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GEM
05-23-2011, 11:09 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AiHMWqLrmym3z7_j89vraddDubYF?slug=nfp-20110522_nfp_sunday_blitz_7671



Usually, ascensions in an NFL front office are time consuming and deliberate. Everyone knows you don’t go from running a huddle to running a draft meeting.

But John Elway isn’t just anybody. He has some pretty unique qualifications to run the Denver Broncos. And he’s accustomed to going to the front of the line.

“I was the No. 1 recruit going into college,” Elway told me. “I was the No. 1 draft pick coming into the pros. I was always looked at a different way, and spent my time trying to blend in and make people around me realize I’m one of them, no matter where I went in the draft or whatnot. I didn’t come up through the NFL ranks even though I came up as a player through the NFL ranks. A lot of times players don’t get the credit because they didn’t come up through the personnel side or the coaching side.”


Read the rest at the link.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-23-2011, 11:32 AM
For Hall-of-Fame quarterback turned Denver Broncos top executive John Elway, whether his team’s starting QB is Kyle Orton, Tim Tebow or Brady Quinn, he will be judged on wins and losses.

“You look at our quarterback situation,” Elway told the National Football Post. “Bottom line is we have three guys who can play. Kyle has had good numbers, but we haven’t won a lot of football games, that’s the bottom line. That’s a reflection of you as a quarterback whether you want it or not. I take it as a responsibility of that quarterback.”

rest of article - http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2011/elway-says-broncos-qb-must-win-on-field-not-in-stats-column/

GEM
05-23-2011, 11:36 AM
That is part of the article I just posted. :shrugs:

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 11:45 AM
rest of article - http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2011/elway-says-broncos-qb-must-win-on-field-not-in-stats-column/

This has been said around here many times. It may not be fair but that's the way it is in the NFL.

BroncoWave
05-23-2011, 11:54 AM
There we have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Let's see what Orton's fan club has to say about that.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 12:03 PM
There we have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Let's see what Orton's fan club has to say about that.

You wouldn't happen to enjoy poking people with a stick would you? :boink: :D

Denver Native (Carol)
05-23-2011, 12:08 PM
That is part of the article I just posted. :shrugs:

Sorry - I could not open the link to the article you posted to read the rest of the article. You can move this thread to your thread

Juriga72
05-23-2011, 12:08 PM
Kyle Orton Fan club motto-"ONLY stats that show greatness need apply"

Juriga72
05-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Damn GEM....

Thats one hell of a ARTICLE!!!!!

GEM
05-23-2011, 12:13 PM
Merged, but kept Carol's title cause it's better. :lol: I posted that this morning in the middle of going through some lender rates so only half paying attention. :lol:

GEM
05-23-2011, 12:13 PM
Damn GEM....

Thats one hell of a ARTICLE!!!!!

Shush you!! :lol:

NightTerror218
05-23-2011, 12:32 PM
I posted that Quote in the "Orton Best QB Available" Thread to keep just 1 Orton trash talking thread, but I am fine with 2 of them.

Good news for Tebow Lovers, he is a winner, that is what matters!

HammeredOut
05-23-2011, 01:24 PM
There we have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Let's see what Orton's fan club has to say about that.

i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

slim
05-23-2011, 01:26 PM
i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

Have you met clay?

He hates Elway too.

Lonestar
05-23-2011, 01:43 PM
I still trust John to look at everything that went into our I repeat OUR record.

I'd rather trade the guy for a couple of stout proven DTs. Or get something of value for him while he is Still under contract.
But if we don't I expect he will be the starter IF and when the season starts

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 01:49 PM
I still trust John to look at everything that went into our I repeat OUR record.

I'd rather trade the guy for a couple of stout proven DTs. Or get something of value for him while he is Still under contract.
But if we don't I expect he will be the starter IF and when the season starts

Yep and he's still saying it all starts with guy under center.


For Hall-of-Fame quarterback turned Denver Broncos top executive John Elway, whether his team’s starting QB is Kyle Orton, Tim Tebow or Brady Quinn, he will be judged on wins and losses.

“You look at our quarterback situation,” Elway told the National Football Post. “Bottom line is we have three guys who can play. Kyle has had good numbers, but we haven’t won a lot of football games, that’s the bottom line. That’s a reflection of you as a quarterback whether you want it or not. I take it as a responsibility of that quarterback.”

http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2011/...-stats-column/

Tned
05-23-2011, 02:13 PM
Compared to Marino, Young, Aikman and many other QB's that played in roughly the same time frame, Elway's stats were not the best in the NFL, but he found ways to win games.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 02:29 PM
I really believe any QB in the NFL would have a losing record with the Broncos the last two season. Any of them.....

Its not fair to put the blame on the Qb alone, plain and simple. Its also not fair to say Orton helped his cause. Theres got to be a medium in Elways comments.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 02:31 PM
i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

Uhmm. No. YOu are wrong in so many things on this, I don't know where to start, but how about here.
Fans have never had more than 1/3 the pro-bowl vote and prior to 1995, only the coaches and the players voted for Pro Bowl selections. Which means, those that played against and coached against, ELway are the ones that selected him.

It's obvious that you are too young to even remember Elway playing. Here's a fact though... good offense helps defense. Elway didn't throw more INTs than TDs, and the NFL didn't have rules that made passing easier in those days, either.

The fact is.. Elway is STILL the only QB ever to start in 5 Super Bowls. The facts you post about Elway (and QB'ing in general) show someone that doesn't look at the play on the field, and make judgments based on numbers on a piece of paper. Get back to your fantasy football world, and when you are ready for big-boy football, come back.

"Passing numbers" don't mean shit. Elway was known as one of the greatest QBs to play the game, and that was BEFORE winning the SUper Bowls. He was already considered a HoF'er... BEFORE winning the SUper Bowls.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 02:34 PM
I really believe any QB in the NFL would have a losing record with the Broncos the last two season. Any of them.....

Its not fair to put the blame on the Qb alone, plain and simple. Its also not fair to say Orton helped his cause. Theres got to be a medium in Elways comments.

Fair enough, but it is the way the NFL works.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-23-2011, 02:42 PM
Compared to Marino, Young, Aikman and many other QB's that played in roughly the same time frame, Elway's stats were not the best in the NFL, but he found ways to win games.

After John retired, they were selling the John Elway Official Commemorative Envelope in the post offices here.

On the front of the envelope is 3 different action pictures of John, and lists his Career Highlights:

51,475 Passing Yards. Superbowl XXXIII MVP
300 TD Passes. Started in 5 Super Bowls
47 Game Saving Drives. 148 Games Won
Selected to 9 Pro Bowls. 50+ Bronco Records
Back to Back Super Bowl Victories ('98/'99)
Only QB to pass for 3,000 yds and rush for
200 yds in 7 straight seasons (1985-1991)

I don't know how that compares to other QB's at the time, but fairly impressive.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 03:06 PM
Does any real NFL fan believe Bradshaw should get all the credit for his Superbowls with the Steelers......

Or Jim Plunket, Jim Harbaugh, Trent Dilfer.

And Qbs deserve all the credit for winning/losing.....right.....:coffee:

Its unfair to judge a Qb soley on their record and not take into account the supporting cast.

Joe Namath had the lowest Qb rating in a Superbowl ever, and still won. But somehow, through the eyes of the NFL, Namath is resposible for that game.

Elways statement are a double standard along with most (if not all) NFL teams, but I understand thats just the way the league thinks because the Qb is the most important player on the field.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 03:16 PM
i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

You've brought it up before that Elway went to the Pro Bowl while throwing more interceptions than touchdowns but you've never mentioned what year. Here's a little history lessson for you Elway went to the pro bowl 9 times '86, '87, '89, '91, '93, '94, '96, '97, and '98.

1986: 19 touchdowns and 13 interceptions

1987: 19 touchdowns and 12 interceptions

1989: 18 touchdowns and 18 interceptions

1991: 13 touchdowns and 12 interceptions

1993: 25 touchdowns and 10 interceptions

1994: 16 touchdowns and 10 interceptions

1996: 26 touchdowns and 14 interceptions

1997: 27 touchdowns and 11 interceptions

1998: 22 touchdowns and 10 interceptions

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 03:16 PM
Yep and he's still saying it all starts with guy under center.

OMG!

You owe Npb an apology. :lol:

BroncoStud
05-23-2011, 03:16 PM
i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

THE DEFENSE DOESN'T PLAY OFFENSE ON 3RD DOWNS OR IN THE REDZONE, THE DEFENSE DOESN'T THROW CRUCIAL INTERCEPTIONS FOR TOUCHDOWNS, THE DEFENSE DOESN'T TAKE SACKS IN THE FETAL POSITION...

Stop with the excuses. The offense made STRIDES last year with Tim Freaking Tebow in at QB once Orton got benched. :rolleyes:

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 03:22 PM
Does any real NFL fan believe Bradshaw should get all the credit for his Superbowls with the Steelers......

Or Jim Plunket, Jim Harbaugh, Trent Dilfer.

And Qbs deserve all the credit for winning/losing.....right.....:coffee:

Its unfair to judge a Qb soley on their record and not take into account the supporting cast.

Joe Namath had the lowest Qb rating in a Superbowl ever, and still won. But somehow, through the eyes of the NFL, Namath is resposible for that game.

Elways statement are a double standard along with most (if not all) NFL teams, but I understand thats just the way the league thinks because the Qb is the most important player on the field.

Something that absolutely has to be taken into consideration in this discussion is the fact that we had the ball 6 times at the end of close games with a chance to win or tie and succeeded once. And every single one of those drives leaned heavily on Orton's shoulders. He crumpled under the pressure, this is backed up by his pitiful numbers in close games.

So, yes it is unfair to a point, but how many times do we have to watch Orton absolutely fail miserably in those situations before we go in a different direction?

I would love to have a QB who gives me hope at the end of a close game, can any of you honestly tell me Orton gives you that hope.

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 03:22 PM
As was BRoethlisraper's 1st SB, iirc. He sucked wind. Just the fact they went 1-3 last year without him, shows how a TEAM wins games/the SB.

Tned
05-23-2011, 03:22 PM
After John retired, they were selling the John Elway Official Commemorative Envelope in the post offices here.

On the front of the envelope is 3 different action pictures of John, and lists his Career Highlights:

51,475 Passing Yards. Superbowl XXXIII MVP
300 TD Passes. Started in 5 Super Bowls
47 Game Saving Drives. 148 Games Won
Selected to 9 Pro Bowls. 50+ Bronco Records
Back to Back Super Bowl Victories ('98/'99)
Only QB to pass for 3,000 yds and rush for
200 yds in 7 straight seasons (1985-1991)

I don't know how that compares to other QB's at the time, but fairly impressive.

I believe when he retired the passing yards were second to Marino and his wins were tops in the league (I think Favre broke that) -- not sure about TD's, but I suspect the 300 was top 3 or so.

Where he didn't rank up there with the QB's I mentioned and some others, was things like completion percent, passer rating, even TD/INT ratios. He just won.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 03:30 PM
THE DEFENSE DOESN'T PLAY OFFENSE ON 3RD DOWNS OR IN THE REDZONE, THE DEFENSE DOESN'T THROW CRUCIAL INTERCEPTIONS FOR TOUCHDOWNS, THE DEFENSE DOESN'T TAKE SACKS IN THE FETAL POSITION...

Stop with the excuses. The offense made STRIDES last year with Tim Freaking Tebow in at QB once Orton got benched. :rolleyes:

In the eyes of the NFL and Elway, how can a 1-2 record be considered strides?

Take a moment from your hate for Orton and digest Elways comments about Qbs. The final vertict is decided by wins and losses whether fair or unfair and Im sure thats not one of the strides your talking about because to many fans on this board, its the end all be all.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 03:30 PM
I believe when he retired the passing yards were second to Marino and his wins were tops in the league (I think Favre broke that) -- not sure about TD's, but I suspect the 300 was top 3 or so.

Where he didn't rank up there with the QB's I mentioned and some others, was things like completion percent, passer rating, even TD/INT ratios. He just won.

That is correct. When Elway retired his career passing yards were only second to Dan Marino's and he was the career leader in wins until Farve surpassed him. However he still holds the record for most come from behind wins in League history as far as I know.

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 03:30 PM
I believe when he retired the passing yards were second to Marino and his wins were tops in the league (I think Favre broke that) -- not sure about TD's, but I suspect the 300 was top 3 or so.

Where he didn't rank up there with the QB's I mentioned and some others, was things like completion percent, passer rating, even TD/INT ratios. He just won.
And if you heard him on Sirius, he said if it wasn't for the defense being good, taking pressure off of him to have to score 34ppg, he would have struggled even more than he did.

Denver's _efense gave up 29.4ppg. Only 1 offense, the Pats', averaged above 27ppg. Pretty obvious when Norcal said most qb's would have lost, he was right. ;)

topscribe
05-23-2011, 03:36 PM
i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

Correct. And I'm sure Elway can vividly recall his 5-11 season in 1990 . . .

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 03:41 PM
Something that absolutely has to be taken into consideration in this discussion is the fact that we had the ball 6 times at the end of close games with a chance to win or tie and succeeded once. And every single one of those drives leaned heavily on Orton's shoulders. He crumpled under the pressure, this is backed up by his pitiful numbers in close games.

So, yes it is unfair to a point, but how many times do we have to watch Orton absolutely fail miserably in those situations before we go in a different direction?

I would love to have a QB who gives me hope at the end of a close game, can any of you honestly tell me Orton gives you that hope.

:coffee:



I would argue Chaz, that because of the lack of any supporting cast and dreadful scheme that the game every week was on Ortons shoulder, not just in crunch time. Dont you agree?

My point was in the previous post was that Qbs are judged unfairly in the NFL when simply looking at the w/l collom. Thats all. Not a "Orton SUCKs/ No he doesnt!" response.

Tned
05-23-2011, 03:42 PM
And if you heard him on Sirius, he said if it wasn't for the defense being good, taking pressure off of him to have to score 34ppg, he would have struggled even more than he did.

Denver's _efense gave up 29.4ppg. Only 1 offense, the Pats', averaged above 27ppg. Pretty obvious when Norcal said most qb's would have lost, he was right. ;)

You know I heard him, because we discussed it... ;)

I'm definitely not in the group that believes you can put all the blame for the losses on Orton's shoulders. At the same time, I think he take a decent share of the blame from the stand point he is not a dynamic QB. He does some things well, but needs a lot of things going right for him to be successful. It's not clear if Tebow or Quinn are any better in that regard, but Tebow 'looks' like he can do more with less around him.

Only time and seeing Tebow play will let us know for sure.

Tned
05-23-2011, 03:44 PM
:coffee:



I would argue Chaz, that because of the lack of any supporting cast and dreadful scheme that the game every week was on Ortons shoulder, not just in crunch time. Dont you agree?

My point was in the previous post was that Qbs are judged unfairly in the NFL when simply looking at the w/l collom. Thats all.

It's also funny that when Jake was the QB and all he did was put up wins and had a GREAT win/loss ratio, that he was criticized for not looking pretty doing it, or the occasional bone head play.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 03:45 PM
:coffee:



I would argue Chaz, that because of the lack of any supporting cast and dreadful scheme that the game every week was on Ortons shoulder, not just in crunch time. Dont you agree?

My point was in the previous post was that Qbs are judged unfairly in the NFL when simply looking at the w/l collom. Thats all.

I agree with that completely. WHich is why no QB can be judged by looking at the stat-sheet alone. Too many are caught up in the numbers, by themselves.

But Orton was just flat out bad in crucial moments. I don't look at his stat sheet during the season, for that just doesn't matter to me.. it the play on the field that you can SEE with your eyes. Orton's play on the field, was just very... blah... at best. Terrible in crunch time. Never does a fan feel "we may be down, but we have ORTON on our side!!!" and feel excited.

Its more of a somber "great, we are down and we have Orton on our side." :tsk:

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 03:46 PM
You know I heard him, because we discussed it... ;)

I'm definitely not in the group that believes you can put all the blame for the losses on Orton's shoulders. At the same time, I think he take a decent share of the blame from the stand point he is not a dynamic QB. He does some things well, but needs a lot of things going right for him to be successful. It's not clear if Tebow or Quinn are any better in that regard, but Tebow 'looks' like he can do more with less around him.

Only time and seeing Tebow play will let us know for sure.

If/when he earns the nod. I agree. ;)

topscribe
05-23-2011, 03:52 PM
It's also funny that when Jake was the QB and all he did was put up wins and had a GREAT win/loss ratio, that he was criticized for not looking pretty doing it, or the occasional bone head play.

Of course, with Jake, that was with the following running game and defense:

LEAGUE RANKINGS

............Rushing......Defense
2003....... 2nd .......... 4th
2004....... 4th .......... 4th
2005....... 2nd .......... 15th

Just another example of what a decent running game and defense can do for a QB . . .

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 03:59 PM
It's also funny that when Jake was the QB and all he did was put up wins and had a GREAT win/loss ratio, that he was criticized for not looking pretty doing it, or the occasional bone head play.

Its because Qbs are overly criticized on everything.





I agree with that completely. WHich is why no QB can be judged by looking at the stat-sheet alone. Too many are caught up in the numbers, by themselves.

But Orton was just flat out bad in crucial moments. I don't look at his stat sheet during the season, for that just doesn't matter to me.. it the play on the field that you can SEE with your eyes. Orton's play on the field, was just very... blah... at best. Terrible in crunch time. Never does a fan feel "we may be down, but we have ORTON on our side!!!" and feel excited.

Its more of a somber "great, we are down and we have Orton on our side." :tsk:

Uh, according to Elway and everybody with power in the NFL, one stat matters, and nothing else.....W/L. Everything else is a distant second. Its the end all, be all (only when looking at Qbs though).

Tned
05-23-2011, 04:01 PM
Of course, with Jake, that was with the following running game and defense:

LEAGUE RANKINGS

............Rushing......Defense
2003....... 2nd .......... 4th
2004....... 4th .......... 4th
2005....... 2nd .......... 15th

Just another example of what a decent running game and defense can do for a QB . . .

-----

He also went a long way to help that running game due to his mobility and the defenses having to protect the edges.

BroncoJoe
05-23-2011, 04:01 PM
Gotta love it. Find ways to discount Elway to defend Orton.

Simply amazing.

Tned
05-23-2011, 04:03 PM
Gotta love it. Find ways to discount Elway to defend Orton.

Simply amazing.

I think we should start a movement to have Elway stripped of his HOF jacket and have his HOF bust melted down --- he was just a so/so QB with a good running game and defense... ;)

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:06 PM
Gotta love it. Find ways to discount Elway to defend Orton.

Simply amazing.

If that is the way you choose to interpret it, if you're talking about my post.
I watched Elway his entire career. I will be the last to "discount" him. I was only
showing that a G.O.A.T. will struggle in the W-L without a good supporting cast . . .

-----

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:09 PM
He also went a long way to help that running game due to his mobility and the defenses having to protect the edges.

Is that your response? Do you have anything to support that?

I provided cold figures. Black and white. No conjecture. No attempt at explaining away . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
05-23-2011, 04:11 PM
If that is the way you choose to interpret it, if you're talking about my post. Talking about several posters, and did not single anyone out.
I watched Elway his entire career. You're not the only one to have done that. I will be the last to "discount" him. I was only
showing that a G.O.A.T. will struggle in the W-L without a good supporting cast . . . Yet he produced the most wins of any QB to EVER play the game at the time of his retirement.

-----

:facepalm:

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:13 PM
Gotta love it. Find ways to discount Elway to defend Orton.

Simply amazing.

Yeah, Ive discounted what Elways says about Qbs in this article. I dont think its fair to simply judge them on W/L. Do you?

BroncoJoe
05-23-2011, 04:15 PM
Yeah, Ive discounted what Elways says about Qbs in this article. I dont think its fair to simply judge them on W/L. Do you?

Sole judgement? Obviously not. A high percentage of judgement? Absolutely.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Yeah, Ive discounted what Elways says about Qbs in this article. I dont think its fair to simply judge them on W/L. Do you?

YOu do see that Elway doesn't say that HOW you judge QBs. He says that is how they ARE judged, whether they like it or not. He's right. Thats how QBs are judged.

Juriga72
05-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Of course, with Jake, that was with the following running game and defense:

LEAGUE RANKINGS

............Rushing......Defense Passing
2003....... 2nd .......... 4th 22nd
2004....... 4th .......... 4th 6th
2005....... 2nd .......... 15th 18th

Just another example of what a decent running game and defense can do for a QB . . .

-----

Yes.... it shows that a quarterback can ride the coattails of his team to the playoffs.....

BroncoStud
05-23-2011, 04:17 PM
It's also funny that when Jake was the QB and all he did was put up wins and had a GREAT win/loss ratio, that he was criticized for not looking pretty doing it, or the occasional bone head play.

I loved Plummer as our QB. He was fun to watch. The Snake is the MAN.

BroncoStud
05-23-2011, 04:18 PM
Gotta love it. Find ways to discount Elway to defend Orton.

Simply amazing.

Stockholm Syndrome dude... They've been held captive by mediocre QB play for so long they don't remember what a REAL QB looked like, and now they fear it.

BroncoJoe
05-23-2011, 04:18 PM
NFL QB = MLB Pitcher

vandammage13
05-23-2011, 04:19 PM
Not trying to derail the thread here, but I had a thought and I didn't really feel like creating yet another Orton thread......

Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that Orton's late season struggles had less to do with his "rib injury" and more to do with Spygate II? It seems that after the Broncos/McD were caught cheating, Orton's play drastically declined after week 11.

Not saying that it was the reason, but it seems logical enough to explore/discuss the possibility.

Or can we just chalk it up to him just being mediocre in general?

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:19 PM
:facepalm:

I never did know what :facepalm: means. Is that a Freak thing?

Anyway, I apologized to you, both openly in an MHS. And that was for nothing intentional . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:21 PM
Not trying to derail the thread here, but I had a thought and I didn't really feel like creating yet another Orton thread......

Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that Orton's late season struggles had less to do with his "rib injury" and more to do with Spygate II? It seems that after the Broncos/McD were caught cheating, Orton's play drastically declined after week 11.

Not saying that it was the reason, but it seems logical enough to explore the possibility.

Or can we just chalk it up to him just being mediocre in general?

I think thats REALLY REALLY stretching it. I don't see how that would effect his play. But,I'm sure some are thankful for something else to use as an excuse. :beer:

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:22 PM
Sole judgement? Obviously not. A high percentage of judgement? Absolutely.

I agree. But Elway doesnt. Unless Im reading the bold comment below wrong, we both disagree with Elway.



YOu do see that Elway doesn't say that HOW you judge QBs. He says that is how they ARE judged, whether they like it or not. He's right. Thats how QBs are judged.


Bottom line is we have three guys who can play. Kyle has had good numbers, but we haven’t won a lot of football games, that’s the bottom line. That’s a reflection of you as a quarterback whether you want it or not. I take it as a responsibility of that quarterback.”

Read it again, Rav.

BroncoWave
05-23-2011, 04:24 PM
I think thats REALLY REALLY stretching it. I don't see how that would effect his play. But,I'm sure some are thankful for something else to use as an excuse. :beer:

If anything, I think that excuse would help the argument of Orton detractors more than Orton supporters. If true, it would go to show that he was only putting up big stats because he knew what the defense was going to do.

BroncoJoe
05-23-2011, 04:24 PM
I agree. But Elway doesnt. Unless Im reading the bold comment below wrong, we both disagree with Elway.






Read it again, Rav.


Sole judgement? Obviously not. A high percentage of judgement? Absolutely.

A high percentage lays MOST of the blame on the QB. I do agree with what Elway said.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:26 PM
Read it again, Rav.


Bottom line is we have three guys who can play. Kyle has had good numbers, but we haven’t won a lot of football games, that’s the bottom line. That’s a reflection of you as a quarterback whether you want it or not. I take it as a responsibility of that quarterback.”

No, you read it again. He's saying, whether you like it or not, THAT is how QBs are judged.

Tned
05-23-2011, 04:26 PM
Is that your response? Do you have anything to support that?

I provided cold figures. Black and white. No conjecture. No attempt at explaining away . . .

-----

I think Joe said it best...

:facepalm:

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:27 PM
You know, it is really ironic, if not hypocritical, that so many on this board are
pointing at Orton's record last year in their attempts to discount him.

Yet when his W-L record in Chicago was brought to their attention . . . oh, but
that's different! He had that GREAT DEFENSE!!

Forget the last-place defense of last year . . .


And then I point out that even a G.O.A.T. benefits from a good supporting cast,
and now I'm accused of discounting Elway. Wow. That really is hypocritical.

Here is what I posted regarding how Elway fared with the various levels of
defense and rushing offense:


Even at that, the best QBs are dependent on their supporting cast. Take, for
instance, one of the best who ever played: John Elway, to whom John
Madden referred as the "greatest one-man gang I have ever seen."

Elway was just as dependent upon defense and running game as any other
QB. Only once in his five SB years did the rushing game rank lower than 12th
in the league ( in 1986 it was 20th), yet the defense ranked 9th that year. In
his other SB years:

Year……Defense…….Rush
1987…….9…………… 12
1989…….3………………6
1997…….5………………4
1998…..11………………2

(Sorry, I don’t know how to do columns here.)

In 1996, their 13-3 year, when they should have won the SB, the defense
ranked 4th in the league and rushing 1st.

In the four years from 1992 through 1995, the Broncos ranked as low as 28th
in defense and 25th in rushing. Elway’s record? .500

In 1990, the Broncos were 5-11. Defense ranked 20th that year, and rushing 14th.

In 1988, an 8-8 year, the defense was 22nd and rushing 19th.

So, you see, this idea that Elway was always a winning QB with a bad defense
and rushing game is myth.

So let’s all call Orton a loser because he was 3-10 with the last place
defense and the last place rushing game, shall we? Let’s forget that Orton
was one of the winningest QBs in the league before he came to the
wasteland in Dove Valley. Forget that he dazzled defenses and carried the
Broncos’ offense before severe rib injuries brought him down his last couple
games.

I hope Fox and Elway can think more deeply than some of the people on these
football boards.

-----

I did that here: http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155

Never have gotten back anything on this except for snarky remarks . . . :coffee:

-----

vandammage13
05-23-2011, 04:27 PM
I think thats REALLY REALLY stretching it. I don't see how that would effect his play. But,I'm sure some are thankful for something else to use as an excuse. :beer:

You don't see how having video tape of other teams practices could give Orton an edge? It would help them see how defenses are preparing and the staff could adjust the gameplan accordingly.

Again, I'm not saying that this is the reason for his late-season collapse, but certainly having inside information on another team's defensive plan would give any QB an advantage.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:28 PM
If anything, I think that excuse would help the argument of Orton detractors more than Orton supporters. If true, it would go to show that he was only putting up big stats because he knew what the defense was going to do.

I don't think so, Bailey. I mean, I don't hate Orton, but I certainly have never wanted him as our starter..even more so after watching him play AS our starter.

But there is no reason to believe that he had the benefit of taping the other teams other than the 49ers game. Anyone believing otherwise is just stretching to for the pure purpose of stretching.

But I see what you are saying.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:29 PM
No, you read it again. He's saying, whether you like it or not, THAT is how QBs are judged.

And that he looks at the Broncos Qb in the same way...."I take it as responsibility of that Qb"... meaning the Qbs are responsible.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:30 PM
I think Joe said it best...

:facepalm:

Is that supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

Is that how you try to help people to enjoy this forum?

-----

BroncoWave
05-23-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't think so, Bailey. I mean, I don't hate Orton, but I certainly have never wanted him as our starter..even more so after watching him play AS our starter.

But there is no reason to believe that he had the benefit of taping the other teams other than the 49ers game. Anyone believing otherwise is just stretching to for the pure purpose of stretching.

But I see what you are saying.

Oh I don't think he got any benefit from taping either, just saying that if that scenario were true, it would help our argument more than theirs.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:32 PM
And that he looks at the Broncos Qb in the same way...."I take it as responsibility of that Qb"... meaning the Qbs are responsible.

Meaning they have to take responsibility for the W/L...and they do. If they have a bad W/L record, thts on THEIR shoulders because thats how they are judged (whether they like it or not). Thats just the way it is, and Elway understands this as much as anyone.

NightTerror218
05-23-2011, 04:32 PM
In the eyes of the NFL and Elway, how can a 1-2 record be considered strides?

Take a moment from your hate for Orton and digest Elways comments about Qbs. The final vertict is decided by wins and losses whether fair or unfair and Im sure thats not one of the strides your talking about because to many fans on this board, its the end all be all.


Maybe because he was a rookie and his first starts. Not many rookies explode onto the scene their rookie year. Who did Elway try to take his first snap from? It was not the center.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-23-2011, 04:33 PM
You don't see how having video tape of other teams practices could give Orton an edge? It would help them see how defenses are preparing and the staff could adjust the gameplan accordingly.

Again, I'm not saying that this is the reason for his late-season collapse, but certainly having inside information on another team's defensive plan would give any QB an advantage.

The only time that the Broncos practiced where their opponent was, was in London - i.e. 49'ers. Therefore, that could have been the only time they had an edge in regards to having video tape of another team's practice.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:33 PM
Meaning they have to take responsibility for the W/L...and they do. If they have a bad W/L record, thts on THEIR shoulders because thats how they are judged. Thats just the way it is, and Elway understands this as much as anyone.

And it unfair. Thats all Ive been saying Rav. Thats it.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:36 PM
And it unfair. Thats all Ive been saying Rav. Thats it.

Ok. But Elway isn't saying differently. He's saying that QBs are judged by this. He knows that because he felt that pressure. He understands this because he's been in that position. He's not saying this is how it SHOULD be, but just stating on how it IS. THats the life of the NFL QB. They are judged on their W/L record, and its their responsibility to ACCEPT that as what they are judged upon.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:36 PM
And it unfair. Thats all Ive been saying Rav. Thats it.

As I mentioned in Post #61 (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1267524&postcount=61), it is also very selective.

Orton had a winning record in Chicago because of that GREAT DEFENSE.

But last year's record is ALLLLLLLLLL on Orton, DESPITE that LAST-PLACE DEFENSE.

It's so hypocritical . . .

-----

vandammage13
05-23-2011, 04:36 PM
The only time that the Broncos practiced where their opponent was, was in London - i.e. 49'ers. Therefore, that could have been the only time they had an edge in regards to having video tape of another team's practice.

Possibly, but what are the odds that the only time they taped another teams practice was also the only time they were caught? Seems to me that it is highly probable that the 9ers game wasn't the only time McD tried this (given his history with the Pats, coupled with his ego).

I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time, not to be naive...I wouldn't put anything past McD.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:40 PM
Maybe because he was a rookie and his first starts. Not many rookies explode onto the scene their rookie year. Who did Elway try to take his first snap from? It was not the center.

Im not trashing Tebow at all. Im one of the few in this thread actually discussing the point. " Elway Says Broncos QB Must Win On Field Not In Stats Column" and thats what Im speaking of.

Stud said in my response to that quote that the offense made strides with Tebow! Ok. Does that matter at the end of the day to Elway if they didnt win? Evidently not. Even though it really does matter to everyone.

Tned
05-23-2011, 04:41 PM
I never did know what :facepalm: means. Is that a Freak thing?

Anyway, I apologized to you, both openly in an MHS. And that was for nothing intentional . . .

-----

Here you go, a facepalm -- picture says 1,000 words...

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/picard_facepalm.jpg

And when it's so bad that one palm won't do the trick, the double facepalm...

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/picard_facepalm2.jpg

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:41 PM
As I mentioned in Post #61, it is also very selective.

Orton had a winning record in Chicago because of that GREAT DEFENSE.

But last year's record is ALLLLLLLLLL on Orton, DESPITE that LAST-PLACE DEFENSE.

It's so hypocritical . . .

-----

But they don't say that about GOOD QBs. They say that about QBs like Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, and Orton. Why do you suppose that is? Its not simply because fans are RANDOMLY choosing as to which QBs get credit and which ones don't..... its because they can SEE which QBs lead their teams to wins, and which ones FAIL when the game is on their shoulders.

Orton hasn't shown he can win unless the defense is holding the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half of the game. If not, he loses. That points MORE to the need of complete defense domination than his ability to overcome.

Orton has FAILED in the biggest parts of the games, repeatedly, on a consistent basis.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:44 PM
Ok. But Elway isn't saying differently. He's saying that QBs are judged by this. He knows that because he felt that pressure. He understands this because he's been in that position. He's not saying this is how it SHOULD be, but just stating on how it IS. THats the life of the NFL QB. They are judged on their W/L record, and its their responsibility to ACCEPT that as what they are judged upon.

I truely believe you only read what you want to see.

"I take it as responsibility of that Qb." Hes not talking about himself here Rav.

T.K.O.
05-23-2011, 04:46 PM
most good to great teams have a balance of decent play from qb,rb's,recievers & defense.
rarely can any one position be much of a difference maker.
Elway is right that it's up to the qb to make sure he excecutes when the chips are down,but the broncos record could have been greatly improved if other aspects of the team had been better as well.
4-12 ? i blame everyone from the top to the bottom of the organization for that crapola ! (including Orton)

BroncoWave
05-23-2011, 04:50 PM
Possibly, but what are the odds that the only time they taped another teams practice was also the only time they were caught? Seems to me that it is highly probable that the 9ers game wasn't the only time McD tried this (given his history with the Pats, coupled with his ego).

I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time, not to be naive...I wouldn't put anything past McD.

The London game is unique though because both teams can practice on the same field. That's why teams have only been caught either at the SB (Pats) or London (Broncos).

Tned
05-23-2011, 04:50 PM
most good to great teams have a balance of decent play from qb,rb's,recievers & defense.
rarely can any one position be much of a difference maker.
Elway is right that it's up to the qb to make sure he excecutes when the chips are down,but the broncos record could have been greatly improved if other aspects of the team had been better as well.
4-12 ? i blame everyone from the top to the bottom of the organization for that crapola ! (including Orton)

There is certainly plenty of blame to go around. Even in games, especially in '09, when the defense played well, the offense couldn't put enough sustained drives together to keep the defense off the field, which wears them down.

Conversely, if the defense is giving up points early, it puts pressure on the offense to score on every possession to win a shootout.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 04:51 PM
I truely believe you only read what you want to see.

"I take it as responsibility of that Qb." Hes not talking about himself here Rav.

Wow, sometimes I'm amazed at people.

He's talking about ALLLLLLLLLL QBs. How is that so hard to understand?

He's talking about ALLLL QBs. HE was judged by his wins and losses... this was something HE had to accept. All QBs have to understand that no matter what, Wins and Losses is ALL that matters, thats ALLLL you are judged by.

DOesn't matter if you like it or not. DOesn't matter if its "fair." Thats how it is. Thats the life of the NFL QB, and AS an NFL QB, you have to ACCEPT THAT. ""I take it as responsibility of that Qb." Meaning "Ive been there, and I know its the responsibility of the QB." And it is.

That's what he is saying. Where did I say that Elway was talking about himself in his quoted statement? Are you lacking sleep or something?

Denver Native (Carol)
05-23-2011, 04:53 PM
Possibly, but what are the odds that the only time they taped another teams practice was also the only time they were caught? Seems to me that it is highly probable that the 9ers game wasn't the only time McD tried this (given his history with the Pats, coupled with his ego).

I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time, not to be naive...I wouldn't put anything past McD.

Where, other than London, would they have had access to another team's practice?

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 04:54 PM
most good to great teams have a balance of decent play from qb,rb's,recievers & defense.
rarely can any one position be much of a difference maker.
Elway is right that it's up to the qb to make sure he excecutes when the chips are down,but the broncos record could have been greatly improved if other aspects of the team had been better as well.
4-12 ? i blame everyone from the top to the bottom of the organization for that crapola ! (including Orton)

And the overwhelming majority of us agree with you, but QB is the position that gets discussed. It's interesting. Talking about whether or not our LG or NT is up-to-snuff is boring and not really going to generate big discussions.

The QB gets scrutinized more closely, that's the price he pays for getting the big bucks and hot chicks.

BroncoStud
05-23-2011, 04:55 PM
:lol: TOP is too funny. Very underrated for his humor.

Tned
05-23-2011, 04:57 PM
Where, other than London, would they have had access to another team's practice?

Yep. I think it's a reach to think that they were cheating all along and that's why Orton racked up passing yards early on.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 04:57 PM
And the overwhelming majority of us agree with you, but QB is the position that gets discussed. It's interesting. Talking about whether or not our LG or NT is up-to-snuff is boring and not really going to generate big discussions.

The QB gets scrutinized more closely, that's the price he pays for getting the big bucks and hot chicks.

Absolutely true. Fair or unfair, that is true, and I think that is what Elway was
trying to stress. My only beef is with how selective it has been, as I mentioned
in the past few posts . . .

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 04:57 PM
But they don't say that about GOOD QBs. They say that about QBs like Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, and Orton. Why do you suppose that is? Its not simply because fans are RANDOMLY choosing as to which QBs get credit and which ones don't..... its because they can SEE which QBs lead their teams to wins, and which ones FAIL when the game is on their shoulders.

Orton hasn't shown he can win unless the defense is holding the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half of the game. If not, he loses. That points MORE to the need of complete defense domination than his ability to overcome.

Orton has FAILED in the biggest parts of the games, repeatedly, on a consistent basis.

Here you go with your blind hatred again Rav. Keep telling yourself your not a hater.

Like I said before, I think Ortons an above average-good Qb. Nothing more. But when you come out with complete garbage, extremely EXAGGERATTED comments like this one, remember the issue isnt about football really, but rather your figurative imagination and your insult of common sense.

Broncos fans, this is where I defend Orton, against comments like these. Dont confuse fans who defend against such comments as fans who like Orton, or even want him on our team. But fans that see bias, and call a spade a spade.

T.K.O.
05-23-2011, 05:01 PM
if you asked Elway what it took to win a SuperBowl....i bet he'd also say that it takes a supreme effort by the WHOLE team.a great running game and adequate DEFENSE !
so he more than most realize that while you do need constantly good performance from your qb....that alone wont get you very far in the league.
that is how he was once known as a "big game bust"
ive told this one before but here is the joke that went around for almost a decade.......
why does john elway eat his cereal from a cup ?.........................
because he chokes on anything in a bowl !:shocked:

HORSEPOWER 56
05-23-2011, 05:02 PM
But they don't say that about GOOD QBs. They say that about QBs like Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, and Orton. Why do you suppose that is? Its not simply because fans are RANDOMLY choosing as to which QBs get credit and which ones don't..... its because they can SEE which QBs lead their teams to wins, and which ones FAIL when the game is on their shoulders.

Orton hasn't shown he can win unless the defense is holding the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half of the game. If not, he loses. That points MORE to the need of complete defense domination than his ability to overcome.

Orton has FAILED in the biggest parts of the games, repeatedly, on a consistent basis.

Exactly. When the Colts don't win, few people point out that they are in the lower 3rd of the league in defense pretty much every year. It's because Manning didn't do enough to win. Likewise, when they do win, even when the defense or running game has a major role, Manning gets the accolades.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 05:03 PM
Here you go with your blind hatred again Rav. Keep telling yourself your not a hater.

Like I said before, I think Ortons an above average-good Qb. Nothing more. But when you come out with complete garbage, extremely EXAGGERATTED comments like this one, remember the issue isnt about football really, but rather your figurative imagination and your insult of common sense.

Broncos fans, this is where I defend Orton, against comments like these. Dont confuse fans who defend against such comments as fans who like Orton, or even want him on our team. But fans that see bias, and call a spade a spade.

Hatred? No. Observation of the truth, is more like it.

We won our first six games of '09 when our defense held the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half. After that, we did not hold the opponent to 0 points in the second half, and the the record was 2-8.

Then in '10, our record with Orton is...3-9 while not keeping the opposing team to 0 points in the second half.

TELL ME WHERE I'M EXAGGERATING.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 05:05 PM
if you asked Elway what it took to win a SuperBowl....i bet he'd also say that it takes a supreme effort by the WHOLE team.a great running game and adequate DEFENSE !
so he more than most realize that while you do need constantly good performance from your qb....that alone wont get you very far in the league.
that is how he was once known as a "big game bust"
ive told this one before but here is the joke that went around for almost a decade.......
why does john elway eat his cereal from a cup ?.........................
because he chokes on anything in a bowl !:shocked:

I remember stuff like that. I hated it. :mad:

I was in ecstasy when Elway lifted his first Super Bowl trophy over his head,
because it was Elway, and he had taken a lot of gaff and bashing over his
previous SBs.

-----

T.K.O.
05-23-2011, 05:13 PM
I remember stuff like that. I hated it. :mad:

I was in ecstasy when Elway lifted his first Super Bowl trophy over his head,
because it was Elway, and he had taken a lot of gaff and bashing over his
previous SBs.

-----

quite simply the greatest qb to ever wear the orange & blue.....but even he could'nt get to the promised land without all cylinders firing !
i am in no way putting Orton in that league,but i know that it takes a talented supporting cast and some pretty inovative coaching to win consistantly and last year orton had very lttle help in either department !:salute:

topscribe
05-23-2011, 05:19 PM
quite simply the greatest qb to ever wear the orange & blue.....but even he could'nt get to the promised land without all cylinders firing !
i am in no way putting Orton in that league,but i know that it takes a talented supporting cast and some pretty inovative coaching to win consistantly and last year orton had very lttle help in either department !:salute:

Yes, and I have agreed openly and without qualification with those who have
pointed out Orton's conversion rate for 3rd downs and in the RZ. All I have done
from there is to say that, while I know Orton shares a degree of blame in that, I
would like to see him with a halfway decent running game and a halfway decent
TE, and then see how much he can improve in that area before I personally
decide to what degree Orton has been to blame in those areas.

I don't know why that seems so unfair to some . . . :tsk:

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:19 PM
Hatred? No. Observation of the truth, is more like it.

We won our first six games of '09 when our defense held the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half. After that, we did not hold the opponent to 0 points in the second half, and the the record was 2-8.

Then in '10, our record with Orton is...3-9 while not keeping the opposing team to 0 points in the second half.

TELL ME WHERE I'M EXAGGERATING.


Rav, the Cinci and Chargers game in 09 were not complete second half shutouts. Sooooooooo there ya go.

Lets start with facts first, then you should try again with "Orton hasn't shown he can win unless the defense is holding the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half of the game. If not, he loses."

NightTerror218
05-23-2011, 05:22 PM
Im not trashing Tebow at all. Im one of the few in this thread actually discussing the point. " Elway Says Broncos QB Must Win On Field Not In Stats Column" and thats what Im speaking of.

Stud said in my response to that quote that the offense made strides with Tebow! Ok. Does that matter at the end of the day to Elway if they didnt win? Evidently not. Even though it really does matter to everyone.


My prob with Orton is that he does not have that leadership quality. He can't handle pressure on the field. If he could do those 2 things he would be a good QB. Elway can see that he buckles under pressure when the game was in his hands. He through several interceptions in game winning drives. That is the biggest question Elway has, when down by 1 possession, who's hands do you want on the ball?

spikerman
05-23-2011, 05:26 PM
Does any real NFL fan believe Bradshaw should get all the credit for his Superbowls with the Steelers......

Or Jim Plunket, Jim Harbaugh, Trent Dilfer.

And Qbs deserve all the credit for winning/losing.....right.....:coffee:

Its unfair to judge a Qb soley on their record and not take into account the supporting cast.

Joe Namath had the lowest Qb rating in a Superbowl ever, and still won. But somehow, through the eyes of the NFL, Namath is resposible for that game.

Elways statement are a double standard along with most (if not all) NFL teams, but I understand thats just the way the league thinks because the Qb is the most important player on the field.

A quote from John Madden - The subject was actually Donovan McNabb,

He's as close to a one-man gang as anything in the NFL since John Elway in Denver.

http://msn.foxsports.com/home/story/NFL-ON-FOX-Conference-Call%253A--John-Madden

Contrary to popular belief, Elway did not have a great supporting cast in those first three Super Bowls. They were ok, but they were far inferior to the NFC teams they were playing.

NightTerror218
05-23-2011, 05:28 PM
I keep seeing people posting about needing a Defense and a Running game. But how come the Vikings did so bad with no production from the QB. They are being called the "most SB ready team" they just need a QB.

IF all this talk about having a good defense and running game they why do they suck? The QB has a bigger role as a team leader and as a person who can rally the team. Looking at Manning, no running game there and they make playoffs every year, same with Pats. As defense goes, Chargers had the best defense and no playoffs, Miami and NYG also had great defenses and no playoffs. Miami had a good running game and no QB. NYG seems to have the pieces also but no go.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 05:29 PM
A quote from John Madden - The subject was actually Donovan McNabb,

He's as close to a one-man gang as anything in the NFL since John Elway in Denver.

http://msn.foxsports.com/home/story/NFL-ON-FOX-Conference-Call%253A--John-Madden

Contrary to popular belief, Elway did not have a great supporting cast in those first three Super Bowls. They were ok, but they were far inferior to the NFC teams they were playing.

To the contrary, Elway did have very good supporting casts in those SBs.

Please refer to my post earlier in this thread (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1267524&postcount=61) to see just what he did have.

P.S. Notice also that I cited Madden's comment in that post . . .

-----

Lonestar
05-23-2011, 05:30 PM
It's also funny that when Jake was the QB and all he did was put up wins and had a GREAT win/loss ratio, that he was criticized for not looking pretty doing it, or the occasional bone head play.

Some times one can't win for losing.

It is unfortunate that some have woodys for players and because of that hate the guy he competes with. Or flat hates Jake for reasons unkonwn.

Jake was the helm for alot of wins. which he got credit for but because he was not John some hated the mistakes he makes more than they would have had it been John doing it.

John while a great player made lots of those mistakes trying to force the ball was a hero when it worked and beloved if it did not.

John also had lots of come back wins. But then some of them were also because h made mistakes earlier in the game that allowed the other team to take the lead.

Folks make lots of tado about the few pick 6 that Orton threw, it was 3 total and two of them were in one game that was not close to start with. I could be wrong about that but believe it to be factual.

They whine and cry about it like it was an every game occurence. Once. Again show me a QB that has not done so at one time or the other and I'll start the petition to have him canonized.

What everyone seems to forget that in the case of a QB taking a sack that means someone got beat in protection. Or if there is a incomplete pass on third down there is a good chance someone did not make the catch. Could have been off the mark or just a flat drop.
Same goes for third down pick up on running plays. Either some one made a great play on defense or someone missed a block or the RB flat blew it.

The third down stat is a valid one IF the QB was the only one involved in the play.

Everyone forgets it is a TEAM game.

Tned
05-23-2011, 05:34 PM
Some times one can't win for losing.

It is unfortunate that some have woodys for players and because of that hate the guy he competes with. Or flat hates Jake for reasons unkonwn.

Jake was the helm for alot of wins. which he got credit for but because he was not John some hated the mistakes he makes more than they would have had it been John doing it.

John while a great player made lots of those mistakes trying to force the ball was a hero when it worked and beloved if it did not.

John also had lots of come back wins. But then some of them were also because h made mistakes earlier in the game that allowed the other team to take the lead.

Folks make lots of tado about the few pick 6 that Orton threw, it was 3 total and two of them were in one game that was not close to start with. I could be wrong about that but believe it to be factual.

They whine and cry about it like it was an every game occurence. Once. Again show me a QB that has not done so at one time or the other and I'll start the petition to have him canonized.

What everyone seems to forget that in the case of a QB taking a sack that means someone got beat in protection. Or if there is a incomplete pass on third down there is a good chance someone did not make the catch. Could have been off the mark or just a flat drop.
Same goes for third down pick up on running plays. Either some one made a great play on defense or someone missed a block or the RB flat blew it.

The third down stat is a valid one IF the QB was the only one involved in the play.

Everyone forgets it is a TEAM game.

Same happened with Cutler. People that loved Plummer, hated Cutler because he replaced him.

Your point about the pick sixes also has a parallel in what fans did with Cutler. How many posts have we read in here about him being an RZ INT throwing machine, when in fact is TD/INT ratio in the red zone in Denver was something like 34-4 (going by memory, but that is real close to what it was, maybe 27-4).

Often people draw very harsh (and inaccurate) conclusions about a QB from a handful of plays.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:34 PM
My prob with Orton is that he does not have that leadership quality. He can't handle pressure on the field. If he could do those 2 things he would be a good QB. Elway can see that he buckles under pressure when the game was in his hands. He through several interceptions in game winning drives. That is the biggest question Elway has, when down by 1 possession, who's hands do you want on the ball?

Your biggest issue with Orton is hes not Tebow, no?



;)

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 05:37 PM
Your biggest issue with Orton is hes not Tebow, no?



;)

Why is it people think if you don't like Orton you must be a Tebow fanatic. I am a Bronco fan and have been for as long as I can remember but I can't stand the thought of another year of Orton and trust me it has nothing to do with Tebow.

spikerman
05-23-2011, 05:40 PM
To the contrary, Elway did have very good supporting casts in those SBs.

Please refer to my post earlier in this thread (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1267524&postcount=61) to see just what he did have.

P.S. Notice also that I cited Madden's comment in that post . . .

-----

I'm doing this without any research, but I don't believe any Broncos' WRs made the Pro Bowl before Anthony Miller - that includes the "Three Amigos". I may be wrong about that, but that's what I remember. Also, while players like Sammy Winder, Bobby Humphrey, Gaston Green, and a washed-up Tony Dorsett may have been decent and capable of good games, they were by no means elite backs.

Denver had fairly weak defenses in all three Super Bowls - that was reflected in the scores of the games. If it wasn't for "The Drive" in which Elway undoubtedly put the team on his back they wouldn't have gone against the Giants. They really had no business winning that game. The next year, the defense collapsed (and showed what was to come against the Redskins) at home against the Browns. Only a flukey, fortuitous fumble near the Denver goal line allowed the Broncos to win after blowing a sizeable lead. I don't think anybody who has even heard the word "football" can say that Denver belonged on the same field as the 49ers talent-wise.

If your opinion is that Elway had a superior supporting cast, that's fine and that's your opinion. I think mine is more in line with John Madden in that Elway often had to carry the team.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:41 PM
Why is it people think if you don't like Orton you must be a Tebow fanatic. I am a Bronco fan and have been for as long as I can remember but I can't stand the thought of another year of Orton and trust me it has nothing to do with Tebow.

His adopt a broncos is timmy tebow......

Most of his post are about tebow and how he is better than orton.....

He joined after tebow was a bronco......



hmmmmmmm.......

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 05:43 PM
His adopt a broncos is timmy tebow......

Most of his post are about tebow and how he is better than orton.....

He joined after tebow was a bronco......



hmmmmmmm.......

And your joindate was in 2010 and most of your posts are defending Orton







Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

topscribe
05-23-2011, 05:45 PM
I'm doing this without any research, but I don't believe any Broncos' WRs made the Pro Bowl before Anthony Miller - that includes the "Three Amigos". I may be wrong about that, but that's what I remember. Also, while players like Sammy Winder, Bobby Humphrey, Gaston Green, and a washed-up Tony Dorsett may have been decent and capable of good games, they were by no means elite backs.

Denver had fairly weak defenses in all three Super Bowls - that was reflected in the scores of the games. If it wasn't for "The Drive" in which Elway undoubtedly put the team on his back they wouldn't have gone against the Giants. They really had no business winning that game. The next year, the defense collapsed (and showed what was to come against the Redskins) at home against the Browns. Only a flukey, fortuitous fumble near the Denver goal line allowed the Broncos to win after blowing a sizeable lead. I don't think anybody who has even heard the word "football" can say that Denver belonged on the same field as the 49ers talent-wise.

If your opinion is that Elway had a superior supporting cast, that's fine and that's your opinion. I think mine is more in line with John Madden in that Elway often had to carry the team.

I did not say Denver had a "superior" supporting cast. Anywhere. At any time.
And I did not say that Elway was not better than most (or everyone, possibly)
at carrying a team.

I provided documentation showing that Elway had a better supporting cast
than what was claimed of him. It shows that he had a very good supporting
cast. It was not in the same league as SF's, but I sincerely believe that SF
team was the best football team, overall, ever to be put on the field.

I know you didn't do it intentionally, Spikey, but please don't make my
comments more than they are . . . ;)

-----

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 05:46 PM
Rav, the Cinci and Chargers game in 09 were not complete second half shutouts. Sooooooooo there ya go.

Lets start with facts first, then you should try again with "Orton hasn't shown he can win unless the defense is holding the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half of the game. If not, he loses."

:lol:

Yeah.. the lucky deflecting, short thrown TD in cinci... and then holding San Diego to 3 points in the second half. Yeah.. you REALLY proved me wrong! :lol:

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:47 PM
And your joindate was in 2010 and most of your posts are defending Orton







Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX3O_oPw4wBUfsnH7VCbwalMcLUK44G 8n8dpmTdF41QrNv9NlQNQ

topscribe
05-23-2011, 05:48 PM
Please, let's not get into pissing matches over who is a fan of whom. That is
when the discussion goes south, as it has so often in many other threads. (And
I speak as a hypocrite, I know.)

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:48 PM
:lol:

Yeah.. the lucky deflecting, short thrown TD in cinci... and then holding San Diego to 3 points in the second half. Yeah.. you REALLY proved me wrong! :lol:

I sure did.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:49 PM
I did not say Denver had a "superior" supporting cast. Anywhere. At any time.
And I did not say that Elway was not better than most (or everyone, possibly)
at carrying a team.

I provided documentation showing that Elway had a better supporting cast
than what was claimed of him. It shows that he had a very good supporting
cast. It was not in the same league as SF's, but I sincerely believe that SF
team was the best football team, overall, ever to be put on the field.

I know you didn't do it intentionally, Spikey, but please don't make my
comments more than they are . . . ;)

-----

They were pretty mediocre IMO.

spikerman
05-23-2011, 05:49 PM
I did not say Denver had a "superior" supporting cast. Anywhere. At any time.
And I did not say that Elway was not better than most (or everyone, possibly)
at carrying a team.

I provided documentation showing that Elway had a better supporting cast
than what was claimed of him. It shows that he had a very good supporting
cast. It was not in the same league as SF's, but I sincerely believe that SF
team was the best football team, overall, ever to be put on the field.

I know you didn't do it intentionally, Spikey, but please don't make my
comments more than they are . . . ;)

-----

You're right. The word "superior" was mine and I apologize if I mischaracterized your position.

Tned
05-23-2011, 05:53 PM
They were pretty mediocre IMO.

All but a few would agree that except for his last couple years with Shanahan, Elway was surrounded by some very mediocre talent. Those three SB losses was Elway carrying the team well beyond where anyone expected the talent level to get them.

How many games did Elway lead the team in running during that time frame? No decent protection from his O-line. No decent running game. It was Reeve's calling two runs, then a third down pass until the team was so far down in the fourth quarter that he had no choice but to let Elway do his thing and win the game, or leave it all on the field trying.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:54 PM
Please, let's not get into pissing matches over who is a fan of whom. That is
when the discussion goes south, as it has so often in many other threads. (And
I speak as a hypocrite, I know.)

-----

If it walks like a duck....


Nevermind.

Tned
05-23-2011, 05:55 PM
If it walks like a duck....


Nevermind.

Don't talk to Top about Orton lovers... errrr, I mean ducks....

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:56 PM
All but a few would agree that except for his last couple years with Shanahan, Elway was surrounded by some very mediocre talent. Those three SB losses was Elway carrying the team well beyond where anyone expected the talent level to get them.

How many games did Elway lead the team in running during that time frame? No decent protection from his O-line. No decent running game. It was Reeve's calling two runs, then a third down pass until the team was so far down in the fourth quarter that he had no choice but to let Elway do his thing and win the game, or leave it all on the field trying.

Thats why Elways the greatest Qb ever.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 05:57 PM
You're right. The word "superior" was mine and I apologize if I mischaracterized your position.

The main purpose of my post was to show how the rise and wane of the
respective supporting casts during Elway's career affected the W-L records.
I think you'll see a direct correlation there.

It is true, I believe, Elway could carry a team on his own back better than
anyone else who has ever played (with the possible exception of Norm Van
Brocklyn). That is why those statistics I provided are so significant, IMO . . .

-----

Tned
05-23-2011, 05:57 PM
Thats why Elways the greatest Qb ever.

And why we shoudln't be trying to use his 'great' supporting cast as an excuse for Orton's lack of wins.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 05:58 PM
Don't talk to Top about Orton lovers... errrr, I mean ducks....

:mad:


















:lol:



I love me some Brady Quinn.

Tned
05-23-2011, 05:59 PM
:mad:


















:lol:



I love me some Brady Quinn.

What can I say, I really liked Griese, so if some of these homers are googoo eyed over Orton, who am I to criticize them!! ;)

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 06:02 PM
And why we shoudln't be trying to use his 'great' supporting cast as an excuse for Orton's lack of wins.

Ok this is where Broncos fans have a HUGE problem.

Constantly comparing Elway to future Broncos Qbs will never end well. Ever.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 06:05 PM
It seems there are those on the board who are still trying to put words into my
mouth. Now, I'm supposed to have said Elway had a "great" supporting cast, I
guess.

So I challenge anyone to go back to my post in question (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1267524&postcount=61) -- you know, the one
that provided some bonafide documentation -- and come up with anything
where I used the term "great" in reference to Elway's supporting casts.

----

Tned
05-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Ok this is where Broncos fans have a HUGE problem.

Constantly comparing Elway to future Broncos Qbs will never end well. Ever.

To say Elway spoiled us and gave us unrealistic QB expectations is a huge understatement.

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:14 PM
Exactly. When the Colts don't win, few people point out that they are in the lower 3rd of the league in defense pretty much every year. It's because Manning didn't do enough to win. Likewise, when they do win, even when the defense or running game has a major role, Manning gets the accolades.
Really? All I ever heard was how they needed a run game/defense. That manning couldn't do it all by himself.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 06:14 PM
To say Elway spoiled us and gave us unrealistic QB expectations is a huge understatement.

No doubt.


Thats why discussing Broncos Qbs nowadays is hard. Fans are unreasonable with that postion.

Tned
05-23-2011, 06:19 PM
No doubt.


Thats why discussing Broncos Qbs nowadays is hard. Fans are unreasonable with that postion.

Both in terms of unrealistic expectations and defending their favorites and crucifying the ones that aren't their favorites.

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:20 PM
Hatred? No. Observation of the truth, is more like it.

We won our first six games of '09 when our defense held the opposing team to ZERO points in the second half. After that, we did not hold the opponent to 0 points in the second half, and the the record was 2-8.

Then in '10, our record with Orton is...3-9 while not keeping the opposing team to 0 points in the second half.

TELL ME WHERE I'M EXAGGERATING.
Lmao!
:rotfl:

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:26 PM
My prob with Orton is that he does not have that leadership quality. He can't handle pressure on the field. If he could do those 2 things he would be a good QB. Elway can see that he buckles under pressure when the game was in his hands. He through several interceptions in game winning drives. That is the biggest question Elway has, when down by 1 possession, who's hands do you want on the ball?
Show me a qb who doesn't throw int's late. They're taking extra chances, and the defense, if they're decent at all, plays differently.
Funny, but ortons called" too safe" when he doesn't throw pics....and now he" buckles" if he throws one.

:rolleyes:

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:28 PM
A quote from John Madden - The subject was actually Donovan McNabb,

He's as close to a one-man gang as anything in the NFL since John Elway in Denver.

http://msn.foxsports.com/home/story/NFL-ON-FOX-Conference-Call%253A--John-Madden

Contrary to popular belief, Elway did not have a great supporting cast in those first three Super Bowls. They were ok, but they were far inferior to the NFC teams they were playing.
Yea....we saw. ;)


55-10 anybody?

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Show me a qb who doesn't throw int's late. They're taking extra chances, and the defense, if they're decent at all, plays differently.
Funny, but ortons called" too safe" when he doesn't throw pics....and now he" buckles" if he throws one.

:rolleyes:

You're okay with his 1-5 record on those drives last season?

spikerman
05-23-2011, 06:31 PM
Yea....we saw. ;)


55-10 anybody?

It just shows how amazing he was that he could even get a team that weak to the Super Bowl.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 06:34 PM
You're okay with his 1-5 record on those drives last season?

Yeah we love that part of his game......:coffee:




Always trying to force those of us who think Ortons a decent Qb in the corner.....



Must be a Chris Simms fan! :lol:





j/k chaz dont get butt hurt.

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 06:35 PM
Yeah we love that part of his game......:coffee:




Always trying to force those of us who think Ortons a decent Qb in the corner.....



Must be a Chris Simms fan! :lol:





j/k chaz dont get butt hurt.
Why would I get butt hurt. Although, calling someone a Chris Simms fan is pretty low.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 06:36 PM
Why would I get butt hurt. Although, calling someone a Chris Simms fan is pretty low.

Almost as bad as calling someone an Orton fan, right Chaz? ;)

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 06:38 PM
Why would I get butt hurt. Although, calling someone a Chris Simms fan is pretty low.

:laugh:


Not much lower than one can get.....


Wait, Im sure there were maurice clarett fans.

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 06:38 PM
Almost as bad as calling someone an Orton fan, right Chaz? ;)

-----
Come on now Toppy, I aint that bad am I?

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:44 PM
And why we shoudln't be trying to use his 'great' supporting cast as an excuse for Orton's lack of wins.
BS.
Orton≠elway
There's prolly less than a handful in the league that can do what elway did, on his good days.

To say no qb needs good players around them
In order to win, is disingenuous.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Come on now Toppy, I aint that bad am I?

Well . . . can I at least falsely accuse you? :D

------

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:47 PM
You're okay with his 1-5 record on those drives last season?
On the team's? Absolutely not.

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:49 PM
It just shows how amazing he was that he could even get a team that weak to the Super Bowl.
Not going to disagree. Just wish there were fewer "Whichway Elway?" moments.

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 06:52 PM
Come on now Toppy, I aint that bad am I?

http://www.chicotown.com/pics/silky-logo.jpg




Im the greatest hata of em all!

Tned
05-23-2011, 06:55 PM
BS.
Orton≠elway
There's prolly less than a handful in the league that can do what elway did, on his good days.

To say no qb needs good players around them
In order to win, is disingenuous.
Players need a good QB as well. You make it sound like QB was the ONLY position not a problem.

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 06:56 PM
http://www.chicotown.com/pics/silky-logo.jpg




Im the greatest hata of em all!

Does that make me the "playa"?


http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/30/3089/WLDFF00Z/always-gangsta.jpg

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 06:57 PM
Players need a good QB as well. You make it sound like QB was the ONLY position not a problem.
Wow. Really, T?
:rolleyes:
(Now I'm torn)
For SnG's......who's better on the offense?

Bosco
05-23-2011, 07:08 PM
Well no ******* shit John. With mind blowing football revelations like that, no wonder you jumped right into an upper management role in the NFL. :rolleyes:

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 07:08 PM
Wow. Really, T?
:rolleyes:
(Now I'm torn)
For SnG's......who's better on the offense?

Clady, Lloyd, Tebow(at scoring)


But it doesn't matter. It's not about if Orton was the worst player on the team or not its about whether or not you think he can and should be upgraded. I think Tebow can do better than Orton in terms of wins and losses. No body is saying Orton is the reason we lost, some of just think he doesn't help enough in that category and that there are better options.

rcsodak
05-23-2011, 07:13 PM
Clady, Lloyd, Tebow(at scoring)


But it doesn't matter. It's not about if Orton was the worst player on the team or not its about whether or not you think he can and should be upgraded. I think Tebow can do better than Orton in terms of wins and losses. No body is saying Orton is the reason we lost, some of just think he doesn't help enough in that category and that there are better options.

Clady was shit last year. Lloyd caught the passes from orton. TT wasn't on the field when ko was.
But otherwise, yea....that's fair.

Anyhoo.... :deadhorse:

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 07:16 PM
A lot of what made our line look bad is the fact that Kyle Orton is one of the most easily tackled NFL players in history. Who gets nailed with the phantom sacks anyway? :confused:


And if Kyle Orton is our best player we are in deeper shit than anyone could imagine.

Lonestar
05-23-2011, 07:20 PM
if you asked Elway what it took to win a SuperBowl....i bet he'd also say that it takes a supreme effort by the WHOLE team.a great running game and adequate DEFENSE ! so he more than most realize that while you do need constantly good performance from your qb....that alone wont get you very far in the league.
that is how he was once known as a "big game bust"
ive told this one before but here is the joke that went around for almost a decade.......
why does john elway eat his cereal from a cup ?.........................
because he chokes on anything in a bowl !:shocked:

Unfortunaltely until he had a good D, not great but good and running game his team and he chocked in all those superblows


That seems to Be a blind spot to many. None Of the wining super bowl QBs did it by themselves they all had a TEAM around them.

While the QB gets the w-l it is perhaps the biggest misnomer there is in rating a QB. Even worse than QB rating system that ravage hates.

topscribe
05-23-2011, 07:31 PM
A lot of what made our line look bad is the fact that Kyle Orton is one of the most easily tackled NFL players in history. Who gets nailed with the phantom sacks anyway? :confused:


And if Kyle Orton is our best player we are in deeper shit than anyone could imagine.

Actually, no. You seem to be trying to correlate the number of sacks with the
quality of the O-line.

Orton was sacked 34 times, IIRC. Cutler 52 times. Vick 34 times. Would you say
Cutler and Vick were making the line look bad because they're easy to tackle?

What distressed many of us early in the season was not that Orton was
sacked a lot, but that he was hit a lot . . . and hard.

The O-line looked bad because it was bad.

-----

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 07:41 PM
Actually, no. You seem to be trying to correlate the number of sacks with the
quality of the O-line.

Orton was sacked 34 times, IIRC. Cutler 52 times. Vick 34 times. Would you say
Cutler and Vick were making the line look bad because they're easy to tackle?

What distressed many of us early in the season was not that Orton was
sacked a lot, but that he was hit a lot . . . and hard.

The O-line looked bad because it was bad.

-----

So you deny that Orton is easy to tackle?

topscribe
05-23-2011, 07:46 PM
So you deny that Orton is easy to tackle?

Is that what you think I said, Chaz?

Read it again . . .

-----

Tned
05-23-2011, 08:07 PM
Unfortunaltely until he had a good D, not great but good and running game his team and he chocked in all those superblows


That seems to Be a blind spot to many. None Of the wining super bowl QBs did it by themselves they all had a TEAM around them.

While the QB gets the w-l it is perhaps the biggest misnomer there is in rating a QB. Even worse than QB rating system that ravage hates.

Wow, now Elway was a choke??? Just, wow.

Http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/picard_facepalm.jpg

NorCalBronco7
05-23-2011, 08:14 PM
Clady, Lloyd, Tebow(at scoring)


But it doesn't matter. It's not about if Orton was the worst player on the team or not its about whether or not you think he can and should be upgraded. I think Tebow can do better than Orton in terms of wins and losses. No body is saying Orton is the reason we lost, some of just think he doesn't help enough in that category and that there are better options.

Orton was the Broncos 3rd best player on offense last year. Besides Clady and Lloyd, who did better on offense? Nobody.


If you feel Tebows a franchise Qb, cool. If you think he at least deserves a shot, fine. But Tebow only played 3 games. 3.

Tebow may have a wonderful year. He may completely suck. None of us know right now. Not after 3 games. There are still major questions about Tebows ability to throw in the NFL. Have those been answered in those 3 games?

Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win next year considering he is a marginal winner in the league and given the fact there are still uncertainty about how Tebow can do in a full season or what that looks like.

But Tebow should start next year.



Best player on offense last year was Lloyd. HANDS DOWN. His season was one of the best season ever by a Broncos reciever.

Clady did not have a great year (or even good, for his potenial). But he was the Broncos best lineman last year and arguably best player behind LLoyd. He does a better job in the run game than Kuper (who is a very solid job at RG) and did an okay job pass protection. Thats something all Broncos lineman besides Clady cant say. He was recovering from an injury as well, but I think he had a good year.

3rd would be Orton.








A lot of what made our line look bad is the fact that Kyle Orton is one of the most easily tackled NFL players in history. Who gets nailed with the phantom sacks anyway? :confused:


And if Kyle Orton is our best player we are in deeper shit than anyone could imagine.

How many Qbs arent easily tackled? :laugh:

Let me guess your man love response ."BUT Tebow can!" :elefant:
Maybe.


The Broncos offensive line being hurt and in general TERRIBLE last year was not Ortons fault, even though he didnt help by escaping pressure (like that one guy i know). He takes sacks like a ***** but he is at least smart enough to know better.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 08:26 PM
Well no ******* shit John. With mind blowing football revelations like that, no wonder you jumped right into an upper management role in the NFL. :rolleyes:

I doubt we'll see Elway do stupid shit like drafting trading a 1st round pick to move up in the 2nd round or bringing in a fa defensive end only to cut him before he's ever played a down for the Broncos.

Tned
05-23-2011, 08:28 PM
Someone on mania posted that Vic Lombardi said on the radio this morning that his Broncos sources say that Orton would definitely be traded, but after Kolb sets the value. Only way he isn't traded is if the lockout rolls into the season start and there is no normal TC.

Agent of Orange
05-23-2011, 08:39 PM
i'd say lets see what Orton can do with a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times when going to the playoffs like Elway did. We were so bad at voting for Elway he may be the only player to get voted into the Pro Bowl with more Interceptions then Touchdowns.

The game was different then. Teams threw the ball down the field more when they had a QB with a bigger arm. There wasnt as much dink and dunk or WCO during Elways 80s SB years.

This is one thing the QB rating has done to people. People have been conditioned by this stat into bowing down to it when the truth is that theres bias in it, which favors dink and dunk offenses/QBs.


It took John until he was 38 years old to finally win the big game, and he only ever posted more passing yards in his entire career 2 or 3 times then Orton's past 2 Broncos seasons. Before that fans were calling Elway, "Jim Kelly Part 2".

The rules are totally different now. The NFL has become a joke in how its opened up the passing game. Elway played during a time where the rules encouraged balance. How the rules have evolved since Elway was in the league hardly does that. Its so passer friendly, a lot of teams only run the ball in a token way.


This team can't win games if it gives up 30 points a game. Doesn't matter who it is.

Its going to seem contradictory for me to reference Orton's low QB rating when it matters, but since the QB rating favors Orton more than it did Elway for much of his career, you would expect it to be a lot better when it matters most, but Orton's nowhere close to Elway during times of a game when it matters most. Shanahan used to say that the real measure of a QB is in how he performs on 3rd downs. Theres a lot to that.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 08:43 PM
Someone on mania posted that Vic Lombardi said on the radio this morning that his Broncos sources say that Orton would definitely be traded, but after Kolb sets the value. Only way he isn't traded is if the lockout rolls into the season start and there is no normal TC.

If Orton is traded I wonder if Fox would try to bring in a veteran quarterback like Delhomme?

Agent of Orange
05-23-2011, 08:44 PM
Wow, now Elway was a choke??? Just, wow.

Http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/picard_facepalm.jpg

...and people sometimes forget that before Denver beat Green Bay in 1997 (actually the 98 calendar year), the NFC won every super bowl from the 84 season to the 96 season. Thats 13 years of the NFC winning. Only someone with a very narrow perspective would blame Elway for those losses. But then again it didnt make sense at all once the suggestion was made that Elway wasnt clutch.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 08:45 PM
If Orton is traded I wonder if Fox would try to bring in a veteran quarterback like Delhomme?

Probably.. .. would seem to make the most sense. Someone that has been there, done that, and can handle the back-up role as a mentor and teacher. Quinn certainly doesn't have that clout you would want as a teacher to Tebow.

Juriga72
05-23-2011, 08:45 PM
Actually, no. You seem to be trying to correlate the number of sacks with the
quality of the O-line.

Orton was sacked 34 times, IIRC. Cutler 52 times. Vick 34 times. Would you say
Cutler and Vick were making the line look bad because they're easy to tackle?

What distressed many of us early in the season was not that Orton was
sacked a lot, but that he was hit a lot . . . and hard.

The O-line looked bad because it was bad.

-----

Um.... Here's the stat line for the Indy game......

57 pass attempts

1 sack
3 hits


lmao..."Hit hard and often"
Mathis-11 sacks on the year
Freeny-10.5 sacks

T.K.O.
05-23-2011, 08:48 PM
If Orton is traded I wonder if Fox would try to bring in a veteran quarterback like Delhomme?

:confused::shocked::mad:

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 08:56 PM
Probably.. .. would seem to make the most sense. Someone that has been there, done that, and can handle the back-up role as a mentor and teacher. Quinn certainly doesn't have that clout you would want as a teacher to Tebow.

True but I don't think he would have the unprofessional attitude that Orton displayed.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 09:05 PM
:confused::shocked::mad:

Why are you confused, shocked, and mad?

Npba900
05-23-2011, 09:06 PM
After John retired, they were selling the John Elway Official Commemorative Envelope in the post offices here.

On the front of the envelope is 3 different action pictures of John, and lists his Career Highlights:

51,475 Passing Yards. Superbowl XXXIII MVP
300 TD Passes. Started in 5 Super Bowls
47 Game Saving Drives. 148 Games Won
Selected to 9 Pro Bowls. 50+ Bronco Records
Back to Back Super Bowl Victories ('98/'99)
Only QB to pass for 3,000 yds and rush for
200 yds in 7 straight seasons (1985-1991)

I don't know how that compares to other QB's at the time, but fairly impressive.

Excellent points. Elway is also in the top 10 inrushing yards for QB's. The first 3 teams Elways took to the SB's were not a very talented bunch of team mates. In fact Elway was the only player from the first 3 SB teams that is in the HOF. Its a fact, Aikman or Montana and Marino could not have led those Bronco teams to the SB as Elway.

Montana, Kelly and Young were surrounded by talent and so was Aikman. Add to the fact that Elway played for Dan Reeves his first 9-10 years in the league and Reeves had a very conservative offensive scheme and simple failed to draft and surround Elway with the talent necessary to put up the stats that Montana, Kelly, Aikman, and Young enjoyed.

Once Elway was allowed to play in a QB friendly system with FA talent his stats and TD-Int rate improved immensely under Wade Philip's and Shanahan. With Elway's arm, his scrambling ability to extend plays and his durability, made Elway ahead of his time and force to reckoned with.

The mere fact Elway has the NFL record for sacks of 540 plus, is a testament to his toughness and durability. No way could Montana, Young, Aikman, and Kelly could have endured over 500 sacks. In 1983, Al Davis was positioning the Raiders to draft Elway #1 and had he done so, history would have been different. Elway would have gone to a proven winning franchise surrounded by talent. No doubt the Raiders and Elway would gone to many SB's in the 80's and 90's.

I believe had Elway not endured over 500 sacks in his 16 year career, Elway could have been healthy enough to play another 4 years. Had this happened and Elway was able to play until 2002 and the talent already assembled, Denver could have won another 2 or 3 SB's. Imagine that!:D

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 09:21 PM
True but I don't think he would have the unprofessional attitude that Orton displayed.

I think Delhomme knows his time in the NFL is now to be a back-up. Orton may have some more time as a starter, but merely as a place-holder. So I think someone like Delhomme would be a perfect KIND of player to get.....

I can't blame Orton for wanting to be a starter. In fact, I would be even more disappointed if he didn't. But Orton's time is nearly up as having a chance to be a starter.

TXBRONC
05-23-2011, 09:34 PM
I think Delhomme knows his time in the NFL is now to be a back-up. Orton may have some more time as a starter, but merely as a place-holder. So I think someone like Delhomme would be a perfect KIND of player to get.....

I can't blame Orton for wanting to be a starter. In fact, I would be even more disappointed if he didn't. But Orton's time is nearly up as having a chance to be a starter.

If comes to pass I think Delhomme would be a good fit.

BroncoStud
05-23-2011, 11:14 PM
If comes to pass I think Delhomme would be a good fit.

Dude, Delhomme is terrible. He has dead arm. Complete waste of a roster spot.

Ravage!!!
05-23-2011, 11:33 PM
Dude, Delhomme is terrible. He has dead arm. Complete waste of a roster spot.

Completely disagree. Has nothing to do with wanting/needing Delhomme to get on the field. It has EVERYTHING to do with having a veteran QB that can be a mentor and teacher to Tebow. Someone that can go over game film with, someone that can talk with him on the sidelines, someone that can help him prepare, and what to look for with certain calls during game-time situations.

Jim McMahon was NEVER expected to play behind Brett Favre, but he was the PERFECT choice to be a sideline presence for Brett early on.

chazoe60
05-23-2011, 11:36 PM
Orton was the Broncos 3rd best player on offense last year. Besides Clady and Lloyd, who did better on offense? Nobody.


If you feel Tebows a franchise Qb, cool. If you think he at least deserves a shot, fine. But Tebow only played 3 games. 3.

Tebow may have a wonderful year. He may completely suck. None of us know right now. Not after 3 games. There are still major questions about Tebows ability to throw in the NFL. Have those been answered in those 3 games?

Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win next year considering he is a marginal winner in the league and given the fact there are still uncertainty about how Tebow can do in a full season or what that looks like.

But Tebow should start next year.



Best player on offense last year was Lloyd. HANDS DOWN. His season was one of the best season ever by a Broncos reciever.

Clady did not have a great year (or even good, for his potenial). But he was the Broncos best lineman last year and arguably best player behind LLoyd. He does a better job in the run game than Kuper (who is a very solid job at RG) and did an okay job pass protection. Thats something all Broncos lineman besides Clady cant say. He was recovering from an injury as well, but I think he had a good year.

3rd would be Orton.









How many Qbs arent easily tackled? :laugh:

Let me guess your man love response ."BUT Tebow can!" :elefant:
Maybe.


The Broncos offensive line being hurt and in general TERRIBLE last year was not Ortons fault, even though he didnt help by escaping pressure (like that one guy i know). He takes sacks like a ***** but he is at least smart enough to know better.


Why do you always assume I have man love for Tebow? What I have is disdain for a cowardly, quitting Orton. There is a difference.

Lonestar
05-24-2011, 12:31 AM
Same happened with Cutler. People that loved Plummer, hated Cutler because he replaced him.

Your point about the pick sixes also has a parallel in what fans did with Cutler. How many posts have we read in here about him being an RZ INT throwing machine, when in fact is TD/INT ratio in the red zone in Denver was something like 34-4 (going by memory, but that is real close to what it was, maybe 27-4).

Often people draw very harsh (and inaccurate) conclusions about a QB from a handful of plays.

That be true, BUT some like myself had no use for jay because we needed a DT instead of a QB.
OUR QB at the time was coming off a career year, one that he had studied all off season and had improved all areas of his game.
IMO mikey just wanted a new toy and could not help himself and traded up to get a head case. When for going on a decade we really needed DL specifically DT to improve the D. can have the worlds best DBs if they have to cover all day they become mediocre or if the running backs gash the D they become small LB's defending the run. a total waste of Champs talent

But that has all been rehashed a gazillion times. IMHO.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 06:44 AM
Dude, Delhomme is terrible. He has dead arm. Complete waste of a roster spot.

To you yes but not to me friend because he wouldn't be here to compete for the starting position.

Juriga72
05-24-2011, 06:54 AM
So lets again re-cap for the Orton crowd:

#1- QB starting record has nothing to do with the QB UNLESS its Kyle Orton and then "He just wins", "His record as a starter at home is awesome" or now "You cannot win when the other team scores 10 points...because (Insert injury excuse/lack of running game)"

#2-Stats for Qb only count when its Kyle Orton, you cannot use them to show anything unless its "Look at the record pace Kyle was on before his injury". But looking at Denverbronco.com the:

"#1 passing yards leader for ONE year-4526 yards 2008"- Jay Cutler
"Most passing attempts single season- 616 (2008)" Jay Cutler
"Most completions for one year-384 (2008)"-Jay Cutler
"Highest comp % one year- 62.3% (2008)-Jay Cutler

ALL with a defense giving up "30 points a game"

#3-Only Kyle Orton can have a injury that can then be used as a excuse for poor play-
See Kyle's injury history/benching in:
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010

ANY other quarterback who says.. loses 30 pounds in a two month stretch is "Just a sissy type crybaby"

#4- When a qb plays with a top 5 defense and/ or a top 5 running game "THEN you can show just how good a leader he is". Like in 2005 when Kyle threw 9 td passes for the year and got benched at halftime winning a game while "leading the Bears to a 11-5 record"

#5- John Elway is "100% correct when he said Tim Tebow needs to work on being a NFL qb"

#6-John Elway is utterly lost when he says "Kyle Orton needs to win more games"

#7-John Elway shows how little football he really understand when he said "Jay Cutler is not the kind of guy you give up on"

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 08:19 AM
Completely disagree. Has nothing to do with wanting/needing Delhomme to get on the field. It has EVERYTHING to do with having a veteran QB that can be a mentor and teacher to Tebow. Someone that can go over game film with, someone that can talk with him on the sidelines, someone that can help him prepare, and what to look for with certain calls during game-time situations.

Jim McMahon was NEVER expected to play behind Brett Favre, but he was the PERFECT choice to be a sideline presence for Brett early on.

Can't we do better than Delhomme though? There should be enough veterans around that aren't horrible to sign and mentor the kids.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 08:40 AM
Can't we do better than Delhomme though? There should be enough veterans around that aren't horrible to sign and mentor the kids.

Rav and I don't agree with you that Delhomme would be terrible. Even going with your assessment there are not that many good back quarterbacks. If Orton is traded that still a big if I think we could do a lot worse than having a guy around who played the vast majority of his career for Fox.

MileHighCrew
05-24-2011, 09:08 AM
Oh TX normally I read your posts and it is like your inside my head, but you are way off, Delhomme is horrible, I would rather have Simms back and that makes me sick to think about.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 09:28 AM
Oh TX normally I read your posts and it is like your inside my head, but you are way off, Delhomme is horrible, I would rather have Simms back and that makes me sick to think about.

I'm only saying he might be ok in the short run. It be like 1994 when Shanahan arrived and he brought Brad Musgrave with him. Musgrave wasn't a very good but he was brought in primarily for tutoring purposes. Marc Bulger was also mentioned as a back up quarterback prospect but he's been as beat up as Delhomme. The bottom line is there really are not many good back up quarterbacks in League.

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 09:29 AM
So lets again re-cap for the Orton crowd:

#1- QB starting record has nothing to do with the QB UNLESS its Kyle Orton and then "He just wins", "His record as a starter at home is awesome" or now "You cannot win when the other team scores 10 points...because (Insert injury excuse/lack of running game)"

#2-Stats for Qb only count when its Kyle Orton, you cannot use them to show anything unless its "Look at the record pace Kyle was on before his injury". But looking at Denverbronco.com the:

"#1 passing yards leader for ONE year-4526 yards 2008"- Jay Cutler
"Most passing attempts single season- 616 (2008)" Jay Cutler
"Most completions for one year-384 (2008)"-Jay Cutler
"Highest comp % one year- 62.3% (2008)-Jay Cutler

ALL with a defense giving up "30 points a game"

#3-Only Kyle Orton can have a injury that can then be used as a excuse for poor play-
See Kyle's injury history/benching in:
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010

ANY other quarterback who says.. loses 30 pounds in a two month stretch is "Just a sissy type crybaby"

#4- When a qb plays with a top 5 defense and/ or a top 5 running game "THEN you can show just how good a leader he is". Like in 2005 when Kyle threw 9 td passes for the year and got benched at halftime winning a game while "leading the Bears to a 11-5 record"

#5- John Elway is "100% correct when he said Tim Tebow needs to work on being a NFL qb"

#6-John Elway is utterly lost when he says "Kyle Orton needs to win more games"

#7-John Elway shows how little football he really understand when he said "Jay Cutler is not the kind of guy you give up on"

1. Orton was on pace for 4500 yard plus season, and likely to follow suit in the rest of the categories. The only difference Orton wasn't doing it with a Rocket Arm, and dial-a-back. We lost Torrain in about 10 attempts, and he was suppose to be a great down hill runner for us, Payton Hillis came in and was a beast, Selvin Young was even getting us 100 yard games, and the list goes on, till when we dialed up Tatum Bell who was selling rotory phones to old age homes in alabama.

2. So, the mere fact Cutlers defense giving up 30 points or more the team lost every one of those games also. But when his defense gave up under 20 points, the Broncos won 5 out of 6 of those games. So if your trying to make a point that Cutler was winning a bunch of games for us when our defense was giving up 30 points a game, thats not exactly the real picture now is it.

3. Kyle Orton was never really a full time starter until he came to Denver. In 2 seasons, he has almost 8000 yards passing in Denver. Orton was 3rd in the league for total yards the past season. Lovie Smith was on his way out of Chicago until he brought in a quarterback who came from a passing system and saved his career. Lovie Smith is no offensive genius, and he coached in one of the weakest divisions in football since his tenure. Rex Grossman really looks franchise on the bench now doesn't he.

4. Kyle Orton came in as a rookie and led his team to the playoffs as a rookie with 9 TDs, the past while he joins quarterbacks such as Rothlisburger, Sanchaz, Matt Ryan, and infact only 8 other QB's in the entire history have led teams to the playoffs. When Flacco did it, his rookie season he only had 14 touchdowns, and had 12 picks. Im not sure if any Rookie QB has ever led there teams and won the superbowl in a rookie season, like the kind of leader you say Orton is not. 11-5 record as a rookie is solid. We all know what he is capable of doing as a rookie, and leading teams to playoffs and such with half decent run games, and defenses. So why do we want to get rid of him, when he is capable of 3rd most yards in the league, and one of the biggest play QB's with plays over 20 yards and 40 yards in the league. It doesnt make sense, because we developed Orton into a capable QB, and now fans want to get rid of him. I'd like to see what Orton can do with a good run game, and defense.

5. John Elway im sorry took to many hits when he played and seems punch drunk at times with decisions that are being made in the Front Office. I know he is not the judge, jury, and executioner, but he does have a ton of influence in the office. He is completely wrong about run-option plays to the flat QB, Tim Tebow. Tebow will never be franchise. Chris Leak is likely to pan out as an NFL QB before Tim Tebow ever makes it with his "Catapult" release.

6. John Elway never played Defense, so i guess he would be lost for words when he says its about winning. The whole scapegoat for the word "winning" is pretty construed. The word has no meaning or concept, when the word "winning" is blamed on the QB and the rest of the team is over looked. That is the wrong way to build a team, and its a bad concept to have. The concept should be "team wins", and "team work". not "kyle orton" and "winning". The players don't call out the Front office and say we need "Management", "Good Drafting", and "Better Decision Making" to pull out more wins.

7. Im with you when Elway doesn't know a thing about running a team, drafting, and making good decisions. Sure we owe it to him after he gave us a couple of Super Bowl wins which he didn't win until he was 38 years old, he almost came out of NFL history with the tag "Jim Kelly Part 2".

MileHighCrew
05-24-2011, 09:57 AM
I'm only saying he might be ok in the short run. It be like 1994 when Shanahan arrived and he brought Brad Musgrave with him. Musgrave wasn't a very good but he was brought in primarily for tutoring purposes. Marc Bulger was also mentioned as a back up quarterback prospect but he's been as beat up as Delhomme. The bottom line is there really are not many good back up quarterbacks in League.

You are right there are not many good ones. Still to see Delhomme wearing Broncos colors would be hard to take...... Unless it lead to us drafting Andrew Luck... .nope not going to go there and derail this thread ;)

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 10:06 AM
Delhomme would be the 3rd string QB, if brought in... nothing more. Nothing more than a "QB teacher." That would be his role on the team. Delhomme isn't nearly as bad as some of you are saying. He's not who I want starting, but the guy has been in the league a LONG time and knows what it takes to be successful in the NFL. Thats what you need on the sidelines.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 10:09 AM
1. Orton was on pace for 4500 yard plus season, and likely to follow suit in the rest of the categories. The only difference Orton wasn't doing it with a Rocket Arm, and dial-a-back. We lost Torrain in about 10 attempts, and he was suppose to be a great down hill runner for us, Payton Hillis came in and was a beast, Selvin Young was even getting us 100 yard games, and the list goes on, till when we dialed up Tatum Bell who was selling rotory phones to old age homes in alabama.

2. So, the mere fact Cutlers defense giving up 30 points or more the team lost every one of those games also. But when his defense gave up under 20 points, the Broncos won 5 out of 6 of those games. So if your trying to make a point that Cutler was winning a bunch of games for us when our defense was giving up 30 points a game, thats not exactly the real picture now is it.

3. Kyle Orton was never really a full time starter until he came to Denver. In 2 seasons, he has almost 8000 yards passing in Denver. Orton was 3rd in the league for total yards the past season. Lovie Smith was on his way out of Chicago until he brought in a quarterback who came from a passing system and saved his career. Lovie Smith is no offensive genius, and he coached in one of the weakest divisions in football since his tenure. Rex Grossman really looks franchise on the bench now doesn't he.

4. Kyle Orton came in as a rookie and led his team to the playoffs as a rookie with 9 TDs, the past while he joins quarterbacks such as Rothlisburger, Sanchaz, Matt Ryan, and infact only 8 other QB's in the entire history have led teams to the playoffs. When Flacco did it, his rookie season he only had 14 touchdowns, and had 12 picks. Im not sure if any Rookie QB has ever led there teams and won the superbowl in a rookie season, like the kind of leader you say Orton is not. 11-5 record as a rookie is solid. We all know what he is capable of doing as a rookie, and leading teams to playoffs and such with half decent run games, and defenses. So why do we want to get rid of him, when he is capable of 3rd most yards in the league, and one of the biggest play QB's with plays over 20 yards and 40 yards in the league. It doesnt make sense, because we developed Orton into a capable QB, and now fans want to get rid of him. I'd like to see what Orton can do with a good run game, and defense.

5. John Elway im sorry took to many hits when he played and seems punch drunk at times with decisions that are being made in the Front Office. I know he is not the judge, jury, and executioner, but he does have a ton of influence in the office. He is completely wrong about run-option plays to the flat QB, Tim Tebow. Tebow will never be franchise. Chris Leak is likely to pan out as an NFL QB before Tim Tebow ever makes it with his "Catapult" release.

6. John Elway never played Defense, so i guess he would be lost for words when he says its about winning. The whole scapegoat for the word "winning" is pretty construed. The word has no meaning or concept, when the word "winning" is blamed on the QB and the rest of the team is over looked. That is the wrong way to build a team, and its a bad concept to have. The concept should be "team wins", and "team work". not "kyle orton" and "winning". The players don't call out the Front office and say we need "Management", "Good Drafting", and "Better Decision Making" to pull out more wins.

7. Im with you when Elway doesn't know a thing about running a team, drafting, and making good decisions. Sure we owe it to him after he gave us a couple of Super Bowl wins which he didn't win until he was 38 years old, he almost came out of NFL history with the tag "Jim Kelly Part 2".

What does Orton was on pace to throw for 4500 yards and likely to follow suit in the rest of the categories? If you mean he would have throw in neighborhood of 30 touchdowns that would nothing but pure speculations. The cold hard fact is that he was close to that pace for awhile fell off it long before he was "injured".

Very few people care that Orton threw for nearly 8,000 yards what most care about is his piss poor record of 11 wins against 20 loses.

He led the Bears to the playoffs? Ah no. The defense did, with only 9 touchdowns on the year and under 2,000 yards pass is far cry leading anything.

What do you mean he was never really the starter in Chicago? :confused: In '05 and '08 combined he started 30 games.

Finally, Orton is journeyman quarterback who is ok and wont lose you a lot games as long everything else is in working order. On the other hand he wont win you many games even with a great supporting cast.

topscribe
05-24-2011, 10:17 AM
What does Orton was on pace to throw for 4500 yards and likely to follow suit in the rest of the categories? If you mean he would have throw in neighborhood of 30 touchdowns that would nothing but pure speculations. The cold hard fact is that he was close to that pace for awhile fell off it long before he was "injured".

Very few people care that Orton threw for nearly 8,000 yards what most care about is his piss poor record of 11 wins against 20 loses.

He led the Bears to the playoffs? Ah no. The defense did, with only 9 touchdowns on the year and under 2,000 yards pass is far cry leading anything.

What do you mean he was never really the starter in Chicago? :confused: In '05 and '08 combined he started 30 games.

Finally, Orton is journeyman quarterback who is ok and wont lose you a lot games as long everything else is in working order. On the other hand he wont win you many games even with a great supporting cast.

Once again, 11 wins against 20 losses is Orton's own record. He alone is
responsible. Not that LAST PLACE DEFENSE or that pathetic excuse for a
running game. That is the way it comes across when it is expressed like this.

Yet his 21 wins against 13 losses in Chicago were because of that GREAT
DEFENSE. He was just along for the ride.

Holy hypocrisy, Batman! :eek:

-----

MileHighCrew
05-24-2011, 10:21 AM
Can't have it both ways, Top is right, but that doesn't mean Orton wasn't part of the problem either.

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 10:29 AM
Can't have it both ways, Top is right, but that doesn't mean Orton wasn't part of the problem either.

Yes and no. People don't say that the GOOD QBs only won because of their defense. You don't see fans around the NFL saying this about Manning, Brady, Brees....because they have actually stepped up and WON games for their teams. Fans aren't just RANDOMLY choosing what QBs they feel win only when they have a stud defense. They are making these comments about QBs that haven't proved to be winners UNLESS they have stud defenses.

You hear these comments "they won because of their defense" about QBs like Dilfer, Rypien, Johnson. In todays' NFL examples are Flacco, Sanchez,.... and Orton. Why? Because they couldn't win otherwise. Orton is in this class, and its not just because people around the NFL want to pick on him...its because he fits the bill.

Orton will not LOSE you games... but he won't WIN you games either. He's not going to take a mediocre team and make them good. He's not going to take a bad team and make them mediocre. He's going to play safe and not throw INTs while throwing the safe pass. Thats great if the team playing against you isn't scoring.

But if you have a bad team, you will stay bad with Orton as your QB. If you are a mediocre team, you will stay mediocre with Orton as your QB. If you have a GOOD team around you, then Orton will be the guy that will keep you good... but he isn't WINNING you games.

nevcraw
05-24-2011, 10:42 AM
his 21 wins against 13 losses in Chicago were because of that GREAT
DEFENSE. He was just along for the ride.

-----

I totally agree with this statement. Orton was along for the ride. He can play decent football for a team with with complimentary parts but will never be able to carry a team consistant winning. Every team in the league requires their QB to pull it out a few times a season.. That is not Orton.

topscribe
05-24-2011, 10:52 AM
Can't have it both ways, Top is right, but that doesn't mean Orton wasn't part of the problem either.

Right you are, but I don't think that qualification is necessary at this point. That
has been hashed, rehashed, and hashed some more.

However, as Elway expressed, right or wrong, the W-L record reflects on the
QB. As I mentioned, the double-standard I have seen here should be exposed
and challenged. If the losses are Orton's, then so are the wins . . .

-----

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 10:55 AM
Can't have it both ways, Top is right, but that doesn't mean Orton wasn't part of the problem either.

I don't think I'm trying to have it both ways. I was addressing a particular issue that Hammered brought up about how Orton as rookie lead the Bears to the playoffs. Looking at his stat line from that year there is just no he lead the way as far winning games.

turftoad
05-24-2011, 10:59 AM
Yes and no. People don't say that the GOOD QBs only won because of their defense. You don't see fans around the NFL saying this about Manning, Brady, Brees....because they have actually stepped up and WON games for their teams. Fans aren't just RANDOMLY choosing what QBs they feel win only when they have a stud defense. They are making these comments about QBs that haven't proved to be winners UNLESS they have stud defenses.

You hear these comments "they won because of their defense" about QBs like Dilfer, Rypien, Johnson. In todays' NFL examples are Flacco, Sanchez,.... and Orton. Why? Because they couldn't win otherwise. Orton is in this class, and its not just because people around the NFL want to pick on him...its because he fits the bill.

Orton will not LOSE you games... but he won't WIN you games either. He's not going to take a mediocre team and make them good. He's not going to take a bad team and make them mediocre. He's going to play safe and not throw INTs while throwing the safe pass. Thats great if the team playing against you isn't scoring.

But if you have a bad team, you will stay bad with Orton as your QB. If you are a mediocre team, you will stay mediocre with Orton as your QB. If you have a GOOD team around you, then Orton will be the guy that will keep you good... but he isn't WINNING you games.

Exactly!! He's a decent QB but not a closer. He's not a come from behind guy. He has the ability to keep you in games but not win them if the pressure is on.

topscribe
05-24-2011, 11:01 AM
I totally agree with this statement. Orton was along for the ride. He can play decent football for a team with with complimentary parts but will never be able to carry a team consistant winning. Every team in the league requires their QB to pull it out a few times a season.. That is not Orton.

See here? ^^ Even after I bring it out, they are going to persist. The losses are
Orton's, but the wins are not. (I'll bet someone will now rip also this sentence
out of context, just as it was here.)

Yes, even after my post where I showed even a G.O.A.T. needs complementary
parts (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155), they are going to persist.

This place reeks of double-standard . . .



I don't think I'm trying to have it both ways. I was addressing a particular issue that Hammered brought up about how Orton as rookie lead the Bears to the playoffs. Looking at his stat line from that year there is just no he lead the way as far winning games.

Right. Here is another example. The losses are Orton's, but the wins are not . . . :tsk:


-----

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:01 AM
I totally agree with this statement. Orton was along for the ride. He can play decent football for a team with with complimentary parts but will never be able to carry a team consistant winning. Every team in the league requires their QB to pull it out a few times a season.. That is not Orton.

Nobody in the league would say Orton is the kind of guy that is going to come in, and save your franchise. So why do the fans place blame on Orton for not winning, when its been bad coaching, bad drafting, and bad management. The inability to get us some good defense, and good run game, and some cornerstones who have promise and a long future with the team.

They made bad decisions getting rid of Shanahan, and hiring McDaniels. They made another bad decision by letting go of Mike Nolan. We were down to Studsville as a Coach, and now we are sitting on the 4th coaching system "Shanny, McDaniels, Studsville, and now Fox", over the past 2 seasons. Who's fault is it for all that mess, and letting go of Payton Hillis, Marshall, and Cutler. All of sudden, it's Orton's fault because the Management can't keep a team, or coaching together. No, man, thats not how it works, we have to look at the real picture. Im surprised Orton had the success he did, and 2 years ago, I was saying the same things most of the posters are saying today. But thats not the case.

For those who say he will never be a Manning, Brees, or Brady. you are all right. He will never be be like Manning, who has averaged over 4000 yards a season since he came to the NFL. Infact, I think when the writting is on the wall, Manning will go down as the greatest Regular season performer of all time, with the all Passing records. Manning will break Farves TD Record, and hold most of the records for a long time. Brady is still overshadowed with his superbowl wins with the "Spygate" incident, and how the Patriots cheated for such a long time taping Superbowl walk throughs. During that superbowl run, Brady enjoyed the 2nd Ranked Defense, the 3rd ranked Defense, and the 5th ranked defense for those wins. Rodney Harrison was considered the most dirty player in the NFL, and the exotic blitzes the "mad" genius Belicheck designed was nasty. Orton will never be a Drew Bree's either.

We have a guy who will get you 3800 yards, have a 2:1 touchdown ratio on the worst defensive team in the league, and a run game that nears the basement thus far.

If it ain't broke. don't fix it.

turftoad
05-24-2011, 11:08 AM
If it ain't broke. don't fix it.

4-12 is not concidered broke??? :confused:

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed. The QB position is one of those things.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 11:12 AM
4-12 is not concidered broke??? :confused:

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed. The QB position is one of those things.

If 4-12 aint broke then I don't know what is.

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:15 AM
4-12 is not concidered broke??? :confused:

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed. The QB position is one of those things.

Management, bad coaching systems, trading away your Franchise QB, WR, RB in that span.

Mike Nolan was hired last season, and the Broncos were talking playoffs last season. This season Mike Nolan is gone, same with the defense. Look at the 32nd Ranked Defense, and the 4th Coaching system in 2 years. Thats a broken system.

Lonestar
05-24-2011, 11:18 AM
Players need a good QB as well. You make it sound like QB was the ONLY position not a problem.

To most that are not Tebow lovers or Orton haters they look logically at the issue and see that QB was the least if our problems on offense last year.

No one is claiming to be a pro bowler or HOF candidate, just that considering the lack of running game, oline instability till later in the year, and having to score 30+ points Agamemnon because the ST or defense allowed short fields or no ability to stop the run whatsoever.
Orton was not the cause for all of the losses last year.

Just as Tebow did not lose two games last year all b y himself. The other parts of the game/team contributed to them.

If anything Orton steped up his game last year, over 09 making longer passes downfield to other Than Marshall and the bubble screens.

I repeat that NO ONE is calling him a pro bowl QB just better than many haters proclaim.

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:19 AM
Elway won superbowls with top 5 defenses. Brady won with top 5 defenses. Rothlischeesburger won with top 5 defenses. So the trend us usually such. Have a solid defense who can keep an average of 30 points a game like the Broncos last season, and you might have a chance at winning.

I don't see how Orton is responsible for a bad record. If you guys want to look at a great story about a franchise who was simply bad because of management. Look no further then the Detroit Lions. Because thats what Broncos are starting to remind me of the past while. A string of bad coaching, bad drafting, bad deals, bad contracts. It's no surprise that most of our trades have been with the Lions the past few seasons.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 11:20 AM
Nobody in the league would say Orton is the kind of guy that is going to come in, and save your franchise. So why do the fans place blame on Orton for not winning, when its been bad coaching, bad drafting, and bad management. The inability to get us some good defense, and good run game, and some cornerstones who have promise and a long future with the team.

They made bad decisions getting rid of Shanahan, and hiring McDaniels. They made another bad decision by letting go of Mike Nolan. We were down to Studsville as a Coach, and now we are sitting on the 4th coaching system "Shanny, McDaniels, Studsville, and now Fox", over the past 2 seasons. Who's fault is it for all that mess, and letting go of Payton Hillis, Marshall, and Cutler. All of sudden, it's Orton's fault because the Management can't keep a team, or coaching together. No, man, thats not how it works, we have to look at the real picture. Im surprised Orton had the success he did, and 2 years ago, I was saying the same things most of the posters are saying today. But thats not the case.

For those who say he will never be a Manning, Brees, or Brady. you are all right. He will never be be like Manning, who has averaged over 4000 yards a season since he came to the NFL. Infact, I think when the writting is on the wall, Manning will go down as the greatest Regular season performer of all time, with the all Passing records. Manning will break Farves TD Record, and hold most of the records for a long time. Brady is still overshadowed with his superbowl wins with the "Spygate" incident, and how the Patriots cheated for such a long time taping Superbowl walk throughs. During that superbowl run, Brady enjoyed the 2nd Ranked Defense, the 3rd ranked Defense, and the 5th ranked defense for those wins. Rodney Harrison was considered the most dirty player in the NFL, and the exotic blitzes the "mad" genius Belicheck designed was nasty. Orton will never be a Drew Bree's either.

We have a guy who will get you 3800 yards, have a 2:1 touchdown ratio on the worst defensive team in the league, and a run game that nears the basement thus far.

If it ain't broke. don't fix it.

Mediocre isn't good enough. Sounds like you need to be a fan of the Chiefs or Browns. In Denver, we (the fans) expect a good player under center to lead our team. Elway set the bar high, and Orton is about as far from the bar as one can be. He is the anti-Elway, he cracks under pressure and doesn't win games.

claymore
05-24-2011, 11:20 AM
Our main problem last year was coaching and overall talent. We focus on Orton because he (sadly) was the face of the franchise... :harf:

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 11:21 AM
Elway won superbowls with top 5 defenses. Brady won with top 5 defenses. Rothlischeesburger won with top 5 defenses. So the trend us usually such. Have a solid defense who can keep an average of 30 points a game like the Broncos last season, and you might have a chance at winning.

I don't see how Orton is responsible for a bad record. If you guys want to look at a great story about a franchise who was simply bad because of management. Look no further then the Detroit Lions. Because thats what Broncos are starting to remind me of the past while. A string of bad coaching, bad drafting, bad deals, bad contracts. It's no surprise that most of our trades have been with the Lions the past few seasons.

You do realize that Denver gave up 5 yards per carry when they won the Super Bowl against the Packers. That wasn't a great defense, it was a good and opportunistic defense. Greg Robinson blitzed the house and prayed it worked.

Denver won those Super Bowls because of their offenses.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Our main problem last year was coaching and overall talent. We focus on Orton because he (sadly) was the face of the franchise... :harf:

There's a lot truth to that.

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Elway won superbowls with top 5 defenses. Brady won with top 5 defenses. Rothlischeesburger won with top 5 defenses. So the trend us usually such. Have a solid defense who can keep an average of 30 points a game like the Broncos last season, and you might have a chance at winning.

I don't see how Orton is responsible for a bad record. If you guys want to look at a great story about a franchise who was simply bad because of management. Look no further then the Detroit Lions. Because thats what Broncos are starting to remind me of the past while. A string of bad coaching, bad drafting, bad deals, bad contracts. It's no surprise that most of our trades have been with the Lions the past few seasons.

QBs and the offense help the defense. Its not a coincidence that the best at their position on the offense keep winning while the bad at their position consistently DON'T win.

There is a reason the QB is considered the MOST IMPORTANT position in sports, and its not because they make tackles.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 11:25 AM
Elway won superbowls with top 5 defenses. Brady won with top 5 defenses. Rothlischeesburger won with top 5 defenses. So the trend us usually such. Have a solid defense who can keep an average of 30 points a game like the Broncos last season, and you might have a chance at winning.

I don't see how Orton is responsible for a bad record. If you guys want to look at a great story about a franchise who was simply bad because of management. Look no further then the Detroit Lions. Because thats what Broncos are starting to remind me of the past while. A string of bad coaching, bad drafting, bad deals, bad contracts. It's no surprise that most of our trades have been with the Lions the past few seasons.

Ah no our defense was ranked somewhere in the middle. In fact we're the first team to win a Super Bowl with defense not ranked in top ten iirc.

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 11:26 AM
Our main problem last year was coaching and overall talent. We focus on Orton because he (sadly) was the face of the franchise... :harf:

DOesn't matter if you are not a "bad" QB. If your FO sees/knows that you are not a GOOD to GREAT QB.. you will be replaced. Period.

Orton is Not a GOOD QB. He's middle of the road, nothing special, average. Just like Plummer and why Plummer was replaced. Every team in the NFL is looking for their franchise QB. We've seen what teams like Buffalo can do, when they have a stud QB. Even San Fran, at one time, was considered great when they had great QBs. Look how much they've fallen since.

Its not a coincidence that these teams fell to the bottom after losing their stud QB.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 11:27 AM
QBs and the offense help the defense. Its not a coincidence that the best at their position on the offense keep winning while the bad at their position consistently DON'T win.

There is a reason the QB is considered the MOST IMPORTANT position in sports, and its not because they make tackles.

No kidding, just HOW much better would the Denver defene have ranked statistically if we didn't convert a PUTRID 31% on 3rd down? It goes hand in hand. Orton's play on 3rd down hurt the defense, and the defense giving up yards and points put pressure on Orton, which he has proven he can't handle.

So, in essence, if you want to maximize Orton's ability, you need to give him a great pass-blocking offensive line, stick him in the spread offense, and let him throw the ball 35-40 times/game, and you're going to need a top 10 defense.

Lonestar
05-24-2011, 11:27 AM
Wow, now Elway was a choke??? Just, wow.

Http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/picard_facepalm.jpg

Did you not see the same ass kickings in those super bowls that I did.
John was trying so hard he was for ing balls all over the place.
Iirc he had more picks than TDs in those previous games.

That is a definition of choke.

Trying to Carry a team that should not have been there.

Ever think why they went after quality OL after that? one of mikes first priority was to bring in quality blockers and GIBBS.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 11:29 AM
Did you not see the same ass kickings in those super bowls that I did.
John was trying so hard he was for ing balls all over the place.
Iirc he had more picks than TDs in those previous games.

That is a definition of choke.

Trying to Carry a team that should not have been there.

Ever think why they went after quality OL after that? one of mikes first priority was to bring in quality blockers and GIBBS.

And if Kyle Orton was the starting QB instead of John Elway the Denver Broncos MIGHT win 3-4 games, instead of representing the AFC in the Super Bowl.

Can't call Elway a choke, he carried teams on his shoulders. If he can't overcome those odds, no one in NFL history likely could have.

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:34 AM
Mediocre isn't good enough. Sounds like you need to be a fan of the Chiefs or Browns. In Denver, we (the fans) expect a good player under center to lead our team. Elway set the bar high, and Orton is about as far from the bar as one can be. He is the anti-Elway, he cracks under pressure and doesn't win games.

Sounds like you should be a Lions fan, since you like losing.

In Denver if you set the bar high and expect a good player under center to lead our team, then you must be a Chiefs, Raiders, Chargers fan, because you want the absolute crappiest QB on the team to start Tim "the Catapult" Tebow. Or you are a Florida Gators fan who was on the Chris Leak bandwagon, and he never panned out, so now you are on the Tebow bandwagon because he might be the only Gator to pan out at QB the past 20 years. I think you are a fan for all the wrong reasons, if thats the case.

Elway's best years came when he was in his late 30's, and before that he handed over superbowl rings to Joe Montana. I was surprised he was making it into the Pro Bowl with 18 TDs, 18 pick 6's, and a lowly 73 QB rating. Elway's QB rating was 54.9, 76.8, 70.2,71.4, 73.7, and only had 3 seasons in his entire career when he had a higher QB rating then Orton. If I remember correctly from alot of those seasons, Elway would usually get picked off, and because he was averaging as many touchdowns as he was interceptions for about the first 10 years of his career, the team played from behind all the time, and nobody talks about all the interceptions Elway gave up, and us playing from behind all the time. Thats why we never could be Joe Montana in the Superbowls. It took Elway about 12 seasons to finally get good. We are worried about a guy who put better seasons, with better QB rating then John Elway for most of his career.

topscribe
05-24-2011, 11:36 AM
And if Kyle Orton was the starting QB instead of John Elway the Denver Broncos MIGHT win 3-4 games, instead of representing the AFC in the Super Bowl.

Can't call Elway a choke, he carried teams on his shoulders. If he can't overcome those odds, no one in NFL history likely could have.

Exactly. Which totally supports this post (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155).

If the supporting cast could affect Elway's W-L record, then it will anybody else's . . .

-----

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:36 AM
8 out of the 10 playoff runs Elway had top 10 defenses in the league.

Juriga72
05-24-2011, 11:41 AM
Super Bowl records set by the Denver Bronco's 1984-1997

"Most points allowed in a game- 55"
"Most points allowed in one quarter-35"
"Most points allowed in first half-35"
"Most points allowed in second half-30"
Most yards allowed- 204 Timmy Smith"
Most touchdown passes allowed-8"
"Most yards from scrimmage-602 Washington"


ALL set by John Elway...right?

GEM
05-24-2011, 11:43 AM
Sounds like you should be a Lions fan, since you like losing.

In Denver if you set the bar high and expect a good player under center to lead our team, then you must be a Chiefs, Raiders, Chargers fan, because you want the absolute crappiest QB on the team to start Tim "the Catapult" Tebow. Or you are a Florida Gators fan who was on the Chris Leak bandwagon, and he never panned out, so now you are on the Tebow bandwagon because he might be the only Gator to pan out at QB the past 20 years. I think you are a fan for all the wrong reasons, if thats the case.

Elway's best years came when he was in his late 30's, and before that he handed over superbowl rings to Joe Montana. I was surprised he was making it into the Pro Bowl with 18 TDs, 18 pick 6's, and a lowly 73 QB rating. Elway's QB rating was 54.9, 76.8, 70.2,71.4, 73.7, and only had 3 seasons in his entire career when he had a higher QB rating then Orton. If I remember correctly from alot of those seasons, Elway would usually get picked off, and because he was averaging as many touchdowns as he was interceptions for about the first 10 years of his career, the team played from behind all the time, and nobody talks about all the interceptions Elway gave up, and us playing from behind all the time. Thats why we never could be Joe Montana in the Superbowls. It took Elway about 12 seasons to finally get good. We are worried about a guy who put better seasons, with better QB rating then John Elway for most of his career.

Just because people like Tebow doesn't mean they aren't Broncos fans. :rolleyes: You don't like Tebow...that's all good. No one is forcing you to. May want to get used to it though....I don't seem him going anywhere anytime soon. :shrugs:

:D

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:50 AM
Ah no our defense was ranked somewhere in the middle. In fact we're the first team to win a Super Bowl with defense not ranked in top ten iirc.

What are you talking about. The Broncos Defense was number 6 (17points a game) when we won in 97. We were first in the League averaging 29 points a season. 13 times we held teams to under 21 points.

That season 15 times our Running Backs had over 130 yards. Elway only passed over 300 yards 1 time. We also had HOF running back, and TE who never got the glory for putting this team on there backs. I wouldn't give Elway all the credit, but say he shared some of the carrying.

In 98 the team had the 8th ranked ranked defense, and we had averaged 30 points a game.

The 98 season we our RB's racked up 145 yards on the ground 13 times, and 200 + yards several times.

So check yourself, and check the facts./

HammeredOut
05-24-2011, 11:59 AM
Super Bowl records set by the Denver Bronco's 1984-1997

"Most points allowed in a game- 55"
"Most points allowed in one quarter-35"
"Most points allowed in first half-35"
"Most points allowed in second half-30"
Most yards allowed- 204 Timmy Smith"
Most touchdown passes allowed-8"
"Most yards from scrimmage-602 Washington"


ALL set by John Elway...right?

lol..

K.



Sure the story coming into the playoffs was "Is Denver's Defense Going to Collapse". They did for the most part, but it also showed how close we were to winning the superbowl, and which part of the team that needs better up-do.

So why is the story, forget about the defense, forget about the bad coaching, and now the focus is "Kyle Orton", and "Winning". The rest of the team is pretty bad. We have no defense, no run game, and its Ortons Fault. I don't see the logic.

The fans need to be saying management traded away our franchise QB, RB, WR, and fired Shanny. What good has it done. We won SBs with Shanny, and his decision making. Now we have ALL PRo Brandon Lloyd as the face of the franchise.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 12:02 PM
What are you talking about. The Broncos Defense was number 6 (17points a game) when we won in 97. We were first in the League averaging 29 points a season. 13 times we held teams to under 21 points.

That season 15 times our Running Backs had over 130 yards. Elway only passed over 300 yards 1 time. We also had HOF running back, and TE who never got the glory for putting this team on there backs. I wouldn't give Elway all the credit, but say he shared some of the carrying.

In 98 the team had the 8th ranked ranked defense, and we had averaged 30 points a game.

The 98 season we our RB's racked up 145 yards on the ground 13 times, and 200 + yards several times.

So check yourself, and check the facts./

My mistake we were actually ranked 7th overall but 16th in rush defense and we were the first team in NFL history to win the Super Bowl and not be ranked in the top 10 rush defense so maybe you ought check your facts. Because as you saids facts are facts.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1997/opp.htm

What we ranked up rushing the ball wasn't at issue.

Npba900
05-24-2011, 12:07 PM
lol..

K.



Sure the story coming into the playoffs was "Is Denver's Defense Going to Collapse". They did for the most part, but it also showed how close we were to winning the superbowl, and which part of the team that needs better up-do.

So why is the story, forget about the defense, forget about the bad coaching, and now the focus is "Kyle Orton", and "Winning". The rest of the team is pretty bad. We have no defense, no run game, and its Ortons Fault. I don't see the logic.

The fans need to be saying management traded away our franchise QB, RB, WR, and fired Shanny. What good has it done. We won SBs with Shanny, and his decision making. Now we have ALL PRo Brandon Lloyd as the face of the franchise.

Excellent analysis. Its taking a lot of time to recover from the decisions made in 2008, 2009 and 2010. I had so much promise for the 2006, 2007, and 2008 draft class and the direction Shannahan was taking (except for the Defense).

Bowlen fired Shanahan 3 years to early and no way with the talent Shannahan had assembled would he have gone 4-12. Somehow Shannahan lost touch with assembling a viable defense, and you couple this with Bowlen's impatients and finding-hiring a comparble veteran coach to replace Shannahan is why the franchise is in a state of flux right now. Just saying.

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 12:08 PM
The fans need to be saying management traded away our franchise QB, RB, WR, and fired Shanny. What good has it done. We won SBs with Shanny, and his decision making. Now we have ALL PRo Brandon Lloyd as the face of the franchise.

I don't know if you know my stance on this... but I've been pretty harsh on this organization (McDoosh inparticular) for getting rid of mentioned players.

But whats that have to do with the team, now? Thats in the past. We are talking about the team as it is, the players that are on the team now, and those we need to move forward with.

The fans know a stud QB when they see one, and when they don't. Right now everyone knows that Orton is NOT a stud QB.. period. Even though many are very skeptical of Tebow (me being one of them) I'm MUCH more interested in seeing where he may go rather than sticking with something I already know will NOT go. Orton isn't going to be anything special, ever. At least with Tebow, we can take a look. If he doesn't go, then I'm already to move on to the NEXT guy. Thats what happens when a team trades away the best QB they've had in 10 years. You keep looking to try and replace him. Thats where the Broncos are at.... but they knew from the moment they traded and got Orton, Orton was NOT the guy that was meant to be a replacement

Juriga72
05-24-2011, 12:11 PM
lol..

K.



Sure the story coming into the playoffs was "Is Denver's Defense Going to Collapse". They did for the most part, but it also showed how close we were to winning the superbowl, and which part of the team that needs better up-do.

So why is the story, forget about the defense, forget about the bad coaching, and now the focus is "Kyle Orton", and "Winning". The rest of the team is pretty bad. We have no defense, no run game, and its Ortons Fault. I don't see the logic.

The fans need to be saying management traded away our franchise QB, RB, WR, and fired Shanny. What good has it done. We won SBs with Shanny, and his decision making. Now we have ALL PRo Brandon Lloyd as the face of the franchise.

Uh.... yeah
Cutler with a defense ranked 30th in points allowed got us to 8-8.

He threw for MORE yards, TD's while doing this also... funny thing.... we ran the ball the very same number of times.
Hmm I know....

3rd down comp % for:
Jay-60.1%
Kyle-50.0%

nevcraw
05-24-2011, 12:13 PM
It's simple folks... after watching years of the likes Griese, Plummer, Orton an little bit Cutler -- you know mediocrity when you see it. you see defincencies that cannot be fixed and that will rear their ugly heads at the most inopportune time usually when the game is on the line.
Orton crumbles under the pressure of having to lead a team to win - and you can't blame that on the running game or the defense or his little ouchies.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 12:23 PM
Exactly. Which totally supports this post (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1259876&postcount=155).

If the supporting cast could affect Elway's W-L record, then it will anybody else's . . .

-----

I know where you're going with this... Kyle was as much a part of the problem as was anyone else. His inability to make plays when it mattered most has been an absolute stain on his career, I'm not just talking here in Denver, this goes back to Chicago.

Elway made a living making plays when it mattered, there really is NO comparison between the two. Orton is the anti-Elway, and I promise you that Elway knows that.

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 12:27 PM
Name 3 players last year better offensively better than Orton? :cool:



And hes part of the problem.......:coffee:

rcsodak
05-24-2011, 12:28 PM
Unfortunaltely until he had a good D, not great but good and running game his team and he chocked in all those superblows


That seems to Be a blind spot to many. None Of the wining super bowl QBs did it by themselves they all had a TEAM around them.

While the QB gets the w-l it is perhaps the biggest misnomer there is in rating a QB. Even worse than QB rating system that ravage hates.
Nail, meet hammer.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 12:30 PM
Name 3 players last year better offensively better than Orton? :cool:



And hes part of the problem.......:coffee:

Brandon Lloyd, Ryan Clady, Tim Tebow. Just because you're one of the smaller leaks, doesn't mean you aren't contributing water to the sinking of the vessel.

:coffee:

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 12:34 PM
Name 3 players last year better offensively better than Orton? :cool:



And hes part of the problem.......:coffee:

Yes.. he's PART of the problem. Absolutely, without a doubt. This is why the Bears were willing to throw him into the trade, and why McD immediately drafted a QB... because he isn't the solution.

Orton doesn't have to be the BIGGEST problem to be PART of the problem, and Orton is absolutely a problem that every team will try to repair if he is their starting QB.

Its not because he's bad, its because he's just not GOOD.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 12:36 PM
Yes.. he's PART of the problem. Absolutely, without a doubt. This is why the Bears were willing to throw him into the trade, and why McD immediately drafted a QB... because he isn't the solution.

Orton doesn't have to be the BIGGEST problem to be PART of the problem, and Orton is absolutely a problem that every team will try to repair if he is their starting QB.

Its not because he's bad, its because he's just not GOOD.

Perfectly said Rav, perfectly said. :salute:

Juriga72
05-24-2011, 12:39 PM
Name 3 players last year better offensively better than Orton? :cool:



And hes part of the problem.......:coffee:

Name three starting QB in the NFL with a worse 3rd down Qb rating....:welcome:

Juriga72
05-24-2011, 12:42 PM
Brandon Lloyd, Ryan Clady, Tim Tebow. Just because you're one of the smaller leaks, doesn't mean you aren't contributing water to the sinking of the vessel.

:coffee:

Well...... thanks to Kyle we could also count Brian Colquitt as being one of our best offensive players.

I mean being the 7th best in the whole NFL is something right?

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 12:50 PM
Brandon Lloyd, Ryan Clady, Tim Tebow. Just because you're one of the smaller leaks, doesn't mean you aren't contributing water to the sinking of the vessel.

:coffee:

TIM TEBOW in 3 games was better than Orton? 3 GAMES. In a 16 game season its silly to even entertain your line of thinking. No way Tebow is even in the discussion for best offensive player.

Lloyd, Clady.... Ill give you those. Not Tebow. Try again.







Name three starting QB in the NFL with a worse 3rd down Qb rating....:welcome:

Nice job in avoiding my question and fliping it.


No run game = Long 3rd down attepts. Bad pass protection + one playmaker = 3rd down failer.


He does need to get better though. But I can at least take into account things that actaully affect the passing game in those situations. Most of you guys have tunnel vision when thinking about Orton and cant honestly look at him objectively.

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 12:54 PM
Well...... thanks to Kyle we could also count Brian Colquitt as being one of our best offensive players.

I mean being the 7th best in the whole NFL is something right?

I had no idea the punter was part of the offense. :laugh:

Thanks for this intelligent discussion, Jur.

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 12:55 PM
I had no idea the punter was part of the offense. :laugh:

Thanks for this intelligent discussion, Jur.

Doesn't he play during offensive downs?

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 12:55 PM
Doesn't he play during offensive downs?

OH MY LAWD.


:lol:

topscribe
05-24-2011, 12:57 PM
No run game = Long 3rd down attepts. Bad pass protection + one playmaker = 3rd down failer.


He does need to get better though. But I can at least take into account things that actaully affect the passing game in those situations. Most of you guys have tunnel vision when thinking about Orton and cant honestly look at him objectively.

Absolutely!! Exactly what I have been trying to say!

But not only that: No run game + no TE makes it more difficult to convert
even the short 3rd down situations. When the defense is confident you are
not going to get it against them by running, guess where the box safety
goes: into coverage. And all 11 defenders and their DC are expecting pass.

As you implied, that is not to place a carte blanche excuse on Orton. He
does need to improve in 3rd down and RZ situations. But to what degree?
I would like for him just to have a halfway decent running game and/or a
halfway decent pass-catching TE or big receiver, then see how well he
does. And then I will make a judgment.

Is that so unreasonable?

-----

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 12:57 PM
Give me another player, Rav, and lets stop talking about SPECIAL TEAMS players.

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 12:59 PM
TIM TEBOW in 3 games was better than Orton? 3 GAMES. In a 16 game season its silly to even entertain your line of thinking. No way Tebow is even in the discussion for best offensive player.

Lloyd, Clady.... Ill give you those. Not Tebow. Try again.








Nice job in avoiding my question and fliping it.


No run game = Long 3rd down attepts. Bad pass protection + one playmaker = 3rd down failer.


He does need to get better though. But I can at least take into account things that actaully affect the passing game in those situations. Most of you guys have tunnel vision when thinking about Orton and cant honestly look at him objectively.

Agreed I don't three games is enough to say Tebow played better than Orton. That said overall I liked what I saw out of him

rcsodak
05-24-2011, 01:00 PM
To you yes but not to me friend because he wouldn't be here to compete for the starting position.
So you want a dead armed, int throwing qb as a mentor for TT?

I'd rather they bring somebody in, if they go that route, that will PUSH TT.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 01:01 PM
TIM TEBOW in 3 games was better than Orton? 3 GAMES. In a 16 game season its silly to even entertain your line of thinking. No way Tebow is even in the discussion for best offensive player.

Lloyd, Clady.... Ill give you those. Not Tebow. Try again.








Nice job in avoiding my question and fliping it.


No run game = Long 3rd down attepts. Bad pass protection + one playmaker = 3rd down failer.


He does need to get better though. But I can at least take into account things that actaully affect the passing game in those situations. Most of you guys have tunnel vision when thinking about Orton and cant honestly look at him objectively.

Sadly, Tebow looked better and more promising in 3 games than Orton has in his entire NFL career. So I stand by my post. Tebow was a more threatening offensive player than Orton was, and if he had been given more than 3 games, 1.5 of which was in an unltra-conservative playbook, there would be no discussion about who should start this year.

Of by the way, McDumbass didn't give Tebow reps during practice, so he did that well pretty much on the fly. Orton did nothing outstanding, his stats were OK, not that great, mediocre for the most part, and the Broncos won 3 games with him starting.

BroncoStud
05-24-2011, 01:03 PM
Absolutely!! Exactly what I have been trying to say!

But not only that: No run game + no TE makes it more difficult to convert
even the short 3rd down situations. When the defense is confident you are
not going to get it against them by running, guess where the box safety
goes: into coverage. And all 11 defenders and their DC are expecting pass.

As you implied, that is not to place a carte blanche excuse on Orton. He
does need to improve in 3rd down and RZ situations. But to what degree?
I would like for him just to have a halfway decent running game and/or a
halfway decent pass-catching TE or big receiver, then see how well he
does. And then I will make a judgment.

Is that so unreasonable?

-----

Wrong, this has been debunked. Orton didn't face any longer 3rd downs than most other players in the NFL.

:elefant:

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 01:05 PM
Absolutely!! Exactly what I have been trying to say!

But not only that: No run game + no TE makes it more difficult to convert
even the short 3rd down situations. When the defense is confident you are
not going to get it against them by running, guess where the box safety
goes: into coverage. And all 11 defenders and their DC are expecting pass.

As you implied, that is not to place a carte blanche excuse on Orton. He
does need to improve in 3rd down and RZ situations. But to what degree?
I would like for him just to have a halfway decent running game and/or a
halfway decent pass-catching TE or big receiver, then see how well he
does. And then I will make a judgment.

Is that so unreasonable?

-----


No thats completely reasonable because your taking into account the failures of other postions on 3rd down situations. Nobody can dispute that.

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 01:14 PM
Sadly, Tebow looked better and more promising in 3 games than Orton has in his entire NFL career. So I stand by my post. Tebow was a more threatening offensive player than Orton was, and if he had been given more than 3 games, 1.5 of which was in an unltra-conservative playbook, there would be no discussion about who should start this year.

Of by the way, McDumbass didn't give Tebow reps during practice, so he did that well pretty much on the fly. Orton did nothing outstanding, his stats were OK, not that great, mediocre for the most part, and the Broncos won 3 games with him starting.

Tebow is a ridulous answer and you now it. 3 games means nothing thus far and its not even a quarter of a season. Nobody but Tebow could have fans drawning large conclusion from such minimal experience.

Stand by you answer all you want, but Ill wait for a legitiment one.




Agreed I don't three games is enough to say Tebow played better than Orton. That said overall I liked what I saw out of him

I loved what I saw of Tebow. Hes definitly the most exciting Qb we have had since Elway.




Wrong, this has been debunked. Orton didn't face any longer 3rd downs than most other players in the NFL.

:elefant:

How is that even possible. Show me the proof if you so kindly would.

rcsodak
05-24-2011, 01:14 PM
Yes and no. People don't say that the GOOD QBs only won because of their defense. You don't see fans around the NFL saying this about Manning, Brady, Brees....because they have actually stepped up and WON games for their teams. Fans aren't just RANDOMLY choosing what QBs they feel win only when they have a stud defense. They are making these comments about QBs that haven't proved to be winners UNLESS they have stud defenses.

You hear these comments "they won because of their defense" about QBs like Dilfer, Rypien, Johnson. In todays' NFL examples are Flacco, Sanchez,.... and Orton. Why? Because they couldn't win otherwise. Orton is in this class, and its not just because people around the NFL want to pick on him...its because he fits the bill.

Orton will not LOSE you games... but he won't WIN you games either. He's not going to take a mediocre team and make them good. He's not going to take a bad team and make them mediocre. He's going to play safe and not throw INTs while throwing the safe pass. Thats great if the team playing against you isn't scoring.

But if you have a bad team, you will stay bad with Orton as your QB. If you are a mediocre team, you will stay mediocre with Orton as your QB. If you have a GOOD team around you, then Orton will be the guy that will keep you good... but he isn't WINNING you games.
I guess that means on a great team, orton would also be great?
I doubt ANY qb would've won anymore games last year. The _efense gave up 29.4ppg. ONLY tbrady scored more, and he had a running game.

topscribe
05-24-2011, 01:16 PM
Wrong, this has been debunked. Orton didn't face any longer 3rd downs than most other players in the NFL.

:elefant:

Maybe you ought to go back now and try reading my post. :rolleyes:

-----

rcsodak
05-24-2011, 01:19 PM
I don't think I'm trying to have it both ways. I was addressing a particular issue that Hammered brought up about how Orton as rookie lead the Bears to the playoffs. Looking at his stat line from that year there is just no he lead the way as far winning games.
So now stats ARE important!?

TXBRONC
05-24-2011, 01:23 PM
So now stats ARE important!?

I don't recall every saying that they are not important.

Ravage!!!
05-24-2011, 01:23 PM
OH MY LAWD.


:lol:

Look. I'm not one that is going to say that he's a top offensive player, but if you want to get technical about it... since you want to laugh at people.... then the truth of the matter is.... the punter IS part of the offense. If its 4th down and 6 yrds to do, and the punter throws the ball to a WR that catches it 4 yrds downfield and rushes for 3 after the catch, getting the first down.... what stat sheet is that kept on? Special teams or offensive?

The Punter is able to throw passes, hand the ball off, or rush for first downs just as much as any other offensive player on the team is. He comes into the game when the OFFENSE has the ball (this was way Parcells loved Tom Tupa as his punter, because Tupa was drafted into the NFL as a QB. He could throw the ball at NFL levels, and punt at NFL levels, thus giving him more options on 4th down..as well as saving a roster spot). Just because you call the player personnel that comes onto the field as "special teams".. thats only indicating that they are specialized players for the job they are doing DURING the fourth down play. The Punter is, an offensive player, just as the punting "unit" is an offensive unit.

Going back to the discussion. Doesn't matter if Orton is the BIGGEST problem. He's a problem because he is NOT a solution. He plays the most important position in sports, and just isn't good. He's not BAD..but isn't good. Every franchise in the NFL wants a good to GREAT QB. Thats how you win. When you do not have a good QB, you try to replace him. Thats why the Bears threw him into the trade for another QB, thats why we drafted a QB while he was here, and its why he will be traded away once again.

Doesn't matter if Orton isn't bad. It only matters that he's not GOOD, and hence why we as fans, want him replaced so we can move on to try and find the one that IS good.

rcsodak
05-24-2011, 01:30 PM
No kidding, just HOW much better would the Denver defene have ranked statistically if we didn't convert a PUTRID 31% on 3rd down? It goes hand in hand. Orton's play on 3rd down hurt the defense, and the defense giving up yards and points put pressure on Orton, which he has proven he can't handle.

So, in essence, if you want to maximize Orton's ability, you need to give him a great pass-blocking offensive line, stick him in the spread offense, and let him throw the ball 35-40 times/game, and you're going to need a top 10 defense.

:laugh:

Sorry....I didn't know if you were talking about NE or NO or SD or DEN for a second there.... :confused:

;)

topscribe
05-24-2011, 01:31 PM
I guess that means on a great team, orton would also be great?
I doubt ANY qb would've won anymore games last year. The _efense gave up 29.4ppg. ONLY tbrady scored more, and he had a running game.

Ellis-Green really came on for Brady, didn't he? I also was impressed with the
outlets he had in Ellis-Green and Woodhead out of the backfield. And
Gronkowski was a blessing to Brady when Brady was in tough spots.

Of course, that was in addition to Welker, Branch, and Hernandez. And I'll bet
the Broncos would have loved to have that O-line . . .

-----

Bosco
05-24-2011, 01:31 PM
I doubt will see Elway do stupid shit like drafting trading a 1st round pick to move up in the 2nd round or bringing in a fa defensive end only to cut him before he's ever played a down for the Broncos.

Funny you should mention that considering it's almost exactly the same situation. Bowlen has given defacto GM responsibility to two different people now who were not ready for the burden and as expected, John is already setting his own benchmark for epic **** ups.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss kinda thing ain't it?

BroncoJoe
05-24-2011, 01:32 PM
He's a problem because he is NOT a solution.

Quote of the year!

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 01:33 PM
Look. I'm not one that is going to say that he's a top offensive player, but if you want to get technical about it... since you want to laugh at people.... then the truth of the matter is.... the punter IS part of the offense.

The Punter is able to throw passes, hand the ball off, or rush for first downs just as much as any other offensive player on the team is. He comes into the game when the OFFENSE has the ball (this was way Parcells loved Tom Tupa as his punter, because Tupa was drafted into the NFL as a QB. He could throw the ball at NFL levels, and punt at NFL levels, thus giving him more options on 4th down..as well as saving a roster spot). Just because you call the player personnel that comes onto the field as "special teams".. thats only indicating that they are specialized players for the job they are doing DURING the fourth down play. The Punter is, an offensive player, just as the punting "unit" is an offensive unit.

Going back to the discussion. Doesn't matter if Orton is the BIGGEST problem. He's a problem because he is NOT a solution. He plays the most important position in sports, and just isn't good. He's not BAD..but isn't good. Every franchise in the NFL wants a good to GREAT QB. Thats how you win. When you do not have a good QB, you try to replace him. Thats why the Bears threw him into the trade for another QB, thats why we drafted a QB while he was here, and its why he will be traded away once again.

Doesn't matter if Orton isn't bad. It only matters that he's not GOOD, and hence why we as fans, want him replaced so we can move on to try and find the one that IS good.

The punter is only an offensive player if your talking semantics, which is your standard response.

Ill ask you, where do you rank Orton of all Broncos players last year?

BroncoJoe
05-24-2011, 01:33 PM
Funny you should mention that considering it's almost exactly the same situation. Bowlen has given defacto GM responsibility to two different people now who were not ready for the burden and as expected, John is already setting his own benchmark for epic **** ups.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss kinda thing ain't it?

WTF are you talking about?

LTC Pain
05-24-2011, 01:34 PM
WTF are you talking about?

I didn't get it either. :confused:

NorCalBronco7
05-24-2011, 01:37 PM
Funny you should mention that considering it's almost exactly the same situation. Bowlen has given defacto GM responsibility to two different people now who were not ready for the burden and as expected, John is already setting his own benchmark for epic **** ups.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss kinda thing ain't it?


Pissed off people with reasons only in generalities. Sounds like he doesnt even know why hes mad.