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Italianmobstr7
10-15-2008, 09:43 PM
CBS 4 reports that Calvin Lowry worked with the starters today and will most likely remain a starter vs. New England.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/oct/15/broncos-report-preparing-for-cassel/?partner=RSS

Change at safety

Calvin Lowry, whom the Broncos claimed off waivers from the Titans in the days leading to the season opener, was working at free safety with the defensive starters Wednesday, replacing Marlon McCree.

Lowry played sparingly in some defensive packages when McCree briefly left the lineup this season because of injury and has played on special teams for the most part.

Monday night in New England would be Lowry's first start in a regular-season game since playing for the Titans in their wild-card playoff loss to the Chargers on Jan. 6.

"I'm just practicing right now, see how it goes," Lowry said. "We'll find out Monday night. I'm going to try to do the best I can do with the opportunity."

Broncos coach Mike Shanahan stressed the importance of speed in the secondary of late, emphasizing Broncos defensive backs have to be active in run defense as well if the team is going to limit potential big plays in the run game.

The Broncos have surrendered four runs this season of at least 38 yards, including a 46-yard touchdown run by the Jaguars' Maurice Jones-Drew on Sunday.

Lowry was one of the fastest safeties available in the 2006 draft, having been clocked at 4.49 seconds in the 40-yard dash on the electronic clock at the scouting combine that year.

BroncoAV06
10-15-2008, 09:46 PM
Could be Marlon, ever since his stinger he has gone down at least once a game since then, but that is all just speculation on my part as well.

Dortoh
10-15-2008, 09:48 PM
Is this exciting or does it speak volumes about our serious issues at safety. My guess is the lack of good options.

SmilinAssasSin27
10-15-2008, 09:56 PM
W/ Tennessee's defensive talent, his being cut doesn't mean he can't play. We need someone else than who has been back there so give the kid a shot.

ikillz0mbies
10-15-2008, 10:13 PM
That's not good....there goes my adopted Bronco....

topscribe
10-15-2008, 10:15 PM
Lowry is definitely faster than McCree, and he might be better at safety. But
the results will be the same if they can't get an improved pass rush up front.
I don't care if they have Dennis Smith and Ronnie Lott back there: If the QB
has time to pause for a quick lunch during a pass play, the secondary is in
trouble.

-----

OMorange&blue
10-15-2008, 10:18 PM
If the safeties are better, the coverage is better, and the sacks will come.

That said, who the **** is Lowry?

JKcatch724
10-15-2008, 10:22 PM
meh. This is like trading a dollar for four quarters.

Ziggy
10-15-2008, 10:29 PM
Lowry is definitely faster than McCree, and he might be better at safety. But
the results will be the same if they can't get an improved pass rush up front.
I don't care if they have Dennis Smith and Ronnie Lott back there: If the QB
has time to pause for a quick lunch during a pass play, the secondary is in
trouble.

-----

Well said Top. The best thing about Brady being out is that we should be able to disguise some blitz packages and hopefully throw off the QB's timing. If we use that 3 man rush much, I'll officially be on the fire Slowick bandwagon.

red98
10-15-2008, 10:29 PM
If the safeties are better, the coverage is better, and the sacks will come.

That said, who the **** is Lowry?


Great point, back in the late 90s the Broncos didn't always get fast pressure,
but their fast LBs and good coverage safeties, bought them time.

Lowry has played some this season at safety, but I haven't noticed any great change in results.

But then I'm usually drinking during the games, so what do I know?

dogfish
10-15-2008, 10:37 PM
Lowry is definitely faster than McCree, and he might be better at safety. But
the results will be the same if they can't get an improved pass rush up front.
I don't care if they have Dennis Smith and Ronnie Lott back there: If the QB
has time to pause for a quick lunch during a pass play, the secondary is in
trouble.

-----

maybe, but ronnie lott didn't let tight ends run right past him, and i doubt either of those guys missed as many tackles over the course of their careers as our present alleged safeties have missed this year. . . remember BOTH of the assclowns bouncing off estandia, then falling down and watching helplessly as he strolled into the endzone? i sure don't remember smith or the smilin' assasin ever doing THAT! :tsk:


i agree with your larger point regarding coverage, but at this point i'm in favor of a change. . . the current guys are useless, let somebody else have a shot and see if he can actually make some tackles-- what we're getting right now is some of the worst safety play i have ever seen. . .

is this move likely to be "the answer?" i doubt it like hell. . . most likely, this efense isn't getting fixed until we get some better front-line players, better talent at safety and possibly middle linebacker, and a coordinator that hasn't been a failure everywhere he's gone. . . but, that doesn't mean that we should just throw our hands up in the air and stop trying in the meantime. . . i'm all for letting lowry have a shot-- and if he sucks as bad as manuel and mccree, bring up barrett and let him take a swing at it. . . i don't see how it can get much worse, unless they just start running straight for the sidelines as soon as the ball is snapped. . . . :laugh:

honz
10-15-2008, 11:20 PM
At least he will bring some athleticism to the Safety position...it is painful to watch our safeties get outrun by by LJ and MJD all the way to the endzone.

omac
10-15-2008, 11:24 PM
maybe, but ronnie lott didn't let tight ends run right past him, and i doubt either of those guys missed as many tackles over the course of their careers as our present alleged safeties have missed this year. . . remember BOTH of the assclowns bouncing off estandia, then falling down and watching helplessly as he strolled into the endzone? i sure don't remember smith or the smilin' assasin ever doing THAT! :tsk:


i agree with your larger point regarding coverage, but at this point i'm in favor of a change. . . the current guys are useless, let somebody else have a shot and see if he can actually make some tackles-- what we're getting right now is some of the worst safety play i have ever seen. . .

is this move likely to be "the answer?" i doubt it like hell. . . most likely, this efense isn't getting fixed until we get some better front-line players, better talent at safety and possibly middle linebacker, and a coordinator that hasn't been a failure everywhere he's gone. . . but, that doesn't mean that we should just throw our hands up in the air and stop trying in the meantime. . . i'm all for letting lowry have a shot-- and if he sucks as bad as manuel and mccree, bring up barrett and let him take a swing at it. . . i don't see how it can get much worse, unless they just start running straight for the sidelines as soon as the ball is snapped. . . . :laugh:

Ugh, I hated that play where they bounced off each other. I think McCree's played well in some games, and Manuel played well in other games; both haven't been good consistently and at the same time, though.

I agree with SmilinAssasSin27; coming from a good Titans defense, Lowry might be a pretty good player. :cheers:

hamrob
10-16-2008, 12:09 AM
If it's speed and atheletesim we think we're missing at the Safety Position...why wouldn't we get rid of Manual and bring Barrett up?

Yeah...Lowery may run a 4.46 at free safety.

But heck...Barrett runs a 4.36 at strong safety. There's no way...he could be any worse than Manual. Heck McCree has played better than Manual!

Italianmobstr7
10-16-2008, 12:15 AM
A little insight on Lowry for those that don't know. The guy was a stud in college. Played at Penn State, and really did a great job back there for the Nittany Lions. That said, he had a sort of rough transition to the pro's. He got drafted by Tennessee and couldn't crack the starting lineup, but was a very very good special teams player. Because of injury he played in 11 or 12 games last year and did a pretty good job. He was cut by Tennessee in the off-season in a cap saving move more than a "you're not very good" cut.

I was happy when we signed him, and think that he'll play well for us. I was hoping that McCree and Lowry would start because I've been very underwhelmed by Manuel so far, but hopefully bringing Lowry in to start will help our team out period. It would be nice to see a pass batted down by a safety or a cb at some point in this year. So far it seems the only passes that are incomplete are the ones that the other teams receivers drop or the passes are off. Hopefully we can change that around a little bit.

Lonestar
10-16-2008, 12:26 AM
Great point, back in the late 90s the Broncos didn't always get fast pressure,
but their fast LBs and good coverage safeties, bought them time.

Lowry has played some this season at safety, but I haven't noticed any great change in results.

But then I'm usually drinking during the games, so what do I know?

finally a fan that admits to not being better than the coaches.. but then I wonder what the coaches are on?

honz
10-16-2008, 05:34 AM
Bet heck...Barrett runs a 3.36 at strong safety.

:shocked:

muse
10-16-2008, 06:04 AM
I'm interested in Lowry, he could be one of our answers at safety. He's still quite young so he's far off from being the complete package but he can play both FS and SS which is pretty useful. I'm hoping he can replace Manuel (assuming that McCree's been demoted due to injury).

BigSarge87
10-16-2008, 08:58 AM
:shocked:

LOL, that's flat out moving now!!!

GEM
10-16-2008, 09:12 AM
Lowry is definitely faster than McCree, and he might be better at safety. But
the results will be the same if they can't get an improved pass rush up front.
I don't care if they have Dennis Smith and Ronnie Lott back there: If the QB
has time to pause for a quick lunch during a pass play, the secondary is in
trouble.

-----

We have 2 pro bowl cornerbacks back there and neither of them get close to an INT. You're exactly right Topper, without help up front, those pro bowlers haven't made a whole heck of a lot of difference. :tsk: Sadly....our top CB makes more tackles on the run than our Dline and LB's.

Dreadnought
10-16-2008, 09:19 AM
Hell, why not? He can't really be a downgrade from the two stiffs we have back there now, can he?

GEM
10-16-2008, 09:22 AM
Hell, why not? He can't really be a downgrade from the two stiffs we have back there now, can he?

YOUTH movement...

TXBRONC
10-16-2008, 09:22 AM
We have 2 pro bowl cornerbacks back there and neither of them get close to an INT. You're exactly right Topper, without help up front, those pro bowlers haven't made a whole heck of a lot of difference. :tsk: Sadly....our top CB makes more tackles on the run than our Dline and LB's.

Champ doesn't see much action but Bly has. I'm not trying rip Bly but it's not like he hasn't had chances to make more plays than he has.

GEM
10-16-2008, 09:25 AM
Champ doesn't see much action but Bly has. I'm not trying rip Bly but it's not like he hasn't had chances to make more plays than he has.

With all the action Bly has gotten this season, I'm not sure if he even knows which way is up. His play has been bad at times, but every play is made on him. When that happens, you're gonna lose the battle sometimes.

silkamilkamonico
10-16-2008, 09:29 AM
Bly gets beat because apparently he's covering the other team's #1 most of the time.

Someone inform Slowik that Champ Bailey is our #1 CB, and not Dre Bly.

I still have a manhate on Bly.

LRtagger
10-16-2008, 09:29 AM
LOL, that's flat out moving now!!!

3.36 has to be a typo...nfl.com says he ran a 4.35 40.

LRtagger
10-16-2008, 09:31 AM
Bly gets beat because apparently he's covering the other team's #1 most of the time.

Someone inform Slowik that Champ Bailey is our #1 CB, and not Dre Bly.

I still have a manhate on Bly.

Also inform slowik that providing a 10 yard cushion and blitzing at the same time dont work. There is a simple solution to opposing QBs throwing for over 75% against our secondary.

Dreadnought
10-16-2008, 09:42 AM
Also inform slowik that providing a 10 yard cushion and blitzing at the same time dont work. There is a simple solution to opposing QBs throwing for over 75% against our secondary.

That tells me he has no faith that the blitz will actually bring any real heat and will be picked up easily - therefore the thing to do is just to prevent the deep ball.

LRtagger
10-16-2008, 09:52 AM
That tells me he has no faith that the blitz will actually bring any real heat and will be picked up easily - therefore the thing to do is just to prevent the deep ball.

That is mainly because the blitzes he draws up do not work. If he would mix in some stunts and show blitz with one LB, back him off and bring it from another angle it would work. Also most of his blitzes come from directly up the middle. We have fast enough LBs to bring it off the edges. Our LBs also do not seem to commit to the blitz. They are very tentative like they are worried about the play getting past them, but even when they do not blitz they are playing catch up anyways. Makes me think Slowik is more worried about giving up big plays than letting his players attack aggressively. Even more evidence is the dumb 3 deep zone we seem to run when we get any kind of lead. Slowik is coaching scared.

Also I have noticed that our DL has a tough time getting their hands up to bat balls down. Does anyone have a statistic for how many passes we have knocked down at the LOS? I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 3. :tsk:

Dreadnought
10-16-2008, 10:01 AM
That is mainly because the blitzes he draws up do not work. If he would mix in some stunts and show blitz with one LB, back him off and bring it from another angle it would work. Also most of his blitzes come from directly up the middle. We have fast enough LBs to bring it off the edges. Our LBs also do not seem to commit to the blitz. They are very tentative like they are worried about the play getting past them, but even when they do not blitz they are playing catch up anyways. Makes me think Slowik is more worried about giving up big plays than letting his players attack aggressively. Even more evidence is the dumb 3 deep zone we seem to run when we get any kind of lead. Slowik is coaching scared.

Also I have noticed that our DL has a tough time getting their hands up to bat balls down. Does anyone have a statistic for how many passes we have knocked down at the LOS? I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 3. :tsk:


Agreed. That doesn't change the fact that we have two safeties who provide the coverage skills of John Lynch combined with the hitting prowess of Deltha O'Neil. It all needs to be fixed.

LRtagger
10-16-2008, 10:13 AM
Agreed. That doesn't change the fact that we have two safeties who provide the coverage skills of John Lynch combined with the hitting prowess of Deltha O'Neil. It all needs to be fixed.

I hope Lowry can provide some kind of spark, but we need someone out there that can mash the ball carrier and fire up the other guys and make them want to hurt someone.

Lonestar
10-16-2008, 10:38 AM
as one greatest LB we ever had said practices in DEN now are more like "club med than a real football team"..

If you do not this in practice you will not tackle with authority during a game..

When the only tackling you may do during the week is on game day how much practice do you get to wrap up.. 5-8 chances a week.. per player

let me repeat that 5-8 chances a WEAK..

who was one of best tackler over the past few years

John Lynch because he was not born in mikeys system.. He learned defense and tackling in TPA.. Hmmmmmmm

TXBRONC
10-16-2008, 11:57 AM
as one greatest LB we ever had said practices in DEN now are more like "club med than a real football team"..

If you do not this in practice you will not tackle with authority during a game..

When the only tackling you may do during the week is on game day how much practice do you get to wrap up.. 5-8 chances a week.. per player

let me repeat that 5-8 chances a WEAK..

who was one of best tackler over the past few years

John Lynch because he was not born in mikeys system.. He learned defense and tackling in TPA.. Hmmmmmmm

Hmmm both McCree and Mannuel are veteran safeties that played for other teams just like John Lynch yet they are not very good at tackling. Interesting isn't it? :coffee:

SmilinAssasSin27
10-16-2008, 04:21 PM
Another thing to consider is the relationship between Jeff Fisher and Shanny. You know very well Shanny made the call to Jeff before signing Lowry. If the kid couldn't play, Fisher woulda told huim so.

TXBRONC
10-16-2008, 04:23 PM
Another thing to consider is the relationship between Jeff Fisher and Shanny. You know very well Shanny made the call to Jeff before signing Lowry. If the kid couldn't play, Fisher woulda told huim so.

I agree.

rcsodak
10-16-2008, 09:31 PM
as one greatest LB we ever had said practices in DEN now are more like "club med than a real football team"..

If you do not this in practice you will not tackle with authority during a game..

When the only tackling you may do during the week is on game day how much practice do you get to wrap up.. 5-8 chances a week.. per player

let me repeat that 5-8 chances a WEAK..

who was one of best tackler over the past few years

John Lynch because he was not born in mikeys system.. He learned defense and tackling in TPA.. Hmmmmmmm

In all fairness, jr, with the teams being limited in players, hitting isn't done by ALOT of teams, these days. That's what camp/pre-season was for, but because of the 80player limit, many coaches were leery of losing their top notch players and not having depth.

horsepig
10-16-2008, 09:54 PM
Anybody watch MJD (I think, at that point I was getting sick) run right past Manuel & McCree and on the way to the end zone some other Jag raced right between our two slug safeties to help "block" for MJD who had already run right past'em anyway? Cripes man! These guys suck!

Lonestar
10-16-2008, 11:51 PM
In all fairness, Jr, with the teams being limited in players, hitting isn't done by ALOT of teams, these days. That's what camp/pre-season was for, but because of the 80player limit, many coaches were leery of losing their top notch players and not having depth.

this started several years ago early in the FA process many FA coming in said this was a big reason they signed here instead of competing teams..

Whereas John Lynch learned to play defense from the master Tony Dungy and If fact Herm Edwards as his DB coach back in TPA..

Many teams now days play the pampered athlete and do as you say not
hitting Tackling in practice..

But remember the adage you play like you practice..

LRtagger
10-20-2008, 02:02 PM
Does anyone know if Lowry has been confirmed as the starter tonight? Is Manuel still starting?

JKcatch724
10-20-2008, 02:25 PM
Another thing to consider is the relationship between Jeff Fisher and Shanny. You know very well Shanny made the call to Jeff before signing Lowry. If the kid couldn't play, Fisher woulda told huim so.

Or maybe he's getting back at Shanny for missing out on Cutler :laugh:

topscribe
10-20-2008, 02:35 PM
Does anyone know if Lowry has been confirmed as the starter tonight? Is Manuel still starting?

I'm not sure if anybody knows at this point. McCree is still the starter on the
official depth chart, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Pittman, for
instance, is #3 on the depth chart, but he started last week, and I'll bet he
starts this week . . .

-----

honz
10-20-2008, 02:40 PM
Does anyone know if Lowry has been confirmed as the starter tonight? Is Manuel still starting?

I read yesterday that Lowry was practicing with the first teamers all week in place of McCree. And I assume Manuel is still starting...I haven't heard anything that would make me think otherwise.

turftoad
10-20-2008, 02:50 PM
One scrub in for another.

Sorry guys, JMO.

We need to address that position, big time, this off season.

Dortoh
10-20-2008, 02:52 PM
One scrub in for another.

Sorry guys, JMO.

We need to address that position, big time, this off season.

Nothing to be sorry about your 100% correct

honz
10-20-2008, 03:00 PM
One scrub in for another.

Sorry guys, JMO.

We need to address that position, big time, this off season.

Lowry supposedly played solid for Tennessee last year when he started like 10 games or so, plus it sounds like he is a much better athlete than McCree...so I hold out some hope that he will improve our D a bit.:nod:

Please?

Medford Bronco
10-20-2008, 03:08 PM
Lowry supposedly played solid for Tennessee last year when he started like 10 games or so, plus it sounds like he is a much better athlete than McCree...so I hold out some hope that he will improve our D a bit.:nod:

Please?

the back 4 only get better if the front four actually get some push and put pressure on a QB with minimal help from blizes

that is our huge weekeness the front 4 for sure

turftoad
10-20-2008, 03:12 PM
the back 4 only get better if the front four actually get some push and put pressure on a QB with minimal help from blizes

that is our huge weekeness the front 4 for sure

True, however, bringing in 4 FA safteys that weren't good enough to make it on the teams they were on isn't a good start either.

Sucks both ways. And... we haven't even mentioned the LB position here yet.

Medford Bronco
10-20-2008, 03:14 PM
True, however, bringing in 4 FA safteys that weren't good enough to make it on the teams they were on isn't a good start either.

Sucks both ways. And... we haven't even mentioned the LB position here yet.

at least the LBs have been good at times with Webster and DJ :salute:


lets hope Cassel trips over his o linemans feet so we can get a sack tonight :lol:

turftoad
10-20-2008, 03:16 PM
at least the LBs have been good at times with Webster and DJ :salute:


lets hope Cassel trips over his o linemans feet so we can get a sack tonight :lol:

I'm sure he'll have plenty of time to get up. :D

LRtagger
10-20-2008, 03:18 PM
I'm sure he'll have plenty of time to get up. :D

No kidding...he may even take a quick nap before getting up. It will be pretty late, ya know.

BroncosRockdaRockies
10-20-2008, 03:27 PM
W/ Tennessee's defensive talent, his being cut doesn't mean he can't play. We need someone else than who has been back there so give the kid a shot.

I like this statement! The fact that we didn't get him until the 2nd week could be because Tenn was un sure who to trade they do have good Depth at Safety!! I wish him Good Luck and hope he makes the Defense Proud! But he is a Hitter i do know that!!!!!:defense:

Medford Bronco
10-20-2008, 04:12 PM
I did not know the Broncos traded for Nick Lowry who used to be with the Chiefs :lol:

Seriously this shows how bad our safeties really are :crutch:

Lonestar
10-20-2008, 04:53 PM
One scrub in for another.

Sorry guys, JMO.

We need to address that position, big time, this off season.


He may be the real deal or for the lack of nothing else we can see if he is or not.. We know what mcree is if this kid can come in and be almost as good as a virgin then he can get better mcree is as good as he is going to get..

Most likely we will be addressing this spot on day one this year.. but maybe not with TWO choice in the draft just maybe one if the kid can show something..

I'd rather play a rookie and see if he can get better than a scrub recycled FA that we already have figured out..

dogfish
10-20-2008, 10:44 PM
well, that was a tremendous fiasco. . . he's every bit as terrible as the other stiffs. . . i haven't seen an efense that tackles as poorly as ours since the '03 chiefs. . . . :frusty:

ChampWJ
10-20-2008, 10:48 PM
well, that was a tremendous fiasco. . . he's every bit as terrible as the other stiffs. . . i haven't seen an efense that tackles as poorly as ours since the '03 chiefs. . . . :frusty:

I've never seen a player short arm so many tackles since.........well, Nate Webster and Hamza Abdullah last year. Horrible game for Lowry. He does not deserve a roster spot.

NightTrainLayne
10-20-2008, 11:01 PM
I am scared to say this because it means we are in worse shape than ever, but can anyone really say that the defense was any worse after Champ got hurt?

We need to deal Champ, and start building from the ground up. There's just too much tied up in him. I've resisted that thought for a long time, but he's not superman.

Edit: Oh, and Larson sucks ass.

Lonestar
10-20-2008, 11:27 PM
sorry from the plays I saw he made a lot of tackles albeit down field but if memory serves me correctly he is supposed to stop everyone that gets past the rest of the defense that is why it is called safety..

Now maybe he is not the answer but he sure and hell is better than mcree was.IMO..

He is young and inexperienced I expect him to make mistakes, I do not expect that out of a experienced veteran.

Jerz
10-20-2008, 11:36 PM
sorry from the plays I saw he made a lot of tackles albeit down field but if memory serves me correctly he is supposed to stop everyone that gets past the rest of the defense that is why it is called safety..

Now maybe he is not the answer but he sure and hell is better than mcree was.IMO..

He is young and inexperienced I expect him to make mistakes, I do not expect that out of a experienced veteran.

I cant count on both hands how many tackles he missed alone.....Lowry sucks

shank
10-21-2008, 01:22 AM
i never once saw lowry hit a guy and stop him, let alone drive him back. i saw several times where the opposing running back put lowry on the ground and went on uncontested, and i counted several other times when the runningback would drag lowry an extra 3-7 yards before going down.

guy hits like a .4 horsepower marshmallow tricycle.

Rex
10-21-2008, 10:01 AM
Hopefully that is the last start.

Cut him.

Broncolingus
10-21-2008, 10:11 AM
I am scared to say this because it means we are in worse shape than ever, but can anyone really say that the defense was any worse after Champ got hurt?

We need to deal Champ, and start building from the ground up. There's just too much tied up in him. I've resisted that thought for a long time, but he's not superman.

Edit: Oh, and Larson sucks ass.

I remember these threads 2-3 years ago and thought no because I thought Denver could 'build' and sustain a defensive front 7 through the draft and FA...maybe having to trade a decent player or two to seal the deal...

...now, I think Denver's going to have to 'give' something like this solve the problems along the DL and LBs.

I'm also now less and less impressed with the play of our Safety's...

GEM
10-21-2008, 10:14 AM
I am scared to say this because it means we are in worse shape than ever, but can anyone really say that the defense was any worse after Champ got hurt?

We need to deal Champ, and start building from the ground up. There's just too much tied up in him. I've resisted that thought for a long time, but he's not superman.

Edit: Oh, and Larson sucks ass.

Yea....they were worse. When Champ was in Moss got nowhere. When he went out, Moss went on to make 3 or 4 td's.

turftoad
10-21-2008, 10:15 AM
i never once saw lowry hit a guy and stop him, let alone drive him back. i saw several times where the opposing running back put lowry on the ground and went on uncontested, and i counted several other times when the runningback would drag lowry an extra 3-7 yards before going down.

guy hits like a .4 horsepower marshmallow tricycle.

Totally agree.

He looked like a poor mans version of Kenoy Kennedy out there. :tsk:

NightTrainLayne
10-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I remember these threads 2-3 years ago and thought no because I thought Denver could 'build' and sustain a defensive front 7 through the draft and FA...maybe having to trade a decent player or two to seal the deal...

...now, I think Denver's going to have to 'give' something like this solve the problems along the DL and LBs.

I'm also now less and less impressed with the play of our Safety's...

I've been against it until now as well, but even if Champ is healthy for the whole game, they're going to score on us.

There are just too many holes for Champ to fill 'em. Yes, he was pretty much shutting down Moss, which is great, but in the mean-time Sammie Morris had something like 138 yards. . .in the 1st half.

I don't know where we need to start, but I do think that we could still get some value from Champ, not to mention some cap relief if someone else will take on his contract.

NightTrainLayne
10-21-2008, 10:17 AM
Yea....they were worse. When Champ was in Moss got nowhere. When he went out, Moss went on to make 3 or 4 td's.

I tried to address this in the post above. The Pats were still moving up and down the field on us. We lose big with or without Champ.

Can anyone argue with that?

sacmar
10-21-2008, 10:21 AM
If champ didin't cover moss as much as he did it would have been 87-7 so champ does help.

GEM
10-21-2008, 10:27 AM
I tried to address this in the post above. The Pats were still moving up and down the field on us. We lose big with or without Champ.

Can anyone argue with that?

Their passing game didn't move them up and down the field until Champ went out. They killed us with the run up until then. Without Champ's run support this year, we'd be even worse.

The only way I see us dealing Champ is if he gets sick of the ish and demands a trade.

NightTrainLayne
10-21-2008, 10:33 AM
Their passing game didn't move them up and down the field until Champ went out. They killed us with the run up until then. Without Champ's run support this year, we'd be even worse.

The only way I see us dealing Champ is if he gets sick of the ish and demands a trade.

Maybe you're right, but I just feel like we were getting our asses kicked with Champ, and we got our asses kicked without him. Our defense has been getting it's ass kicked all season (save one or two games), and he's been there for every game.

We probably don't trade him, and I'm ok with that, but we need to get serious about building a defense. Putting it off another year is not an option.

BTW, how long did you agree to sport that sig?

LawDog
10-21-2008, 11:03 AM
I am scared to say this because it means we are in worse shape than ever, but can anyone really say that the defense was any worse after Champ got hurt?

We need to deal Champ, and start building from the ground up. There's just too much tied up in him. I've resisted that thought for a long time, but he's not superman.

Edit: Oh, and Larson sucks ass.

So we trade Champ and get what for him? Some pieces to try and shore up other parts of the D? Then we end up with mediocre across the board. Let's try it another way. Say you've got a great QB but no weapons. Do you trade the franchise QB? Nope, you keep building around him. Same thing on D; we keep Champ and keep trying to build the rest of the D. Bly needs to go. Boss needs to go - he looked like a good idea over the summer, but he isn't helping and gets hurt too often (and left the game again last night). There are just too many areas that need help - and trading away Champ doesn't have enough upside to make it worth the risk of completely scrapping the one bright spot in our pass D.

Lowry was either on his face in the turf or trying to arm tackle the RB up around the shoulder pads - never, ever, ever gonna work. On the first rushing TD, Lowry is up around the arms and was as effective as tossing a pillow at Morris. You can't play safety in this league if you're afraid to throw your body down low at a running back. Rusty or not - his fundamentals are just horrible.

GEM
10-21-2008, 11:07 AM
Maybe you're right, but I just feel like we were getting our asses kicked with Champ, and we got our asses kicked without him. Our defense has been getting it's ass kicked all season (save one or two games), and he's been there for every game.

We probably don't trade him, and I'm ok with that, but we need to get serious about building a defense. Putting it off another year is not an option.

BTW, how long did you agree to sport that sig?

The only keepers on this D is Champ, DJ, Elvis and possibly Thomas. Other than that, I wouldn't mind seeing a complete overhaul...especially at coordinator. I wouldn't mind seeing Larsen getting some time, guy hits like a beast. If I see Winborn pull another of his facemasks in the end zone or getting up dancing while down by 30 points, I think I'll puke. :tsk:

3 weeks.

NightTrainLayne
10-21-2008, 11:09 AM
So we trade Champ and get what for him? Some pieces to try and shore up other parts of the D? Then we end up with mediocre across the board. Let's try it another way. Say you've got a great QB but no weapons. Do you trade the franchise QB? Nope, you keep building around him. Same thing on D; we keep Champ and keep trying to build the rest of the D. Bly needs to go. Boss needs to go - he looked like a good idea over the summer, but he isn't helping and gets hurt too often (and left the game again last night). There are just too many areas that need help - and trading away Champ doesn't have enough upside to make it worth the risk of completely scrapping the one bright spot in our pass D.

Lowry was either on his face in the turf or trying to arm tackle the RB up around the shoulder pads - never, ever, ever gonna work. On the first rushing TD, Lowry is up around the arms and was as effective as tossing a pillow at Morris. You can't play safety in this league if you're afraid to throw your body down low at a running back. Rusty or not - his fundamentals are just horrible.

I'm not against the idea of building around a franchise QB type player, but how many other teams build their defense around the CB?

It seems to me that's what we've been trying to do for going on 5 years now, and it hasn't worked.

Add to that that Champ is definitely on the down-hill side of his career, and it makes for a bad idea to "build around" him imo. How many games in the past three years has he been injured or nursing injuries and not at 100%? This will only get worse going forward.

I love Champ. I hope we can build around him and use him for another 2-3 years, but I'm afraid that he's occupying too much of our salary cap, and think that he still has some trade value.

I'm not terribly impassioned in trading him, but we've got a lot of work to do, and a couple of extra good draft picks (if they're available) "I think" would do more good than another 2 years of having Champ around at full-speed.

Broncolingus
10-21-2008, 11:10 AM
...If I see Winborn pull another of his facemasks in the end zone or getting up dancing while down by 30 points, I think I'll puke. :tsk:

3 weeks.

Amen...

Broncolingus
10-21-2008, 11:12 AM
I've been against it until now as well, but evin if Champ is healthy for the whole game, they're going to score on us.

There are just too many holes for Champ to fill 'em. Yes, he was pretty much shutting down Moss, which is great, but in the mean-time Sammie Morris had something like 138 yards. . .in the 1st half.

I don't know where we need to start, but I do think that we could still get some value from Champ, not to mention some cap relief if someone else will take on his contract.

I agree...

If I were running the show, I'd get a guy like Nolan (physical and intimidating defensive philosophy) then let him work with the GM to start 'building' the foundation for that thru draft, FA, and trade...

I still think, unfortunately, we're going to have give some folks we'd like to keep for that...

...I don't know.

roomemp
10-21-2008, 11:14 AM
The only keepers on this D is Champ, DJ, Elvis and possibly Thomas. Other than that, I wouldn't mind seeing a complete overhaul...especially at coordinator. I wouldn't mind seeing Larsen getting some time, guy hits like a beast. If I see Winborn pull another of his facemasks in the end zone or getting up dancing while down by 30 points, I think I'll puke. :tsk:

3 weeks.

I am not sure about Doom. He is going to be costly to keep. Not sure he will be worth the price. I would not be against shopping Doom. I do agree we have to build up front to correct this thing......even if we have to trade Champ.

P.S.-Gem I can't get back to work after seeing your sig :cool:

LawDog
10-21-2008, 11:24 AM
I'm not against the idea of building around a franchise QB type player, but how many other teams build their defense around the CB?

It seems to me that's what we've been trying to do for going on 5 years now, and it hasn't worked.

Add to that that Champ is definitely on the down-hill side of his career, and it makes for a bad idea to "build around" him imo. How many games in the past three years has he been injured or nursing injuries and not at 100%? This will only get worse going forward.

I love Champ. I hope we can build around him and use him for another 2-3 years, but I'm afraid that he's occupying too much of our salary cap, and think that he still has some trade value.

I'm not terribly impassioned in trading him, but we've got a lot of work to do, and a couple of extra good draft picks (if they're available) "I think" would do more good than another 2 years of having Champ around at full-speed.

I didn't say "build around" Champ, I said keep him and continue building rather than trying to use him as a coupon to buy other players - that's like going to Costco, you come out with an empty wallet and 12 years worth of peanut butter. Peanut butter rocks, but I'd like to mix in some tri-tip once in a while. Keep the crisp new $50 and spend the tens and twenties on stuff you really need.

turftoad
10-21-2008, 11:32 AM
Trading Champ is not the answer. Hell, the guy eliminates half the field, teams don't even throw his direction.
Besides that, he is on the downside of his career. Other teams know that alos.
That said, what do we get for him. A second rounder??? Not worth it at this point IMO.

I don't know what the answer is. We're screwed this year. We'll have to learn to grin and bear it.
Next years draft and FA is going to be interesting.

Last year FA Madiu Williams and Eric Coleman would have looked good in a Bronco uni this year as would have J. Vilma.

Those three themselves would have made a diff on this team.

McCree, Manuel, Lowrey, Niko and even Boss haven't.

eessydo
10-21-2008, 12:02 PM
This guy was lost last night. Easily the worst performance by a safety league-wide this year.

Are we really that bad of a defense that this is the best backup we could muster?

Where's John Lynch when you need him........oh laughing his ass off.

Mike
10-21-2008, 12:07 PM
This guy was lost last night. Easily the worst performance by a safety league-wide this year.

Are we really that bad of a defense that this is the best backup we could muster?

Where's John Lynch when you need him........oh laughing his ass off.

I disagree. He is young and inexperienced. Like I said in another thread, his instincts had him in the right spot often...he just didn't finish. He was awful, but given time and experience he might be a player.

I am not saying the Denver shouldn't draft safety or that he is the answer. I just thought that his instincts were good and he should be given time before throwing him out. What's the worst that can happen...Denver's defense become the laughing stock of the NFL?? Already there.

jrelway
10-21-2008, 12:31 PM
Lowry sucks. theres a reason why tennessee got rid of his ass. mugs a scrub, plain and simple.

turftoad
10-21-2008, 12:54 PM
I disagree. He is young and inexperienced. Like I said in another thread, his instincts had him in the right spot often...he just didn't finish. He was awful, but given time and experience he might be a player.

I am not saying the Denver shouldn't draft safety or that he is the answer. I just thought that his instincts were good and he should be given time before throwing him out. What's the worst that can happen...Denver's defense become the laughing stock of the NFL?? Already there.

Lowrey started 10 games and played in the rest for the Titans last year. That should be plenty of experience to see if he has what it takes or not.

If he was decent they would have kept him.

Lonestar
10-21-2008, 12:55 PM
I cant count on both hands how many tackles he missed alone.....Lowry sucks

His first game and still learning whatever the system dejour is...

he was second on the team in tackles.. 7 outright and 5 assisted..
only DJ was better with 10-6 and they might have been on a few few of them together..

One play Lowry was taken out of the play by Champ who was blocked out of the play by a WR.

not sure what your looking for..


http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29630&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=REG7

IN most cases he was covering center field and having to come up to make the tackle.. manual had 5-0

webster 3-3 that is a joke..

OF course right now our Defense is a joke..

Mike
10-21-2008, 12:55 PM
Lowrey started 10 games and played in the rest for the Titans last year. That should be plenty of experience to see if he has what it takes or not.

If he was decent they would have kept him.

I didn't realize that. I was thinking he was a rookie.

Rex
10-21-2008, 12:57 PM
Lowry sucks. theres a reason why tennessee got rid of his ass. mugs a scrub, plain and simple.

Truer words not spoken on this forum all day.

Lonestar
10-21-2008, 01:06 PM
Well until we get someone better I think he is a keeper.. we all know that mcreee is not the answer.. and I think manual is a lost cause also.. Get eh rookie in their with Lowery and bite the bullet the rest of the year to see if they are worth keeping if not start from scratch next year..

Maybe John Lynch can be brought in to coach these guys into something worth keeping..

dogfish
10-21-2008, 01:21 PM
There are just too many holes for Champ to fill 'em. Yes, he was pretty much shutting down Moss, which is great, but in the mean-time Sammie Morris had something like 138 yards. . .in the 1st half.




so we get rid of champ and then have twice as many holes, and a lot less talent to fill them? i'm definitely not on board with that line of thinking. . . .

NightTrainLayne
10-21-2008, 01:26 PM
so we get rid of champ and then have twice as many holes, and a lot less talent to fill them? i'm definitely not on board with that line of thinking. . . .

Fine, but surely you can agree that we need a top to bottom retooling of this defense. Start somewhere. Do something.

dogfish
10-21-2008, 01:31 PM
Fine, but surely you can agree that we need a top to bottom retooling of this defense. Start somewhere. Do something.

no question-- i can't imagine you'd possibly find anyone that didn't feel that way. . .

LRtagger
10-21-2008, 01:40 PM
The only teams that are going to be interested in Champ are teams that are one player away from being elite. We might see offers from the top teams in the league which means a late first or second rounder which would inevitably be a bust the way this HO scouts defense.

The only way I would want to trade Champ would be for a young elite DLman and no one is dumb enough to make that trade.

slim
10-21-2008, 01:42 PM
I can't believe what I am hearing from some of you Lowry sucked out loud last night. His performance was an epic failure.

NameUsedBefore
10-21-2008, 01:45 PM
Lowry was awful.

Oh and Champ was owning Moss for the time he was in-game. The guy still has it.

GEM
10-21-2008, 02:15 PM
The only teams that are going to be interested in Champ are teams that are one player away from being elite. We might see offers from the top teams in the league which means a late first or second rounder which would inevitably be a bust the way this HO scouts defense.

The only way I would want to trade Champ would be for a young elite DLman and no one is dumb enough to make that trade.

Dallas would love to have Champ right about now.

GEM
10-21-2008, 02:16 PM
Lowry was awful.

Oh and Champ was owning Moss for the time he was in-game. The guy still has it.

It was nice to see a team finally at least testing Champ....it didn't work out so well for them, but at least they tried. It reminded me why I've always thought so highly of Champ.

LRtagger
10-21-2008, 02:34 PM
Dallas would love to have Champ right about now.

That is the first team that came to mind, but what are they going to give us?

A high 20's pick so we can draft some bust CB or DLman?

I would be inclined to trade Champ for DeMarcus Ware, but no way they give up their franchise sack monster. Plus Slowik would ruin him here just like he has Champ.

If they offered us their first and second, I would do it. We could trade away both of our firsts to move up into the top 10 and get a real impact guy on D. One of the two LBs or Mays. Then it would be worth it IMO. But the way this FO evaluates defensive talent, I think its a crapshoot if we are picking late in the first after the "sure thing" guys are gone.

NameUsedBefore
10-21-2008, 03:49 PM
I don't get this talk of trading Champ. He's a sure-thing right now. You trade for these d-linemen who come and go as far as production and you're just looking to shoot yourself in the face. Champ has longevity for sure; he's still a rock at corner. No need to panic and start shipping off our best player; you're just trading one glaring hole for another with the risk that you'll just end up with both.

Lonestar
10-21-2008, 04:04 PM
I don't get this talk of trading Champ. He's a sure-thing right now. You trade for these d-linemen who come and go as far as production and you're just looking to shoot yourself in the face. Champ has longevity for sure; he's still a rock at corner. No need to panic and start shipping off our best player; you're just trading one glaring hole for another with the risk that you'll just end up with both.


I agree he can play for almost ever.. Rmember that his bud in WAS Darrell Green played well into his 40's

What he may lose in speed he makes up for in smarts.

We do however need some help with his HUGE salary cap number.. IMO

jrelway
10-21-2008, 04:11 PM
we cannot trade a guy like champ. the man tackles better than our whole team. has half of the field on lockdown. he's a leader and isnt too injury prone for all the work he puts in. I wanna see Champ retire as a bronco and i hope he re-does his contract. Now dre bly on the other hand.....

dogfish
10-21-2008, 04:12 PM
I agree he can play for almost ever.. Rmember that his bud in WAS Darrell Green played well into his 40's

What he may lose in speed he makes up for in smarts.

We do however need some help with his HUGE salary cap number.. IMO

yep. . . there's even a chance that he could switch to free safety later in his career. . . yes, he's undersized for the position and isn't going to take on a lot of blockers at the point of attack, but we all know he's a damn good open field tackler (a hell of a lot better than any of the BUMS we have playing safety right now!), and his coverage skills and instincts need no explanation. . . rod woodson had some damn good years at FS, and aneas williams was pretty effective there the last few years of his career. . . right now champ is very much still in his prime, and he has plenty of productive years left. . .

Dreadnought
10-22-2008, 07:05 AM
yep. . . there's even a chance that he could switch to free safety later in his career. . . yes, he's undersized for the position and isn't going to take on a lot of blockers at the point of attack, but we all know he's a damn good open field tackler (a hell of a lot better than any of the BUMS we have playing safety right now!), and his coverage skills and instincts need no explanation. . . rod woodson had some damn good years at FS, and aneas williams was pretty effective there the last few years of his career. . . right now champ is very much still in his prime, and he has plenty of productive years left. . .

We could have signed a stumblebum from Skid Row who would have contributed as much as Lowry did Monday night. Hell, I probably could have, and I'd do it cheap

Our safeties are a total embarrasment. How any of these jokers supposedly "beat out" Lynch is a total mystery.

Lonestar
10-22-2008, 11:00 AM
While I was not completely happy with him He was second in tackles in the game.. Seemed to be in position more that mcree ever was and while he attempted a couple he at least touched the ball carrier..

Bring Lynch in to teach him the proper way to make the stop.. if he does not improve by years end draft one on day one.. or in the third round on day two..

Dreadnought
10-22-2008, 11:02 AM
While I was not completely happy with him He was second in tackles in the game.. Seemed to be in position more that mcree ever was and while he attempted a couple he at least touched the ball carrier..

Bring Lynch in to teach him the proper way to make the stop.. if he does not improve by years end draft one on day one.. or in the third round on day two..

To say that someone is a better safety than McRee is definitly to kill 'em by faint praise :lol: