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NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 06:33 PM
In his 1986 Baseball Abstract, Bill James summed up one of his most important recurring analytical themes: "Bad organizations will tend to project their weaknesses onto their best players, and ultimately will dwell not on what the player can do, but on what he can't."

That theme also applies to pro football, and the most recent egregious case of this would have to be Kyle Orton.

During his three seasons (2005-2008) with the Chicago Bears, Orton posted a 21-12 record. On most teams, having a 26-year-old quarterback (Orton's age during the 2008 season) capable of winning two out of every three starts would be seen as a boon, but that wasn't the case with the Bears.

Read the full article at the link below.

This is an ESPN insider piece so mods please dont chop it up.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=6593183

turftoad
05-26-2011, 06:57 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 07:00 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Whats the matter, lack something intelligent to say?

NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 07:03 PM
Orton might not be pretty, but if I had no Qb on my team and had to pick any of the Qbs available, Id chose Orton.

slim
05-26-2011, 07:04 PM
Orton isn't half as bad as a lot of the ass clowns here make him out to be....but he is not a top 10 QB either.

He is a good NFL QB. Not great, not a scrub.

BroncoStud
05-26-2011, 07:08 PM
Whats the matter, lack something intelligent to say?

The author is digging DEEP to find something redeeming there to justify his argument...

He's crucifying Kolb, who has started what, 4 games in his career? :rolleyes:

He cherrypicks what stats, and they are OBSCURE stats to support the premise with and disregards the 3rd down rates, the redzone failures, the lack of scoring offense, the crucial turnovers, the crucial sacks taken, the lack of 4th quarter playmaking, the fact that the Bears were ESTATIC to get rid of him, the fact that Cutler took Orton's team in Chicago to the NFC Championship in his 2nd year as their starter, the fact that the Broncos were 3-11 with him at QB this season...

He cherry picks a few obscure stats that Orton was top 10 in, one was a 3-way tie for 9th :laugh::laugh::laugh:, and passes it off as insider information...

Please... Kolb is the most sought-after QB available.

BroncoStud
05-26-2011, 07:09 PM
Orton isn't half as bad as a lot of the ass clowns here make him out to be....but he is not a top 10 QB either.

He is a good NFL QB. Not great, not a scrub.

He's about an average QB, and his "stats" along with win/losses pretty much verify it, that and taking a few minutes to watch him play on Sundays will also support it.

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 07:30 PM
I believe the stats that were listed, were more of the individual type, rather than team.
Seems if you're going to compare qbs(which I dislike), that is how to do it properly.

Ravage!!!
05-26-2011, 07:32 PM
Orton isn't half as bad as a lot of the ass clowns here make him out to be....but he is not a top 10 QB either.

He is a good NFL QB. Not great, not a scrub.

RIght.. he's a average, mediocre, QB.. someone in the middle of the pack. I think thats what most people have been saying.

BroncoStud
05-26-2011, 07:41 PM
I believe the stats that were listed, were more of the individual type, rather than team.
Seems if you're going to compare qbs(which I dislike), that is how to do it properly.

Football is a TEAM sport as much as it is individual. How can you feasibly cherrypick yards per completion over 11 yards, and ignore TDs or QB rating, or 3rd down conversions? I mean, didn't the line block long enough for him to allow him time to hit deep throws? Didn't Brandon Lloyd likely do a circus catch for him to collect that stat?

Nice try RC but wrong again.

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 08:50 PM
Football is a TEAM sport as much as it is individual. How can you feasibly cherrypick yards per completion over 11 yards, and ignore TDs or QB rating, or 3rd down conversions? I mean, didn't the line block long enough for him to allow him time to hit deep throws? Didn't Brandon Lloyd likely do a circus catch for him to collect that stat?

Nice try RC but wrong again.

Ask your bud rav what he thinks about the qbr.
And I believe alot of the other stats are contingent on what he has around him.

I know you're not naive enough to say NO running game and NO TE wont have an effect on 3rd down/rz percentages.

NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 08:52 PM
The author is digging DEEP to find something redeeming there to justify his argument...

He's crucifying Kolb, who has started what, 4 games in his career? :rolleyes:

He cherrypicks what stats, and they are OBSCURE stats to support the premise with and disregards the 3rd down rates, the redzone failures, the lack of scoring offense, the crucial turnovers, the crucial sacks taken, the lack of 4th quarter playmaking, the fact that the Bears were ESTATIC to get rid of him, the fact that Cutler took Orton's team in Chicago to the NFC Championship in his 2nd year as their starter, the fact that the Broncos were 3-11 with him at QB this season...

He cherry picks a few obscure stats that Orton was top 10 in, one was a 3-way tie for 9th :laugh::laugh::laugh:, and passes it off as insider information...

Please... Kolb is the most sought-after QB available.

I agree with that Kolb is more sought after. Hes younger and has a bigger arm than Orton. But Orton can help a team like the Vikings by managing the offense and not turning the ball over. Teams like the Dolphins would love a player like him.

You think hes mediocre, but considering Qbs dont grow on trees, that makes him valuble to at least half the teams, right?

Point is the Broncos are in a good situation with Tebow and Orton. One is at least proven, the other has superstar potential. It could be much, much worse.

TXBRONC
05-26-2011, 08:52 PM
Stats just don't tell the whole story lay an eyeball what happened on the field and that will give you better picture of what those really mean. All the writer did pointed to the stats put the very best light on Orton. There are plenty of stats that tell a different story about Orton's play.

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 08:56 PM
I don't know where this superstar label has cme from, re kolb.

Latest news.....2 HC's....unnamed of course, said" NO WAY" would they want him for a #1 pick.
I've yet to hear any football heads on sirius say he's worth the hype. But just the same......drastic teams will take drastic measures.
Which could also bode well for orto.

TXBRONC
05-26-2011, 08:58 PM
I don't know where this superstar label has cme from, re kolb.

Latest news.....2 HC's....unnamed of course, said" NO WAY" would they want him for a #1 pick.
I've yet to hear any football heads on sirius say he's worth the hype. But just the same......drastic teams will take drastic measures.
Which could also bode well for orto.

He's not being labeled a superstar but he is thought to have more upside than Orton.

Tned
05-26-2011, 09:09 PM
This is an ESPN insider piece so mods please dont chop it up.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=6593183

Mods please don't chop it up? There are guidelines for posting copyrighted material for a reason, which is so that we don't have an intellectual property lawyer "chop up" BroncosForums. Anyone not familiar with the article posting guidelines NEEDS to read them: http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207433

Northman
05-26-2011, 09:18 PM
RIght.. he's a average, mediocre, QB.. someone in the middle of the pack. I think thats what most people have been saying.

Obviously that must of went over Slim's head the last two years. :lol:

Ravage!!!
05-26-2011, 09:24 PM
So far the speculation has been reported that Kolb is the highest sought after QB in FA. If its Orton, I'm not sure thats saying much. I don't think either QB is much.. but we have much more to see that with the body of work from Orton than we do with Kolb.

I think that is EXACTLY why Kolb is the more wanted QB. Other teams don't REALLY know what they have in Kolb considering his body of work is so small in comparison to Orton. Teams know what they get in Orton, and there isn't much to "hope" for as the hidden potential. He is what he is. With Kolb they at least have a 'hope' that he might be more.... much like the chance KC took with Cassel.

Northman
05-26-2011, 09:26 PM
So far the speculation has been reported that Kolb is the highest sought after QB in FA. If its Orton, I'm not sure thats saying much. I don't think either QB is much.. but we have much more to see that with the body of work from Orton than we do with Kolb.

I think that is EXACTLY why Kolb is the more wanted QB. Other teams don't REALLY know what they have in Kolb considering his body of work is so small in comparison to Orton. Teams know what they get in Orton, and there isn't much to "hope" for as the hidden potential. He is what he is. With Kolb they at least have a 'hope' that he might be more.... much like the chance KC took with Cassel.

Anyway you look at it there isnt a vast array of great QB's in the market anyway. Of course Orton would be up there because of the experience he has behind center. Do you think if Drew Brees was on the market Orton would still be the leading canidate? I mean, come on. lol

Ravage!!!
05-26-2011, 09:35 PM
Anyway you look at it there isnt a vast array of great QB's in the market anyway. Of course Orton would be up there because of the experience he has behind center. Do you think if Drew Brees was on the market Orton would still be the leading canidate? I mean, come on. lol

Even Carson Palmer's name comes at the top of the discussion when talking about "possible" available QBs. His name would be at the top of the list had the owner for Cinci not proclaimed that there is no way he's trading Carson. So his name is taken off the short list.

Ravage!!!
05-26-2011, 09:39 PM
Hell.. I've forgotten about McNabb. I'm betting a team like Minnesota, who just drafted a QB, would be more interested in McNabb than they would Orton. McNabb is built to win NOW, while giving the young QB some mentoring. The Vikings would get a leader, veteran, QB that is very experienced in the division. So I'm thinking McNabb will end up with the Vikings before Orton does simply because they don't have to give a long-term contract to McNabb.

WHICH is a shame....for that lessens the number of teams that might be willing to give up the 2nd round pick.

NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 09:40 PM
Anyway you look at it there isnt a vast array of great QB's in the market anyway. Of course Orton would be up there because of the experience he has behind center. Do you think if Drew Brees was on the market Orton would still be the leading canidate? I mean, come on. lol

Wow. Good point.
















:lol:

TXBRONC
05-26-2011, 09:53 PM
Hell.. I've forgotten about McNabb. I'm betting a team like Minnesota, who just drafted a QB, would be more interested in McNabb than they would Orton. McNabb is built to win NOW, while giving the young QB some mentoring. The Vikings would get a leader, veteran, QB that is very experienced in the division. So I'm thinking McNabb will end up with the Vikings before Orton does simply because they don't have to give a long-term contract to McNabb.

WHICH is a shame....for that lessens the number of teams that might be willing to give up the 2nd round pick.

There has been speculation that McNabb is a possible candidate to go to Minnesota.

If the Vikings land McNabb and the Cardinals land Kolb where are the other possible landing spots for Orton? Right off the top of my head the only one I can think of is Miami.

Ravage!!!
05-26-2011, 10:06 PM
There has been speculation that McNabb is a possible candidate to go to Minnesota.

If the Vikings land McNabb and the Cardinals land Kolb where are the other possible landing spots for Orton? Right off the top of my head the only one I can think of is Miami.

Thats a great question. Seattle and Miami are the only ones I can think of.

Orton woudl be an upgrade in Miami, I think that would be a good match. Seattle and Oakland are two teams that need a QB that haven't really invested in a young one the last two years, except AZ

May have to wait/hope for an injury to happen early before season starts...... damn those no practices!!

TXBRONC
05-26-2011, 11:28 PM
Thats a great question. Seattle and Miami are the only ones I can think of.

Orton woudl be an upgrade in Miami, I think that would be a good match. Seattle and Oakland are two teams that need a QB that haven't really invested in a young one the last two years, except AZ

May have to wait/hope for an injury to happen early before season starts...... damn those no practices!!

With Oakland you never know what's going through Al Davis' head. If they are looking for a different quarterback I don't if Orton would be that good of a fit considering Al Davis wants a vertical offense that throws deep on a consistent basis. Throwing the long ball isn't Orton's strength.

Lonestar
05-27-2011, 12:25 AM
I'd guess there will be lots of chapped asses on this subject.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 02:25 AM
With Oakland you never know what's going through Al Davis' head. If they are looking for a different quarterback I don't if Orton would be that good of a fit considering Al Davis wants a vertical offense that throws deep on a consistent basis. Throwing the long ball isn't Orton's strength.

You keep saying that. Yet Orton proved himself one of the better deep passers
in the league last year. For a time, he was #1 in the league in passing plays
over 40 yards and #3 over 30.

Here are a few examples of Orton's long ball:


51 yards in the air, caught in full stride. "That is what Kyle Orton does really well: throw the long ball." http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81bbed13/Orton-to-Lloyd-for-71-yards

56 yards in the air, perfectly where only the receiver could catch it. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81b3840b/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-44-yd-pass-TD

59 yards in the air, over the defender. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81b379fa/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-42-yd-pass-TD

40 yards in the air, full stride over defender's fingertips. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c7c6d8/Lloyd-41-yard-TD-reception

41 yards in the air, over the defender. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c7eeda/QB-Orton-to-WR-Gaffney-28-yd-pass

50 yards in the air, over three defenders. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c1ed2e/QB-Orton-to-WR-Gaffney-40-yd-pass-TD

42 yards in the air, between two defenders. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c1ead6/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-37-yd-pass

51 yards in the air, over defender. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81b974c1/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-46-yd-pass

62 yards in the air. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81adcb79/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-48-yd-pass-TD

42 yards in the air, tiny window between two defenders. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81a7a282/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-41-yd-pass


There are more, but I'm stressed for time . . .

-----

WARHORSE
05-27-2011, 03:55 AM
1st off, lets get it out of the way that Kolbs arm is stronger than Ortons.

Its not.

In arm strength, a perfect knock off for Kolb would be Brian Griese. That name alone just stood up some neck hairs.

But its true.


Whether you take Orton or Kolb depends upon the price Im sure.


Which would I take......Kolb for a first or Orton for a second? Id definitely take Orton.


Kolb doesnt have as much proven, but his potential is still up in the air. However, if the Fleagulls decide Vick is the future and Kolb is dispensible......doesnt THAT tell you something?

While Vick is dynamic, hes also a lot older and a more fragile QB. So why are the Eagles so willing to let go of Kolb?


Could simply be the situation, but also Kafka is in the wings, and people are whispering about him.


Has Orton maxed out his potential? I definitely dont think so, because his play action demands a running game he didnt have in Denver under McDoofus.

Also, its easy to see that Ortons passing game has evolved to a greater degree over the last two years. I believe with an Oline and a running game, Orton is definitely the way to go.


That being said, Orton needs to garner us some value......or dont trade him.


If he stays and ends up playing, we can only hope he plays either very well or very poorly.


I too believe Orton is the top QB available.

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 06:00 AM
At this point, whether the Broncos end up keeping Orton or are able to send him to another organization is somewhat irrelevant. What's significant is the lack of willingness of two different teams to stick with him as the starter -- making many believe that Orton is a stopgap measure at best



Bolded for truth.....

WARHORSE
05-27-2011, 06:30 AM
At this point, whether the Broncos end up keeping Orton or are able to send him to another organization is somewhat irrelevant. What's significant is the lack of willingness of two different teams to stick with him as the starter -- making many believe that Orton is a stopgap measure at best



Bolded for truth.....


Perhaps so, but we also have to remember that a teams situation will dictate alot as well.


Cutlers availability, along with Ortons sporadic starts and play brought an easy decision to Chitown. In Denver, had we not taken Tebow, we probably would all be sitting on Orton, and talking about Quinn a heckuva lot more.

BTW, Quinn has yet to get a fair shot here imo.

If Orton were sitting in Miami, they would be signing him to a longer termed contract, even if it werent a mega deal.



Tebow showed flashes, and Quinn is an untapped source of ability. Quinn does absolutley no good in Denver with both Tebow and Orton here.

Im surprised Quinn hasnt been thought of as a trade commodity more here.

Teams are simply selling that he couldnt unseat Tebow or Orton.

Since you cant run as a QB in training camp for real, and defensive players cant tackle you for real, its moot in thinking Tebows playmaking ability with his feet are accurately gauged during training camp. Therefore, how is it that Tebow unseated Quinn for spot number two on the depth chart?


Was it Tebows ability in special short yardage and goaline packages? Was it a leadership issue? Or was it a young headcoach who felt the pressure to make his highly controversial first round draft pick look good in the eyes of those who mattered?


HMMmmmmm........:coffee:


Tebow got his chance and he did well with it. I hope at some point Quinn gets a true shot as well.

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 06:50 AM
You keep saying that. Yet Orton proved himself one of the better deep passers
in the league last year. For a time, he was #1 in the league in passing plays
over 40 yards and #3 over 30.

Here are a few examples of Orton's long ball:


51 yards in the air, caught in full stride. "That is what Kyle Orton does really well: throw the long ball." http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81bbed13/Orton-to-Lloyd-for-71-yards

56 yards in the air, perfectly where only the receiver could catch it. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81b3840b/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-44-yd-pass-TD

59 yards in the air, over the defender. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81b379fa/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-42-yd-pass-TD

40 yards in the air, full stride over defender's fingertips. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c7c6d8/Lloyd-41-yard-TD-reception

41 yards in the air, over the defender. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c7eeda/QB-Orton-to-WR-Gaffney-28-yd-pass

50 yards in the air, over three defenders. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c1ed2e/QB-Orton-to-WR-Gaffney-40-yd-pass-TD

42 yards in the air, between two defenders. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81c1ead6/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-37-yd-pass

51 yards in the air, over defender. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81b974c1/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-46-yd-pass

62 yards in the air. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81adcb79/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-48-yd-pass-TD

42 yards in the air, tiny window between two defenders. http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81a7a282/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-41-yd-pass


There are more, but I'm stressed for time . . .

-----

Ummmmmmmm.......... Here's a question for you then:

IF you "found" 10 passes completed for MORE than 40 yards...while being 'stressed for time'.....

"WHy does Kyle Orton's "Official NFL player stats from Elias Sports Bureau (Official Stats of NFL)" show that he is: 5-11 for "Passes past 41 yards in 2010", and 1-6 in passes past 41 yards in 2009"

I mean golly... you would think that the NFL would have guys who are paid to look at tape and come up with these numbers........ right?

so Kyle is 6-17 PAST 41 yards as a Bronco QB.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8520&sYear=2009

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8520&sYear=2010


So now the NFL is even wrong about Kyle huh?

HORSEPOWER 56
05-27-2011, 06:50 AM
The only reasons Kolb is even mentioned are because:

a) He's coached by Andy Reed and Marty Morninwheg. That breeding is desirable in today's NFL.

b) He's still relatively young and was a decent prospect coming out.

c) He's played okay in his few starts, but his numbers just aren't great 11 TDs, 14 INTs. For some reason teams look at him and see Matt Shaub.

d) Most importantly, it's been widely announced he'll be available for the right price, i.e. he's being actively shopped.

Kolb is completely overrated but in a QB starved market, he appears to be the best available prospect, which is false, IMO. I'm just glad we're not in the market and he's not on our radar.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 07:26 AM
He's not being labeled a superstar but he is thought to have more upside than Orton.
"Upside" Now there's a misnomer.
Just means they have no frickin idea what they have. Lol

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 07:32 AM
The only reasons Kolb is even mentioned are because:

a) He's coached by Andy Reed and Marty Morninwheg. That breeding is desirable in today's NFL.

b) He's still relatively young and was a decent prospect coming out.

c) He's played okay in his few starts, but his numbers just aren't great 11 TDs, 14 INTs. For some reason teams look at him and see Matt Shaub.

d) Most importantly, it's been widely announced he'll be available for the right price, i.e. he's being actively shopped.

Kolb is completely overrated but in a QB starved market, he appears to be the best available prospect, which is false, IMO. I'm just glad we're not in the market and he's not on our radar.
Spot on.

HammeredOut
05-27-2011, 08:21 AM
Football is a TEAM sport as much as it is individual. How can you feasibly cherrypick yards per completion over 11 yards, and ignore TDs or QB rating, or 3rd down conversions? I mean, didn't the line block long enough for him to allow him time to hit deep throws? Didn't Brandon Lloyd likely do a circus catch for him to collect that stat?

Nice try RC but wrong again.

Orton had 20 TDs, and only 9 interceptions with all those passes he threw, he was careful with the ball. Only 2 QB's in the league had completed more passes of 20 yards or more, so Orton's big arm down field isn't a problem. Hitting deep routes is not a problem. Orton's QB rating was better then all of John Elways QB ratings in his entire career except for 2 or 3 seasons.

3rd down conversions is a touchy subject because the running game was getting stuffed all year long, leaving a ton of 3rd and longs. The run game has been a problem for 2 seasons, Kyle was winning games when his ground game was getting him 19 total yards a game, and 65 yards a game. When ever Cutler, or Elway had less then 65 games in rushing, they lost every game.

Orton was so good last season, he made Brandon Lloyd into an All Pro. That is laughable, because who the hell is Brandon Lloyd, and why is he our number 1 reciever. That just goes to show how good Orton makes other players around him. He had no run game to wear down defenses, he had no defense to keep points off the clock, infact they were so bad, they gave up 30 points a game all season.

So if you want to bring out the win loss stat.. Bring out the 30 points given up a game by the defense, and the 59 yards a game on the ground we averaged. That pretty much sums it up.

Lonestar
05-27-2011, 08:31 AM
Let's see how many Teams looking for a strong QB.

Mia
Min
Oak
SFO
PHX
Buf
Might be more but at least these teams.

How many QBs?

Y'all can piss and moan all you want about how great kolb is and how bad (in your eyes) Orton is, but THe facts are there are many more teams looking than there is klob. Even if klob goes first there are 3-5 other teams that bid for Orton.

Get used to to being wrong once again. Time to let go of the hate.

I for one hope he finds a gig that allows him to play and show the haters just how wrong they were.

That said I'm a firm fan of Tebow and hope he becomes that FQB that everyone seems to ache for.

BroncoStud
05-27-2011, 08:32 AM
1st off, lets get it out of the way that Kolbs arm is stronger than Ortons.

Its not.

In arm strength, a perfect knock off for Kolb would be Brian Griese. That name alone just stood up some neck hairs.

But its true.


Whether you take Orton or Kolb depends upon the price Im sure.


Which would I take......Kolb for a first or Orton for a second? Id definitely take Orton.


Kolb doesnt have as much proven, but his potential is still up in the air. However, if the Fleagulls decide Vick is the future and Kolb is dispensible......doesnt THAT tell you something?

While Vick is dynamic, hes also a lot older and a more fragile QB. So why are the Eagles so willing to let go of Kolb?


Could simply be the situation, but also Kafka is in the wings, and people are whispering about him.


Has Orton maxed out his potential? I definitely dont think so, because his play action demands a running game he didnt have in Denver under McDoofus.

Also, its easy to see that Ortons passing game has evolved to a greater degree over the last two years. I believe with an Oline and a running game, Orton is definitely the way to go.


That being said, Orton needs to garner us some value......or dont trade him.


If he stays and ends up playing, we can only hope he plays either very well or very poorly.


I too believe Orton is the top QB available.

Vick had one of the most impressive seasons as an NFL QB that we have seen in some time last year, he was amazing. He would have taken the starting position away from all but 3 QBs in the NFL, those 3 being Brady, Manning, and Rodgers. So Kolb losing his job to Vick after 1/2 of a football game and getting injured has NOTHING to do with Kolb and has EVERYTHING to do with Vick.

As far as arm strength goes, Kolb has hands down the better arm when compared to Orton. Kolb is mobile, accurate, and has a good arm. He's a solid prospect in a situation where a better player had a great season and took his job.

I don't see the Eagles easily parting with him, it's going to take a high draft pick to get him, but the Eagles are being SMART and trying to get high value for him because he will not stay on longterm as a backup. How quickly we forget that players have choices too, and Kolb knows he has a market as a starting QB, as does Orton.

BroncoStud
05-27-2011, 08:33 AM
Ummmmmmmm.......... Here's a question for you then:

IF you "found" 10 passes completed for MORE than 40 yards...while being 'stressed for time'.....

"WHy does Kyle Orton's "Official NFL player stats from Elias Sports Bureau (Official Stats of NFL)" show that he is: 5-11 for "Passes past 41 yards in 2010", and 1-6 in passes past 41 yards in 2009"

I mean golly... you would think that the NFL would have guys who are paid to look at tape and come up with these numbers........ right?

so Kyle is 6-17 PAST 41 yards as a Bronco QB.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8520&sYear=2009

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8520&sYear=2010


So now the NFL is even wrong about Kyle huh?

Doh! The conspiracies against Kyle are mounting... It's terrible, they're out to get him. :elefant:

Lonestar
05-27-2011, 08:39 AM
Let me Add lots of folks hate the kid for two simple reasons.

He replaced their QB God cutler.

Josh whom most hate even more, chose him.

Plain and simple.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 08:41 AM
"Upside" Now there's a misnomer.
Just means they have no frickin idea what they have. Lol

That may very well be true. At the same time it appears teams seeing Orton as having reached ceiling point.

BroncoStud
05-27-2011, 08:49 AM
Let me Add lots of folks hate the kid for two simple reasons.

He replaced their QB God cutler.

Josh whom most hate even more, chose him.

Plain and simple.

Nah, I think it has more to do with his defeatist attitude and the fact he's 31% converting 3rd downs since coming to Denver. Or maybe we just don't like him being our QB because he isn't very good? Most of us have seen GOOD QB play here in Denver, we know what it looks like, how it feels, what it's capable of...

Orton doesn't fit the definition of what most of us ignorant and foolish Denver fans feel is a GOOD QB. I don't speak for everyone, but I know I speak for at least some.

Don't forget, Tebow is a McDaniels guy as well, so your 2nd point is moot.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 09:00 AM
Don't forget, Tebow is a McDaniels guy as well, so your 2nd point is moot.

This gets overlooked by some people when they attack other posters.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 09:24 AM
That may very well be true. At the same time it appears teams seeing Orton as having reached ceiling point.

So since when is a mid 60's%, 3600+ yds, 3:1 td/int qb a bad thing?

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 09:41 AM
So since when is a mid 60's%, 3600+ yds, 3:1 td/int qb a bad thing?

I didn't say it was a bad thing. Btw mid 60% for what?

His td/int is not 3:1. It's a little bit better than 2:1. It 's not bad but it's not 3:1.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 11:11 AM
I didn't say it was a bad thing. Btw mid 60% for what?

His td/int is not 3:1. It's a little bit better than 2:1. It 's not bad but it's not 3:1.
Completions. And mybad...I thought he threw 6ints last yr.

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 11:16 AM
"Upside" Now there's a misnomer.
Just means they have no frickin idea what they have. Lol

Exactly, and with Orton they absolutely know what they have

HammeredOut
05-27-2011, 12:20 PM
Nah, I think it has more to do with his defeatist attitude and the fact he's 31% converting 3rd downs since coming to Denver. Or maybe we just don't like him being our QB because he isn't very good? Most of us have seen GOOD QB play here in Denver, we know what it looks like, how it feels, what it's capable of...

Orton doesn't fit the definition of what most of us ignorant and foolish Denver fans feel is a GOOD QB. I don't speak for everyone, but I know I speak for at least some.

Don't forget, Tebow is a McDaniels guy as well, so your 2nd point is moot.

Orton is not a good QB based on what stats?

3rd down conversion comes from not having a run game with Moreno, because he is averaging 2.2 yards from his own 20, and is the worst 1st down running back in the league.

A shot of logic straight to your brain...

1st down.. The run game gets stuffed for an average of 2.2 yards..
2nd down.. The pass game gets us a first down..

1st down... The run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards..
2nd down.. The run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards..
3rd and 6.. Third and long... Everybody knows the pass is coming because the run is getting stuffed is not a threat..

1st down.. The run game gets stuffed again..
2nd down... the run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards.
3rd and 6.. Everybody knows the pass is coming.. no guess work..

Look at the game logs and do a little research. Things you can do as a fan, is look at 1st and 2nd down, and see why the Broncos are 3rd and long. Sorta like if you add 1 plus 1... you should get 2..

John Elway only had 2 or 3 seasons that were better then Kyle Orton's QB rating, so Im not sure which good QBs out there you are talking about. Elway was the greatest bronco QB, and his seasons weren't nearly as good as Ortons, until his late 30s.

I have time to give you a little football lesson. Usually a 3rd down conversitions come by way of being successfull on 1st and 2nd down. Coach's across America always suggest that, if we can convert 3rd and short all night, we should have a good chance to win. The problem with Denver, because the Running backs are the worst in the NFL, is they don't run 1st and 2nd down that great, so coaching had to work with 3rd and longs all season. Just watch a Broncos game on Sunday, and watch running 1st and 2nd down, and look at the game logs, and game stats.

So if your implying that its Orton's fault because the defense can't keep points off the board at a 30 point per game average, and its Orton's fault that his run game, gave him 3rd and longs all season, and everybody knew we were never a threat to run for a 1st down. Then you have a long ways to go son. Im glad our fans have as much passion about the team as you.

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 12:27 PM
Orton is not a good QB based on WATCHING him play. Stats are only part of the story here, and not the entire story. Watch Orton play in big moments.

THere is a reason that Orton has never been considered one of the top QBs in the NFL, and its not because he's ugly.

Your excuses of the running game have NOTHING to do with it. Teams all over the NFL plan for PASSES against 3rd downs. Most teams have a 3rd down back, or run out of shot gun in 3rd down situtations. Whats the difference if we have a running game in passing situations? Nothing. Orton is HORRIBLE in passing situations. He's HORRIBLE when the game is in need of a big play from him.

He's not a good QB, never has been considered a good QB, and despite you despise/distaste/ or hate for Tebow, Orton will NEVER be a good QB. He's going to be just what he is... a mediocre/average QB that will remain in the middle of the pack just long enough for the team he plays for to replace him.

The COmparisons to him and his play to Elway is absolutely one of the most RIDICULOUS things I've ever seen. Its absolutely stupid, and just goes to prove what I've always been saying.... the QB rating is the absolutely DUMBEST thing to use to compare QBs. It was made in 1970 based on 1970 averages for the formula. It's actually a number for the simple, since it puts a cute lil number up for people to use as a comparitive. "Oh.. the bigger number must mean he's better." Absurd.

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 12:53 PM
In 1970, the year the QB rating was developed and the year the "averages" were used to make up the formula (the SAME formula still used today) There was not a single passer that threw over 3000 yrds. They played 14 games and had only 26 teams. QBs threw in the mid 300-350 attempts per season.

QBs today have 2 more games and average 450-500 attempts per season. QBs today have rules that keep the QBs protected and can't be hit. WRs get free releases and no longer have to worry about the big hits across the middle. They can't be touched after 5 yrds down the field.

Yet the same formula that uses the 1970 'averages' is the one that we use today, and we want to compare QBs from today to the ones in the 70s, 80, and 90s. Makes no sense.

Its a 'number' produced by some made-up formula, to try and tell you which QB plays well? Really? THIS is what you want to base your argument on?

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 12:55 PM
Orton is not a good QB based on what stats?

3rd down conversion comes from not having a run game with Moreno, because he is averaging 2.2 yards from his own 20, and is the worst 1st down running back in the league.

A shot of logic straight to your brain...

1st down.. The run game gets stuffed for an average of 2.2 yards..
2nd down.. The pass game gets us a first down..

1st down... The run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards..
2nd down.. The run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards..
3rd and 6.. Third and long... Everybody knows the pass is coming because the run is getting stuffed is not a threat..

1st down.. The run game gets stuffed again..
2nd down... the run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards.
3rd and 6.. Everybody knows the pass is coming.. no guess work..

Look at the game logs and do a little research. Things you can do as a fan, is look at 1st and 2nd down, and see why the Broncos are 3rd and long. Sorta like if you add 1 plus 1... you should get 2..

John Elway only had 2 or 3 seasons that were better then Kyle Orton's QB rating, so Im not sure which good QBs out there you are talking about. Elway was the greatest bronco QB, and his seasons weren't nearly as good as Ortons, until his late 30s.

I have time to give you a little football lesson. Usually a 3rd down conversitions come by way of being successfull on 1st and 2nd down. Coach's across America always suggest that, if we can convert 3rd and short all night, we should have a good chance to win. The problem with Denver, because the Running backs are the worst in the NFL, is they don't run 1st and 2nd down that great, so coaching had to work with 3rd and longs all season. Just watch a Broncos game on Sunday, and watch running 1st and 2nd down, and look at the game logs, and game stats.

So if your implying that its Orton's fault because the defense can't keep points off the board at a 30 point per game average, and its Orton's fault that his run game, gave him 3rd and longs all season, and everybody knew we were never a threat to run for a 1st down. Then you have a long ways to go son. Im glad our fans have as much passion about the team as you.

Elway took five teams to the Super Bowl. Kyle Orton has taken how to the Super Bowl?

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 01:11 PM
In 1970, the year the QB rating was developed and the year the "averages" were used to make up the formula (the SAME formula still used today) There was not a single passer that threw over 3000 yrds. They played 14 games and had only 26 teams. QBs threw in the mid 300-350 attempts per season.

QBs today have 2 more games and average 450-500 attempts per season. QBs today have rules that keep the QBs protected and can't be hit. WRs get free releases and no longer have to worry about the big hits across the middle. They can't be touched after 5 yrds down the field.

Yet the same formula that uses the 1970 'averages' is the one that we use today, and we want to compare QBs from today to the ones in the 70s, 80, and 90s. Makes no sense.

Its a 'number' produced by some made-up formula, to try and tell you which QB plays well? Really? THIS is what you want to base your argument on?

Who were the top 8 in qbr last year? Honest question.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 01:12 PM
For the 100000000000000000000000th time.

Elway≠orton

SOCALORADO.
05-27-2011, 01:13 PM
When the games on the line, Orton folds like a wet paper towel.
Any big throws hes made down field are primarily successful because the recievers made a circus catch of his pure crap throw.
Orton is a career backup, but in a offense that is overloaded with superstars, he could manage the team, ala Trent Dilfer, and be successful inspite of his shortcomings.
Now if only this damn lockout would end, and MIN would make the call.

Northman
05-27-2011, 01:29 PM
Orton is not a good QB based on what stats?

3rd down conversion comes from not having a run game with Moreno, because he is averaging 2.2 yards from his own 20, and is the worst 1st down running back in the league.

A shot of logic straight to your brain...

1st down.. The run game gets stuffed for an average of 2.2 yards..
2nd down.. The pass game gets us a first down..

1st down... The run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards..
2nd down.. The run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards..
3rd and 6.. Third and long... Everybody knows the pass is coming because the run is getting stuffed is not a threat..

1st down.. The run game gets stuffed again..
2nd down... the run game gets stuffed for 2.2 yards.
3rd and 6.. Everybody knows the pass is coming.. no guess work..

Look at the game logs and do a little research. Things you can do as a fan, is look at 1st and 2nd down, and see why the Broncos are 3rd and long. Sorta like if you add 1 plus 1... you should get 2..

John Elway only had 2 or 3 seasons that were better then Kyle Orton's QB rating, so Im not sure which good QBs out there you are talking about. Elway was the greatest bronco QB, and his seasons weren't nearly as good as Ortons, until his late 30s.

I have time to give you a little football lesson. Usually a 3rd down conversitions come by way of being successfull on 1st and 2nd down. Coach's across America always suggest that, if we can convert 3rd and short all night, we should have a good chance to win. The problem with Denver, because the Running backs are the worst in the NFL, is they don't run 1st and 2nd down that great, so coaching had to work with 3rd and longs all season. Just watch a Broncos game on Sunday, and watch running 1st and 2nd down, and look at the game logs, and game stats.

So if your implying that its Orton's fault because the defense can't keep points off the board at a 30 point per game average, and its Orton's fault that his run game, gave him 3rd and longs all season, and everybody knew we were never a threat to run for a 1st down. Then you have a long ways to go son. Im glad our fans have as much passion about the team as you.


This is a fabulous post because it totally explains what most of us have been trying to say and that is Orton is a average QB at best and that his high stats last season are very misleading. While he did have a poorous run game, and a bad defense these are ALL things that guys like Elway and even Cutler have faced while in Denver. The difference though with Elway is when plays broke down the man stepped it up and won some games on his own talent. For Cutler, he was still much better on 3rd downs while still dealing with bad defenses and poor running games. Well done Hammered. \m/

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 01:29 PM
Who were the top 8 in qbr last year? Honest question.

1) Brady
2) Rivers
3) Manning
4) Rodgers
5) Brees
6) Rothlesburger
7) Ryan
8) Cutler

topscribe
05-27-2011, 01:36 PM
Elway took five teams to the Super Bowl. Kyle Orton has taken how to the Super Bowl?

That is really a horribly unfair question. First of all, as I displayed in this post (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155),
Elway never took a team to the SB that had a 30th placed pass defense plus a
24th ranked running game (Chicago 2008), or a 26th ranked rushing defense
(Denver 2009), much less a last place overall defense and a 24th ranked rushing
offense (2010 - a running game that was ranked #32 for some of the year).

I'm not discounting Elway. IMO, he may be the G.O.A.T. of QBs. I'm just saying
that, first, even a legend such as Elway needed a good supporting cast, and,
second, it is ridiculous, IMO, to compare in that way two different QBs who
played on two different teams in two different eras.



This is a fabulous post because it totally explains what most of us have been trying to say and that is Orton is a average QB at best and that his high stats last season are very misleading. While he did have a poorous run game, and a bad defense these are ALL things that guys like Elway and even Cutler have faced while in Denver. The difference though with Elway is when plays broke down the man stepped it up and won some games on his own talent. For Cutler, he was still much better on 3rd downs while still dealing with bad defenses and poor running games. Well done Hammered. \m/

Once again, take a look at this post (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155) to see how the quality of Elway's
supporting casts respectively through the years affected his own records.

-----

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 01:39 PM
When a QB is able to stay on the field, and score, that helps his defense out. When a team is able to score First, it helps the defense out. When the defense is always on their heels, and always behind, and knows that their offense can not catch them up.... they are weakened. Stronger the QB, the stronger their defense is.

Northman
05-27-2011, 01:41 PM
That is really a horribly unfair question. First of all, as I displayed in this post (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155),
Elway never took a team to the SB that had a 30th placed pass defense plus a
24th ranked running game (Chicago 2008), or a 26th ranked rushing defense
(Denver 2009), much less a last place overall defense and a 24th ranked rushing
offense (2010 - a running game that was ranked #32 for some of the year).

I'm not discounting Elway. IMO, he may be the G.O.A.T. of QBs. I'm just saying
that, first, even a legend such as Elway needed a good supporting cast, and,
second, it is ridiculous, IMO, to compare in that way two different QBs who
played on two different teams in two different eras.

-----


Good point, Better stick with a guy like Peyton Manning this past year. Ranked 28th in rushing and 20th in defense and he still got his team to the playoffs.

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Orton is not a good QB based on what stats?

3rd down conversion comes from not having a run game with Moreno, because he is averaging 2.2 yards from his own 20, and is the worst 1st down running back in the league.



Kyle Orton Career-

2005- #2 rushing O,
47.8 3rd down QB rating
43.3 comp %

2007-
#30 rushing
56.4 3rd down QB rating
42.4% comp

2008-
#24 rushing
70.5 3rd down QB rating
50.8 comp %

2009-
#18 rushing
86.9 3rd down qb rating
54.4 comp%

2010-
#23 rushing
58.0 3rd down QB rating
50 % comp


No its Kyle... one year BARELY above 50% comp for 3rd downs....

Its either Kyle or our Pro Bowl wideouts/ anyone who plays with Kyle...drops passes on third downs

topscribe
05-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Good point, Better stick with a guy like Peyton Manning this past year. Ranked 28th in rushing and 20th in defense and he still got his team to the playoffs.

And to the Super Bowl, right?

I may be wrong, but there seems a difference between #20 and #32.

Nonetheless, notice TX mentioned SBs, and I answered accordingly . . .

-----

Northman
05-27-2011, 01:47 PM
Kyle Orton Career-

2005- #2 rushing O,
47.8 3rd down QB rating
43.3 comp %

2007-
#30 rushing
56.4 3rd down QB rating
42.4% comp

2008-
#24 rushing
70.5 3rd down QB rating
50.8 comp %

2009-
#18 rushing
86.9 3rd down qb rating
54.4 comp%

2010-
#23 rushing
58.0 3rd down QB rating
50 % comp


No its Kyle... one year BARELY above 50% comp for 3rd downs....

Its either Kyle or our Pro Bowl wideouts/ anyone who plays with Kyle...drops passes on third downs


Ouch. Complete ownage.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 01:47 PM
Who were the top 8 in qbr last year? Honest question.

Quaterback rating?

1.) Tom Brady

2.) Philip Rivers

3.) Aaron Rogers

4.) Michael Vick

5.) Ben Roethlisberger

6.) Josh Freeman

7.) Joe Flacco

8.) Matt Cassel

9.) Matt Schaub

10.) Peyton Manning

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2010/seasontype/2

It depends on what category you want.

Northman
05-27-2011, 01:48 PM
And to the Super Bowl, right?

I may be wrong, but there seems a difference between #20 and #32.

Nonetheless, notice TX mentioned SBs, and I answered accordingly . . .

-----

Bottom of the barrell is bottom of the barrell mate. Indy didnt even have a average defense last year. And i saw the SB posts but TX's point was that Elway had more to offer as a QB than Orton does. As has been stated a hundred times Orton needs far more help to succeed than the great QB's past and present.

slim
05-27-2011, 01:49 PM
1) Brady
2) Rivers
3) Manning
4) Rodgers
5) Brees
6) Rothlesburger
7) Ryan
8) Cutler

:laugh:

Vick, Freeman, Flacco and Cassel all had better years than Cutler did.

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 01:49 PM
Good point, Better stick with a guy like Peyton Manning this past year. Ranked 28th in rushing and 20th in defense and he still got his team to the playoffs.

How about Kurt Warner a few years ago...
#28 Rushing
#21 defense

yet somehow got his team to the Super Bowl.... man

Northman
05-27-2011, 01:51 PM
:laugh:

Vick, Freeman, Flacco and Cassel all had better years than Cutler did.

Yet none got to their conference championship games. :laugh:

slim
05-27-2011, 01:53 PM
Yet none got to their conference championship games. :laugh:

Yeah, too bad none of them drew the worst playoff team in history in the first round :welcome:

Northman
05-27-2011, 01:55 PM
Yeah, too bad none of them drew the worst playoff team in history in the first round :welcome:

Yea, thats really the QB's fault. :lol::rolleyes:

topscribe
05-27-2011, 02:01 PM
Ouch. Complete ownage.

Not really. Notice from the chart how the QBR and comp % varies proportionately
with the quality of the running game (except Orton's rookie year, which was . . .
well, his rookie year).

A minor correction for 2010: the running game was ranked at #24. I might note
again that it was at #32 for a portion of the year.

In addition, those all are overall rushing records. How about 3rd down rushing?
That would be interesting to note since we have seen the 3rd down passing
performances . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 02:02 PM
:laugh:

Vick, Freeman, Flacco and Cassel all had better years than Cutler did.

In what way? Because you say so, or becaus you are looking at some stat sheet? I mean, you are more than welcome to have that opinion, but I don't see it that way at all.

I feel very confident that Cutler is a better QB than Vick, Freeman, Flacco and Cassel.

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, too bad none of them drew the worst playoff team in history in the first round :welcome:

the very team that beat the Saints the game bfore? :confused:

topscribe
05-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Bottom of the barrell is bottom of the barrell mate. Indy didnt even have a average defense last year. And i saw the SB posts but TX's point was that Elway had more to offer as a QB than Orton does. As has been stated a hundred times Orton needs far more help to succeed than the great QB's past and present.

Of course Elway had more to offer. Why even bother to state that?
What QBs could you not say that in comparison to Elway?

But, for all the verbosity in trying to dance around it, 20th > 32nd.

Go ahead. Argue with that . . .

-----

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 02:06 PM
Yeah, too bad none of them drew the worst playoff team in history in the first round :welcome:

No....

Drew Brees.. Super Bowl MVP did and guess what?

He threw for 404 yards and LOST to "The worst playoff team EVER!!!!!!"

So yeah... stas really do matter when talking about football games right?

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 02:13 PM
Of course Elway had more to offer. Why even bother to state that?
What QBs could you not say that in comparison to Elway?

But, for all the verbosity in trying to dance around it, 20th > 32nd.

Go ahead. Argue with that . . .

-----

LAST year when our scoring defense was ranked #12......... I think we won 8 games right?

slim
05-27-2011, 02:57 PM
Yea, thats really the QB's fault. :lol::rolleyes:

Didn't say it was his fault. But it doesn't change the facts.


In what way? Because you say so, or becaus you are looking at some stat sheet? I mean, you are more than welcome to have that opinion, but I don't see it that way at all.

I feel very confident that Cutler is a better QB than Vick, Freeman, Flacco and Cassel.

Good point, using stats to compare players is silly.


the very team that beat the Saints the game bfore? :confused:

Yes, that team.


No....

Drew Brees.. Super Bowl MVP did and guess what?

He threw for 404 yards and LOST to "The worst playoff team EVER!!!!!!"

So yeah... stas really do matter when talking about football games right?

Yes, that team.

Guess what, upsets happen sometimes :noidea:

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 02:57 PM
1) Brady
2) Rivers
3) Manning
4) Rodgers
5) Brees
6) Rothlesburger
7) Ryan
8) Cutler

Thanks rav.

Now. How many of the 8^, had their team in the playoffs?

I'm just doing this for one point, the I'll drop it.

The qbr may be old/outdated and mundane, but it sure tied in with playoff qb's. At least last year.

Ps. Now i'm glad orton played hurt, or my point woulda been shot to shit. ;)

slim
05-27-2011, 02:59 PM
Thanks rav.

Now. How many of the 8^, had their team in the playoffs?

I'm just doing this for one point, the I'll drop it.

The qbr may be old/outdated and mundane, but it sure tied in with playoff qb's. At least last year.

Ps. Now i'm glad orton played hurt, or my point woulda been shot to shit. ;)

He didn't rank the player based on QB rating :listen:

topscribe
05-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Thanks rav.

Now. How many of the 8^, had their team in the playoffs?

I'm just doing this for one point, the I'll drop it.

The qbr may be old/outdated and mundane, but it sure tied in with playoff qb's. At least last year.

Ps. Now i'm glad orton played hurt, or my point woulda been shot to shit. ;)

I'll make the point: What if Orton would have been pulled, as he should have
been, for the second KC game and not put in until he was healthy (like maybe
the remainder of the season, for the injuries he incurred)?

He then would have been #6 on that list in QBR, with a 96.0.

-----

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:01 PM
When a QB is able to stay on the field, and score, that helps his defense out. When a team is able to score First, it helps the defense out. When the defense is always on their heels, and always behind, and knows that their offense can not catch them up.... they are weakened. Stronger the QB, the stronger their defense is.

Or visa versa.

Or you're baltimore of the 6-3 games.

broncohead
05-27-2011, 03:07 PM
I'll make the point: What if Orton would have been pulled, as he should have
been, for the second KC game and not put in until he was healthy (like maybe
the remainder of the season, for the injuries he incurred)?

He then would have been #6 on that list in QBR, with a 96.0.

-----

His choice to play players play injured all the time. Kyle isn't the first so keep using that excuse doesn't meen anything.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:08 PM
Good point, Better stick with a guy like Peyton Manning this past year. Ranked 28th in rushing and 20th in defense and he still got his team to the playoffs.
This is when stats lie.

Their defense got strong at the end.

Good thing they had good TE play.

And finally, did you see how many int's he threw from not having a run game? Playing from behind?
And he's elite!

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:19 PM
Yea, thats really the QB's fault. :lol::rolleyes:
You ARE the spinmaster. LMAO

topscribe
05-27-2011, 03:21 PM
His choice to play players play injured all the time. Kyle isn't the first so keep using that excuse doesn't meen anything.

Of course it doesn't mean anything to someone who apparenly doesn't know the
differences among the respective injuries . . . :coffee:

-----

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:30 PM
No....

Drew Brees.. Super Bowl MVP did and guess what?

He threw for 404 yards and LOST to "The worst playoff team EVER!!!!!!"

So yeah... stas really do matter when talking about football games right?
Wow. Ok then.

Thanks for showing all of us that when a great qb like brees has said stats and still loses, that an above average qb like orton can as well. :lol:

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:33 PM
He didn't rank the player based on QB rating :listen:
Lol...I should've known better...especially when I saw cutler on there. :tsk:

But by the looks of tx's list, my point is still valid.

Thx tx.

(And you, slim ;) l

topscribe
05-27-2011, 03:34 PM
Wow. Ok then.

Thanks for showing all of us that when a great qb like brees has said stats and still loses, that an above average qb like orton can as well. :lol:

Isn't it amazing how they will talk about QBs as if they are the only player on the team?

-----

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:39 PM
Isn't it amazing how they will talk about QBs as if they are the only player on the team?

-----
Only when it helps their cause.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 03:52 PM
Good point, Better stick with a guy like Peyton Manning this past year. Ranked 28th in rushing and 20th in defense and he still got his team to the playoffs.

I'm pretty sure Manning won a Super Bowl with a defense that was ranked dead last or close to it '06.

If Orton is this "potential" franchise quarterback that I've heard he is then should have been able to muster a little better record than 3-10. :pepsi:

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Manning won a Super Bowl with a defense that was ranked dead last or close to it '06.

If Orton is this "potential" franchise quarterback that I've heard he is then should have been able to muster a little better record than 3-10. :pepsi:
How did indy's 'last place D' do in the playoffs that year, tx?
For some reason, they get better at the end of the regular seasons. I know part of the reason is whether or not they had their PB safety.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 04:04 PM
I'm pretty sure Manning won a Super Bowl with a defense that was ranked dead last or close to it '06.

If Orton is this "potential" franchise quarterback that I've heard he is then should have been able to muster a little better record than 3-10. :pepsi:

Right . . . at least a 5-11, like Elway's in 1990.

And the 2006 Colts were #21 overall on defense . . .

But what is with this comparing to a QB who some think is the G.O.A.T.? Do you
really believe our QB should be as good as Manning? Here is breaking news:
Elway is retired.

-----

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 04:07 PM
How did indy's 'last place D' do in the playoffs that year, tx?
For some reason, they get better at the end of the regular seasons. I know part of the reason is whether or not they had their PB safety.

You missed the point. The point is that even with a last place defense they got there it had never been done before. Also if Orton is as good as some people say he is then we should have won a few more games than we did. It sure wasn't because we lacked opportunity.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 04:10 PM
You missed the point. The point is that even with a last place defense they got there it had never been done before. Also if Orton is as good as some people say he is then we should have won a few more games than we did. It sure wasn't because we lacked opportunity.

Are you still insisting it was the last-place defense?

And you are still on that "win more games" kick? Didn't you notice Elway's 1990 record?

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1270196&postcount=90

Oh yes, Elway had the 20th ranked defense and 14th ranked rushing that year.


BTW, Elway also had Shannon Sharpe, Clarence Kay, and Orson Mobley for TEs . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Wow. Ok then.

Thanks for showing all of us that when a great qb like brees has said stats and still loses, that an above average qb like orton can as well. :lol:

Actually.. thats exactly what we've been saying. Stats don't matter, and we all know GREAT QBs lose games. So we aren't judging Orton on his stats alone, nor his w/l, alone.. but his PLAY. His play, alone, is what tells most people that he's nothing more than an average/mediocre/middle of the road... QB.

So he didn't make a point FOR ORton by showing that a Super MVP can have great stats and LOSE.. because that same QB has shown he can win...where Orton has not.

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 04:14 PM
I'm pretty sure Manning won a Super Bowl with a defense that was ranked dead last or close to it '06.

If Orton is this "potential" franchise quarterback that I've heard he is then should have been able to muster a little better record than 3-10. :pepsi:

jeez talk about late bloomer. :lol: the only association his name would come connected to franchise is "killer".
if this career lobotomy could actually take place ol KO better toughen up. He crumbles more than a cookie in milk.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 04:17 PM
jeez talk about late bloomer. :lol: the only association his name would come connected to franchise is "killer".
if this career lobotomy could actually take place ol KO better toughen up. He crumbles more than a cookie in milk.

Late bloomer?

You are aware last year was his 4th on the field, are you not?

You are aware of the history of such QBs as Drew Brees and Jim Plunkett, are you not?

-----

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 04:22 PM
He's been in the NFL 7 years. No one is claiming that Rodgers is only a 3rd year player. Orton is a 7 year vet, and has been replaced, traded away, and replaced several times now. If that's not a late bloomer for this "up and coming" franchise QB, I don't know what is!! :lol:

jhns
05-27-2011, 04:32 PM
Every single time that Orton has been the starter, his coach was looking to replace him.

This does not happen to good QBs...

Orton may be the best QB that is available. The thing is, how often have you seen a team give up a good QB? Being the best of the garbage is not impressive.

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Late bloomer?

You are aware last year was his 4th on the field, are you not?

You are aware of the history of such QBs as Drew Brees and Jim Plunkett, are you not?

-----

you misinterpret my rational for using late bloomer. yes he's still failry young but has had plenty of experience. almost all franchise qb's have shown signs of being said franchise QB prior to goingt into their 6th year in the league. The only thing we really know about Orton is he can put up some decent passing stats with a stud WR to catch the ball. but not much else.

Brees showed plenty of signs in San Diego before getting squeezed out and Plunket is a one in a million story. Not really much of a "history" of guys who are both often benched and oft injured turning into a franchise QB in their 6th year..

arapaho2
05-27-2011, 04:59 PM
So far the speculation has been reported that Kolb is the highest sought after QB in FA. If its Orton, I'm not sure thats saying much. I don't think either QB is much.. but we have much more to see that with the body of work from Orton than we do with Kolb.

I think that is EXACTLY why Kolb is the more wanted QB. Other teams don't REALLY know what they have in Kolb considering his body of work is so small in comparison to Orton. Teams know what they get in Orton, and there isn't much to "hope" for as the hidden potential. He is what he is. With Kolb they at least have a 'hope' that he might be more.... much like the chance KC took with Cassel.


heres the crux

kolb is the most sought after potential franchise qb..that is obtainable...whether is actually can achieve that is unknown

orton would be sought after by teams looking for qb competition...by teams with a young qb in the works and needing a capable starter for a season or two

or as a stop gap until they can land the qb they want in the draft

nobody is looking at orton as the #1 qb for the next five yrs

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:09 PM
you misinterpret my rational for using late bloomer. yes he's still failry young but has had plenty of experience. almost all franchise qb's have shown signs of being said franchise QB prior to goingt into their 6th year in the league. The only thing we really know about Orton is he can put up some decent passing stats with a stud WR to catch the ball. but not much else.

Brees showed plenty of signs in San Diego before getting squeezed out and Plunket is a one in a million story. Not really much of a "history" of guys who are both often benched and oft injured turning into a franchise QB in their 6th year..

Signs are not any good unless one chooses to see them. But I agree that the
signs are often there. Signs such as 281 yards/game, 7.85 YPA, 3:1 TD/INT ratio,
96.0 QBR . . . those were Kyle's stats before the second KC game. Pretty
good signs . . . unless one's name is Orton, I guess . . .


BTW, Brees' record in 2002 was 8-8, with LT and the #8 rushing game, and
4-12 in 2003 with the same LT and #6 rushing game.

Oh, incidentally, did I mention Rich Gannon and Trent Green?--There seem to
have been a lot of late bloomers around the league . . .

-----

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 05:11 PM
This is when stats lie.

Their defense got strong at the end.

Good thing they had good TE play.

And finally, did you see how many int's he threw from not having a run game? Playing from behind?
And he's elite!

Uh.... You missed the fact that 8 starters on O were on IR at the end of the year for Indy....

3 rookie wideouts and they make the playoffs. They lose the center and playoffs........

HERE.... we have 8 rb's go on IR and its "Culter choked"

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 05:12 PM
Signs are not any good unless one chooses to see them. But I agree that the
signs are often there. Signs such as 281 yards/game, 7.3 YPA, 3:1 TD/INT ratio,
96.0 QBR . . . those were Kyle's stats before the second KC game.

BTW, Brees' record in 2002 was 8-8, with LT and the #8 rushing game, and
4-12 in 2003 with the same LT and #6 rushing game.

Oh, incidentally, did I mention Rich Gannon and Trent Green?--There seem to
have been a lot of late bloomers around the league . . .

-----

Very true... Jay Cutler led HIS team to the playoffs this year..... so Kyle has a "chance"

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 05:15 PM
jeez talk about late bloomer. :lol: the only association his name would come connected to franchise is "killer".
if this career lobotomy could actually take place ol KO better toughen up. He crumbles more than a cookie in milk.

I can't say I ever really thought of it that way. :lol:

Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 05:16 PM
Good grief. How many playoff wins did Trent Green have?

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 05:17 PM
Signs are not any good unless one chooses to see them. But I agree that the
signs are often there. Signs such as 281 yards/game, 7.3 YPA, 3:1 TD/INT ratio,
96.0 QBR . . . those were Kyle's stats before the second KC game.

BTW, Brees' record in 2002 was 8-8, with LT and the #8 rushing game, and
4-12 in 2003 with the same LT and #6 rushing game.

Oh, incidentally, did I mention Rich Gannon and Trent Green?--There seem to
be a lot of late bloomers . . .

-----

Top.. please read a post before you get all snarky about it.. I said the only thing we know that he can pass to a good wr. your "signs" point to an agreement with my premise.

If you consider either trent Green or Rich Gannon Franchise QB's then either my definition of franchise QB is too lofty ot your's in not lofty enough.

and a big LOL to your brees argument. isn't it you who has been banging the "there is more to a QB than their record" drum??

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 05:19 PM
you misinterpret my rational for using late bloomer. yes he's still failry young but has had plenty of experience. almost all franchise qb's have shown signs of being said franchise QB prior to goingt into their 6th year in the league. The only thing we really know about Orton is he can put up some decent passing stats with a stud WR to catch the ball. but not much else.

Brees showed plenty of signs in San Diego before getting squeezed out and Plunket is a one in a million story. Not really much of a "history" of guys who are both often benched and oft injured turning into a franchise QB in their 6th year..

Brees was in 4th year when everything started to click not his 7th like Orton.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:21 PM
Top.. please read a post before you get all snarky about it.. I said the only thing we know that he can pass to a good wr. your "signs" point to an agreement with my premise.

If you consider either trent Green or Rich Gannon Franchise QB's then either my definition of franchise QB is too lofty ot your's in not lofty enough.

and a big LOL to your brees argument. isn't you who has been banging the "there is more to a QB than their record" drum??

Wow, now I'm getting snarky?

Wow, I meant NOTHING personal in my message. :tsk:

I only indicated that we have to look at the signs. If you want to take it a
different way, then that is your problem.

And I was only answering to the W-L standards that you anti-Orton people
have been using. You know, what's fair for the goose . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
05-27-2011, 05:22 PM
Signs are not any good unless one chooses to see them. But I agree that the
signs are often there. Signs such as 281 yards/game, 7.85 YPA, 3:1 TD/INT ratio,
96.0 QBR . . . those were Kyle's stats before the second KC game. Pretty
good signs . . . unless one's name is Orton, I guess . . .


BTW, Brees' record in 2002 was 8-8, with LT and the #8 rushing game, and
4-12 in 2003 with the same LT and #6 rushing game.

Oh, incidentally, did I mention Rich Gannon and Trent Green?--There seem to
have been a lot of late bloomers around the league . . .

-----

Include his entire season, otherwise your stats are worthless.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:24 PM
Include his entire season, otherwise your stats are worthless.

In your mind.

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BroncoJoe
05-27-2011, 05:25 PM
In your mind.

-----

Actually, cherry-picking stats to suit your argument is misleading.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 05:25 PM
Include his entire season, otherwise your stats are worthless.

Cherry picking.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:29 PM
Actually, cherry-picking stats to suit your argument is misleading.


We were talking about signs. I produced what to me were signs. If you want to
produce what to you are signs, be my guest. But what to me are signs are what
are signs to me. I should be the one to determine what are signs to me.

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Ravage!!!
05-27-2011, 05:29 PM
I bet if we take every stat OTHER than the one's he's bad at, then he's pretty good.

If we calculate up every game he played well, then I think his stats show that he's a good QB.

If we calculate out the hypotenuse, plus height of the pass, plus windage, plus accounting for the hurt ankle, adding in the possibility of a bruise on his elbow.. then Orton threw further than everyone!

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Cherry picking.

Who had a better season?

Brian Griese's injury shortened one or Kyle's injury shortened one...

LMAO

Too bad Kyle didnt play BEFORE 1977.....

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 05:33 PM
I bet if we take every stat OTHER than the one's he's bad at, then he's pretty good.

If we calculate up every game he played well, then I think his stats show that he's a good QB.

If we calculate out the hypotenuse, plus height of the pass, plus windage, plus accounting for the hurt ankle, adding in the possibility of a bruise on his elbow.. then Orton threw further than everyone!

Just make sure you divide by 3 and then multiply your answer by number of full moons in the year. :lol:

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 05:36 PM
I bet if we take every stat OTHER than the one's he's bad at, then he's pretty good.

If we calculate up every game he played well, then I think his stats show that he's a good QB.

If we calculate out the hypotenuse, plus height of the pass, plus windage, I'm betting threw further than everyone!

I saw Cutler throw that pass to Marshall in the San Diego game (2008)... Jay was running to the sideline to his right and threw it all the way across the field 45 yards down range......

160 feet wide- 25,600
45 yards-135 feet- 18,225

43,825 feet

209.343442 feet
69.78 yards

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 05:36 PM
Brees was in 4th year when everything started to click not his 7th like Orton.

He actually led his team to the playoffs.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:38 PM
Brees was in 4th year when everything started to click not his 7th like Orton.

Orton was in his 4th year actually on the field last year, and everything started to click.

Of course, the defense and running game stunk up the joint. Damn him for that . . .

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TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 05:40 PM
He actually led his team to the playoffs.

That he did. But he did have a good supporting cast other than wide receivers.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:45 PM
That he did. But he did have a good supporting cast other than wide receivers.

The receivers weren't all that bad, either. Brees had McKardell, Parker, and
Gates, and LT was a terrific receiver in his own right . . .

-----

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 05:46 PM
Wow, now I'm getting snarky?

Wow, I meant NOTHING personal in my message. :tsk:

I only indicated that we have to look at the signs. If you want to take it a
different way, then that is your problem.

And I was only answering to the W-L standards that you anti-Orton people
have been using. You know, what's fair for the goose . . .

-----

lecturing someone about signs when ignoring the post reads pretty snarky.. but don't worry i never take inernet ramblings as a personal assault on my character.
inflated passing stats with crappy 3rd down conversions and a glass jaw in the 4th quarter shows me signs of a soon to be insurance salesman. but hey i admire your steadfast resolve in trying to put a spitshine on that turd. :salute:

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 05:49 PM
lecturing someone about signs when ignoring the post reads pretty snarky.. but don't worry i never take inernet ramblings as a personal assault on my character.
inflated passing stats with crappy 3rd down conversions and a glass jaw in the 4th quarter shows me signs of a soon to be insurance salesman. but hey i admire your steadfast resolve in trying to put a spitshine on that turd. :salute:

Crunch time was not kind to Orton in fact it never has been.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:49 PM
lecturing someone about signs when ignoring the post reads pretty snarky.. but don't worry i never take inernet ramblings as a personal assault on my character.
inflated passing stats with crappy 3rd down conversions and a glass jaw in the 4th quarter shows me signs of a soon to be insurance salesman. but hey i admire your steadfast resolve in trying to put a spitshine on that turd. :salute:

I'll move on now to someone who wants to be less personal.

I don't know why some people have to take a disagreement over a player so
personally, but I have seen that time and again. I just want no part in it . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
05-27-2011, 05:56 PM
Some people should get out of the kitchen if they can't handle the heat.

Especially when they're the ones that keep pouring oil in the burning pan.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 05:56 PM
:rolleyes: Look in a mirror Top you haven't hesitated to dish it out to others.

I made a generic comment about an attitude on this board.

Thank you for providing just the example for it. :salute:


Besides, what you just said is a lie. I have not gotten personal over Orton,
except perhaps in retaliation in the past (which was wrong in itself). But for one
who doesn't want the MHS used for advice, you don't mind challenging someone
on the open board, do you?

-----

Mike
05-27-2011, 05:56 PM
I don't know how anyone can put so much effort in defending Orton.

I hope the FO does such an admirable job...unfortunately, I doubt the rest of the league is all that gullible.

If I were a fan of another team, I would be pissed if they gave up more than a 3rd for Orton...and would probably be irritated if it were a 3rd. All the guy is is a water treader and a place holder until a real starter is found.

PAINTERDAVE
05-27-2011, 05:57 PM
The worst part of this lockout is that we are all
stuck and mired in this purgatory
of not knowing...
of re-hashing...
of second guessing.

It just makes me weary to check in here and see
the same exact arguments back and forth.

Damn these greedy owners and stupid players.

The sun is shining...
the weekend's siren song is calling.

Have a GREAT weekend Bronco fans!

Remember we are all on the same team...! :elefant:

topscribe
05-27-2011, 06:00 PM
I don't know how anyone can put so much effort in defending Orton.

I hope the FO does such an admirable job...unfortunately, I doubt the rest of the league is all that gullible.

If I were a fan of another team, I would be pissed if they gave up more than a 3rd for Orton...and would probably be irritated if it were a 3rd. All the guy is is a water treader and a place holder until a real starter is found.

That's fine. I don't mind.

I kind of feel the same from the other direction: I don't know how anyone can
put so much effort into trying to establish how bad Orton is.

But it doesn't bother me to the point of personal attacks. (Not at you, Mike.)

I'm serious. I have about eight people on Iggy right now, who resorted to
baiting and inflammatory remarks toward me, and it's over Orton. :confused:

They are there because I don't want to get personal. I enjoy bantering about
it, even -- no, especially -- with those who disagree with me. But I just can't
identify with those who develop hostilities over it . . .

P.S. I am grateful to Chaz and GEM for their maturity in disagreeing with me.
A couple of my closest friends on the board, and they are totally on the other
side of the fence about Orton.

P.P.S. I forgot about HP, with whom I have thoroughly enjoyed debate.

-----

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 06:01 PM
I'll move on now to someone who wants to be less personal.

I don't know why some people have to take a disagreement over a player so
personally, but I have seen that time and again. I just want no part in it . . .

-----


HUH? seriously??

this is hardly personal to me.. Orton is just some dude that i will soon be forgeting the the name of.. "remember that dude, what's his name?"

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 06:02 PM
I don't know how anyone can put so much effort in defending Orton.

I hope the FO does such an admirable job...unfortunately, I doubt the rest of the league is all that gullible.

If I were a fan of another team, I would be pissed if they gave up more than a 3rd for Orton...and would probably be irritated if it were a 3rd. All the guy is is a water treader and a place holder until a real starter is found.

If a team gives ups more than a 3rd may not gullible but feeling desperate.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 06:08 PM
The worst part of this lockout is that we are all
stuck and mired in this purgatory
of not knowing...
of re-hashing...
of second guessing.

It just makes me weary to check in here and see
the same exact arguments back and forth.

Damn these greedy owners and stupid players.

The sun is shining...
the weekend's siren song is calling.

Have a GREAT weekend Bronco fans!

Remember we are all on the same team...! :elefant:

Same to you, my friend. Very much the same to you. :beer:

-----

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 06:08 PM
HUH? seriously??

this is hardly personal to me.. Orton is just some dude that i will soon be forgeting the the name of.. "remember that dude, what's his name?"

Neckbeard owns your ass. You'll never forget him. :D

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 06:16 PM
That's fine. I don't mind.

I kind of feel the same from the other direction: I don't know how anyone can
put so much effort into trying to establish how bad Orton is.

But it doesn't bother me to the point of personal attacks. (Not at you, Mike.)


I'm serious. I have about eight people on Iggy right now, who resorted to
baiting and inflammatory remarks toward me, and it's over Orton. :confused:

They are there because I don't want to get personal. I enjoy bantering about
it, even -- no, especially -- with those who disagree with me. But I just can't
identify with those who develop hostilities over it . . .
-----

who's hostile towards you? maybe sarcastic towards Orton but why would you take that personal? this happens in almost every thread.. back and forth back and forth and then poof -- top is mad...

i give up man. :salute:

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 06:23 PM
Neckbeard owns your ass.

that gives me a terrible mental image.. like he's my cellmate in prison.. :tsk:

topscribe
05-27-2011, 06:30 PM
who's hostile towards you? maybe sarcastic towards Orton but why would you take that personal? this happens in almost every thread.. back and forth back and forth and then poof -- top is mad...

i give up man. :salute:

You know, virtually every thread about Orton has needed intervention from a mod.
It seems some people just do not know how to discuss him without making
another poster the topic. Hostility abounds between pro- and anti-Orton
posters. It is just crazy. That is why I have a bunch on Ignore. They just could
not manage a good debate without personal attack and ridicule.

I'm not angry. But I wish I could get this message across . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
05-27-2011, 06:32 PM
I've seen/read very little personal attacks. But, to each their own.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 06:36 PM
I've seen/read very little personal attacks. But, to each their own.

C'mon now. Not even this thread escaped mod intervention. :tsk:

-----

BroncoJoe
05-27-2011, 06:38 PM
MOD intervention is due to someone or some people getting all butt hurt and reporting posts.

Back to topic:

Orton isn't the best QB available. Book it Dano.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 06:42 PM
MOD intervention is due to someone or some people getting all butt hurt and reporting posts.

Back to topic:

Orton isn't the best QB available. Book it Dano.

Seriously who do you think will be the best available quarterback?

BroncoJoe
05-27-2011, 06:44 PM
Seriously who do you think will be the best available quarterback?

Kolb will go first, followed closely by McNabb. To me, that's an indication of people who actually know and understand the position of QB. You know, people who live and work football?

Orton will be in the mix, but only as a stop-gap.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 06:47 PM
Kolb will go first, followed closely by McNabb. To me, that's an indication of people who actually know and understand the position of QB. You know, people who live and work football?

Orton will be in the mix, but only as a stop-gap.

I think Orton might have a little bit of edge on McNabb because he at that point he wont be a long term solution either.

nevcraw
05-27-2011, 06:52 PM
Kolb will go first, followed closely by McNabb. To me, that's an indication of people who actually know and understand the position of QB. You know, people who live and work football?

Orton will be in the mix, but only as a stop-gap.

I really hope someone overpays for him. they need to trade him now for max value and let tebow learn on the field. If they hold on to him for the year he will leave for FA or or be hurt or shown as we have already seen not to be the long term answer in denver..

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 06:56 PM
I really hope someone overpays for him. they need to trade him now for max value and let tebow learn on the field. If they hold on to him for the year he will leave for FA or or be hurt or shown as we have already seen not to be the long term answer in denver..

I'm not counting on that if Orton indeed does get traded but I sure would be tickled if it did.

Softskull
05-27-2011, 07:04 PM
I really hope someone overpays for him. they need to trade him now for max value and let tebow learn on the field. If they hold on to him for the year he will leave for FA or or be hurt or shown as we have already seen not to be the long term answer in denver..

I completely agree. Get what you can for Orton in draft picks. Use those draft picks in the BPA mode like this year. Don't overpay for any fat slobs in the middle.

Dreadnought
05-27-2011, 07:07 PM
I think Orton might have a little bit of edge on McNabb because he at that point he wont be a long term solution either.

I would agree there. I was never a big McNabb fan to begin with, and he sure looks like he is in beginning stage washed-up if he isn't there already. I'd go for Orton over McNabb at this point

Dreadnought
05-27-2011, 07:07 PM
I completely agree. Get what you can for Orton in draft picks. Use those draft picks in the BPA mode like this year. Don't overpay for any fat slobs in the middle.

Say, what is Sam Adams up to these days?

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 07:21 PM
I completely agree. Get what you can for Orton in draft picks. Use those draft picks in the BPA mode like this year. Don't overpay for any fat slobs in the middle.

We'll more than likely will be paying quite bit for what ever defensive tackles we pick. That is is assuming that Denver pursues best qualities defensive tackles available. We kind find cheap defensive tackles but you get what you pay for.


Say, what is Sam Adams up to these days?

Not funny Dread. Not funny at all. :tsk: :D

Softskull
05-27-2011, 07:27 PM
Say, what is Sam Adams up to these days?

Exactly! I can still see Perry waddling off the field against Jacksonville. We're going to have a growing year and I'm ok with that. No need to get into a bidding war for Mebane. He's not that great and we'll need another year or two.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-27-2011, 07:31 PM
I think Orton might have a little bit of edge on McNabb because he at that point he wont be a long term solution either.

Anyone looking at Orton will also look at McNabb and probably Hasselbeck. All are really just QBs that teams would see as a guy who can come in and run the offense while a young guy develops. Hasselbeck and McNabb are older and Orton isn't the guy who anyone will try to build a franchise around.

IMO, Arizona is looking for a long-term solution I think and so they'll be the most likely to spend big on Kolb. If they can't get Kolb, Orton might be the guy they target but I'd bet they go after McNabb.

Sparano is a lame duck HC this year in Miami so he'll probably just keep Henne because he probably won't be back. I doubt the Dolphins would give up a high pick for a QB. There are a few FAs out there. If they just want a placeholder, someone like Hasslebeck is a better fit because he's a FA.

Both Minnesota and Tennessee drafted QBs in the first round, but outside of those rookies, they have nobody. Both might be looking to add a veteran to start for a year or two.

Washington also might be in the market, but knowing Shanny he'll probably just go with Beck or Grossman. Orton isn't Shanny's type of QB so I doubt he'd even be considered.

Who knows what Pete Carroll is thinking in Seattle? He might just decide that Whitehurst is his guy. Of all the teams out there that might be likely to overspend on a QB, it's them. They overspent on Whitehurst and likely will again if they try to replace him.

I don't think SF is really in the market for a QB. I think Harbaugh is going to go with Alex Smith. I don't think they're going to go out and spend big on a QB.

That's about all the teams I can think of that might be looking for a QB.

Softskull
05-27-2011, 07:33 PM
We'll more than likely will be paying quite bit for what ever defensive tackles we pick. That is is assuming that Denver pursues best qualities defensive tackles available. We kind find cheap defensive tackles but you get what you pay for.

Generally I agree with you, but not this year. None of the FA DT are very good AND there will be enough teams bidding to push their price far beyond their real value. That's not how you'd want to rebuild a team...and we definately are rebuilding.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 07:54 PM
Late bloomer?

You are aware last year was his 4th on the field, are you not?

You are aware of the history of such QBs as Drew Brees and Jim Plunkett, are you not?

-----
Rgannon....cmorton...got better as they got older.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 07:56 PM
heres the crux

kolb is the most sought after potential franchise qb..that is obtainable...whether is actually can achieve that is unknown

orton would be sought after by teams looking for qb competition...by teams with a young qb in the works and needing a capable starter for a season or two

or as a stop gap until they can land the qb they want in the draft

nobody is looking at orton as the #1 qb for the next five yrs

So says you, right?

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 08:02 PM
Generally I agree with you, but not this year. None of the FA DT are very good AND there will be enough teams bidding to push their price far beyond their real value. That's not how you'd want to rebuild a team...and we definately are rebuilding.

Mike Patterson and Barry Cofield would be excellent pick ups in my opinion. Those are two defensive tackles suited to play in a 4-3 alignment.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 08:03 PM
The worst part of this lockout is that we are all
stuck and mired in this purgatory
of not knowing...
of re-hashing...
of second guessing.

It just makes me weary to check in here and see
the same exact arguments back and forth.

Damn these greedy owners and stupid players.

The sun is shining...
the weekend's siren song is calling.

Have a GREAT weekend Bronco fans!

Remember we are all on the same team...! :elefant:
When did they let you out of the pokey?! ;)

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 08:08 PM
I think Orton might have a little bit of edge on McNabb because he at that point he wont be a long term solution either.

I think it depends on the teams situation. If they're looking for a yr/2 starter, while a rook gets brought up, then mcnabb. Otherwise, for 3-6yrs, orton/kolb. And then it depends on system.

imo

Shannys talking up beck. Is it for real? He is stubborn enough to think he can make him a starter, I guess.

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 08:13 PM
I think it depends on the teams situation. If they're looking for a yr/2 starter, while a rook gets brought up, then mcnabb. Otherwise, for 3-6yrs, orton/kolb. And then it depends on system.

imo

Shannys talking up beck. Is it for real? He is stubborn enough to think he can make him a starter, I guess.

He was in Denver to help Elway develop as a young quarterback and he help Plummer to become a better quarterback.

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 08:15 PM
He was in Denver to help Elway develop as a young quarterback and he help Plummer to become a better quarterback.

Yeah....but that waas before he went senile. ;)

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Yeah....but that waas before he went senile. ;)

At least he's not schizophrenic like Fox's predecessor. :nod:

Dreadnought
05-27-2011, 08:24 PM
Rgannon....cmorton...got better as they got older.

Valid points, but Morton was blessed with one of the best pure arms in the game, esp. for the long ball, and Gannon always had outstanding mobility and escapability (which Morton sure as Hell didn't!)

I don't think Orton's physical skills match those guys

Juriga72
05-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Rgannon....cmorton...got better as they got older.

Yes they did....

Between them they threw 9 INT's and 1 TD in Super Bowls...

rcsodak
05-27-2011, 08:32 PM
Valid points, but Morton was blessed with one of the best pure arms in the game, esp. for the long ball, and Gannon always had outstanding mobility and escapability (which Morton sure as Hell didn't!)

I don't think Orton's physical skills match those guys
Bet he can drink both of them under the table, tho. ;)

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 08:37 PM
Yes they did....

Between them they threw 9 INT's and 1 TD in Super Bowls...

I would still take Morton over Orton (hey I made a rhynm :D) because he did lead teams to the playoffs and Super Bowls. We all know Elway's stat line from the Super Bowls wasn't very good even after that gem of preformance in Super Bowl XXXIII.

Dreadnought
05-27-2011, 08:44 PM
I would still take Morton over Orton (hey I made a rhynm :D) because he did lead teams to the playoffs and Super Bowls. We all know Elway's stat line from the Super Bowls wasn't very good even after that gem of preformance in Super Bowl XXXIII.

Loved Morton. Less mobility than Namath, and a bad pass blocking line, but I loved him

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Loved Morton. Less mobility than Namath, and a bad pass blocking line, but I loved him

In my opinion Orton has had a much better offensive line surrounding him than Morton ever did. Give him better overall talent on offense maybe Denver wins a Super Bowl. I wonder what Haven Moses and Riley Odoms would have done in a west coast offense?

topscribe
05-27-2011, 09:47 PM
In my opinion Orton has had a much better offensive line surrounding him than Morton ever did. Give him better overall talent on offense maybe Denver wins a Super Bowl. I wonder what Haven Moses and Riley Odoms would have done in a west coast offense?

The 1977 team had Paul Howard and Tom Glassic at guard, Mike Montler at
center, and Claude Minor and Andy Maurer at tackles. Granted, Maurer wasn't
any kind of Pro Bowler, but overall those were some pretty good football
players. They didn't go 12-2 and then to the SB with a worse O-line than last
year's . . .

-----

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 09:57 PM
The 1977 team had Paul Howard and Tom Glassic at guard, Mike Montler at
center, and Claude Minor and Andy Maurer at tackles. Granted, Maurer wasn't
any kind of Pro Bowler, but overall those were some pretty good football
players. They didn't go 12-2 and then to the SB with a worse O-line than last
year's . . .

-----

No they weren't that good. What we have today superior to that line. And yes they did go 12-2 with a worse offensive line. We went to Super Bowl XII because of the defense. Our offense was opportunistic because it took advantage of field position that the defense got for it.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 10:11 PM
No they weren't that good. What we have today superior to that line. And yes they did go 12-2 with a worse offensive line. We went to Super Bowl XII because of the defense. Our offense was opportunistic because of the defense.

If you pit the two offensive lines against each other with no other considerations,
today's likely has superior athletes. What you left out is that the defensive line
are better, too.

And that is true that the defense was the strength of the team. But the offense
still had to put it in the endzone. And with Haven Moses, Riley Odoms, Jack
Dolbin, Otis Armstrong, and Jon Keyworth, they had some pretty good boys on
offense. They were 11th ranked in the running game and 17th in overall
offense, so it wasn't all that bad of an offense.

In fact, while they were #1 in the rushing defense, they were #25 against the
pass. So it took an opportunistic offense, also. It was a very balanced team.

-----

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 10:23 PM
If you pit the two offensive lines against each other with no other considerations,
today's likely has superior athletes. What you left out is that the defensive line
are better, too.

And that is true that the defense was the strength of the team. But the offense
still had to put it in the endzone. And with Haven Moses, Riley Odoms, Jack
Dolbin, Otis Armstrong, and Jon Keyworth, they had some pretty good boys on
offense. They were 11th ranked in the running game and 17th in overall
offense, so it wasn't all that bad of an offense.

In fact, while they were #1 in the rushing defense, they were #25 against the
pass. So it took an opportunistic offense, also. It was a very balanced team.

-----

No they were not that balanced. The pass defense came a way with 25 interceptions. They were also ranked number one against the run. Ijhaven't seen a stat on how many fumbles they recovered but I'm going to guess it was fair amount.

They ranked 18th in pass offense. That line gave up 50 sacks that year. Also the team ypc was 3.9. Even back 1977 3.9 was not that good.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 10:40 PM
No they were not that balanced. The pass defense came a way with 25 interceptions. They were also ranked number one against the run. Ijhaven't seen a stat on how many fumbles they recovered but I'm going to guess it was fair amount.

They ranked 18th in pass offense. That line gave up 50 sacks that year. Also the team ypc was 3.9. Even back 1977 3.9 was not that good.

Well, they were ranked 17th and gave up a lot sacks, true. And the defense
recovered a ton of fumbles. Believe me, I was quite proud of the Orange Crush
defense.

But that doesn't tell the whole story. The offense was much the same way:
They got it done when it needed to get done. I just never found myself very
worried whether the Broncos were on offense or defense.

I remember how Morton just held the ball. He would hold it and hold it until
somebody got open. Sometimes it paid off, and often he paid for it. That, and
sheer immobility, were responsible for the high sack totals. But in the end,
Morton made me a fan for life. And so did Tom Glassic, Paul Howard, and
Claude Minor. There were more guts on that team than in a hot dog plant.

I viewed it as a balanced team. That's what it takes to get to a Super Bowl.

-----

TXBRONC
05-27-2011, 10:44 PM
Well, they were ranked 17th and gave up a lot sacks, true. And the defense
recovered a ton of fumbles. Believe me, I was quite proud of the Orange Crush
defense.

But that doesn't tell the whole story. The offense was much the same way:
They got it done when it needed to get done. I just never found myself very
worried whether the Broncos were on offense or defense.

I remember how Morton just held the ball. He would hold it and hold it until
somebody got open. Sometimes it paid off, and often he paid for it. That, and
sheer immobility, were responsible for the high sack totals. But in the end,
Morton made me a fan for life. And so did Tom Glassic, Paul Howard, and
Claude Minor. There were more guts on that team than in a hot dog plant.

I viewed it as a balanced team. That's what it takes to get to a Super Bowl.

-----

Top I was around and watched the 1977 season unfold from beginning to end.

topscribe
05-27-2011, 10:57 PM
Top I was around and watched the 1977 season unfold from beginning to end.

TX, I was around in September of 1960 and saw every year up to and through
1977, and every year through 2010. And 1977 had my special attention.

So what is your point? That you know and I don't? What I infer you are trying
to tell me is that the team went to the Super Bowl with a good defense and a
bad offense. My take is they went to the Super Bowl with a good defense and
a good offense.

Let's leave it at that and end a budding pissing match before it gets any further?

Okay? :focus:

-----

PAINTERDAVE
05-28-2011, 12:27 AM
When did they let you out of the pokey?! ;)

Ive been staying away...
waiting for something to break...
just git tired of all the argueing...
didn't want to be a part of it any more.

Hopefully a CBA gets done sometime before September...

Lonestar
05-28-2011, 03:01 AM
Yea, thats really the QB's fault. :lol::rolleyes:

Actually sounds like he got lucky.

Lonestar
05-28-2011, 03:01 AM
Nah, I think it has more to do with his defeatist attitude and the fact he's 31% converting 3rd downs since coming to Denver. Or maybe we just don't like him being our QB because he isn't very good? Most of us have seen GOOD QB play here in Denver, we know what it looks like, how it feels, what it's capable of...
Orton doesn't fit the definition of what most of us ignorant and foolish Denver fans feel is a GOOD QB. I don't speak for everyone, but I know I speak for at least some.
Don't forget, Tebow is a McDaniels guy as well, so your 2nd point is moot.
But then Tebow is replacing the guy that Josh hand picked to replace jay the HC. That was what pisses off most folks.
Had he drafted Tebow with jay on the team most folks would have imbraced that like they did when jay was drafted replacing what many thought was a HC* also.
And even though it was Joshes choice no one complained about (Some) of his choice


*head case.

Lonestar
05-28-2011, 03:05 AM
Of course Elway had more to offer. Why even bother to state that?
What QBs could you not say that in comparison to Elway?

But, for all the verbosity in trying to dance around it, 20th > 32nd.

Go ahead. Argue with that . . .
-----

FranklyI was lmao reading that post also.

The depths some will go to deflect their hate.

Juriga72
05-28-2011, 07:00 AM
FranklyI was lmao reading that post also.

The depths some will go to deflect their hate.

You know whqat the difference between the 32nd and 12th ranked defenses are with Kyle?


5 wins...thats all...5 wins

topscribe
05-28-2011, 08:56 AM
FranklyI was lmao reading that post also.

The depths some will go to deflect their hate.

Nah, that was in response to North.

He's cool. He doesn't hate.

Gets a little mixed up once in a while, though. :D

-----

Ravage!!!
05-28-2011, 09:50 AM
But then Tebow is replacing the guy that Josh hand picked to replace jay the HC. That was what pisses off most folks.
Had he drafted Tebow with jay on the team most folks would have imbraced that like they did when jay was drafted replacing what many thought was a HC* also.
And even though it was Joshes choice no one complained about (Some) of his choice


*head case.

This isn't even close to being accurate.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-28-2011, 10:19 AM
This isn't even close to being accurate.

Yeah, that's about a far as you can stretch things and not call them outright falsehoods. Kyle Orton wasn't "hand picked" for anything. He was a throw in on the best deal they found when shopping Cutler and was nothing more than a fill-in until McDaniels could get "his guy". Remember, we were pursuing Cassel before. Orton was nothing more than a "well, we need a QB now that we're trading our starter so get somebody in here to take snaps that's not a rookie or a guy who'd been out of football for 2 years (Simms) so give us yours".

I have little doubt that McDaniels NEVER thought of Orton as the long-term answer for anything. If he did he never would've traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow in the first round while he had a perfectly good project/backup on the roster like Tom Brandstater.

Make no mistake, Tebow and Quinn were brought in to compete with Kyle in hopes that they could take the job permanently. By TC, they decided to go with Orton because he was the safest option. We all see how that turned out.

Ravage!!!
05-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Yeah, that's about a far as you can stretch things and not call them outright falsehoods. Kyle Orton wasn't "hand picked" for anything. He was a throw in on the best deal they found when shopping Cutler and was nothing more than a fill-in until McDaniels could get "his guy". Remember, we were pursuing Cassel before. Orton was nothing more than a "well, we need a QB now that we're trading our starter so get somebody in here to take snaps that's not a rookie or a guy who'd been out of football for 2 years (Simms) so give us yours".

I have little doubt that McDaniels NEVER thought of Orton as the long-term answer for anything. If he did he never would've traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow in the first round while he had a perfectly good project/backup on the roster like Tom Brandstater.

Well, the first insinuation came when it was "mentioned" that us Orton "haters" didn't like Kyle because he was a joshy guy. When it was correctly pointed out that Tebow is a joshy guy, yet, we want him instead. Then it changed to cherry picking as to when it was because it was a joshy guy, to being a Cutler reason. That all mixed up while doing his best to throw in the word 'head case' as much as possible. (the irony being that McDoosh was the biggest 'head case' of them all).


I've seen cherry picking stats, but this is just getting ridiculous. Of course, the hypocrisy is just too obvious.

Northman
05-28-2011, 10:38 AM
Nah, that was in response to North.

He's cool. He doesn't hate.


-----

Gracias. Im so glad you can understand and discuss Orton and McD objectively unlike a couple of others on here. Even though your always wrong i love you anyway. :D

TXBRONC
05-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Gracias. Im so glad you can understand and discuss Orton and McD objectively unlike a couple of others on here. Even though your always wrong i love you anyway. :D

So you're calling me out? :viking:

Northman
05-28-2011, 11:54 AM
So you're calling me out? :viking:

Its on like Donkey Kong. :cool:

topscribe
05-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Gracias. Im so glad you can understand and discuss Orton and McD objectively unlike a couple of others on here. Even though I'm always wrong i l know you love me anyway. :D

Fixed. :D

-----

rcsodak
05-28-2011, 05:15 PM
Fixed. :D

-----

I feel dirty..... :tsk:

Lonestar
05-28-2011, 08:19 PM
Is there anyone one on here that thinks when they were shopp ing cutlet that Josh was hand picking the deal. Which included Orton.

We happened to get a starting QB (as proven the past two years) and two #1 picks as well as some other mishmash.

If you do not think There may have been other. Deals that just might have been better with lessor QBs then pass the pipe.

Josh was first looking for Quinn when CLE did not bite since he was their starter at the time.

Josh has always made it clear that there will always be open competition for any and every spot that no one gets a pass. I do not understand who did not get that memo.

When Orton did it have a stellar year he pushed him by trading for the guy he likes the best for an unused FB.

And then drafted Tebow when he had the chance. Who would not have picked up a potential FQB in the draft by using spare draft choices he accumulated earlier in the draft.

In a sense Tebow was a freebie.

Josh hand picked each of his players make mistake about that.

chazoe60
05-28-2011, 09:04 PM
Is there anyone one on here that thinks when they were shopp ing cutlet that Josh was hand picking the deal. Which included Orton.

We happened to get a starting QB (as proven the past two years) and two #1 picks as well as some other mishmash.

If you do not think There may have been other. Deals that just might have been better with lessor QBs then pass the pipe.

Josh was first looking for Quinn when CLE did not bite since he was their starter at the time.

Josh has always made it clear that there will always be open competition for any and every spot that no one gets a pass. I do not understand who did not get that memo.

When Orton did it have a stellar year he pushed him by trading for the guy he likes the best for an unused FB.

And then drafted Tebow when he had the chance. Who would not have picked up a potential FQB in the draft by using spare draft choices he accumulated earlier in the draft.

In a sense Tebow was a freebie.

Josh hand picked each of his players make mistake about that.

It shows, unfortunately. We sucked so bad because of McDumbass hand picked his players and that includes a starting QB who absolutely fails at all the crucial times of a game.


Oh and the reason that FB was unused was because McD is incompetent. And it showed when that "FB" went on to rush for 1000 yards. McD couldn't have destroyed this once proud franchise worse if it was his actual goal, and part of that destruction was trading a QB with franchise QB potential for a guy who is honestly best suited as a backup.

TXBRONC
05-28-2011, 09:09 PM
I feel dirty..... :tsk:

Then take a shower. :bath:

Lonestar
05-28-2011, 10:50 PM
It shows, unfortunately. We sucked so bad because of McDumbass hand picked his players and that includes a starting QB who absolutely fails at all the crucial times of a game.
Oh and the reason that FB was unused was because McD is incompetent. And it showed when that "FB" went on to rush for 1000 yards. McD couldn't have destroyed this once proud franchise worse if it was his actual goal, and part of that destruction was trading a QB with franchise QB potential for a guy who is honestly best suited as a backup.

Well considering Josh had little choice but to trade the " potential FQB " head case I for one think he got the best deal he could make at the time.

Many have short memories or wish to rewrite facts. But the actual reason he was traded was because "HC"* demanded a trade the day Josh was announced because he Sid nit agree with Pats selection he was butt hurt because he was not involved in the approval process.

That started the ball rolling and it snow balled From there.

As for hillis frankly I wanted him to stay if in no other use than the one Kevin faulk played in NE.

Again for those that like to rewrite history Bobby t was the guy in both mikeys and Joshes regime that gave reps to the RBs and told the HC who was ready (knowing the play book that changed weekly) for the reps In practice. No reps no game time. Pretty simple.

It has been said on more than one occasion the hillis thought he was a RB and did very little to prepare (knowing the playbook) each week and was a really lousy practice player.

Now I liked the kid and thought that he could have been the kind of RB I like big and a bruiser (anyone under 225 is bound to be injured IMHO) so I adopted him the day we drafted him.
Were mistakes made there absolutely but UT was not JUST Josh that made them.

I agreed that the trade was a good trade at the time for two reasons hillis was a little used FB in a scheme that rarely used one and Quinn was the guy that those in the know of the QBs available or thought to be available at trade time was the one most highly regarded other than cassell. And he wS only because Josh knew What he could do and already knew the playbook.

So I repeat Josh hand picked Orton because he was a starter that had a winning record on a lousy offensive team.


Btw someon mentioned the other day about jay not being a coach killer. He got his 08 OC fired,
08 HC fired, turner 09 OC Fired. was on his way to getting lovie fired until the defense and ST came to his rescue last year.

As for mikey and what's h is name they counted on cutler to pull there asses out of the fire knowing that the dc did not know his ass from china and he choked in the last three games. especially the SAN game where rivers beat him like a rented mule. I doubt that jay will ever be able to beat rivers again.

TXBRONC
05-28-2011, 11:25 PM
Well considering Josh had little choice but to trade the " potential FQB " head case I for one think he got the best deal he could make at the time.

Wrong Cutler under contract little joshy boy did not have to trade. If you need further proof follow what's happening with Carson Palmer. He's demanded a trade and guess what the Bengals have refused to do so.


Many have short memories or wish to rewrite facts. But the actual reason he was traded was because "HC"* demanded a trade the day Josh was announced because he Sid nit agree with Pats selection he was butt hurt because he was not involved in the approval process.

That started the ball rolling and it snow balled From there.

Prove it. To date you've never been proven correct.


As for hillis frankly I wanted him to stay if in no other use than the one Kevin faulk played in NE.

Again for those that like to rewrite history Bobby t was the guy in both mikeys and Joshes regime that gave reps to the RBs and told the HC who was ready (knowing the play book that changed weekly) for the reps In practice. No reps no game time. Pretty simple.

It has been said on more than one occasion the hillis thought he was a RB and did very little to prepare (knowing the playbook) each week and was a really lousy practice player.

Yeah. Little joshy boy controlled everything. That's been proven but he took his marching orders from Taylor?


Now I liked the kid and thought that he could have been the kind of RB I like big and a bruiser (anyone under 225 is bound to be injured IMHO) so I adopted him the day we drafted him.
Were mistakes made there absolutely but UT was not JUST Josh that made them.

I agreed that the trade was a good trade at the time for two reasons hillis was a little used FB in a scheme that rarely used one and Quinn was the guy that those in the know of the QBs available or thought to be available at trade time was the one most highly regarded other than cassell. And he wS only because Josh knew What he could do and already knew the playbook.

You repeat these things constantly again it doesn't make it true just because repeat it over and over again. You like Hillis but he was to dumb and to lazy. The evidence points to little joshy boy big but nothing but total ***** who lied and cheated.


So I repeat Josh hand picked Orton because he was a starter that had a winning record on a lousy offensive team.

And you some others said how bad the Bears defense had gotten as well but Orton won. He comes with a mess problems that little joshy boy never cleaned up but him losing in Denver is somehow accpetable gets explained away as we had a bad team. Where's the logic in that?

Btw someon mentioned the other day about jay not being a coach killer. He got his 08 OC fired,
08 HC fired, turner 09 OC Fired. was on his way to getting lovie fired until the defense and ST came to his rescue last year.


As for mikey and what's h is name they counted on cutler to pull there asses out of the fire knowing that the dc did not know his ass from china and he choked in the last three games. especially the SAN game where rivers beat him like a rented mule. I doubt that jay will ever be able to beat rivers again.

I did not you worked for the Chicago Bears front office. It amazing you say these thing yet in '09 just before played the Chargers in San Diego you thanked them for beating us in '08.

topscribe
05-29-2011, 12:22 AM
Then take a shower. :bath:

I didn't know that smiley existed. :laugh:

-----

GEM
05-29-2011, 01:19 AM
Further proving his talent evaluating skills well below average. Who cares anyways, Napoleon McSucks is gone. Thank heavens.


Is there anyone one on here that thinks when they were shopp ing cutlet that Josh was hand picking the deal. Which included Orton.

We happened to get a starting QB (as proven the past two years) and two #1 picks as well as some other mishmash.

If you do not think There may have been other. Deals that just might have been better with lessor QBs then pass the pipe.

Josh was first looking for Quinn when CLE did not bite since he was their starter at the time.

Josh has always made it clear that there will always be open competition for any and every spot that no one gets a pass. I do not understand who did not get that memo.

When Orton did it have a stellar year he pushed him by trading for the guy he likes the best for an unused FB.

And then drafted Tebow when he had the chance. Who would not have picked up a potential FQB in the draft by using spare draft choices he accumulated earlier in the draft.

In a sense Tebow was a freebie.

Josh hand picked each of his players make mistake about that.

topscribe
05-29-2011, 01:21 AM
Further proving his talent evaluating skills well below average. Who cares anyways, Napoleon McSucks is gone. Thank heavens.

"Napoleon McSucks" . . . :pound:


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horsepig
05-29-2011, 01:46 AM
I just cannot resist going back to the Goddamned Hillis thing. When Josh came in and started looking at tapes, did he not see the 17 yard runs? Really, who on the roster at RB looked better than Hillis? Then this guy that had that explosiveness in his running style just disappeasred.

I would love to be able to ask McDouchenozzle, what the **** did you not see?

nevcraw
05-29-2011, 02:46 AM
I just cannot resist going back to the Goddamned Hillis thing. When Josh came in and started looking at tapes, did he not see the 17 yard runs? Really, who on the roster at RB looked better than Hillis? Then this guy that had that explosiveness in his running style just disappeasred.

I would love to be able to ask McDouchenozzle, what the **** did you not see?

amen.

TXBRONC
05-29-2011, 08:16 AM
Further proving his talent evaluating skills well below average. Who cares anyways, Napoleon McSucks is gone. Thank heavens.

Witty. :beer:

Northman
05-29-2011, 08:42 AM
Further proving his talent evaluating skills well below average. Who cares anyways, Napoleon McSucks is gone. Thank heavens.

Haha Napolean McSucks. EPIC!

chazoe60
05-29-2011, 09:20 AM
I just cannot resist going back to the Goddamned Hillis thing. When Josh came in and started looking at tapes, did he not see the 17 yard runs? Really, who on the roster at RB looked better than Hillis? Then this guy that had that explosiveness in his running style just disappeasred.

I would love to be able to ask McDouchenozzle, what the **** did you not see?

Maybe Hillis really did try to give Mrs. Napoleon McSucks the old often used FB, if you know what I mean.

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 11:32 AM
so let me get this straight. He FIRST wanted Cassel, THEN he waned Quinn.. and he just drafted Tebow (as a freebe *cough* ) to "push" Orton?

Holy crap, it was worse than I thought

claymore
05-29-2011, 11:34 AM
so let me get this straight. He FIRST wanted Cassel, THEN he waned Quinn.. and he just drafted Tebow (as a freebe *cough* ) to "push" Orton?

Holy crap, it was worse than I thought

It sounds worse when you say it out loud, all at once.

MileHighCrew
05-29-2011, 11:59 AM
so let me get this straight. He FIRST wanted Cassel, THEN he waned Quinn.. and he just drafted Tebow (as a freebe *cough* ) to "push" Orton?

Holy crap, it was worse than I thought

but he had a clear direction and focus of the future of the position

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 12:03 PM
but he had a clear direction and focus of the future of the position

Yeah.. he had a direction alright... straight down :mad:

MileHighCrew
05-29-2011, 12:07 PM
Yeah.. he had a direction alright... straight down :mad:

I know it must drive him mad he missed out on his goal, the Broncos were only the 2nd worst team in football last year.

Juriga72
05-29-2011, 12:38 PM
I really think that Kyle can do a very great service to this team.....

IF Kyle does not play ONE snap this year.... We are in the Super Bowl.

Worked out last time Kyle didnt take a single snap all year

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 01:44 PM
I just cannot resist going back to the Goddamned Hillis thing. When Josh came in and started looking at tapes, did he not see the 17 yard runs? Really, who on the roster at RB looked better than Hillis? Then this guy that had that explosiveness in his running style just disappeasred.

I would love to be able to ask McDouchenozzle, what the **** did you not see?


Do you really think that Josh sat around Ans looked at folk and then ignored his position coaches totally.

While he might have been a control freak no more so than mikey was and he did nit play the kid till there was no one left either.

I do not have the time to go back (nor the desire to on an iPhone) and look up the posts about Bobby turner being in charge of players getting reps in practice and thus who was ready to plating time in games. But they are there. In our archives same goes for jay wanting a trade the day that Josh was announced because he wants to be part of the ecision making on who the next coach would be and they (pat and joe) ignored his desires.

Like I said I liked the guy and always wondered why he was not getting reps also.

But between BT who was here when hillis was and Josh who had more thAn RB s on his mind. Something was not there
It was Reported
he was lazy in practice
He was dumber than a post
Did not understand the playbook
Took him to midseason to learn it And with a change in it each week he struggled
He thought himself to be a RB and therefore never embraced the FB spot.
Therefore put no effort into the playbook.
He fumbled his early season chance away.
BT did not like any RB over 215.
Lots of reasons reported on what was IMO a bad decision nit to play him n



I also believe that had Quinn deal not happened with BTs departure he would have gotten playing time.

But we will never know.

Northman
05-29-2011, 01:47 PM
He thought himself to be a RB and therefore never embraced the FB spot.


And thus proved he was a RB in Cleveland. As too BT being in charge that is also false. Its ONE reason why his staff didnt care for him all that much and sold him down the river too the league after spygate II. Josh made all the calls and your only grasping at falsehoods trying to say otherwise.

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 02:04 PM
It was never reported he was lazy and dumb. THAT was what people on this message board made up in their "I suspect what happened" stories.

Its absolutely asinine to say that Hillis was too "dumb" to learn the playbook when he learned Shanahan's, and he learned the offense in Cleveland Juussssssst fine. Seems people just want to make stuff up to justify the horrendous trade.

As far as the first question of that post:


Do you really think that Josh sat around Ans looked at folk and then ignored his position coaches totally.
Yes. Napoleon reportedly didn't listen to anyone.

Juriga72
05-29-2011, 03:04 PM
It was never reported he was lazy and dumb. THAT was what people on this message board made up in their "I suspect what happened" stories.

Its absolutely asinine to say that Hillis was too "dumb" to learn the playbook when he learned Shanahan's, and he learned the offense in Cleveland Juussssssst fine. Seems people just want to make stuff up to justify the horrendous trade.

As far as the first question of that post:


Yes. Napoleon reportedly didn't listen to anyone.

Fnny how Nolan seemed to get dumb AFTER Mcdummy told him what defense to run in 09... Oh and guess what, Having Orton take 99.75% of ALL the snaps showed that yes he did infact ignore his position coaches.

Unless you think with Kyle's injury issues... having a back up with little if any snaps all year is a good idea... Does kinda explain why Simms was so bad at Washington

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 03:24 PM
Seems funny that so many people can't get past the hrs and think logically or belive they know more about players than the coaches do. The guys that see the players 6 days a week and evenorw than that considering the film study they do.

Absolutely ************ unbelievable.

Probably time to addled folks to iggy. At least one will have to wait till I get on a real computer. So I get the spelling correct.

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 03:35 PM
yeup.. just keep adding those to ignore that disagree with you. That should limit your choices down to nearly nothing.

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 03:40 PM
And thus proved he was a RB in Cleveland. As too BT being in charge that is also false. Its ONE reason why his staff didnt care for him all that much and sold him down the river too the league after spygate II. Josh made all the calls and your only grasping at falsehoods trying to say otherwise.

You flat do not know that for sure so you. Were you part of the staff. And has insider knowledge FIRST hand.

Y'all are ao fast to jump on a theory when it suits your pre conceived views but Qhen it does not you poo poo it as not true.

You have all day ro look the stuff up do IT and prove your self wrong. Would be hard to admit would it not.

I'm in the tail end of a total house remodel from the front street to back fence line have been since jan 15 th or so. Usually 12 hours a day.
When I get home to My house I do not have time to worry about the broncos on my apple. To busy looking for parts plants and research on the house.
The only time I'm on here is when mobile iPhone at TE work aight when I take a blow or waking up in the morning or falling asleep at night.

The mods can track my ip I'd you doubt my veracity. I'm sure they would love to check it out for you to prove me wrong

Time to get back to workie. This library time is over.

I'd you do not want to believe What I have to say iggy me.
Like Top said your worth debating while I find many that I have on iggy not worth reading.
I suspect that they take lots of cheap shots neceaisw I will not take my time to Reas their male bovine excrement.

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 03:43 PM
hy·poc·ri·sy
   /hɪˈpɒkrəsi/ [hi-pok-ruh-see]
–noun, plural -sies.

1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.

Softskull
05-29-2011, 05:00 PM
You flat do not know that for sure so you. Were you part of the staff. And has insider knowledge FIRST hand.

Y'all are ao fast to jump on a theory when it suits your pre conceived views but Qhen it does not you poo poo it as not true.

“If he treated people right, everybody’d just keep their mouths shut. But when you treat people like a piece of [expletive], this is what happens,” the source said

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/30/josh-mcdaniels-has-another-ghost/

atwater27
05-29-2011, 05:10 PM
Seems funny that so many people can't get past the hrs and think logically or belive they know more about players than the coaches do. The guys that see the players 6 days a week and evenorw than that considering the film study they do.

Absolutely ************ unbelievable.

Probably time to addled folks to iggy. At least one will have to wait till I get on a real computer. So I get the spelling correct.

Good god man... It's debate. putting people on 'ignore' isn't gonna win you any. And it will drastically reduce your chances of even having one.

topscribe
05-29-2011, 05:13 PM
Good god man... It's debate. putting people on 'ignore' isn't gonna win you any. And it will drastically reduce your chances of even having one.

Depends on who is the object of that action. If they are going to get personal
and make you the topic, then why would you even want to debate with them?
Any kind of response to such a person will only get you into trouble. That is
why I have some of them on Ignore . . .

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atwater27
05-29-2011, 05:15 PM
When Orton did it have a stellar year he pushed him by trading for the guy he likes the best for an unused FB.


http://www.sportsgamerz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/peyton-hillis-madden-cover1.jpg

atwater27
05-29-2011, 05:23 PM
After reading this thread, I am somewhat disturbed by the number of people here that don't think Kevin Kolb is any better than Orton. Kevin Kolb is a stud, is smart as hell, has a better arm than any Bronco on this roster by far... I'd be thrilled if we managed to get Kolb into the fold. We'd be set at QB; no questions asked; for a decade.

Softskull
05-29-2011, 05:45 PM
Good god man... It's debate. putting people on 'ignore' isn't gonna win you any. And it will drastically reduce your chances of even having one.

Agreed. I wont ever use ignore. However, I'm sure I've made a few member's list.

topscribe
05-29-2011, 05:47 PM
Agreed. I wont ever use ignore. However, I'm sure I've made a few member's list.

I don't know who would put you on Iggy or why.

We don't agree on a lot, but you are a quality poster, IMO . . .

-----

atwater27
05-29-2011, 05:51 PM
Agreed. I wont ever use ignore. However, I'm sure I've made a few member's list.

I haven't used it either. It's too fun to stir it up.

TXBRONC
05-29-2011, 05:58 PM
You flat do not know that for sure so you. Were you part of the staff. And has insider knowledge FIRST hand.

Y'all are ao fast to jump on a theory when it suits your pre conceived views but Qhen it does not you poo poo it as not true.

You have all day ro look the stuff up do IT and prove your self wrong. Would be hard to admit would it not.

I'm in the tail end of a total house remodel from the front street to back fence line have been since jan 15 th or so. Usually 12 hours a day.
When I get home to My house I do not have time to worry about the broncos on my apple. To busy looking for parts plants and research on the house.
The only time I'm on here is when mobile iPhone at TE work aight when I take a blow or waking up in the morning or falling asleep at night.

The mods can track my ip I'd you doubt my veracity. I'm sure they would love to check it out for you to prove me wrong

Time to get back to workie. This library time is over.

I'd you do not want to believe What I have to say iggy me.
Like Top said your worth debating while I find many that I have on iggy not worth reading.
I suspect that they take lots of cheap shots neceaisw I will not take my time to Reas their male bovine excrement.

How quick have you been to tell everyone how Cutler has gotten all those coaches fired yet you haven't been apart of either one of those staffs.

TXBRONC
05-29-2011, 06:05 PM
“If he treated people right, everybody’d just keep their mouths shut. But when you treat people like a piece of [expletive], this is what happens,” the source said

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/30/josh-mcdaniels-has-another-ghost/

Well when you take your entire coaching staff before owner just to embarrass them after a humiliating loss that does nothing to foster loyalty. He was the head coach and needed to man up and actually take responsibility for what happened.

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 06:06 PM
I haven't used it either. It's too fun to stir it up.

Yeh,....we know. ;)

BroncoStud
05-29-2011, 08:24 PM
Good god man... It's debate. putting people on 'ignore' isn't gonna win you any. And it will drastically reduce your chances of even having one.

Well said, ignore is weak, and for the weak.

BroncoStud
05-29-2011, 08:28 PM
After reading this thread, I am somewhat disturbed by the number of people here that don't think Kevin Kolb is any better than Orton. Kevin Kolb is a stud, is smart as hell, has a better arm than any Bronco on this roster by far... I'd be thrilled if we managed to get Kolb into the fold. We'd be set at QB; no questions asked; for a decade.

Kolb has started like 4 games... I saw him play when Houston beat Oklahoma State, the dude is a STUD. He has a good arm, is mobile, and can read defenses.

He has 100 TIMES the potential Orton does. You won't get many HERE to acknowledge that because HOMERISM runs wild, but Kolb his hands down the better prospect and Orton is a future NFL backup, there's only so many times you can get benched before you resign yourself to that notion.

I would take Kolb in a heartbeat over Orton. I have to say though, I do like the intangibles that Tebow brings. The dude would rather die on the field than give less than 100% effort. That just inspires people. On top of that he's a great guy. I hope Tebow succeeds and people who work as hard as he does usually do.

Orton's just a quitter. Sorry, he quit far too many times on the Broncos in the past 2 years. The sooner his taint is removed from this roster the better off this organization will be.

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 08:39 PM
Well said, ignore is weak, and for the weak.

Nice labeling, bs. :coffee:

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 08:41 PM
Kolb has started like 4 games... I saw him play when Houston beat Oklahoma State, the dude is a STUD. He has a good arm, is mobile, and can read defenses.

He has 100 TIMES the potential Orton does. You won't get many HERE to acknowledge that because HOMERISM runs wild, but Kolb his hands down the better prospect and Orton is a future NFL backup, there's only so many times you can get benched before you resign yourself to that notion.

I would take Kolb in a heartbeat over Orton. I have to say though, I do like the intangibles that Tebow brings. The dude would rather die on the field than give less than 100% effort. That just inspires people. On top of that he's a great guy. I hope Tebow succeeds and people who work as hard as he does usually do.

Orton's just a quitter. Sorry, he quit far too many times on the Broncos in the past 2 years. The sooner his taint is removed from this roster the better off this organization will be.

:rolleyes: no bias there.......

BroncoStud
05-29-2011, 08:45 PM
Nice labeling, bs. :coffee:

Sorry RC, I don't care what is said to me, I won't put someone on ignore, sensorship is something the NAZI's or COMMIES do, not free thinkers.

BroncoStud
05-29-2011, 08:45 PM
:rolleyes: no bias there.......

How am I inaccurate RC? :eek:

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 12:00 AM
After reading this thread, I am somewhat disturbed by the number of people here that don't think Kevin Kolb is any better than Orton. Kevin Kolb is a stud, is smart as hell, has a better arm than any Bronco on this roster by far... I'd be thrilled if we managed to get Kolb into the fold. We'd be set at QB; no questions asked; for a decade.

Right, Kevin Colbs a stud? Your acting like Kolb is a franchise Qb whens hes a 2nd rounder with potential.

He completely unproven. How can you say hes better than a winning Qb? Nobody knows yet if hes better than Orton, and teams will take that into account.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 07:33 AM
Right, Kevin Colbs a stud? Your acting like Kolb is a franchise Qb whens hes a 2nd rounder with potential.

He completely unproven. How can you say hes better than a winning Qb? Nobody knows yet if hes better than Orton, and teams will take that into account.

I'm sure they will take that into account but at the end of the day I think teams are going to come to the conclusion Kolb has more upside.

Lonestar
05-30-2011, 09:24 AM
“If he treated people right, everybody’d just keep their mouths shut. But when you treat people like a piece of [expletive], this is what happens,” the source said

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/30/josh-mcdaniels-has-another-ghost/

Seriously here is the height of assassination having some one on the staff that can't handle the heat of skin their job gets called on it and then back stabs the Guy that hired him.

I'd have done the same thing that Josh did iirc bring the coaches in and sad them the riot act.

Anyone that is not strong enough to that should not be in coaching, they were weak willed and will never get the most of of their players IMO.

Note that it is from a "source" just another weak person that has no balls. If the moron did nothavw the guts o be named he was probably the sissy that Josh was trying to get to man up.

Sorry the NFL is not for the weak.

Sorry back stabbers have zero credibility as far as I'm concerned.

I can see where some of y'all will embrace this piece because it enhanced your hate for the guy.

Sorry for you.

Lonestar
05-30-2011, 09:34 AM
Agreed. I wont ever use ignore. However, I'm sure I've made a few member's list.

I have a bunch o folks on iggy.
Contrary to Atwater opine it is not about not wanting to debate them it is IMHO nit wanting to waste band width with their drivel.

They in some cases so hateful towards players, other posters or coaches their posts are not worth reading.
A waste of my time I only wish that others would not quote them as that is a waste of my time and GBs( iPhone)
I stated in another thread that I have been busy and have virtually noontime like I used to have. So when I post it is when taking a break or late night (trying to get to sleep) or early morning (trying to wake up).



I know that I'm on a few lists but frankly I could care less.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 10:05 AM
How am I inaccurate RC? :eek:
Show where he quit. Show where people actually in the KNOW, with no dog in the fight, say he quit.
Otherwise, you have bias. Nothing wrong with that.

atwater27
05-30-2011, 10:19 AM
They in some cases so hateful towards players, other posters or coaches their posts are not worth reading.


wow....

http://www.douglasrosin.com/archivesB/upload/8201/878/gold_vanity_mirror_front.jpg

atwater27
05-30-2011, 10:25 AM
Right, Kevin Colbs a stud? Your acting like Kolb is a franchise Qb whens hes a 2nd rounder with potential.

He completely unproven. How can you say hes better than a winning Qb? Nobody knows yet if hes better than Orton, and teams will take that into account.

Anybody watching football last season saw the guy developing quickly, saw his 'light going on' in his head, and saw undeniable upwards momentum. Unfortunately for him, injuries and Michael Vick going supernova in his place wiped out his chances to progress and take over the team for good.

Lonestar
05-30-2011, 10:46 AM
Kolb has started like 4 games... I saw him play when Houston beat Oklahoma State, the dude is a STUD. He has 100 TIMES the potential Orton does. Orion is a future NFL backup
I would take Kolb in a heartbeat over Orton.
Orton's just a quitter. Sorry, he quit far too many times on the Broncos in the past 2 years. The sooner his taint is removed from this roster the better off this organization will be.

Not a single thing that you have stated here is factual merely your opine and a biased one at that. IMHO

How about we let the professionals decide who goes and who stays and the reasoning they have as gospel.

Since mikey is no longer here I trust the front office to do the right thing for the TEAM queried that be resigning orton or trading him.

IMHO the real bummer would be is if they trade Tebow.

Lonestar
05-30-2011, 10:51 AM
Sorry RC, I don't care what is said to me, I won't put someone on ignore, sensorship is something the NAZI's or COMMIES do, not free thinkers.

Seriously censorship, you need to get out more and spend less time in front of your CRT.

Not wanting to waste your time reading the same post ad neuasum time after time after time. Is a wise thing to do. After all there are only so many minutes in ones life why waste them.

Plus in my case only have 2 gigs per month free on my iPhone. Not even going to waste them on drivel.

atwater27
05-30-2011, 10:51 AM
Since joshie is no longer here I trust the front office to do the right thing for the TEAM queried that be resigning orton or trading him.


edited for accuracy

atwater27
05-30-2011, 10:52 AM
Plus in my case only have 2 gigs per month free on my iPhone. Not even going to waste them on drivel.

If that's the case you really should consider NOT TYPING.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 11:02 AM
If that's the case you really should consider NOT TYPING.unnecessary and an attack, 27

topscribe
05-30-2011, 11:04 AM
I have a bunch o folks on iggy.
Contrary to Atwater opine it is not about not wanting to debate them it is IMHO nit wanting to waste band width with their drivel.

They in some cases so hateful towards players, other posters or coaches their posts are not worth reading.
A waste of my time I only wish that others would not quote them as that is a waste of my time and GBs( iPhone)
I stated in another thread that I have been busy and have virtually noontime like I used to have. So when I post it is when taking a break or late night (trying to get to sleep) or early morning (trying to wake up).



I know that I'm on a few lists but frankly I could care less.


Seriously censorship, you need to get out more and spend less time in front of your CRT.

Not wanting to waste your time reading the same post ad neuasum time after time after time. Is a wise thing to do. After all there are only so many minutes in ones life why waste them.

Plus in my case only have 2 gigs per month free on my iPhone. Not even going to waste them on drivel.

Using Ignore certainly is wise on certain occasions. If it is against the COC to
retaliate against flaming and baiting, then why subject oneself to being the
object of it? I have people on Ignore who just could not help themselves: they
just had to flame and bait and make me the topic. So they don't need to talk
to me at all.

When I was a mod, I encouraged the use of Iggy. *shrugs*

That should be enough of this topic. Now, let's get back to the OP's topic. :focus:

-----

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 12:03 PM
Not a single thing that you have stated here is factual merely your opine and a biased one at that. IMHO

How about we let the professionals decide who goes and who stays and the reasoning they have as gospel.

Since mikey is no longer here I trust the front office to do the right thing for the TEAM queried that be resigning orton or trading him.

IMHO the real bummer would be is if they trade Tebow.

The same "professionals" you trust draft guys like Ryan Leaf, Maurice Clarrett, and miss on about 80-90% of the draft picks they make...

Nah, I'll let what I see on the field dictate my opinions. :lol:

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 12:05 PM
Seriously censorship, you need to get out more and spend less time in front of your CRT.

Not wanting to waste your time reading the same post ad neuasum time after time after time. Is a wise thing to do. After all there are only so many minutes in ones life why waste them.

Plus in my case only have 2 gigs per month free on my iPhone. Not even going to waste them on drivel.

What do you mean 2 gigs per month on your iphone? Dude get the unlimited plan, it isn't THAT much more... It's worth it.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 12:14 PM
The same "professionals" you trust draft guys like Ryan Leaf, Maurice Clarrett, and miss on about 80-90% of the draft picks they make...

Nah, I'll let what I see on the field dictate my opinions. :lol:
80-90%? Really? And let me guess. Fans could do better?

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 07:21 PM
80-90%? Really? And let me guess. Fans could do better?

Some, yes, most no. But I assure you there are thousands of fans with more intelligence and deductive skills than many front office personnel. I am anything but impressed with guys like Brian Xanders. There are fans who design rocket schematics, run successful businesses, and make millions investing in global markets.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 08:58 PM
Some, yes, most no. But I assure you there are thousands of fans with more intelligence and deductive skills than many front office personnel. I am anything but impressed with guys like Brian Xanders. There are fans who design rocket schematics, run successful businesses, and make millions investing in global markets.

And show me how that correlates to knowing one iota about the nfl and everything to go with it.

You crack me up, bs.

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 09:03 PM
Some, yes, most no. But I assure you there are thousands of fans with more intelligence and deductive skills than many front office personnel. I am anything but impressed with guys like Brian Xanders. There are fans who design rocket schematics, run successful businesses, and make millions investing in global markets.

This made me laugh.

Not sure why.

atwater27
05-30-2011, 09:05 PM
Some, yes, most no. But I assure you there are thousands of fans with more intelligence and deductive skills than many front office personnel. I am anything but impressed with guys like Brian Xanders. There are fans who design rocket schematics, run successful businesses, and make millions investing in global markets.

Alot of front office personell are simply businessmen, numbers crunchers, gamblers. They have no intuition about the game, the players, no scouting ability. It takes guys with a good feel for the players and ability to know skills when they see them in the raw, in addition to basic business and interpersonal skills, to be REAL difference makers. Xanders ain't one of them.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 09:09 PM
Alot of front office personell are simply businessmen, numbers crunchers, gamblers. They have no intuition about the game, the players, no scouting ability. It takes guys with a good feel for the players and ability to know skills when they see them in the raw, in addition to basic business and interpersonal skills, to be REAL difference makers. Xanders ain't one of them.

I'm not going say Xanders has no idea what he's doing. At the end of the draft press conference he's seemed to be pretty knowledgeable.