Should we commit to a 3-4 defense?

[WARHORSE]

BRONCOS GOING 3-4 on DEFENSE?
While this is a new wrinkle, I think with our offense, this is a very good time to transition to the 3-4. Thomas, Crowder can be the DEs. Robertson can play the NT for now since he did it in NY. Doomerville, Winborn, Moss, DJ and the boys can do the standup. This can help generate pass rush, and we can start drafting big LBs like Maulauga to make the transition complete. Not to mention some safeties. Sounds like Shanny might be considering this for the future........make that near future.

Read On:

Now, about that defense.

Yes, the Broncos are 3-0 and scoring points like Air Coryell. Their offense ranks second in the NFL. Everyone except them is amazed. In private, they might even be a little bit amazed.

On the flip side, their defense ranks 28th in points allowed (28 per game) and 30th in yards allowed. Their pass defense ranks 32nd, also known as last. The Saints' Drew Brees passed for more yards (421) than any other NFL quarterback in Week 3.

Generally speaking, teams with defensive rankings like these don't win championships. In fact, Mike Shanahan used to preach the correlation between top-five scoring defenses and Super Bowl champions.

In his team's defense - and it could certainly use one - Shanahan points out it is doing much better against the run (106 yards per game) than it did last year (142.6). After all, if you can stop the run, you can work to improve against the pass. If you can't stop the run, your opponent has no reason to pass.

But it's also worth mentioning that LaDainian Tomlinson and Deuce McAllister were injured when the Chargers and Saints came to town, and that the Broncos took quick leads that required both visitors to switch to comeback mode early. Against comeback mode, the Broncos gave up a lot of ground and a lot of points.

Shanahan again mentioned a new scheme, but it wasn't clear if he was talking about the change at defensive coordinator or the surprising deployment of a 3-4 defense at times Sunday.

For a minute there, I was looking for Barney Chavous, Rubin Carter and Rulon Jones. When an outside linebacker came up to blitz, I thought it might be Tom Jackson.

If Shanahan was referring merely to the change in defensive administrations, it isn't much of an excuse. Bob Slowik basically took over for Jim Bates midway through last season. And it's hard to make the case that during the offseason they can put in a complex passing game - also with a new coordinator - but not a defense.

If it's the 3-4, that's a much more promising problem. For a coach who believes personnel dictates game plans and not the other way around, as Shanahan does, the 3-4 is nothing more than an admission that you have better linebackers than linemen.

This is how the Patriots have generated their pass rush during the Bill Belichick era. It has been six years since a defensive lineman led the Patriots in sacks, and even then Richard Seymour had to share the distinction with linebacker Willie McGinest. For the past five seasons, a linebacker led them every time.

The Broncos frequently deployed upright linebackers on either side of their down linemen when they went 3-4 Sunday. Brees had no trouble negotiating this wrinkle. In fact, the Saints had better luck throwing than running against it. But then, Brees is one of the most capable quarterbacks around and the Broncos were taking their first look at the 3-4 in a game setting.

"Even though it didn't work out, I think it'll pay dividends down the line," Shanahan said Monday.

The disadvantage of a four-man front, as Shanahan pointed out, is its predictability. Except for some exotic zone drops, the opposing offense generally knows that on a pass play, the four linemen are coming. If somebody blitzes to help, he gives away the coverage scheme.

A 3-4 provides more flexibility. The outside 'backers can come, creating a five-man front, or they can drop into coverage and the inside 'backers can come, or any other combination you can think of.

"You've got to feel good about your linebackers to play that," Shanahan said. "Jamie Winborn played exceptionally well against the Raiders and the preseason games when Boss (Bailey) was out, so we do have the luxury now to do some three-man looks, which, maybe in the past, with five linebackers (on the roster), you didn't.

"But we have seven on our team now and we believe it fits some of the things we can do. I'm not going to give you our game plan, but it does give us the ability to change things up a little bit more."

This looks like the best chance the Broncos have to mount some sort of pass rush. For all the changes in scheme and coordinators, their weak link defensively is still up front.

Their first two draft picks of 2007 were supposed to solve this problem. Instead, defensive linemen Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder take turns being inactive on game day and the Broncos have the same defensive ranking that got Bates fired.

Granted, the Chargers and Saints are two of the best offenses in football. The hapless Chiefs should provide considerable statistical relief this week.

Still, when you give up 500 yards of offense to anybody, that's not good.

If it can stay healthy, the Broncos offense will hold up its end this year. The defense is still looking for a way to do the same.

[gobroncsnv]

We really don't have the dlinemen for the classic 3-4 look... Robertson left the Jets because they wanted to run this scheme, not sure Thomas would command 2 blockers on every play. EE might work as a 3-4 DE, Crowder??? I don't see Moss doing this, unless he drops back into a LB mode, seems like there would be quite a learning curve.

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of doubt the 3-4 we ran would work long-term with the folks we now have. LB's are definitely the strength of our front 7, but I think we'd still be looking for a front 3, just as we are now looking for a front 4.

[Fan in Exile]

Robertson doesn't like the 3-4 that's why he left the Jets, so I really doubt that we are headed that way.

[Shazam!]

I'd love the Broncos to play a 3-4 and I've wanted it for years. They just don't have the personnel on DL (AS USUAL) to play it effectively an entire game. They could use it as a wrinkle here and there as said, but IMO that's about it. Even that could be effective.

I thought if Lynch returned it would play like a 3-4 more or less.

[honz]

It's probably just a wrinkle that Shanny and company will keep in the playbook to throw a different look at some teams to keep them off balance. I don't think there is any way we play a 3-4 the majority of the time. We just don't have the personnel to do it.

[ApaOps5]

Robertson doesn't like the 3-4 that's why he left the Jets, so I really doubt that we are headed that way.

One player doesn't dictate a move. But I doubt its going to be a whole scheme shift but more a hybrid.

[Buff]

I know the popular view here is that we don't really have the linemen for a 3-4...

But do we really have the linemen to run a 4-3 effectively either? Any way you slice it the defensive line is a glaring weakness, so what's the difference if you're running a mediocre 4-3 or a mediocre 3-4?

When I first heard Shanahan's news conference, it sounded like they were toying with the 3-4 more as a pass-rush package... But after rewatching the game, the Broncos came out in a 3-4 to start the game, so maybe they plan on running it more often than we think?

[CoachChaz]

When I see Bailey and DJ rushing off the edge, I'll believe it. Until then, just keep it simple and try not to screw up.

[Denver27og]

wish we would of got vilma instead of niko..

[broncofaninfla]

We have the LB's to run it but not the linemen, sure wish we did though.

[shank]

we just suffered a season long setback trying to re-scheme to fit bates' defense, why waste more time getting players to fit a 3-4, which we are too impatient to stick with long enough to make it work like it should?

stick with the 4-3 and let your players do what they do best. i thought that was our whole philosophy this year :confused: trying to make our players fit a scheme killed us last year, why do the same thing again this year?

[Fan in Exile]

One player doesn't dictate a move. But I doubt its going to be a whole scheme shift but more a hybrid.

No, but you don't get a player you know you're going to make unhappy if you have any plans to run a 3-4.

I think people may call it a Hybrid but really I don't think it's going to go beyond a couple of times a game.

[Dean]

About the only resemblence between the Patriots 3-4 and what I saw last Sunday is that both teams had 11 men on the field. Our front three are not two gap linemen and our OLBs are too small for that scheme.

[ApaOps5]

I think they should implement the 1 - 6 - 4 where robertson counts to 5 mississippi and rushes. The rest either blitz with robertson or play pass D.

I have emailed this to Shanny several times with diagrams and tape from Madden. It will work! ;D

[Superchop 7]

I don't care if it's 3-4 or 4-3 or 1-6.

Send 5 guys on every play.

Not 3, not 4, ......5!!!!!!!

Keep playing scared football and you'll stay at the bottom of the rankings.

Get a pair.

[omac]

I think it's more of a hybrid. Our base defense should still be the same, but I guess he wants the defense to work on that 3-4 look to see if they can generate more of a pass rush for obvious passing downs. Although we used a 3-4 formation, I don't recall seeing the blitzing much, just more people covering the middle. Not sure about that, though. If they can develop it so that the opponent won't be sure where the extra defenders will come from, that should be a good thing.

[WARHORSE]

I don't care if it's 3-4 or 4-3 or 1-6.

Send 5 guys on every play.

Not 3, not 4, ......5!!!!!!!

Keep playing scared football and you'll stay at the bottom of the rankings.

Get a pair.

:confused:

You really ought to watch more football.


Of course our team isnt built for the 3-4, but as Buff said, and Im sure the Broncos are learning now, they arent really built for the 4-3 as well. At least not if you cant get pressure on the QB. Im sure the reasoning of coming out and playin a half of defense in the 3-4 is because of this.

If you cant pressure the QB, regardless of the skillset of your linemen along the lines of the scheme youre running, then does it matter?

Of course we picked up Robertson for the 4-3, and drafted accordingly. But look, if you realize youre a team that has personel that doesnt have the skillset to run either scheme with any semblance of effectiveness, then when it comes time to draft, you can go either way.
If we are in transition, and our defense is going to suck the rest of the year, then change to the 3-4 cause its an easier defense to aquire talent for, AND its a more dominant defense on the whole, year in and year out. All you have to do is look at Pittsburg, New England, the Chargers and Dallas to understand that reasoning. In order to run the 4-3 and be dominant, you have to have FOUR, count em, FOUR dominant dlinemen at what they do. Not to mention the backups.

Whether this means the Broncos are going 3-4 now, or come the offseason, I would welcome it if we are to continue being as 'effective' as we have at the rate we've been going. If we get better, fine, stick to the 4-3.

Otherwise, can it and make the transition.:coffee:

[fcspikeit]

I have wanted us to switch to the 3-4 for years now! All you have to do is combine the ranking of the teams who run the 3-4 against the teams that run the 4-3. The 3-4 is has shown time and time again, that it is the better defence..

That being said,

Its about getting your best guys on the field. What since does it make to have a crappy D-lineman out there if you have a better player sitting on the bench? The same could be said in reverse...

For me the question is, are we stronger at LB or DL? The answer to that question should determine what set we use...

The Giants had Tuck a DE playing DT last year, why? Because he was a better player then the guy he replaced.

DJ is always making plays on defence. I believe its because he as a really good athlete. You could stick his hand in the dirt and he would make more plays then anyone we have doing it now JMO

[weazel]

just more grasping at straws, really...

[topscribe]

*sigh*

Shanahan stated that they did not intend to switch full-time to the 3-4, but
to use it occasionally as a change of pace defense. I believe . . . I hope . . .
he realizes they don't have the personnel for a full-time 3-4.

-----

[Tned]

From Scouts Inc. on this subject:



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3604861

AFC West

Denver D Back To Drawing Board
The Denver defense is ranked 30th in yards allowed per game and last in passing yards allowed per game. The Broncos are 3-0 because the offense is the highest-scoring in the league. Obviously, the Broncos can score, but until they find a way to stop teams with more consistency, each game becomes a back-and-forth contest that could turn disastrous with one play.

Time to hit the panic button? No.

Why: The Broncos should stay the course because they have options on defense and the problem is fixable. First of all, look at who they've played -- New Orleans and San Diego, who are both in the top five in passing offense. No one else has played two offenses of this caliber, much less in back-to-back weeks.

The Broncos have an elite CB in Champ Bailey, who can match up with any WR in the game and play solid defense on his side of the field. Most teams don't have a player of this caliber in their secondary and his playmaking ability often forces a QB to look another direction. The other players in the secondary could benefit from an improved pass rush. One reason Denver hasn't had a lot of success in pressuring the QB so far is partly due to its personnel. They don't have an elite pass rusher who can consistently defeat blocks or force double teams to free other players up front.

Broncos defensive coordinator Rick Dennison has recently implemented a new look with a 3-4 alignment. This package can cause a lot of confusion. To run a 3-4, you need two important pieces -- linebackers and a nose tackle. The Broncos are carrying seven LBs, and they already have an experienced NT in Dewayne Robertson, who started in this role for the Jets last season and is strong enough and quick enough to hold up inside. The OLB roles in this scheme help give the pass rush and pass coverage a lot of flexibility with their ability to rush or drop from an outside alignment. Since the Broncos have some depth in this area, they can start incorporating different looks to disrupt blocking schemes and cause confusion for an offense's pass-protection principles. Trying to prepare for a 4-3 or a 3-4 individually is tough enough for an offense, but when a team uses both in the same game, it can be extremely effective. By overloading one side of the formation, they can create mismatches. The Broncos will have the option of rushing five players, four players or three players at any given time with this look.

Once the Broncos' players get a full understanding of their individual roles, they will have a ton of flexibility to attack opposing QBs, which should leave their DBs less exposed in coverage. The key for them will be to getting to the point where they can run this scheme without breakdowns as quickly as possible.

[ApaOps5]

HA Rick Dennison Defensive Coordinator. Nice job scouts

[Tned]

HA Rick Dennison Defensive Coordinator. Nice job scouts

:lol: I didn't even notice that, as I just skimmed it quickly.

[lex]

Going forward, does anyone know if Robertson will be part of the 3-4 package? He left NY because it didnt suit him. But moreover, if he's not in this package in Denver, you kind of wonder whether that conditional draft pick is factoring in.

[ApaOps5]

Going forward, does anyone know if Robertson will be part of the 3-4 package? He left NY because it didnt suit him. But moreover, if he's not in this package in Denver, you kind of wonder whether that conditional draft pick is factoring in.

Thats a good point Lex. You really have posted some decent stuff by the way. Not sure if you have me on ignore here like the Mane but thought I would say it anyway.

Back on track I bet he would be pissed to play 3-4 again, unless maybe it was as a NG instead of a NT.

As for the playing time I wonder if he has been limited to below 65% as it seems he has played a lot these past 3 games.

[lex]

Thats a good point Lex. You really have posted some decent stuff by the way. Not sure if you have me on ignore here like the Mane but thought I would say it anyway.

Back on track I bet he would be pissed to play 3-4 again, unless maybe it was as a NG instead of a NT.

As for the playing time I wonder if he has been limited to below 65% as it seems he has played a lot these past 3 games.

I no longer have you on ignore at OM.

[ApaOps5]

I no longer have you on ignore at OM.

Ah okay well here is to letting bygones be bygones. :beer:

I think TNED is right though. This will be more a hybrid look. But that doesn't sit well with me. Its kind of like the saying Jack of all trades but Master of none. Thats what you get when you mix schemes.

[ktrain]

[QUOTE=WARHORSE;391127or the surprising deployment of a 3-4 defense at times Sunday.[/QUOTE]

Is that what you call that abortion of a defense we played most of the game agaisnt the saints? I've seen alot of 3-4 defense, but I have never seen it implemented with a weak 3 man pass rush and everybody else dropped back in zone coverages......geez

[topscribe]

Ah okay well here is to letting bygones be bygones. :beer:

I think TNED is right though. This will be more a hybrid look. But that doesn't sit well with me. Its kind of like the saying Jack of all trades but Master of none. Thats what you get when you mix schemes.

That might be true in a full-time scheme. But Shanny explained that they
were just giving a different look and that they will probably implement it in
the future as a change of pace. In that case, they can do a lot of different
things they might not do full time.

-----

[deacon]

One other thing to consider: By showing this early the Broncos are forcing teams to game plan for it. This will take away time from thier normal preparations and help in that way.

I know it seems like a small thing but it's not. Every minute spent on something else helps in the long run.

[gobroncsnv]

I think they should implement the 1 - 6 - 4 where robertson counts to 5 mississippi and rushes.

Bummer is, right now our line counts to 20 Mississippi... maybe cutting down some of the Mississippi's would help... :cool:

[omac]

I think it worked once, I believe either a coverage sack or hurry. But later on, Brees adjusted fine.

[jrelway]

Broncos report: Inside slant Sep. 25, 2008
The Sports Xchange
Inside slant · Strategy and personnel · Notes, quotes



When the Denver Broncos' run defense struggled early last year, there weren't many quick fixes. The personnel didn't fit Jim Bates' new scheme, which led to drastic changes during the year.

There isn't that sense of desperate concern this year regarding the passing defense. Denver ranks 32nd in pass defense this season, and one of their three games was against a weak Oakland passing offense.

San Diego's Philip Rivers and New Orleans' Drew Brees threw for almost 800 combined yards the past two games against Denver. This week, the Broncos play Kansas City, so a third straight poor game by the pass defense doesn't seem likely.

But the Broncos know that if they wish to be a contender in the AFC, the pass defense has to be better. But they feel like there are some ways to fix the pass defense without major changes.

"If you get that kind of effort overall, good things are going to happen," Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said. "You have to be alarmed because you gave up so many passing yards but that is something you can work on and get better at."

Shanahan said one of the things that can be fixed in a short time are miscommunications among the defense. The team is also doing some different things schematically under new coordinator Bob Slowik, which has taken some adjustment. Shanahan said he thinks the passing defense will get better in short time.

The Broncos aren't denying the pass defense has been an issue. In back-to-back weeks they jumped out to 21-3 leads, only to be in a tight game at the end. Part of that was because the Broncos' pass defense gave up numerous big plays in each game.

"We've just got to play better," cornerback Champ Bailey said. "We've got to not miss tackles, be in the right places. A few times we missed some assignments (against New Orleans), and that's not like us."

The Broncos also need to generate a better pass rush. They have two sacks in the last two games, even though both teams passed most plays after falling behind 21-3. Defensive end Elvis Dumervil hasn't been as effective playing with a cast on his right hand protecting a broken pinkie, which has hindered the defense.

The Broncos played some snaps against the Saints in a 3-4 defense, which could be a regular feature of the Broncos defense. Shanahan said he thinks the 3-4 can be tough on an offense because it is not as predictable as the pass rush from a 4-3 alignment.

[Lonestar]

Broncos report: Inside slant Sep. 25, 20Shanahan said he thinks the 3-4 can be tough on an offense because it is not as predictable as the pass rush from a 4-3 alignment.

The issue is if you have quality players you can be effective with either the 3-4 or 4-3.. We don't so it becomes smoke and mirrors time.. And frankly I do not see us having the right types of players to play the 3-4 anyway..

Sounds like mikey is throwing the DL under the bus already this year..

Should have Drafted more quality DT ad DEs over the years instead of trying and failing at getting in retreads to fill in before retiring ..

[broncofanatic1987]

It's unlikely that Shanahan will ever switch to a 3-4 defense permanently. It was his preference for the 4-3 that led to the abandonment of the scheme when he took over as the head coach. I think his willingness to use it as a special package is a sign that he has lost confidence in his defense to get the job done in their base 4-3.

The defense will continue to suck. They might improve just enough to not prevent the team from making the playoffs, but they will continue to suck. This is shaping up as another season where the DC is going to be scapegoated and replaced. Shanahan will bring in another DC who will run the 4-3 and maybe they will finally learn how to generate a pass rush(next year).

[lex]

poll to follow

[Buff]

Honestly, who cares? Our personnel sucks, so we could run a 7-2-2 or a 2-2-7 and it wouldn't make any difference.

Just blitz the hell out of them and man up on the outside. Any other strategy has proven ineffective with this bunch.

[Northman]

Absolutely not. Stay with the 4-3 and bring consistent and decent blitz packages schemes week in and week out.

[Skinny]

Honestly, who cares? Our personnel sucks, so we could run a 7-2-2 or a 2-2-7 and it wouldn't make any difference.

Just blitz the hell out of them and man up on the outside. Any other strategy has proven ineffective with this bunch.Absolutely.

Stack the line to stop, er, slow down the run... or throw everything, the locker room sink included, at the QB at make those two, big play, hi-dollar making CBs earn their check making plays.....

As far as commiting to the 3-4, I'm up for anything at this point. Commit to something. We simply don't have the D-line to commit fully and i'm not sure this defense overall including the depth, can make that full commitment to a 3-4. But come the off-season and the draft, if we can find some nice peices to fit that defensive scheme, i welcome the change with open arms.

[TXBRONC]

If they want to change that's fine by me but this isn't time of year to do it because there is no way to get the right personnel up front make it work full time.

[jrelway]

whats the use of running the 3-4 if we sit back in zone all day anyways.

[lex]

Honestly, who cares? Our personnel sucks, so we could run a 7-2-2 or a 2-2-7 and it wouldn't make any difference.

Just blitz the hell out of them and man up on the outside. Any other strategy has proven ineffective with this bunch.

Well, one of the benefits of running the 3-4 is that it gives you greater flexibility in blitzing. Another one is that you 1 fewer DLinemen and if you have better luck acquiring talent at LB...

[SR]

Gotta fix the people before we can fix the defense. There's nothing wrong with our 4-3 if we had the personnel to make it work like it should. But, we keep drafting scrubs and keep picking up the rest of the league's trash, so we're stuck until we can start either a) signing some free agents, b) drafting some talent, or c) make some trades.

Changing the defensive scheme won't make the defense any better. Changing our personnel for more talented, more head strong players will.

[lex]

Gotta fix the people before we can fix the defense. There's nothing wrong with our 4-3 if we had the personnel to make it work like it should. But, we keep drafting scrubs and keep picking up the rest of the league's trash, so we're stuck until we can start either a) signing some free agents, b) drafting some talent, or c) make some trades.

Changing the defensive scheme won't make the defense any better. Changing our personnel for more talented, more head strong players will.

Kvatch! The DC is such a big problem that its obscuring what we need most on defense.

[SR]

The coordinator isn't the problem either. All he is trying to do is make due with what we have. He is trying to use the scheme that best fits the players we have, instead of trying to force our players to play in a scheme they don't fit in. Doing this, though, leaves some players (like Robertson and Moss) playing in positions that they either don't know how to play or are not comfortable playing. Robertson wanted out of New York because he felt he was better suited as a defensive tackle in a 4-3 system, not as a nose tackle in a 3-4 system.

[lex]

The coordinator isn't the problem either. All he is trying to do is make due with what we have. He is trying to use the scheme that best fits the players we have, instead of trying to force our players to play in a scheme they don't fit in. Doing this, though, leaves some players (like Robertson and Moss) playing in positions that they either don't know how to play or are not comfortable playing. Robertson wanted out of New York because he felt he was better suited as a defensive tackle in a 4-3 system, not as a nose tackle in a 3-4 system.

How is he maximizing the talent available to him? He effectively has turned what is one of the better CB tandems (allegedly) into furniture. So far this year Denver has 2 Ints and one of them was by a DT. When he coached at Green Bay, his defense set their franchise record for worst INT total on defense. Before Slowik got his hands on their defense the record low was 13 and there was like a 4 way tie for 13. Under Slowik they had 8 INTs. They shattered the franchise record for the worst # of INTs and this also happens to be one of the oldest franchises in the NFL. And it doesnt stop there. There were several other franchise lows but, again, in Green Bay it was the same thing...it was promises of an aggressive attacking defense only for it to end up with a toothless exhibition. Its foolish to feel good about Slowik. There is nothing out there to support your theory that he is competent in any way. Quite the opposite. Meanwhile, we have what might be one of the best CB tandems (allegedly) in the league and only 2 INTs through 6 games...one of them actually by a CB. Denver allegedly athletic LBs but he turns the back 7 into furniture. Not only that but the guy doesnt have the acumen to put together blitz packages. A lot of teams scheme pass pressure. Slowik is a defensive backs coach who doesnt understand the interplay between showing pressure and confusing the QBs and the OL blocking assignments. His blitz packages are sad and predictable. And when we do get pressure there is an easy dump off for the QB because of his ridiculous cushions. The coverage is too often contra to how he is blitzing. He is very poor and has shown nothing. No one is going to claim we have top 5 talent but we dont have bottom 5 talent. If we had a competent DC, we could expect to be between 10-20 instead of 30.

[SR]

You're blaming the coaches for the poor play. Dry Bly gets toasted all game long. Champ rarely gets thrown to, and to be honest, his interception this year was not an interception and if the instant replay would have been operational at the time, that play would have been over turned and San Diego would have gotten the ball back. So Bly sucks. Our safeties aren't very good in pass coverage at all. Our linebackers suck, except for DJ. Our defensive lineman can't get pressure on the QB. So if our safeties and linebackers suck, and we blitz the bageezus out of the other team, the QB can still get the ball off because our secondary is weak, save Champ. You're blaming the coordinator for the poor play of the players. Over here in reality land, the players playing poorly is what is causing our defense to suffer, not the system and not the DC. If we had the talent, had the players, and had the ability to run the defensive plays we want to run, the coordinator would be getting your praises right now. But, unfortunately, we don't have the talent to put a good defense on the field.

[Broncolingus]

I agree with Buff first that Denver doesn't have the playmakers regardless of the coach/scheme, but in the spirt of the thread, I'd agree with Anubis and stay with the 4-3 with whatever (useless?) blitz packages Slow-lick and Co. come up.

I guess I didn't really say anything that hasn't been said already.

[lex]

You're blaming the coaches for the poor play. Dry Bly gets toasted all game long. Champ rarely gets thrown to, and to be honest, his interception this year was not an interception and if the instant replay would have been operational at the time, that play would have been over turned and San Diego would have gotten the ball back. So Bly sucks. Our safeties aren't very good in pass coverage at all. Our linebackers suck, except for DJ. Our defensive lineman can't get pressure on the QB. So if our safeties and linebackers suck, and we blitz the bageezus out of the other team, the QB can still get the ball off because our secondary is weak, save Champ. You're blaming the coordinator for the poor play of the players. Over here in reality land, the players playing poorly is what is causing our defense to suffer, not the system and not the DC. If we had the talent, had the players, and had the ability to run the defensive plays we want to run, the coordinator would be getting your praises right now. But, unfortunately, we don't have the talent to put a good defense on the field.

Reality land. LOL. Nice try but thats just not going to work. Again, Im not going to claim the defense is top 5 in talent but its not as bad as what it has shown either. The cushions that weve been playing with are not that of an aggressive defense. Theres too many dumpoffs available to the opposing QBs that are obvious. Again, what he is doing with coverage doesnt compliment what he is doing to generate pressure in many cases and much of the time he tries to generate pressure, it lacks effectiveness. And sorry, but blitzing is an X and O maneuver for the most part. I agree that Dre Bly is overrated. I dont like him either but I dont like him because typically he has been a non tackling overaggressive gloryhound. What we have seen of him lately isnt even that.

[SR]

A lot of what's going on with the D has more to do with the players than anything else. Everything you're saying goes right back to that. Our players on defense don't have the ability to anticipate the play or make the appropriate reads to get where they need to be. This is where I feel like Niko would be a better Mike than Webster. He doesn't hit as hard and he's not a real vocal player, but he is smart and he is better positionally than Webster. Hell, at this point I'd rather see Larsen in there at Mike than Webster. We need to yank Bly and start Jack "mofuggin" Williams.

And when I talk about our defensive personnel, I'm talking in gest and am not talking about Champ or DJ.

[Lonestar]

Hey folks PLEASE PLEASE use the enter key from time to time to make your posts readable..

Y'all might actually have something valuable to say but it gets lost in the 800 word paragraph..

I realize you get wrapped up in writing it, but proof it and cut it (enterkey) up a bit..

[DenBronx]

we should have traded for rogers if we were going to stick with a 3-4. they gave up what a 4th rounder to get him? he looks like a beast tonight.

[Broncolingus]

Hey folks PLEASE PLEASE use the enter key from time to time to make your posts readable..

Y'all might actually have something valuable to say but it gets lost in the 800 word paragraph..

I realize you get wrapped up in writing it, but proof it and cut it (enterkey) up a bit..

WhatareyoutalkingaboutIcan'tunderstandthepurposeof yourpost?

(JK, Jr...)

[SR]

Hey folks PLEASE PLEASE use the enter key from time to time to make your posts readable..

Y'all might actually have something valuable to say but it gets lost in the 800 word paragraph..

I realize you get wrapped up in writing it, but proof it and cut it (enterkey) up a bit..

I like my paragraphs. Thank you very much.

[Broncos Mtnman]

How about we just commit to ANY defense?

:coffee:

[Npba900]

Over the next two years Denver needs to bring in Joe Collier as a consultant and gradually switch Denver over to the 3-4. During the off-season, send Slowik to 3-4 clinics so he can learn how to run it. Then thru the Draft and FA over the next two seasons, draft LB's, DT's NT's who fits this scheme. The 3-4 is the only for sure way you can get pressure on the QB. Also, realize there are more athletic/tweener/hybrid Linebackers avail in the draft than there are DE's.

By the way, let Joe Collier have input on defensive personnel decisions in the draft and in FA. Collier can spot the right talent out there to find the personnel that fits a 3-4 better than Shanahan can.

Denver already has half the Line backers needed to run the 3-4. We've got DJ, and Moss, OLB, and of course we'd need to move Dumerville to Inside Linebacker as well, then we can fill in with Webster and Winborn as the other Inside Linebackers. Draft and find FA for the eventual replacements for Webster and Winborn.

As far as the D line goes, start Thomas, Robertson, and Crowder, and draft and sign FA players who fit the 3-4 schemes/system.

Denver could have done this move to the 3-4 over 5 years ago!! and would be much further along.

[CrazyHorse]

I want a hybrid system a like this.
I will call it the 3-3 OU or 3-3 over/under
O-----O-----O
------------------O DE/OLB Moss?
----O---O---O DE/DT Crowder?

[Ziggy]

How about we just commit to ANY defense?

:coffee:

Agreed, but with adjustments made throughout the game to counter what the opposing offenses are doing.

[dogfish]

Over the next two years Denver needs to bring in Joe Collier as a consultant and gradually switch Denver over to the 3-4. During the off-season, send Slowik to 3-4 clinics so he can learn how to run it. Then thru the Draft and FA over the next two seasons, draft LB's, DT's NT's who fits this scheme. The 3-4 is the only for sure way you can get pressure on the QB. Also, realize there are more athletic/tweener/hybrid Linebackers avail in the draft than there are DE's.

By the way, let Joe Collier have input on defensive personnel decisions in the draft and in FA. Collier can spot the right talent out there to find the personnel that fits a 3-4 better than Shanahan can.

Denver already has half the Line backers needed to run the 3-4. We've got DJ, and Moss, OLB, and of course we'd need to move Dumerville to Inside Linebacker as well, then we can fill in with Webster and Winborn as the other Inside Linebackers. Draft and find FA for the eventual replacements for Webster and Winborn.

As far as the D line goes, start Thomas, Robertson, and Crowder, and draft and sign FA players who fit the 3-4 schemes/system.

Denver could have done this move to the 3-4 over 5 years ago!! and would be much further along.


MUCH respect to collier, but bringing in a 76 year old guy that hasn't coached in twenty years isn't the answer to anything. . . . he was great in his day, but that day has long since passed, and you can't go back. . . collier isn't coming back to save the day any more than randy gradishar or karl mecklenburg are. . .

edit: also, the highlighted statement simply isn't true-- if it were, all 32 teams would be running the 3-4! so far this year, the 4-3 philadelphia eagles lead the league in sacks, thanks to jim johnson's blitz schemes more than the talent of their defensive linemen. . . last year, the 4-3 new york giants led the league with essentially the same scheme (admittedly, their elite linemen helped). . . if you said that the 3-4 is a good way to generate pressure, that i would agree with. . .


now, if we want to talk about bringing in a current NFL coach, i'm all for it. . . IMO, the personnel AND the coaching have mostly sucked to this point. . . slowick sucked everywhere else he's been. why would anyone expect him to do better here with low quality personnel? :noidea: but, unfortunately, you can only turn over so much of the defensive roster at a time, where a coach is easy to replace. . . hey, i'm all in favor of putting a DC in charge and actually giving him a chance to turn things around-- just as long as it's a competent coach and not a schmuck with his head stuck up his ass!

as to the original topic of the thread, i say absolutely not! i've got no problem at all with incorporating some 3-4 looks to change things up, possibly create some confusion, give opposing OCs one more thing to plan for. . . but we just don't have the personnel to run it as a base defense-- we don't have the two-gap down linemen, nor do we have even a single player that's proven he can effectively rush the passer from a two-point stance off the edge. . . neither boss nor DJ is a particularly effective pass rusher, and moss and doom have about zero experience dropping into coverage, between them. . . our front seven simply doesn't have the size to play the 3-4 effectively as a fulltime defense. . .

[lex]

I want a hybrid system a like this.
I will call it the 3-3 OU or 3-3 over/under
O-----O-----O
------------------O DE/OLB Moss?
----O---O---O DE/DT Crowder?

Oh! That looks splendid.

[frenchfan]

poll to followI don't know what to answer...

We suck with a 43.
We suck with a 34.

<joke on>
I'll go with a 10 - 1 : put 10 men in the box and let Champ alone covering the field.
The + :
- we put pressure on the QB (or I hope so) with our 10 men front.
- we have a chance to stop the run
- we won't see any difference in our backfield. Indeed, can someone tell me we play with safeties or another CB ??? :confused:
The - :
Hummmm...

Hummmm...

Well... As far as I can thing, I don't see any negatives. Sorry.

:laugh:

But to really be sure we'll get better on D, I really think we should trade for a hitman... :spy: :croc:

:rofl:
<joke off>

[WARHORSE]

Looking at the draft, Id say go three four. There are a number of good LBers and safeties in the draft.

I want some pads poppin when our D is on the field.:salute:

[CrazyHorse]

Oh! That looks splendid.

Why not, our defense can't get much worse.

[OMorange&blue]

I want a hybrid system a like this.
I will call it the 3-3 OU or 3-3 over/under
O-----O-----O
------------------O DE/OLB Moss?
----O---O---O DE/DT Crowder?

They ran this quite a bit against jax in the 2nd quarter. the DE/OLB was bailey, exclusivly, but he was lined up on the line, standing up. The front 3 varied. The 3 lbs were in their natural positions, just shifted a little as shown.

[SR]

The only time I saw Boss Bailey through out the whole game was when he was hurt and the camera was on him.

[Ziggy]

I'm not for bringing in a new D coordinator every year, but Marvin Lewis should be available this offseason. Wasn't he the mastermind of thier defense when they won the Super Bowl? Let's bring in a top flight coordinator and commit to him for 3 or 4 years, along with giving him some say in the kind of defensive players we draft. It's going to take at least 2-3 years to bring the talent on this D up to par.

[Lonestar]

I'm not for bringing in a new D coordinator every year, but Marvin Lewis should be available this offseason. Wasn't he the mastermind of thier defense when they won the Super Bowl? Let's bring in a top flight coordinator and commit to him for 3 or 4 years, along with giving him some say in the kind of defensive players we draft. It's going to take at least 2-3 years to bring the talent on this D up to par.


Hey I'm all for it but I do not see mikey allowing it unless Pat final steps in and forces the issue..

I think he made some noise about it when Bates was brought in but was not firm in his convictions and when the players did not get it or did not want to get it. He allowed mikey to play his hand and get rid of him..

[Ziggy]

The only time I saw Boss Bailey through out the whole game was when he was hurt and the camera was on him.

At least were not seeing him while watching the TE catching passes while he's supposed to be in coverage with them. He's taken out of the play a lot of times because he has TE and RB coverage in pass patterns.

BTW Red, I love your sig. Best on this forum.

[SR]

Thanks. Someone here made it for me, but can't remember who.

[Npba900]

MUCH respect to collier, but bringing in a 76 year old guy that hasn't coached in twenty years isn't the answer to anything. . . . he was great in his day, but that day has long since passed, and you can't go back. . . collier isn't coming back to save the day any more than randy gradishar or karl mecklenburg are. . .

edit: also, the highlighted statement simply isn't true-- if it were, all 32 teams would be running the 3-4! so far this year, the 4-3 philadelphia eagles lead the league in sacks, thanks to jim johnson's blitz schemes more than the talent of their defensive linemen. . . last year, the 4-3 new york giants led the league with essentially the same scheme (admittedly, their elite linemen helped). . . if you said that the 3-4 is a good way to generate pressure, that i would agree with. . .


now, if we want to talk about bringing in a current NFL coach, i'm all for it. . . IMO, the personnel AND the coaching have mostly sucked to this point. . . slowick sucked everywhere else he's been. why would anyone expect him to do better here with low quality personnel? :noidea: but, unfortunately, you can only turn over so much of the defensive roster at a time, where a coach is easy to replace. . . hey, i'm all in favor of putting a DC in charge and actually giving him a chance to turn things around-- just as long as it's a competent coach and not a schmuck with his head stuck up his ass!

as to the original topic of the thread, i say absolutely not! i've got no problem at all with incorporating some 3-4 looks to change things up, possibly create some confusion, give opposing OCs one more thing to plan for. . . but we just don't have the personnel to run it as a base defense-- we don't have the two-gap down linemen, nor do we have even a single player that's proven he can effectively rush the passer from a two-point stance off the edge. . . neither boss nor DJ is a particularly effective pass rusher, and moss and doom have about zero experience dropping into coverage, between them. . . our front seven simply doesn't have the size to play the 3-4 effectively as a fulltime defense. . .

Great points and analysis DogFish. As far as Collier was concerned I thought he was four years younger and 72 years of age vs 76 and I wasn't looking at Denver hiring him full-time. I was looking at Denver hiring Collier in an interim-consultancy basis. Something like Collier comes in the morning and goes over film sessions with Slowik and maybe have film sessions with the Def. Line and Linebackers from 6 am to 2 pm.

Anything Collier is willing to share Defensively is a positive. At the expense of sounding morbid, why should Collier take his knowledge to the grave with him! If Collier believes he has enough energy in the tank, then Shanahan should show some willingness to at least ask Collier to come board in a limited part-time consultancy position.

[TXBRONC]

Great points and analysis DogFish. As far as Collier was concerned I thought he was four years younger and 72 years of age vs 76 and I wasn't looking at Denver hiring him full-time. I was looking at Denver hiring Collier in an interim-consultancy basis. Something like Collier comes in the morning and goes over film sessions with Slowik and maybe have film sessions with the Def. Line and Linebackers from 6 am to 2 pm.

Anything Collier is willing to share Defensively is a positive. At the expense of sounding morbid, why should Collier take his knowledge to the grave with him! If Collier believes he has enough energy in the tank, then Shanahan should show some willingness to at least ask Collier to come board in a limited part-time consultancy position.


Having Collier come in as a consultant is fine but it isn't anything that can be done in the middle of a season.

[TheRecession]

I think so, It seems like Jarvis Moss is better suited to stand up also.

[G_Money]

Um...we just got killed playing a 3-4 against a very average offense. Didn't we?

It might help Moss more, but I dunno that it helps US more. We still don't have even a decent NT, and without one how do you play the 3-4 right? All our LBs are undersized for taking on TEs and OL, our DEs already can't hold the edge and if we take Dumervil off the field to get a better 3-4 DE out there, doesn't that negate whatever gains Moss might make in the pass-rushing business?

It might be brighter for us later I suppose, but right now there ARE no bright spots on D. We're the worst defense in the league. 31st in points (better by ONE POINT than SF) and 32nd in Yards by 200 over the next-closest team. We're 3rd worst in the league against the pass and 2nd worst against the run. When you suck at defense worse than the 49ers, Chiefs, Lions, Bengals...EVERYONE...then I dunno what silver linings there are in that.

Especially with a scheme we are ill-suited to run. And since Slowik can't stick to a scheme for more than a week, what difference does it make? We'll be running the 2-9 in a couple of weeks, just for kicks.

~G

[TheRecession]

Um...we just got killed playing a 3-4 against a very average offense. Didn't we?

It might help Moss more, but I dunno that it helps US more. We still don't have even a decent NT, and without one how do you play the 3-4 right? All our LBs are undersized for taking on TEs and OL, our DEs already can't hold the edge and if we take Dumervil off the field to get a better 3-4 DE out there, doesn't that negate whatever gains Moss might make in the pass-rushing business?

It might be brighter for us later I suppose, but right now there ARE no bright spots on D. We're the worst defense in the league. 31st in points (better by ONE POINT than SF) and 32nd in Yards by 200 over the next-closest team. We're 3rd worst in the league against the pass and 2nd worst against the run. When you suck at defense worse than the 49ers, Chiefs, Lions, Bengals...EVERYONE...then I dunno what silver linings there are in that.

Especially with a scheme we are ill-suited to run. And since Slowik can't stick to a scheme for more than a week, what difference does it make? We'll be running the 2-9 in a couple of weeks, just for kicks.

~G

See my destroy and rebuild thread for your answers. Im just saying we get sacks in the 3-4, Somethine we never do in the 4-3.

[G_Money]

He was the most-sacked QB in the league before we got there, though. He is slow reading defenses.

I'm glad to get the sacks, but they mostly looked good on paper. It was one of the weakest large-sack performances I've seen in a while.

~G

[TheRecession]

Kansas City was horrible also and threw the ball about as much as he did, We for damn sure did'nt get sacks vs them did we? Hey im just saying i have seen us get zero pressure on other teams with bad or average offensive linemen in the 4-3. This sack stuff is a bright spot to me.

I mean being a Denver fan how often do we see 5 sacks in a game?

[lex]

bump


Just curious to see if anyones feelings on this have changed.

[Timmy!]

The words "defense" and "bright spot" shouldn't even be in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence.

[shank]

no.

[lex]

I think so, It seems like Jarvis Moss is better suited to stand up also.

The problem is though that Slowik is better suited to bend over and grab his ankles. And not even Jarvis Moss standing up can spare us from this.

[Lonestar]

The words "defense" and "bright spot" shouldn't even be in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence.

maybe not even in the same year..2008

[slim]

Jwalk, you are wrong (big surprise).

Move along, son.