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Zweems56
05-04-2011, 10:59 AM
Well... today it officially begins.


@Julius_Thomas what's up brother! Welcome to the fam! Where are you living right now? Send me a DM with your number...setting up workouts

Edit: Also, I apologize in advance. I'm not big on a million Tebow threads myself, but I think this one might actually be relatively important as the future of our quarterback situation unravels.

rcsodak
05-04-2011, 11:17 AM
:tsk:

Dzone
05-04-2011, 11:21 AM
Thats why people love Tebow. He met Von Miller yesterday and immediately said "Lets go workout"
Unlike Orton, who invariably said "Lets go to a strip joint and get drunk"...:laugh::lol:

rcsodak
05-04-2011, 11:29 AM
So much for the bash Orton hiatus.......

Shananahan
05-04-2011, 12:00 PM
I love this. It's too bad Orton will never be worth as much as he once was, but it's a small price to pay if this leads to the team coming together under Tebow.

UnderArmour
05-04-2011, 12:03 PM
I wonder if Tebow invited Kyle Orton to come.

TXBRONC
05-04-2011, 12:05 PM
I wonder if Tebow invited Kyle Orton to come.

It wouldn't surprise me if he did.

vandammage13
05-04-2011, 01:56 PM
Orton knows his days in Denver are done...why would he waste his time developing chemistry with guys he won't be a teamate of when he can go party it up at a bar/strip joint?

Lonestar
05-04-2011, 02:04 PM
Why the hate and discontent for Orton who was one of our better players last yer and without him the choice this year would have been cam newton most likely.

BEcause we would have less than 4 wins.

He is not Elway nor cutler (thank God he was gone) but a damned good QB consider the O he had around him.

Or should say the oline and RB format of the year. And well the D thanks is why most of the draft went to fixing the "secondary" holes on it.

BroncoStud
05-04-2011, 02:38 PM
Why the hate and discontent for Orton who was one of our better players last yer and without him the choice this year would have been cam newton most likely.

BEcause we would have less than 4 wins.

He is not Elway nor cutler (thank God he was gone) but a damned good QB consider the O he had around him.

Or should say the oline and RB format of the year. And well the D thanks is why most of the draft went to fixing the "secondary" holes on it.

Calling Orton a "damned good QB" is a bit of a stretch. He isn't horrible but he is rather pedestrian and certainly not a leader. Hopefully he'll fetch us a decent player or draft pick.

Dzone
05-04-2011, 03:01 PM
So much for the bash Orton hiatus.......
Sorry I wasnt aware of the hiatus ...I thought part of the reason for the board was to trash Orton:beer::laugh::laugh:...Its all in fun anyway:shocked:

Juriga72
05-04-2011, 03:04 PM
Calling Orton a "damned good QB" is a bit of a stretch. He isn't horrible but he is rather pedestrian and certainly not a leader. Hopefully he'll fetch us a decent player or draft pick.

IF only the NFl was just 2 downs. Orton would be a "Sure Fire HOF qb", but alas....... that darn third down.

You know where his CAREER third down qb rating ( which Orton fans love to point out is the main way to judge a qb) is 60.2

thats for his 6 year career.

lets go slowly for those who somehow still think "Orton is a damn good qb"

Guess what these numbers are for Kyle...:
47.4
0
56.4
70.5
86.9
58.0

nevcraw
05-04-2011, 04:13 PM
Why the hate and discontent for Orton who was one of our better players last yer and without him the choice this year would have been cam newton most likely.

BEcause we would have less than 4 wins.

He is not Elway nor cutler (thank God he was gone) but a damned good QB consider the O he had around him.

Or should say the oline and RB format of the year. And well the D thanks is why most of the draft went to fixing the "secondary" holes on it.

Orton is my favoritye back up in the league.. I hope we keep him in the postion he is suited for..

BroncoJoe
05-04-2011, 05:05 PM
Why the hate and discontent for Orton who was one of our better players last yer and without him the choice this year would have been cam newton most likely.

BEcause we would have less than 4 wins.

He is not Elway nor cutler (thank God he was gone) but a damned good QB consider the O he had around him.

Or should say the oline and RB format of the year. And well the D thanks is why most of the draft went to fixing the "secondary" holes on it.

Now that's comedy! Thanks, JR!

ForgettingBrandonMarshall
05-04-2011, 05:10 PM
As for Orton, my opinion of him was that he's nothing spectacular. I don't see him as a QB who's going to win us a championship. However, back to the OT, it's good to hear about our guys getting together like some of the other teams in this league and working out on their own. I don't know how much it actually helps, but it's still good to hear.

rcsodak
05-04-2011, 06:24 PM
At least now, more guys can get injured together.

Lonestar
05-04-2011, 07:50 PM
Yeah Orton is not a probowler might not lead the broncos to the promised land but given an OL that can protect him and a scent running game neither if which he had last year when he was playing. He might surprise all the jay lovers.

The only reason Tebow looked decent in the final few games was the oline finally solidified with Harris back and giving beadles the chance ro move back to olg. Moreno finally healed up and ran pretty good in a few games.

Had Orton been playing instead just perhapshis number would have been better.

He got no help on thud down all year no running game to keep the D honest. Or frankly less than 3rd and long.
The beloved 3rd conversion might have been better.

Shananahan
05-04-2011, 08:01 PM
Yeah Orton is not a probowler might not lead the broncos to the promised land but given an OL that can protect him and a scent running game neither if which he had last year when he was playing. He might surprise all the jay lovers.

The only reason Tebow looked decent in the final few games was the oline finally solidified with Harris back and giving beadles the chance ro move back to olg. Moreno finally healed up and ran pretty good in a few games.

Had Orton been playing instead just perhapshis number would have been better.

He got no help on thud down all year no running game to keep the D honest. Or frankly less than 3rd and long.
The beloved 3rd conversion might have been better.
And yet, it still wouldn't really matter at all because had Orton really had all that help and the team been able to play that much better McDaniels might not have been fired and Tebow would still be the chosen future QB. had McDaniels still been fired, Orton still would not have been resigned beyond this season without making the Pro Bowl + playoffs.

Defend him all you like, but he was doomed to be a stopgap player from the moment he arrived. This way, we just get to see what we have in Tebow a year earlier.

TXBRONC
05-04-2011, 08:34 PM
And yet, it still wouldn't really matter at all because had Orton really had all that help and the team been able to play that much better McDaniels might not have been fired and Tebow would still be the chosen future QB. had McDaniels still been fired, Orton still would not have been resigned beyond this season without making the Pro Bowl + playoffs.

Defend him all you like, but he was doomed to be a stopgap player from the moment he arrived. This way, we just get to see what we have in Tebow a year earlier.

After the '09 season Orton was fortunate to be Denver's starting quarterback this past season. McDaniels was so pleased with what he saw in Orton that he wanted ship him out.

Elevation inc
05-04-2011, 08:53 PM
i would take tatum bell for Kyle orton in a straight up swap thats how i feel about Orton....Th tebow era is on the horizon get on the bus or follow orton to the UFL....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

TXBRONC
05-04-2011, 09:05 PM
i would take tatum bell for Kyle orton in a straight up swap thats how i feel about Orton....Th tebow era is on the horizon get on the bus or follow orton to the UFL....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

No thanks. :lol:

rcsodak
05-04-2011, 09:08 PM
i would take tatum bell for Kyle orton in a straight up swap thats how i feel about Orton....Th tebow era is on the horizon get on the bus or follow orton to the UFL....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yikes....maybe you should get closer to sea level then, elevation. ;)

Elevation inc
05-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Yikes....maybe you should get closer to sea level then, elevation. ;)

Im very close and seeing clearly.....lol:D

Elevation inc
05-04-2011, 09:25 PM
No thanks. :lol:

dont worry i wouldnt follow kyle to the UFL either....HAHAHA:D

Zweems56
05-05-2011, 09:49 AM
Well, this thread didn't turn out how I had intended..

BroncoBJ
05-05-2011, 11:20 AM
You can praise Tebow without bashing Orton ya know. Its possible :fight:

But yea, I saw this yesterday on twitter. Was definatly happy. Also tweeting to Virgil Green as well. Glad that hes getting his rookie TE's together and hopefully build some chemistry with them. Damn really wish this lockout would be over with.

Lonestar
05-05-2011, 03:24 PM
Calling Orton a "damned good QB" is a bit of a stretch. He isn't horrible but he is rather pedestrian and certainly not a leader. Hopefully he'll fetch us a decent player or draft pick.

Considering the lack of a running game and the oline being yet or almost all of the games henplayed and still put up 3800 plus yard realy not sure what else he was supposed to do.

Orton was not the reason Thai team was 4-12 without him probably have been worse considering the state of the D, ST & OL.

Dzone
05-05-2011, 03:30 PM
I remember too many times, Orton folding like a cheap lawn chair whenever a defender as much as breathed on him. Pathetic. Forget stats. Look at how he plays. Very weak.
When you see Tebow get hit, he knocks the shit out of someone. DBs fear him because they know he will run their ass over. That should be worth something.

TXBRONC
05-05-2011, 03:31 PM
Well, this thread didn't turn out how I had intended..

Do they ever turn out the way we intend? :D

TXBRONC
05-05-2011, 03:40 PM
I remember too many times, Orton folding like a cheap lawn chair whenever a defender as much as breathed on him. Pathetic. Forget stats. Look at how he plays. Very weak.
When you see Tebow get hit, he knocks the shit out of someone. DBs fear him because they know he will run their ass over. That should be worth something.

I really resent you insulting my cheap lawn chairs. They've folded up that easy. :lol:






Sorry Zweem all I just couldn't resist.

Lonestar
05-05-2011, 04:51 PM
And yet, it still wouldn't really matter at all because had Orton really had all that help and the team been able to play that much better McDaniels might not have been fired and Tebow would still be the chosen future QB. had McDaniels still been fired, Orton still would not have been resigned beyond this season without making the Pro Bowl + playoffs.

Defend him all you like, but he was doomed to be a stopgap player from the moment he arrived. This way, we just get to see what we have in Tebow a year earlier.

Until his play mid year last year I doubt anyone had would have thought Orton had a huge season inside of him.

Abiut game 7-8 he was being considered as MVP materials every where but in Denver. He was making yards and tds almost by him self and his two WRs.

But then the losing season was guaranteed and he was pulled to see what the kid could do.

Not a defense but the straight hard facts. And I donnit beleive that he or anyone thought he would be around after this coming season.

Lonestar
05-05-2011, 05:08 PM
I remember too many times, Orton folding like a cheap lawn chair whenever a defender as much as breathed on him. Pathetic. Forget stats. Look at how he plays. Very weak.
When you see Tebow get hit, he knocks the shit out of someone. DBs fear him because they know he will run their ass over. That should be worth something.

I saw the year before a very courageous guy doing all he could to carry the team playing with a compound (when the broken bone breaks through the skin) fracture if his growing finger nbut was out there after iirc missing a half a game. Then later in the year playing on two not one high ankle sprains.

So please spare the male bovine excrement about him folding like a tent.

Now is he Tebow absolutely not. I called the Tebow pick as an absolute certainty the monday before the draft.
Then after getting to know him was known as a Tebow homer.

I like the kid nd think he has a bright future maybe he will not be a pro bowler. Buy he will never quit on his team like some of our past QBs have quit on their teams. B

TXBRONC
05-05-2011, 05:13 PM
I saw the year before a very courageous guy doing all he could to carry the team playing with a compound (when the broken bone breaks through the skin) fracture if his growing finger nbut was out there after iirc missing a half a game. Then later in the year playing on two not one high ankle sprains.

So please spare the male bovine excrement about him folding like a tent.

Now is he Tebow absolutely not. I called the Tebow pick as an absolute certainty the monday before the draft.
Then after getting to know him was known as a Tebow homer.

I like the kid nd think he has a bright future maybe he will not be a pro bowler. Buy he will never quit on his team like some of our past QBs have quit on their teams. B

Orton did quite on his team. Btw he didn't have compound fracture but compound sprain from what I recall.

topscribe
05-05-2011, 05:22 PM
Orton did quite on his team. Btw he didn't have compound fracture but compound sprain from what I recall.

It was called a compound dislocation.

-----

Lonestar
05-05-2011, 06:56 PM
It was called a compound dislocation.

-----
Fracture dislocation whatever. When the bone pokes through the skin in any situation it is bad.

Playng with stitches In his throwing finger is pretty gutsy to me.

To have someone charcaatrize him As folding like a tent is lame.

Is he the runner Tebow is no. Will he seek running over someone not if he is smart. And I suspect correctly Tebow will be doing hook slides mat the direction of the coaching staff Very soon if he has not been told to do so Aleady.

Or his career will be very short

topscribe
05-05-2011, 07:33 PM
Fracture dislocation whatever. When the bone pokes through the skin in any situation it is bad.

Playng with stitches In his throwing finger is pretty gutsy to me.

To have someone charcaatrize him As folding like a tent is lame.

Is he the runner Tebow is no. Will he seek running over someone not if he is smart. And I suspect correctly Tebow will be doing hook slides mat the direction of the coaching staff Very soon if he has not been told to do so Aleady.

Or his career will be very short

Neither Peyton Manning nor Tom Brady are the runners Tebow is, either. In
fact, they aren't the runners BVP was. Running is a fine quality to have in a
QB -- who knows how to use it (which I don't think Tebow does yet, as you
implied) -- but running does not make the QB. As Elway said, Tebow is a good
football player, but he is not yet a good QB.

It's great to hear that Tebow has been working hard during the offseason.
However, what he really needs he's not getting. He can work out with a
center all he wants, but he is not getting the looks he needs with pass
rushers closing in while looking for an open receiver while defenders are racing
all over the field. If one has not played QB, one cannot appreciate all the
decisions that go into one play for a QB.

He's not getting that while the lockout is in progress. He had his work cut out
for him, anyway, going against the QB that "played on a record-shattering,
Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway, and even Elway knows the reason for Orton's
demise in Orton's last couple games because Elway finished that statement
with, "And then there were those rib injuries").

I'm glad you answered the garbage about Orton's "folding like a tent" and
having no heart. The guy played a season-and-a-half with high ankle sprains,
several games with his right index (guiding) finger bandaged up from a
compound (through the skin) dislocation, and he finished last season with
severe rib injuries on both sides. That is one tough SOB.

I admire Tebow for his work ethic and leadership. But, as BroncoBJ mentioned,
we can admire Tebow without denigrating the other QB -- the one we likely
will have this next year and should be supporting, if so. After all, if Orton
brings back the same capabilities he demonstrated last year, and is
complemented by an improved running game and defense, we just might find
the Broncos contending for the Division this year.

Let's be grateful: It looks as if the Broncos have two good QBs shaping up in
the very near future . . .

-----

Elevation inc
05-05-2011, 07:53 PM
You can praise Tebow without bashing Orton ya know. Its possible :fight:

But yea, I saw this yesterday on twitter. Was definatly happy. Also tweeting to Virgil Green as well. Glad that hes getting his rookie TE's together and hopefully build some chemistry with them. Damn really wish this lockout would be over with.


but why, orton is just a bearded version of alex smith who got insanely lucky he had a reciever with magic hands in lloyd and a coach who didnt know how to run the football so just called pass plays

orton sucks as a leader, and team player and i will praise the day he isnt in denver anymore....i will bash him all I want becasue he doesnt belong in denver. I would take brady quinn before kyle orton....

TXBRONC
05-05-2011, 08:17 PM
but why, orton is just a bearded version of alex smith who got insanely lucky he had a reciever with magic hands in lloyd and a coach who didnt know how to run the football so just called pass plays

orton sucks as a leader, and team player and i will praise the day he isnt in denver anymore....i will bash him all I want becasue he doesnt belong in denver. I would take brady quinn before kyle orton....

Orton is ok. But for all the talk about the prolific yards he wasn't producing points.

topscribe
05-05-2011, 08:19 PM
Orton is ok. But for all the talk about the prolific yards he wasn't producing points.

That's why I'm glad Fox will address the running game. That will do wonders in
producing points. I don't know why people think Orton should have done it all
by himself . . .

-----

Agent of Orange
05-05-2011, 08:25 PM
That's why I'm glad Fox will address the running game. That will do wonders in
producing points. I don't know why people think Orton should have done it all
by himself . . .

-----

When Tebow played (with the same running game), the offense never failed to get 21 points. And Tebow was a rookie. Under Orton, the offense failed to get 21 points 9 out of 13 games.

You're going to need to come up with a better argument than that.

TXBRONC
05-05-2011, 08:38 PM
When Tebow played (with the same running game), the offense never failed to get 21 points. And Tebow was a rookie. Under Orton, the offense failed to get 21 points 9 out of 13 games.

You're going to need to come up with a better argument than that.

Agreed. Orton is just not playmaker.

nevcraw
05-05-2011, 09:30 PM
When Tebow played (with the same running game), the offense never failed to get 21 points. And Tebow was a rookie. Under Orton, the offense failed to get 21 points 9 out of 13 games.

You're going to need to come up with a better argument than that.

that's just because the teams let up on tebow but when they played Orton they played him like it was the superbowl.

Agent of Orange
05-05-2011, 09:47 PM
that's just because the teams let up on tebow but when they played Orton they played him like it was the superbowl.

This is so absurd, I can't tell if you're being serious.

nevcraw
05-05-2011, 10:15 PM
This is so absurd, I can't tell if you're being serious.

let the absurdity blanket you like a blanket.

TXBRONC
05-05-2011, 10:22 PM
This is so absurd, I can't tell if you're being serious.

Yes he's being a little sarcastic.

Juriga72
05-06-2011, 06:14 AM
Until his play mid year last year I doubt anyone had would have thought Orton had a huge season inside of him.

Abiut game 7-8 he was being considered as MVP materials every where but in Denver. He was making yards and tds almost by him self and his two WRs.

But then the losing season was guaranteed and he was pulled to see what the kid could do.

Not a defense but the straight hard facts. And I donnit beleive that he or anyone thought he would be around after this coming season.

Wow...... what dribble. Lets face facts ok. Orton played very " Cutler like"
moved the ball between the 20's VERY well early and then guess what. Folded as the proverbial lawn chair he is.

I hate to say it, but MVP's dont miss wrideouts in the redzone.Nor do they throw pick sixes, and game ending int's..

Orton led us to what this year again? the 2nd overall pick

:coffee:

Lonestar
05-06-2011, 10:06 AM
When Tebow played (with the same running game), the offense never failed to get 21 points. And Tebow was a rookie. Under Orton, the offense failed to get 21 points 9 out of 13 games.

You're going to need to come up with a better argument than that.

And the OL was finally Heathy and in the correct spots. Huge difference than when beadles had to be in every spot on the OL (except center) covering someone that was hurt.

TXBRONC
05-06-2011, 10:15 AM
According to his profile the only other position that Beadles played besides right guard was right tackle.

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 10:55 AM
That's why I'm glad Fox will address the running game. That will do wonders in
producing points. I don't know why people think Orton should have done it all
by himself . . .

-----

Orton was EXPECTED to produce because the offense was heavily geared to throwing the football. Tom Brady is expected to do the same in his offense, which is very similar. Dan Marino was expected to in his offense, which was heavily geared to the verticle passing game.

When you throw 30-50 times / game, your numbers had better be solid or you're going to get pulled and your team can't win.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 11:41 AM
Orton was EXPECTED to produce because the offense was heavily geared to throwing the football. Tom Brady is expected to do the same in his offense, which is very similar. Dan Marino was expected to in his offense, which was heavily geared to the verticle passing game.

When you throw 30-50 times / game, your numbers had better be solid or you're going to get pulled and your team can't win.

Good. Then it's settled. As John Elway said, Orton produced at a "record-
shattering, Pro Bowl level." If you disagree with that, tweet Elway about it
(@johnelway). Tell him you know more about it than he does. Maybe he will
give you a job . . .

-----

LRtagger
05-06-2011, 11:46 AM
I'm all aboard turning Orton loose and going with Tebow, but some of the criticism is undeserved. Orton busted his A to get better and it showed and I think he's a decent leader, but I think everyone knows his ceiling just isnt as high as Tebows.

MaxBroncos MaxBroncos
RT @ProLinkSports: Another tough Broncos Lockout/Workout today with @LorenLandow led by @zanebeadles, Kyle Orton, @E_Decker & JD Walton.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Here's the deal: Virtually the Broncos' entire offense last year amounted to the
quarterback and two receivers. And so how do most of you want to fix it? Oh
yeah, let's ship off that quarterback!

It just makes no sense . . .

-----

TXBRONC
05-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Good. Then it's settled. As John Elway said, Orton produced at a "record-
shattering, Pro Bowl level." If you disagree with that, tweet Elway about it
(@johnelway). Tell him you know more about it than he does. Maybe he will
give you a job . . .

-----

Elway is also on the record saying he's not convinced Orton is the guy. Those two statements are harmonious.

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 12:39 PM
Here's the deal: Virtually the Broncos' entire offense last year amounted to the
quarterback and two receivers. And so how do most of you want to fix it? Oh
yeah, let's ship off that quarterback!

It just makes no sense . . .

-----

Oh, ok... Orton / Tebow had no lineman blocking for them? The offense didn't miss a step when we turned Tebow loose either, and he was a rookie project who supposedly needed YEARS to develop, but there he was making plays and beating Houston and damn near beating San Diego, a team that absolutely throttled Orton earlier in the year.

I want to get players who make PLAYS. Period. Orton is certainly upgradable, he's a marginal NFL starter and an elite backup.

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 12:41 PM
Good. Then it's settled. As John Elway said, Orton produced at a "record-
shattering, Pro Bowl level." If you disagree with that, tweet Elway about it
(@johnelway). Tell him you know more about it than he does. Maybe he will
give you a job . . .

-----

All the while during the draft Elway says "Tebow is his guy" and he's open to offers for Orton. :lol:

Come one man, what was Elway going to say about Orton? "Orton sucks, he's horrible, he's our backup. BUT, we'll take a 2nd rounder for him!"

:rolleyes:

rcsodak
05-06-2011, 12:48 PM
According to his profile the only other position that Beadles played besides right guard was right tackle.
He started out at LG, iirc.

rcsodak
05-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Orton was EXPECTED to produce because the offense was heavily geared to throwing the football. Tom Brady is expected to do the same in his offense, which is very similar. Dan Marino was expected to in his offense, which was heavily geared to the verticle passing game.

When you throw 30-50 times / game, your numbers had better be solid or you're going to get pulled and your team can't win.
I don't think, at any time last year, denvers Oline = NE's.

BeefStew25
05-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Guys, we seem to forget that Brady Quinn is also on our team.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 01:32 PM
All the while during the draft Elway says "Tebow is his guy" and he's open to offers for Orton. :lol:

Come one man, what was Elway going to say about Orton? "Orton sucks, he's horrible, he's our backup. BUT, we'll take a 2nd rounder for him!"

:rolleyes:

If you are going to put quotes around a statement, make sure it is verbatim.
Nowhere did Elway say Tebow is his guy with the intention of indicating Tebow
will start. He was responding to inquiries about rumors involving trading Tebow.
He responded that Tebow has his full backing.

So, just as you said: Come one man, what was Elway going to say about Tebow?

But while you are laughing and ridiculing what I said, keep in mind that I was
using Elway's words, not mine. Of course, the difference is, I was doing it
accurately . . .

-----

LRtagger
05-06-2011, 01:38 PM
http://www.menshealth.com/celebrity-fitness/uploads/Brady-Quinn-Action-Water-670x350.jpg

topscribe
05-06-2011, 01:41 PM
Guys, we seem to forget that Brady Quinn is also on our team.

Wouldn't that be a laugh on everybody if he ended up with the starting job? :lol:

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BroncoWave
05-06-2011, 01:43 PM
When Tebow played (with the same running game), the offense never failed to get 21 points. And Tebow was a rookie. Under Orton, the offense failed to get 21 points 9 out of 13 games.

You're going to need to come up with a better argument than that.

Wow, top sure conveniently ignored this one.

vandammage13
05-06-2011, 01:48 PM
If you are going to put quotes around a statement, make sure it is verbatim.
Nowhere did Elway say Tebow is his guy with the intention of indicating Tebow
will start. He was responding to inquiries about rumors involving trading Tebow.
He responded that Tebow has his full backing.
So, just as you said: Come one man, what was Elway going to say about Tebow?

But while you are laughing and ridiculing what I said, keep in mind that I was
using Elway's words, not mine. Of course, the difference is, I was doing it
accurately . . .

-----

"There's not an Andrew Luck, a [Matthew] Stafford, a [Sam] Bradford. Those guys are all very good quarterbacks in my mind, but there are holes in every one of them -- as there were in Tebow. I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." - JOHN ELWAY

That is a direct quote and he plainly says "I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." ........Ignore what he said if you choose, but it is clear that Tebow is the guy, and Orton is not in Elway's plans.

TXBRONC
05-06-2011, 01:56 PM
"There's not an Andrew Luck, a [Matthew] Stafford, a [Sam] Bradford. Those guys are all very good quarterbacks in my mind, but there are holes in every one of them -- as there were in Tebow. I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." - JOHN ELWAY

That is a direct quote and he plainly says "I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." ........Ignore what he said if you choose, but it is clear that Tebow is the guy, and Orton is not in Elway's plans.

Ouch.

I remember Elway seeing that I just don't remember where.

vandammage13
05-06-2011, 02:04 PM
Ouch.

I remember Elway saying that I just don't remember where.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6442597

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 03:17 PM
If you are going to put quotes around a statement, make sure it is verbatim.
Nowhere did Elway say Tebow is his guy with the intention of indicating Tebow
will start. He was responding to inquiries about rumors involving trading Tebow.
He responded that Tebow has his full backing.

So, just as you said: Come one man, what was Elway going to say about Tebow?

But while you are laughing and ridiculing what I said, keep in mind that I was
using Elway's words, not mine. Of course, the difference is, I was doing it
accurately . . .

-----

"I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim."


I think that VERBATIM quote from Elway sums it up pretty well. Nice knowing you Kyle. :salute:

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 03:18 PM
"There's not an Andrew Luck, a [Matthew] Stafford, a [Sam] Bradford. Those guys are all very good quarterbacks in my mind, but there are holes in every one of them -- as there were in Tebow. I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." - JOHN ELWAY

That is a direct quote and he plainly says "I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." ........Ignore what he said if you choose, but it is clear that Tebow is the guy, and Orton is not in Elway's plans.

Haha, that's the quote I was talking about, just saw you posted it.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 03:30 PM
"I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim."


I think that VERBATIM quote from Elway sums it up pretty well. Nice knowing you Kyle. :salute:

Now try it in its context. IIRC, Elway was responding to inquiries about drafting
another QB when the Broncos already have Tebow. I would appreciate it if you
would post the entire context here so we can get an accurate impression from it.

-----

Lonestar
05-06-2011, 03:35 PM
According to his profile the only other position that Beadles played besides right guard was right tackle.

He Played part rime in place of clady during the preseason, as well as then his nornal spot of LG. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that is every spot on the OL except center.

Your always trying to one up me , kind of petty IMHO

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 03:35 PM
Now try it in its context. IIRC, Elway was responding to inquiries about drafting
another QB when the Broncos already have Tebow. I would appreciate it if you
would post the entire context here so we can get an accurate impression from it.

-----

Take it as you like in whatever context you like, if it isn't Andrew Luck it's going to be Tim Tebow. Orton isn't a factor in ANYONE'S mind other than yours, in fact, Elway is probably looking to move him or already would had he been able to because next year Orton walks for no compensation.

Even a 4th rounder is better than a no rounder.

nevcraw
05-06-2011, 03:40 PM
Elway goes on further to say.. "if I was playing Quarters, Beer Pong or trying to snag an off strip Vegas lounge waitress then Kyle would be my clear number 1".

topscribe
05-06-2011, 03:43 PM
Take it as you like in whatever context you like, if it isn't Andrew Luck it's going to be Tim Tebow. Orton isn't a factor in ANYONE'S mind other than yours, in fact, Elway is probably looking to move him or already would had he been able to because next year Orton walks for no compensation.

Even a 4th rounder is better than a no rounder.

Please speak for yourself. Both Fox and Elway said very clearly Orton and
Tebow would compete for the job. Don't go telling what Elway is "probably"
doing then representing it as fact. I would prefer to wait and see what will
happen since that would be the reasonable, logical, and mature thing to do.

BTW, do you take a poll to see what others believe then use that to form your
own beliefs? Just wondering -- seems you think that is what I should do. Why
should I believe something simply because people who post on a football
message board believe it? If that is within your criteria, so be it. I learned
better some time ago.

-----

Lonestar
05-06-2011, 03:46 PM
I'm all aboard turning Orton loose and going with Tebow, but some of the criticism is undeserved. Orton busted his A to get better and it showed and I think he's a decent leader, but I think everyone knows his ceiling just isnt as high as Tebows.

MaxBroncos MaxBroncos
RT @ProLinkSports: Another tough Broncos Lockout/Workout today with @LorenLandow led by @zanebeadles, Kyle Orton, @E_Decker & JD Walton.

Your 1000% correct with this post. Because you are looking at it dispassionately and logically.

Many folks ae still butt hurt that
Josh was From NE
SPags was not hired
Mikey was fired
Jay hit his nose in a snit and Josh did not kiss his ass.
Pat is senile
We got rid of the ZBS
BM was traded
Ts was traded
Hillis was traded
Nolan was a God in their minds, but in reality a loser whO did not know a DT unless it bit him in the ass.

Any or all of the above.

Again good post.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 03:48 PM
And the OL was finally Heathy and in the correct spots. Huge difference than when beadles had to be in every spot on the OL (except center) covering someone that was hurt.

True, although Beadles spent very little time at RG: that is Kuper's position.
McD put him from LG out at RT for a while until Harris had recovered enough to
return, then Beadles went back to LG. So most of his time, by a great margin,
was at LG and RT.

-----

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 04:07 PM
Please speak for yourself. Both Fox and Elway said very clearly Orton and
Tebow would compete for the job. Don't go telling what Elway is "probably"
doing then representing it as fact. I would prefer to wait and see what will
happen since that would be the reasonable, logical, and mature thing to do.

BTW, do you take a poll to see what others believe then use that to form your
own beliefs? Just wondering -- seems you think that is what I should do. Why
should I believe something simply because people who post on a football
message board believe it? If that is within your criteria, so be it. I learned
better some time ago.

-----

Hold your head high when Orton's gone man. You're suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, it will eventually wear off once Orton's gone.

TXBRONC
05-06-2011, 04:22 PM
He Played part rime in place of clady during the preseason, as well as then his nornal spot of LG. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that is every spot on the OL except center.

Your always trying to one up me , kind of petty IMHO

I was talking about games that actually count.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Hold your head high when Orton's gone man. You're suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, it will eventually wear off once Orton's gone.

Did you have something intelligent to say about the issue, or did you just want to talk about me?

Or are you interested simply in instigating?

-----

rcsodak
05-06-2011, 05:11 PM
Wow, top sure conveniently ignored this one.

LMAO!

That's been used/refuted so many times, I'm surprised it hasn't already grown legs and left the screen on its own. :rolleyes:

rcsodak
05-06-2011, 05:15 PM
"There's not an Andrew Luck, a [Matthew] Stafford, a [Sam] Bradford. Those guys are all very good quarterbacks in my mind, but there are holes in every one of them -- as there were in Tebow. I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." - JOHN ELWAY

That is a direct quote and he plainly says "I think where we are as an organization, we're going to go with Tim." ........Ignore what he said if you choose, but it is clear that Tebow is the guy, and Orton is not in Elway's plans.

So you know what his meaning was? Where's the part leading up to what he said?

My take, is they're happy enough with who they have, currently, and not looking to add another qb draft pick.

Why do I say that?
Makes more sense than all of the sudden deciding TT is the starter.


Elway remains confident that Tebow eventually can be the kind of quarterback who is successful within the pocket. However, he's unsure when that transformation will be made.

"You're always projecting it, but I think he can eventually get there," Elway said. "I can't tell you a timeline. I don't know if it's going to be this fall or this time next year. But I think he's got the desire that eventually he's going to be very effective."


Plus, JUST the other day, they were STILL saying 'if the season started today, orton would be the qb'.


ok....now spin away.......:lol:

Agent of Orange
05-06-2011, 06:12 PM
Oh, ok... Orton / Tebow had no lineman blocking for them? The offense didn't miss a step when we turned Tebow loose either, and he was a rookie project who supposedly needed YEARS to develop, but there he was making plays and beating Houston and damn near beating San Diego, a team that absolutely throttled Orton earlier in the year.

I want to get players who make PLAYS. Period. Orton is certainly upgradable, he's a marginal NFL starter and an elite backup.

Its amazing how the OLine started to look worse from Cutler to Orton and then started to look better again from Orton to Tebow. Its amazing how many people even know what they're looking at, let alone talking about.

Oh, and we haven't even addressed fact that Tebow brings his own running game with all the Orton apologists crying about no running game. What a joke.

Lonestar
05-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Its amazing how the OLine started to look worse from Cutler to Orton and then started to look better again from Orton to Tebow. Its amazing how many people even know what they're looking at, let alone talking about.

Oh, and we haven't even addressed fact that Tebow brings his own running game with all the Orton apologists crying about no running game. What a joke.

The joke is folks that do donnot have aclue about just how intricate the blocking fan OL is


Near impossible to just plug a guy into a spot and be like you were before you did so.

The great OL ware that because they been playing together for years. The KC OL from the early 2000 had been Togetherforclose to a decade before they got old and fell apart.

But the had the fewest sacks allowed and the best running game in the NFL for a long time.

That did not happen overnite wenhad two rookies on that OL last year one of which was moved and played at least a couple of games at 4 different spots.
Harris was totally ineffective till his injuries healed late inthe year kuper was cming off of ankle surgery and clady off of knee surgery just 6 months before the season stArted those are the REASONS they sucked for most of the year not excuses but boneafide reasons

The OL is perhaps more team work than any part of pro sports.

It is nit 5 guys doing just their jobs but knowing what the guy next to him is going to do.

TXBRONC
05-06-2011, 08:10 PM
Its amazing how the OLine started to look worse from Cutler to Orton and then started to look better again from Orton to Tebow. Its amazing how many people even know what they're looking at, let alone talking about.

Oh, and we haven't even addressed fact that Tebow brings his own running game with all the Orton apologists crying about no running game. What a joke.

It is true that like started playing better once Ryan Harris was able healthy enough to play. It kinda comes across to me that this took place after Tebow was inserted into the starting line up. But Harris was back in the line up several weeks before Tebow became the starter. So even with better line Orton still couldn't produce more points.

chazoe60
05-06-2011, 08:50 PM
Wouldn't that be a laugh on everybody if he ended up with the starting job? :lol:

-----

Honestly, I'd be fine with that. Some may assume I'm a huge Tebow fanboy because of how I trash Orton, but I'm not. I'm just anti-Orton. I want Tebow to be the guy and in my heart of hearts I believe he will be but he is not the reason I want Orton gone. If TT got beat out by Quinn in camp I'd be fine with that, but the thought of watching Orton for another season makes me cringe.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 08:57 PM
It is true that like started playing better once Ryan Harris was able healthy enough to play. It kinda comes across to me that this took place after Tebow was inserted into the starting line up. But Harris was back in the line up several weeks before Tebow became the starter. So even with better line Orton still couldn't produce more points.

What games would those be? It is true the Broncos scored only 14 points
against SD -- who happened to have the #1 defense in the league and
allowed all of 63 yards rushing. Think that might have had something to do
with it?

But just a week before that, against KC, the Broncos scored 49 points. Then
the game after that, Orton passed for three TDs in the final quarter in an (ahem)
Elway-esque comeback falling just three points short after being down 20.

Now, the following two weeks, Orton played with the severe rib injuries. I don't
know whether you've ever had a rib injury, but it can be hard even to breathe,
let alone do anything else (such as throw the ball).

It just seems to me it's a bit shallow to say Orton couldn't produce the points
after Harris came back (which is untrue for when Orton was healthy) and not
take all the factors into consideration.

But it is true the O-line started to gel a bit more late in the season, and Harris
did make a difference. What I would rather get out of that, however, is
encouragement for this year: that it produces hope that the play of the O-line
will be improved.

I would rather take that slant than to be dragged into a Tebow/Orton quibble,
which some of these guys seem to want. It seems that anything positive that
is said about Orton -- anything at all -- these guys are down in a 3-point
stance, ready to jump on that -- and on the person who said it. (I'm not
talking about you, TX.) They seem to troll the boards with how bad Orton is
and what a superman Tebow is. Which is why I speak up, which is stupid that
I do because all I do is invite attacks upon myself.

It has tarnished the board, and I don't know why I've been a part of it . . .

/rant

-----

GEM
05-06-2011, 09:00 PM
Same way that if anything negative is said about orton, you are in tha same stance. Goes both ways.

topscribe
05-06-2011, 09:01 PM
Honestly, I'd be fine with that. Some may assume I'm a huge Tebow fanboy because of how I trash Orton, but I'm not. I'm just anti-Orton. I want Tebow to be the guy and in my heart of hearts I believe he will be but he is not the reason I want Orton gone. If TT got beat out by Quinn in camp I'd be fine with that, but the thought of watching Orton for another season makes me cringe.

See, that's what I don't understand. I want Tebow to be the guy. Or I want
Orton to be the guy. Or I want Quinn to be the guy.

I could give a rat's behind what the last name of the QB is. I just want to see
more games in the win column.

All this debate around a QB. To hell with that. The Broncos need a running game.
They need a defense. The QB is the only position that produced last year, on
offense. Nothing produced on defense. So what's all this about the QB?

I'm out of here for 24 hours -- not because of this, but something unrelated.

CYA :wave:

-----

rcsodak
05-06-2011, 09:01 PM
Honestly, I'd be fine with that. Some may assume I'm a huge Tebow fanboy because of how I trash Orton, but I'm not. I'm just anti-Orton. I want Tebow to be the guy and in my heart of hearts I believe he will be but he is not the reason I want Orton gone. If TT got beat out by Quinn in camp I'd be fine with that, but the thought of watching Orton for another season makes me cringe.

How funny.


You cry about how orton is able to win the job in camp, with no pressure in his face, but turn around and say you're ok if quinn does the same exact thing.

Not sure if that's hypocrisy or irony.... :confused:

topscribe
05-06-2011, 09:03 PM
Same way that if anything negative is said about orton, you are in tha same stance. Goes both ways.

Did I not say that, that I was a part of it?

Did it occur to you to read my post? Wow.

Whew.

And that is not true, anyway. A total falsehood. There has been a hell of a lot
of negative things said about Orton, where I have not posted a word. I have
stayed away from it for long stretches of time.

-----

chazoe60
05-06-2011, 09:04 PM
How funny.


You cry about how orton is able to win the job in camp, with no pressure in his face, but turn around and say you're ok if quinn does the same exact thing.

Not sure if that's hypocrisy or irony.... :confused:

Please quote my post where I say Orton can win in camp because he feels no pressure. I've seen others say it, but not me.

Agent of Orange
05-06-2011, 09:14 PM
Did I not say that, that I was a part of it?

Did it occur to you to read my post? Wow.

Whew.

And that is not true, anyway. A total falsehood. There has been a hell of a lot
of negative things said about Orton, where I have not posted a word. I have
stayed away from it for long stretches of time.

-----

You accused everyone who is pro Tebow of being trolls even though you're in the minority. Unless you're admitting to also being a troll, you're saying others are worse. But the truth is, you're no better than anyone else, so stop trying to act like you're some victim or even as though you're above this. You've gone too far with this Orton stuff to start living that lie.

TXBRONC
05-06-2011, 09:27 PM
See, that's what I don't understand. I want Tebow to be the guy. Or I want
Orton to be the guy. Or I want Quinn to be the guy.

I could give a rat's behind what the last name of the QB is. I just want to see
more games in the win column.

All this debate around a QB. To hell with that. The Broncos need a running game.
They need a defense. The QB is the only position that produced last year, on
offense. Nothing produced on defense. So what's all this about the QB?

I'm out of here for 24 hours -- not because of this, but something unrelated.

CYA :wave:

-----

I hope everyone is ok.

rcsodak
05-06-2011, 09:59 PM
Please quote my post where I say Orton can win in camp because he feels no pressure. I've seen others say it, but not me.

Don't have the time or propensity, chaz.....

I believe you.

BroncoStud
05-06-2011, 10:52 PM
What games would those be? It is true the Broncos scored only 14 points
against SD -- who happened to have the #1 defense in the league and
allowed all of 63 yards rushing. Think that might have had something to do
with it?

But just a week before that, against KC, the Broncos scored 49 points. Then
the game after that, Orton passed for three TDs in the final quarter in an (ahem)
Elway-esque comeback falling just three points short after being down 20.

Now, the following two weeks, Orton played with the severe rib injuries. I don't
know whether you've ever had a rib injury, but it can be hard even to breathe,
let alone do anything else (such as throw the ball).

It just seems to me it's a bit shallow to say Orton couldn't produce the points
after Harris came back (which is untrue for when Orton was healthy) and not
take all the factors into consideration.

But it is true the O-line started to gel a bit more late in the season, and Harris
did make a difference. What I would rather get out of that, however, is
encouragement for this year: that it produces hope that the play of the O-line
will be improved.

I would rather take that slant than to be dragged into a Tebow/Orton quibble,
which some of these guys seem to want. It seems that anything positive that
is said about Orton -- anything at all -- these guys are down in a 3-point
stance, ready to jump on that -- and on the person who said it. (I'm not
talking about you, TX.) They seem to troll the boards with how bad Orton is
and what a superman Tebow is. Which is why I speak up, which is stupid that
I do because all I do is invite attacks upon myself.

It has tarnished the board, and I don't know why I've been a part of it . . .

/rant

-----

Cry a river dude. This has NOTHING to do with Tebow. Tim Tebow has NOTHING to do with the fact that Kyle Orton is an NFL backup, horrible on 3rd downs and in the redzone, and can't make the plays that ELITE NFL QBs do.

Go back 30 years and tell me how many teams have won Super Bowls with an average QB like Kyle Orton? No mobility, limited arm, lack of clutch-play...

Maybe 3-4 out of 30.

It starts with QB, all of it. He handles every snap. He leads the team. Orton was somewhat productive, but only mediocre, he was about 15th or below in most major stats other than yardage, which he did quite well in. Yardage aside - MEDIOCRE or below, especially on conversion downs and plays.

You want AVERAGE, fine, keep rooting for Kyle Orton. Many of us seem to WANT and EXPECT more than that from the QB position. I couldn't stand watching Kyle Orton QB this team while Tim Tebow was crying on the sideline at Florida and Brady Quinn was getting a blackeye from a teammate in Cleveland.

Orton is the same mediocre QB he was with Chicago, and because he lacks mobility to extend plays and the arm to make the 25 yard throws like elite NFL QBs do, he places a ceiling on the Broncos and their offense, and it's BLATANTLY obvious every time Denver plays.

As long as you keep rooting for the Broncos to keep mediocre starters in the lineup I will be here to point out the error in doing so. This Orton subject is clearly very personal to you, I get that, and if Tebow starts for a year and isn't any better I will be expecting an upgrade once again. Unless you have an amazing defense, special teams, and running game, you NEED a very good QB to win in this league.

2010 Green Bay Packers with Aaron Rodgers - Win Super Bowl.
2010 Green Bay Packers with Kyle Orton - Are they even .500?

DOUBTFUL. Mediocre doesn't get it done and it isn't Tebow's fault that Orton is mediocre.

Juriga72
05-07-2011, 06:05 AM
WHY is it always with Orton fans..."He's hurt!!!!, he's injured!!!!"

How about its just "he's bad"...

Lets see Orton excuse checklist-

"Our defense was so bad he had to score 30 just by himself"
Like the 3 times we did? The same number of times Chiacgo did this year.

"He had no running game!!!!"
Like the 5 losses where we ran for MORE than 100 yards? MAYBE it was we were behind at half in 5 games by more than 21 pts this year. Chicago also had the same 3.9 YPA we did.....

"Kyle is a great leader"-
With that stellar 58.0 third down qb rating?

"Our O-line was terrible!!!!!"
Yet gave up only 2 more sacks than Green Bay, and 3 less than Pittsburgh who played in the Super Bowl this year.hmmmmm Chiacgo gave up 59 sacks, and 98 qb hits.

"Did you see him tear apart Seattle when he was playing at a "Record pace"-
The same Seattle team who Cutler tore apart, but was "One of the worst teams ever in the playoffs....


face it... its excuse after excuse for Kyle... he's just bad

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 07:13 AM
WHY is it always with Orton fans..."He's hurt!!!!, he's injured!!!!"

How about its just "he's bad"...

Lets see Orton excuse checklist-

"Our defense was so bad he had to score 30 just by himself"
Like the 3 times we did? The same number of times Chiacgo did this year.

"He had no running game!!!!"
Like the 5 losses where we ran for MORE than 100 yards? MAYBE it was we were behind at half in 5 games by more than 21 pts this year. Chicago also had the same 3.9 YPA we did.....

"Kyle is a great leader"-
With that stellar 58.0 third down qb rating?

"Our O-line was terrible!!!!!"
Yet gave up only 2 more sacks than Green Bay, and 3 less than Pittsburgh who played in the Super Bowl this year.hmmmmm Chiacgo gave up 59 sacks, and 98 qb hits.

"Did you see him tear apart Seattle when he was playing at a "Record pace"-
The same Seattle team who Cutler tore apart, but was "One of the worst teams ever in the playoffs....


face it... its excuse after excuse for Kyle... he's just bad

One of my favorites is, "Orton needs a running game", when everyone knows Tebow brings his own running game with him.

Lonestar
05-07-2011, 10:27 AM
One of my favorites is, "Orton needs a running game", when everyone knows Tebow brings his own running game with him.

If you are counting on Tebow to be a running QB then his career is goingto be even shorter than your time on this forum.

I love the kid but he has to learn to either throw it away or slide or become a joke even more than he is now in most every other city not named Denver.

Not saying he can't run or should not, just saying he can't continue to bowl over or take LB and DBS head on.

I hope he has a John Elway like career in Denver.

rcsodak
05-07-2011, 01:13 PM
If you are counting on Tebow to be a running QB then his career is goingto be even shorter than your time on this forum.

I love the kid but he has to learn to either throw it away or slide or become a joke even more than he is now in most every other city not named Denver.

Not saying he can't run or should not, just saying he can't continue to bowl over or take LB and DBS head on.

I hope he has a John Elway like career in Denver.

Elway said he HAS to learn to be a pocket passer. Period.

To me, that sounds like John is willing to take away his running style almost as a challenge. Its gonna be his way, or the hiway.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 01:36 PM
If you are counting on Tebow to be a running QB then his career is goingto be even shorter than your time on this forum.

I love the kid but he has to learn to either throw it away or slide or become a joke even more than he is now in most every other city not named Denver.

Not saying he can't run or should not, just saying he can't continue to bowl over or take LB and DBS head on.

I hope he has a John Elway like career in Denver.

Slow down there, goober. At no point did I say Tebow could only run.

You might want to check out your beloved Orton's numbers when he was a rookie before you go around spouting off about someone who outperformed as a 28 year old QB, let alone Orton as a rookie.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 01:40 PM
Elway said he HAS to learn to be a pocket passer. Period.

To me, that sounds like John is willing to take away his running style almost as a challenge. Its gonna be his way, or the hiway.

Yeah, because Im sure Elway hates it when Denver scores TDs inside the red zone.

Seriously guys, some of you need to think about what you're saying first.

Lonestar
05-07-2011, 02:22 PM
Slow down there, goober. At no point did I say Tebow could only run.

You might want to check out your beloved Orton's numbers when he was a rookie before you go around spouting off about someone who outperformed as a 28 year old QB, let alone Orton as a rookie.

He is not beloved, just needs to be explained to "goobers" like your self.
A pretty good QB given the support most playoff teams give their QBs would succeed.

Maybe never a HOF QB but no reason he can't win some rings with better support than he got in Denver.

If Y'all would stop the hate and open the mind just Perhaps y'all might we what some of the rest see.

No QB is perfect. They all have their faults.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 02:28 PM
He is not beloved, just needs to be explained to "goobers" like your self.
A pretty good QB given the support most playoff teams give their QBs would succeed.

Maybe never a HOF QB but no reason he can't win some rings with better support than he got in Denver.

If Y'all would stop the hate and open the mind just Perhaps y'all might we what some of the rest see.

No QB is perfect. They all have their faults.

Do people actually take you seriously?

Dzone
05-07-2011, 02:30 PM
Someone is taking the widespread dislike of Orton way way too personally. Saying it has tarnished the board is a bit much. This is a sport. It is not life. Part of being a fan is having and voicing your strong opinions. If someone doesnt agree with you, you just cant take that personal. Trust me, if Kyle Orton is the starting QB on opening day, the boos will be heard all the way to the new mexico border.

Lonestar
05-07-2011, 02:46 PM
Yeah, because Im sure Elway hates it when Denver scores TDs inside the red zone.

Seriously guys, some of you need to think about what you're saying first.

Words from his mouth. He will become a pocket passer jut like John learned to do.

TXBRONC
05-07-2011, 02:50 PM
Yeah, because Im sure Elway hates it when Denver scores TDs inside the red zone.

Seriously guys, some of you need to think about what you're saying first.

Elway did say rightly say Tebow has to get better at passing from the pocket. Quarterbacks win championships in this League by using their arms. Having mobility as quarterback is great asset have but it can't always be a quarterback's best option.

Lonestar
05-07-2011, 02:50 PM
Do people actually take you seriously?

Actually I was thinking much the same thing about you. I suspect many others are also.

There is a magic button called Iggy, If you do not want to have a logical debate with me then use it.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Elway did say rightly say Tebow has to get better at passing from the pocket. Quarterbacks win championships in this League by using their arms. Having mobility as quarterback is great asset have but it can't always be a quarterback's best option.

Point? The exact same thing can be said about every rookie QB that has played in the NFL, except perhaps Dan Marino.

Elway isn't exactly going out on a limb. He also said last summer that Tebow's biggest issue is recognition which would speed up the process of throwing the ball.

But again, I dont see the relevance since you can find flaw with every rookie QB in the history of the game. That doesnt even mean Tebow's not better than Orton.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 03:39 PM
Actually I was thinking much the same thing about you. I suspect many others are also.

There is a magic button called Iggy, If you do not want to have a logical debate with me then use it.

What do you know about logic?

And not actually. You're the guy who positions himself as a contrarian. You could probably even call what you're doing trolling. How much time per day do you spend defending McDaniels and Orton because you know most people disagree?

TXBRONC
05-07-2011, 03:49 PM
Elway did say rightly say Tebow has to get better at passing from the pocket. Quarterbacks win championships in this League by using their arms. Having mobility as quarterback is great asset have but it can't always be a quarterback's best option.


Point? The exact same thing can be said about every rookie QB that has played in the NFL, except perhaps Dan Marino.

Elway isn't exactly going out on a limb. He also said last summer that Tebow's biggest issue is recognition which would speed up the process of throwing the ball.

But again, I dont see the relevance since you can find flaw with every rookie QB in the history of the game. That doesnt even mean Tebow's not better than Orton.

I provided the point. Quarterbacks win championships with arms not their legs.

While every quaterback has flaw and doesn't mean Tebow isn't better than Orton that still doesn't mean he's ready to be a starter.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 04:23 PM
I provide the point. Quarterbacks win championships with arms not their legs.

While every quaterback has flaw and doesn't mean Tebow isn't better than Orton that still doesn't mean he's ready to be a starter.

Not in the context of discussing whether Tebow should be playing over Orton. And again, it goes without saying that a rookie needs to improve. But an 82.1 passer rating is a good starting place.

TXBRONC
05-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Not in the context of discussing whether Tebow should be playing over Orton. And again, it goes without saying that a rookie needs to improve. But an 82.1 passer rating is a good starting place.

Passer rating stats are the most useless in the NFL. Completetion is much more valueable and completing only 50% of your passes is a problem.

Agent of Orange
05-07-2011, 07:40 PM
Passer rating stats are the most useless in the NFL. Completetion is much more valueable and completing only 50% of your passes is a problem.

I agree its not some all encompassing stat but the people who typically have high QB ratings, typically are good QBs. There are some good QBs who have ratings that are lower than you expect but thats because the formula is weighted towards certain kinds of QBs because there is a lot of arbitrary assignment of value involved in the formula. Still though, 82.1 for a rookie is really good, especially one that is "unpolished". Ortons QB rating as a rookie was 59.

Lonestar
05-07-2011, 08:14 PM
What do you know about logic?

And not actually. You're the guy who positions himself as a contrarian. You could probably even call what you're doing trolling. How much time per day do you spend defending McDaniels and Orton because you know most people disagree?

Troll aye, that is rich.

Actually spend about 35-45 minutes aday on the forum. Mostly while in the library.

About the only time I CAN spare any more.

Yet I suprisely have 30k pots here guess that comes from help founding this forum.

Elevation inc
05-08-2011, 02:02 AM
Here's the deal: Virtually the Broncos' entire offense last year amounted to the
quarterback and two receivers. And so how do most of you want to fix it? Oh
yeah, let's ship off that quarterback!

It just makes no sense . . .

-----

lol we wouldnt even be talking about how good orton is if lloyd didnt bail his weak arm out time and time again......orton sucks its just how it is....if he was so good tebow wouldnt have played the last 3 games because orton was sucking horrribly

TXBRONC
05-08-2011, 07:35 AM
lol we wouldnt even be talking about how good orton is if lloyd didnt bail his weak arm out time and time again......orton sucks its just how it is....if he was so good tebow wouldnt have played the last 3 games because orton was sucking horrribly

You know you're going to hear that Orton had injured ribs. The thing is injuries can't always be an excuse for poor play. There is always some sort of adversity to overcome.

BroncoJoe
05-08-2011, 10:14 AM
Passer rating stats are the most useless in the NFL. Completetion is much more valueable and completing only 50% of your passes is a problem.

I attribute that to practically ZERO practice time with his receivers. It's all about timing, and it's been pretty well documented that McD did not let anyone other than Orton take snaps in practice.

Tebow's accuracy was just fine in college when he had time to practice with his receivers.

Juriga72
05-08-2011, 10:22 AM
Troll aye, that is rich.

Actually spend about 35-45 minutes aday on the forum. Mostly while in the library.

About the only time I CAN spare any more.

Yet I suprisely have 30k pots here guess that comes from help founding this forum.

Being wrong often still makes you wrong...... even 30k times.

Lonestar
05-08-2011, 12:15 PM
lol we wouldnt even be talking about how good orton is if lloyd didnt bail his weak arm out time and time again......orton sucks its just how it is....if he was so good tebow wouldnt have played the last 3 games because orton was sucking horrribly

Surprised hearing this from you.

Orton had to get the ball to BL and in most cases as on the mark.
Did BL make some great catches perhaps no more the BM and fast Eddie did for jay.

For that matter Rod and Slow:laugh: Eddie did for John.

Every winning QB has receivers that make great catches.

Sorry to see you have moved to the darkside.

I hope we can get value for Orton as I see Tebow being the long term solution.

As for him replacing Orton sure did but then Orton had severly bruised ribs and the fans pressured Pat into forcing the HC to play him. When Josh would not he was fired and the interim coach did.
The fans and local media really laid the pressure to make the move.

BroncoJoe
05-08-2011, 12:29 PM
Surprised hearing this from you.

Orton had to get the ball to BL and in most cases as on the mark.
Did BL make some great catches perhaps no more the BM and fast Eddie did for jay.

For that matter Rod and Slow:laugh: Eddie did for John.

Every winning QB has receivers that make great catches.

Sorry to see you have moved to the darkside.

I hope we can get value for Orton as I see Tebow being the long term solution.

As for him replacing Orton sure did but then Orton had severly bruised ribs and the fans pressured Pat into forcing the HC to play him. When Josh would not he was fired and the interim coach did.
The fans and local media really laid the pressure to make the move.

Right. Our 3-10 record had nothing to do with it.

Lonestar
05-08-2011, 01:24 PM
I attribute that to practically ZERO practice time with his receivers. It's all about timing, and it's been pretty well documented that McD did not let anyone other than Orton take snaps in practice.

Tebow's accuracy was just fine in college when he had time to practice with his receivers.

There you go being a logical thinker.
Not letting biases get in your way like some do.

Good post.

Sinthor
05-08-2011, 01:27 PM
Ugh. I hate QB debates. Hopefully there will be some offseason this year and football so we don't have to go through these arguments all the way through September/October.

I don't think you can reasonably say Orton is a "bad" QB. Orton seems to be good a serviceable, just below the 2nd tier from his performances to date. Did Lloyd and other WR's "bail him out" on some bad throws? Sure! Some of those jump balls, hate to break it to some of you, are DESIGNED plays. Others are just jump balls, sometimes due to a throwing error, sometimes due to a QB intentionally putting it there for his receiver to jump up and go get. Guess what? Brady and Manning throw plenty of "jump balls" as well if you watch their games. Tebow threw a few as well. It's the game.

Orton's shown he can win with a good team. He hasn't SHOWN yet (he might have the ability, but he hasn't shown) the ability to put a team on his back and carry it to a win. That's the difference between a starter and an "elite" QB. Yes, it takes the whole team, but it starts with the quarterback.

Elways himself has said many times that accuracy comes with repetition. So that's what a QB needs the most of to be very accurate and that takes work. They all have the SKILL to do this or they wouldn't be in the league; it's working on that skill and honing it that makes a QB super accurate. There's more that goes into an "elite" QB as well. Tebow is exciting because he seems to have some added talents that could make him very dangerous if he's able to continue to improve and be consistent. That's why people are wanting to see him play. They've seen Orton. Orton can of course improve and I'm sure he'll work to do so. But he's had years to show this already and hasn't just yet, so that's why so many people are ready to move on and see what "the next guy" has got up his sleeves.

I hope Tebow's the guy. I think he can be. I'd be surprised if he doesn't win the starting job this year. However, I do think that if there's no offseason and no chance to have someone win the job, the Broncos will open with Orton.

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 04:05 PM
Not in the context of discussing whether Tebow should be playing over Orton. And again, it goes without saying that a rookie needs to improve. But an 82.1 passer rating is a good starting place.

I'll use guys like Jaws and Dilfer that break down game-tape as well as anyone in the entire NFL. Jaws has flat out SAID, that Tebow would most probably be sitting behind Ortonb ecause he has a lOOOOoong ways to go. His recognition and reading defenses are WAYYyyy behind what you need to be an effective passer in the NFL. He and a couple others (one being the LB from NE, cant remember his name) said they both thought it should be Orton starting for the entire year after watching Tebow film from last season.

topscribe
05-08-2011, 04:50 PM
lol we wouldnt even be talking about how good orton is if lloyd didnt bail his weak arm out time and time again......orton sucks its just how it is....if he was so good tebow wouldnt have played the last 3 games because orton was sucking horrribly

Oh, did you miss all of last season? I'm so sorry. Were you on the other side or
the world or something?

Let me fill you in on what happened: Until his rib injuries, Orton was at the top
of the league last year in passing plays of 30+ yards and was the top at 40+.
Until his rib injuries, Orton's completion percentage was 62%, and his QBR 96.0.
The weak arm hypothesis is so myth . . .

Orton suffered his first rib injury in the 4th quarter of the St. Louis game -- the
one in which he passed for 347 yards and three TDs in the 4th quarter, and
brought back the Broncos from 20 points down to nearly win the game -- all
in the 4th quarter.

But you might bring this up to John Elway the next time you run into him. It
was he who said that Orton performed "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level"
and then added, "and then there were those rib injuries."

I hope you get to see the Broncos this year. It must have been a drag to miss
the whole year last year . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 04:53 PM
yeah.. but Orton is the one that missed the entire season when the game is on his hands at the end of games. He was the one that "missed the season" when it came to creating plays and actually WINNING.

I know I know... its not Orton.. its yet ANOTHER injury that is the excuse. Just like the year before.. and the year before.. and the year before. No no. Not Orton just his injuries.

topscribe
05-08-2011, 05:28 PM
yeah.. but Orton is the one that missed the entire season when the game is on his hands at the end of games. He was the one that "missed the season" when it came to creating plays and actually WINNING.

I know I know... its not Orton.. its yet ANOTHER injury that is the excuse. Just like the year before.. and the year before.. and the year before. No no. Not Orton just his injuries.

I don't recall ever using Orton's injuries as excuses. I have always pointed them
out in admiration of how well he did in playing through them and how tough he
was in doing so. Playing for 1½ years on high ankle sprains is no mean feat, and,
as I said, I admire him for the way he produced while playing on them.

That is, until his rib injuries. Apparently, you have never suffered a rib injury --
I mean, a real rib injury. It is hard to breathe, let alone do things such as
throwing a football.

Shallow thinkers have just simply pointed at Orton's final two games and said
he sucked. But, in their hate for him, they apparently never bothered to find
out just why he so suddenly "sucked."

In the St. Louis game -- the one Orton passed for 347 yards and 3 TDs -- he
injured his ribs in the 4th quarter (you know, that one quarter in which he
threw 3 TDs and brought the team back from 20 points down nearly to win
the game). The very next week, in the second KC game, my friends and I
remarked on how the ball was not coming off Orton's hand like usual. And,
sure enough, he had a miserable game.

But, instead of just dismissing it as that, I paid attention as to why that
happened so suddenly. Well, as it turned out, he was playing with severely
injured ribs -- on both sides!

Truth is, he should not been allowed to play those final two games -- not only
because of performance but because of the risk of further injury.

But until that time, playing relatively healthy, Orton was completing 62% of
his passes and had a 96.0 QBR -- with a porous O-line and a last place
running game.

So that's fine: You can sit there in the comfort of your home and shout
"excuses" all you want. But the next time you get a high ankle sprain or a
severe rib injury, go out and try to throw a football . . .

-----

Juriga72
05-08-2011, 05:48 PM
So lets repeat.... NOW Orton got hurt in the St Louis game right?
so the 4 terrible games he had BEFORE the St Louis game are which injury?

When he threw the INT to lose the Jax game...which injury was THAT?
the 5-13 on third down for Baltimore was who again?

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 06:37 PM
I don't recall ever using Orton's injuries as excuses.
I have always pointed them
out
Playing for 1½ years on high ankle sprains is no mean feat

That is, until his rib injuries. Apparently, you have never suffered a rib injury --


to find
out just why he so suddenly "sucked."


Well, as it turned out, he was playing with severely
injured ribs -- on both sides!


Truth is, he should not been allowed to play those final two games -- not only
because of performance but because of the risk of further injury.


But the next time you get a high ankle sprain or a
severe rib injury, go out and try to throw a football . . .

:lol: Wow... no excuses here! :lol: this entire post is just one big GIANT contradiction as to what you were attempting to say you were NOT doing. You just made a ton of excuses based on his "injuries"... AGAIN.

Yeah... Orton has proved to be quite the winner in the NFL. But then, I guess its just the teams he's on and his injuries and not the lack of play-making he has continued to show. Gotcha :coffee:

BroncoBJ
05-08-2011, 07:02 PM
. . .

:lol: Wow... no excuses here! :lol: this entire post is just one big GIANT contradiction as to what you were attempting to say you were NOT doing. You just made a ton of excuses based on his "injuries"... AGAIN.

Yeah... Orton has proved to be quite the winner in the NFL. But then, I guess its just the teams he's on and his injuries and not the lack of play-making he has continued to show. Gotcha :coffee:

:lol: That post wins :salute: Be easy on him though. Alsheimers makes you forget stuff. :fight:

TXBRONC
05-08-2011, 07:16 PM
I attribute that to practically ZERO practice time with his receivers. It's all about timing, and it's been pretty well documented that McD did not let anyone other than Orton take snaps in practice.

Tebow's accuracy was just fine in college when he had time to practice with his receivers.

This is true.

topscribe
05-08-2011, 07:26 PM
. . .

:lol: Wow... no excuses here! :lol: this entire post is just one big GIANT contradiction as to what you were attempting to say you were NOT doing. You just made a ton of excuses based on his "injuries"... AGAIN.

Yeah... Orton has proved to be quite the winner in the NFL. But then, I guess its just the teams he's on and his injuries and not the lack of play-making he has continued to show. Gotcha

Actually, before he came to the Dove Valley wasteland, Orton was one of the
winningest QBs in the league.

But this kind of shows the mentality of some of the shallow thinkers on this
board. I look for reasons and answers, you post baseless ridicule, and you get
salutes.

But, as I said, the next time you get a severe rib injury, go out and try to
throw a football. Then come back and tell me how you did. BTW, I'll remember
your little bit here about excuses. :coffee:

-----

hamrob
05-08-2011, 07:36 PM
I've never been a big Orton supporter. I think he believes that he's alot better than he really is.

And, for those of you who are still on his bandwagon...he doesn't want to be in Denver. Why do I say this? Because if he did, then he would be following the lead of Drew Brees and Tony Romo and assembling workouts for the team. Instead, he's allowing Tebow to take care of that.

If Orton wanted to remain in Denver, he'd be reaching out to guys (including Tebow) and organizing team activities. That would show something...that at least he believes he's the guy and is acting like it. But, he's not. And for me, that's the last straw. We need to get his goofy butt out of town.

Personally, I think Tebow has what it takes. He has a ways to go. But, he won't stop until he gets there either. That's leadership! That's the type of guy I can support! My fingers are crossed for him.

hamrob
05-08-2011, 07:40 PM
Actually, before he came to the Dove Valley wasteland, Orton was one of the
winningest QBs in the league.

But this kind of shows the mentality of some of the shallow thinkers on this
board. I look for reasons and answers, you post baseless ridicule, and you get
salutes.

But, as I said, the next time you get a severe rib injury, go out and try to
throw a football. Then come back and tell me how you did. BTW, I'll remember
your little bit here about excuses. :coffee:

-----Tell me that you really aren't that ignorant. "One of the winningest quarterbacks". Come on, he played for a team with one of the leagues best defenses. He is average and slightly better than that when at his best. He is immobile and scared to make the elite throws when he needs to. He's a game manager, but not a winner. You can win with him...if you have a strong defense and running game...but, winning QB. Please!

Juriga72
05-08-2011, 07:49 PM
Actually, before he came to the Dove Valley wasteland, Orton was one of the
winningest QBs in the league.

But this kind of shows the mentality of some of the shallow thinkers on this
board. I look for reasons and answers, you post baseless ridicule, and you get
salutes.

But, as I said, the next time you get a severe rib injury, go out and try to
throw a football. Then come back and tell me how you did. BTW, I'll remember
your little bit here about excuses. :coffee:

-----

The same Bears defense that Cutler rode to playoffs this year?

topscribe
05-08-2011, 07:54 PM
I've never been a big Orton supporter. I think he believes that he's alot better than he really is.

And, for those of you who are still on his bandwagon...he doesn't want to be in Denver. Why do I say this? Because if he did, then he would be following the lead of Drew Brees and Tony Romo and assembling workouts for the team. Instead, he's allowing Tebow to take care of that.

If Orton wanted to remain in Denver, he'd be reaching out to guys (including Tebow) and organizing team activities. That would show something...that at least he believes he's the guy and is acting like it. But, he's not. And for me, that's the last straw. We need to get his goofy butt out of town.

Personally, I think Tebow has what it takes. He has a ways to go. But, he won't stop until he gets there either. That's leadership! That's the type of guy I can support! My fingers are crossed for him.

If Orton doesn't want to be here, then I don't blame him. But what does that
have to do with leadership? It seems you are trying to establish Tebow's
leadership by diminishing Orton's.

Won't stop until he gets there? I'm sure Tebow is just like that. I admire him
for that.

But how does that make Orton not a QB who will do that? What do you think
drove him to play through 1½ years on high ankle sprains and actually try to
play football with severe rib injuries? What do you think caused Orton to fight
his way back to becoming a starting QB after being thrown to the bench for
two years while the Bears tried to justify their first-round investment in the
other QB?

It just seems that I've seldom seen a "Tebow's a leader" without tacking on
an "Orton's not."

So, again, if Orton doesn't want to be here, I don't blame him a bit. I should
think he would want to be there where they wouldn't blame him for a last-
place running game and a last-place defense.

You say you think that Orton thinks he's better than he is. Well, just maybe
he's better than you think he is. I'm still rational enough through all this to say
that I don't really know how good Orton is. I would just like to see him play in
more "normal" conditions than he has so I can make a sound judgment on it.

If that puts me on Orton's "bandwagon," then so be it. I'm glad to be there.
But that doesn't mean I don't like Tebow. I do. I'm just not one of the
Tebow worshippers here. I like him simply for what I think he may be able to
do on the field.

-----

topscribe
05-08-2011, 08:01 PM
Tell me that you really aren't that ignorant. "One of the winningest quarterbacks". Come on, he played for a team with one of the leagues best defenses. He is average and slightly better than that when at his best. He is immobile and scared to make the elite throws when he needs to. He's a game manager, but not a winner. You can win with him...if you have a strong defense and running game...but, winning QB. Please!

Tell me you aren't that ignorant. Come on, Orton played for a team that ranked
#30 in pass defense. Great defense? :lol: Look it up. Orton also played behind
a pathetically porous O-line and with a pedestrian receiving corps at best.
That was not a good team he played for. Cutler proved that the very next
year.

Now, I have gone to great extent to produce facts and figures, and I have
it many, many times here. Your unfounded proclamations of what he is and
is not is very impressive.

In fact, I don't even know why I'm responding since you have chosen to
attack me personally with the "ignorant" remark. But then, that is what has
happened all along, which is why I have about a half-dozen of you in Ignore.
You and they cannot seem to respond to me without launching an attack on
me. Why is that? I didn't attack you or any of them. It is amazing to me that
some of you just cannot discuss Kyle Orton without attacking me personally.

-----

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 10:20 PM
Actually, before he came to the Dove Valley wasteland, Orton was one of the
winningest QBs in the league.

-----

:lol: Winning what? What has he won? How on EARTH can you make such a ridiculous statement?

TXBRONC
05-08-2011, 10:25 PM
:lol: Winning what? What has he won? How on EARTH can you make such a ridiculous statement?

He came to Denver having winning record at home but by no means do I remember hearing that he was one of the winningest quarterbacks in the NFL.

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 10:29 PM
What do you think drove him to play through 1½ years on high ankle sprains and actually try to
play football with severe rib injuries?

Seems to me, it wasn't "severe" until he played poorly, then the injury was labeled "severe." Funny how that works out.

But to answer the question, its pretty simple. When other QBs come in for Orton (during one of his built-in-excuses/injuries) the coaches, teammates and fans end up liking the back-up better. He's learned that the ONLY way to keep his job is to NOT let anyone see the other guy play!! :lol:

He couldn't keep Griese off the field, couldn't keep Grossman off the field, couldn't keep the Bears from "Throwing him in" for a trade.. and then couldn't keep the rookie Tebow off the field. Seem the one good thing he IS good for, is making the 'other guy' look good.

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 10:30 PM
He came to Denver having winning record at home but by no means do I remember hearing that he was one of the winningest quarterbacks in the NFL.

you know why you didn't hear about that from anyone?

TXBRONC
05-08-2011, 10:35 PM
you know why you didn't hear about that from anyone?

:nod:

zbeg
05-08-2011, 10:43 PM
you know why you didn't hear about that from anyone?

Because win/loss record is pretty dumb when you attribute it to an individual quarterback, and people who use it without looking at the context of the team are failing to see the bigger picture?

Ravage!!!
05-08-2011, 10:53 PM
Because win/loss record is pretty dumb when you attribute it to an individual quarterback, and people who use it without looking at the context of the team are failing to see the bigger picture?

No. The QB is the most important position on the field, and QBs are judged on their win-loss record and Super Bowl wins. Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him.

Orton didn't have enough starts to even be in the running to begin with. The reason NO ONE has ever mentioned Orton as being one of the QBs with the top winning % (other than Top), is because he's not.

bcbronc
05-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Actually, before he came to

the Dove Valley wasteland,

Orton was one of the winningest QBs in the league.

-----

you know, I'm not shocked when a Tebowite dumps on Elway or the franchise because of how Tebow is treated, but I'm a bit disappointed to see a long time fan show such disrespect to OUR team over an individual player.

zbeg
05-09-2011, 12:22 AM
No. The QB is the most important position on the field, and QBs are judged on their win-loss record and Super Bowl wins. Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him.


Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him? So Trent Dilfer singlehandledly won the Ravens that Super Bowl, eh? Or Brad Johnson when he QBed his team to the win? I'm sure we all think of Jim McMahon as being the sole reason why the 1985 Bears won.

Also, John Elway was a complete hack and a failure until 1997. And I'd rather have Doug Williams as my quarterback than Jim Kelly. Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him, after all.

Shananahan
05-09-2011, 12:35 AM
I wonder if topscribe wants them to resign Orton after this upcoming season. Topscribe? I'm honestly curious, not trying to argue.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 12:49 AM
Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him? So Trent Dilfer singlehandledly won the Ravens that Super Bowl, eh? Or Brad Johnson when he QBed his team to the win? I'm sure we all think of Jim McMahon as being the sole reason why the 1985 Bears won.

Also, John Elway was a complete hack and a failure until 1997. And I'd rather have Doug Williams as my quarterback than Jim Kelly. Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him, after all.

You just aren't being realistic. You don't think QBs are judged on their wins? You haven't noticed that the Patriots didn't win Super Bowls BEFORE Brady? You haven't noticed that teams like the Cowboys, 49ers, Buffalo, and Miami haven't gone to the Super Bowls since their HoF QBs have left? You think those QBs just happened to have had greatness around them and that was the reason the teams won, or was it the other way around?

You brought up examples of some of the best defenses in decades, what about the rest of the Super Bowls? The Steelers have won 6 Super Bowls.. how long was it between Super Bowl win streaks? 30 years? What was the one thing they had in common between those super bowl wins?

To use your examples of the Ravens, Bucs, and Bears.... how many Super Bowls did those QBs win? Did the teams around them COMPLETELY change after that one winning season? How many years have the Ravens, Bucs, and Bears had TOP defenses, yet each team only has ONE ring. Why is that?

Also, you COMPLETELY lost any credibility with the Elway comment. Elway was already considered a first ballot HoF'er BEFORE he won the Super Bowls. He absolutely was NOT A HACK.. at all... in the LEAST (I'm not sure you were trying to make a sarcastic comment, but if you were, it didn't make sense).

To get back on point, since you've missed it, is that of course you need a TEAM to win it all. But the point remains that QBs are judged on their WINS.. period.

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 06:30 AM
Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him? So Trent Dilfer singlehandledly won the Ravens that Super Bowl, eh? Or Brad Johnson when he QBed his team to the win? I'm sure we all think of Jim McMahon as being the sole reason why the 1985 Bears won.

Also, John Elway was a complete hack and a failure until 1997. And I'd rather have Doug Williams as my quarterback than Jim Kelly. Doesn't have anything to do with the team around him, after all.

Yes it does have something to do with team around him. Yes guys like Dilfer, Johnson and McMahon won because they had dominating defenses. However go back through the history and you'll find those guys are the exception not the rule. Most of the teams that have won the Super Bowl have done so with a franchise quarterback.

BroncoStud
05-09-2011, 06:47 AM
I don't recall ever using Orton's injuries as excuses. I have always pointed them
out in admiration of how well he did in playing through them and how tough he
was in doing so. Playing for 1½ years on high ankle sprains is no mean feat, and,
as I said, I admire him for the way he produced while playing on them.

That is, until his rib injuries. Apparently, you have never suffered a rib injury --
I mean, a real rib injury. It is hard to breathe, let alone do things such as
throwing a football.

Shallow thinkers have just simply pointed at Orton's final two games and said
he sucked. But, in their hate for him, they apparently never bothered to find
out just why he so suddenly "sucked."

In the St. Louis game -- the one Orton passed for 347 yards and 3 TDs -- he
injured his ribs in the 4th quarter (you know, that one quarter in which he
threw 3 TDs and brought the team back from 20 points down nearly to win
the game). The very next week, in the second KC game, my friends and I
remarked on how the ball was not coming off Orton's hand like usual. And,
sure enough, he had a miserable game.

But, instead of just dismissing it as that, I paid attention as to why that
happened so suddenly. Well, as it turned out, he was playing with severely
injured ribs -- on both sides!

Truth is, he should not been allowed to play those final two games -- not only
because of performance but because of the risk of further injury.

But until that time, playing relatively healthy, Orton was completing 62% of
his passes and had a 96.0 QBR -- with a porous O-line and a last place
running game.

So that's fine: You can sit there in the comfort of your home and shout
"excuses" all you want. But the next time you get a high ankle sprain or a
severe rib injury, go out and try to throw a football . . .

-----

Yet the FACT remains Orton wasn't listed on an injury report until the 2nd Raiders game, and he was being booed relentlessly, and even THEN he came out and said he was just fine.

Nice try though.

Juriga72
05-09-2011, 06:59 AM
Because win/loss record is pretty dumb when you attribute it to an individual quarterback, and people who use it without looking at the context of the team are failing to see the bigger picture?

Well. to be honest....

Kyle is his "Greatest year EVER for a NFL qb"
2005- 11 wins..................
QB rating 59.7- 34th
9td passes-30th
Pass att-20th
3rd down QB- 47.4 - 38th

Chicago Bears 2005-
#8 rushing yards/game
#9 rushing att/game

#2 total D
#11 rush D
#1 scoring D!!!!!

Yet Kyle "Leads them to victory!!!"

2010 Chicago Bears
#6 total D
#2 rush D
#7 scoring D

#22 rush O
#21 rush att/game

Jay Cutler-" WORST ever starting NFL qb"
QB rating16th
Sacked- 59- 1st
td passes- 23 13th

"Jay Cutler rode a awesome defense to barely make the playoffs, where he beats the worst ever playoff team that Kyle Orton tore apart when he was playing at a record settingpace"

BroncoStud
05-09-2011, 07:04 AM
Well. to be honest....

Kyle is his "Greatest year EVER for a NFL qb"
2005- 11 wins..................
QB rating 59.7- 34th
9td passes-30th
Pass att-20th
3rd down QB- 47.4 - 38th

Chicago Bears 2005-
#8 rushing yards/game
#9 rushing att/game

#2 total D
#11 rush D
#1 scoring D!!!!!

Yet Kyle "Leads them to victory!!!"

2010 Chicago Bears
#6 total D
#2 rush D
#7 scoring D

#22 rush O
#21 rush att/game

Jay Cutler-" WORST ever starting NFL qb"
QB rating16th
Sacked- 59- 1st
td passes- 23 13th

"Jay Cutler rode a awesome defense to barely make the playoffs, where he beats the worst ever playoff team that Kyle Orton tore apart when he was playing at a record settingpace"

This whole "Orton is a good QB" crusade is born of complete ignorance. In Chicago he was on a damn good team and held them back on offense, he was simply terrible for a lot of it. In Denver he was in a spread offense and still managed only average statistics and a LOT of losses.

Orton isn't worthy of Cutler's jockstrap, and Cutler isn't anything special.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 09:56 AM
:lol: Winning what? What has he won? How on EARTH can you make such a ridiculous statement?

Despite your constant juvenile use of the laughing icon, let me explain: winning
is usually noted by a greater number appearing in the "Wins" column (usually on
the left) than the "Losses" column (usually on the right). So if the number on the
left is greater than the number on the right, then the result can be considered
as "winning."

I hope that helps to clear it up for you. If you have any further questions, get
back to me, and I will try to break it down to an even more elementary level.

Now, when Kyle Orton joined the Broncos, his record was 23-11 (that's 23 wins
and 11 losses). He was noted at the time as having one of the best win/loss
records.

So there are the ridiculous facts. Hope that helps. :)

-----

topscribe
05-09-2011, 09:58 AM
Yet the FACT remains Orton wasn't listed on an injury report until the 2nd Raiders game, and he was being booed relentlessly, and even THEN he came out and said he was just fine.

Nice try though.

Quoting Vice President of Football Operations John Elway, verbatim: "And then
there were those rib injuries."

Nice try, though.

-----

topscribe
05-09-2011, 10:02 AM
You just aren't being realistic. You don't think QBs are judged on their wins? You haven't noticed that the Patriots didn't win Super Bowls BEFORE Brady? You haven't noticed that teams like the Cowboys, 49ers, Buffalo, and Miami haven't gone to the Super Bowls since their HoF QBs have left? You think those QBs just happened to have had greatness around them and that was the reason the teams won, or was it the other way around?

You brought up examples of some of the best defenses in decades, what about the rest of the Super Bowls? The Steelers have won 6 Super Bowls.. how long was it between Super Bowl win streaks? 30 years? What was the one thing they had in common between those super bowl wins?

To use your examples of the Ravens, Bucs, and Bears.... how many Super Bowls did those QBs win? Did the teams around them COMPLETELY change after that one winning season? How many years have the Ravens, Bucs, and Bears had TOP defenses, yet each team only has ONE ring. Why is that?

Also, you COMPLETELY lost any credibility with the Elway comment. Elway was already considered a first ballot HoF'er BEFORE he won the Super Bowls. He absolutely was NOT A HACK.. at all... in the LEAST (I'm not sure you were trying to make a sarcastic comment, but if you were, it didn't make sense).

To get back on point, since you've missed it, is that of course you need a TEAM to win it all. But the point remains that QBs are judged on their WINS.. period.

Right. You want to judge him on his record in Denver. That was all Orton.

But in Chicago where he was 23-11? No, that wasn't Orton. That was the rest of the team.

What a hypocritical double-standard. :tsk:

-----

Lonestar
05-09-2011, 10:03 AM
Unless your an Elway, manning or Brady who can carry your team to wins the QB rarely is the reason for getting the credit for wins or loses.
The wins losses measuring stick is a lousy way to measure them.
I know that some think the QBr is stupid (mainly because it disproved their argument stance) there is no better way IMO to judge the position. Wins and loses is a team stat, unless it is Elway at the helm.

I don't think ANYONE is saying that Orton is an elite QB, merely saying he is not as bad as the haters or Tebow lovers are portraying him to Be.
If surrounded by some good, not great talent will win alot of games. Maybe never be an elite QB that will carry the team totally on his shoulders, but a damned good one.
He was brought in as the BEST option when jay whined his way out if town.
Was the stop gap guy until they got quinn or then after drafting Tebow ready.
Then surprising everyone being healthy and having a couple of good WRs carried the offense last year. Until he was hurt again and the defense losing most of those games BIG. When ther was no chance of playoffs was replaced by tebow. Pretty simple to understand if your not emotionally wrapped up or your thinking logically.

BroncoJoe
05-09-2011, 10:10 AM
Right. You want to judge him on his record in Denver. That was all Orton.

But in Chicago he was benched for Rex Grossman. No, that wasn't Orton. That was the rest of the team.

What a hypocritical double-standard. :tsk:

-----

Fixed it for you.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Unless your an Elway, manning or Brady who can carry your team to wins the QB rarely is the reason for getting the credit for wins or loses.
The wins losses measuring stick is a lousy way to measure them.
I know that some think the QBr is stupid (mainly because it disproved their argument stance) there is no better way IMO to judge the position. Wins and loses is a team stat, unless it is Elway at the helm.

I don't think ANYONE is saying that Orton is an elite QB, merely saying he is not as bad as the haters or Tebow lovers are portraying him to Be.
If surrounded by some good, not great talent will win alot of games. Maybe never be an elite QB that will carry the team totally on his shoulders, but a damned good one.
He was brought in as the BEST option when jay whined his way out if town.
Was the stop gap guy until they got quinn or then after drafting Tebow ready.
Then surprising everyone being healthy and having a couple of good WRs carried the offense last year. Until he was hurt again and the defense losing most of those games BIG. When ther was no chance of playoffs was replaced by tebow. Pretty simple to understand if your not emotionally wrapped up or your thinking logically.

Even at that, the best QBs are dependent on their supporting cast. Take, for
instance, one of the best who ever played: John Elway, to whom John
Madden referred as the "greatest one-man gang I have ever seen."

Elway was just as dependent upon defense and running game as any other
QB. Only once in his five SB years did the rushing game rank lower than 12th
in the league ( in 1986 it was 20th), yet the defense ranked 9th that year. In
his other SB years:

Year……Defense…….Rush
1987…….9…………… 12
1989…….3………………6
1997…….5………………4
1998…..11………………2

(Sorry, I don’t know how to do columns here.)

In 1996, their 13-3 year, when they should have won the SB, the defense
ranked 4th in the league and rushing 1st.

In the four years from 1992 through 1995, the Broncos ranked as low as 28th
in defense and 25th in rushing. Elway’s record? .500

In 1990, the Broncos were 5-11. Defense ranked 20th that year, and rushing 14th.

In 1988, an 8-8 year, the defense was 22nd and rushing 19th.

So, you see, this idea that Elway was always a winning QB with a bad defense
and rushing game is myth.

So let’s all call Orton a loser because he was 3-10 with the last place
defense and the last place rushing game, shall we? Let’s forget that Orton
was one of the winningest QBs in the league before he came to the
wasteland in Dove Valley. Forget that he dazzled defenses and carried the
Broncos’ offense before severe rib injuries brought him down his last couple
games.

I hope Fox and Elway can think more deeply than some of the people on these
football boards.

-----

topscribe
05-09-2011, 10:17 AM
Fixed it for you.

In 2008, Orton was involved in a preseason competition against Grossman for
the starting job. Despite having only one year actually on the field, Orton beat
out Grossman for that job and never relinquished it, even after Orton suffered
his high ankle sprain.

Before you start messing with my posts, you had better check your facts . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
05-09-2011, 10:22 AM
In 2008, Orton was involved in a preseason competition against Grossman for
the starting job. Despite having only one year actually on the field, Orton beat
out Grossman for that job and never relinquished it, even after he suffered his
high ankle sprain.

Before you start messing with my posts, you had better check your facts . . .

-----

If you don't want people messing with your posts, don't post.

FACT: Rex Grossman beat out Orton. So did Griese.

I was just messing with you anyway. I do find your love for Orton hard to understand, but that's your choice.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 10:31 AM
If you don't want people messing with your posts, don't post.

FACT: Rex Grossman beat out Orton. So did Griese.

I was just messing with you anyway. I do find your love for Orton hard to understand, but that's your choice.

Again, before you start representing your fabrications as fact, you had better
check the facts, especially when you represent them to some one who knows
Orton's history as well as I.

Orton was benched in 2006 without being given the chance to compete for the
job because the FO tried to justify their first-round investment in Grossman.
Orton sat for two years while Grossman languished and busted. The Bears
then benched Grossman for Griese against the Redskins in the 14th week
(13th game) or the 2007 season, and Griese did pretty well with a 300-yard
game, IIRC. However, as I recall, Griese was hurt, so Orton came in for the
last three games, and the Bears finished those games with a 2-1 record
(hmmm . . . shades of 2010).

Then, in 2008, Lovie shipped off Griese and pitted Orton against Grossman,
and Orton assumed the starter role, which he never gave up, even after
Grossman played the one game after Orton's high ankle sprain -- Grossman
could not take the job away from an injured Orton.


P.S. Please, let's not have any Freak transplants telling me not to post on
this board. ;)

-----

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 11:41 AM
Top it comes across as convient that when you've talked about Orton's record coming in from Chicago you mention that they had the 30th ranked pass defense. In other words you him as good quarterback and had a winning record in spite of the terrible pass defense, the subpar receiving corp, a porus offensive line, and the injuries.

Fast forward to Denver you excuse his losing record because of the bad defense, the lack of running, a porous of offensive line, and the injuries. As a note he praised for playing well with an injured finger when were 6-0.

You can't have it both ways without someone taking note of it. Only from you have I heard Orton had won best records NFL. If was so damn good why did Lovie Smith trade. Btw I think it was being his home record not his record on the road.

Till me how is it that when Plummer came to town you said his record in Arizona didn't matter you only cared what his record was in Denver. Orton is the complete opposite he comes in with a winning record at home while in Chicago. If Plummer's record didn't matter coming only what accomplished here mattered then same should also apply to Orton don't you think?

rcsodak
05-09-2011, 11:59 AM
I've never been a big Orton supporter. I think he believes that he's alot better than he really is.

And, for those of you who are still on his bandwagon...he doesn't want to be in Denver. Why do I say this? Because if he did, then he would be following the lead of Drew Brees and Tony Romo and assembling workouts for the team. Instead, he's allowing Tebow to take care of that.

If Orton wanted to remain in Denver, he'd be reaching out to guys (including Tebow) and organizing team activities. That would show something...that at least he believes he's the guy and is acting like it. But, he's not. And for me, that's the last straw. We need to get his goofy butt out of town.

Personally, I think Tebow has what it takes. He has a ways to go. But, he won't stop until he gets there either. That's leadership! That's the type of guy I can support! My fingers are crossed for him.

Evidently you missed the article where it has him and his OL and decker working out? ;)

rcsodak
05-09-2011, 12:07 PM
:lol: Winning what? What has he won? How on EARTH can you make such a ridiculous statement?
He had the winningest home record, iirc (23-10?) in chicago.

lgenf
05-09-2011, 12:15 PM
Not sure how this one got into a heated hate/like orton thread, I guess just the nature of the beast in an offseason that has us all guessing what if anything is going to happen this year, and since there are no trades happening right now/ no (official) offseason workouts etc etc etc there's going to be alot of spculation as to what direction the team is headed in.

I for one and happy to see TT is working to improve (he always did at UF) and once all this crap is settled with the owners and players and some kind of camp opens up we will only then get a evaluation of where we stand.

If Denver has two avg QB's or if one has separated themselves from the pack.

My money is on TT - just from how the team responded to him at the end of a dismal season

Orton has not shown any killer instinct but I rooted for the team never the less because I wanted them to win, but anyone that watched the season has to admit, the last 3 games were WAY MORE FUN to watch then the previous 13 - if you are not willing to admit that, then nothing will convince you about the future of the team.

I don't hate Orton, I just think his time is done - he needs too much team around him to be considered a winner (not elite, just a winner) and the unknown of what TT could do, may have done etc etc ..... there's just too much upside.

rcsodak
05-09-2011, 12:18 PM
Right. You want to judge him on his record in Denver. That was all Orton.

But in Chicago where he was 23-11? No, that wasn't Orton. That was the rest of the team.

What a hypocritical double-standard. :tsk:

-----
Hmmmmm....evidently,
Chicago won those games Despite Orton's poor stats.

While, Denver lost Despite Orton's early MVP stats.

Lonestar
05-09-2011, 12:19 PM
Right. You want to judge him on his record in Denver. That was all Orton.

But in Chicago where he was 23-11? No, that wasn't Orton. That was the rest of the team.

What a hypocritical double-standard. :tsk:

-----

Only when it suits their arguement.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 12:23 PM
Unless your an Elway, manning or Brady who can carry your team to wins the QB rarely is the reason for getting the credit for wins or loses.
This is inaccurate. EVERY QB is judged on their wins and losses, despite you believing its fair or not.


I know that some think the QBr is stupid (mainly because it disproved their argument stance) there is no better way IMO to judge the position.

QB rating is the EASIEST, but it absolutely is not the best way to judge QB play. It has absolutely NO relevance to the timing of the game, the 3rd down conversions, 4th quarter play, or if/when the game is on the line, throwing the ball away, and has absolutely no consideration to wins. It doesn't account for actual PLAY, and is a lame formula that was derived PURELY for the sake of TV viewers and assigning a number to the QB so that they could compare QBs of the 1970s (it was invented in 1971) to QBs of the past and future. (btw, they still use 1970 'averages' to determine the point system)


Smith (inventor of the QBR) then got league averages for yards-per-pass-attempt (7), percentage of passes scoring touchdowns (5%), and percentage of passes intercepted (5.5%). For each of these he devised a conversion formula to give a player one point for working at that average rate, two points for a record level, and as low as zero points for really eating it. Since records are made to be broken, a score above 2 in any category -- up to 2.375 -- is possible. Every quarterback in history would receive ratings relative to those 1970 standards.

"I pay attention to my rating on third down and in the red zone," says Trent Dilfer. "Otherwise, it's most useful for fantasy football people who are more concerned with numbers than good old-fashioned winning."

"Their main problem was that no one tried to figure out mathematically how the formula worked," says Pete Palmer, a sports statistician whose book The Hidden Game of Football. blasts the calculus of the NFL formula. "You get what I think are unreasonable results."


Imagine two quarterbacks -- Super Joe and Broadway Joe -- who both drive their teams 30 yards to a touchdown in three plays. Super Joe does it with three 10-yard passes. His completion percentage is 100, and for the drive his rating is 147.9. Broadway Joe throws two incomplete passes, then on a clutch third and long he finds a receiver in the end zone -- touchdown! For the exact same result, his rating is 111.1.

The authors of The Hidden Game of Football calculate that even complete passes that lose yardage can, in some weirdball situations, boost a quarterback's rating. "There's something wrong with that,"


What about John Elway, who ended his career with a saggy rating of 79.9, even though he had the most career wins by a quarterback and a record 41 fourth-quarter game-saving drives. What about Troy Aikman (81.6), who had Emmitt Smith running behind him, so he didn't throw a lot of four-yard touchdown passes?"

Sonny Jurgensen said the real measure of a quarterback's greatness is how he does on third and long, when everybody and his bookie knows a pass is coming. Many consider Jurgensen the best pure passer of all time, but his rating of 82.6 would embarrass Jeff Garcia.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 12:25 PM
Ohhh.. HOME record of 23-10. Wow.. that means absolutely.. nothing. If only they didn't play only 50% of their games at home. That makes that stat absolutely worthless.

Lonestar
05-09-2011, 12:28 PM
Hmmmmm....evidently,
Chicago won those games Despite Orton's poor stats.

While, Denver lost Despite Orton's early MVP stats.
Go figure.

rcsodak
05-09-2011, 12:33 PM
Both jake and orton came from shit offensive teams. If anybody would like to argue that point, have at it. Both had shitty OC's/qb coaches.
When they arrived in denver, it was like a mecca to them. Shanny/kubes....mcd.
Jakes past ints were held against him, and he proved his doubters wrong by flourishing in a mature denver....+TD/-int, winning record and playoffs every year.
Orton came to a team wracked with all new coaching, and piss poor player talent.

I think its rather obvious as to the why's/how's of their comparisons.

Lonestar
05-09-2011, 12:45 PM
Both jake and orton came from shit offensive teams. If anybody would like to argue that point, have at it. Both had shitty OC's/qb coaches.
When they arrived in denver, it was like a mecca to them. Shanny/kubes....mcd.
Jakes past ints were held against him, and he proved his doubters wrong by flourishing in a mature denver....+TD/-int, winning record and playoffs every year.
Orton came to a team wracked with all new coaching, and piss poor player talent.

I think its rather obvious as to the why's/how's of their comparisons.

But then those that climbed on jay jockstrap hate both of them. Go figure.

Anyone that replaced either will be their hero.

Your not going to win arguements or debates, because they are running on motion and not on logic.

Put them Iggy. Save loads if time do nit even see their posts unless some one quotes them.

Save lots of band width.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 12:47 PM
There's hypocrisy at its best :lol:

Lonestar
05-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Let me add no one is saying that Orton is going to be HOF, nor that given equal eval time that he should be the starter. But that Tebow should not get It because by default.
Because he was drafted in the first (which many hated to start with) or that he is a new toy.

Did I see a difference in the team in the last few games last year Sure i did.
But any backup QB will look better in Tebow case there was no book on him.

The woe on the street is he is struggling reading defences and still does not have the playbook down.

If either of those are correct then he needs to sit until he is ready.

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 01:31 PM
There's hypocrisy at its best :lol:

Yep.

Juriga72
05-09-2011, 03:07 PM
Hmmmmm....evidently,
Chicago won those games Despite Orton's poor stats.

While, Denver lost Despite Orton's early MVP stats.

Ummmmmm
In 2005 Kyle Ortmmans stats states the he threw 9 touchdown passe and 12 interceptions while "Leading his team to 11 vicotries"

What part of suck do you not understand?

Top somehow thinks that Jay Cutler rode a defense to 11 wins this year by throwing 23 touchdowns


Hmmmmmmm:coffee:

BroncoStud
05-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Quoting Vice President of Football Operations John Elway, verbatim: "And then
there were those rib injuries."

Nice try, though.

-----

Elway wasn't a member of the organization THEN, so nice try back at ya.

BroncoStud
05-09-2011, 04:00 PM
Ummmmmm
In 2005 Kyle Ortmmans stats states the he threw 9 touchdown passe and 12 interceptions while "Leading his team to 11 vicotries"

What part of suck do you not understand?

Top somehow thinks that Jay Cutler rode a defense to 11 wins this year by throwing 23 touchdowns


Hmmmmmmm:coffee:

Basically, only someone who doesn't really know what a GOOD QB looks like on the field would advocate Orton as the starter of their team. Tebow is unproven, Orton has proven to be mediocre.

One simply CANNOT defend Orton without using excuse after excuse for his poor to average play and his pitiful win/loss record here in Denver. One cannot viably defend Orton and his horrible 3rd down conversion rate and redzone percentages throughout his mediocre career without digging for injury excuses, etc, etc.

One has to formulate a very intricate defense of Orton because his play and presence speaks volumes for itself. He's mediocre, not starter material - PERIOD.

Anyone who sits here and tries to say otherwise doesn't know sound football or has a personal attachment to him. Other than that their argument defies logic and history.

GEM
05-09-2011, 04:00 PM
But then those that climbed on jay jockstrap hate both of them. Go figure.

Anyone that replaced either will be their hero.

Your not going to win arguements or debates, because they are running on motion and not on logic.

Put them Iggy. Save loads if time do nit even see their posts unless some one quotes them.

Save lots of band width.

And who exactly said that you are on the side of logic? :confused: You?


Everyone is a genius....in their own eyes.

Juriga72
05-09-2011, 04:17 PM
Basically, only someone who doesn't really know what a GOOD QB looks like on the field would advocate Orton as the starter of their team. Tebow is unproven, Orton has proven to be mediocre.

One simply CANNOT defend Orton without using excuse after excuse for his poor to average play and his pitiful win/loss record here in Denver. One cannot viably defend Orton and his horrible 3rd down conversion rate and redzone percentages throughout his mediocre career without digging for injury excuses, etc, etc.

One has to formulate a very intricate defense of Orton because his play and presence speaks volumes for itself. He's mediocre, not starter material - PERIOD.

Anyone who sits here and tries to say otherwise doesn't know sound football or has a personal attachment to him. Other than that their argument defies logic and history.

Kyle Orton wins:
2005-11
2006-0
2007-2
2008-8
2009-8
2010-3


which "Hall of Fame" wing does Kyle go into?

rcsodak
05-09-2011, 04:25 PM
Basically, only someone who doesn't really know what a GOOD QB looks like on the field would advocate Orton as the starter of their team. Tebow is unproven, Orton has proven to be mediocre.

One simply CANNOT defend Orton without using excuse after excuse for his poor to average play and his pitiful win/loss record here in Denver. One cannot viably defend Orton and his horrible 3rd down conversion rate and redzone percentages throughout his mediocre career without digging for injury excuses, etc, etc.

One has to formulate a very intricate defense of Orton because his play and presence speaks volumes for itself. He's mediocre, not starter material - PERIOD.

Anyone who sits here and tries to say otherwise doesn't know sound football or has a personal attachment to him. Other than that their argument defies logic and history.
:laugh:

If you say so...

I guess RGannon/JMiller/PKirwin/TRyan don't know shit compared to you.

:lol:

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 04:46 PM
Kyle Orton wins:
2005-11
2006-0
2007-2
2008-8
2009-8
2010-3


which "Hall of Fame" wing does Kyle go into?

But wait.. what was his HOME game record?

HammeredOut
05-09-2011, 04:51 PM
This team doesn't have a chance if Tebow starts next season. I'd write the season off, and say wait 2 years before this team has a real QB in town. If Tebow starts, i'd give the Broncos between 2 and 4 wins. If Orton starts and a run game and some defense is established, i'd say they will be fighting for a playoff spot.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 05:00 PM
This team doesn't have a chance if Tebow starts next season. I'd write the season off, and say wait 2 years before this team has a real QB in town. If Tebow starts, i'd give the Broncos between 2 and 4 wins. If Orton starts and a run game and some defense is established, i'd say they will be fighting for a playoff spot.

I get your skepitism... but the truth is, Orton isn't the answer... period. Thats it. He's not the future, and purely a stop-gap. How is it you don't say "with Tebow, and a running game, and a defense..." Orton needs EVERYTHING to be in perfect place for him to succeed. He's proved that.

I honestly don't want Orton to start, but.... expect him to. I don't think Tebow is ready, and hearing from guys like Jaworski, I KNOW he's not ready (just as was said when he was drafted).

However, I would rather accept the season as a building year (and hopefully shooting for Luck) with Tebow behind center, then to dread through the year watching Orton while STILL shooting for Luck. Orton is about as boring as it comes, and gives absolutely NO excitement to this team. He certainly doesn't have the skillset to take this team to the next level. Does Tebow? Probably not, but at least he makes the games interesting to watch.

I think Ortonary is a PERFECT word for what we get with Kyle as the starter. Starts with yawns and ends with ho-hums. The only GOOD thing about starting ORton, is that it would give us a good shot at Luck next year, and THAT would be exciting!

Juriga72
05-09-2011, 05:11 PM
This team doesn't have a chance if Tebow starts next season. I'd write the season off, and say wait 2 years before this team has a real QB in town. If Tebow starts, i'd give the Broncos between 2 and 4 wins. If Orton starts and a run game and some defense is established, i'd say they will be fighting for a playoff spot.

Right up until the last home game and then Kyle would throw like...2 pick sixes


Oh wait THAT was 2009 with the:
#12 scoring defense
the #18 run O
#15 ypc


Like that kind of chance? Because I have seen that movie already and know what the ending is......

HammeredOut
05-09-2011, 05:24 PM
I get your skepitism... but the truth is, Orton isn't the answer... period. Thats it. He's not the future, and purely a stop-gap. How is it you don't say "with Tebow, and a running game, and a defense..." Orton needs EVERYTHING to be in perfect place for him to succeed. He's proved that.

I honestly don't want Orton to start, but.... expect him to. I don't think Tebow is ready, and hearing from guys like Jaworski, I KNOW he's not ready (just as was said when he was drafted).

However, I would rather accept the season as a building year (and hopefully shooting for Luck) with Tebow behind center, then to dread through the year watching Orton while STILL shooting for Luck. Orton is about as boring as it comes, and gives absolutely NO excitement to this team. He certainly doesn't have the skillset to take this team to the next level. Does Tebow? Probably not, but at least he makes the games interesting to watch.

I think Ortonary is a PERFECT word for what we get with Kyle as the starter. Starts with yawns and ends with ho-hums. The only GOOD thing about starting ORton, is that it would give us a good shot at Luck next year, and THAT would be exciting!


You can't forget, that entering the season, Orton didn't have a number 1 reciever, didn't have a healthy running game, had the worst run defense in the league.

With the numbers Kyle put up 3600 + yards and 20 touchdowns, and only 9 picks. It means he is great manager of the game and protects the ball well. For a guy who put up huge games of 476y, 370y, 341y, 314y, 307y, 347y, 296y, 295yards and only had 9 interceptions while this air show was on, I'd say the Broncos have there guy.

The main problem is the fans, since the Broncos were selecting 2nd overall, they never realized it wasn't a Kyle Orton problem, it was a Josh McDaniels problem, and he was the reason why this team was as bad as it was. To go along with his bad play calling, and defense. So the solution for the fans is, Orton has to leave because the rest of the team is that bad. He is the best player on the Broncos offense right now.

Since this team lost Shanny, Cutler, Marshall, Hillis all in the same season, this team has never been the same. They traded away the franchise WR, QB, RB, and the Coach.

Who is going to replace them. Tim Tebow, Brandon Llyod, and Moreno?>? This team is far from being a contender, if thats the answer..

HammeredOut
05-09-2011, 05:26 PM
Right up until the last home game and then Kyle would throw like...2 pick sixes


Oh wait THAT was 2009 with the:
#12 scoring defense
the #18 run O
#15 ypc


Like that kind of chance? Because I have seen that movie already and know what the ending is......

Replace Orton with who though??

Tim Tebow should be sitting next to Jamarcus Russell in the CFL, with those skills.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 05:56 PM
Top it comes across as convient that when you've talked about Orton's record coming in from Chicago you mention that they had the 30th ranked pass defense. In other words you him as good quarterback and had a winning record in spite of the terrible pass defense, the subpar receiving corp, a porus offensive line, and the injuries.

Fast forward to Denver you excuse his losing record because of the bad defense, the lack of running, a porous of offensive line, and the injuries. As a note he praised for playing well with an injured finger when were 6-0.

You can't have it both ways without someone taking note of it. Only from you have I heard Orton had won best records NFL. If was so damn good why did Lovie Smith trade. Btw I think it was being his home record not his record on the road.

Till me how is it that when Plummer came to town you said his record in Arizona didn't matter you only cared what his record was in Denver. Orton is the complete opposite he comes in with a winning record at home while in Chicago. If Plummer's record didn't matter coming only what accomplished here mattered then same should also apply to Orton don't you think?

Why is it that people try to cherry-pick my points? Your reaction is so
disingenuous that it is not worthy of a response. You have absolutely
misrepresented everything I have said over several years in the context of
one single post. I really thought you were more honest that that. :tsk:

-----

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 05:58 PM
You can't forget, that entering the season, Orton didn't have a number 1 reciever, didn't have a healthy running game, had the worst run defense in the league.

With the numbers Kyle put up 3600 + yards and 20 touchdowns, and only 9 picks. It means he is great manager of the game and protects the ball well. For a guy who put up huge games of 476y, 370y, 341y, 314y, 307y, 347y, 296y, 295yards and only had 9 interceptions while this air show was on, I'd say the Broncos have there guy.



This is all I need to read from you to see that you and I are never going to agree. You are looking at fantasy stats, and I'm watching the play on the field. There is NO WAY you are going to ever convince me that Denver has "their guy" in Kyle Orton. There is a reason that the Bears tossed Orton in on the trade, and there is a reason that we then went and used a 1st on a QB to replace him.... and its NOT because Orton is ANYONE's "guy."

You and topscribe can go buy your Orton jerseys and enjoy the love for the mediocrity. That's absolutely your right. But I hope you don't have high hopes in convincing a lot of people to drop down to this level of settling... for NO fan base wants to accept a Kyle Orton as their starter.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 05:59 PM
Elway wasn't a member of the organization THEN, so nice try back at ya.

I see. So Elway was stupid back then, but now he knows something.

Is that what you are saying?

-----

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 06:03 PM
I see. So Elway was stupid back then, but now he knows something.

Is that what you are saying?

-----

actually it means that an ex-player making a comment to the press as a fan, and the same person commenting after having actual influence to the team are completely different things.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 06:04 PM
This is all I need to read from you to see that you and I are never going to agree. You are looking at fantasy stats, and I'm watching the play on the field. There is NO WAY you are going to ever convince me that Denver has "their guy" in Kyle Orton. There is a reason that the Bears tossed Orton in on the trade, and there is a reason that we then went and used a 1st on a QB to replace him.... and its NOT because Orton is ANYONE's "guy."

You and topscribe can go buy your Orton jerseys and enjoy the love for the mediocrity. That's absolutely your right. But I hope you don't have high hopes in convincing a lot of people to drop down to this level of settling... for NO fan base wants to accept a Kyle Orton as their starter.

The perfect example of a stupid post. Do we see any documentation out of you.
Nope. Ravage says it, so that should be the last word to everybody. Hale Ravage!

I'm here to discuss issues. You are obviously here to troll, bait, and flame.

Back on Iggy you go.

-----

topscribe
05-09-2011, 06:05 PM
actually it means that an ex-player making a comment to the press as a fan, and the same person commenting after having actual influence to the team are completely different things.

In other words, Elway was really ignorant back then because he was a fan.

Boy, Mr. Bowlen really whiffed this time by hiring such a numbskull . . . :rolleyes:

-----

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 06:06 PM
The perfect example of a stupid post. Do we see any documentation out of you.
Nope. Ravage says it, so that should be the last word to everybody. Hale Ravage!

I'm here to discuss issues. You are obviously here to troll, bait, and flame.

Back on Iggy you go.

-----

:lol: At what point do you consider to be so stupid, you arrogant hypocrite? Where was I trolling, baiting, or flaming... the part that I said that he and I aren't going to agree, or the point I said where a fan BASE won't accept Orton as their starter?? :lol:

HammeredOut
05-09-2011, 06:07 PM
This is all I need to read from you to see that you and I are never going to agree. You are looking at fantasy stats, and I'm watching the play on the field. There is NO WAY you are going to ever convince me that Denver has "their guy" in Kyle Orton. There is a reason that the Bears tossed Orton in on the trade, and there is a reason that we then went and used a 1st on a QB to replace him.... and its NOT because Orton is ANYONE's "guy."

You and topscribe can go buy your Orton jerseys and enjoy the love for the mediocrity. That's absolutely your right. But I hope you don't have high hopes in convincing a lot of people to drop down to this level of settling... for NO fan base wants to accept a Kyle Orton as their starter.

Im not saying he is elite like Manning, Brees, or Brady.

While I watched every game last year, I was saying pound in the rock when we got to the end zone, but the Run game is bad. Most fans think that TD's should be fancy like a Manning or Brady pass.

The main point is, there is nobody better then Orton who can come in right now. Not Kolb, McNabb, or Bulger.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 06:08 PM
In other words, Elway was really ignorant back then because he was a fan.

Boy, Mr. Bowlen really whiffed this time by hiring such a numbskull . . . :rolleyes:

-----

Wow.. it takes soooo much to explain something SOooo simple to someone that believes themselves to be Soooo much smarter than everyone else.

How about this, genius... how about you accept that Elway most probably wouldn't make the same comments then as he would now being that he now has a 'title.'

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 06:12 PM
Im not saying he is elite like Manning, Brees, or Brady.

While I watched every game last year, I was saying pound in the rock when we got to the end zone, but the Run game is bad. Most fans think that TD's should be fancy like a Manning or Brady pass.

The main point is, there is nobody better then Orton who can come in right now. Not Kolb, McNabb, or Bulger.

I get it. You believe that Tebow is so bad, that Orton is our "only" choice. But you also stated that you believe we've found "our guy." I don't think so.

Orton is about a lame duck as you can get. As I've said before, I expect Orton to start purely based on what you said.... that we don't have other options. But I honestly would rather watch Tebow play, than Orton. Orton bores the hell out of me. We know Orton is NOT the long term answer, and we know this team isn't made to make a serious run at anything.

That being the case..I'll take watching Tebow ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over watching another season of Orton put me to sleep with his Ortonary play and inability to play well when games are on the line.

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 06:12 PM
Why is it that people try to cherry-pick my points? Your reaction is so
disingenuous that it is not worthy of a response. You have absolutely
misrepresented everything I have said over several years in the context of
one single post. I really thought you were more honest that that. :tsk:

-----

Please I have not cherry picked anything. Good grief every time someone points an inconsistent what you've said you jump up ugly in their face and respond back with condescension.

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Please I have not cherry picked anything. Good grief every time someone points an inconsistent what you've said you jump up ugly in their face and respond back with condescension.

Don't forget that everyone has ganged up on him and the thread has come about HIM

topscribe
05-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Please I have not cherry picked anything. Good grief every time someone points an inconsistent what you've said you jump up ugly in their face and respond back with condescension.

Oh? Every time? Every single time without exception? See your sophistry?

No, you made some claims about me that just are not true. When that happens,
I tend to "jump up" and defend myself. But I shouldn't really because it doesn't
do any good, as we can see right here.

I'll just let you go on with your dishonesty and won't say a thing. Have at it. I
hope it helps you to feel better and to add to your quality of life. :coffee:

-----

Ravage!!!
05-09-2011, 06:19 PM
Holy over-reaction bat man!

rcsodak
05-09-2011, 06:23 PM
Wow.. it takes soooo much to explain something SOooo simple to someone that believes themselves to be Soooo much smarter than everyone else.

How about this, genius... how about you accept that Elway most probably wouldn't make the same comments then as he would now being that he now has a 'title.'
And yet, your biased opinion ^^^ is somehow beyond reproach?
Top uses quotes, you reply with conjecture, and those that disagree with you are somehow lacking?

KCL
05-09-2011, 06:33 PM
This team doesn't have a chance if Tebow starts next season. I'd write the season off, and say wait 2 years before this team has a real QB in town. If Tebow starts, i'd give the Broncos between 2 and 4 wins. If Orton starts and a run game and some defense is established, i'd say they will be fighting for a playoff spot.

Wow I hope Bullgator doesn't see this post....:lol:

BroncoJoe
05-09-2011, 06:35 PM
Again, before you start representing your fabrications as fact, you had better
check the facts, especially when you represent them to some one who knows
Orton's history as well as I.

Orton was benched in 2006 without being given the chance to compete for the
job because the FO tried to justify their first-round investment in Grossman.
Orton sat for two years while Grossman languished and busted. The Bears
then benched Grossman for Griese against the Redskins in the 14th week
(13th game) or the 2007 season, and Griese did pretty well with a 300-yard
game, IIRC. However, as I recall, Griese was hurt, so Orton came in for the
last three games, and the Bears finished those games with a 2-1 record
(hmmm . . . shades of 2010).

Then, in 2008, Lovie shipped off Griese and pitted Orton against Grossman,
and Orton assumed the starter role, which he never gave up, even after
Grossman played the one game after Orton's high ankle sprain -- Grossman
could not take the job away from an injured Orton.


P.S. Please, let's not have any Freak transplants telling me not to post on
this board. ;)

-----

There is SO much incorrect, or better phrased, truth stretching to the above post I'm not even going to bother.

Oh, and your join date is August of 2007. Mine is December of 2007. Tell me again how you "founded" this board... :coffee:

topscribe
05-09-2011, 06:53 PM
There is SO much incorrect, or better phrased, truth stretching to the above post I'm not even going to bother.

Oh, and your join date is August of 2007. Mine is December of 2007. Tell me again how you "founded" this board... :coffee:

I did not found this board. Tned did most of the founding. However, along with
Carol and JR, and Tned, of course, I was ONE of the Founders. I also was the
very first poster on this board, except for Tned himself, and the second mod
(following Carol by about two hours). Hope that clears it up.

But I repeat, no one has researched Orton more than I. I have logged hours
upon hours of reading, game film, and live games on him. I have posted two
years worth of documentation over four different boards on him. Now, if you
want to claim what I said was incorrect, then let us see your documentation
to that effect. If you want to see mine, use the search feature. There just
comes a time when one gets tired of repeating it ad nauseam . . . although I
might write an article on Orton and post it either here or over on MHR if I
have time. We'll see . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
05-09-2011, 06:59 PM
You're not telling the whole truth, and you know it. I said Grossman beat out Orton. True. I said Griese beat out Orton. True. Your comment "Orton sat for two years while Grossman languished and busted." is ridiculous. IIRC, it was Grossman behind center in the last Superbowl the Bears have participated in.

As to the other comments, if it makes you feel good making them, all the more power to you. I've never had a problem with you before but your holier than thou attitude grows old.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 07:05 PM
You're not telling the whole truth, and you know it. I said Grossman beat out Orton. True. I said Griese beat out Orton. True. Your comment "Orton sat for two years while Grossman languished and busted." is ridiculous. IIRC, it was Grossman behind center in the last Superbowl the Bears have participated in.

As to the other comments, if it makes you feel good making them, all the more power to you. I've never had a problem with you before but your holier than thou attitude grows old.

If you don't like my posts, then don't read them. Simple. And unless you are an
historical authority on the Bears, then don't go calling me a liar. I post as
accurately as I can, and I don't need some horse's ass to come along and call
me a liar.

Now, if you know different, then document it, and I will acknowledge my
error. But it would be an error, not a lie.

Now, go back and join the rest of the Tebowners and ignore me. That would
be the best thing for you to do since my style of debate is too holy for you.

-----

BroncoJoe
05-09-2011, 07:31 PM
If you don't like my posts, then don't read them. Simple. And unless you are an
historical authority on the Bears, then don't go calling me a liar. I post as
accurately as I can, and I don't need some horse's ass to come along and call
me a liar.

Now, if you know different, then document it, and I will acknowledge my
error. But it would be an error, not a lie.

Now, go back and join the rest of the Tebowners and ignore me. That would
be the best thing for you to do since my style of debate is too holy for you.

-----

Good grief. Eat your Wheaties. I never called you a liar, so don't accuse me of it.

What exactly would you like me to document?

2005 - Orton started for the Bears
2006 - Grossman started for the Bears (SB birth) and Orton is on the bench, with zero statistics
2007 - Griese started for the Bears - Orton is on the bench, starting three games and going 2-1
2008 - Orton starts 15 games and goes 9-6 - Grossman starts one in a loss

Those are facts, and the only ones I have posted.

Oh, and your "horses ass" comment is real cute. Please act your age. TIA.

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Holy over-reaction bat man!

:lol;

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 07:55 PM
Oh? Every time? Every single time without exception? See your sophistry?

No, you made some claims about me that just are not true. When that happens,
I tend to "jump up" and defend myself. But I shouldn't really because it doesn't
do any good, as we can see right here.

I'll just let you go on with your dishonesty and won't say a thing. Have at it. I
hope it helps you to feel better and to add to your quality of life. :coffee:

-----

Oh brother. Top I didn't say you do it every single time but it isn't unusual. No I did lie. What I said is accurate. Honestly there is no need for you be condescending. :welcome:

topscribe
05-09-2011, 07:56 PM
Good grief. Eat your Wheaties. I never called you a liar, so don't accuse me of it.

What exactly would you like me to document?

2005 - Orton started for the Bears
2006 - Grossman started for the Bears (SB birth) and Orton is on the bench, with zero statistics
2007 - Griese started for the Bears - Orton is on the bench, starting three games and going 2-1
2008 - Orton starts 15 games and goes 9-6 - Grossman starts one in a loss

Those are facts, and the only ones I have posted.

Oh, and your "horses ass" comment is real cute. Please act your age. TIA.

Okay, you have all your hostility worked out now? I was wondering whether
you had a hard day or what.

Anyway, there is some error to your post. (See how I did not call you a liar?)

Your post is actually correct, except for 2007. Grossman actually started the
season and played three games. Griese then took over for several games and
did quite well for himself, actually. Then in the Oakland and Washington games,
the 12th and 13th games of the season, Grossman and Griese shared duties.

Orton took over in the 14th game and never gave up the starting job, except
for the Tennessee game in the 10th week after Orton injured his ankle the
week before against Detroit. Orton then came back the next week against
Green Bay, which was probably a mistake. He probably should have rested it
one more week. He couldn't throw the ball or run in that game.

Anyway, that's how it happened . . .

-----

Shananahan
05-09-2011, 07:58 PM
Hey topscribe, I don't think you ever answered my question. Do you want the Broncos to resign Kyle Orton to starter money at the end of this season?

topscribe
05-09-2011, 07:59 PM
Hey topscribe, I don't think you ever answered my question. Do you want the Broncos to resign Kyle Orton to starter money at the end of this season?

I don't know.

-----

Shananahan
05-09-2011, 08:03 PM
I don't know.

-----
So you want them to wait and see if he wins the starting spot first? And if he wins it, do they wait until the end of the season to resign him? Do they extend him before the end of the season, or risk losing him to free agency? In that case, would they franchise him to be sure?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm honestly curious about what the guys who think we need to stick with Orton see happening in the future.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-09-2011, 08:06 PM
WOW - sometimes you need to check the thread title to see what the thread was started about - certainly could not tell by reading some of the posts.

topscribe
05-09-2011, 08:09 PM
So you want them to wait and see if he wins the starting spot first? And if he wins it, do they wait until the end of the season to resign him? Do they extend him before the end of the season, or risk losing him to free agency? In that case, would they franchise him to be sure?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm honestly curious about what the guys who think we need to stick with Orton see happening in the future.

I guess you would have to ask the guys who think we need to stick with Orton.
All I have ever said in that interest is that I would like to see an honest QB
competition to see who should be the starter, and let the best man win.

Regarding the end of the season, I would prefer not to think that far ahead.
Too much can happen in too many different ways to make any guesses in that
area. My only thoughts right now are on 2011: whether there will be a season
at all, and, if there is, what the Broncos' record will be when the dust clears.

-----

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 08:09 PM
WOW - sometimes you need to check the thread title to see what the thread was started about - certainly could not tell by reading some of the posts.

Threads are scientific proof that evolution exists. :lol:

Shananahan
05-09-2011, 08:15 PM
I guess you would have to ask the guys who think we need to stick with Orton.
All I have ever said in that interest is that I would like to see an honest QB
competition to see who should be the starter, and let the best man win.

Regarding the end of the season, I would prefer not to think that far ahead.
Too much can happen in too many different ways to make any guesses in that
area. My only thoughts right now are on 2011: whether there will be a season
at all, and, if there is, what the Broncos' record will be when the dust clears.

-----
I'd love to have an open QB competition and honestly think Fox's style of coaching would benefit Orton. That said, I think if the team plays Orton instead of Tebow, regardless of who wins the battle, they are simple waiting a year, delaying the inevitable and forcing themselves to make a decision on the position without a clear picture of what they have on the roster.

I like Orton a lot, a it does seem that a large portion of the fanbase has turned on the guy lately for some weird reason. But the team isn't going to resign him to a longterm contract. It's just not going to happen, and if anybody seriously thinks it is I'd like to see their argument. So if we're not resigning the guy, we don't have the team to make a serious run anywhere with him and there is a young, first-round QB with a bunch of potential on the bench why the hell wouldn't we get what we could for Orton and look to the future?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-09-2011, 08:16 PM
Threads are scientific proof that evolution exists. :lol:

....or the second law of thermal dynamics exists. :lol:

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 08:18 PM
....or the second law of thermal dynamics exists. :lol:

:lol: :2thumbs:

topscribe
05-09-2011, 08:43 PM
I'd love to have an open QB competition and honestly think Fox's style of coaching would benefit Orton. That said, I think if the team plays Orton instead of Tebow, regardless of who wins the battle, they are simple waiting a year, delaying the inevitable and forcing themselves to make a decision on the position without a clear picture of what they have on the roster.

I like Orton a lot, a it does seem that a large portion of the fanbase has turned on the guy lately for some weird reason. But the team isn't going to resign him to a longterm contract. It's just not going to happen, and if anybody seriously thinks it is I'd like to see their argument. So if we're not resigning the guy, we don't have the team to make a serious run anywhere with him and there is a young, first-round QB with a bunch of potential on the bench why the hell wouldn't we get what we could for Orton and look to the future?

Not unreasonable. However, I would like for them to see what they have in
Tebow first. Both Fox and Elway have expressed they don't quite know yet.

-----

Juriga72
05-09-2011, 08:59 PM
Replace Orton with who though??

Tim Tebow should be sitting next to Jamarcus Russell in the CFL, with those skills.

ANYONE but Kyle Orton.. I know he sucks. I know he cant win games. I know he folds like a school girl at prom and gives up right on the spot.

Shananahan
05-09-2011, 08:59 PM
Not unreasonable. However, I would like for them to see what they have in
Tebow first. Both Fox and Elway have expressed they don't quite know yet.

-----
First? You mean, during training camp?

TXBRONC
05-09-2011, 10:35 PM
I'd love to have an open QB competition and honestly think Fox's style of coaching would benefit Orton. That said, I think if the team plays Orton instead of Tebow, regardless of who wins the battle, they are simple waiting a year, delaying the inevitable and forcing themselves to make a decision on the position without a clear picture of what they have on the roster.

I like Orton a lot, a it does seem that a large portion of the fanbase has turned on the guy lately for some weird reason. But the team isn't going to resign him to a longterm contract. It's just not going to happen, and if anybody seriously thinks it is I'd like to see their argument. So if we're not resigning the guy, we don't have the team to make a serious run anywhere with him and there is a young, first-round QB with a bunch of potential on the bench why the hell wouldn't we get what we could for Orton and look to the future?

I don't think that's the fanbase has turned on Orton at the same neither is front office. Right now Denver can't trade Orton even if that is their desire.

bcbronc
05-09-2011, 11:29 PM
Orton has come a long way as a QB in his two years here. full credit to him, he made some throws last season I didn't think he had in him. He also showed a lot more pocket presence than he had. considering no running game, no defense, and an OL in flux, he had a really good season.

and then came the rib injuries. and the perennial high ankle sprain. and the bruised vagina.

He's just not durable enough to be a starter in this league. All QBs get banged up over the course of the season, but Orton's play just tanks when it happens to him. Can't have that in a #1 QB.

I would have like him to embrace being Tebow's back-up (or at least want what's best for the team, not what's best for Orton) as Tebow's style of play will lead to missed series and missed games. But alas, it wasn't to be.

I've got tons of concerns over whether Tebow will ever be a winning QB in the NFL but I've already turned the page on the Orton era. I'm betting Fox and Elway have too, no matter what they say in the press.

Shananahan
05-09-2011, 11:44 PM
I would have like him to embrace being Tebow's back-up (or at least want what's best for the team, not what's best for Orton) as Tebow's style of play will lead to missed series and missed games. But alas, it wasn't to be.
What's the basis for this? When did Orton do anything to give people the impression that he doesn't want what's best for the team, but only for himself?
Stuff like this is what seems to have become accepted opinion lately, and I haven't seen any reason for it.

Why can't we like Orton, appreciate everything he's done but still also realize that it makes the most sense for his time to be over here?

NorCalBronco7
05-09-2011, 11:45 PM
Orton has come a long way as a QB in his two years here. full credit to him, he made some throws last season I didn't think he had in him. He also showed a lot more pocket presence than he had. considering no running game, no defense, and an OL in flux, he had a really good season.

and then came the rib injuries. and the perennial high ankle sprain. and the bruised vagina.

He's just not durable enough to be a starter in this league. All QBs get banged up over the course of the season, but Orton's play just tanks when it happens to him. Can't have that in a #1 QB.

I would have like him to embrace being Tebow's back-up (or at least want what's best for the team, not what's best for Orton) as Tebow's style of play will lead to missed series and missed games. But alas, it wasn't to be.

I've got tons of concerns over whether Tebow will ever be a winning QB in the NFL but I've already turned the page on the Orton era. I'm betting Fox and Elway have too, no matter what they say in the press.

Why would Orton, who's 27, embrace being Tebows backup? That just stupid. :lol:

NorCalBronco7
05-09-2011, 11:47 PM
What's the basis for this? When did Orton do anything to give people the impression that he doesn't want what's best for the team, but only for himself?
Stuff like this is what seems to have become accepted opinion lately, and I haven't seen any reason for it.

Why can't we like Orton, appreciate everything he's done but still also realize that it makes the most sense for his time to be over here?

:beer:

HammeredOut
05-09-2011, 11:48 PM
I get it. You believe that Tebow is so bad, that Orton is our "only" choice. But you also stated that you believe we've found "our guy." I don't think so.

Orton is about a lame duck as you can get. As I've said before, I expect Orton to start purely based on what you said.... that we don't have other options. But I honestly would rather watch Tebow play, than Orton. Orton bores the hell out of me. We know Orton is NOT the long term answer, and we know this team isn't made to make a serious run at anything.

That being the case..I'll take watching Tebow ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over watching another season of Orton put me to sleep with his Ortonary play and inability to play well when games are on the line.


So for instance if the Broncos would have had the New York Jets defence and run game, that a Kyle Orton wouldn't win you the big game. I agree with you on the lame duck point, as Orton did manage a team to the playoffs one season, and was limpdi*&ed out of a starting spot when it mattered. We just haven't seen it yet. Nobody knows if he can do it, and manage a game in the playoffs.

If a Kyle Orton was starting for a team like the NY Jets, and they needed 476yards in the air, or a string of 300 yard games to keep it rolling. Everybody knows Mark Sanchise would never dream of games like that. Infact, I would beg to difer that If Orton started instead of Sanchise, and that Run game and defense, Rex Ryan might have been shining up his ring and counting his plounder.

There is only 4 to six guys who are elite and make a franchise, the rest is team dependent. So get with the program.

BroncoStud
05-10-2011, 12:17 AM
I see. So Elway was stupid back then, but now he knows something.

Is that what you are saying?

-----

No, it means Elway wasn't a member of the organization when this was taking place, how would he know? He wasn't in the training room with Kyle, who has been on record as saying he was just fine.

BroncoStud
05-10-2011, 12:19 AM
:laugh:

If you say so...

I guess RGannon/JMiller/PKirwin/TRyan don't know shit compared to you.

:lol:

I guess not. I've watched enough football to know a good QB and an average QB, and Orton isn't a drop above average, and when it matters he's quite below average.

BroncoStud
05-10-2011, 12:20 AM
So for instance if the Broncos would have had the New York Jets defence and run game, that a Kyle Orton wouldn't win you the big game. I agree with you on the lame duck point, as Orton did manage a team to the playoffs one season, and was limpdi*&ed out of a starting spot when it mattered. We just haven't seen it yet. Nobody knows if he can do it, and manage a game in the playoffs.

If a Kyle Orton was starting for a team like the NY Jets, and they needed 476yards in the air, or a string of 300 yard games to keep it rolling. Everybody knows Mark Sanchise would never dream of games like that. Infact, I would beg to difer that If Orton started instead of Sanchise, and that Run game and defense, Rex Ryan might have been shining up his ring and counting his plounder.

There is only 4 to six guys who are elite and make a franchise, the rest is team dependent. So get with the program.

Puff, puff, give man... :confused:

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 12:21 AM
Tebow should start at FB. Maybe make the odd HB pass of the double reverse toss.

Shananahan
05-10-2011, 12:27 AM
There is only 4 to six guys who are elite and make a franchise, the rest is team dependent. So get with the program.
Get with the program the way the rest of the league does by looking for the next elite franchise QB? Or do you see a bunch of other teams out there building their rosters to make up for the weaknesses of their starting QB?

It's amazing that you can't see how illogical your arguments on this are. You should just stop posting about it.

TXBRONC
05-10-2011, 03:20 AM
So for instance if the Broncos would have had the New York Jets defence and run game, that a Kyle Orton wouldn't win you the big game. I agree with you on the lame duck point, as Orton did manage a team to the playoffs one season, and was limpdi*&ed out of a starting spot when it mattered. We just haven't seen it yet. Nobody knows if he can do it, and manage a game in the playoffs.

If a Kyle Orton was starting for a team like the NY Jets, and they needed 476yards in the air, or a string of 300 yard games to keep it rolling. Everybody knows Mark Sanchise would never dream of games like that. Infact, I would beg to difer that If Orton started instead of Sanchise, and that Run game and defense, Rex Ryan might have been shining up his ring and counting his plounder.

There is only 4 to six guys who are elite and make a franchise, the rest is team dependent. So get with the program.


You certainly are more than free to think that if Orton were on the Jets they might have a ring but I'm not convinced.

I'm pretty sure there are more than four to six guys who are considered franchise quarterbacks. Nevertheless every team wants one and for good reason. Most of the teams that have won the Super Bowl had a franchise quarterback leading their team. Over the last decade alone just one team has won the Super Bowl without a franchise quarterback and that was the Buccaneers in '02.

Juriga72
05-10-2011, 06:14 AM
You certainly are more than free to think that if Orton were on the Jets they might have a ring but I'm not convinced.

I'm pretty sure there are more than four to six guys who are considered franchise quarterbacks. Nevertheless every team wants one and for good reason. Most of the teams that have won the Super Bowl had a franchise quarterback leading their team. Over the last decade alone just one team has won the Super Bowl without a franchise quarterback and that was the Buccaneers in '02.

I just love how stats do not matter for Kyle...

"He was on record pace until *insert this years injury excuse*"

SO he thinks that a qb with a career 3rd down qb rating of 60 is "Elite"?

The worst part of it all is that we know..know what's going to happen when Kyle gets out there again.

In 2007 Kyle goes out there after the season is done, and guess what.. ALL of a sudden the team plays well (For their jobs NEXT year) THIS proves "Kyle is a leader"

Last year Tebow goes out there and the team plays well after the season is lost. This however "proves nothing at all, its too small a sample to gain anything from"

NOW its "Give Kyle a great running game, a great defense...and he'll win like Jake did"..yeah When our qb throws the 28th most passes..thats called a ride.

"Jay Cutler is soft for getting sacked 59 times this year, look at Kyle running for his life behind a terrible O-line"

SO lets re-cap yet again....

"Give Kyle Pro bowl recievers, a awesome running game, and a great defense ....and we are set man!!!!"

:confused:

powderaddict
05-10-2011, 07:43 AM
It's Kyle's attitude, toughness and demeanor when things are not going well for him that upsets me the most. It was plain as day to see - he would mope on to the field, shoulders slumped with a pained looking on his face. You could almost see the cloud hanging o er his head. Even earlier in the year last year he wasn't like this, and at that point I was a KO fan. But if he doesn't want to out there being a leader of men, why should I?

Tebow didn't fold when things were not going well. You could see the team feeding off his energy and passion. Is he the long term answer at QB? I don't know. But KO isn't, and Tebow at least is a leader of men.

Edited -- autocomplete on a cell strikes again :lol:

TXBRONC
05-10-2011, 08:32 AM
I just love how stats do not matter for Kyle...

"He was on record pace until *insert this years injury excuse*"

SO he thinks that a qb with a career 3rd down qb rating of 60 is "Elite"?

The worst part of it all is that we know..know what's going to happen when Kyle gets out there again.

In 2007 Kyle goes out there after the season is done, and guess what.. ALL of a sudden the team plays well (For their jobs NEXT year) THIS proves "Kyle is a leader"

Last year Tebow goes out there and the team plays well after the season is lost. This however "proves nothing at all, its too small a sample to gain anything from"

NOW its "Give Kyle a great running game, a great defense...and he'll win like Jake did"..yeah When our qb throws the 28th most passes..thats called a ride.

"Jay Cutler is soft for getting sacked 59 times this year, look at Kyle running for his life behind a terrible O-line"

SO lets re-cap yet again....

"Give Kyle Pro bowl recievers, a awesome running game, and a great defense ....and we are set man!!!!"

:confused:

The bottom line as I see it from what EFX has said and done they're sure that Tebow or Orton are franchise quarterbacks. They have named Orton the starter but he's going to have to outplay Tebow in order to keep the job. That should a rather loud signal that regardless what kind "record setting pace" they're not convinced that Orton is as good some people think.

There has been thought that the reason that Orton doesn't have the job outright is because Fox has no idea what he has in Orton or Tebow for that matter. I buy that for a minute. We have same offensive coordinator that has seen for the last two years. Over the span of his seven years in the league he has been a starter for four of them. There more than enough tape and actual work with him from at least one member of the current staff to have some kind of gage as to what they have in him. So it makes me wonder if Orton is that solid of a quarterback why are they so hesitant to say he is the starter period.

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 09:14 AM
It's Kyle's attitude, toughness and demeanor when things are not going well for him that upsets me the most. It was plain as day to see - he would mope on to the field, shoulders slumped with a pained looking on his face. You could almost see the cloud hanging o er his head. Even earlier in the year last year he wasn't like this, and at that point I was. KO fan. But if he doesn't want to out there being a leader of mine, why should I?

Tebow didn't fold when things were not going well. You could see the team feeding off his energy and passion. Is he the long term answer at QB? I don't know. But KO isn't, and Tebow at least is a leader of men.


So your convinced of Kyle's mannerisms being bad, along with the bad body language. That has nothing to do with his on field performance, for a guy who was down to the 5th or 6th running back on the depth chart.

Since Shanny is gone, its no longer Dial-a-back and 1000 yard seasons. Why is it Orton's fault that the rest of the team is as bad as they were. No run game, no run defense, no defense at all infact.

If Orton's 3rd down rating was around 60, it goes to show that this team never had a good RB in the first place. Short down yardage backs, usually plow through and get 1 or 2 yards on 3rd and short. Obvously this team lacks good running backs. Fans try to blame the O-Line a year after Ryan Clady was named one of the top lineman in the league. Just like in Cleveland, they run behind Joe Thomas like it was going out of style, the same could be done with Clady if he had a decent Running Back.

I can let you in a secret about Tim Tebow. He was never brought to denver because of his ability. He was simply drafted to denver for Jersey sales. He has the highest numbers in Jerseys sold in the NFL. Ive watched a ton of Tebow in College, and I know he was never brought into the NFL to be a starting QB. Jacksonville almost drafted him, because his jersey sales, and fan base would have brought them back out of the hole. Im never going to be convinced Tim Tebow is an NFL starter.

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Get with the program the way the rest of the league does by looking for the next elite franchise QB? Or do you see a bunch of other teams out there building their rosters to make up for the weaknesses of their starting QB?

It's amazing that you can't see how illogical your arguments on this are. You should just stop posting about it.


Sure everybody drafts for franchise, in hopes they draft a franchise guy. Thats been the history of the draft, usually the 1st overall pick is deemed "the next one".

My point is teams that don't have a franchise QB like denver, they need to start building up the rest of the team, and get the bed ready for a star to come lay in.

The last 10 years between basically 2 teams and a pair of brothers, the superbowl rings were getting shined up by these gentleman. Brady, Roth, and Mannings.

This was the year the Broncos could have drafted a QB but declined, and 4 of them went in the top 12. This would have been the year to get a top QB on the board, like Locker, Gabbert, or even Mallet in a late steal.

Broncospsycho77
05-10-2011, 09:31 AM
So your convinced of Kyle's mannerisms being bad, along with the bad body language. That has nothing to do with his on field performance, for a guy who was down to the 5th or 6th running back on the depth chart.

Since Shanny is gone, its no longer Dial-a-back and 1000 yard seasons. Why is it Orton's fault that the rest of the team is as bad as they were. No run game, no run defense, no defense at all infact.

If Orton's 3rd down rating was around 60, it goes to show that this team never had a good RB in the first place. Short down yardage backs, usually plow through and get 1 or 2 yards on 3rd and short. Obvously this team lacks good running backs. Fans try to blame the O-Line a year after Ryan Clady was named one of the top lineman in the league. Just like in Cleveland, they run behind Joe Thomas like it was going out of style, the same could be done with Clady if he had a decent Running Back.

I can let you in a secret about Tim Tebow. He was never brought to denver because of his ability. He was simply drafted to denver for Jersey sales. He has the highest numbers in Jerseys sold in the NFL. Ive watched a ton of Tebow in College, and I know he was never brought into the NFL to be a starting QB. Jacksonville almost drafted him, because his jersey sales, and fan base would have brought them back out of the hole. Im never going to be convinced Tim Tebow is an NFL starter.

About the last paragraph:

If you could logically prove the statement that Tim Tebow was brought in only for merchandise sales, and not for any kind of ability whatsoever, I would be sincerely impressed.

Because here's the two facts that you presented:
1) The Denver Broncos drafted Tim Tebow.
2) Tim Tebow has the highest jersey sales in the NFL.

And you're telling me that 2 legitimately caused 1 to occur? The fact that you imply causation between the two is what I would call a stretch. Go ahead, pretend I'm moronic for a second. Could you connect every single dot between the idea that Tim Tebow sells merchandise and the Broncos drafting him for that reason?

Because, in all honesty, I can't trust your sense of "I know what he did in college" being sufficient to persuade, well, anyone.

Don't mean to nitpick too much, but when I see massive gaps in logic, I'd rather not pretend to follow along, and would like it laid out for me. Do you have any kind of sources, implications, or anything outside of your best guess that allows you to use that statement as fact?

Because I'm perplexed.

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 09:39 AM
About the last paragraph:

If you could logically prove the statement that Tim Tebow was brought in only for merchandise sales, and not for any kind of ability whatsoever, I would be sincerely impressed.

Because here's the two facts that you presented:
1) The Denver Broncos drafted Tim Tebow.
2) Tim Tebow has the highest jersey sales in the NFL.

And you're telling me that 2 legitimately caused 1 to occur? The fact that you imply causation between the two is what I would call a stretch. Go ahead, pretend I'm moronic for a second. Could you connect every single dot between the idea that Tim Tebow sells merchandise and the Broncos drafting him for that reason?

Because, in all honesty, I can't trust your sense of "I know what he did in college" being sufficient to persuade, well, anyone.

Don't mean to nitpick too much, but when I see massive gaps in logic, I'd rather not pretend to follow along, and would like it laid out for me. Do you have any kind of sources, implications, or anything outside of your best guess that allows you to use that statement as fact?

Because I'm perplexed.

Thats exactly what the Broncos brought him in for.

If you ever watched Tim Tebow in college, just look at his LSU game, which was a big one, where Tebow only attempted like 2 passes, and the rest were option hand offs, and Tebow never saw a pass defense, just run stoping defenses who may have been fooled by the odd pass.

Im not convinced he is ever going to be a good QB because he has never sat in the pocket and faced pass defenses in college. The NFL will figure out that they may never need to get out of cover 2 when facing Tebow.

the wildhorses formation has a need for him though.

rcsodak
05-10-2011, 09:41 AM
Orton has come a long way as a QB in his two years here. full credit to him, he made some throws last season I didn't think he had in him. He also showed a lot more pocket presence than he had. considering no running game, no defense, and an OL in flux, he had a really good season.

and then came the rib injuries. and the perennial high ankle sprain. and the bruised vagina.

He's just not durable enough to be a starter in this league. All QBs get banged up over the course of the season, but Orton's play just tanks when it happens to him. Can't have that in a #1 QB.

I would have like him to embrace being Tebow's back-up (or at least want what's best for the team, not what's best for Orton) as Tebow's style of play will lead to missed series and missed games. But alas, it wasn't to be.

I've got tons of concerns over whether Tebow will ever be a winning QB in the NFL but I've already turned the page on the Orton era. I'm betting Fox and Elway have too, no matter what they say in the press.
You just said orton can't be a #1, and followed that up with the same reasoning TT wont be, either. Was that on purpose or an accident?

TXBRONC
05-10-2011, 09:50 AM
Thats exactly what the Broncos brought him in for.

If you ever watched Tim Tebow in college, just look at his LSU game, which was a big one, where Tebow only attempted like 2 passes, and the rest were option hand offs, and Tebow never saw a pass defense, just run stoping defenses who may have been fooled by the odd pass.

Im not convinced he is ever going to be a good QB because he has never sat in the pocket and faced pass defenses in college. The NFL will figure out that they may never need to get out of cover 2 when facing Tebow.

the wildhorses formation has a need for him though.

What exactly does the retelling of what Tebow against LSU have to do with your claim that the only reason Tebow was drafted for jersey sales. You said now back it with actual proof.

topscribe
05-10-2011, 09:57 AM
No, it means Elway wasn't a member of the organization when this was taking place, how would he know? He wasn't in the training room with Kyle, who has been on record as saying he was just fine.

You obviously have not been following it very closely. In a postseason presser,
Kyle admitted his ribs were injured on both sides. I personally heard it.

Regarding Elway, I guess you think he was no more informed than you are? You
think that he was just kept in the dark on everything, then this menial job of
Vice President of Football Operations for the Denver Broncos just popped up
and fell into his lap?

I followed it. I heard it. I read it. I guess you dearly want to believe that Orton's
sudden decline in performance in that second KC game was because he
naturally blows. Forget that, just the week before, he threw for 347 yards and
completed three touchdown passes in one quarter, which followed an
incredible string of 300-yard games over the season. Nope, you just want to
think that his final two games were because he just sucks.



http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Miscellaneous/PDHeadInSand.gif

No matter how much causes are ignored -- or called "excuses" -- causes still
exist. Hiding from them will not remove them.

-----

chazoe60
05-10-2011, 10:02 AM
Anybody seen Hammered's tinfoil hat?

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 10:05 AM
What exactly does the retelling of what Tebow against LSU have to do with your claim that the only reason Tebow was drafted for jersey sales. You said now back it with actual proof.

Simple.

Return on investment of a first round contract. Tebow did his job already.

BroncoStud
05-10-2011, 10:06 AM
You obviously have not been following it very closely. In a postseason presser,
Kyle admitted his ribs were injured on both sides. I personally heard it.

Regarding Elway, I guess you think he was no more informed than you are? You
think that he was just kept in the dark on everything, then this menial job of
Vice President of Football Operations for the Denver Broncos just popped up
and fell into his lap?

I followed it. I heard it. I read it. I guess you dearly want to believe that Orton's
sudden decline in performance in that second KC game was because he
naturally blows. Forget that, just the week before, he threw for 347 yards and
completed three touchdown passes in one quarter, which followed an
incredible string of 300-yard games over the season. Nope, you just want to
think that his final two games were because he just sucks.



http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Miscellaneous/PDHeadInSand.gif

No matter how much causes are ignored -- or called "excuses" -- causes still
exist. Hiding from them will not remove them.

-----

TOP, while I got a chuckle out of the head in the sand picture can you provide a link to this presser where Orton claims his injuries caused his decline? His own coach said, at the time, that Orton wasn't hurt, just sore like every other football player. Manning took a lot of hits but still continued to play at a high level. Vick did, Matt Ryan did, Matt Cassel did (except for the last 2 games), Rivers kept on fighting, so many others did.

Orton said, AT THE TIME, he was not injured. Elway was no more a part of management then than your or I were.

So, if you can provide any proof or a link to these claims, GREAT, Orton lied about not being injured, his COACH lied about him not being injured, he said he was throwing passes 70 yards (lmao, whatever) in practice THAT WEEK and he felt fine.

What am I missing here? Everyone gets banged up during the season. Only a few seem to keep using it as an excuse for poor performance.

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 10:06 AM
Anybody seen Hammered's tinfoil hat?

I think you need to turn your Tebow Jersey inside out aswell.

topscribe
05-10-2011, 10:14 AM
Anybody seen Hammered's tinfoil hat?

Where was it that Hammered made a personal comment about you?

That is what I'm talking about. Say anything positive about Orton then duck . . .

-----

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 10:19 AM
Where was it that Hammered made a personal comment about you?

That is what I'm talking about. Say anything positive about Orton then duck . . .

-----

When you proved your points, it usually results into personal attacks, inwhich we both saw. This just shows that fans don't know anything about football, other then the name on the backside of a jersey from college.

I wouldn't waste any more time posting on that dude, obvously he could careless about football and statistics, with points to prove.

TXBRONC
05-10-2011, 10:19 AM
Simple.

Return on investment of a first round contract. Tebow did his job already.

That's not proof. Throwing around monetary terms isn't.

HammeredOut
05-10-2011, 10:25 AM
That's not proof. Throwing around monetary terms isn't.

When teams are like Jacksonville were discussing sell outs because of Tebow and his florida fan base, I think any owner, or businessman would jump all over a Tebow player just from a popularity perspective. His Jersey sales speak for itself.

Thats why I said the owner has already seen a ROI return on investment. Tebow has more then made share for the team already, infact Im convinced the BRoncos made so much money from his sales, that he has earned a spot on the bench. I think the 3 games he started was to add to the Tebow craze when his sales dropped at the end of the year.