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WARHORSE
05-18-2011, 01:47 PM
Just reading this article about the Miami Dolphins, but it included a breakdown of the QBs available to them in order to make them a contender.

Check it out:

A statistical study of the past two decades has convinced me that the Dolphins’ best chance of fielding a winning team in 2011 is to find a quarterback who can provide a plus-80 quarterback rating throughout the season.

A plus-80 quarterback should be enough to fuel the running game, which needs to improve on its 3.7 yards per carry average, and piggyback on Mike Nolan’s young and aggressive defense, which should blossom in 2011 if all the major players (Solai, Kendall Langford, Randy Starks, Cameron Wake, Karlos Dansby, Koa Misi, Vontae Davis, Sean Smith and Yeremiah Bell) remain healthy, and AT THE LEAST play up to last year’s production level.

As painful as this might sound, at this stage (with the GM and coach on the hot seat, the draft already concluded, and a lockout shortened offseason upon us) the Dolphins need a caretaker at quarterback more than a world beater (that would be nice to find, but extremely unrealistic).

Here’s a look at the quarterback ratings of some of the available quarterbacks….

Kyle Orton was 87.5 in 2010 and 86.8 in 2009, his first two seasons with the Broncos. His quarterback rating was 79.6 in 2008, which was his second full season as a starter in Chicago.

Carson Palmer, who turns 32 this year, was 82.4 in 2010, 83.6 in ‘09, 69.0 in 4 games of ‘08, 86.7 in 2007, 93.9 in ‘06, and 101.1 in ‘05.

Marc Bulger, who just turned 34, had a 70.7 quarterback rating in the nine games he played in during his injury-shortened 2009 season. He had a 71.4 rating in 2008, a 70.3 rating in 2007, a 92.9 rating in 2006, a 94.4 in 2005, and a 95.7 rating in 2004. Throughout his 11 year career Bulger has a 84.4 quarterback rating.



Ultimately, it points out Orton as the QB for them to go after.....not Kolb. Interesting.

Read the whole article
http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2011/05/joey-porter-says-miami-dolphins-coach-dont-beat-yourself.html

NorCalBronco7
05-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Ortons fits well with what the Dolphins want to do, but I cant help but think that Palmer is a better Qb in any system. Still, Orton and Marshall have chemistry and lets hope that Miami really falls in love with Orton so the Broncos can get good deal for him.

MileHighCrew
05-18-2011, 02:09 PM
It would be so fitting if the Broncos got 2 2nds for Orton (not that I think they can get 2 2nds for Orton just that is would be fitting.)

NightTerror218
05-18-2011, 02:11 PM
Well Orton knows Marshall, but how will their running game look? Orton will only work well in a dominant running team. That can over compensate for his inabilities in the redzone and to take pressure off him.

Dzone
05-18-2011, 02:23 PM
Looks like Palmer has steadily gotten worse every year. Orton would be a good fit in Miami. Get rid of him while the gettin is good.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 02:38 PM
Would that make them the Broncos of the East?

chazoe60
05-18-2011, 02:49 PM
As long as they don't need to rely on him at the end of close games he'll be a fine game manager for them. I'll drive him to the airport if he needs a ride.

robert ethan
05-18-2011, 02:49 PM
Can't overlook the fact that Orton is just 28 for the upcoming season. I think Kolb is about the same age. Kyle is still ascending as an NFL quarterback. Much more so than Palmer, Bulger, Hasselbeck, McNabb, etc. If he is pitching in the high 80s for some so so teams, there is every chance he could get up in the 100s with a good team in the next few years.

NorCalBronco7
05-18-2011, 03:03 PM
Can't overlook the fact that Orton is just 28 for the upcoming season. I think Kolb is about the same age. Kyle is still ascending as an NFL quarterback. Much more so than Palmer, Bulger, Hasselbeck, McNabb, etc. If he is pitching in the high 80s for some so so teams, there is every chance he could get up in the 100s with a good team in the next few years.

Ortons last two seasons hes improved. Last year he made huge strides in the deep passing game. Hes only 28. Thats why hes one of the most valuable Qbs if free agency takes place.

I see potential in Kolb but not much production. Not sure why Kolb would be more sought after than Orton, but Im not sure thats the case. Theres no chance in hell the Eagles get a 1st for Kolb.

KCL
05-18-2011, 03:10 PM
I think Orton is good enough to still be a starter.

NorCalBronco7
05-18-2011, 03:21 PM
I think Orton is good enough to still be a starter.

If Orton stays in Denver this season, then I really believe he will be the starter game 1. Fox loves vets. Its that simple.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 03:40 PM
What're kolb's stats again? How many wins?
Orton has proven he can digest a playbook in a short amount of time. Kolb hasn't proved squat, other than he chokes easier than roseanne singing the NA.

KCL
05-18-2011, 03:41 PM
What're kolb's stats again? How many wins?
Orton has proven he can digest a playbook in a short amount of time. Kolb hasn't proved squat, other than he chokes easier than roseanne singing the NA.

Now that was pathetic...:mad:

WARHORSE
05-18-2011, 03:42 PM
I think Orton will KILL it in the wildcat offense!!!:coffee:



I also like to fall out of trees.




I believe Orton is the QB that would turn Miami around, simply because of the way theyre built.

Um.....they drafted Pouncy.......then RB Daniel Thomas...6' 230 LBS, this guy has great ability.

Thomas also can throw the football AND, he played in an option offense.

What does that sound like?


Sounds like an offense that would thrive with Chad Pennington at QB, cause he can manage a ball control offense.

Whazzat? :shocked: Chad is done?

Have you guys heard of Kyle Orton?

PERFECT for your studly offensive line. And he knows Brandon too, although his wife hasnt stabbed him yet...:coffee:

topscribe
05-18-2011, 03:42 PM
Can't overlook the fact that Orton is just 28 for the upcoming season. I think Kolb is about the same age. Kyle is still ascending as an NFL quarterback. Much more so than Palmer, Bulger, Hasselbeck, McNabb, etc. If he is pitching in the high 80s for some so so teams, there is every chance he could get up in the 100s with a good team in the next few years.

Actually, until his last two games, in which he was playing hurt, Orton's QBR was 96.0 . . .

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topscribe
05-18-2011, 03:43 PM
[/B]

Now that was pathetic...:mad:

So was Roseanne's performance . . . :lol:

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Shananahan
05-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Kolb's stats are a joke compared to Orton's, the most glaring of which is games started. If Kolb does end up being traded for more than Orton it will only be because other teams convince themselves that his lack of experience is equal to his potential.

KCL
05-18-2011, 03:47 PM
So was Roseanne's performance . . . :lol:

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uh yeah top..that's what I meant...:rolleyes:

:D

WARHORSE
05-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Its settled then...........Miami gives us their first rounder next year for Orton.

Yeah baby.:salute:

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 03:54 PM
Kolb's stats are a joke compared to Orton's, the most glaring of which is games started. If Kolb does end up being traded for more than Orton it will only be because other teams convince themselves that his lack of experience is equal to his potential.

If this lockout has proved nothing else, its shown how teams are willing to overpay for the qb position. It started with the overdrafting, and looks to continue in free agency.
I imagine EFX will be getting offers even they didn't expect.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 03:57 PM
Kolb's stats are a joke compared to Orton's, the most glaring of which is games started. If Kolb does end up being traded for more than Orton it will only be because other teams convince themselves that his lack of experience is equal to his potential.

I have heard that one of the reason's the Cardinals are interested in Kolb as a first option has to do with the belief that Kolb has more upside.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 04:14 PM
I have heard that one of the reason's the Cardinals are interested in Kolb as a first option has to do with the belief that Kolb has more upside.
Believe they said that about anderson. Lol

topscribe
05-18-2011, 04:20 PM
Believe they said that about anderson. Lol

It's curious where all that may be coming from, since Elway said there has been
no contact regarding Orton, IIRC . . .

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rcsodak
05-18-2011, 04:26 PM
It's curious where all that may be coming from, since Elway said there has been
no contact regarding Orton, IIRC . . .

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Top, Phily says they haven't had discussions....denver says it.....blah blah blah.
I think the deals have already been made, frankly. But until the legaleze has concluded......

topscribe
05-18-2011, 04:32 PM
Top, Phily says they haven't had discussions....denver says it.....blah blah blah.
I think the deals have already been made, frankly. But until the legaleze has concluded......

May be so, but I think Denver's in a quandary. In another thread (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1265160&postcount=92), I referred to
an interview with a knowledgeable source whose opinion would serve to cast
doubt on any form of trade involving Orton, at least this year. Take a listen at
it . . .

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rcsodak
05-18-2011, 04:44 PM
May be so, but I think Denver's in a quandary. In another thread (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1265160&postcount=92), I referred to
an interview with a knowledgeable source whose opinion would serve to cast
doubt on any form of trade involving Orton, at least this year. Take a listen at
it . . .

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Could be...... :shrugs:

Lonestar
05-18-2011, 04:45 PM
If they are smart they trade Orton for anything they can get.

The few extra wins he can get you simply are not worth losing an extra pick or two in the draft next year.

There is no way he will resign in DEN as we speak after tebow time last year and having to read about every QB on the planet being brought in to be checked out.
I like the guy but he would be brain dead FO come back to dEn after that.

WARHORSE
05-18-2011, 04:48 PM
I dont want a second for Orton.

I want a first, and I'll give you Orton and a fourth for it.



Goodbye Kyle. :salute:

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 04:56 PM
We won't get a first for Orton. Maybe a 2nd but not a 1st.

Magnificent Seven
05-18-2011, 05:03 PM
I would take Marc Bulger for Tebow's back up. Trade Orton for a stud DT or Defensive Back.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:10 PM
We won't get a first for Orton. Maybe a 2nd but not a 1st.
Some said denver couldn't garner what they did for bm. Value goes up with need.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 05:10 PM
If they are smart they trade Orton for anything they can get.

The few extra wins he can get you simply are not worth losing an extra pick or two in the draft next year.

There is no way he will resign in DEN as we speak after tebow time last year and having to read about every QB on the planet being brought in to be checked out.
I like the guy but he would be brain dead FO come back to dEn after that.

That doesn't necessarily tell us anything, either. If they went shopping for QBs
because they weren't sure about Orton, then that would have to apply to
Tebow, too. If they did not have doubts about whether Tebow is "the future,"
then why shop for QBs?

That is why I suspect they are in a quandary over what they have right now.
If Orton starts, builds upon last year's pre-injury performace, and they win a
few games, there is always the prospect of extending his contract.

Or not . . . I'm not trying to say what is going to happen. I'm just trying to
discuss all the scenarios . . .

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Tned
05-18-2011, 05:12 PM
It's curious where all that may be coming from, since Elway said there has been
no contact regarding Orton, IIRC . . .

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I'm guessing it's mostly speculation. Elway on Sirius last week waffling on whether or not Orton would be on the roster when training camp starts didn't help stop the speculation. I was a little surprised by his response.

Tned
05-18-2011, 05:14 PM
Some said denver couldn't garner what they did for bm. Value goes up with need.

Quite a few of the talking heads expected Denver to get a 1st or 1st and 2nd for Marshall. The stuff I listened to indicated that McDaniels actions at the end of the year killed his value, because everyone knew that McDaniels wanted/had to move him.

LawDog
05-18-2011, 05:15 PM
Actually, until his last two games, in which he was playing hurt, Orton's QBR was 96.0 . . .

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Actually, on the road he was 76.4, at home 99.0, against AFC teams 89.5, against NFC teams 87.9, in winning games 114.2, in losing efforts 78.6, when scoring 20 or more points 105.0, when scoring 19 or less points 75.5...

topscribe
05-18-2011, 05:16 PM
I'm guessing it's mostly speculation. Elway on Sirius last week waffling on whether or not Orton would be on the roster when training camp starts didn't help stop the speculation. I was a little surprised by his response.

Part of that, I think, is that it really is not up to Elway. If Fox wants to keep
Orton -- or any other player -- I can see that being fine with Elway. If he
doesn't, that's fine, too. After all, Fox is the one who is going to put the team
together when the elbows and other parts start flying, and Elway knows that . . .

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rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:18 PM
That doesn't necessarily tell us anything, either. If they went shopping for QBs
because they weren't sure about Orton, then that would have to apply to
Tebow, too. If they did not have doubts about whether Tebow is "the future,"
then why shop for QBs?

That is why I suspect they are in a quandary over what they have right now.
If Orton starts, builds upon last year's pre-injury performace, and they win a
few games, there is always the prospect of extending his contract.

Or not . . . I'm not trying to say what is going to happen. I'm just trying to
discuss all the scenarios . . .

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Having the #2 pick, where they're never expecting to ever revisit, ANY team would be silly not to do their due diligence on looking for a franchise qb. Indy was even thought to be looking for mannings successor, so a team like denver was expected to do their job. And the next year, and the next year.
Tommy maddox comes to mind.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 05:19 PM
Actually, on the road he was 76.4, at home 99.0, against AFC teams 89.5, against NFC teams 87.9, in winning games 114.2, in losing efforts 78.6, when scoring 20 or more points 105.0, when scoring 19 or less points 75.5...

etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

I'm not trying to argue anything. They were talking about a QB whose QBR is
over 80, and that's where Orton's overall QBR was. :whoknows:

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topscribe
05-18-2011, 05:24 PM
Having the #2 pick, where they're never expecting to ever revisit, ANY team would be silly not to do their due diligence on looking for a franchise qb. Indy was even thought to be looking for mannings successor, so a team like denver was expected to do their job. And the next year, and the next year.
Tommy maddox comes to mind.

Elway and Fox said they weren't sure a Franchise QB was on the roster. That
was very telling to me . . . they seem very uncomfortable at the moment with
what they have. However, there doesn't seem much they can do about it now,
except go with what they have and let the best of the three rise to the top.

It would just seem to me that any kind of trade involving either Orton or Tebow
would leave a big hole. I may be wrong, but it just seems a little too late to
entertain a trade at this point . . .

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Tned
05-18-2011, 05:25 PM
Part of that, I think, is that it really is not up to Elway. If Fox wants to keep
Orton -- or any other player -- I can see that being fine with Elway. If he
doesn't, that's fine, too. After all, Fox is the one who is going to put the team
together when the elbows and other parts start flying, and Elway knows that . . .

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Hard to say on where the personnel lines are being drawn with this front office. My sense is the three of them are working pretty close together.

Anyway, my point was that I would have expected a more politically correct response from Elway about whether or not Orton would be on the roster when training camp starts.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 05:27 PM
Hard to say on where the personnel lines are being drawn with this front office. My sense is the three of them are working pretty close together.

Anyway, my point was that I would have expected a more politically correct response from Elway about whether or not Orton would be on the roster when training camp starts.

It is hard to read, isn't it? It could mean that they are entertaining feelers, or
it could simply mean they have no idea at this point. We likely won't know until
it happens, if anything . . .

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rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:31 PM
I'm guessing it's mostly speculation. Elway on Sirius last week waffling on whether or not Orton would be on the roster when training camp starts didn't help stop the speculation. I was a little surprised by his response.
Wasnt he asked whether orton and tebow, BOTH, would be on the roster?

Tned
05-18-2011, 05:33 PM
It is hard to read, isn't it? It could mean that they are entertaining feelers, or
it could simply mean they have no idea at this point. We likely won't know until
it happens, if anything . . .

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Oh, I definitely don't think we can, or should, infer that it means they are going to work hard to trade him or have even decided they will trade him if they have the chance. It's just a reversal from Fox's "Orton's our starter" comment.

IMO, if they don't reach an agreement pretty soon, where Tebow, Fox, McCoy and company can spend lot's of time together, I think it greatly lessens the likelihood of them going with Tebow week 1 (meaning whatever turns out to be the first game of the season).

If there is a surprise breakthrough and the players/owners get a new CBA relatively quickly, and they start OTA's and mini-camps, then I think there is a better chance they would be comfortable starting Tebow.

Obviously, this is pure speculation on my part. Nobody but a select group in the front office know what they are thinking in terms of Tebow, Orton and Quinn.

Tned
05-18-2011, 05:36 PM
Wasnt he asked whether orton and tebow, BOTH, would be on the roster?

I posted some quotes on Twitter and would have to go back and check, but I am pretty sure he was asked whether Orton would be on the roster.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:36 PM
Quite a few of the talking heads expected Denver to get a 1st or 1st and 2nd for Marshall. The stuff I listened to indicated that McDaniels actions at the end of the year killed his value, because everyone knew that McDaniels wanted/had to move him.
I never heard 1st AND 2nd, T. I heard 1st, 1st + 3rd/player....Posters were spewing how mcd ruined his value (like THAT was the reason), and NOWAY they'd get anything remotely close to that.
hmmmmm....what was he traded for?

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:38 PM
Actually, on the road he was 76.4, at home 99.0, against AFC teams 89.5, against NFC teams 87.9, in winning games 114.2, in losing efforts 78.6, when scoring 20 or more points 105.0, when scoring 19 or less points 75.5...

Where the hell YOU been? :beer:

topscribe
05-18-2011, 05:38 PM
Wasnt he asked whether orton and tebow, BOTH, would be on the roster?

True, but I believe the issue would center on Orton. I believe he would have the
higher trade value. He is experienced and polished, can play under center, and
does not have accuracy issues, all which experts have mentioned regarding
Tebow. Tebow is still a project, whereas Orton is "turn key" -- he can play NOW.
Not that Tebow can't, but Orton has proven that, whereas Tebow has yet
largely to prove it.

Which is also why, incidentally, Kolb may well end up a "Plan B" to Orton, for the
same reasons, IMO . . .

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Tned
05-18-2011, 05:40 PM
Wasnt he asked whether orton and tebow, BOTH, would be on the roster?

I went back to look at my quote. You are correct, he was asked if they would both be on the roster, but he responded by talking about Orton:


RT @BroncosForums: [Elway] Just asked if Tebow and Orton will be both on roster -- said hard to know right now. "Whether Kyle will be here or not is hard to say"...

RT @BroncosForums: but right now they are planning on Orton to be in camp competing for a position.

That's what I posted while listening to it live.

Tned
05-18-2011, 05:43 PM
True, but I believe the issue would center on Orton. I believe he would have the
higher trade value. He is experienced and polished, can play under center, and
does not have accuracy issues, all which experts have mentioned regarding
Tebow. Tebow is still a project, whereas Orton is "turn key" -- he can play NOW.
Not that Tebow can't, but Orton has proven that, whereas Tebow has yet
largely to prove it.

Which is also why, incidentally, Kolb may well end up a "Plan B" to Orton, for the
same reasons, IMO . . .

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Clearly it isn't just because Orton is more tradable. If they didn't/don't think Tebow is a long term solution, they aren't about to trade Orton for a second or something, only to piss away a year with Tebow at QB. They only trade Orton if they think Tebow or Quinn either gives them a better chance to win now, or is the long term answer and needs to be developed.

There is no way they trade Orton simply because he would bring a little more value (up for debate) now).

Surely you don't think that if Orton was traded it would simply be because he is the better QB (more polished, can play under center, etc.) and therefore would bring more in a trade.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:45 PM
I posted some quotes on Twitter and would have to go back and check, but I am pretty sure he was asked whether Orton would be on the roster.
From what I heard, schein asked whether both would be on the roster this season, elway said they just don't know WHO will be at this point, until after training camp. He also said that given the experience factor, orton is still considered the starter, at this point in time.
But my ears are older than yours.

Tned
05-18-2011, 05:46 PM
I never heard 1st AND 2nd, T. I heard 1st, 1st + 3rd/player....Posters were spewing how mcd ruined his value (like THAT was the reason), and NOWAY they'd get anything remotely close to that.
hmmmmm....what was he traded for?

It could have been 1st + 3rd, I remember them speculating on a first plus something. I believe he was traded for two seconds. Obviously, based on the point values, depending on where the first and third was compared to two seconds would make a difference, but at the same time since one of the seconds was a 'future' second, that diminishes the value.

I'll admit that I never look closely at the point value stuff to have a feel for comparing different ones.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 05:52 PM
It could have been 1st + 3rd, I remember them speculating on a first plus something. I believe he was traded for two seconds. Obviously, based on the point values, depending on where the first and third was compared to two seconds would make a difference, but at the same time since one of the seconds was a 'future' second, that diminishes the value.

I'll admit that I never look closely at the point value stuff to have a feel for comparing different ones.

I'm mobile so can't check what miami's spot was last year, but fututes are generally considered #16, point wise, if I remember correctly. What did it turn out to be this year?

chazoe60
05-18-2011, 05:56 PM
If Orton gets traded do his excuses go with him?

NorCalBronco7
05-18-2011, 06:08 PM
If Orton gets traded do his excuses go with him?

Here comes Chaz from left field with another post lacking substance.

Standard play.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 06:15 PM
If Orton gets traded do his excuses go with him?
:confused:
has orton ever used any?

LawDog
05-18-2011, 06:25 PM
Where the hell YOU been? :beer:

Locking up illegal aliens... or playing piano in a bordello, your choice.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 06:25 PM
Clearly it isn't just because Orton is more tradable. If they didn't/don't think Tebow is a long term solution, they aren't about to trade Orton for a second or something, only to piss away a year with Tebow at QB. They only trade Orton if they think Tebow or Quinn either gives them a better chance to win now, or is the long term answer and needs to be developed.

There is no way they trade Orton simply because he would bring a little more value (up for debate) now).

Surely you don't think that if Orton was traded it would simply be because he is the better QB (more polished, can play under center, etc.) and therefore would bring more in a trade.

You used "simply" twice and "just because" in reference to what I wrote. I do
not remember using those terms. Would you be so kind as to point out where I
used them?

It is true that I stated what I believe may be the case - or, more appropriately
one of the factors (which I should have made more clear) - but I never stated
it as fact. But I don't believe I said that would be the only reason, did I?


P.S. I do remember a couple places where I said, "I may be wrong . . . "

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rcsodak
05-18-2011, 06:26 PM
Locking up illegal aliens... or playing piano in a bordello, your choice.LMAO. Well, missed ya, nonetheless....Mr PianoMan. :lol:

LawDog
05-18-2011, 06:34 PM
LMAO. Well, missed ya, nonetheless....Mr PianoMan. :lol:

Thanks, I will be around more once (if) the season gets to going...

Tned
05-18-2011, 06:39 PM
You used "simply" twice and "just because" in reference to what I wrote. I do
not remember using those terms. Would you be so kind as to point out where I
used them?

I had already qualified my statements in an earlier post, saying that I am only
trying to point out different scenarios. Do I have to include that qualification
with every single post? Seems as if that would be a lot of keystrokes, as
opposed to "simply" understanding it.

It is true that I stated what I believe may be the case, but I never stated it
as fact. But I don't believe I said that would be the only reason, did I?


P.S. I do remember a couple places where I said, "I may be wrong . . . "

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I'm not going to play the armchair lawyer, word parsing game with you. I'll just let my post stand.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 06:42 PM
I'm not going to play the armchair lawyer, word parsing game with you. I'll just let my post stand.

I see. I'm only trying to participate in a mature discussion. It was indeed
enjoyable . . . until now . . .

BTW, I edited my post for clarity.

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TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 06:45 PM
I'm not going to play the armchair lawyer, word parsing game with you. I'll just let my post stand.

I'm sure what you said that seemed to strike a nerve. :whoknows:

topscribe
05-18-2011, 06:47 PM
I'm sure what you said that seemed to strike a nerve. :whoknows:

Well, since you opened the gate, he's good at that sometimes . . . :coffee:

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Tned
05-18-2011, 06:50 PM
I'm mobile so can't check what miami's spot was last year, but fututes are generally considered #16, point wise, if I remember correctly. What did it turn out to be this year?

Looks like 11th pick in 2nd round in 2010 and 14th in 2nd round in 2011.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 06:50 PM
Well, since you opened the gate, he's good at that sometimes . . . :coffee:

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Maybe so but it wasn't with that post.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 06:50 PM
Maybe so but it wasn't with that post.

Maybe it seems that way to you because you weren't involved.

Until you decided to impose, that is . . .

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TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 06:53 PM
Maybe it seems that way to you because you weren't involved.

Until you decided to impose, that is . . .

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That's very hypocritical of you.

Tned
05-18-2011, 06:53 PM
Well, since you opened the gate, he's good at that sometimes . . . :coffee:

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I see. I'm only trying to participate in a mature discussion. It was indeed
enjoyable . . . until now . . .

BTW, I edited my post for clarity.

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Any more digs or are you done for now?

topscribe
05-18-2011, 06:55 PM
Okay, this was a very enjoyable discussion.

I'm outta here . . .

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nevcraw
05-18-2011, 06:59 PM
Actually, on the road he was 76.4, at home 99.0, against AFC teams 89.5, against NFC teams 87.9, in winning games 114.2, in losing efforts 78.6, when scoring 20 or more points 105.0, when scoring 19 or less points 75.5...

3rd down %? 4th quarter %? wins / losses?

Orton's inflated stats in a pass happy O while playing from behind and getting continually bailed out by a amazig lloyd and marshall last year, are all fine and well but not very telling about his aility to lead a team out of mediocrity..
we need a guy who is going to make everyone around him better, create things out of nothing and deliver wins even when it looks unlikely.. Does that sound like Orton?

he does make a great backup though..

topscribe
05-18-2011, 07:00 PM
Any more digs or are you done for now?

Nope. I'll close with that . . .

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Northman
05-18-2011, 07:06 PM
Ahh, what a wonderful day at Broncosforums.....lol

LawDog
05-18-2011, 07:10 PM
True, but I believe the issue would center on Orton. I believe he would have the
higher trade value. He is experienced and polished, can play under center, and
does not have accuracy issues, all which experts have mentioned regarding
Tebow. Tebow is still a project, whereas Orton is "turn key" -- he can play NOW.
Not that Tebow can't, but Orton has proven that, whereas Tebow has yet
largely to prove it.

Which is also why, incidentally, Kolb may well end up a "Plan B" to Orton, for the
same reasons, IMO . . .

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I don't think it is a matter of "can trade," but rather "might trade." Under that assumption you've got: 1) a known entity in Orton -- skills good, bad or indifferent -- that either fits your plans completely or only partially; and 2) an unknown -- raw skills yet to be developed but with interesting potential -- that might fit your plans. Ideally, you wouldn't consider trading the known until you have a good handle on what the unknown is likely to develop into. Problem is, the longer you wait, the messier it becomes because the best value is going to come early on. Coupled with the CBA/Lockout drama, the team really isn't able to evaluate where both players are in terms of current skill sets, current offensive scheme, current coaching staff, etc. Unless there is a resolution to the labor dispute before the end of June, my money is on Orton remaining on the roster and likely getting the start in week 1. What happens as the season progresses is another matter completely - especially if the backups have stepped up game prep as Elway has indicated will be happening.

In sum, I don't think there is any way the team even considers trading Tebow (at least for this year) because they just don't know what they've got in him. Put him in the "no" column of "might trade." Orton on the other hand has to be in the "yes" column, but it's "might trade" because there is a lot the team would need to know before pulling the trigger on a trade and I just don't think they will have had the time to get that info this year. That seems to be in line with Elway's response that it is tough to know whether Kyle will be around or not.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 07:17 PM
I don't think it is a matter of "can trade," but rather "might trade." Under that assumption you've got: 1) a known entity in Orton -- skills good, bad or indifferent -- that either fits your plans completely or only partially; and 2) an unknown -- raw skills yet to be developed but with interesting potential -- that might fit your plans. Ideally, you wouldn't consider trading the known until you have a good handle on what the unknown is likely to develop into. Problem is, the longer you wait, the messier it becomes because the best value is going to come early on. Coupled with the CBA/Lockout drama, the team really isn't able to evaluate where both players are in terms of current skill sets, current offensive scheme, current coaching staff, etc. Unless there is a resolution to the labor dispute before the end of June, my money is on Orton remaining on the roster and likely getting the start in week 1. What happens as the season progresses is another matter completely - especially if the backups have stepped up game prep as Elway has indicated will be happening.

In sum, I don't think there is any way the team even considers trading Tebow (at least for this year) because they just don't know what they've got in him. Put him in the "no" column of "might trade." Orton on the other hand has to be in the "yes" column, but it's "might trade" because there is a lot the team would need to know before pulling the trigger on a trade and I just don't think they will have had the time to get that info this year. That seems to be in line with Elway's response that it is tough to know whether Kyle will be around or not.

I really hope you stick around for a while, Lawdog. You can disagree and act
like an adult at the same time. Kudos. :beer:

Thank you for helping add some factors to what I was trying to say. I, too,
now expect Orton to stay. Had they been able to start camp and begin to
take a look at how Tebow has progressed, then it might have been different.
And I agree there is no way Tebow is going anywhere at this time . . .

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LawDog
05-18-2011, 07:17 PM
3rd down %? 4th quarter %? wins / losses?

Orton's inflated stats in a pass happy O while playing from behind and getting continually bailed out by a amazig lloyd and marshall last year, are all fine and well but not very telling about his aility to lead a team out of mediocrity..
we need a guy who is going to make everyone around him better, create things out of nothing and deliver wins even when it looks unlikely.. Does that sound like Orton?

he does make a great backup though..

Well my train of thought was something like, the author of the original article is making a pretty shaky prediction of who Miami should pick up based solely on a threshold QB rating, because stats can mean so many different things. Then I saw Top's qualification that Orton's QBR was even higher if you lop off his bottom two games where he underperformed (some would say due to injury :) ). My response then was to just throw out some additional situational stats to see what would stick.

LawDog
05-18-2011, 07:19 PM
I really hope you stick around for a while, Lawdog. You can disagree and act
like an adult at the same time. Kudos. :beer:

Thank you for helping add some factors to what I was trying to say. I, too,
now expect Orton to stay. Had they been able to start camp and begin to
take a look at how Tebow has progressed, then it might have been different.
And I agree there is no way Tebow is going anywhere at this time . . .

-----

As time allows Top... and I left my petulance card at home today so you got stuck with adult. Sorry about that.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Looks like 11th pick in 2nd round in 2010 and 14th in 2nd round in 2011.
cool. Minutely better than expected, then.
I imagine the two of them was close to, if not, a 1st.

Tned
05-18-2011, 07:30 PM
cool. Minutely better than expected, then.
I imagine the two of them was close to, if not, a 1st.

The first one was used to move up and draft Tebow, which was important with such a huge hole to fill at QB.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 07:31 PM
3rd down %? 4th quarter %? wins / losses?

Orton's inflated stats in a pass happy O while playing from behind and getting continually bailed out by a amazig lloyd and marshall last year, are all fine and well but not very telling about his aility to lead a team out of mediocrity..
we need a guy who is going to make everyone around him better, create things out of nothing and deliver wins even when it looks unlikely.. Does that sound like Orton?

he does make a great backup though..
No run game. No OL. No pass catching TE. No D.

Orton did as good as most anybody could have.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 07:36 PM
I would take Marc Bulger for Tebow's back up. Trade Orton for a stud DT or Defensive Back.

Assuming Orton is traded I'm not sure Bulger would be good choice. He took awful beating when he was St. Louis.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 07:36 PM
The first one was used to move up and draft Tebow, which was important with such a huge hole to fill at QB.
Huge hole, huh?

And yet....its supposedly still there....huh. ;)

nevcraw
05-18-2011, 07:37 PM
No run game. No OL. No pass catching TE. No D.

Orton did as good as most anybody could have.


So now Orton is as good as anybody? :cool:

chazoe60
05-18-2011, 07:38 PM
No run game. No OL. No pass catching TE. No D.

Orton did as good as most anybody could have.

See those are tue excuses I was talking about. Orton was part of our shitty record. We weren't shitty in spite of him or because of him. We were shitty with him. He has blame in our record just like the rest of the players. He's the QB so his scrutiny is more intense, but that goes with the big money and hot chicks.

robert ethan
05-18-2011, 07:38 PM
By draft value chart, the two picks they got for Marshall works out to a little more than the #18 pick of the first round. Between #18 and #17 overall. Heck of a deal even if Marshall wasn't a perpetual headache.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 07:41 PM
So now Orton is as good as anybody? :cool:
Just for you, craw, I made sure to add "most"......

Tned
05-18-2011, 07:41 PM
By draft value chart, the two picks they got for Marshall works out to a little more than the #18 pick of the first round. Between #18 and #17 overall. Heck of a deal even if Marshall wasn't a perpetual headache.

Are you properly discounting the 2011 pick as it was a future pick?

nevcraw
05-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Just for you, craw, I made sure to add "most"......

thanks dak!!

hmm.. that sounds a lot like..well.. u know..

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 07:55 PM
See those are tue excuses I was talking about. Orton was part of our shitty record. We weren't shitty in spite of him or because of him. We were shitty with him. He has blame in our record just like the rest of the players. He's the QB so his scrutiny is more intense, but that goes with the big money and hot chicks.
Where, in my post, did I impart he played NO part?
And are reasons only excuses when they fly in the face of impartiality?
I simply stated facts.
Elway himself said having a D takes pressure off the qb from thinking he has to score 34pts.

Tell me how a pass catching TE doesn't help a qb.
A young/injured OL that can't open holes for the rb/give the qb time to look downfield isn't a detriment to 3rd downs/TD's?

Orton is not as bad as most of you portray him to be. Nor is he a world beater that 1 or 2 think.

But on this current team, he IS the one qb with the fewest worts, and was one of only a handful of players that has played his ass off the last 2 years.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 07:58 PM
By draft value chart, the two picks they got for Marshall works out to a little more than the #18 pick of the first round. Between #18 and #17 overall. Heck of a deal even if Marshall wasn't a perpetual headache.
That's what I was thinking, but wasn't for certain. And I agree. So much for mcd ruining his value'.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 08:03 PM
Are you properly discounting the 2011 pick as it was a future pick?why? Did it not actually happen?
Sure, it woulda been nice to get a 1, but that's only 1 player (and jerry jones already had his guy). Since when is 2 top 36 players a bad deal? Where was bm drafted again?

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 08:04 PM
thanks dak!!

hmm.. that sounds a lot like..well.. u know..
:rolleyes:

Tned
05-18-2011, 08:07 PM
why? Did it not actually happen?
Sure, it woulda been nice to get a 1, but that's only 1 player (and jerry jones already had his guy). Since when is 2 top 36 players a bad deal? Where was bm drafted again?

When you get a 'future draft pick, the chart value is discounted. Something like a 2nd round pick next year is equal to 3rd this year.

Tned
05-18-2011, 08:11 PM
Where was bm drafted again?

How many players in NFL history have had three straight 100 reception seasons?

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 08:15 PM
When you get a 'future draft pick, the chart value is discounted. Something like a 2nd round pick next year is equal to 3rd this year.

Yeah? I bet that pisses belicek off.
So.......who did they grab last year with that imaginary 3rd? :confused: And can he play DT?

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 08:16 PM
How many players in NFL history have had three straight 100 reception seasons?
Are you just interested in personal accomplishments, T? I see a guy on 3 losing teams. :shrugs:

Tned
05-18-2011, 08:19 PM
Yeah? I bet that pisses belicek off.
So.......who did they grab last year with that imaginary 3rd? :confused: And can he play DT?

You brought up the chart value, I was just pointing out how they value future picks. It's not my chart or rules.

Tned
05-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Are you just interested in personal accomplishments, T? I see a guy on 3 losing teams. :shrugs:

RC, you pointed out where he was drafted as a means to show how great the two seconds were. I pointed out how he's one of the only players in NFL history with three straight 100 reception seasons. Those stats are far more relevant than where he was drafted.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 09:06 PM
RC, you pointed out where he was drafted as a means to show how great the two seconds were. I pointed out how he's one of the only players in NFL history with three straight 100 reception seasons. Those stats are far more relevant than where he was drafted.

And they still didn't help the team win. So my last point, was aimed at I'd rather get picks and hope to find a team player that helps the team win. Nothing more. Nothing less. ;)

Tned
05-18-2011, 09:14 PM
And they still didn't help the team win. So my last point, was aimed at I'd rather get picks and hope to find a team player that helps the team win. Nothing more. Nothing less. ;)

Fair point. That said, you must agree that the way things went down the final week of the season, with McDaniels accusing Marshall of faking an injury (which virtually all ex-player media types said was virtually unheard of and wrong to do) could have done nothing but hurt the value the Broncos got in return for Marshall.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 09:18 PM
Fair point. That said, you must agree that the way things went down the final week of the season, with McDaniels accusing Marshall of faking an injury (which virtually all ex-player media types said was virtually unheard of and wrong to do) could have done nothing but hurt the value the Broncos got in return for Marshall.

It sure couldn't have helped.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 09:20 PM
Fair point. That said, you must agree that the way things went down the final week of the season, with McDaniels accusing Marshall of faking an injury (which virtually all ex-player media types said was virtually unheard of and wrong to do) could have done nothing but hurt the value the Broncos got in return for Marshall.

Nope. Bm made his own bed, T. I think we would've heard, from SOMEWHERE, if that had happened. I honestly think they got max value for the likeable moron.

BroncoStud
05-18-2011, 09:25 PM
Anytime "Orton" and "best" are written in the same sentence it's pretty obvious that the QBs available are junk. 5 years ago there is no doubt, Palmer is hands down a better QB than Orton, but now Palmer is so banged up and so gunshy that it's close.

If I'm a team I still want Kolb first, as he is simply a better athlete than Orton and he has shown he can play well, but NO WAY I give up a 1st rounder for him. If you just want a stopgap QB then Orton might come cheap enough to make it worth your time.

Just close your eyes and pray on 3rd down and in the redzone.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 09:37 PM
Nope. Bm made his own bed, T. I think we would've hear, from SOMEWHERE, if that had happened. I honestlybthink they got max value for the likeable moron.

No there's no way that what McDaniels did didn't have an effect on his value.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 09:47 PM
It sure couldn't have helped.
If a team, miami, wanted him, and was not going to give more than they did, how do you know 'it couldn't have helped'?
Sometimes, it just is what it is.

He wasn't/isn't a world beater. He's not jerry rice.

I'm still waiting for somebody to give his catches w/in 5yds +/- of the LOS.

And how did this thread become about bm?
:confused:

Tned
05-18-2011, 09:52 PM
Nope. Bm made his own bed, T. I think we would've hear, from SOMEWHERE, if that had happened. I honestlybthink they got max value for the likeable moron.

There is no way to know for sure if it hurt his value, but I'm sure you would agree that at 'best' it had no effect on his value, but it could very well have hurt his value, because it showed him as a quitter and made it clear that McDaniels wasn't going to have him back on his team.

It's akin to an NBA player demanding a trade publicly, which typically hampers the GM's ability to get top value, because the other teams knows the GM is over a barrel.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 09:55 PM
No there's no way that what McDaniels did didn't have an effect on his value.
in your opinion

chazoe60
05-18-2011, 09:57 PM
Where, in my post, did I impart he played NO part?
And are reasons only excuses when they fly in the face of impartiality?
I simply stated facts.
Elway himself said having a D takes pressure off the qb from thinking he has to score 34pts.

Tell me how a pass catching TE doesn't help a qb.
A young/injured OL that can't open holes for the rb/give the qb time to look downfield isn't a detriment to 3rd downs/TD's?

Orton is not as bad as most of you portray him to be. Nor is he a world beater that 1 or 2 think.

But on this current team, he IS the one qb with the fewest worts, and was one of only a handful of players that has played his ass off the last 2 years.

You see, that's the one thing I take exception to. I've heard this over and over again, in fact arguing against this point with the wrong people over at the other joint ended up getting me banned, but I don't see it that way at all. I see a guy who rarely takes a risk and a guy who has on multiple occasions just fell down rather than take a hit. Sorry, but I don't see that as playing his ass off. I also see his warts as being much more detrimental to this franchise in the long run, especially his absolute failure on all the money situations for QBs (3rd down, RZ, and the end of close games).

I just want better than what I think Orton is ever going to be able to do. Tebow may not be the guy, but in my mind I know Kyle isn't, so I wanna at least see if Tebow is. To me sticking with Orton is just a waste, but as I said in another thread, this is just one fan's opinion it really doesn't mean shit, just like yours doesn't.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 10:00 PM
There is no way to know for sure if it hurt his value, but I'm sure you would agree that at 'best' it had no effect on his value, but it could very well have hurt his value, because it showed him as a quitter and made it clear that McDaniels wasn't going to have him back on his team.

It's akin to an NBA player demanding a trade publicly, which typically hampers the GM's ability to get top value, because the other teams knows the GM is over a barrel.

Like you said we'll never know for sure if it had an effect on Marshall's value. But to me it just seems unlikely that it didn't.

Tned
05-18-2011, 10:02 PM
in your opinion

I just got a laugh out of this. In the show "The Good Wife", there is one judge that requires the laywers to say, "in my opinion" before every piece of evidence or fact/statement they introduce, and if they don't, the judge will say, "Is that, in your opinion?" :lol:

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:03 PM
There is no way to know for sure if it hurt his value, but I'm sure you would agree that at 'best' it had no effect on his value, but it could very well have hurt his value, because it showed him as a quitter and made it clear that McDaniels wasn't going to have him back on his team.

It's akin to an NBA player demanding a trade publicly, which typically hampers the GM's ability to get top value, because the other teams knows the GM is over a barrel.

I think what you're trying to say is akin to nobody seeing his mug in the news, in the papers, or on tv, for every one of his 'discrepencies'. And that's just unrealistic, T.

He is what he is. And getting benched played little part, imo, in his value. He had a 5+ yr history that one game couldn't besmudge, imo. Im sure any gm that wanted him bad enough could easily come up with reasons/excuses for that.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 10:07 PM
in your opinion

Yes just like what you've said is your opinion.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:11 PM
You see, that's the one thing I take exception to. I've heard this over and over again, in fact arguing against this point with the wrong people over at the other joint ended up getting me banned, but I don't see it that way at all. I see a guy who rarely takes a risk and a guy who has on multiple occasions just fell down rather than take a hit. Sorry, but I don't see that as playing his ass off. I also see his warts as being much more detrimental to this franchise in the long run, especially his absolute failure on all the money situations for QBs (3rd down, RZ, and the end of close games).

I just want better than what I think Orton is ever going to be able to do. Tebow may not be the guy, but in my mind I know Kyle isn't, so I wanna at least see if Tebow is. To me sticking with Orton is just a waste, but as I said in another thread, this is just one fan's opinion it really doesn't mean shit, just like yours doesn't.
Fair enough. But let me ask you.
Since we all know now, that mcd didnt have his backup qb's practicing, do you think it wise foe orton to take beatings when unnecessary? Can you impart SOME love for the guy, knowing he knew he neeced to stay healthy to give them ANY HOPE?
Another thing. Favre was called mature for FINALLY giving up sacks vs his old ways of trying for the miracles/throwing int's. He learned there Can be another play.
Shouldn't that also pertain to orton?

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:12 PM
I just got a laugh out of this. In the show "The Good Wife", there is one judge that requires the laywers to say, "in my opinion" before every piece of evidence or fact/statement they introduce, and if they don't, the judge will say, "Is that, in your opinion?" :lol:
Isn't that a chick show?

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:15 PM
Yes just like what you've said is your opinion.
I just try not to make my posts so 'matter of fact'.
Everythings open to interpretation, afterall.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 10:20 PM
I just try not to make my posts so 'matter of fact'.
Everythings open to interpretation, afterall.

Honestly your posts come across as matter of fact.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:24 PM
Honestly your posts come across as matter of fact.
In you opinion

topscribe
05-18-2011, 10:25 PM
Anytime "Orton" and "best" are written in the same sentence it's pretty obvious that the QBs available are junk. 5 years ago there is no doubt, Palmer is hands down a better QB than Orton, but now Palmer is so banged up and so gunshy that it's close.

If I'm a team I still want Kolb first, as he is simply a better athlete than Orton and he has shown he can play well, but NO WAY I give up a 1st rounder for him. If you just want a stopgap QB then Orton might come cheap enough to make it worth your time.

Just close your eyes and pray on 3rd down and in the redzone.

I see. So excuses are allowed, provided the name isn't Orton.

Gotcha. :coffee:

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TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 10:28 PM
In you opinion

Yes and that works both ways does it not?

chazoe60
05-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Fair enough. But let me ask you.
Since we all know now, that mcd didnt have his backup qb's practicing, do you think it wise foe orton to take beatings when unnecessary? Can you impart SOME love for the guy, knowing he knew he neeced to stay healthy to give them ANY HOPE?
Another thing. Favre was called mature for FINALLY giving up sacks vs his old ways of trying for the miracles/throwing int's. He learned there Can be another play.
Shouldn't that also pertain to orton?

I'll be honest, and I've freely admitted it many times before: I put too much on the QB. Call it a product of growing up watching the greatest QB ever, but I expect more from the QB.

Elway wasn't really great from a statistical standpoint. His best TD season was what 27? His yards Per season was not great. He threw a ton of picks. But, despite all that when the game was on the line he inspired supreme confidence every time. I knew he was going to come through. I don't ever get that feeling from Orton, ever. I can't help it, it's just how I feel watching him, hopeless.

The few times he has orchestrated a comeback for us it has been fluky or more to do with the great plays of others. I have never once thought to myself "thank goodness we have Orton in this situation". I want someone who gives me hope for a win at the end not someone who makes me feel like we have no shot.

You see Orton as adequate but not great, at least that's the impression I get. Top sees Orton as good with a chance to be great if given a fair opportunity. And I see him as mediocre and extremely limited. We all watch the games with our own biases and perceptions. It doesn't make any of us dumber or lesser fans.

In the end we just want the stupid Denver Broncos to win some mother ******* games. Dammit, just win. If Orton wins games for us next season yoh can bet your ass I'll be here saying how wrong I was. It's no skin off my nose, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Just end the mediocrity, one way or another.

topscribe
05-18-2011, 10:43 PM
I'll be honest, and I've freely admitted it many times before: I put too much on the QB. Call it a product of growing up watching the greatest QB ever, but I expect more from the QB.

Elway wasn't really great from a statistical standpoint. His best TD season was what 27? His yards Per season was not great. He threw a ton of picks. But, despite all that when the game was on the line he inspired supreme confidence every time. I knew he was going to come through. I don't ever get that feeling from Orton, ever. I can't help it, it's just how I feel watching him, hopeless.

The few times he has orchestrated a comeback for us it has been fluky or more to do with the great plays of others. I have never once thought to myself "thank goodness we have Orton in this situation". I want someone who gives me hope for a win at the end not someone who makes me feel like we have no shot.

You see Orton as adequate but not great, at least that's the impression I get. Top sees Orton as good with a chance to be great if given a fair opportunity. And I see him as mediocre and extremely limited. We all watch the games with our own biases and perceptions. It doesn't make any of us dumber or lesser fans.

In the end we just want the stupid Denver Broncos to win some mother ******* games. Dammit, just win. If Orton wins games for us next season yoh can bet your ass I'll be here saying how wrong I was. It's no skin off my nose, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Just end the mediocrity, one way or another.

I understand, Chaz. I was wrong once . . .







I thought I had made a mistake . . .



-----

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:44 PM
Yes and that works both ways does it not?
I doubt anybody uses the 'imo' /'imho' more than I do, tx.

Reread your first post I mentionesd 'opinion' on. Tell me that doesn't come across as matter of fact.

Good grief. Can you make this a bigger deal than it is? :rolleyes:

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 10:46 PM
I'll be honest, and I've freely admitted it many times before: I put too much on the QB. Call it a product of growing up watching the greatest QB ever, but I expect more from the QB.

Elway wasn't really great from a statistical standpoint. His best TD season was what 27? His yards Per season was not great. He threw a ton of picks. But, despite all that when the game was on the line he inspired supreme confidence every time. I knew he was going to come through. I don't ever get that feeling from Orton, ever. I can't help it, it's just how I feel watching him, hopeless.

The few times he has orchestrated a comeback for us it has been fluky or more to do with the great plays of others. I have never once thought to myself "thank goodness we have Orton in this situation". I want someone who gives me hope for a win at the end not someone who makes me feel like we have no shot.

You see Orton as adequate but not great, at least that's the impression I get. Top sees Orton as good with a chance to be great if given a fair opportunity. And I see him as mediocre and extremely limited. We all watch the games with our own biases and perceptions. It doesn't make any of us dumber or lesser fans.

In the end we just want the stupid Denver Broncos to win some mother ******* games. Dammit, just win. If Orton wins games for us next season yoh can bet your ass I'll be here saying how wrong I was. It's no skin off my nose, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Just end the mediocrity, one way or another.

:beer:

Go Broncos!

Tned
05-18-2011, 11:07 PM
Isn't that a chick show?

I like to keep in touch with my feminine side...


I think what you're trying to say is akin to nobody seeing his mug in the news, in the papers, or on tv, for every one of his 'discrepencies'. And that's just unrealistic, T.

He is what he is. And getting benched played little part, imo, in his value. He had a 5+ yr history that one game couldn't besmudge, imo. Im sure any gm that wanted him bad enough could easily come up with reasons/excuses for that.

The difference is that with the exception of McDaniels getting into the pissing contest with him at training camp, none of those 'discrepancies' were on the field. On the field, he simply performed.

I'll be honest, but for a clear disdain for BM (which I can understand due to his off-field behavior) and defense of McDaniels (as you have been known to do), I can't see how you can state that McDaniels' actions at the end of the season could have done anything but hurt his trade value. :confused:

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 11:13 PM
I like to keep in touch with my feminine side...



The difference is that with the exception of McDaniels getting into the pissing contest with him at training camp, none of those 'discrepancies' were on the field. On the field, he simply performed.

I'll be honest, but for a clear disdain for BM (which I can understand due to his off-field behavior) and defense of McDaniels (as you have been known to do), I can't see how you can state that McDaniels' actions at the end of the season could have done anything but hurt his trade value. :confused:
That's why i'm unique. ;)

WARHORSE
05-18-2011, 11:42 PM
Asked whether Tebow or Orton would both be on the roster, etc, Elway speaks to the uncertainty of Orton..................I think thats simply because of Ortons contract situation. He obviously has some value, and its to our benefit that Orton had his best two years here.

That could convince some team that hes starting to click.

Hes more than enough, on the right team, to win.

Those teams to me would be Minnesota. Tenn. Miami. Arizona. San Fran. Seattle.

The focus would be Seattle, Arizona and Miami.

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 12:09 AM
Asked whether Tebow or Orton would both be on the roster, etc, Elway speaks to the uncertainty of Orton..................I think thats simply because of Ortons contract situation. He obviously has some value, and its to our benefit that Orton had his best two years here.

That could convince some team that hes starting to click.

Hes more than enough, on the right team, to win.

Those teams to me would be Minnesota. Tenn. Miami. Arizona. San Fran. Seattle.

The focus would be Seattle, Arizona and Miami.

Geesh. Leave it to war to remain on topic. :rolleyes:

BroncoStud
05-19-2011, 01:20 AM
I see. So excuses are allowed, provided the name isn't Orton.

Gotcha. :coffee:

-----

What excuses? Palmer is done, IMO. Who knows, maybe he just needs a change of scenery, but his play has fallen greatly since Kitna left and he started racking up injuries. He's just not the QB he looked like he was going to become.

Orton is Orton. So, at this point, it's pretty close as to who is the better QB. Just watching the Bengals play makes Palmer look like damaged goods.

WARHORSE
05-19-2011, 04:45 AM
Geesh. Leave it to war to remain on topic. :rolleyes:

Being in the last year of his contract, Elway and the boys have to consider the fact that if he stays here we lose.

If he stays here and plays poorly, we get nothing in return.

If he stays here and plays well, is he gonna play so well we franchise him?

Sign him to a big time contract?

I dont think so.

If not, he walks away and we get nothing.


So, why keep him around if he will not pay off in the end no matter what?


Goodbye Kyle. :D

Lonestar
05-19-2011, 08:01 AM
Elway and Fox said they weren't sure a Franchise QB was on the roster. That
was very telling to me . . . they seem very uncomfortable at the moment with
what they have. However, there doesn't seem much they can do about it now,
except go with what they have and let the best of the three rise to the top.

It would just seem to me that any kind of trade involving either Orton or Tebow
would leave a big hole. I may be wrong, but it just seems a little too late to
entertain a trade at this point . . .

-----

There are probably ten true franchise QBs in the NFL. The rest are not true FQB. Good solid guys but could be upgraded if there were more around. Or in some cases just not surrounded by the right players or ina lousy scheme or coaching staff. there are very few QBs that can carry the team.

And some FQBs like rivers that without all that talent around them would be good but not great.

So IMHO there are probably ten to fifteen HC out there that are in the same boat we are no proven FQB and looking to upgrade.

Sounds to me that Mia would be a damned good fit for Orton. Who just might be their new FQB.

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 09:08 AM
There are probably ten true franchise QBs in the NFL. The rest are not true FQB. Good solid guys but could be upgraded if there were more around. Or in some cases just not surrounded by the right players or ina lousy scheme or coaching staff. there are very few QBs that can carry the team.

And some FQBs like rivers that without all that talent around them would be good but not great.

So IMHO there are probably ten to fifteen HC out there that are in the same boat we are no proven FQB and looking to upgrade.

Sounds to me that Mia would be a damned good fit for Orton. Who just might be their new FQB.

Wash/Mia/Az/SF/Sea. Would all be good fits, I think.
Ultimately, though, I don't see the FO trading him just to trade him. Its up to TT/BQ to force the trade.
I just can't see Fox coming to a new organization intent on forsaking wins just to get younger....again.

vettesplus
05-19-2011, 09:15 AM
my ?? to all? if we get rid of orton, who is going to qb the broncos???? tebow:behindsofa:???

topscribe
05-19-2011, 09:19 AM
There are probably ten true franchise QBs in the NFL. The rest are not true FQB. Good solid guys but could be upgraded if there were more around. Or in some cases just not surrounded by the right players or ina lousy scheme or coaching staff. there are very few QBs that can carry the team.

And some FQBs like rivers that without all that talent around them would be good but not great.

So IMHO there are probably ten to fifteen HC out there that are in the same boat we are no proven FQB and looking to upgrade.

Sounds to me that Mia would be a damned good fit for Orton. Who just might be their new FQB.

Might be. All I am saying is that they better make sure they have a QB here
before shipping Orton off to that good fit. As Elway implied, they have a good
football player in Tebow, but do they have a good QB?

I think they know that, though. There are analysts out there who are still
wondering about that. I just don't see them shipping Orton off until they get
a chance of finding out just what they have. That is why the prospects of a
trade are becoming increasingly unlikely as the lockout wears on.

-----

BroncoStud
05-19-2011, 09:50 AM
Might be. All I am saying is that they better make sure they have a QB here
before shipping Orton off to that good fit. As Elway implied, they have a good
football player in Tebow, but do they have a good QB?

I think they know that, though. There are analysts out there who are still
wondering about that. I just don't see them shipping Orton off until they get
a chance of finding out just what they have.That is why the prospects of a
trade are becoming increasingly unlikely as the lockout wears on.

-----

Orton only has trade value THIS year. If we wait he simply walks. Now is the time to get a good draft pick for him or possibly a player in exchange. He isn't the answer and the fans are already onboard with Tebow-mania. Every incomplete, every failed 3rd down, every missed TD, every time Orton dropped his head on the sideline, the fans would boo, the media would talk, an the pressure would mount.

This is a lose-lose for Orton to stay in Denver. If he stays as the starter he is under the microscope knowing he has to be damn near perfect to keep his job before the fans revolt, just as the front office is trying to connect with the fans like never before.

If he remains in Denver as the backup he is missing precious opportunity somewhere else plus Denver doesn't get value for him from a trade.

To me at least, it's obvious that Orton is a goner, for the better of all parties involved. Tebow or not, the franchise isn't likely to move forward with Orton and there are teams who understand he is a stopgap starter who do not have a guy like Tebow on the roster who will challenge him on every snap for playing time. Orton has proven that pressure is not his friend.

topscribe
05-19-2011, 10:35 AM
Orton only has trade value THIS year. If we wait he simply walks. Now is the time to get a good draft pick for him or possibly a player in exchange. He isn't the answer and the fans are already onboard with Tebow-mania. Every incomplete, every failed 3rd down, every missed TD, every time Orton dropped his head on the sideline, the fans would boo, the media would talk, an the pressure would mount.

This is a lose-lose for Orton to stay in Denver. If he stays as the starter he is under the microscope knowing he has to be damn near perfect to keep his job before the fans revolt, just as the front office is trying to connect with the fans like never before.

If he remains in Denver as the backup he is missing precious opportunity somewhere else plus Denver doesn't get value for him from a trade.

To me at least, it's obvious that Orton is a goner, for the better of all parties involved. Tebow or not, the franchise isn't likely to move forward with Orton and there are teams who understand he is a stopgap starter who do not have a guy like Tebow on the roster who will challenge him on every snap for playing time. Orton has proven that pressure is not his friend.

Of course, even though you presented all this as fact, it all is only your
opinion, and I thoroughly disagree with just about all of it. Since we've been
over and over and over it, I'll just leave it at that . . .

-----

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 10:48 AM
Denver could use another rb. Some suggested they draft one. They didn't.
Az has a relatively young stable of rb's and needs a qb. They drafted a rb relatively early.
Coincidences?

TXBRONC
05-19-2011, 11:07 AM
Orton only has trade value THIS year. If we wait he simply walks. Now is the time to get a good draft pick for him or possibly a player in exchange. He isn't the answer and the fans are already onboard with Tebow-mania. Every incomplete, every failed 3rd down, every missed TD, every time Orton dropped his head on the sideline, the fans would boo, the media would talk, an the pressure would mount.

This is a lose-lose for Orton to stay in Denver. If he stays as the starter he is under the microscope knowing he has to be damn near perfect to keep his job before the fans revolt, just as the front office is trying to connect with the fans like never before.

If he remains in Denver as the backup he is missing precious opportunity somewhere else plus Denver doesn't get value for him from a trade.

To me at least, it's obvious that Orton is a goner, for the better of all parties involved. Tebow or not, the franchise isn't likely to move forward with Orton and there are teams who understand he is a stopgap starter who do not have a guy like Tebow on the roster who will challenge him on every snap for playing time. Orton has proven that pressure is not his friend.

As I've said on many occassions I think timing is an issue. If this lockout gets to a point where there is only a couple of weeks to prepare then I doubt Orton is shipped out. He would open as the starter in that situation but that doesn't by any stretch mean that he would remain the starter for the entire year.

That said I don't buy into notion that they don't know what they have Orton. He's been a starter for four out of seven years the last two being in Denver. On top of that there isn't going be a change in offensive coordinator. I find it curious that with Orton being the starter for 28 out 32 games Elway and Fox both haven't given a full endorsement to him.

robert ethan
05-19-2011, 11:22 AM
With the draft having come and gone, and the lockout dragging on, it seems like the market for veteran quarterbacks has pretty much dried up. There were six taken in the top 30 odd picks of the draft. Most of those teams are going to want to give those prospects a good look before committing to an expensive veteran from another team. Then you have the problem of learning a new playbook with very little time to prepare. It makes a veteran already on the team seem like a better option than bringing in a new guy who won't have time to learn the system before the season starts. They may end up keeping Orton simply because there will be no worthwhile offers coming.

BroncoStud
05-19-2011, 12:12 PM
Of course, even though you presented all this as fact, it all is only your
opinion, and I thoroughly disagree with just about all of it. Since we've been
over and over and over it, I'll just leave it at that . . .

-----

Yeah, I think we've discussed it once or twice. But I did state "to me at least, it's obvious that Orton is a goner..." which implies that it is a belief that I possess, not everyone else.

I also happen to believe that Marxism is bad for free markets and the personal freedoms of the American people, but many don't share that opinion either, but I feel I'm right on both counts.

:beer:

Lonestar
05-19-2011, 12:12 PM
Being in the last year of his contract, Elway and the boys have to consider the fact that if he stays here we lose.
If he stays here and plays poorly, we get nothing in return.
If he stays here and plays well, is he gonna play so well we franchise him?
Sign him to a big time contract?
I dont think so.If not, he walks away and we get nothing.
So, why keep him around if he will not pay off in the end no matter what?
Goodbye Kyle. :D

Most logical, least hateful, best post of the thread. :salute:

Lonestar
05-19-2011, 12:19 PM
Wash/Mia/Az/SF/Sea. Would all be good fits, I think.
Ultimately, though, I don't see the FO trading him just to trade him. Its up to TT/BQ to force the trade.
I just can't see Fox coming to a new organization intent on forsaking wins just to get younger....again.

You may be correct about getting younger again.

But IMO I also beleive he can read the tea leaves, have never heard a credible compliant against Tebow other than he is raw.
Leader check.
Playmaker check.
Smart as hell check.
Winner check.
Fast learner check
Desire be the best check.
4 more years on rookie contract check.
More guaranteed money check.
Good moral compass check.

The list goes on. More at my next library break.

Lonestar
05-19-2011, 12:23 PM
Let's me add. Fox is smart Enough to know that he does not have to win it all up front. He has time and if he improves the D into the top twenty he gets lots of time to train the kid. And as long as Tebow is progressing few boo-birds will be out.

The press loves Tim and he loves the press so unless he gets caugt molesting little old ladies he is golden for a few years.

topscribe
05-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Yeah, I think we've discussed it once or twice. But I did state "to me at least, it's obvious that Orton is a goner..." which implies that it is a belief that I possess, not everyone else.

:beer:

I missed that. My apologies . . .

-----

topscribe
05-19-2011, 12:44 PM
Being in the last year of his contract, Elway and the boys have to consider the fact that if he stays here we lose.

If he stays here and plays poorly, we get nothing in return.

If he stays here and plays well, is he gonna play so well we franchise him?

Sign him to a big time contract?

I dont think so.

If not, he walks away and we get nothing.


So, why keep him around if he will not pay off in the end no matter what?


Goodbye Kyle. :D

If, say, Kyle plays well and gives us a winning record, why not sign him to a
nice contract? We have to remember that the objective to the game is to win,
not play revolving QBs.

They could even sign him to a contract then trade him. They don't have to
let him walk. There's more than one way to skin a cat (apologies to my cat).

Far as playing poorly? I don't think that will happen, barring injury. As Elway
mentioned, Orton played "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level" when Orton
was healthy.

The only thing that could alter that is if Tebow matched Orton's play. Then
they would have a quandary as to what to do with the QBs. But then, the
rest of the league will note that, which may even raise the trade value.

Besides, it is my belief that Tebow has not yet developed into a true NFL
starting QB. He was not good at playing under center and had accuracy
issues, and he has yet to prove he has developed beyond that. And that
takes time.

But the only thing that will bear any of that out is to launch an honest
competition and see what happens. I would hope that we fans would be
behind the winner, no matter who that would be . . .

-----

Tned
05-19-2011, 12:52 PM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that felt this way, but one of the biggest differences between Tebow and Orton was that with Orton, when we were down in the third or fourth quarter, I didn't have much belief that we had any realistic chance of coming from behind and winning. When Tebow took over, even though he made some mistakes, it was clear he was a playmaker, and as a result, there was the belief that he could bring us from behind for a win.

Now, there have been plenty of 'playmakers' that made too many mistakes and were themselves the reason teams fell behind, and in the end, that could be the type of QB Tebow turns into. However, with Orton, you need everything to go right and you might get a win. With Tebow, he looks like a QB that can lead a team to victory, even when the running game, or pass protection or other parts of the game aren't performing perfectly.

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 12:55 PM
If, say, Kyle plays well and gives us a winning record, why not sign him to a
nice contract? We have to remember that the objective to the game is to win,
not play revolving QBs.

They could even sign him to a contract then trade him. They don't have to
let him walk. There's more than one way to skin a cat (apologies to my cat).

Far as playing poorly? I don't think that will happen, barring injury. As Elway
mentioned, Orton played "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level" when Orton
was healthy.

The only thing that could alter that is if Tebow matched Orton's play. Then
they would have a quandary as to what to do with the QBs. But then, the
rest of the league will note that, which may even raise the trade value.

Besides, it is my belief that Tebow has not yet developed into a true NFL
starting QB. He was not good at playing under center and had accuracy
issues, and he has yet to prove he has developed beyond that. And that
takes time.

But the only thing that will bear any of that out is to launch an honest
competition and see what happens. I would hope that we fans would be
behind the winner, no matter who that would be . . .

-----

-----
And I don't expect any brooding threads by TT nuts, if he becomes 'the guy'.



:rolleyes:

Ravage!!!
05-19-2011, 12:56 PM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that felt this way, but one of the biggest differences between Tebow and Orton was that with Orton, when we were down in the third or fourth quarter, I didn't have much belief that we had any realistic chance of coming from behind and winning. When Tebow took over, even though he made some mistakes, it was clear he was a playmaker, and as a result, there was the belief that he could bring us from behind for a win.

Now, there have been plenty of 'playmakers' that made too many mistakes and were themselves the reason teams fell behind, and in the end, that could be the type of QB Tebow turns into. However, with Orton, you need everything to go right and you might get a win. With Tebow, he looks like a QB that can lead a team to victory, even when the running game, or pass protection or other parts of the game aren't performing perfectly.

This is how I feel. Even though I don't think Tebow will develop into the kind of passer we need in the long run, I KNOW in my heart, that Orton isn't going to lead us to victory when behind.

Tebow at least gives me a feeling of "hope" that he's going to WILL the team to victory, and if nothing else, is going to take the team on his shoulders and try to CARRY them to victory if he has to. He has a "never quit, no matter what" mentality that I absolutely LOVE in a QB.... something that Orton just does not have (if he does, I've never seen an ounce of it).

If we gave Orton a long-term contract..... I think I might cry in shame.

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 12:57 PM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that felt this way, but one of the biggest differences between Tebow and Orton was that with Orton, when we were down in the third or fourth quarter, I didn't have much belief that we had any realistic chance of coming from behind and winning. When Tebow took over, even though he made some mistakes, it was clear he was a playmaker, and as a result, there was the belief that he could bring us from behind for a win.

Now, there have been plenty of 'playmakers' that made too many mistakes and were themselves the reason teams fell behind, and in the end, that could be the type of QB Tebow turns into. However, with Orton, you need everything to go right and you might get a win. With Tebow, he looks like a QB that can lead a team to victory, even when the running game, or pass protection or other parts of the game aren't performing perfectly.

T, do you get tingles running up your leg when you watch TT play?

Tned
05-19-2011, 01:01 PM
T, do you get tingles running up your leg when you watch TT play?

Wrong bat channel, wrong bat time, wrong bat party affiliation...

T.K.O.
05-19-2011, 01:02 PM
Orton has been secretly pushing Favre around the farm on his tractor all spring and should be able to whip Tebow in the new "tractor-pull" at training camp.
but seriously folks..... i think we should all keep an open mind about the QB spot.
it could very well be that the broncos still have the best shot at winning with Orton at the helm. especially if there is virtually NO offseason for preperation.

Lonestar
05-19-2011, 01:39 PM
Denver could use another rb. Some suggested they draft one. They didn't.
Az has a relatively young stable of rb's and needs a qb. They drafted a rb relatively early.
Coincidences?

Reading tea leaves again. But I heard we were going to get Lienhart for Orton. even steven that is what the West Texas sports caster are saying and they have an in with teams in PHX

Tned
05-19-2011, 01:42 PM
Reading tea leaves again. But I heard we were going to get Lienhart for Orton. even steven that is what the West Texas sports caster are saying and they have an in with teams in PHX

Hard to believe that Fox and Xanders would pull a McDaniels and trade for another bust QB. With Tebow and Quinn on the roster, I would think they would be far more interested in a draft pick than Leinart, but who knows.

TXBRONC
05-19-2011, 01:42 PM
This is how I feel. Even though I don't think Tebow will develop into the kind of passer we need in the long run, I KNOW in my heart, that Orton isn't going to lead us to victory when behind.

Tebow at least gives me a feeling of "hope" that he's going to WILL the team to victory, and if nothing else, is going to take the team on his shoulders and try to CARRY them to victory if he has to. He has a "never quit, no matter what" mentality that I absolutely LOVE in a QB.... something that Orton just does not have (if he does, I've never seen an ounce of it).

If we gave Orton a long-term contract..... I think I might cry in shame.

I don't Orton has is now but he has had fire in his belly before.

A 5th of Jack Daniels will put fire in anyone's belly. :behindsofa:

J/K

BroncoStud
05-19-2011, 01:43 PM
If, say, Kyle plays well and gives us a winning record, why not sign him to a
nice contract? We have to remember that the objective to the game is to win,
not play revolving QBs.

They could even sign him to a contract then trade him. They don't have to
let him walk. There's more than one way to skin a cat (apologies to my cat).

Far as playing poorly? I don't think that will happen, barring injury. As Elway
mentioned, Orton played "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level" when Orton
was healthy.

The only thing that could alter that is if Tebow matched Orton's play. Then
they would have a quandary as to what to do with the QBs. But then, the
rest of the league will note that, which may even raise the trade value.

Besides, it is my belief that Tebow has not yet developed into a true NFL
starting QB. He was not good at playing under center and had accuracy
issues, and he has yet to prove he has developed beyond that. And that
takes time.

But the only thing that will bear any of that out is to launch an honest
competition and see what happens. I would hope that we fans would be
behind the winner, no matter who that would be . . .

-----

Kyle wouldn't be half bad if he was able to come off the field on 3rd down and in the redzone. Maybe we could just use him for 1st and 2nd downs... :salute:

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 01:43 PM
Wrong bat channel, wrong bat time, wrong bat party affiliation...:lol:
Sorry. That's what popped into my head after I read your post. Certainly, you can't fault me. ;)

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 01:45 PM
Reading tea leaves again. But I heard we were going to get Lienhart for Orton. even steven that is what the West Texas sports caster are saying and they have an in with teams in PHX
Lienhert isn't with AZ anymore.

Tned
05-19-2011, 01:47 PM
:lol:
Sorry. That's what popped into my head after I read your post. Certainly, you can't fault me. ;)

No more than i fault Matthews for giving us that phrase.

LTC Pain
05-19-2011, 02:42 PM
Reading tea leaves again. But I heard we were going to get Lienhart for Orton. even steven that is what the West Texas sports caster are saying and they have an in with teams in PHX

How about a link instead of "tea leaves" so we can make our own assessment?

LTC Pain
05-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Lienhert isn't with AZ anymore.

He didn't say anything about Arizona. Re-read Lonestar's post.

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 03:35 PM
He didn't say anything about Arizona. Re-read Lonestar's post.
Originally Posted by Lonestar: Reading tea leaves again. But I heard we were going to get Lienhart for Orton. even steven that is what the West Texas sports caster are saying and they have an in with teams in PHX. I reread it and boldened why I said that.

LTC Pain
05-19-2011, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Lonestar: Reading tea leaves again. But I heard we were going to get Lienhart for Orton. even steven that is what the West Texas sports caster are saying and they have an in with teams in PHX. I reread it and boldened why I said that.

My bad!

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 04:10 PM
My bad!

No prob. I know you meant well. ;)

I actually thought I did read wrong.

silkamilkamonico
05-19-2011, 04:40 PM
LMAO at Matt Lienart. If that is true, this organization just gets more and more stupid.

rcsodak
05-19-2011, 05:07 PM
LMAO at Matt Lienart. If that is true, this organization just gets more and more stupid.
well,,,prolly should have everybody throwing with the same spin on the ball, right? I mean, ya know?
;)

Ravage!!!
05-19-2011, 05:21 PM
With Leinart, we can have 2 Lefty Heismans that both won 2 National Championships....... :cheer:

TXBRONC
05-19-2011, 07:47 PM
With Leinart, we can have 2 Lefty Heismans that both won 2 National Championships....... :cheer:

Do you really think so????? :lol:

Ravage!!!
05-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Do you really think so????? :lol:

Gotta be the recipe for success

TXBRONC
05-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Gotta be the recipe for success

Absofrigginlutely. :beer:

Npba900
05-19-2011, 07:58 PM
Kyle wouldn't be half bad if he was able to come off the field on 3rd down and in the redzone. Maybe we could just use him for 1st and 2nd downs... :salute:

And Tebow behind center at the 20yd line/redzone?:salute:

nevcraw
05-19-2011, 08:36 PM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that felt this way, but one of the biggest differences between Tebow and Orton was that with Orton, when we were down in the third or fourth quarter, I didn't have much belief that we had any realistic chance of coming from behind and winning. When Tebow took over, even though he made some mistakes, it was clear he was a playmaker, and as a result, there was the belief that he could bring us from behind for a win.

Now, there have been plenty of 'playmakers' that made too many mistakes and were themselves the reason teams fell behind, and in the end, that could be the type of QB Tebow turns into. However, with Orton, you need everything to go right and you might get a win. With Tebow, he looks like a QB that can lead a team to victory, even when the running game, or pass protection or other parts of the game aren't performing perfectly.

yes. 100 times yes.

Canmore
05-21-2011, 03:09 AM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one that felt this way, but one of the biggest differences between Tebow and Orton was that with Orton, when we were down in the third or fourth quarter, I didn't have much belief that we had any realistic chance of coming from behind and winning. When Tebow took over, even though he made some mistakes, it was clear he was a playmaker, and as a result, there was the belief that he could bring us from behind for a win.

Now, there have been plenty of 'playmakers' that made too many mistakes and were themselves the reason teams fell behind, and in the end, that could be the type of QB Tebow turns into. However, with Orton, you need everything to go right and you might get a win. With Tebow, he looks like a QB that can lead a team to victory, even when the running game, or pass protection or other parts of the game aren't performing perfectly.

Neither did I feel confident in Kyle's come from behind ability and 2010 season statistics back that up. According to Mark Simon of ESPN Stats and Information. In the fourth quarter when down by eight points or less, Orton completed 50 percent of his passes, which was the sixth worst percentage in the NFL. He had a passer rating of 51.3, which was the tied for the fifth worst in the league.

Orton wasn’t much better on third down. He completed 50 percent of his passes on third down, which was tied for the eighth worst in the league. His passer rating on third down was 58.0. He threw five interceptions on third down.

When cruch time occurred, Kyle was less than stellar. These are the type of possessions that define a qb. Where ever Kyle plays next, these numbers have to improve.

TXBRONC
05-21-2011, 07:08 AM
Neither did I feel confident in Kyle's come from behind ability and 2010 season statistics back that up. According to Mark Simon of ESPN Stats and Information. In the fourth quarter when down by eight points or less, Orton completed 50 percent of his passes, which was the sixth worst percentage in the NFL. He had a passer rating of 51.3, which was the tied for the fifth worst in the league.

Orton wasn’t much better on third down. He completed 50 percent of his passes on third down, which was tied for the eighth worst in the league. His passer rating on third down was 58.0. He threw five interceptions on third down.

When cruch time occurred, Kyle was less than stellar. These are the type of possessions that define a qb. Where ever Kyle plays next, these numbers have to improve.

Some people have gotten caught up in the gaudy passing yards that Orton put this last season his overall passer rating. The numbers you have refered to have been brought up in other threads and it only confirms what I saw with my own eyes and my own feelings that in crunch time Orton doesn't do well.

I agree that if Orton wants to be a long term solution a quarterback the numbers you've have to improve. But this is his seventh season I don't think the odds are very good that those shorting comings in his game are going to improve all that much if at all.

Tned
05-21-2011, 07:34 AM
Neither did I feel confident in Kyle's come from behind ability and 2010 season statistics back that up. According to Mark Simon of ESPN Stats and Information. In the fourth quarter when down by eight points or less, Orton completed 50 percent of his passes, which was the sixth worst percentage in the NFL. He had a passer rating of 51.3, which was the tied for the fifth worst in the league.

Orton wasn’t much better on third down. He completed 50 percent of his passes on third down, which was tied for the eighth worst in the league. His passer rating on third down was 58.0. He threw five interceptions on third down.

When cruch time occurred, Kyle was less than stellar. These are the type of possessions that define a qb. Where ever Kyle plays next, these numbers have to improve.

Orton seems like a nice guy, and until he showed his lack of professionalism at the end of the year when Tebow took over, I had always believe he was a great "teammate" type guy. However, he showed in Chicago and now in Denver that he simply isn't a very dynamic QB. In the right system with the right team and players around him, he could probably help a team win, or maybe better said, not cause them to lose (can't say that with all QBs). Think Trent Dilfer or Rob Johnson.

Agent of Orange
05-21-2011, 07:41 AM
Ortons fits well with what the Dolphins want to do, but I cant help but think that Palmer is a better Qb in any system. Still, Orton and Marshall have chemistry and lets hope that Miami really falls in love with Orton so the Broncos can get good deal for him.

Palmer hasn't been right for a few years.

Tned
05-21-2011, 07:52 AM
Palmer hasn't been right for a few years.

I don't know if it was the knee injury or the elbow injury, or what, but he's never really turned into the QB that he looked like he would be after his 2nd/3rd year (say his whole first year).

Agent of Orange
05-21-2011, 08:42 AM
I don't know if it was the knee injury or the elbow injury, or what, but he's never really turned into the QB that he looked like he would be after his 2nd/3rd year (say his whole first year).

It could be in his head too. Who knows? Regardless, he's not without risk even though he may still have talent.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-21-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't know if it was the knee injury or the elbow injury, or what, but he's never really turned into the QB that he looked like he would be after his 2nd/3rd year (say his whole first year).

Carson could get by on arm strength for a long time. He's apparently lost a little velocity in his throwing shoulder.

NightTerror218
05-23-2011, 11:25 AM
In an interview with the National Football Post, Broncos executive John Elway said last year's starting quarterback, Kyle Orton, needs to win more games. "Kyle has had good numbers, but we haven’t won a lot of football games, that’s the bottom line. That’s a reflection of you as a quarterback whether you want it or not. I take it as a responsibility of that quarterback."

Just read this quote by Elway, this could be why Orton is not the man for Elway. I hope other GM don't look at it same way to keep his value high-ish for trade.

vandammage13
05-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Think Trent Dilfer or Rob Johnson.


I think you mean Brad Johnson..... Rob Johnson (AKA Robosack) was an inconsistent guy who often hurt his team more than he helped them.

But I would still agree if you think Orton is on the level of Rob Johnson.....