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View Full Version : GREAT Rule Change Coming to NCAA Football in 2011



spikerman
06-05-2011, 08:15 PM
As some of you may or may not know, Texas HS football uses NCAA rules (with a few exceptions). We're beginning our training for next year and learning some of the rule changes that will be in effect. One of the ones that I'm most happy to see, and have been wanting for some time, is taunting while scoring a TD.

Prior to this year, this was always treated as a dead ball foul. That means that the touchdown counted and the penalty was enforced either on the extra point or the kickoff (the offended team's choice). Starting this year, if a player taunts before scoring the TD it is a spot foul. For instance, if a player breaks away and starts high stepping or turns to wave at the defense or unnecessarily launches himself over the goal line it is a foul from that spot and there is no TD. As an example, if a player breaks away and starts highstepping at the defense's five yard line, the penalty would result in the ball next being spotted at the defense's 20 yard line - no touchdown.

I imagine the first time or two that's called on the field the coaches will be furious with the officials, but then they'll be furious with their players. It's going to be very interesting to see, I think.

Northman
06-06-2011, 12:35 PM
Ghey.

Worst penalty ever in sports.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-06-2011, 01:55 PM
Ghey.

Worst penalty ever in sports.

Yep, it's a game. Don't want the other team to dance? Don't let them score. Don't want them to talk shit? Win the game. Don't like being taunted? Play harder.

Sorry, but the same folks that want to regulate celebrations and make sure nobody's "feewings get hurt" are the same ones that want to give every kid a trophy. Rewarding suckitude is one of the reasons we're going downhill as a nation.

As an adult, especially in the military, I've found one of the most motivating instructional tools is abject humiliation in front of one's peers. Nobody likes to look bad, and I don't know how many times I've heard others say or said myself, "I'll never do that dumb shit again" because I got razzed about screwing something up.

As Sean Connery says in The Rock:

"Losers always whine about doing their best, winners go home and **** the prom queen."

Sure, if you want to flag it in youth sports, great. Teaching kids sportsmanship is important, but in college and especially the pros, it just isn't necessary. What's next? Flagging guys for trash talking each other at the LOS? They'd never play a snap.

spikerman
06-06-2011, 05:11 PM
I'm looking at this from the high school perspective. The idea is that they don't want players calling unnecessary attention to themselves in a team game. At this level (and in college) it's even a penalty to spike the ball after a score.

Whether you believe taunting should be allowed or not, what I like is that if it's going to be a penalty, at least now it has some real bite to it. I personally like taking a harder line toward the taunting because it does nothing but increase the tension on the field, amp up the testosterone, and create a situation where an incident is more likely to happen. From the fans' perspective, that's probably not a big deal, but for those of us on the field who have to deal with the consequences, we would prefer to nip that stuff in the bud.

Northman
06-06-2011, 06:46 PM
I'm looking at this from the high school perspective. The idea is that they don't want players calling unnecessary attention to themselves in a team game. At this level (and in college) it's even a penalty to spike the ball after a score.

Whether you believe taunting should be allowed or not, what I like is that if it's going to be a penalty, at least now it has some real bite to it. I personally like taking a harder line toward the taunting because it does nothing but increase the tension on the field, amp up the testosterone, and create a situation where an incident is more likely to happen. From the fans' perspective, that's probably not a big deal, but for those of us on the field who have to deal with the consequences, we would prefer to nip that stuff in the bud.

Not me, i played football and loved spiking it after a score. If someone gets butthurt over that they shouldnt be playing the game.

T.K.O.
06-06-2011, 07:33 PM
puss-a-fication at it's finest !
the game will be really exciting when the players are no longer allowed to "high-five" each other after a score or win ! yeah !
should cheerleaders only be allowed to sit on benches as well?:confused::lol:

spikerman
06-06-2011, 07:48 PM
puss-a-fication at it's finest !
the game will be really exciting when the players are no longer allowed to "high-five" each other after a score or win ! yeah !
should cheerleaders only be allowed to sit on benches as well?:confused::lol:

You do realize this is not a new rule, right? It's only the enforcement that has changed. If you think this is "puss-a-fication" it has been going on for some time. People still seem to like the game.

T.K.O.
06-06-2011, 07:56 PM
as you realize that my post was sarcastic...players can still high five....but it gets more and more ridicules all the time.
my point is they are "sucking the fun" out of competition ,and it BLOWS !:salute:

spikerman
06-06-2011, 09:04 PM
as you realize that my post was sarcastic...players can still high five....but it gets more and more ridicules all the time.
my point is they are "sucking the fun" out of competition ,and it BLOWS !:salute:

Oh, yeah, I knew what you meant. :beer: Hopefully it never goes that far. I like to see the players having fun and usually team celebrations have a little more leeway. It's when the guys are trying to call attention to themselves that the unsportsman-like conduct penalties come into play. Trust me, as an official, it sucks when you have one team that is already mad getting their noses rubbed in it too. You can anticipate some type of retaliation. In the NFL that's one thing, but in high school things can get out of hand quickly and there could be unanticipated, long-term repercussions on the players. My guess is that's why they strictly limit it at that level.

atwater27
06-06-2011, 09:45 PM
Yep, it's a game. Don't want the other team to dance? Don't let them score. Don't want them to talk shit? Win the game. Don't like being taunted? Play harder.

Sorry, but the same folks that want to regulate celebrations and make sure nobody's "feewings get hurt" are the same ones that want to give every kid a trophy. Rewarding suckitude is one of the reasons we're going downhill as a nation.

As an adult, especially in the military, I've found one of the most motivating instructional tools is abject humiliation in front of one's peers. Nobody likes to look bad, and I don't know how many times I've heard others say or said myself, "I'll never do that dumb shit again" because I got razzed about screwing something up.

As Sean Connery says in The Rock:

"Losers always whine about doing their best, winners go home and **** the prom queen."

Sure, if you want to flag it in youth sports, great. Teaching kids sportsmanship is important, but in college and especially the pros, it just isn't necessary. What's next? Flagging guys for trash talking each other at the LOS? They'd never play a snap.

I'll be your prom Queen if you keep posting like that!

Ravage!!!
06-07-2011, 10:33 AM
Highstepping before getting into the endzone is now a foul? Thats not a good change, thats trying to take the FUN out of the game. Believe it or not, I enjoy watching the athletes have FUN in front of the crowd that is trying to have FUN.

These rules that just keep wanting to make the players into robots with no personality, is taking the GAME out of the game.

MOtorboat
06-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Highstepping before getting into the endzone is now a foul? Thats not a good change, thats trying to take the FUN out of the game. Believe it or not, I enjoy watching the athletes have FUN in front of the crowd that is trying to have FUN.

These rules that just keep wanting to make the players into robots with no personality, is taking the GAME out of the game.

I absolutely abhor the rule that doesn't allow a college athlete to acknowledge the crowd. And that goes back about 10 years. What the hell? A college player can't interact with the students he's representing? When a college player points at the crowd, or acknowledges the home crowd, isn't he then making it about the university and not just himself.

Mini-rant over.

HammeredOut
06-07-2011, 12:34 PM
I can already see it. The headset comes flying off, and a ref gets lit up by coach running at him from the sideline.

Ravage!!!
06-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I absolutely abhor the rule that doesn't allow a college athlete to acknowledge the crowd. And that goes back about 10 years. What the hell? A college player can't interact with the students he's representing? When a college player points at the crowd, or acknowledges the home crowd, isn't he then making it about the university and not just himself.

Mini-rant over.

Bingo. Even if he was pointing at the opposing fans, you don't think college crowds LOVE to hate on an opposing player? Thats what its about... rivalry. Lets embrace that and enjoy it instead of trying to make everyone "sensitive" to the crowd's feelings.

What they SHOULD do, is make a rule that forces the crowd to be quiet while the opposing team is trying to run their offense. It's rude to yell so loudly, and could hurt someone's feeling if they mess up because of all that over-exuberance displayed by the drunken roar.

Thats the next rule I'm shooting for:shots:

Buff
06-07-2011, 02:51 PM
Bunch of old geezers creating outdated rules that don't apply to today's athletes.

Counterproductive and very misguided.

slim
06-07-2011, 03:15 PM
Bunch of old geezers creating outdated rules that don't apply to today's athletes.

Counterproductive and very misguided.

Simmer down, sonny.

BeefStew25
06-07-2011, 04:20 PM
Everybody gets a ribbon! You got 15th place! Great job!

zbeg
06-07-2011, 04:23 PM
The only rules in the rulebook should be the ones that serve the following purposes:

Specify the mechanics of the game (quarter length, equipment specifications, field dimensions, a forward pass is legal behind the line of scrimmage, etc.),

Prevent players from using loopholes that make the game unplayable or draw the game out unnecessarily (like basketball before the 24 second shot clock, when teams would get a lead then just pass the ball until the quarter expired).

Rules for players' safety (late hits, spearing, that sort of thing).

Rules that prevent players/teams from getting an unfair competitive advantage.

This "you can't celebrate" BS doesn't fall into any of the above categories. Oh no, you spiked the ball! Well, that just RUINED THE GAME in, uh...okay, it didn't actually affect anything. But hey, let's impose rules on people acting emotionally in, you know, an emotional game.

Oh, your feelings are hurt because you got scored on? You know how you deal with that? DON'T GET SCORED ON. And if you did get scored on, suck it up. You are going to have failures in life, so deal with it and move on. WTF kind of lessons are you trying to teach these high school kids? "We're going to put you in a protective bubble so that you never face adversity ever, then that way when you enter the real world and you are confronted with the harshness of reality for the first time - and you're in your 20s - you will be ill-equipped to deal with it because we so carefully made sure you never learned one of life's most valuable lessons."

WTF. Seriously.

BroncoWave
06-07-2011, 05:26 PM
I think everyone is completely missing spikerman's point. He's saying this should only be a rule in high school because players on that level are much less mature and those kind of celebrations can lead to fights and things of the sort, making the refs' job much more difficult. He's not saying he likes the rule because it will stop people from getting their feelings hurt, he's saying it's a good rule because it could help to prevent unnecessary extra conflict between the players.

All of these people talking about not being able to salute the fans or celebrate with your teammates after the play are completely missing the point of this thread.

zbeg
06-07-2011, 05:29 PM
I think everyone is completely missing spikerman's point. He's saying this should only be a rule in high school because players on that level are much less mature and those kind of celebrations can lead to fights and things of the sort, making the refs' job much more difficult. He's not saying he likes the rule because it will stop people from getting their feelings hurt, he's saying it's a good rule because it could help to prevent unnecessary extra conflict between the players.

All of these people talking about not being able to salute the fans or celebrate with your teammates after the play are completely missing the point of this thread.

I get it; I just think the mindset of "insulate kids from any potential conflict whatsoever" is doing the kids a disservice. A benign action like high-stepping into the endzone isn't doing anyone any actual harm. If kids are going to get riled up about it, why not teach them that reacting that way is inappropriate, rather than never put them in the position to learn that lesson in the first place?

BroncoWave
06-07-2011, 05:38 PM
I get it; I just think the mindset of "insulate kids from any potential conflict whatsoever" is doing the kids a disservice. A benign action like high-stepping into the endzone isn't doing anyone any actual harm. If kids are going to get riled up about it, why not teach them that reacting that way is inappropriate, rather than never put them in the position to learn that lesson in the first place?

Um, it's kinda part of the refs's job to prevent extracurricular fights if they can. It's not their jobs to teach kids life lessons about fighting. That's their parents and maybe even coaches jobs. It's the refs job to keep order on the field and if this rule helps them do that, then I don't have that big a problem with it.

spikerman
06-07-2011, 05:47 PM
I think everyone is completely missing spikerman's point. He's saying this should only be a rule in high school because players on that level are much less mature and those kind of celebrations can lead to fights and things of the sort, making the refs' job much more difficult. He's not saying he likes the rule because it will stop people from getting their feelings hurt, he's saying it's a good rule because it could help to prevent unnecessary extra conflict between the players.

All of these people talking about not being able to salute the fans or celebrate with your teammates after the play are completely missing the point of this thread.

You summed it up much more eloquently than I did. :beer:

Buff
06-07-2011, 05:49 PM
I think everyone is completely missing spikerman's point. He's saying this should only be a rule in high school because players on that level are much less mature and those kind of celebrations can lead to fights and things of the sort, making the refs' job much more difficult. He's not saying he likes the rule because it will stop people from getting their feelings hurt, he's saying it's a good rule because it could help to prevent unnecessary extra conflict between the players.


And I completely reject that position. It's a dumb rule on any level.

BroncoWave
06-07-2011, 05:52 PM
And I completely reject that position. It's a dumb rule on any level.

That's fine, just wanted to make sure all these people going off on tangents having nothing to do with what spike was saying knew that they were missing his point.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-07-2011, 07:10 PM
That's fine, just wanted to make sure all these people going off on tangents having nothing to do with what spike was saying knew that they were missing his point.

I understand what spikerman was saying and I completely understand his position as an official because this rule has the potential to make his job easier.

Unfortunately, I don't see it being very popular with the fans. It's like if you were a police officer and they made alcohol illegal again - closed all the bars and liquor stores. The amount of DUIs and alcohol related violence and domestic violence would drop tremendously making Cops' jobs easier, but those of us that like to partake in an adult beverage or six would be a little miffed...

:drinking:

T.K.O.
06-07-2011, 07:51 PM
thank goodness this crap was'nt started a couple generations ago.....we may have never seen this ....................

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=958941430932&id=d30a0a730735a54761a9390afe651099&url=http%3a%2f%2frjmccord91.files.wordpress.com%2f 2010%2f02%2fterrell-davis.jpg%3fw%3d200%26h%3d300

spikerman
06-07-2011, 07:59 PM
I understand what spikerman was saying and I completely understand his position as an official because this rule has the potential to make his job easier.

Unfortunately, I don't see it being very popular with the fans. It's like if you were a police officer and they made alcohol illegal again - closed all the bars and liquor stores. The amount of DUIs and alcohol related violence and domestic violence would drop tremendously making Cops' jobs easier, but those of us that like to partake in an adult beverage or six would be a little miffed...

:drinking:

I think part of the problem is that I didn't do a good job with the title of this thread. The rule itself has not changed. The examples I used have always been flagged as unsportsman-like conduct. The difference is the enforcement. In the past, some of these kids knew that they were going to get a flag, but they didn't care because the TD still counted. Now there is some real bite to the enforcement.

I really do look at it differently as an official because football is an emotional game in which stress levels run high throughout and it's often up to us to try to keep the peace. It doesn't take much to set someone over the edge. These are not mature men (even at the college level) and anything that can be used to make a player think twice about doing something the other side may see as provocative is a good thing, imo.

One last thing, just the other night I had a coach furious with me during a semi-pro game because a defensive player targeted his defenseless receiver. I threw the flag for the 15 yard personal foul, but the coach was upset because I didn't eject the player. I said, "Coach, the league rules don't call for an ejection in this case, but the player was assessed a 15 yard penalty." He was pretty upset and all I could tell him was that I don't write the rules, I only enforce them.

Buff
06-07-2011, 08:55 PM
I think part of the problem is that I didn't do a good job with the title of this thread. The rule itself has not changed. The examples I used have always been flagged as unsportsman-like conduct. The difference is the enforcement. In the past, some of these kids knew that they were going to get a flag, but they didn't care because the TD still counted. Now there is some real bite to the enforcement.

I really do look at it differently as an official because football is an emotional game in which stress levels run high throughout and it's often up to us to try to keep the peace. It doesn't take much to set someone over the edge. These are not mature men (even at the college level) and anything that can be used to make a player think twice about doing something the other side may see as provocative is a good thing, imo.

One last thing, just the other night I had a coach furious with me during a semi-pro game because a defensive player targeted his defenseless receiver. I threw the flag for the 15 yard personal foul, but the coach was upset because I didn't eject the player. I said, "Coach, the league rules don't call for an ejection in this case, but the player was assessed a 15 yard penalty." He was pretty upset and all I could tell him was that I don't write the rules, I only enforce them.

I think there is one valid argument for having an excessive celebration penalty at the NCAA and High School levels and that is to prevent amateur athletes from being shown up or unnecessarily humiliated. Sometimes you're dealing with a real talent disparities and the losing team/kids don't deserve to be taunted excessively.

I've always thought that pros should be fair game and that any excessive celebration penalty, dead ball or otherwise, was stupid - who are we protecting/what are we preventing with that rule?

Here's why I disagree with changing the enforcement of this penalty:

There was no problem to begin with. It's not as though bench clearing brawls were getting out of control, or on-field fighting had become more frequent as a result of provocative celebrations.

Most of the time a celebration flag will get thrown and the other team could care less about the celebration going on. It's essentially a victimless (for lack of a better term) crime being enforced by overzealous rulemakers.

It's a bunch of people creating a problem to fit their solution IMO.

spikerman
06-07-2011, 09:04 PM
I think there is one valid argument for having an excessive celebration penalty at the NCAA and High School levels and that is to prevent amateur athletes from being shown up or unnecessarily humiliated. Sometimes you're dealing with a real talent disparities and the losing team/kids don't deserve to be taunted excessively.

I've always thought that pros should be fair game and that any excessive celebration penalty, dead ball or otherwise, was stupid - who are we protecting/what are we preventing with that rule?

Here's why I disagree with changing the enforcement of this penalty:

There was no problem to begin with. It's not as though bench clearing brawls were getting out of control, or on-field fighting had become more frequent as a result of provocative celebrations.

Most of the time a celebration flag will get thrown and the other team could care less about the celebration going on. It's essentially a victimless (for lack of a better term) crime being enforced by overzealous rulemakers.

It's a bunch of people creating a problem to fit their solution IMO.

I can't say I would argue with you about the pros, but I've always been a proponent of acting like you've been there before. I can tell you from experience that it caused more problems than most people realize. There are hundreds or thousands of games that only those in attendance actually see and there are issues from time to time.

Lonestar
06-08-2011, 03:56 AM
I like the rule as I have seen a disparity of talent from both sides.
In 6 man football they have the 45 rule any team in the second have that is up by 45 points the game is called. To lessen the embRssement of the losing team, parents and schools.

In other schools there can be a real difference in talent levels some schools excel inna sport and some do not some have great coaches and others suck.
To have a Reggie Bush type player that is just heads above the rest of the players having him run past you and then get your nose rubbed in it someone is going to get hurt if try get a chance at a cheap shot.

Hope y'all get my perspective. I have nothing against a simple celebration After a great pay or score but act like you have been there before and plan on scoring again.

Ravage!!!
06-08-2011, 10:52 AM
I get teh "act like you've been there".. but at the same time, the games (sports in general) is based about the excitement of SCORING. Thats what pumps up the team, thats what gets the crowd going and the Band playing. So its great to "act if if you been there before"..but man, if everyone did that it would be BORING. It just would. Lets individuals be individuals.

Although I understood spikerman's point about how the penalty enforcement is whats being changed, I just don't like it. Taking AWAY a touchdown for something done AFTER the play.... is silly, imo.

The funny thing is... at the HS games in which there are "problems"... most of the time its the ADULTS in the audience that are causing the hoo-hah. They don't like seeing their kid embarrassed, and they get all bent out of shape over it.

Now you have the problem of the kids/parents/players saying "hah hah, you had your TD taken away".. and that causing problems in the recourse. In the meantime, the kids that got whipped on the field aren't feeling better because the other team just had a TD they earned taken off the scoreboard, because they know they just got whipped.

rcsodak
06-08-2011, 11:00 AM
As some of you may or may not know, Texas HS football uses NCAA rules (with a few exceptions). We're beginning our training for next year and learning some of the rule changes that will be in effect. One of the ones that I'm most happy to see, and have been wanting for some time, is taunting while scoring a TD.

Prior to this year, this was always treated as a dead ball foul. That means that the touchdown counted and the penalty was enforced either on the extra point or the kickoff (the offended team's choice). Starting this year, if a player taunts before scoring the TD it is a spot foul. For instance, if a player breaks away and starts high stepping or turns to wave at the defense or unnecessarily launches himself over the goal line it is a foul from that spot and there is no TD. As an example, if a player breaks away and starts highstepping at the defense's five yard line, the penalty would result in the ball next being spotted at the defense's 20 yard line - no touchdown.

I imagine the first time or two that's called on the field the coaches will be furious with the officials, but then they'll be furious with their players. It's going to be very interesting to see, I think.

Well, I totally disagree, spike. Look, they're KIDS! What's wrong with enjoying the moment?

Now, I don't agree with the waving, or stupid shit like that. But diving? High stepping? What's gonna keep a ref from using his "judgement" on a play that is totally innocuous? Pointing to the sky? Saluting?

Taunting is what happened in dallas with the TD/59yd line antic.

But kids should be allowed to enjoy/celebrate reaching their 'goal' (pun intended).

rcsodak
06-08-2011, 11:04 AM
I'm looking at this from the high school perspective. The idea is that they don't want players calling unnecessary attention to themselves in a team game. At this level (and in college) it's even a penalty to spike the ball after a score.

Whether you believe taunting should be allowed or not, what I like is that if it's going to be a penalty, at least now it has some real bite to it. I personally like taking a harder line toward the taunting because it does nothing but increase the tension on the field, amp up the testosterone, and create a situation where an incident is more likely to happen. From the fans' perspective, that's probably not a big deal, but for those of us on the field who have to deal with the consequences, we would prefer to nip that stuff in the bud.
"*****rman";)

rcsodak
06-08-2011, 11:09 AM
Bingo. Even if he was pointing at the opposing fans, you don't think college crowds LOVE to hate on an opposing player? Thats what its about... rivalry. Lets embrace that and enjoy it instead of trying to make everyone "sensitive" to the crowd's feelings.

What they SHOULD do, is make a rule that forces the crowd to be quiet while the opposing team is trying to run their offense. It's rude to yell so loudly, and could hurt someone's feeling if they mess up because of all that over-exuberance displayed by the drunken roar.

Thats the next rule I'm shooting for:shots:
I remember the day crowd noise was considered "bad" in the NFL.
QB tells the ref he can't hear.....ref tells fans to **** or else....they get louder....hometeam coach is warned by the ref....yada yada yada......

rcsodak
06-08-2011, 11:11 AM
I think everyone is completely missing spikerman's point. He's saying this should only be a rule in high school because players on that level are much less mature and those kind of celebrations can lead to fights and things of the sort, making the refs' job much more difficult. He's not saying he likes the rule because it will stop people from getting their feelings hurt, he's saying it's a good rule because it could help to prevent unnecessary extra conflict between the players.

All of these people talking about not being able to salute the fans or celebrate with your teammates after the play are completely missing the point of this thread.

BTB was always the last player picked.

Be gentle. :lol:

Ravage!!!
06-08-2011, 11:17 AM
rc brings up a point that I forgot to type out. HS football is reff'd by local/home town referees. Although the punishment is set in stone, whats to keep a home town ref from being able to use this rule to take away a TD?

Ravage!!!
06-08-2011, 11:18 AM
I remember the day crowd noise was considered "bad" in the NFL.
QB tells the ref he can't hear.....ref tells fans to **** or else....they get louder....hometeam coach is warned by the ref....yada yada yada......

Yeah.. I do too, and that was a HORRIBLE rule that was absolutely absurd. I can't believe they actually penalized the crowd for being "too loud."

spikerman
06-08-2011, 04:48 PM
I get teh "act like you've been there".. but at the same time, the games (sports in general) is based about the excitement of SCORING. Thats what pumps up the team, thats what gets the crowd going and the Band playing. So its great to "act if if you been there before"..but man, if everyone did that it would be BORING. It just would. Lets individuals be individuals.

Although I understood spikerman's point about how the penalty enforcement is whats being changed, I just don't like it. Taking AWAY a touchdown for something done AFTER the play.... is silly, imo.

The funny thing is... at the HS games in which there are "problems"... most of the time its the ADULTS in the audience that are causing the hoo-hah. They don't like seeing their kid embarrassed, and they get all bent out of shape over it.

Now you have the problem of the kids/parents/players saying "hah hah, you had your TD taken away".. and that causing problems in the recourse. In the meantime, the kids that got whipped on the field aren't feeling better because the other team just had a TD they earned taken off the scoreboard, because they know they just got whipped.

The main point I would like to address is in bold. If the unsportsman-like conduct happens after the touchdown, it's enforced like it always was - on the extra point or on the KO - it's the offended team's choice. This change comes into effect if it happens before the score.

spikerman
06-08-2011, 04:52 PM
Well, I totally disagree, spike. Look, they're KIDS! What's wrong with enjoying the moment?

Now, I don't agree with the waving, or stupid shit like that. But diving? High stepping? What's gonna keep a ref from using his "judgement" on a play that is totally innocuous? Pointing to the sky? Saluting?

Taunting is what happened in dallas with the TD/59yd line antic.

But kids should be allowed to enjoy/celebrate reaching their 'goal' (pun intended).

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this RC. I'm not a buzzkill, but I have seen things get out of hand by taunting. Again, these are not mature individuals. Also, I thought Lonestar made a good point in an earlier post in that many of these teams are not equal athletically. Nothing good can come from rubbing a less talented team's nose in it. One of the primary reasons that these schools even have athletic programs is to teach kids teamwork and sportsmanship. This rule helps to reinforce that, in my opinion.

spikerman
06-08-2011, 04:56 PM
rc brings up a point that I forgot to type out. HS football is reff'd by local/home town referees. Although the punishment is set in stone, whats to keep a home town ref from being able to use this rule to take away a TD?

We officiate in a pretty large area in Texas. Each year we have to fill out a conflict of interest form to indicate if we, or our relatives, either go to, or have gone to a specific school we may cover within the past five years. Once we identify those schools we are not allowed to work them. I don't know of any official that I work with that plays favorites. I suspect it's that way pretty much everywhere.

Ravage!!!
06-08-2011, 05:17 PM
We officiate in a pretty large area in Texas. Each year we have to fill out a conflict of interest form to indicate if we, or our relatives, either go to, or have gone to a specific school we may cover within the past five years. Once we identify those schools we are not allowed to work them. I don't know of any official that I work with that plays favorites. I suspect it's that way pretty much everywhere.

Really? I've played in a lot of cities in Missouri, and it most CERTAINLY had home town favorite referees. One of the biggest games we had, both we adn our in-city rival were ranked top 5 in the state.. the blocked FG was ruled roughing the kicker...even though the ball was flat out blocked. TUrns out the ref was the kicker's uncle.

I hear what you are saying, but there are schools alllllllll over the country that have the people of the town doing the ref'ing. If its against an out of town school, you EXPECT home town calls. Thats just HS football.

Ravage!!!
06-08-2011, 05:18 PM
The main point I would like to address is in bold. If the unsportsman-like conduct happens after the touchdown, it's enforced like it always was - on the extra point or on the KO - it's the offended team's choice. This change comes into effect if it happens before the score.

Fair enough. So its just the interpretation by the referee to determine if he was "taunting" before the TD or not.

Still seems like its a pretty ROUGH call for highstepping into the end-zone.

spikerman
06-08-2011, 05:28 PM
Really? I've played in a lot of cities in Missouri, and it most CERTAINLY had home town favorite referees. One of the biggest games we had, both we adn our in-city rival were ranked top 5 in the state.. the blocked FG was ruled roughing the kicker...even though the ball was flat out blocked. TUrns out the ref was the kicker's uncle.

I hear what you are saying, but there are schools alllllllll over the country that have the people of the town doing the ref'ing. If its against an out of town school, you EXPECT home town calls. Thats just HS football.

If the referee had a family member playing in the game he had no business officiating that game.

I can honestly say that I've never worked or watched a game here in Texas where it appeared that one team was getting "home town calls." I can't say it never happens, but I would suspect that it happens a lot less often than you would imagine. I've been accused of giving one team all of the calls, but that's usually from a coach whose team is getting beaten pretty soundly. That's not unusual to hear that from a coach.

True story, a couple of weeks ago our crew was working a Spring scrimmage and one coach was giving us a hard time about all of the calls going against his team. Nothing special there, except this was an intrasquad scrimmage. They were all on the same team. :lol:

Ravage!!!
06-08-2011, 06:57 PM
True story, a couple of weeks ago our crew was working a Spring scrimmage and one coach was giving us a hard time about all of the calls going against his team. Nothing special there, except this was an intrasquad scrimmage. They were all on the same team. :lol:

:lol: :lol:

Thats a classic story!! :laugh:

Bullgator
07-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Simply put this is a an amateur game where the players do not get paid and by in large play only for fun. To rob them of celebrating is = to Nazi Germany IMO. Now if you were to enforce this on paid professionals, I could accept it even though I still think is gay.

Lonestar
07-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Simply put this is a an amateur game where the players do not get paid and by in large play only for fun. To rob them of celebrating is = to Nazi Germany IMO. Now if you were to enforce this on paid professionals, I could accept it even though I still think is gay.



Germany hardly, the Nazis killed millions because of their gene pool.

you need to get out more..

Lonestar
07-04-2011, 11:02 AM
while they do not get paid they get their education free if they are smart enough to take advantage of it, plus their internship for the NFL.

they hardly play for fun, it is a job for them that they make a good return on their efforts.

most if they had to pay for the education would be 8-25 k per semester. so getting that in return for about 20 hours of work a week is not bad.

Northman
07-23-2011, 12:27 PM
The rule is still ghey no matter the level of competition. Fights break out on every level so its a ridiculous enforcement.

OrangeHoof
07-23-2011, 01:40 PM
My rule for TD celebrations is this:

Once you cross the goal line, you and only you have five seconds to celebrate the TD. Six, and there's a 10 yard penalty enforced on the kickoff.

During those five seconds the celebrant can do whatever he likes, whether that's genuflect, kneel down, spike the ball, slap the goalpost, shoot the bird, dance on the other team's logo in the end zone, simulate urinating on the other team's logo in the end zone, whatever. But he has to be done in five seconds and you can bet the coaches will demand they be finished in four.

That way, you have no rules trying to interpret the meaning of a gesture - which is my problem with celebration rules - only that they need to be trotting back to the sidelines or the huddle within the five seconds.

Oh, and if a coach wants to challenge the five second violation, it is reviewable.

That's my take. Uniformly enforced.

As for taunting *before* crossing the goal line, AFAIC you're still fair game before the goal line is crossed and it's perfectly okay if some defender wants to take out your knee while you're hot dogging.

spikerman
07-23-2011, 04:52 PM
While we're debating whether it should be a rule or not I thought I would post the rule directly from the NCAA Football 2011 and 2012 Rules and Interpretations. It's a long rule, so I won't post all of it, just the pertinent parts. Also, if you all haven't ever read a rule book before (I hadn't before I started officiating) you can get a glimpse as to how complicated it can get. One last thing, the penalty enforcement is bolded because that's how it is in the rule book, not to draw attention to it. The italicized part below is the change this year. All of these, were always treated as dead-ball fouls in the past.


Rule 9-2

ARTICLE 1. There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct or any act that interferes with orderly game administration on the part of the players, substitutes, coaches, authorized attendants or any other persons subject to the rules, before the game, during the game or between periods. Infractions for these acts by players are administered as either live-ball or dead-ball fouls depending on when they occur.

a. Specifically prohibited acts and conduct include:

1. No player, substitute, coach or other person subject to the rules shall use abusive, threatening or obscene language or gestures, or engage in such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning to an opponent, to game officials or to the image of the game, including but not limited to:

(a) Pointing the finger(s), hand(s), arm(s) or ball at an opponent or
imitating the slashing of the throat.
(b) Taunting, baiting or ridiculing an opponent verbally.
(c) Inciting an opponent or spectators in any other way, such as
simulating the firing of a weapon or placing a hand by the ear to
request recognition.
(d) Any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which
a player (or players) attempts to focus attention upon himself (or
themselves).
(e) An unopposed ball carrier obviously altering stride as he
approaches the opponent's goal line or diving into the end zone.
(f) Removal of a player's helmet before he is in the team area. (There
is an exception for injuries and timeouts (my words not the rule
book's).
(g) Punching one's own chest or crossing one's arms in front of the
chest while standing over a prone player.
(h) Going into the stands to interact with spectators, or bowing at the
waist after a good play.

PENALTY - Live-ball fouls by players: 15 yards. Live-ball fouls by non-players and all dead-ball fouls: 15 yards from succeeding spot. Automatic first down for fouls by Team B if not in conflict with other rules. Flagrant offenders, if players or substitutes shall be disqualified.

spikerman
07-23-2011, 04:55 PM
The rule is still ghey no matter the level of competition. Fights break out on every level so its a ridiculous enforcement.

Fights (with punches being thrown) don't happen that often, but a lot of times it's acts like these that cause them. At our level (and in college) the act of taking a swing at an opponent is an automatic ejection whether there is contact or not. In fact, if the official determines that the person being swung at instigated the swing, they are both ejected. That's a pretty big deal at the HS and college levels.

Northman
07-23-2011, 09:53 PM
Fights (with punches being thrown) don't happen that often, but a lot of times it's acts like these that cause them. At our level (and in college) the act of taking a swing at an opponent is an automatic ejection whether there is contact or not. In fact, if the official determines that the person being swung at instigated the swing, they are both ejected. That's a pretty big deal at the HS and college levels.

Than eject them. The greatest asset to any human being let alone a athlete is self control. Its the same thing as "sticks and stones". I could care less if an athlete dances the jig in the endzone. Its up to me as a player to ensure he doesnt get there. Simply celebrating isnt a good enough reason to claim taunting. Apparently today's generation of players are getting far too thin skinned. The funny thing is, i dont blame the players. I blame the coaches and those who dont raise them better.

spikerman
07-23-2011, 09:59 PM
Than eject them. The greatest asset to any human being let alone a athlete is self control. Its the same thing as "sticks and stones". I could care less if an athlete dances the jig in the endzone. Its up to me as a player to ensure he doesnt get there. Simply celebrating isnt a good enough reason to claim taunting. Apparently today's generation of players are getting far too thin skinned. The funny thing is, i dont blame the players. I blame the coaches and those who dont raise them better.

At my level we're talking about kids, not grown men. They don't have control of their emotions in the best of times and football is an emotional game where you have two groups of players attempting to physically impose their will. Reason is replaced with testosterone. Nobody wants to have high school kids ejected. That brings a lot of potential long-term trouble, both to the players and the teams. Why not try to nip that type of behavior in the bud?

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue, but frankly even if I disagreed with it, my job would be to enforce the rule.

Northman
07-25-2011, 07:25 AM
At my level we're talking about kids, not grown men. They don't have control of their emotions in the best of times and football is an emotional game where you have two groups of players attempting to physically impose their will. Reason is replaced with testosterone. Nobody wants to have high school kids ejected. That brings a lot of potential long-term trouble, both to the players and the teams. Why not try to nip that type of behavior in the bud?

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue, but frankly even if I disagreed with it, my job would be to enforce the rule.

Exactly. Why wait until it happen to address it? Why not talk with them both before the games, and have their parents address accountability. You say that they are too young to understand that and i fully disagree. Ive seen younger kids who dont act like that. Its not they cant its that they arent being taught not too. In this day and age where we award athletes because they play well on the field far too soon instead of teaching them self control. Yes, we will have to agree to disagree and i applaud you for enforcing the rules. But that has never been my gripe, i just think its a stupid rule.

sneakers
08-07-2011, 01:01 AM
Germany hardly, the Nazis killed millions because of their gene pool.

you need to get out more..

http://corellianrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GodwinsLaw2.jpg

champbronc2
08-09-2011, 03:14 PM
You gonna take away a players touchdown for hurting the other teams feelings? Well shoot, you shouldn't even be on the field in the first place then.

spikerman
08-09-2011, 07:41 PM
You gonna take away a players touchdown for hurting the other teams feelings? Well shoot, you shouldn't even be on the field in the first place then.

If they violate the rule before they score then it's not a TD and, technically, the player would be negating his own TD.

champbronc2
08-09-2011, 10:49 PM
If they violate the rule before they score then it's not a TD and, technically, the player would be negating his own TD.

Right, I know, but I'm arguing the basis of the rule even being created.

Surely they are trying to keep the game respectable, sportsmanlike, etc. but kids will be kids. I can understand flagging something flagrant, like flipping a player off, but high stepping is just.. fun? I mean, when I used to play backyard ball you always have fun high stepping when you got everyone beat.

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