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View Full Version : Why Not Gamble on D More?



Ziggy
10-13-2008, 01:16 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm sick and tired of watching the Broncos go to a 3 man rush on passing plays and having the opposing QB sit back and drink a cup of coffee while he waits for his receivers to get open. Here is my question. Why don't the Broncos bring the heat in passing situations more often? Now most critics say that doing so means you're going to give up too many big plays. Well...we already are! This defense is giving up big plays every game. Why not at least take a shot at creating some turnovers and getting the D off the field? What's the worst that could happen? We become the 26th worst D in the NFL, and give up an average of 26 points a game? Well...we already are! If we're going to have a defense that's about as tough as a wet paper bag, let's at least go out swinging. 3 and 4 rushers aren't getting it done. Period. We don't have the Dline talent to win with a 3 and 4 man rush, unless our offense is playing lights out.

Opposing QB's look like hall of famer's against this D. Thier average completion % is 73%. Worst in the NFL. The average QB rating against our D is 105. Why not go with a high risk, high reward scheme, rather than the low risk, no reward scheme that we're currently employing? Yes, we're 4-2. We've also had 4 home games and played 2 cupcake teams on the road. Things will get tougher from here on out. Anyone else want to see some changes?

frenchfan
10-13-2008, 01:23 AM
If trade date is not closed yet, I think we should trade for a (almost) whole D :confused: :rolleyes: :coffee: :laugh:

Drill-N-Fill
10-13-2008, 04:50 AM
I wonder what did Crowder did during the offseason to piss Shany off. I'm surprised a reporter hasn't asked about him to Shany yet.

Not saying he is the answer, but he did have a decent rookie season and was fairly good against the run.

Npba900
10-13-2008, 06:08 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm sick and tired of watching the Broncos go to a 3 man rush on passing plays and having the opposing QB sit back and drink a cup of coffee while he waits for his receivers to get open. Here is my question. Why don't the Broncos bring the heat in passing situations more often? Now most critics say that doing so means you're going to give up too many big plays. Well...we already are! This defense is giving up big plays every game. Why not at least take a shot at creating some turnovers and getting the D off the field? What's the worst that could happen? We become the 26th worst D in the NFL, and give up an average of 26 points a game? Well...we already are! If we're going to have a defense that's about as tough as a wet paper bag, let's at least go out swinging. 3 and 4 rushers aren't getting it done. Period. We don't have the Dline talent to win with a 3 and 4 man rush, unless our offense is playing lights out.

Opposing QB's look like hall of famer's against this D. Thier average completion % is 73%. Worst in the NFL. The average QB rating against our D is 105. Why not go with a high risk, high reward scheme, rather than the low risk, no reward scheme that we're currently employing? Yes, we're 4-2. We've also had 4 home games and played 2 cupcake teams on the road. Things will get tougher from here on out. Anyone else want to see some changes?

Mike Shanahan needs to put his pride and ego aside and give a friendly call to JOE COLLIER, the father and expert of the 3-4 Defense, and hire him as an interim Defensive Coord. consultant. Collier could provide Slowik with some expertise and badly needed strategies on how best to get the most effect with the talent Denver currently has on Defense.

Come on Shanahan what have you got to loose at this stage.

Npba900
10-13-2008, 06:14 AM
I wonder what did Crowder did during the offseason to piss Shany off. I'm surprised a reporter hasn't asked about him to Shany yet.

Not saying he is the answer, but he did have a decent rookie season and was fairly good against the run.

How do I say this.......this is the part of Shanahan I never really cared for. He is the master of playing head games with players. However, I think whatever is going on btwn he and Crowder needs to turn the page and get Crowder out onto the field.

Crowder doesn't need to necessarily start, but this kid needs to be out on the field from the second half of the 3rd Qtr thru the remainder of the game. Hell by this time Ekuban and Engelberger are tired and spend by the time the 4th Qtr rolls around anyway. Why not put Crowders fresh legs out there!!!

Enough with the head games.......GET CROWDER INTO THE GAME.

OMorange&blue
10-13-2008, 07:20 AM
3 words:

Poor safety play.

Traveler
10-13-2008, 08:00 AM
3 words:

Poor safety play.

Agree. Champ indirectly called them out in hi spost game interview when he said the J-Ville TE kept getting behind our safeties.

As for the rest of the defense, what can you say? Dumervil, Petersen, and Moss has chances to sack Garrard but failed. The defense just isn't making palys when the have the opportunity. Until they do, expect the slide to continue.

Den21vsBal19
10-13-2008, 08:22 AM
Hell, why not gamble more...............D's getting burnt as it is :mad:

Broncolingus
10-13-2008, 08:34 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm sick and tired of watching the Broncos go to a 3 man rush on passing plays and having the opposing QB sit back and drink a cup of coffee while he waits for his receivers to get open. Here is my question. Why don't the Broncos bring the heat in passing situations more often? Now most critics say that doing so means you're going to give up too many big plays. Well...we already are! This defense is giving up big plays every game. Why not at least take a shot at creating some turnovers and getting the D off the field? What's the worst that could happen? We become the 26th worst D in the NFL, and give up an average of 26 points a game? Well...we already are! If we're going to have a defense that's about as tough as a wet paper bag, let's at least go out swinging. 3 and 4 rushers aren't getting it done. Period. We don't have the Dline talent to win with a 3 and 4 man rush, unless our offense is playing lights out.

Opposing QB's look like hall of famer's against this D. Thier average completion % is 73%. Worst in the NFL. The average QB rating against our D is 105. Why not go with a high risk, high reward scheme, rather than the low risk, no reward scheme that we're currently employing? Yes, we're 4-2. We've also had 4 home games and played 2 cupcake teams on the road. Things will get tougher from here on out. Anyone else want to see some changes?

Not disagreeing at all, Zig, it just seems that even when Denver rushes four (or in many cases blitz's) the result is the same...

...no pressure on the QB.

Denver’s, lighter, smaller, and allegedly more 'athletic' and 'fast' defensive linemen now regularly stand there play after play UNABLE to disengage the block of the opposing teams offensive lineman or TE, force NO penetration, and can't really even ‘move’ a blocker to disrupt the play.

…I only played a season of college football, but ANYONE who watches football and understands the game knows that is a CLASSIC symptom of players who are PHYSCIALLY OVERMATCHED.

…equally obvious, are the symptoms of the SAME problem in the stats you mentioned above.

Bottom line remains, if Denver wants to win Division Titles and playoff games, they need to get a front four that can pressure the QB (FIRST), and plug running holes (SECOND).

Fix the Defensive Line, and you fix the biggest issue with the Broncos…

honz
10-13-2008, 09:22 AM
We brought quite a few all out blitzes yesterday and they generally were effective...

LRtagger
10-13-2008, 09:43 AM
This is what I have been saying for the past several weeks. Why not take some chances? It's not like we have anything to lose. Sitting back on our heels obviously is not working, so why not get aggresive and try to get in the QBs face. We created two turnovers yesterday and both were on blitzes.

As long as we keep sitting back, even the league's worst QBs are going to continue to complete 75% of their passes and pick us apart.

By the way...did anyone watch Moss in the game at DE? He was pathetic.

OMorange&blue
10-13-2008, 11:07 AM
Moss did fine. On 2 of the 3 1st half pass playes he was in on he got pressure and a LB blew the zone underneath leaving a guy to get some YAK after the catch.

Drill-N-Fill
10-13-2008, 11:09 AM
I'm tired of our LB's being absorbed by RB/Fb's. We need to be more physical. And whats up with the soft zone we are playing now days? I understand that we don't have the talent up front, but an average DC should be able to hide some weakness in defense up front. Too bad we don't have an average DC.

For God's sakes...get a proven defensive mind instead of giving a promotion to these guppies. Someone from Phi, Min, Pitt, Jax.

honz
10-13-2008, 11:14 AM
Moss did fine. On 2 of the 3 1st half pass playes he was in on he got pressure and a LB blew the zone underneath leaving a guy to get some YAK after the catch.

I saw Moss look good and apply pressure on some plays and then I saw him get totally dominated on others. It's not like our other DEs did any better though.

Npba900
10-13-2008, 11:15 AM
Not disagreeing at all, Zig, it just seems that even when Denver rushes four (or in many cases blitz's) the result is the same...

...no pressure on the QB.

Denver’s, lighter, smaller, and allegedly more 'athletic' and 'fast' defensive linemen now regularly stand there play after play UNABLE to disengage the block of the opposing teams offensive lineman or TE, force NO penetration, and can't really even ‘move’ a blocker to disrupt the play.

…I only played a season of college football, but ANYONE who watches football and understands the game knows that is a CLASSIC symptom of players who are PHYSCIALLY OVERMATCHED.

…equally obvious, are the symptoms of the SAME problem in the stats you mentioned above.

Bottom line remains, if Denver wants to win Division Titles and playoff games, they need to get a front four that can pressure the QB (FIRST), and plug running holes (SECOND).

Fix the Defensive Line, and you fix the biggest issue with the Broncos…

Good Points. I have a scenario for you. Let's say you were given full rein over rebuilding Denver's dismal Defense, where would you start?

jrelway
10-13-2008, 11:16 AM
I'm tired of our LB's being absorbed by RB/Fb's. We need to be more physical. And whats up with the soft zone we are playing now days? I understand that we don't have the talent up front, but an average DC should be able to hide some weakness in defense up front. Too bad we don't have an average DC.

For God's sakes...get a proven defensive mind instead of giving a promotion to these guppies. Someone from Phi, Min, Pitt, Jax.

i hear that. just seems to me whenever we play the finesse teams, we can usually hang. But when we play those phsyical teams, we get eaten up and dominated. we need a complete overhaul on defense.

LRtagger
10-13-2008, 11:51 AM
I saw Moss look good and apply pressure on some plays and then I saw him get totally dominated on others. It's not like our other DEs did any better though.

Agreed. I saw him make an impact on 2 or 3 plays, but the rest of the time he was trying to bulldoze the OT and got stood up.

I thought Doom did OK and is still having trouble getting the holding calls to go his way. They called one, but I counted at least 5 plays that he was held.

OMorange&blue
10-13-2008, 02:18 PM
Good Points. I have a scenario for you. Let's say you were given full rein over rebuilding Denver's dismal Defense, where would you start?

If I could only address 1 position it would be safety. Ball hawk with speed and range and for the other guy I would clone Steve Atwater.

Seriously, though, I think if we had 2 very good safetys right now this defense would be much improved.

Next mlb.

next de.

frenchfan
10-14-2008, 12:46 AM
Not disagreeing at all, Zig, it just seems that even when Denver rushes four (or in many cases blitz's) the result is the same...

...no pressure on the QB.

Denver’s, lighter, smaller, and allegedly more 'athletic' and 'fast' defensive linemen now regularly stand there play after play UNABLE to disengage the block of the opposing teams offensive lineman or TE, force NO penetration, and can't really even ‘move’ a blocker to disrupt the play.

…I only played a season of college football, but ANYONE who watches football and understands the game knows that is a CLASSIC symptom of players who are PHYSCIALLY OVERMATCHED.

…equally obvious, are the symptoms of the SAME problem in the stats you mentioned above.

Bottom line remains, if Denver wants to win Division Titles and playoff games, they need to get a front four that can pressure the QB (FIRST), and plug running holes (SECOND).

Fix the Defensive Line, and you fix the biggest issue with the Broncos…I fully agree especially about the physically overmatched part...

All great D i've seen were physical : Giants, Bears, Ravens, Steelers...
You can have the best schemes ever, if you can't win your matchup, you're going nowhere.
I had a dream when Broncos played physical against the Bucs, but well... that was just a dream actually.
Speed is good, but I think we shouldn't trade the physical part of the game. In another thread, Tops and I talked about hits too... A good D can (and will) allow some plays, but they'll always make the O pays for that. We are not able to do that. Period.

I also have to say that our O needs to wake up too.

Traveler
10-15-2008, 08:21 AM
LINCICOME: Broncos clearly lack stop-entiousness


The word was a bit Bush-esque but still made sense. Aggress-tivity.

This came from the Phillies' Shane Victorino, who was explaining the natural athletic instincts that caused both dugouts to empty at Dodger Stadium. That is baseball, by the way, several degrees below football in aggress-tivity, but part of the nature of competition.

It came to me that it might be what the Broncos lack, especially on defense, some of that aggress-tivity, more than simple aggression but a collective outrage, a shared resentmentness.

There must be a whole inventory of attributes the Broncos do not have. To name a few, antago-lence. Belliger-ality. Hostil-mosity.

These are much preferred to the alternative, which would mean that the Broncos simply are not good enough, that they do not match up man-to-man with other teams. That would be inadequality.

You wonder if John McCain's campaign supporters might have more aggress-tivity than the Broncos defense, or when Mike Shanahan is going to whip somebody's you-know-what, as McCain promised to do in the final presidential debate.

When baseball and politics out-aggresatize football, the world has slipped its leash.

Here might be another helpful description of the Broncos defense. Gentl-if- luous.

That is when the other team's offense is treated with kindness, with a general sympathy, so that no one is hurt or upset or indignant. Everyone comes away pleased. No enemies are made, not to the extent that later they all cannot hug and sing camp songs.

Rechecking my play-by-play against the Jaguars, I counted 21 incidents when the runner or the pass catcher took a hit from a Bronco and continued on for more yardage, suddenly appearing much farther downfield than if he had been handled roughly rather than gentl-if-luously.

This does not count all the times - and I admit I lost track - a receiver or a runner was allowed to move freely for many yards before coming into contact with a Bronco. This is called anti-obstruction-ocity.

Or, to put a positive spin on it, impede-lessness.

The nontackle or the semitackle is an uncommon occurrence in the NFL because it is practiced just the opposite of how it takes place with the Broncos, the general rule being to hit hard and low and wrap both arms around the runner instead of high and soft and with only a couple of fingers. So, not only are the Broncos gentl-if-luous, but they are contrardict-umous as well.

Of course, these are all general terms and do not address individual or group deficiencies such as the complete absence of pressure on the quarterback from the defensive line. The word for this is front-four-bearance.

Teams without a pass rush are known to be sack-religious.

When, on the rare occasion a lineman does get to the quarterback, this is known as a Dumervil.

The Broncos are, as far as can be detected, completely safety-free, not to be confused with a free safety. This is a little-recognized condition called journeyman-dering; that is, starting safeties who have played for eight other teams.

To illustrate, when an opposing quarterback looks across the line and sees Marquand Manuel and Marlon McCree, he has to keep himself from smacking his lips and muttering yum-yum as he calls the signals.

And receivers who know that they have nothing to fear fly down field like fawns in a meadow, only occasionally having to wonder what that little bump was as they frolic into the end zone.

A position that once was manned by Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith and John Lynch is now occupied by wedding ushers. This is known as being deterioratory.

Linebackers do appear from time to time in the Broncos defense, showing up like freeloaders after the check has been picked up by somebody else. The favored method is to see which one can avoid making the first hit so they can then jump in and get some credit for a tackle.

The term for this is d'Artagnanism, harking to the Three Musketeers, where Athos, Porthos and Aramis did all the fighting and d'Artagnan got the glory and the girl.

Avoiding Champ Bailey comes under the general heading of wisdom, leaving the other cornerback - as Dre Bly shall be forever known - responsible for all the catches made by opposing receivers.

Bly suffers from the unfortunate condition known as isolation-embarrassmentia, taking most of the blame because he most obviously deserves it.

My list is incomplete. I am sure there are many other things the Broncos defense can be called, some in single syllables, some just in sounds or gestures.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/oct/14/lincicome-broncos-clearly-lack-stop-entiousness/

Cugel
10-15-2008, 11:18 AM
Agree. Champ indirectly called them out in hi spost game interview when he said the J-Ville TE kept getting behind our safeties.

As for the rest of the defense, what can you say? Dumervil, Petersen, and Moss has chances to sack Garrard but failed. The defense just isn't making palys when the have the opportunity. Until they do, expect the slide to continue.

Moss and Crowder were taken to fit in with Jim Bates' defensive scheme. But, before they could even get into the lineup, Bates was fired. Suddenly, the #1 and #3 draft picks from 1 year ago don't fit on the roster any more!

Moss was a horrible pick, because they already had Dumervil at RDE and he's too light to play LDE. So, basically, you've got a #17 pick of the first round you traded a 3rd round pick to move up for -- and who will NEVER be a starter on the Broncos!

Worse, this year Shanahan is emphasizing run defense because he doesn't want teams to run time off the clock and keep his offense off the field. (They run defense is bad enough with Ekuban and Engleberger on the field).

So Moss is WORSE than a BUSTED pick because he's TWO BUSTED PICKS! :coffee:

What we saw on Sunday was Shanahan desperately trying to get some conceivable use out of the player they are paying millions of dollars. Since he obviously can't

As for Tim Crowder he's not even an afterthought at this point. He looks to be traded in the off-season if they can find anybody to take him off the Broncos hands. Perhaps if they threw in Moss they might get a pick in return for both of them. Maybe the two players that cost the Broncos a #1, and 2 #3's will get a 4th or 5th round pick in return. :coffee:

But, more probably, they will be cut and get nothing.

Meanwhile there is no help ahead. People wonder why the Broncos don't blitz more? Have you noticed that on every 3rd down where they try that the other team picks up the blitz easily and that leaves a wide open WR for a 1st down?

In short, blitzing doesn't help if you don't have any pass-rushers who can get in on the QB.

The Broncos almost NEVER sack the QB and the few times they do it's usually by some surprise CB blitz or something.

TXBRONC
10-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Moss and Crowder were taken to fit in with Jim Bates' defensive scheme. But, before they could even get into the lineup, Bates was fired. Suddenly, the #1 and #3 draft picks from 1 year ago don't fit on the roster any more!

Moss was a horrible pick, because they already had Dumervil at RDE and he's too light to play LDE. So, basically, you've got a #17 pick of the first round you traded a 3rd round pick to move up for -- and who will NEVER be a starter on the Broncos!

Worse, this year Shanahan is emphasizing run defense because he doesn't want teams to run time off the clock and keep his offense off the field. (They run defense is bad enough with Ekuban and Engleberger on the field).

So Moss is WORSE than a BUSTED pick because he's TWO BUSTED PICKS! :coffee:

What we saw on Sunday was Shanahan desperately trying to get some conceivable use out of the player they are paying millions of dollars. Since he obviously can't

As for Tim Crowder he's not even an afterthought at this point. He looks to be traded in the off-season if they can find anybody to take him off the Broncos hands. Perhaps if they threw in Moss they might get a pick in return for both of them. Maybe the two players that cost the Broncos a #1, and 2 #3's will get a 4th or 5th round pick in return. :coffee:

But, more probably, they will be cut and get nothing.

Meanwhile there is no help ahead. People wonder why the Broncos don't blitz more? Have you noticed that on every 3rd down where they try that the other team picks up the blitz easily and that leaves a wide open WR for a 1st down?

In short, blitzing doesn't help if you don't have any pass-rushers who can get in on the QB.

The Broncos almost NEVER sack the QB and the few times they do it's usually by some surprise CB blitz or something.

Teams generally don't give up on number one picks after just one year. Cugel you're excellent poster but calling Moss a bust doesn't make it so. I have yet teams give up on number one draft choices after just one year even when a change has been made and they might not seem to fit.

When teams invest that much by making a player a number one pick they don't throw them way one regardless of what happens to the scheme. What they do is what Denver is doing, you try and find away to get them onto the field.

For what it's worth, Moss has suited up the last two games, and he's gotten to play. If Denver does indeed switch to a 3-4 base it would behoove them keep Moss around to see if he can adjust to a new position.

broncofaninfla
10-15-2008, 11:55 AM
Teams generally don't give up on number one picks after just one year. Cugel you're excellent poster but calling Moss a bust doesn't make it so. I have yet teams give up on number one draft choices after just one year even when a change has been made and they might not seem to fit.

When teams invest that much by making a player a number one pick they don't throw them way one regardless of what happens to the scheme. What they do is what Denver is doing, you try and find away to get them onto the field.

For what it's worth, Moss has suited up the last two games, and he's gotten to play. If Denver does indeed switch to a 3-4 base it would behoove them keep Moss around to see if he can adjust to a new position.


If Moss can't play the run as a DE, what makes you think he can as an OLB? After watching Moss against Jax, I am not only convinced he is a bust but truly feel he will be out of the league within 2 years

TXBRONC
10-15-2008, 11:59 AM
If Moss can't play the run as a DE, what makes you think he can as an OLB? After watching Moss against Jax, I am not only convinced he is a bust but truly feel he will be out of the league within 2 years

What me think that he could play the run better as an OLB. As an OLB he doesn't necessarily have to have a hand on the ground.

Ziggy
10-15-2008, 12:27 PM
Well, teams have given up on first round picks early, in fact Denver has. His name was Ted Gregory and he was traded before his first training camp was even over. It's very rare though. I'm not on board with calling Moss a bust just yet. He just doesn't have enough games under his belt. He certainly hasn't been impressive, but I'm going to give him some more time. Call me crazy, the eternal optimist, or whatever you want to. I'm still holding out hope that he can be a good player.

TXBRONC
10-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Well, teams have given up on first round picks early, in fact Denver has. His name was Ted Gregory and he was traded before his first training camp was even over. It's very rare though. I'm not on board with calling Moss a bust just yet. He just doesn't have enough games under his belt. He certainly hasn't been impressive, but I'm going to give him some more time. Call me crazy, the eternal optimist, or whatever you want to. I'm still holding out hope that he can be a good player.

Ziggy all I said is that teams generally don't give up on number one picks after just one year. Gregory was an anomaly. It's been 20 years since that took place.

topscribe
10-15-2008, 01:06 PM
3 words:

Poor safety play.

And safety play is going to remain "poor" while a pass rush does not exist . . .

-----

Ziggy
10-15-2008, 01:18 PM
Ziggy all I said is that teams generally don't give up on number one picks after just one year. Gregory was an anomaly. It's been 20 years since that took place.

I agreed, and also said in that post that it's very rare. I hope that never happens again, and I agree with you on the Moss situation. There aren't too many of us who haven't written him off as a bust yet.

TXBRONC
10-15-2008, 01:28 PM
I agreed, and also said in that post that it's very rare. I hope that never happens again, and I agree with you on the Moss situation. There aren't too many of us who haven't written him off as a bust yet.

Ok apparently I read your post differently than what you actually said. :salute:

lex
10-15-2008, 08:03 PM
Moss and Crowder were taken to fit in with Jim Bates' defensive scheme. But, before they could even get into the lineup, Bates was fired. Suddenly, the #1 and #3 draft picks from 1 year ago don't fit on the roster any more!

Moss was a horrible pick, because they already had Dumervil at RDE and he's too light to play LDE. So, basically, you've got a #17 pick of the first round you traded a 3rd round pick to move up for -- and who will NEVER be a starter on the Broncos!

Worse, this year Shanahan is emphasizing run defense because he doesn't want teams to run time off the clock and keep his offense off the field. (They run defense is bad enough with Ekuban and Engleberger on the field).

So Moss is WORSE than a BUSTED pick because he's TWO BUSTED PICKS! :coffee:

What we saw on Sunday was Shanahan desperately trying to get some conceivable use out of the player they are paying millions of dollars. Since he obviously can't

As for Tim Crowder he's not even an afterthought at this point. He looks to be traded in the off-season if they can find anybody to take him off the Broncos hands. Perhaps if they threw in Moss they might get a pick in return for both of them. Maybe the two players that cost the Broncos a #1, and 2 #3's will get a 4th or 5th round pick in return. :coffee:

But, more probably, they will be cut and get nothing.

Meanwhile there is no help ahead. People wonder why the Broncos don't blitz more? Have you noticed that on every 3rd down where they try that the other team picks up the blitz easily and that leaves a wide open WR for a 1st down?

In short, blitzing doesn't help if you don't have any pass-rushers who can get in on the QB.

The Broncos almost NEVER sack the QB and the few times they do it's usually by some surprise CB blitz or something.


Its a frequent occurrence that the coverage undermines the pass rushers. When you give WRs that much room, its an easy read for the QB and not even a blitz can stop it. But there have been times when it seemed like the DE would have made it to the QB if not for the big cushion. Yeah, there are times when the QB has too long to through but to compliment that Slowik cant coordinate his coverages with the designed pressures, nor can he scheme looks that confuse the defenses or OL blocking assignments. The QBs having all day to throw from time to time is a small part of it. Many teams scheme pressure but most teams have a _C with a better resume than the guy coordinating our _efense.

OMorange&blue
10-15-2008, 10:15 PM
Its a zone, not a cushion.