Why We Passed on Both Austin and Paea

[Ziggy]

I was one of the main ones beating the drums for Marvin Austin and/or Stephen Paea. Per a Xanders interview on the Fan yesterday, Marvin Austin had severe character issues off the field, and Paea was smaller with short arms and had troubles with double teams at times, so they decided to pass on them and take thier #1 rated safety (Rahim Moore) and #4 rated tackle (Orlando Franklin) instead. Interesting...

It sounds like they are also very high on Kevin Vickerson, and they fell that he was thier most disruptive lineman last season. They think that he can start at either NT or 3 technique in the 4-3 and shine. Going into camp he states that they initially see Miller and Mohamed at Sam, DJ and Woodyard at Will, and Mays and Irving at Mike. He said that in the 4-3 the team generally keeps 6 or 7 linebackers, depending on the special teams ability.

[sneakers]

We shouldn't have passed up on drafting Lance Harbor. He'd get the gameball every week.

[Northman]

We shouldn't have passed up on drafting Lance Harbor. He'd get the gameball every week.

Go Pack!

[TXBRONC]

I was one of the main ones beating the drums for Marvin Austin and/or Stephen Paea. Per a Xanders interview on the Fan yesterday, Marvin Austin had severe character issues off the field, and Paea was smaller with short arms and had troubles with double teams at times, so they decided to pass on them and take thier #1 rated safety (Rahim Moore) and #4 rated tackle (Orlando Franklin) instead. Interesting...

It sounds like they are also very high on Kevin Vickerson, and they fell that he was thier most disruptive lineman last season. They think that he can start at either NT or 3 technique in the 4-3 and shine. Going into camp he states that they initially see Miller and Mohamed at Sam, DJ and Woodyard at Will, and Mays and Irving at Mike. He said that in the 4-3 the team generally keeps 6 or 7 linebackers, depending on the special teams ability.

Whether a person agrees with the decision or not at least they gave an explanation that's reasonable imo.

[SOCALORADO.]

No wonder Paea did so many reps on bench press.
Those damn short armed bastages!!!

[TXBRONC]

No wonder Paea did so many reps on bench press.
Those damn short armed bastages!!!

I watched him do the reps it wasn't hard to tell he doesn't have a long reach.

[SOCALORADO.]

I watched him do the reps it wasn't hard to tell he doesn't have a long reach.

I watched it too. But i didnt really notice his arms.
If this is what they thought about these players i cant fault them.
They are the ones making these decisions, so its their draft.

[TXBRONC]

I watched it too. But i didnt really notice his arms.
If this is what they thought about these players i cant fault them.
They are the ones making these decisions, so its their draft.

It caught my eye because with Paea's arms fully extended there wasn't much air between the bar and top of his chest. It was still very impressive.

It also reminded me of a guy I played football with. He had short reach and was consistently the best at the bench press because of his short reach.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Paea's arms are 33 and 3\4". They're only half of an inch shorter than Dareus's.

His arms are average length, they're not short.....and saying that he struggles with double teams at times......uh, what 3-tech doesn't occasionally struggle with double teams? Paea's scouting report states that he's very strong at the point of attack and almost immovable. I could be wrong, but I think the Broncos made a mistake in the way they scouted this guy.

[LTC Pain]

I was one of the main ones beating the drums for Marvin Austin and/or Stephen Paea. Per a Xanders interview on the Fan yesterday, Marvin Austin had severe character issues off the field, and Paea was smaller with short arms and had troubles with double teams at times, so they decided to pass on them and take thier #1 rated safety (Rahim Moore) and #4 rated tackle (Orlando Franklin) instead. Interesting...

It sounds like they are also very high on Kevin Vickerson, and they fell that he was thier most disruptive lineman last season. They think that he can start at either NT or 3 technique in the 4-3 and shine. Going into camp he states that they initially see Miller and Mohamed at Sam, DJ and Woodyard at Will, and Mays and Irving at Mike. He said that in the 4-3 the team generally keeps 6 or 7 linebackers, depending on the special teams ability.

When the period to sign undrafted college players opens I hope the Broncos grab Marc Schiechl of Colorado School of Mines. He's a 6'2"/252/DE that will have to convert to LB in the NFL and knows it. Schiechl had 46 QB sacks in four years at CSM (Div II). The Packers and another team were at his Pro Day workout.

[TXBRONC]

Paea's arms are 33 and 3\4". They're only half of an inch shorter than Dareus's.

His arms are average length, they're not short.....and saying that he struggles with double teams at times......uh, what 3-tech doesn't occasionally struggle with double teams? Paea's scouting report states that he's very strong at the point of attack and almost immovable. I could be wrong, but I think the Broncos made a mistake in the way they scouted this guy.

Half an inch is quite bit. As I said I him watched do the bench press and he didn't have far to go from the bar to the top of his chest.

Time will tell if they made mistake but I wont claim that it this point because it's way to early.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Half an inch is quite bit. As I said I him watched do the bench press and he didn't have far to go from the bar to the top of his chest.

Time will tell if they made mistake but I wont claim that it this point because it's way to early.

It is early, but the game tape is what tells me he is explosive and powerful, not the BP. The BP only confirms what I've seen in games.

Half of an inch may be a lot compared to Dareus, but I compared him to all of the major DT prospects in the draft, and he was right in the middle....his arm length was average.

Maybe he didn't have far to go because he has so much mass in his chest and back....? :laugh:

[Softskull]

No wonder Paea did so many reps on bench press.
Those damn short armed bastages!!!

It's true. He looks like a T-Rex.

[Lonestar]

Paea's arms are 33 and 3\4". They're only half of an inch shorter than Dareus's.

His arms are average length, they're not short.....and saying that he struggles with double teams at times......uh, what 3-tech doesn't occasionally struggle with double teams? Paea's scouting report states that he's very strong at the point of attack and almost immovable. I could be wrong, but I think the Broncos made a mistake in the way they scouted this guy.

Sound like coach speak to me.

Peua is one hell of a DT mike ahead of anyone we have under contract.
Any second or even third tier guy in this draft beats our exsisting guys.

Now we HAVE to spend big bucks to shore up the middle or run the risk being a laughing stock AGAIN abiut run defense.

Not even sure they might even to have to dip into the expensive FA pool twice to become respectable.

[Ravage!!!]

It came down to taking the 6th best tackle on their board, or the #1 safety (which is just as important for our team). They chose to take the #1 safety rather than the 6th best DT.

[TXBRONC]

It came down to taking the 6th best tackle on their board, or the #1 safety (which is just as important for our team). They chose to take the #1 safety rather than the 6th best DT.

It's hard to argue that taking Moore was a bad idea.

[G_Money]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/120747104.html


In the Journal Sentinel cornerback poll of 22 scouts, Peterson received 19 first-place votes and led with 107 points.

...At safety, 16 players drew votes from a crop considered possibly the poorest in 20 years.

Rahim Moore finished first with 96 points (17 firsts), and also in double figures were Marcus Gilchrist (61, two), Da'Norris Searcy (34, one), Tyler Sash (29, one), Quinton Carter (26 1/2 ), Robert Sands (23), Chris Conte (14, one), Ahmad Black (13) and Jaiquawn Jarrett (10).

Rounding out the vote were Eric Hagg (six), DeAndre McDaniel (six), Joe Lefeged (five), Will Hill (four), DeJon Gomes (one), Chris Prosinski (one) and Jeron Johnson (one-half).

"Good luck," Indianapolis vice chairman Bill Polian said. "None of these safeties are a sure shot to play. Not one."

So Bill Polian basically figures we wasted two picks. Here's hoping the best FS and the best SS in the "poorest safety draft in 2 decades" wind up being great players, and worth more than that #6 defensive tackle.

~G

[LTC Pain]

It's hard to argue that taking Moore was a bad idea.

TX,

That's your opinion and your entitled to it. But I respectfully disagree. The majority of what I've read post-draft gives the Broncos accolades for there draft and strategy. The little criticism is centered around the Broncos not filling a need for a DT(s). Nothing critical of the Broncos taking Moore or even taking a 2nd safety later in the draft. Getting the top-rated safety in the draft in the 2nd round position the Broncos took him is rated a good value. Especially with Dawkins on board another year to mentor Moore (and Carter)

And if you read post-draft interviews with EFX, they describe not reaching for a DT just based on need or didn't like who was available when the Broncos were on the clock. Coach Fox flat out states they wanted to get a DT but stayed true to there board and drafted for value.

If you think drafting Moore was a "bad idea" then I'm not seeing it.

[G_Money]

I thought TX was saying that arguing that is WAS a bad idea to take Moore is hard to do?

I dunno if I agree with that - I can argue it pretty easily. But still, we made the call that the #1 safety was more important, or at least would have a more immediate and secure impact.

I can understand that analysis.

~G

[TXBRONC]

TX,

That's your opinion and your entitled to it. But I respectfully disagree. The majority of what I've read post-draft gives the Broncos accolades for there draft and strategy. The little criticism is centered around the Broncos not filling a need for a DT(s). Nothing critical of the Broncos taking Moore or even taking a 2nd safety later in the draft. Getting the top-rated safety in the draft in the 2nd round position is rated a good value. Especially with Dawkins on board another year to mentor Moore (and Carter)

And if you read post-draft interviews with EFX, they describe not reaching for a DT just based on need or didn't like who was available when the Broncos were on the clock. Coach Fox flat out states they wanted to get a DT but stayed true to there board and drafted for value.

If you think drafting Moore was a "bad idea" then I'm not seeing it.

Brother you misread my post. I'm saying it's hard to make an argument NOT to take Moore. In other words, I think it was a good pick.

[TXBRONC]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/120747104.html



So Bill Polian basically figures we wasted two picks. Here's hoping the best FS and the best SS in the "poorest safety draft in 2 decades" wind up being great players, and worth more than that #6 defensive tackle.

~G

Polian is one of the best but it's not as if he hasn't whiffed on his fair share of picks.

[rationalfan]

Paea's arms are 33 and 3\4". They're only half of an inch shorter than Dareus's.

His arms are average length, they're not short.....and saying that he struggles with double teams at times......uh, what 3-tech doesn't occasionally struggle with double teams? Paea's scouting report states that he's very strong at the point of attack and almost immovable. I could be wrong, but I think the Broncos made a mistake in the way they scouted this guy.

arm length isn't the problem. it's the length from the end of the hand to the chest that, i presume, is the problem. it's short reach, not short arms.

of course, i couldn't pick paea out of a lineup. just using some common logic.

[G_Money]

Polian is one of the best but it's not he hasn't whiffed on his fair share of picks.

Sure. We just need him to whiff on this evaluation, too. :cool:

~G

[LTC Pain]

Brother you misread my post. I'm saying it's hard to make an argument NOT to take Moore. In other words, I think it was a good pick.

After re-reading your post, I did take it wrong. So we agree!!! :beer: :D: :coffee:

[Juriga72]

Paea's arms are 33 and 3\4". They're only half of an inch shorter than Dareus's.

His arms are average length, they're not short.....and saying that he struggles with double teams at times......uh, what 3-tech doesn't occasionally struggle with double teams? Paea's scouting report states that he's very strong at the point of attack and almost immovable. I could be wrong, but I think the Broncos made a mistake in the way they scouted this guy.

I read where the Bears thinki Paea will be better at the 3 then Tommie Harris was.....

The world has started to spin again...... I have to sit down

[Ziggy]

Paea will be playing next to Peppers, so that will help his career a whole lot. Time will tell. I was very high on him coming into the draft.

[SOCALORADO.]

Paea will be playing next to Peppers, so that will help his career a whole lot. Time will tell. I was very high on him coming into the draft.

GREAT PICK!! PROPS!!!:beer::defense::beer:

[TXBRONC]

Sure. We just need him to whiff on this evaluation, too. :cool:

~G

I sure hope missed the boat on this one.

[G_Money]

Paea will be playing next to Peppers, so that will help his career a whole lot. Time will tell. I was very high on him coming into the draft.
Yeah, short-armed Paea was one of the guys I really wanted, because I figured he would be there in the 2nd and therefore reasonably cheap, and was voted the toughest DT in the Pac-10 2 years running by the OL in that league.

And he's Tongan. Bring it. :D

Ah well. We should win the award for "most dreds" on defense at least, and if we can get that back 7 to fly around like rampaging wildebeasts then maybe we can make the front 4 look better while we get some talent to help them actually BE better.

Again, we sign Mebane and Cofield and you won't hear me bitchin' about the draft, even if I think it woulda been great to have Paea understudy them for a couple of years (especially Mebane, since they're in the same mold).

If our best FA add is Marcus Thomas... :tsk:

~G

[TXBRONC]

Paea will be playing next to Peppers, so that will help his career a whole lot. Time will tell. I was very high on him coming into the draft.

I don't why people are getting so worked all Denver has to do is sign the Navy Seals in your sig, problem solved.

[Lonestar]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/120747104.html
So Bill Polian basically figures we wasted two picks. Here's hoping the best FS and the best SS in the "poorest safety draft in 2 decades" wind up being great players, and worth more than that #6 defensive tackle.

~G
Good post
let me add that safeties are a dime a dozen compared to DT.

Would peau been the #6 DT in Any other year? Hard to tell.

But give me a good super Strong Samoan in the middle of the dline anyday over maybe safeties.

[Lonestar]

Sure. We just need him to whiff on this evaluation, too. :cool:

~G

I'll take polian and his whiffs any day over what we have had the past decade +

The number of his whiffs pales in comparison to the number of our daft choices that sign a second contract WITH US.

[Montana Battlin Bear]

Nothing said about Haggan?? Hmmm....

[Cugel]

It came down to taking the 6th best tackle on their board, or the #1 safety (which is just as important for our team). They chose to take the #1 safety rather than the 6th best DT.

It ALWAYS comes down to the "6th tackle" versus the #1 or #2 somebody! EVERY SINGLE YEAR!

It's going to be the same damn thing NEXT year too! That's because there are so few elite DTs that teams reach for them. Every DT with real potential and no serious black marks goes in the first round -- its almost as bad as QBs. :coffee:

So unless the Broncos are willing to reach along with everybody else they're NEVER going to get an elite DT unless they have another top 5 pick! Or unless they get fabulously lucky like Detroit did this year.

That's just the reality of life in the NFL.

Here's Austin's "character concerns":


Summary: Marvin Austin has ability commensurate with a top-15 pick. However, linemen with questionable motivation are tough to gamble on in the NFL Draft. Austin is a former top recruit as a prep and had an opportunity to cement his draft stock with a solid 2010 campaign. Instead he was suspended for the entire season for improper contact with an agent and was considered the central culprit in the scandal that cost the Tar Heels several players.

The time off is going to cloud Austin's evaluation. On the field he is a terror. With his speed, he can run down running backs and get after quarterbacks. There is a lot to like, and the reward could outweigh the risk at the end of the first round or early in the second.

Player Comparison: Tank Johnson. The common thread here is obviously lack of motivation. When these players have their foot on the pedal, good things happen. Unfortunately that is not often enough. Johnson gets some sacks and plays the run well just like Austin profiles as a pro. There is also a weapons theme here. Austin likes guns. Just look at his Twitter feed. Guns and tanks go together right?

In short, he fell afoul of the NCAA's hypocritical and asinine rules. Did he shoot somebody? Brandish his gun at police during a routine traffic stop? Run over a meter-maid when she dared to write him a ticket? Get stopped at the airport with the "Original Whizz-inator", a fake penis that helps you beat random drug tests? Did he flunk multiple drug tests and admit that he just can't live without weed?

Does he have 9 different "baby-mamas"? Was he arrested for accessory to felony murder after he helped cover up a homicide by one of his "posse" at a night club?

Did he molest a drunken teen-ager in the bathroom of a night-club? Did he get into a fight with gang members in Toronto because he's carrying $50,000 worth of "bling" and wind up getting robbed and sent to the emergency room? Did he send explicit "sext" messages and nude pictures to a team "spokesmodel" 20 years younger than him?

NO. He talked to an agent. "Stop the presses!" :coffee:

Every one of those examples is of a current or recent NFL player. And the NFL had no trouble with any of them. Not one of these players got more than a tap on the wrist.

Does he take plays off sometimes? Yes. Will some team have to work with him to achieve his potential? Yes.

Is he a perfect candidate with no black marks? No. Are you going to find such a paragon outside the top 5 picks of the draft? No.

The Broncos screwed up. Plain and simple. And they're going to have the same problems this year and next year they've had the last five years:

You can't fill your DT rotation though FA. Not without spending a GIANT portion of your salary cap and probably not even then. It's not going to work.

Just say hello to the new equivalent to:

Amon Gordon, Antwon Burton, Jimmy Kennedy, John Engleberger, Gerrard Warren, Sam Adams, Ron Fields, Jamal Williams, DeWayne Robertson, Etc., etc.

"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss." :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

How many "elite" tackles have been taken in the draft and whiffed. How many in the last draft alone? How many in the draft before? Please don't try to convince me that the only way this team gets better is by taking a chance on an "elite" tackle PURELY based on taking one high in the draft.

There are more valuable DTs in the NFL that were taken later than the first round than taken in the first. There is absolutely no reason to think, for a moment (unless you are just blinded by emotion) that we "blew our one and ONLY chance" to get a DT in the draft purely because we didn't take one with the #2 pick. I find that to be completely absurd.

[Cugel]

How many "elite" tackles have been taken in the draft and whiffed. How many in the last draft alone? How many in the draft before? Please don't try to convince me that the only way this team gets better is by taking a chance on an "elite" tackle PURELY based on taking one high in the draft.

There are more valuable DTs in the NFL that were taken later than the first round than taken in the first. There is absolutely no reason to think, for a moment (unless you are just blinded by emotion) that we "blew our one and ONLY chance" to get a DT in the draft purely because we didn't take one with the #2 pick. I find that to be completely absurd.

Players can "whiff" at any position. That's meaningless. That doesn't stop teams from drafting them.

Why did the Giants and Bears take chances on Austin and Paea? Because you need elite DTs to have a great defense and the reward outweighs the risk.

The proof? Look at their defensive history! Those two teams have been putting together among the best defenses in the NFL for decades now. They consistently know how to draft and create great defenses.

To pretend that you can find "elite DTs" in the later rounds is just fantasy. :coffee:

First, there were NOT "more valuable DTs" taken in the later rounds. Check Football Outsiders and see. DTs are the 2nd most highly drafted position in football, behind QBs. The majority of starters in then NFL were drafted in the first and second round.

There's a REASON why so many DL get drafted in the first round, and it's NOT that they are better athletes than the safties, RTs, G's, WRs, RBs, LBs and others who get taken later! Was any DT a better athlete than Patrick Peterson?

It's because there are fewer good big men than good little men. The bigger, the fewer. There are lots of guys who are fast & athletic -- and 6'2" 240. There are damn FEW guys who are fast and athletic -- and 6'4" 310!

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Players can "whiff" at any position. That's meaningless. That doesn't stop teams from drafting them.

Why did the Giants and Bears take chances on Austin and Paea? Because you need elite DTs to have a great defense and the reward outweighs the risk.

The proof? Look at their defensive history! Those two teams have been putting together among the best defenses in the NFL for decades now. They consistently know how to draft and create great defenses.

To pretend that you can find "elite DTs" in the later rounds is just fantasy. :coffee:

First, there were NOT "more valuable DTs" taken in the later rounds. Check Football Outsiders and see. DTs are the 2nd most highly drafted position in football, behind QBs. The majority of starters in then NFL were drafted in the first and second round.

There's a REASON why so many DL get drafted in the first round, and it's NOT that they are better athletes than the safties, RTs, G's, WRs, RBs, LBs and others who get taken later! Was any DT a better athlete than Patrick Peterson?

It's because there are fewer good big men than good little men. The bigger, the fewer. There are lots of guys who are fast & athletic -- and 6'2" 240. There are damn FEW guys who are fast and athletic -- and 6'4" 310!

So you're telling me you need elite DTs to have a great defense? That's not true at all. Look at the (arguably) best defense in the NFL, the Pittsburgh Steelers. If you watch any of their games (and I do being near Pittsburgh), they use speed at LB and aggressive defensive backs in multiple schemes to put pressure on the backfield and O-line. Sorry for all you Casey Hampton fans, but I don't consider him an "elite" tackle in this league. Not to mention, they blitz A LOT. Drafting the best pass rushing LB in the draft at 2 tells me we might be trying to do something similar down the road...food for thought.

Also, a lot of the play on defense from the Giants and Bears isn't from elite DTs wreaking havoc on opposing offensive lines. They just take up blocks and their tackles come from the surrounding LBs and DEs putting pressure on the backfield from the edge.

My point is that you don't need "elite" DTs to have a good defense. With all the talent in the NFL, I think a good defense comes from the ability for a coach or coordinator to get the players to play to their potential. Repetition, experience, and chemistry also are big factors.

Do we need a better DT? Yes, but the draft wasn't necessarily the answer. We can still get a young DT in FA who's already developed. Now is that going to happen? Well, our history says no, but I can still hope. I'm really getting tired of people that keep saying we should've drafted a DT, now our D will suck (paraphrased, but that's the gist of it). Draft a DT, develop him to where he's good in 3 years, and then our problems are solved? Please.

[Superchop 7]

Well, my guy Deandre McDaniel, in 2008 lost it with his girlfriend, really screwed up. Then he evaluated his life, became a great student, teamate, and studies film like no one else in college. He looked in the mirror and did something about it.

I think even on you tube, you can see that Deandre can flat out play with Rahim Moore.
In the box, he is a great run stuffer. Takes great angles, almost identical speed, and will lay the wood.

They just whiffed, Moores pick should have gone DT, because they still could have had a good safety for less.

The Broncos are nuts if they don't target McDaniel as an undrafted player. Just show him the money!

Look, we all know B Dawk will probably miss some games.....have a guy (McDaniel) waiting in the wings and save a draft pick next year. (The kid would be great on special teams)

And for the record Paea is Tongan, from New Zealand. Check out his pro day tape and see the wallop he has in his punch move...best I have seen in awhile...very fit for a 300 lb guy, I have no doubt he could even play DE and have great leverage like Doom.

Or...lets look at Paea vs Franklin pick.

Pac 10 defensive PLAYER OF THE YEAR vs acc honorable mention guy? ( that will end up a guard....not a RT btw)

It just doesn't make sense.

[SOCALORADO.]

So you're telling me you need elite DTs to have a great defense? That's not true at all. Look at the (arguably) best defense in the NFL, the Pittsburgh Steelers. If you watch any of their games (and I do being near Pittsburgh), they use speed at LB and aggressive defensive backs in multiple schemes to put pressure on the backfield and O-line. Sorry for all you Casey Hampton fans, but I don't consider him an "elite" tackle in this league. Not to mention, they blitz A LOT. Drafting the best pass rushing LB in the draft at 2 tells me we might be trying to do something similar down the road...food for thought.

Also, a lot of the play on defense from the Giants and Bears isn't from elite DTs wreaking havoc on opposing offensive lines. They just take up blocks and their tackles come from the surrounding LBs and DEs putting pressure on the backfield from the edge.

My point is that you don't need "elite" DTs to have a good defense. With all the talent in the NFL, I think a good defense comes from the ability for a coach or coordinator to get the players to play to their potential. Repetition, experience, and chemistry also are big factors.

Do we need a better DT? Yes, but the draft wasn't necessarily the answer. We can still get a young DT in FA who's already developed. Now is that going to happen? Well, our history says no, but I can still hope. I'm really getting tired of people that keep saying we should've drafted a DT, now our D will suck (paraphrased, but that's the gist of it). Draft a DT, develop him to where he's good in 3 years, and then our problems are solved? Please.

Your crazy. Hampton is the 2nd best NT in the NFL.
Hampton was selected in the first round, 19th overall and for good reason. Yeah, you need really good NT/DTs and PITT has a few.
And this was the deepest draft for 4-3 DTs and DEs in a decade.
And yes, successful teams draft DTs and NTs and in 2-3 years they are good. And then those teams problems are solved, at that position, which is the anchor to their defense's success.
And yes, they take up blocks. Thats their specific job.

[kennu]

I think a big mistake all fans (including myself) tend to make after a draft is to think of it like it's a one year thing. We were 4-12 last season. If they didn't think a DT was worth taking there, that's fine. It's going to take more than one draft, and more than one offseason, to make this club a contender again. So passing on a DT in this draft doesn't mean we think we're fine with this interior line for the rest of eternity. It meant the brass thinks Moore will be a better contributor to a winning club down the line than either Austin or Paeaeaeaea.

In short (which I could have just started with, I suppose), this is a multi-year process. You can't take one weekend's worth of activity and say they do or don't know what they're doing.

[Juriga72]

I think a big mistake all fans (including myself) tend to make after a draft is to think of it like it's a one year thing. We were 4-12 last season. If they didn't think a DT was worth taking there, that's fine. It's going to take more than one draft, and more than one offseason, to make this club a contender again. So passing on a DT in this draft doesn't mean we think we're fine with this interior line for the rest of eternity. It meant the brass thinks Moore will be a better contributor to a winning club down the line than either Austin or Paeaeaeaea.

In short (which I could have just started with, I suppose), this is a multi-year process. You can't take one weekend's worth of activity and say they do or don't know what they're doing.

when you gcan get 5-6 d-linemen into a probowl for the rookie year.....

YOU take them.

Lets go back to 2009 shall we???
Pass d-3rd
Run d-26th


Want to guess what this year will look like again?

[SOCALORADO.]

I think a big mistake all fans (including myself) tend to make after a draft is to think of it like it's a one year thing. We were 4-12 last season. If they didn't think a DT was worth taking there, that's fine. It's going to take more than one draft, and more than one offseason, to make this club a contender again. So passing on a DT in this draft doesn't mean we think we're fine with this interior line for the rest of eternity. It meant the brass thinks Moore will be a better contributor to a winning club down the line than either Austin or Paeaeaeaea.

In short (which I could have just started with, I suppose), this is a multi-year process. You can't take one weekend's worth of activity and say they do or don't know what they're doing.

Clearly your have not been a DEN fan long.
This is a long standing issue with the FO of this team.
Historically they REFUSE or are leery of drafting defensive linemen.
No, its not because the players arent good. Its a philosophy issue.
Again, as i've already stated, this was the DEEPEST draft at 4-3 DT and DE in a decade!!! Its no suprise that teams with historically really good, defenses like the NYG or CHI took 4-3 DTS in the 2nd round.
DEN has had issue for years going back to Shanny and his drafting of DTs or DEs and then having massive issues with these really good players due to contract disputes and Shannys personal disdain for the position. Then theres the releasing or not resigning of these players and Shanny going to someone elses trash, such as the "browncos" years, to try solve the issue. Which failed in spectacular fashion. Then of course you have our boy wonder Joshy who thought he could do basically the same thing, by bringing in Jamal Williams who is like 40 years old and a career back up in Bannan to man the middle. FAIL.
The Denver Broncos have a big issue in the middle of their defense, and they just continue to ignore it. Thats why this team has basically sucked for over a decade, and doesnt even sniff the playoffs anymore. Thats also why opposing teams run up the middle like its the Grand Canyon. You know, like all those teams did last year.

[kennu]

SOCALORADO,
You're right, in fact I'm new to being a Broncos fan as I just had to get away from the Redskins.

However, you can talk about "historically" all you want, but this is a new front office and a new coaching staff with a new defensive scheme. Surely you can't put Shanahan and McDaniels' failures on Elway/Xanders/Fox's drafting strategy, can you? Just because you've witnessed past failures in the same uniform doesn't mean they will continue to happen with different people making the decisions.

If the draft the next Ndamukong Suh in 2012, will you complain? Maybe they'd rather do that than have to be committed to Paea/Austin, who they weren't that thrilled with. That's my point.

[Fan in Exile]

How many "elite" tackles have been taken in the draft and whiffed. How many in the last draft alone? How many in the draft before? Please don't try to convince me that the only way this team gets better is by taking a chance on an "elite" tackle PURELY based on taking one high in the draft.

There are more valuable DTs in the NFL that were taken later than the first round than taken in the first. There is absolutely no reason to think, for a moment (unless you are just blinded by emotion) that we "blew our one and ONLY chance" to get a DT in the draft purely because we didn't take one with the #2 pick. I find that to be completely absurd.

I just want to point out that no matter where in the draft an elite DT gets taken they all have one thing in common. THEY GOT TAKEN.

[Ravage!!!]

I just want to point out that no matter where in the draft an elite DT gets taken they all have one thing in common. THEY GOT TAKEN.

I get that. However, I don't think we "Missed our ONE OPPORTUNITY" (as was expressed by Cugal many times) to get an elite DT simply because we chose not to take a DT with the #2 overall pick.

I think the reaction is just a bit over board. I love that we are getting back to having stud LBs in Denver. I felt safety and MLB was as important of a need as any other position on the field.

People had their hopes up for something, and as soon as it didn't fall into their tiny pocket of expectations, everything else is just bad.

[Traveler]

Well, my guy Deandre McDaniel, in 2008 lost it with his girlfriend, really screwed up. Then he evaluated his life, became a great student, teamate, and studies film like no one else in college. He looked in the mirror and did something about it.

I think even on you tube, you can see that Deandre can flat out play with Rahim Moore.
In the box, he is a great run stuffer. Takes great angles, almost identical speed, and will lay the wood.

They just whiffed, Moores pick should have gone DT, because they still could have had a good safety for less.

The Broncos are nuts if they don't target McDaniel as an undrafted player. Just show him the money!

Look, we all know B Dawk will probably miss some games.....have a guy (McDaniel) waiting in the wings and save a draft pick next year. (The kid would be great on special teams)

And for the record Paea is Tongan, from New Zealand. Check out his pro day tape and see the wallop he has in his punch move...best I have seen in awhile...very fit for a 300 lb guy, I have no doubt he could even play DE and have great leverage like Doom.

Or...lets look at Paea vs Franklin pick.

Pac 10 defensive PLAYER OF THE YEAR vs acc honorable mention guy? ( that will end up a guard....not a RT btw)

It just doesn't make sense.

As you stated, didn't McDaniel go undrafted? Just saying....

[SOCALORADO.]

I get that. However, I don't think we "Missed our ONE OPPORTUNITY" (as was expressed by Cugal many times) to get an elite DT simply because we chose not to take a DT with the #2 overall pick.

I think the reaction is just a bit over board. I love that we are getting back to having stud LBs in Denver. I felt safety and MLB was as important of a need as any other position on the field.

People had their hopes up for something, and as soon as it didn't fall into their tiny pocket of expectations, everything else is just bad.

Not really. I get what your sayin. But this is a long standing issue with the Broncos. Its sorta become a curse to many of us. The whole lack of attention in regards to the D-line. More importantly the DT/NT position.
1st, many of us are of the opinion that a defense is built from the front to the back. Now we who think this are really setting ourselves up for disappointment considering that in DEN, they seem to think its built from the back to the front! LOL!
But what is even more disconcerting is the obvious fact that not only has this ideology not worked, but they (DEN FO) seem to refuse to address it even though it does work for all the most successful teams in the NFL.
I dont think that the picks in this draft were bad, i liked the picks, i just dont think those picks were what DEN needed to address their most glaring need for many, many years. And many of us feel that because this glaring need has not been addressed, it has led to the team being as bad as it has been for so dang long.
Thats all.

[Ravage!!!]

Not really. I get what your sayin. But this is a long standing issue with the Broncos. Its sorta become a curse to many of us. The whole lack of attention in regards to the D-line. More importantly the DT/NT position.
1st, many of us are of the opinion that a defense is built from the front to the back. Now we who think this are really setting ourselves up for disappointment considering that in DEN, they seem to think its built from the back to the front! LOL!
But what is even more disconcerting is the obvious fact that not only has this ideology not worked, but they (DEN FO) seem to refuse to address it even though it does work for all the most successful teams in the NFL.
I dont think that the picks in this draft were bad, i liked the picks, i just dont think those picks were what DEN needed to address their most glaring need for many, many years. And many of us feel that because this glaring need has not been addressed, it has led to the team being as bad as it has been for so dang long.
Thats all.


I believe NFL teams revolve around the QB position, not DTs. I dont' think not having a DT has kept this team down (and we most CERTAINLY HAVE NOT been "bad for so long" as you stated). Denver was ahead of the game back in our Super Bowl years by the way we used FA. Teams around the NFL mimicked us in building their teams.

Teams around the NFL continuously search for that QB. Someone talked about how long the Bears have had a great defense. Yet, how many playoff games have they won? Even after having generations of having great defenses (as we were just told above by Cugal), the only time they WON the Super Bowl was when their defense was the greatest of all time (25 yrs ago), and a few years ago when it was pretty DAMNED good... yet LOST to a great offense. The other team mentioned was the Giants. How many Super Bowls have they won in the 'generations" of great defenses? What did it finally take for them to get back?

The NFL is built around the offense. The rules are made for the offense to succeed. GETTING that QB is the absolute key to building a well rounded team. Believe it or not, despite spending 10 y ears to look, we finally had our piece. Thats not overly long time to search. Look how long Pittsburgh went between franchise QBs, Dallas, Buffalo...San Fran or Miami. All teams that used to be perennial playoff/super bowl contenders STILL looking for that piece. Hell, look how long it was for Indianapolis to find Manning and NE to find Brady...or NO to acquire Brees. Once we had it, the rest of the offense was quickly falling in line. That gave us the opportunity to concentrate on the defense to become well rounded.

As we know, that completely was destroyed. Instead, we spent picks on RBs, blocking TEs, and OL. Then we used 1st round picks to replace the offensive talent that was already in place.

Now everything is starting over again. You'll see. I wasn't kidding when I said that trade would put us back 10years, and I wasn't exaggerating. Doesn't matter if the QB traded was "elite" or not. DOesn't matter if he ever would hve been top 5 in the NFL. What matters is the domino effect that it took and the toll it has had.

Now we are back to an Offense that is mediocre at best, and a bad defense instead of having a good/Very good offense and a defense to concentrate on.

So you want to concentrate on the DL.. got it. But there are SOOO many holes that have been created in just TWO years. Yes, I know you are going to say "this has been a problem for ever" and it has, but as I said... once you get that QB things fall into place. The Steelers were NOT SUper Bowl contenders despite having a good defense with Maddox behind center. Strange how the stud QB can make the offense better.. WHICH.. makes the defense better. Orton does NOT, at all, help our defense. He hurts our defense.

So we start the circle over again. You can say "but we need to address that DT spot" all you want, and say that "whats the QB position ahve to do with drafting an OL instead of a DT".. and the answer is because teams want to get the QB position ironed out. The OL keeps the QB on the field, and HOPEFULLY helps the defense.

This is a league of passing and getting TO the passer. Getting TO their QB is more important to ANY NFL team than any other portion of the defense. The QB is the centerpiece of the team in so many ways.

[SOCALORADO.]

I believe NFL teams revolve around the QB position, not DTs. I dont' think not having a DT has kept this team down (and we most CERTAINLY HAVE NOT been "bad for so long" as you stated). Denver was ahead of the game back in our Super Bowl years by the way we used FA. Teams around the NFL mimicked us in building their teams.

Teams around the NFL continuously search for that QB. Someone talked about how long the Bears have had a great defense. Yet, how many playoff games have they won? Even after having generations of having great defenses (as we were just told above by Cugal), the only time they WON the Super Bowl was when their defense was the greatest of all time, and a few years ago when it was pretty DAMNED good... yet LOST to a great offense.

The NFL is built around the offense. The rules are made for the offense to succeed. GETTING that QB is the absolute key to building a well rounded team. Believe it or not, despite spending 10 y ears to look, we finally had our piece. Thats not overly long time to search. Look how long Pittsburgh went between franchise QBs, Dallas, Buffalo...San Fran or Miami. All teams that used to be perennial playoff/super bowl contenders STILL looking for that piece. Hell, look how long it was for Indianapolis to find Manning and NE to find Brady...or NO to acquire Brees. Once we had it, the rest of the offense was quickly falling in line. That gave us the opportunity to concentrate on the defense to become well rounded.

As we know, that completely was destroyed. Instead, we spent picks on RBs, blocking TEs, and OL. Then we used 1st round picks to replace the offensive talent that was already in place.

Now everything is starting over again. You'll see. I wasn't kidding when I said that trade would put us back 10years, and I wasn't exaggerating. Doesn't matter if the QB traded was "elite" or not. DOesn't matter if he ever would hve been top 5 in the NFL. What matters is the domino effect that it took and the toll it has had.

Now we are back to an Offense that is mediocre at best, and a bad defense instead of having a good/Very good offense and a defense to concentrate on.

So you want to concentrate on the DL.. got it. But there are SOOO many holes that have been created in just TWO years. Yes, I know you are going to say "this has been a problem for ever" and it has, but as I said... once you get that QB things fall into place. The Steelers were NOT SUper Bowl contenders despite having a good defense with Maddox behind center. Strange how the stud QB can make the offense better.. WHICH.. makes the defense better. Orton does NOT, at all, help our defense. He hurts our defense.

So we start the circle over again. You can say "but we need to address that DT spot" all you want, and say that "whats the QB position ahve to do with drafting an OL instead of a DT".. and the answer is because teams want to get the QB position ironed out. The OL keeps the QB on the field, and HOPEFULLY helps the defense.

This is a league of passing and getting TO the passer. Getting TO their QB is more important to ANY NFL team than any other portion of the defense. The QB is the centerpiece of the team in so many ways.

I get what your sayin. I agree that QB is the centerpiece. Its the most important position in all of sports. I get it.
But its nice to have a Hampton or a Wilfork from drafting as well. They do tend to help an awful lot.
No worries Rav! Next year you will have your QB!:D

http://images.athlonsports.com/d/18051-1/matt+Barkley.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

I don't know anything about Barkley. Not exactly the QB I would wish for. If I get my wish, we'll get Luck. But that's a hard thing to 'wish' for when it would require us to have the worst season in the NFL. ALthough, its tempting to rub the genie bottle.

[TXBRONC]

I get what your sayin. I agree that QB is the centerpiece. Its the most important position in all of sports. I get it.
But its nice to have a Hampton or a Wilfork from drafting as well. They do tend to help an awful lot.
No worries Rav! Next year you will have your QB!:D

http://images.athlonsports.com/d/18051-1/matt+Barkley.jpg

I'm huge USC but right now I would still take Luck over Barkley.

[SOCALORADO.]

I'm huge USC but right now I would still take Luck over Barkley.

Of course! I would take Luck over Barkley too.
But hes a close 2nd, and i dont think DEN will be picking #1.

Barkley has a cannon. He can make any NFL throw. Golden arm.
Not only can he throw the rocket ball, he has really good touch and accuracy.
As a freshman he had a 60.0 completion %. as a freshman. Hes a baller.
6-2 230, he did have a knee injury last year but fully recovered. Wears a brace. Not the most elusive runner, but he has great pocket awareness and is extremely good and making space inside the pocket, while scanning downfield. Hes the total package.

2. Matt Barkley*, USC
Height: 6-2. Weight: 230.
Projected 40 Time: 4.83.
Projected Round (2012): Top 10 Pick.
7/25/10: As a true freshman, Matt Barkley threw for 2,735 yards, 15 touchdowns and 14 interceptions for USC, maintaining a 7.8 YPA and 59.9 completion percentage. Pretty impressive considering the circumstances. As long as the strong-armed Barkley keeps improving and lives up to the hype, he'll be a top 10 pick in the 2012 or 2013 NFL Draft.
http://walterfootball.com/draft2012QB.php

[Ravage!!!]

Hmmm.. sounds like a SC fan boosting up the player of a SC player. Seems we have a few of those around here boosting up Tebow.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Your crazy. Hampton is the 2nd best NT in the NFL.
Hampton was selected in the first round, 19th overall and for good reason. Yeah, you need really good NT/DTs and PITT has a few.
And this was the deepest draft for 4-3 DTs and DEs in a decade.
And yes, successful teams draft DTs and NTs and in 2-3 years they are good. And then those teams problems are solved, at that position, which is the anchor to their defense's success.
And yes, they take up blocks. Thats their specific job.

I'm not crazy. Where does a good defense rank for you because not all of them have elite DTs. With regards to Hampton he is a good DT, but he's what 34 and entering his 12 season? His production has been cut in half 2 of the past 3 years with him playing all but maybe 1 game of each season. I consider him elite 4-7 years ago, but not anymore. I'll put wilfork and ratliff into the elite NT category and everyone else is second best.

If Suh was on the board at 2, I would have taken him. He is a beast, but I didn't see anyone close to Suh in this draft (dareus and fairley will be good, but no suh). And no, not all successful teams draft DTs and NTs and in 2-3 years they are good. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't. If we would've drafted a DT, it's not guaranteed our problems will be solved at that position in 2-3 years. I think we got better valued picks than drafting a DT this year. If it's still an issue next year, well we will probably be back where we started this year. If we pass on Jerel Worthy at that time, then I will hop into your DT drafting bandwagon and ride off into the sunset...(and luck would have to be off the board)

[jhildebrand]

Whether a person agrees with the decision or not at least they gave an explanation that's reasonable imo.

Its nice having Dove Valley back after McDaniels turned it into the Kremlin.

I admire their honesty and willingness to speak/transparency

[SOCALORADO.]

Hmmm.. sounds like a SC fan boosting up the player of a SC player. Seems we have a few of those around here boosting up Tebow.

You'll be a Barkley fan by next draft!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/images/12/21/usc_clicks.jpg

This is a common sight on any socal beach. Very normal. Women here are very happy, they love to play brass, and they are not shy when it comes to wearing USC cheer outfits to the beach. Very normal.
http://sportscracklepop.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/song-girls.jpg
We also love kayaking. Its very popular here.
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/538793/song_girls_tahoe_2010_12.jpg
Good judgement is also a hallmark of any USC alum. Thats just obvious.
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/usc%20cheer%20girls%20john%20martinez%20pavliga.JP G

Ron Burgundy also attends all of our games, so how can you not be down with that!?!?!?
http://mryoder1.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/rise_i_wferrell1_400.jpg

[SOCALORADO.]

I'm not crazy. Where does a good defense rank for you because not all of them have elite DTs. With regards to Hampton he is a good DT, but he's what 34 and entering his 12 season? His production has been cut in half 2 of the past 3 years with him playing all but maybe 1 game of each season. I consider him elite 4-7 years ago, but not anymore. I'll put wilfork and ratliff into the elite NT category and everyone else is second best.

If Suh was on the board at 2, I would have taken him. He is a beast, but I didn't see anyone close to Suh in this draft (dareus and fairley will be good, but no suh). And no, not all successful teams draft DTs and NTs and in 2-3 years they are good. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't. If we would've drafted a DT, it's not guaranteed our problems will be solved at that position in 2-3 years. I think we got better valued picks than drafting a DT this year. If it's still an issue next year, well we will probably be back where we started this year. If we pass on Jerel Worthy at that time, then I will hop into your DT drafting bandwagon and ride off into the sunset...(and luck would have to be off the board)

So now your trying to downplay that Hamptons career, because its on the downward spiral, and hes 34 but was not good?!?! WTF!?!?
Jeez, he went to the Pro Bowl 5 times, 3 in a row. But apparently hes not good anymore cause hes 34. But when he came into the NFL, he was if not the best one of the best. Nevermind those SB rings too.
What are you talking about with D-linemen never working!!?!?! Really!??!
You mean like when SD took NT Jamal Williams with a supplemental draft pick!?! How did that work out!?!?
Or how bout Brandon Mebane, everyones on his nuts right now, but he seems to have panned out as a 3rd round pick!?!? How bout him!?!?
Why is NT Paul Soliai the richest defender in MIA history?!?! Huh. Must be pretty good to get that kind of $$$$$$$$.
4th round draft pick.
The list goes on and on. Just because a player might not make an immediate impact isnt reason to not draft him. Thats just idiotic.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I don't know about Barkley, but I love those USC cheerleader sweaters. Damn!

[Nomad]

I don't know about Barkley, but I love those USC cheerleader sweaters. Damn!

I know there is always a first time, BUT USC QBs aren't very successful in the NFL. USC does, on the other hand, always have cuties to fill those sweaters!

[Dzone]

I wonder how Paea feels about brian xanders saying they passed on him because he was too short and his arms were too short. I would be pissed

[I Eat Staples]

What are Austin's character issues that are so serious? He was suspended for doing something that every single player does.

And Barkley will be a very good pro.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

So now your trying to downplay that Hamptons career, because its on the downward spiral, and hes 34 but was not good?!?! WTF!?!?
Jeez, he went to the Pro Bowl 5 times, 3 in a row. But apparently hes not good anymore cause hes 34. But when he came into the NFL, he was if not the best one of the best. Nevermind those SB rings too.
What are you talking about with D-linemen never working!!?!?! Really!??!
You mean like when SD took NT Jamal Williams with a supplemental draft pick!?! How did that work out!?!?
Or how bout Brandon Mebane, everyones on his nuts right now, but he seems to have panned out as a 3rd round pick!?!? How bout him!?!?
Why is NT Paul Soliai the richest defender in MIA history?!?! Huh. Must be pretty good to get that kind of $$$$$$$$.
4th round draft pick.
The list goes on and on. Just because a player might not make an immediate impact isnt reason to not draft him. Thats just idiotic.

You missed my point. Our definitions of elite differ and you won't get that I guess. My point is Pittsburgh had the best overall defense in the NFL and Hampton had one of the worst years in his past 11 seasons. I'm not downplaying his career. He is a pro bowl NT, but he didn't show it last year and they still had the best defense. Didn't I say I considered him elite 4-7 years ago?

I'm getting pretty tired of people such as yourself making such pessimistic comments without seeing any results. Is this your mindset for the rest of the offseason? I'm beginning to question your fandom.

Your post picks out a few DTs that had good careers and leaves out all the other ones drafted who were flops. Again, there is no guarantee of the results you predict from just drafting a DT.

Not to mention, you exaggerated and blew out of proportion about everything I said. I seem to miss any post of mine that says d-lineman never work. Can you point that out to me?

Please, just keep complaining. Hopefully the FO hears you, turns back time and re-drafts so that we can make you happy.

[I Eat Staples]

I'm beginning to question your fandom.

Come on, we're all fans here. Everything else in that post was good.

[SOCALORADO.]

You missed my point. Our definitions of elite differ and you won't get that I guess. My point is Pittsburgh had the best overall defense in the NFL and Hampton had one of the worst years in his past 11 seasons. I'm not downplaying his career. He is a pro bowl NT, but he didn't show it last year and they still had the best defense. Didn't I say I considered him elite 4-7 years ago?

I'm getting pretty tired of people such as yourself making such pessimistic comments without seeing any results. Is this your mindset for the rest of the offseason? I'm beginning to question your fandom.

Your post picks out a few DTs that had good careers and leaves out all the other ones drafted who were flops. Again, there is no guarantee of the results you predict from just drafting a DT.

Not to mention, you exaggerated and blew out of proportion about everything I said. I seem to miss any post of mine that says d-lineman never work. Can you point that out to me?

Please, just keep complaining. Hopefully the FO hears you, turns back time and re-drafts so that we can make you happy.

So basically your either on the bandwagon and no one else can have an opinion that the team blew it in regards to not drafting for the weakest position on the team, in the deepest draft at that specific position in decades or your Kevin Vickerson posting here. Right. Got it.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Come on, we're all fans here. Everything else in that post was good.

Sorry, this guy is just starting to get on my nerves by putting words in my mouth.

With regards to your post about Austin, I got the impression his demeanor during the interview process also turned a lot of teams including us off.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

So basically your either on the bandwagon and no one else can have an opinion that the team blew it in regards to not drafting for the weakest position on the team, in the deepest draft at that specific position in decades or your Kevin Vickerson posting here. Right. Got it.

Oh man you got me. That was a good post from you...lot of depth and insight.

This is a bronco fan forum and in any forum, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Even me, who respectfully disagrees with what you have to say.

[SOCALORADO.]

Sorry, this guy is just starting to get on my nerves by putting words in my mouth.

With regards to your post about Austin, I got the impression his demeanor during the interview process also turned a lot of teams including us off.

Kevin, you havent been around here long enough to see someone get on your nerves, and let me tell ya, i am a easy going, lightweight when it comes to disagreements over specific topics. Just wait till the heavyweights weigh in.
:welcome:

[Warhawk]

From piece Bob McGinn writes in the Milwakee Journal Sentinel based on comments from scouts:



Marvin Austin*, DT, ex-North Carolina: 6-2, 310. Was suspended last season for improper dealings with an agent and declared a year early. "He is really talented," one scout said. "If he had any character at all he'd be a first-round pick." Started 25 of 38 games, finishing with nine sacks. "He's a punk, but he has special, special feet and he can run," another scout said. "He does some (athletic) stuff you go, 'Holy (expletive).' " Added a third scout: "I don't think he's a nose tackle. I think he's a three-technique. He's a move guy. He has some lower-back issues. That is what precludes him from being a real stout two-gap guy."


I don't think you'd see this stuff if it was just an naive error in judgement that got him in trouble at NC. Looks like there is more going on under the surface.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Kevin, you havent been around here long enough to see someone get on your nerves, and let me tell ya, i am a easy going, lightweight when it comes to disagreements over specific topics. Just wait till the heavyweights weigh in.
:welcome:

If they actually comment on the things I said instead of putting words in my mouth like you did, then I welcome and look forward to it.

Since I'm now Kevin Vickerson, I'll take that to heart and enjoy being a millionaire thanks to this fine Broncos organization. Seeing as though I am currently a starter on your 2011-12 roster, I hope you enjoy watching me every football Sunday of this year. :cool:

[TXBRONC]

What are Austin's character issues that are so serious? He was suspended for doing something that every single player does.

And Barkley will be a very good pro.

He didn't slide all the way to mid to late second round for nothing.

[Dzone]

From what I heard on 104.3, the bronco FO is very high on Vickerson...6-5, 325

[gobroncsnv]

Well, we pretty much know that doing without good play at DT is not the key to a great defense... And the Steelers have Hampton (yeah, he plays nose, if you want to get into the semantics of it, but he shores up well the front center of their D)... Williams was great for SD, but we didn't get him until he was washed up or uninterested...
For me, I'm tired of trying to field a defense without a decent dline. Great DE's are fabulous, but many times, those kinds of guys can just be ran over. All speed, no power.
So we'll see how Fox answers this bell. If this doesn't get fixed, we'll not generate the traction needed to get out of the basement for defense rankings.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Come on, we're all fans here. Everything else in that post was good.

Fan police. :tsk:

[tomjonesrocks]

I guess I'm finally getting over not taking a DT in the draft. If I'm a conspiracy theorist, perhaps their little trade-back in the 2nd blew up in their face and they don't want to admit it, but X came off pretty well in his interview and at least to me the disclosed thought process sounded plausible. If this team were one position away (as others mentioned we really were in 2006) I'd not accept what he said, but filling holes on what I think is the least talented roster in the NFL (yes I said it, including Carolina) can't be an easy job.

On the other hand, that OT better pan out. :P

[TXBRONC]

I guess I'm finally getting over not taking a DT in the draft. If I'm a conspiracy theorist, perhaps their little trade-back in the 2nd blew up in their face and they don't want to admit it, but X came off pretty well in his interview and at least to me the disclosed thought process sounded plausible. If this team were one position away (as others mentioned we really were in 2006) I'd not accept what he said, but filling holes on what I think is the least talented roster in the NFL (yes I said it, including Carolina) can't be an easy job.

On the other hand, that OT better pan out. :P

After the draft Elway made the comment that when they traded back they realized that they would miss out on some players by trading back.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/120747104.html



So Bill Polian basically figures we wasted two picks. Here's hoping the best FS and the best SS in the "poorest safety draft in 2 decades" wind up being great players, and worth more than that #6 defensive tackle.

~G

And NOBODY can build a defense like Bill Polian can build a defense...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Here is my take on things. Paea and Austin were overvalued by fans/mocks. Austin is a d-bag and Paea benched well while having very little football experience. Side Note: look at the bench press record list at the combine. Any of themm still in the league? Anyway, I still wanted them in round 2. But who am I? I bitched about this for days. But I've changed my mind a bit. Here is a question that a Steeler fan asked me, which caused me to re-think my position...

"If Denver's 3-4 defense was that bad against the run, why are you blaming the Dlinemen? There are only 3 of them afterall. Shouldn't the crappy LBs get some blame?"

A point I had never considered, but it does make sense. Sure, our DLine wasn't great, but our LBs also didn't help too much. Ayers was learning/hurt. Elvis wasn't there. DJ was out of position AGAIN. And the rest were no names.

Moving to a 4-3 in and of itself should improve the DLine play. Our NTs and some 34 DEs are now our DTs. Our LBs (hopefully now healthy) are our DEs along with a 34 DE holdover or 2. And we actually infused LB talent. OUR FRONT 7 IS BETTER. DT may not have been the focus, but stopping the run is the responsibility of the entire front seven AND the Safety help in the box. So maybe taking 2 Safeties wasn't such a terrible idea. Just sayin...

[TXBRONC]

And NOBODY can build a defense like Bill Polian can build a defense...

I wouldn't say that.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I wouldn't say that.

It was a joke. Just felt it ironic that the guy who built the current shitty Indy defense is making comments on defenders. That's all.

[TXBRONC]

It was a joke. Just felt it ironic that the guy who built the current shitty Indy defense is making comments on defenders. That's all.

Ugh sorry I missed it.

[Lonestar]

So basically your either on the bandwagon and no one else can have an opinion that the team blew it in regards to not drafting for the weakest position on the team, in the deepest draft at that specific position in decades or your Kevin Vickerson posting here. Right. Got it.

Not to mention this has been a chronic issue for going on a decade

Not even sure of the who last DT that was taken on day one that ever played for us. That goes back along way.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Not to mention this has been a chronic issue for going on a decade

Not even sure of the who last DT that was taken on day one that ever played for us. That goes back along way.

Gerard Warren...but we also werent the ones who drafted him...

[Elevation inc]

Paea's arms are 33 and 3\4". They're only half of an inch shorter than Dareus's.

His arms are average length, they're not short.....and saying that he struggles with double teams at times......uh, what 3-tech doesn't occasionally struggle with double teams? Paea's scouting report states that he's very strong at the point of attack and almost immovable. I could be wrong, but I think the Broncos made a mistake in the way they scouted this guy.

he stated it was shorter arms with a 6 ft frame that size being that small thats what shied them away from paea and it makes sense to me i was never a fan of his ever.....

[TXBRONC]

he stated it was shorter arms with a 6 ft frame that size being that small thats what shied them away from paea and it makes sense to me i was never a fan of his ever.....

Well you're just a hard ass. J/K

[Elevation inc]

Well you're just a hard ass. J/K

lol Al knows i Love him....lol

right AL????:D


Im just saying after Dareus/Fairley and Wilkerson were gone the only 2 other DT's i liked were drake nevis(who is tiny) and terrell Mcclain(work ethic concerns) so to be honest im not that upset.

Seattle took aaron curry at 3 a couple years back and have played him at SAM.....he has been a good draft pick for them but he isnt half the Lb prospect Miller is. Im stoked with Miller and moore as our first 2 picks in fact I havent been this happy about a draft since 2006.....

[TXBRONC]

lol Al knows i Love him....lol

right AL????:D


Im just saying after Dareus/Fairley and Wilkerson were gone the only 2 other DT's i liked were drake nevis(who is tiny) and terrell Mcclain(work ethic concerns) so to be honest im not that upset.

Seattle took aaron curry at 3 a couple years back and have played him at SAM.....he has been a good draft pick for them but he isnt half the Lb prospect Miller is. Im stoked with Miller and moore as our first 2 picks in fact I havent been this happy about a draft since 2006.....

The more I think about it the better I feel about this draft even though we didn't take a defensive tackle.

[I Eat Staples]

He didn't slide all the way to mid to late second round for nothing.

I know, that's why I'm asking. What did he do that was so alarming other than the suspension?

[TXBRONC]

I know, that's why I'm asking. What did he do that was so alarming other than the suspension?

I can't remember if it was Elway or Fox but one of them said after the draft that Austin had character issues that they were concerned about. It didn't get anymore specific than that.

[BeefStew25]

Guys lets have a giant tailgate one game.

[TXBRONC]

Guys lets have a giant tailgate one game.

That could be fun.

[BeefStew25]

That could be fun.

Come on. I want to meat you bad.

[TXBRONC]

Come on. I want to meat you bad.

Ah no I'm spoken for.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It came down to taking the 6th best tackle on their board, or the #1 safety (which is just as important for our team). They chose to take the #1 safety rather than the 6th best DT.

I understand that argument, but it's not that simple.


When the DT's are really deep and safety is the weakest position in the draft, then that argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me.

Ultimately, it comes down to which player has more of a chance to make an impact at the next level. However, I can't say I know for sure because I haven't watched Moore play, but statements like, "best safety in a very weak class" give me no comfort. :lol:

I have watched Paea play, and he was an animal with a motor. He was constantly double teamed. He took no one by surprise because he's been a difference maker for the Beavers since his sophomore year. The dude isn't just strong, he's also quick and explosive. He's a hard worker who keeps himself in great shape. That's the kind of guy I'd love in the orange and blue.

[underrated29]

We knew the D was not going to be turned completely around in one year.


While I am disappointed that we did not get a DT at all. I do really like our draft- except for loading up on TEs...Still scratching my head.


But we did fix our defense with possible starters so that all we will really need through UFDA, FA/TRades and next years draft is DT.

I would argue that LB (MLB-if irving is not he is cracked up to be and WLB if we boot DJ) is a need and another DE.

We have good depth at S again, and DEs and CBs.




If we can target a high profile DT, and draft them yet again, we are close imo.....real real close.--YES- this does mean that our Safteis moore and carter and irving and Von have to pan out. But from what I have been reading that seems more than likelyl

I would like a full write up on Irving and Moore, but so far the positves are out weighing the negatives.

[TXBRONC]

We knew the D was not going to be turned completely around in one year.


While I am disappointed that we did not get a DT at all. I do really like our draft- except for loading up on TEs...Still scratching my head.


But we did fix our defense with possible starters so that all we will really need through UFDA, FA/TRades and next years draft is DT.

I would argue that LB (MLB-if irving is not he is cracked up to be and WLB if we boot DJ) is a need and another DE.

We have good depth at S again, and DEs and CBs.




If we can target a high profile DT, and draft them yet again, we are close imo.....real real close.--YES- this does mean that our Safteis moore and carter and irving and Von have to pan out. But from what I have been reading that seems more than likelyl

I would like a full write up on Irving and Moore, but so far the positves are out weighing the negatives.

I think the tight ends actually make sense if Tebow becomes the starting quarterback.

[underrated29]

I think the tight ends actually make sense if Tebow becomes the starting quarterback.



But 3 of them?


The first one makes sense.



Who do we have now?
big dick
that guy from detroit-alphozo trade-bro is in ne-
drafted rookie
drafted rookie
drafted rookie

Right?

I dont know, that is 5 TEs right there. I think that is a bit much. I do agree with you though of having a TE for timmy.

But i do have faith in big dick. I like what i saw from him last TC.

[TXBRONC]

But 3 of them?


The first one makes sense.



Who do we have now?
big dick
that guy from detroit-alphozo trade-bro is in ne-
drafted rookie
drafted rookie
drafted rookie

Right?

I dont know, that is 5 TEs right there. I think that is a bit much. I do agree with you though of having a TE for timmy.

But i do have faith in big dick. I like what i saw from him last TC.

We only drafted two tight ends this year. We may still have five in fold right now but I doubt we keep all of them.

[Elevation inc]

I understand that argument, but it's not that simple.


When the DT's are really deep and safety is the weakest position in the draft, then that argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me.

Ultimately, it comes down to which player has more of a chance to make an impact at the next level. However, I can't say I know for sure because I haven't watched Moore play, but statements like, "best safety in a very weak class" give me no comfort. :lol:

I have watched Paea play, and he was an animal with a motor. He was constantly double teamed. He took no one by surprise because he's been a difference maker for the Beavers since his sophomore year. The dude isn't just strong, he's also quick and explosive. He's a hard worker who keeps himself in great shape. That's the kind of guy I'd love in the orange and blue.


had rahim moore come out the year prior he would have been a top 25 lock....problem is even though he didnt have a bad year, he didnt have ten int's like the year before he had only 1, however many people fail to realize they also stopped throwing his way its kinda like when champ had his insane year in 2005, then next year no one threw at him and everyone thought he was done becasue he didnt match the ten INT's the year prior.

Allen knows Db's and especially safties as does fox if they have moore as there best one and we need a safety i wont disagree from my couch...lol

[Elevation inc]

We only drafted two tight ends this year. We may still have five in fold right now but I doubt we keep all of them.

lol im pretty sure outside of grownkowski as our only starting TE option currently we will probally be cutting both Marquez and finally dick quinn, also dont forget we let graham go...lol so the 2 Pass catching TE's with insane potential and good hands was a needed risk......unlike MCD TE's will have a role here......

[TXBRONC]

lol im pretty sure outside of grownkowski as our only starting TE option currently we will probally be cutting both Marquez and finally dick quinn, also dont forget we let graham go...lol so the 2 Pass catching TE's with insane potential and good hands was a needed risk......unlike MCD TE's will have a role here......

When I saw Quinn try to catch a pass for the first time I was sure that I was seeing the second advent of Roberto "hands of stone" Duran. :nod:

[underrated29]

lol im pretty sure outside of grownkowski as our only starting TE option currently we will probally be cutting both Marquez and finally dick quinn, also dont forget we let graham go...lol so the 2 Pass catching TE's with insane potential and good hands was a needed risk......unlike MCD TE's will have a role here......



dude, we cut branzon last year in pre season. That guy flat out sucked!!!!!

I mean real bad.


I doubt we cut big dick. I liked what I saw from him in TC last year. I bet he makes the roster.



I would guess, big dick, gronkowski, rookie TE--other rookie goes to PS.

[TXBRONC]

dude, we cut branzon last year in pre season. That guy flat out sucked!!!!!

I mean real bad.


I doubt we cut big dick. I liked what I saw from him in TC last year. I bet he makes the roster.



I would guess, big dick, gronkowski, rookie TE--other rookie goes to PS.

Maybe I missed it but I have not been impressed with him or Gronkowski. I think one of them will be cut.

[dunk7]

I don't think the argument should be whether we should have taken Moore or Paea, it should be whether we should have take Franklin or Paea. Our safety play was atrocious so I don't disagree with taking the highest rated safety but passing on Paea with the second pick was a mistake IMHO. Paea will be a beast for the Bears. Rugby players are insanely tough.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I don't think the argument should be whether we should have taken Moore or Paea, it should be whether we should have take Franklin or Paea. Our safety play was atrocious so I don't disagree with taking the highest rated safety but passing on Paea with the second pick was a mistake IMHO. Paea will be a beast for the Bears. Rugby players are insanely tough.

The argument that he was undersized is weak as well. Doom is undersized, he seems to be ok.

[SOCALORADO.]

The argument that he was undersized is weak as well. Doom is undersized, he seems to be ok.

Check Brandon Mebanes size!
Everybody and their mother is on his nuts right now! LOL!
Mebane
Height: 6-1 Weight 311
Arm Length: 33 in
Paea
Height: 6-1 Weight 305
Arm Length: 32 7/8 in
Wow. Just wow.
:defense:

[underrated29]

I don't think the argument should be whether we should have taken Moore or Paea, it should be whether we should have take Franklin or Paea. Our safety play was atrocious so I don't disagree with taking the highest rated safety but passing on Paea with the second pick was a mistake IMHO. Paea will be a beast for the Bears. Rugby players are insanely tough.




Yes, we should have. Many of us had us taking an ORT in the 2nd/3rd round. Ryan Harris is not coming back and we have NO one behind him.

Sure zane can kick out to RT, but he is not the mauling road grader franklin is, and then who would play LG? That one guy from new england. He sucked balls worse- so much so I can not even remember his name. Our OL depth is lacking and once harris was gone we HAD to get a STUD and a Starter and a Replacement in there ASAP.


We did. Therefore I am fine with the pick.

[TXBRONC]

Yes, we should have. Many of us had us taking an ORT in the 2nd/3rd round. Ryan Harris is not coming back and we have NO one behind him.

Sure zane can kick out to RT, but he is not the mauling road grader franklin is, and then who would play LG? That one guy from new england. He sucked balls worse- so much so I can not even remember his name. Our OL depth is lacking and once harris was gone we HAD to get a STUD and a Starter and a Replacement in there ASAP.


We did. Therefore I am fine with the pick.

Maybe some of Franklins mean streak will rub off on Beadles.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Check Brandon Mebanes size!
Everybody and their mother is on his nuts right now! LOL!
Mebane
Height: 6-1 Weight 311
Arm Length: 33 in
Paea
Height: 6-1 Weight 305
Arm Length: 32 7/8 in
Wow. Just wow.
:defense:

And we know Paea is stronger than Mebane. He could probably pick up 6 pounds at the lunch table.

[Elevation inc]

i dont like mebane at all actually just saying........

[Ravage!!!]

But 3 of them?


The first one makes sense.



Who do we have now?
big dick
that guy from detroit-alphozo trade-bro is in ne-
drafted rookie
drafted rookie
drafted rookie

Right?

I dont know, that is 5 TEs right there. I think that is a bit much. I do agree with you though of having a TE for timmy.

But i do have faith in big dick. I like what i saw from him last TC.

The newest fad is spacing out and moving TEs around.. placing them in space and creating mismatches. Just watch the game-film break-down of NE last season. Yes, 3 TEs used quite often and TWO of them were rookie TEs.

[rcsodak]

Yes, we should have. Many of us had us taking an ORT in the 2nd/3rd round. Ryan Harris is not coming back and we have NO one behind him.

Sure zane can kick out to RT, but he is not the mauling road grader franklin is, and then who would play LG? That one guy from new england. He sucked balls worse- so much so I can not even remember his name. Our OL depth is lacking and once harris was gone we HAD to get a STUD and a Starter and a Replacement in there ASAP.


We did. Therefore I am fine with the pick.
If they stick with last yrs rules. Doesn't harrison become RFA and most likely stay?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If they stick with last yrs rules. Doesn't harrison become RFA and most likely stay?

We've actually place a tender on him assuming he'd be an RFA. So, unless there's a new CBA and the rules change, it's unlikely Harris is going anywhere, anyway.

[hamrob]

Here's a thought or a few:

We could have taken Paea at #46 and probably gotten Franklin at #66 and Irving in the 4th round. Maybe not...but, I think we could of. Franklin was rated anywhere from 2-4th round, depending on who you listened to.

I'm hoping he turns out to be a player...but, he's the guy I'm keeping my eyes on the closest.

[hamrob]

I think Harris would be better suited on the interior anyway. Let him compete with Beadles and Franklin for LG and/or RT.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Here's a thought or a few:

We could have taken Paea at #46 and probably gotten Franklin at #66 and Irving in the 4th round. Maybe not...but, I think we could of. Franklin was rated anywhere from 2-4th round, depending on who you listened to.

I'm hoping he turns out to be a player...but, he's the guy I'm keeping my eyes on the closest.

Listen to EFX when they said Franklin was their #5 ranked OT...

I actually had Carpenter ranked ahead of Franklin and he went in the 1st round. I had both of them behind Austin but ahead of Paea.

Two months ago I had Gilbert in the 4th then moved him to 67, last week I moved him to 46 figuring that Carpenter & Franklin where both likely to be gone by 46 leaving us with Austin or Paea at 36 and Gilbert at 46.

When word came out on draft day that Cannon was diagnosed with cancer I knew then it was ORT at 46 or bust, it's a huge dropoff after Gilbert, who was taken at 63.

This team needs a road grader and Beadles/Harris aren't it. Fox needs a big OT for the run game to take the pressure off Orton/Tebow. I'm also hoping it means Fox knew all along he's got a great shot at Williams.

Sure we could have played the wait & see game on Irving and likely gotten the same thing as at 36... swing & a miss... We never knew about the bad red flags for Austin & I suspect it was Wilkerson we had targeted at 36. We missed & traded down. We likely would have missed on Irving too had we not taken him where we did...

[SpringsBroncoFan]

If they stick with last yrs rules. Doesn't harrison become RFA and most likely stay?

We need a b/u anyway! lol Maybe nobody will want him and he'll resign cheap :D

No loss, I'm quite happy to see Franklin pancake some people & open holes for Moreno & Williams... :cool:

[TXBRONC]

We've actually place a tender on him assuming he'd be an RFA. So, unless there's a new CBA and the rules change, it's unlikely Harris is going anywhere, anyway.

With the drafting of Franklin I'm not so sure Harris is staying. If fact wasn't he already handed the right tackle position?

[Ravage!!!]

I think it's funny that some of those griping and complaining the most about the draft are the very ones that have said that they want us to be/draft like the Patriots.

Yet, from 2007-2011, the Patriots have drafted a cornerback or safety six times in the first or second round

[TXBRONC]

I think it's funny that some of those griping and complaining the most about the draft are the very ones that have said that they want us to be/draft like the Patriots.

Yet, from 2007-2011, the Patriots have drafted a cornerback or safety six times in the first or second round

I would have liked for Denver to have taken a defensive tackle in this draft but they didn't and there is nothing I can do about. At the very least they have given a coherent reason as to why they did what they unlike the last couple of years.

[Ravage!!!]

I would have liked for Denver to have taken a defensive tackle in this draft but they didn't and there is nothing I can do about. At the very least they have given a coherent reason as to why they did what they unlike the last couple of years.

Yeah, I'm with you. I was expecting and wanting us to take a DT in the draft. I just don't think its the "death of our team" tht we didnt.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, I'm with you. I was expecting and wanting us to take a DT in the draft. I just don't think its the "death of our team" tht we didnt.

Agreed this isn't the death of this team. It is disappointing but I have much better feeling about what he's going to do with team than I ever did with McDaniels.

[hamrob]

Listen to EFX when they said Franklin was their #5 ranked OT...

I actually had Carpenter ranked ahead of Franklin and he went in the 1st round. I had both of them behind Austin but ahead of Paea.

Two months ago I had Gilbert in the 4th then moved him to 67, last week I moved him to 46 figuring that Carpenter & Franklin where both likely to be gone by 46 leaving us with Austin or Paea at 36 and Gilbert at 46.

When word came out on draft day that Cannon was diagnosed with cancer I knew then it was ORT at 46 or bust, it's a huge dropoff after Gilbert, who was taken at 63.

This team needs a road grader and Beadles/Harris aren't it. Fox needs a big OT for the run game to take the pressure off Orton/Tebow. I'm also hoping it means Fox knew all along he's got a great shot at Williams.

Sure we could have played the wait & see game on Irving and likely gotten the same thing as at 36... swing & a miss... We never knew about the bad red flags for Austin & I suspect it was Wilkerson we had targeted at 36. We missed & traded down. We likely would have missed on Irving too had we not taken him where we did...All good points. The thing that scares me about Franklin, is his ability in pass protection. He will be protecting Tebow's blind side.

[TXBRONC]

All good points. The thing that scares me about Franklin, is his ability in pass protection. He will be protecting Tebow's blind side.

He's better at run blocking by his own admission. But that doesn't mean he's a dud at pass blocking. Even if he is protecting Tebows blind side he generally will not be facing the opposing team's best pass rusher.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He's better at run blocking by his own admission. But that doesn't mean he's a dud at pass blocking. Even if he is protecting Tebows blind side he generally will not be facing the opposing team's best pass rusher.

He has the athleticism to be a better pass blocker. Maybe he just doesn't have enough practice at it since he only played OT one season in college?

Moving from OG to LT is quite a transition. Ryan Clady played RT one year, then LT for 2 years. He had a lot of reps blocking guys off the edge before he went pro.

[TXBRONC]

He has the athleticism to be a better pass blocker. Maybe he just doesn't have enough practice at it since he only played OT one season in college?

Moving from OG to LT is quite a transition. Ryan Clady played RT one year, then LT for 2 years. He had a lot of reps blocking guys off the edge before he went pro.

I'm not criticizing, that's what he said of himself. By no means does that mean he can't improve. Dave Magazu is a very good offensive line coach who has developed pro bowl offensive linemen so Franklin will have an excellent teacher.

[NorCalBronco7]

Not drafting a DT was not surprising at all to me.

Im sure its been said in this thread, but Fox has never drafted a DT in the first 3 rounds. From what I can see, Fox wants pure run stuffing DTs that are not asked to create pressure. These guys can be found everywhere.

Paea and Austin, from what Ive seen of their play, are not exceptional run stuffers like Fox will have at the DT postion so it was no surprise to see them not drafted by the Broncos.

[nevcraw]

Not drafting a DT was not surprising at all to me.

Im sure its been said in this thread, but Fox has never drafted a DT in the first 3 rounds. From what I can see, Fox wants pure run stuffing DTs that are not asked to create pressure. These guys can be found everywhere.


apparently everywhere but in the rocky mountains for a very long time..

not all that worried about the skipping the DT's in the draft, but I hope Fox is little more committed to finding a few good Dt's then last 2 coaches or your post may suggest..

[NorCalBronco7]

apparently everywhere but in the rocky mountains for a very long time..

not all that worried about the skipping the DT's in the draft, but I hope Fox is little more committed to finding a few good Dt's then last 2 coaches or your post may suggest..

Well I wouldnt hold you breathe for remotely expensive FA DTs. Its not like Fox to do such a thing.

Hopefully Fox is great at finding and coaching DTs cheaply, because if not the Broncos will not stop anybody on the ground.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Well I wouldnt hold you breathe for remotely expensive FA DTs. Its not like Fox to do such a thing.

Hopefully Fox is great at finding and coaching DTs cheaply, because if not the Broncos will not stop anybody on the ground.

It's not Fox's money.....Carolina was known to be stingy, if the Broncos are willing to spend money on DT's I doubt Fox would have any issue with it.

[NorCalBronco7]

It's not Fox's money.....Carolina was known to be stingy, if the Broncos are willing to spend money on DT's I doubt Fox would have any issue with it.

As far as I know, Fox was very involved in picking defensive players through the draft and FA until this past year.

Year after year, Foxs teams never paid/signed expensive DT, or even average paid DTs. Carolina paid Beason/Davis tons - even Peppers a million a game for a year. Big contracts were given out in Carolina, usually to LBs but never to DTs. This has to have something to do with Foxs defensive scheme.

From everthing Ive read, if Fox could spend money on anything, it would be on LBs. And if Fox only asked his 3/5 techs to stuff the run, then little money would be allocatted to that postion because those kind of players are much easier to find thoughout the NFL then run stuffing DT who can also collaspe the pocket. Not signing expensive DTs means Fox can have better LBs/secondary/Pass rushing ends that seem to be important to his defensive scheme (heavy zone/multiple coverage).

I think if Fox gets the ok to sign an expensive FA its absolutley not going to be a DT.

[HammeredOut]

Why did they pass on Fairley??

[NorCalBronco7]

Why did they pass on Fairley??

Read my last post.

[HammeredOut]

Read my last post.

Part of the philosophy i noticed in denver, is this team and organization never valued DT's in the top 10, as, they historically never selected any that high. This has always been rotational DT's because of the thin air and player conditioning. No offense to the players, but even the Hockey players have a major advantage because of the air.

[NorCalBronco7]

Part of the philosophy i noticed in denver, is this team and organization never valued DT's in the top 10, as, they historically never selected any that high. This has always been rotational DT's because of the thin air and player conditioning. No offense to the players, but even the Hockey players have a major advantage because of the air.

Aside from the brief (and homosexual) time of McDaniels, the Broncos have had heavy DT rotations. The thin air has something to to with it, Im sure, but I believe, just like Fox, its a scheme decision first.

[HammeredOut]

I think Dareus would have looked like Haynesworth. 2 good quarters of football, and he dissappears for a corndog break in the second half.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

All good points. The thing that scares me about Franklin, is his ability in pass protection. He will be protecting Tebow's blind side.

And Harris doesn't scare you? Harris scares the hell out of me...

At least with Franklin, if a guy gets too close to the QB then we can ram him down a DE's throat until he gets pancaked! That should slow the DE down a bit! :D

If it makes you feel any better Mayock said he'll have no problem at OT...

[TXBRONC]

Not drafting a DT was not surprising at all to me.

Im sure its been said in this thread, but Fox has never drafted a DT in the first 3 rounds. From what I can see, Fox wants pure run stuffing DTs that are not asked to create pressure. These guys can be found everywhere.

Paea and Austin, from what Ive seen of their play, are not exceptional run stuffers like Fox will have at the DT postion so it was no surprise to see them not drafted by the Broncos.

I can say that I have ever heard that the Panthers had never drafted a defensive tackle in the first three rounds while Fox was the head coach. I don't exactly how much say Fox had in the players they took in Carolina but what I have come to understand he didn't have final say on who was chosen fwiw.

From the end of the draft press conference Elway said that they thought long and hard about taking Dareus with 2nd overall pick. They also seriously considered moving back into the first round to take Fairley. There was also a kid in the second round that they wanted but he was gone before they had a chance to draft him.

[HammeredOut]

I can say that I have ever heard that the Panthers had never drafted a defensive tackle in the first three rounds while Fox was the head coach. I don't exactly how much say Fox had in the players they took in Carolina but what I have come to understand he didn't have final say on who was chosen fwiw.

From the end of the draft press conference Elway said that they thought long and hard about taking Dareus with 2nd overall pick. They also seriously considered moving back into the first round to take Fairley. There was also a kid in the second round that they wanted but he was gone before they had a chance to draft him.

I think Fox was looking at Phil Taylor. Cleveland jumped up into the 1st and snatched him up. He was the best run stopper in college.

[Fan in Exile]

Not drafting a DT was not surprising at all to me.

Im sure its been said in this thread, but Fox has never drafted a DT in the first 3 rounds. From what I can see, Fox wants pure run stuffing DTs that are not asked to create pressure. These guys can be found everywhere.

Paea and Austin, from what Ive seen of their play, are not exceptional run stuffers like Fox will have at the DT postion so it was no surprise to see them not drafted by the Broncos.

You mean except for Corey Irvin and Atiyyah Elisson? Of course he also had Kris Jenkins in Carolina who was drafted the year before he got there.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Not drafting a DT was not surprising at all to me.

Im sure its been said in this thread, but Fox has never drafted a DT in the first 3 rounds. From what I can see, Fox wants pure run stuffing DTs that are not asked to create pressure. These guys can be found everywhere.

Paea and Austin, from what Ive seen of their play, are not exceptional run stuffers like Fox will have at the DT postion so it was no surprise to see them not drafted by the Broncos.

Wrong. The Panthers drafted Corvey Irvin in the 3rd round in 2009 and Atiyyah Ellison in the 3rd round in 2005. The Panthers haven't drafted a lot of DT's during Fox's tenure, but they had Kris Jenkins and Brenston Buckner when he got there in 2002. Add to that he had Julius Peppers and Mike Rucker at DE and he had a pretty damn good DLine his first year at Carolina.

[BigDaddyBronco]

You mean except for Corey Irvin and Atiyyah Elisson? Of course he also had Kris Jenkins in Carolina who was drafted the year before he got there.

I guess I should read the other posts before I post. LOL.

[TXBRONC]

Wrong. The Panthers drafted Corvey Irvin in the 3rd round in 2009 and Atiyyah Ellison in the 3rd round in 2005. The Panthers haven't drafted a lot of DT's during Fox's tenure, but they had Kris Jenkins and Brenston Buckner when he got there in 2002. Add to that he had Julius Peppers and Mike Rucker at DE and he had a pretty damn good DLine his first year at Carolina.

Peppers was his draft pick. I know you weren't saying Peppers wasn't I just thought add that in. :behindsofa:

[BigDaddyBronco]

Peppers was his draft pick. I know you weren't saying Peppers wasn't I just thought add that in. :behindsofa:

Nah, I was mainly talking about Fox not drafting DT's. He had a pretty decent DLine when he got there and added Peppers. After that he just had to fix holes for the next few years.

Here in Denver, they start with a good DE in Doom and.............yea, not much else. Then they don't address it in the draft. FA and the hope that Ayers and Vickerson pan out seems to be the plan.

[Lonestar]

Nah, I was mainly talking about Fox not drafting DT's. He had a pretty decent DLine when he got there and added Peppers. After that he just had to fix holes for the next few years.

Here in Denver, they start with a good DE in Doom and.............yea, not much else. Then they don't address it in the draft. FA and the hope that Ayers and Vickerson pan out seems to be the plan.

Wish in one hand, crap in the other see which fills up first.

A great DT on the squad, is worth 9 in the wishing game.

[NorCalBronco7]

You mean except for Corey Irvin and Atiyyah Elisson? Of course he also had Kris Jenkins in Carolina who was drafted the year before he got there.

Your right.

[rcsodak]

Why did they pass on Fairley??he wasn't a #2 player from alot of teams' views. Attitude/poor interviews. Plus, he's not always thinking team, and leaves his assignment too quickly, thus leaving a hole on the line and LB's susceptible.

[rcsodak]

I think Fox was looking at Phil Taylor. Cleveland jumped up into the 1st and snatched him up. He was the best run stopper in college.
Ie. The biggest run stopper.

[Juriga72]

So instead of drafting during one of the deepest DT drafts in years..... We are going to sign a DT in free agency when and IF free angency ever happens......just like all the other teams want to do.


yikes