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bigtimebronco
04-25-2011, 08:50 PM
I think we may have more pieces i place than people may think. For instance, Fox said he's moving Ayers and Doom to DE, which will improve our play on the edge leaps and bounds, and I feel there, Ayers will be able to live up to his first round potential with some solid coaching. Now, with the interior of the D line most likely being addressed in the draft with the selection of a guy like Marcell Dareus and Stephen Paea or Marvin Austin, we could have a pretty dominant defensive line. Our secondary is much better than the stats would indicate, however because of the poor defensive line play, it didn't show. Many fans dont understand (and I don't blame them for it) is that the D line plays an essential role in the success of a secondary. Even an elite secondary will get burned all day long without the presence of a pass rush to create pressure on the quarterback. Even the best defensive backs in the league can only cover a reciever for a short amount of time, so if these recievers are given time to get open and the quarterback is given time to make his reads and find the open guy. The best defenses all have dominant defensive lines. You could have Champ, Nnamdi, Revis, Polamalu and Reed covering your recievers, but without a good pass rush, they can't produce.


With Champ, SydQuan, Perrish, Dawk, Hill, and some other guys in our secondary, we could be pretty good. Of course, Dawk and Champ are getting up there in age, that also needs to be taken into consideration during the draft, but we have some pretty servicable linebackers, some potential at the DE position, that was not utilized properly the past couple of years, so I feel that with Fox's defensive expertise, we could see a turnaround on D faster than some may anticipate.
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broncobryce
04-25-2011, 09:10 PM
Optimism doesn't go over very well in these parts.

TXBRONC
04-25-2011, 09:25 PM
I think if Denver nails it on getting help for the interior that will go a long, long way to improving the defense.

Fan in Exile
04-25-2011, 09:37 PM
I think you're right, but I also think that you didn't address the linebackers. I think we need at least one more starter, and maybe two depending on how Mays pans out. Although I think he could be good.

Lonestar
04-25-2011, 10:00 PM
I think we may have more pieces i place than people may think. For instance, Fox said he's moving Ayers and Doom to DE, which will improve our play on the edge leaps and bounds, and I feel there, Ayers will be able to live up to his first round potential with some solid coaching. Now, with the interior of the D line most likely being addressed in the draft with the selection of a guy like Marcell Dareus and Stephen Paea or Marvin Austin, we could have a pretty dominant defensive line. Our secondary is much better than the stats would indicate, however because of the poor defensive line play, it didn't show. Many fans dont understand (and I don't blame them for it) is that the D line plays an essential role in the success of a secondary. Even an elite secondary will get burned all day long without the presence of a pass rush to create pressure on the quarterback. Even the best defensive backs in the league can only cover a reciever for a short amount of time, so if these recievers are given time to get open and the quarterback is given time to make his reads and find the open guy. The best defenses all have dominant defensive lines. You could have Champ, Nnamdi, Revis, Polamalu and Reed covering your recievers, but without a good pass rush, they can't produce.


With Champ, SydQuan, Perrish, Dawk, Hill, and some other guys in our secondary, we could be pretty good. Of course, Dawk and Champ are getting up there in age, that also needs to be taken into consideration during the draft, but we have some pretty servicable linebackers, some potential at the DE position, that was not utilized properly the past couple of years, so I feel that with Fox's defensive expertise, we could see a turnaround on D faster than some may anticipate.
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a couple of "players" on the DL will make a huge difference long term. easily place us in the middle of the pack. it is from there that will be hard. it would have been
60 yards less per game to be #16.
50 to crack the top twenty.
70 TO BE TOP 10.
120 per game to become #1.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-25-2011, 10:14 PM
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u16/meghanpilot/spicoli.jpg

cuzz4169
04-26-2011, 06:38 AM
I disagree with people when they say you cant cover all day. yes in a zone coverege eventually the wr will find a spot in the defense. man to man is completly different.

TXBRONC
04-26-2011, 06:42 AM
I disagree with people when they say you cant cover all day. yes in a zone coverege eventually the wr will find a spot in the defense. man to man is completly different.

I disagree. Eventually you'll have break downs with man coverage. I've watched happen repeatedly over the last two seasons. You give any good quarterback all day to throw and he'll find the open receiver it wont matter what kind of coverage you're in.

cuzz4169
04-26-2011, 06:48 AM
yea happens when you have an avg cb covering. how often does it happen to your good CB's? eventually the line is gonna break down and you will get pressure. CB in nfl can cover man to man for 6 sec. atleast. yes some timing routes are tough to stop. but on certain routes and plays cb's can run all day with wrs.

Northman
04-26-2011, 07:02 AM
yea happens when you have an avg cb covering. how often does it happen to your good CB's? eventually the line is gonna break down and you will get pressure. CB in nfl can cover man to man for 6 sec. atleast. yes some timing routes are tough to stop. but on certain routes and plays cb's can run all day with wrs.

Even if you have some success you wont win championships that way. In the end the better QBs will pick you apart without defensive pressure up front.

Dean
04-26-2011, 07:02 AM
I disagree with people when they say you cant cover all day. yes in a zone coverege eventually the wr will find a spot in the defense. man to man is completly different.

Would you care to explain how you cover double, triple, and quadruple moves. After all the receiver is not going to run his original route out of bounds or out of the QB's range.

The routes that you will be seeing will not likely be what you saw on video and prepared for. So if the receiver is nearly an equal athlete as the D-back, he gains a big edge or at least that's the way I remember it.

Have you played corner?

cuzz4169
04-26-2011, 07:20 AM
lol no ive never played football. how much time do you think a qb has, even with the worse pass rush? 6, 7, 8 secs at most. triple moves hahaha. i will take champ man to man all day on any wr in the nfl. how many games this year did you see our wrs not get open in man coverage? the second kc game against oakland our wr were locked down. no one could get open and eventualy the pass rush got there. if wrs are getting open 4-5 secs into the pass route i dont give a shit what type of pass rush you got. good cbs can run man to man all day with a wr period. champ does its as does many others. when champ gets beat normally its a zone coverage or an unbelievable pass and catch or one of those tough timing routes.

cuzz4169
04-26-2011, 07:22 AM
and im not saying you win championships like that. im saying i dont agree when people say cbs cant cover wrs all day. bc its not just cbs in coverage.

TXBRONC
04-26-2011, 07:38 AM
and im not saying you win championships like that. im saying i dont agree when people say cbs cant cover wrs all day. bc its not just cbs in coverage.

Agreed there is more than just cornerbacks in coverage but that still doesn't prevent secondaries from breaking down if the quarterback has all day to throw the ball.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 08:31 AM
Agreed there is more than just cornerbacks in coverage but that still doesn't prevent secondaries from breaking down if the quarterback has all day to throw the ball.

Making sense apparently is not the way to go.
:lol:

MileHighCrew
04-26-2011, 08:40 AM
I wear pretty thick orange glasses and I will admit it, but I don't share the same feelings for our D. Ayers has to prove it first. Our LBs need to be upgraded bad. DJ is the best one and I hate to say it but I think he is over valued by Broncos fans. He is good but that is all. Woody is great on ST but that is where he should stay and Mays is a classic fans pick, big motor guy who makes the fans love him but too many mistakes for a good D coach. The secondary needs youth. Champ is great IMO and Cox has a chance to bevery good, Squid might be the steal of the draft last year but Dawk is too old and can't cover anyone with speed and Hill disappears too often.

I hope the Broncos are closer than I think but IMO they need to change 7-9 of the 11 starters. Champ Cox and Doom (who does struggle against the run) and maybe DJ are the only got to keep em players.

Mike
04-26-2011, 08:41 AM
Would Peterson/Paea be a better combination than Dareus/??

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 08:50 AM
Would Peterson/Paea be a better combination than Dareus/??

How about Dareus/Paea. Peterson might not be a CB for long, many see him eventually as a safety.

I like a Dareus/Paea/Rahim Moore for the 1st 3 picks. Then look at the best LB or Oline (to replace Harris or move Beadles to RT and replace him on the Oline) in the 3rd round. Then in the 6th and 7th pick up back up RB's, TE's, and ST players.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 09:17 AM
How about Dareus/Paea. Peterson might not be a CB for long, many see him eventually as a safety.

I like a Dareus/Paea/Rahim Moore for the 1st 3 picks. Then look at the best LB or Oline (to replace Harris or move Beadles to RT and replace him on the Oline) in the 3rd round. Then in the 6th and 7th pick up back up RB's, TE's, and ST players.

Stay away from Moore. Huge bust. Played like crap all last season, didnt do well at any combine or pro day, and is highly overrated. Bad interviews too.
This years class of safties is putrid. The best FS's in this class are CBs.
Aaron Williams and Ras I Dowling are both projected to be better FSs in the NFL. Shareece Wright is also being looked at as a FS. I would take any one of them ahead of any of the listed FSs in this class.
FA will start at some point now and there are a TON of solid, pro bowl calibur safties. Just get one there. Roman Harper. Dawan Landry, Eric Weddle etc.
Again, a good front 7 or even a good front 4 makes a secondary look golden.
I like your idea though. Get DTs and then get more DTs.

TXBRONC
04-26-2011, 09:19 AM
How about Dareus/Paea. Peterson might not be a CB for long, many see him eventually as a safety.

I like a Dareus/Paea/Rahim Moore for the 1st 3 picks. Then look at the best LB or Oline (to replace Harris or move Beadles to RT and replace him on the Oline) in the 3rd round. Then in the 6th and 7th pick up back up RB's, TE's, and ST players.

I like that trio. I was just saying yesterday that I would like to see Denver draft Dareus and Paea. Moore wouldn't be a bad pick either. I'm also not opposed to drafting an offensive tackle. Personally I think it would be better to leave Beadles at guard but that's just me.

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 09:22 AM
Stay away from Moore. Huge bust. Played like crap all last season, didnt do well at any combine or pro day, and is highly overrated. Bad interviews too.
This years class of safties is putrid. The best FS's in this class are CBs.
Aaron Williams and Ras I Dowling are both projected to be better FSs in the NFL. Shareece Wright is also being looked at as a FS. I would take any one of them ahead of any of the listed FSs in this class.
FA will start at some point now and there are a TON of solid, pro bowl calibur safties. Just get one there. Roman Harper. Dawan Landry, Eric Weddle etc.
Again, a good front 7 or even a good front 4 makes a secondary look golden.
I like your idea though. Get DTs and then get more DTs.

Good point, we can address S through FA, might be able to do the same with LB.

We also still don't know what will happen with Cox, he might not be available either, so another CB might be needed in this draft.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 09:27 AM
Good point, we can address S through FA, might be able to do the same with LB.

We also still don't know what will happen with Cox, he might not be available either, so another CB might be needed in this draft.

Then take Davon House or Shareece Wright with that 3rd rounder to address the CB spot. And DEN still has Goody.
A monster pass rush, hits, knock downs and pressure will take care of any secondary issues for this team. DEN is more than adequate in the secondary right now, if it could generate more than the current sigh with the front 7.

TXBRONC
04-26-2011, 09:30 AM
Would Peterson/Paea be a better combination than Dareus/??

Imo no.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 09:34 AM
Imo no.

I would just LOVE for DEN to grab in FA,
Roman Harper SS/FS
James Anderson SLB
Leaders who solidify those positions.

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 09:45 AM
Looking at who is one the roster at DT right now indicates that we need at least 2 DT's (hopefully in the 1st 2 rounds).

Ronnie Fields
Louis Leonard
Ryan McBean
Marcus Thomas
Mitch Unrein
Kevin Vickerson

I can see Thomas and Vickerson making the team, Fields maybe. Dareus and Paea would make our DT's way better than they are today.

rcsodak
04-26-2011, 09:55 AM
Would Peterson/Paea be a better combination than Dareus/??
CBs can be avoided by the offense. Stud DTs not so much.

Ravage!!!
04-26-2011, 10:06 AM
How about Dareus/Paea. Peterson might not be a CB for long, many see him eventually as a safety.

I like a Dareus/Paea/Rahim Moore for the 1st 3 picks. Then look at the best LB or Oline (to replace Harris or move Beadles to RT and replace him on the Oline) in the 3rd round. Then in the 6th and 7th pick up back up RB's, TE's, and ST players.

I see what you are saying, but the fact that Peterson would be moved to safety is just that much more of a reason to take him. We need safety about as much as anything.

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 10:11 AM
I see what you are saying, but the fact that Peterson would be moved to safety is just that much more of a reason to take him. We need safety about as much as anything.

Not the same value as a stud DT.

Mike
04-26-2011, 10:11 AM
CBs can be avoided by the offense. Stud DTs not so much.

Stud DTs is the key, IMO. I wouldn't be upset with Dareus at all and believe teams are built in the trenches...I just worry that the best of the DTs this year are questionable.

And to be honest, the depth behind Bailey is extremely suspect. I think Peterson is the BPA and with our defense it is hard to find any position that doesn't need use an upgrade.

I think I would rather take an elite defensive player and combine him with a second round talent than take a good defensive player and combine him with a second round talent.

How much difference is there in the talent level between Dareus and Paea?

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 10:17 AM
Stud DTs is the key, IMO. I wouldn't be upset with Dareus at all and believe teams are built in the trenches...I just worry that the best of the DTs this year are questionable.

And to be honest, the depth behind Bailey is extremely suspect. I think Peterson is the BPA and with our defense it is hard to find any position that doesn't need use an upgrade.

I think I would rather take an elite defensive player and combine him with a second round talent than take a good defensive player and combine him with a second round talent.

How much difference is there in the talent level between Dareus and Paea?

I have watched Paea, and he is pretty good. But I have seen Dareus take over games against elite competition (especially in the National Title game against Texas). He is a monster. I fully expect him to be a Haloti Ngata type of player. Fairley is a beast as well, but has really dropped (from people considering him the #1 pick, to maybe not being a top 10 pick) since the combine. I expect that teams aren't liking his interviews or maybe something on tape, but Dareus has just been steadily climbing.

MileHighCrew
04-26-2011, 10:23 AM
Looking at who is one the roster at DT right now indicates that we need at least 2 DT's (hopefully in the 1st 2 rounds).

Ronnie Fields
Louis Leonard
Ryan McBean
Marcus Thomas
Mitch Unrein
Kevin Vickerson

I can see Thomas and Vickerson making the team, Fields maybe. Dareus and Paea would make our DT's way better than they are today.

Thomas and Vickerson are the only ones that should be in the NFL. What a sad group. Looking at this, there is no other way to go with the #2 pick

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 10:23 AM
I'd take a chance on either of the NC boys. Searcy and Williams. Got to see A LOT of NC football this year and both of them could be sleepers.

It's actually scary to think of what NC could have accomplished defensively had the agent scandal not occurred.

DT - Marvin Austin
DE - Robert Quinn
ILB - Quan Sturdivant
OLB - Bruce Carter
CB - Kendric Burney
SS - Searcy
FS - Williams

rcsodak
04-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Stud DTs is the key, IMO. I wouldn't be upset with Dareus at all and believe teams are built in the trenches...I just worry that the best of the DTs this year are questionable.

And to be honest, the depth behind Bailey is extremely suspect. I think Peterson is the BPA and with our defense it is hard to find any position that doesn't need use an upgrade.

I think I would rather take an elite defensive player and combine him with a second round talent than take a good defensive player and combine him with a second round talent.

How much difference is there in the talent level between Dareus and Paea?

About as much difference as champ vs sydquan.

Suh>Dareus>Mccoy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paea.

Questions?


:lol:

rcsodak
04-26-2011, 10:34 AM
Sapp is sold on Dareus...as is casserly (fairley not top 10).

Dukes likes Fairley more. THAT ALONE should scare the shit out of a team.

Mike
04-26-2011, 10:37 AM
So what if Carolina wises up and takes Dareus at 1?

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 10:37 AM
Sapp is sold on Dareus...as is casserly (fairley not top 10).

Dukes likes Fairley more. THAT ALONE should scare the shit out of a team.

I said it in another post. Take the top 5 defensive players in this draft and determine who has the biggest bust potential and Fairley wins by a landslide. I'm not gambling the #2 pick on that

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 10:38 AM
So what if Carolina wises up and takes Dareus at 1?

Draft Petersen and take the best 2 DT's available in round 2.

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 10:42 AM
Draft Petersen and take the best 2 DT's available in round 2.
If you can't trade down.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 10:49 AM
If you can't trade down.

I dont know. I still think I'd rather have Petersen at #2 and guys like Austin, Paea, etc in rounds 2 and 3, than have Fairley elsewhere in the top 10. I guess it would depend on what compensation we got. Odds are slim that someone will give up a high #2 this year to move up just a few slots and if it's a team with a pick in the 20's, it just doesnt make any sense at all.

TXBRONC
04-26-2011, 10:52 AM
Stud DTs is the key, IMO. I wouldn't be upset with Dareus at all and believe teams are built in the trenches...I just worry that the best of the DTs this year are questionable.

And to be honest, the depth behind Bailey is extremely suspect. I think Peterson is the BPA and with our defense it is hard to find any position that doesn't need use an upgrade.

I think I would rather take an elite defensive player and combine him with a second round talent than take a good defensive player and combine him with a second round talent.

How much difference is there in the talent level between Dareus and Paea?

Something I heard just recently about Peterson is that is better in man to man coverage but he's not as good at playing off the receiver something that Bailey does very well. I'm also of the understanding Fox prefers his corners to play off of the receiver. If that's the case he may not be a good fit for us.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 10:58 AM
Something I heard just recently about Peterson is that is better in man to man coverage but he's not as good at playing off the receiver something that Bailey does very well. I'm also of the understanding Fox prefers his corners to play off of the receiver. If that's the case he may not be a good fit for us.

Actually...his biggest issue playing off the man is misjudging the speed of the receiver and allowing him to eat up a lot of the cushion. Something that is VERY easily coachable with a variety of recognition techniques.

My biggest issue with him is his zone play where he has a tendency to focus too much on watching the QB and can lose track of a smart receiver.

I'm just still disappointed that A&M didnt pay the $80,000 price tag to the recruiting serive a few years ago to convince him to go to Aggieland.

rcsodak
04-26-2011, 11:05 AM
So what if Carolina wises up and takes Dareus at 1?draft newton and hold him for ransom.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 11:10 AM
draft newton and hold him for ransom.

Or invent the option wishbone wildcat and let defenses decide if they are going to watch Newton or Tebow

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 11:27 AM
I dont know. I still think I'd rather have Petersen at #2 and guys like Austin, Paea, etc in rounds 2 and 3, than have Fairley elsewhere in the top 10. I guess it would depend on what compensation we got. Odds are slim that someone will give up a high #2 this year to move up just a few slots and if it's a team with a pick in the 20's, it just doesnt make any sense at all.

Why not just draft Dareus at #2 and Austin with the 1st 2nd then draft a CB with the later 2nd pick, or the 3rd rounder?
Sorry, but Petersons bust factor is just as high as any player in the top 10.
Not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, and he isnt a ball hawk either.
7 career ints!?!?!?
And theres no way in hell DEN has the #2 player (hypothetically of course) in the draft return punts and kicks. Shoot, he more than likely wouldnt even win the job. Theres a lot of returners on this team.
The secondary isnt the problem, its the front 7, more importantly the front 4.
I expect you of all posters here to know this. C'mon chaz.
Theres just too much 4-3, front 7 talent that is absolutely, a HUGE NEED for this team to pass up on for a guy who might not even start at CB on this team. And yes, he would have stiff competition from the rest of the CBs.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 12:02 PM
Why not just draft Dareus at #2 and Austin with the 1st 2nd then draft a CB with the later 2nd pick, or the 3rd rounder?
Sorry, but Petersons bust factor is just as high as any player in the top 10.
Not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, and he isnt a ball hawk either.
7 career ints!?!?!?
And theres no way in hell DEN has the #2 player (hypothetically of course) in the draft return punts and kicks. Shoot, he more than likely wouldnt even win the job. Theres a lot of returners on this team.
The secondary isnt the problem, its the front 7, more importantly the front 4.
I expect you of all posters here to know this. C'mon chaz.
Theres just too much 4-3, front 7 talent that is absolutely, a HUGE NEED for this team to pass up on for a guy who might not even start at CB on this team. And yes, he would have stiff competition from the rest of the CBs.

I look at a low INT total and see 2 possibilities. A...he doesnt get challenged as much due to his talent and coverage skills and the opportunities arent there, or B...he has hands of stone. Carlos Rogers in Washington is a guy like that. Great corner, but couldnt catch a cold in Canada. Being as he is great on ST...I'll go with the first option.

Add to the fact that the bust factor on top tier DB's is MUCH lower than it is on DT's and I lean a little more toward Petersen. Dont get me wrong...my first choice is to draft Dareus, but my 1b option is to draft Petersen before Fairley. The options at DB drop off significantly after the 1st round, but there should be very good to excellent DT possibilities perhaps even into the 3rd round. 12 of the top 100 players are DT's.

At the end of the day, one guy isnt going to fix the defense, so we need to get the best possible collection of players we can. If I'm given the option of getting 4 solid starters or getting 1 Pro-Bowlers and 3 stop-gap players...I want the 4 starters every day.

My opinion is it's a good problem to have. One way or another, the whole defense needs help. We can focus on the front 7 all day long, but it would be a dire mistake to ignore the secondary

TXBRONC
04-26-2011, 12:12 PM
Well in 2 days, 7 hours, and 47 minutes will know the answer to our first round selection.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 02:01 PM
I look at a low INT total and see 2 possibilities. A...he doesnt get challenged as much due to his talent and coverage skills and the opportunities arent there, or B...he has hands of stone. Carlos Rogers in Washington is a guy like that. Great corner, but couldnt catch a cold in Canada. Being as he is great on ST...I'll go with the first option.

Add to the fact that the bust factor on top tier DB's is MUCH lower than it is on DT's and I lean a little more toward Petersen. Dont get me wrong...my first choice is to draft Dareus, but my 1b option is to draft Petersen before Fairley. The options at DB drop off significantly after the 1st round, but there should be very good to excellent DT possibilities perhaps even into the 3rd round. 12 of the top 100 players are DT's.

At the end of the day, one guy isnt going to fix the defense, so we need to get the best possible collection of players we can. If I'm given the option of getting 4 solid starters or getting 1 Pro-Bowlers and 3 stop-gap players...I want the 4 starters every day.

My opinion is it's a good problem to have. One way or another, the whole defense needs help. We can focus on the front 7 all day long, but it would be a dire mistake to ignore the secondary

1st i disagree that DTs have a higher bust factor than secondary players.
Its much easier to aquire a top flight secondary players in FA than top tier DTs as well. Theres a reason for this. Pro bowl DTs/NTs/DEs are just much more valuable to a defense.
I also think that while your right in that 1 guy isnt going to fix the defense, 1 guy can become the anchor by which a truly dominant defense is built around. And if Champ couldnt be that guy in the past, then theres no way in hell Peterson is. Peterson much like Laron Landry, Josh Barrett and Reggie Nelson have the same skill set. Highly athletic, and because of this, end up being a bit overhyped and overrated. I am not saying Peterson isnt good, but i think for #2, its a huge waste considering that Dareus has done nothing but prove himself to be a dominant force time and time again. Just ask your buddy Colt McCoy or any # of other QBs and O-linemen hes literally knocked the sh!t out of.
I guess comparing team needs, and the available players and the intangibles of those players and having anyone else other than Dareus come out on top is a really tough sell for me.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 02:55 PM
1st i disagree that DTs have a higher bust factor than secondary players.
Its much easier to aquire a top flight secondary players in FA than top tier DTs as well. Theres a reason for this. Pro bowl DTs/NTs/DEs are just much more valuable to a defense.
I also think that while your right in that 1 guy isnt going to fix the defense, 1 guy can become the anchor by which a truly dominant defense is built around. And if Champ couldnt be that guy in the past, then theres no way in hell Peterson is. Peterson much like Laron Landry, Josh Barrett and Reggie Nelson have the same skill set. Highly athletic, and because of this, end up being a bit overhyped and overrated. I am not saying Peterson isnt good, but i think for #2, its a huge waste considering that Dareus has done nothing but prove himself to be a dominant force time and time again. Just ask your buddy Colt McCoy or any # of other QBs and O-linemen hes literally knocked the sh!t out of.
I guess comparing team needs, and the available players and the intangibles of those players and having anyone else other than Dareus come out on top is a really tough sell for me.

First...I did agree that Dareus was my first choice. The whole Petersen issue is only a possibility to me if Carolina takes Dareus. After that, I decide between Fairley and Petersen. I'll admit that Fairley has a higher ceiling, but also recognize that he also has huge potential to be a bust. I'm simply not gambling the number 2 pick on something like that. DT is a need, but we also need DB's. Sure, we can fill the hole with an also-ran that has the ability to hang around the league, but this is a pass first league today and QB's dont always need a full 4 seconds to get the pass off. So, yes, you need someone to collapse a pocket, someone to pressure the QB and you also need someone to cover the receiver. I'm merely looking at the best possible scenario to fix both problems and 10 times out of 10, I'll take an A+ DB and a B DT over a possible A+ DT and C- DB.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 03:00 PM
First...I did agree that Dareus was my first choice. The whole Petersen issue is only a possibility to me if Carolina takes Dareus. After that, I decide between Fairley and Petersen. I'll admit that Fairley has a higher ceiling, but also recognize that he also has huge potential to be a bust. I'm simply not gambling the number 2 pick on something like that. DT is a need, but we also need DB's. Sure, we can fill the hole with an also-ran that has the ability to hang around the league, but this is a pass first league today and QB's dont always need a full 4 seconds to get the pass off. So, yes, you need someone to collapse a pocket, someone to pressure the QB and you also need someone to cover the receiver. I'm merely looking at the best possible scenario to fix both problems and 10 times out of 10, I'll take an A+ DB and a B DT over a possible A+ DT and C- DB.

I agree, Failey has huge bust potential and i have never been a fan.
1 year wonder. Dirty. Plays unconventionally at times. Notoriously takes plays off. (I cant prove it, but thats all i hear from the pundits)
I will admit that if its between Peterson and Fairley, i am gonna have a real problem. I would almost say go with Quinn at that point. Meh.
Fox/Elway better have a nice back up plan for that scenario.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 03:08 PM
I agree, Failey has huge bust potential and i have never been a fan.
1 year wonder. Dirty. Plays unconventionally at times. Notoriously takes plays off. (I cant prove it, but thats all i hear from the pundits)
I will admit that if its between Peterson and Fairley, i am gonna have a real problem. I would almost say go with Quinn at that point. Meh.
Fox/Elway better have a nice back up plan for that scenario.

It's been proven. It requires watching game films (not highlight reels), but the evidence is there.

I like Petersen simply because the guy is a stud. Even if he plays to half of his potential, he can be a Pro-Bowler and let's face it...someone has to cover a receiver once Champ moves to FS. Right now, I dont see an FA (that we have a shot at) or anyone on our roster that can lock a guy up like PP can.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 03:27 PM
It's been proven. It requires watching game films (not highlight reels), but the evidence is there.

I like Petersen simply because the guy is a stud. Even if he plays to half of his potential, he can be a Pro-Bowler and let's face it...someone has to cover a receiver once Champ moves to FS. Right now, I dont see an FA (that we have a shot at) or anyone on our roster that can lock a guy up like PP can.

I'm sorry man, but Peterson has never played in the NFL. So saying hes gonna lock down WRs is a bit of a jump. I would love to have that optimism, but ive just seen waay too much more production from Dareus in his college career to give Peterson any kind of accolades. I like him, but hes still got a bit of the bust factor to contend with. I know you like Dareus better.
Just sayin. DEN had better hope CAR fell in love with Camarcus Newsull, or it could be a long draft.

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm sorry man, but Peterson has never played in the NFL. So saying hes gonna lock down WRs is a bit of a jump. I would love to have that optimism, but ive just seen waay too much more production from Dareus in his college career to give Peterson any kind of accolades. I like him, but hes still got a bit of the bust factor to contend with. I know you like Dareus better.
Just sayin. DEN had better hope CAR fell in love with Camarcus Newsull, or it could be a long draft.

I guess when I refer to PP as a lock-down DB, I base it all I have...his potential based on what he's shown in college.

It will be an intersting day for sure. I know all the Carolina fans and writers are in love with Newton. Bodes well for us, but all the hype makes me wonder. I actually have a gut feeling Carolina will draft Petersen. Not sure why...just do.

SOCALORADO.
04-26-2011, 03:38 PM
I guess when I refer to PP as a lock-down DB, I base it all I have...his potential based on what he's shown in college.

It will be an intersting day for sure. I know all the Carolina fans and writers are in love with Newton. Bodes well for us, but all the hype makes me wonder. I actually have a gut feeling Carolina will draft Petersen. Not sure why...just do.

I think they go Camarcus.
But your right, if they take Dareus, i got a problem.......

BigDaddyBronco
04-26-2011, 03:39 PM
I think they go Camarcus.
But your right, if they take Dareus, i got a problem.......

So does my dog....

CoachChaz
04-26-2011, 10:12 PM
Get your dog ready because Carolina is taking Dareus

Dean
04-27-2011, 07:03 AM
lol no ive never played football. how much time do you think a qb has,

an eternity if you are in coverage


even with the worse pass rush? 6, 7, 8 secs at most. triple moves hahaha.

a head an shoulder fake on the third step, a post cut on the fifth step, and a corner cut 3 steps into the route or the mirror image of this route is common. Any middle to deep route with a come-back or stop.


i will take champ man to man all day on any wr in the nfl. how many games this year did you see our wrs not get open in man coverage? the second kc game against oakland our wr were locked down. no one could get open and eventualy the pass rush got there. if wrs are getting open 4-5 secs into the pass route i dont give a shit what type of pass rush you got. good cbs can run man to man all day with a wr period. champ does

CHAMP RAN A 4.28 40 TIME WHEN HE WAS AT THE COMBINE (in the top 10 all time). That is not exactly a normal match up. He can play off, read the QB's eyes, and have the recovery speed to break on rhe ball.

[/QUOTE]its as does many others. when champ gets beat normally its a zone coverage or an unbelievable pass and catch or one of those tough timing routes.[/QUOTE]

A receiver just has to get isolated in space with the corner and the QB have enough time to see it and throw the ball away from the defender.:coffee:

HORSEPOWER 56
04-27-2011, 08:39 AM
Looking at who is one the roster at DT right now indicates that we need at least 2 DT's (hopefully in the 1st 2 rounds).

Ronnie Fields
Louis Leonard
Ryan McBean
Marcus Thomas
Mitch Unrein
Kevin Vickerson

I can see Thomas and Vickerson making the team, Fields maybe. Dareus and Paea would make our DT's way better than they are today.

Thomas is a FA who has already vowed to test the market (I just don't think he'll be back unless we overpay him). Thomas isn't that good, anyway. He really is a situational rotational guy more than a true starter. This leaves Vickerson as our only DT with 4-3 experience and the only one who isn't camp fodder. Fields is straight garbage.

DT is our biggest need on defense. Hell, D-line as a whole needs a complete revamp. Dumervil is our only player in the front 4 that has proven ANYTHING.

If we spent every draft pick this season on the DL, assuming not every pick will pan out, it would be a good start...

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 08:47 AM
Thomas is a FA who has already vowed to test the market (I just don't think he'll be back unless we overpay him). Thomas isn't that good, anyway. He really is a situational rotational guy more than a true starter. This leaves Vickerson as our only DT with 4-3 experience and the only one who isn't camp fodder. Fields is straight garbage.

DT is our biggest need on defense. Hell, D-line as a whole needs a complete revamp. Dumervil is our only player in the front 4 that has proven ANYTHING.

If we spent every draft pick this season on the DL, assuming not every pick will pan out, it would be a good start...

Not trying to be a smartass, but what have Dareus, Fairley, or anyone else in the draft proven in the NFL?

I wish it were as simple as some like to make it. It's easy to dismiss Ayers because he hasnt been successful in a position he never played before. So automatically, that must mean that if he goes back to his true position...he'll suck there too. How the hell do we know that?

Yes, the DL needs work. But more importantly, the defense needs work. If we can get a good DL prospect or two early in the draft, that's great, but if it comes down to drafting ANYONE that can help the defense as opposed to reaching specifically for DL in a spot where the value isnt there...it's going to be another long season

HORSEPOWER 56
04-27-2011, 09:24 AM
Not trying to be a smartass, but what have Dareus, Fairley, or anyone else in the draft proven in the NFL?

I wish it were as simple as some like to make it. It's easy to dismiss Ayers because he hasnt been successful in a position he never played before. So automatically, that must mean that if he goes back to his true position...he'll suck there too. How the hell do we know that?

Yes, the DL needs work. But more importantly, the defense needs work. If we can get a good DL prospect or two early in the draft, that's great, but if it comes down to drafting ANYONE that can help the defense as opposed to reaching specifically for DL in a spot where the value isnt there...it's going to be another long season

You can defend Ayers for his position change all you want, but rushing the QB is rushing the QB and he couldn't do it either standing up in a conventional 3-4 or with his hand in the dirt when he moved to DE in the Nickel last year.

Maybe he'll get better, but he hasn't even shown "flashes" yet (1.5 sacks in 2 years). He's had one good game in two years (vs Tennessee) where he looked pretty solid vs the run and somehow that one game has people saying he's some kind of run stopping monster because he planted CJ2K hard a couple of times. He's really not any better than any other undersized DE convert OLB on our current roster. Too many fans give him too much credit. He's no more a "run stuffer" than Quinn is a "devastating blocker" even though I've seen that written here, too.

Dareus and Fairley have proven nothing. That's why I think we should draft as many DL players as possible so that we have a better chance of hitting on a few - at least one I'd hope. Maybe they'll bust, maybe they won't but we'll never fix the D-line by ignoring it every year. You as a coach I'm sure realize that everything starts up front.

rcsodak
04-27-2011, 09:27 AM
Well in 2 days, 7 hours, and 47 minutes will know the answer to our first round selection.
.....but who's counting. ;)

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 09:36 AM
You can defend Ayers for his position change all you want, but rushing the QB is rushing the QB and he couldn't do it either standing up in a conventional 3-4 or with his hand in the dirt when he moved to DE in the Nickel last year.

Maybe he'll get better, but he hasn't even shown "flashes" yet (1.5 sacks in 2 years). He's had one good game in two years (vs Tennessee) where he looked pretty solid vs the run and somehow that one game has people saying he's some kind of run stopping monster because he planted CJ2K hard a couple of times. He's really not any better than any other undersized DE convert OLB on our current roster. Too many fans give him too much credit. He's no more a "run stuffer" than Quinn is a "devastating blocker" even though I've seen that written here, too.

Dareus and Fairley have proven nothing. That's why I think we should draft as many DL players as possible so that we have a better chance of hitting on a few - at least one I'd hope. Maybe they'll bust, maybe they won't but we'll never fix the D-line by ignoring it every year. You as a coach I'm sure realize that everything starts up front.

No offense, but I think you are completely minimizing an already small window of opportunity for Ayers to show what he can do. It's inane to expect any young player to have an immediate Pro-Bowl impact...especially one that is learning a new position and battling an injury on a defense that is very weak. i wont say Ayers will be great or even good...but we dont know if he'll be bad either. Just have to wait and see.

Anyway...I agree that nothing happens unless the line is anchored. It's easier to handle that in a school setting, but in the NFL a lot more goes into it. Like I said...if you continually draft based solely on need, you will always be drafting early. So, if your scouting dept. has Dareus rated as a top 3 player and the next DL isnt rated any higher than 10...you wont be drafting a DL at #2 if Dareus goes #1.

None of us know how the Denver staff has players rated or valued, so it's impossible for us to do anything other than speculate. That's why I never post any mock drafts. There are just way too many directions that things could go

turftoad
04-27-2011, 09:48 AM
No offense, but I think you are completely minimizing an already small window of opportunity for Ayers to show what he can do. It's inane to expect any young player to have an immediate Pro-Bowl impact...especially one that is learning a new position and battling an injury on a defense that is very weak. i wont say Ayers will be great or even good...but we dont know if he'll be bad either. Just have to wait and see.

Anyway...I agree that nothing happens unless the line is anchored. It's easier to handle that in a school setting, but in the NFL a lot more goes into it. Like I said...if you continually draft based solely on need, you will always be drafting early. So, if your scouting dept. has Dareus rated as a top 3 player and the next DL isnt rated any higher than 10...you wont be drafting a DL at #2 if Dareus goes #1.

None of us know how the Denver staff has players rated or valued, so it's impossible for us to do anything other than speculate. That's why I never post any mock drafts. There are just way too many directions that things could go

IMO, if the Panthers take Dareus, we will trade out of the #2 spot. Elway has good relations with both Washington and Texas, both of whom have been rumored to want to move up.

It's going to be interesting come Thurs night. :beer:

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 09:54 AM
IMO, if the Panthers take Dareus, we will trade out of the #2 spot. Elway has good relations with both Washington and Texas, both of whom have been rumored to want to move up.

It's going to be interesting come Thurs night. :beer:

Fair enough, but if we move to 10 or 11, who do we target? Only thing we can really do is hope someone falls to us in that spot or else look to trade back again.

turftoad
04-27-2011, 10:04 AM
Fair enough, but if we move to 10 or 11, who do we target? Only thing we can really do is hope someone falls to us in that spot or else look to trade back again.

Not in any exact order but, these guys could help us at #10.

Nick Fairley, DT
Corey Liuget, DT
Robert Quin, DE
Prince Amukamara, CB
J.J. Watt, DE
Aldon Smith, DE
Ryan Kerrigan, DE

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 10:14 AM
Not in any exact order but, these guys could help us at #10.

Nick Fairley, DT
Corey Liuget, DT
Robert Quin, DE
Prince Amukamara, CB
J.J. Watt, DE
Aldon Smith, DE
Ryan Kerrigan, DE

If we are going to reach at 10 or 11, we may as well reach at 2. Just my humble opinion, but I dont think Fairley, Quinn or Amukamara are available at 10/11 and the rest are a reach.

SOCALORADO.
04-27-2011, 10:44 AM
JJ Watt @ #10 !!!!!!!!!!

Ravage!!!
04-27-2011, 10:52 AM
The Panthers are going to take Newton, thats nearly a given and Denver is goign to take Dareus at 2, which is pretty nice.

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 10:56 AM
The Panthers are going to take Newton, thats nearly a given and Denver is goign to take Dareus at 2, which is pretty nice.

I dont know that its as much of a given as we may think. Just my opinion

Ravage!!!
04-27-2011, 11:02 AM
I dont know that its as much of a given as we may think. Just my opinion

I know. But we've always known who the #1 pick is going to be days before the draft, and it appears to be pretty well "known" (for the lack of a better word)that Newton is Carolina's pick.

I'm not going to be shocked if they take Dareus in the least, however. So I guess as far as discussions go, its a LOT more fun to speculate on what Denver will do IF Carolina takes Dareus, since I think we all feel we know (again) what Denver will do if Carolina takes Newton.

I wouldn't be shocked (nor disappointed) if we take the LB with the #2 pick if Dareus is gone.

SOCALORADO.
04-27-2011, 11:09 AM
I know. But we've always known who the #1 pick is going to be days before the draft, and it appears to be pretty well "known" (for the lack of a better word)that Newton is Carolina's pick.

I'm not going to be shocked if they take Dareus in the least, however. So I guess as far as discussions go, its a LOT more fun to speculate on what Denver will do IF Carolina takes Dareus, since I think we all feel we know (again) what Denver will do if Carolina takes Newton.

I wouldn't be shocked (nor disappointed) if we take the LB with the #2 pick if Dareus is gone.

I have only watched Hockey lately and have not watched any E!SPN or NFLN.
Is this really what the concensus is? I saw a little at the gym, but its mute. And they had CAR images and Newton up there. Is this what they are saying? I mean it really makes no sense for CAR to hide their intentions now.

turftoad
04-27-2011, 11:16 AM
I know. But we've always known who the #1 pick is going to be days before the draft, and it appears to be pretty well "known" (for the lack of a better word)that Newton is Carolina's pick.



If it's pretty much of for sure thing, the the team holding the #1 ussually is trying to negotiate a contract with such player. I'm sure the CBA thing has gotten in the way of that but, just sayin.

IMO, Car. could very well take Dareus. Which would suck.

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 11:51 AM
I have only watched Hockey lately and have not watched any E!SPN or NFLN.
Is this really what the concensus is? I saw a little at the gym, but its mute. And they had CAR images and Newton up there. Is this what they are saying? I mean it really makes no sense for CAR to hide their intentions now.

If you listen to local writers, they drafted Newton a month ago. But if you look at what makes sense for the team...I think they take Dareus

topscribe
04-27-2011, 12:06 PM
If you listen to local writers, they drafted Newton a month ago. But if you look at what makes sense for the team...I think they take Dareus

Actually, just about any pick the Panthers make will make sense to me. They
could just about close their eyes and point, and they will fill a position of
need . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
04-27-2011, 12:11 PM
I have only watched Hockey lately and have not watched any E!SPN or NFLN.
Is this really what the concensus is? I saw a little at the gym, but its mute. And they had CAR images and Newton up there. Is this what they are saying? I mean it really makes no sense for CAR to hide their intentions now.

Well, that seems to be the consensus with people in the know. Although we don't know for sure, and as turf mentioned, usually we "know" because the #1 overall pick is signing their choice (or top 2 choices) to contracts... so the mystery is out of the bag. They can' do that this year, because they can't sign the draft picks to a contract, yet, anyway.

Although they can't really say (even if they talked to the very GM that will be sending the pick to the commissioner, they couldn't say they know for sure)...it seems to be pretty confident that Carolina is taking Newton.

But.. again, I sure wouldn't be shocked to see them take Dareus.

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 01:18 PM
I think we have to take the same philosphies into consideration for Carolina as we do for our own team.

Carolina is a team with a lot of needs on both sides of the ball. DT being maybe the #1 or #2 need of theirs. You have a new coach and a new system, so whatever decision you make is going to affect the team and your career in the long haul. So, you take a look at QB. Any way you slice it, every option in the QB class is a developmental project. There are no clear cut players destined for success. With all the pressure that a revamped organization has on them, is it wise to take the risk on a project QB with the #1 pick? I dont think so. In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the QB's went in the top 5 at all. If I were Rivera and the Carolina organization, I go with the safest pick at a position of great need and that would be Dareus. So, if I were a betting man, I would say there is a 70% chance that Carolina goes with Dareus, 20% they go with Petersen and 10% they go with Newton.

In all seriousness...for just a moment, pretend you are a fan of Carolina or a member of the organization. Would you pick Newton #1 overall? I think if they do, they could be destined to a few more years in the cellar if it doesnt pan out. Yes, he could be the next Vick or McNabb...but he could also be the next Vince Young. Just way too risky to spend the #1 pick on a guy like that.

topscribe
04-27-2011, 01:23 PM
I think we have to take the same philosphies into consideration for Carolina as we do for our own team.

Carolina is a team with a lot of needs on both sides of the ball. DT being maybe the #1 or #2 need of theirs. You have a new coach and a new system, so whatever decision you make is going to affect the team and your career in the long haul. So, you take a look at QB. Any way you slice it, every option in the QB class is a developmental project. There are no clear cut players destined for success. With all the pressure that a revamped organization has on them, is it wise to take the risk on a project QB with the #1 pick? I dont think so. In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the QB's went in the top 5 at all. If I were Rivera and the Carolina organization, I go with the safest pick at a position of great need and that would be Dareus. So, if I were a betting man, I would say there is a 70% chance that Carolina goes with Dareus, 20% they go with Petersen and 10% they go with Newton.

In all seriousness...for just a moment, pretend you are a fan of Carolina or a member of the organization. Would you pick Newton #1 overall? I think if they do, they could be destined to a few more years in the cellar if it doesnt pan out. Yes, he could be the next Vick or McNabb...but he could also be the next Vince Young. Just way too risky to spend the #1 pick on a guy like that.

I fear you're right, alas. In my own mind, Dareus is the one player I lust after
for the Broncos. They might not have some terribly sharp knives in the drawer
over there (hence, the jettisoning of Fox), but it's hard to believe they would
be so stupid as to pass over Dareus.

But then, maybe I'm only revealing myself as the stupid one in saying this. *shrugs*

-----

SpringsBroncoFan
04-27-2011, 01:29 PM
If we are going to reach at 10 or 11, we may as well reach at 2. Just my humble opinion, but I dont think Fairley, Quinn or Amukamara are available at 10/11 and the rest are a reach.

I'll probably get flamed, but what about Tyson Smith?

With him, the OL is set for years and if they are content with Austin at 36 they can use the extra pick from trading down for S or LB...

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 01:34 PM
I'll probably get flamed, but what about Tyson Smith?

With him, the OL is set for years and if they are content with Austin at 36 they can use the extra pick from trading down for S or LB...

Only problem there is I really think Dallas will take Smith at #9. I guess I should say that Dallas SHOULD take him at #9. But Jerry Jones loves skill players, so I wont be shocked if he takes Prince instead.

rcsodak
04-27-2011, 01:38 PM
Actually, just about any pick the Panthers make will make sense to me. They could just about close their eyes and point, and they will fill a position of
need . . .

-----
U meant denver, right? Lol

Car is set@ oline. Fine @ dline/lb.
They need all their help on offense skill positions. Especially if they lose ssmith.

rcsodak
04-27-2011, 01:42 PM
Well, that seems to be the consensus with people in the know. Although we don't know for sure, and as turf mentioned, usually we "know" because the #1 overall pick is signing their choice (or top 2 choices) to contracts... so the mystery is out of the bag. They can' do that this year, because they can't sign the draft picks to a contract, yet, anyway.

Although they can't really say (even if they talked to the very GM that will be sending the pick to the commissioner, they couldn't say they know for sure)...it seems to be pretty confident that Carolina is taking Newton.

But.. again, I sure wouldn't be shocked to see them take Dareus.

For all we know, they might take P2 and denver takes miller......

I just hope teams move back into the late 1st to take qb's. That will help ensure more dt's/de's will be available longer.

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 01:47 PM
U meant denver, right? Lol

Car is set@ oline. Fine@ dline/lb.
They need all their help on offense skill positions. Especially if they lose ssmith.

They have a good DE in Johnson (who is a FA) and potential in Brown and Hardy....but at DT, they really have nothing. They're pretty much the team, other than Denver, that needs DT help immensely. Names like Derek Landri, Andre Neblett, Ed Johnson, Tommie Duhart and Corvey Irvin do not strike fear into the minds of too many people.

LaFell and Gettis looked good on a bad offense, so I dont think WR is the top priority either. DT and QB are the biggest needs for Carolina

rcsodak
04-27-2011, 01:55 PM
They have a good DE in Johnson (who is a FA) and potential in Brown and Hardy....but at DT, they really have nothing. They're pretty much the team, other than Denver, that needs DT help immensely. Names like Derek Landri, Andre Neblett, Ed Johnson, Tommie Duhart and Corvey Irvin do not strike fear into the minds of too many people.

LaFell and Gettis looked good on a bad offense, so I dont think WR is the top priority either. DT and QB are the biggest needs for Carolina

Ok. Guess I thought injuries hurt their dline.
Otherwise, we agree. For as sucky bad as their offense was last year, having a defense in the teens is pretty amazing.

CoachChaz
04-27-2011, 02:09 PM
Ok. Guess I thought injuries hurt their dline.
Otherwise, we agree. For as sucky bad as their offense was last year, having a defense in the teens is pretty amazing.

Has a lot to do with the coaching...which just happens to be on our side now

rcsodak
04-27-2011, 05:36 PM
Has a lot to do with the coaching...which just happens to be on our side nowHope you're right, CC.