Town Hall Proposal: Implementation of an infraction points (IP) system

[Tned]

Ok, we have a problem. We have some people following the rules, some people not. The people that don't follow the rules often don't have any one rules violation that warrants a suspension/ban from the forum or an opt-in group. However, in many cases cumulatively their actions/violations warrant a suspension or loss of opt-in privileges.

Much of the feedback we receive is that the repeat offenders keep getting away with attacks and other rules violations. However, we have no good way to monitor and issue suspensions and opt-in bans, because it is all too arbitrary right now.

Now that the mods are in charge of suspensions, we have and are talking about things, such as three strike policies, but what constitutes a strike?

Should all of the following 'equally' count as a strike:

Someone typing f'k and circumventing the language filter
Someone typing "geez, apparently you don't know how to read"
Someone typing "you are a worthless piece of shit, and I hope you die a slow, painful death"


All of those are rules violations, but should they equally count as a 'strike' in something like a three strike policy?

Hence the dilemma. I have been roundly criticized for being to lenient and not banning people who deserve to be banned, but it is very difficult to make arbitrary decisions on rules violations of varying degrees that occur over extended periods of time. Add to that the fact that we all have 'bias' (thanks Buff for reminding us ;)), so human nature is to give a 'pass' to someone you think is typically a good poster that got caught up in the moment, vs. someone you think is a 'trouble maker'. However, how many times should a 'good poster' get a pass, before s/he is moved to 'trouble maker' status? :confused:

These are just 'some' of the factors that people don't see on a regular basis, which makes it hard for me personally to pull the trigger on a ban, and tend to give people second and third chances.

Now, as the banning is being turned over to the mods, we are discussing exactly what criteria should be used, and once again we find ourselves with the same old question, are all violations equal. I don't think so, which makes an x strike policy very difficult. It makes getting it "right" with arbitrary and subjective bannings virtually impossible.

So, while it may be very unpopular with those of us that came from Mania, I am proposing that we institute an infractions points (IP) system, similar to that which existed on Broncosfreak and similar to what Mania has. More important, it is similar to what works VERY well on thousands of other message boards. It is a built in and commonly used feature on vBulletin boards.

For those that came over from Mania, please have an open mind and read on, because this can enable us to remove the subjectiveness (and even bias, Buff ;)) from the process of deciding when someone needs to be banned/suspended.

I will describe conceptually how the system would work, but this is just a concept, meaning we haven't gone through and defined every infraction, length of time, etc. That would come after we decide to go through with this, depending on the feedback we receive.

So, the concept is that any post that violates a rule, will result in a mod issuing an infraction. There will be multiple infractions, such as:


Circumventing language filter outside the lounge
Personal attack - minor
Personal attack - major
Defying a mods directive
Racist remark/gender harrasment
Sig/avvie violation
Posting nudity/inappropriate graphic


Each one of the above would be assigned a point values and expirations, maybe like:


1 pt - 7 days - Circumventing language filter outside the lounge
5 pt - 14 days - Personal attack - minor
15 pt - 30 days - Personal attack - major
10 pt - 14 days - Defying a mods directive
10 pt - 30 days - Racist remark/gender harrasment
5 pt - 14 days - Sig/avvie violation
15 pt - 14 days - Posting nudity/inappropriate graphic


Then, there are thresholds where privelages are lost, lets keep it simple and just have three groups for this example:

Less than 20 points, full privelages
Between 21 points and 30 points, loss of opt-in privelages
Over 30 points, full suspension from message board.

Since each individual infraction would have it's own expiration, bans woud be issued and removed automatically as infractions expire.

Lets say I get
11/1 Major personal attack - 15 points - 30 days
11/7 Defying moderator - 10 points - 14 days

At this point, I lose my access to the opt-in forums (25 points).

On 11/14 Major Personal attack 15 points - 30 days

Now, I get a full message board suspension (40 points).

On 11/21 the Defying moderator infraction expires
Now, my full suspension ends, but I still don't have access to opt-in forums, because I still have 30 points.

On 12/1 the first Major personal attack expires, which drops my total points to 15, which means I get full access to the message board back.


So, in summary, that is how it would work. There are other nuances, such as a mod would have the option to issue a 0 point warning infraction on some of the minor ones, such as circumventing the filter, or minor attack, so we could alert the poster that they are doing something wrong and track it, but if it is a first offense, not have any points accumulate.

For all the people that have been complaining that we have been too lenient, or that we are not 'fair' in how people are suspended, this system is the ONLY way to apply suspensions/punishment evenly across the board.

While I believe strongly this type of system is what we need to move to, the fact that many on Mania had a bad experience with it, I want to have an open discussion about the pros and cons before any decision is made.

Please give input here.

P.S: There is also a selfish reason for moving in this direction. Up to this point, I have made all ban decisions, and I take making those decisions very serious, giving multiple warnings and being 'sure' someone needs to be banned.

I need to cease to have such a hands on involvement, and want to move more into a role where I can actually start posting again, act as oversite for moderator's actions, deal with poster appeals on bans or other actions, and then do the technical admin roles. I need a break from the day to day operations of the board -- I really need a break. I need to either be able to post again, rather than dealing with crap all day long, or walk away from the board for stretches, knowing that there is a system in place where the mods can keep things running like clockwork, and deal with problem posters.

EDIT: I was asked to produce a screen shot of what it would look like. This shows a couple infractions I received on mania, so it gives you an idea of how it will look when you go to your User CP:

http://www.broncos07.com/downloads/infractions_2.jpg

[BroncoJoe]

I'm gonna have to read this in the morning... :beer: (too many)

After a brief scan, I like what I think you're getting at.

[dogfish]

*shrugs*


i really have no problem with it, as long as the mods don't start issuing infractions all over the place for piddly transgressions, which i don't really see happening. . .




i think the wisest course of action is to test the system out by banning mtnman and WTM-- they've got the most experience with being banned, they should be able to tell us how effective it is. . . . :heh:

[Northman]

*shrugs*


i really have no problem with it, as long as the mods don't start issuing infractions all over the place for piddly transgressions, which i don't really see happening. . .




i think the wisest course of action is to test the system out by banning mtnman and WTM-- they've got the most experience with being banned, they should be able to tell us how effective it is. . . . :heh:


I know your joking around and what not but for we would like everyone to try and take this serious as we (as a board) really need to come to a conclusion on the best way to fix the problems that we are having on here. And i know there will be some who will go with the he said/she said arguements but it just isnt that simple. So this proposal is put up here to try and make sure that everything is run sharper and without any chance of bias. People will be accountable for their own actions from here on out which is the way it should be. Everyone will be accountable for their own behavior no matter what race, sex, or political affliation. So i suggest people look at this seriously. Not picking on you, but i just dont want the thread to get hijacked like most of them do. :D

[Tned]

P.S: I will also add this to the bottom of my initial post. There is also a selfish reason for moving in this direction. Up to this point, I have made all ban decisions, and I take making those decisions very serious, giving multiple warnings and being 'sure' someone needs to be banned.

I need to cease to have such a hands on involvement, and want to move more into a role where I can actually start posting again, act as oversite for moderator's actions, deal with poster appeals on bans or other actions, and then do the technical admin roles. I need a break from the day to day operations of the board -- I really need a break. I need to either be able to post again, rather than dealing with crap all day long, or walk away from the board for stretches, knowing that there is a system in place where the mods can keep things running like clockwork, and deal with problem posters.

[dogfish]

P.S: I will also add this to the bottom of my initial post. There is also a selfish reason for moving in this direction. Up to this point, I have made all ban decisions, and I take making those decisions very serious, giving multiple warnings and being 'sure' someone needs to be banned.

I need to cease to have such a hands on involvement, and want to move more into a role where I can actually start posting again, act as oversite for moderator's actions, deal with poster appeals on bans or other actions, and then do the technical admin roles. I need a break from the day to day operations of the board -- I really need a break. I need to either be able to post again, rather than dealing with crap all day long, or walk away from the board for stretches, knowing that there is a system in place where the mods can keep things running like clockwork, and deal with problem posters.



if that's the case, be like nike and just do it. . . .

i think about 90% of the reason that it bothered people so much on mania was because it came out of the blue with no announcement or warning whatsoever, and right on the heels of the color change fiasco. . . . it really never bothered me all that much, but i guess some people just felt that it was authoritarian the way they just started handing them out with no prior explanation. . . and the whole thing got blown out of shape because a few popular posters got infractions and raised a big stink about it. . .

there's no danger of that happening here, as you've been extremely careful to get people's opinions and solicit feedback. . . as long as we have mods that are familiar with the rather, uhhh, "unique" group dynamics here, i really can't see any great problems arising with the system. . . . just as a suggestion, maybe it should be given a trial period the way the high-five and mile high salute functions were? of course, you might have to give more weight to the mods' opinions i that case, as people who received infractions might not be in favor of continuing the system, but i think that if we see people get banned for causing problems, a decent number of people might actually support it. . .

and if you feel like this time you just need to impliment it and be done with it, i really won't have a problem with that either, as long as the forum continues to run smoothly. . .

[Midnight Blue]

Someone typing f'k and circumventing the language filter

IMO, this example seems a tiny bit strict as far as the interpretation of "circumventing the language filter"... if one was to type "fuuck" or "fu ck" or other means that display the actual profanity, then yes...but "f'k" or "f*ck" or "sh*t" are like self-censorship on the part of the poster... similar to "azz" or "a$$" instead of the less-acceptable word for donkey. I mean, how is "****" different from "sh*t"? One still knows what the poster meant in most cases.

[Kapaibro]

IMO, this example seems a tiny bit strict as far as the interpretation of "circumventing the language filter"... if one was to type "fuuck" or "fu ck" or other means that display the actual profanity, then yes...but "f'k" or "f*ck" or "sh*t" are like self-censorship on the part of the poster... similar to "azz" or "a$$" instead of the less-acceptable word for donkey. I mean, how is "****" different from "sh*t"? One still knows what the poster meant in most cases.

I'm with you on this one. I think self censorship actually shows a bit more thought than straight up typing the word with no regard, and then getting it all *********!


I'd like to thank Tned for giving us the opportunity to discuss this as it wasn't don't on the Mania. I think the way it was handled on Mania, and as Anubis said, on top of the colour change, was incredibly rude, and way beyond authoritarian. So thanks again Tned for giving us the chance to give input. I do think that the mods, and you have had to work too hard to police certain people, and if this is the best way to give yourselfs a bit of a break, then so be it.


I was one of the first people given an IP, for calling Frenchy a frog, which I had done from the first time we had a chat, and he even called himself a frog. It was called a racist attack, and even Frenchy complaining about it did no good. Hahahaha, me calling Frenchy a frog is a term of affection!
Anyways, given that I have been abused by people on the Mania for not being american, and not spelling words the American way, I thought the IP was stupid, and I let my feelings be known.

[SR]

IP system and CP system sounds good to me.

[Dreadnought]

I was one of the first people given an IP, for calling Frenchy a frog, which I had done from the first time we had a chat, and he even called himself a frog. It was called a racist attack, and even Frenchy complaining about it did no good. Hahahaha, me calling Frenchy a frog is a term of affection!
Anyways, given that I have been abused by people on the Mania for not being american, and not spelling words the American way, I thought the IP was stupid, and I let my feelings be known.

Just proof that this will always be a judgement call, and like all judgement calls subject to error Kap. It can be especially tough when you blend members from a variety of environments sorting out which unfamiliar members are actually close friends giving each other a hard time and which are just being jerks.

I don't generally weigh in on this type of thread because I want to get an unvanished feel for what the membership is thinking and don't want to get into trying to sway opinion. That being said, what Tned is trying to do is develop a method to deal with problem posters more decisively, as I think a sizable majority of the members here want to see happen. As things stand now we get caught stuck between two bad models;

A) Arbitrary but very fast action from Mod staff. This will in some cases be correct, but in others be wrong or give full sway to complaints of bias and unfairness - and its against the grain of the original vision for the site as I understand it when Tned and the rest of you guys left Mania.

B) Mods and Admin end up feeling like Medieval philosophers arguing over how many angels God can fit on the head of a pin. With little subjective guidance this can seemingly go on forever, as we try to determine what is the correct action, why, is it fair, consistent, what have you. Contrary to some opinions there is wide divergence of views within Mod staff on how to do this, even if most of us will vote alike in elections :D

What Tned is proposing is a means to better let us do our job, consistent with the idea of a community by and for the members.

[Kapaibro]

Just proof that this will always be a judgement call, and like all judgement calls subject to error Kap. It can be especially tough when you blend members from a variety of environments sorting out which unfamiliar members are actually close friends giving each other a hard time and which are just being jerks.

I don't generally weigh in on this type of thread because I want to get an unvanished feel for what the membership is thinking and don't want to get into trying to sway opinion. That being said, what Tned is trying to do is develop a method to deal with problem posters more decisively, as I think a sizable majority of the members here want to see happen. As things stand now we get caught stuck between two bad models;

A) Arbitrary but very fast action from Mod staff. This will in some cases be correct, but in others be wrong or give full sway to complaints of bias and unfairness - and its against the grain of the original vision for the site as I understand it when Tned and the rest of you guys left Mania.

B) Mods and Admin end up feeling like Medieval philosophers arguing over how many angels God can fit on the head of a pin. With little subjective guidance this can seemingly go on forever, as we try to determine what is the correct action, why, is it fair, consistent, what have you. Contrary to some opinions there is wide divergence of views within Mod staff on how to do this, even if most of us will vote alike in elections :D

What Tned is proposing is a means to better let us do our job, consistent with the idea of a community by and for the members.

At the time it was foisted on Mania, it pissed me off, but to be fair, it now works quite well.

I am particularly proud of my last IP.

We had a poster on Mania who was a moron of the upper echelon, and I told him so. It felt good, and I knew I would be ip'd, but damn it was worth it. And I scored many a CP for telling it straight!

[Tned]

IMO, this example seems a tiny bit strict as far as the interpretation of "circumventing the language filter"... if one was to type "fuuck" or "fu ck" or other means that display the actual profanity, then yes...but "f'k" or "f*ck" or "sh*t" are like self-censorship on the part of the poster... similar to "azz" or "a$$" instead of the less-acceptable word for donkey. I mean, how is "****" different from "sh*t"? One still knows what the poster meant in most cases.


I'm with you on this one. I think self censorship actually shows a bit more thought than straight up typing the word with no regard, and then getting it all *********!

It might be time to revisit that rule (circumvention of language filter) again, as well as possibly some other rules. Last time we had a Town Hall Discussion on it, most people did not want to allow people to circumvent the language filter.

I'll start a seperate discussion on that.

As to the example, instead of F'k, any number of 'mild' rules violations could have been used in place of F'k, the point being that not all rules violations or event 'attacks' are the same, and the infraction points system is one of the main ways to make sure the reaction or punishment fits the crime.

One of the complaints we receive quite often is why hasn't XXXX been banned, he constantly attacks people?

or

How come xxxx was banned but yyyyy wasn't?

The main problem is that often these individuals don't have any single 'attack' or violation that rises to the justification of a suspension, and therefore a mod sends a mention warning the poster to discontinue said behavior. Maybe they do for a few days, or even a week, then they do it again.

When you mix in the factor that these 'little' attacks, happen over a period of time, often are intermixed with retaliation or ganging up by other posters, someone posting something intentionally aimed at baiting, the waters become very muddy, and as a result, people typically don't get banned unless they have a severe rules violation, completely disregard a mod or respond to the mod with profanity.

So, currently it is completely arbitrary and subjective, some posters getting more 'benefit of the doubt' then they deserve, others getting less than they deserve, and based on a lot of feedback we receive, too few people getting suspensions from the message board, or from the politics area.

This system allows for a much more fair means of responding to rules violations, tracking violations, and suspending members (from the entire message board or the politics or lounge forum).

Also, since the mods would hand out individual infractions, which would add up to suspension as points accumulate, I can move into an appeal role. Currently, since I have been the one making the decision on the bans, the appeal process doesn't work very well, and many members don't see me as an appeal route.

Moving to the IP system, if someone feels they were given an infraction they didn't deserve, then they can contact me and appeal it, and then I can review it and reverse/remove that infraction if I agree with the posters appeal.

There bye providing a much more straight forward appeal path for people that feel they have received an infraction that they shouldn't have (Kap's frog comment as an example from the Mania -- people should check out frenchfans sig, by the way).

[Tned]

IMO, this example seems a tiny bit strict as far as the interpretation of "circumventing the language filter"... if one was to type "fuuck" or "fu ck" or other means that display the actual profanity, then yes...but "f'k" or "f*ck" or "sh*t" are like self-censorship on the part of the poster... similar to "azz" or "a$$" instead of the less-acceptable word for donkey. I mean, how is "****" different from "sh*t"? One still knows what the poster meant in most cases.


I'm with you on this one. I think self censorship actually shows a bit more thought than straight up typing the word with no regard, and then getting it all *********!


Since it is a good question, and comletely up to how the current makeup of the community feels, I have started a Town Hall Discussion specifically to talk about circumvention of the profanity filter.

Please give input on that here: http://broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=432018#post432018

[Fan in Exile]

I would be all for this. I came over from Mania but I never ran into infraction problems over there. I know that I've crossed the line a couple of times and I think that some points especially the warning will be good in keeping this place friendly. I also think that having someone other than Tned doing the banning and having Tned as a legit appeal will be good not just for the people who have to go through it, but also so that the people watching see that everything's handled as fairly as possible.

[frauschieze]

I'm down with an implementation of an IP system. It sounds like it will make all the mods and Tned's life much easier and since they volunteer their time (and money), I see no reason why this shouldn't be done.

[NightTrainLayne]

I've been for an IP (infraction point) system any time that it's been mentioned, and I like the examples of points and time-frames that Tned has laid out. This would in essence give a three-strikes and your out type of philosophy for major issues, but minor ones would be more-or-less a slap on the wrist. . .only adding on to major issues if there are any.

I would add just one other idea from my experience at the Freak. You should add an additional infraction (I'm not sure what level, but probably along the lines of 5 points) for starting a thread, or questioning publicly any infraction's handed out. Nothing causes more problems imo than a bunch of threads running around criticizing the mods actions.

That's not to say you can't question an infraction in private through pm's with the mods and/or Tned. There's just no need for the public airing of dirty laundry.

[Thnikkaman]

I say give it a 30 day trial period, then take a census about it then. Don't enforce the suspensions during this period, but let people know what points they are acruing and why so that we have an adjustment period to get ourselves in line. I also think there should be an appeal thread (that should be used conservatavely).

And I think you should implement the 30 day trial now. Otherwise, this issue could sit here for a while with nothing being done about it.

[frauschieze]

I say give it a 30 day trial period, then take a census about it then. Don't enforce the suspensions during this period, but let people know what points they are acruing and why so that we have an adjustment period to get ourselves in line. I also think there should be an appeal thread (that should be used conservatavely).

And I think you should implement the 30 day trial now. Otherwise, this issue could sit here for a while with nothing being done about it.

Actually.....I think that a trial period is a good idea. I'd be down with that.......as long as someone gives me an IP. I never got one over at the Freak. :confused:

However, I think appeals should go to Tned only via PM or the suggestion box or something. I don't see anything good coming out of a public appeal. If there is something that needs to be made public, I have faith that Tned will let us know.

[Dreadnought]

However, I think appeals should go to Tned only via PM or the suggestion box or something. I don't see anything good coming out of a public appeal. If there is something that needs to be made public, I have faith that Tned will let us know.

I could not agree more Frau. These should never be public.

[Thnikkaman]

Actually.....I think that a trial period is a good idea. I'd be down with that.......as long as someone gives me an IP. I never got one over at the Freak. :confused:

However, I think appeals should go to Tned only via PM or the suggestion box or something. I don't see anything good coming out of a public appeal. If there is something that needs to be made public, I have faith that Tned will let us know.

I could agree with that, however, I don't think the appeals should go just to Tned. There should be a pm address that gets to all the mods. Thus freeing Tned from being the only person having do deal with the appeals.

[Dreadnought]

I would also propose a minor infraction might be handed out for political postings outside the P&R forum, with that offense being increased drastically if done by a member who has had P&R privileges revoked. This is to prevent continued carrying on outside of P&R by members under a P&R ban, and because some folks opt out of P&R for the express purpose of avoiding political controversy.

[Tned]

Great input guys, thanks. Keep it coming.

[NightTrainLayne]

Actually.....I think that a trial period is a good idea. I'd be down with that.......as long as someone gives me an IP. I never got one over at the Freak. :confused:

However, I think appeals should go to Tned only via PM or the suggestion box or something. I don't see anything good coming out of a public appeal. If there is something that needs to be made public, I have faith that Tned will let us know.

Why hasn't Frau been hired as a moderator yet? :D

[Grover]

I think an IP system is all ****'d up and whoever suggested it is a moron.
Did I win? Was I the first to get IP points?

Ok, all kidding aside, I'd rather have a board that is self regulating, but human nature as it is, that probably won't happen. So I agree that an IP system with specific values for infractions is a good idea to give a try. What has been suggested seems as good a place to start as any.

It can always be adjusted along the way if certain things don't work. Like maybe going up to 2 points for language filter infractions.

A hockey analogy comes to mind - the penalty box. Five for fighting.

I say go for it.

[Dreadnought]

I could agree with that, however, I don't think the appeals should go just to Tned. There should be a pm address that gets to all the mods. Thus freeing Tned from being the only person having do deal with the appeals.

The problem with this Thnik is that if a member thinks they are being persecuted by a Mod they ought to feel free to discuss this freely with Tned without the Mod being aware

[Dreadnought]

Why hasn't Frau been hired as a moderator yet? :D

Because she is too good looking. Apart from Carol we have standards to uphold :coffee:

[Tned]

I could agree with that, however, I don't think the appeals should go just to Tned. There should be a pm address that gets to all the mods. Thus freeing Tned from being the only person having do deal with the appeals.

If we implement the system, we can address the appeals system in detail.

One problem with sending appeals to mods, is that it puts them in a tough position.

Moderator A gives an infraction
Moderator B reviews it and determines it wasn't fair/justified and reverses it

That's a tough position to put moderator B in, and it is probably better that I am the one doing it, since I won't be handing out infractions.

Alternatively, or as a "down the road" thing, we could consider a group of forum members which are an "appeals court", so to speak, but that seems over-kill in my mind, and it would be better to see if a simplified appeals process doesn't work, before trying to overcomplicate things.

[HolyDiver]

I think, one stike, and you're out, is the best way to go..........Tough love.........It's for their own good.

[frauschieze]

Because she is too good looking. Apart from Carol we have standards to uphold :coffee:

Discrimination!


;)

[pnbronco]

I think clear boundaries are always best with a quick reminder that you have crossed them, so a IP system seems to fit that bill. Tned I can see in your writing that this has become work for you and that's not why you started this board. You have been so generous with your time and money that what ever you need to do to make your life easier then please do it. From where I sit the Mods are fair people and I would trust their judgment with the guild lines you have proposed.

[girler]

I like the ideas here, and think a 30 day trial starting now with appeals to Tned is a great way to start. :salute:

[Northman]

I've been for an IP (infraction point) system any time that it's been mentioned, and I like the examples of points and time-frames that Tned has laid out. This would in essence give a three-strikes and your out type of philosophy for major issues, but minor ones would be more-or-less a slap on the wrist. . .only adding on to major issues if there are any.

I would add just one other idea from my experience at the Freak. You should add an additional infraction (I'm not sure what level, but probably along the lines of 5 points) for starting a thread, or questioning publicly any infraction's handed out. Nothing causes more problems imo than a bunch of threads running around criticizing the mods actions.

That's not to say you can't question an infraction in private through pm's with the mods and/or Tned. There's just no need for the public airing of dirty laundry.


Well said and i agree.

[CoachChaz]

I'll buy into this. Seems like there are probably only a few people this would actually affect anyway. I think if some of the tenured and regular members start getting into trouble for petty stuff, then I might have a problem with it, but I'm confident the mods here know most people well enough to know when an infraction was intentional or not.

[Northman]

I could agree with that, however, I don't think the appeals should go just to Tned. There should be a pm address that gets to all the mods. Thus freeing Tned from being the only person having do deal with the appeals.


Well, that would happen pretty much anyway. If Tned gets an appeal he would then automatically address and update us about it. But good point never the less.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

With whatever system is decided upon, we all need to keep in mind that the mods can not/do not see every violation. Therefore, if a member gets a violation for a particular reason, and another poster does the same thing, and does not receive a violation, it does not mean that the mods are biased. We need everyone's help. If you see something - report it.

[Day1BroncoFan]

I say do it if you need to. I won't be getting any IP's because I don't break the rules so I won't be worrying about it.

People need to know there are consequences for their actions.

[Davii]

I think it's a great idea TNed. It will add more transparency to the system, and will allow the individual users another concrete way to see how close they are to losing certain privileges.

More so than a mod saying "knock it off" they can see the knock it off message and the 15 points they just amassed.

[atwater27]

I think you are creating too much work for yourselves. Instead of creating all these checklists and point systems, just go with your gut and fire at will. Let the whiners whine in silence. Would you guys stop bending over backwards just to dot every I and cross every T in the fairness department?

[Traveler]

I think you are creating too much work for yourselves. Instead of creating all these checklists and point systems, just go with your gut and fire at will. Let the whiners whine in silence. Would you guys stop bending over backwards just to dot every I and cross every T in the fairness department?

OMG! I'm agreeing with you again (for the 1st time).;)

[CoachChaz]

OMG! I'm agreeing with you again (for the 1st time).;)

I did the same thing. Crazy day!!!

[Traveler]

More important, it is similar to what works VERY well on thousands of other message boards. It is a built in and commonly used feature on vBulletin boards..

Meaning there is a built-in filter that tracks infractions so mods don't have to?

If that's the case, it does eliminate the bias and subjectivity of the mods.

I'd have no problem it this was implemented.

An infraction is an infraction. Evenly applied and fair to all.

[atwater27]

We all have enough rules at school, work and I guess some of us at home. Isn't the internet supposed to be somewhat of an escape from the rat race and constant ridgid schedules, guidelines and codes of conduct? Christ, we make any more rule implementations here, will we have to go to an orientation seminar to post?

[claymore]

Im scared we are getting to nit picky... I dont see a problem. So I dont see a solution.

[HolyDiver]

Im scared we are getting to nit picky... I dont see a problem. So I dont see a solution.

You mean............TOO nit picky?

[Dreadnought]

Im scared we are getting to nit picky... I dont see a problem. So I dont see a solution.

And have you opted back in to P&R yet Clay, or is there still too much foolishness, insults, and generally crappy behaviour there? That's kind of the point.

As to Atwater27's contention, I would argue that the worst effect of the Internet is that it has serously eroded people's good manners and consideration. People post stuff regularly they would never say to a friend or aquaintance. Its a pretty clear sense I've gotten that the majority of the membership here does not want this to be a free fire zone. With all due respect to the fine people at the Mane extremely lax moderation is why I don't post there at all. Its just not fun for many people. Some folks enjoy that atmosphere, and thats fine, but the idea here is not to simply become a copy of another board with different background colors. What we are trying to hammer out is a set of rules most of us can live with, and where the people whose views are not best represented by whatever comes out of this can at least say that they had a shot at expressing their POV.

[OB]

Coming from a person who has made only one complaint (other than reporting a spammer) i dont get who these people are that are whining and complaining about other people - seriously - i have had my feelers hurt on the boards 100's of times and like i said I reported someone only once (i believe) cause IMO it went way over the line and wasnt only happening to me - with this said im sure i have outed myself but i am not also one for hiding behind anything -

I dont want a CP system - that just ended up being a one upsmanship deal and I didnt really care for it

IP i dont have a problem with at all - if it makes life easier for Tneds and the Mods - why not - if someone doesnt like it they can leave - its that simple - Tned is awesome for discussing it first but if it makes his life easier - he pays the bills and should be able to do what he wants - plain and simple

Now when i get enough to be banned i will raise hell but until then its all good ;)

PS - Not sure how much circumventing the filter language should be IP'd - sometimes some of us - not me :whistle: will forget they are not in the lounge and say something like f that - it was not intentional and when brought to my ( i mean their) attention i (i mean they) always apologize and if it hasnt been fixed i (they) will fix it

[GEM]

I don't see a ton of these issues going on so I'm guessing that most of it is happening in P&R. If P&R is this out of control, bag it. Goodness sakes....are we all not adults here? :tsk:

Tearing apart our football message board over piddly bs that NO ONE is going to change their opinion on is ridiculous.

I saw that the IP system at Mania is one of the things that killed that board, and here we are at the same point here. If it makes it better for the mods and T, go for it. But let's not turn this into Mania just for the sake of having a P&R section.

[Dreadnought]

I don't see a ton of these issues going on so I'm guessing that most of it is happening in P&R. If P&R is this out of control, bag it. Goodness sakes....are we all not adults here? :tsk:

Tearing apart our football message board over piddly bs that NO ONE is going to change their opinion on is ridiculous.

I saw that the IP system at Mania is one of the things that killed that board, and here we are at the same point here. If it makes it better for the mods and T, go for it. But let's not turn this into Mania just for the sake of having a P&R section.

Actually P&R has been pretty civil for a good number of days now; our worst most recent outbreaks have been elsewhere.

[NightTrainLayne]

Actually P&R has been pretty civil for a good number of days now; our worst most recent outbreaks have been elsewhere.

I agree P&R has been just delightful lately. I've enjoyed a spot of tea more than once this past week in there, and only had to throw a crumpet at Cswil once.

[claymore]

And have you opted back in to P&R yet Clay, or is there still too much foolishness, insults, and generally crappy behaviour there? That's kind of the point.

As to Atwater27's contention, I would argue that the worst effect of the Internet is that it has serously eroded people's good manners and consideration. People post stuff regularly they would never say to a friend or aquaintance. Its a pretty clear sense I've gotten that the majority of the membership here does not want this to be a free fire zone. With all due respect to the fine people at the Mane extremely lax moderation is why I don't post there at all. Its just not fun for many people. Some folks enjoy that atmosphere, and thats fine, but the idea here is not to simply become a copy of another board with different background colors. What we are trying to hammer out is a set of rules most of us can live with, and where the people whose views are not best represented by whatever comes out of this can at least say that they had a shot at expressing their POV.

I havent opted in because I know I will never change any ones opinion, and If I get liqured up, I know I get pissed off and say stuff I dont mean. I essentialy removed myself, because I am one of the problems.

[Dreadnought]

I havent opted in because I know I will never change any ones opinion, and If I get liqured up, I know I get pissed off and say stuff I dont mean. I essentialy removed myself, because I am one of the problems.

Well that and we made you wear pants the whole time you were posting...

Seriously, I can understand that, though I've never seen you post mean, just a bit goofy. IMO. On occasion.

[Traveler]

I don't see a ton of these issues going on so I'm guessing that most of it is happening in P&R. If P&R is this out of control, bag it. Goodness sakes....are we all not adults here? :tsk:

Tearing apart our football message board over piddly bs that NO ONE is going to change their opinion on is ridiculous.

I saw that the IP system at Mania is one of the things that killed that board, and here we are at the same point here. If it makes it better for the mods and T, go for it. But let's not turn this into Mania just for the sake of having a P&R section.

Ditto! My guess is that the P&R is the culprit. Kill it and this board should be fine. Anymore regulation here and I'll be forced to consider leaving. Though some folks here would be ecstatic if I did go away.:laugh:

[Tned]

I think you are creating too much work for yourselves. Instead of creating all these checklists and point systems, just go with your gut and fire at will. Let the whiners whine in silence. Would you guys stop bending over backwards just to dot every I and cross every T in the fairness department?

Actually, it is the other way around. This is BY far less work then the "go with your gut" approach. In this scenario, after the initial setup, which is minimal, then everything else takes care of itself.

[Tned]

Ditto! My guess is that the P&R is the culprit. Kill it and this board should be fine. Anymore regulation here and I'll be forced to consider leaving. Though some folks here would be ecstatic if I did go away.:laugh:

It's not just a P&R issue. During the draft time frame and in preseason, we had significant problems in Broncos Talk. It varies. Thankfully, we don't have Plummer to really create problems, but if the Broncos lose more than they win in the second half of the season, the tempers will continue to flair in Broncos Talk.

What it comes down to is many peoplle have complained that we don't act quick enough, or punish those that break the rules. In addition, that when bans are handed out, they aren't fairly dished out. This is adding NO more rules, this is providing away for us to automatically track, and deal with repeat rules offenders.

All of the rules are currently in place, however not everyone follows them. That's an important distinction. This isn't adding more rules, this is setting up a system to deal fairly, but firmly with those that don't follow the rules already in place.

[GEM]

I agree that if it is getting to overwhelming to the admins then it is obviously time to do something! As far as which direction to go? I think that is something the Admins should agree on.

Part of the Problem i have noticed is that the same rules apply to posters that are here that represent a different team than what the website is advertising. Now as far as i am concerned if you are not a Bronco fan you are a guest!! So maybe as they register initially to the forum they are given a choice as to which team they represent? Reason being at this point if they pick other than the Broncos then they become a guest!

And making the rules for guests more strict simply because it would be the same as visiting someones home you would simply act better than you would in your own house. And since the choosing of one of 32 Teams initially at the point of registration most people are going to pick the team they like best because "everyone" is proud of there team. And since it is at the point of registration then thier is no way of knowing that this rule is in place since they have yet been able to see the boards or its rules. And if the instance occurs where they have chosen the Broncos just to pretend they are a fan then the rules at which apply for members being more leniant but at the same time what Native Carol said alot of things won't be seen and they need to be reported. So what I am saying is that if this instance occurs then they would automatically be banned for a period of a week and thier status changed to guest by a mod at that time.

Now as far as the language filter goes I really don't know what to think about this? There are so many ways to make personal attacks without posting words that have "*" in them. for Instance and I do get this alot, "post was ok but it could definitely use more comma's, or you are missing alot of punctuation. To me this is an attack simply because I am not here to apply for a jounalist job and I am not trying to win the pulitzer prize. So what does my grammer have to do with, "why cutler is throwing 10 Int's this year?" To me it is giving the poster the capabilities to say hey you are a dumbass and you need to go back to school **** face! Of course I am going to see this response before a mod does because this is happening in a thread I am following so my reaction is going to be KMA. So at what point do you say hmmmm we can overlook this posters response because it was a personal attack to begin with. Sarcasm is as dangerous as to having the filter in a sense.

So I guess it should come down to "what initiated this response?" And maybe that is a process the mods already use IDK? But the fact that the language filter to be used in a response to a comment such as the one posted above should be considered a pass simply because it is giving the sarcastic poster a sign that say hey this person is upset about my sarcasm or criticism, Maybe i should apologize (which would be the proper thing to do) or maybe they don't respond back to the KMA comment which would leave it as is, or if their is retaliation to the KMA comment then it would or should be reported at that point and a Mod would have to determine at that point if the language filer infraction was in self defense or was it being used to get a rise?

IDK just my two cents and I definitely would like to see the Admin's get a break because they are Football fans too and would also like to read about certain topics so whatever you decide I am cool with it. But if someone personal attacks me I will have a mindset of website or not they are going to get an ear full! Because it does boil down to respect as if you are talking face to face to someone and the fact that nobody is better than anyone on here.

Anyway keep up the great work and I will support whatever you decide thanks BRR!:beer:


One talking point......


KCLady and DC aren't guests, they're family. ;)

[underrated29]

this sounds good to me. Do what you gotta do tned.

[MOtorboat]

One talking point......


KCLady and DC aren't guests, they're family. ;)

The "slow" part of the family, but yes, part of the family.

I'm sorry, but you can't have separate rules for fan's of other teams. Then we become exactly what that bolttalk web site is. I don't want that.

[NightTrainLayne]

One talking point......


KCLady and DC aren't guests, they're family. ;)

I would add King87 to that list.

[BroncosRockdaRockies]

ok deleted my thoughts no worries. :beer:

[LRtagger]

I can give you some input based on how another forum of which I am a member enforces these types of policies (an automotive forum).

Each member starts out with a 100% user rating. Different types of infractions inflict different types of penalties to your user rating.

Say, something like circumventing the language filter gives you a 10% decrease in user rating while something like a personal attack would warrant a 20-25% decrease.

When your user rating is decreased to say 50%, you receive a temporary ban (one week or whatever). When you return, the same rules apply. If your user rating goes down to 0% it is instant perma-ban.

Each time the user violates the rules, a PM is sent to the person displaying the reason for the infraction and the user rating penalty. You can view your user rating at any time in your User CP.

Also, with our hi-five system, you could implement rewards for a certain number of positive posts. Say for every 100 hi-fives you receive, your user rating goes up 5% or something. This will ensure that the people who contribute to the site in a positive manner are rewarded. Or, if you go "x" amount of time (say 3 months) without an infraction, your user rating increases by 5%. Of course, you can't exceed 100%, but this allows the people who may have made one or two posts in bad judgement not be penalized forever for it should they decide to be contributing members.

Of course there would still be instant bans for spamming and adversiting, etc, but you get the idea.

[GEM]

ok deleted my thoughts no worries. :beer:

I"m happy I quoted you then....as I agreed with some of your other thoughts, I just disagreed on that one. ;)

[OMorange&blue]

As long as sig bets remain ok I am cool with it.

[frauschieze]

I can give you some input based on how another forum of which I am a member enforces these types of policies (an automotive forum).

Each member starts out with a 100% user rating. Different types of infractions inflict different types of penalties to your user rating.

Say, something like circumventing the language filter gives you a 10% decrease in user rating while something like a personal attack would warrant a 20-25% decrease.

When your user rating is decreased to say 50%, you receive a temporary ban (one week or whatever). When you return, the same rules apply. If your user rating goes down to 0% it is instant perma-ban.

Each time the user violates the rules, a PM is sent to the person displaying the reason for the infraction and the user rating penalty. You can view your user rating at any time in your User CP.

Also, with our hi-five system, you could implement rewards for a certain number of positive posts. Say for every 100 hi-fives you receive, your user rating goes up 5% or something. This will ensure that the people who contribute to the site in a positive manner are rewarded. Or, if you go "x" amount of time (say 3 months) without an infraction, your user rating increases by 5%. Of course, you can't exceed 100%, but this allows the people who may have made one or two posts in bad judgement not be penalized forever for it should they decide to be contributing members.

Of course there would still be instant bans for spamming and adversiting, etc, but you get the idea.

Interesting alternative.

I see potential problems with high fiving increasing a user rating for two reasons:

1. It is suspiciously similar to a CP system which many from the Mania a vehemently opposed to. Personally, I don't care except for....

2. Clique problems. Theoretically, if I get banned (or close to it), I could probably get enough people to go through and high-five enough of my posts to get reinstated (or move into safer territory). The same probably isn't true for all other members. That would lead to unequal application of the rules, which is the whole thing we're trying to avoid.

But the overall percentage rating is a different means to the same ends. Gives us something a little different to think about.

[dogfish]

I would also propose a minor infraction might be handed out for political postings outside the P&R forum, with that offense being increased drastically if done by a member who has had P&R privileges revoked. This is to prevent continued carrying on outside of P&R by members under a P&R ban, and because some folks opt out of P&R for the express purpose of avoiding political controversy.


eeeexcellent!


http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9844/mrburnsro5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



If we implement the system, we can address the appeals system in detail.

One problem with sending appeals to mods, is that it puts them in a tough position.

Moderator A gives an infraction
Moderator B reviews it and determines it wasn't fair/justified and reverses it

That's a tough position to put moderator B in, and it is probably better that I am the one doing it, since I won't be handing out infractions.

Alternatively, or as a "down the road" thing, we could consider a group of forum members which are an "appeals court", so to speak, but that seems over-kill in my mind, and it would be better to see if a simplified appeals process doesn't work, before trying to overcomplicate things.


i agree that the appeals can't go to the mods-- that's not going to work. . . also, PLEASE don't waste time setting up an "appeals court"-- that is just WAAAAY too much effort to spend on this whole thing. . . . keep it simple, not every single person has to be appeased on every issue for the board to run properly!

also, if you're going to listen to appeals, IMO you abso-freakin'-loutely need to make an ironclad rule of not more than one appeal per month per person. . . otherwise, 95% of the IPs issued will end up right back on your desk, and you'll end up doing four times as much work as you're doing now instead of less. . . . if people are getting multiple IPs, let them suck it up and deal with it-- don't encourage them to cry about it and play the martyr, it's not that big a deal. . . .

and cheese is right, i'm entirely against the idea of high-fives reducing your IPs. . . that effectively says that if someone is popular they don't have to obey the rules. . .

[Midnight Blue]

Another idea re: the infraction points... perhaps they could be set to "expire" after a given amount of time. Say a person gets an infraction for a personal attack but after a month's time has been a model "netizen" with no further ill-advised posts... then perhaps the infraction could "expire" returning the poster's status back to where it was before the offense...

[MOtorboat]

Another idea re: the infraction points... perhaps they could be set to "expire" after a given amount of time. Say a person gets an infraction for a personal attack but after a month's time has been a model "netizen" with no further ill-advised posts... then perhaps the infraction could "expire" returning the poster's status back to where it was before the offense...

That was part of Tned's proposed plan, yes.

[GEM]

Another idea re: the infraction points... perhaps they could be set to "expire" after a given amount of time. Say a person gets an infraction for a personal attack but after a month's time has been a model "netizen" with no further ill-advised posts... then perhaps the infraction could "expire" returning the poster's status back to where it was before the offense...


If they could go away after they expire it would be great.

I got one IP at Mania a year and a half ago and can still see it to this day. Crappy reminder for telling a guy off because he said a woman's place is in the kitchen.

[MOtorboat]

If they could go away after they expire it would be great.

I got one IP at Mania a year and a half ago and can still see it to this day. Crappy reminder for telling a guy off because he said a woman's place is in the kitchen.

Its in Tned's original post, and yes they'd go away...although in the Freak system you could see all of your infractions, regardless of when they happened or if they expired, if you wanted to.

[girler]

also, if you're going to listen to appeals, IMO you abso-freakin'-loutely need to make an ironclad rule of not more than one appeal per month per person. . . otherwise, 95% of the IPs issued will end up right back on your desk, and you'll end up doing four times as much work as you're doing now instead of less. . . . if people are getting multiple IPs, let them suck it up and deal with it-- don't encourage them to cry about it and play the martyr, it's not that big a deal. . . .



I was thinking the appeals thing could be like football's instant replay. A poster gets only 2 per game (year?) and if the replay (appeal) isn't good enough to overturn in just a few minutes, then the original call stands. :salute: That should make things easier on Tned.

[Thnikkaman]

If we implement the system, we can address the appeals system in detail.

One problem with sending appeals to mods, is that it puts them in a tough position.

Moderator A gives an infraction
Moderator B reviews it and determines it wasn't fair/justified and reverses it

That's a tough position to put moderator B in, and it is probably better that I am the one doing it, since I won't be handing out infractions.

Alternatively, or as a "down the road" thing, we could consider a group of forum members which are an "appeals court", so to speak, but that seems over-kill in my mind, and it would be better to see if a simplified appeals process doesn't work, before trying to overcomplicate things.

I would think that the appeals court idea would be ideal. A group of members who have no other power than to review appeals. I completely understand that there is no perfect solution, and there may be no need for it initially. There just needs to be someone who is watching the moderators, or at least helping insure that there is some consistancy with infractions being given out.

[MOtorboat]

I would think that the appeals court idea would be ideal. A group of members who have no other power than to review appeals. I completely understand that there is no perfect solution, and there may be no need for it initially. There just needs to be someone who is watching the moderators, or at least helping insure that there is some consistancy with infractions being given out.

Didn't this already exist before us Freaks joined up?

[dogfish]

I would think that the appeals court idea would be ideal. A group of members who have no other power than to review appeals. I completely understand that there is no perfect solution, and there may be no need for it initially. There just needs to be someone who is watching the moderators, or at least helping insure that there is some consistancy with infractions being given out.

or, people could just man up and not cry about it if they get an IP. . . i mean, seriously, do we really need an appeals process for message board IPs?

:noidea:



if someone's going to lose their posting privileges maybe i can see it, but otherwise it's just making more unnecessary work for T and/or someone else IMO. . . why not keep it as simple as possible? i was on the advisory board when we had one, and i can tell you that getting multiple people to review IPs is going to be waaaaay more trouble than it's worth. . .

[Tned]

If they could go away after they expire it would be great.

I got one IP at Mania a year and a half ago and can still see it to this day. Crappy reminder for telling a guy off because he said a woman's place is in the kitchen.

I know what you mean, it is irritating to see. By default, vBulletin does not have any way for them to dissapear after they expire. It is possible I might be able to write some custom code to make that happn, but I can't promise anything.

[gnomeflinger]

Has someone mentioned a warning before an IP? Like, if someone uses the F word in the non-lounge and hasn't had a history, give them a chance to go oops my bad, and fix it. If they don't, then they know what they did and should get a warning. The next violation should be an automatic IP since they were given a chance to right the wrong and didn't.

I didn't read every word, so I missed it if someone mentioned what I am thinking.

[MOtorboat]

Has someone mentioned a warning before an IP? Like, if someone uses the F word in the non-lounge and hasn't had a history, give them a chance to go oops my bad, and fix it. If they don't, then they know what they did and should get a warning. The next violation should be an automatic IP since they were given a chance to right the wrong and didn't.

I didn't read every word, so I missed it if someone mentioned what I am thinking.

That brings subjectivity right back in to the objective system. And who's going to keep track of who has been warned and who should get posts. I certainly don't expect every mod to remember that list.

I like the proposed system a lot.

[GEM]

I don't know where else to put this, so......


I come to this place for fun. Lately, it just isn't a whole lot of fun. When it becomes more drama then fun, time for me to take a walk.

**Let me add as that was pretty vague.**

Why can't we all just be adults and have a good time. Why can't we all just understand that there are a crapload of personalities here, some just aren't going to get along. Loosen up a bit. Don't be so friggen quick to get offended. Leave P&R in P&R, if you can't...it's time to opt out. Most everything in the Lounge is laugh it up comedy with not a whole lot of seriousness to it. If you KNOW that someone is joking, don't hit the friggen report button. Mods... I love you all, but sometimes jumping on posts when you know the intent of the post is OVERBOARD.

I dunno....I'm just disappointed that we all drove this place into the very things we hated about other places. It's time for US ALL to grow the F up and either deal with ish like grown adults, not a bunch of sissy mary la la's.

[Thnikkaman]

or, people could just man up and not cry about it if they get an IP. . . i mean, seriously, do we really need an appeals process for message board IPs?

:noidea:



if someone's going to lose their posting privileges maybe i can see it, but otherwise it's just making more unnecessary work for T and/or someone else IMO. . . why not keep it as simple as possible? i was on the advisory board when we had one, and i can tell you that getting multiple people to review IPs is going to be waaaaay more trouble than it's worth. . .

My suggestions are based on T-Ned wanting it to be as fair as possible. I feel like I do a fair job of policing myself. I also feel that the old broncos freak infraction system worked well.

Its T-Neds site, and for as much as people are against an infraction system in the first place, I thought that the appeals would be a way to ease the pain for those who are against it. I think that T-Ned should go with the decision that frees him up to enjoy the board, and maintains the current size (or grows) of the user base as much as possible.

[Dreadnought]

I don't know where else to put this, so......


I come to this place for fun. Lately, it just isn't a whole lot of fun. When it becomes more drama then fun, time for me to take a walk.

Hmmm....lets see....3 losses in our last four games, all of them embarrassing, and most recently a 41-7 shellacking at the hands of a banged up and mediocre Pats team...and a bye, so we get extra time to ponder it...that may all play into this GEM.

The SOB's need to play with some damned heart or it will get even crankier around here.

[GEM]

Hmmm....lets see....3 losses in our last four games, all of them embarrassing, and most recently a 41-7 shellacking at the hands of a banged up and mediocre Pats team...and a bye, so we get extra time to ponder it...that may all play into this GEM.

The SOB's need to play with some damned heart or it will get even crankier around here.

Perhaps, but the main reason I come here isn't the Broncos...it's the friends I've made here. I see alot of people leaving and also see a lot of complaints.

[gnomeflinger]

I don't know where else to put this, so......


I come to this place for fun. Lately, it just isn't a whole lot of fun. When it becomes more drama then fun, time for me to take a walk.

**Let me add as that was pretty vague.**

Why can't we all just be adults and have a good time. Why can't we all just understand that there are a crapload of personalities here, some just aren't going to get along. Loosen up a bit. Don't be so friggen quick to get offended. Leave P&R in P&R, if you can't...it's time to opt out. Most everything in the Lounge is laugh it up comedy with not a whole lot of seriousness to it. If you KNOW that someone is joking, don't hit the friggen report button. Mods... I love you all, but sometimes jumping on posts when you know the intent of the post is OVERBOARD.

I dunno....I'm just disappointed that we all drove this place into the very things we hated about other places. It's time for US ALL to grow the F up and either deal with ish like grown adults, not a bunch of sissy mary la la's.

I'm with you GEM. This is my playground. I come here for fun. I understand the need for moderators. If someone offends, take it off the board and PM about it or whatever. Give the adults a chance to solve problems like adults before being put in the corner for a time out. If there is no resolution, take it to the mod for arbitration.

Sometimes, peeps don't realize they are being offensive. Then other peeps will complain saying I don't think that was called for. Then perhaps the mod can let the first peep know that someone didn't think what they said was appropriate and let it fix itself out.

I see both sides. But where is the line between letting us have fun, act like adults, make adult jokes, and not being treated like children?

I think anyone who joins needs to have a thick skin or get one really quick because most everyone here is not serious when they're ribbing each other.

[Midnight Blue]

A thick skin makes one's experiences more positive on any internet message forum, IMHO... one really can't take stuff posted in cyberspace seriously and/or let it really bother them in real life. But it doesn't hurt to remind everyone that there are real people... with real feelings that could be hurt... behind the keyboards.

[GEM]

A thick skin makes one's experiences more positive on any internet message forum, IMHO... one really can't take stuff posted in cyberspace seriously and/or let it really bother them in real life. But it doesn't hurt to remind everyone that there are real people... with real feelings that could be hurt... behind the keyboards.

Completely agree Blue. As long as people aren't using another member as the butt of the joke, I don't see any issues.

I dunno, I'm so hard to offend that I guess I don't understand that someone else could. I have stress in my life to deal with, that last thing I want to do is spend time creating more or dealing with more.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Not a fan of the IP idea. Seems like just another step away from "By the fans - for the fans."

One other comment about the language filter issue mentioned earlier....

Here's an idea, DON'T USE THE WORDS THAT ARE BANNED!! If you use ANY method to get around them, and you set up a system that allows that to happen (by way of giving them a point value), why ban them at all?

As we are told all the time when discussing changes to the boards, this is a football forum first, everything else second. Why is it so hard to discuss things without the use of profanity?

/rant

[bcbronc]

an IP system seems good if people can't deal with internetting. but I'd have a few concerns, being as anti-establishment as I am.

now I don't really know the ins and outs of an IP system, so some of these might be redundant.

1-already touched on, but there should be an appeal system. I agree that almost everyone would appeal almost every IP if it is left wide open, so there would need to be a way to ensure restraint. either a limited amount of appeals or perhaps repercussions if someone appeals an obviously deserved IP (maybe a temp ban for an appeal that is clearly just a waste of time).

2-who IPs the mods? would mods be willing to IP other mods? I know, I know, mods would never violate the CoC, but just in case there should be a system to ensure mods have to follow the rules just like everyone else. no "chenney exceptions".

3-I'd also take the IP process one step further. if you repeatedly get temp bans, then it should become permanent. maybe if you get 3 temp bans, you lose your membership card. I mean, really, it's ridiculous to get banned even once from a message board, but repeatedly? come on. if the same handful of posters are always getting temp bans, nuke 'em.

that is all.

[Slick]

Not a fan of the IP idea. Seems like just another step away from "By the fans - for the fans."

One other comment about the language filter issue mentioned earlier....

Here's an idea, DON'T USE THE WORDS THAT ARE BANNED!! If you use ANY method to get around them, and you set up a system that allows that to happen (by way of giving them a point value), why ban them at all?

As we are told all the time when discussing changes to the boards, this is a football forum first, everything else second. Why is it so hard to discuss things without the use of profanity?

/rant

I agree Mtn. The few rules we have here are pretty easy to abide by. Why complicate things further with an IP system?

As far as the language filter, it seems to me that if I really feel the need to cuss in a post, I can type pretty much any word I want to other than a F bomb and that's fine with me.

It's too bad that we have to discuss things like this for a small minority of people who can't seem to follow the rules.

I wish I had more constructive input. I guess if the Mods and you, Tned, feel that an IP system will allow the forums to work better, or make everyone's job easier, than you should do it. I just fail to see how it simplifies anything.

[Timmy!]

I like it. The point values make sense as well. I was against the language filter violation at first, but if it's only 1 point, you'd literally have to violate it 20 times in a week just to lose the opt-ins. Sounds like it will make the mods and Tneds job easier.


Now, about that rep thing....... :D

[OB]

**** this shzinet - LMAO j/k

its bottle #1 talking ;)

As i said b4 i like the IP system - and the points going away after a certain amount of time - IDC if they are visible to me 4ever - it could be a good reminder to behave but since i always behave :pound: its not an issue

tned seriously everyone seems to be on board - and if it make your life easier and gives u the ability to post more - lets just get r done - im sure uve discussed it with mods - so...what we waitin for ;)

[Thnikkaman]

Not a fan of the IP idea. Seems like just another step away from "By the fans - for the fans."

One other comment about the language filter issue mentioned earlier....

Here's an idea, DON'T USE THE WORDS THAT ARE BANNED!! If you use ANY method to get around them, and you set up a system that allows that to happen (by way of giving them a point value), why ban them at all?

As we are told all the time when discussing changes to the boards, this is a football forum first, everything else second. Why is it so hard to discuss things without the use of profanity?

/rant

That would be great in a world where everyone respects the rules. Unfortunately, this is not such a world. Therefore, iff (thats if and only if) Tned wants to keep an open door community that he would like to continue to promote growth, then there needs to be some way to ensure the members that follow the rules that there will be means to reprimand those that don't. If TNed wants to make this site fun for him (which it is sounding like it is not right now) he needs a way to keep the peace with minimal work from his side.

It may be for the fans, by the fans, but he owns the domain, is paying for the server space and database that embodies this forum, and is paying for some amount of bandwidth to keep it open. Considering how active these forums are, I would guess that the operating cost of this site is probably somewhere between 50-200 dollars a month. Maybe I'm a bum, but I don't see any obvious place on this site where he is asking for donations to keep it running. So, if it means that an IP system needs to be put in place so that this hobby of TNeds remains a hobby, then I'm for it.

[Hobe]

It has never ceased to amaze me that people become offended when called to task for behavior on an Internet board that would clearly land them in the Dean’s office at school or a manager’s office or HR office at work. My feelings about the board are fairly blunt…

Use of this board is a privilege, not a right. Tned owes us nothing. The fact that he spends so much time and effort, and tolerates so much aggravation, to provide us this wonderful little playground is amazing.

I support the IP system as put forth in Tned’s post. Besides, the description in Tned’s post I have a few suggestions. I don’t know if these are built in to the system or even possible, but here goes…

1>Accumulated IPs with reference to offense and expiration dates should viewable in the User CP area. Points should not be publicly viewable.
2>Warning PMs should be automatically sent when possible. I’m not sure how well this will work. Some situations snowballed so quickly that no warning system could be faster then the direct action. In some cases it could be a heads-up for someone that is goofing around too much.
3>There still needs to be a “death sentence”, a permanent ban; because some people never learn.
4>To me the worst offenses are personal attacks, harassment, and baiting. The IPs for these should a longer duration.

[Tned]

I support the IP system as put forth in Tned’s post. Besides, the description in Tned’s post I have a few suggestions. I don’t know if these are built in to the system or even possible, but here goes…

1>Accumulated IPs with reference to offense and expiration dates should viewable in the User CP area. Points should not be publicly viewable.
2>Warning PMs should be automatically sent when possible. I’m not sure how well this will work. Some situations snowballed so quickly that no warning system could be faster then the direct action. In some cases it could be a heads-up for someone that is goofing around too much.
3>There still needs to be a “death sentence”, a permanent ban; because some people never learn.
4>To me the worst offenses are personal attacks, harassment, and batting. The IPs for these should a longer duration.

All of those are configurable within the built in infraction points system. A PM can be (at the mods discretion) sent to a user when an infraction is given. The total points a user has is visible to the mods/admin and the user in question.

There is still the ability to do traditional manual bans of any length, they aren't exclusive.

Also, for any given infraction of any type, the system can be configured to allow the mods to issue a zero point, warning infraction. So, lets say we have a new poster that doesn't know the rules. The mod has the option of issuing an infraction, but marking it as a warning, so the members is PM'd, given a warning, but no points are issued.

[slim]

Should all of the following 'equally' count as a strike:

Someone typing f'k and circumventing the language filter
Someone typing "geez, apparently you don't know how to read"
Someone typing "you are a worthless piece of shit, and I hope you die a slow, painful death"




I think number 3 should warrant a harsher penalty...unless it is direct at cswil, in which case this type of post should be rewarded.

[claymore]

I think number 3 should warrant a harsher penalty...unless it is direct at cswil, in which case this type of post should be rewarded.

I only said that to one poster, and he is banned now. so it doesnt count'ish.

[slim]

I only said that to one poster, and he is banned now. so it doesnt count'ish.

I have said it a few times. But don't tell tned :listen:

[ApaOps5]

Well I think this is making Broncos Forums one step closer to Kiddie Mania. Something most everyone who posts here doesn't like. I just don't think this place has run amok and warrant even more moderation.

[Tned]

Well I think this is making Broncos Forums one step closer to Kiddie Mania. Something most everyone who posts here doesn't like. I just don't think this place has run amok and warrant even more moderation.

How is it 'more' moderation?

[Thnikkaman]

Well I think this is making Broncos Forums one step closer to Kiddie Mania. Something most everyone who posts here doesn't like. I just don't think this place has run amok and warrant even more moderation.

It could be opt in only.

Here are the forum rules (and I have posted them here before), of a forum I have belonged to for 8 years and is still active:



# Apply for access in the Welcome Wagon.
No inflammatory, religious, racist, or political discussions, and no porn or swearing.
#
No thread terrorism (hijacking of threads, spamming people).
#
Inter-forum fighting will not be tolerated. This is our home, don't bring someone else's crap into it.
#
No nude or semi-nude sigs or images, please link all potentially not work or family safe material and mark it as DO NOT CLICK FROM WORK in your message.
#
Respect the people in this forum and in other forums - CoF is about being fun and honest, and having respect for others.
#
We're here to have fun, and to FRAG!!
#
Talk of warez, illegal software, or any of Apple's latest creations for the computer illiterate is not allowed.
#
Rosco has destroyed any evidence of him being involved with the goat and llama. Pictures will now have to be faked, because no one but Rosco knows where it lives. Other goats may be used as substitues, however a real CoF member will know the difference.


They are simple, and if there is blatant disregard for the rules, you are out. Period. Now, that isn't as possible here, since that forum is about 20 tightly knit people, and this forum supports 423 active members. That is 423 different posters with about 5 or 6 with the power to give warnings or ban.

Maybe there is a reason TNed is considering this other than wanting to make posting here more difficult.

[ApaOps5]

How is it 'more' moderation?

Because its another tool for the Mods to utilize. The premise of this site is a reprieve from the Official Board with too many rules. But mix in a little Freak and a slight dash of OMane and its adult oriented. I think this place is great in that everyone is civil 90% of the time and when they aren't they take a break or are warned. If someone can't handle that they go away and are put on notice.

At some point if you keep adding moderation it stifles the members and chokes people away. Again my .02 cents and I know others don't share my views but I thought I would share.

[ApaOps5]

It could be opt in only.

Here are the forum rules (and I have posted them here before), of a forum I have belonged to for 8 years and is still active:



They are simple, and if there is blatant disregard for the rules, you are out. Period. Now, that isn't as possible here, since that forum is about 20 tightly knit people, and this forum supports 423 active members. That is 423 different posters with about 5 or 6 with the power to give warnings or ban.

Maybe there is a reason TNed is considering this other than wanting to make posting here more difficult.

Those are great points. And I know there has been tension and some in fighting and if people are complaining I know TNed wants to make this place enjoyable for all. So I understand why he is putting this up for discussion.

[Tned]

Because its another tool for the Mods to utilize. The premise of this site is a reprieve from the Official Board with too many rules. But mix in a little Freak and a slight dash of OMane and its adult oriented. I think this place is great in that everyone is civil 90% of the time and when they aren't they take a break or are warned. If someone can't handle that they go away and are put on notice.

At some point if you keep adding moderation it stifles the members and chokes people away. Again my .02 cents and I know others don't share my views but I thought I would share.

Actually, your a bit off. It isn't that everyone is civil 90% of the time, it is more accurate to say 90% of the people are civil 99% of the time, and 10% of the people routinely break the rules and ignore warnings.

This system gives the mods a better tool to deal with and suspend, without screams of mod bias, the 10% that routinely ignore the rules of the forum. The 90% of the people that rarely ever cross the line, will typically not even know that this system is in place.

How is that over-moderation?

Historically, every Town Hall discussion we have had, on subjects such as the current one about loosening the language rules, or moving to less moderation and more of an anything goes message board, the vast majority of members have chimed in and made clear they don't want an "everyone should have thick skin and not get upset when people attack them" forum.

Personally, I don't care. I can live with an anything goes, flame away forum, or a more moderated, treat everyone with respect, check the flame thrower at the door forum.

To date, the majority of members have indicated they want the "check the flame thrower" forum.

However, as time goes by, we revisit subjects, such as when I created the discussion about loosening the language restrictions (circumventing the filter) after Midnight Blue's comments in this thread. As the membership of the message board/community changes, if it is clear that the vast majority want the rules to change, they will change.

I do my best to check my personal opinion of how the board should be run at the door, and do my best to listen to what people say in these Town Hall Discussions, and morph the rules/message board to stay inline with the current wishes of the membership.

[ApaOps5]

Actually, your a bit off. It isn't that everyone is civil 90% of the time, it is more accurate to say 90% of the people are civil 99% of the time, and 10% of the people routinely break the rules and ignore warnings.

This system gives the mods a better tool to deal with and suspend, without screams of mod bias, the 10% that routinely ignore the rules of the forum. The 90% of the people that rarely ever cross the line, will typically not even know that this system is in place.

How is that over-moderation?

Historically, every Town Hall discussion we have had, on subjects such as the current one about loosening the language rules, or moving to less moderation and more of an anything goes message board, the vast majority of members have chimed in and made clear they don't want an "everyone should have thick skin and not get upset when people attack them" forum.

Personally, I don't care. I can live with an anything goes, flame away forum, or a more moderated, treat everyone with respect, check the flame thrower at the door forum.

To date, the majority of members have indicated they want the "check the flame thrower" forum.

However, as time goes by, we revisit subjects, such as when I created the discussion about loosening the language restrictions (circumventing the filter) after Midnight Blue's comments in this thread. As the membership of the message board/community changes, if it is clear that the vast majority want the rules to change, they will change.

I do my best to check my personal opinion of how the board should be run at the door, and do my best to listen to what people say in these Town Hall Discussions, and morph the rules/message board to stay inline with the current wishes of the membership.

Well than that is perfectly fair. I am not sure if you are irked by my opinion as you came across that way. But I thought I would share.

[Tned]

Well than that is perfectly fair. I am not sure if you are irked by my opinion as you came across that way. But I thought I would share.

No, not irked at all. I apologize if it seemed that way. Since you haven't been around for a lot of the rules developments (such as that accepted language/acronym amendment we did to the rules back around the first of the year) that have been setup via the Town Hall Discussions, and the feedback I have received about wanting to keep this place civil, and attack free, I was trying to share some of that history for you and others.

As I said, I honestly am ok with whatever direction this forum takes, as long as it represents the community at large. Early on, one of the things I said is that it will be impossible to please the 10% on either fringe (those that want anything goes, and those that want it to be like a church forum), but the goal is to create and mantain a message board that fits the 80% in the middle as much as is possible.

I was only trying to share some of that history, and what I have heard in our discussions and other feedback up to this point. I certainly didn't mean to come across as not appreciating your input, because I do. It's critical that EVERYONE gives their input on all these discussions, or we can't continue to make sure we are running the message board in a way that meets the desire of that middle 80%.

[ApaOps5]

No problem I think I was being defensive as I share more of the 10% view in this case. Not all cases. But Jrwiz explained it further to me in a PM and truthfully I think this would be a good idea in that it helps the mods do their job more efficiently.

[Tned]

No problem I think I was being defensive as I share more of the 10% view in this case. Not all cases. But Jrwiz explained it further to me in a PM and truthfully I think this would be a good idea in that it helps the mods do their job more efficiently.

If it helped you better understand it, maybe Jr should share it with the rest. It's important for everyone to fully understand what is being proposed, so they can voice whether they are for it or against it, or have other suggestions for us to follow.

[ApaOps5]

If it helped you better understand it, maybe Jr should share it with the rest. It's important for everyone to fully understand what is being proposed, so they can voice whether they are for it or against it, or have other suggestions for us to follow.

I think it would help others understand. I won't post what he said since it was in a PM but I agree he would really put it in a whole new light.

[MOtorboat]

I really like the proposed system from Tned.

There have been numerous times, where I did not know where I stood. If I deserved a ban in the mods eyes, if I deserve an infraction in the mods eyes. Maybe it's just me, but this proposed system puts a black and white idea of where I stand, what I've done wrong, and when I'm out of line.

JMHO.

I don't think its over moderation at all, in fact I think its perfect for our mods (outstanding, btw) to have more time on their hands.

On a personal note, I'd like to apologize to Dread for ruining his Sunday morning.

[Lonestar]

If it helped you better understand it, maybe Jr should share it with the rest. It's important for everyone to fully understand what is being proposed, so they can voice whether they are for it or against it, or have other suggestions for us to follow.


I have not wanted to talk about it in particular as a mod so I would not sway anyones votes or Ideas here.. I was under the impression that was how it should be..

But since you asked..

It really doe not change how we mod.. just score keep..

If someone was getting a PM from us before because they broke a rule they still do..

With the IP program as I understand it there is no mod bias on who get banned or not banned..

If someone breaks a rule they get corresponding points they they would have gotten for violating the rule.. when they get to many they have a loss of privileges.. whatever is to be determined.. either a loss of SIG size, or P&R privileges or an outright vacation.. with each PM there is a IP that is viewable in the user CP are giving points values and expiration times..

So someone getting close knows when they are in BIG DODO.. If they et stupid again they are gone..

NO MORE, no less.

As mods we do nothing more than we do today.. edit and PM. the same rules we have today or whatever they morph into in the future..

We are no longer part of the jury or prosecution team trying to justify getting someone banned.. just writing tickets so to speak, like we were before, just now they have a point value...

[MOtorboat]

I have not wanted to talk about it in particular as a mod so I would not sway anyones votes or Ideas here.. I was under the impression that was how it should be..

But since you asked..

It really doe not change how we mod.. just score keep..

If someone was getting a PM from us before because they broke a rule they still do..

With the IP program as I understand it there is no mod bias on who get banned or not banned..

If someone breaks a rule they get corresponding points they they would have gotten for violating the rule.. when they get to many they have a loss of privileges.. whatever is to be determined.. either a loss of SIG size, or P&R privileges or an outright vacation.. with each PM there is a IP that is viewable in the user CP are giving points values and expiration times..

So someone getting close knows when they are in BIG DODO.. If they et stupid again they are gone..

NO MORE, no less.

As mods we do nothing more than we do today.. edit and PM. the same rules we have today or whatever they morph into in the future..

We are no longer part of the jury or prosecution team trying to justify getting someone banned.. just writing tickets so to speak, like we were before, just now they have a point value...

My understanding is that there is still some subjectiveness to it. I respect everything you guys do, even if I go "uppity midget" on you every now and then...I just think that this would give us an idea of where we are, as posters. This gives us a clear cut idea of where we stand. I know some of my violations have been worse than others, and yet there were several times when I felt that I was more in for a ban/suspension from a lesser violation. I think that would clear that confusion up, imho.

[OB]

My understanding is that there is still some subjectiveness to it. I respect everything you guys do, even if I go "uppity midget" on you every now and then...I just think that this would give us an idea of where we are, as posters. This gives us a clear cut idea of where we stand. I know some of my violations have been worse than others, and yet there were several times when I felt that I was more in for a ban/suspension from a lesser violation. I think that would clear that confusion up, imho.

no one could have said it better :lol: ;)

[KCL]

no one could have said it better :lol: ;)

Mo gets like that?

[Tned]

Mo gets like that?

I'm going to add a "Calling someone a midget" infraction, since MO is like 2" taller than me :mad:

[KCL]

I'm going to add a "Calling someone a midget" infraction, since MO is like 2" taller than me :mad:

Midget Tned....:confused:
No way!

[MOtorboat]

Mo gets like that?

I have my moments.

*puts hand in shirt like Napoleon, and stares seductively at camera, with a provocative wink*

[KCL]

I have my moments.

*puts hand in shirt like Napoleon, and stares seductively at camera, with a provocative wink*

Stop it Mo....You're giving me nightmares and I am still awake...:shocked:

[MOtorboat]

Stop it Mo....You're giving me nightmares and I am still awake...:shocked:

Nightmares...*sulks and walks away*

[slim]

I'm going to add a "Calling someone a midget" infraction, since MO is like 2" taller than me :mad:

Oh Lord, you should not have said that...may God have mercy on your soul.

[KCL]

Nightmares...*sulks and walks away*

Sorry Mo...being hateful to me just doesn't cut it...IP for being hateful...:tsk:

[dogfish]

Well I think this is making Broncos Forums one step closer to Kiddie Mania. Something most everyone who posts here doesn't like. I just don't think this place has run amok and warrant even more moderation.

IMO, it's really just providing more structure to the moderation that's already going on, as opposed to adding more. . .





This system gives the mods a better tool to deal with and suspend, without screams of mod bias, the 10% that routinely ignore the rules of the forum.



just my two cents, but i don't believe for a second that it will prevent such accusations. . . the people who are mature enough to handle a ban will do so regardless of whether it's IP based or not-- and those who aren't (the majority), will complain either way. . . it's ultimately at a mod's discretion to give IPs or not-- there IS no way to obtain complete objectivity without removing the human element entirely, something you just can't do. . . people who get banned or reprimanded are likely to claim bias no matter what steps you take to prevent it. . . it's just human nature. . .

as far as i'm concerned, the smart approach is to do the best you can to put a system in place that's as fair as possible, do your best to have level-headed mods and keep an eye on them, and don't worry about it beyond that. . . let things take their course, and if one or two losers that can't control themselves or follow the rules get the axe, it's no big loss to the community, even if they want to go bitch about it on another forum. . . just because they want to scream "unfair!" and blame their problems on everyone but themselves, doesn't actually make it so. . . if you think the IP system is the fairest one available, then go with it. . .



Mo gets like that?

frequently. . . . :laugh:

[sneakers]

How about a warning before you start handing out 14 day suspentions....I don't think I could make it through one work shift, let alone two weeks without BF.com...and some of the stuff I have posted could be seen as innapropriate if you don't share my weird sense of humor.

[Tned]

How about a warning before you start handing out 14 day suspentions....I don't think I could make it through one work shift, let alone two weeks without BF.com...and some of the stuff I have posted could be seen as innapropriate if you don't share my weird sense of humor.

While I was in charge of banning, the whole time until just recently, I routinely gave two, three, four or five warnings that a poster was on the verge of being suspended.

The IP system won't change that. Except for spamming, or possibly some 'extremely severe' offenses, that would result in an immediate, without warning ban now, the infraction points system will let people know exactly where they stand. So, a person that likes to straddle the line in terms of the rules, will be able to look at their User CP and know how close they are to being suspended and "how long" they have to actually follow the rules to the T, before an infraction will expire and they will be back to zero.

My personal opinion is that whether it is done manual (which is very subjective) or via something like the infraction points system (which is far more objective, even if not 100% so), it is important that posters know where they stand and what behavior won't be tolerated.



just my two cents, but i don't believe for a second that it will prevent such accusations. . . the people who are mature enough to handle a ban will do so regardless of whether it's IP based or not-- and those who aren't (the majority), will complain either way. . . it's ultimately at a mod's discretion to give IPs or not-- there IS no way to obtain complete objectivity without removing the human element entirely, something you just can't do. . . people who get banned or reprimanded are likely to claim bias no matter what steps you take to prevent it. . . it's just human nature. . .


You're right, it won't be 100% objective, because of the human element, but it will be far less subjective.

In addition to the 'system', we also need a 'mindset' to go along with it. We need the members of this community and the moderators to 'buy in' to the concept.

Right now, it is very easy for the mods to mentally classify posters as 'trouble makers' or 'clean' (my quick choice of words, while only haven been awake for 20 minutes). Meaning, that they see posters that most of the time follow the rules, and then in the rare exception, get caught up in the heat of the moment, and crosses the line. Then you have have the fore mentioned 'trouble makers', and these are people that routinely cross the line, sometimes just sticking a toe over, other times jumping across it and thumbing their nose and the mods and message board in the process.

Human nature, tends to lend itself to taking it easy, PM'ng far less stern warnings, or just editing a post without comment, when it is the 'clean' poster, the one that except in the rare case of being 'caught in the moment', doesn't break the forum rules. Where the 'trouble maker' tends to not get the benefit of the doubt, because their posting history has indicated that the poster has routinely crossed the line, so giving them a 'break' will just encourage the rules violations.

But the reality is that most posters can't really be pigeon holed into these two narrow categories, but are in a spectrum from really bad to really good.

One question I have, and have posed to the mods on occasion, is when does a 'good poster' become a 'trouble maker'? What about a 'trouble maker' becoming a 'good poster'?

In our current highly subjective model, it is VERY hard for people to move from one category to the other, because it is only natural that we form our judgements from early actions by posters and then become locked in to them. So it is VERY hard for a 'trouble maker' to ever move to 'clean' status, and a 'clean' or 'good' poster has to nearly incite WWIII multiple times before their status begins to change.

Again, this is just human nature, not a flaw with the mods, or myself.

So, I know I am long-winded, but bringing it back to the main point, if you have lasted this long.

This is why it requires 'buy in' from everyone. If the infraction system is allowed to do its job, then every time a rule is violated, no matter 'who' the poster is, whether a 'trouble maker' or 'clean/good' poster, they will receive an infraction points notice and have points assigned. The difference is that a 'good' poster that only crosses the line when caught up in the heat of the moment, will get one now and then, and the 'accumulation' of points will never be a factor.

On the other hand, the much smaller group of posters that routinely break the rules, will quickly have points accumulate and they will lose forum privileges. The ball will be in their court, as to whether they start obeying the rules, or constantly endure forum bans.

However, going back to the 'buy in'. In order for this system to move from a less 'subjective' system, to a nearly 'objective' system, all posters and the moderators need to understand that it isn't a personal insult to get an infraction, but simply a statement of fact -- A Rule Was Broken. End of story. It isn't a personal dispersion, just a statement of fact.

If everyone can understand that an infraction isn't personal, and that while people will have the option of appealing an infraction and the potential for it to be removed, if their was a misunderstanding (such as a joke, that the mods didn't realize, like the infamous froggie situations on Mania), that beyond those appeals, that we don't scream whenever we get an infraction, then the mods can mod, without worrying about offending or running off "good posters" and then we can truly let every posters OWN actions determine their status on the message board.

This gives a 'trouble maker' the opportunity to become a model citizen, and it recognizes that sometimes 'good' posters go bad, or said another way, sometimes 'good' posters, start routinely behaving in a bad way, and they should be punished for that, just as much as the 'trouble makers'.

Sorry for the VERY long-winded post, but if you made it this far, I want to reiterate the importance of 'buy in' from both mods and forum members. If we have that, and we don't take infractions personal, then it is VERY possible to remove almost all subjectivity from the system.

[claymore]

All this talk scares me.

[Tned]

All this talk scares me.

Does lots of talk scare you, or the subject of the talk?

[MOtorboat]

Does lots of talk scare you, or the subject of the talk?

No, Clay just doesn't like reading more than one paragraph at time. It makes his head hurt.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Can one get IP's for posting off topic?

[OB]

Can one get IP's for posting off topic?

No cause then we wouldnt have a board left - silly :marchmellow:

[Dreadnought]

No cause then we wouldnt have a board left - silly :marchmellow:

LMAO! Well, there are a variety of kinds of "off topic" posts too. There are plenty of perfectly innocent and often damned funny one liners etc. Then there are hostile attempts to derail a thread, for whatever reason. These are entirely different animals; I would think it worth an IP if a Mod has directed posters to bet Back to Topic during a thread and that directive is ignored

[claymore]

No cause then we wouldnt have a board left - silly :marchmellow:

That could never happen.

[KCL]

All this talk scares me.

I will comfort you!

[KCL]

No cause then we wouldnt have a board left - silly :marchmellow:

On Mania I got an IP for posting off topic.Myself and one of the mods
(JWinn) was joking around and another mod gave me an IP for being
off topic...:rolleyes:

[Dreadnought]

On Mania I got an IP for posting off topic.Myself and one of the mods
(JWinn) was joking around and another mod gave me an IP for being
off topic...:rolleyes:

You got nailed for an off topic post?! For real?! :laugh:

[LRtagger]

Interesting alternative.

I see potential problems with high fiving increasing a user rating for two reasons:

1. It is suspiciously similar to a CP system which many from the Mania a vehemently opposed to. Personally, I don't care except for....

2. Clique problems. Theoretically, if I get banned (or close to it), I could probably get enough people to go through and high-five enough of my posts to get reinstated (or move into safer territory). The same probably isn't true for all other members. That would lead to unequal application of the rules, which is the whole thing we're trying to avoid.

But the overall percentage rating is a different means to the same ends. Gives us something a little different to think about.


I agree. Essentially what they did (and I didn't elaborate on) was place limitations on positive feedback or "hi-fives". Their system was more similar to our "Salute" than to our "hi-five" system.

You can hand out as many "salutes" as you wanted, but they created rules that would limit your ability to purposefully accumulate positive rep.

For instance: You could get someone to hi-five 200 of your posts in a day...but only one per day would actually have an impact on your user rating. Also, hi-fived posts only have an impact on your user rating in serious forums. They would have no effect in forums such as The Lounge or P&R.

It is probably more trouble than it's worth, but I wanted to throw it out there since it seems to be an effective way of controlling the forum (which currently has 423,000 members)

Here is what I pulled directly from their user rating FAQ:


Forum user rating system

This is a guide to help you understand how the ratings system works and what it means. I would like to start off by saying that the ratings system is merely a way to help the moderators and administrators of this website track users who have consistently caused problems. It is not a feedback rating given by users for transactions in the classifieds. If a user has a sub-100% user rating, it does not mean that they are not a trustworthy buyer/seller. However, the same goes for someone with a 100% user rating.
Violations of the Forum Rules will cause you to lose ratings points. There are three ways to lose ratings points:

Post Deletion: Rating Subtraction Value: 5 percentage points
Post Modification: Rating Subtract Value: 2 percentage points
Thread Modification: Rating Subtract Value: 10 percentage points

You will know when you have lost ratings points as a moderator will send an Instant Message stating how many points you lost, what your remaining percentage is, and why you lost the points. There is no way to earn back ratings points, so be careful. In extreme cases where your user rating falls too low, a ban may be placed on the account.

Quote, originally posted by Example IM »

(12:00 PM 1-11-2007) Stephen@VWvortex:
Post Edit Notification

Your post in thread I can follow the forum rules has been edited.
You have lost 2 rating point(s); Your new user rating is 98%.

Comment: Your post has been edited for violating the user agreement.




If you feel you should not have lost points for whatever reason, please politely contact a forum administrator and they will take it from there.

Thank you.



Obviously since our forum is a little smaller, we can implement more defined penalties (such as racial slurs, language filter, etc) which would make the system more fair.

[dogfish]

All this talk scares me.

it should-- you're the first one getting banned. . . .

i think top has a hostile eye on you right now. . . :laugh:




You got nailed for an off topic post?! For real?! :laugh:


dread, KCL is the QUEEN of off-topic posting! didn't you know?

[KCL]

You got nailed for an off topic post?! For real?! :laugh:

Yes for real and the mod was off topic as well.
I know it's hard to believe I would ever post off topic....:angel:

[KCL]

it should-- you're the first one getting banned. . . .

i think top has a hostile eye on you right now. . . :laugh:






dread, KCL is the QUEEN of off-topic posting! didn't you know?

:mad:

[RunYouOver]

Go for it tned....it's something that just needs to be implemented in my opinion.

[omac]

I'm down with an implementation of an IP system. It sounds like it will make all the mods and Tned's life much easier and since they volunteer their time (and money), I see no reason why this shouldn't be done.

Yeah, I agree.

Also, if someone's too much of a troll (and not in the fun way :D ), you can always put him on your ignore list. I never used to use that before, but in extreme circumstances, I've found it can do wonders. :cool:

[Northman]

Yeah, I agree.

Also, if someone's too much of a troll (and not in the fun way :D ), you can always put him on your ignore list. I never used to use that before, but in extreme circumstances, I've found it can do wonders. :cool:


Amazing how that works right? :lol:

[Davii]

This message is hidden because Anubis is on your ignore list.

:laugh:

Just testing the system. :D

[Hawgdriver]

I have made all ban decisions, and I take making those decisions very serious...I need to cease to have such a hands on involvement, and want to move more into a role where I can actually start posting again

I hate to say it, but what you want is just not possible. You are the force behind everything that is Broncos Forums and if you want it to continue in this way I don't see how you can step back. The problem is, you can't make enough money from this to motivate you in that fashion, and the joys of creation and management are starting to pale. You have created a wonderful site, but to keep it this way will most likely require you bring someone else into a partnership arrangement or accept a different vision than the one you might have for the future of BF. Everyone that is here is here because of the vision that you have for fan-based Broncos forums, so you are likely to find several candidates for that partnership role.

The sniping at the other site (I honestly can't remember the name, but it's the one that turned into Broncos Country or whatever has ads all over town now...blech) seemed related to the third-party nature of who was deciding IPs. This will be divisive and I wouldn't recommend you enlist mods to enforce this. Your even hand has been the best solution. If you delegate this and try to conduct discipline as in the past you'll run into these problems. I don't think you can delegate what you want to delegate.

Your goal is to have a system that can run itself. This is what I suggest.

Hold an election, open to all BF members, for a city council. This could be 11 persons or so.

Implement a "low-five" or mild rebuke button. "low-five" might not be a good name.

Design a auto-report feature that brings a member to the attention of the 'city council' when the amount of "low-fives" hits a certain threshold (like more low-fives overall than hi-fives, or X low fives w/o a hi-five, etc.) The post in question would be reported and the councilperson can vote ban/no-ban. Those councilmen and women must vote on whether or not to ban the member in question, within a day or two, with a quorum of 2/3rds or something. After the member is banned, they are banned for life (however the IP identification works, etc.), end of discussion. We don't have time to take baby steps to accomplish what we want, we need bold decisive action now.

You probably would also want to keep veto power, because, Tned, you're the mayor.

So I see two options, bring a partner into the fold, or create a council.

[broncogirl7]

I think it would be a great idea.

[OMorange&blue]

:puke:

[Tned]

I hate to say it, but what you want is just not possible. You are the force behind everything that is Broncos Forums and if you want it to continue in this way I don't see how you can step back. The problem is, you can't make enough money from this to motivate you in that fashion, and the joys of creation and management are starting to pale. You have created a wonderful site, but to keep it this way will most likely require you bring someone else into a partnership arrangement or accept a different vision than the one you might have for the future of BF. Everyone that is here is here because of the vision that you have for fan-based Broncos forums, so you are likely to find several candidates for that partnership role.

The sniping at the other site (I honestly can't remember the name, but it's the one that turned into Broncos Country or whatever has ads all over town now...blech) seemed related to the third-party nature of who was deciding IPs. This will be divisive and I wouldn't recommend you enlist mods to enforce this. Your even hand has been the best solution. If you delegate this and try to conduct discipline as in the past you'll run into these problems. I don't think you can delegate what you want to delegate.

Your goal is to have a system that can run itself. This is what I suggest.

Hold an election, open to all BF members, for a city council. This could be 11 persons or so.

Implement a "low-five" or mild rebuke button. "low-five" might not be a good name.

Design a auto-report feature that brings a member to the attention of the 'city council' when the amount of "low-fives" hits a certain threshold (like more low-fives overall than hi-fives, or X low fives w/o a hi-five, etc.) The post in question would be reported and the councilperson can vote ban/no-ban. Those councilmen and women must vote on whether or not to ban the member in question, within a day or two, with a quorum of 2/3rds or something. After the member is banned, they are banned for life (however the IP identification works, etc.), end of discussion. We don't have time to take baby steps to accomplish what we want, we need bold decisive action now.

You probably would also want to keep veto power, because, Tned, you're the mayor.

So I see two options, bring a partner into the fold, or create a council.

Hawg,

Thanks for the detailed input.

I will admit that I have thought about the 'council' concept a lot since I disbanded the advisory board. At some point, I would really like to get some form of representative group to speak for the board on certain issues, such as appeals for instance. There are some issues with that approach, however.

As to the stepping back. Just to be clear on that. It isn't like I plan to walk away. Instead, what I hope to do is focus more time on posting, but beyond that continue to manage/admin the message board overall, which includes steering the direction of the message board via these town hall discussions. In addition, I will still maintain an oversite role over the moderation. Our moderators do an excellent job, but that doesn't mean that in rare cases a rules interpretation might not be in line with the spirit of the rule, or there might be extenuating circumstances, etc. Various situations where an appeal could be in order.

Currently, as you can probably tell, I make zero money from this site (kind of hard to make money without any ads), and the monthly cost isn't insignificant. At some point I may need to start recouping some of my expenses, which could mean minimal ads or donations or subscriptions that will give 'extra' features (not sure what that would actually be, but essentially a donation that gives the person that donated something). However, that isn't a bridge I have to cross yet.

Also, it's important to understand that two of the reasons for proposing this change, beyond the fact that I would like to get out of the role of issuing suspensions/bans are:

First, in various Town Hall discussions, and through other feedback there seems to be a fairly good consensus, or at least a significant percentage of our regular members that feel I have been too lenient in handing out bans, and have let some people get away with far too much, and I have given out too many "2nd" chances.

Second, if implemented correctly, with proper buy in from mods and members, then this should help with some of the 'perception' of mod bias, or potential mod bias, because it takes out of the mods hands, and my hands, having to make a decision of "has this person done enough to be banned" and instead creates a system where every rules violation gets an infraction, but only the people that 'constantly' violate the rules have any punitive action applied to their account.

Anyway, I don't want to spend less time on the forum, but instead spend more time working to make it a better forum, overseeing the moderation, town hall discussions and starting to post regularly again, and less time dealing with PM's warning members that keep violating rules, but rarely backing up the warnings with suspensions, which means I am back to warning them again in short order.

[NameUsedBefore]

Very bad idea, IMO.

[Hawgdriver]

Thanks for taking the time to listen to my thoughts, Tned. You do a great job of making each of us feel respected and welcome to your site. It's rare to find such a genuine soul in the online cosmos.

I haven't waded into the bias threads a la Buff, but I can imagine the issue involved perceived ideological fraternization among mods and members. I think you have a few choices. One of them is sticking with your decision to trust and empower the mods you have chosen. Let disgruntled members pound sand. Rely on public/member/ or 'council' polls when it's too contentious and it's a judgment call whether the mod was biased or not. Your site, your mods--be arbitrary and don't give a damn what the proletariat think. When a member smart-talks or gets cute, humiliate them. Tned (& *very* carefully selected mods) RULES. That's option 1.

Another option is to come up with a list of rules and take the guesswork out of enforcement by expanding the detail of the rules, using precedent, etc, much like the American legal/legislative system. Dude, that is a path of sorrow if you ask me. It would take way too much time, result in litigious members, and require constant explanation and constant upkeep down the road. This sounds kind of like the gist of the IP system, although I imagine you could make one that would work more efficiently than I'm envisioning.

The thing is, I don't see a dictatorship on the horizon because I know you are striving for fairness. However, it might save you pains in the long run, and allow you to spend your time forming content more to your desire. On the other hand, an IP system could be the easiest way to codify and enforce proper conduct, and insulate the site from claims of ideological/mod bias--if that is a key philosophical component of your vision for Broncos Forums.

I think you might be best served by leaning toward option 1. Additionally, if there is a way to enfranchise the guys in camp 'Buff' and every other meaningful camp--in a systematic, automatic, methodical way--then let's see it. I don't really see it in the IP system as described. Plus I think it's going to be too burdensome in the long run, and result in a litigious membership.

I think we need some kind of autocratic council that can take on the harsh--but reasoned--arbitration that you currently do. If it had members from all walks of BroncoForumDom that would probably make it a success, if you made their duties clear and removed them when they show lack of attention to their duty. Vote for me on the elitist ballot.

[Hawgdriver]

Our moderators do an excellent job...
Honestly, I can't tell because when they do a good job it's invisible, which means they must be doing a great job.


Currently, as you can probably tell, I make zero money from this site (kind of hard to make money without any ads), and the monthly cost isn't insignificant. At some point I may need to start recouping some of my expenses, which could mean minimal ads or donations or subscriptions that will give 'extra' features (not sure what that would actually be, but essentially a donation that gives the person that donated something). However, that isn't a bridge I have to cross yet.
I think of the USSM model often when considering a site like this. They are clearly different, but share some similarities. I know that USSM will occasionally do the 'buy the author a refreshing beer' 3 dollar donation to help with server costs, etc. But the discussion topics are limited to only those created by the site authors; at BF anyone can create a topic. You can't use the same rules. But I like that site so much because they don't tolerate any crap from members in their comments. It's freaking fascist and I love it--the quality of content is without rival. Everyone is challenged to come up with something wittier or more thought provoking in shorter sentences.

I know the USSM model doesn't fit here, but I think you want to go in a direction that is roughly comparable. Perhaps there is a way to incorporate a donation system without being too intrusive.

If you get too far away from free you'll lose everyone. I know that Derek and Dave have been toying around with BlogAds and other semi-cool forms of rebel advertising. You can kinda understand it's a necessary evil to make some money on these things. They recently added an AdSense block at R2.

This issue seems in many ways a microcosm of democracy, and it's fascinating.

[frenchfan]

I'm with you on this one. I think self censorship actually shows a bit more thought than straight up typing the word with no regard, and then getting it all *********!


I'd like to thank Tned for giving us the opportunity to discuss this as it wasn't don't on the Mania. I think the way it was handled on Mania, and as Anubis said, on top of the colour change, was incredibly rude, and way beyond authoritarian. So thanks again Tned for giving us the chance to give input. I do think that the mods, and you have had to work too hard to police certain people, and if this is the best way to give yourselfs a bit of a break, then so be it.


I was one of the first people given an IP, for calling Frenchy a frog, which I had done from the first time we had a chat, and he even called himself a frog. It was called a racist attack, and even Frenchy complaining about it did no good. Hahahaha, me calling Frenchy a frog is a term of affection!
Anyways, given that I have been abused by people on the Mania for not being american, and not spelling words the American way, I thought the IP was stupid, and I let my feelings be known.Yeah...

Kappie... I'll be your frog anytime you want ;) :D

IMO, the problem is not always what is written, but the context...
Kappie gave a great example of that. It didn't bother me that she called me froggie... Some jokes didn't bother me as well (ie. white flag and so on)... as far as they were jokes...

Tned (and mods) : I know it's not easy to deal with all of that... I don't know what to say to help you...
I think people should understand the chance you gave us to provide this boards... IMO, it's up to all of us to keep it the right way... I feel sad that some poeple can't understand that...

The question is not to agree with everyone or to like everyone... No... You can disagree and you can't like some others posters...

The real problem is RESPECT... and also trying to not be too emotional...
I had some talks with some of my Europeans fellows and we were wondering why Americans were so emotional about politics and religion (though I admit it's not always easy debates)?

Last, I think when you give the same kind of answer to a post (I mean, BS vs BS), then you give credit to the other poster or at least you discredit yourself... Be smarter : disagree and argue... If the other one can't catch up with that, then ignore and stop the discussion : it is useless... and if you can stay on the smart level and give a non emotional answer, then it is the other one who will look like an idiot, not you ;)

Well... I try to apply this one (I know, I failed sometimes :D), but that the best way to keep free speech and less troubles...

Sorry Tned that I can't help you more on that topic...

[Tned]

Very bad idea, IMO.

Nub, would you mind elaborating? It would be good to hear specific concerns that anyone has about the system.

[HolyDiver]

Nub, would you mind elaborating? It would be good to hear specific concerns that anyone has about the system.

I think all former Freaks should get their infraction points cut in half...........So, while everyone else would get 1 infraction point, a former Freak would get 1/2............Just a suggestion.

[CoachChaz]

No matter how hard you try, there will always be a core of members here. Yes, you'll get a new regular from time to time, but for the most part there is already a "family" in place. Just like a family, the core has a mild tiff with one another here and there, but 99% of the time, everyone gets along.

That being said, the core have a propensity to get to know one another and I think it's fair to say that the core isnt easily offended. Vulgar language, explicit conversation and dirty pictures really dont offend the bread and butter of this site.

Therefore, if you want a community that reflects the people in it, I think you're going the wrong direction. When 99% of your members use the word f u c k on a regular basis in life, what sense does it make to infract or ban them for saying it amongst one another? Because 1 person that rarely ever adds anything to the community complains about it? Doesnt make much sense to me.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the powers that be and the current regime of "good old boys" will obviously have the final say. I dont think anyone here feels like they absolutely HAVE to have a forum where they can say and do anything they please, but implementing a system that tightens the vice on people and situations that currently arent a problem to begin with seems a bit unnecessary.

If I say something I shouldnt in a thread where it's not allowed, then a mod will delete the post and explain why. That is much prefereable to me than someone saying, "You can't say that...that's 2 points for you". You're suggesting taking the human element out of a situation that involves people and that rarely works out well.

[Northman]

No matter how hard you try, there will always be a core of members here. Yes, you'll get a new regular from time to time, but for the most part there is already a "family" in place. Just like a family, the core has a mild tiff with one another here and there, but 99% of the time, everyone gets along.

That being said, the core have a propensity to get to know one another and I think it's fair to say that the core isnt easily offended. Vulgar language, explicit conversation and dirty pictures really dont offend the bread and butter of this site.

Therefore, if you want a community that reflects the people in it, I think you're going the wrong direction. When 99% of your members use the word f u c k on a regular basis in life, what sense does it make to infract or ban them for saying it amongst one another? Because 1 person that rarely ever adds anything to the community complains about it? Doesnt make much sense to me.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the powers that be and the current regime of "good old boys" will obviously have the final say. I dont think anyone here feels like they absolutely HAVE to have a forum where they can say and do anything they please, but implementing a system that tightens the vice on people and situations that currently arent a problem to begin with seems a bit unnecessary.

If I say something I shouldnt in a thread where it's not allowed, then a mod will delete the post and explain why. That is much prefereable to me than someone saying, "You can't say that...that's 2 points for you". You're suggesting taking the human element out of a situation that involves people and that rarely works out well.


Those are some good points you bring up. But i do have to ask, since ive been reading over this thread most people who have spoken up in it seem to be in favor of the new system. Would that be the core group or family you speak of? If most of the board wants the system wouldnt it be wise to try and please the majority of the board instead of the minority as you have put it?

[CoachChaz]

Those are some good points you bring up. But i do have to ask, since ive been reading over this thread most people who have spoken up in it seem to be in favor of the new system. Would that be the core group or family you speak of? If most of the board wants the system wouldnt it be wise to try and please the majority of the board instead of the minority as you have put it?

I think it comes down to most people not really caring one way or another than it does to them vehemently supporting it. In all honesty, I know I could care less one way or another, but I thought I'd play Devil's Advocate and look at it from the rebellious side.

The proposed systm probably wouldnt affect any of our core members as it's stated, so the real question is...why bother? If all it's going to do is weed out the obvious problems (something that is already done adequately) then why bother adding work to it?

Like I said, it takes the humanity completely out of it. No longer can you discuss an issue with a Mod, because most of them are so jaded on the "black and white" of things that no matter what you say, the response will simply be something like, "Sorry...that's the rule". Personally, I thought we were all better than that, but like I said...regardless of what is decided, I could care less. Just like most anyone else.

[claymore]

No matter how hard you try, there will always be a core of members here. Yes, you'll get a new regular from time to time, but for the most part there is already a "family" in place. Just like a family, the core has a mild tiff with one another here and there, but 99% of the time, everyone gets along.

That being said, the core have a propensity to get to know one another and I think it's fair to say that the core isnt easily offended. Vulgar language, explicit conversation and dirty pictures really dont offend the bread and butter of this site.

Therefore, if you want a community that reflects the people in it, I think you're going the wrong direction. When 99% of your members use the word f u c k on a regular basis in life, what sense does it make to infract or ban them for saying it amongst one another? Because 1 person that rarely ever adds anything to the community complains about it? Doesnt make much sense to me.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the powers that be and the current regime of "good old boys" will obviously have the final say. I dont think anyone here feels like they absolutely HAVE to have a forum where they can say and do anything they please, but implementing a system that tightens the vice on people and situations that currently arent a problem to begin with seems a bit unnecessary.

If I say something I shouldnt in a thread where it's not allowed, then a mod will delete the post and explain why. That is much prefereable to me than someone saying, "You can't say that...that's 2 points for you". You're suggesting taking the human element out of a situation that involves people and that rarely works out well.

Great post.

[Northman]

I think it comes down to most people not really caring one way or another than it does to them vehemently supporting it. In all honesty, I know I could care less one way or another, but I thought I'd play Devil's Advocate and look at it from the rebellious side.

The proposed systm probably wouldnt affect any of our core members as it's stated, so the real question is...why bother? If all it's going to do is weed out the obvious problems (something that is already done adequately) then why bother adding work to it?

Like I said, it takes the humanity completely out of it. No longer can you discuss an issue with a Mod, because most of them are so jaded on the "black and white" of things that no matter what you say, the response will simply be something like, "Sorry...that's the rule". Personally, I thought we were all better than that, but like I said...regardless of what is decided, I could care less. Just like most anyone else.

Fair enough.

[CoachChaz]

Great post.

Means nothing if no one else cares though

[Thnikkaman]

Means nothing if no one else cares though

I can totally see your side of this. And I can agree with it as long as TNed feels that this forum is still worth maintaining.

[NightTrainLayne]

No matter how hard you try, there will always be a core of members here. Yes, you'll get a new regular from time to time, but for the most part there is already a "family" in place. Just like a family, the core has a mild tiff with one another here and there, but 99% of the time, everyone gets along.

That being said, the core have a propensity to get to know one another and I think it's fair to say that the core isnt easily offended. Vulgar language, explicit conversation and dirty pictures really dont offend the bread and butter of this site.

Therefore, if you want a community that reflects the people in it, I think you're going the wrong direction. When 99% of your members use the word f u c k on a regular basis in life, what sense does it make to infract or ban them for saying it amongst one another? Because 1 person that rarely ever adds anything to the community complains about it? Doesnt make much sense to me.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the powers that be and the current regime of "good old boys" will obviously have the final say. I dont think anyone here feels like they absolutely HAVE to have a forum where they can say and do anything they please, but implementing a system that tightens the vice on people and situations that currently arent a problem to begin with seems a bit unnecessary.

If I say something I shouldnt in a thread where it's not allowed, then a mod will delete the post and explain why. That is much prefereable to me than someone saying, "You can't say that...that's 2 points for you". You're suggesting taking the human element out of a situation that involves people and that rarely works out well.

Coach, as I see it, this is not a method to "tighten the vice", but instead to keep track of those who are consistent problems, and also to let those consisten problems know that they are a problem, thus helping the mods to get rid of the problems without a lot of hand-wringing about coming down hard on someone for a minimal infraction, or getting accused of taking it easy on one poster who does the same thing as another that gets banned.

It is great that if we do something wrong now the mods just clean it up for us and we move on for the most part, but they are not our Mommies. They get tired of always "picking up" after us, and especially tired to cleaning up the same messes from the same people (I'm not directing this at Coach).

This system will quickly identify for the administration those who are making the messes so to speak, and notify the trouble-makers as well that they are using up their 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and umteenth chances before the hammer gets dropped on them.

To me, this looks like it's the same rules, and same freedoms, just those who consistently take their membership for granted and abuse the freedoms here will have a limited opportunity to continue to do those things over a period of time.

[HolyDiver]

Coach, as I see it, this is not a method to "tighten the vice", but instead to keep track of those who are consistent problems, and also to let those consisten problems know that they are a problem, thus helping the mods to get rid of the problems without a lot of hand-wringing about coming down hard on someone for a minimal infraction, or getting accused of taking it easy on one poster who does the same thing as another that gets banned.

It is great that if we do something wrong now the mods just clean it up for us and we move on for the most part, but they are not our Mommies. They get tired of always "picking up" after us, and especially tired to cleaning up the same messes from the same people (I'm not directing this at Coach).

This system will quickly identify for the administration those who are making the messes so to speak, and notify the trouble-makers as well that they are using up their 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and umteenth chances before the hammer gets dropped on them.

To me, this looks like it's the same rules, and same freedoms, just those who consistently take their membership for granted and abuse the freedoms here will have a limited opportunity to continue to do those things over a period of time.

I personally feel you should be given 1/2 of an infraction point for that rambling............now my eyes hurt and I'm very sleepy.

[NightTrainLayne]

I personally feel you should be given 1/2 of an infraction point for that rambling............now my eyes hurt and I'm very sleepy.

See. A couple more of those 1/2 point infractions and I'll have to quit those rambling posts.

[CoachChaz]

Coach, as I see it, this is not a method to "tighten the vice", but instead to keep track of those who are consistent problems, and also to let those consisten problems know that they are a problem, thus helping the mods to get rid of the problems without a lot of hand-wringing about coming down hard on someone for a minimal infraction, or getting accused of taking it easy on one poster who does the same thing as another that gets banned.

It is great that if we do something wrong now the mods just clean it up for us and we move on for the most part, but they are not our Mommies. They get tired of always "picking up" after us, and especially tired to cleaning up the same messes from the same people (I'm not directing this at Coach).

This system will quickly identify for the administration those who are making the messes so to speak, and notify the trouble-makers as well that they are using up their 2nd and 3rd and 4th, and umteenth chances before the hammer gets dropped on them.

To me, this looks like it's the same rules, and same freedoms, just those who consistently take their membership for granted and abuse the freedoms here will have a limited opportunity to continue to do those things over a period of time.

And what will a point system do to help this? The point I'm trying to make is that if a rule or a point is issued to one person, then it has to be issued to all. Everything is black and white when you eliminate the understanding of the humanity and personality involved.

If I tell you to "F off" in a thread, odds are you and most everyone else knows it's a joke. However, it's still the same 2 words if some new person with the intent of being a disruption were to say it to you maliciously and therefore...it technically warrants the same punishment. So now we have an understood joke and an obvius insult getting the same punishment because there is a mechanized system in place. Eventually, the technicalities will lead to us losing a valued member simply because they are a victim of the system.

Right now, we ALL know when someone comes along with the intent to be a dick and I feel those members are handled justly and either eventually leave or are asked to leave. I guess I just dont see the purpose of mechanizing the exact same system we alreasy have and risk the loss of good people.

[Northman]

If I tell you to "F off" in a thread, odds are you and most everyone else knows it's a joke. However, it's still the same 2 words if some new person with the intent of being a disruption were to say it to you maliciously and therefore...it technically warrants the same punishment. So now we have an understood joke and an obvius insult getting the same punishment because there is a mechanized system in place. Eventually, the technicalities will lead to us losing a valued member simply because they are a victim of the system.




The biggest problem with this is that to allow certain individuals to bypass the language filter would show bias and favortism which has been one of the biggest complaints on here. And not just by new members or old ones. Even though the intent would be for joking we would know that there would be a slew of complaints from other members who would have used the same words (jokingly or not) and got reprimanded for it. Now for me personally, i have no problem with vulgarity so as long as it isnt used as a personal insult or attack. But there was a rule in place before i got here regarding curse words. I have no idea if that was decided upon by Tned and the Mods or by the community at large. Either way, we have to be able to show consistency on how we address warnings, etc.

[HolyDiver]

See. A couple more of those 1/2 point infractions and I'll have to quit those rambling posts.


Yep, and that'll learn ya real quick, now won't it?

[HolyDiver]

I also think there should be a gold star given out to the best poster of the day......who does not have any infractions, of course..............like on Employee of the month...........

[turftoad]

And what will a point system do to help this? The point I'm trying to make is that if a rule or a point is issued to one person, then it has to be issued to all. Everything is black and white when you eliminate the understanding of the humanity and personality involved.

If I tell you to "F off" in a thread, odds are you and most everyone else knows it's a joke. However, it's still the same 2 words if some new person with the intent of being a disruption were to say it to you maliciously and therefore...it technically warrants the same punishment. So now we have an understood joke and an obvius insult getting the same punishment because there is a mechanized system in place. Eventually, the technicalities will lead to us losing a valued member simply because they are a victim of the system.

Right now, we ALL know when someone comes along with the intent to be a dick and I feel those members are handled justly and either eventually leave or are asked to leave. I guess I just dont see the purpose of mechanizing the exact same system we alreasy have and risk the loss of good people.

I don't think it will be as mechanical as some think.

The mod still needs to go in and apply the infraction. In most cases we review the thread and the history of the thread before an infraction is issued.

Coach, the system (that has been proposed) is pretty similar to the one we used at the Freak.

[CoachChaz]

The biggest problem with this is that to allow certain individuals to bypass the language filter would show bias and favortism which has been one of the biggest complaints on here. And not just by new members or old ones. Even though the intent would be for joking we would know that there would be a slew of complaints from other members who would have used the same words (jokingly or not) and got reprimanded for it. Now for me personally, i have no problem with vulgarity so as long as it isnt used as a personal insult or attack. But there was a rule in place before i got here regarding curse words. I have no idea if that was decided upon by Tned and the Mods or by the community at large. Either way, we have to be able to show consistency on how we address warnings, etc.

Good example. I was once in a thread talking baseball. We were talking about the Cubs and I mentioned the name Kosuke Fukudome.

I was actually warned by a Mod for circumventing the language filter. Of course I argued it and explained the situation and it was eventually understood, but it took all that and eventually another mod to correct the problem. If point system is in place, what are the odds that I get to defend that error?

I'm not arguing that it's a necessity that I'm allowed to type curse wordds wherever I please, I'm just saying that shit happens and people sometimes forget what thread they are in or say something they thought was okay, etc. If you eliminate the human element from those errors and misunderstandings, then you eventually piss off and/or lose good people.

But...it's pretty obvious that the "management" team doesnt see this point, so fuk it...I'm done trying to help people understand a potential issue.

[HolyDiver]

I don't think it will be as mechanical as some think.

The mod still needs to go in and apply the infraction. In most cases we review the thread and the history of the thread before an infraction is issued.

Coach, the system (that has been proposed) is pretty similar to the one we used at the Freak.


It is?

[CoachChaz]

I don't think it will be as mechanical as some think.

The mod still needs to go in and apply the infraction. In most cases we review the thread and the history of the thread before an infraction is issued.

Coach, the system (that has been proposed) is pretty similar to the one we used at the Freak.

You mean the same system that had me and cswil and many others banned at various times due to Mods not knowing the circumstances of a situation and simply assuming. That worked out so well.

What benefit is it to be a long time member with respect if any lurker with a $2 prayer book can get offended and whine about something they have no clue about?

[NameUsedBefore]

This board is small. We don't need webs of regulation to keep things in check. Instead, all this does is offer an opportunity to create the same kind of devolution that hit Mania IMO.

[OMorange&blue]

I also think there should be a gold star given out to the best poster of the day......who does not have any infractions, of course..............like on Employee of the month...........

You know what, HD, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Anubis, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?

[Northman]

Good example. I was once in a thread talking baseball. We were talking about the Cubs and I mentioned the name Kosuke Fukudome.

I was actually warned by a Mod for circumventing the language filter. Of course I argued it and explained the situation and it was eventually understood, but it took all that and eventually another mod to correct the problem. If point system is in place, what are the odds that I get to defend that error?

I'm not arguing that it's a necessity that I'm allowed to type curse wordds wherever I please, I'm just saying that shit happens and people sometimes forget what thread they are in or say something they thought was okay, etc. If you eliminate the human element from those errors and misunderstandings, then you eventually piss off and/or lose good people.

But...it's pretty obvious that the "management" team doesnt see this point, so fuk it...I'm done trying to help people understand a potential issue.


Very true, i would have never caught that Fukudome name but still kind of funny that you got involved in a discussion about it. I think for the most part the mods have tried to be more detailed about how we address things. Meaning, we have gone through great lengths to discuss everything that shows up at our doorstep. And that isnt going to change with this system. If we feel that the system caught someone for something that shouldnt have been then we can address that and fix. Im not totally familiar with this system but i would assume that we would be able to reverse anything that we felt was necessary to reverse.

[Lonestar]

Coach had a good point about us being a big family and sometime you do indeed get familiar with each other and comfortable using your regular language we are not saying you can't curse and say fuc k just type it out and say ****.. let the word filter do it's job as it just did.. ANyone witha brain can figure out what you just said. My daugther tath might walk behind me and gaze at the screen does not see it this way same for my wife, co workers, or grand kids.. I do not think any one needs more explaination than this.

BTW if you have not already figured it out there are bots on here that are seeing a post and storing them in the googles of the world for reference sake. While it might be neat to say it now do you want to have to explain to your grand kids or kids for that matter 20 years from now why it was alright for you to say it and why they can't.. Gee daddy I googled you and see you used to say it all the time.. I suspect that may give pause to you how you post in the future.. It does for me..

As it stand the vast majority on here still want to see these words filtered..

When someone goes out of their way to type in F uck it is for going around the filter and that will be until the 80% in the middle want it filtered..

As I said earlier we are not looking to change the rules just keep better track of it and take the "subjectiveness" out of banning someone..

I do not think any mod is going to change who gets an edit and a PM..

What will happen now is instead of a edit and PM they get a IP, points and edit..

It will be the choice of the poster to determine his/her own fate.. Not a group of mods or Tned to make that decision..

Play inside the rules COC no worries.. and that equates to probably 96% of the members.

Those that have been getting PMs from us will still get them and eventual bans if you do not clean up your act....

The 90% of the forum that has been concerned about some folks getting away with murder will have less to worry about because it is less bending over back wards by the mods to be PC and the chips fall where they should.. the ball is in the posters court.. they choose to be good citizens or gone..

Mods do not do it for them..
Mods do not have to present a case to have some one banned..
Tned does not have to Play Judge and Jury..

[HolyDiver]

You know what, HD, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Apa, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?


I love that movie............We really should refer to the Mods, as the Bobs.

[Northman]

This board is small. We don't need webs of regulation to keep things in check. Instead, all this does is offer an opportunity to create the same kind of devolution that hit Mania IMO.


How so?

[HolyDiver]

This board is small. We don't need webs of regulation to keep things in check. Instead, all this does is offer an opportunity to create the same kind of devolution that hit Mania IMO.

As a person who posted at both the Mania and here.............I gotta tell you guys, this place is ALOT like the Mania..............Is that the direction you really wish to go?

[Northman]

I love that movie............We really should refer to the Mods, as the Bobs.

What i would like to do HD is, have as many as 4 people underneath you. What do you think?

[CoachChaz]

Very true, i would have never caught that Fukudome name but still kind of funny that you got involved in a discussion about it. I think for the most part the mods have tried to be more detailed about how we address things. Meaning, we have gone through great lengths to discuss everything that shows up at our doorstep. And that isnt going to change with this system. If we feel that the system caught someone for something that shouldnt have been then we can address that and fix. Im not totally familiar with this system but i would assume that we would be able to reverse anything that we felt was necessary to reverse.

So, essentially...things stay the same, except the members have to be bothered and get worked up over meaningless infraction warnings and the Mods have to do more work to audit, edit and correct errors when they occur.

Explain to me where this is efficient

[Northman]

So, essentially...things stay the same, except the members have to be bothered and get worked up over meaningless infraction warnings and the Mods have to do more work to audit, edit and correct errors when they occur.

Explain to me where this is efficient


As Jr pointed out, if you guys just let the filter do its job you wont have to worry about it. And as you pointed out, if your not a individual who has a history of running into problems then you will not be hasseled.

[ApaOps5]

So if you let the filter censor you naughty word do you not get an IP?

[HolyDiver]

What i would like to do HD is, have as many as 4 people underneath you. What do you think?

So you're going to get rid of Top and jr? ...............And give me more money?

[HolyDiver]

So if you let the filter censor you naughty word do you not get an IP?

What about spelling errors.............with that cost us the standard ( Former Freaks only ) 1/2 of an infraction point?

[NameUsedBefore]

How so?

Don't fix it if isn't broke and don't touch nice things.

Etc.

[Lonestar]

This board is small. We don't need webs of regulation to keep things in check. Instead, all this does is offer an opportunity to create the same kind of devolution that hit Mania IMO.


Nothing is changing rules are not changing.. those that are constantly getting PM for us and we have to edit the same thing happens until such time as they get banned automatically instead of forcing Tned to do it..


If you have been getting constant PMs from us then its your choice to clean it up or get a vacation..

The banning thresholds should be high enough that unless you do something really stupid and only a few on here have. you should be alright..

Saying that those who are getting 5-15 PMS a week or months know who you are.. this is directed at the top 5-6 offenders the other 410 or so members probably have zero to worry about..


this is snapshot from right now..
Members: 1,005, Active Members: 417

[CoachChaz]

As Jr pointed out, if you guys just let the filter do its job you wont have to worry about it. And as you pointed out, if your not a individual who has a history of running into problems then you will not be hasseled.

But if I'm in the Lounge, I can go out of my way to say Phuck That. Then I move around a bit and end up in the baseball thread and type Phuck That again. It could be that i simply forgot I wasnt in the Lounge. it really could be any valid excuse, but with an automatic point system...it wont matter. Even though my intent was not malicious and I simply made a mistake...I get the infraction.

[NightTrainLayne]

BTW if you have not already figured it out there are bots on here that are seeing a post and storing them in the googles of the world for reference sake. While it might be neat to say it now do you want to have to explain to your grand kids or kids for that matter 20 years from now why it was alright for you to say it and why they can't.. Gee daddy I googled you and see you used to say it all the time.. I suspect that may give pause to you how you post in the future.. It does for me..



Ummm, hey guys, I think I'm going to go delete that masturbation thread I started a while back. . . :lol:

[OMorange&blue]

I love that movie............We really should refer to the Mods, as the Bobs.

Done and done.

[Northman]

Don't fix it if isn't broke and don't touch nice things.

Etc.


Well, saying that it isnt broke is all about interpretation and from whom. You dont see or deal with the massive crap that we have to deal with behind the scenes on a daily basis. Its easy to sit on the outside and claim there isnt a problem but the fact is there really is problem. Ask any mod, ask Tned they will tell you the same thing. If there wasnt a problem we wouldnt be wasting our time trying to find a system that works.

[NameUsedBefore]

Saying that those who are getting 5-15 PMS a week or months know who you are.. this is directed at the top 5-6 offenders the other 410 or so members probably have zero to worry about..

This is another problem as well. If it's just a handful of members then it shouldn't be much of a problem to take care of them locally.

[Lonestar]

So if you let the filter censor you naughty word do you not get an IP?


correct let the ******* filter work.. real simple is it not..

[NameUsedBefore]

Well, saying that it isnt broke is all about interpretation and from whom. You dont see or deal with the massive crap that we have to deal with behind the scenes on a daily basis. Its easy to sit on the outside and claim there isnt a problem but the fact is there really is problem. Ask any mod, ask Tned they will tell you the same thing. If there wasnt a problem we wouldnt be wasting our time trying to find a system that works.

How big is the problem?

From this outside perspective it looks like a handful of issues but yeah, none of us here have an inside look on things.

[NightTrainLayne]

But if I'm in the Lounge, I can go out of my way to say Phuck That. Then I move around a bit and end up in the baseball thread and type Phuck That again. It could be that i simply forgot I wasnt in the Lounge. it really could be any valid excuse, but with an automatic point system...it wont matter. Even though my intent was not malicious and I simply made a mistake...I get the infraction.

Coach, I love you man, but you're the one who lobbied for a separate opt-in lounge where we could do those things.

Now, you're using the opt-in lounge as a crutch to lobby for doing those same things outside the lounge.

Obviously, we all make honest mistakes, but at 1 point per infraction for subverting the language filter, and 21 points accumulated before losing opt-in privileges, you'd have to make that mistake way more than you currently do to result in losing those privileges. I think in Tned's example those would expire in 7 days anyways.

21 times in 7 days is not something you're doing now I don't think.

[Northman]

But if I'm in the Lounge, I can go out of my way to say Phuck That. Then I move around a bit and end up in the baseball thread and type Phuck That again. It could be that i simply forgot I wasnt in the Lounge. it really could be any valid excuse, but with an automatic point system...it wont matter. Even though my intent was not malicious and I simply made a mistake...I get the infraction.

Yea but Coach, how often does that happen? Seriously. I understand the point your making but ive never really come across that problem a lot so if that should happen then we correct the error and move on. Mistakes happen, we all understand that. The funny thing is, the language thing really isnt the biggest problem we have on here yet people are getting all up in arms about it the most in this thread.

[HolyDiver]

I'm sorry, but I am really enjoying this.........please continue.

[Northman]

How big is the problem?

From this outside perspective it looks like a handful of issues but yeah, none of us here have an inside look on things.


Pretty big, obviously mainly in one area but it does reach beyond that in other areas. As has been stated, most of those whom dont run into trouble on a regular basis have no need to worry. I think some of you are panicking for no reason here to be honest.

[Northman]

I'm sorry, but I am really enjoying this.........please continue.

It actually would be a lot better if you contributed more with your own thoughts on the subject. :D

[NightTrainLayne]

So if you let the filter censor you naughty word do you not get an IP?

Right. That's been the rule since the town-hall get-together on language.

But if you subvert the ***** filter, then you would have a 1 point infraction (i.e. phuk, ffukk, etc.)

[CoachChaz]

Coach, I love you man, but you're the one who lobbied for a separate opt-in lounge where we could do those things.

Now, you're using the opt-in lounge as a crutch to lobby for doing those same things outside the lounge.

Obviously, we all make honest mistakes, but at 1 point per infraction for subverting the language filter, and 21 points accumulated before losing opt-in privileges, you'd have to make that mistake way more than you currently do to result in losing those privileges. I think in Tned's example those would expire in 7 days anyways.

21 times in 7 days is not something you're doing now I don't think.

Completely understood, Layne, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something more severe than simply dropping a circumvented F bomb. Ask cswil what me and him were banned from the Freak for. We still really dont know, but the best explanation we could get was that we were insulting and instigating a severe problem with HD. The whole thread was a joke and everyone in it knew it was a joke. but some Mod came along, decided that it violated the COC to a point where we were given a 3 day ban. Not even a chance to argue our point. Once the ban was lifted, I argued it and the Mod eventually posted an apology stating he was wrong. But at that point, we were already out for 3 days and the damage was done.

What prevents things like that from happening?

[CoachChaz]

Yea but Coach, how often does that happen? Seriously. I understand the point your making but ive never really come across that problem a lot so if that should happen then we correct the error and move on. Mistakes happen, we all understand that. The funny thing is, the language thing really isnt the biggest problem we have on here yet people are getting all up in arms about it the most in this thread.

...and I'm merely using the language scenario as an example. Maybe I should reference other things as I did in my last post

[Lonestar]

This is another problem as well. If it's just a handful of members then it shouldn't be much of a problem to take care of them locally.


Let me try again.. Now it is subjective and we spend alot of time building a case to present to TNED for banning some one..

Since there is more than one mod we have to compare notes on who is doing what..

It takes time to do all of this and while we are doing it everyone is wondering what eh hell is going on .. It is obvious to most that XXX should be gone..

We get PMS from folks asking what is taking so long to fix and obvious issue..

All the while we are trying to build a case some one may go off on them and this then is mitigating circumstances.. and flame war breaks out instead of ignoring them.. it slows down the process while some Mod has to spend lots of time cleaning up threads .. reasons for banning become blurry as to who is at fault.. and everything becomes VERY subjective.. and things do not get done. building up frustration by everyone on the forum..

When we go to this system record keeping gets better, because every IP is recorded and sent to an area for all mods to see and ONLY you as a memebr can see your own infractions.. Everyone KNOWS where they stand.. You know how good you have to be for how long to stay away from being on vacation..

Tned is no longer invovled in the banning process except for appeals he is less cranky and can actually enjoy posting on his own site.. WIN WIN for everyone..

Less trolls, trolling.
Members posting happily less flame wars..
Mods actually not spending hours cleaning up as many threads having to close as many as we have been..
Admin actually getting to enjoy his investment
..

[HolyDiver]

It actually would be a lot better if you contributed more with your own thoughts on the subject. :D


Okay............I think it's a joke........I think the Bobs here are way too strict..........and that is why I don't post here much...........a certain group is immune to it all and that is very obvious to a person that is an outsider. ............They wanted to break away from the Broncosmania? .............Well, to me, it's the same damn thing......:salute:

[HolyDiver]

Completely understood, Layne, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something more severe than simply dropping a circumvented F bomb. Ask cswil what me and him were banned from the Freak for. We still really dont know, but the best explanation we could get was that we were insulting and instigating a severe problem with HD. The whole thread was a joke and everyone in it knew it was a joke. but some Mod came along, decided that it violated the COC to a point where we were given a 3 day ban. Not even a chance to argue our point. Once the ban was lifted, I argued it and the Mod eventually posted an apology stating he was wrong. But at that point, we were already out for 3 days and the damage was done.

What prevents things like that from happening?

Coach, when you guys got banned..I gotta tell ya, I laughed my ass off............I too though, was wondering why you guys got banned...............but it was funny as hell, pardon my infraction.

[claymore]

Okay............I think it's a joke........I think the Bobs here are way too strict..........and that is why I don't post here much...........a certain group is immune to it all and that is very obvious to a person that is an outsider. ............They wanted to break away from the Broncosmania? .............Well, to me, it's the same damn thing......:salute:

"You are just being paranoid..............the world is not against you"

[NightTrainLayne]

Completely understood, Layne, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something more severe than simply dropping a circumvented F bomb. Ask cswil what me and him were banned from the Freak for. We still really dont know, but the best explanation we could get was that we were insulting and instigating a severe problem with HD. The whole thread was a joke and everyone in it knew it was a joke. but some Mod came along, decided that it violated the COC to a point where we were given a 3 day ban. Not even a chance to argue our point. Once the ban was lifted, I argued it and the Mod eventually posted an apology stating he was wrong. But at that point, we were already out for 3 days and the damage was done.

What prevents things like that from happening?

I remember this happening, and I think it happened because there wasn't an infraction point system. .. well, there was, but it wasn't really used.

With an IP system you'd get an infraction first. Yes it might have some points attached, but under Tned's proposal that wouldn't get you arbitrarily banned like what happened at the Freak.

At that point you could appeal it if it was just a joke, but you wouldn't have the hammer dropped so quickly and arbitrarily with a ban as what happened in that instance.

It's obvious that Tned is wanting to get to a point where problems can be dealt with more swiftly. However, he doesn't want it to become something like that banning at the Freak, where it just fell out of the sky and landed on you without any warning.

The IP system that Tned has proposed is a middle-ground between not doing anything (status quo), and having capricious bans fall out of the sky without warning.

At least that's the way I see it. And Tned has tried to make it clear that the "do-nothing" approach (i.e. status quo) is wearing him and the mods out.

[Northman]

Okay............I think it's a joke........I think the Bobs here are way too strict..........and that is why I don't post here much...........a certain group is immune to it all and that is very obvious to a person that is an outsider. ............They wanted to break away from the Broncosmania? .............Well, to me, it's the same damn thing......:salute:


Interesting. So why not post on the Mane where there is more freedom to curse, personally attack other people etc? I keep hearing how bad this board is yet the same people keep coming back. It really makes no sense to me. :lol:

[CoachChaz]

Coach, when you guys got banned..I gotta tell ya, I laughed my ass off............I too though, was wondering why you guys got banned...............but it was funny as hell, pardon my infraction.

We got banned because a Mod didnt understand what was going on...assumed the worst...and served a punishment that fit the crime he ASSUMED happened.

Same shit will happen here with a similar system

[Northman]

I remember this happening, and I think it happened because there wasn't an infraction point system. .. well, there was, but it wasn't really used.

With an IP system you'd get an infraction first. Yes it might have some points attached, but under Tned's proposal that wouldn't get you arbitrarily banned like what happened at the Freak.

At that point you could appeal it if it was just a joke, but you wouldn't have the hammer dropped so quickly and arbitrarily with a ban as what happened in that instance.

It's obvious that Tned is wanting to get to a point where problems can be dealt with more swiftly. However, he doesn't want it to become something like that banning at the Freak, where it just fell out of the sky and landed on you without any warning.

The IP system that Tned has proposed is a middle-ground between not doing anything (status quo), and having capricious bans fall out of the sky without warning.

At least that's the way I see it. And Tned has tried to make it clear that the "do-nothing" approach (i.e. status quo) is wearing him and the mods out.

Exactly.

[Northman]

We got banned because a Mod didnt understand what was going on...assumed the worst...and served a punishment that fit the crime he ASSUMED happened.

Same shit will happen here with a similar system

Highly doubtful, especially in your case. Most of if not all the Mods here know the history with you and your brethren. I could see that happening with a new guy like me but considering we dont ban on the dime unless its spam i cant see that playing into effect the way you layed it out.

[CoachChaz]

Interesting. So why not post on the Mane where there is more freedom to curse, personally attack other people etc? I keep hearing how bad this board is yet the same people keep coming back. It really makes no sense to me. :lol:

No one is saying it's bad. We're all here because we have friends here and enjoy the conversation. If we have issues it's with certain things that occur behind the scenes. Like maybe...getting piled on by 4 or 5 mods every time someone says anything even mildly close to being profane.

[HolyDiver]

Interesting. So why not post on the Mane where there is more freedom to curse, personally attack other people etc? I keep hearing how bad this board is yet the same people keep coming back. It really makes no sense to me. :lol:

I post on the BroncosFreaks.............I come here to see my old buddies, from the Freak.

[Northman]

No one is saying it's bad. We're all here because we have friends here and enjoy the conversation. If we have issues it's with certain things that occur behind the scenes. Like maybe...getting piled on by 4 or 5 mods every time someone says anything even mildly close to being profane.


And that was a bit of an overreaction on your part. IMO

Just because a few mods happen to catch the same violation at the same time doesnt mean the world is against you. I understand it might be frustrating but it isnt personal man. Again, its just about consistency.

[NightTrainLayne]

And that was a bit of an overreaction on your part. IMO

Just because a few mods happen to catch the same violation at the same time doesnt mean the world is against you. I understand it might be frustrating but it isnt personal man. Again, its just about consistency.

And I'm assuming that if 4-5 mods all see it, but see that one already handed out the warning or infraction that then the other 4 would know that it's already been handled and not "pile on" right?

[Northman]

And I'm assuming that if 4-5 mods all see it, but see that one already handed out the warning or infraction that then the other 4 would know that it's already been handled and not "pile on" right?


Yes, but if they are all trying to address it at the same time then that is where the problem occurred with Coach regarding his issue. It wasnt meant to be a pile on it just happened. Again, we are only human.

[gnomeflinger]

I got virtually no sleep last night, so I'm a bit punchy, and please excuse if this has been said...

I think the main issue is not necessarily the words, but how they're used. The peeps who use the F word a lot aren't calling peeps that, but using it as a "sentence enhancer." You can say something is a piece of shit but can't call someone a piece of shit. You can also say that you think what this other peep said is shit. But you cannot call names using the F bombs and other of the more extreme words.

Is this the gist of it, or should I just shut my pie hole? :lol:

[NameUsedBefore]

And I'm assuming that if 4-5 mods all see it, but see that one already handed out the warning or infraction that then the other 4 would know that it's already been handled and not "pile on" right?

I'm imagining a "did you get the memo" Office Space scenario.

"NTL, don't forgo the censor bypass. You know this."

"NTL, I noticed you worked around the censoring. First time I've seen you do this, I'm sure it wont happen again."

"NTL, what's up. So, I'm not sure if the other mods have gotten to you, but try not to trick the filter, okay?"

"NTL, WHAT'S UP, GOD BEING A MOD IS FKING AWESOME.

- NUB"

[CoachChaz]

Yes, but if they are all trying to address it at the same time then that is where the problem occurred with Coach regarding his issue. It wasnt meant to be a pile on it just happened. Again, we are only human.

If it was all at the same time, it would be somewhat understandable. But not only did all but one assume I was intending on being disruptive, but they all said something at different times over the course of about 30 minutes. If you are telling me the word doesnt get around in 30 minutes, then there are bigger issues you guys need to figure out.

By the way, I can see why they made you a Mod. You fit in perfectly.

[Northman]

If it was all at the same time, it would be somewhat understandable. But not only did all but one assume I was intending on being disruptive, but they all said something at different times over the course of about 30 minutes. If you are telling me the word doesnt get around in 30 minutes, then there are bigger issues you guys need to figure out.

By the way, I can see why they made you a Mod. You fit in perfectly.

Why dont you cry about it some more.

[topscribe]

Okay............I think it's a joke........I think the Bobs here are way too strict..........and that is why I don't post here much...........a certain group is immune to it all and that is very obvious to a person that is an outsider. ............They wanted to break away from the Broncosmania? .............Well, to me, it's the same damn thing......:salute:

Would you tell me how the Lounge is the same thing as Mania? You know,
that is something you folks from the Freak asked for, and we gave it to you.

Moreover, threads such as this are being started to find out how the
community feels about an issue, do decide whether it will be implemented,
and how, if it is. Polls are conducted to discover what the majority thinks
about such issues, just as one will will probably be started about this one
(IP). Please do tell me where else this is done. Everywhere else, policy is
implemented according to the whims of Admin.

And this is how you express your appreciation. Well, you have found a
place that makes you happier. Great, I'm happy for you. But this is a
community-run board, and it will not change according to the desires of
one or a few posters unless the rest of the community agrees with it.

Perhaps the problem lies with a few who fail to understand this principle.

-----

[Lonestar]

We got banned because a Mod didnt understand what was going on...assumed the worst...and served a punishment that fit the crime he ASSUMED happened.

Same shit will happen here with a similar system

As it stands now the same thing could happen wit the points system a whole less likely..

We can not ding the same post more than once to the best of my knowledge.. so you can't get multiple points from the same post..

To HD this forum is not Mania in any stretch of the imagination..

This forum is member driven.. the word filter was determined by the 80% of the members in the middle of the forum..

This process is being determined by the members and so far off the top of my head it is about 70% for and a few could care less and a few that are afraid of it..

Almost every major thing on this forum has been driven by the members wishes..

Did you ever get to vote on Mania about anything of importance? Was your thoughts ever given any consideration? Everything on Mania was done for the Denver Broncos management. They paid the bills they made the decision on what was right for them and their image..

Please do not go there with the we are becoming Mania crap..

[gnomeflinger]

Anubis, do you agree with me or agree that I should shut my pie hole? :lol:

If what I said makes sense, isn't that how the CoC has always been? If so, why has there been 3 days talk about something that has already been?

:confused:

[CoachChaz]

I'm imagining a "did you get the memo" Office Space scenario.

"NTL, don't forgo the censor bypass. You know this."

"NTL, I noticed you worked around the censoring. First time I've seen you do this, I'm sure it wont happen again."

"NTL, what's up. So, I'm not sure if the other mods have gotten to you, but try not to trick the filter, okay?"

"NTL, WHAT'S UP, GOD BEING A MOD IS FKING AWESOME.

- NUB"

Without being able to quote perfectly, my situation was generally like this...

Mod 1: Hey, whats going on with this, Coach?
Coach: Just a little joke to have some fun
Mod 1: Probably not a good idea
Coach: No problem, I'll stop

10 minutes later

Mod 2: Hey, what's the deal? You know this is against te COC. You need to stop.
Coach: I already did

15 minutes later

Mod 3: What's going on with this?
Coach: It was a joke, I stopped doing it 25 minutes ago. I've been pounded by mods, so if you are going to ban me, then go for it
Mod 3: No need for the attitude

2 hours later

Mod 4: You do realize that you violated the COC and we could have banned you
Coach: I already heard this from 3 other people
Mod 4: I just dont get why you feel you're being ganged up on when we are letting this slide.

[turftoad]

If it was all at the same time, it would be somewhat understandable. But not only did all but one assume I was intending on being disruptive, but they all said something at different times over the course of about 30 minutes. If you are telling me the word doesnt get around in 30 minutes, then there are bigger issues you guys need to figure out.

By the way, I can see why they made you a Mod. You fit in perfectly.

Your sitch was different because of what and how it happened.

We wanted to find out what was going on. You were not warned or infracted. A couple of us wanted to PM you to find out what was going on. We happened to do so at the same time without knowing the other had did it.


When a member is infracted or a reported post is reported it showed up in the mod forum. It doesn't show up that we are sending PM's to member in order to find out what the sitch is.
We didn't want to do anything or take any action until we got to the bottom of it.

We were trying to be fair to a good long time member. :D

[CoachChaz]

As it stands now the same thing could happen wit the points system a whole less likely..

We can not ding the same post more than once to the best of my knowledge.. so you can't get multiple points from the same post..

To HD this forum is not Mania in any stretch of the imagination..

This forum is member driven.. the word filter was determined by the 80% of the members in the middle of the forum..

This process is being determined by the members and so far off the top of my head it is about 70% for and a few could care less and a few that are afraid of it..

Almost every major thing on this forum has been driven by the members wishes..

Did you ever get to vote on Mania about anything of importance? Was your thoughts ever given any consideration? Everything on Mania was done for the Denver Broncos management. They paid the bills they made the decision on what was right for them and their image..

Please do not go there with the we are becoming Mania crap..

I've never been to the Mania, nor have I ever referenced it. Watch who you quote.

I'm a Freak and that site was fairly lenient...except things became too black and white and it was way too easy for a Mod to misunderstand something and cause a problem that was never there. That's what I'm afraid will happen with this new system

[Northman]

Anubis, do you agree with me or agree that I should shut my pie hole? :lol:

If what I said makes sense, isn't that how the CoC has always been? If so, why has there been 3 days talk about something that has already been?

:confused:

Nah, you made some good points. It wasnt about you shutting your piehole. :lol:

[CoachChaz]

Your sitch was different because of what and how it happened.

We wanted to find out what was going on. You were not warned or infracted. A couple of us wanted to PM you to find out what was going on. We happened to do so at the same time without knowing the other had did it.


When a member is infracted or a reported post is reported it showed up in the mod forum. It doesn't show up that we are sending PM's to member in order to find out what the sitch is.
We didn't want to do anything or take any action until we got to the bottom of it.

We were trying to be fair to a good long time member. :D

Again, if it all happened at once, I could understand...but it didnt

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Completely understood, Layne, but I'm thinking more along the lines of something more severe than simply dropping a circumvented F bomb. Ask cswil what me and him were banned from the Freak for. We still really dont know, but the best explanation we could get was that we were insulting and instigating a severe problem with HD. The whole thread was a joke and everyone in it knew it was a joke. but some Mod came along, decided that it violated the COC to a point where we were given a 3 day ban. Not even a chance to argue our point. Once the ban was lifted, I argued it and the Mod eventually posted an apology stating he was wrong. But at that point, we were already out for 3 days and the damage was done.

What prevents things like that from happening?

In the past, there have been many times, mostly in the lounge, where a situation could appear that there was major insulting going on. That is when we call on one of the mods who is most familiar with the posters involved - i.e. if it is between two Xfreaks - we call on turf to see if he feels it is just innocent bantering back and forth. Believe me, there are many things we discuss behind the scenes - a mod just does not drop the hammer.

[topscribe]

If it was all at the same time, it would be somewhat understandable. But not only did all but one assume I was intending on being disruptive, but they all said something at different times over the course of about 30 minutes. If you are telling me the word doesnt get around in 30 minutes, then there are bigger issues you guys need to figure out.

By the way, I can see why they made you a Mod. You fit in perfectly.

What is that supposed to mean? Coach, I came to you with my hand out to
you, in an attempt to explain what happened. Then you said it was over, and
let's let it go and leave it behind.

Is this how you let it go?

I also explained to you that we are working on ways to avoid this from
happening again. Honestly, I really don't know what you want. As I told
you in our PM exchange, I really do enjoy and appreciate your insightful
analyses here, but I am really puzzled by this ongoing problem you are
having with us, even though we have tried to reach out to you.

Tell us how we can make it better . . .

-----

[CoachChaz]

In the past, there have been many times, mostly in the lounge, where a situation could appear that there was major insulting going on. That is when we call on one of the mods who is most familiar with the posters involved - i.e. if it is between two Xfreaks - we call on turf to see if he feels it is just innocent bantering back and forth. Believe me, there are many things we discuss situations behind the scenes - a mod just does not drop the hammer.

Finally...something close to an answer I'm looking for. Thank you, Carol

[Northman]

We wanted to find out what was going on. You were not warned or infracted. A couple of us wanted to PM you to find out what was going on. We happened to do so at the same time without knowing the other had did it.




And this was done because of the supposed "coughrespectedmembercough" reputation.

[turftoad]

And this was done because of the supposed "coughrespectedmembercough" reputation.

Thats exactly right. And the way it should be.

[CoachChaz]

And this was done because of the supposed "coughrespectedmembercough" reputation.

That's what I like in a Mod. Responding to concerns with sarcasm. I can personally do without your input on this anymore if it's joke to you

[Lonestar]

Without being able to quote perfectly, my situation was generally like this...

Mod 1: Hey, whats going on with this, Coach?
Coach: Just a little joke to have some fun
Mod 1: Probably not a good idea
Coach: No problem, I'll stop

10 minutes later

Mod 2: Hey, what's the deal? You know this is against te COC. You need to stop.
Coach: I already did

15 minutes later

Mod 3: What's going on with this?
Coach: It was a joke, I stopped doing it 25 minutes ago. I've been pounded by mods, so if you are going to ban me, then go for it
Mod 3: No need for the attitude

2 hours later

Mod 4: You do realize that you violated the COC and we could have banned you
Coach: I already heard this from 3 other people
Mod 4: I just dont get why you feel you're being ganged up on when we are letting this slide.


just curious this ever happen here lately?

[CoachChaz]

just curious this ever happen here lately?

Ummm...2 days ago.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Finally...something close to an answer I'm looking for. Thank you, Carol

Coach - I can assure you that you would not believe all of the discussions that go on. No mod here has the attitude to "hang" someone.

[OMorange&blue]

All the while we are trying to build a case some one may go off on them and this then is mitigating circumstances.. and flame war breaks out instead of ignoring them.. it slows down the process while some Mod has to spend lots of time cleaning up threads .. reasons for banning become blurry as to who is at fault.. and everything becomes VERY subjective.. and things do not get done. building up frustration by everyone on the forum..


I like a good flame war....:popcorn:

[NightTrainLayne]

Again, if it all happened at once, I could understand...but it didnt

Well, I think even the mods are not all here at the same time, and probably didn't communicate as effectively as they should have.

Bad on them. I understand why you feel that way.

However, had the IP system been in place, Mod's 2-4 would likely already see the warning or infraction placed and know that it was taken care of.

The way I understand it, the IP system will help the Mod's communication on an issue quite a bit, being that they will see quickly what action (if any) has already been taken on a subject.

[HolyDiver]

I think the answer would be to make me a mod............That should solve everything.

[HolyDiver]

I know where Coach is coming from.............Same thing happened to me.

[Lonestar]

I've never been to the Mania, nor have I ever referenced it. Watch who you quote.

I'm a Freak and that site was fairly lenient...except things became too black and white and it was way too easy for a Mod to misunderstand something and cause a problem that was never there. That's what I'm afraid will happen with this new system


guess you did not really read the post so let me show it again..


To HD this forum is not Mania in any stretch of the imagination..

This forum is member driven.. the word filter was determined by the 80% of the members in the middle of the forum..

This process is being determined by the members and so far off the top of my head it is about 70% for and a few could care less and a few that are afraid of it..

Almost every major thing on this forum has been driven by the members wishes..

Did you ever get to vote on Mania about anything of importance? Was your thoughts ever given any consideration? Everything on Mania was done for the Denver Broncos management. They paid the bills they made the decision on what was right for them and their image..

Please do not go there with the we are becoming Mania crap..

Sorry that I combined two answers in one quote .. I suspect this will clear it up..

[CoachChaz]

Well, I think even the mods are not all here at the same time, and probably didn't communicate as effectively as they should have.

Bad on them. I understand why you feel that way.

However, had the IP system been in place, Mod's 2-4 would likely already see the warning or infraction placed and know that it was taken care of.

The way I understand it, the IP system will help the Mod's communication on an issue quite a bit, being that they will see quickly what action (if any) has already been taken on a subject.

It's possible it would have worked, but likely not. Mod 1 approached me and discussed the situation and based on that...may not have given me an infraction, but then maybe Mod 2 or 3 or 4 might have. So if the others dont see what happened with me and Mod 1, then what stops them from having a different opinion and infracting me for something I was already exanerated from?

It's just a question. I'm curious

[CoachChaz]

guess you did not really read the post so let me show it again..


Sorry that I combined two answers in one quote .. I suspect this will clear it up..

Sorry I missed the first part

[Lonestar]

Ummm...2 days ago.

Could you send me the PM's I'd like to see it.. for that matter send them to Tned if you do not trust me..


I've looked at my PM's for the past week and see none to you so I'd guess it is the other 5 mods that were working over the week end..

[NightTrainLayne]

It's possible it would have worked, but likely not. Mod 1 approached me and discussed the situation and based on that...may not have given me an infraction, but then maybe Mod 2 or 3 or 4 might have. So if the others dont see what happened with me and Mod 1, then what stops them from having a different opinion and infracting me for something I was already exanerated from?

It's just a question. I'm curious

If I understand the system described. . .big If.

But if I understand it, the 1st Mod (I'm guessing it was Turf), would have notated a warning infraction (zero points), or a real infraction (who knows how many points), and it would then be immediately visible to all the other mods that he had reviewed it.

I'm guessing, based on the way it was handled, that it would have been more of a warning variety (logged but no points) since you fixed the issue so quickly and you are a respected member, but I'm not a mod.

Maybe the Mods could chime in on how this situation would have been handled under the new system to either alleviate, or justify Coach's fears?

[CoachChaz]

Could you send me the PM's I'd like to see it.. for that matter send them to Tned if you do not trust me..


I've looked at my PM's for the past week and see none to you so I'd guess it is the other 5 mods that were working over the week end..

You werent one of them.

[Northman]

Could you send me the PM's I'd like to see it.. for that matter send them to Tned if you do not trust me..


I've looked at my PM's for the past week and see none to you so I'd guess it is the other 5 mods that were working over the week end..


Going by my recollection of the discussion on it i believe it was Turf, Top, and Tned who were addressing his issue. All of them who happened to be a various spots on the board at the time.

[CoachChaz]

If I understand the system described. . .big If.

But if I understand it, the 1st Mod (I'm guessing it was Turf), would have notated a warning infraction (zero points), or a real infraction (who knows how many points), and it would then be immediately visible to all the other mods that he had reviewed it.

I'm guessing, based on the way it was handled, that it would have been more of a warning variety (logged buy no points) since you fixed the issue so quickly and you are a respected member, but I'm not a mod.

Maybe the Mods could chime in on how this situation would have been handled under the new system to either alleviate, or justify Coach's fears?

Answers are pretty much all I'm looking for. But Anubis wants to be a smartass and some others just want to remind me that people voted on not using curse words. Not really what I'm getting at.

[CoachChaz]

Going by my recollection of the discussion on it i believe it was Turf, Top, and Tned who were addressing his issue. All of them who happened to be a various spots on the board at the time.

There was one other, but it's obviously not important and I just keep crying about it, so we can just let it go. Nothing close to this has ever happened before and will never happen again. It's all in my pansyass head

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It's possible it would have worked, but likely not. Mod 1 approached me and discussed the situation and based on that...may not have given me an infraction, but then maybe Mod 2 or 3 or 4 might have. So if the others dont see what happened with me and Mod 1, then what stops them from having a different opinion and infracting me for something I was already exanerated from?

It's just a question. I'm curious

Everything would be coordinated - i.e. - if there is a reported post, and it is a clear cut infraction violation, -ie - circumventing language filter outside of the lounge - no discussion necessary, a mod would indicate "i have it". Once the infraction is given, another mod can not issue another infraction for the same post the infraction was given for. If it is NOT a clear cut violation, nothing is done before there is mod discussion.

[Lonestar]

Well, I think even the mods are not all here at the same time, and probably didn't communicate as effectively as they should have.

Bad on them. I understand why you feel that way.

However, had the IP system been in place, Mod's 2-4 would likely already see the warning or infraction placed and know that it was taken care of.

The way I understand it, the IP system will help the Mod's communication on an issue quite a bit, being that they will see quickly what action (if any) has already been taken on a subject.

Exactly right now I may not know if someone is handling something unless it has been reported.. Then we all get a Email and it pops up on the USER CP screen as a thread for us to look at..

Are mistakes gonna happen sure but this system will reduce the possibility of it.

IMO this is much ado about nothing..

[NightTrainLayne]

Answers are pretty much all I'm looking for. But Anubis wants to be a smartass and some others just want to remind me that people voted on not using curse words. Not really what I'm getting at.

How about it guys and gal? How would this have been handled under the new system? Infraction or not? Points? Suspension? Ban?

Take your time and confer with one another if you need to. . .whatever you do don't have 5 different answers now.

[Lonestar]

You werent one of them.

Were you banned and I did not notice?

[HolyDiver]

Maybe an infraction should occur if a member feels like they are being attacked and forms a complaint..............but also those complaints have to be sometimes taken with a grain of salt..preferrably sea salt, it's just a more natural salt that is not so heavily processed and......well never mind, but if EVERY complaint turned into an infraction, we would have the same damn ( -1/2 infraction point for me) members that continuing to complain............Now if someone is being ganged up on.........oh, I don't know, say for a Selvin Young comment or something, just to pick a name out of a hat....and that person retaliates and THAT person, gets the warning...well...........something is wrong with that system.

[NightTrainLayne]

Maybe an infraction should occur if a member feels like they are being attacked and forms a complaint..............but also those complaints have to be sometimes taken with a grain of salt..preferrably sea salt, it's just a more natural salt that is not so heavily processed and......well never mind, but if EVERY complaint turned into an infraction, we would have the same damn ( -1/2 infraction point for me) members that continuing to complain............Now if someone is being ganged up on.........oh, I don't know, say for a Selvin Young comment or something, just to pick a name out of a hat....and that person retaliates and THAT person, gets the warning...well...........something is wrong with that system.

That's what they're trying to avoid HD. That's what happened under the current system to you, and that's what they are trying to fix.

[CoachChaz]

Were you banned and I did not notice?

No...but it was made very obvious by 2 people that I should feel lucky that I wasnt. Pathetic