Help Understand What Is Right About This Draft

[TXBRONC]

Without taking a defensive tackle how Denver help itself in this draft?

[Agent of Orange]

If you look at each pick individually, are you OK with them? We all would have preferred to take a DT, but a lot of people like each player individually (aside from the larger picture of no DTs).

[BigDaddyBronco]

Well, if the picks pan out we can replace older players with younger players. The LB's will be greatly upgraded and the safeties as well. We got two TE's that can catch (beter than what we have had the last few years). We replaced a often injured Ryan Harris with a bigger RT.

All-in-all not a bad draft if the players pan out.

Will it help us out next year in actually being a better defense? We should have a better passs rush and a little more range at safety, but that's about it. Oh, and we might have a guy that is athletic enough to slow down Gates and slot recievers in Miller.

On offense, it should be about the same with possibly better options at TE in the passing game.

Long term, the DLine is still a mess, the biggest weakness on the team and until it is addressed to become at least average, this team will have a hard time making the playoffs.

[CoachChaz]

Rome wasnt built in a day

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't think it's a bad draft, I think the first 5 picks are players that can help contribute. I don't think much of anything from the 2 TE's and Mohammed, I think they are practice players at best.

All in all I think Denver still has some gaping holes along the dline, and I think the defense is really going to struggle this year.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

While I'll be hoping and cheering as I do every year for a superbowl run, I don't expect to to turn our team completely around in one draft. We got guys that can make us better in certain areas. I'm extremely shocked at not taking a single player on the dline. It's going to be hard to watch us get pounded up the middle all next year. With just free agency left, there's nothing we can do except assume the FO has a plan we don't know about. A lot of us did that with the McD regime and it backfired hard on us so it's hard to do again. We really don't have much of a choice at this point though...

[shank]

i don't think john fox should be pigeon-holed into drafting a DT due to the failures of previous coaching staffs... he's a defensive minded guy and i trust that he has a plan that will work, and doesn't need to reach on a guy that he doesn't like, or give up too much for a guy that he does, just to appease us know-it-all fans.

A nasty RT and two pass catching tight ends will do wonders for our young quarterback. our safety position was arguably as bad IMO as our DT situation, the only reason the DT situation seems worse is that it's been this bad for so long. An improved pass rush will help our whole defense, and DT can still be addressed in FA.

I like what we've done here.

[silkamilkamonico]

He better do something about the DT's.

Right now Denver has the worst DT's in the NFL. We have floated our most dynamic front 7 player from a one dimensional DE, to a dynamic OLB, to now a one dimensional DE. Our other starting DE has had 1 solid season at DE in the last 7(?) years.

And Denver wonders why they continue to have the worst defense in the NFL.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Drafts are not the only way to obtain players - trades, FAs, undrafted FAs

[WARHORSE]

Without taking a defensive tackle how Denver help itself in this draft?


Hmmmm.....we'll be here forever.:coffee:

[UnderArmour]

If we can get 2 of the following: Amobe Okoye, Anthony Adams, Tank Johnson, Cullen Jenkins, Brandon Mebane, Tommie Harris, Allen Branch, Kris Jenkins(if his knee heals) we can have a decent d-line to tide us over until next year.

[CoachChaz]

If we can get 2 of the following: Amobe Okoye, Anthony Adams, Tank Johnson, Cullen Jenkins, Brandon Mebane, Tommie Harris, Allen Branch, Kris Jenkins(if his knee heals) we can have a decent d-line to tide us over until next year.

Any of those two to "tide us over"? There are a few combinations of guys on that list and some that you didnt mention that would immediately for a top 10 interior line. It would do a lot more than tide us over

[Ziggy]

I'll take the Jenkins boys for the wins, Alex.

[TXBRONC]

The more I read on the players that we drafted the better I feel about it.

[BroncoJoe]

Anyone remember our D-Line from 97 & 98?

Can you say Alfred Williams, Neil Smith and Keith Traylor? (Yes we drafted Traylor but got him back via free agency).

Not to mention Rominowski and I'm sure a few others that we signed...

[CoachChaz]

I'll take the Jenkins boys for the wins, Alex.

Give me Mebane and Patterson and I'm giddy as shit

[UnderArmour]

Any of those two to "tide us over"? There are a few combinations of guys on that list and some that you didnt mention that would immediately for a top 10 interior line. It would do a lot more than tide us over

I was hoping that another team would switch to the 3-4 to free up some more defensive linemen that would fit into a 4-3. But, I'm pretty sure the Giants are going to cut someone with all of their depth and the Jets are also going to let Shaun Ellis walk in free agency. There should be plenty of free agents in this class and we can give lots of them starter money due to the amount of teams that went that direction in the draft.

[jhildebrand]

I like this draft A LOT.

Where is the reach? Where is the guy that we traded up to get at the expense of a later round/need? Where was the project? Where was the "shock the world/we are smarter than the rest of the league" pick?

The truth is we didn't have a: Clarrett, Toviessi, Moss, Tebow/Demaryius!

We got solid value at every pick, players that should be able to come in and contribute right away.

I like the two TE's as well! I think we could have another Scheffler or a Rosario type TE on our hands!

Finally, look at the age and number of team captains this team drafted. I am pretty stoked about this class.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the draft addressed a lot of which we knew we were weak.... LB, MLB, S, OL, TE. I thought MLB and Safety were at the top of the list as far as needs, and OL was a close second

[Ravage!!!]

I like this draft A LOT.

Where is the reach? Where is the guy that we traded up to get at the expense of a later round/need? Where was the project? Where was the "shock the world/we are smarter than the rest of the league" pick?

The truth is we didn't have a: Clarrett, Toviessi, Moss, Tebow/Demaryius!

We got solid value at every pick, players that should be able to come in and contribute right away.

I like the two TE's as well! I think we could have another Scheffler or a Rosario type TE on our hands!

Finally, look at the age and number of team captains this team drafted. I am pretty stoked about this class.

NE drafted two TE last year, and I believe they drafted another this year. Offenses took note as to how NE moved their young, versatile, fast TEs around and were able to create mis-matches.

[jhildebrand]

NE drafted two TE last year, and I believe they drafted another this year. Offenses took note as to how NE moved their young, versatile, fast TEs around and were able to create mis-matches.

Detroit has stocked up on TE's.

The fact is this team didn't even have a TE, IIRC. Graham was cut. So it was a major need as far as I was concerned.

Just look at the size of both TE's and their attributes. I can't help but think they will serve this team well.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Anyone remember our D-Line from 97 & 98?

Can you say Alfred Williams, Neil Smith and Keith Traylor? (Yes we drafted Traylor but got him back via free agency).

Not to mention Rominowski and I'm sure a few others that we signed...

Oh, you mean when we gave a damn about the D-line? When, after a decade of not having one we finally decided to piece one together for a Championship run? Didn't we DRAFT a pretty studly young DT in '97 who played on both the '97 and '98 teams?

Nobody is anti-free agent here, but everyone knows that your core players have to come from the draft and have to be developed.

We don't have a single drafted DT on our team (Marcus Thomas was our last attempt... 4 years ago and he's now a FA), not one. We don't have another position like that.

We continue to overpay for past-their-prime, washed up, old, has-been or never-was Defensive Tackles instead of just drafting a couple and developing them.

Funny, but if you look at all the playoff teams from last year I'll bet that they all drafted a D-lineman somewhere in the draft - sometimes two! There's a reason that some teams are always competitive and some aren't.

If you look back throughout the last decade you'll find that the time we stopped giving a damn about the D-line was the time we stopped making the playoffs. We've had "franchise" pro-bowl QBs, WRs with 100 catch seasons and who led the league in yards, 1000 yard rushers, the best CB in the NFL in his prime, shit even the NFL SACK LEADER... and we still couldn't make the playoffs. Why? Because our defense sucks. Why does our defense suck? Because our defensive line sucks. It all starts up front.

Until we fix the defensive line problem, we aren't going to be competitive.

[atwater27]

Oh, you mean when we gave a damn about the D-line? When, after a decade of not having one we finally decided to piece one together for a Championship run? Didn't we DRAFT a pretty studly young DT in '97 who played on both the '97 and '98 teams?

Nobody is anti-free agent here, but everyone knows that your core players have to come from the draft and have to be developed.

We don't have a single drafted DT on our team (Marcus Thomas was our last attempt... 4 years ago and he's now a FA), not one. We don't have another position like that.

We continue to overpay for past-their-prime, washed up, old, has-been or never-was Defensive Tackles instead of just drafting a couple and developing them.

Funny, but if you look at all the playoff teams from last year I'll bet that they all drafted a D-lineman somewhere in the draft - sometimes two! There's a reason that some teams are always competitive and some aren't.

If you look back throughout the last decade you'll find that the time we stopped giving a damn about the D-line was the time we stopped making the playoffs. We've had "franchise" pro-bowl QBs, WRs with 100 catch seasons and who led the league in yards, 1000 yard rushers, the best CB in the NFL in his prime, shit even the NFL SACK LEADER... and we still couldn't make the playoffs. Why? Because our defense sucks. Why does our defense suck? Because our defensive line sucks. It all starts up front.

Until we fix the defensive line problem, we aren't going to be competitive.

Word is borne!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

NE drafted two TE last year, and I believe they drafted another this year. Offenses took note as to how NE moved their young, versatile, fast TEs around and were able to create mis-matches.

Except that NEs TEs are just a wee bit different than the ones we just drafted. They spent a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder on two big-time guys who were very good in college. We picked up two guys that are project flyers and probably won't even see the field this year. Their guys don't have to come off the field on rushing downs and so they don't telegraph their playcalling. Ours will. It was like when we had Graham and Scheffler. If Graham was on the field, everyone knew we were running, if it was Scheff, it was most likely a pass play.

If you want a TE, draft a damned TE that can play TE. Don't draft some project H-back that can't block and is only useful on 3rd and long. Even with the guys we drafted, we can't release Quinn or Gronk because they can actually BLOCK.

[jhildebrand]

Oh, you mean when we gave a damn about the D-line? When, after a decade of not having one we finally decided to piece one together for a Championship run? Didn't we DRAFT a pretty studly young DT in '97 who played on both the '97 and '98 teams?

Nobody is anti-free agent here, but everyone knows that your core players have to come from the draft and have to be developed.

We don't have a single drafted DT on our team (Marcus Thomas was our last attempt... 4 years ago and he's now a FA), not one. We don't have another position like that.

We continue to overpay for past-their-prime, washed up, old, has-been or never-was Defensive Tackles instead of just drafting a couple and developing them.

Funny, but if you look at all the playoff teams from last year I'll bet that they all drafted a D-lineman somewhere in the draft - sometimes two! There's a reason that some teams are always competitive and some aren't.

If you look back throughout the last decade you'll find that the time we stopped giving a damn about the D-line was the time we stopped making the playoffs. We've had "franchise" pro-bowl QBs, WRs with 100 catch seasons and who led the league in yards, 1000 yard rushers, the best CB in the NFL in his prime, shit even the NFL SACK LEADER... and we still couldn't make the playoffs. Why? Because our defense sucks. Why does our defense suck? Because our defensive line sucks. It all starts up front.

Until we fix the defensive line problem, we aren't going to be competitive.

The problem with getting worked up right now, as I see it, is we have NO idea what John Fox is going to do here especially on D. I doubt he will simply duplicate to a T everything he did in Carolina.

Here is another reason why I am not worried about taking a DT right now. We will have Ayers at left end and Doom on the right. Then you have Von Miller and other fast LBers.

My guess is this team will rush from the edge consistently to funnel people through the middle right to our LB'ers. Teams might try to get to the outside but we just got a lot faster at LB and that will make it hard.

Finally, teams that have established lines can draft young DT's and plug them in immediately because those next to them can adjust and work with the rook as they go. My guess is they bring in a DT FA who is established and can step right in and function how the staff wants them to without growing pains.

Let's go through some camps before we worry too much.

[jhildebrand]

Except that NEs TEs are just a wee bit different than the ones we just drafted. They spent a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder on two big-time guys who were very good in college. We picked up two guys that are project flyers and probably won't even see the field this year. Their guys don't have to come off the field on rushing downs and so they don't telegraph their playcalling. Ours will. It was like when we had Graham and Scheffler. If Graham was on the field, everyone knew we were running, if it was Scheff, it was most likely a pass play.

If you want a TE, draft a damned TE that can play TE. Don't draft some project H-back that can't block and is only useful on 3rd and long. Even with the guys we drafted, we can't release Quinn or Gronk because they can actually BLOCK.

Fox took Dante Rosario in the 5th round a few years back. Remember him? He killed SD week 1 last season.

How is Thomas or Green different?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If we can get 2 of the following: Amobe Okoye, Anthony Adams, Tank Johnson, Cullen Jenkins, Brandon Mebane, Tommie Harris, Allen Branch, Kris Jenkins(if his knee heals) we can have a decent d-line to tide us over until next year.

Okoye is a bust, Johnson is a legal/locker room problem, Harris can't stay healthy and is no where near the guy he was 3 years ago, and Kris Jenkins will probably retire (and he should he's destroyed the same kneee 2 years in a row and missed the whole season).

That leaves Adams (average at best), Cullen Jenkins (who we'll compete with 10 other teams for), Brandon Mebane (who we'll compete with 10 other teams for and who will probably end up back in Seattle, anyway), and Allen Branch (who has yet to live up to anything and doesn't even start).

I think you guys are looking at this list with rose colored glasses. With the exception of C Jenkins and Mebane, the rest have red flags or just aren't very good.

Oh, unless the rules change with the new CBA, half of those guys won't be UFAs anyway meaning they'll be RFAs and we'll have to give up draft picks for them... when we could've just drafted some guys in the first place... anyone else thing that's retarded, or just me?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Fox took Dante Rosario in the 5th round a few years back. Remember him? He killed SD week 1 last season.

How is Thomas or Green different?

2 years ago. It was one game. The only thing he really did was make that huge TD catch on 4th down to win the game.

What did he do after that? Anything? Delhomme found the new kid (who SD refused to cover) and made him a star on TV for one game. After that game, he never looked his way again because people actually started covering him...

[jhildebrand]

2 years ago. It was one game. The only thing he really did was make that huge TD catch on 4th down to win the game.

What did he do after that? Anything? Delhomme found the new kid (who SD refused to cover) and made him a star on TV for one game. After that game, he never looked his way again because people actually started covering him...

He has played well. Is it people began to cover him or Carolina abandoned John Fox as a coach and went in a different direction leaving him as a lame duck for the last season and a half?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The problem with getting worked up right now, as I see it, is we have NO idea what John Fox is going to do here especially on D. I doubt he will simply duplicate to a T everything he did in Carolina.

Here is another reason why I am not worried about taking a DT right now. We will have Ayers at left end and Doom on the right. Then you have Von Miller and other fast LBers.

My guess is this team will rush from the edge consistently to funnel people through the middle right to our LB'ers. Teams might try to get to the outside but we just got a lot faster at LB and that will make it hard.

Finally, teams that have established lines can draft young DT's and plug them in immediately because those next to them can adjust and work with the rook as they go. My guess is they bring in a DT FA who is established and can step right in and function how the staff wants them to without growing pains.

Let's go through some camps before we worry too much.

So boss, just how many high-priced FAs are we going to pursue? I thought Fox wanted to run the ball? Right now, we have a fat guy coming off an achilles and two guys that are made of glass at the RB position which leads me to believe (since we didn't draft a RB) that we're going to target a high-priced FA. We also need DTs (at least 2 starting caliber ones) because we have only Vickerson on the roster under contract right now (oh I know there are 2 or 3 practice squad DTs and Fields is still lurking around somewhere on the roster).

So, that means a RB and at least 2 DTs to target in FA. Plus, we've got to sign our draft picks (make Von Miller the HIGHEST PAID LB IN HISTORY by a lot) and sign UDFAs for camp fodder. Sounds pretty expensive to me.

So, who are we gonna get? I'm dying to know... :confused:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

He has played well. Is it people began to cover him or Carolina abandoned John Fox as a coach and went in a different direction leaving him as a lame duck for the last season and a half?

So, how well has he played? Let's look, shall we?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=10598

If you'll notice, he's been in the league for 5 years, 4 of which were under Fox and he averages around 20 catches and a little over 200 yards per year. He has 5 career TDs in 5 years.

If you'll take note of the game you're referring to (it was week one of 2008, BTW) it was his only good game of the season (7 catches, 96 yds, one TD) the most catches he had in any other game was 2.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=10598&sYear=2008

The bottom line is, John Fox doesn't use the TE. He just doesn't. I used to live in South Carolina and have been to probably 10 Panthers games during Fox's tenure (including the Superbowl year) and he's never featured the TE in his offense. TE's are used even less than they are in McDaniels' offense.

[CoachChaz]

Im convinced. The Broncos are completely inept and will forever suck because they didnt turn a 4 win team into a Super Bowl contender in one draft. None of the players we drafted make sense, all of the FAs are washed up criminals and most will immediately refuse to play here anyway. Sign me up for a shot of that piss and vinegar concoction you guys are drinking because youve swayed me. This is the worst organization, the worst draft and the worst team in the NFL. Time to settle for a baseball game and NBA playoffs

:rollseyes:

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Im convinced. The Broncos are completely inept and will forever suck because they didnt turn a 4 win team into a Super Bowl contender in one draft. None of the players we drafted make sense, all of the FAs are washed up criminals and most will immediately refuse to play here anyway. Sign me up for a shot of that piss and vinegar concoction you guys are drinking because youve swayed me. This is the worst organization, the worst draft and the worst team in the NFL. Time to settle for a baseball game and NBA playoffs

:rollseyes:

Even with the sarcasm throughout, I had to point out that they may not have been the worst team in the NFL last year, but they were pretty ******* close to it. Second worst isn't anything to tip your hat to.

No one said none of the players made sense. At least, I never read that. Not drafting a DT did not make sense and I'm actually fairly happy with this draft.

FA just doesn't show any names out there that excite us. I think part of the problem is that there are really only a few DTs in the first place that actually do excite us. Hopefully whoever gets the job of stuffing the run on the interior decides to actually do something about it this year.

We are frustrated. We are tired of having a terrible D-line. We are not convinced that we should have nothing to worry about.

However, we will be better than next year on the basis that we really can't be much worse. I say let's get this lockout over with so we can get the young guys on our team better...

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Im convinced. The Broncos are completely inept and will forever suck because they didnt turn a 4 win team into a Super Bowl contender in one draft. None of the players we drafted make sense, all of the FAs are washed up criminals and most will immediately refuse to play here anyway. Sign me up for a shot of that piss and vinegar concoction you guys are drinking because youve swayed me. This is the worst organization, the worst draft and the worst team in the NFL. Time to settle for a baseball game and NBA playoffs

:rollseyes:

Thank you :drama: . Nobody is saying what you're implying. I really like a lot of the players we drafted, unfortunately we didn't address our biggest need. The same need we've had for a decade. So, we'll patch it up with bubble gum and duct tape and move on as usual. We, as an organization, still haven't learned that you win games in the trenches. That's all.

The question I and others like me who are discouraged is... when will it finally be time to fix the D-line so we can start winning again? We all know we don't have a prayer to win without it.

[horsepig]

Amen, brother.

[CoachChaz]

Here's the deal guys...NOTHING was going to be corrected 100% in one draft. So, the FO got what they could in areas of need this year. Maybe we get an FA or two to help out and next year, we fill in the rest of the blanks. The team has been torn to shreds over the last 3 years...no matter who or what we draft this year, it's not getting us to the playoffs immediately. What happens if next year we get 2 top DT's and good corners? We're also going to need WR's, because if you're not sold on Ayers or Doom and their weights at DE, then you cant be sold on Demaryius or Decker or Royal at WR. It's going to take time to get it all fixed. This draft was merely phase one

[jhildebrand]

So boss, just how many high-priced FAs are we going to pursue? I thought Fox wanted to run the ball? Right now, we have a fat guy coming off an achilles and two guys that are made of glass at the RB position which leads me to believe (since we didn't draft a RB) that we're going to target a high-priced FA. We also need DTs (at least 2 starting caliber ones) because we have only Vickerson on the roster under contract right now (oh I know there are 2 or 3 practice squad DTs and Fields is still lurking around somewhere on the roster).

So, that means a RB and at least 2 DTs to target in FA. Plus, we've got to sign our draft picks (make Von Miller the HIGHEST PAID LB IN HISTORY by a lot) and sign UDFAs for camp fodder. Sounds pretty expensive to me.

So, who are we gonna get? I'm dying to know... :confused:

I wish I could tell you but honestly I can't. But what I do know is there will be cuts, players will be traded (pending CBA), there are practice squads, etc...

RB on the free agent market aren't going to command huge blockbuster contracts. Marion Barber will be out there as will others. Shoot, the Patriots picks up Woodhead last year. I think that worked out well.

Would you rather the Broncos have traded the rest of their draft away to get Fairley?

[Montana Battlin Bear]

So, how well has he played? Let's look, shall we?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=10598

If you'll notice, he's been in the league for 5 years, 4 of which were under Fox and he averages around 20 catches and a little over 200 yards per year. He has 5 career TDs in 5 years.

If you'll take note of the game you're referring to (it was week one of 2008, BTW) it was his only good game of the season (7 catches, 96 yds, one TD) the most catches he had in any other game was 2.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=10598&sYear=2008

The bottom line is, John Fox doesn't use the TE. He just doesn't. I used to live in South Carolina and have been to probably 10 Panthers games during Fox's tenure (including the Superbowl year) and he's never featured the TE in his offense. TE's are used even less than they are in McDaniels' offense.

Fox has never used a tight end heavily.

But do you honestly believe that John Elway will allow our team to become a one dimensional offense? hell no! It has been stated that Mike McCoy will be calling the plays and developing the offensive playbook, not Fox. What I believe we will see Fox, Xanders, and Elway build to is a Great Offense with a very good defense.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Here's the deal guys...NOTHING was going to be corrected 100% in one draft. So, the FO got what they could in areas of need this year. Maybe we get an FA or two to help out and next year, we fill in the rest of the blanks. The team has been torn to shreds over the last 3 years...no matter who or what we draft this year, it's not getting us to the playoffs immediately. What happens if next year we get 2 top DT's and good corners? We're also going to need WR's, because if you're not sold on Ayers or Doom and their weights at DE, then you cant be sold on Demaryius or Decker or Royal at WR. It's going to take time to get it all fixed. This draft was merely phase one

I think you might be overreacting...just a thought. As horsepower said a few posts up, no one is saying what you are implying. You want us to speculate our future and trust in the FO. We've done that before and look how that turned out. Dareus was such an obvious choice at 2 it makes me a little sick (love Von Miller, filled a need, Dareus fills a much bigger one). Defense wins championships and a good defense has a good D-line. We wanted that DT not for an immediate turn around, but for someone to bulk up the middle of that line and develop into someone we can feel comfortable with in the next few years.

[atwater27]

Would you rather the Broncos have traded the rest of their draft away to get Fairley?

Come on man. He was there at 2 or we could have traded down 11 spots from where he ended up going. So no, we didn't have to trade our draft away to get him. We actually could have gained several picks.

[TXBRONC]

All I know is that I feel ok about this draft. No we didn't get a defensive tackle but it sounds like solid picks were taken everywhere so I'm not going get worked up. As I said earlier I hope that these picks help to eventually make us good team.

[jhildebrand]

Come on man. He was there at 2 or we could have traded down 11 spots from where he ended up going. So no, we didn't have to trade our draft away to get him. We actually could have gained several picks.

But Fox didn't like him at 2. Why should Fox pick a guy at 2 just because DT is a need when they have what many consider may be the best D player in the draft in Miller and that still fills a need? :confused:

I said it before: if Fox wasn't comfortable taking Fairley at 2 then I will take his word on it until otherwise. He seems to be a guy who not only knows how to draft on D i.e. Jenkins, Peppers, Beason, Gamble, etc... but knows how to get production out of the guys he gets. Until he shows he doesn't know what he is doing, I will trust that he does. I am giving him the same benefit of the doubt that I did with Shanahan and McDaniels.

Fairley wasn't without question. I know some would be screaming just as bad if this team took him at 2 or traded back all while passing on Miller. Not everyone can be completely happy. I just am personally to let go of the negativity that consumed this organization almost to the point of complete suffocation-thanks to McDaniels. Time to look at the glass half full.

[chazoe60]

Couple of thoughts.

1. This draft tells me that our new defensive brain trust has some seriously creative plans. 3-3-5 and different combinations of guys for different down and distances. Teams will not know where the rush is going to come from, but it will be coming. I think QBs are going to be scared to play us. Granted, RBs might be licking their chops but let's give the brain trust the benefit of the doubt.

2. Robert Ayers will be used in a ton of different ways. He'll be a DT some times, a DE others, and I think he'll be used to zone blitz a lot. He has a lot of versatility and will be a cog in our new look defense.

3. I honestly think Tim Tebow was a major consideration in how we drafted. We got a RT and two TEs. A young QB's best friend is a big sure handed TE. Obviously TE was a need regardless who the QB was but I still believe that the thought behind it was "We have to get Tebow a security blanket TE"

4. We should be set at Safety and LB for a very long time. I really love the guys we took at those two positions. Combined with the guys we already have I don't think we'll be lacking at those two spots for a very long time. I'm still a big believer in McBath.

Just some of my thoughts.

[dunk7]

Anyone else think the coaches and FO have adopted the "suck for Luck" slogan. Leave a glaring weakness that teams will exploit, we finish 2-14, get Luck and load up on DT's...we'd be freaking set!!!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Here's the deal guys...NOTHING was going to be corrected 100% in one draft. So, the FO got what they could in areas of need this year. Maybe we get an FA or two to help out and next year, we fill in the rest of the blanks.

Lather, rinse, repeat.. for the past 12 years. Doesn't it ever get old? When did it become a good excuse?

Yep, Shanny says we'll patch the D-line with the Browncos and we'll be all set...

Yep, McDaniels says we'll sign an over-the-hill NT from San Diego, a backup Raven DT who we intend to start at DE but he never has before, and a couple ex-Patriot backups and by God, we'll have us an awesome D-line...

Yep, Fox and Elway said that we targeted some guys, but we weren't going to reach while we watched them come off the board after our pick, and darn if every time we were gonna take one if he hadn't already gone to somebody else, shucks. Well, we'll just look at some guys in free agency to patch the holes and, well better luck next year...

See the trend? Ain't it awesome?

[TXBRONC]

Anyone else think the coaches and FO have adopted the "suck for Luck" slogan. Leave a glaring weakness that teams will exploit, we finish 2-14, get Luck and load up on DT's...we'd be freaking set!!!

I'm not so sure about that.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Couple of thoughts.

1. This draft tells me that our new defensive brain trust has some seriously creative plans. 3-3-5 and different combinations of guys for different down and distances. Teams will not know where the rush is going to come from, but it will be coming. I think QBs are going to be scared to play us. Granted, RBs might be licking their chops but let's give the brain trust the benefit of the doubt.

2. Robert Ayers will be used in a ton of different ways. He'll be a DT some times, a DE others, and I think he'll be used to zone blitz a lot. He has a lot of versatility and will be a cog in our new look defense.

3. I honestly think Tim Tebow was a major consideration in how we drafted. We got a RT and two TEs. A young QB's best friend is a big sure handed TE. Obviously TE was a need regardless who the QB was but I still believe that the thought behind it was "We have to get Tebow a security blanket TE"

4. We should be set at Safety and LB for a very long time. I really love the guys we took at those two positions. Combined with the guys we already have I don't think we'll be lacking at those two spots for a very long time. I'm still a big believer in McBath.

Just some of my thoughts.

Sounds great, I just hope you're right. If we lined up a 4-3 (or even a 3-4) defense with the players we currently have, we'd get eaten alive.

[silkamilkamonico]

Sounds great, I just hope you're right. If we lined up a 4-3 (or even a 3-4) defense with the players we currently have, we'd get eaten alive.

I think we'll find out how good of a schemer Fox is. I could easily argue that we have the worst position of DT in the NFL, and unless there are some major changes we are not going to be able to play offenses straight up. We are going to need a Mike Nolan type of season.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think we'll find out how good of a schemer Fox is. I could easily argue that we have the worst position of DT in the NFL, and unless there are some major changes we are not going to be able to play offenses straight up. We are going to need a Mike Nolan type of season.

That's exactly it. Nolan was one of the best schemers out there. As evidenced by our 6-0 start and Miami's top 10 defense last year with mediocre talent. The problem is without talent, that scheme, no matter how sound, will get exposed.

Look at Bellichick. One of the best defensive minded coaches in the league and the lack of talent in his pass rush cost him a playoff game and potential superbowl bid even his super scheme couldn't get enough pressure on Sanchez to hold of the Jets' late surge.

Scheme and coaching will only take you so far without talent and vice versa. You build talent through the DRAFT.

[sneakers]

http://www.allaboutbipolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/sky-is-falling.jpg

[chazoe60]

I think we'll find out how good of a schemer Fox is. I could easily argue that we have the worst position of DT in the NFL, and unless there are some major changes we are not going to be able to play offenses straight up. We are going to need a Mike Nolan type of season.

Our DT position is in bad shape no doubt, and people acting like drafting a second round DT would have fixed it is just silly(not saying you're doing that silk, just talking in general).

To me with the 2nd overall pick we had to pick a player that is going to be an elite player. Dareus, I don't think, fits that mold. He will be good but not great and I think the FO felt that way also. Miller on the other hand has the potential to be GREAT. He is the rare type of player who is worthy of the second pick in the draft.

The Broncos are not a team who is going to be picking in the top five constantly like the Bengals or Lions have been for years. So, we had to hit a home run with that pick and I think we did.

By the time our picks came around in the second the guys with 2nd round grades were guys with big ?s. Paea, had injury and size questions. Austin has a ton of question marks. I truly believe the DTs Foxy and Elway were really targeting were the 4th and 5 th round guys and I think they got picked just before we could grab them. That's my belief anyway.

I'm glad our FO didnt panic and reach or overpay for a guy or guys who didn't fit what they wanted to do just because of positional need.

We can debate all day about whether or not the FO's evaluations of those players was right or not but I'll trust them since they were the ones who did the scouting.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Our DT position is in bad shape no doubt, and people acting like drafting a second round DT would have fixed it is just silly(not saying you're doing that silk, just talking in general).

To me with the 2nd overall pick we had to pick a player that is going to be an elite player. Dareus, I don't think, fits that mold. He will be good but not great and I think the FO felt that way also. Miller on the other hand has the potential to be GREAT. He is the rare type of player who is worthy of the second pick in the draft.

The Broncos are not a team who is going to be picking in the top five constantly like the Bengals or Lions have been for years. So, we had to hit a home run with that pick and I think we did.

By the time our picks came around in the second the guys with 2nd round grades were guys with big ?s. Paea, had injury and size questions. Austin has a ton of question marks. I truly believe the DTs Foxy and Elway were really targeting were the 4th and 5 th round guys and I think they got picked just before we could grab them. That's my belief anyway.

I'm glad our FO didnt panic and reach or overpay for a guy or guys who didn't fit what they wanted to do just because of positional need.

We can debate all day about whether or not the FO's evaluations of those players was right or not but I'll trust them since they were the ones who did the scouting.


I must know... why is Miller so special? People keep saying it. Is it because he got a lot of sacks in college? THAT WAS HIS ONLY REAL JOB MOST OF THE TIME. He was allowed to tee off and rush the passer almost exclusively... just like Elvis Dumervil did in college.

Miller has a LONG way to go to become a complete player. He's not a great cover guy because he didn't drop into coverage very often. He's not overly good against the run because it wasn't his responsibility. People keep saying miller is the shiznit, but nobody can put their finger on why.

Other than sacks, did he lead his conference in tackles? No. His team even? No. INTs? No. Forced fumbles? No. Passes defensed? No. Soooo we're back to sacks. So he led his team in sacks and that's it... impressive. So he's a good pass rusher who led his team in sacks...

Now, we're going to change his position and the scheme he plays in and we're going to expect him to be the same guy he was in college? Hmmm, I wouldn't jump the gun too much. Can you name the last 4-3 SAM LB to make the probowl?

Von Miller in college sounds a lot like Elvis Dumervil. Why didn't we just move him to SAM OLB?

[TXBRONC]

Our DT position is in bad shape no doubt, and people acting like drafting a second round DT would have fixed it is just silly(not saying you're doing that silk, just talking in general).

To me with the 2nd overall pick we had to pick a player that is going to be an elite player. Dareus, I don't think, fits that mold. He will be good but not great and I think the FO felt that way also. Miller on the other hand has the potential to be GREAT. He is the rare type of player who is worthy of the second pick in the draft.

The Broncos are not a team who is going to be picking in the top five constantly like the Bengals or Lions have been for years. So, we had to hit a home run with that pick and I think we did.

By the time our picks came around in the second the guys with 2nd round grades were guys with big ?s. Paea, had injury and size questions. Austin has a ton of question marks. I truly believe the DTs Foxy and Elway were really targeting were the 4th and 5 th round guys and I think they got picked just before we could grab them. That's my belief anyway.

I'm glad our FO didnt panic and reach or overpay for a guy or guys who didn't fit what they wanted to do just because of positional need.

We can debate all day about whether or not the FO's evaluations of those players was right or not but I'll trust them since they were the ones who did the scouting.

I do think drafting a defensive tackle in the second would have been a good to do. Chazoe the front office was going to draft a defensive in the second but he was taken before we picked.

[BroncoJoe]

How any teams stay in their "base" defense for even 50% of the time?

How about ZERO.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

How any teams stay in their "base" defense for even 50% of the time?

How about ZERO.

True. Just on those unimportant "rushing downs". Who cares about those? Not us! We're #31! :werd:

[BigDaddyBronco]

Our DT position is in bad shape no doubt, and people acting like drafting a second round DT would have fixed it is just silly(not saying you're doing that silk, just talking in general).

To me with the 2nd overall pick we had to pick a player that is going to be an elite player. Dareus, I don't think, fits that mold. He will be good but not great and I think the FO felt that way also. Miller on the other hand has the potential to be GREAT. He is the rare type of player who is worthy of the second pick in the draft.

The Broncos are not a team who is going to be picking in the top five constantly like the Bengals or Lions have been for years. So, we had to hit a home run with that pick and I think we did.

By the time our picks came around in the second the guys with 2nd round grades were guys with big ?s. Paea, had injury and size questions. Austin has a ton of question marks. I truly believe the DTs Foxy and Elway were really targeting were the 4th and 5 th round guys and I think they got picked just before we could grab them. That's my belief anyway.

I'm glad our FO didnt panic and reach or overpay for a guy or guys who didn't fit what they wanted to do just because of positional need.

We can debate all day about whether or not the FO's evaluations of those players was right or not but I'll trust them since they were the ones who did the scouting.

A 2nd round DT wouldn't have fixed our DLine issues. You are correct. That's not it for me. By not taking Dareus or a DT in the 2nd round, it showed me that we are not buying in with the philosophy of the Giants, Steelers, Bears, Eagles, etc. that keep a steady flow of DLine picks coming into their team. They build through the draft and typically have good Dline's, and wow, it turns out that they have good defenses as well. I don't think a strategy of FA's (either high priced or cast offs from other teams) works in the NFL these days and it will take 2-3 years to start building a line through the draft when they decide they finally want to do it.

I really thought this year was the year, so I'm disappointed. Doesn't mean I don't think they will be ok this year, they will just have to rely on their offense more.

Either way, let's get a labor deal done and GO BRONCOS!!!!!

[BroncoJoe]

True. Just on those unimportant "rushing downs". Who cares about those? Not us! We're #31! :werd:

I believe it is just as much scheme as it is player. Yes, we sucked last year because of both, but IMO more scheme than players.

[Lonestar]

Oh, you mean when we gave a damn about the D-line? When, after a decade of not having one we finally decided to piece one together for a Championship run? Didn't we DRAFT a pretty studly young DT in '97 who played on both the '97 and '98 teams?

Nobody is anti-free agent here, but everyone knows that your core players have to come from the draft and have to be developed.

We don't have a single drafted DT on our team (Marcus Thomas was our last attempt... 4 years ago and he's now a FA), not one. We don't have another position like that.

We continue to overpay for past-their-prime, washed up, old, has-been or never-was Defensive Tackles instead of just drafting a couple and developing them.

Funny, but if you look at all the playoff teams from last year I'll bet that they all drafted a D-lineman somewhere in the draft - sometimes two! There's a reason that some teams are always competitive and some aren't.

If you look back throughout the last decade you'll find that the time we stopped giving a damn about the D-line was the time we stopped making the playoffs. We've had "franchise" pro-bowl QBs, WRs with 100 catch seasons and who led the league in yards, 1000 yard rushers, the best CB in the NFL in his prime, shit even the NFL SACK LEADER... and we still couldn't make the playoffs. Why? Because our defense sucks. Why does our defense suck? Because our defensive line sucks. It all starts up front.

Until we fix the defensive line problem, we aren't going to be competitive.
great post :salute:

Here's the deal guys...NOTHING was going to be corrected 100% in one draft. So, the FO got what they could in areas of need this year. Maybe we get an FA or two to help out and next year, we fill in the rest of the blanks. The team has been torn to shreds over the last 3 years...no matter who or what we draft this year, it's not getting us to the playoffs immediately. What happens if next year we get 2 top DT's and good corners? We're also going to need WR's, because if you're not sold on Ayers or Doom and their weights at DE, then you cant be sold on Demaryius or Decker or Royal at WR. It's going to take time to get it all fixed. This draft was merely phase one

your correct could not fix all the problems that have been brewing for 4-5 years.

but since

Elway said we would rebuild via the draft.
we let at least 4 quality DT slip through our hands to fill spots that were not as critical.
DTs take a couple of years to develop, so any drafted next year just puts us that much farther behind the learning curve.


picking up just a couple more broken down dl types does nothing to fix the problem long term.

[BroncoJoe]

picking up just a couple more broken down dl types does nothing to fix the problem long term.

Yeah. It didn't help at all during our Superbowl championship seasons.

[Lonestar]

Yeah. It didn't help at all during our Superbowl championship seasons.

We also had a strong core of HOF type players, there to help out.

We took many teams by surprise with TD and the ZBS since no one else was playing it no one needed to know how to stop it.

We got a lot of gimmie games Because no one had an answer for John, Sharpe and TD.


What won all of those games getting 2-3 TD lead before the other team figured out what hit them.

YET many of the games were won by 3 points late in the game with Elam hitting them. SO PLEASE DO NOT SING THE PRAISES of retreads.

BTW just which retread since has made our day?

[BroncoJoe]

SO PLEASE DO NOT SING THE PRAISES of retreads.

BTW just which retread since has made our day?

You're right. Let's not do anything in free agency.

:coffee:

[BeefStew25]

Did some of you guys just want to see "Jock Wackoff, DT, Denver Broncos" pop up on your screen to make you happy?

Let's not draft a DT for the sake of drafting DT.

[jhildebrand]

So, how well has he played? Let's look, shall we?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=10598

If you'll notice, he's been in the league for 5 years, 4 of which were under Fox and he averages around 20 catches and a little over 200 yards per year. He has 5 career TDs in 5 years.

If you'll take note of the game you're referring to (it was week one of 2008, BTW) it was his only good game of the season (7 catches, 96 yds, one TD) the most catches he had in any other game was 2.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=10598&sYear=2008

The bottom line is, John Fox doesn't use the TE. He just doesn't. I used to live in South Carolina and have been to probably 10 Panthers games during Fox's tenure (including the Superbowl year) and he's never featured the TE in his offense. TE's are used even less than they are in McDaniels' offense.

Catches and touchdowns and other stats don't tell the whole story. You're a smart poster HP56 and I know that. But we both know Carolina was a good/great rushing team. Deangelo and Stewart had a great season two and three seasons ago (before Richardson pulled the chair out from under Fox).

I suppose Rosario had absolutely nothing to do with that? :confused:

Either way, this team needed some kind of real TE thanks to McDaniels! I think we probably did enough this year to address it. Double TE sets will be all the rage and it will only serve to help Tebow.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

Did some of you guys just want to see "Jock Wackoff, DT, Denver Broncos" pop up on your screen to make you happy?

Let's not draft a DT for the sake of drafting DT.

If we took one in the first two rounds, that would not have been the case...

[BeefStew25]

If we took one in the first two rounds, that would not have been the case...

IF my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

IF my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

Informative. Thanks for that

[BeefStew25]

Informative. Thanks for that

We will be ok buddy. Adults are now in charge.

[ForgettingBrandonMarshall]

We will be ok buddy. Adults are now in charge.

Never said we wouldn't be and apparently they aren't in charge of your account.

[claymore]

We will be ok buddy. Adults are now in charge.

Its nice to finally have a plan.

[topscribe]

Miller has a LONG way to go to become a complete player. He's not a great cover guy because he didn't drop into coverage very often. He's not overly good against the run because it wasn't his responsibility. People keep saying miller is the shiznit, but nobody can put their finger on why.

Have you watched any game film on Miller? I just got through watching a bunch
of it. What I saw was that Miller was good in coverage and against the run.

But don't take my word for it: The Broncos brain trust did the same, and
Elway said you don't even have to know Miller's number to know where he is
on the field. Elway also said a player of Miller's caliber comes around once
"every ten years."

That's what's so special about Miller . . .

-----

[Sinthor]

Well, I was worried about not taking a DT for a while until I did some research and realized what FEX was doing. If you look at Fox's history in Carolina, he doesn't do much with D-line. Who besides Peppers did you really know from that team on the d-line? Fox prefers speedy, hard-hitting LB's and secondary. That's what he went for in this draft. Also, this tells us that they believe getting Doom back and moving Ayers to the d-line will be good things. They also obviously believe that Vickerson and Crowder are pretty good or at least good enough. I didn't think Vickerson was bad at all last year and maybe moving him to his "normal" position in a 4-3 will be a good thing.

Bottom line, if your d-line is at least average and you have good speedy LB's and secondary, you can do pretty darn well. Remember those years we didn't have Pryce or anyone "big" on the d-line but had the fastest LB corp in the league with Wilson, Gold and Williams? Defense wasn't too shabby, was it? So, if at least 3-4 of these players pan out for the Broncos the defense would at least be vastly improved over last year. I'm willing to give them a shot at it.

It was good at least to see the braintrust obviously executing a PLAN and also FOLLOWING the plan rather than flitting about with this pick or that. Right or wrong, they have a plan and are sticking with it. One of the big things this team needs is consistency. Consistent plan being followed and consistency in the scheme. Let's see what they can do with a plan that is followed and hopefully some stability in coaching. Is very difficult when you have a new defensive coordinator every year.... I think the defense will be MUCH better this year than last, just wait and see. The pickup of some developmental TE's should help and the fact that these are PASS CATCHING TE's tells me Fox will use them more than he has in the past. A new "monster" RT will help the running game to the right and is also obviously a piece in the puzzle to help protect Tebow's blind side a lot better. Harris was good (IMO) but with his injuries, etc. it's a risk. If they put Tebow in they need good protection on that side.

Now, I just hope all this BS with the labor situation gets resolved quickly so we can get all these people into camp!

[Softskull]

SO PLEASE DO NOT SING THE PRAISES of retreads.

BTW just which retread since has made our day?

Zimmerman, Schlereth, McCaffery, Tony Jones, Howard Griffith, Neil Smith and Romanowski were great retreads during the SB years.

We've had plenty of good "retreads". Dawkin and Lynch were fine temporary upgrades. Casey was a very good center. Those are just the probowlers we've picked up. Our entire secondary last year were originally drafted by another team.

[atwater27]

Did some of you guys just want to see "Jock Wackoff, DT, Denver Broncos" pop up on your screen to make you happy?

Let's not draft a DT for the sake of drafting DT.

No, we are talking about Marcell Dareus, who many, many experts considered a top 2 pick, Nick Fairley, who the same considered a top 5 pick, and Austen and Paea, which ranged from late 1st to early 3rd depending on the take. You can keep jackoff, cause you know damn well he ain't who we're talking about. Now back to the topic, sans intellectual dishonesty.

[Ravage!!!]

Zimmerman, Schlereth, McCaffery, Tony Jones, Howard Griffith, Neil Smith and Romanowski were great retreads during the SB years.

We've had plenty of good "retreads". Dawkin and Lynch were fine temporary upgrades. Casey was a very good center. Those are just the probowlers we've picked up. Our entire secondary last year were originally drafted by another team.

Some guy by the name of Champ Bailey.

[T.K.O.]

from what ive read,fox & elway only had 3 DT's targeted and all 3 were gone by pick 18 ,so they would have had to pass on miller (they're top rated guy) or traded up heavily and sold the farm to get one ....so they stood pat.
not as exciting as the crazy trade all over days of the past but maybe what was best for the team.
:salute:

[jhildebrand]

Who besides Peppers did you really know from that team on the d-line?

I am not nit picking your post because I agree with it but Kris Jenkins was/is pretty damn good save for two devistating knee injuries in week 1 the past two seasons.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I am not nit picking your post because I agree with it but Kris Jenkins was/is pretty damn good save for two devistating knee injuries in week 1 the past two seasons.

Carolina's D-line for a few years was top 5, easily. Peppers, Jenkins (who was easily the equivalent of Shawn Rodgers in his prime and actually played the penetrating 3 tech in that defense), Brentson Buckner (who played the 0 or 1 tech), and Mike Rucker (RDE who was a pretty damned good pass rusher in his own right) were the reason that the Panthers got to the Superbowl. Peppers actually played the LDE (Power end) on that line because he was so much bigger and stronger than Rucker and was just as good vs the run as the pass.

Those guys could cause so much havoc without blitzing it was insane. The only reason it didn't last longer is because Buckner was old and retired, Rucker was older and got injured and Jenkins left on account of money (the Panthers wouldn't pay him so he went to the Jets) leaving only Peppers and not much else.

Anyone who doesn't think that was a talented D-line wasn't paying attention. This was also when Carolina had the WORST secondary in the league with Mike Minter as their only non-scrub player (and even he wasn't very good). If you can name a starting CB off that team (remember this is pre Ken Lucas, Chris Gamble era) without looking, I'd be impressed.

[BeefStew25]

Never said we wouldn't be and apparently they aren't in charge of your account.

Hey! Keep it civil!


No, we are talking about Marcell Dareus, who many, many experts considered a top 2 pick, Nick Fairley, who the same considered a top 5 pick, and Austen and Paea, which ranged from late 1st to early 3rd depending on the take. You can keep jackoff, cause you know damn well he ain't who we're talking about. Now back to the topic, sans intellectual dishonesty.

lash out and bomb a federal building.

[topscribe]

No, we are talking about Marcell Dareus, who many, many experts considered a top 2 pick, Nick Fairley, who the same considered a top 5 pick, and Austen and Paea, which ranged from late 1st to early 3rd depending on the take. You can keep jackoff, cause you know damn well he ain't who we're talking about. Now back to the topic, sans intellectual dishonesty.

I was one who wanted Dareus in the worst way. When I was awaiting the
Broncos' selection, I kept thinking, "C'mon, Dareus, Dareus, Dareus." My
immediate reaction at the announcement was not outright dismay or outrage,
but I was disappointed for a little bit.

But, wow, I like Miller. I am now so glad they picked him.

Where I am still wondering whether I should be disappointed is later when
Austin and Paea were still available. But then, the Broncos filled a potential
hole, because of aging personnel, with the best safety in the draft.

I'm not sure, however, if I would not have brought Harris back in and gone
after a DT at this point, instead of taking Franklin. Maybe Franklin is an
upgrade over Harris in the running game, but Harris wasn't "bad." I mean, he
had a stellar season in 2008, and he has to be getting healthy again. So they
don't have a gaping hole there.

They do have a gaping hole at DT -- the only place on the team, IMO, where
they can now use the term "gaping." Frankly, I was thunderstruck when they
announced Franklin. And my head is still swimming a bit -- or is that just my
natural state?

-----

[atwater27]

lash out and bomb a federal building.

Nah... I'm content at owning your ass.

[BeefStew25]

Nah... I'm content at owning your ass.

That is TOTALLY fine with me!

[atwater27]

That is TOTALLY fine with me!

Muddy helmets for all.

[WARHORSE]

I was one who wanted Dareus in the worst way. When I was awaiting the
Broncos' selection, I kept thinking, "C'mon, Dareus, Dareus, Dareus." My
immediate reaction at the announcement was not outright dismay or outrage,
but I was disappointed for a little bit.

But, wow, I like Miller. I am now so glad they picked him.

Where I am still wondering whether I should be disappointed is later when
Austin and Paea were still available. But then, the Broncos filled a potential
hole, because of aging personnel, with the best safety in the draft.

I'm not sure, however, if I would not have brought Harris back in and gone
after a DT at this point, instead of taking Franklin. Maybe Franklin is an
upgrade over Harris in the running game, but Harris wasn't "bad." I mean, he
had a stellar season in 2008, and he has to be getting healthy again. So they
don't have a gaping hole there.

They do have a gaping hole at DT -- the only place on the team, IMO, where
they can now use the term "gaping." Frankly, I was thunderstruck when they
announced Franklin. And my head is still swimming a bit -- or is that just my
natural state?

-----


I believe our DTs will have one gap responsibilities in this defense from what I gather, so we'll be alright with the guys we get. Maybe not dominant, but as the LBers gel, we'll get it.

In the future, when we DO get one or two of those killer DTs that can do it all, we will be on the road to possible dominance.


Orange.....CRUSH.

[BeefStew25]

http://www.buffalosportsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Von-Miller.jpg

[BeefStew25]

http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/files/2010/12/nate-irving2.jpg

[TXBRONC]

I was one who wanted Dareus in the worst way. When I was awaiting the
Broncos' selection, I kept thinking, "C'mon, Dareus, Dareus, Dareus." My
immediate reaction at the announcement was not outright dismay or outrage,
but I was disappointed for a little bit.

But, wow, I like Miller. I am now so glad they picked him.

Where I am still wondering whether I should be disappointed is later when
Austin and Paea were still available. But then, the Broncos filled a potential
hole, because of aging personnel, with the best safety in the draft.

I'm not sure, however, if I would not have brought Harris back in and gone
after a DT at this point, instead of taking Franklin. Maybe Franklin is an
upgrade over Harris in the running game, but Harris wasn't "bad." I mean, he
had a stellar season in 2008, and he has to be getting healthy again. So they
don't have a gaping hole there.

They do have a gaping hole at DT -- the only place on the team, IMO, where
they can now use the term "gaping." Frankly, I was thunderstruck when they
announced Franklin. And my head is still swimming a bit -- or is that just my
natural state?

-----

The Franklin pick I understood why it was made the second it happened. I was still a little disappointed because I really should have taken a defensive tackle. That said I think the Franklin was a good pick. From what I understand we got an offensive tackle with one very nasty disposition and whose strength is run blocking.

[rationalfan]

From the cold hard facts guy at cnnsi.com:

Denver
What I liked: The Broncos gave up more points than any team in the NFL last year and capitalized on that in way the Cowboys should have: Aggressively grabbing defenders. It started with No. 2 pick, Von Miller, a pass-rush specialist OLB. It was a perfect needs-based selection: Denver was No. 29 last year on our Defensive Hog Index and dead-last league wide at pressuring the quarterback, forcing a Negative Pass Play on just 6.3 percent of dropbacks -- half the rate of the best pass-rush team in football last year, the Super Bowl champ packers (12.2%). Second-round pick Rahim Moore was the top-rated safety on most boards, and the Broncos landed him with the No. 45 pick. He could start right away.
What I didn't like: Liked it all.
John Elway's first draft has the potential to be a great one that addressed all the team's most glaring needs. Grade: A


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/05/01/draft.grades/index.html#ixzz1L9j5i8w0

[Denver27og]

i have 100% complete faith in elway and fox..

Fox was always good a coach and was able to have good teams despite having less to work with..

and Elways is just a true Champion..

Ill bet the Dline issues will be no biggie when the season starts..

cant wait!! glad the MCdik reign is over

[jhildebrand]

Carolina's D-line for a few years was top 5, easily. Peppers, Jenkins (who was easily the equivalent of Shawn Rodgers in his prime and actually played the penetrating 3 tech in that defense), Brentson Buckner (who played the 0 or 1 tech), and Mike Rucker (RDE who was a pretty damned good pass rusher in his own right) were the reason that the Panthers got to the Superbowl. Peppers actually played the LDE (Power end) on that line because he was so much bigger and stronger than Rucker and was just as good vs the run as the pass.

Those guys could cause so much havoc without blitzing it was insane. The only reason it didn't last longer is because Buckner was old and retired, Rucker was older and got injured and Jenkins left on account of money (the Panthers wouldn't pay him so he went to the Jets) leaving only Peppers and not much else.

Anyone who doesn't think that was a talented D-line wasn't paying attention. This was also when Carolina had the WORST secondary in the league with Mike Minter as their only non-scrub player (and even he wasn't very good). If you can name a starting CB off that team (remember this is pre Ken Lucas, Chris Gamble era) without looking, I'd be impressed.

They were talking about this on the 1043 THE FAN here yesterday. They speculated (sounded as if it came from direct inside information) that Fox told the FO what he could and couldn't live with regarding the current team. It was mentioned several times that he might be ok with the line, at least for this year, as is but not the LB and DB's. Maybe that is because of what you pointed out.

Just like Shanahan who had a decent line but not stud DB's during our SB years so he valued a guy like Champ at the expense of Portis.

[TXBRONC]

They were talking about this on the 1043 THE FAN here yesterday. They speculated (sounded as if it came from direct inside information) that Fox told the FO what he could and couldn't live with regarding the current team. It was mentioned several times that he might be ok with the line, at least for this year, as is but not the LB and DB's. Maybe that is because of what you pointed out.

Just like Shanahan who had a decent line but not stud DB's during our SB years so he valued a guy like Champ at the expense of Portis.

I fully expected that something they did but I wouldn't have thought that Fox say he could make it work with current defensive line. At least I did start thinking that until this past weekend. When we started passing up one defensive tackle after another the thought crossed my mind maybe Fox feels that the current corp of defensive line will work for now.

[topscribe]

That is TOTALLY fine with me!

:lol: Never try to "out-comeback" Beef . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

From the cold hard facts guy at cnnsi.com:

Denver
What I liked: The Broncos gave up more points than any team in the NFL last year and capitalized on that in way the Cowboys should have: Aggressively grabbing defenders. It started with No. 2 pick, Von Miller, a pass-rush specialist OLB. It was a perfect needs-based selection: Denver was No. 29 last year on our Defensive Hog Index and dead-last league wide at pressuring the quarterback, forcing a Negative Pass Play on just 6.3 percent of dropbacks -- half the rate of the best pass-rush team in football last year, the Super Bowl champ packers (12.2%). Second-round pick Rahim Moore was the top-rated safety on most boards, and the Broncos landed him with the No. 45 pick. He could start right away.
What I didn't like: Liked it all.
John Elway's first draft has the potential to be a great one that addressed all the team's most glaring needs. Grade: A


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/05/01/draft.grades/index.html#ixzz1L9j5i8w0


Obviously did not notice 31st in run defense..

[Lonestar]

Fox told the FO what he could and couldn't live with regarding the current team. It was mentioned several times that he might be ok with the line, at least for this year, as is but not the LB and DB's.
.



I suspect that that is a load of bovine excrement, but if it is true then I think we need a new coach. After all aren't the great coaches the ones that asses theta players and figure out how to make a scheme to coach them up.

:laugh:

[rcsodak]

Im convinced. The Broncos are completely inept and will forever suck because they didnt turn a 4 win team into a Super Bowl contender in one draft. None of the players we drafted make sense, all of the FAs are washed up criminals and most will immediately refuse to play here anyway. Sign me up for a shot of that piss and vinegar concoction you guys are drinking because youve swayed me. This is the worst organization, the worst draft and the worst team in the NFL. Time to settle for a baseball game and NBA playoffs

:rolleyes:
Amen, brutha.

Denver screwed the pooch by not taking P2 AND Fairley.

:coffee:

[rcsodak]

Fox has never used a tight end heavily.

But do you honestly believe that John Elway will allow our team to become a one dimensional offense? hell no! It has been stated that Mike McCoy will be calling the plays and developing the offensive playbook, not Fox. What I believe we will see Fox, Xanders, and Elway build to is a Great Offense with a very good defense.

And, elway made it pretty clear earlier this year, he wasn't going to allow certain aspects (I took it as TE) to be ignored on the field.

[TXBRONC]

Amen, brutha.

Denver screwed the pooch by not taking P2 AND Fairley.

:coffee:

I'm pretty sure Chaz was being sarcastic.

[rcsodak]

Come on man. He was there at 2 or we could have traded down 11 spots from where he ended up going. So no, we didn't have to trade our draft away to get him. We actually could have gained several picks.
NOBODY wanted to trade for #2.

They already said it'd cost BOTH 2's and their 3rd to move up to get Fairley.

[rcsodak]

I believe it is just as much scheme as it is player. Yes, we sucked last year because of both, but IMO more scheme than players.

Players beat scheme everytime. I've not heard one football guy say different.
They might lose some battles, but not the wars.

[rcsodak]

No, we are talking about Marcell Dareus, who many, many experts considered a top 2 pick, Nick Fairley, who the same considered a top 5 pick, and Austen and Paea, which ranged from late 1st to early 3rd depending on the take. You can keep jackoff, cause you know damn well he ain't who we're talking about. Now back to the topic, sans intellectual dishonesty.
Who, praytell, was calling for fairley at #2? Lmao!
Maybe back in January!

They said they weren't reaching. They stuck to that for the most part. They went by their board....that tells me fairley wasn't at 2.

[rcsodak]

I'm pretty sure Chaz was being sarcastic.
Gee...ya think. ;)

[TXBRONC]

Gee...ya think. ;)

Your comment was unnecessary.

[SOCALORADO.]

Give me Mebane and Patterson and I'm giddy as shit

Right. Me too! And then you woke up from your fantasy.
Mebane aint goin anywhere unless DEN offers up the bank.
SEA will simply match any offer, and Mebane will give the
hometown discount.
DEN will have to offer up at least 15-20 million more.
Overpaying for defensive talent. Great buisness plan.
Theres a reason that D-line players rarely ever go anywhere
in FA.
They are the most coveted players in the NFL.

[CoachChaz]

Right. Me too! And then you woke up from your fantasy.
Mebane aint goin anywhere unless DEN offers up the bank.
SEA will simply match any offer, and Mebane will give the
hometown discount.
DEN will have to offer up at least 15-20 million more.
Overpaying for defensive talent. Great buisness plan.
Theres a reason that D-line players rarely ever go anywhere
in FA.
They are the most coveted players in the NFL.

My apologies. Based on the lack of activity in the NFL facilities, I wasnt aware that the new CBA or any agreement was laid in stone and agreed upon, therefore outlining the parameters that we need to take into consideration when discussing free agent opportunities. If you know something, please share it with us.

[jhildebrand]

I suspect that that is a load of bovine excrement, but if it is true then I think we need a new coach.

Seriously? :confused: Why? :confused:

We don't know how much Fox did or did not have input on the final picks not to mention he hasn't coached a single down as a Broncos HC!



After all aren't the great coaches the ones that asses theta players and figure out how to make a scheme to coach them up.

:laugh:

If you can see it so clearly, then how come you couldn't recognize the same with Joshy? :confused: Afterall, that was Joshy's problem-that and his inclination to cheat and draft glass WR/RB's in the first round.

Again, Fox hasn't coached a single down. However, just like McDaniels and Shanahan before him, I CHOOSE to give him the benefit of the doubt until he demonstrates I shouldn't. The guy built a bad expansion Carolina team into a SB contender. I choose to have hope and optimism about this new regime despite the massive number of deficiencies left behind by the previous group.

[rationalfan]

Obviously did not notice 31st in run defense..

or perhaps, he wasn't being myopic and only focusing on the one stat of rushing defense. as he points out, the broncos D had many problems. and while run defense was one of them, the lack of quarterback pressure is, perhaps, a greater one.

it's funny. four years ago broncos nation was clamoring for a pass rush. then dumerville leads the league in sacks and the roar dies down. thing is, without doom, the team's a terrible pass rush D. with doom two years ago, the team's an average pass rush team - at best.

yes, the broncos need to stop the run. but they couldn't stop the pass either. in a league that caters to the pass play (contact rules for QBs and WRs) you could argue that getting pressure on the QB is much more vital than stopping the run. look at the last few super bowls, dominated by passing teams or teams with great QBs. stopping them is more paramount than stopping the run.

however, it's easier to not look at the whole picture, easier to have knee-jerk reactions to the void at DT and presume the team's front office doesn't know what it's doing.

i'm not suggesting the broncos organization shouldn't be criticized. it should. but so often it seems like the opinions on this board are born of that, opinion. they're not based on fact, stats or anecdotes. they're beliefs that somehow become confused as fact.

i'm cool admitting i don't know much. i just like the broncos.

[Ravage!!!]

or perhaps, he wasn't being myopic and only focusing on the one stat of rushing defense. as he points out, the broncos D had many problems. and while run defense was one of them, the lack of quarterback pressure is, perhaps, a greater one.

it's funny. four years ago broncos nation was clamoring for a pass rush. then dumerville leads the league in sacks and the roar dies down. thing is, without doom, the team's a terrible pass rush D. with doom two years ago, the team's an average pass rush team - at best.

yes, the broncos need to stop the run. but they couldn't stop the pass either. in a league that caters to the pass play (contact rules for QBs and WRs) you could argue that getting pressure on the QB is much more vital than stopping the run. look at the last few super bowls, dominated by passing teams or teams with great QBs. stopping them is more paramount than stopping the run.

however, it's easier to not look at the whole picture, easier to have knee-jerk reactions to the void at DT and presume the team's front office doesn't know what it's doing.

i'm not suggesting the broncos organization shouldn't be criticized. it should. but so often it seems like the opinions on this board are born of that, opinion. they're not based on fact, stats or anecdotes. they're beliefs that somehow become confused as fact.

i'm cool admitting i don't know much. i just like the broncos.

Great post... :salute:

[SOCALORADO.]

My apologies. Based on the lack of activity in the NFL facilities, I wasnt aware that the new CBA or any agreement was laid in stone and agreed upon, therefore outlining the parameters that we need to take into consideration when discussing free agent opportunities. If you know something, please share it with us.

Barry twit'd me and said so himself! He loves the rain! :D

[TXBRONC]

Seriously? :confused: Why? :confused:

We don't know how much Fox did or did not have input on the final picks not to mention he hasn't coached a single down as a Broncos HC!



If you can see it so clearly, then how come you couldn't recognize the same with Joshy? :confused: Afterall, that was Joshy's problem-that and his inclination to cheat and draft glass WR/RB's in the first round.

Again, Fox hasn't coached a single down. However, just like McDaniels and Shanahan before him, I CHOOSE to give him the benefit of the doubt until he demonstrates I shouldn't. The guy built a bad expansion Carolina team into a SB contender. I choose to have hope and optimism about this new regime despite the massive number of deficiencies left behind by the previous group.

As I've said several times, I really wanted Denver to draft a defensive tackle. For the past month or so I said that I would really like Denver to draft Dareus. Even though we passed on Dareus I was ok with the Miller pick in part because of some things Chaz that made a lot of sense. I also became comfortable with idea that we could still get some quality defensive tackles later on and when didn't it initially left me scratching my head as to why EFX didn't take one. Then it dawned on me maybe Fox believes the guys he has will work at least for now.

Another is that just before the draft Elway and Fox both emphasised how important it was to get younger and faster at linebacker and secondary. We certainly did that in this draft. Do we have all the pieces of the puzzle? Nope but it looks like it could be a good start.

While we didn't draft a defensive tackle and that's still a little disappointing I wont take it out on the guys we drafted like some are inclined to do. I gave McDaniels the benefit of the doubt I going do the same for the regime as well. I'm much more at ease with EFX and their decisions than I was with petulant childish actions of one Josh McDaniels.

[TXBRONC]

or perhaps, he wasn't being myopic and only focusing on the one stat of rushing defense. as he points out, the broncos D had many problems. and while run defense was one of them, the lack of quarterback pressure is, perhaps, a greater one.

it's funny. four years ago broncos nation was clamoring for a pass rush. then dumerville leads the league in sacks and the roar dies down. thing is, without doom, the team's a terrible pass rush D. with doom two years ago, the team's an average pass rush team - at best.

yes, the broncos need to stop the run. but they couldn't stop the pass either. in a league that caters to the pass play (contact rules for QBs and WRs) you could argue that getting pressure on the QB is much more vital than stopping the run. look at the last few super bowls, dominated by passing teams or teams with great QBs. stopping them is more paramount than stopping the run.

however, it's easier to not look at the whole picture, easier to have knee-jerk reactions to the void at DT and presume the team's front office doesn't know what it's doing.

i'm not suggesting the broncos organization shouldn't be criticized. it should. but so often it seems like the opinions on this board are born of that, opinion. they're not based on fact, stats or anecdotes. they're beliefs that somehow become confused as fact.

i'm cool admitting i don't know much. i just like the broncos.

They didn't completely ignore the run defense. We did draft a highly rated mike linebacker in Irving. I'll give Fox this he KNOWS linebackers.

[jhildebrand]

Sedrick Ellis went to a MUCH better defense in the Saints and he had growing pains!

Glen Dorsey went to the Chiefs and they have continued to provide high draft picks next to him on the line and until midway of last season many began to question him working out.

Mario Williams took time to develop. That is the nature of the D line. They take time. The Suh and Ngata's are just exceptionally rare and all the draft "experts" agreed there wasnt one of those guys in this draft.

I am totally excited to see this new foundation and beginning. I just now hope Fox is smart enough to realize that in today's NFL these guys need to play and play now. Not playing them immediately might be about the only thing that could have me question him at this point.

[CoachChaz]

Sedrick Ellis went to a MUCH better defense in the Saints and he had growing pains!

Glen Dorsey went to the Chiefs and they have continued to provide high draft picks next to him on the line and until midway of last season many began to question him working out.

Mario Williams took time to develop. That is the nature of the D line. They take time. The Suh and Ngata's are just exceptionally rare and all the draft "experts" agreed there wasnt one of those guys in this draft.

I am totally excited to see this new foundation and beginning. I just now hope Fox is smart enough to realize that in today's NFL these guys need to play and play now. Not playing them immediately might be about the only thing that could have me question him at this point.

Agreed...keep in mind that Ngata wasnt exactly a badass early on either.

[jhildebrand]

Agreed...keep in mind that Ngata wasnt exactly a badass early on either.

Agreed. I think the consensus was that he was can't miss.

For the first time in over a year, I am very very very excited about football :D


Despite the stupid lockout :mad:

[SOCALORADO.]

If it takes time to develop these DTs, then all the more reason to draft them now rather than later. Right?

[GEM]

Well, let's see....

#1 rated LBer, Check.
#1 rated Free Safety, Check.
#1 rated Strong Safety, Check.
Highly rated ORT to replace Harris (I don't like it, think we could hang on to Harris, but if he's on his way out, they dealt with it instead of letting it become a down on the team), plus the guys is a mean sob.
TE's, these surprised me, but they also gave me some hope that the TE position won't just go away in this offense.

Overall.... EVERY pick was a position of need, while a good portion were highly touted for the position. Could we have filled more positions....yea....but you only have so many picks.

Like Coach said.....Rome wasn't built in a day. But this is a pretty damn good start.

[GEM]

Agreed. I think the consensus was that he was can't miss.

For the first time in over a year, I am very very very excited about football :D


Despite the stupid lockout :mad:

Hey hild....in your sig, did the offensive player on the other end of that take down get up afterwards?

[SOCALORADO.]

Well, let's see....

#1 rated LBer, Check.
#1 rated Free Safety, Check.
#1 rated Strong Safety, Check.
Highly rated ORT to replace Harris (I don't like it, think we could hang on to Harris, but if he's on his way out, they dealt with it instead of letting it become a down on the team), plus the guys is a mean sob.
TE's, these surprised me, but they also gave me some hope that the TE position won't just go away in this offense.

Overall.... EVERY pick was a position of need, while a good portion were highly touted for the position. Could we have filled more positions....yea....but you only have so many picks.

Like Coach said.....Rome wasn't built in a day. But this is a pretty damn good start.

No ones saying that the picks themselves were not good picks, although i dont like the Moore pick for a # of reasons, but its the fact that the DTs at those spots were just as highly ranked and there is a GRAND CANYON SIZED HOLE in our defense right up the middle which accounted for the 32nd ranked defense last year.
And Aaron Williams was a higher ranked FS than Moore. Ras I Dowling was also ranked higher on some "experts" boards as a FS.
No biggie, but hopefully Moore pans out. I like the picks cause this team sucks so bad, its hard not to.
But the glaring hole at DT is like starring at the sun bad.

[GEM]

No ones saying that the picks themselves were not good picks, although i dont like the Moore pick for a # of reasons, but its the fact that the DTs at those spots were just as highly ranked and there is a GRAND CANYON SIZED HOLE in our defense right up the middle which accounted for the 32nd ranked defense last year.
And Aaron Williams was a higher ranked FS than Moore. Ras I Dowling was also ranked higher on some "experts" boards as a FS.
No biggie, but hopefully Moore pans out. I like the picks cause this team sucks so bad, its hard not to.
But the glaring hole at DT is like starring at the sun bad.

And the holes at LBer would have been the same had we not filled those holes. Either way, you have glaring holes. :shrugs:

[TXBRONC]

Well, let's see....

#1 rated LBer, Check.
#1 rated Free Safety, Check.
#1 rated Strong Safety, Check.
Highly rated ORT to replace Harris (I don't like it, think we could hang on to Harris, but if he's on his way out, they dealt with it instead of letting it become a down on the team), plus the guys is a mean sob.
TE's, these surprised me, but they also gave me some hope that the TE position won't just go away in this offense.

Overall.... EVERY pick was a position of need, while a good portion were highly touted for the position. Could we have filled more positions....yea....but you only have so many picks.

Like Coach said.....Rome wasn't built in a day. But this is a pretty damn good start.

I was hoping to keep Harris but by the time draft rolled around it was pretty clear he wasn't coming back so I was ok with picking a right tackle. Kuper has mean streak and Franklin to the mix and maybe we can improve on short yardage and goal line situations.

[GEM]

I was hoping to keep Harris but by the time draft rolled around it was pretty clear he wasn't coming back so I was ok with picking a right tackle. Kuper has mean streak and Franklin to the mix and maybe we can improve on short yardage and goal line situations.

I think the other part of that is protecting Tebow's blind side. :shrugs: I think what we have here is another sign that Tebow is going to be looked at seriously during the competition.

[BeefStew25]

I don't watch the offensive line, so can someone explain to me what was going on with Ryan Harris? The DP alluded to the fact Harris was over Den mainly because of the way McD treated him.

[SOCALORADO.]

And the holes at LBer would have been the same had we not filled those holes. Either way, you have glaring holes. :shrugs:

Gem, DEN is much more set at LB compared to DT.
Miller, Williams and Mays would have been fine.

DEN is 32nd in the NFL in defense (run defense to be specific) for a reason.
Did you know that this draft was the deepest draft in a decade at 4-3 DT and DE!?!? And DEN took a 3-4 OLB they are going to try to convert to a hybrid system, and NO DTs. I have no prob with the Miller pick.
There are some serious issues though still to be resolved on this team, and they are not on offense.
You wont be shrugging come week 6.

[topscribe]

I think the other part of that is protecting Tebow's blind side. :shrugs: I think what we have here is another sign that Tebow is going to be looked at seriously during the competition.

Elway very promptly put the kabosh on such a certainty. He quickly corrected
Vic and Gary when he said, "right or left hand, whoever is going to be the QB."
That happened just this morning . . .

-----

[GEM]

I don't watch the offensive line, so can someone explain to me what was going on with Ryan Harris? The DP alluded to the fact Harris was over Den mainly because of the way McD treated him.

Ryan Harris has a show on The Ticket here in Denver. I haven't heard anything close that he is malcontent with Denver. Everything I have heard is the other way around. Denver isn't happy with the considerable time he has spent away from the game injured and perhaps his performance while he did play.

I am more worried about Beadles than I am about Harris. :shrugs:

[BeefStew25]

Did McD try to bring back Harris too quick? Did Ramadan affect him?

[SOCALORADO.]

Ryan Harris has a show on The Ticket here in Denver. I haven't heard anything close that he is malcontent with Denver. Everything I have heard is the other way around. Denver isn't happy with the considerable time he has spent away from the game injured and perhaps his performance while he did play.

I am more worried about Beadles than I am about Harris. :shrugs:

Harris is more of a Shanny, cut block, lightweight O-linemen.
Franklin in a monster road grater. Plug and play.
Harris will be promplty traded, for a player or pick when the lock out ends.
( if it ever ends!) IMHO.

[GEM]

Gem, DEN is much more set at LB compared to DT.
Miller, Williams and Mays would have been fine.

DEN is 32nd in the NFL in defense (run defense to be specific) for a reason.
Did you know that this draft was the deepest draft in a decade at 4-3 DT and DE!?!? And DEN took a 3-4 OLB they are going to try to convert to a hybrid system, and NO DTs. I have no prob with the Miller pick.
There are some serious issues though still to be resolved on this team, and they are not on offense.
You wont be shrugging come week 6.

We aren't set ANYWHERE on the Defense. Mays? He played a couple good games before getting injured. Williams...eh, without talent around him at LBer he is pretty ordinary. Remember him when he had Wilson....extraordinary.

I have faith that DT will be figured out. The FO is fully aware of the needs at DT, they've said it in every interview.

You don't know what I'll be doing in week 6....I could be telling you, I told you so. :D

[topscribe]

Did McD try to bring back Harris too quick? Did Ramadan affect him?

I don't know, but I hope they don't jettison Harris just because they drafted
Franklin, the unproved draftee. That wouldn't solve anything, IMO . . .

-----

[GEM]

Elway very promptly put the kabosh on such a certainty. He quickly corrected
Vic and Gary when he said, "right or left hand, whoever is going to be the QB."
That happened just this morning . . .

-----

I put it out there as a maybe. Neither of us know for sure what is real and what is smoke and mirrors. It should be interesting....if they ever get this stupid lockout shit figured out.

[jhildebrand]

Hey hild....in your sig, did the offensive player on the other end of that take down get up afterwards?

They all did :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8t_CCmASDU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNi18qXS3k

http://college-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/25896504 <--- this one is where the gif is from. The text is quite fun to read too. People might not realize that was 1st and goal for WF.

If people didn't have an idea of physical and nasty being part of this draft....well now you do :D

Here is a pick 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=linxBFZQ8Oc&NR=1

[topscribe]

I put it out there as a maybe. Neither of us know for sure what is real and what is smoke and mirrors. It should be interesting....if they ever get this stupid lockout shit figured out.

All I want is a real competition. An honest competition. I want who is really,
honestly the best guy in there.

And I'm with you on the lockout. While millionaires and billionaires quibble and
argue over dollars, they are depriving the very people who gave them all that
money: us fans! :mad:

-----

[GEM]

They all did :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8t_CCmASDU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNi18qXS3k

http://college-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/25896504 <--- this one is where the gif is from. The text is quite fun to read too. People might not realize that was 1st and goal for WF.

If people didn't have an idea of physical and nasty being part of this draft....well now you do :D

Here is a pick 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=linxBFZQ8Oc&NR=1

The way he lands on the head/neck just looks absolutely BRUTAL!!!

[SOCALORADO.]

We aren't set ANYWHERE on the Defense. Mays? He played a couple good games before getting injured. Williams...eh, without talent around him at LBer he is pretty ordinary. Remember him when he had Wilson....extraordinary.

I have faith that DT will be figured out. The FO is fully aware of the needs at DT, they've said it in every interview.

You don't know what I'll be doing in week 6....I could be telling you, I told you so. :D

Oh i know what you will be doin! Northman will be in town to buy drinks for all!

http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x4093603/young_women_in_a_bar_with_one_drunk_friend_passed_ mon030028.jpg

[jhildebrand]

I don't think Harris being moved is a definite. He did elude at one point last year to being rushed back from injury. Let's not forget he had back issues when drafted.

I think the organization probably feels like it can't count on him staying healthy. Also this team sucked on short yards and GTG/RZ and Franklin adds some nasty.

[TXBRONC]

I don't watch the offensive line, so can someone explain to me what was going on with Ryan Harris? The DP alluded to the fact Harris was over Den mainly because of the way McD treated him.


Ryan Harris has a show on The Ticket here in Denver. I haven't heard anything close that he is malcontent with Denver. Everything I have heard is the other way around. Denver isn't happy with the considerable time he has spent away from the game injured and perhaps his performance while he did play.

I am more worried about Beadles than I am about Harris. :shrugs:

After McDaniels was gone Paige did an article going through the shit that happened behind closed doors. From what I remember McDaniels was being combative with Harris on the field Harris came back way to soon and McDaniels bitched at his some more because he struggled. It was reported as you mentioned GEM that the front office was concerned about Harris' injury history but I think they were open to bringing him back but the well had already been poisoned by McDaniels so he's ready to move on.

We know that's not out of character for McDaniels because he was combative with Hillis to the point Hillis had actually walked out of Dove Valley with the intent of never coming back. Fortunately a couple of his teammates talked him out of it before he got into his car.

[CoachChaz]

They all did :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8t_CCmASDU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNi18qXS3k

http://college-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/25896504 <--- this one is where the gif is from. The text is quite fun to read too. People might not realize that was 1st and goal for WF.

If people didn't have an idea of physical and nasty being part of this draft....well now you do :D

Here is a pick 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=linxBFZQ8Oc&NR=1

If anyone can find the game film against GT, WF or UNC, those are three game where Irving was an absolute monster. That was the one benefit of living in Raleigh this past season...getting to watch him every week.

[jhildebrand]

After McDaniels was gone Paige did an article going through the shit that happened behind closed doors. From what I remember McDaniels was being combative with Harris on the field Harris came back way to soon and McDaniels bitched at his some more because he struggled. It was reported as you mentioned GEM that the front office was concerned about Harris' injury history but I think they were open to bringing him back but the well had already been poisoned by McDaniels so he's ready to move on.

We know that's not out of character for McDaniels because he was combative with Hillis to the point Hillis had actually walked out of Dove Valley with the intent of never coming back. Fortunately a couple of his teammates talked him out of it before he got into his car.

This McDaniels character had interpersonal and communication issues? :confused:

J/K

For a guy who was here for what is considered a blink of an eye in NFL time, he sure had A LOT OF CONFLICTS.

[G_Money]

Gem, DEN is much more set at LB compared to DT.
Miller, Williams and Mays would have been fine.

DEN is 32nd in the NFL in defense (run defense to be specific) for a reason.
Did you know that this draft was the deepest draft in a decade at 4-3 DT and DE!?!? And DEN took a 3-4 OLB they are going to try to convert to a hybrid system, and NO DTs. I have no prob with the Miller pick.
There are some serious issues though still to be resolved on this team, and they are not on offense.
You wont be shrugging come week 6.

I have to wait for FA (whenever it comes) before getting mad at the Broncos. I would have taken Dareus at #2, without question. But we didn't, we added outside pressure instead of inside dominance. We spent most of the draft adding guys who can run fast, tackle well, hit hard, and are leaders. I can't fault that even if in a vacuum it leaves a HUGE hole unaddressed.

Signing Brandon Mebane would do wonders for that. Mebane and Cofield added to this team would make me feel so much better about the D.

If we don't add anybody because they just wouldn't sign here, then we're gonna have problems. I don't like not adding DTs because getting dominance out of a first or second year DT isn't the easiest thing to accomplish. Most DTs take 2-3 years to get their feet under em, so I wanted the right guys in here now rather than trying to train 2012 draftpicks to be ready by 2015.

But I'll wait - there are free agents who could make this draft look like a fantastic idea if we can get them to sign on the dotted line.

Maybe John will let them hold a super bowl ring or drink a beer with him if they agree to a 5 year deal, and we'll be able to patch the one remaining gaping wound in our defense (at least that's apparent right now).

I'm trying to be patient. :lol:

~G

[BeefStew25]

Chaz, how is Irving's form compared to before his car wreck? I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

[G_Money]

If anyone can find the game film against GT, WF or UNC, those are three game where Irving was an absolute monster. That was the one benefit of living in Raleigh this past season...getting to watch him every week.

Definitely.

I watched the WF game and that was where I really started looking at him as the best MLB in the draft. When McShay says we drafted Irving too high, I just :confused:.

~G

[CoachChaz]

Definitely.

I watched the WF game and that was where I really started looking at him as the best MLB in the draft. When McShay says we drafted Irving too high, I just :confused:.

~G

I think McShay means we could have had him later. Not necessarily sure I agree with that. I had him as the highest ILB, but didnt speak about him too much because I thought Denver would look elsewhere early and he wouldnt be there late. At the time, we also didnt have a 4th or 5th round pick.

The WF game is crazy. I think that's where he set the NCAA record for TFL in a game, but the GT game is just as impressive. Not sure I've ever watched a game where I heard one players name called more than that one.

[topscribe]

After McDaniels was gone Paige did an article going through the shit that happened behind closed doors. From what I remember McDaniels was being combative with Harris on the field Harris came back way to soon and McDaniels bitched at his some more because he struggled. It was reported as you mentioned GEM that the front office was concerned about Harris' injury history but I think they were open to bringing him back but the well had already been poisoned by McDaniels so he's ready to move on.

We know that's not out of character for McDaniels because he was combative with Hillis to the point Hillis had actually walked out of Dove Valley with the intent of never coming back. Fortunately a couple of his teammates talked him out of it before he got into his car.

If McD never comes back, it'll be too soon . . .

-----

[slim]

I heard someone on the radio say that Franklin had a 5th round grade.

Coach or G...any truth to that?

[TXBRONC]

If McD never comes back, it'll be too soon . . .

-----

Hope to shout.

[topscribe]

Definitely.

I watched the WF game and that was where I really started looking at him as the best MLB in the draft. When McShay says we drafted Irving too high, I just :confused:.

~G

I believe Irving is one of those players who three years from now they will be
saying he would then be taken in the first round.

Did that make any sense? :confused:

-----

[CoachChaz]

Chaz, how is Irving's form compared to before his car wreck? I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

I never know if your questions are seious or not, but I'll answer anyway.

His form isnt much different. He played out of his mind as a sophomore as well, but missed a few games due to injury, otherwise his name would have been more known. Missed all of 09 due to almost dying in a car accident. This year, he started off solid and as his confidence came back, so did his skill. As the year went on, he was flying around more and more.

Might need to add a few pounds and get a little stronger to be a true MLB, but at the moment, he can play either inside or outside and is probably the best option we have to play in the middle.

[BroncoNut]

I heard someone on the radio say that Franklin had a 5th round grade.

Coach or G...any truth to that?

seems like I heard something along that line, someone seemed to have graded us at a C with a couple of the picks, him included.

[topscribe]

I never know if your questions are seious or not, but I'll answer anyway.

His form isnt much different. He played out of his mind as a sophomore as well, but missed a few games due to injury, otherwise his name would have been more known. Missed all of 09 due to almost dying in a car accident. This year, he started off solid and as his confidence came back, so did his skill. As the year went on, he was flying around more and more.

Might need to add a few pounds and get a little stronger to be a true MLB, but at the moment, he can play either inside or outside and is probably the best option we have to play in the middle.

IIRC, in his presser, Irving said he now weighs 245, that he wants to play at 242.
That is up considerably from his 237 as a senior . . .

-----

[BroncoNut]

I never know if your questions are seious or not, but I'll answer anyway.

His form isnt much different. He played out of his mind as a sophomore as well, but missed a few games due to injury, otherwise his name would have been more known. Missed all of 09 due to almost dying in a car accident. This year, he started off solid and as his confidence came back, so did his skill. As the year went on, he was flying around more and more.

Might need to add a few pounds and get a little stronger to be a true MLB, but at the moment, he can play either inside or outside and is probably the best option we have to play in the middle.

sometimes Beef takes things a little too far. You should meet him in person. as full of shit as a xmas goose.

[SOCALORADO.]

I never know if your questions are seious or not, but I'll answer anyway.

His form isnt much different. He played out of his mind as a sophomore as well, but missed a few games due to injury, otherwise his name would have been more known. Missed all of 09 due to almost dying in a car accident. This year, he started off solid and as his confidence came back, so did his skill. As the year went on, he was flying around more and more.

Might need to add a few pounds and get a little stronger to be a true MLB, but at the moment, he can play either inside or outside and is probably the best option we have to play in the middle.

I think Irving, Carter, Miller, J.Thomas and Franklin will all start. and sooner than later.

[Ravage!!!]

After McDaniels was gone Paige did an article going through the shit that happened behind closed doors. From what I remember McDaniels was being combative with Harris on the field Harris came back way to soon and McDaniels bitched at his some more because he struggled. It was reported as you mentioned GEM that the front office was concerned about Harris' injury history but I think they were open to bringing him back but the well had already been poisoned by McDaniels so he's ready to move on.

We know that's not out of character for McDaniels because he was combative with Hillis to the point Hillis had actually walked out of Dove Valley with the intent of never coming back. Fortunately a couple of his teammates talked him out of it before he got into his car.

Its amazing just how many players/coaches that McDaniels couldn't get along with in SUCH a short time as an HC. Its amazing.

[CoachChaz]

I believe Irving is one of those players who three years from now they will be
saying he would then be taken in the first round.

Did that make any sense? :confused:

-----

Stephen Tulloch, London Fletcher, Barrett Ruud, Bradie James, Curtis Lofton...


...add any other guy with size not indicative of the proto-typical ILB

[TXBRONC]

I believe Irving is one of those players who three years from now they will be
saying he would then be taken in the first round.

Did that make any sense? :confused:

-----

It makes sense to me and that scares the hell out of me. :shocked:

What you're saying that you think three years from now Irving will like he should have been taken in the 1st round rather than the 3rd. Right?

[TXBRONC]

Its amazing just how many players/coaches that McDaniels couldn't get along with in SUCH a short time as an HC. Its amazing.

Which is probably one of the reasons that he didn't get to coach out the string before Bowlen shit canned him.

[topscribe]

It makes sense to me and that scares the hell out of me. :shocked:

What you're saying that you think three years from now Irving will like he should have been taken in the 1st round rather than the 3rd. Right?

At this point, I look upon Irving as the steal of the draft. He indeed was
regarded as a potential first-rounder before his auto accident. I believe he
will show us we got a de facto first-rounder in the 3rd round.

Folks, our friends at Dove Valley rummaged through the rough and found a gem . . .

-----

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I heard someone on the radio say that Franklin had a 5th round grade.

Coach or G...any truth to that?

If I am understanding the following, it appears he was ranked 60th overall - 8th for his position.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1116609

[BeefStew25]

I never know if your questions are seious or not, but I'll answer anyway.

His form isnt much different. He played out of his mind as a sophomore as well, but missed a few games due to injury, otherwise his name would have been more known. Missed all of 09 due to almost dying in a car accident. This year, he started off solid and as his confidence came back, so did his skill. As the year went on, he was flying around more and more.

Might need to add a few pounds and get a little stronger to be a true MLB, but at the moment, he can play either inside or outside and is probably the best option we have to play in the middle.

That was serious. Thank you sir. All of us here appreciate your knowledge. I just tell my friends what you say on prospects and players.

[slim]

If I am understanding the following, it appears he was ranked 60th overall - 8th for his position.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1116609

Cecil Lammey (I know you know who that is) was saying he should have been a fifth rounder...I had not heard anyone else say that and thought it seemed a bit off.

I think Cecil missed the boat on this one.

[CoachChaz]

IIRC, in his presser, Irving said he now weighs 245, that he wants to play at 242.
That is up considerably from his 237 as a senior . . .

-----

I think he can play at a higher weight. For obvious reasons, he lost quite a few pounds after the accident and really only had a brief off-season and the season to get back up to weight. I dont see 245 being difficult for him to attain and maintain

[CoachChaz]

If I am understanding the following, it appears he was ranked 60th overall - 8th for his position.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1116609

I would say 2nd or 3rd, but not lower. That link you are referring to has Cannon ranked ahead of him and I dont get it. Cannon will be a guard in the NFL and even there, I doubt he has the nastiness to excel. I dont see how they came up with that ranking.

I use to have a side gig working security at concert venues and when I worked at Pizza Hut park, we would get kids form the SMU and TCU football programs. After his sophomore year I had to train Cannon and a few others on some things. Even in a situation where he could intimidate anyone at will...he always seemed hesitant. Not that it has anything to do with his football skills, but I think he is overrated.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Cecil Lammey (I know you know who that is) was saying he should have been a fifth rounder...I had not heard anyone else say that and thought it seemed a bit off.

I think Cecil missed the boat on this one.

Yes - I know who Cecil is. However, I put much more stock in knowing that John/Coach/Brian spent COUNTLESS hours in the film room before the draft. They did not just stand up on draft day and throw darts at their draft board.

[SOCALORADO.]

I would say 2nd or 3rd, but not lower. That link you are referring to has Cannon ranked ahead of him and I dont get it. Cannon will be a guard in the NFL and even there, I doubt he has the nastiness to excel. I dont see how they came up with that ranking.

I use to have a side gig working security at concert venues and when I worked at Pizza Hut park, we would get kids form the SMU and TCU football programs. After his sophomore year I had to train Cannon and a few others on some things. Even in a situation where he could intimidate anyone at will...he always seemed hesitant. Not that it has anything to do with his football skills, but I think he is overrated.

Quick Cannon story.
A kid i train, lets call him Daivd who plays for a southen cal school at OLB, has a girlfriend who goes to TCU on scholarship. He goes out there every so often to see her.
Last year at a house party at TCU David got up to go to the pisser and in the hall way to the pisser was Cannon. He looked at David and said where you think your goin?
Daivd said he was goin to the pisser and Cannon sorta laughed and made like a wall, basically saying "no way". David who is 6-0 245 simply threw him into the wall and moved him aside. Went and took his piss. Came back out and Cannon had a bunch of friends in the hall, but one of them knew who David was and cooled the whole thing out. David never backed down, but he thought it was funny that Cannon needed a bunch of his friends to try and handle David. They all got along after this small incident, but clearly Cannon thinks hes bigger than he is. And David is NOT an instigator at all. Not his MO.
I feel a bit sorry for him now that hes battling cancer and hopefully everything works out for him.

[TXBRONC]

Yes - I know who Cecil is. However, I put much more stock in knowing that John/Coach/Brian spent COUNTLESS hours in the film room before the draft. They did not just stand up on draft day and throw darts at their draft board.

Mothers know everything. :nod:

[CoachChaz]

Quick Cannon story.
A kid i train, lets call him Daivd who plays for a southen cal school at OLB, has a girlfriend who goes to TCU on scholarship. He goes out there every so often to see her.
Last year at a house party at TCU David got up to go to the pisser and in the hall way to the pisser was Cannon. He looked at David and said where you think your goin?
Daivd said he was goin to the pisser and Cannon sorta laughed and made like a wall, basically saying "no way". David who is 6-0 245 simply threw him into the wall and moved him aside. Went and took his piss. Came back out and Cannon had a bunch of friends in the hall, but one of them knew who David was and cooled the whole thing out. David never backed down, but he thought it was funny that Cannon needed a bunch of his friends to try and handle David. They all got along after this small incident, but clearly Cannon thinks hes bigger than he is. And David is NOT an instigator at all. Not his MO.
I feel a bit sorry for him now that hes battling cancer and hopefully everything works out for him.

Sounds familiar. I once had to toss a drunk out of a Kenny Chesney concert. The drunk was a chick, but her boyfriend was getting in my face. I always seek the help of someone else simply to avoid a confrontation period, but mostly to make sure there is a witness to any actions that take place. I'm over 6 foot and 240, but I got Cannon and one of our supervisors (who is an MMA trainer) involved in the scenario. Both of them stood around looking dumbfounded and useless. Then the guy drops the N word and I figure Cannon is going to lose control. Instead, he gets a few of his TCU buddies to come over to the situation and do some collective shit-talking to the dude.

In the end it takes me 3 minutes to get a cop to escort the drunks out and 20 minutes to get Cannon and company to shut up and get back to their posts.

Again, this was a few years ago and I'd hope he has matured since then, but he just doesnt seem to have the mentality I want in a lineman.

Interesting that we have so many stories on Cannon

[SOCALORADO.]

Sounds familiar. I once had to toss a drunk out of a Kenny Chesney concert. The drunk was a chick, but her boyfriend was getting in my face. I always seek the help of someone else simply to avoid a confrontation period, but mostly to make sure there is a witness to any actions that take place. I'm over 6 foot and 240, but I got Cannon and one of our supervisors (who is an MMA trainer) involved in the scenario. Both of them stood around looking dumbfounded and useless. Then the guy drops the N word and I figure Cannon is going to lose control. Instead, he gets a few of his TCU buddies to come over to the situation and do some collective shit-talking to the dude.

In the end it takes me 3 minutes to get a cop to escort the drunks out and 20 minutes to get Cannon and company to shut up and get back to their posts.

Again, this was a few years ago and I'd hope he has matured since then, but he just doesnt seem to have the mentality I want in a lineman.

Interesting that we have so many stories on Cannon

Well, he went to the right team i guess for a dose of reality.
Things are about to change for Mr Cannon.

[SOCALORADO.]

Sounds familiar. I once had to toss a drunk out of a Kenny Chesney concert. The drunk was a chick, but her boyfriend was getting in my face. I always seek the help of someone else simply to avoid a confrontation period, but mostly to make sure there is a witness to any actions that take place. I'm over 6 foot and 240, but I got Cannon and one of our supervisors (who is an MMA trainer) involved in the scenario. Both of them stood around looking dumbfounded and useless. Then the guy drops the N word and I figure Cannon is going to lose control. Instead, he gets a few of his TCU buddies to come over to the situation and do some collective shit-talking to the dude.

In the end it takes me 3 minutes to get a cop to escort the drunks out and 20 minutes to get Cannon and company to shut up and get back to their posts.

Again, this was a few years ago and I'd hope he has matured since then, but he just doesnt seem to have the mentality I want in a lineman.

Interesting that we have so many stories on Cannon

You know its funny now that i really think about Davids story, he said he was suprised that Cannon didnt resist him when he basically threw him outta the way in the hall. Almost like he just relied on his size to intimidate everyone.
but once it gets really physical, he doesnt know what to do.

[CoachChaz]

Well, he went to the right team i guess for a dose of reality.
Things are about to change for Mr Cannon.

If it even gets that far. He was just diagnosed with cancer. It's treatable, but that's going to be one hell of a setback. If he doesnt have the drive that he has yet to show...his career is over before it starts.

It's a cancer similar to what my wife fights and the recovery rate is over 90%, but it's still a grueling process.

[SOCALORADO.]

If it even gets that far. He was just diagnosed with cancer. It's treatable, but that's going to be one hell of a setback. If he doesnt have the drive that he has yet to show...his career is over before it starts.

It's a cancer similar to what my wife fights and the recovery rate is over 90%, but it's still a grueling process.

Yeah, its a setback, but if he has the right support, like your wife, he can get through it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mothers know everything. :nod:

And DON'T you ever forget that ;)