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NorCalBronco7
05-25-2011, 01:35 PM
Much has been made about Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow’s chances of succeeding—or falling flat on his face—at the NFL level. In an article earlier this month, I argued that Denver’s management unveiled a specific plan for championship rebuilding in April’s draft, a plan that includes QB nightmares Von Miller and Champ Bailey but ultimately starts with an elite signal caller under center. Whether your money is on Tebow failing or prevailing in an effort to be that guy, there is one undeniable fact about the second-year quarterback: the kid is a winner.

Now, winning is by no means a selling point unique to Tebow. In fact, Broncos fans might recall another potential face of the franchise to grace Dove Valley in recent years, carrying with him a playbook and a proverbial sign hung around his neck reading, “Has won at every level.” The mere thought of him makes you cringe, doesn’t it?

Actually, trick question. The face of the franchise/ supposed winner depiction could apply to either Tebow’s competition for starting quarterback or to the man who drafted Tebow. Unfortunately for Broncos fans, the results have been debatable with Kyle Orton and disastrous with Josh McDaniels, two figures with serious questions coming in yet heralded by some analysts nonetheless for their tendency to “just win.”






http://predominantlyorange.com/2011/05/25/myth-of-the-%e2%80%9cwinner%e2%80%9d-%e2%80%93-will-tebow%e2%80%99s-college-success-translate-into-victories-for-the-broncos/2/


I find it interesting the article was chopped up only to read about Tebow......


Guess the Broncos only have one Qb on the roster.....

Ravage!!!
05-25-2011, 01:59 PM
Agree with this guy's opinion. Tebow's past doesn't mean a damn thing in the NFL. He has a lot to over-come, and the way he won in College will most likely not work in the NFL.

He also touched on something I've said for years. Many times we see a back-up come in, whether that be for a game or two or for many games at the end of a year... and perform FANTASTICALLY. Its automatically assumed taht the guy is ready to become a full-time starter, and moves on with a big contract....only to fall on his face.

Its MUCH MUCH easier to come off the bench as the back-up (even ifyou are the starter for the injured QB) than it is to be "the man" and come in and play. You are given more responsibility, and expected....EXPECTED.. to win. No matter what.

As the back-up, you ALWAYS have that "well, he's the back-up" defense to always fall on. Not when you are the starter.

Tebow has a lot to prove in the NFL, thats for certain. I'm very skeptical, but because its the Broncos, I'm hopeful.

gobroncsnv
05-25-2011, 02:33 PM
always kind of curious as to when you see someone's past body of work against the available competition, the success he had, and how that all gets discarded... Given that, why would we ever look at anybody's college career and base a draft ranking on it? I know, 'past performance does not guarantee future results" but seems like some of this stuff would have to mean something, or all of the "science" is pretty much meaningless. Just toss it all and throw darts at a chart to pick the next guy.
Maybe it's just me, but I think Tebow is going to do well, given his track record, his heart for the game, along with his work ethic, and physical abilities. Seems like some are tossing all of that before he gets any kind of a shot at the game.

HammeredOut
05-25-2011, 02:37 PM
everybody said the same thing about Chris Leak, except he didn't have a huge college fan base. Leak had a better arm and throwing motion then Tebow. Run Option QB's never fared well in this league.

robert ethan
05-25-2011, 03:07 PM
Well, to this point as a pro Tebow's winning percentage is 33%.

topscribe
05-25-2011, 03:16 PM
That's right, Robert. And since so many cannot be bothered with such things as
why a team wins or loses -- just wants to place it on the QB -- then Orton's
10-5 record as a rookie trumps Tebow's 1-2 record as a rookie, doesn't it?

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rcsodak
05-25-2011, 03:59 PM
That's right, Robert. And since so many cannot be bothered with such things as
why a team wins or loses -- just wants to place it on the QB -- then Orton's
10-5 record as a rookie trumps Tebow's 1-2 record as a rookie, doesn't it?

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Wonder if anbody will counter that with 'but orton had a defense/running game/hester!'. Lol

topscribe
05-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Wonder if anbody will counter that with 'but orton had a defense/running game/hester!'. Lol

Exactly. That is exactly what I've been harping on. When Orton wins, it's the
team that did it for him. When he loses, it's all Orton. That has often been the
attitude around here.

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GEM
05-25-2011, 04:19 PM
No the counter is he's played 3 NFL games. :laugh:

rcsodak
05-25-2011, 04:19 PM
Exactly. That is exactly what I've been harping on. When Orton wins, it's the
team that did it for him. When he loses, it's all Orton. That has often been the
attitude around here.

-----
And yet we're labeled the hypocritical posters with irony laden with made up opines. :laugh:

GEM
05-25-2011, 04:22 PM
And yet we're the hypocritical posters with irony laden made up opines. :laugh:

Every poster is a hypocrite because they decide that their opinion is right. Opinions aren't right or wrong. Orton is a decent player, doesn't mean I want him as QB of my team. He bores the living crap out of me. That's not a fact, if it were, Top would feel the same. Top thinks Orton is a good qb. That's his opinion, one that I don't have to agree on.

Neither side is right or wrong, it's how they feel.

It doesn't matter the topic, message boards will always be divided on the us vs. them mentality. Happened with Jake vs. Jay, Shanahan vs. McDaniels, Jay vs. Kyle, and now Kyle vs. Tim.

This isn't new.

jhns
05-25-2011, 04:23 PM
That's right, Robert. And since so many cannot be bothered with such things as
why a team wins or loses -- just wants to place it on the QB -- then Orton's
10-5 record as a rookie trumps Tebow's 1-2 record as a rookie, doesn't it?

-----

Lets hate Tebow because we want to worship Kyle Orton!

Tebow played three games and had better stats than Orton through 15 games. That is just sad...

rcsodak
05-25-2011, 04:24 PM
No the counter is he's played 3 NFL games. :laugh:
Evidently, that made him eligible for the HOF. Lol

GEM
05-25-2011, 04:30 PM
Evidently, that made him eligible for the HOF. Lol

Says who? Who here has said that (Other than Gator fans)? I am excited about the prospect of Tebow, because of his college career, because he seems to be a downright phenomenal young man and because he can be the face of a franchise to be proud of. I am excited to see a player who makes the Broncos exciting again. Does that equal HOF? Hell no it doesn't, the guy could be a total bust. I want to see it for myself before saying he will HOF or Bust.

Why is it that if you like Orton, you have to hate Tebow? And why is it that if you like Tebow, you have to hate Orton.

Wake up call.....go back to my posts before Tim even got here....I've been calling Kyle the fainting goat since he got here. ;) And that's not because Tim got here, that's because Orton is boring. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

Ravage!!!
05-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Wake up call.....go back to my posts before Tim even got here....I've been calling Kyle the fainting goat since he got here. ;)

OMG.. I forgot about the fainting goats!!

we9_CdNPuJg

topscribe
05-25-2011, 04:33 PM
Says who? Who here has said that (Other than Gator fans)? I am excited about the prospect of Tebow, because of his college career, because he seems to be a downright phenomenal young man and because he can be the face of a franchise to be proud of. I am excited to see a player who makes the Broncos exciting again. Does that equal HOF? Hell no it doesn't, the guy could be a total bust. I want to see it for myself before saying he will HOF or Bust.

Why is it that if you like Orton, you have to hate Tebow? And why is it that if you like Tebow, you have to hate Tebow.

Wake up call.....go back to my posts before Tim even got here....I've been calling Kyle the fainting goat since he got here. ;) And that's not because Tim got here, that's because Orton is boring. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

I've decided I'm going to have an equal opportunity approach.

I'm going to hate everybody the same . . . :D

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D1g1tal j1m
05-25-2011, 04:37 PM
Kyle has started 62 of 62 games and is 32-30 in 6 nfl seasons. He is an serviceable NFL starting QB who has probably reached the peak of his athletic ability.

Tebow has started 3 of 9 games and is 1-2 in his rookie season. We don't yet know what kind of QB he will be and most Broncomaniacs are excited about the possibilities. Tebow is an athletic freak who needs practices and reps to grow into a Starter in the NFL.

GEM
05-25-2011, 04:45 PM
OMG.. I forgot about the fainting goats!!

we9_CdNPuJg

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123465

Posted that 3/2010...before Tim was even drafted.

gobroncsnv
05-25-2011, 04:55 PM
I've decided I'm going to have an equal opportunity approach.

I'm going to hate everybody the same . . . :D

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What's the deal here? You think you're allowed to take on some kind of Swiss lack of commitment?

broncofaninfla
05-25-2011, 05:02 PM
No myth about this Orton had a chance to win games, convert downs and come through in the 4th quarter and too often he didn't. When a play breaks down so does Orton. Tebow on the other hand has the intangibles to make things happen when a play breaks down and the fire to rally a team. I saw all I needed to see of both last year to know who I want to see under center. It's a open compitition this year and I like Tebow's chances of proving he is our best option under center this season.

vandammage13
05-25-2011, 05:07 PM
everybody said the same thing about Chris Leak, except he didn't have a huge college fan base. Leak had a better arm and throwing motion then Tebow. Run Option QB's never fared well in this league.

Hmmm...I would definitely agree that Leak had a better throwing motion than Tebow, but better arm?...not by a long shot. Tebow has a very strong arm, just an awkward motion that may or may not impact the amount of success he'll be able to have on this level. The throwing motion didn't seem to hurt him last year, but its far too small of a sample to make a conclusion.

And I'm not sure if you were insinuating that Leak was a run-option QB (I couldn't really tell if you were referring to Leak, Tebow, or both), but Leak definitely was not a run-option guy, thus the reason Tebow had so much playing time his freshman year....I will agree that a run-option QB just won't cut it in the NFL, but just because that's what a particular QB ran in college doesn't necessarily mean he's incapable of playing a different style.

topscribe
05-25-2011, 05:12 PM
What's the deal here? You think you're allowed to take on some kind of Swiss lack of commitment?

So when I attend games, that would be another form of a Swiss watch?

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rcsodak
05-25-2011, 05:21 PM
Lets hate Tebow because we want to worship Kyle Orton!

Tebow played three games and had better stats than Orton through 15 games. That is just sad...
You mustve missed the headlines.
STATS DON'T COUNT.....ONLY WINS

1-2w/l ain't gonna cut it.

And now, Moreno's receiving yards/tds dont count, so TTs running yards/tds don't either.

Not my rules. Sorry. :lol:

rcsodak
05-25-2011, 05:30 PM
Says who? Who here has said that (Other than Gator fans)? I am excited about the prospect of Tebow, because of his college career, because he seems to be a downright phenomenal young man and because he can be the face of a franchise to be proud of. I am excited to see a player who makes the Broncos exciting again. Does that equal HOF? Hell no it doesn't, the guy could be a total bust. I want to see it for myself before saying he will HOF or Bust.

Why is it that if you like Orton, you have to hate Tebow? And why is it that if you like Tebow, you have to hate Orton.

Wake up call.....go back to my posts before Tim even got here....I've been calling Kyle the fainting goat since he got here. ;) And that's not because Tim got here, that's because Orton is boring. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

Wasn't aimed at you,G. Sorry...just used your post to bring to light the maniacal claims of some, after his losing 2/3.

I don't fit your example.
I'm not anti TT while backing orton.

Sadly, for the most part, that can't be said for the other side.

rcsodak
05-25-2011, 05:35 PM
so when i attend games, that would be another form of a swiss watch?

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gong!

GEM
05-25-2011, 05:38 PM
Wasn't aimed at you,G. Sorry...just used your post to bring to light the maniacal claims of some, after his losing 2/3.

I don't fit your example.
I'm not anti TT while backing orton.

Sadly, for the most part, that can't be said for the other side.

Anytime anything positive is said about Tebow, the Orton crusaders come to the rescue. Anytime anything positive is said about Orton, the Teboners come to the rescue. It works both ways, very often in a lot of different threads.

It can be said for both sides.

topscribe
05-25-2011, 05:51 PM
You mustve missed the headlines.
STATS DON'T COUNT.....ONLY WINS

1-2w/l ain't gonna cut it.

And now, Moreno's receiving yards/tds dont count, so TTs running yards/tds don't either.

Not my rules. Sorry. :lol:

Still, if we were going to compare, I think it only right to compare both when
healthy. That would eliminate Kyle's last two games, of course. So, going
there:

(Per game where applicable):

Tebow averaged 218 yds, 50,0% comp, 1.67 TDs, , 1.00 INT, 82.1 QBR.
Kyle averaged 306 yds, 62% comp, 1.82 TDs, 0.55 INT, 96.0 QBR.

Oops . . . I guess we don't want to go there, to we? :laugh:

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robert ethan
05-25-2011, 06:02 PM
How do you define "winners" though? Is it simply winning more games than you lose? Making the playoffs on a regular basis? Winning a conference championship? Or going all the way to the Lombardi Trophy? Dan Marino, Brett Favre, and Peyton Manning won a total of 2 Lombardis between them over about 55 years combined. But they are arguably the three best quarterbacks to play the game. The Pats team from a few years back that went through the regular season undefeated and all the way to the Super Bowl still isn't really regarded as a team of "winners". It seems to come down to the 50 odd players on the Super Bowl winning team of a given year all being regarded as "winners", regardless of their degree of contribution, while the other 2,000 or so players in the league are not. It's a pretty vague concept.

Ravage!!!
05-25-2011, 06:20 PM
How do you define "winners" though? Is it simply winning more games than you lose? Making the playoffs on a regular basis? Winning a conference championship? Or going all the way to the Lombardi Trophy?

Yes to all the above. Winning more games than you lose in regular season, is certainly a start. Winning in the playoffs is definitely in the right direction. Getting to the Super Bowl certainly proves that you can win the big games. Beating rivals, winning the division, winning the conference, are forms of winning. But you actually have to WIN games, to be considered a winner. Thats the secret.



Dan Marino, Brett Favre, and Peyton Manning won a total of 2 Lombardis between them over about 55 years combined. But they are arguably the three best quarterbacks to play the game.

yes.. and all three are winners. They wouldn't be considered three OF the best QBs to play the game if they weren't winners.

Some will try to tell you that losing at the Super Bowl makes you a loser, and thats ridiculous. Marino is NOT a loser. Jim Kelly, absolutely DOMINATED this conference... that's not a loser.



The Pats team from a few years back that went through the regular season undefeated and all the way to the Super Bowl still isn't really regarded as a team of "winners".
who doesn't consider them winners? ITs true that some will see the season as purely black and white, and only the Super Bowl Champions are the winners in the league. But most will have to agree that there are many victories throughout the season. You dont have to hold the trophy over your head to be considered a "winner." Thats the 'goal' of every team, but holding that Lombardi just means you were league Champions.

Agent of Orange
05-25-2011, 06:42 PM
http://predominantlyorange.com/2011/05/25/myth-of-the-%e2%80%9cwinner%e2%80%9d-%e2%80%93-will-tebow%e2%80%99s-college-success-translate-into-victories-for-the-broncos/2/

I think the biggest myth that was exposed over the past two years is the notion that Orton wins games. People would mention his records when he was with the Bears, much of which he was carried by a good defense and running game.

Thats been debunked.

broncohead
05-25-2011, 06:46 PM
Still, if we were going to compare, I think it only right to compare both when
healthy. That would eliminate Kyle's last two games, of course. So, going
there:

(Per game where applicable):

Tebow averaged 218 yds, 50,0% comp, 1.67 TDs, , 1.00 INT, 82.1 QBR.
Kyle averaged 306 yds, 62% comp, 1.82 TDs, 0.55 INT, 96.0 QBR.

Oops . . . I guess we don't want to go there, to we? :laugh:

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So we can cherry pick stats?

topscribe
05-25-2011, 06:47 PM
So we can cherry pick stats?

Why not? That is what I was making fun of, wasn't it?

Maybe that went over some heads . . . :whoknows:

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TXBRONC
05-25-2011, 06:47 PM
So we can cherry pick stats?

:nod:

jhns
05-25-2011, 06:49 PM
You mustve missed the headlines.
STATS DON'T COUNT.....ONLY WINS

1-2w/l ain't gonna cut it.

And now, Moreno's receiving yards/tds dont count, so TTs running yards/tds don't either.

Not my rules. Sorry. :lol:

Where does it say stats don't count? It doesn't even say a "winner" is anything special.

"Now, winning is by no means a selling point unique to Tebow. In fact, Broncos fans might recall another potential face of the franchise to grace Dove Valley in recent years, carrying with him a playbook and a proverbial sign hung around his neck reading, “Has won at every level.” The mere thought of him makes you cringe, doesn’t it?

Actually, trick question. The face of the franchise/ supposed winner depiction could apply to either Tebow’s competition for starting quarterback or to the man who drafted Tebow. Unfortunately for Broncos fans, the results have been debatable with Kyle Orton and disastrous with Josh McDaniels, two figures with serious questions coming in yet heralded by some analysts nonetheless for their tendency to “just win.”"

That even calls Orton a winner....

jhns
05-25-2011, 06:56 PM
Still, if we were going to compare, I think it only right to compare both when
healthy. That would eliminate Kyle's last two games, of course. So, going
there:

(Per game where applicable):

Tebow averaged 218 yds, 50,0% comp, 1.67 TDs, , 1.00 INT, 82.1 QBR.
Kyle averaged 306 yds, 62% comp, 1.82 TDs, 0.55 INT, 96.0 QBR.

Oops . . . I guess we don't want to go there, to we? :laugh:

-----

lol

Tebow averaged 283 yds, 2.3 TDs.....

The team was a top 10 scoring team with Tebow in. They were around 20 with Orton. The Tebow led Broncos never once scored below the Orton led Broncos average points.

Oops.

Bullgator
05-25-2011, 06:57 PM
Boy I cant wait till RC and Top move on to be Cardinal or Viking fans.

TXBRONC
05-25-2011, 07:11 PM
Boy I cant wait till RC and Top move on to be Cardinal or Viking fans.

As Tweety bird says: "You don't know me very well." They have been fans of the Broncos for decades and you think they're just going to drag up? It wont happen Gator. I guarantee it.

NorCalBronco7
05-25-2011, 07:25 PM
I think the biggest myth that was exposed over the past two years is the notion that Orton wins games. People would mention his records when he was with the Bears, much of which he was carried by a good defense and running game.

Thats been debunked.

How is this "myth" exposed when Ortons a marginal carreer winner?







lol

Tebow averaged 283 yds, 2.3 TDs.....

The team was a top 10 scoring team with Tebow in. They were around 20 with Orton. The Tebow led Broncos never once scored below the Orton led Broncos average points.

Oops.

Big deal its only 3 games.



Boy I cant wait till RC and Top move on to be Cardinal or Viking fans.

Tebow/Gator/SortaBroncos fan lashing out.........:viking:

TXBRONC
05-25-2011, 07:34 PM
Tebow/Gator/SortaBroncos fan lashing out.........:viking:

:viking: It's interested that you used the viking smilely considering that Bullgator mentioned RC and Top moving onto the Vikings or the Cardinals. :viking:

topscribe
05-25-2011, 07:41 PM
:viking: It's interested that you used the viking smilely considering that Bullgator mentioned RC and Top moving onto the Vikings or the Cardinals. :viking:

Is that what Bullgator said? I guess he never heard that I saw the first game
the Broncos ever played on 9 September 1960.

I wonder where he was on that day?

I can't read his posts (except in quotes if I choose to, but if I were to do that,
then why have him on Ignore?), but if he would kindly reveal when he first
became a Broncos fan (if he indeed is one), I'll bet, you, TX, would be glad to
relay it . . . :coffee:

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TXBRONC
05-25-2011, 07:43 PM
Is that what Bullgator said? I guess he never heard that I saw the first game
the Broncos ever played on 9 September 1960.

I wonder where he was on that day?

I can't read his posts (except in quotes if I choose to, but if I were to do that,
then why have him on Ignore?), but if he would kindly reveal when he first
became a Broncos fan, I'll bet, you, TX, would be glad to relay it . . . :coffee:

-----

I almost put that in my response to him that you saw the first game the Broncos ever played.

topscribe
05-25-2011, 07:46 PM
I almost put that in my response to him that you saw the first game the Broncos ever played.

I don't mind bragging about it. I'm still enjoying that game. Denver 13, Boston
Patriots 10, in a bloodbath. I was a Green Bay fan when the game started and
hopelessly a Denver Broncos fan by the time it ended.

Despite those horrid socks! :laugh:

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FanInAZ
05-25-2011, 07:59 PM
Is that what Bullgator said? I guess he never heard that I saw the first game
the Broncos ever played on 9 September 1960.

I wonder where he was on that day?

I can't read his posts (except in quotes if I choose to, but if I were to do that,
then why have him on Ignore?), but if he would kindly reveal when he first
became a Broncos fan (if he indeed is one), I'll bet, you, TX, would be glad to
relay it . . . :coffee:

-----

I tried to see if I could find his quote, but he didn't do a personal intro thread so I'd have to scan through every post he made his first week on this site. Therefore, you'll just have to trust my autistic photographic memory when I say he became a Broncos' fan the day we drafted Tebow.

By the way, I was still more then 9 years away from being born on September 9, 1960.

topscribe
05-25-2011, 08:02 PM
I tried to see if I could find his quote, but he didn't do a personal intro thread so I'd have to scan through every post he made his first week on this site. Therefore, you'll just have to trust my autistic photographic memory when I say he became a Broncos' fan the day we drafted Tebow.

Thought so.

Thanks. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

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HORSEPOWER 56
05-25-2011, 08:18 PM
Okay, so I'm confused... who is the article talking about who had "won at every level"? Brian Griese? He's the only other Broncos QB to "win at every level" except for Tebow.

Mostly though, if drafting winners is a "myth", then we should stick to drafting losers, then? This article makes ZERO real sense and is typical off-season over-opinionated, under-informed, poorly-researched garbage.

Really though, can we all stop using excuses to take shots at one another over Tebow and Orton...

Do we really need to post every BS opinion thread by anyone who owns a computer and has an opinion on Tebow or Orton to scream,

"LOOK, SOMEONE ELSE IN CYBERSPACE WHO DOESN'T MATTER AGREES WITH ME AND DISAGREES WITH YOU!!!!!"

Can't we just let it go and see what happens? PLEASE???

Either way, one side of the argument is going to get their way and the other will be very disappointed. Is all this anger and hating and baiting and insulting really worth it? If Top and RC, et al, get their way and Orton starts, does Bullgator or chazoe60 have to sacrifice their first born child? If Tebow starts, does topscribe have to knock on each door in the state of Florida and beg forgiveness for doubting?

The bottom line is, what is really at stake here by doing nothing more than insulting each other and treating each other in a way that most would never dream of in person just because it's the safety of the internet?

Collectively, we sound like a bunch of idiots arguing, as if our lives depended on it, over something that none of us has any control over. Pretty dumb of us, huh?

BroncoStud
05-25-2011, 11:14 PM
That's right, Robert. And since so many cannot be bothered with such things as
why a team wins or loses -- just wants to place it on the QB -- then Orton's
10-5 record as a rookie trumps Tebow's 1-2 record as a rookie, doesn't it?

-----

Orton is 11-18 here in Denver, and has converted about 31% of his 3rd downs. He has proven, on his own, that he lacks the ability to be a playmaker. Tebow still has to prove it one way or another.

As for Orton, there is YEARS of video to prove his mediocrity and pitiful lack of clutch ability. :salute:

BroncoStud
05-25-2011, 11:18 PM
Exactly. That is exactly what I've been harping on. When Orton wins, it's the
team that did it for him. When he loses, it's all Orton. That has often been the
attitude around here.

-----

That's garbage. Most of us who admit we can't tand Orton being the QB of our beloved Broncos have also admitted on SEVERAL TIMES that Orton wasn't the sole reason Denver lost all of these games. It isn't all his fault just like the wins in Chicago weren't his doing. What we are trying to say, and rightfully so, is that Orton lacks the ability to pick the Broncos up on his shoulders and win. He's just a mediocre QB and he can't get it done in the crunch.

Are the losses his fault? Not entirely. Is he a part of the problem? ABSOLUTELY.

topscribe
05-25-2011, 11:40 PM
Okay, so I'm confused... who is the article talking about who had "won at every level"? Brian Griese? He's the only other Broncos QB to "win at every level" except for Tebow.

Mostly though, if drafting winners is a "myth", then we should stick to drafting losers, then? This article makes ZERO real sense and is typical off-season over-opinionated, under-informed, poorly-researched garbage.

Really though, can we all stop using excuses to take shots at one another over Tebow and Orton...

Do we really need to post every BS opinion thread by anyone who owns a computer and has an opinion on Tebow or Orton to scream,

"LOOK, SOMEONE ELSE IN CYBERSPACE WHO DOESN'T MATTER AGREES WITH ME AND DISAGREES WITH YOU!!!!!"

Can't we just let it go and see what happens? PLEASE???

Either way, one side of the argument is going to get their way and the other will be very disappointed. Is all this anger and hating and baiting and insulting really worth it? If Top and RC, et al, get their way and Orton starts, does Bullgator or chazoe60 have to sacrifice their first born child? If Tebow starts, does topscribe have to knock on each door in the state of Florida and beg forgiveness for doubting?

The bottom line is, what is really at stake here by doing nothing more than insulting each other and treating each other in a way that most would never dream of in person just because it's the safety of the internet?

Collectively, we sound like a bunch of idiots arguing, as if our lives depended on it, over something that none of us has any control over. Pretty dumb of us, huh?

I won't be "getting my way" if Orton starts!! I will be getting my way if the
BEST QUARTERBACK starts. I could care less at that point what is his last
name.

And I have never made any derogatory remarks toward Tebow. I like Tebow!

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Agent of Orange
05-26-2011, 04:52 AM
How is this "myth" exposed when Ortons a marginal carreer winner?





That was already explained.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-26-2011, 07:41 AM
I WON'T BE GETTING MY WAY IF ORTON STARTS!! I WILL BE GETTING MY WAY IF THE BEST QUARTERBACK STARTS. I DON'T GIVE A **** WHAT HIS NAME WILL BE!!

AND I NEVER HAVE MADE ANY DEROGATORY REMARKS TOWARD TEBOW!! I LIKE TEBOW!!

Wow, what happened to reading comprehension? Don't they teach it in schools anymore? :confused:

-----

My point was, and you know this, that you and everyone else has jumped vehemently behind one of these QBs and is ready to fight to the death to defend the honor of a guy who:
a) may be riding the bench in the fall
or
b) might not even be here

WE sound like a bunch of liberal college kids ready to get physically violent during a "peaceful" demonstration because someone doesn't agree with us. Not just you, top... ALL OF US.

I think we all have our preferred starting QB for the upcoming season. Isn't it enough to say who and why and be done with it? I realize that it's a slow summer for football news and there's lockout on, but we sound like a bunch of old women bitching about who's better: Frank Sinatra or Lawrence Welk...

We all need to grow up a little and realize that, for the most part, we're adults speaking to other adults.

BroncoStud
05-26-2011, 09:02 AM
DELEDTED PERSONAL ATTACK

RE, you spent months on here trying to convince us that Josh McDaniels is a good coach and that firing him was a bad move? :lol:

Good luck with that. :elefant:

vandammage13
05-26-2011, 09:54 AM
My point was, and you know this, that you and everyone else has jumped vehemently behind one of these QBs and is ready to fight to the death to defend the honor of a guy who:
a) may be riding the bench in the fall
or
b) might not even be here

WE sound like a bunch of liberal college kids ready to get physically violent during a "peaceful" demonstration because someone doesn't agree with us. Not just you, top... ALL OF US.

I think we all have our preferred starting QB for the upcoming season. Isn't it enough to say who and why and be done with it? I realize that it's a slow summer for football news and there's lockout on, but we sound like a bunch of old women bitching about who's better: Frank Sinatra or Lawrence Welk...

We all need to grow up a little and realize that, for the most part, we're adults speaking to other adults.

LOL...those same liberal kids who preach about being accepting and having an open mind, but are the quickest to get pissed off at anyone with views that do not reflect their own....Haha, yeah I think most of us are guilty of that on this board to some extent. :beer:

jhns
05-26-2011, 10:55 AM
Big deal its only 3 games.

Three games of Tebow completely outplaying Orton. That is even without a head coach. In fact, he did better than the six year vet has ever done...

GEM
05-26-2011, 11:23 AM
Three games of Tebow completely outplaying Orton. That is even without a head coach. In fact, he did better than the six year vet has ever done...

Funny, now Tebow is penalized for having only played 3 games. :laugh:

topscribe
05-26-2011, 11:41 AM
My point was, and you know this, that you and everyone else has jumped vehemently behind one of these QBs and is ready to fight to the death to defend the honor of a guy who:
a) may be riding the bench in the fall
or
b) might not even be here

WE sound like a bunch of liberal college kids ready to get physically violent during a "peaceful" demonstration because someone doesn't agree with us. Not just you, top... ALL OF US.

I think we all have our preferred starting QB for the upcoming season. Isn't it enough to say who and why and be done with it? I realize that it's a slow summer for football news and there's lockout on, but we sound like a bunch of old women bitching about who's better: Frank Sinatra or Lawrence Welk...

We all need to grow up a little and realize that, for the most part, we're adults speaking to other adults.

This is a football message board, HP. What do you suggest we do? It is meant
for discussion and debate.

What am I supposed to do? I see a host of inaccurate claims about a player,
of whom I know more than just about anybody else on the board, and I
produce facts and figures and other documentation to counter it. And I have
been laughed at. Well, I've been around in this life long enough to discover
that idiots laugh at other people. I quoted Einstein in another thread. He said,
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
That pretty well covers it.

I do not approve of some of the personal attacks that go on here. I have been
guilty of retaliating, but not of proactive launching of personal attacks -- and
I have stopped the retaliation. That is why several posters are on my Ignore
list. If I can't see their comments, I can't get offended.

So I agree with you about the tendency of some to go after each other's
throats. But to suspend the silly little debates that go on would be deleterious
to the board, provided everyone sticks to the issues and not make each other
the topics . . .

-----

topscribe
05-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Funny, now Tebow is penalized for having only played 3 games. :laugh:

I don't think anybody is trying to penalize Tebow. It's just that, both scientifically
and according to common sense, three games are not enough to judge or run
any kind of comparisons.

The comparison I did was more in the spirit of sarcasm than anything. Why are
we even comparing the two right now? There is just not been enough production
from Tebow to form an intelligent conclusion.

I think that is what is meant by this "only three games" stuff . . .

-----

GEM
05-26-2011, 11:53 AM
This is a football message board, HP. What do you suggest we do? It is meant
for discussion and debate.

What am I supposed to do? I see a host of inaccurate claims about a player,
of whom I know more than just about anybody else on the board, and I
produce facts and figures and other documentation to counter it. And I have
been laughed at. Well, I've been around in this life long enough to discover
that idiots laugh at other people. I quoted Einstein in another thread. He said,
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
That pretty well covers it.

I do not approve of some of the personal attacks that go on here. I have been
guilty of retaliating, but not of proactive launching of personal attacks -- and
I have stopped the retaliation. That is why several posters are on my Ignore
list. If I can't see their comments, I can't get offended.

So I agree with you about the tendency of some to go after each other's
throats. But to suspend the silly little debates that go on would be deleterious
to the board, provided everyone sticks to the issues and not make each other
the topics . . .

-----

You just typed all that and called those that are on the other side of the argument idiots and quoted them as being mediocre minds. :confused: How is that not a personal attack?

topscribe
05-26-2011, 12:03 PM
You just typed all that and called those that are on the other side of the argument idiots and quoted them as being mediocre minds. :confused: How is that not a personal attack?

I wish you would read my posts as I write them instead of reading into them.
I did not call ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL those on the other side of the argument idiots.
Not in any manner or form did I do that. I called people who laugh at other
people idiots. There is a GARGANTUAN difference.

And "mediocre minds" is a quote by Albert Einstein. He said much the same
thing: Those who belittle and denigrate others for their opinons and ideas
display mediocre minds. And did you notice the phrase "violent opposition" in
there? I have been subject to what I would refer as "violent opposition." That
is why I have several posters on Ignore right now.

It will be a sad day when quoting such an illuminary will be considered a
personal attack.

-----

Ravage!!!
05-26-2011, 12:04 PM
What am I supposed to do? I see a host of inaccurate claims about a player,
of whom I know more than just about anybody else on the board, and I
produce facts and figures and other documentation to counter it.

You don't know more than anyone else, you only BELIEVE you do. Faith doesn't hold water. You have produced facts mixed in with your opinions on what the REASONS are (and those are not facts, those are opinions) for his failures and have continued to IGNORE the facts that have been given to you to counter what YOU consider to be "undeniable" truths.

Same thing you used to say in the debates about former 'bearded' QBs. "Undeniable facts" that proved he wasn't an average QB. Hearing the same thing from you here.

TXBRONC
05-26-2011, 12:38 PM
Funny, now Tebow is penalized for having only played 3 games. :laugh:

He should sit on the bench until he gets more experience. ;)

T.K.O.
05-26-2011, 12:41 PM
i hope the QB who is gonna win the most games is our starter.....could really care less how exciting it is....for me winning IS the exciting part !
i have a feeling that even Orton might look like an exciting player in what could be predominantly "defensive" gameplanning with fox.
but i really REALLY just want to see the broncos above .500% for a change :salute:


p.s. I like Tebow and think with the right coaching he could definately have the "IT" factor we've been lacking unfortunately....we have been lacking the "IT" factor at many other positions as well !!!!!

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 12:43 PM
As Tweety bird says: "You don't know me very well." They have been fans of the Broncos for decades and you think they're just going to drag up? It wont happen Gator. I guarantee it.
Lmao. He said that?
at least top/I haven't said when <fill in player> leaves, we'll follow.

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 12:48 PM
Is that what Bullgator said? I guess he never heard that I saw the first game
the Broncos ever played on 9 September 1960.

I wonder where he was on that day?

I can't read his posts (except in quotes if I choose to, but if I were to do that,
then why have him on Ignore?), but if he would kindly reveal when he first
became a Broncos fan (if he indeed is one), I'll bet, you, TX, would be glad to
relay it . . . :coffee:

-----
That would be difficult to do, top, since he's made so many opposing statements.

TXBRONC
05-26-2011, 12:52 PM
Lmao. He said that?
at least top/I haven't said when <fill in player> leaves, we'll follow.

That's what he said. I know you and Top wont leave just because you're wrong. :D

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 12:55 PM
I won't be "getting my way" if Orton starts!! I will be getting my way if the
BEST QUARTERBACK starts. I could care less at that point what is his last
name.

And I have never made any derogatory remarks toward Tebow. I like Tebow!

-----
Hard to believe even 56 doesn't 'get' our points.

Egad....maybe it Is a lost cause.......



THE HUMANITY OF IT ALLLLLL!
:lol:

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 12:57 PM
My point was, and you know this, that you and everyone else has jumped vehemently behind one of these QBs and is ready to fight to the death to defend the honor of a guy who:
a) may be riding the bench in the fall
or
b) might not even be here

WE sound like a bunch of liberal college kids ready to get physically violent during a "peaceful" demonstration because someone doesn't agree with us. Not just you, top... ALL OF US.

I think we all have our preferred starting QB for the upcoming season. Isn't it enough to say who and why and be done with it? I realize that it's a slow summer for football news and there's lockout on, but we sound like a bunch of old women bitching about who's better: Frank Sinatra or Lawrence Welk...

We all need to grow up a little and realize that, for the most part, we're adults speaking to other adults.
Tell me you didn't just go political!! :eek:


:lol:

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 01:00 PM
Funny, now Tebow is penalized for having only played 3 games. :laugh:That is what I meant in my" HOF" post, G.

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 01:02 PM
You just typed all that and called those that are on the other side of the argument idiots and quoted them as being mediocre minds. :confused: How is that not a personal attack?

No he didn't. Einstein did.

GEM
05-26-2011, 01:02 PM
That is what I meant in my" HOF" post, G.

I know. That's just cause you're a pain in the ass. :lol:

rcsodak
05-26-2011, 01:06 PM
That's what he said. I know you and Top wont leave just because you're wrong. :D:fight:

NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 01:46 PM
Funny, now Tebow is penalized for having only played 3 games. :laugh:

Nobodies "penalizing" Tebow. :lol:

Were just not coming up with solid, clear cut conclusion about the kind of player Tebow is after only 3 games in the NFL.

GEM
05-26-2011, 01:49 PM
Check the first page of the thread and see who brought up comparing Kyle Orton to Tim Tebow's 3 games. ;)

Wasn't me. I just simply confirmed. I wouldn't think 3 games is enough to get even an idea of what he will turn out to be.

NorCalBronco7
05-26-2011, 01:58 PM
Okay, so I'm confused... who is the article talking about who had "won at every level"? Brian Griese? He's the only other Broncos QB to "win at every level" except for Tebow.

Mostly though, if drafting winners is a "myth", then we should stick to drafting losers, then? This article makes ZERO real sense and is typical off-season over-opinionated, under-informed, poorly-researched garbage.

Really though, can we all stop using excuses to take shots at one another over Tebow and Orton...

Do we really need to post every BS opinion thread by anyone who owns a computer and has an opinion on Tebow or Orton to scream,

"LOOK, SOMEONE ELSE IN CYBERSPACE WHO DOESN'T MATTER AGREES WITH ME AND DISAGREES WITH YOU!!!!!"

Can't we just let it go and see what happens? PLEASE???

Either way, one side of the argument is going to get their way and the other will be very disappointed. Is all this anger and hating and baiting and insulting really worth it? If Top and RC, et al, get their way and Orton starts, does Bullgator or chazoe60 have to sacrifice their first born child? If Tebow starts, does topscribe have to knock on each door in the state of Florida and beg forgiveness for doubting?

The bottom line is, what is really at stake here by doing nothing more than insulting each other and treating each other in a way that most would never dream of in person just because it's the safety of the internet?

Collectively, we sound like a bunch of idiots arguing, as if our lives depended on it, over something that none of us has any control over. Pretty dumb of us, huh?

LOL.

Breathe Horsepower, Breathe.

topscribe
05-26-2011, 02:10 PM
Check the first page of the thread and see who brought up comparing Kyle Orton to Tim Tebow's 3 games. ;)

Wasn't me. I just simply confirmed. I wouldn't think 3 games is enough to get even an idea of what he will turn out to be.

That would be I, I guess.

But if you check the context, you might detect a little satire in it . . . :D

-----

GEM
05-26-2011, 02:12 PM
That would be I, I guess.

But if you check the context, you might detect a little satire in it . . . :D

-----

Top...my sarcasm and satire button are broken. :lol: Plus I just like to rile things up a bit. :D

topscribe
05-26-2011, 02:40 PM
Top...my sarcasm and satire button are broken. :lol: Plus I just like to rile things up a bit. :D

Oh, don't I know that! :nod:

:lol:

-----

FanInAZ
05-26-2011, 02:42 PM
John Elway's stats for the 1st 3 games of his NFL career: 28-64, 120 yards, 1 TD, 3 INTs; 5 rushes for 31 yards, 0 TDs

We should have cut the worthless bum right then & there. After all, it only takes 3 games to figure out if a QB is going to have a good career.

BroncoStud
05-26-2011, 07:20 PM
Nobodies "penalizing" Tebow. :lol:

Were just not coming up with solid, clear cut conclusion about the kind of player Tebow is after only 3 games in the NFL.

We have a pretty solid and clear cut conclusion about the kind of player Kyle Orton is after 6 years yet here you are denying it. Ironic much?

:salute:

Bullgator
05-29-2011, 02:06 PM
That's what he said. I know you and Top wont leave just because you're wrong. :D

I lay the sarcasm pretty thick, sooo sometimes it just wooshes overhead. But since I have to explain to you cats....

Of course they wont leave. Thats why its a dig. But the point is they are fondling KO in a manner that would make even the Tebowners (like me) blush. They are acting just like they accuse me of acting. Irony is fun.

They wont leave, but they will be more tolerable!

NorCalBronco7
05-29-2011, 03:23 PM
We have a pretty solid and clear cut conclusion about the kind of player Kyle Orton is after 6 years yet here you are denying it. Ironic much?

:salute:

The reason anyone can come up with conclusions about Orton, Stud, is that he has plenty experience in the NFL. Thats the difference between Orton and Tebow today. And tell me what Im denying, because its not like you actaully discuss points here, only nebulous backhanded comments.

NorCalBronco7
05-29-2011, 03:45 PM
I lay the sarcasm pretty thick, sooo sometimes it just wooshes overhead. But since I have to explain to you cats....

Of course they wont leave. Thats why its a dig. But the point is they are fondling KO in a manner that would make even the Tebowners (like me) blush. They are acting just like they accuse me of acting. Irony is fun.

They wont leave, but they will be more tolerable!

We as Broncos fans, not Gator fans or player fan, can like/dislike anybody on our team since we have no bias (unlike yourself) towards one player.

So those of us that are Broncos fan and respect Orton are acting like a Tebow fan that followed him to the NFL? Except where is the obvious bias coming from, for any player, when Im a Broncos fan above all? Your bias is clear.

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 03:50 PM
I lay the sarcasm pretty thick, sooo sometimes it just wooshes overhead. But since I have to explain to you cats....

Of course they wont leave. Thats why its a dig. But the point is they are fondling KO in a manner that would make even the Tebowners (like me) blush. They are acting just like they accuse me of acting. Irony is fun.

They wont leave, but they will be more tolerable!

Although there is some irony there, didn't you state that if/when Tebow leaves the Broncos, you too would follow him? Didn't you say the only reason you are a Broncos fan, is because of Tebow?

So who is it, that eventually may be more tolerable?

NorCalBronco7
05-29-2011, 03:53 PM
Although there is some irony there, didn't you state that if/when Tebow leaves the Broncos, you too would follow him? Didn't you say the only reason you are a Broncos fan, is because of Tebow?

So who is it, that eventually may be more tolerable?

What irony is there? Im a Broncos fan talking about Qbs with no obvious bias. Gloss it over, but being unclear is not a way display how ironic someone is being.....:coffee:

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 04:00 PM
What irony is there? Im a Broncos fan talking about Qbs with no obvious bias. Gloss it over, but being unclear is not a way display how ironic someone is being.....:coffee:

I'm not sure what you mean by "no obvious bias." Everyone has a bias to their opinion. You are as bias as anyone else.

As far as your second sentence, I have no idea what that means.

NorCalBronco7
05-29-2011, 04:07 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "no obvious bias." Everyone has a bias to their opinion. You are as bias as anyone else.

As far as your second sentence, I have no idea what that means.

Im clearly bias towards Broncos players like BullGator.....:tsk:

Bullgator
05-29-2011, 04:57 PM
Im clearly bias towards Broncos players like BullGator.....:tsk:

A) IMO there is nothing wrong with being a fan of one player. Its people like you that think being a fan of a logo has more meaning than being the fan of another human being. LOL putting that down is highlarryious.I got no problems pulling for a character guy where ever he goes. So its you who thinks thats an insult not me.

B) Its only gets funny when a professed hater of biases is more biased than even the Gator fan.

C) Im pretty sure I never even acknowledged you Nocal... let alone implicated that you were a poser. You just jumped in there by yourself. Those other around here know who Im referring to.

TXBRONC
05-29-2011, 06:36 PM
Although there is some irony there, didn't you state that if/when Tebow leaves the Broncos, you too would follow him? Didn't you say the only reason you are a Broncos fan, is because of Tebow?

So who is it, that eventually may be more tolerable?

Indeed he did.

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 07:52 PM
Lets hate Tebow because we want to worship Kyle Orton!

Tebow played three games and had better stats than Orton through 15 games. That is just sad...
Which 18 game schedule was that.

:laugh:

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 08:09 PM
Why is it that if you like Orton, you have to hate Tebow? And why is it that if you like Tebow, you have to hate Orton.

Wake up call.....go back to my posts before Tim even got here....I've been calling Kyle the fainting goat since he got here. ;) And that's not because Tim got here, that's because Orton is boring. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

I just do not see how you call the QB that almost was the league in 20+, 30+ and 40+ completions boring. Had he not been injured who knows if he would have been the leader instead of just in the top 5.

As far as being a fan of one or not the other. Myself I'm a bronco fan and will HOPE the he is a winner.

It is the folks that seem To think that calling Him names will bait us into further dialog. Those are the haters.

Now that said I know that me using mikey sounds hypocritical but I have been using mikey or going on a decade. Not quite the same as what is going on now for Josh. The current FAd. Of the haters IMHO.

I started using it because of the commercial "Mikey will eat anything". And it stuck.

topscribe
05-29-2011, 08:16 PM
I just do not see how you call the QB that almost was the league in 20+, 30+ and 40+ completions boring. Had he not been injured who knows if he would have been the leader instead of just in the top 5.

As far as being a fan of one or not the other. Myself I'm a bronco fan and will HOPE the he is a winner.

It is the folks that seem To think that calling Him names will bait us into further dialog. Those are the haters.

Now that said I know that me using mikey sounds hypocritical but I have been using mikey or going on a decade. Not quite the same as what is going on now for Josh. The current FAd. Of the haters IMHO.

I started using it because of the commercial "Mikey will eat anything". And it stuck.

Only thing is, it worked: We did indeed get baited into further dialog . . . :lol:

-----

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 08:28 PM
I don't fit your example.
I'm not anti TT while backing orton.

Sadly, for the most part, that can't be said for the other side.

Yet anyone that points out that Orton is not the devil incarnate is considered wrong and made fun of.

When we are merely trying to set the record that is so often totally distorted.

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 08:38 PM
Yet anyone that points out that Orton is not the devil incarnate is considered wrong and made fun of.

When we are merely trying to set the record that is so often totally distorted.

Exactly. If you're not in the 'orton sux club', you're evidently wrong. :rolleyes:

BroncoStud
05-29-2011, 08:43 PM
The reason anyone can come up with conclusions about Orton, Stud, is that he has plenty experience in the NFL. Thats the difference between Orton and Tebow today. And tell me what Im denying, because its not like you actaully discuss points here, only nebulous backhanded comments.

I will discuss anything about Orton you wish to. I've watched him play since Purdue. I wasn't impressed THEN and am not impressed now.

While Jay had his mental issues, and when he talked trash on Rivers then wouldn't look him in the eye at midfield before the game, I knew he was mentally weak, and I knew that would always hold him back.

That said, when he demanded a trade and we got Orton, I knew that we were getting an average NFL QB, average in almost every way. Now, you can say that average isn't half bad, but it isn't much better than half good either.

It's almost like SOME, not most Broncos fans have forgotten what it was like to watch the Broncos offense for the past 30 years... We have had almost consecutively GOOD QB play since 1984. Griese made a Pro Bowl and played well (before he got stupid), then Plummer came in and did a great job, won the Broncos a LOT of football games and was fun as hell to watch, then Cutler took over and did a GOOD job, had all sorts of potential under Shanahan, and then we have Orton, who has OK stats, average in most areas, below average in the most crucial, conversion downs.

Orton had GOOD defenses and GOOD running games in Chicago, and it took Rex Grossman to get the to a Super Bowl. Orton had GREAT special teams in Chicago to help him in field position and points along with a very opportunistic defense that caused a lot of turnovers, and still, the results were VERY mediocre on his part. He gets hurt, rushes himself into the lineup after Grossman plays VERY well, and the Bears miss the playoffs as Orton goes 8 TDs and 8 INTs down the stretch.

The Bears were so estatic about stealing our franchise QB that they threw in Orton as a package of crackers for the side salad. 2 years later the Bears are a game away from the Super Bowl and Orton is 11-18 as the starter in Denver.

But STILL, there are the vocal minority of Orton supporters here in Denver who drink the kool-aid so much they STILL think he should be the starter, after his pathetic 31% conversions on 3rd down, down a full 16% since he took over the job from Jay Cutler.

Orton isn't horrible, and that is his curse. He's just good enough to compete for jobs but he isn't good enough to keep them. That is why Orton is destructive to organizations. He doesn't WANT to be a backup, he doesn't WANT to be Jon Kitna. The problem is that he lacks the TALENT to be a GOOD QB in the NFL. He requires the spread offense, a LOT of passing attempts, and an offense designed for his weaknesses to succeed, in a traditional dropback NFL offense he has PROVEN, on film and in stats, to be nothing more than a mediocre NFL QB who will ALWAYS stuggle because of his physical and mental (inability to succeed under pressure) limitations.

Orton is holding the Broncos back on offense, and the 3-game sample Tebow gave us went far to supporting that. Orton can't make 1/10th of the plays that Tebow, A ROOKIE WITH ZERO PRACTICE REPS did.

I think it's comical that there are some who actually believe Elway is going to keep Orton around. Why would he? To cause this young team controversy? To be a sideline distraction? Even if he were to start the pressure will be WAY too much. If he is backing up that just gives Tebow un-needed pressure during his development of a QB-mentor who is unwilling to help him and is simply in it for himself. Orton's body language in some of our losses made me, as a fan, SO DAMN angry that I wanted him to be cut on the spot. He just isn't in it for the Broncos, he's in it for himself. Elway knows this, he's no fool, he played the position arguably better than anyone else in history, he knows what Orton is.

Orton will be gone before the Broncos play a down of meaningful football.

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 08:44 PM
Exactly. If you're not in the 'orton sux club', you're wvidently wrong.

yeah, thats it. Its not like we haven't had the "Orton is the man" shoved down our throats. Quit this "poor us, we are picked on" junk.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Some have pushed SO hard in favor of Orton, that it created a harder push in return. Just as we saw the reaction against Tebow when some of the "Tebownizers" were filling the message boards with how "great" Tebow is.

sneakers
05-29-2011, 08:47 PM
OMG.. I forgot about the fainting goats!!

we9_CdNPuJg

I think I saw peyton manning in there too

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 08:47 PM
I think I saw peyton manning in there too

No. I've never seen that from Peyton.

Lonestar
05-29-2011, 09:11 PM
Anytime anything positive is said about Tebow, the Orton crusaders come to the rescue. Anytime anything positive is said about Orton, the Teboners come to the rescue. It works both ways, very often in a lot of different threads.

It can be said for both sides.

And you perpetuate it with the Orton crusaders comment.

I realize that it was used as an example or was it.
Many that like the kid get rankled by such commentary. It is not like mostdo nit see the writing on the wall.

But then Fox coming in might have saved his long term job. Which will infuriate many.

sneakers
05-29-2011, 10:16 PM
No. I've never seen that from Peyton.

B8ptzy11RZs

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 10:20 PM
yeah, thats it. Its not like we haven't had the "Orton is the man" shoved down our throats. Quit this "poor us, we are picked on" junk.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Some have pushed SO hard in favor of Orton, that it created a harder push in return. Just as we saw the reaction against Tebow when some of the "Tebownizers" were filling the message boards with how "great" Tebow is.

Lmao.

Yea, rav. We've started all these orton is great threads, right?

FAIL

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 10:44 PM
Lmao.

Yea, rav. We've started all these orton is great threads, right?

FAIL

there you go again, rc.. you are the poor victim. You are being separated and attacked.. persecuted because of your beliefs :lol: I know I know. It's tough being you. Yet you keep coming in "all these orton threads," don't you?

You, of all people, are just as much a problem as anyone else "Targeting you" because you defend anyone. Please stop with this "poor us" routine.

Its pathetic. :coffee:

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 10:49 PM
there you go again, rc.. you are the poor victim. You are being separated and attacked.. persecuted because of your beliefs :lol: I know I know. It's tough being you. Yet you keep coming in "all these orton threads," don't you?

You, of all people, are just as much a problem as anyone else "Targeting you" because you defend anyone. Please stop with this "poor us" routine.

Its pathetic. :coffee:
Wow. You have quite the lively imagination tonight. No 'wo is me' came from my fingers. But it WAS you accusing us of propagating orton threads. Too bad its just the opposite.
:lol:

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 10:52 PM
Wow. You have quite the lively imagination tonight. No 'wo is me' came from my fingers. But it WAS you accusing us of propagating orton threads. Too bad its just the opposite.
:lol:

What are you talking about?? :lol: Once again, you are making yourself look more foolish by the moment. I've stated no such thing. I've never typed anything like that, whatsoever. It's really sad that you are now relying on making things up, rc. Show me where I've said you are "propagating orton threads" or even MAKING threads at all.

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 10:56 PM
Once again, you are making yourself look more foolish by the moment. I've stated no such thing. I've never typed anything like that, whatsoever. It's really sad that you are now relying on making things up, rc. Show me where I've said you are "propagating orton threads" or even MAKING threads at all.
I'm tired of being right......

" 10:20 PM Today Originally Posted by Ravage!!!: yeah, thats it. Its not like we haven't had the "Orton is the man" shoved down our throats."

:coffee:

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 10:58 PM
I'm tired of being right......

" 10:20 PM Today Originally Posted by Ravage!!!: yeah, thats it. Its not like we haven't had the "Orton is the man" shoved down our throats."

:coffee:

I'm still waiting for you to BE right :lol: Its getting sad.

Where does this even IMPLY the making of threads??? :lol:

Its time you put down your drinks and get some sleep, its obvious you are dizzy.

rcsodak
05-29-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm still waiting for you to BE right :lol: Its getting sad.

Where does this even IMPLY the making of threads??? :lol:

Its time you put down your drinks and get some sleep, its obvious you are dizzy.

May not be how you meant it, but its how it was taken. Its not like we make orton is elway threads. We post in his defense. If he wasn't attacked, ad nauseum, we wouldn't have to spend time defending. And in our defending, we are attacked. So in actuality, you are attacking us for defending orton.

I rest my case.

Case closed.

Guten nacht

Ravage!!!
05-29-2011, 11:08 PM
May not be how you meant it, but its how it was taken. Its not like we make orton is elway threads. We post in his defense. If he wasn't attacked, ad nauseum, we wouldn't have to spend time defending. And in our defending, we are attacked. So in actuality, you are attacking us for defending orton.

I rest my case.

Case closed.

Guten nacht

:lol: ahahaaha... wow.. ahaha :lol: this is just sooo funny :lol:

topscribe
05-29-2011, 11:32 PM
B8ptzy11RZs

Worth showing again . . .

-----

Canmore
05-29-2011, 11:36 PM
Worth showing again . . .

-----

I only get the dreaded red x.

NorCalBronco7
05-29-2011, 11:53 PM
I will discuss anything about Orton you wish to. I've watched him play since Purdue. I wasn't impressed THEN and am not impressed now.

While Jay had his mental issues, and when he talked trash on Rivers then wouldn't look him in the eye at midfield before the game, I knew he was mentally weak, and I knew that would always hold him back.

That said, when he demanded a trade and we got Orton, I knew that we were getting an average NFL QB, average in almost every way. Now, you can say that average isn't half bad, but it isn't much better than half good either.

It's almost like SOME, not most Broncos fans have forgotten what it was like to watch the Broncos offense for the past 30 years... We have had almost consecutively GOOD QB play since 1984. Griese made a Pro Bowl and played well (before he got stupid), then Plummer came in and did a great job, won the Broncos a LOT of football games and was fun as hell to watch, then Cutler took over and did a GOOD job, had all sorts of potential under Shanahan, and then we have Orton, who has OK stats, average in most areas, below average in the most crucial, conversion downs.

Orton had GOOD defenses and GOOD running games in Chicago, and it took Rex Grossman to get the to a Super Bowl. Orton had GREAT special teams in Chicago to help him in field position and points along with a very opportunistic defense that caused a lot of turnovers, and still, the results were VERY mediocre on his part. He gets hurt, rushes himself into the lineup after Grossman plays VERY well, and the Bears miss the playoffs as Orton goes 8 TDs and 8 INTs down the stretch.

The Bears were so estatic about stealing our franchise QB that they threw in Orton as a package of crackers for the side salad. 2 years later the Bears are a game away from the Super Bowl and Orton is 11-18 as the starter in Denver.

But STILL, there are the vocal minority of Orton supporters here in Denver who drink the kool-aid so much they STILL think he should be the starter, after his pathetic 31% conversions on 3rd down, down a full 16% since he took over the job from Jay Cutler.

Orton isn't horrible, and that is his curse. He's just good enough to compete for jobs but he isn't good enough to keep them. That is why Orton is destructive to organizations. He doesn't WANT to be a backup, he doesn't WANT to be Jon Kitna. The problem is that he lacks the TALENT to be a GOOD QB in the NFL. He requires the spread offense, a LOT of passing attempts, and an offense designed for his weaknesses to succeed, in a traditional dropback NFL offense he has PROVEN, on film and in stats, to be nothing more than a mediocre NFL QB who will ALWAYS stuggle because of his physical and mental (inability to succeed under pressure) limitations.

Orton is holding the Broncos back on offense, and the 3-game sample Tebow gave us went far to supporting that. Orton can't make 1/10th of the plays that Tebow, A ROOKIE WITH ZERO PRACTICE REPS did.

I think it's comical that there are some who actually believe Elway is going to keep Orton around. Why would he? To cause this young team controversy? To be a sideline distraction? Even if he were to start the pressure will be WAY too much. If he is backing up that just gives Tebow un-needed pressure during his development of a QB-mentor who is unwilling to help him and is simply in it for himself. Orton's body language in some of our losses made me, as a fan, SO DAMN angry that I wanted him to be cut on the spot. He just isn't in it for the Broncos, he's in it for himself. Elway knows this, he's no fool, he played the position arguably better than anyone else in history, he knows what Orton is.

Orton will be gone before the Broncos play a down of meaningful football.

Orton possibly could go. And really If the Broncos could get at least a 3rd rounder they should, but its not writing on the wall. He very well could stayon Denver.



Your opinion of Orton is fine with me. Its not like I think Ortons a franchise Qb, but I dont think hes a scrub either. Tebow on the other hand, I have no idea how he will do over the course of a season. Tebows very much an unceartainty. You seem to be more confident in him than his 3 games could possibly show.



I know Fox likes his vets. Orton might compliment what Fox likes to do and thats run the ball and play defense. Not sure that will be his exact appoarch this year, though.

GEM
05-30-2011, 12:12 AM
Where did joshy and mikey come into this? And teboner is a name used just as often as ortonary.

And the orton supporters come into tebow threads all the time and bring up orton. Happens all the time, baiting those wanting to talk about tebow into another orton debate. Everyone is guilty here. No one side is worse than the other.


I just do not see how you call the QB that almost was the league in 20+, 30+ and 40+ completions boring. Had he not been injured who knows if he would have been the leader instead of just in the top 5.

As far as being a fan of one or not the other. Myself I'm a bronco fan and will HOPE the he is a winner.

It is the folks that seem To think that calling Him names will bait us into further dialog. Those are the haters.

Now that said I know that me using mikey sounds hypocritical but I have been using mikey or going on a decade. Not quite the same as what is going on now for Josh. The current FAd. Of the haters IMHO.

I started using it because of the commercial "Mikey will eat anything". And it stuck.


Only thing is, it worked: We did indeed get baited into further dialog . . . :lol:

-----

GEM
05-30-2011, 12:19 AM
Yet anyone that points out that Orton is not the devil incarnate is considered wrong and made fun of.

When we are merely trying to set the record that is so often totally distorted.

That is completely untrue. No one has come close to saying orton is the devil incarnate. Almost 100% of those on the anti side of the orton fence have said he an ok to average qb who wasnt the only problem since getting her, but that he isnt strong enough of a qb to ivercome any of those other issues. Thus being a part of the problem, not an answer

GEM
05-30-2011, 12:55 AM
And you perpetuate it with the Orton crusaders comment.

I realize that it was used as an example or was it.
Many that like the kid get rankled by such commentary. It is not like mostdo nit see the writing on the wall.

But then Fox coming in might have saved his long term job. Which will infuriate many.

Did you bother reading the entire post or did you just see orton crusader and hit reply? I freaking used teboner in the same sentence to describe the perceived other side. Hey Zeus H. Crimeney... Reading is fundamental.

atwater27
05-30-2011, 02:03 AM
B8ptzy11RZs

I've seen every NFL QB do that against an obvious sack.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 02:21 AM
Where did joshy and mikey come into this? And teboner is a name used just as often as ortonary.

And the orton supporters come into tebow threads all the time and bring up orton. Happens all the time, baiting those wanting to talk about tebow into another orton debate. Everyone is guilty here. No one side is worse than the other.

Bullshit, if you are including me. My involvement has almost always been joining
an Orton debate in progress in reaction to false and erroneous statements
about him. I have not gone into Tebow threads baiting people. In fact, I
seldom ever go into Tebow threads at all.

-----

sneakers
05-30-2011, 06:36 AM
I've seen every NFL QB do that against an obvious sack.

Yes, but some are more notorious for it than others....Peyton Manning being the worst of the bunch.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 07:28 AM
Yes, but some are more notorious for it than others....Peyton Manning being the worst of the bunch.

I disagree with you there sneakers. I have seen Manning move away from the pressure more times than I've seen things like that.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 09:37 AM
Exactly. If you're not in the 'orton sux club', you're evidently wrong. :rolleyes:

You're wrong if you're in the "Orton is an NFL stater club"... He doesn't suck though, he's just not good either.

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 09:48 AM
You're wrong if you're in the "Orton is an NFL stater club"... He doesn't suck though, he's just not good either.

Name the 32 quarterbacks who are better.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 09:56 AM
I've seen every NFL QB do that against an obvious sack.exactly. Its when the anti's run out of disses, they start reaching.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 10:01 AM
Name the 32 quarterbacks who are better.
Welcome, mo. Good question.
I have yet to hear one, TRUE, nfl analyst/coach/player/FO guy say orton is not nfl starter material.

But I CAN and have named them that say he is. Hellsbells, they were asking amongst themselves on sirius last year if he was MVP material.

Slick
05-30-2011, 10:13 AM
Name the 32 quarterbacks who are better.

Orton is a turd Mo. The Denver Broncos need to do better.


I've missed you dearly. Glad you are back buddy.

atwater27
05-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Yes, but some are more notorious for it than others....Peyton Manning being the worst of the bunch.

Dude, it's because he is the slowest QB in the league. Why get rocked if you can just hit the deck? So much hate...

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 10:27 AM
Orton is a turd Mo. The Denver Broncos need to do better.


I've missed you dearly. Glad you are back buddy.

Oh, I think Denver needs to find out if Tebow is the future or not, and need to trade Orton, but I don't understand why people think Orton can't start in the NFL. I can't name 32 quarterbacks who should start over Orton, so I'm just curious where that comes from and if they have 32 quarterbacks they'd prefer over Orton.

Poet
05-30-2011, 10:27 AM
Dude, it's because he is the slowest QB in the league. Why get rocked if you can just hit the deck? So much hate...

Yeah, Manning is that entire team at this point. If Mario tears him a new one it could literally end their season. There's no point

topscribe
05-30-2011, 10:44 AM
I only get the dreaded red x.

Here, you can go to it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ptzy11RZs&feature=player_embedded

-----

Slick
05-30-2011, 10:47 AM
Oh, I think Denver needs to find out if Tebow is the future or not, and need to trade Orton, but I don't understand why people think Orton can't start in the NFL. I can't name 32 quarterbacks who should start over Orton, so I'm just curious where that comes from and if they have 32 quarterbacks they'd prefer over Orton.

I agree. He is not nearly as bad as some make him out to be, nor as good as others seem to think.

I think we as a forum have taken any Orton debate as far as we can take it. I'm amazed that some continue with it.

My personal belief is that it would be in the long term best interest of the team to trade Orton as soon as they can (get what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing next year), and start the Tebow evaluation process while we are rebuilding.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 10:50 AM
Dude, it's because he is the slowest QB in the league. Why get rocked if you can just hit the deck? So much hate...


Yeah, Manning is that entire team at this point. If Mario tears him a new one it could literally end their season. There's no point

Exactly. So why are so many on this board giving Orton so much grief when he
took a dive with three defensive lineman reaching for him? I think this was a
smart move by Manning, and that was a smart move for Orton. I don't think it
is any different than taking a slide after scrambling for yardage. It is a stupid
argument by those who apparently have never played.

-----

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 10:52 AM
I agree. He is not nearly as bad as some make him out to be, nor as good as others seem to think.

I think we as a forum have taken any Orton debate as far as we can take it. I'm amazed that some continue with it.

My personal belief is that it would be in the long term best interest of the team to trade Orton as soon as they can (get what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing next year), and start the Tebow evaluation process while we are rebuilding.

The lockout has come at a terrible time for the Broncos.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 10:53 AM
I agree. He is not nearly as bad as some make him out to be, nor as good as others seem to think.

I think we as a forum have taken any Orton debate as far as we can take it. I'm amazed that some continue with it.

My personal belief is that it would be in the long term best interest of the team to trade Orton as soon as they can (get what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing next year), and start the Tebow evaluation process while we are rebuilding.

That doesn't make sense, Slick. You prove the unknown quantity first, then, if
the unknown quantity proves out, that is when you jettison the known quantity.
The idea of trading Orton then finding out what they have in Tebow is silly, IMO.

-----

Nomad
05-30-2011, 10:54 AM
I agree. He is not nearly as bad as some make him out to be, nor as good as others seem to think.

I think we as a forum have taken any Orton debate as far as we can take it. I'm amazed that some continue with it.

My personal belief is that it would be in the long term best interest of the team to trade Orton as soon as they can (get what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing next year), and start the Tebow evaluation process while we are rebuilding.


The lockout has come at a terrible time for the Broncos.

Agreed!

Slick
05-30-2011, 10:55 AM
The lockout has come at a terrible time for the Broncos.

Absolutely.

HammeredOut
05-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Bullshit, if you are including me. My involvement has almost always been joining
an Orton debate in progress in reaction to false and erroneous statements
about him. I have not gone into Tebow threads baiting people. In fact, I
seldom ever go into Tebow threads at all.

-----

I find it funny that fans think Tebow will save the franchise, and be a franchise QB. I think Brady Quinn will pan out before that ever happens. Everybody wants to dismiss stats, and make up general statements that have nothing to do with football. Sure people run away with the same stat, about Orton's 3rd down conversions, but they always fail to recognize how bad the run game was last season, and not even the run game was getting 3rd down conversions. This team lacks a playmaking TE, and RB. Simple as that, a QB's best friend, is always the playmaker who gets open in short yardage. Broncos don't have any of that.

The run game was so bad last season, we had to bring in Tebow for the run option hb pass plays on 3rd down conversions. Which is ugly to watch.

Last season, teams had to account for Orton's 3rd best YPG total in the air, and never had to worry about a run threat. So when Tebow came in late last year, teams litterally had no tape on Tebow making passes down field going back into college. 95% of Tebows passing plays came from throwing it in the flat, and dump offs. So nobody knows what his tendencies were and are, other then the fact his run option half back pass to the flat is his money play. Not one time in College did teams ever have to gear up to stop Tebow from passing the ball, because Tebows "Catapult" windup was even to ugly for the coach to give Tebow more reps passing the ball.

Tebow averaged 15 completions a game, and about 12 completions on average were in the flat to his sub 4.4 scatbacks.

Tebow will never be a winning quarterback in this league, not with his "Catapult" windup, bad release, and litterally no experience throwing the ball down field. If anything, i would make Tebow a FB and let him lead block.

Slick
05-30-2011, 11:00 AM
That doesn't make sense, Slick. You prove the unknown quantity first, then, if
the unknown quantity proves out, that is when you jettison the known quantity.
The idea of trading Orton then finding out what they have in Tebow is silly, IMO.

-----

If we were even close to being a good team then I'd agree Top. I think it would hurt us more to continue to start Orton and wait to evaluate Tim.

BroncoJoe
05-30-2011, 11:06 AM
Found this interesting re: Tebow's college stats:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/107746-stats-dont-lie-tim-tebow-is-a-better-downfield-passer-than-sam-bradford


Nearly fifty percent (yes, 50 percent!) of Tebow's passing yards came on throws of 15 yards or more.

Some doubters may argue that Tebow benefits from speedy playmakers who turn five-yard slants into 50-yard gains. That is just perception. In reality, Bradford's receivers (especially his tight end, Jermaine Gresham) gain a larger percentage of their receiving yards after the catch than Tebow's receivers.

Bradford's receivers gained 54 percent of their yards after the catch. Florida's receivers gained only 42 percent of their yards after the catch.

Not sure the above post jives with this article...

topscribe
05-30-2011, 11:11 AM
If we were even close to being a good team then I'd agree Top. I think it would hurt us more to continue to start Orton and wait to evaluate Tim.

First, I don't agree, and neither does Fox, that the Broncos are not close to
being a good team. Both Elway and Fox have stressed they want to win NOW.

Orton's passing game was the ONE successful part of the team. Not rushing,
not defense. If the engine to my car is hitting on all cylinders and my tranny
goes out, I don't fix the engine.

Still, it does not make sense in any kind of scenario - whether we are talking
about the Broncos or anything not even football related - to jettison a working
part before finding out whether its replacement works or not. That just does not
make any sense whatsoever. :tsk:

-----

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 11:12 AM
Found this interesting re: Tebow's college stats:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/107746-stats-dont-lie-tim-tebow-is-a-better-downfield-passer-than-sam-bradford



Not sure the above post jives with this article...

Bleacherreport? Seriously? :lol:

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 11:13 AM
That doesn't make sense, Slick. You prove the unknown quantity first, then, if
the unknown quantity proves out, that is when you jettison the known quantity.
The idea of trading Orton then finding out what they have in Tebow is silly, IMO.

-----

We have the proven quantity, and know that the proven quantity is not the future of this franchise. Even the most Orton backer can not believe that Orton is the future of this team.

If you are saying that Orton is "better than nothing".. I think that can be said for a LOT of average QBs. None of which are what you build your team around and all can "hold the spot" while you search for your man.

There is no reason to hold a spot for a guy that can easily be replaced. Orton isn't the worst in the NFL, but he is absolutely, easily replaced.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 11:16 AM
I find it funny that fans think Tebow will save the franchise, and be a franchise QB. I think Brady Quinn will pan out before that ever happens. Everybody wants to dismiss stats, and make up general statements that have nothing to do with football. Sure people run away with the same stat, about Orton's 3rd down conversions, but they always fail to recognize how bad the run game was last season, and not even the run game was getting 3rd down conversions. This team lacks a playmaking TE, and RB. Simple as that, a QB's best friend, is always the playmaker who gets open in short yardage. Broncos don't have any of that.

The run game was so bad last season, we had to bring in Tebow for the run option hb pass plays on 3rd down conversions. Which is ugly to watch.

Last season, teams had to account for Orton's 3rd best YPG total in the air, and never had to worry about a run threat. So when Tebow came in late last year, teams litterally had no tape on Tebow making passes down field going back into college. 95% of Tebows passing plays came from throwing it in the flat, and dump offs. So nobody knows what his tendencies were and are, other then the fact his run option half back pass to the flat is his money play. Not one time in College did teams ever have to gear up to stop Tebow from passing the ball, because Tebows "Catapult" windup was even to ugly for the coach to give Tebow more reps passing the ball.

Tebow averaged 15 completions a game, and about 12 completions on average were in the flat to his sub 4.4 scatbacks.

Tebow will never be a winning quarterback in this league, not with his "Catapult" windup, bad release, and litterally no experience throwing the ball down field. If anything, i would make Tebow a FB and let him lead block.

Well, maybe Tebow will become a Franchise QB, HO. He does show promise.
My point is, however, they should be sure before shipping Orton off . . .

-----

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 11:17 AM
We have the proven quantity, and know that the proven quantity is not the future of this franchise. Even the most Orton backer can not believe that Orton is the future of this team.

If you are saying that Orton is "better than nothing".. I think that can be said for a LOT of average QBs. None of which are what you build your team around and all can "hold the spot" while you search for your man.

There is no reason to hold a spot for a guy that can easily be replaced. Orton isn't the worst in the NFL, but he is absolutely, easily replaced.

I would be perfectly fine going forward with Orton.

BUT...Tebow was drafted and is on this roster, so I think Denver needs to move Orton and move on with Tebow and Quinn, and hope one turns into a quality quarterback.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Bleacherreport? Seriously? :lol:

Now it's about downfield passing? If that is the issue, then why would they look
elsewhere than Orton, who is one of the better deep passers in the game?

-----

BroncoJoe
05-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Bleacherreport? Seriously? :lol:

They are completely unreliable?

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 11:22 AM
I would be perfectly fine going forward with Orton.

BUT...Tebow was drafted and is on this roster, so I think Denver needs to move Orton and move on with Tebow and Quinn, and hope one turns into a quality quarterback.

Thats fine, but I think we know Orton is not the future of this team. He's the kind of QB that we see throughout the NFL that is there "until." Until they find a new one.

I have my doubts about Tebow being a good NFL QB, but we need to find out. I don't really know if he's going to be good, but I while saying that I feel confident in saying that we aren't losing a lot with him starting over Orton. I can't see us losing a lot of games BECAUSE of Tebow instead of Orton.

I also feel that if Tebow is NOT the QB we need him to be, then we can easily find another QB of Orton's skill level to take over the reigns..... if we don't use a high draft pick to replace he and Orton.

Orton just isn't a high level enough that "demands" we keep him, when he's a middle-road guy anyway.

Slick
05-30-2011, 11:33 AM
First, I don't agree, and neither does Fox, that the Broncos are not close to
being a good team. Both Elway and Fox have stressed they want to win NOW.

Orton's passing game was the ONE successful part of the team. Not rushing,
not defense. If the engine to my car is hitting on all cylinders and my tranny
goes out, I don't fix the engine.

Still, it does not make sense in any kind of scenario - whether we are talking
about the Broncos or anything not even football related - to jettison a working
part before finding out whether its replacement works or not. That just does not
make any sense whatsoever. :tsk:

-----

Fair enough Top.

You and EFX see it differently than I do. If Orton starts next year I'll wish him the very best, but I'll continue to wish for a replacement while doing so.

See you in the Lounge until we have something worthwhile to talk about.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 11:59 AM
Well, maybe Tebow will become a Franchise QB, HO. He does show promise.
My point is, however, they should be sure before shipping Orton off . . .

-----

We will NEVER know if Tebow is the guy or not if Orton is starting for the Broncos and leading us to 3 wins. As long as Orton is here and playing the organization can't move forward at the QB position.

It's why logic dictates that he will be gone.

Poet
05-30-2011, 12:06 PM
This is football, theory and 'logic crafting' have very little to do with anything.

It's not science or mathematics.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 12:11 PM
They are completely unreliable?
Gee....let me go post something under an alias and we'll see. :lol:

BroncoJoe
05-30-2011, 12:17 PM
Gee....let me go post something under an alias and we'll see. :lol:

Isn't that what you/we do here? :lol:

Either way, HammeredOut constantly states Tebow can't throw the "long ball" and I can't find anything to substantiate or refute his opinion.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Oh, I think Denver needs to find out if Tebow is the future or not, and need to trade Orton, but I don't understand why people think Orton can't start in the NFL. I can't name 32 quarterbacks who should start over Orton, so I'm just curious where that comes from and if they have 32 quarterbacks they'd prefer over Orton.

Imho Orton is a second tier quarterback. He's not elite or even potentially elite like some think. But he's not a bottom feeder. Yes he capable if he has a lot of help. That said why should we settle for second best if we don't have too?

Btw welcome back. :beer:

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 12:58 PM
Isn't that what you/we do here? :lol:

Either way, HammeredOut constantly states Tebow can't throw the "long ball" and I can't find anything to substantiate or refute his opinion.

True. But I don't quote my earlier posts and say" see!?" :lol:

I didn't see much of him in college, other than the OU game. They were beating the shit out of him and he wasnt doing much until harvin came alive. But there's no denying he had better athletes around him compared to most of the teams they played that year, so he could get away with getting the ball to his playmakers short. But in his defense, that IS the idea of recruiting.

BroncoJoe
05-30-2011, 01:56 PM
Only time will tell.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 02:10 PM
Only time will tell.
Agreed

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 04:19 PM
You're wrong if you're in the "Orton is an NFL stater club"... He doesn't suck though, he's just not good either.

:lol:


Ortons better than most of the starters in the NFL last year. Please Stud, since starting NFL Qbs grow on trees, make a list of all the Qbs that are better than Orton so we can laugh at it.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 04:41 PM
:lol:


Ortons better than most of the starters in the NFL last year. Please Stud, since starting NFL Qbs grow on trees, make a list of all the Qbs that are better than Orton so we can laugh at it.

Quaterbacks that better than Orton:

Brady

P. Manning

Ryan

Rogers

Cutler

Flacco

Freeman

Rivers

Roethlisberger

E. Manning

Sanchez I think will eventually be on the list.

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 04:45 PM
Quaterbacks that better than Orton:

Brady
P. Manning
Ryan
Rogers
Cutler
Flacco
Freeman
Rivers
Roethlisberger
E. Manning

Sanchez I think will eventually be on the list.

I don't see 32 players listed there...

For me, I would take Manning, Brees, Rogers, Brady, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, Manning, Schaub and Palmer over Orton.

However, the Broncos are not in a position to sign any of those players I listed above...always a key component to the "Orton isn't an NFL starter" argument.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 04:56 PM
Quaterbacks that better than Orton:

Brady

P. Manning

Ryan

Rogers

Cutler

Flacco

Freeman

Rivers

Roethlisberger

E. Manning

Sanchez I think will eventually be on the list.

Schaub, Brees and Vick.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 05:27 PM
Schaub, Brees and Vick.

Good catch. I might not include Vick.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't see 32 players listed there...

For me, I would take Manning, Brees, Rogers, Brady, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, Manning, Schaub and Palmer over Orton.

However, the Broncos are not in a position to sign any of those players I listed above...always a key component to the "Orton isn't an NFL starter" argument.

My point is that Orton is in the 2nd tier starting quarterbacks not that their 32 quarterbacks better than he is not that we could bring any of them in. All the quarterbacks I listed are franchise quarterbacks and they aren't going anywhere. If we have to make do with Orton then that's what happens but I'm not sold on him as long term solution.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 05:40 PM
My point is that Orton is in the 2nd tier starting quarterbacks not that their 32 quarterbacks better than he is not that we could bring any of them in. All the quarterbacks I listed are franchise quarterbacks and they aren't going anywhere. If we have to make do with Orton then that's what happens but I'm not sold on him as long term solution.

Except that all you provided regarding those QBs is your opinion . . .

-----

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 05:50 PM
Except that all you provided regarding those QBs is your opinion . . .

-----

Don't think so.

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 05:52 PM
Except that all you provided regarding those QBs is your opinion . . .

-----

No it's not. Everyone of those quarterbacks are considered franchise quarterbacks. :coffee:

topscribe
05-30-2011, 06:02 PM
No it's not. Everyone of those quarterbacks are considered franchise quarterbacks. :coffee:

I understand that. However, during his first 11 games, Orton ranked #6 among
QBs. Now, he might rank under those listed, or he might rank somewhere in that
pack (under the top tier or Manning, Brady, and Brees, of course). I am eager to
see how he does this year, assuming he starts. If he did that last year with an
awful running game and defense, I don't know why he couldn't improve on that,
assuming the running game and defense also improve . . .

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 06:21 PM
No it's not. Everyone of those quarterbacks are considered franchise quarterbacks. :coffee:

Ortons probably the best Qb not considered a franchise guy.....:coffee:

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 06:28 PM
Ortons probably the best Qb not considered a franchise guy.....:coffee:

As I said I think he's in the 2nd tier of quarterback.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 06:42 PM
As I said I think he's in the 2nd tier of quarterback.

Close to the top of the 2nd teir?

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 06:45 PM
Close to the top of the 2nd teir?

If that's where you think he belongs. I'm trying be a smartass. If that's where you would put him ok. I respect that.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 06:48 PM
If that's where you think he belongs. I'm trying be a smartass. If that's where you would put him ok. I respect that.

Im asking you. I dont ask loaded questions. Its our team we're talking about. What say you?

TXBRONC
05-30-2011, 07:00 PM
Im asking you. I dont ask loaded questions. Its our team we're talking about. What say you?

I would put him right about the middle 15 or so.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 07:18 PM
:lol:


Ortons better than most of the starters in the NFL last year. Please Stud, since starting NFL Qbs grow on trees, make a list of all the Qbs that are better than Orton so we can laugh at it.

As requested: THESE ARE NOT IN ORDER, JUST NAMED.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Jay Cutler
Rex Grossman (led the Bears to a Super Bowl instead of Kyle)
Mark Sanchez
Joe Flacco
Mike Vick
Drew Brees
Matt Ryan
Phillip Rivers
Sam Bradford (punked Orton in Denver as a rookie)
Tim Tebow (is AT LEAST as good, can do so much more on the field)
Jon Kitna
Tony Romo
Matt Schaub
Matt Cassel (did something Orton still hasn't, start a playoff game)
Matt Stafford (if he's on the field)
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning
Carson Palmer
Big Ben

Guys on about the same level...

Shaun Hill
David Garrard
Josh Freeman (much more upside)
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Donovan McNabb

It is my opinion that Oton could start for the following as a short term solution:

Oakland
Arizona
Tennessee (depends on Locker's development)
Minnesota
San Francisco
Carolina (depends on cheaters development)
Seattle (depends on Whitehurst's development)

Any of the above-named teams would simply be a TEMPORARY gig for Orton as he will inevitably become an NFL backup once he has bombed out again in a new city. You only get so many chances before teams put you in a category as a player. He simply lacks the ability, leadership, and playmaking ability of a legit NFL starting QB to be a longterm solution.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 09:02 PM
Guys on about the same level...

Shaun Hill
David Garrard
Josh Freeman (much more upside)
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Donovan McNabb

.

Thats hilarious.

Shaul Hill is the same caliber as Donovan McNabb.......:lol:

Shaun Hills nothing in the NFL.

Garrard isnt nearly as good a passer as Orton. Not even close.

Freeman is better and much more sought after because he definitly has the potential to be a franchise QB.

Fitzpatrick had one decent year on a pretty bad Bills team. Orton is much more sought after than him.

Mcnabb is old but is a great player. Teams probably want him more than Orton.

Hes top 15 to me, with the slight chance of cracking the top ten in passing in a couple areas. He will never be elite. But he will help teams win games if he has some help around him.

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 09:04 PM
Cutler being the third person he thought of and Grossman the fourth, is all I need to know...

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 09:17 PM
Cutler being the third person he thought of and Grossman the fourth, is all I need to know...

Hes on a campaign to destory Orton since all Broncos fans thought he was the next Elway. . . .

atwater27
05-30-2011, 09:20 PM
I would have not included Sanchez (HUGELY overrated), Grossman (What?!), Tebow and Kitna on that list. Cutler is a better QB hands down. Anyone who doesn't see that needs intervention.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 09:21 PM
Thats hilarious.

Shaul Hill is the same caliber as Donovan McNabb.......:lol:

Shaun Hills nothing in the NFL.

Garrard isnt nearly as good a passer as Orton. Not even close.

Freeman is better and much more sought after because he definitly has the potential to be a franchise QB.

Fitzpatrick had one decent year on a pretty bad Bills team. Orton is much more sought after than him.

Mcnabb is old but is a great player. Teams probably want him more than Orton.

Hes top 15 to me, with the slight chance of cracking the top ten in passing in a couple areas. He will never be elite. But he will help teams win games if he has some help around him.

I never said Garrard was a better passer than Orton, I said he is about the same level of QB as Orton.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 09:22 PM
Cutler being the third person he thought of and Grossman the fourth, is all I need to know...

I wasn't ranking them dude, just listing them.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 09:23 PM
I would have not included Sanchez (HUGELY overrated), Grossman (What?!), Tebow and Kitna on that list. Cutler is a better QB hands down. Anyone who doesn't see that needs intervention.

Sanchez had a good season and he is a pretty clutch QB. I'd much rather have him than Orton with the game on the line.

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 09:26 PM
I didn't rank the QBs, I just listed ALL the QBs I think are better players than Orton. He didn't ask me to rank the QBs 1-32, just name QBs that were better than Kyle.

I could care less what you need to know, it's reading comprehension that matters.

Yes, reading comprehension is it, isn't it.

I was the person who asked for 32 quarterbacks. I got 25, and some of them are beyond laughable. (Rex Grossman? Jon Kitna?)

It was I who noted that you thought of Cutler third and Grossman fourth. My reading comprehension isn't having any problems. You listed them third and fourth, and I inferred an interesting possible conclusion.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 09:30 PM
Yes, reading comprehension is it, isn't it.

I was the person who asked for 32 quarterbacks. I got 25, and some of them are beyond laughable. (Rex Grossman? Jon Kitna?)

It was I who noted that you thought of Cutler third and Grossman fourth. My reading comprehension isn't having any problems. You listed them third and fourth, and I inferred an interesting possible conclusion.

Grossman looked solid this year in his limited time playing, and don't forget he led the same Bears team that Orton did nothing with to a Super Bowl. He makes too many mistakes but he is a much better scoring QB than Orton.

Jon Kitna too had a very good season filling in for Tony Romo, and he had a good stint with the Bengals, and before that was a starter for the SeaKitties, and he also started for the Lions and had pretty good years including dropping 40+ on us in a game a few years back. Orton will be LUCKY to end up on Kitna's level.

Cutler is by NO MEANS the 3rd ranked QB in the NFL by my standards :lol:. More like top 15-20. Physically he's top 3, mentally he's bottom 10. Put it together and you're somewhere in the middle, but MUCH better than Orton.

Hope that clears it up and gives you some good laughs, I aim to amuse. :elefant:

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 09:33 PM
Grossman looked solid this year in his limited time playing, and don't forget he led the same Bears team that Orton did nothing with to a Super Bowl. He makes too many mistakes but he is a much better scoring QB than Orton.

Jon Kitna too had a very good season filling in for Tony Romo, and he had a good stint with the Bengals, and before that was a starter for the SeaKitties, and he also started for the Lions and had pretty good years including dropping 40+ on us in a game a few years back. Orton will be LUCKY to end up on Kitna's level.

Cutler is by NO MEANS the 3rd ranked QB in the NFL by my standards :lol:. More like top 15-20. Physically he's top 3, mentally he's bottom 10. Put it together and you're somewhere in the middle, but MUCH better than Orton.

Hope that clears it up and gives you some good laughs, I aim to amuse. :elefant:

Grossman is clearly not superior to Orton. Jon Kitna is clearly not superior to Orton.

Why in the world would Cutler and Grossman be the third and fourth people you thought of? What could have possibly put them higher in your mind than clearly better quarterbacks?

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 09:52 PM
Grossman looked solid this year in his limited time playing, and don't forget he led the same Bears team that Orton did nothing with to a Super Bowl. He makes too many mistakes but he is a much better scoring QB than Orton.

Jon Kitna too had a very good season filling in for Tony Romo, and he had a good stint with the Bengals, and before that was a starter for the SeaKitties, and he also started for the Lions and had pretty good years including dropping 40+ on us in a game a few years back. Orton will be LUCKY to end up on Kitna's level.

Cutler is by NO MEANS the 3rd ranked QB in the NFL by my standards :lol:. More like top 15-20. Physically he's top 3, mentally he's bottom 10. Put it together and you're somewhere in the middle, but MUCH better than Orton.

Hope that clears it up and gives you some good laughs, I aim to amuse. :elefant:

You sure do amuse, BS, you sure do.....

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 09:58 PM
Cutler being the third person he thought of and Grossman the fourth, is all I need to know...
Mark sanchez? Omg!
Eli manning? For somebody that harps on ortons 3rd down% 's, somebody didn't look very close.

Just tells me the list was uninformed, bias (grass is always greener....) and not well thought out.
Sam bradford? I love him but.........

:laugh:

Orton's 8-12, imho. Below elite/above avg.

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 10:00 PM
I wasn't ranking them dude, just listing them.
Freudian slip? ;)

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 10:06 PM
Sanchez had a good season and he is a pretty clutch QB. I'd much rather have him than Orton with the game on the line.
Top5 run game/defense.
And yet:
54.8% compl.
17td/13int
Yep....heck of a season. Lol

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 10:10 PM
Grossman is clearly not superior to Orton. Jon Kitna is clearly not superior to Orton.

Why in the world would Cutler and Grossman be the third and fourth people you thought of? What could have possibly put them higher in your mind than clearly better quarterbacks?

I thought of Cutler because he was a Bronco and was in the NFC Championship game this year with Orton's old team. I thought of Grossman because he was the better QB in Chicago when he and Orton shared time, and he too did something Orton couldn't, start a playoff game.

As far as Jon Kitna "clearly" not being as good as Orton, just THIS YEAR alone he had a higher rating than Orton and completed a full 7% higher of his passes. Kitna threw for 4,000 + yards twice with the freaking Lions, and had a Pro Bowl year with the Bengals in 2003. But, most importantly, with Kitna in the game Dallas was around 40% on 3rd down this year, while Orton was around 31% with the Broncos. Oh, and Dallas only rushed for 200 more yards this season than the Broncos did. Like I said, Orton will be LUCKY to have the success in his career that Jon Kitna has, and for as long.

Grossman may or may not be as good as Orton is NOW, we won't know until he plays a full season, but he certainly was in Chicago.

Orton's numbers this year weren't even that much better than average, and when it mattered they were below average. Most importantly, Orton limits the offense in ways the others don't, and that matters.

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 10:10 PM
Freudian slip? ;)

No :laugh:

BroncoStud
05-30-2011, 10:11 PM
Top5 run game/defense.
And yet:
54.8% compl.
17td/13int
Yep....heck of a season. Lol

And yet with the game on the line Sanchez makes plays, Orton got to witness that firsthand. :lol:

rcsodak
05-30-2011, 10:14 PM
I thought of Cutler because he was a Bronco and was in the NFC Championship game this year with Orton's old team. I thought of Grossman because he was the better QB in Chicago when he and Orton shared time, and he too did something Orton couldn't, start a playoff game.

As far as Jon Kitna "clearly" not being as good as Orton, just THIS YEAR alone he had a higher rating than Orton and completed a full 7% higher of his passes. Kitna threw for 4,000 + yards twice with the freaking Lions, and had a Pro Bowl year with the Bengals in 2003. But, most importantly, with Kitna in the game Dallas was around 40% on 3rd down this year, while Orton was around 31% with the Broncos. Oh, and Dallas only rushed for 200 more yards this season than the Broncos did. Like I said, Orton will be LUCKY to have the success in his career that Jon Kitna has, and for as long.

Grossman may or may not be as good as Orton is NOW, we won't know until he plays a full season, but he certainly was in Chicago.

Orton's numbers this year weren't even that much better than average, and when it mattered they were below average. Most importantly, Orton limits the offense in ways the others don't, and that matters.

Ortons numbers weren't avg?

WTH? :laugh:

MOtorboat
05-30-2011, 10:16 PM
I thought of Cutler because he was a Bronco and was in the NFC Championship game this year with Orton's old team. I thought of Grossman because he was the better QB in Chicago when he and Orton shared time, and he too did something Orton couldn't, start a playoff game.

As far as Jon Kitna "clearly" not being as good as Orton, just THIS YEAR alone he had a higher rating than Orton and completed a full 7% higher of his passes. Kitna threw for 4,000 + yards twice with the freaking Lions, and had a Pro Bowl year with the Bengals in 2003. But, most importantly, with Kitna in the game Dallas was around 40% on 3rd down this year, while Orton was around 31% with the Broncos. Oh, and Dallas only rushed for 200 more yards this season than the Broncos did. Like I said, Orton will be LUCKY to have the success in his career that Jon Kitna has, and for as long.

Grossman may or may not be as good as Orton is NOW, we won't know until he plays a full season, but he certainly was in Chicago.

Orton's numbers this year weren't even that much better than average, and when it mattered they were below average. Most importantly, Orton limits the offense in ways the others don't, and that matters.

Orton was the starting quarterback nearly the entire year, getting them to the playoffs and Lovie benched him. No wonder they lost the Super Bowl. Five years ago.

Kitna's stats before Orton was even drafted were better. Solid argument.

Clearly, Orton is better now.

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 10:24 PM
I don't get this need to list the QBs that are better than Orton because I think the "he shouldn't be a starter" is taken too literally. That, or its just a bit overboard.

But the NFL is a "have or have not" league. You either have your franchise/stud QB, or you are looking for him. Thats it, thats the only two choices.

Doesn't matter if there are 15,16,12, or 20 QBs that are better than Kyle. We all know that he isn't the QB of our future, so that puts us in the "have not" category. We are the "have-nots."

If you aren't the stud QB, you are just holding a spot until that team gets a chance to replace you. Does it really matter if your QB is 15th, 20th, or 25th on the list? No. Because everyone of those QBs are on teams that are looking to replace them with someone better.

Whether there are just 16 QBs or 25 QBs that are better than Orton, we STILL drafted at #2. Anyone here NOT believe we would have drafted a QB this year had we not already had Tebow? Of course we would have. We are one of the "have-nots."

Anyone really think that if Tebow is only the 23rd Best QB .. or 25th... that we lose that much? That we lose enough to hold a spot and give up a draft choice to keep Orton? Noo way. Because no matter what, we are looking to replace Orton. Eithe with Tebow, or with someone we draft next year.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 10:26 PM
I thought of Cutler because he was a Bronco and was in the NFC Championship game this year with Orton's old team. I thought of Grossman because he was the better QB in Chicago when he and Orton shared time, and he too did something Orton couldn't, start a playoff game.

As far as Jon Kitna "clearly" not being as good as Orton, just THIS YEAR alone he had a higher rating than Orton and completed a full 7% higher of his passes. Kitna threw for 4,000 + yards twice with the freaking Lions, and had a Pro Bowl year with the Bengals in 2003. But, most importantly, with Kitna in the game Dallas was around 40% on 3rd down this year, while Orton was around 31% with the Broncos. Oh, and Dallas only rushed for 200 more yards this season than the Broncos did. Like I said, Orton will be LUCKY to have the success in his career that Jon Kitna has, and for as long.

Grossman may or may not be as good as Orton is NOW, we won't know until he plays a full season, but he certainly was in Chicago.

Orton's numbers this year weren't even that much better than average, and when it mattered they were below average. Most importantly, Orton limits the offense in ways the others don't, and that matters.

Only to a hater like yourself did Orton perform below average in the most important categories.

3rd down % is more a relection of the entire passing offense then the Qb alone. Its a TEAM stat and banging on Orton for it all is getting old....


You keep harping on the teams failure and placing Orton at the center of it when he was by far one of the best players on offense (which isnt saying much, but still).

Theres no changing your mind because the haterade you have already drank. And for the most part, your list was laughable.

BroncoJoe
05-30-2011, 10:31 PM
Orton was the starting quarterback nearly the entire year, getting them to the playoffs and Lovie benched him. No wonder they lost the Super Bowl. Five years ago.

Kitna's stats before Orton was even drafted were better. Solid argument.

Clearly, Orton is better now.

Are you talking about two different seasons? Because Orton didn't take a snap IIRC during their SB year.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 10:32 PM
I don't get this need to list the QBs that are better than Orton because I think the "he shouldn't be a starter" is taken too literally. That, or its just a bit overboard.

But the NFL is a "have or have not" league. You either have your franchise/stud QB, or you are looking for him. Thats it, thats the only two choices.

Doesn't matter if there are 15,16,12, or 20 QBs that are better than Kyle. We all know that he isn't the QB of our future, so that puts us in the "have not" category. We are the "have-nots."

If you aren't the stud QB, you are just holding a spot until that team gets a chance to replace you. Does it really matter if your QB is 15th, 20th, or 25th on the list? No. Because everyone of those QBs are on teams that are looking to replace them with someone better.

Whether there are just 16 QBs or 25 QBs that are better than Orton, we STILL drafted at #2. Anyone here NOT believe we would have drafted a QB this year had we not already had Tebow? Of course we would have. We are one of the "have-nots."

Anyone really think that if Tebow is only the 23rd Best QB .. or 25th... that we lose that much? That we lose enough to hold a spot and give up a draft choice to keep Orton? Noo way. Because no matter what, we are looking to replace Orton. Eithe with Tebow, or with someone we draft next year.

Are the Minnasota Vikings last year telling themselves, "That Brett Fave fellas our franchise guy!"

Teams go after quality Qbs in there twilight to contend for championships....Not sure you idea of the NFL is correct.

Franchise Qbs are looked for at all times, but teams dont just hand over quality Qbs because they arent considered "franchise players".

Orton has value to the NFL and to the Broncos.

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 10:33 PM
Only to a hater like yourself did Orton perform below average in the most important categories.

3rd down % is more a relection of the entire passing offense then the Qb alone. Its a TEAM stat and banging on Orton for it all is getting old....


You keep harping on the teams failure and placing Orton at the center of it when he was by far one of the best players on offense (which isnt saying much, but still).

Theres no changing your mind because the haterade you have already drank. And for the most part, your list was laughable.

Thats horse crap. The only ones that Do NOT know that 3rd downs are the "money downs" are those trying to defend a QB that has been HORRIBLE at them their entire career. EVERY coach and player talks about just how important 3rd downs are.. and Orton is TERRIBLE on those... TERRRIBLE. Yet all you want to do is defend it, and if people don't see it your way, you want to label them a "hater." Absurd. Ridiculous. Asinine.

How many times did Orton have the ball at the end of the game with a chance to tie and or win the game with the ball in HIS hands this last season? 6. How many times did he accomplish said chance to tie or win? 1. He's just flat out BAD in the tough situations.... period.

He had more passing attempts than everyone in the NFL, put up a ton of yards.. and you guys want to brag about how good he was.. but want to ignore looking at when he absolutely FAILS at the most important parts of the game. The parts of the game that RELY on the QB the most.

But yeah.. thats just "hatred" instead of seeing the reality of the situation. Unlike you, who's seeing everything Soooo unbiased and clear . :coffee:

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 10:35 PM
Are the Minnasota Vikings last year telling themselves, "That Brett Fave fellas our franchise guy!"

Teams go after quality Qbs in there twilight to contend for championships....Not sure you idea of the NFL is correct.

Franchise Qbs are looked for at all times, but teams dont just hand over quality Qbs because they arent considered "franchise players".

Orton has value to the NFL and to the Broncos.

yes.. he has value to trade away. Thats what I've been saying.

chazoe60
05-30-2011, 10:36 PM
I don't get this need to list the QBs that are better than Orton because I think the "he shouldn't be a starter" is taken too literally. That, or its just a bit overboard.

But the NFL is a "have or have not" league. You either have your franchise/stud QB, or you are looking for him. Thats it, thats the only two choices.

Doesn't matter if there are 15,16,12, or 20 QBs that are better than Kyle. We all know that he isn't the QB of our future, so that puts us in the "have not" category. We are the "have-nots."

If you aren't the stud QB, you are just holding a spot until that team gets a chance to replace you. Does it really matter if your QB is 15th, 20th, or 25th on the list? No. Because everyone of those QBs are on teams that are looking to replace them with someone better.

Whether there are just 16 QBs or 25 QBs that are better than Orton, we STILL drafted at #2. Anyone here NOT believe we would have drafted a QB this year had we not already had Tebow? Of course we would have. We are one of the "have-nots."

Anyone really think that if Tebow is only the 23rd Best QB .. or 25th... that we lose that much? That we lose enough to hold a spot and give up a draft choice to keep Orton? Noo way. Because no matter what, we are looking to replace Orton. Eithe with Tebow, or with someone we draft next year.

I absolutely agree with this post.

It's not so much that I think Orton is an awful QB it's more that I feel he has absolutely no long term future with our team and sticking with him seems like a tremendous waste of time in my opinion.

He has never struck me as a guy you build a team around, not in Chicago and definitely not after what I call a two year stint of failure with us. I can't imagine Elway looks at game film and sees the three and outs and the failure 5 times out of 6 with the game on the line and says to himself "that's the guy we're sticking with". I hate spinning our wheels with a guy who isn't going to be here long term.

And yes there is some miniscule chance of him signing a long term extension, but that chance seems so absolutely small to me. Look at the things Elway has said and it doesn't look like there is much chance at all of Orton being looked at as the future of this team.

Couple the lame duck feeling Orton has with what I see (just how I see the games with my own eyes) as a boring style of play that offers absolutely nothing in terms of hope at the end of games and I just feel ill with the thought of another year of Orton.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 10:37 PM
Orton was the starting quarterback nearly the entire year, getting them to the playoffs and Lovie benched him. No wonder they lost the Super Bowl. Five years ago.

Kitna's stats before Orton was even drafted were better. Solid argument.

Clearly, Orton is better now.

Actually, according to what I was able to uncover, it seemed that Jerry Angelo
was who wanted Orton benched in favor of Grossman. That was over Lovie's
desire to keep Orton in the competition for starting position, but Angelo was
more concerned about his 1st round investment in Grossman.

So Orton was relegated to the bench for two years. When he finally was
allowed to compete in 2008, he won and kept the starting job, even after he
suffered his high ankle sprain in the second Detroit game in the 9th week.
Grossman started the 10th week against Tennessee, then Orton took the job
back in the 11th week and never surrendered it.

Orton was better with a high ankle sprain than Grossman was healthy . . .

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 10:41 PM
Thats horse crap. The only ones that Do NOT know that 3rd downs are the "money downs" are those trying to defend a QB that has been HORRIBLE at them their entire career. EVERY coach and player talks about just how important 3rd downs are.. and Orton is TERRIBLE on those... TERRRIBLE. Yet all you want to do is defend it, and if people don't see it your way, you want to label them a "hater." Absurd. Ridiculous. Asinine.

How many times did Orton have the ball at the end of the game with a chance to tie and or win the game with the ball in HIS hands this last season? 6. How many times did he accomplish said chance to tie or win? 1. He's just flat out BAD in the tough situations.... period.

He had more passing attempts than everyone in the NFL, put up a ton of yards.. and you guys want to brag about how good he was.. but want to ignore looking at when he absolutely FAILS at the most important parts of the game. The parts of the game that RELY on the QB the most.

But yeah.. thats just "hatred" instead of seeing the reality of the situation. Unlike you, who's seeing everything Soooo unbiased and clear . :coffee:

Still a TEAM stat, Rav. Not that you care, beacause to you its all Ortons fault.

chazoe60
05-30-2011, 10:41 PM
Orton is better than Grossman and Kitna, well paint me excited.

horsepig
05-30-2011, 10:44 PM
Agree with this guy's opinion. Tebow's past doesn't mean a damn thing in the NFL. He has a lot to over-come, and the way he won in College will most likely not work in the NFL.

He also touched on something I've said for years. Many times we see a back-up come in, whether that be for a game or two or for many games at the end of a year... and perform FANTASTICALLY. Its automatically assumed taht the guy is ready to become a full-time starter, and moves on with a big contract....only to fall on his face.

Its MUCH MUCH easier to come off the bench as the back-up (even ifyou are the starter for the injured QB) than it is to be "the man" and come in and play. You are given more responsibility, and expected....EXPECTED.. to win. No matter what.

As the back-up, you ALWAYS have that "well, he's the back-up" defense to always fall on. Not when you are the starter.

Tebow has a lot to prove in the NFL, thats for certain. I'm very skeptical, but because its the Broncos, I'm hopeful.

Just who are you referring to RAV? Bart Bratkowski, ....uhhh, maybe Kurt Warner?

Surely you're not referring to Chris Simms?

Maybe Caleb Haney from the Bears, 3'rd stringer?

Cassell? Whoevger the faiders' QB is ?

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 10:45 PM
Still a TEAM stat, Rav. Not that you care, beacause to you its all Ortons fault.

They are ALL team stats, NCB. Quit picking and choosing as to when you want to apply the label. There must be more to than just 'the team' if you don't all the QBs having such a FAILING that Orton does.

Not that you care, because all you want to do is take all the blame off of Orton.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 10:47 PM
yes.. he has value to trade away. Thats what I've been saying.

Right because Tebow or Quinn gives the Broncos the best chance to win next year, without a doubt. As well as the year after that.

Im so happy your sure about those guys because now the Broncos are set for 15+ years. :salute:



I absolutely agree with this post.

It's not so much that I think Orton is an awful QB it's more that I feel he has absolutely no long term future with our team and sticking with him seems like a tremendous waste of time in my opinion.

He has never struck me as a guy you build a team around, not in Chicago and definitely not after what I call a two year stint of failure with us. I can't imagine Elway looks at game film and sees the three and outs and the failure 5 times out of 6 with the game on the line and says to himself "that's the guy we're sticking with". I hate spinning our wheels with a guy who isn't going to be here long term.

And yes there is some miniscule chance of him signing a long term extension, but that chance seems so absolutely small to me. Look at the things Elway has said and it doesn't look like there is much chance at all of Orton being looked at as the future of this team.

Couple the lame duck feeling Orton has with what I see (just how I see the games with my own eyes) as a boring style of play that offers absolutely nothing in terms of hope at the end of games and I just feel ill with the thought of another year of Orton.

How would sticking with Orton be a bad idea when there are no proven options available?

You guys act like Tebow and Quinn are going to be answers for the Broncos when often the answers forced and not good ones. Just because you have Qbs with potential doesnt mean you put all you eggs in one basket and hope it works.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 10:52 PM
They are ALL team stats, NCB. Quit picking and choosing as to when you want to apply the label. There must be more to than just 'the team' if you don't all the QBs having such a FAILING that Orton does.

Not that you care, because all you want to do is take all the blame off of Orton.

3rd down is a TEAM stat and I dont care if you cant understand that and decipher them from individual stats. I remember watching my first game.

topscribe
05-30-2011, 10:55 PM
Actually, according to what I was able to uncover, it seemed that Jerry Angelo
was who wanted Orton benched in favor of Grossman. That was over Lovie's
desire to keep Orton in the competition for starting position, but Angelo was
more concerned about his 1st round investment in Grossman.

So Orton was relegated to the bench for two years. When he finally was
allowed to compete in 2008, he won and kept the starting job, even after he
suffered his high ankle sprain in the second Detroit game in the 9th week.
Grossman started the 10th week against Tennessee, then Orton took the job
back in the 11th week and never surrendered it.

Orton was better with a high ankle sprain than Grossman was healthy . . .

-----

BTW, here are Orton's 2008 stats through the 7th game, before his high ankle
sprain: 238 yards/game, 10 TDs, 4 INTs, 62.2% comp, 7.26 YPA, 91.4 QBR.

Contrast that with last year through 11 games, before his rib injuries: 281 yds,
20 TDs, 6 INTs, 61.8% comp, 7.85 YPA, 96.0 QBR.

A HEALTHY Kyle Orton looks pretty good from here . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 10:55 PM
Right because Tebow or Quinn gives the Broncos the best chance to win next year, without a doubt. As well as the year after that.

I've said many times that I don't know if Tebow is the answer, and that I actually believe he will not be a good NFL QB down the road.

But either way, I know Orton absolutely is NOT the future. Period. I don't think we lose much by going with some other average QB down the road. If Tebow isn't the answer, I expect us to be drafting a high-round QB anyway. Either way, Orton will be gone, and we will be moving on.... with not much loss because we don't have Kyle Orton. Teams are able to easily replace Kyle Orton.

horsepig
05-30-2011, 10:57 PM
Grossman is clearly not superior to Orton. Jon Kitna is clearly not superior to Orton.

Why in the world would Cutler and Grossman be the third and fourth people you thought of? What could have possibly put them higher in your mind than clearly better quarterbacks?

Who really gives a shit?

Ravage!!!
05-30-2011, 10:58 PM
3rd down is a TEAM stat and I dont care if you cant understand that and decipher them from individual stats. I remember watching my first game.

You remember watching your first game? Thats brilliant. That must be the reason you are showing such young age in your discussion.

EVERY stat is a TEAM stat if you want to call this one. Its pretty silly to state that his ONE is a "team" stat. I don't care if you can't seem to grasp this pretty simple concept.

But the reality is, its not a coincidence that teams that have better QBs, have better 3rd down conversion rates. It goes hand-n-hand.

horsepig
05-30-2011, 10:59 PM
You can actually put together a pretty well thought out argument, RAV.

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 11:00 PM
I've said many times that I don't know if Tebow is the answer, and that I actually believe he will not be a good NFL QB down the road.

But either way, I know Orton absolutely is NOT the future. Period. I don't think we lose much by going with some other average QB down the road. If Tebow isn't the answer, I expect us to be drafting a high-round QB anyway. Either way, Orton will be gone, and we will be moving on.... with not much loss because we don't have Kyle Orton. Teams are able to easily replace Kyle Orton.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/jerboski/misc/you_mad_5.jpg

NorCalBronco7
05-30-2011, 11:07 PM
You remember watching your first game? Thats brilliant. That must be the reason you are showing such young age in your discussion.

EVERY stat is a TEAM stat if you want to call this one. Its pretty silly to state that his ONE is a "team" stat. I don't care if you can't seem to grasp this pretty simple concept.

But the reality is, its not a coincidence that teams that have better QBs, have better 3rd down conversion rates. It goes hand-n-hand.

Whoa there....

HammeredOut
05-30-2011, 11:52 PM
As requested: THESE ARE NOT IN ORDER, JUST NAMED.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Jay Cutler
Rex Grossman (led the Bears to a Super Bowl instead of Kyle)
Mark Sanchez
Joe Flacco
Mike Vick
Drew Brees
Matt Ryan
Phillip Rivers
Sam Bradford (punked Orton in Denver as a rookie)
Tim Tebow (is AT LEAST as good, can do so much more on the field)
Jon Kitna
Tony Romo
Matt Schaub
Matt Cassel (did something Orton still hasn't, start a playoff game)
Matt Stafford (if he's on the field)
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning
Carson Palmer
Big Ben

Guys on about the same level...

Shaun Hill
David Garrard
Josh Freeman (much more upside)
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Donovan McNabb

It is my opinion that Oton could start for the following as a short term solution:

Oakland
Arizona
Tennessee (depends on Locker's development)
Minnesota
San Francisco
Carolina (depends on cheaters development)
Seattle (depends on Whitehurst's development)

Any of the above-named teams would simply be a TEMPORARY gig for Orton as he will inevitably become an NFL backup once he has bombed out again in a new city. You only get so many chances before teams put you in a category as a player. He simply lacks the ability, leadership, and playmaking ability of a legit NFL starting QB to be a longterm solution.

lol...

are you watching arena ball?? read a stats sheet sometime. That will tell you how a player rates based on other stats with the same player types.

In english. QB's are compared to other QB's based on stats. Just like RB's get compared to other RB's base on stats.

So yards per game, if Orton was 3rd in the league at 281. Other QB's would be compared in that manner. Just the same if the 3rd rated RB in the League, Jamal Charles, is just as effective in terms of yards ranked 3rd in the league with 91 yards per game.

Ravage!!!
05-31-2011, 12:05 AM
Only fantasy football players use stats alone to 'rank' QBs. Thats baseball.

Football is not a stats-based sport. Heck, sacks weren't even kept track of for many many years, and tackles to this day aren't an official stat. To think that stats tell the entire story is being blind.

Thats why there are many players that are not in the HoF, despite their numbers.... because baseball goes by numbers alone.

Poet
05-31-2011, 12:19 AM
First off, Grossman is god awful.

If anything, his ability to lose games based on his awful decision making pretty much is the biggest reason why he is a truly AWFUL quarterback.

Orton is somewhere between 10-15.

The issue with him is his lack of mobility (to an extreme) and lack of an ability to make plays.

He falls into the mold of a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or to balance out the scale, a Drew Bledsoe or Carson Palmer in that he really, REALLY needs to be protected. If the pass rush is breathing up his neck it's a wrap for Orton.

Out of those guys in their prime, he lacks their arm and their ability to break the game open.

I view him as a Matt Schuab, or to a lesser extent, Tony Romo, or, and this is just sort of to give a correct perspective to some of the posters here, a Jay Cutler.

Orton can put up some numbers, he can win some games on his arm, but he's not that guy who is almost always going to put up those all around good numbers and win a lot of games on their arm.

That can change, it has for, both ways, for a long time. Some guys gain it over the years and some guys lose it.

Ravage!!!
05-31-2011, 12:24 AM
I personally would not put him in the top 10-15, this writer (obviously his own opinion and it doesn't make it "right") ranks him in group D.

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 02:34 AM
Orton was the starting quarterback nearly the entire year, getting them to the playoffs and Lovie benched him. No wonder they lost the Super Bowl. Five years ago.

Kitna's stats before Orton was even drafted were better. Solid argument.

Clearly, Orton is better now.

Kitna was better, THIS YEAR. Clearly you didn't watch much football. :lol:

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 02:38 AM
Orton was the starting quarterback nearly the entire year, getting them to the playoffs and Lovie benched him. No wonder they lost the Super Bowl. Five years ago.

Kitna's stats before Orton was even drafted were better. Solid argument.

Clearly, Orton is better now.

You mean the year that Grossman started all 16 games for the Bears and led them to the Super Bowl? It might actually help you in this debate to actually know what happened... :lol:

Grossman was better.

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 02:40 AM
Only to a hater like yourself did Orton perform below average in the most important categories.

3rd down % is more a relection of the entire passing offense then the Qb alone. Its a TEAM stat and banging on Orton for it all is getting old....


You keep harping on the teams failure and placing Orton at the center of it when he was by far one of the best players on offense (which isnt saying much, but still).

Theres no changing your mind because the haterade you have already drank. And for the most part, your list was laughable.

So Orton is horrid on 3rd down and in the redzone his entire career yet it is everyone elses fault, meanwhile Cutler-led offenses convert on 40+% of their 3rd downs, go 8-8 and make it to NFC Championships... I know, those pesky coincidences... How DARE they get in the way of FACT. :laugh::laugh:

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 02:42 AM
BTW, here are Orton's 2008 stats through the 7th game, before his high ankle
sprain: 238 yards/game, 10 TDs, 4 INTs, 62.2% comp, 7.26 YPA, 91.4 QBR.

Contrast that with last year through 11 games, before his rib injuries: 281 yds,
20 TDs, 6 INTs, 61.8% comp, 7.85 YPA, 96.0 QBR.

A HEALTHY Kyle Orton looks pretty good from here . . .

-----

Give us COMPLETE stats, don't cherry-pick. And if Kyle can't complete a season healthy whose fault is that? He needs to spend more time in the gym training, lifting, and doing cardio.

It's amazing how you cherry-pick and pass it off as credibility. The NFL season is 16 games, wouldn't it be IDEAL if each player could pick and choose which ones they wanted to count... That would be AWESOME! :elefant:

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 02:46 AM
lol...

are you watching arena ball?? read a stats sheet sometime. That will tell you how a player rates based on other stats with the same player types.

In english. QB's are compared to other QB's based on stats. Just like RB's get compared to other RB's base on stats.

So yards per game, if Orton was 3rd in the league at 281. Other QB's would be compared in that manner. Just the same if the 3rd rated RB in the League, Jamal Charles, is just as effective in terms of yards ranked 3rd in the league with 91 yards per game.

Why don't you go check Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Len Dawson's, or Big Ben's "statsheets" and tell me that QBs are compared by stats on paper.

Hell, Orton wasn't even really above average in most categories this year in stats, as I have PROVEN in this very forum several times. 2 minutes to go, game on the line, Orton is somewhere in the bottom 10 QBs that I would want starting for my team, hoping to get the win.

Plain and simple, he will be LUCKY to end up like Jon Kitna.

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 06:22 AM
Are you talking about two different seasons? Because Orton didn't take a snap IIRC during their SB year.

He's talking about '05 which was Orton's rookie season.

Juriga72
05-31-2011, 06:29 AM
He's talking about '05 which was Orton's rookie season.

Yes... Kyle "Led" the Bears with 9 whole touchdowns that year.......

his run g ame and defense carried him.

2005 (Kyle)-Bears #25 scoring

2006-(Rex) Bears #8 scoring


go figure why they got to the Super Bowl

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 06:41 AM
First off, Grossman is god awful.

If anything, his ability to lose games based on his awful decision making pretty much is the biggest reason why he is a truly AWFUL quarterback.

Orton is somewhere between 10-15.

The issue with him is his lack of mobility (to an extreme) and lack of an ability to make plays.

He falls into the mold of a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or to balance out the scale, a Drew Bledsoe or Carson Palmer in that he really, REALLY needs to be protected. If the pass rush is breathing up his neck it's a wrap for Orton.

Out of those guys in their prime, he lacks their arm and their ability to break the game open.

I view him as a Matt Schuab, or to a lesser extent, Tony Romo, or, and this is just sort of to give a correct perspective to some of the posters here, a Jay Cutler.

Orton can put up some numbers, he can win some games on his arm, but he's not that guy who is almost always going to put up those all around good numbers and win a lot of games on their arm.

That can change, it has for, both ways, for a long time. Some guys gain it over the years and some guys lose it.

10-15? I don't think Orton would rank in the top ten. I could see 11-15. I think Mike Klis one of the Denver Post's beat writers said Orton ranks somewhere between about 15-22 or something along those lines. It's also important to note that Klis' reporting on Orton has been pretty supportive over the last two years.

Juriga72
05-31-2011, 07:56 AM
I know Kyle is all world and everything... BUT...LMAO

2005-#3 NFL
2008-#4 NFL
2009-#12 NFL
2010-#7 NFl

ONCE he was barely out of the top 10 in the NFL









In "Total number of punts by a team"

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:01 AM
Welcome, mo. Good question.
I have yet to hear one, TRUE, nfl analyst/coach/player/FO guy say orton is not nfl starter material.

But I CAN and have named them that say he is. Hellsbells, they were asking amongst themselves on sirius last year if he was MVP material.

Let's see an MVP that is not even starter material. Or even top ten. Yep that makes sense.
MVP means most valuable player to those that are so biased and hateful.

Yes he was benched, moreso to see what the rookie could do and to improve fan relations that seemed to be at a very contentious point last year.

NOt even to mention the rib injury.

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 08:12 AM
Orton is/was an MVP? When?

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:13 AM
If we were even close to being a good team then I'd agree Top. I think it would hurt us more to continue to start Orton and wait to evaluate Tim.

I can dig this stand point. Yes we have lots of needs and using an extra draft choice Or two is of more value to it over the long hall.

That is coming from a guy that has supported him.

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:18 AM
First, I don't agree, and neither does Fox, that the Broncos are not close to
being a good team. Both Elway and Fox have stressed they want win now.

-----

Just what do you expect them to say. It is coach speak.

Btw fox is a run first guy (boring).

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:31 AM
Close to the top of the 2nd teir?

Like having a second tier QB is a crime there are lots if teams that would be an upgrade.
I also suspect that some teams will drive up the bidding on him.

jhns
05-31-2011, 08:35 AM
Yes... Kyle "Led" the Bears with 9 whole touchdowns that year.......


Don't forget the 1900 yards he had in 15 games. I always think a QB is carrying his team when he gets 130 yards and .6 TDs per game.

If Orton is so great, why exactly does every one of his coaches work to replace him whenever he starts?

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:41 AM
Grossman looked solid this year in his limited time playing, and don't forget he led the same Bears team that Orton did nothing with to a Super Bowl. He makes too many mistakes but he is a much better scoring QB than Orton.

Cutler is by NO MEANS the 3rd ranked QB in the NFL by my standards :lol:. More like top 15-20. Physically he's top 3, mentally he's bottom 10. Put it together and you're somewhere in the middle, :

Pretty sure that it was Orton that won most if those games on the way to the super blow than Rex did.

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 08:41 AM
Let's see an MVP that is not even starter material. Or even top ten. Yep that makes sense.
MVP means most valuable player to those that are so biased and hateful.

Yes he was benched, moreso to see what the rookie could do and to improve fan relations that seemed to be at a very contentious point last year.

NOt even to mention the rib injury.

According to Kyle there was no injury, just soreness, and he was throwing 70 yards in practice that week just fine - HIS words, not mine.

As far as the MVP (HUH? :laugh::laugh:) goes, Kyle was up for the MVP? He was in the same category as guys like Manning, Rodgers, Brady, who were carrying their teams to playoff contention? :lol:

Throwing for yards in a pass happy offense isn't going to win you an MVP when your offense is punting more than most and your 3rd down conversion and scoring are below average. It just isn't going to happen.

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:44 AM
And yet with the game on the line Sanchez makes plays, Orton got to witness that firsthand. :lol:

The refs gave them that game. I'd even bet you would have been one of the hoard that took that stance.

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 08:45 AM
Pretty sure that it was Orton that won most if those games on the way to the super blow than Rex did.

I'm confused... Grossman started 16 regular season games for the Bears in 2006 when they went to the Super Bowl and played the Colts... Orton didn't win squat, he got benched for being so horrible in 2005...

What are you referring to dude? :confused:

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 08:46 AM
The refs gave them that game. I'd even bet you would have been one of the hoard that took that stance.

I didn't like the call but he DID interfere with the reception... Technically it was a penalty, though I would have liked the refs to let them play with so little time left.

Lonestar
05-31-2011, 08:48 AM
Theres no changing your mind because the haterade you have already drank. And for the most part, your list was laughable.


Well It certainly was BS.

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 08:54 AM
Pretty sure that it was Orton that won most if those games on the way to the super blow than Rex did.

The Bears went to the Super Bowl in '06 and Rex Grossman was starter for the entire season.

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 08:57 AM
I'm confused... Grossman started 16 regular season games for the Bears in 2006 when they went to the Super Bowl and played the Colts... Orton didn't win squat, he got benched for being so horrible in 2005...

What are you referring to dude? :confused:

Some people think that Orton beat out Grossman in '05. That's not the case at all. Grossman was going to be the starter that year but ended up injuried before the season started, so Orton was the starter by default.

HammeredOut
05-31-2011, 09:43 AM
Why don't you go check Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Len Dawson's, or Big Ben's "statsheets" and tell me that QBs are compared by stats on paper.

Hell, Orton wasn't even really above average in most categories this year in stats, as I have PROVEN in this very forum several times. 2 minutes to go, game on the line, Orton is somewhere in the bottom 10 QBs that I would want starting for my team, hoping to get the win.

Plain and simple, he will be LUCKY to end up like Jon Kitna.


For some odd reason, you think Jon Kitna is a good QB, and that he is better then Kyle Orton because your broad statements proves it right. Throw stats out, and not talk about how Dallas is prime run heavy team.

If you know anything about John Elway, you will know that Terrel Davis was carrying the team on his back with 2000 yard seasons on the ground, and Shannon Sharpe was the ultimate 3rd down reciever. Im not sure you understand that it wasn't John Elway who carried the team.

Another thing about Ben Roth, Elway, and Bradford, is they all had some of the most dominate defenses in the league when they won the Superbowls. Pitt had the "steel curtain defense".. "you might have to google it", Elway had the orange crush defense, they were all top 10 defenses in the league at the time. And Roth, has, well, "baby steel curtain defense". Kyle Orton has the "Orange Got Crushed Defense"

You have to remember about Orton, he won us 2 games this season when his rushing game racked up 19 yards total all game, and 64 yards total all game giving No-Show Moreno 24 carries that game.

The Broncos lack playmakers, plain and simple on both sides of the ball.

I hate to bring out these stats, but they are ugly. No-show only ran for 2, first downs all season from his own 20. Also No-show only ran for 34 first downs. So the Broncos on average had about 2.3 first downs a game from No-Show Moreno. No=show Moreno longest play of the season came from a draw play 3rd and long, and brought up his average by a half percentage point. A good running back like Mike Turner will get his team 72 first downs in a season, or about 5 first downs a game. Mike Turner averages 4.8 yards from his own 20 compared to Know-Show Moreno's 2.2 yards a carry from his own 20. Mike Turner has more first downs running on First Down, then No-Show Moreno did in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down combined all season.

No-Show averages 3.3 yards per carry when ahead, compared to Mike Turner who will wear down the clock with 4.6 per carry. When the game is on the line, Mike Turner gets better.

If you have 3rd down conversions all season No=Show was so bad, the coaching staff took him off the field on 3rd down all season except for 4 plays. That shows the confidence in our running game, right about now.

So to get back to an important stat, like 3rd downs, when the running game is non-existant, and your starting running back is averaging half yards per game compared to the leaders, then 3rd down will be a problem. When a team becomes soo 1 demensional, and has no running threat. 3rd down should be a hurting stat. especially when your running game is as bad as No-Show Moreno was this season.

Orton averaged 4.5 per carry last season vs. Moreno who averaged 4.3. So that must mean Orton was better then Moreno and faster and more skilled then Moreno when running the ball. According to the stats right. The longest run of the year came from the QB's not the RBs.

The face of the offense Eddie Royal, Lloyd, Graham, Moreno, and Orton are a big change from Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler. Option B, looks like a real team, while Option A, still needs a playmaker to help on 3rd downs. Cutler could throw it 10 and half feet vertical, and Marshall would get us 3rd downs all season, or Scheffler on the boot, infact it was fun to watch offense because of the skill level. Now we don't have a run game, which i believe is more valuable then passing the ball, and we don't have a RB who can run the ball 3rd down.

topscribe
05-31-2011, 09:59 AM
Some people think that Orton beat out Grossman in '05. That's not the case at all. Grossman was going to be the starter that year but ended up injuried before the season started, so Orton was the starter by default.

Orton was a rookie in 2005. Whom was he supposed to beat out?

Orton did beat out Grossman in 2008, when they were put into real competition,
and Orton kept the job, even after suffering the high ankle sprain. In other
words, Orton was better with the high ankle sprain than Grossman was healthy.

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05-31-2011, 10:07 AM
Pretty sure that it was Orton that won most if those games on the way to the super blow than Rex did.

You're confusing 2005 with 2010. It wasn't Orton who won those games in 2005.
It was that GREAT DEFENSE. Orton had nothing to do with it.

Last year (2010), however, Orton lost all those games alllllllll by himself. That
last place (#32) defense had NOTHING to do with that.

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Ravage!!!
05-31-2011, 10:07 AM
:lol: More high ankle sprains. Is it really hard for people to see that the Bears went to the Super Bowl BEFORE Orton took over as the starter, and nearly went back just 2 years later after he was traded away?

I don't know what some posters would do if it wasn't for all these high-ankle sprains, rib injuries, and boo-boos to make excuses.

Juriga72
05-31-2011, 10:09 AM
Orton was a rookie in 2005. Whom was he supposed to beat out?

Orton did beat out Grossman in 2008, when they were put into real competition,
and Orton kept the job, even after suffering the high ankle sprain. In other
words, Orton was better with the high ankle sprain than Grossman was healthy.

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Really?

WHEN? When Kyle "Led" the Bears to victory with his 46.7 qb rating game?

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 12:05 PM
:lol: More high ankle sprains. Is it really hard for people to see that the Bears went to the Super Bowl BEFORE Orton took over as the starter, and nearly went back just 2 years later after he was traded away?

I don't know what some posters would do if it wasn't for all these high-ankle sprains, rib injuries, and boo-boos to make excuses.

:whoknows:

Juriga72
05-31-2011, 12:35 PM
How hard is it to see that with "Kyle is our quarterback"....

We'll lead the NFL in punts again?

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 12:38 PM
How hard is it to see that with "Kyle is our quarterback"....

We'll lead the NFL in punts again?

Assuming that Orton is the starter and running game is improved we might not be leading the League in punts.

BroncoStud
05-31-2011, 12:40 PM
Orton was a rookie in 2005. Whom was he supposed to beat out?

Orton did beat out Grossman in 2008, when they were put into real competition,
and Orton kept the job, even after suffering the high ankle sprain. In other
words, Orton was better with the high ankle sprain than Grossman was healthy.

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No he wasn't. Grossman came in against the Titans when Orton got an ankle booboo the next week and had a good game, then Orton rushed himself back into the starting lineup so Rex wouldn't have a chance to take his job.

The results were 8 TDs, 8 Ints, and an offensive collapse the second half of the season that resulted in the Bears missing the playoffs, Orton getting traded, and the Bears giving up 1st rounders AND Orton for Jay Cutler, who only 2 years later took them to the NFC Championship.

:laugh:

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05-31-2011, 01:27 PM
Assuming that Orton is the starter and running game is improved we might be leading the League in punts.

:confused: I know you're just making a funny, but did Denver lead the league
in the number of punts last year? (Hint: no) Then how would an improvement in
the running game increase the number of punts?

I'm kind of confused there. Would you care to enlighten me? :confused:

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TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 01:30 PM
:confused: I know you're just making a funny, but did Denver lead the league
in the number of punts last year? (Hint: no) Then how would an improvement in
the running game increase the number of punts?

I'm kind of confused there. Would you care to enlighten me? :confused:

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I meant we might not lead the League in punts.


Assuming that Orton is the starter and running game is improved we might not be leading the League in punts.

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05-31-2011, 01:32 PM
I meant we might not lead the League in punts.

Sorry. I misunderstood. :beer:

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HammeredOut
05-31-2011, 02:06 PM
How hard is it to see that with "Kyle is our quarterback"....

We'll lead the NFL in punts again?

I will agree with that. Because our Starting running back No-Show Moreno only ran for 2 first downs all season from our own 20. And he only gave the team about 2 first downs a game on average. Who's going to convert 3rd downs if, we can't even convert a 1st down, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd down situations.

Juriga72
05-31-2011, 02:09 PM
Assuming that Orton is the starter and running game is improved we might not be leading the League in punts.

Kyle Orton set a record for "NFL starting QB"....

he had the #8 rushing attack and STILL led the Bears to the 3rd MOST punts

TXBRONC
05-31-2011, 02:10 PM
Kyle Orton set a record for "NFL starting QB"....

he had the #8 rushing attack and STILL led the Bears to the 3rd MOST punts

See that was 3rd most not THE MOST. :D