, should have been, whatever. NFL, not for long. So many factors of the game to work on and who knows when everything is going to come together, if they ever will. You should take a real good look at yourself Clay, cause I dont' like what I see.

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:21 PM
Hey, if you guys keep calling Clay an Idiot or saying his thoughts are worthless...Im gonna grab my stuff and leave.:protest:

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:21 PM
I agree. It isnt a salary capped spot, so why pay a RB 50 Million when a D coordinator can win the SB.

I want this shit performanced based. For Coaches, players and owners. Id rather buy a jersey for 80 dollars if we were winning than 80 if we are losing etc...

Great coaches dont count against a salary cap.

We could have had Gregg Williams but we chose the wrong one.
We should probably, and I warned about it, not have fired Coyer.

Nolan is out there and nobody in his right man should think Slowik will create a great defense over time.

Shanahan usually learns, it is just that he learns a little late for my liking.

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:22 PM
Hey, if you guys keep calling Clay an Idiot or saying his thoughts are worthless...Im gonna grab my stuff and leave.

What about calling you an idiot? Will you leave or stay then?:listen:

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:23 PM
What about calling you an idiot? Will you leave or stay then?:listen:
I will just shed a tear and stay.

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 08:23 PM
Hey, if you guys keep calling Clay an Idiot or saying his thoughts are worthless...Im gonna grab my stuff and leave.:protest:

grab your bags because he is the biggest POS I have EVER come across.

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:23 PM
Whos coming with me?

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:23 PM
I will just shed a tear and stay.

Thats idiotic.:D

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:24 PM
4 years later and im almost 30...

I wish I was still 24 :coffee:

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 08:24 PM
Whos coming with me?

drag Clay's incompetent azz outta here if you would please

tia

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:25 PM
I would never leave, my skin is too thick to fit through the door.

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 08:25 PM
I would never leave, my skin is to thik to fit through the door.

Your skin is too think?

Benetto
10-31-2008, 08:26 PM
Your skin is too think?


I fixed it like a split second...You responded faster than that...WOW:tsk:

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:26 PM
Your skin is too think?

Thats californians. If they cant think with their dick they think with their (fore)skin.

BroncoNut
10-31-2008, 08:27 PM
I fixed it like a split second...You responded faster than that...WOW:tsk:

I noticed that.

claymore
10-31-2008, 08:29 PM
Last time I checked, how many games ONE player has won for the team, outside of a QB, WR, or RB, is not a relevant stat. Champ shuts down an entire half of the field every time he steps on the grass. It isn't his fault that the opposite CB is incompetent. Champ more than holds his own in the run game. He tackles better than most safeties. If you think we would be better off with Clinton Portis then I think you're out of your mind.

Until we get an other CB, and Dline, and set of safeties Champ Bailey doesnt matter. Your right, its not his fault. But he is irrelevant to this team because the defense sucks so bad.

If they throw to the left, the middle, or right underneath off of Champs assignment, or if they run to the left, or middle, or right underneath away from Champs assignment, they will score.

They , and I mean any team in the NFL, do not have to deal with Champ because they have so many more options. Any team in the NFL can dominate us. With or without Champ Bailey.

I understand he is a stud, and I love the dude.

Simple fact is, he only gets to make a difference on Special Teams......... He just runs mock sprints for the whole game or makes a couple tackles.
Dude has had 3 TD's..... Averaged around 70 tackles a year, and had 25 INt's since he has been here.

Portis would have been far more productive for us than that.

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 08:34 PM
Four years later and I still believe that I and several of the people on this board could make better decisions as far as defensive and defensive coaching talent is concerned.

That's not a brag, it is an awful fact!

claymore
10-31-2008, 08:55 PM
Four years later and I still believe that I and several of the people on this board could make better decisions as far as defensive and defensive coaching talent is concerned.

That's not a brag, it is an awful fact!

I still hope, wish and pray that Sundquist was a bigger problem than we realized.

NightTrainLayne
10-31-2008, 09:07 PM
Until we get an other CB, and Dline, and set of safeties Champ Bailey doesnt matter. Your right, its not his fault. But he is irrelevant to this team because the defense sucks so bad.

If they throw to the left, the middle, or right underneath off of Champs assignment, or if they run to the left, or middle, or right underneath away from Champs assignment, they will score.

They , and I mean any team in the NFL, do not have to deal with Champ because they have so many more options. Any team in the NFL can dominate us. With or without Champ Bailey.

I understand he is a stud, and I love the dude.

Simple fact is, he only gets to make a difference on Special Teams......... He just runs mock sprints for the whole game or makes a couple tackles.
Dude has had 3 TD's..... Averaged around 70 tackles a year, and had 25 INt's since he has been here.

Portis would have been far more productive for us than that.

Clay I'm with you that Champ is wasted on this defense, but I'm not sure that makes the trade itself bad. I still think the trade was a good play, but we just haven't followed up to add on to that success.



Having Champ on this defense is like having a kick-ass, super-expensive diamond ring on the finger of your wife who sleeps around with everyone else in town. . . .Doh!

claymore
10-31-2008, 09:09 PM
Clay I'm with you that Champ is wasted on this defense, but I'm not sure that makes the trade itself bad. I still think the trade was a good play, but we just haven't followed up to add on to that success.



Having Champ on this defense is like having a kick-ass, super-expensive diamond ring on the finger of your wife who sleeps around with everyone else in town. . . .Doh!

That is a great freakin anology. That whore wife could have a tinfoil ring, and still screw us.

In the end all Im saying is we would be allot better off this year with Cutler and Portis.

Even thought that is impossible........... but Whatever. :D

silkamilkamonico
10-31-2008, 09:46 PM
We screwed the pooch by not addressing RB seriously.

You don't make a trade and then completely ignore the position.

RB's are a dime a dozen in the NFL.

claymore
10-31-2008, 09:52 PM
We screwed the pooch by not addressing RB seriously.

You don't make a trade and then completely ignore the position.

RB's are a dime a dozen in the NFL.
Yes and no........... I Think we got big heads with our scheme. Yes Ruben droughns got a 1000 yards......... He was more valuable on kick returns than trade or free agency.

weazel
10-31-2008, 11:31 PM
I think it is a good trade for both teams. Of course you are going to notice an offensive players stats over a defensive players.

Champ is awesome, but you can't damn a raging river with one log.

haroldthebarrel
10-31-2008, 11:56 PM
What is certain is that if we somehow manage to get a decent defensive line within two years, people will say that champ made a huge comeback and we once again won that trade.
Football is a team sport. A team can make the sum better than its parts.

btw speaking of defensive line. The CFL leader or number two guy in sacks was a former Giant. Coincidence, I think not.

BroncoTech
11-01-2008, 12:56 AM
I'll take Champs attitude over CP's attitude any day. Both are game breakers but I saw some sideline shots of Portis the last couple of weeks that let's me know he's never grown up.

Lonestar
11-01-2008, 02:26 AM
What is certain is that if we somehow manage to get a decent defensive line within two years, people will say that champ made a huge comeback and we once again won that trade.
Football is a team sport. A team can make the sum better than its parts.

btw speaking of defensive line. The CFL leader or number two guy in sacks was a former Giant. Coincidence, I think not.

How is he gonna break that DL line up at 241.. No wonder he is a former NYG>>>

haroldthebarrel
11-01-2008, 02:57 AM
How is he gonna break that DL line up at 241.. No wonder he is a former NYG>>>

my point is that the Giants know to find talent but even more so know how to train their fundamentals so even the second tier players are pretty good.

lex
11-01-2008, 05:42 AM
Until we get an other CB, and Dline, and set of safeties Champ Bailey doesnt matter. Your right, its not his fault. But he is irrelevant to this team because the defense sucks so bad.

If they throw to the left, the middle, or right underneath off of Champs assignment, or if they run to the left, or middle, or right underneath away from Champs assignment, they will score.

They , and I mean any team in the NFL, do not have to deal with Champ because they have so many more options. Any team in the NFL can dominate us. With or without Champ Bailey.

I understand he is a stud, and I love the dude.

Simple fact is, he only gets to make a difference on Special Teams......... He just runs mock sprints for the whole game or makes a couple tackles.
Dude has had 3 TD's..... Averaged around 70 tackles a year, and had 25 INt's since he has been here.

Portis would have been far more productive for us than that.

Awesome job with this thread. Your spot on. Where were you a few months ago when we had a similar discussion and I upset people by saying exactly what youre saying now. Its good to see others weighing in on this.

Here is the thing: in Denver, the RB might be the best utilized position in all of football. In Denver the skills of the RB are amplified like few positions on any team across the league. And the RB is absolutely and completely relevant because we decide how often he gets the ball and so the other team can't avoid him. Thats not the case with CB. The quality of your worst CB in many ways is as important as your best CB on the field. Not only that but the rules have made the CB less relevant to the extent that its really about the pass rush. And again, there is the issue of utility. Champ is a great player as Claymore points out, but he isnt made any better by being in Denver. In fact, we make him worse because we minimize his impact on the game. So far this season, our CBs are on pace for 3 INTs. In Denver that doesnt really happen with RBs. The risk of diminishing utility doesnt really exist with RBs in Denver.

lex
11-01-2008, 05:45 AM
I'll take Champs attitude over CP's attitude any day. Both are game breakers but I saw some sideline shots of Portis the last couple of weeks that let's me know he's never grown up.

Ill take Portis' choice of DCs over Champs any day.

drewloc
11-01-2008, 06:32 AM
The thing people have to remember, is that we probably wouldn't be able to resign portis when he became a free agent. Granted straight up, Champs number of TD's and the other things he does well won't match up, due to the fact that Portis sees A LOT more of the ball than champ does. If champ got thrown at 20-25 times a game, I can almost guarantee that this wouldn't even be close.
Another thing to remember is that hindsight is always 20-20. This is almost like saying if we had drafted player x in 2003, we would be better in 2008. That may be true, but at this point, it's all just speculation and opinion.

56crash
11-01-2008, 12:34 PM
I think it is a good trade for both teams. Of course you are going to notice an offensive players stats over a defensive players.

Champ is awesome, but you can't damn a raging river with one log.

Oh hell Portis is playing better you want to bet the guy will hold out next year ... He wants one last mega deal ! what did he do the last 3 years....:elefant:

Poet
11-01-2008, 01:34 PM
A cover cornerback is far harder to find than a real good RB.

Portis was also a player who has had health issues. Bailey is a player who has stayed on the field more than Portis has.

This would not be an issue if Denver decided to take a real RB in the draft. At some point you learn that the teams who win the SB with a RB by committee type deal are few and fair between.

slim
11-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Clay :tsk:

Back to the lounge, son.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-01-2008, 01:45 PM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.

I love ya Clay, but damn yer wrong on this one. I have 1 question for ya:

Since the trade, who made it to more Conference Championship games...Denver or Washington?


The D as a whole may suck lately, but ya have to consider all 4 years. We clearly won this trade.

Slick
11-01-2008, 01:51 PM
The thing people have to remember, is that we probably wouldn't be able to resign portis when he became a free agent. Granted straight up, Champs number of TD's and the other things he does well won't match up, due to the fact that Portis sees A LOT more of the ball than champ does. If champ got thrown at 20-25 times a game, I can almost guarantee that this wouldn't even be close.
Another thing to remember is that hindsight is always 20-20. This is almost like saying if we had drafted player x in 2003, we would be better in 2008. That may be true, but at this point, it's all just speculation and opinion.

I agree drew

IMO the trade went down for two reasons...one because we watched Roc Alexander give up a million yards passing in a playoff game against the Colts...two, because Coach didn't want to tie up the kind of money it would have taken to resign Clinton at the time.

Ziggy
11-01-2008, 02:18 PM
Portis running behind the lines we have had prior to this season would have been in the training room more than the field. He's also a me first player, which we don't need any more of here. It was a good trade for us.

lex
11-01-2008, 02:20 PM
A cover cornerback is far harder to find than a real good RB.

Portis was also a player who has had health issues. Bailey is a player who has stayed on the field more than Portis has.

This would not be an issue if Denver decided to take a real RB in the draft. At some point you learn that the teams who win the SB with a RB by committee type deal are few and fair between.

Even if thats true about finding a cover corner, there are still typically at least 2 other WRs on a given play to throw to. And then too there exists the problem of rule changes, the result of which is an increased imporance of having a pass rush and cover corners being less effective.

Lonestar
11-01-2008, 04:15 PM
A cover cornerback is far harder to find than a real good RB.

Portis was also a player who has had health issues. Bailey is a player who has stayed on the field more than Portis has.

This would not be an issue if Denver decided to take a real RB in the draft. At some point you learn that the teams who win the SB with a RB by committee type deal are few and fair between.


Those that win SB have a good to great Defense.. RB's are nice but DL rules forever..

Most DL type players have a 6-12 year life span whereas the average RB is about 3.5 years..

I'll take a Micheal Strahan or Arron Sobell any day over a poorti$$$.. And probably save $2 mil a year...

lex
11-01-2008, 05:00 PM
Those that win SB have a good to great Defense.. RB's are nice but DL rules forever..

Most DL type players have a 6-12 year life span whereas the average RB is about 3.5 years..

I'll take a Micheal Strahan or Arron Sobell any day over a poorti$$$.. And probably save $2 mil a year...

Running backs also take less time to become assimilated to the pro game. And your generalizations about RBs fall short in that we're talking about a Portis and Bailey. Not a RB and a CB, or a RB and a DL. And the truth is that Portis has been a durable RB. He's missed some time from injury but so has Champ the last couple of years and Champ isnt toting the ball 20 times a game.

claymore
11-01-2008, 06:05 PM
Those that win SB have a good to great Defense.. RB's are nice but DL rules forever..

Most DL type players have a 6-12 year life span whereas the average RB is about 3.5 years..

I'll take a Micheal Strahan or Arron Sobell any day over a poorti$$$.. And probably save $2 mil a year...

I would to. But a CB trade in hindsight is silly.

Timmy!
11-01-2008, 06:22 PM
Champ>Dr. Do Itch Big.


/thread

SmilinAssasSin27
11-01-2008, 06:27 PM
If we don't make that trade, Portis bolts for the $$ and Shanny is still trying to draft his shutdown CB...or get one from Cleveland.

DenBronx
11-01-2008, 07:47 PM
i was furious when we let reggie hayward go and was even more furious when we traded portis. we would have put up more points no doubt but its really hard to argue against a cb that can cover 1/3 of the field all by himself. bailey rarely gets thrown to and he is playing on a very bad denver broncos defense.

here's the frustrating part. yes we traded for bailey but we left a void a rb and didnt fill it. i know there were many good powerhouse rbs through the years that we have passed up since portis left. mikey was very arrogant on this.

OMorange&blue
11-01-2008, 10:53 PM
Thanks for the laugh clay! That was solid.

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:33 AM
OK... Champs been out a couple weeks... Have we really missed him? I dont think we have.

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:36 AM
OK... Champs been out a couple weeks... Have we really missed him? I dont think we have.

Oh yeah. I would be completely happy with Jack Williams and Karl Paymah.:rolleyes:

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:40 AM
CLay, you are my friend, and I love you, but quit eating your homo boi's shrooms.

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:41 AM
CLay, you are my friend, and I love you, but quit eating your homo boi's shrooms.

He is plum friggin loco this morning Beef.

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:42 AM
Oh yeah. I would be completely happy with Jack Williams and Karl Paymah.:rolleyes:

I think we might have lost the game if Champ was in there.

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:42 AM
He is plum friggin loco this morning Beef.

Clay is under a lot of stress. This much we know. I am going to ignore his idotic rant about purging our best defensive player.

He does have a nice F150, though, CSWIL.

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:43 AM
CLay, you are my friend, and I love you, but quit eating your homo boi's shrooms.
Bare with me, I have a gut feeling about this. Or I might have to take a dump. One of the 2.

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:43 AM
I think we might have lost the game if Champ was in there.

I think you have been huffing spray paint out behind the shed this morning.

:shocked:

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:43 AM
Bare with me, I have a gut feeling about this. Or I might have to take a dump. One of the 2.

Get some breakfast off the rat wagon or whatever and go read the St. Pete Times on the handicrapper.

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:44 AM
Clay is under a lot of stress. This much we know. I am going to ignore his idotic rant about purging our best defensive player.

He does have a nice F150, though, CSWIL.

Well, F150s carry some serious cred in my book.

Clay, we are F150 brothers now. A bond that will never be broken until you go buy a foreign crossover SUV or a Liberty.

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:44 AM
I think you have been huffing spray paint out behind the shed this morning.

:shocked:

Thats messed up you know Im in recovery. :tsk:

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:45 AM
Well, F150s carry some serious cred in my book.

Clay, we are F150 brothers now. A bond that will never be broken until you go buy a foreign crossover SUV or a Liberty.

What kinda cab are you rockin? 4x4 or not?

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:45 AM
Thats messed up you know Im in recovery. :tsk:

Sorry. Probably just whiteout or rubber cement at your desk then.

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:45 AM
What kinda cab are you rockin? 4x4 or not?

Extended cab, 4x4, 5.4L V8.

Poet
11-19-2008, 09:45 AM
How many good to great Rbs are there in this league?


How many good to great CBs are there in this league?

You can be a real good RB and sit on the bench like Michael Turner, Rudi Johnson, Sammy Morris, the list goes on.

If you are a good CB you will rarely be on the bench.

You should have been able to trade away Portis and get a great HOF. You did. You also should have been able to replace a really good player easily. My god, running backs are expendable.

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:47 AM
Extended cab, 4x4, 5.4L V8.

Where is the oil filter located?

Rex
11-19-2008, 09:48 AM
Where is the oil filter located?

Under the engine.

CoachChaz
11-19-2008, 09:50 AM
Maybe without Champ out there, the opposing QB thinks he can look at both sidea of the field and therefore takes more time to decide what to do, thus allowing our stud pass rushers to get to him...or something like that.

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:52 AM
Maybe without Champ out there, the opposing QB thinks he can look at both sidea of the field and therefore takes more time to decide what to do, thus allowing our stud pass rushers to get to him...or something like that.

COach, what are your thought on eventually moving Champ to safety?

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:52 AM
Under the engine.

Oh man that is tough. Sorry man.

broncofaninfla
11-19-2008, 09:53 AM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.

I disagree, I still feel we got the better end of this deal.

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:56 AM
Extended cab, 4x4, 5.4L V8.

I have the exact same thing. If you say you have dual exhaust, we may need to take this to PM. :love:

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 09:58 AM
I have the exact same thing. If you say you have dual exhaust, we may need to take this to PM. :love:

I wonder when your guy's engines are going to blow.

claymore
11-19-2008, 09:59 AM
Maybe without Champ out there, the opposing QB thinks he can look at both sidea of the field and therefore takes more time to decide what to do, thus allowing our stud pass rushers to get to him...or something like that.


I disagree, I still feel we got the better end of this deal.

As ridiculous as it sounds... And I know CB is by far our best player on D, and maybe on the team.... He is a hinderance here. His cap numbers are ridiculous. We cant even use him.

And I dont know if Coach was serious, but I really think Opposing Offense's are excited they only have to game plan around 2/3'rds of the field. They can sit back there for 5 seconds and throw anywhere from the middle to the left.

With him out, they have more check downs etc.

claymore
11-19-2008, 10:00 AM
I wonder when your guy's engines are going to blow.

I think you need some ass, your testosterone is at record highs if you say something mean like that.,

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:04 AM
I wonder when your guy's engines are going to blow.

Hahahahaha.

You Toyota truck guys are hilarious.

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 10:04 AM
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/1-10-07-ford-f150-crash-1.gif

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:05 AM
I think you need some ass, your testosterone is at record highs if you say something mean like that.,

He changed his own oil on Monday. Got a deal at Pep Boys. He spent 3 hours flexing in the mirror when he got done.

claymore
11-19-2008, 10:08 AM
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/1-10-07-ford-f150-crash-1.gif

You should see what it did to the toyota. :shocked:

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 10:09 AM
He changed his own oil on Monday. Got a deal at Pep Boys. He spent 3 hours flexing in the mirror when he got done.

CSWIL, someday I will show you where your alternator is.

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:10 AM
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/1-10-07-ford-f150-crash-1.gif

http://www.tigertruck.com/hybrid/trucks.jpg

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 10:11 AM
CSWIL, I don't get it. Are you pissed your warranty is about to be worthless?

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:11 AM
CSWIL, someday I will show you where your alternator is.

Put your wiener back in your pants.

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:11 AM
CSWIL, I don't get it. Are you pissed your warranty is about to be worthless?


I am not pissed about anything.

Give me a call when you need to be pulled out.

claymore
11-19-2008, 10:13 AM
I am not pissed about anything.

Give me a call when you need to be pulled out.

I think Beef is pissed his truck cherry was popped in the Beer Shed parking lot by a certain forum members F-150.

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 10:13 AM
I am not pissed about anything.

Give me a call when you need to be pulled out.

I drive on the highway just like you. When are you getting a V12 to pull DC's jetski?

BeefStew25
11-19-2008, 10:15 AM
I think Beef is pissed his truck cherry was popped in the Beer Shed parking lot by a certain forum members F-150.

Oh no you did not just say that. No you did not.

I am done here. You guys are ganging up on me.

See you next week. CSWIL, I am sure you are pissed Cutty is playing well you you you boner.

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:16 AM
I drive on the highway just like you. When are you getting a V12 to pull DC's jetski?

Because DC is on it!:shocked:

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:17 AM
I think Beef is pissed his truck cherry was popped in the Beer Shed parking lot by a certain forum members F-150.


Did he have to stick his head out of the back window?

CoachChaz
11-19-2008, 10:18 AM
I actually pick up my new F-150 this weekend. I'll join in on the gang bang once it's official.

claymore
11-19-2008, 10:21 AM
Did he have to stick his head out of the back window?
Na, he stuck it in the extended cab portion, it was sprinkiling outside.

I actually pick up my new F-150 this weekend. I'll join in on the gang bang once it's official.

I think its almost like being a Marine Chaz, we have hats and T-shirts and everything.

GEM
11-19-2008, 10:25 AM
Put it this way Clay.....

Where would our defense be without Champ? Sure, they don't throw to him, but he doesn't just play the pass. He's excellent against he run and he knows how to tackle. Had Portis stayed here, who knows if he would have stayed healthy. We damn sure know that he would have ended up in Mikey's doghouse for the interviews and showboating. And honestly...has he been all that special in Washington? He's been good, but he isn't the top of his position like Champ. Portis is NOT hof bound. Had Champ been used correctly the past couple years, this wouldn't even be a conversation. He's done well with what he has been given without big mouth complaints.

Rex
11-19-2008, 10:26 AM
Put it this way Clay.....

Where would our defense be without Champ? Sure, they don't throw to him, but he doesn't just play the pass. He's excellent against he run and he knows how to tackle. Had Portis stayed here, who knows if he would have stayed healthy. We damn sure know that he would have ended up in Mikey's doghouse for the interviews and showboating. And honestly...has he been all that special in Washington? He's been good, but he isn't the top of his position like Champ. Portis is NOT hof bound. Had Champ been used correctly the past couple years, this wouldn't even be a conversation. He's done well with what he has been given without big mouth complaints.

After I read.....

"Put it this way Clay...." , all I could think of was boobs and didnt get through the rest.:D

GEM
11-19-2008, 10:28 AM
Well, F150s carry some serious cred in my book.

Clay, we are F150 brothers now. A bond that will never be broken until you go buy a foreign crossover SUV or a Liberty.

What if he hits the lottery and buys a Cayenne?

GEM
11-19-2008, 10:32 AM
After I read.....

"Put it this way Clay...." , all I could think of was boobs and didnt get through the rest.:D

What's new? :laugh:

Shazam!
11-19-2008, 10:44 AM
I am iffy with this, but I can see why people think this way, and I agree to an extent.

Champ seems like he is under-utilized because the Denver DL has largely been a joke. The best year he had was in '05 when the D brought pressure, from the blitz. Since then, Denver has been a laughing stock defensively, for whatever the reason (playcalling, injuries, inept DLine, lack of talent, coaching, whatever.) This has put enormous pressure on him. Plus, now he is practically the lone bright spot in the Secondary.

I agree Denver offensively hasn't been the same since they haven't had a dynamic feature Back to start 16 games.

As long as we can keep Champ happy and he doesn't want to play elsewhere it's a good deal. Denver can always Draft some RBs, but All Star CBs come around like QBs. However, if a team that was a few positions away made an offer that couldn't be refused for him, I couldn't blame the Broncos for dealing him if they got a lot in return.

People who think maybe they should have unloaded CP for a bunch of Draft Picks, I could see that too. But Denver's Drafting since has been suspect up to 2006, so if Mike dealt for picks back then, we would have been unhappy.

The Champ/Portis debate is the like fan's opinion of Jake Plummer. Every Broncos fan has a different take.

If Torain worked out and had started 10 Games and averaged 5.2 YPC and a bunch of TDs, this Thread wouldn't even exist.

claymore
11-19-2008, 10:52 AM
Put it this way Clay.....

Where would our defense be without Champ? Sure, they don't throw to him, but he doesn't just play the pass. He's excellent against he run and he knows how to tackle. Had Portis stayed here, who knows if he would have stayed healthy. We damn sure know that he would have ended up in Mikey's doghouse for the interviews and showboating. And honestly...has he been all that special in Washington? He's been good, but he isn't the top of his position like Champ. Portis is NOT hof bound. Had Champ been used correctly the past couple years, this wouldn't even be a conversation. He's done well with what he has been given without big mouth complaints.

He is great... Not taking anything away from him. But I think our team would be better with Portis right now, than it is with Champ.

Day1BroncoFan
11-19-2008, 11:02 AM
Portis?

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:05 AM
He is great... Not taking anything away from him. But I think our team would be better with Portis right now, than it is with Champ.

The trade was fine. All you guys needed to do was draft the easiest position in all of football to fill. I have no idea why you guys did not. Probably due to the fact that Denver is a place where anyone can run the ball well.

But the last time you guys had a real RB you won two Superbowls.

Trading away one of the better RBs in the game for the best CB in the game is never a bad thing. Champ Bailey in his prime was an iconic figure on the field. He is still damn good, although I doubt either Portis or Bailey are the players they once were.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-19-2008, 11:07 AM
It took me a long time to come to a thought on this, and I'm still not sure where to go. Champ is a future HOF, a GOAT at the position; but Portis is a pretty damn good running back as well. Champ has had some amazing highlights here, but our defense hasn't been great regardless if he's here or not.

With a lack of a pass rush, Champ never has and never will get to display his superior talents and what they could possibly be. Then again, hardly anyone throws in his direction in the first place. Champ's presence on the team does a lot of things, and there are invaluable things he can teach players that you don't necessarily read about in the stat books or press clippings.

He's a great player, but if I could go back in time -- I'd of kept Portis. In less than seven full seasons, he's accumulated over 10,000 total offensive yards; and he's still 27 years old. I expect had he been in Denver, he'd of averaged more per carry and could have been an annual 1,500 yard back for this squad.

Portis is heading to the Hall of Fame and the extent to his greatness still isn't measured.

With Portis you're getting a 1,250 yard rusher (average) per year, with some great support in the passing game. He averages 10 touchdowns per season as well and makes a huge difference on the field offensively.

With Champ, you get a shut down corner who will get the occasional game changing pick and perhaps a pick six every now and then. Teams still throw the ball on the Broncos and do so effectively, regardless of his presence or not.

There's no doubt in my mind anymore. Give me Clinton Portis and the Championship belt back.

claymore
11-19-2008, 11:07 AM
The trade was fine. All you guys needed to do was draft the easiest position in all of football to fill. I have no idea why you guys did not. Probably due to the fact that Denver is a place where anyone can run the ball well.

But the last time you guys had a real RB you won two Superbowls.

Trading away one of the better RBs in the game for the best CB in the game is never a bad thing. Champ Bailey in his prime was an iconic figure on the field. He is still damn good, although I doubt either Portis or Bailey are the players they once were.

I dont know, maybe things would have been bettwer if DW was never shot. I liked him allot better than Bly.

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:09 AM
I dont know, maybe things would have been bettwer if DW was never shot. I liked him allot better than Bly.

Bly is garbage and was never that great of a CB. When you are a good player on an awful team it is not hard at all to standout.

claymore
11-19-2008, 11:09 AM
It took me a long time to come to a thought on this, and I'm still not sure where to go. Champ is a future HOF, a GOAT at the position; but Portis is a pretty damn good running back as well. Champ has had some amazing highlights here, but our defense hasn't been great regardless if he's here or not.

With a lack of a pass rush, Champ never has and never will get to display his superior talents and what they could possibly be. Then again, hardly anyone throws in his direction in the first place. Champ's presence on the team does a lot of things, and there are invaluable things he can teach players that you don't necessarily read about in the stat books or press clippings.

He's a great player, but if I could go back in time -- I'd of kept Portis. In less than seven full seasons, he's accumulated over 10,000 total offensive yards; and he's still 27 years old. I expect had he been in Denver, he'd of averaged more per carry and could have been an annual 1,500 yard back for this squad.

Portis is heading to the Hall of Fame and the extent to his greatness still isn't measured.

With Portis you're getting a 1,250 yard rusher (average) per year, with some great support in the passing game. He averages 10 touchdowns per season as well and makes a huge difference on the field offensively.

With Champ, you get a shut down corner who will get the occasional game changing pick and perhaps a pick six every now and then. Teams still throw the ball on the Broncos and do so effectively, regardless of his presence or not.

There's no doubt in my mind anymore. Give me Clinton Portis and the Championship belt back.
Great Post. Thank you for articulating that for me. And who knows, if Portis would have remained he might be a HOF lock like Champ will be.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-19-2008, 11:13 AM
I think Portis is a HOF lock regardless. He's going to rush for more than 10,000 yards (easily) and will have several thousand of receiving yards to boot. On top of that, he'll break 100 career touchdowns. You don't find many players who average 113 yards per game for seven years of their career when they're constant offensive stalwarts for their team. Let's just say he hits 30 and breaks down, he'll probably have over 15,000 yards of total offense -- assuming he's just "average" the next three years.

I'm not even factoring what he'll do the next six games either. Portis is a stud.

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:17 AM
It took me a long time to come to a thought on this, and I'm still not sure where to go. Champ is a future HOF, a GOAT at the position; but Portis is a pretty damn good running back as well. Champ has had some amazing highlights here, but our defense hasn't been great regardless if he's here or not.

With a lack of a pass rush, Champ never has and never will get to display his superior talents and what they could possibly be. Then again, hardly anyone throws in his direction in the first place. Champ's presence on the team does a lot of things, and there are invaluable things he can teach players that you don't necessarily read about in the stat books or press clippings.

He's a great player, but if I could go back in time -- I'd of kept Portis. In less than seven full seasons, he's accumulated over 10,000 total offensive yards; and he's still 27 years old. I expect had he been in Denver, he'd of averaged more per carry and could have been an annual 1,500 yard back for this squad.

Portis is heading to the Hall of Fame and the extent to his greatness still isn't measured.

With Portis you're getting a 1,250 yard rusher (average) per year, with some great support in the passing game. He averages 10 touchdowns per season as well and makes a huge difference on the field offensively.

With Champ, you get a shut down corner who will get the occasional game changing pick and perhaps a pick six every now and then. Teams still throw the ball on the Broncos and do so effectively, regardless of his presence or not.

There's no doubt in my mind anymore. Give me Clinton Portis and the Championship belt back.


The problem is that much of his early success came from running on the Denver offensive line.
http://www.nfl.com/players/clintonportis/profile?id=POR792942

He ran for 1500 yards twice on your line. Bad players run for 1k-1.2k on your line. Then he went to the Skins and put up 1.3k and 1.5k there. That's all well and good. However, those are not staggering numbers. in 2006 he got hurt and put up 600 yards. Not his fault, he got hurt. Last season he put up 1.2k yards. That is completely average IMO for a full time RB on a running team with a decent line.

Champ Bailey on the other hand makes a difference on every play. You and others cite that he cannot do everything he can to show his talent because of his supporting cast. The fact that he still beasts it up on a horrific defense is one thing. The fact that this is the situation and the supporters of Portis acknowledge that it is close either is another big deal. It's close and Portis has a good cast and Bailey has crap awful players around him? If you put him on the Steelers forget about it. If you put him on the Titans you could forget about it.

The simple fact is that you cannot punish Bailey for Shanahan not drafting the easiest position in all of football well. You can't punish him for having one DE that is worth a crap, no DT's that are worth a crap, and a piss poor scheme.

If you put Bailey on a decent defense it would be no contest Bailey.


I honestly don't think it comes close. If you guys drafted a decent back this would go down as one of the best trades of all time.

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:18 AM
I think Portis is a HOF lock regardless. He's going to rush for more than 10,000 yards (easily) and will have several thousand of receiving yards to boot. On top of that, he'll break 100 career touchdowns. You don't find many players who average 113 yards per game for seven years of their career when they're constant offensive stalwarts for their team. Let's just say he hits 30 and breaks down, he'll probably have over 15,000 yards of total offense -- assuming he's just "average" the next three years.

I'm not even factoring what he'll do the next six games either. Portis is a stud.

Lock? In his prime he wasn't even better than Shaun Alexander. He could get in, but he certainly is not even close to a lock.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-19-2008, 11:23 AM
I'm not trying to punish Champ. Love the guy. Fact is, I'd rather have a running back who can get 1,500 yards rushing and receiving combined a year and make a difference offensively as opposed to a guy who will lock down one side of the field, yet can't do enough (not his fault) to make this defense a top five unit in the league.

Champ hasn't been on the field the past few games and we've been winning. I'd like to think if Clinton Portis was our running back this season and in seasons past, we'd be doing some awesome things on offense. Even more awesome than now.

The impact and reward for Portis in this offense and on this team is probably much higher than we get with Champ. IMHO. Denver has a bunch of no-names and Dre Bly playing corner and we've been able to win some games. Even with Champ, Denver still had to go to the CB well multiple times in the 2005 draft.

Just sort of *shrugs* -- whatever.

Gimme CP.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-19-2008, 11:26 AM
Lock? In his prime he wasn't even better than Shaun Alexander. He could get in, but he certainly is not even close to a lock.

I don't think it's a good comparison given Alexander's scenario; and that Portis never got to realize his "potential" in a system where he was dominating as a first and second year player. I fully believe that Clinton could have put up 1,500 + and 20 touchdown seasons with Denver as he matured. In fact, I think he could do it now.

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm not trying to punish Champ. Love the guy. Fact is, I'd rather have a running back who can get 1,500 yards rushing and receiving combined a year and make a difference offensively as opposed to a guy who will lock down one side of the field, yet can't do enough (not his fault) to make this defense a top five unit in the league.

Champ hasn't been on the field the past few games and we've been winning. I'd like to think if Clinton Portis was our running back this season and in seasons past, we'd be doing some awesome things on offense. Even more awesome than now.

The impact and reward for Portis in this offense and on this team is probably much higher than we get with Champ. IMHO. Denver has a bunch of no-names and Dre Bly playing corner and we've been able to win some games. Even with Champ, Denver still had to go to the CB well multiple times in the 2005 draft.

Just sort of *shrugs* -- whatever.

Gimme CP.


What I am saying is that one of those guys plays a position that is easily replaced. You may not get a guy who can get 1500 yards a year on your line in the first or second every year. But those players come along far more frequently than a CB like Bailey.

There are systems in this league like Denver, Seattle to an extent, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore that are always going to be easy to run in. No such system exists for a CB.

If the Broncos drafted a real RB this would not even be a conversation.

You are able to win some regular season games against poor competition. However, I think Bailey's worth shows up in games in the playoffs like that one against the Patriots a few years back.

Day1BroncoFan
11-19-2008, 11:33 AM
I'd like to have a better RB but I'm not so sure Portis is the one we need. Maybe if we'd have kept him. That's water under the bridge.

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:37 AM
I don't think it's a good comparison given Alexander's scenario; and that Portis never got to realize his "potential" in a system where he was dominating as a first and second year player. I fully believe that Clinton could have put up 1,500 + and 20 touchdown seasons with Denver as he matured. In fact, I think he could do it now.

I think it is a very apt scenario. Alexander on average put up 1400 a year with 10 plus TDs. His best year ever was one of the best seasons any NFL player has ever had. He will end up with 10k yards for a career and already has 100 TDs.

BroncoJoe
11-19-2008, 11:45 AM
Throw out his injured year (2006) and this year since it's not complete yet, and Portis averages nearly 1,750 yards/season and 12 touchdowns.

Lonestar
11-19-2008, 11:54 AM
The problem is that much of his early success came from running on the Denver offensive line.
http://www.nfl.com/players/clintonportis/profile?id=POR792942

He ran for 1500 yards twice on your line. Bad players run for 1k-1.2k on your line. Then he went to the Skins and put up 1.3k and 1.5k there. That's all well and good. However, those are not staggering numbers. in 2006 he got hurt and put up 600 yards. Not his fault, he got hurt. Last season he put up 1.2k yards. That is completely average IMO for a full time RB on a running team with a decent line.

Champ Bailey on the other hand makes a difference on every play. You and others cite that he cannot do everything he can to show his talent because of his supporting cast. The fact that he still beasts it up on a horrific defense is one thing. The fact that this is the situation and the supporters of Portis acknowledge that it is close either is another big deal. It's close and Portis has a good cast and Bailey has crap awful players around him? If you put him on the Steelers forget about it. If you put him on the Titans you could forget about it.

The simple fact is that you cannot punish Bailey for Shanahan not drafting the easiest position in all of football well. You can't punish him for having one DE that is worth a crap, no DT's that are worth a crap, and a piss poor scheme.

If you put Bailey on a decent defense it would be no contest Bailey.


I honestly don't think it comes close. If you guys drafted a decent back this would go down as one of the best trades of all time.



This is the key to the whole argument.. we drafted speed and not a decent RB..

I remember all the har hars about how stupid Snyder was when we made the trade and then when fumbell was drafted it got even worse.. It was hailed as the all time dumb trade and mikey was put on a pedestal as the mastermind of trading......

Had he not sucked in the draft department he would still be on that pedestal..

poorti$$$$ was in it for himself wanted big bucks, highest paid RB while he was just the 5th best at the position at the time.. He hated the "hick town" DEN and wanted to be flamboyant with his sideline crap and dressing up like a hooker..

anyone with half a brain knew he would never stay in DEN.

We got perhaps the GOAT at CB if not the best one of the top 4-5 ever. unless injury cuts his career short or we never get a decent DL a sure HOF CB..

Has mikey screwed the pooch on defense absolutely..

But it is not Champs fault, he has for the most part taken away his side of the field, has lead the DB's in tackles for much of his DEN stay. God only knows how bad our run defense would have been had Champ not been on the field the past few years.. HE also took that side of the field away on run defense..

Do we have to think back to lenny walls and the other scrub we had back there and fall on our knees and give thanks that poorti$$$$ was stupid and forced a player trade.....

lex
11-19-2008, 01:27 PM
What I am saying is that one of those guys plays a position that is easily replaced. You may not get a guy who can get 1500 yards a year on your line in the first or second every year. But those players come along far more frequently than a CB like Bailey.

There are systems in this league like Denver, Seattle to an extent, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore that are always going to be easy to run in. No such system exists for a CB.

If the Broncos drafted a real RB this would not even be a conversation.

You are able to win some regular season games against poor competition. However, I think Bailey's worth shows up in games in the playoffs like that one against the Patriots a few years back.

Yeah, the playoff game that wouldnt have been as close had we not struggled running the ball. Its more important to have two good CBs than one great one. And its always good to have a good running game.

Lonestar
11-19-2008, 01:33 PM
Yeah, the playoff game that wouldnt have been as close had we not struggled running the ball. Its more important to have two good CBs than one great one. And its always good to have a good running game.

but for almost a decade we did not have 2 decent CB's let alone good ones...

I'd rather have ONE HOF caliber guy and a decent one if they can ever fix the real problem of this defense and that is NO PASS Rush.. without sending everyone BUT the two CB's..

shank
11-19-2008, 02:01 PM
i agree that if tatum would have worked out better, there would be no discussion.

portis was more of a speed back when we drafted him as well, but his game adapted to the NFL, where TB's never seemed to and he was held back by all the nagging injuries.

if we would have somehow ended up with julius jones or michael turner (both drafted in 04 with tatum) who could have consistently put up more yards and pounded in some TDs, then this thread wouldn't exist.

Retired_Member_001
11-19-2008, 02:50 PM
You guys do realize we basically traded Clinton for Champ AND Bly?

underrated29
11-19-2008, 03:49 PM
yes ti was an awesome trade. Wook is right.

We got champ and dre for portis. Plus had we been a middle of the pack team at drafting it would have been an insane trade. Champ and dre on any team, like um the giants, would dominate....No team would be able to score on them.

sadly we didnt do that. Also like someone else said, turner could have been ours, marion barber could have been ours, instead we took the wrong back and now are paying for it.

Imagine turner or marion B here, with champ and dre. It would go down as the all time greatest trade ever made.

I am glad me made the trade, and only wish we would have handled things after it a little better.

Cheers to us righting the battleship and dominating in the near future, for the foreseable future.

NameUsedBefore
11-19-2008, 04:47 PM
We got to the AFC Championship sans-Portis. Given that at the time we had no problem running with the likes of Droughns and Anderson and that Bailey had essentially saved our season a few times as well as practically won the Patriots game, I think we got out ahead. Nevermind that our running game really never lost a step once Portis left; but our pass-defense definitely improved.

OMorange&blue
11-19-2008, 10:49 PM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.

Sorry I'm late.

One word:

inane.

MOtorboat
11-19-2008, 11:22 PM
I'll take Champ over Portis every day of the week, and on Sundays.

Poet
11-19-2008, 11:49 PM
Yeah, the playoff game that wouldnt have been as close had we not struggled running the ball. Its more important to have two good CBs than one great one. And its always good to have a good running game.

The Patriots had a great defense. It would have been hard to run on them with any back. Especially since that was the last defense of theirs that was actually "good" in the sense that it was more than veteran players and a nice scheme. It was good because most of their players were still in the last year/s of their prime.

If you trade a good Rb for a great CB why do you hold CB accountable for the failures of the coach/gm/owner?

I don't understand the mentality of that. RB is the easiest position in football to replace. You of all teams have proven that. CB could very well be the hardest position next to QB and maybe MLB.

omac
11-20-2008, 12:15 AM
Portis is great, but up until 2005, our rushing offense was pretty solid even without him. The decline had more to do with our linemen getting older and injured.

Young, Hall, Pittman, and now Torrain seem to be good enough, and Torrain seemed to be getting better and better, but they couldn't stave off injury. If we do get a RB in the draft, I want one that doesn't have any injury history.

Day1BroncoFan
11-20-2008, 12:19 AM
We haven't had an RB that lasted more than half the games out of a season for a while now.

omac
11-20-2008, 01:22 AM
We haven't had an RB that lasted more than half the games out of a season for a while now.

Yeah, you can include last season too; Henry, Young, Hall ... we need a durable back.

Poet
11-20-2008, 03:56 AM
Yeah, you can include last season too; Henry, Young, Hall ... we need a durable back.

Out of the time that Henry missed, how much of that was due to his issues with the legal system and Goodell?

lex
11-20-2008, 08:40 AM
We got to the AFC Championship sans-Portis. Given that at the time we had no problem running with the likes of Droughns and Anderson and that Bailey had essentially saved our season a few times as well as practically won the Patriots game, I think we got out ahead. Nevermind that our running game really never lost a step once Portis left; but our pass-defense definitely improved.

It was Bell and Anderson in 2005, not Droughns.

lex
11-20-2008, 08:52 AM
but for almost a decade we did not have 2 decent CB's let alone good ones...

I'd rather have ONE HOF caliber guy and a decent one if they can ever fix the real problem of this defense and that is NO PASS Rush.. without sending everyone BUT the two CB's..

This is poppycock. I think you may be one of the last people to finally realize that the 12 yard cushions on 3rd and 5 undermine any pass rush we may hope to achieve.

We would have been better off keeping Portis and trying to find tow solid CBs.

Lonestar
11-20-2008, 11:46 AM
This is poppycock. I think you may be one of the last people to finally realize that the 12 yard cushions on 3rd and 5 undermine any pass rush we may hope to achieve.

We would have been better off keeping Portis and trying to find tow solid CBs.


Obviously you have me confused with someone that does not understand FOOTBALL..

I have always been pissed about not playing bump and ruin.. since the first time our CB were burnt game after game by QB throwing underneath or CB for easy completions.. The first time I remember being ballistic on the forums was against manning in the 2003 playoff games.. When everyone else was ragging on the CB's being bad it was my commentary about needing a pass rush to make it work.. I still maintain our CB's could be very good with a good pass rush..

Our CB's have been abused for the past decade at least because of NO threat on the DLINE..

mikey has always been an advocate of having a LB based defense fast and hard tackling.. with the emphasis on being fast..

OUR CB's are fast enough to play bump and run and recover if the WR should get behind them.. to constantly allow the completion underneath them does nothing IMO but allow the offense all day to tire out the defense.. I'd rather allow the occasional long pass completion than allow a consistent nickle and diming us to death with underneath passes..

Getting back to my original premise I'd rather have an all world HOF Champ and someone decent on the other side than poorti$$$$ the clown on offense..

topscribe
11-20-2008, 11:51 AM
4 years later and im almost 30...

I wish I was still 24 :coffee:

That's six years . . . :confused:

-----

claymore
11-20-2008, 11:58 AM
That's six years . . . :confused:

-----

Your arena is English Top, this is the new math.

topscribe
11-20-2008, 03:56 PM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.

We have to remember that the Broncos sent Portis for Champ PLUS a 2nd
round draft choice.

The mistake did not lie in the acquisition of Champ for Portis, but in the
acquisition of Tater for the 2nd. Tater was supposed to be the back to
replace Portis. (Two selections later, BTW, Dallas took Julius Jones.) So
maybe the problem was not the trade. Maybe it was the draft (i.e., Sunquist
was still here, and Goodman was not) and the second part of the Broncos'
plan blew up?

Just another angle . . .

-----

broncofaninfla
11-20-2008, 04:37 PM
Does anybody know what Washington's win loss record is since the trade? How about ours?

MOtorboat
11-20-2008, 04:42 PM
Does anybody know what Washington's win loss record is since the trade? How about ours?

Denver, 45-29
Washington, 36-38

MOtorboat
11-20-2008, 04:46 PM
Does anybody know what Washington's win loss record is since the trade? How about ours?

With Portis in the lineup, Washington is 34-33
With Bailey in the lineup, Denver is 40-28

broncofaninfla
11-20-2008, 04:53 PM
Denver, 45-29
Washington, 36-38


We've won more games with Champ than they have with Portis. We got one of the best corners in the history of the game, who despite the constant scheme changes with each new DC, kept playing at a pro bowl level year in and year out. Also Champ will be in the HOF when he retires, no way Portis gets the nod.

underrated29
11-20-2008, 05:11 PM
Yes, thats the angle TOP!


Here is another angle to think about.


Would you trade champ and our 2nd rdr for any runningback in the league today?

I sure as hell wouldnt. Not even for tomlinson. Our 2nd rdr could be used to get a guy like chris johnson, or past drafts of barber, brandon jacobs, JJ, etc.

We can get a RB to replace portis, so far we have just gone after the speed guys and not someone who can push the pile. Torain, hillis, pope, boyd are going to show that thats what we need.

Hobe
11-20-2008, 06:46 PM
Portis is doing good this year, but he has been little more then average the least few years. He would not have been worth the money he wanted.

topscribe
11-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Portis is doing good this year, but he has been little more then average the least few years. He would not have been worth the money he wanted.

To be fair, Washington is a pretty good team this year, not so much in previous years.

I believe Portis would have produced better in Denver's system, going by sheer talent.

Of course, there was the little attitude issue . . .

-----

Poet
11-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Portis is doing good this year, but he has been little more then average the least few years. He would not have been worth the money he wanted.

That is another great point. You would be shelling out monster bucks to someone who plays the position with the shortest life span. Once you hit 30 it's almost over.

WARHORSE
11-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.



No. I think you screwed the pooch all by yourself. lol

What has Portis done in Washington worth noting, except dress up, say stupid things in the media, and accept the biggest salary on his team?

It aint like hes runnin for 1500 over there.

We got WAY more out of the deal. Champ is CLASS.

Portis is CRASS.

We got a HOF corner.

Period.

:coffee:SLUUUURRRRRP!

JKcatch724
11-20-2008, 08:09 PM
I'm on the fence with this one. As much as I love Champ, Portis was great when he was here. Obviously Champ is a HOF corner and rightly so, but if Portis would have stayed he would be on track for the HOF too, IMO.

Secondly, I don't get where all these "bad attitude" accusations come from regarding CP. Yes, he wanted his money, and he deserved it. He was an All-Pro caliber back getting paid second round money. I don't recall him getting in any trouble off the field here or in Washington.

It's hard to say where we would be had this trade never happened, because we would have made completely different decisions as far as drafting and signing players (would we have drafted Cutler if we still had that stud RB?) So it's hard to say for me. On the other hand, finding a player like Champ at his position is INCREDIBLY hard to do through the draft, much harder than a good RB, so I can see why the decision was made.

Wish we had both. Ahhh in a perfect world....

BeefStew25
11-20-2008, 08:24 PM
Guys, we also got to pick Tatum Bell, and he is a valuable member of our team today.

topscribe
11-20-2008, 08:28 PM
Guys, we also got to pick Tatum Bell, and he is a valuable member of our team today.

Well, he does have an opportunity to demonstrate his value in the next game, doesn't he?

-----

JKcatch724
11-20-2008, 08:30 PM
Guys, we also got to pick Tatum Bell, and he is a valuable member of our team today.

Bief,

You are a moron and wrong about everything.

Signed,

Jr

Lonestar
11-20-2008, 08:33 PM
We have to remember that the Broncos sent Portis for Champ PLUS a 2nd round draft choice.

The mistake did not lie in the acquisition of Champ for Portis, but in the
acquisition of Tater for the 2nd. Tater was supposed to be the back to
replace Portis. (Two selections later, BTW, Dallas took Julius Jones.) So
maybe the problem was not the trade. Maybe it was the draft (i.e., Sunquist
was still here, and Goodman was not) and the second part of the Broncos'
plan blew up?

Just another angle . . .

-----

Everyone hailed it at the time as a steal we got the best CB in the league and a second for the 5th best RB (at the time) in the league.. each year when looking for talent everyone suggested getting in touch with Snyder all thought he was as goofy as Jerry Jones and al davis..

Had we taken anyone besides tater it would be looked back to as the second biggest steal in trading history except Hershel Walker to MIN for almost their every top pick for a decade :laugh::laugh:


But tater was take it to the house fast, he never did and was found to be a fragile, fumbelroski hack, tackled by the slightest touch type guy.. He had big shoes to fill in CP yardage stats.. and never did..

I'll say it again poorti$$$$$ was never happy here, he thought DEN was a hick town and would have been gone in a heart beat when his contract was over had he not been beyond stupid talking to reporters in HNL at the pro bowl..

pnbronco
11-20-2008, 08:38 PM
Champ is a HOF, a class act and a leader in the locker room. Portis was rude, thought he was HOF and hated it here in Denver and was not afraid to say it out loud. Portis forced the issue and was surprised when they called him on it. There is no way he could of stayed out of Shanny's dog house and then we would have been paying all this money for what.

It's been a bad year for RB's in Denver, but once they get that fixed it will be like before Portis who. Champ is the better deal.

JKcatch724
11-20-2008, 08:44 PM
It's been a bad year for RB's in Denver, but once they get that fixed it will be like before Portis who. Champ is the better deal.

Well how long has it taken to fix? Just sayin. Nobody's been close to his level since he left.

lex
11-20-2008, 10:35 PM
Obviously you have me confused with someone that does not understand FOOTBALL..

I have always been pissed about not playing bump and ruin.. since the first time our CB were burnt game after game by QB throwing underneath or CB for easy completions.. The first time I remember being ballistic on the forums was against manning in the 2003 playoff games.. When everyone else was ragging on the CB's being bad it was my commentary about needing a pass rush to make it work.. I still maintain our CB's could be very good with a good pass rush..

Well all thats nice but currently youd maintain being wrong. The regularity with which the CBs play with a 10+ yard cushion absolutely and completely undemines a pass rush, regardless of what you maintain. Though its nice to speak out of both sides of your mouth and say, they need to play bump and run but they also need a pass rush. The problem with that is that it fails to acknowledge the lack of necessity for the opposing QB to find a man rather than looking for a check down/dump off. Its true the pass rush and coverage interface with one another, but thats exactly why this year the pass rush is undermined by the coverage scheme. And again, apparently youre one of the last few to recognize that its hard to generate a pass rush when you provide the QB such an easy read.


Our CB's have been abused for the past decade at least because of NO threat on the DLINE..

mikey has always been an advocate of having a LB based defense fast and hard tackling.. with the emphasis on being fast..

Im talking about 2008 not the past decade.


OUR CB's are fast enough to play bump and run and recover if the WR should get behind them.. to constantly allow the completion underneath them does nothing IMO but allow the offense all day to tire out the defense.. I'd rather allow the occasional long pass completion than allow a consistent nickle and diming us to death with underneath passes..

With that in mind, its kind of surprising that you could have such expectations from the pass rush.


Getting back to my original premise I'd rather have an all world HOF Champ and someone decent on the other side than poorti$$$$ the clown on offense..


Thats great. Its the same old rhetoric you hear from practically everyone. Its kind of silly to fault Portis for being productive though. Thats the way the business works. And in case you havent noticed, we have been struggling to replace Portis. But to fault him for expecting money for production is a reflection of a naivete that fails to acknowledge its a business.

lex
11-20-2008, 10:39 PM
Champ is a HOF, a class act and a leader in the locker room. Portis was rude, thought he was HOF and hated it here in Denver and was not afraid to say it out loud. Portis forced the issue and was surprised when they called him on it. There is no way he could of stayed out of Shanny's dog house and then we would have been paying all this money for what.

It's been a bad year for RB's in Denver, but once they get that fixed it will be like before Portis who. Champ is the better deal.


Champ also was an advocate of Slowik and may have had the loudest voice in Slowik becoming our DC. Its quite possible, if not likely, that Champ also lobbied for his brother to be signed. I have no reason to say Champ is not a class act, but I also have no reason to acknowlege him as one. I know thats not the commonly held belief but its not the first time Ive questioned the majority.

Lonestar
11-20-2008, 11:00 PM
Well all thats nice but currently youd maintain being wrong. The regularity with which the CBs play with a 10+ yard cushion absolutely and completely undemines a pass rush, regardless of what you maintain. Though its nice to speak out of both sides of your mouth and say, they need to play bump and run but they also need a pass rush. The problem with that is that it fails to acknowledge the lack of necessity for the opposing QB to find a man rather than looking for a check down/dump off. Its true the pass rush and coverage interface with one another, but thats exactly why this year the pass rush is undermined by the coverage scheme. And again, apparently youre one of the last few to recognize that its hard to generate a pass rush when you provide the QB such an easy read.



Im talking about 2008 not the past decade.



With that in mind, its kind of surprising that you could have such expectations from the pass rush.




Thats great. Its the same old rhetoric you hear from practically everyone. Its kind of silly to fault Portis for being productive though. Thats the way the business works. And in case you havent noticed, we have been struggling to replace Portis. But to fault him for expecting money for production is a reflection of a naivete that fails to acknowledge its a business.


Since you are not sure of what you are talking about lets just agree to disagree consider this my last response to you.. but please feel free to chat with yourself on this and most others matters your wrong about..

EastCoastBronco
11-20-2008, 11:07 PM
Portis never would have lasted in Denver anyway...he just didn't fit. Shanny and Co. struck while the iron was hot and we got the better end of the deal...
It was a very "patriots" like move IMHO....

Lonestar
11-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Portis never would have lasted in Denver anyway...he just didn't fit. Shanny and Co. struck while the iron was hot and we got the better end of the deal...
It was a very "patriots" like move IMHO....

his clown act with the wigs and shades and then the gold belt thingy was just a bit more than mikey was going to tolerate..

Had Sharpe not been helping him with that GOD only knows how big the dog house would have been for him..

He has repeated called DEN a hick town and stated he could not get out of there to civilization fast enough..

YOUR 1000% correct mikey would have never given the 5th best RB top dog money anyway even if egos would not have been in place.. Because of that poorti$$$$ would not have been happy..

JKcatch724
11-21-2008, 12:13 AM
his clown act with the wigs and shades and then the gold belt thingy was just a bit more than mikey was going to tolerate..

Had Sharpe not been helping him with that GOD only knows how big the dog house would have been for him..

He has repeated called DEN a hick town and stated he could not get out of there to civilization fast enough..

YOUR 1000% correct mikey would have never given the 5th best RB top dog money anyway even if egos would not have been in place.. Because of that poorti$$$$ would not have been happy..

If Shanny can tolerate the antics of the likes of Shannon Sharpe and Brandon Marshall, he can certainly tolerate Portis. He was just as productive as them. Not everybody looks down on players that like to have fun with the game like you. None of his "antics" were detrimental to the team. He had a monster performance against KC and the game was well in hand by the time he donned the belt. Plus, it was in front of his own crowd. I got a kick out of it.

As far as Clinton not liking Denver... you know he lives in Miami, right? He lived in Miami when he played in Denver and still lives there playing for Washington. I'm sure he woulda stayed had we payed him the money he asked for. He deserved it the way he was performing. I assume you want Brandon Marshall shipped out, with that logic.

At some point Shanny needs to drop the ego and shell out some cash to a top-tier RB. We have gotten similar stats through RBBC, but we have never since had a guy we can count on consistently since "Poorti$$$".

lex
11-21-2008, 12:32 AM
Since you are not sure of what you are talking about lets just agree to disagree consider this my last response to you.. but please feel free to chat with yourself on this and most others matters your wrong about..

Thats not it at all. Im center mass on this. Did the Colts trade Reggie Wayne for defense because they already had Harrison? No, because theyre smart enough to know to not abandon their strength.

JKcatch724
11-21-2008, 12:33 AM
but please feel free to chat with yourself on this and most others matters your wrong about..

Please feel free to think you're right on subjective topics.

atwater27
11-21-2008, 01:52 AM
I love Champ. I think we should have traded for a stud D-lineman though. Champ is a waste of talent here, but a great leader and great character for the Broncos legacy. We needed a corner in the worst way at the time though, and had struck out so many times in the draft. It only made sense. Just wish we could have manufactured some sort of pass rush to show the world just how valuable Champ could be.

fcspikeit
11-21-2008, 01:55 AM
Not including how Champ has been used. I am including how Portis would have been used.

Portis has scored roughly 41 TD's since he has left. On a mostly shit Redskins team. Champ's existence cannot equal 41TDs since he has been here. Our Defense sucked to bad.

By that, I am saying, he gets thrown at maybe once or twice a game. Because the rest of our defense sucks so bad, that they dont even have to try and mix it up. They can run the same damn play every play all game long. Shit, the whole 16 game schedule can consist of thew same play, and we would be helpless to stop it.

So...... How does Champ help us?

We might as well throw someone over there, that doesnt cost anything.

Its like having the best kicker ever, ever to play the game, but he never gets to kick field goals.

Wouldn't you have to subtract the TD's our RB's got since CP left? I mean you are talking about the difference he would have made if he was here. Therefore he would only get credit for the extra TD's we would have got if he were here not the ones we got without him here..

Lonestar
11-21-2008, 02:27 AM
Please feel free to think you're right on subjective topics.


Believe me I will, Because poorti$$$$ would have never stayed with the team..

Not after making an ass out of himself in the new papers, mikey would have kept him on his original contract until after the next season, perhaps then started renegotiating a new contract.. That is his MO..

But I believe he would have traded his ass off if he caused anymore issues..

poorti$$$$ wanted big bucks and fame.

ONE Mikey did not have it to spend and

TWO poorti$$$$ did not like DEN to start with..

Three poorti$$$$ was to flamboyant for mikeys style..

four mikey knew he could replace poorti$$$$ with almost any RB and get near the same production out of the spot.. which he did time after time.

Five mikey was looking for another TD low round superstar.. he has had numerous opportunities to draft a stud in round one and has passed every time..


there is only room for one super ego on this team and mickey is the man.. poorti$$$$ had to go..

Magnificent Seven
11-21-2008, 02:30 AM
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis...........


Was a failure. We screwed the pooch on this one. Yes Champ is a stud, and will go to the HOF. But I think CP would have won allot more games for us.

And this painsme, cause I love Champ, but HYPOTHETICALS are involved, and CP was better for our team.

Well, I was happy with that blockbuster trade and they made a right decision. Mike Shannhan will continue finding another rusher.

JKcatch724
11-21-2008, 07:20 AM
Believe me I will, Because poorti$$$$ would have never stayed with the team..

Not after making an ass out of himself in the new papers, mikey would have kept him on his original contract until after the next season, perhaps then started renegotiating a new contract.. That is his MO..

But I believe he would have traded his ass off if he caused anymore issues..

poorti$$$$ wanted big bucks and fame.

ONE Mikey did not have it to spend and

TWO poorti$$$$ did not like DEN to start with..

Three poorti$$$$ was to flamboyant for mikeys style..

four mikey knew he could replace poorti$$$$ with almost any RB and get near the same production out of the spot.. which he did time after time.

Five mikey was looking for another TD low round superstar.. he has had numerous opportunities to draft a stud in round one and has passed every time..


there is only room for one super ego on this team and mickey is the man.. poorti$$$$ had to go..

1. Mikey DID have the money to spend. Do you just pull that out of thin air?! Show me some numbers and I will back down.

2. Again. Clinton Portis lives in Miami. He does not play for the Dolphins. He likes it in Miami. He liked it in Miami when he played here And he likes Miami now that he plays for Washington.

3. Said it before and I'll say it again. If Brandon Marshall is still on the team I don't see why Portis wouldn't be. Do you know Shanahan on a personal level? Have you chatted with him about his style? :rolleyes:

4. Wrong. Name one back we've had since Portis that has had the same production.

5. That's his problem. You need look no farther than the Super Bowl days. Yes, TD was a late round pick, a diamond in the rough. Like Tom Brady. He was a GO TO running back. When's the last time we had that?! Oh. That's right. Clinton.

Lonestar
11-21-2008, 12:04 PM
1. Mikey DID have the money to spend. Do you just pull that out of thin air?! Show me some numbers and I will back down.

2. Again. Clinton Portis lives in Miami. He does not play for the Dolphins. He likes it in Miami. He liked it in Miami when he played here And he likes Miami now that he plays for Washington.

3. Said it before and I'll say it again. If Brandon Marshall is still on the team I don't see why Portis wouldn't be. Do you know Shanahan on a personal level? Have you chatted with him about his style? :rolleyes:

4. Wrong. Name one back we've had since Portis that has had the same production.

5. That's his problem. You need look no farther than the Super Bowl days. Yes, TD was a late round pick, a diamond in the rough. Like Tom Brady. He was a GO TO running back. When's the last time we had that?! Oh. That's right. Clinton.


mikey may have had some money to spend, but he was not going to spend the kind of money on him that poorti$$$$ wanted especially since he was still only two year into his rookie contract .. Mikeys MO has always been to redo contracts in their final year.. Period. too further this point about not having the money, we had to make personal cuts to get enough money to pay for Champ..

I could care less about where he lives or lived . He publicly stated on more than one occasions after the trade he thought DEN was a hick town.. Was glad to be able to buy a huge house in Washington area to fit his life style, lots of night life..

Marshall as we speak is not poorti$$$$ in personality.. and who is to say if he changes that he will get another contract in DEN.. It is all about mikey now that John is gone it is mikeys ego that gets fed.. I'm surprised you have not noticed this yet..

Mike Anderson had 1500 yards as a rookie..

mikey is still convinced he is the mastermind and has this conversion fetish making players out of the rough, the list of converted players is long and rather impressive considering.. Lepsis converted TE, Sharpe a converted WR.. foxy into a safety.. numerous RB converted to FB and some back to RB MA leads that list.

Almost every OLINE guy we had till last years draft all low rounders made into some of the best team oline players in the league... this year trying to convert Larson to FB.

good try though.. I'll give you a C- for effort..

Requiem / The Dagda
11-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Shanahan didn't have the money to give Portis a big contract? Good grief. Could statements get any more ignorant? What do you think we paid Bailey with his deal here? French fries and pesos?

Lonestar
11-21-2008, 04:51 PM
Shanahan didn't have the money to give Portis a big contract? Good grief. Could statements get any more ignorant? What do you think we paid Bailey with his deal here? French fries and pesos?

I do not remember exactly who had to re-write their contracts at the time to do so but there were a couple of them that did as well as a couple of folks got cut to make cap space..

I'm sure if you do due diligence you can find those facts out..

For that matter I'm sure someone with Mania or mane access can find it for you..

Mikey has been in the cap space crapper for most of the time he was here.. cutting folks yearly to clear space.. I remember a couple of folks knowing that we needed space to get camp here gladly did it..

BTW Pesos would count against the cap space also..

good try but a D for your effort..

Requiem / The Dagda
11-21-2008, 04:59 PM
You just need to realize you're wrong period. Denver shelled out a huge contract to Champ Bailey. If they could have given him the money, they could have given it to Portis. That's a no brainer.

Lonestar
11-21-2008, 05:24 PM
You just need to realize you're wrong period. Denver shelled out a huge contract to Champ Bailey. If they could have given him the money, they could have given it to Portis. That's a no brainer.


so you think, the rub is would they have made the effort to change his policy about giving second year guys new contracts.. also would mikey have gone out of his way considering poorti$$$$$'s with his baggage with mikey.. mikey pulled RB's out of his back pocket there was no way he was going to overpay the #5 NFL rb, the best salary in the NFL.. We all know that so give it up..

good try........ you know sometimes you fight the wrong battles..

Kaylore
11-21-2008, 05:43 PM
This thread is hilarious.

LoyalSoldier
11-21-2008, 05:46 PM
This is all speculation. I don't see the trade as a bust because Champ produced a lot in the 2004-2006 seasons and even in the recent seasons it has been worth while. He made some very key interceptions that led us to our 2005 appearance in the AFCC.

The funny thing is that for as much as people are saying Champ was a waste because the defense isn't doing anything to help him, what have the Redskins done in the time they have had Portis? Only several tailspins in the playoffs. The Redskins haven't been spectacular at all. Since obtaining Portis they have

2007 9-7
2006 5-11
2005 10-6
2004 6-10

And even now they are far from locks to get into the playoffs. Also people don't even mention the fumblitus he had last season. Fumbled 6 times and lost 5.

Over all Portis for Bailey hasn't been a bad trade. Both teams got what they needed.

JKcatch724
11-21-2008, 06:24 PM
Mike Anderson had 1500 yards as a rookie..

Good try... I'll give you an F for being flat out wrong.

Mike Anderson's rookie year was in 2000. The category was "Running backs that have done anything SINCE Portis" for 500, Alex. Clinton's rookie year was 2002.

Lonestar
11-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Good try... I'll give you an F for being flat out wrong.

Mike Anderson's rookie year was in 2000. The category was "Running backs that have done anything SINCE Portis" for 500, Alex. Clinton's rookie year was 2002.

you got me on a tneckno

but mikey still has pulled RB out of his butt each year since except this one 2008..

2002 cp 1508 total 2266 for all rushing yards
2003 cp 1591 total 2629 for all rushing yards
2004 RD at 1240 2333 for all rushing yards
2005 MA 1014 2539 for all rushing yards
2006 tater 1025 2152 for all rushing yards
2007 total 1957 for all rushing yards

no offense but we had very little if any fall off except for last year when our OLINE SUCKED.. and of course this year being down to our #6 RB for the year..

good try but once again money grubbing poorti$$$$ was a punk and even drafting tater with the number 2 we still got the better end of the deal..

nevcraw
11-22-2008, 12:47 AM
tell me what Portis has really done?? besides run his stupid mouth?

Shanny was playing the averages on career length vs. impact. an above average RB vs. a possible HOF CB. not to mention who would you rather pay? a RB who is most likely will not be able to play out his signing bonus or a CB who could play for the full lentg plus easily slide to safewty when his speed diminshes.

it was and is still a no brainer.. Broncos win..

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 01:08 AM
tell me what Portis has really done?? besides run his stupid mouth?

Shanny was playing the averages on career length vs. impact. an above average RB vs. a possible HOF CB. not to mention who would you rather pay? a RB who is most likely will not be able to play out his signing bonus or a CB who could play for the full lentg plus easily slide to safewty when his speed diminshes.

it was and is still a no brainer.. Broncos win..

your correct here but there are porti$$$$ lovers that think the moron walks on water..

Others think that having a HOF CB is a waste without a DL to control the LOS..

While I'd love to have the giants DL.

BUT I have come to the conclusion that it is not going to happen and frankly if it did our moron DC would screw that pooch also..

JKcatch724
11-22-2008, 01:19 AM
your correct here but there are porti$$$$ lovers that think the moron walks on water..

Others think that having a HOF CB is a waste without a DL to control the LOS..

While I'd love to have the giants DL.

BUT I have come to the conclusion that it is not going to happen and frankly if it did our moron DC would screw that pooch also..

Nobody's saying Portis walk on water. If you've read the posts, nobody is complaining about getting Champ. I agree that getting a great corner is much harder than getting a great RB.

However, IMO Portis would be on his way to the HOF had he stayed here. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am because apparently you're right about everything, but the fact is he was putting up 1,500+ yards each year here.

Yes, we have had CLOSE to his productivity with a RBBC, but we've never had a go to guy like we had in Portis. We've just had adequate guys who can fulfill their role. How many years in a row have we had a new RB? We need some continuity.

Not bashing on Champ at all. In a perfect world we would have both.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 01:30 AM
Nobody's saying Portis walk on water. If you've read the posts, nobody is complaining about getting Champ. I agree that getting a great corner is much harder than getting a great RB.

However, IMO Portis would be on his way to the HOF had he stayed here. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am because apparently you're right about everything, but the fact is he was putting up 1,500+ yards each year here.

Yes, we have had CLOSE to his productivity with a RBBC, but we've never had a go to guy like we had in Portis. We've just had adequate guys who can fulfill their role. How many years in a row have we had a new RB? We need some continuity.

Not bashing on Champ at all. In a perfect world we would have both.


yes many have pissed and moaned about porti$$$$$ going away.. perhaps not in this thread but in many others..

Would it be nice to have 1500+ yards every year from the same guy absolutely but:

He was not going to get the pay he thought he deserved from mikey

he was to flamboyant for mikeys tastes..

RBs are dime a dozen compared to shut down corners..

as some one said above in most cases RB's never last long enough to be on the jobs when the end of their signing bonus is done..


When mikey could get almost the same amount of yards from existing RB's at 25% of the cost if that..

why spend the money??..

Goodday

Shazam!
11-22-2008, 02:27 AM
This reminds me of a love/hate Jake Plummer argument.

This was a double edged sword. I totally understand not wanting to pay Portis mega money at probably the most injury prone position, with TD fresh in Shanahan's mind. If Denver traded Portis for Draft picks, we'd be furious with how bad Denver's Drafting was at the time. At least they got a bonafide superstar (and a pick) in exchange.

With Champ it was the first time since John Elway that the Broncos had the best player at their position on their roster.

While they do need a feature Back this isn't completely a lack of one in Denver's Offense with the running game hurting. It is combined with an OLine that has been in transition and caught up with age, a lack of depth and injuries have hurt them. They seem to be on the right track this year.

If Torain started 10 games and averaged 5+ YPG this thread wouldn't exist.

Shanahan will pick up at least one RB in the Draft.

The only thing that I fear is Champ thinking he's running out of time and he'll never get a Super Bowl opportunity with the Broncos. If Denver makes the Playoffs and wins the Division, that may shake that.

lex
11-22-2008, 03:52 AM
Nobody's saying Portis walk on water. If you've read the posts, nobody is complaining about getting Champ. I agree that getting a great corner is much harder than getting a great RB.

However, IMO Portis would be on his way to the HOF had he stayed here. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am because apparently you're right about everything, but the fact is he was putting up 1,500+ yards each year here.

Yes, we have had CLOSE to his productivity with a RBBC, but we've never had a go to guy like we had in Portis. We've just had adequate guys who can fulfill their role. How many years in a row have we had a new RB? We need some continuity.

Not bashing on Champ at all. In a perfect world we would have both.

What I find ironic is how people, on one hand, will bash Tatum Bell and then talk out of the other side of their mouths and say our productivity was fine in the interim years since Portis left. LOL. In any case, the flaw with JRs citing those stats is that it doesnt tell you anything about production against tougher teams. Its when you play the tougher teams where creating at the next level comes into play...its creating beyond the diagram of the play where success comes against some of those teams.

I want A GUY who the defenses have to gameplan against. Furthermore, I want the team to not weaken a position of strength. People fail to realize that in Denver the utilization factor also amplifies the skills of the better RBs, whereas, there is nothing inherent that enhances CB play. But the reality is too, that its as much about your 2nd corner as it is about your top corner.

lex
11-22-2008, 03:57 AM
This reminds me of a love/hate Jake Plummer argument.

This was a double edged sword. I totally understand not wanting to pay Portis mega money at probably the most injury prone position, with TD fresh in Shanahan's mind. If Denver traded Portis for Draft picks, we'd be furious with how bad Denver's Drafting was at the time. At least they got a bonafide superstar (and a pick) in exchange.

With Champ it was the first time since John Elway that the Broncos had the best player at their position on their roster.

While they do need a feature Back this isn't completely a lack of one in Denver's Offense with the running game hurting. It is combined with an OLine that has been in transition and caught up with age, a lack of depth and injuries have hurt them. They seem to be on the right track this year.

If Torain started 10 games and averaged 5+ YPG this thread wouldn't exist.

Shanahan will pick up at least one RB in the Draft.

The only thing that I fear is Champ thinking he's running out of time and he'll never get a Super Bowl opportunity with the Broncos. If Denver makes the Playoffs and wins the Division, that may shake that.

If Torain is averaging 5.0 ypc, Portis would average 6.5 yards per carry. And its great that everyone thinks Shanahan will pick up a RB in the draft like getting a RB the quality of Portis is like shopping for groceries...like you can just grab one off the shelf.

We blew it. Not only did we weaken what was our competitive advantage, ie our running game, but we tried to fix the defense by acquiring a defensive back. We should have built the defense front to back and not back to front.

JKcatch724
11-22-2008, 05:33 AM
What I find ironic is how people, on one hand, will bash Tatum Bell and then talk out of the other side of their mouths and say our productivity was fine in the interim years since Portis left. LOL. In any case, the flaw with JRs citing those stats is that it doesnt tell you anything about production against tougher teams. Its when you play the tougher teams where creating at the next level comes into play...its creating beyond the diagram of the play where success comes against some of those teams.

I want A GUY who the defenses have to gameplan against. Furthermore, I want the team to not weaken a position of strength. People fail to realize that in Denver the utilization factor also amplifies the skills of the better RBs, whereas, there is nothing inherent that enhances CB play. But the reality is too, that its as much about your 2nd corner as it is about your top corner.

Great post :salute:

Yes, our running game can suit just about any back. That's EXACTLY why we need a guy that can utilize that system to the max, ala Clinton. People don't fear a Reuben Droughns, or Tatum Bell, or Selvin Young. They feared a Clinton Portis because he was consistently a badass every run he made. He was a threat to take it to the house every time.

Champ is intimidating, but that doesn't mean much when a coach says, "Alright (Insert QB's name here), we gotta watch out for Champ. But... Dre Bly gives like Santa Claus. Go for it all damn day.

I miss Clinton badly. And am happy to have Champ. I'm bipolar I guess.

claymore
11-22-2008, 07:47 AM
The only good thing that came out of the Portis trade was that it showed how weak our QB position was. If we still had Portis, we might never have been in the position to draft Cutler, or felt the need to. In the end I would rather have Cutler,

Timmy!
11-22-2008, 08:44 AM
The only good thing that came out of the Portis trade was that it showed how weak our QB position was. If we still had Portis, we might never have been in the position to draft Cutler, or felt the need to. In the end I would rather have Cutler,


About damn time you said something smart. :coffee:

lex
11-22-2008, 11:09 AM
Great post :salute:

Yes, our running game can suit just about any back. That's EXACTLY why we need a guy that can utilize that system to the max, ala Clinton. People don't fear a Reuben Droughns, or Tatum Bell, or Selvin Young. They feared a Clinton Portis because he was consistently a badass every run he made. He was a threat to take it to the house every time.

Champ is intimidating, but that doesn't mean much when a coach says, "Alright (Insert QB's name here), we gotta watch out for Champ. But... Dre Bly gives like Santa Claus. Go for it all damn day.

I miss Clinton badly. And am happy to have Champ. I'm bipolar I guess.

Champs a great player but aside from one season, which was 2006, he can be beat and has been beaten. He's not perfect. But the blind idolotry that you see on message boards would lead one to believe that their favorite football team is the Denver Champs. Its that extreme. I understand how people get behind the guy on your team and that Champ is currently a Bronco and Portis is now a Redskin.

Champ has been a good player but again, it has come at the expense of what used to be a major strength, and the reality is that Champ doesnt play both sides of the field. So a lot relies on the quality of the 2nd CB. But its somewhat ignorant to say the running game has been the same since. Earlier I made the comparison to the Colts and how they didnt trade Reggie Wayne to bolster their defense because they already had Harrison. Its becuase they know their strength and trading Wayne would have been an extreme act of Hubris as it was to trade Portis.

Northman
11-22-2008, 11:11 AM
This is all speculation. I don't see the trade as a bust because Champ produced a lot in the 2004-2006 seasons and even in the recent seasons it has been worth while. He made some very key interceptions that led us to our 2005 appearance in the AFCC.

The funny thing is that for as much as people are saying Champ was a waste because the defense isn't doing anything to help him, what have the Redskins done in the time they have had Portis? Only several tailspins in the playoffs. The Redskins haven't been spectacular at all. Since obtaining Portis they have

2007 9-7
2006 5-11
2005 10-6
2004 6-10

And even now they are far from locks to get into the playoffs. Also people don't even mention the fumblitus he had last season. Fumbled 6 times and lost 5.

Over all Portis for Bailey hasn't been a bad trade. Both teams got what they needed.


Exactly. Hard to say we failed in the trade when Washington hasnt done anymore than we have at this stage. Not too mention Portis has taken a beating in Washington to boot. He wont last much longer.

lex
11-22-2008, 11:11 AM
The only good thing that came out of the Portis trade was that it showed how weak our QB position was. If we still had Portis, we might never have been in the position to draft Cutler, or felt the need to. In the end I would rather have Cutler,

Thats a good point but it goes to show how wrong the FO was in assessing how much Portis and what Plummer meant.

Northman
11-22-2008, 11:13 AM
Nobody's saying Portis walk on water. If you've read the posts, nobody is complaining about getting Champ. I agree that getting a great corner is much harder than getting a great RB.

However, IMO Portis would be on his way to the HOF had he stayed here. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am because apparently you're right about everything, but the fact is he was putting up 1,500+ yards each year here.

Yes, we have had CLOSE to his productivity with a RBBC, but we've never had a go to guy like we had in Portis. We've just had adequate guys who can fulfill their role. How many years in a row have we had a new RB? We need some continuity.

Not bashing on Champ at all. In a perfect world we would have both.


Who gives a shit if he would of been going to HOF? Isnt the point to try and win championships? We had to make a move to try and fix the defense and considering how some of the backs performed it was a no brainer at the time.

lex
11-22-2008, 11:22 AM
Who gives a shit if he would of been going to HOF? Isnt the point to try and win championships? We had to make a move to try and fix the defense and considering how some of the backs performed it was a no brainer at the time.

Once again, if it was such a no-brainer, Reggie Wayne would have been traded by the Colts for defense. Its never a no-brainer when youre contemplating weakening a position of strength.

According to your logic, the following trades would have happened for the following reasons:

NE Patriots--Richard Seymour traded for a WR...since they had good defense with a variety of other players

Baltimore Ravens-- Traded Terrell Suggs for a QB

Indy Colts--traded Reggie Wayne for defense



I could go on and on.

Northman
11-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Once again, if it was such a no-brainer, Reggie Wayne would have been traded by the Colts for defense. Its never a no-brainer when youre contemplating weakening a position of strength.


It wasnt like the Colts had a full stock of Wr's to replace Wayne if he was traded. On the other hand, Denver had been having success with other back aside from Portis. So while you may keep on trying to toot your own horn on a subject that flat out blows up in your face time and time again because there is nothing to substantiate your claim by all means keep trying. I got an idea, how bout we blow the rest of the season so we can get a better draft pick? Isnt that what you really want anyway? Got to love fans who want a team to purposely lose. :lol:

lex
11-22-2008, 11:33 AM
It wasnt like the Colts had a full stock of Wr's to replace Wayne if he was traded. On the other hand, Denver had been having success with other back aside from Portis. So while you may keep on trying to toot your own horn on a subject that flat out blows up in your face time and time again because there is nothing to substantiate your claim by all means keep trying. I got an idea, how bout we blow the rest of the season so we can get a better draft pick? Isnt that what you really want anyway? Got to love fans who want a team to purposely lose. :lol:

Watch out! Its about to blow up in your face. Last year without Harrison, the Colts had an effective passing game. I guess they should have traded him since Manning can use other WRs effectively.

BANG!!!!


Your post just lost traction. How unfortunate.

nevcraw
11-22-2008, 11:46 AM
People can bitch and moan about "the broncos" letting Portis go, but let's not forget how it really went down..
Portis wanted to be the highest paid running back after only 2 years in the league behind the best O line in the "golden age" of the ZBS. The broncos per policy did not negotiate that soon into a contract, and to avoid a hold out gave permission to seek a trade. Agent douchebag and Portis brought the broncos the a offer that included a fix for the weakest postion on the team at the time (CB) with the games best player at the position.
Since then Champ has lead his team to the AFC championship, led the league in INT's and a runner up DMVP, not to mention a locker room leader and helping teamate who talks of acountability.. Not to be outdone Portis has lead the leauge in butchering the english language and humorless parody's followed by the league's leading foot in mouth quotes. He occasionsally played football when not injured.
Any questions?

lex
11-22-2008, 11:59 AM
People can bitch and moan about "the broncos" letting Portis go, but let's not forget how it really went down..
Portis wanted to be the highest paid running back after only 2 years in the league behind the best O line in the "golden age" of the ZBS. The broncos per policy did not negotiate that soon into a contract, and to avoid a hold out gave permission to seek a trade. Agent douchebag and Portis brought the broncos the a offer that included a fix for the weakest postion on the team at the time (CB) with the games best player at the position.
Since then Champ has lead his team to the AFC championship, led the league in INT's and a runner up DMVP, not to mention a locker room leader and helping teamate who talks of acountability.. Not to be outdone Portis has lead the leauge in butchering the english language and humorless parody's followed by the league's leading foot in mouth quotes. He occasionsally played football when not injured.
Any questions?

And since then, Denver has been trying to replace Portis, meanwhile the past two years Champ hasnt prevented the defense from being awful.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-22-2008, 12:13 PM
so you think, the rub is would they have made the effort to change his policy about giving second year guys new contracts.. also would mikey have gone out of his way considering poorti$$$$$'s with his baggage with mikey.. mikey pulled RB's out of his back pocket there was no way he was going to overpay the #5 NFL rb, the best salary in the NFL.. We all know that so give it up..

good try........ you know sometimes you fight the wrong battles..

You made the statement that Denver couldn't afford to pay Portis the money he wanted. You're wrong.

nevcraw
11-22-2008, 12:35 PM
And since then, Denver has been trying to replace Portis, meanwhile the past two years Champ hasnt prevented the defense from being awful.

If you say so.. :confused:
Portis is not a team on his shoulders player, so I cannot imagine he would have been able to fix the ailments of thre broncos during the recent transitional years. And if you think he would have continued putting up 1500+ yds. seasons with the OL since he left you are dillusional.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 12:57 PM
People can bitch and moan about "the broncos" letting Portis go, but let's not forget how it really went down..
Portis wanted to be the highest paid running back after only 2 years in the league behind the best O line in the "golden age" of the ZBS. The broncos per policy did not negotiate that soon into a contract, and to avoid a hold out gave permission to seek a trade. Agent douchebag and Portis brought the broncos the a offer that included a fix for the weakest postion on the team at the time (CB) with the games best player at the position.
Since then Champ has lead his team to the AFC championship, led the league in INT's and a runner up DMVP, not to mention a locker room leader and helping teamate who talks of acountability.. Not to be outdone Portis has lead the leauge in butchering the english language and humorless parody's followed by the league's leading foot in mouth quotes. He occasionsally played football when not injured.
Any questions?

great post..

what the poorti$$$$$ whiners do not understand was he would have never been kept here period.

It would have come down to a test of wills between mikey and him..

So mikey has been trying to replace him since he left.. we have not had a revolving door at RCB like we have had since Gordon left after the Superbowl wins..

Odds are we would have spent other DAFT choices on RB anyway knowing that we are just one Interception away from loosing a HOF RB again..

forget trying to get them to admit that our options with poorti$$$$$ very limited..

BTW you forgot poorti$$$$$ never liked living and playing in a "HICK town" to start with.. He was pissed to be drafted by DEN #2 and not as a number one picks anyway..

Foochacho
11-22-2008, 01:02 PM
This conversation is retarded, when will it end. At the time most people were excited about the trade. It made more sense at the time. Why pay big for a rb when you can find them so easily. No, we haven't found another portis yet but who says we won't. A rb is alot easier to find than a champ bailey. A rb can be injured and out of the league so easily so why risk paying him big when champ is on the plate.

Now four years later people are bitching because our run game and defense have been sucking. Well we know that the defensive problems are not champs fault, we had a decent defense just a couple of years ago. And our running game has been having trouble with injuries and a young oline that haven't mastered the zone blocking scheme.

We can find an effective running back or a one two punch without breaking the bank. Because our running game sucks now doesn't mean that it wasn't the right trade at the time.

lex
11-22-2008, 01:03 PM
If you say so.. :confused:
Indeed. But its not right because I say it.



Portis is not a team on his shoulders player, so I cannot imagine he would have been able to fix the ailments of thre broncos during the recent transitional years. And if you think he would have continued putting up 1500+ yds. seasons with the OL since he left you are dillusional.

"Dillusional"...is that like "dill[pickle]usional? Anyway, again, we weakened a position of strength without really solving anything. Ive reiterated numerous times that the 2nd CB is as important as the best CB. Champ hasnt solved that problem. Plus Champ represents a flaw in building your defense from back to front.

But this has been said more than once. Perhaps, youre the one who should be asking questions rather than asking if there are any questions.

DenBronx
11-22-2008, 01:07 PM
portis is a hermaphidite.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 01:08 PM
You made the statement that Denver couldn't afford to pay Portis the money he wanted. You're wrong.

do you have a open line to mikey did he tell you he was going to make the #5 RB in the league the highest paid RB in NFL history?

Common sense tells everyone BUT YOU you that:

If we had the money and were not already in cap hell..
He would not re-do a second year big mouth RB..
It has always been DEN policy to wait till he final year to do so..
Just because he found money to Re-do Champs contract tell NO ONE that he would or could have done it for poorti$$$$$
How may folks did mikey have to ask to re-do their contract to make room and how many players got cut to do so..


You have NO proof that mikey would have done it as I have no proof that he would not.. but mikeys history and policy on this is incontrovertible..

Dream your simply not rational on this when you look at mikeys history.. Step back and think about it.. that is unless you actually have mikeys hot line number.. :laugh::laugh:

If you are unable to do so we will have to agree to disagree on this subject..

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 01:09 PM
This conversation is retarded, when will it end. At the time most people were excited about the trade. It made more sense at the time. Why pay big for a rb when you can find them so easily. No, we haven't found another portis yet but who says we won't. A rb is alot easier to find than a champ bailey. A rb can be injured and out of the league so easily so why risk paying him big when champ is on the plate.

Now four years later people are bitching because our run game and defense have been sucking. Well we know that the defensive problems are not champs fault, we had a decent defense just a couple of years ago. And our running game has been having trouble with injuries and a young oline that haven't mastered the zone blocking scheme.

We can find an effective running back or a one two punch without breaking the bank. Because our running game sucks now doesn't mean that it wasn't the right trade at the time.

your wise beyond your years, great post..

hamrob
11-22-2008, 02:30 PM
I don't know. I think that we forget about Champ...because nobody throws his way...whereas CP is getting the ball half the game. I still think that Champ and a 2nd was the better deal.

1. Your argument really doesn't make sense...because if you look at our rushing yards as a team...we still were top 5...top 10 the past three years.

2. Champ has almost completely shut down half of the field since he's been here. He picked off 11 balls while only have like 20 thown his way in 2006.

3. It's not Champ's fault...we've failed to get a defense to play around him.

So, even steven...Champ for CP, I think we definitely got the better deal. Sure the Bell 2nd hasn't turned out...but who knows...let's see what he can do these next few weeks and into the playoffs...we just might be surprised. I really thought we gave up on him too quickly. We'll see.

lex
11-22-2008, 02:38 PM
I don't know. I think that we forget about Champ...because nobody throws his way...whereas CP is getting the ball half the game. I still think that Champ and a 2nd was the better deal.

1. Your argument really doesn't make sense...because if you look at our rushing yards as a team...we still were top 5...top 10 the past three years.

2. Champ has almost completely shut down half of the field since he's been here. He picked off 11 balls while only have like 20 thown his way in 2006.

3. It's not Champ's fault...we've failed to get a defense to play around him.

So, even steven...Champ for CP, I think we definitely got the better deal. Sure the Bell 2nd hasn't turned out...but who knows...let's see what he can do these next few weeks and into the playoffs...we just might be surprised. I really thought we gave up on him too quickly. We'll see.

Not really. You undermine your own argument when you correctly point out that RBs impact the game by carrying the ball on half the plays. Meanwhile, Champ doesnt stop the same affect. And Champ isnt impacting the game so much if the opposing offense can pick other spots to go. But the reality is that Champ is and has been beatable and has been beaten on plays, though few would like to admit that. Yeah, 2006 was one of the best years any CB has ever had. Great. But since then Champ hasnt stopped the defense from being bad.

turftoad
11-22-2008, 02:46 PM
Not really. You undermine your own argument when you correctly point out that RBs impact the game by carrying the ball on half the plays. Meanwhile, Champ doesnt stop the same affect. And Champ isnt impacting the game so much if the opposing offense can pick other spots to go. But the reality is that Champ is and has been beatable and has been beaten on plays, though few would like to admit that. Yeah, 2006 was one of the best years any CB has ever had. Great. But since then Champ hasnt stopped the defense from being bad.

I didn't know Champ was in charge of drafting, picking up FA or trading for defensive players. :confused:

Sure Champ gets beat once in while. He (or anyone else) for that matter can't cover for ever because of zero pass rush.

lex
11-22-2008, 02:53 PM
I didn't know Champ was in charge of drafting, picking up FA or trading for defensive players. :confused:

Sure Champ gets beat once in while. He (or anyone else) for that matter can't cover for ever because of zero pass rush.

If nothing else it points to how flawed it was to build the defense from back to front (Ive said this numerous time, again, RIF)...and we weakened a strength to do it.

turftoad
11-22-2008, 02:57 PM
If nothing else it points to how flawed it was to build the defense from back to front (Ive said this numerous time, again, RIF)...and we weakened a strength to do it.

So if we trade Champ, we don't weaken a strength??

lex
11-22-2008, 03:01 PM
So if we trade Champ, we don't weaken a strength??

How many INTs did we have when Champ went out with an injury?

turftoad
11-22-2008, 03:02 PM
How many INTs did we have when Champ went out with an injury?

I didn't know we based a DB's success on INT's alone. :tsk:

lex
11-22-2008, 03:13 PM
I didn't know we based a DB's success on INT's alone. :tsk:

No, its also measured in 12 yard cushions and tackles made 1 yard past the first down marker, if you play on this team.

turftoad
11-22-2008, 03:18 PM
No, its also measured in 12 yard cushions and tackles made 1 yard past the first down marker, if you play on this team.

Exactly, thats why Foxworth isn't here anymore.

lex
11-22-2008, 03:21 PM
Exactly, thats why Foxworth isn't here anymore.


But that was the case with Champ also. And Champ is/was an advocate of Slowik. Thats worked very well.

turftoad
11-22-2008, 03:24 PM
But that was the case with Champ also. And Champ is/was an advocate of Slowik. Thats worked very well.

Bah...... Lex, pretty much EVERY expert out there says Champ is probably the best in the league. You can't discount that.

Do we need a true RB? Of course we do. They are easier to come by than a true CB. Shanahans already proved that he doesn't know how to draft CB's. Bottom line.

I don't think CP alone would have brought us a SB win.

lex
11-22-2008, 03:48 PM
Bah...... Lex, pretty much EVERY expert out there says Champ is probably the best in the league. You can't discount that.

Do we need a true RB? Of course we do. They are easier to come by than a true CB. Shanahans already proved that he doesn't know how to draft CB's. Bottom line.

I don't think CP alone would have brought us a SB win.

Perhaps. But one thing we definitely know is that Champ hasnt brought us a SB win. In fact, he hasnt prevented our defense from being horrible. Not only that, but I see more and more analysts saying theyd rank others above Champ. Someone just recently posted thread on the mane about how someone on Sirius was saying Asomugha is the only true cover corner.

turftoad
11-22-2008, 03:53 PM
Perhaps. But one thing we definitely know is that Champ hasnt brought us a SB win. In fact, he hasnt prevented our defense from being horrible. Not only that, but I see more and more analysts saying theyd rank others above Champ. Someone just recently posted thread on the mane about how someone on Sirius was saying Asomugha is the only true cover corner.

No, one player by themselves will ever bring a SB.

TXBRONC
11-22-2008, 03:54 PM
How many INTs did we have when Champ went out with an injury?

Maybe you haven't watched much this season but other Felica Rivers no one has challenged him more than once or twice a game. So your question is invalid.

TXBRONC
11-22-2008, 03:56 PM
Perhaps. But one thing we definitely know is that Champ hasnt brought us a SB win. In fact, he hasnt prevented our defense from being horrible. Not only that, but I see more and more analysts saying theyd rank others above Champ. Someone just recently posted thread on the mane about how someone on Sirius was saying Asomugha is the only true cover corner.


And Portis didn't keep Washington's offense from being horrible when he first arrived. :coffee:

lex
11-22-2008, 04:11 PM
No, one player by themselves will ever bring a SB.

Yeah, which underscores the flaw in the trade and how the team was constructed back to front.


Maybe you haven't watched much this season but other Felica Rivers no challenged him more than once or twice a game. So your question is invalid.

Actually, I was talking about the entire defense. But thanks for playing. We have some wonderful parting gifts for you.


And Portis didn't keep Washington's offense from being horrible when he arrived first arrived. :coffee:

See above.

DenBronx
11-22-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't know. I think that we forget about Champ...because nobody throws his way...whereas CP is getting the ball half the game. I still think that Champ and a 2nd was the better deal.

and i think if we had selected michael turner in the 5th instead of tatum in the 2nd then this thread wouldnt even exist.

fact is it was a win win situation for both teams, especially at the time. where we went wrong was not correctly filling the rb position. no doubt is was mike and teds fault for the blundering drafts but thankfully mikey has really seemed to turn things around.

Northman
11-22-2008, 04:52 PM
Not really. You undermine your own argument when you correctly point out that RBs impact the game by carrying the ball on half the plays. Meanwhile, Champ doesnt stop the same affect. And Champ isnt impacting the game so much if the opposing offense can pick other spots to go. But the reality is that Champ is and has been beatable and has been beaten on plays, though few would like to admit that. Yeah, 2006 was one of the best years any CB has ever had. Great. But since then Champ hasnt stopped the defense from being bad.

And Portis doesnt get 10 yards every play either. Imagine that. :lol:

Northman
11-22-2008, 05:03 PM
Last year without Harrison, the Colts had an effective passing game. I guess they should have traded him since Manning can use other WRs effectively.




Yep, Wayne (you know, the guy we were talking about?) picked up the slack with Harrison out. If Wayne wasnt there that offense has essentially nothing else. Harrison is slowing down bigtime and there is no way that Gonzales or Clark are going to carry that receiving core. Sorry, you still lose this arguement as usual. But hey, thanks for playing.

By the way, since you were so busy slobbering all over McFadden's jock last year how's that working out for ya? Raiders sure look dominant with a go to RB dont they? LOL

Foochacho
11-22-2008, 06:17 PM
If portis did stay in denver what would we of accomplished? He worked in our system but so did our 1-2 punch after he left we would still get 1600 yards or so out of 2 guys. The year after Portis left Droughns had 1200 yards by himself. Along with another 400 hundred from Tater.

Portis went to washington and stunk it up the first couple years. Now all the sudden we made an awful trade because he is having a great year again and we are having running back problems. If he stayed in denver he may have had a good year, but so did our two guys we used in his place( who cost alot less money and actually wanted to be here and be a team player).

Portis was a cancer, if he stayed on a team he didn't want to be on he probally would of caused us problems. look at how he talked shit about washingtons O line saying he wishes he had denvers O line. If Iwas on that line I would of let him get pounded. He made it clear that he didn't want to stay in denver and it would of cost to much to keep him. And why pay that much for him? for maybe a couple hundred more yards a year. Whats that going to do for us? Champ bailey getting 10 interceptions in one season makes a huge difference. How many yards and points did our offense get off of all those int's?

Our team has had good seasons without Portis. Portis would not of made the difference in our playoff games against indy and pittsburgh. Unless you expected him to score 20 - 30 points by himself. Our problem was a QB who couldn't do it in the postseason. We had the tools and got spanked. Cp would of done nothing to fix that. Hell, we probally would of got spanked by more without bailey shutting down one side of the field.

Our problem has never been our running game (except this year) it has been defense. 4 years ago champ bailey was the right choice it doesn't matter who we would rather have now. If portis did stay in denver maybe he would of got injured and be out of the league. It could of played out a hundred different ways. Why play a big "what if" game?

We have a young team that is getting better and will be great. And even today I wouldn't break the bank on a RB they go down way to easy. Hell we may have the answer on the roster now. We haven't seen enough out of alot of these guys do to injury and who knows they may stay healthy next year and put clinton to shame.

4 years ago Shanahan was looking for the next TD, portis was a whiney money hungry ******* and deserved to get booted out. Terrell was a team player if portis played and acted like TD we probally would of broke the bank for him. He never showed us that he deserved it.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 06:44 PM
If portis did stay in denver what would we of accomplished? He worked in our system but so did our 1-2 punch after he left we would still get 1600 yards or so out of 2 guys. The year after Portis left Droughns had 1200 yards by himself. Along with another 400 hundred from Tater.

Portis went to washington and stunk it up the first couple years. Now all the sudden we made an awful trade because he is having a great year again and we are having running back problems. If he stayed in denver he may have had a good year, but so did our two guys we used in his place( who cost alot less money and actually wanted to be here and be a team player).

Portis was a cancer, if he stayed on a team he didn't want to be on he probally would of caused us problems. look at how he talked shit about washingtons O line saying he wishes he had denvers O line. If Iwas on that line I would of let him get pounded. He made it clear that he didn't want to stay in denver and it would of cost to much to keep him. And why pay that much for him? for maybe a couple hundred more yards a year. Whats that going to do for us? Champ bailey getting 10 interceptions in one season makes a huge difference. How many yards and points did our offense get off of all those int's?

Our team has had good seasons without Portis. Portis would not of made the difference in our playoff games against indy and pittsburgh. Unless you expected him to score 20 - 30 points by himself. Our problem was a QB who couldn't do it in the postseason. We had the tools and got spanked. Cp would of done nothing to fix that. Hell, we probally would of got spanked by more without bailey shutting down one side of the field.

Our problem has never been our running game (except this year) it has been defense. 4 years ago champ bailey was the right choice it doesn't matter who we would rather have now. If portis did stay in denver maybe he would of got injured and be out of the league. It could of played out a hundred different ways. Why play a big "what if" game?

We have a young team that is getting better and will be great. And even today I wouldn't break the bank on a RB they go down way to easy. Hell we may have the answer on the roster now. We haven't seen enough out of alot of these guys do to injury and who knows they may stay healthy next year and put clinton to shame.

4 years ago Shanahan was looking for the next TD, portis was a whiney money hungry ******* and deserved to get booted out. Terrell was a team player if portis played and acted like TD we probally would of broke the bank for him. He never showed us that he deserved it.

once again another great post about this moron, but the poorti$$$$ lovers will not get it..

lex
11-22-2008, 06:52 PM
Yep, Wayne (you know, the guy we were talking about?) picked up the slack with Harrison out. If Wayne wasnt there that offense has essentially nothing else. Harrison is slowing down bigtime and there is no way that Gonzales or Clark are going to carry that receiving core. Sorry, you still lose this arguement as usual. But hey, thanks for playing.

Wrong. But the Colts didnt trade Wayne and he did carry the offense. You could also look at it the other way with your feeble logic and say that they should have traded Harrison as soon as they knew that Wayne was a quality WR. They didnt do it. They focused on improving the defense through FA but mainly through the draft. Of course, they had Polian and we had Sundquist but the very fact that we had to look at trading a talent like Portis to fix a problem because we couldnt do it in the draft (after Middlebrooks and ONeal) shows a problem in the front office.

Again, not only did we weaken what was a strength or not address the problem that was in the front office that forced us to look away from the draft, but but we also tried building our team from back to front. This move was flawed all over the place. Though few would admit it.


By the way, since you were so busy slobbering all over McFadden's jock last year how's that working out for ya? Raiders sure look dominant with a go to RB dont they?

He has been injured but has done ok otherwise, especially considering he is playing for a team that has a green QB, where defenses know they can focus on the run.

JKcatch724
11-22-2008, 07:04 PM
Wrong. But the Colts didnt trade Wayne and he did carry the offense. You could also look at it the other way with your feeble logic and say that they should have traded Harrison as soon as they knew that Wayne was a quality WR. They didnt do it. They focused on improving the defense through FA but mainly through the draft. Of course, they had Polian and we had Sundquist but the very fact that we had to look at trading a talent like Portis to fix a problem because we couldnt do it in the draft (after Middlebrooks and ONeal) shows a problem in the front office.

Again, not only did we weaken what was a strength or not address the problem that was in the front office that forced us to look away from the draft, but but we also tried building our team from back to front. This move was flawed all over the place. Though few would admit it.



He has been injured but has done ok otherwise, especially considering he is playing for a team that has a green QB, where defenses know they can focus on the run.

We don't speak his name around here :lol:

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 07:09 PM
Wrong. But the Colts didnt trade Wayne and he did carry the offense. You could also look at it the other way with your feeble logic and say that they should have traded Harrison as soon as they knew that Wayne was a quality WR. They didnt do it. They focused on improving the defense through FA but mainly through the draft. Of course, they had Polian and we had Sundquist but the very fact that we had to look at trading a talent like Portis to fix a problem because we couldnt do it in the draft (after Middlebrooks and ONeal) shows a problem in the front office.

Again, not only did we weaken what was a strength or not address the problem that was in the front office that forced us to look away from the draft, but but we also tried building our team from back to front. This move was flawed all over the place. Though few would admit it.



He has been injured but has done ok otherwise, especially considering he is playing for a team that has a green QB, where defenses know they can focus on the run.



please give it a rest you are not going to convince ANYONE that did not think that poorti$$$$ walked on water this was a bad trade..


PLEASE your only digging your self into an indefensible position...

Jake wars part duex

tubby
11-22-2008, 07:11 PM
I miss Booty Doo.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-22-2008, 07:14 PM
If you are unable to do so we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I don't see why common sense is something that is hard for you to grasp. Improve your reading comprehension.

There's a difference between being able to afford Portis and wanting to pay him the money. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that Denver didn't need or didn't want to shell out big bucks to Clinton because they had success with lower-draft picks and guys who would cost very cheap.

I was just stating that it's entirely possible that Denver could have paid Clinton Portis the money and given him a long term deal. They could afford it, that much is obvious considering the mega-contract (not so mega-now) Bailey received after the trade was completed.

It is really that simple.

lex
11-22-2008, 07:14 PM
If portis did stay in denver what would we of accomplished? He worked in our system but so did our 1-2 punch after he left we would still get 1600 yards or so out of 2 guys. The year after Portis left Droughns had 1200 yards by himself. Along with another 400 hundred from Tater.
OK, and...? Once again, another example of how people talk out of both sides of their mouth when discussing Bell.


Portis went to washington and stunk it up the first couple years. Now all the sudden we made an awful trade because he is having a great year again and we are having running back problems. If he stayed in denver he may have had a good year, but so did our two guys we used in his place( who cost alot less money and actually wanted to be here and be a team player).

He wasnt awful. He wasnt used as well in DC as he was in Denver. When he went to Washington, he outperformed the Diesel statistically who ran behind a better offensive line under the very same coach.


Portis was a cancer, if he stayed on a team he didn't want to be on he probally would of caused us problems. look at how he talked shit about washingtons O line saying he wishes he had denvers O line. If Iwas on that line I would of let him get pounded. He made it clear that he didn't want to stay in denver and it would of cost to much to keep him. And why pay that much for him? for maybe a couple hundred more yards a year. Whats that going to do for us? Champ bailey getting 10 interceptions in one season makes a huge difference. How many yards and points did our offense get off of all those int's?

Selective sampling isnt much of an argument. You say the trade is validated for one season that Champ had but you measure Portis on a breadth of seasons. Currently Portis is among the leagues leading rushers. He has been playing with an injured ACL. The guy is a gamer and youre calling him a cancer. LOL. Why? Because he wore a belt? Because he's colorful? I dont care. I want a guy who produces provided its not someone like Travis Henry (who didnt really produce actually).


Our team has had good seasons without Portis. Portis would not of made the difference in our playoff games against indy and pittsburgh. Unless you expected him to score 20 - 30 points by himself. Our problem was a QB who couldn't do it in the postseason. We had the tools and got spanked. Cp would of done nothing to fix that. Hell, we probally would of got spanked by more without bailey shutting down one side of the field.

You dont know that he wouldnt have made the difference in any of our playoff games. He was far better than what we had at the time. His ability to create at the next level could have easily netted us points and yards that the other RBs werent capable of. In the first playoff loss vs Indy, we had only recently gone into Indy and beat them badly by running all over them with an RB inferior to Portis. The next game didnt work that way. Had our offense got on track before Indys like in the previous game, the outcome would have likely been similar to the previous game. And then in the following loss vs Indy, how much did having Champ help? He made no difference from the year before.

People like to point to that one play vs NE that Champ made but one of the reasons the game was so tight was because of an inability to get the running game on track. The idea that Portis, a far superior RB to both Bell and Anderson, could have made a bigger difference is not far fetched at all.

And your remark about our QB dovetails with what Ive been saying about knowing your strength. Weakening our strength forced a greater reliance on our QB. The trade was an act of hubris.


Our problem has never been our running game (except this year) it has been defense. 4 years ago champ bailey was the right choice it doesn't matter who we would rather have now. If portis did stay in denver maybe he would of got injured and be out of the league. It could of played out a hundred different ways. Why play a big "what if" game?

No one is saying defense isnt important. But having a dominant running game is also important. A dominant running game helps the defense and helps the passing game. A dominant running game won us two SBs. But our biggest problem was the willingness to weaken strengths instead of addressing the real problems the right way. One CB does not do it. Building from back to front does not do it. Tolerating a GM who doesnt allow you to address personnel shortcomings through the draft also doesnt do it. We did every thing the wrong way. It was the wrong decision for a variety of reasons which I have pointed out.


We have a young team that is getting better and will be great. And even today I wouldn't break the bank on a RB they go down way to easy. Hell we may have the answer on the roster now. We haven't seen enough out of alot of these guys do to injury and who knows they may stay healthy next year and put clinton to shame.

Meanhwhile all these years later, Portis is still productive and also playing through an ACL injury. Good luck finding guys like that.


4 years ago Shanahan was looking for the next TD, portis was a whiney money hungry ******* and deserved to get booted out. Terrell was a team player if portis played and acted like TD we probally would of broke the bank for him. He never showed us that he deserved it.

Wrong. If Shanahan was so enamored with TD, why did he draft a fast RB, which is more like what Portis was? Its more likely the case Shanahan was trying to rub it in Portis' face. Guess what? It didnt exactly work. We traded Bell and Foster for some CB who isnt cutting it. Meanwhile, Champ has been injured the past two years. Again, what exactly did we win in this deal? Besides that, what Portis has done in Washington isnt as relevant as what he would have done in Denver. And since Portis, no one has come close, yet you have a number of clowns around here who think replacing someone like that is as easy as shopping for groceries.

lex
11-22-2008, 07:20 PM
please give it a rest you are not going to convince ANYONE that did not think that poorti$$$$ walked on water this was a bad trade..


PLEASE your only digging your self into an indefensible position...

Jake wars part duex

Im not trying to convince anyone as much as I enjoy shooting each of your feeble arguments down from the sky one by one. Im not digging anything. This talk is something you choose to believe but something that is born of your own imagination. You like Champ and so you start there and work the facts around that using flawed logic, selective sampling, and poor reading comprehension as it turns out.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Is this ground hog day?

I keep seeing the same crap every time I look into this thread..

poorti$$$$ can do no wrong and we screwed up in trading him for champ..

Think this LAMO conversation started back in 2003.. and it will not go away. even though it has been beaten down time and again..

lex
11-22-2008, 07:23 PM
Is this ground hog day?

I keep seeing the same crap every time I look into this thread..

poorti$$$$ can do no wrong and we screwed up in trading him for champ..

Think this LAMO conversation started back in 2003.. and it will not go away. even though it has been beaten down time and again..

Then stop posting in it.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 07:29 PM
Then stop posting in it.

I was hoping you' take a subtle hint..

lex
11-22-2008, 07:35 PM
I was hoping you' take a subtle hint..
Why should I? Im doing nothing wrong.

Lonestar
11-22-2008, 07:37 PM
I was hoping you' take a subtle hint..


Why should I? Im doing nothing wrong.


I was hoping you' take a subtle hint..

need I say more?

lex
11-22-2008, 07:40 PM
need I say more?


Good. Youre obviously too busy to waste time on the internet so Im sure you could find other things to do that you dont find as bothersome.


SPLAT!

OMorange&blue
11-22-2008, 08:16 PM
Good. Youre obviously too busy to waste time on the internet so Im sure you could find other things to do that you dont find as bothersome.


SPLAT!

Hey Lex!

You want to explain to me how we wasted a second rounder on a worthless punt returner again? Or maybe you'd rather go over opportunity cost as it relates to professional football? Either way, it'll be fun.

Northman
11-22-2008, 08:26 PM
Hey Lex!

You want to explain to me how we wasted a second rounder on a worthless punt returner again? Or maybe you'd rather go over opportunity cost as it relates to professional football? Either way, it'll be fun.


Careful, you dont want to anger Lex too much or else you'll get your very own thread made about you. :lol:

nevcraw
11-22-2008, 08:31 PM
Im not trying to convince anyone as much as I enjoy shooting each of your feeble arguments down from the sky one by one. Im not digging anything. This talk is something you choose to believe but something that is born of your own imagination. You like Champ and so you start there and work the facts around that using flawed logic, selective sampling, and poor reading comprehension as it turns out.

Unfourtnatly lex it is your attempts that are a bit feeble in building a legit argument. I very much enjoy this discussion and reading your reasoning because your putting some interesting thoughts out there, except at the end of it your argument is based on pure speculation of what Portis could have done vs. what champ has done.
Furthermore, Portis adiosed Portis - blame him. He did not deserve the $$$ he wanted so he got himself into hotel Snyder who cannot build a winner but certainly will pay like one.. Not someone to build a team around, is it?

Whomever mentioned the bell vs. Turner was completely on the mark. Instead of lamenting the Portis deal you could and should be bitching about wasting a second on Tbell instead of a bell cow.

Now for a little speculation on my part I bet if you polled every GM not in washington, to a man would take the best CB in th game over a 2 year wonder from the system. One has the potential of 10 years high level play instead of 4-5.

lex
11-22-2008, 08:36 PM
Hey Lex!

You want to explain to me how we wasted a second rounder on a worthless punt returner again? Or maybe you'd rather go over opportunity cost as it relates to professional football? Either way, it'll be fun.

Who said he was worthless?

lex
11-22-2008, 08:37 PM
Unfourtnatly lex it is your attempts that are a bit feeble in building a legit argument. I very much enjoy this discussion and reading your reasoning because your putting some interesting thoughts out there, except at the end of it your argument is based on pure speculation of what Portis could have done vs. what champ has done.
Furthermore, Portis adiosed Portis - blame him. He did not deserve the $$$ he wanted so he got himself into hotel Snyder who cannot build a winner but certainly will pay like one.. Not someone to build a team around, is it?

Whomever mentioned the bell vs. Turner was completely on the mark. Instead of lamenting the Portis deal you could and should be bitching about wasting a second on Tbell instead of a bell cow.

Now for a little speculation on my part I bet if you polled every GM not in washington, to a man would take the best CB in th game over a 2 year wonder from the system. One has the potential of 10 years high level play instead of 4-5.

I dont believe in elves or unicorns and Im not buying what youre trying to sell. Sorry.

OMorange&blue
11-22-2008, 08:52 PM
Who said he was worthless?

You said you would have rather drafted a RB and that drafting a punt returner was a waste.