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robert ethan
05-13-2011, 08:54 PM
Final results in on the deal, and if you follow all the little side paths with various picks, it looks like the Broncos basically come out with Tebow and Orlando Franklin in the exchange. Franklin has way too much bust potential for my liking, but Tebow should make the deal worthwhile on his own.

turftoad
05-13-2011, 09:21 PM
Final results in on the deal, and if you follow all the little side paths with various picks, it looks like the Broncos basically come out with Tebow and Orlando Franklin in the exchange. Franklin has way too much bust potential for my liking, but Tebow should make the deal worthwhile on his own.

Good post, however, it is far from final results. Marshall has a horse crap QB throwing the ball.

Time will tell but, nothing is final just yet.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-13-2011, 09:26 PM
Good post, however, it is far from final results. Marshall has a horse crap QB throwing the ball.

Time will tell but, nothing is final just yet.

Yep. If either Tebow or Franklin turns out to be a solid career starter, then we got our money's worth. Marshall doesn't appear to have improved his off-field situation and until he does, he'll never reach his full potential on it.

What a waste, the guy could've been the best WR in Bronco history.

Tned
05-13-2011, 09:34 PM
Can someone lay out how the 2nd for Marshall turned into Tebow?

HORSEPOWER 56
05-13-2011, 09:36 PM
Can someone lay out how the 2nd for Marshall turned into Tebow?

Wasn't Miami's 2nd from last year one of the picks we packaged, among others, to get back up into the 1st for Tebow?

Tned
05-13-2011, 09:51 PM
Wasn't Miami's 2nd from last year one of the picks we packaged, among others, to get back up into the 1st for Tebow?

Basically what I remembered, which means you can't say we got Tebow and Franklin for Marshall.

WARHORSE
05-13-2011, 10:37 PM
Marshall got stabbed by his wife, unequivicably, we won the trade.


Good riddance clown marshall.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-13-2011, 10:38 PM
Marshall got stabbed by his wife, unequivicably, we won the trade.


Good riddance clown marshall.

He got stabbed by a Sony too....of course it may not be fair to implicate Sony like that, with me not being sure of the actual brand.

jhildebrand
05-13-2011, 10:51 PM
He got stabbed by a Sony too....of course it may not be fair to implicate Sony like that, with me not being sure of the actual brand.

And tripped by the hamburgler

I Eat Staples
05-13-2011, 10:52 PM
Lol...Tebow has more "bust" potential than any player in the NFL.

But even then he won't really be a bust, because only McDumbass thought he was a first round talent.

robert ethan
05-14-2011, 12:44 AM
You're right...I suppose 20% you could say we got Franklin and 80% of Tebow. That's still fine by me! :elefant:

The other picks they used to trade up for Tebow were extras from trading down in the first place. They also got some extras this year by trading down in the second so S.F. could draft Kaepernick. Tebow will be a far better NFL quarterback than Kaepernick. If you consolidate the deals, they got Orton, Ayers, McBath, D. Thomas, Tebow, Decker, Franklin, and I believe J. Thomas and Virgil Green for Cutler and Marshall. Perrish Cox for Scheffler. Good deals that will just get better and better as time goes by.

Tned
05-14-2011, 12:50 AM
The other picks they used to trade up for Tebow were extras from trading down in the first place. They also got some extras this year by trading down in the second so S.F. could draft Kaepernick. Tebow will be a far better NFL quarterback than Kaepernick.

The point is that much of what was used to get Tebow were the picks they got by trading back before finally picking DT. You cannot say that the Broncos got Tebow and Franklin for Marshall, as it is only 'part' of Tebow that came from the Marshall trade.

claymore
05-14-2011, 02:47 AM
Marshall is still a better player than Tebow and Franklin. Jury is still out.

WARHORSE
05-14-2011, 02:55 AM
Marshall is still a better player than Tebow and Franklin. Jury is still out.


Hes also a cancer that cant stay out of trouble, and brings unwanted attention to his front office and teamates.


He is a yearlong suspension waiting to happen, and something tells me he may be arrested for assaulting his wife soon....unless she shoots him in self defense first.:tsk:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-14-2011, 03:03 AM
The other picks they used to trade up for Tebow were extras from trading down in the first place. They also got some extras this year by trading down in the second so S.F. could draft Kaepernick. Tebow will be a far better NFL quarterback than Kaepernick. If you consolidate the deals, they got Orton, Ayers, McBath, D. Thomas, Tebow, Decker, Franklin, and I believe J. Thomas and Virgil Green for Cutler and Marshall. Perrish Cox for Scheffler. Good deals that will just get better and better as time goes by.

Don't get me wrong, I love Tebow.

What I was geting at is that some of it may have been comensation from trading down/later picks, but probably close to 80% of the value came from the 2nd we got for Brandon. My 20% insert was a typo.

I don't see how it can be argued that Miami got the better part of the deal when Brandon might not even be playing for the Dolphins next year. I don't think it's taken them long to figure out why he wore out his welcome in Denver.

claymore
05-14-2011, 06:50 AM
Hes also a cancer that cant stay out of trouble, and brings unwanted attention to his front office and teamates.


He is a yearlong suspension waiting to happen, and something tells me he may be arrested for assaulting his wife soon....unless she shoots him in self defense first.:tsk:
Im only concerned about on the field production. All the rest of that stuff is speculation and hate.

Tned
05-14-2011, 12:06 PM
Hes also a cancer that cant stay out of trouble, and brings unwanted attention to his front office and teamates.


He is a yearlong suspension waiting to happen, and something tells me he may be arrested for assaulting his wife soon....unless she shoots him in self defense first.:tsk:

For years now you guys have been saying he's a year long suspension waiting to happen. In the meantime he just produces on the field.

Ravage!!!
05-14-2011, 12:14 PM
Marshall is still the better NFL player, by far, than anyone we've gotten or seen for our team up to this point. There really is no arguing that, despite how much you might thing Marshall's "problems" hve caused Miami..they haven't.

Northman
05-14-2011, 12:21 PM
Good post, however, it is far from final results. Marshall has a horse crap QB throwing the ball.

Time will tell but, nothing is final just yet.

Not only that but Marshall has had 4 consecative years of productivity even with a limitation at the Qb position. Tebow has had 3 games and Franklin has yet to be seen.

WARHORSE
05-14-2011, 12:37 PM
For years now you guys have been saying he's a year long suspension waiting to happen. In the meantime he just produces on the field.

Is there an untruth in saying hes a yearlong suspension waiting to happen?



Hes a troublemaker and a woman beater. And to this day, KNOWING whats at stake, he still cannont control himself and be disciplined enough to stay out of trouble.


And tell me where the news came from in Miami: From his on the field dominance, or his off the field problems/on the field whining?


Be truthful.

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 12:55 PM
Is there an untruth in saying hes a yearlong suspension waiting to happen?



Hes a troublemaker and a woman beater. And to this day, KNOWING whats at stake, he still cannont control himself and be disciplined enough to stay out of trouble.


And tell me where the news came from in Miami: From his on the field dominance, or his off the field problems/on the field whining?


Be truthful.

There is untruth to what you're saying because there isn't one person here that knows what Goodell knows or what he is thinking.

Tned
05-14-2011, 12:58 PM
Is there an untruth in saying hes a yearlong suspension waiting to happen?



Hes a troublemaker and a woman beater. And to this day, KNOWING whats at stake, he still cannont control himself and be disciplined enough to stay out of trouble.


And tell me where the news came from in Miami: From his on the field dominance, or his off the field problems/on the field whining?


Be truthful.


Mike Anderson was suspended for 4 times as many games as Marshall. Based on the way some of you guys think,half the league one misstep from an 8 or 16 game suspension.

WARHORSE
05-14-2011, 01:07 PM
Im only concerned about on the field production. All the rest of that stuff is speculation and hate.


Heres a list of possible players for ya then:

Ben Rottenlessbooger
Plaxico Burress
Santonio Holmes
Shaun Rogers
Jeff Reed
Braylon Edwards
Travis Henry
Ocho Cinco
Pac Man Jones
Vince Young
Jermaine Phillips
Donte Stallworth
Joey Porter
Albert Haynesworth
Jamarcus RUsse............erase him.
Javon Walker
DJ Williams
Perrish Cox
Will Smith
Jeramy Stevens
Cedric Benson
Dez Bryant
Donte Whitner
OJ Simpson**** Four star playa

Brandon Marshall is even MORE lame, cause he has more talent.

Leave the women and ball boys alone Marshall.

Go pick on a defensive lineman or something.

Lonestar
05-14-2011, 01:18 PM
Good post, however, it is far from final results. Marshall has a horse crap QB throwing the ball.

Time will tell but, nothing is final just yet.

Your correct on the crap QB but remember he is a bitch slap away from a looooong suspension

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 01:21 PM
Heres a list of possible players for ya then:

Ben Rottenlessbooger
Plaxico Burress
Santonio Holmes
Shaun Rogers
Jeff Reed
Braylon Edwards
Travis Henry
Ocho Cinco
Pac Man Jones
Vince Young
Jermaine Phillips
Donte Stallworth
Joey Porter
Albert Haynesworth
Jamarcus RUsse............erase him.
Javon Walker
DJ Williams
Perrish Cox
Will Smith
Jeramy Stevens
Cedric Benson
Dez Bryant
Donte Whitner
OJ Simpson**** Four star playa

Brandon Marshall is even MORE lame, cause he has more talent.

Leave the women and ball boys alone Marshall.

Go pick on a defensive lineman or something.

Ok where are going with this because your list makes no sense to me?

O.J. Simpson? The man has been retired for three freakin decades so don't know the Goodell could suspend him.

I don't recall D.J. Williams being disciplined by League. So how is it that is susceptible to a 8 to 16 game suspension? The same with Cedric Benson I recall him being suspended. Besides that tell me what trouble has he been in since going to Bengals?

Again I honestly don't understand where you're going with this list. From what I understand he handles these things on case by case basis.

At this rate every player in the League is just one misstep away from a suspension.

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 01:22 PM
Your correct on the crap QB but remember he is a bitch slap away from a looooong suspension

Do you work for Goodell?

Ravage!!!
05-14-2011, 02:07 PM
At this rate every player in the League is just one misstep away from a suspension.

Apparently they are all just one step away from a looooooong suspension

Lonestar
05-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Must be nice knowing one can post with impunity knowing that you'll never get a response.

So take your best shots just so y'all can have a laugh.

But then folks will be laughing at you so. Have a ball. .

Tned
05-14-2011, 02:43 PM
Must be nice knowing one can post with impunity knowing that you'll never get a response.

So take your best shots just so y'all can have a laugh.

But then folks will be laughing at you so. Have a ball. .

:confused:

Can anyone translate this into English that can be understood by an Arky?

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 02:52 PM
:confused:

Can anyone translate this into English that can be understood by an Arky?

You're not alone. :whoknows:

Northman
05-14-2011, 02:54 PM
:confused:

Can anyone translate this into English that can be understood by an Arky?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aeE-Y-KoMRQ/TEHN934sa9I/AAAAAAAABtQ/pmJmN8kyQjo/s1600/idiot.jpg

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 02:58 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aeE-Y-KoMRQ/TEHN934sa9I/AAAAAAAABtQ/pmJmN8kyQjo/s1600/idiot.jpg

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

WARHORSE
05-14-2011, 03:27 PM
Ok where are going with this because your list makes no sense to me?

O.J. Simpson? The man has been retired for three freakin decades so don't know the Goodell could suspend him.

I don't recall D.J. Williams being disciplined by League. So how is it that is susceptible to a 8 to 16 game suspension? The same with Cedric Benson I recall him being suspended. Besides that tell me what trouble has he been in since going to Bengals?

Again I honestly don't understand where you're going with this list. From what I understand he handles these things on case by case basis.

At this rate every player in the League is just one misstep away from a suspension.


Well, actually the OJ selection was supposed to be a humorous pick, but it went flyin by.

And if you dont understand what Im saying, I can understand why you like Brandon.

I digress, and you have the floor. Continue please..........:coffee:

WARHORSE
05-14-2011, 03:30 PM
Mike Anderson was suspended for 4 times as many games as Marshall. Based on the way some of you guys think,half the league one misstep from an 8 or 16 game suspension.


I cant believe you pulled the Mike Anderson card.


Im sure it makes sense.......but those more intelligent than I are still in discussion about it.


I'll get back to ya.





:confused:

robert ethan
05-14-2011, 03:38 PM
The point is that much of what was used to get Tebow were the picks they got by trading back before finally picking DT. You cannot say that the Broncos got Tebow and Franklin for Marshall, as it is only 'part' of Tebow that came from the Marshall trade.

By the trade value chart, the #25 pick is worth 720 points, the #43 pick is 480 points. So it works out to 2/3 of Tebow if you want to be technical. I think Marshall just had 20 catches and a couple of TDs as a rookie, so Tebow is well ahead in terms of first year production already.

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 03:42 PM
Well, actually the OJ selection was supposed to be a humorous pick, but it went flyin by.

And if you dont understand what Im saying, I can understand why you like Brandon.

I digress, and you have the floor. Continue please..........:coffee:

No need for insults. What doesn't make sense is that you have guy like D.J. Williams on your list who hasn't even been to the commissioner's office that I'm aware of, and you have a guy like Cedric Benson who hasn't had any problems in three years he's been in Cincinnati. Again I'm not sure he's even been to the commissioner's office.

robert ethan
05-14-2011, 03:45 PM
The point is that much of what was used to get Tebow were the picks they got by trading back before finally picking DT. You cannot say that the Broncos got Tebow and Franklin for Marshall, as it is only 'part' of Tebow that came from the Marshall trade.

By the trade value chart, the #25 pick is worth 720 points, the #43 pick is 480 points. So it works out to 2/3 of Tebow if you want to be technical. I think Marshall just had 20 catches and a couple of TDs as a rookie, so Tebow is well ahead in terms of first year production already. Just as a runner, Tebow had nearly as many yards as a rookie, and three times as many touchdowns.

rcsodak
05-14-2011, 03:47 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aeE-Y-KoMRQ/TEHN934sa9I/AAAAAAAABtQ/pmJmN8kyQjo/s1600/idiot.jpg

Calling posters Idiot, isn't against COC? Or just certain posters? :coffee:

rcsodak
05-14-2011, 03:48 PM
No need for insults. What doesn't make sense is that you have guy like D.J. Williams on your list who hasn't even been to the commissioner's office that I'm aware of, and you have a guy like Cedric Benson who hasn't had any problems in three years he's been in Cincinnati. Again I'm not sure he's even been to the commissioner's office.
Where was the insult?

rcsodak
05-14-2011, 03:50 PM
Must be nice knowing one can post with impunity knowing that you'll never get a response.

So take your best shots just so y'all can have a laugh.

But then folks will be laughing at you so. Have a ball. .
I guess we just have friends in low places.

Ravage!!!
05-14-2011, 04:11 PM
yes, each other

TXBRONC
05-14-2011, 04:13 PM
yes, each other

I don't know but why I just got the feeling you're a Garth Brooks fan. :lol:

Northman
05-14-2011, 04:18 PM
yes, each other

They say its lonely at the bottom.

BroncoStud
05-14-2011, 08:29 PM
He got stabbed by a Sony too....of course it may not be fair to implicate Sony like that, with me not being sure of the actual brand.

Could have been Microsoft or Nintendo, possibly Ronald McDonald. Marshall is a douche.

horsepig
05-14-2011, 09:09 PM
I'm gonna go watch Kim & Kloe's butts.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-14-2011, 09:16 PM
Could have been Microsoft or Nintendo, possibly Ronald McDonald. Marshall is a douche.

Apparently Marshall recently stated in an interview that he's misunderstood. Here's a picture of him as the interview begins.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd394/bonairedivevilla/Bonaire%20Landscape/P1010038.jpg

In all seriousness, I always thought Brandon was a good football player, and had a very likeable personality, but it just made no sense to sign him to a long term deal, especially with what he wanted. There's rumors out of Miami that he might not even play a second season with them.


http://www.thephinsider.com/2011/4/25/2131154/miami-dolphins-the-fallout-from-the-brandon-marshall-stabbing

WARHORSE
05-14-2011, 11:19 PM
The FACT is, Brandon has been in a TON of trouble already, and he knows it.

The fact that he knows it, and he still cannot bring himself to be disciplined tells you everything you need to know about him.


I used to LOVE Brandon Marshall.


But great players that are about themselves are a cancer you cannot put in a jar.


Im SO GLAD hes not a Bronco anymore, and if he hasnt learned self control to this day, with all hes been involved with and everything he knows is on the line for the team that paid him........ its not coming any time soon.

Brandon does not care nor think about his actions consequences on the franchise nor his teamates.

Not having him on the field can be the difference of winning or losing, and they need to be able to count on high paid players like him to show up EVERY DAY, with his hard hat on, and his sleeves rolled up. Being a leader, staying out of trouble, and helping his team win on sundays.

He has slippery hands, and dropped a ton of passes last year.

He followed that up with getting in an altercation with his wife in which she felt she had to stab him in order to defend herself.

Whether true or not, IT IS WHAT IT IS, and its ALL a PERMANENT part of the Brandon Marshall show.


We won the trade. End of story.

Ravage!!!
05-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Miami got the better football player, and we haven't gotten a player YET that has proved a single thing. We haven't won the trade in teh least.

/discussion!!! :lol:


(Not hard to claim thats the end. Anyone can do it.)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-14-2011, 11:54 PM
Miami got the better football player, and we haven't gotten a player YET that has proved a single thing. We haven't won the trade in teh least.

/discussion!!! :lol:


(Not hard to claim thats the end. Anyone can do it.)

Well, it's hard to argue that point....I still firmly believe we made the right choice and would do it again in a heart beat.

The question is, would Miami do it again? I have serious doubts....

BeefStew25
05-14-2011, 11:57 PM
Marshall doesn't have the heart of a Bronco.

Broncospsycho77
05-15-2011, 08:08 AM
Miami got the better football player, and we haven't gotten a player YET that has proved a single thing. We haven't won the trade in teh least.

/discussion!!! :lol:


(Not hard to claim thats the end. Anyone can do it.)

That's only if you assume Marshall is positive to the Dolphins organization and brand image.

Because, well, 0 > -1.

Because, let's face it, we all knew he was gonna get stabbed by his crazy wife or one of her friends since the first incident, no matter whose "fault" it was.

Under that rationale, the Broncos also get "not having to deal with long-term brand issues and PR fiasco when Marshall gets stabbed" on their plate.

Which, even if our current allowance of players has done absolutely nothing, the trade would be as follows:

Dolphins get:
Brandon Marshall
Brandon Marshall's baggage

Broncos get:
Not Brandon Marshall's baggage


To me, that's a huge win, as sad as it sounds. But again, zero is better than negative.

BORDERLINE
05-15-2011, 09:18 AM
For sure Denver Came out winning in this trade. Brandon Lloyd played hard all year and went to a well deserved Pro-Bowl. While Marshall sat back mad/throwing his QB under the bus. Although Marshall is a beast his off field issues are to BIG to ignore. If B.Lloyd din't perform like he did this year maybe I would be singing a different tune.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2011, 10:17 AM
Not me. We keep hearing over and over again how some will speculate about this Loooooong suspension. Marshall just keeps producing on the field despite everything else. This team is VOID of playmakers, and Marshall is the best WR this franchise has ever had.

Some of you want to look at the 'image'... that Image is nothing but raised by actually WINNING. We need players to win. Marshall is a game changer.

Although I get that some of you don't think the risk is worth it... I guess I just have a more entrepreneurial spirit and am willing to take risk for better reward.

BroncoJoe
05-15-2011, 10:22 AM
Not me. We keep hearing over and over again how some will speculate about this Loooooong suspension. Marshall just keeps producing on the field despite everything else. This team is VOID of playmakers, and Marshall is the best WR this franchise has ever had.

Some of you want to look at the 'image'... that Image is nothing but raised by actually WINNING. We need players to win. Marshall is a game changer.

Although I get that some of you don't think the risk is worth it... I guess I just have a more entrepreneurial spirit and am willing to take risk for better reward.

Uh, no.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2011, 10:25 AM
Uh, no.

Yes. I love Rod Smith.. but Marshall is the better WR as far as talent. There isn't a doubt about it. Rod was good, and stuck in the NFL and performed well year after year, and I'm not taking away from him..... but Marshall is a Beast that Rod just wasn't.

Marshall is the best WR that Denver has ever had, and thats not being said to insult ANY WR we've had in the past in the least.

Broncospsycho77
05-15-2011, 10:29 AM
25mJZhWgmBo

BroncoJoe
05-15-2011, 10:36 AM
Jeff George had superior talent too. It's disingenuous to players like Lionel Taylor, Rick Upchurch, Steve Watson, Haven Moses, Ed McCaffrey and yes Rod Smith to label Marshall as the "best" Denver has ever had.

But, we are talking opinion here and you're certainly entitled to yours.

LTC Pain
05-15-2011, 10:38 AM
Jeff George had superior talent too. It's disingenuous to players like Lionel Taylor, Rick Upchurch, Steve Watson, Haven Moses, Ed McCaffrey and yes Rod Smith to label Marshall as the "best" Denver has ever had.

But, we are talking opinion here and you're certainly entitled to yours.

I'd take Rod Smith (on/off the field) over B. Marshall every time! That's a no-brainer.

Lonestar
05-15-2011, 10:38 AM
Best WR we have ever had that is male bovine excrement. A double load. The three amigos produced more plays than this punk. And they were not all that great.

BM (that is a Pun inteneded) caught alot of balls but to do that NE had to be the most targeted WR in the NFL.

He caught balls as a general rule 3-7% less effectively than is teammates they all had a higher catch percentage than he did.

Big target and made some great catches but then so did Ashley.

But best WR Rod was the best and coupled with Eddie Mac were IMHO 10times the WR that BM is.

Nott even getting into the locker room cancer he is. Rod was a leader BM is simply BM.

Lonestar
05-15-2011, 10:41 AM
Let me add Lionel was better, steve was better IMO Edie Mac was a heads and above better WR.

Time to let go of the infatuation that some have and think logically.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2011, 10:41 AM
Jeff George had superior talent too. It's disingenuous to players like Lionel Taylor, Rick Upchurch, Steve Watson, Haven Moses, Ed McCaffrey and yes Rod Smith to label Marshall as the "best" Denver has ever had.

But, we are talking opinion here and you're certainly entitled to yours.

Ok, Marshall is not the best "bronco" as he wasn't here long enough, and I'm not talking about my emotional ties to all the guys you mentioned...for my emotional ties to all of them are higher on them as a Bronco than Marshall.

So as far as 'talent'.... Marshall is the best WR the Broncos has ever had.

BroncoJoe
05-15-2011, 10:45 AM
Ok, Marshall is not the best "bronco" as he wasn't here long enough, and I'm not talking about my emotional ties to all the guys you mentioned...for my emotional ties to all of them are higher on them as a Bronco than Marshall.

So as far as 'talent'.... Marshall is the best WR the Broncos has ever had.

Couldn't disagree more, but that's your opinion. Nothing more.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-15-2011, 10:48 AM
Not me. We keep hearing over and over again how some will speculate about this Loooooong suspension. Marshall just keeps producing on the field despite everything else. This team is VOID of playmakers, and Marshall is the best WR this franchise has ever had.

Some of you want to look at the 'image'... that Image is nothing but raised by actually WINNING. We need players to win. Marshall is a game changer.

Although I get that some of you don't think the risk is worth it... I guess I just have a more entrepreneurial spirit and am willing to take risk for better reward.

I think Marshall was bad for this offense. He had a lot of catches and yards, but his TD numbers were average. He was a very good possession receiver. He never averaged over 10 ypc.

Additionally, the real problem was his attitude. He demanded the ball and would become disinterested if he wasn't force fed the ball. I think the passing game was more potent last year without him. He'd be great in Denver if you could put a different head on his shoulders.

I really hope Thomas recovers...

I personally have no idea if he'll get suspended for getting stabbed. I do know there's a good chance the Dolphins release him, however.

BTW, his numbers weren't that great last year.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2011, 10:50 AM
There were NEVER EVER reports of Marshall "demanding" the ball. Thats just not being honest.

Northman
05-15-2011, 12:42 PM
BTW, his numbers weren't that great last year.

He also had some very bad QB's throwing him the ball.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2011, 12:54 PM
Well, has more catches, more yards, and more TDs than Andre Johnson did in the same amount of years in the NFL.

Plus, he missed something like 2+ games, and still caught 85 passes with BAD QBs (and a team that had three starting for the year).

Not exactly bad.

Benetto
05-15-2011, 01:02 PM
Ok, Marshall is not the best "bronco" as he wasn't here long enough, and I'm not talking about my emotional ties to all the guys you mentioned...for my emotional ties to all of them are higher on them as a Bronco than Marshall.

So as far as 'talent'.... Marshall is the best WR the Broncos has ever had.


Rod Smiff, eat your heart out.. :Sarcastic:

With all due respect, I can't remember Rod Smith (or Ed Mack) dropping countless balls...And being a non-factor when your team loses 3 out of 3 IMPORTANT games left in the season. Dude clinched Super Bowl 33 for us.

Benetto
05-15-2011, 01:13 PM
Don't get me wrong, Marshall is a game changer...but I can't put him ahead of Rod or Eddie...There is a reason why we were the best offense for years in the late 90s. John had many different WRs throughout his career (while young), and won his only two as an old man with #80 and #87...

Tned
05-15-2011, 01:18 PM
Don't get me wrong, Marshall is a game changer...but I can't put him ahead of Rod or Eddie...There is a reason why we were the best offense for years in the late 90s. John had many different WRs throughout his career (while young), and won his only two as an old man with #80 and #87...

I think #30 had a lot to do with those wins.

Benetto
05-15-2011, 01:21 PM
I think #30 had a lot to do with those wins.


Brandon Marshall doesn't play RB though...:D

I was talking about WRs, and how they factored in talent-wise.

Tned
05-15-2011, 01:31 PM
Brandon Marshall doesn't play RB though...:D

I was talking about WRs, and how they factored in talent-wise.

Yea, but you brought up the SB wins and I think virtually all would agree that TD was a much bigger factor in the lat '90s succuss than Smith or Eddy.

I loved Smith and he was a great Bronco, but Marshall could take over a game in a way that Smith never could.

Northman
05-15-2011, 02:13 PM
Yea, but you brought up the SB wins and I think virtually all would agree that TD was a much bigger factor in the lat '90s succuss than Smith or Eddy.

I loved Smith and he was a great Bronco, but Marshall could take over a game in a way that Smith never could.


Indeed. TD was a much bigger factor than Eddy Mac or Smith. As much as i love both those guys talent wise Marshall is still better there's just no question. I think the main problem is people just have a hard time getting past Brandon's attitude which is somewhat understandable. But when you look at the player and not the person its pretty easy to see Brandon is much better and has proved it without a HOF QB throwing him the ball. People tend to forget that Eddy Mac was a nobody prior to coming to Denver.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-15-2011, 02:30 PM
There were NEVER EVER reports of Marshall "demanding" the ball. Thats just not being honest.

I'm not trying to be dishonest in any way Rav...I think you know I don't post like that. I never suggested there were reports. I'm just commenting based on the body language you see on the field, and the tendancy he has to take plays off and show disinterset. He only seemed to be genuinely interested when he was the focal point of the offense...once again, just my opinion.

Additionally Rav, I don't think it's very sincere to be suggesting others just aren't as "enterprenueral" as you are, just because they don't agree with you. That's a bit of an elitist attitude.

Don't misunderstand me. I really liked Brandon and think he is an immensely talented receiver, but so was David Boston. Brandon is a time-bomb, IMO.

I don't think we can only have choir boys with no talent on the team, but I do think it's possible to build a team around strong leaders who are extremely talented. Good examples of that are some of the past SB MVP's, like Drew Brees, Reggie White, and even our own TD.

I would love to have Brandon on the team, but not at #1 WR money.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-15-2011, 02:39 PM
He also had some very bad QB's throwing him the ball.


Well, has more catches, more yards, and more TDs than Andre Johnson did in the same amount of years in the NFL.

Plus, he missed something like 2+ games, and still caught 85 passes with BAD QBs (and a team that had three starting for the year).

Not exactly bad.

Once again, I'm not saying he isn't an immensely talented guy. He's one of the best possession receivers in the league, and he seems like a very likeable guy.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2011, 02:43 PM
I'm not trying to be dishonest in any way Rav...I think you know I don't post like that. I never suggested there were reports. I'm just commenting based on the body language you see on the field, and the tendancy he has to take plays off and show disinterset. He only seemed to be genuinely interested when he was the focal point of the offense...once again, just my opinion.

Additionally Rav, I don't think it's very sincere to be suggesting others just aren't as "enterprenueral" as you are, just because they don't agree with you. That's a bit of an elitist attitude.

Don't misunderstand me. I really liked Brandon and think he is an immensely talented receiver, but so was David Boston. Brandon is a time-bomb, IMO.

I don't think we can only have choir boys with no talent on the team, but I do think it's possible to build a team around strong leaders who are extremely talented. Good examples of that are some of the past SB MVP's, like Drew Brees, Reggie White, and even our own TD.

I would love to have Brandon on the team, but not at #1 WR money.

well, I used the word "enterprenueral" for lack of better word. Purely meaning that perhaps I'm willing to take more chances than SOME others. Thats not elitist, its just stating something based on the fact that many have posted that they are worried about the "chance" of suspension.

Also, I'm not calling you a liar, Al... I know you don't do that. I'm just saying that the way you posted it, is as if Marshall was known to be a problem in the huddle. Not one time have we heard ANYTHING, from the 4 (5) QBs he's played with, has he ever been demanding of the ball or complained about not getting passes. I don't think its a fair statement to make that suggestion when NOTHING has remotely pointed that direction.

But Talented #1 WRs are going to come at talented #1 WR money.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-15-2011, 03:03 PM
well, I used the word "enterprenueral" for lack of better word. Purely meaning that perhaps I'm willing to take more chances than SOME others. Thats not elitist, its just stating something based on the fact that many have posted that they are worried about the "chance" of suspension.

Also, I'm not calling you a liar, Al... I know you don't do that. I'm just saying that the way you posted it, is as if Marshall was known to be a problem in the huddle. Not one time have we heard ANYTHING, from the 4 (5) QBs he's played with, has he ever been demanding of the ball or complained about not getting passes. I don't think its a fair statement to make that suggestion when NOTHING has remotely pointed that direction.

But Talented #1 WRs are going to come at talented #1 WR money.

That all makes sense...I should have phrased my statement differently. I never got the impression he caused trouble in the huddle. I do believe he becomes disinterested and frustrated when he's not getting the ball though.

I really like Brandon, I just wouldn't give him that much money.

robert ethan
05-15-2011, 06:23 PM
I think whether you're his coach, his teammate, his wife, or a random person on the street, Marshall comes across as being arrogant and self centered. Basically all the same reasons people hate Cam Newton, except Marshall is probably more clever.

rcsodak
05-15-2011, 06:32 PM
Yes. I love Rod Smith.. but Marshall is the better WR as far as talent. There isn't a doubt about it. Rod was good, and stuck in the NFL and performed well year after year, and I'm not taking away from him..... but Marshall is a Beast that Rod just wasn't.

Marshall is the best WR that Denver has ever had, and thats not being said to insult ANY WR we've had in the past in the least.

So let me get this straight.


Orton puts up big numbers, but not enough TDs for you.

MEANWHILE, bm puts up big numbers, with frail TD numbers, and "he's the best WR that Denver has ever had"?

rcsodak
05-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Not me. We keep hearing over and over again how some will speculate about this Loooooong suspension. Marshall just keeps producing on the field despite everything else. This team is VOID of playmakers, and Marshall is the best WR this franchise has ever had.

Some of you want to look at the 'image'... that Image is nothing but raised by actually WINNING. We need players to win. Marshall is a game changer.

Although I get that some of you don't think the risk is worth it... I guess I just have a more entrepreneurial spirit and am willing to take risk for better reward.

A "game changer" actually changes games.

Other than the Dallas game, when most here just called his TD catch/run "lucky", and another game where orton saw (uh oh)the mismatch vs a certain cb and kept throwing to him and they won the game, he hasn't changed squat.
An" entrepreneurial spirit"? That's easy to say with somebody elses money, imo. Luckily, Mr B. has mastered that spirit.

rcsodak
05-15-2011, 07:03 PM
There were NEVER EVER reports of Marshall "demanding" the ball. Thats just not being honest.

http://profootball.scout.com/2/1035357.html
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12975888

Marshall said, “so I guess we have to evaluate Marshall never mentioned Henne by name, but in last Sunday’s loss to the Detroit Lions, he could be seen throwing out his arms at Henne after two interceptions and pointing at backup Tyler Thigpen, perhaps indicating he wanted a QB change. Marshall also seemed to imply that the play calling by offensive coordinator Dan Henning wasn’t to his liking.

Lonestar
05-15-2011, 07:45 PM
So let me get this straight.


Orton puts up big numbers, but not enough TDs for you.

MEANWHILE, bm puts up big numbers, with frail TD numbers, and "he's the best WR that Denver has ever had"?

Go figure. :salute:

Lonestar
05-15-2011, 07:48 PM
http://profootball.scout.com/2/1035357.html
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12975888

Marshall said, “so I guess we have to evaluate Marshall never mentioned Henne by name, but in last Sunday’s loss to the Detroit Lions, he could be seen throwing out his arms at Henne after two interceptions and pointing at backup Tyler Thigpen, perhaps indicating he wanted a QB change. Marshall also seemed to imply that the play calling by offensive coordinator Dan Henning wasn’t to his liking.

Don't worry they will find a way to excuse him afteall he was a game changer.

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

robert ethan
05-16-2011, 12:57 AM
If you add the values of the two second round picks, it comes out between #17 overall, and #18 overall in round one. A year ago Maurkice Pouncey was the #18 overall pick. Guy went to the Pro Bowl as a 20 year old rookie, I believe. This year would give you Nate Solder or Prince Amukamura.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 01:21 AM
what does the value points matter? If the Patriots traded away Tom Brady, do you think they would get a 'good trade' if they simply got the value chart points in return? The points on some chart make absolutely no difference.

WARHORSE
05-16-2011, 02:10 AM
Yes. I love Rod Smith.. but Marshall is the better WR as far as talent. There isn't a doubt about it. Rod was good, and stuck in the NFL and performed well year after year, and I'm not taking away from him..... but Marshall is a Beast that Rod just wasn't.

Marshall is the best WR that Denver has ever had, and thats not being said to insult ANY WR we've had in the past in the least.


Uh.......no.

WARHORSE
05-16-2011, 02:18 AM
Yea, but you brought up the SB wins and I think virtually all would agree that TD was a much bigger factor in the lat '90s succuss than Smith or Eddy.

I loved Smith and he was a great Bronco, but Marshall could take over a game in a way that Smith never could.


And Id have to argue that our offensive line was an even bigger factor than TD.

That offensive line is one of the most unheralded works of art in the halls of NFL lore.

And TD, Elway, Smith, McCaffrey and Sharpe all owe homage to those bulls, and to their mentor Alex Gibbs.

Marshall was a possession receiver, and still is a possession receiver, that cannot get the job done inside the 10 yard line.

Between the 20s, he could get the ball, but come up with game winning plays?


Uh.....no.

Lonestar
05-16-2011, 05:17 AM
And Id have to argue that our offensive line was an even bigger factor than TD.
That offensive line is one of the most unheralded works of art in the halls of NFL lore.
And TD, Elway, Smith, McCaffrey and Sharpe all owe homage to those bulls, and to their mentor Alex Gibbs.
Marshall was a possession receiver, and still is a possession receiver, that cannot get the job done inside the 10 yard line.
Between the 20s, he could get the ball, but come up with game winning plays?
Uh.....no.

Called that whole post dead on.

To many throws to get those very few TDs and toss were non exstent in the red zone.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 10:07 AM
And Id have to argue that our offensive line was an even bigger factor than TD.

That offensive line is one of the most unheralded works of art in the halls of NFL lore.

And TD, Elway, Smith, McCaffrey and Sharpe all owe homage to those bulls, and to their mentor Alex Gibbs.
I agree... which when you think about it, makes the draftig of our OL that much better.


Marshall was a possession receiver, and still is a possession receiver, that cannot get the job done inside the 10 yard line.

Between the 20s, he could get the ball, but come up with game winning plays?


Uh.....no.

Uh.. No.

For one, its a complete falsity that Marshall can't get the job done inside the ten. Two, what exactly defines a 'possession' receiver?? For he has more catches, more yards, and more TDs than Johnson at this point in their career. So Johnson averages more yards per catch....but.... what else?

I guess if you have one RB that has more carries, more yards, and more TDS than a RB that has more ypc, he's a "possession" RB?? :confused: Seems that production is production is production.

Trying to minimize what he has proved to be is silly.

Even WIZ used to complain that our QBs would "force" the ball into Marshall despite being double, triple, and his infamous "quadruple" covered. If the other team is putting that much resources into covering Marshall, wouldn't you say that he's changing how the defense plays? They are watching HIM... why? Because he CAN make plays like he has shown to make, taking it to the house and BEATING Corners time and time again.

The opposing DC's, that know MUCH MUCH more about football than those of us here, are pushing their defensive resources to stop an individual player..... its not because THEY are labeling him something like "possession that can't get it done."

TXBRONC
05-16-2011, 10:24 AM
I agree... which when you think about it, makes the draftig of our OL that much better.



Uh.. No.

For one, its a complete falsity that Marshall can't get the job done inside the ten. Two, what exactly defines a 'possession' receiver?? For he has more catches, more yards, and more TDs than Johnson at this point in their career. So Johnson averages more yards per catch....but.... what else?

I guess if you have one RB that has more carries, more yards, and more TDS than a RB that has more ypc, he's a "possession" RB?? :confused: Seems that production is production is production.

Trying to minimize what he has proved to be is silly.

Even WIZ used to complain that our QBs would "force" the ball into Marshall despite being double, triple, and his infamous "quadruple" covered. If the other team is putting that much resources into covering Marshall, wouldn't you say that he's changing how the defense plays? They are watching HIM... why? Because he CAN make plays like he has shown to make, taking it to the house and BEATING Corners time and time again.

The opposing DC's, that know MUCH MUCH more about football than those of us here, are pushing their defensive resources to stop an individual player..... its not because THEY are labeling him something like "possession that can't get it done."

If Miami ever gets a decent starting quarterback I think we'll see Marshall put up the kind of numbers that he did in Denver. Before people start trying to revise history they ought to look at Rod Smith's stats. Only twice in Smith's career did he put up double digit touchdowns. I guess he disappeared in the red zone too.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 10:29 AM
If Miami ever gets a decent starting quarterback I think we'll see Marshall put up the kind of numbers that he did in Denver. Before people start trying to revise history they ought to look at Rod Smith's stats. Only twice in Smith's career did he put up double digit touchdowns. I guess he disappeared in the red zone too.

I think most will be surprised how few WRs put up double digit TDs, and even those WRs don't do it often.

TXBRONC
05-16-2011, 10:39 AM
I think most will be surprised how few WRs put up double digit TDs, and even those WRs don't do it often.

I'm saying this to bait anyone into an argument but I think some people have a difficult time separating there emotional dislike for him with what he has actually produced on the field. I don't condone his off the field behavior but facts are facts he's a very good receiver.

I also find it ironic that Marshall can be ripped on for his off the field behavior but the crickets are chirping when it comes to Parrish Cox who is charged with two charges of felony sexual assault. He may already be at the point of an 8 to 16 game vacation once football resumes.

BigDaddyBronco
05-16-2011, 10:54 AM
I'm saying this to bait anyone into an argument but I think some people have a difficult time separating there emotional dislike for him with what he has actually produced on the field. I don't condone his off the field behavior but facts are facts he's a very good receiver.

I also find it ironic that Marshall can be ripped on for his off the field behavior but the crickets are chirping when it comes to Parrish Cox.
Well, to be honest, Marshall has a body of work to pull from where Perrish Cox has one incident and we don't even know if he is guilty or not. Cox's transgressions in college were due to missing curfew not beating his girlfriend, so if the rape case against him is not true, the two can't even be compared.

Marshall is a beast, his only big drawbacks as a player are his hands (he drops too many balls) and his speed. But he makes up for it with his size and running after the catch. But it is impossible to separate his health issues and off the field stuff from his play. If he isn't on the field half 25% to 50% of the time, then he isn't worth the contract he is getting.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Marshall is a beast, his only big drawbacks as a player are his hands (he drops too many balls) and his speed. But he makes up for it with his size and running after the catch. But it is impossible to separate his health issues and off the field stuff from his play. If he isn't on the field half 25% to 50% of the time, then he isn't worth the contract he is getting.

He hasn't missed that many games due to health problems.

TXBRONC
05-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Well, to be honest, Marshall has a body of work to pull from where Perrish Cox has one incident and we don't even know if he is guilty or not. Cox's transgressions in college were due to missing curfew not beating his girlfriend, so if the rape case against him is not true, the two can't even be compared.

Marshall is a beast, his only big drawbacks as a player are his hands (he drops too many balls) and his speed. But he makes up for it with his size and running after the catch. But it is impossible to separate his health issues and off the field stuff from his play. If he isn't on the field half 25% to 50% of the time, then he isn't worth the contract he is getting.

The very first that Marshall ever had a run in he didn't much of any latitude that I can recall.

IIRC Cox came to Denver with some off field baggage from his college days.

jhns
05-16-2011, 11:25 AM
I wouod much rather have a WR putting up HOF numbers than draft picks. Talent is always better than picks. Just ask McDaniels. Or you could watch the Broncos worst ever NFL season...

Not only was he a great player, he also was one of the members of that great young offense that would go out and practice in the offseason. Dedicated and talented, everything McDaniels hated.

jhns
05-16-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm saying this to bait anyone into an argument but I think some people have a difficult time separating there emotional dislike for him with what he has actually produced on the field. I don't condone his off the field behavior but facts are facts he's a very good receiver.

I also find it ironic that Marshall can be ripped on for his off the field behavior but the crickets are chirping when it comes to Parrish Cox who is charged with two charges of felony sexual assault. He may already be at the point of an 8 to 16 game vacation once football resumes.

What I kike is when people claim they can't like someone that does what he does and then point to guys like Smith as the example of who they do like. Rod Smith got arrestdd for woman abuse just like Marshall(who has never been convicted).

robert ethan
05-16-2011, 11:33 AM
I wouod much rather have a WR putting up HOF numbers than draft picks. Talent is always better than picks. Just ask McDaniels. Or you could watch the Broncos worst ever NFL season...

Not only was he a great player, he also was one of the members of that great young offense that would go out and practice in the offseason. Dedicated and talented, everything McDaniels hated.Marshall scored 3 TDs last season. Tebow who they got with one of the draft picks, (substantially), was responsible for 11 TDs. I think you could say that the Broncos got a good return on the deal in the very first season.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 11:46 AM
Marshall scored 3 TDs last season. Tebow who they got with one of the draft picks, (substantially), was responsible for 11 TDs. I think you could say that the Broncos got a good return on the deal in the very first season.

Very few QBs, or RBs, don't outscore WRs. Thats not exactly saying much. Thats not a smart way to compare things.

We traded away a player that is one of the BEST at his position, and in return got a QB that is considered to be a HUGE reach and may not even start his second year in the NFL. That is NOT good return.

jhns
05-16-2011, 11:48 AM
Marshall scored 3 TDs last season. Tebow who they got with one of the draft picks, (substantially), was responsible for 11 TDs. I think you could say that the Broncos got a good return on the deal in the very first season.

I would say it is a little easier to get TDs from the QB position. Wouldn't you? This offense is less talented without Marshall. What he does on some other team is also not what he would do here. He won about as many games for us two seasons ago as we won total this season. Really, if we went for talent over picks, we would still have Cutler and Tebow wouldn't matter. Even if these picks develop, it is taking years to get the talent level of this team back to what it was before the trade.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 12:09 PM
Marshall was a possession receiver, and still is a possession receiver, that cannot get the job done inside the 10 yard line.

Between the 20s, he could get the ball, but come up with game winning plays?



Uh... no.

MgEYUZaUItk

rcsodak
05-16-2011, 12:16 PM
I agree... which when you think about it, makes the draftig of our OL that much better.



Uh.. No.

For one, its a complete falsity that Marshall can't get the job done inside the ten. Two, what exactly defines a 'possession' receiver?? For he has more catches, more yards, and more TDs than Johnson at this point in their career. So Johnson averages more yards per catch....but.... what else?

I guess if you have one RB that has more carries, more yards, and more TDS than a RB that has more ypc, he's a "possession" RB?? :confused: Seems that production is production is production.

Trying to minimize what he has proved to be is silly.

Even WIZ used to complain that our QBs would "force" the ball into Marshall despite being double, triple, and his infamous "quadruple" covered. If the other team is putting that much resources into covering Marshall, wouldn't you say that he's changing how the defense plays? They are watching HIM... why? Because he CAN make plays like he has shown to make, taking it to the house and BEATING Corners time and time again.

The opposing DC's, that know MUCH MUCH more about football than those of us here, are pushing their defensive resources to stop an individual player..... its not because THEY are labeling him something like "possession that can't get it done."

How many games was he responsible for changing a loss into a win?

He was treated like every other #1 wr, and couldn't get into the endzone. Period

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-16-2011, 01:01 PM
Uh... no.

MgEYUZaUItk

Man, he sure was fun to watch.

TXBRONC
05-16-2011, 01:34 PM
How many games was he responsible for changing a loss into a win?

He was treated like every other #1 wr, and couldn't get into the endzone. Period

That's very poor argument. How many games was Lloyd responsible for changing from loss into a win? The short answer is none.

rcsodak
05-16-2011, 01:51 PM
That's very poor argument. How many games was Lloyd responsible for changing from loss into a win? The short answer is none.
I thought this was about bm, tx.

Who has called lloyd a" game changer"?

robert ethan
05-16-2011, 02:27 PM
Very few QBs, or RBs, don't outscore WRs. Thats not exactly saying much. Thats not a smart way to compare things.

We traded away a player that is one of the BEST at his position, and in return got a QB that is considered to be a HUGE reach and may not even start his second year in the NFL. That is NOT good return.

Tebow scored 6 of those TDs rushing. I think Marshall was originally acquired with a extra pick they got from Washington by trading the Redskins their 1st rounder the previous year so they could draft Jason Campbell. As a rookie Marshall had just 20 catches and 2 TDs. At that point you might have said it didn't look good for the Broncos. Tebow is 5 years younger than Marshall and accomplished a lot more as a rookie in the NFL. What leads you to think that will change in the future?

rcsodak
05-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Anybody that says a good wr is harder to find than a good qb, is...... :confused:

In any one draft, you'll have 50 wr's that over time can most likely play and contribute in the nfl. Qb's? You're lucky to find a handful, save PS/TC bodies.

I enjoyed watching bm, but when it became obvious to almost everybody that he wasn't worth the risk, cap/roster wise, its easy to let him go.
The only trade I fault mcd with, is ph. But until he's proven over time, the same reasoning held over lloyd's year, the jury is still out. The same can be said about BQuinn, actually. Afterall, Orton threw 3ints his first PreSeason game and he was supposedly getting most of the reps.

robert ethan
05-16-2011, 03:48 PM
Anybody that says a good wr is harder to find than a good qb, is...... :confused:

In any one draft, you'll have 50 wr's that over time can most likely play and contribute in the nfl. Qb's? You're lucky to find a handful, save PS/TC bodies.

I enjoyed watching bm, but when it became obvious to almost everybody that he wasn't worth the risk, cap/roster wise, its easy to let him go.
The only trade I fault mcd with, is ph. But until he's proven over time, the same reasoning held over lloyd's year, the jury is still out. The same can be said about BQuinn, actually. Afterall, Orton threw 3ints his first PreSeason game and he was supposedly getting most of the reps.

Quinn came out of the same draft as Kevin Kolb, but rated much higher. He has similar career stats to this point, with a better TD/Int ratio than Kolb. Brady is a few months younger and has played for poorer teams so far. Yet Kolb is supposed to be worth a first round draft pick.:rolleyes:

rcsodak
05-16-2011, 03:55 PM
Quinn came out of the same draft as Kevin Kolb, but rated much higher. He has similar career stats to this point, with a better TD/Int ratio than Kolb. Brady is a few months younger and has played for poorer teams so far. Yet Kolb is supposed to be worth a first round draft pick.:rolleyes:
I see kolb being less than schaub, who I also see as nothing special.
All those yards, in a qb friendly system, with the #1 wr, and nothing to show for it.

WARHORSE
05-16-2011, 04:02 PM
I agree... which when you think about it, makes the draftig of our OL that much better.



Uh.. No.

For one, its a complete falsity that Marshall can't get the job done inside the ten. Two, what exactly defines a 'possession' receiver?? For he has more catches, more yards, and more TDs than Johnson at this point in their career. So Johnson averages more yards per catch....but.... what else?

I guess if you have one RB that has more carries, more yards, and more TDS than a RB that has more ypc, he's a "possession" RB?? :confused: Seems that production is production is production.

Trying to minimize what he has proved to be is silly.

Even WIZ used to complain that our QBs would "force" the ball into Marshall despite being double, triple, and his infamous "quadruple" covered. If the other team is putting that much resources into covering Marshall, wouldn't you say that he's changing how the defense plays? They are watching HIM... why? Because he CAN make plays like he has shown to make, taking it to the house and BEATING Corners time and time again.

The opposing DC's, that know MUCH MUCH more about football than those of us here, are pushing their defensive resources to stop an individual player..... its not because THEY are labeling him something like "possession that can't get it done."


Look up 'possession receiver'....;)


Brandon can catch the ball on the 10, and muscle his way into the endzone.....sometimes.

But he does not have the speed that forces safeties over the top, nor can you toss a fade to him in the corner of the endzone and expect him to come down with it.

He is NOT a dominant threat in the redzone, thats why hes always singled up down there in spite of his ability.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 04:36 PM
Look up 'possession receiver'....;)


Brandon can catch the ball on the 10, and muscle his way into the endzone.....sometimes.

But he does not have the speed that forces safeties over the top, nor can you toss a fade to him in the corner of the endzone and expect him to come down with it.

He is NOT a dominant threat in the redzone, thats why hes always singled up down there in spite of his ability.

You are showing some ignorance here, and complete blindness. This just is not true in any sense of the word. I don't have to look up "possession" receiver, because there is no definite definition to the word.. thats the point.

Watch that reel I just posted, and think about re-evaluating your comments. They just don't make sense in the least.

TXBRONC
05-16-2011, 04:39 PM
You are showing some ignorance here, and complete blindness. This just is not true in any sense of the word. I don't have to look up "possession" receiver, because there is no definite definition to the word.. thats the point.

Watch that reel I just posted, and think about re-evaluating your comments. They just don't make sense in the least.

As I said some people have a difficult time separating their emotions from actual facts.

rcsodak
05-16-2011, 04:58 PM
A possession receiver is generally the more sure-handed of the two types and is used to keep possession of the ball by making catches that gain first down less yardage; but he usually lacks the speed to attack a defensive backfield.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football_positions.

Pretty common sense to me.

I sure would like to know how many of bm's receptions were within 5yds +/- of the LOS.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 05:00 PM
How many games was he responsible for changing a loss into a win?

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous questions ever asked. How many games has ANY receiver been "responsible" for changing a loss into a win??? Is there even such thing as changing a loss into a win?? :confused: How does one do this? For if its a loss, its a loss. If a team is close enough to catch a game winning TD, was there ever a losing team before that point?

Our team was one of the very WORSE in the NFL at converting 3rd downs. Do you suppose having a stud WR on the outside that is known for beating single and double teams would have made a difference? If he's making a difference in converting 3rd downs, and keeping the offense on the field... is that changing the game? Is it helping our defense by not having to be on the field all the time? Would it help our special teams by not having to punt from deep in our own territory all the time? Would it help even put up field goals if the offense could simply convert some third downs and actually MOVE the ball? Does having a WR like that open things up for other positions, other players, and even the running game since they can't stack the front? Does that change the game?

If you have to score 5 TDs to win a game, which one was the most important... the first or the last?? Did the reciever that caught the last TD "change a loss into a win?" Was it the guy that caught the first, second or third?? So when does a receiver ever "responsible" for changing a loss into a win???

The Giants beat the Patriots in one of the most exciting and largest underdog victories in Super Bowl history. What receiver "changed the game?" Plaxico Burress that caught the TD with :39 left on the clock, or was it Tyree that caught the third down pass? Catching that first down pass on top of his helmet changed the game, but did he change a "loss into a win?"

The absurdity of the question just goes on and on. Changing the complexity of the game does not mean you have to catch game-winning TDs at the end with the whistle. Its asinine to even suggest such a thing.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 05:01 PM
Man, he sure was fun to watch.

Yes, big Al, he most certainly was.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 05:12 PM
Tebow scored 6 of those TDs rushing. I think Marshall was originally acquired with a extra pick they got from Washington by trading the Redskins their 1st rounder the previous year so they could draft Jason Campbell. As a rookie Marshall had just 20 catches and 2 TDs. At that point you might have said it didn't look good for the Broncos. Tebow is 5 years younger than Marshall and accomplished a lot more as a rookie in the NFL. What leads you to think that will change in the future?

You are still missing the point, but I'm not surprised.

It doesn't matter if Tebow continues to grow, you aren't making sense by comparing the number of TDs the QB scored to the number a WR scored..... not matter how he did them. The QB touches the ball on nearly EVERY snap.

There isn't a WR in the NFL that outscores the QB. Tebow rushed for TDs, and he was put into the game with the intention of purely running and NOT throwing... so what? Whats your point?

I'm not comparing QBs to WRs.. I compare QBs to QBs and WRs to WRs. I want my QB to be more effective than other QBs, not other WRs. I want my WRs to be better than other team's WRs. I don't expect WRs to scrore more than QBs, and then figure its smart to trade away one of the best WRs so I can take a chance on a QB in the draft.

Now of course, if Tebow grows to be an incredible QB and tops in the NFL, there is no comparison as to whats more important to the team. However, there isn't any indication that we couldn't still have gotten Tebow AND kept Marshall.... but thats another discussion.

As it is right now, saying we did better by comparing the number of TDs Marshall scored this year in Miami to the number or TDs Tebow had this year in Denver.... is overtly silly.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 05:16 PM
I see ___ being less than _____, who I also see as nothing special. All those yards, in a qb friendly system, with the #1 wr, and nothing to show for it.

Take out the names about another QB and its the definition of irony that this poster defends Orton.

rcsodak
05-16-2011, 05:17 PM
How many games was he responsible for changing a loss into a win?

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous questions ever asked. How many games has ANY receiver been "responsible" for changing a loss into a win??? Is there even such thing as changing a loss into a win?? :confused: How does one do this? For if its a loss, its a loss. If a team is close enough to catch a game winning TD, was there ever a losing team before that point?

Our team was one of the very WORSE in the NFL at converting 3rd downs. Do you suppose having a stud WR on the outside that is known for beating single and double teams would have made a difference? If he's making a difference in converting 3rd downs, and keeping the offense on the field... is that changing the game? Is it helping our defense by not having to be on the field all the time? Would it help our special teams by not having to punt from deep in our own territory all the time? Would it help even put up field goals if the offense could simply convert some third downs and actually MOVE the ball? Does having a WR like that open things up for other positions, other players, and even the running game since they can't stack the front? Does that change the game?

If you have to score 5 TDs to win a game, which one was the most important... the first or the last?? Did the reciever that caught the last TD "change a loss into a win?" Was it the guy that caught the first, second or third?? So when does a receiver ever "responsible" for changing a loss into a win???

The Giants beat the Patriots in one of the most exciting and largest underdog victories in Super Bowl history. What receiver "changed the game?" Plaxico Burress that caught the TD with :39 left on the clock, or was it Tyree that caught the third down pass? Catching that first down pass on top of his helmet changed the game, but did he change a "loss into a win?"

The absurdity of the question just goes on and on. Changing the complexity of the game does not mean you have to catch game-winning TDs at the end with the whistle. Its asinine to even suggest such a thing.
Thanks for proving how absurd the 'game changer' moniker is. :coffee:

robert ethan
05-16-2011, 05:42 PM
You are still missing the point, but I'm not surprised.

It doesn't matter if Tebow continues to grow, you aren't making sense by comparing the number of TDs the QB scored to the number a WR scored..... not matter how he did them. The QB touches the ball on nearly EVERY snap.

There isn't a WR in the NFL that outscores the QB. Tebow rushed for TDs, and he was put into the game with the intention of purely running and NOT throwing... so what? Whats your point?

I'm not comparing QBs to WRs.. I compare QBs to QBs and WRs to WRs. I want my QB to be more effective than other QBs, not other WRs. I want my WRs to be better than other team's WRs. I don't expect WRs to scrore more than QBs, and then figure its smart to trade away one of the best WRs so I can take a chance on a QB in the draft.

Now of course, if Tebow grows to be an incredible QB and tops in the NFL, there is no comparison as to whats more important to the team. However, there isn't any indication that we couldn't still have gotten Tebow AND kept Marshall.... but thats another discussion.

As it is right now, saying we did better by comparing the number of TDs Marshall scored this year in Miami to the number or TDs Tebow had this year in Denver.... is overtly silly.

But if you make a trade and want to judge it, you have to compare the respective impact of the players involved to this point. No one has any trouble excorciating Josh McDaniels for the Peyton Hillis/Brady Quinn trade to this point. They play different positions, but obviously Hillis made a huge impact last season and Quinn made none. Advantage Browns to this point. There is no such huge gap in the respective contributions of Marshall and Tebow last season,even though Marshall is older and an experienced vet.

Ravage!!!
05-16-2011, 07:33 PM
But if you make a trade and want to judge it, you have to compare the respective impact of the players involved to this point. No one has any trouble excorciating Josh McDaniels for the Peyton Hillis/Brady Quinn trade to this point. They play different positions, but obviously Hillis made a huge impact last season and Quinn made none. Advantage Browns to this point. There is no such huge gap in the respective contributions of Marshall and Tebow last season,even though Marshall is older and an experienced vet.

Fair enough... although I don't think the "vet vs rook" thing has much to do with it. It always comes down to how good the respective player is to the rest of the NFL.

Quinn wasn't thought of by many coming out of college, and has proved to be less. Hillis was a fan favorite and we saw what he was capable of.

Tebow is a reach, while Marshall may not be loved is still one of the very best in the NFL. As of RIGHT NOW, this team is worse off without Marshall and with Tebow than the other way around. Marshall is still one of the best in the NFL at his position, and Tebow is absolutely not. He's not even as good as Orton to this point.

Comparing the TDs to one another is just not a good NFL way to "compare trades".. because QBs will always score more TDs, even when they are bad ones. But getting a bad QB (not saying Tebow is, yet) for a very good WR is NOT a good trade, despite the bad QB 'scoring' more TDs.

Will that change? Maybe. But it's not like Marshall hasn't proved to be a good WR for more than one year. If Tebow turns out to be a good NFL QB, then we could say that Tebow for Marshall was a good trade.... but then, it really wasn't a trade that was one for the other.

robert ethan
05-16-2011, 08:08 PM
Marshall had just 20 catches and 2 TDs in his rookie season. When he was the same age as Tebow. Certainly Tim's performance AS A ROOKIE is more impressive. Not to mention the fact that quarterback is a far more valuable position than wide receiver or running back. Nor to bring in any potential contribution from Orlando Franklin along the way. Receivers are not that hard to come by if you have a decent system and quarterback. Look at Brandon Lloyd.

jhildebrand
05-16-2011, 08:30 PM
But he does not have the speed that forces safeties over the top,

Marshall is always bracketed. Not really sure what you are seeing.



nor can you toss a fade to him in the corner of the endzone and expect him to come down with it.


???? :confused:

TXBRONC
05-16-2011, 08:41 PM
Marshall is always bracketed. Not really sure what you are seeing.



???? :confused:

It doesn't jive with reality.

MNPatsFan
05-17-2011, 10:35 AM
. . . . while Marshall may not be loved is still one of the very best in the NFL. . . . . Marshall is still one of the best in the NFL at his position . . . . .Rav, I am just curious what you mean when you say one of the very best in the NFL?:confused:

Do you mean top 5, top 10, top 20, or something else?

Ravage!!!
05-17-2011, 10:45 AM
Rav, I am just curious what you mean when you say one of the very best in the NFL?:confused:

Do you mean top 5, top 10, top 20, or something else?

Thats all relative to everyone, but I feel he's a top 6-7... depending on what kind of receiver you like. Some had this discussion on the boards and ranking WRs. Some put guys like Desean Jackson way up on the list... I don't.

Without actually putting names on paper, I think a top 7.

Lonestar
05-17-2011, 01:08 PM
Rav, I am just curious what you mean when you say one of the very best in the NFL?:confused:

Do you mean top 5, top 10, top 20, or something else?

I suspect he means best at being a headcase with that I would agree.
Best at knowing his way around NFL hq that is a Roger, pardon that pun.
Best at being the most targeted WR in the NFL.
Best at dropping balls.
Best at Requiring more passes than his teammates.
Best at yac maybe.

When you have tied your rep to a couple of players hard to come off those guys and admit they are not so great.

Lonestar
05-17-2011, 01:44 PM
Best at getting the highest contract and guarantee.

Perhaps one of the best at having a suspension haning over his head.

Absolutely the top guy at bitch slapping.

One of the best at telling the fans he screwed the pooch and will learn from it.

Top guy in DUIs.

Top guy at not learning from past mistakes.

He might be the equivalent to being Jeff George at WR. I guess whoever named him baby TO realy hit the nail on the head.

Ravage!!!
05-17-2011, 02:43 PM
Interestingly enough, this goes to show you just how much someone makes judgments based on feelings when they obviously don't know the facts. T.O. has never been charged with any of these, and has what some will call a HoF career. Hard to call that a Jeff George.

I guess Marshall isn't the only one that can say they don't learn from past mistakes.

Northman
05-17-2011, 02:50 PM
Interestingly enough, this goes to show you just how much someone makes judgments based on feelings when they obviously don't know the facts. T.O. has never been charged with any of these, and has what some will call a HoF career. Hard to call that a Jeff George.

I guess Marshall isn't the only one that can say they don't learn from past mistakes.

Yea Rav, just take your emotion out of it. :lol:

Bosco
05-17-2011, 04:47 PM
Marshall is always bracketed. Not really sure what you are seeing. Lots of receivers...even the slower possession types...get bracketed from time to time depending on the coverage call. That technique is not exclusive to defending speedsters.

When Marshall is bracketed, it's almost always a horizontal bracket meant to cover the deep in and comeback routes that he excels out.

jhildebrand
05-17-2011, 08:08 PM
Lots of receivers...even the slower possession types...get bracketed from time to time depending on the coverage call. That technique is not exclusive to defending speedsters.

When Marshall is bracketed, it's almost always a horizontal bracket meant to cover the deep in and comeback routes that he excels out.

A Bosco sighting? :confused:

St. Louis boards not treating you well? :lol:

I am just teasing, Bosco. It is good to see you back. As for this Marshall post, he is always bracketed. The DB covering him almost always had help over the top. Its been that way for years now. I only mentioned it because WAR was being less than honest in his post.

Anyway, since you are here, can you tell me again why Maroney is such a great value for a 4th rounder? :confused: I was :mad: when it happened and that feeling still hasn't subsided. I know you were one of a handful telling/selling me it was a good move.

Good to see you back.

TXBRONC
05-17-2011, 08:58 PM
A Bosco sighting? :confused:

St. Louis boards not treating you well? :lol:

I am just teasing, Bosco. It is good to see you back. As for this Marshall post, he is always bracketed. The DB covering him almost always had help over the top. Its been that way for years now. I only mentioned it because WAR was being less than honest in his post.

Anyway, since you are here, can you tell me again why Maroney is such a great value for a 4th rounder? :confused: I was :mad: when it happened and that feeling still hasn't subsided. I know you were one of a handful telling/selling me it was a good move.

Good to see you back.

There just isn't a good explanation.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-17-2011, 09:25 PM
A Bosco sighting? :confused:

St. Louis boards not treating you well? :lol:

I am just teasing, Bosco. It is good to see you back. As for this Marshall post, he is always bracketed. The DB covering him almost always had help over the top. Its been that way for years now. I only mentioned it because WAR was being less than honest in his post.

Anyway, since you are here, can you tell me again why Maroney is such a great value for a 4th rounder? :confused: I was :mad: when it happened and that feeling still hasn't subsided. I know you were one of a handful telling/selling me it was a good move.

Good to see you back.

I think Maroney got paid $50,000 for every yard he gained! :lol:

TXBRONC
05-17-2011, 09:37 PM
I think Maroney got paid $50,000 for every yard he gained! :lol:

At least Maroney did something. Jarvis Green got paid to be cut. :tsk:

Bosco
05-17-2011, 09:49 PM
A Bosco sighting? :confused:

St. Louis boards not treating you well? :lol:

I am just teasing, Bosco. It is good to see you back. As for this Marshall post, he is always bracketed. The DB covering him almost always had help over the top. Its been that way for years now. I only mentioned it because WAR was being less than honest in his post.

Anyway, since you are here, can you tell me again why Maroney is such a great value for a 4th rounder? :confused: I was :mad: when it happened and that feeling still hasn't subsided. I know you were one of a handful telling/selling me it was a good move.

Good to see you back.

Yes, the prodigal son has returned. :D Been a pretty crazy couple months for me and with the offseason lockout drama I've been pretty blah when it comes to football. I meant to get back here for the draft but I was in a car accident that week and was laid up on the couch.

Anyways, there is definitely no doubt that Marshall gets bracketed often. When we played the Pats in 2008 Belichick had him bracketed almost 100% of the time, only backing off that when we managed to get Marshall in the slot against their cover two setup. Oakland used almost the exact same scheme later that year as well, much to the frustration of Bates and Cutler. To date, it's been the most effective way to play him.

As for Maroney, if you want a reason to keep him now I simply point you to the return of the zone blocking system. Maroney was pretty average in New England's angle blocking system but he was an elite running back in Minnesota's zone blocking offense and was considered a top 15 pick going into that draft. You bring him back as Moreno's backup and I bet he looks like a completely different player.

On a side note, a move to the greater Denver area is quite possibly in my future. :cool:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-17-2011, 11:36 PM
At least Maroney did something. Jarvis Green got paid to be cut. :tsk:

Is that one-upping me, or is it salt in the wound?

Either way I don't like it. :lol:

robert ethan
05-17-2011, 11:53 PM
All of the players they got for draft picks are bonus, really. Orton has played Cutler dead even through two seasons, and Lloyd was probably better than Marshall last season. If Tebow beats out Orton for the starter job, that means Kyle will likely bring a couple more draft picks to add to the pile.:cool:

Juriga72
05-18-2011, 06:36 AM
All of the players they got for draft picks are bonus, really. Orton has played Cutler dead even through two seasons, and Lloyd was probably better than Marshall last season. If Tebow beats out Orton for the starter job, that means Kyle will likely bring a couple more draft picks to add to the pile.:cool:

Dead even? wow.... Ok. lets see...

Jay-(4) come from behind wins this year

Kyle- 3 wins

Jay-"Playoff win that he could never lead any team to"

Kyle-benched for poor play


Yup...."Dead even"

Lonestar
05-18-2011, 11:50 AM
All of the players they got for draft picks are bonus, really. Orton has played Cutler dead even through two seasons, and Lloyd was probably better than Marshall last season. If Tebow beats out Orton for the starter job, that means Kyle will likely bring a couple more draft picks to add to the pile.:cool:

Better put the asbestos suit on because the jay lovers will be out in force.

The only thing that Orton was not was on a winning team. Even though jay did little for all of those wins this past year, those that ranks QBs will insist that means more than other stats. Even if he did not actually win those games consistently. Without the D and ST they would have most likely has the same or worse record than we did.

Now not all of that is jays fault his OL has stunk it up the past decade or so and he has very little help in the WR area.

If they get those areas fixed all they have to do is hope like hell they do not play rivers as he owns jays head.

TXBRONC
05-18-2011, 11:53 AM
Dead even? wow.... Ok. lets see...

Jay-(4) come from behind wins this year

Kyle- 3 wins

Jay-"Playoff win that he could never lead any team to"

Kyle-benched for poor play


Yup...."Dead even"

Maybe they were dead even in jacks or something like because sure wasn't quarterbacking.

King87
05-18-2011, 12:36 PM
Summary time...

Cutler is better than Orton. Orton is not a bad QB. Cutler is kind of a tool who gets a little too much hate. Orton is just a dude who gets waay too much hate, or love.

And, in other news, this bacon omelet is fantastic. By omelet, I really mean scrambled eggs with half a pound of bacon in the middle of it.

Tned
05-18-2011, 12:39 PM
Summary time...

Cutler is better than Orton. Orton is not a bad QB. Cutler is kind of a tool who gets a little too much hate. Orton is just a dude who gets waay too much hate, or love.

And, in other news, this bacon omelet is fantastic. By omelet, I really mean scrambled eggs with half a pound of bacon in the middle of it.

In summary of the summary --- I miss Plummer. Granted, he folded like a compact umbrella on a sunny day as soon as he had competition, but he was still fun to watch.

rcsodak
05-18-2011, 01:27 PM
I miss jake and his winning records.

Ravage!!!
05-18-2011, 01:57 PM
I for one don't miss Plummer.

robert ethan
05-18-2011, 02:56 PM
Dead even? wow.... Ok. lets see...

Jay-(4) come from behind wins this year

Kyle- 3 wins

Jay-"Playoff win that he could never lead any team to"

Kyle-benched for poor play


Yup...."Dead even"The fact that Broncos had the WORST defense in the league last year, and the Bears one of the best had nothing to do with that. Orton has had a better passer rating than Fatty Neckblubber both of the past two years. His teammates don't despise Kyle, either.

Juriga72
05-18-2011, 03:09 PM
The fact that Broncos had the WORST defense in the league last year, and the Bears one of the best had nothing to do with that. Orton has had a better passer rating than Fatty Neckblubber both of the past two years. His teammates don't despise Kyle, either.

You mean that because we were losing so badly....... we had to THROW the ball more?

wow...... Oh wait I guess when you throw pick sixes you lose more games.

3-13 versus 10-5 which is better?

Jay in 3rd system in 3 years has nothing to do with it either right?

Juriga72
05-18-2011, 03:21 PM
I miss jake and his winning records.

I miss the #2 running game and the #2 defense he played with