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TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 07:53 AM
Klis' take is very similar many of the people here on what Orton's true trade value is. There is also several other good questions and answers in his mailbag that you might be interested in.



Broncos Mailbag: What is Kyle Orton's true trade value?
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 04/12/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

I've been reading that the Eagles' price for obtaining QB Kevin Kolb has been a first- and third-rounder — and that there are teams actually interested in making that trade. If that's the case, why is Kyle Orton's trade value only mentioned at a second- or third-rounder? Orton is only two years older and has way better stats for the last two years. At the very least, their trade value should be equal.
-- Art, Clovis, Calif.

Art - You make an astute observation. One reason for a difference in compensation demand is salary. To clarify, the Broncos have not put Orton on the trade market. But if they do, Orton is to make $8.8 million this year while Kolb is to draw $1.4 million. The lower the salary, the greater the market value in the player.

One reason why the Broncos were able to get a rich package of two first-round draft picks, plus a third-rounder in exchange for Jay Cutler and a fifth-round pick from Chicago two years ago was because he was only going to make $1.035 million in 2009. (The Bears still wound up clobbering the Broncos in that trade.)

Read Klis' full response here: http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_17819993

Juriga72
04-12-2011, 09:41 AM
One reason why the Broncos were able to get a rich package of two first-round draft picks, plus a third-rounder in exchange for Jay Cutler and a fifth-round pick from Chicago two years ago was because he was only going to make $1.035 million in 2009. (The Bears still wound up clobbering the Broncos in that trade.)Read Klis' full response here: http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_17819993


Uh..... Someone get ready to give mouth to mouth to a few guys here.....

MNPatsFan
04-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Uh..... Someone get ready to give mouth to mouth to a few guys here.....Clay is ALWAYS ready to give mouth to mouth to a few guys!:D

:laugh:

claymore
04-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Hell Yeah.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 10:26 AM
I found this excerpt interesting. Because on the one hand Klis basically says he thinks Orton is a second tier quarterback starter in 12-18 range of where he would rank. But in the next breath says he thinks that he worth a second or a third round pick. I think his value in the third or fourth round range. It might be possible to get a second rounder for him in the right situation but I don't think current climate gives Denver fertile ground to get a pick that high.



Mailbag: What is Kyle Orton's true trade value?
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 04/12/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT


The other reason for the compensation disparity is the perception of Kolb's potential vs. the reality of Orton's player. Orton is a proven starter who can win on a team with a strong defense and running game. But he's a starter in the 12-18 range of NFL quarterbacks.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_17819993

claymore
04-12-2011, 11:02 AM
I found this excerpt interesting. Because on the one hand Klis basically says he thinks Orton is a second tier quarterback starter in 12-18 range of where he would rank. But in the next breath says he thinks that he worth a second or a third round pick. I think his value in the third or fourth round range. It might be possible to get a second rounder for him in the right situation but I don't think current climate gives Denver fertile ground to get a pick that high.

I would be happy as hell if we could get a second for him.

jhildebrand
04-12-2011, 11:07 AM
IMHO, Orton will bring a 3rd. If that.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 11:36 AM
I would be happy as hell if we could get a second for him.

So would I. If you get a better deal than what you think a player actually worth you don't say no.

LordTrychon
04-12-2011, 12:06 PM
I think a 3rd would be feasible if we don't just jump at the first offer, which I hope we wanted. The reason I think that is that you have to assume that whoever is trading for a quarterback needs one pretty badly.

jhildebrand
04-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Kolb and Hasselbeck will move before Orton.

Then there is the Palmer question. I think any team that is interested in Orton would look at their chances with Palmer first.

Finally, McNabb will be out there as well. I am not saying people would take McNabb over Orton but a team will surely try to use it as leverage.

Ravage!!!
04-12-2011, 12:25 PM
Kolb and Hasselbeck will move before Orton.

Then there is the Palmer question. I think any team that is interested in Orton would look at their chances with Palmer first.

Finally, McNabb will be out there as well. I am not saying people would take McNabb over Orton but a team will surely try to use it as leverage.

a team like Minnesota would take McNabb over Orton. A team that is built and ready to win NOW will take that chance over a stop-gap QB.

I do think that Orton moves faster than Hasselbeck, unless Matt is cheaper.

jhildebrand
04-12-2011, 01:04 PM
I do think that Orton moves faster than Hasselbeck, unless Matt is cheaper.

Really? I just see Hasselbeck as being more polished and doesn't have the interesting comments that Orton has made since Tebow started. I think that willl scare some teams. You very may well be right.

Hopefully mediation pans out so we can see :beer:

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Really? I just see Hasselbeck as being more polished and doesn't have the interesting comments that Orton has made since Tebow started. I think that willl scare some teams. You very may well be right.

Hopefully mediation pans out so we can see :beer:

I think the fact Orton is six years than Hasselbeck is plus in his favor.

chazoe60
04-12-2011, 01:11 PM
I found this excerpt interesting. Because on the one hand Klis basically says he thinks Orton is a second tier quarterback starter in 12-18 range of where he would rank. But in the next breath says he thinks that he worth a second or a third round pick. I think his value in the third or fourth round range. It might be possible to get a second rounder for him in the right situation but I don't think current climate gives Denver fertile ground to get a pick that high.

I think ranking Orton 18th would be generous, 12 is just ridiculous.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 01:15 PM
I think ranking Orton 18th would be generous, 12 is just ridiculous.

I don't think it is. It's just the high end of being second tier quarterback. Personally I would say Orton is closer to 15 than 12.

Juriga72
04-12-2011, 01:38 PM
I think the fact Orton is six years than Hasselbeck is plus in his favor.

Hasslebeck has actually WON playoff games, let alone played in them is huge for him.

Orton has gone each and every year missing games due to injury or terrible play. The "book" on him is he can't beat you deep..... who would want that?

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Hasslebeck has actually WON playoff games, let alone played in them is huge for him.

Orton has gone each and every year missing games due to injury or terrible play. The "book" on him is he can't beat you deep..... who would want that?


I understand all that but I think it's possible in the right situation a another team might see it differently.

Slick
04-12-2011, 01:49 PM
I've been reading that the Eagles' price for obtaining QB Kevin Kolb has been a first- and third-rounder — and that there are teams actually interested in making that trade. If that's the case, why is Kyle Orton's trade value only mentioned at a second- or third-rounder? Orton is only two years older and has way better stats for the last two years. At the very least, their trade value should be equal.
-- Art, Clovis, Calif.

I'd like to know Art's source. Kolb's agent maybe?

What team not run by McDaniels in need of a QB would give up a 1st and 3rd for Kevin Kolb?


If I'm the Bills, Titans, Panthers, 49ers or Vikings I'd take my chances on drafting a kid myself before I'd give up a 1st and a 3rd on Kolb.




On Orton, I think we'd be extremely fortunate to get a 4th or 5th.

Dzone
04-12-2011, 01:56 PM
send him back to chicago as further punishment. Then chicago can have two Hunchbacks at Quarterback...that would be cool.

Slick
04-12-2011, 02:26 PM
I have a feeling we aren't going to deal Orton anyways. I'm almost willing to bet cash money that Fox wants Orton to start and Tebow either spends a little more time marinating on the bench or they deal him(Tebow) instead.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 02:26 PM
I'd like to know Art's source. Kolb's agent maybe?

What team not run by McDaniels in need of a QB would give up a 1st and 3rd for Kevin Kolb?


If I'm the Bills, Titans, Panthers, 49ers or Vikings I'd take my chances on drafting a kid myself before I'd give up a 1st and a 3rd on Kolb.




On Orton, I think we'd be extremely fortunate to get a 4th or 5th.

I see Orton's value pretty much in the same way you do.I might go as high as a third rounder. It would to get as high as second round pick for Orton but I think that also means the other team is in dire straights.

Nomad
04-12-2011, 02:37 PM
I have a feeling we aren't going to deal Orton anyways. I'm almost willing to bet cash money that Fox wants Orton to start and Tebow either spends a little more time marinating on the bench or they deal him(Tebow) instead.

I'm sure Johnny Boy already has a verbal deal done with Jax.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 02:41 PM
I have a feeling we aren't going to deal Orton anyways. I'm almost willing to bet cash money that Fox wants Orton to start and Tebow either spends a little more time marinating on the bench or they deal him(Tebow) instead.

Maybe not this year but I think a lot has to do with when a new CBA is put into place.

Juriga72
04-12-2011, 03:24 PM
I understand all that but I think it's possible in the right situation a another team might see it differently.

Very true.... ALL we need is one team to be "out of Town Stupid".....

"We can fix him....."
"He wouldn't have to do much for us"...lol

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 03:37 PM
Very true.... ALL we need is one team to be "out of Town Stupid".....

"We can fix him....."
"He wouldn't have to do much for us"...lol

Be nice.

Ravage!!!
04-12-2011, 04:03 PM
Broncos Mailbag: What is Kyle Orton's true trade value?
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 04/12/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

I've been reading that the Eagles' price for obtaining QB Kevin Kolb has been a first- and third-rounder — and that there are teams actually interested in making that trade. If that's the case, why is Kyle Orton's trade value only mentioned at a second- or third-rounder? Orton is only two years older and has way better stats for the last two years. At the very least, their trade value should be equal.
-- Art, Clovis, Calif.

Art - You make an astute observation. One reason for a difference in compensation demand is salary. To clarify, the Broncos have not put Orton on the trade market. But if they do, Orton is to make $8.8 million this year while Kolb is to draw $1.4 million. The lower the salary, the greater the market value in the player.

One reason why the Broncos were able to get a rich package of two first-round draft picks, plus a third-rounder in exchange for Jay Cutler and a fifth-round pick from Chicago two years ago was because he was only going to make $1.035 million in 2009. (The Bears still wound up clobbering the Broncos in that trade.)

Read Klis' full response here: http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_17819993

Well, I think this certainly explains why we gave Orton the contract we did. Had nothing to do with wanting to keep him here, but so that we HAVE to get a higher pick in trade.

cardoso
04-12-2011, 04:33 PM
I have a feeling we aren't going to deal Orton anyways. I'm almost willing to bet cash money that Fox wants Orton to start and Tebow either spends a little more time marinating on the bench or they deal him(Tebow) instead.

LOL I guess you're one of those who actually believe elway and fox are stupid enough to trade Tebow. Tebow isn't going no where. Orton will be shopped as soon as they can wheel and deal. The verdit is already out on Orton. The whole NFL knows what orton is and only someone as stupid as mcdaniels would trade a qb like cutler for orton. Look where it got us? #2 overall pick. But i guess it makes the draft that much more funner for Broncos fans.

cardoso
04-12-2011, 04:40 PM
Well, I think this certainly explains why we gave Orton the contract we did. Had nothing to do with wanting to keep him here, but so that we HAVE to get a higher pick in trade.

exactly! We offered this guy a 1 or 2 year deal and people think we're going to ship tebow and keep orton :laugh: Orton was a "FOR NOW UNTIL WE FIND SOMEONE BETTER" qb and his contract couldn't have proven that any more. If he was our guy he'd have a 6, 7 year deal right now.

Slick
04-12-2011, 05:02 PM
LOL I guess you're one of those who actually believe elway and fox are stupid enough to trade Tebow. Tebow isn't going no where. Orton will be shopped as soon as they can wheel and deal. The verdit is already out on Orton. The whole NFL knows what orton is and only someone as stupid as mcdaniels would trade a qb like cutler for orton. Look where it got us? #2 overall pick. But i guess it makes the draft that much more funner for Broncos fans.

I made the statement based on Coach Fox's affinity for veteran players, mixed in with a little sarcasm.

It's not what I want to happen or what I would do if I were in charge.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 05:19 PM
I made the statement based on Coach Fox's affinity for veteran players, mixed in with a little sarcasm.

It's not what I want to happen or what I would do if I were in charge.

You sarcastic? No freakin way! :D

Dzone
04-12-2011, 05:35 PM
I have a feeling we aren't going to deal Orton anyways. I'm almost willing to bet cash money that Fox wants Orton to start and Tebow either spends a little more time marinating on the bench or they deal him(Tebow) instead.
Just the thought of that makes me cringe...OMG another year of orton...Oh the humanity

Dzone
04-12-2011, 05:37 PM
if orton is starting qb next year, well, hello to the most boring team in the nfl. A qb that collapses to the ground in touch football...Good Lord please put a MAN in

Dzone
04-12-2011, 05:42 PM
Give us a quarterback that scares the living shit out of the people who have to tackle him. hell ya...dude will be putting dudes out on stretchers ...plus I hear he is going to be even bigger and faster than last years model. Now that's football.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 06:39 PM
Just the thought of that makes me cringe...OMG another year of orton...Oh the humanity

The way it looks to me whether or not Orton is here another year isn't a big because I don't see him as a long term solution. Even if Orton does stay it doesn't mean necessarily mean he would still start.

Dzone
04-12-2011, 07:44 PM
Orton should be gone just because of his ridiculous contract

atwater27
04-12-2011, 08:02 PM
Give us a quarterback that scares the living shit out of the people who have to tackle him. hell ya...dude will be putting dudes out on stretchers ...plus I hear he is going to be even bigger and faster than last years model. Now that's football.

Ummmm. sorry to rain on your Tim Tebow is Earl Campbell thing you got goin... but if that is how Tim plays the game, he won't last long AT ALL. Dude will be puttin himself on a stretcher. And will be held out of games even if he thinks he's good to go. Especially with the new concussion rules.

TXBRONC
04-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Ummmm. sorry to rain on your Tim Tebow is Earl Campbell thing you got goin... but if that is how Tim plays the game, he won't last long AT ALL. Dude will be puttin himself on a stretcher. And will be held out of games even if he thinks he's good to go. Especially with the new concussion rules.

I really don't get why people think that it would be good idea for Tebow to do that much running. It's just way to much punishment for quarterback to have to endure. Just becauses he's 240 lbs doesn't mean he's unbreakable.

Bullgator
04-12-2011, 09:40 PM
Ill settle for herpes and some rolos.

Northman
04-13-2011, 04:36 AM
I really don't get why people think that it would be good idea for Tebow to do that much running. It's just way to much punishment for quarterback to have to endure. Just becauses he's 240 lbs doesn't mean he's unbreakable.

Indeed. That should be very obvious considering what happened in the pre-season last year. And just look at Michael Vick. Both guys are extremely athletic but at the pro level your going to have to use smarts more than brawn. Down the stretch last year Vick was a non factor athletically because GB knew how to shut him down. Once that happens you need to be able to make plays with your arm and dissect defenses. At the college level you can get away with running around all day but not at the pro level. The competition is just too good and fast and even a guy like Tebow would pay a heavy price believing he could do that at the pro level with that much consistency. Having the ability to scramble is great, but knowing when to use it is the smarter way to go about it. If you were to want a QB who has that ability you would want a blueprint of a guy like Elway, not Vick.

claymore
04-13-2011, 04:52 AM
Maybe Tebow can fill the void that Hillis left. Then we can really draft a QB. :D

Lonestar
04-13-2011, 11:10 AM
LOL I guess you're one of those who actually believe elway and fox are stupid enough to trade Tebow. Tebow isn't going no where. Orton will be shopped as soon as they can wheel and deal. The verdit is already out on Orton. The whole NFL knows what orton is and only someone as stupid as mcdaniels would trade a qb like cutler for orton. Look where it got us? #2 overall pick. But i guess it makes the draft that much more funner for Broncos fans.

Iirc we traded the headcase for two firsts and Orton whom iirc had two years that where statistically better than jay. But then Chicago also had a defense and ST that won games for him.
Orton had neither.
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topscribe
04-13-2011, 11:18 AM
I have a feeling we aren't going to deal Orton anyways. I'm almost willing to bet cash money that Fox wants Orton to start and Tebow either spends a little more time marinating on the bench or they deal him(Tebow) instead.

I'm hoping Fox hasn't made up his mind, as he has said he hasn't. I'm hoping
he lets the QBs compete to see what he really has this year. IMO, it would be
a dastardly mistake to deal off any of the QBs this year. Despite all the
disparaging remarks about both Orton and Tebow, the QB position was not
the problem last year.

Get the running game going and the defense to where they can stop the run
and pressure the QB a little bit, and the Broncos will win. The answer is there,
not at QB . . .

-----

KCL
04-13-2011, 11:55 AM
Ummmm. sorry to rain on your Tim Tebow is Earl Campbell thing you got goin... but if that is how Tim plays the game, he won't last long AT ALL. Dude will be puttin himself on a stretcher. And will be held out of games even if he thinks he's good to go. Especially with the new concussion rules.

Exactly..players like Tamba Hali love to get to the QB...are DE going to be afraid to sack the QB because it's Tebow..please.....

TXBRONC
04-13-2011, 11:59 AM
Exactly..players like Tamba Hali love to get to the QB...are DE going to be afraid to sack the QB because it's Tebow..please.....

It's more than that. Some people thinking he could be a major contributor to the running game. The only thing will accomplish is get the quarterback beat nearly to death.

KCL
04-13-2011, 12:02 PM
send him back to chicago as further punishment. Then chicago can have two Hunchbacks at Quarterback...that would be cool.

Punishment? They had a great season last year.

KCL
04-13-2011, 12:16 PM
It's more than that. Some people thinking he could be a major contributor to the running game. The only thing will accomplish is get the quarterback beat nearly to death.

Yep..he takes off running and he is fair game just like a RB...there would be no roughing the QB call..sure a QB has to scramble at times but some pay a price..just ask Trent Green.

topscribe
04-13-2011, 12:23 PM
send him back to chicago as further punishment. Then chicago can have two Hunchbacks at Quarterback...that would be cool.

Wow, did you catch Orton in bed with your wife or something? :confused:

-----

Lonestar
04-13-2011, 02:03 PM
Exactly..players like Tamba Hali love to get to the QB...are DE going to be afraid to sack the QB because it's Tebow..please.....

yet being Tebow he may be able to evade them easier . I do not want to see him running the ball all the time, but being able to gives him a leg up..

Bullgator
04-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Exactly..players like Tamba Hali love to get to the QB...are DE going to be afraid to sack the QB because it's Tebow..please.....

Sooo what you are saying is that the label QB is what makes TT vulnerable to injury?

what the hell is diff between a 245lb RB and a 245lb QB who IS also a RB. TT is built for impact... he will last as as long as any RB who has ever played the game.

funny thing is the only time he missed a game due to injury he was sacked standing in the pocket not running the ball.

now if you were talking about brady or manning yea they are not built that way, they need to avoid contact at all cost.

Hes built as a football player not a qb. TT can play anyway he wants... having said that i still think he will play smart and only run for first downs and TDs

KCL
04-13-2011, 02:13 PM
yet being Tebow he may be able to evade them easier . I do not want to see him running the ball all the time, but being able to gives him a leg up..

He may.....it's what he gets paid to do...he was second in the league in sacks last season..he loves to get after the QB.

Slick
04-13-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm hoping Fox hasn't made up his mind, as he has said he hasn't. I'm hoping
he lets the QBs compete to see what he really has this year. IMO, it would be
a dastardly mistake to deal off any of the QBs this year. Despite all the
disparaging remarks about both Orton and Tebow, the QB position was not
the problem last year.

Get the running game going and the defense to where they can stop the run
and pressure the QB a little bit, and the Broncos will win. The answer is there,
not at QB . . .

-----

I think Orton will look better in practice than Tebow and therefore win the job in Foxs eyes, especially if there is no training camp or any mini camps this year.

:pukes:

I guess it really all depends on what the team goals are for the next football season. Do they want to evaluate the young QB prospect in live game action, or are they going to hold on to a hope of making the playoffs in Fox's first year?

I know which of the above I'd prefer.

KCL
04-13-2011, 02:17 PM
Sooo what you are saying is that the label QB is what makes TT vulnerable to injury?

what the hell is diff between a 245lb RB and a 245lb QB who IS also a RB. TT is built for impact... he will last as as long as any RB who has ever played the game.

funny thing is the only time he missed a game due to injury he was sacked standing in the pocket not running the ball.

now if you were talking about brady or manning yea they are not built that way, they need to avoid contact at all cost.

Hes built as a football player not a qb. TT can play anyway he wants... having said that i still think he will play smart and only run for first downs and TDs

I'm just stating facts about Hali ..is there anything wrong with that?

Lonestar
04-13-2011, 02:27 PM
He may.....it's what he gets paid to do...he was second in the league in sacks last season..he loves to get after the QB.

He is a great player Y'all have been building a damned fine team with those high draft picks the last almost decade. you just IMO lacked a great coach. you now have a Great GM the one I wanted when Josh was hired and if your coach does not get you there then he will get the axe.

As for hali I'll put him and Tebow one on one any day in a few years.. I suspect Tim will win that match.

Lonestar
04-13-2011, 02:32 PM
Sooo what you are saying is that the label QB is what makes TT vulnerable to injury?

what the hell is diff between a 245lb RB and a 245lb QB who IS also a RB. TT is built for impact... he will last as as long as any RB who has ever played the game.

funny thing is the only time he missed a game due to injury he was sacked standing in the pocket not running the ball.

now if you were talking about brady or manning yea they are not built that way, they need to avoid contact at all cost.

Hes built as a football player not a qb. TT can play anyway he wants... having said that i still think he will play smart and only run for first downs and TDs
I like Tebow so do not call me a hater.

If he thinks he can stand up tot eh rigors of the NFL the same way he did in college he will in fact have a shorter career.


That is not to say that he will not be able to bull over a DB or maybe have LB wish they did not try to tackle him head on. But when 90% of the guys he will be playing at or near the LOS are his size or more (not like in college) he will get smart fast or be on IR year after year.

Takes one knee injury and his running days are pretty much over.

KCL
04-13-2011, 02:32 PM
He is a great player Y'all have been building a damned fine team with those high draft picks the last almost decade. you just IMO lacked a great coach. you now have a Great GM the one I wanted when Josh was hired and if your coach does not get you there then he will get the axe.

As for hali I'll put him and Tebow one on one any day in a few years.. I suspect Tim will win that match.

Had to look it up..he is 6'3...275 lbs..we'll see.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-13-2011, 02:36 PM
Sooo what you are saying is that the label QB is what makes TT vulnerable to injury?

what the hell is diff between a 245lb RB and a 245lb QB who IS also a RB. TT is built for impact... he will last as as long as any RB who has ever played the game.

funny thing is the only time he missed a game due to injury he was sacked standing in the pocket not running the ball.

now if you were talking about brady or manning yea they are not built that way, they need to avoid contact at all cost.

Hes built as a football player not a qb. TT can play anyway he wants... having said that i still think he will play smart and only run for first downs and TDs

TT's style of play is what makes him vunerable. It is a known fact that every NFL defense targets taking MAJOR hits on a QB every chance they get. There is nothing wrong with an NFL QB running the ball every once in a while, but no QB will survive very long doing it consistently. And, no RB runs the ball in a game on every offensive play - there are passes, end arounds, other plays mixed in.

KCL
04-13-2011, 02:44 PM
TT's style of play is what makes him vunerable. It is a known fact that every NFL defense targets taking MAJOR hits on a QB every chance they get. There is nothing wrong with an NFL QB running the ball every once in a while, but no QB will survive very long doing it consistently. And, no RB runs the ball in a game on every offensive play - there are passes, end arounds, other plays mixed in.

I wasn't taking anything away from Tebow with my post about Hali..I was just pointing out that he was 2nd in the league in sacks last season..he reminds me a lot of DT..and my post was in response to Atwater's.The guy does what he gets paid to do and does it well.

robert ethan
04-13-2011, 02:53 PM
Orton was the top passing QB in the league through the first 10 games of the season. Despite losing his top receiver from 2009 and half of his offensive line. He is much more proven than Kolb, and has yet to reach his prime. I bet half the QB needy teams in the league would take Orton ahead of Kolb. Or Tebow ahead of Kolb for that matter. I think Tim has about the same amount of experience as a starter and his numbers are probably just as good.

TXBRONC
04-13-2011, 06:43 PM
He may.....it's what he gets paid to do...he was second in the league in sacks last season..he loves to get after the QB.

Tebow doesn't like to avoid contact.

KCL
04-13-2011, 06:58 PM
Tebow doesn't like to avoid contact.

Neither does Hali.

Bullgator
04-13-2011, 10:32 PM
TT's style of play is what makes him vunerable. It is a known fact that every NFL defense targets taking MAJOR hits on a QB every chance they get. There is nothing wrong with an NFL QB running the ball every once in a while, but no QB will survive very long doing it consistently. And, no RB runs the ball in a game on every offensive play - there are passes, end arounds, other plays mixed in.

all im saying is that I think running 15 times a game is ok for TT... bottom line is that he is as built for impact as anyone in the league... also him being a qb only helps... QBs are better protected than RBs.

He will be fine... SEC defenses are just as big and almost as fast as the mythical nfl Ds... beleive it or not defenses in the SEC are NOT undersized... he will be fine... just tone it down a little... 15 times a game is np

anyone can get hurt but time will tell all

topscribe
04-13-2011, 11:12 PM
I think Orton will look better in practice than Tebow and therefore win the job in Foxs eyes, especially if there is no training camp or any mini camps this year.

:pukes:

I guess it really all depends on what the team goals are for the next football season. Do they want to evaluate the young QB prospect in live game action, or are they going to hold on to a hope of making the playoffs in Fox's first year?

I know which of the above I'd prefer.

I would hope it would be the latter. I have no interest in a 16-game preseason.
I want them going into the season with the belief and attitude they are going
to win and take it from there.

Tebow seems to have people drooling so badly all over themselves to see him
play that they seem to have forgotten that the objective of a football game
is to win. They just want Tebow in there. If Tebow is the better of the two,
then so do I. If not, then, no, I don't want him in there. I want to win. To
achieve that, you put your best players in there. Whether or not they sell
underwear . . .

-----

WARHORSE
04-13-2011, 11:22 PM
Tebow doesn't like to avoid contact.


Neither does Hali.



Tebows a VIRGIN!


Take THAT!!!!

TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 06:31 AM
Neither does Hali.

Exactly.

Juriga72
04-14-2011, 06:42 AM
I think Orton will look better in practice than Tebow and therefore win the job in Foxs eyes, especially if there is no training camp or any mini camps this year.

:pukes:

I guess it really all depends on what the team goals are for the next football season. Do they want to evaluate the young QB prospect in live game action, or are they going to hold on to a hope of making the playoffs in Fox's first year?

I know which of the above I'd prefer.

How funny you brought this up....


Is this not what the Orton Fan Club Army- OFCA said when he came here?

"Kyle COULD have, SHOULD have led the Bears to more playoff wins... but they HAD to play Grossman...... Grossman "Just looked better in practice"

Face it... IMHO we are stuck with a "Vet coach", who has a "Vet QB" and with a front office who is already speaking backpeddle about Tebow......

Get ready for "3 yards backwards and a crumple" for next year

TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 07:01 AM
all im saying is that I think running 15 times a game is ok for TT... bottom line is that he is as built for impact as anyone in the league... also him being a qb only helps... QBs are better protected than RBs.

He will be fine... SEC defenses are just as big and almost as fast as the mythical nfl Ds... beleive it or not defenses in the SEC are NOT undersized... he will be fine... just tone it down a little... 15 times a game is np

anyone can get hurt but time will tell all

No SEC defenses are not just as big as NFL defenses.

I don't think you understand the rules concerning quarterbacks. The rules apply differently to them when they are in the pocket but when they in essence become a running back the rules apply the same to them as they do for any runner.

Quarterbacks win championships in the NFL with their arms not their legs.

TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 07:05 AM
How funny you brought this up....


Is this not what the Orton Fan Club Army- OFCA said when he came here?

"Kyle COULD have, SHOULD have led the Bears to more playoff wins... but they HAD to play Grossman...... Grossman "Just looked better in practice"

Face it... IMHO we are stuck with a "Vet coach", who has a "Vet QB" and with a front office who is already speaking backpeddle about Tebow......

Get ready for "3 yards backwards and a crumple" for next year

If they've backpeddled from Tebow then they have done the same concerning Orton. The fact that the front office has been laying an eyeball on quarterback prospects is as much if not more of a red flag for Orton as it is for Tebow imo.

topscribe
04-14-2011, 11:06 AM
If they've backpeddled from Tebow then they have done the same concerning Orton. The fact that the front office has been laying an eyeball on quarterback prospects is as much if not more of a red flag for Orton as it is for Tebow imo.

Exactly correct. If they FO is shopping for QBs, it is a reflection on the entire
triumvirate of the present Broncos QBs, not just Tebow. Elway said in his most
recent interview on "102.3 The Ticket (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=740&f=74755)" that they "might have a franchise QB,
but we're not sure." I'm sure that is what is bothering Elway: When you have
a franchise QB, you're usually sure of it.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I personally would forget completely about
QBs until I had that defense at least respectable. The QBs the Broncos have
may or may not be at the franchise level, as Elway relates, but they are good.
The same cannot be said of the defense. It's driving me nuts . . .

-----

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 12:14 PM
No SEC defenses are not just as big as NFL defenses.

I don't think you understand the rules concerning quarterbacks. The rules apply differently to them when they are in the pocket but when they in essence become a running back the rules apply the same to them as they do for any runner.

Quarterbacks win championships in the NFL with their arms not their legs.

ironically TC its you who obviously doesnt understand the rules. you ever heard of the option to slide? not to say TT is the sliding type but in certain situations where he cant run out of bounds he has the option to slide and will if he has to.

and yes SEC defenses ARE as big almost to a man as NFL defenses. go do some research. some of them may lack some quickness or the skillset and footwork to be NFL calibur but there are no shortages of 255 pound linebackers and 300+ linemen. where the hell do you think NFL players come from?

and by the way "championships are won with arms not legs" is highlarious coming from a fan of elway... or did you ofrget his legs helped win those 2 championships? helicopter dive ring a bell?

maybe until now its been the arm that has ruled.. but as in anything the game must evolve... if arm is good than arms and legs is better but only if A, it is done well and B, the QB is durable enough to do both. Vick does them both awsome but he lacks the frame to stay healthy. TT has no such issues.

ill say it again, he is BUILT for impact, but can also throw.

KCL
04-14-2011, 12:45 PM
So BG..You think if he slides he won't get hit...watch a few NFL games and see what can happen to a QB who slides...you will still see defenders go in for the hit and some of these guys don't care if they hit the QB after the play is over...a QB laying on the ground is a better target for guys like James Harrison who has been fined numerous times.

Like I stated earlier..ask Trent Green how that worked out for him.

OOq4b4zydtI

vN_ixwNFOcM

Denver Native (Carol)
04-14-2011, 01:02 PM
Designed runs do not usually engage the Quarterback. In a college offense, the quarterback runs the ball frequently and plays are often designed for the quarterback to run. While quarterbacks do run in pro offenses, they run far less frequently and usually only in short yardage situations. (Michael Vick is a bit of an anomaly; but when he's in, I wouldn't call it a pro style offense).

http://www.quora.com/What-is-a-pro-style-offense-and-how-does-it-compare-to-other-styles-in-college-i-e-spread-offense

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 01:04 PM
Yes im saying sliding will avoid getting hit the VAST majority of the time.. its illegal to hit a sliding QB is it not?

do i have to post youtube footage of every successful slide lol?

you will always have dooshbags like harrison going for cheapshots... Tebow isnt more at risk of that than anyone else is... as you said yourself ask trent green. if your that concerned, hell why even play the game

and by the way trent green tebow is not. the label QB doesnt instantly make you a wuss... this kid is HUGE. as big as any linbacker and he hits just as hard... its like saying dont let alstott catch the snap and run! he might get hurt! Oh but handing it off to him is ok?

4 years of pounding and hes right as rain.. 3 games in the nfl and he showed no signs of lacking in the rushing department, or the pounding department... hell he already knocked out a linebacker who tried to get a bit hit on him.

its the reads and progressions he needs to get better at. dont worry about his running game, let him do what he does. worry about his passing game and hope he looks a lil more comfortable back there.

KCL
04-14-2011, 01:07 PM
WOW BG..My post went right over your head.

Ravage!!!
04-14-2011, 01:12 PM
ironically TC its you who obviously doesnt understand the rules. you ever heard of the option to slide? not to say TT is the sliding type but in certain situations where he cant run out of bounds he has the option to slide and will if he has to.

He just said that Tebow isn't the kind of guy to avoid contact. RBs can run out of bounds as well. No one is saying that having the ability to scramble, and pick up the yards if nothing is available to throw down the field, but having Tebow RUN the ball 15 times a game is just not a good idea. He'll get hurt, the coaches/owners/GMs do NOT want the most important position on the field running at NFL defensive players 15 times a game. That has spelled to be a DUMB idea.


and yes SEC defenses ARE as big almost to a man as NFL defenses. go do some research. some of them may lack some quickness or the skillset and footwork to be NFL calibur but there are no shortages of 255 pound linebackers and 300+ linemen. where the hell do you think NFL players come from?
A SLOW 255lb LB and a slow 300LB isn't what we are worried about. EVERY NFL player, is big, strong and FAST. EVERY player on the other side of the ball, is the BEST player on the opposing defense that Tebow faced in college. The defenses in the SEC aren't even close to being the WORST defense in the NFL.


and by the way "championships are won with arms not legs" is highlarious coming from a fan of elway... or did you ofrget his legs helped win those 2 championships? helicopter dive ring a bell?

YOu obviously have no understanding of Elway nor the Broncos. Again, no one has said that a scrambling QB is a bad thing, but champiionships are won on the arm and PASSING of the QB.... NOT on his rushing the ball. Elway was MUCH more of a passer than a rusher. It was his passing, his intelligence, and his ability to orchestrate the offense that scared defenses.


maybe until now its been the arm that has ruled.. but as in anything the game must evolve... if arm is good than arms and legs is better but only if A, it is done well and B, the QB is durable enough to do both. Vick does them both awsome but he lacks the frame to stay healthy. TT has no such issues.

ill say it again, he is BUILT for impact, but can also throw.

The game hasn't 'evolved' to a different game. If anything, its 'evolved' to more of a passing game. You aren't keeping up with the NFL if you think its changing to a 'running QB' game. Its not. The rules have changed more and more to push for more PASSING, not rushing. The QB is protected in the pocket, not outside the pocket. Believing that TT is somehow a brand of athlete that we haven't seen, is naive at best.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 01:14 PM
http://www.quora.com/What-is-a-pro-style-offense-and-how-does-it-compare-to-other-styles-in-college-i-e-spread-offense

Agreed carol.. that is the norm NOW. remember when there no one in the history of football ran for 20 tds and passed for 20 tds?

well TT changed that by being both the running back and QB rolled into 1. now others are following suit.. like capernick(sp?)

same thing in the NFL... no one has done it yet... but once someone is successful at it, everyone will try and copycat it(wildcat) in the NFL, the only problem is that there are only a handfull of players with the ability to do both. and of them there is only 1 so far that can handle that load who is built for impact. others like Vick may do it a lil better... but cant avoid getting hurt thanks to thier frames and lack of muscle mass. TT is just the perfect hybrid of both positions IMO and probobly the only guy that can make the hybrid position work in the NFL, he gives up some speed in favor of durability.

WARHORSE
04-14-2011, 01:26 PM
Quarterbacks win championships in the NFL with their arms not their legs.


You obviously have not watched Tim Tebow!! He will run/pass us to a championship.....you'll see buddy.




:coffee:







:shocked: Afterthought!








There goes our hope of ever seeing a no armed QB riverdance his way to a championship. DANGIT!!

Denver Native (Carol)
04-14-2011, 01:28 PM
Agreed carol.. that is the norm NOW. remember when there no one in the history of football ran for 20 tds and passed for 20 tds?

well TT changed that by being both the running back and QB rolled into 1. now others are following suit.. like capernick(sp?)

same thing in the NFL... no one has done it yet... but once someone is successful at it, everyone will try and copycat it(wildcat) in the NFL, the only problem is that there are only a handfull of players with the ability to do both. and of them there is only 1 so far that can handle that load who is built for impact. others like Vick may do it a lil better... but cant avoid getting hurt thanks to thier frames and lack of muscle mass. TT is just the perfect hybrid of both positions IMO and probobly the only guy that can make the hybrid position work in the NFL, he gives up some speed in favor of durability.

Not arguing with you BG, but I can guarantee you that NO NFL team will jeopardize their team's chances, and their starting QB, by excessively running him game after game after game. And, I don't care who that QB is - NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

You mentioned John's helicopter run in SuperBowl XXXII - John only ran 5 times for 17 yards in that game.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 01:32 PM
YOu obviously have no understanding of Elway nor the Broncos. Again, no one has said that a scrambling QB is a bad thing, but champiionships are won on the arm and PASSING of the QB.... NOT on his rushing the ball. Elway was MUCH more of a passer than a rusher. It was his passing, his intelligence, and his ability to orchestrate the offense that scared defenses.



The game hasn't 'evolved' to a different game. If anything, its 'evolved' to more of a passing game. You aren't keeping up with the NFL if you think its changing to a 'running QB' game. Its not. The rules have changed more and more to push for more PASSING, not rushing. The QB is protected in the pocket, not outside the pocket. Believing that TT is somehow a brand of athlete that we haven't seen, is naive at best.

how embaressed you must be to be told by a Gator fan that in both superbowls Elway passed for a combined 1 TD BUT RAN FOR TWO.

LOOKS LIKE HIS LEGS DID SOME CHAMPIONSHIP WORK.

in fact a combined 65 points in both SBs, all the TDs came from rushing TDs and only 1 passing TD

what the hell are you talking about?

as for TT not being a brand of athlete we havent seen yet.. EXACTLY.

NO one was ever able to do what TT has done and BY DEFINITION he is something we havent seen.

he did what hershial walker, bo jackson, emmit smith couldnt do.. these guys are HoFers...list goes on and on and he did it AS A QB NOT A RB lol

he is IN FACT a brand of player you have never seen... that may annoy you that im saying that but its a fact.

no one has done what he has period. annoying but true

KCL
04-14-2011, 01:35 PM
BG..going by what you say..you want to see Tebow run run run...Why even try to sign a good RB or WR..just let Tebow do it all.

I know you're a big Tebow fan but his job isn't to rush for the most yardage or score TDs.If he has to do it fine but that isn't the norm...he may have done that in college but I will guarantee you...the OC isn't going to be calling plays that will be having him do that.It's either going to be a pass play or a hand off...or some trick play they come up with.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 01:41 PM
Not arguing with you BG, but I can guarantee you that NO NFL team will jeopardize their team's chances, and their starting QB, by excessively running him game after game after game. And, I don't care who that QB is - NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

You mentioned John's helicopter run in SuperBowl XXXII - John only ran 5 times for 17 yards in that game.

who said the team running him 15 times lol... TT will run when he needs a first down or TD.. the rest of the time he will run what is called. 4-5 designed plays to run.. rest are all what would be sacks/forced throws/broken/hurrried playes. im sure youve seen a few of those before.. how did orton deal with them? yea TT most of the time will turn them into postive plays.

i agree that the coaching staff will have no fingernails left to chew or hair to pull out... but as long as the drive stays alive they gotta go with what works.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-14-2011, 01:43 PM
BG - in the Broncos SB win over GB, the Broncos had 302 total offensive yards - 179 by running, 123 by passing. Just because more touchdowns were scored via running than passing, the offense takes what the defense gives. Also, it means that the offensive line was dominating the defensive line.

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/history/boxscore/sbxxxii

Nomad
04-14-2011, 01:47 PM
Bullgator makes some valid points but I'm afraid if he runs like in college he'll end up like Steve Young with a skull full of mush!

I say get Tebow a run game and solid tightend (that can run routes and catch). BRONCOS have a decent receiving corps and we'll be set at offense....it also comes down to the hogs up front if they can run/pass block!! After this we'll see what Tim can do!

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 01:53 PM
BG..going by what you say..you want to see Tebow run run run...Why even try to sign a good RB or WR..just let Tebow do it all.

I know you're a big Tebow fan but his job isn't to rush for the most yardage or score TDs.If he has to do it fine but that isn't the norm...he may have done that in college but I will guarantee you...the OC isn't going to be calling plays that will be having him do that.It's either going to be a pass play or a hand off...or some trick play they come up with.

IMO his job is to move the ball downfield and score... the run, run, run isnt by design. its by adlib playsaving/exploiting soft spots... almost every TT run you will see is a diff play called than a run. the D reacts to the called play and either TT sees an open throw or finds a soft spot in the D to exploit. you guys havnt seen much of his play yet but if he gets to start you will finally see what i saw for 4+ years.

IMO he gets the QB postion and is playing it the way it ought to be played.

you still ne RBs and the thread of the classic rushing game, as you do a downfeild pass threat aspect... but with these to in place the D has to play honest (cant spy/stack on him)and this creates oppertunity for TT take advantage of what the D will give him... they cant be evrywhere lol.

will it be a rushing play to RB? a pass play? Play action pass? a play action run from TT? Jab step playaction pass deep? or will it be TT takes the snap and decide what you are weak on this play and exploit it? Im telling you when he gets comfortable back there, the NFL will take a couple years to know what the hell to scheme defensivly to stop his style of play... if ever.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 01:59 PM
Bullgator makes some valid points but I'm afraid if he runs like in college he'll end up like Steve Young with a skull full of mush!

I say get Tebow a run game and solid tightend (that can run routes and catch). BRONCOS have a decent receiving corps and we'll be set at offense....it also comes down to the hogs up front if they can run/pass block!! After this we'll see what Tim can do!

to be fair he wont run like he did in college... but he wont abandon what got him here either. hes not a good enough pure passer to give up his rushing threat. he is what he is ya know

KCL
04-14-2011, 02:08 PM
IMO his job is to move the ball downfield and score... the run, run, run isnt by design. its by adlib playsaving/exploiting soft spots... almost every TT run you will see is a diff play called than a run. the D reacts to the called play and either TT sees an open throw or finds a soft spot in the D to exploit. you guys havnt seen much of his play yet but if he gets to start you will finally see what i saw for 4+ years.

IMO he gets the QB postion and is playing it the way it ought to be played.

you still ne RBs and the thread of the classic rushing game, as you do a downfeild pass threat aspect... but with these to in place the D has to play honest (cant spy/stack on him)and this creates oppertunity for TT take advantage of what the D will give him... they cant be evrywhere lol.

will it be a rushing play to RB? a pass play? Play action pass? a play action run from TT? Jab step playaction pass deep? or will it be TT takes the snap and decide what you are weak on this play and exploit it? Im telling you when he gets comfortable back there, the NFL will take a couple years to know what the hell to scheme defensivly to stop his style of play... if ever.

So the top defenses in the NFL won't be able to rush,pressure or sack Tebow? Is that what you're thinking?

topscribe
04-14-2011, 02:34 PM
So the top defenses in the NFL won't be able to rush,pressure or sack Tebow? Is that what you're thinking?

One of the biggest regrets among Tebow-groupies is that Tebow won't be allowed to wear his red cape during games . . .

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
04-14-2011, 03:30 PM
IMO his job is to move the ball downfield and score... the run, run, run isnt by design. its by adlib playsaving/exploiting soft spots... almost every TT run you will see is a diff play called than a run. the D reacts to the called play and either TT sees an open throw or finds a soft spot in the D to exploit. you guys havnt seen much of his play yet but if he gets to start you will finally see what i saw for 4+ years.

IMO he gets the QB postion and is playing it the way it ought to be played.

you still ne RBs and the thread of the classic rushing game, as you do a downfeild pass threat aspect... but with these to in place the D has to play honest (cant spy/stack on him)and this creates oppertunity for TT take advantage of what the D will give him... they cant be evrywhere lol.

will it be a rushing play to RB? a pass play? Play action pass? a play action run from TT? Jab step playaction pass deep? or will it be TT takes the snap and decide what you are weak on this play and exploit it? Im telling you when he gets comfortable back there, the NFL will take a couple years to know what the hell to scheme defensivly to stop his style of play... if ever.

I believe that Payton Manning is the ONLY NFL QB who has the luxury of calling his own game. Therefore, the QB RUNS the play which comes in from the sidelines, UNLESS he can totally read a defense, and KNOWS that the play will not work - then he can change it, or take off running. And most times, if the defense is such that the play that comes in will not work, in the QB's opinion, the QB will call a time out. Offensive yards in the NFL, most of the time, do not come easy, and there is absolutely no room for a QB to be on the field - doing his own thing. He will not stay the starting QB very long with that approach.

topscribe
04-14-2011, 03:33 PM
I believe that Payton Manning is the ONLY NFL QB who has the luxury of calling his own game. Therefore, the QB RUNS the play which comes in from the sidelines, UNLESS he can totally read a defense, and KNOWS that the play will not work - then he can change it, or take off running. And most times, if the defense is such that the play that comes in will not work, in the QB's opinion, the QB will call a time out. Offensive yards in the NFL, most of the time, do not come easy, and there is absolutely no room for a QB to be on the field - doing his own thing. He will not stay the starting QB very long with that approach.

Also noteworthy is that the two highest rated QBs, according to most pundits,
are Peyton Manning and Tom Brady: two relatively immobile QBs.

They are also in the argument for G.O.A.T., along with the likes of Joe Montana,
Johnny Unitas, and Dan Marino . . . none who could run worth a hoot.

-----

underrated29
04-14-2011, 03:45 PM
wow you guys are really working hard to twist or not get what bullnuthuggergator is saying.


I hear ya BG. I understand.




He is saying that the team still needs a good ground game, and a TE to check down too..TT did this and needed a good ground game. He is also saying that TT can air it out, move in the pocket and make a solid throw.

He is also saying that TT can then run the ball for a first or td and extend the drive, and he will hold up a lot better than mike vick. If no one has a problem with vick taking off and running why would they TT.. Sure Vick runs fast and is hard to hit, but when he gets hit he folds....TT will take more hits but he does not try to truck people like he did in college. He still can but he wont.

(see the charges game for evidence of such)- Tim could have DESTROYED their sally corner who hates contact but Tim ran out of bounds instead.




BG- is also saying that with the downfield passing game, a good run game, and tebow being able to run it like a rb, the defense will not be able to stop him. He is also a new breed of qb who CAN pass and CAN run and do exceptional at both.




He never said he is invincible, or the defense has no chance so why show up, or anything else. Simply that he is a new breed of QB who is amongst the first as his position who can stay healthy and run and pass and totally screw with everything the defense wants to do. So far in our limited viewing of him i would say BGs write ups are holding pretty true.

Lonestar
04-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Had to look it up..he is 6'3...275 lbs..we'll see.

Was not saying he'd win going right at him that would be double dumb, but that he is mobile enough to dodge out of the way and probably as fast if not faster than he is to run away from his grasp.
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Lonestar
04-14-2011, 05:09 PM
all im saying is that I think running 15 times a game is ok for TT... bottom line is that he is as built for impact as anyone in the league... also him being a qb only helps... QBs are better protected than RBs.

He will be fine... SEC defenses are just as big and almost as fast as the mythical nfl Ds... beleive it or not defenses in the SEC are NOT undersized... he will be fine... just tone it down a little... 15 times a game is np

anyone can get hurt but time will tell all
QBs once out of the pocket are not protected by rules they are fair game unless they slid feet first and so far he has not shown any penchant for doing that.
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Lonestar
04-14-2011, 05:20 PM
Exactly correct. If they FO is shopping for QBs, it is a reflection on the entire
triumvirate of the present Broncos QBs, not just Tebow. Elway said in his most
recent interview on "102.3 The Ticket (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=740&f=74755)" that they "might have a franchise QB,
but we're not sure." I'm sure that is what is bothering Elway: When you have
a franchise QB, you're usually sure would forget completely about QB
-----

since there are only 7-9 FQB in the league at any one time time to worry about the rest of the teamand develop what ya got till uou know they will not be good enough to win all the marbles.

YOU do not have to have a FQB to go to the playoffs or win the sb not saying it does not help. But as you said fix the really broken parts first.

Sb have been won by some pretty lame ass QBs. But they were surrounded by players.
Unless you plan on drafting in the bottom 5 for a few years you have to build slowly via the draft. Even Farve was not a high pick neither was Brady. So spending a great pick on a hit or miss QB makes zero sense to me. ESP since we already have 2.5 really good guys now.
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TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 05:34 PM
ironically TC its you who obviously doesnt understand the rules. you ever heard of the option to slide? not to say TT is the sliding type but in certain situations where he cant run out of bounds he has the option to slide and will if he has to.

and yes SEC defenses ARE as big almost to a man as NFL defenses. go do some research. some of them may lack some quickness or the skillset and footwork to be NFL calibur but there are no shortages of 255 pound linebackers and 300+ linemen. where the hell do you think NFL players come from?

and by the way "championships are won with arms not legs" is highlarious coming from a fan of elway... or did you ofrget his legs helped win those 2 championships? helicopter dive ring a bell?

maybe until now its been the arm that has ruled.. but as in anything the game must evolve... if arm is good than arms and legs is better but only if A, it is done well and B, the QB is durable enough to do both. Vick does them both awsome but he lacks the frame to stay healthy. TT has no such issues.

ill say it again, he is BUILT for impact, but can also throw.

I know that quarterbacks are allowed give themselves up when running with the ball. Maybe you missed it the conversation revolved around him a big cog in the running game. You said it yourself he likes contact. If he is made that big of a part of the running game he will eventually wear down and either be ineffective or get hurt.

You really think you can school me on John Elway's career? Think again. I watched his entire I know how he used his mobility and it wasn't to rush 100 plus times for 800 yards and rush for 25 touchdowns. He used his mobility to get out of trouble. Running 90 percent of the time was as a last resort. I know that because I watched him for 16 seasons. You mentioned the helicopter spin in the Super Bowl well I watched the game while it was an important play it wasn't Denver's final drive. Denver's final scoring was manufactured because Elway's arm and Terrell Davis' legs. I know that because I watched the game. The following year he was the Super Bowl MVP because he threw for 336 yards and had 80 yard touch down pass. I know that because I watched the game.
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TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 05:36 PM
QBs once out of the pocket are not protected by rules they are fair game unless they slid feet first and so far he has not shown any penchant for doing that.
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Good post JR. :salute:
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KCL
04-14-2011, 06:13 PM
Was not saying he'd win going right at him that would be double dumb, but that he is mobile enough to dodge out of the way and probably as fast if not faster than he is to run away from his grasp.
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That may be true but Hali isn't the only one on the team that will be trying to get to the QB...Oh well..like I said we'll see...anyway by what BG says and now U29...apparently the rest of us don't know what we're talking about..:laugh:

KCL
04-14-2011, 06:15 PM
QBs once out of the pocket are not protected by rules they are fair game unless they slid feet first and so far he has not shown any penchant for doing that.
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Exactly and that's one of the points Carol and I were trying to make! :salute:

Also JR...see my post about QBs sliding..just because a QB goes down feet first in no ways mean he won't get hit...I'm not saying every time.

TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Exactly and that's one of the points Carol and I were trying to make! :salute:

Also JR...see my post about QBs sliding..just because a QB goes down feet first in no ways mean he won't get hit...I'm not saying every time.

I think the point everyone is trying to make is when a quarterback is running and gives slides he's not suppose to be hit however it doesn't always work out the way.
The thing is if Tebow was to be a hugh part of the running he won't be looking to do a lot od sliding.
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KCL
04-14-2011, 06:42 PM
I think the point everyone is trying to make is when a quarterback is running and gives slides he's not suppose to be hit however it doesn't always work out the way.

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uh yes TX...I know this...see my post I made earlier.

TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 07:50 PM
uh yes TX...I know this...see my post I made earlier.

I said it because I was siding with you.

KCL
04-14-2011, 08:31 PM
I said it because I siding with you.

oh really?

TXBRONC
04-14-2011, 08:54 PM
oh really?

Yes.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 09:25 PM
wow you guys are really working hard to twist or not get what bullnuthuggergator is saying.


I hear ya BG. I understand.




He is saying that the team still needs a good ground game, and a TE to check down too..TT did this and needed a good ground game. He is also saying that TT can air it out, move in the pocket and make a solid throw.

He is also saying that TT can then run the ball for a first or td and extend the drive, and he will hold up a lot better than mike vick. If no one has a problem with vick taking off and running why would they TT.. Sure Vick runs fast and is hard to hit, but when he gets hit he folds....TT will take more hits but he does not try to truck people like he did in college. He still can but he wont.

(see the charges game for evidence of such)- Tim could have DESTROYED their sally corner who hates contact but Tim ran out of bounds instead.




BG- is also saying that with the downfield passing game, a good run game, and tebow being able to run it like a rb, the defense will not be able to stop him. He is also a new breed of qb who CAN pass and CAN run and do exceptional at both.




He never said he is invincible, or the defense has no chance so why show up, or anything else. Simply that he is a new breed of QB who is amongst the first as his position who can stay healthy and run and pass and totally screw with everything the defense wants to do. So far in our limited viewing of him i would say BGs write ups are holding pretty true.

:whoo: thank you. wow thats refreshing. I only hope TT can make you guys as happy as he made me and gator nation :salute:

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 09:33 PM
One of the biggest regrets among Tebow-groupies is that Tebow won't be allowed to wear his red cape during games . . .

-----

yea he can... under his pads, tucked into his jockys.

KCL
04-14-2011, 10:03 PM
wow you guys are really working hard to twist or not get what bullnuthuggergator is saying.


I hear ya BG. I understand.




He is saying that the team still needs a good ground game, and a TE to check down too..TT did this and needed a good ground game. He is also saying that TT can air it out, move in the pocket and make a solid throw.

He is also saying that TT can then run the ball for a first or td and extend the drive, and he will hold up a lot better than mike vick. If no one has a problem with vick taking off and running why would they TT.. Sure Vick runs fast and is hard to hit, but when he gets hit he folds....TT will take more hits but he does not try to truck people like he did in college. He still can but he wont.

(see the charges game for evidence of such)- Tim could have DESTROYED their sally corner who hates contact but Tim ran out of bounds instead.




BG- is also saying that with the downfield passing game, a good run game, and tebow being able to run it like a rb, the defense will not be able to stop him. He is also a new breed of qb who CAN pass and CAN run and do exceptional at both.




He never said he is invincible, or the defense has no chance so why show up, or anything else. Simply that he is a new breed of QB who is amongst the first as his position who can stay healthy and run and pass and totally screw with everything the defense wants to do. So far in our limited viewing of him i would say BGs write ups are holding pretty true.

I don't believe any of us were disputing what he was saying...it's called OPINIONS.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 10:04 PM
I believe that Payton Manning is the ONLY NFL QB who has the luxury of calling his own game. Therefore, the QB RUNS the play which comes in from the sidelines, UNLESS he can totally read a defense, and KNOWS that the play will not work - then he can change it, or take off running. And most times, if the defense is such that the play that comes in will not work, in the QB's opinion, the QB will call a time out. Offensive yards in the NFL, most of the time, do not come easy, and there is absolutely no room for a QB to be on the field - doing his own thing. He will not stay the starting QB very long with that approach.

good point carol. but payton manning plays an entirly different game. his game is cat and mouse BEFORE the snap. shifts, audibles and checks based on presnap defensive looks.

TT on the other hand is a post snap decider. no guessing game there.. the D in this phase is already commited and indeed doing what they are going to do. TT is a reactive player. so he first sees what they are doing(not guessing before hand when it really is an art)and then reacts accordingly. Payton manning could not operate this way. because once the ball is snapped and they didnt run the ball there is no going back.. he cant decide what to do with the ball other than his passing progression... so whats the point. TT can hold initiative until its clear what the best option is run or pass.

think about this.. once you hand off the ball to a RB you are commited to running the ball that play very early in the play..or vice versa when the RB doesnt get the hand off and picks up the blitz or goes out you are commited to the pass....

the beauty of a TT style QB is that you dont have to commit to anything until later in the play when the D begins to break down.

so what you said rings true... but only for the presnap/D recognition type (which until now is everyone) Not for the new breed.

like Bruce lees style, the way of the intercepting fist lol. let the opponent first commit to their attack, then counter where they are weak. that 6 yard game winner against houston is a perfect example. first the coaches call a designed play, presnap TT calls for a blitz pickup nothing special... then takes the snap and rolls right... sees the guys not open and reads the Ds flow... sees they are flowing with him to the right... and he recognizes that the DB and linebacker that is responsible for the leftside contain has their back turned in coverage... he also sees that clady(i think) has a semi solid seal on the DE and he instantly knows that if he takes off left then no one will catch him in time... that wasnt a called play. that was a sack for orton... a well defensed play to most any other QB but an easy TD for TT.

KCL
04-14-2011, 10:20 PM
so let me try to understand...Tebow has the ability to not only run but he also will be able to confuse the defenses on every team he will face...they won't be able to make plays on him...And DC won't be able to game plan around him...ah hell...I have got to watch him play now.

:worship:

:lol:

Denver Native (Carol)
04-14-2011, 10:28 PM
so let me try to understand...Tebow has the ability to not only run but he also will be able to confuse the defenses on every team he will face...they won't be able to make plays on him...And DC won't be able to game plan around him...ah hell...I have got to watch him play now.

:worship:

:lol:

And, more than likely, the Broncos do not need any offensive coaches.

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 11:08 PM
so let me try to understand...Tebow has the ability to not only run but he also will be able to confuse the defenses on every team he will face...they won't be able to make plays on him...And DC won't be able to game plan around him...ah hell...I have got to watch him play now.

:worship:

:lol:

Is that what im saying? :rolleyes:

I know what I wrote is really hard to grasp... for the record defenses wont be "confused" so much as commited to their assignments when the ball is snapped...and TT can exploit the soft spot. you should watch though... hell watch every play of the last 3 games he started and look for it

Bullgator
04-14-2011, 11:20 PM
And, more than likely, the Broncos do not need any offensive coaches.

well idealy you shouldnt need any offensive coaches... ideally a QB should BE the offensive coach in real time when it matters... not gussing before hand what might work, but WILL work in real time.

not saying TT doesnt need an OC lol, but ideally you want an OC mind in an athletes body running the show on the feild.

TT still needs an OC kick things off and hopefully its a good play and a nice gain. TT only takes over that duty after the first 4 seconds when the OCs play didnt work... then its Tebow time.

Juriga72
04-15-2011, 06:41 AM
so let me try to understand...Tebow has the ability to not only run but he also will be able to confuse the defenses on every team he will face...they won't be able to make plays on him...And DC won't be able to game plan around him...ah hell...I have got to watch him play now.

:worship:

:lol:

Its like Joe Montana and Steve Young had a kid who they then spliced Randall Cunningham gene's into...... And Kyle will still beat him out in training camp.......:shocked:

Dzone
04-15-2011, 08:52 AM
There seems to have been a gradual shift toward Anti-Tebow since right after that last game of the year against SD.

Lonestar
04-15-2011, 09:18 AM
Is that what im saying? :rolleyes:

I know what I wrote is really hard to grasp... for the record defenses wont be "confused" so much as commited to their assignments when the ball is snapped...and TT can exploit the soft spot. you should watch though... hell watch every play of the last 3 games he started and look for it


I know either your his cousin, dad, or maybe agent to be posting the things you are. That or you have really not watched much NFL games.

Lots of us have been followers of the NFL for decades. We have seen things that totally contradict what you are saying. Now unless Tebow is a super human one of. Kind he is not going to dominate defenses like you hope he can.

Some of us have been watching, playing football for more than 50 years and have seen changes in the game but nothing like you are trying to convince us Tebow will do.
Then there are hundreds of coaches in the NFL that doubt your veracity.

While I really like the kid, I also will take your post as entertainment until he does 25% of what you claim he can do.
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Nomad
04-15-2011, 10:14 AM
There seems to have been a gradual shift toward Anti-Tebow since right after that last game of the year against SD.

Yes, most had hope after that game! Then Elway came along with his opinion and shifting has occured because Elway said so. But it seems most want, Bullgator, Jagsbasch and other gator fans to be proven wrong and there superhero from Gainesville and a Denver BRONCO to go down in flames!! :lol:

KCL
04-15-2011, 10:34 AM
I know either your his cousin, dad, or maybe agent to be posting the things you are. That or you have really not watched much NFL games.

Lots of us have been followers of the NFL for decades. We have seen things that totally contradict what you are saying. Now unless Tebow is a super human one of. Kind he is not going to dominate defenses like you hope he can.

Some of us have been watching, playing football for more than 50 years and have seen changes in the game but nothing like you are trying to convince us Tebow will do.
Then there are hundreds of coaches in the NFL that doubt your veracity.

While I really like the kid, I also will take your post as entertainment until he does 25% of what you claim he can do.
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Agree JR..I'm not and never have taken anything away from TT's ability...and like I have pointed out to U29..we are all just posting our opinions...I just think that BG is going somewhat overboard with what he post at times...I realize that's his opinion and some on here just happen to disagree that TT will do what no athlete before him has ever done.

KCL
04-15-2011, 10:36 AM
Yes, most had hope after that game! Then Elway came along with his opinion and shifting has occured because Elway said so. But it seems most want, Bullgator, Jagsbasch and other gator fans to be proven wrong and there superhero from Gainesville and a Denver BRONCO to go down in flames!! :lol:

Nomad..I don't think that's what Denver fans want...me? yes that's what I want for all Denver players..:lol:

KCL
04-15-2011, 10:38 AM
Is that what im saying? :rolleyes:



That's what I'm getting from reading what you post..yes!

Nomad
04-15-2011, 10:45 AM
Nomad..I don't think that's what Denver fans want...me? yes that's what I want for all Denver players..:lol:

I was kinda being a wiseguy but it seems that way! The more the "Gator" fans talk up Tebow, it seems the more people are turned off!

The guy's a proven winner and his work ethic is second to none except perhaps Peyton Manning! I want to see if he can do the same in the NFL. And I believe BG understands the game of football and the NFL better than most think!

Dzone
04-15-2011, 10:47 AM
Elway has done a good job of dampening the Tebow enthusiasm

KCL
04-15-2011, 10:48 AM
I was kinda being a wiseguy but it seems that way! The more the "Gator" fans talk up Tebow, it seems the more people are turned off!

The guy's a proven winner and his work ethic is second to none except perhaps Peyton Manning! I want to see if he can do the same in the NFL.

I don't believe anyone is saying he isn't a good athlete...but come on..are we not allowed to question what BG is trying to convince us of? :laugh:

Manning...oh no..he's way ahead of Manning...:lol:

Nomad
04-15-2011, 10:57 AM
I don't believe anyone is saying he isn't a good athlete...but come on..are we not allowed to question what BG is trying to convince us of? :laugh:

Manning...oh no..he's way ahead of Manning...:lol:

Tebow will prove Bullgator right or wrong, no one else can. Tebow could be one of a kind or a flop! I believe underrated said it best in his post.

By all means, question BG, if it makes you feel better!!:lol:

KCL
04-15-2011, 11:13 AM
Tebow will prove Bullgator right or wrong, no one else can. Tebow could be one of a kind or a flop! I believe underrated said it best in his post.

By all means, question BG, if it makes you feel better!!:lol:

meh...not really questioning..just stating our opinions like he is....U29 just repeated what BG said...;)

Bullgator
04-15-2011, 01:21 PM
I know either your his cousin, dad, or maybe agent to be posting the things you are. That or you have really not watched much NFL games.

Lots of us have been followers of the NFL for decades. We have seen things that totally contradict what you are saying. Now unless Tebow is a super human one of. Kind he is not going to dominate defenses like you hope he can.

Some of us have been watching, playing football for more than 50 years and have seen changes in the game but nothing like you are trying to convince us Tebow will do.
Then there are hundreds of coaches in the NFL that doubt your veracity.

While I really like the kid, I also will take your post as entertainment until he does 25% of what you claim he can do.
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I totally understand your doubts... as you should. you should take my posts as entertainment and not gospel... I can only clue you in to keep an eye out for the nuances I posted about. keep your eyes open when he plays then tell me im full of shit or dead on. just remember the kid from gainesville said it amidst all the rotten tomatoes.

Its only natural that the QB and RB should be the same postion. as i have said before once you hand the ball off or dont you are commited to the play. you cant go back and hand it off or go back and pass it... so how much better to have the option of run or pass through out the entire play.. its just common sense. TT will do this... he still needs this year of game experience to reach his potential IMO... but i promise you his style of gambit will revoloutionize the way the game is played. the way players are trained and recriuted. the cam newtons will be farmed. its already happened in college and its only a matter of time its spills over to the NFL.

topscribe
04-15-2011, 01:33 PM
meh...not really questioning..just stating our opinions like he is....U29 just repeated what BG said...;)

It's the case when somebody idolizes an individual: They hope beyond hope that
individual will make it. They are trying to convince themselves more than anyone
else.

-----

Juriga72
04-15-2011, 01:46 PM
I just do not want Tim Tebow to become Tommy Maddox 2.0.......

Bullgator
04-15-2011, 02:37 PM
It's the case when somebody idolizes an individual: They hope beyond hope that
individual will make it. They are trying to convince themselves more than anyone
else.

-----

You talking about you and Orton?

It doesnt matter what we think of these people they are what they are. I wish the season would start already.

Lonestar
04-15-2011, 02:53 PM
Iirc the QB was just that until the forward pass came into existence. Since then more emphasis has been placed on THr owing the ball as it is the fastest route between two points.

QB got it's name from being a smarter RB. That evolved into passing
QB, HB=RB and full back.
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Bullgator
04-15-2011, 08:07 PM
Iirc the QB was just that until the forward pass came into existence. Since then more emphasis has been placed on TE owing the ball as it is the fastest route between two points.

QB got it's name from being a smarter RB. That evolved into passing
QB, HB=RB and full back.
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Yes, back then it was all rushing... that was before even the AFL and NFL... even after the pass came into play and most every team adopted it, the packers won the first two championships on a single rushing play... the power sweep.

then offensive minds began to spread the feild and air it out and the game evolved. and it will keep evolving and changing as i beleive it is now. lets not forget football isnt a game of merely passing or running... it is a game of moving the ball down feild anyway you can and crossing the goal line. who cares how you do it. all these norms that now dominate the game may be a thing of the past in a couple of years. as a football fan of 50 years you have seen it happen time and time again....now its time again...

Lonestar
04-15-2011, 08:30 PM
Only in your mind Elway has different ideas. I suspect that Tebow will soon be back in FL.
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Bullgator
04-15-2011, 10:22 PM
Perhaps Elway will continue the trend of shipping Denvers players out of town... but the only way Tebow will end up back in Florida is as part of the Dolphins or Jags. Shit, I wish.

More likely Elway is playing this whole thing very close to the vest. and all the negative Tebow speculation will disapear after the CBA is signed, KO is traded and the draft is over with. I still beleive Denver will trade down and Tebow starts next season. Fox is a master at finding hidden gems. he doesnt need the #2 pick to find A winner... the more picks the better. Can you say smoke screen?

but thats just a guess... maybe you and the media is right, and Tebow has no support in mile high what so ever. Maybe they trade TT. and maybe the fans anguish yet another year for what might have been.

spikerman
04-15-2011, 10:34 PM
Perhaps Elway will continue the trend of shipping Denvers players out of town... but the only way Tebow will end up back in Florida is as part of the Dolphins or Jags. Shit, I wish.


I thought you claimed at one time to be a Broncos fan even before Tebow was drafted. This statement makes me think that you were not being completely up front. It's no big deal either way since it's obvious (and I believe you openly admitted) that you care more about Tebow than the Broncos overall. I just wanted to make sure that I understood you correctly. If you would prefer him to come back to a Florida team then it's obvious that you have very little allegiance to the Broncos, which I have no problem with - to each his own.

I have to caveat this by saying that I've been out of the loop for a while so if this has already been established I apologize.

Bullgator
04-15-2011, 11:20 PM
I thought you claimed at one time to be a Broncos fan even before Tebow was drafted. This statement makes me think that you were not being completely up front. It's no big deal either way since it's obvious (and I believe you openly admitted) that you care more about Tebow than the Broncos overall. I just wanted to make sure that I understood you correctly. If you would prefer him to come back to a Florida team then it's obvious that you have very little allegiance to the Broncos, which I have no problem with - to each his own.

I have to caveat this by saying that I've been out of the loop for a while so if this has already been established I apologize.

Ive made my position clear... I have always been a broncos fan. But there are degrees to being a fan of something. Im a die hard gator and if i had the chance to actually see tebow play in person in jax i would be happy. id still root for the broncos... just not against TT...

sry but i just have way too much invested in TT and the Gators to totally sell out to another team... im sure you can understand i take my loyalties seriously. but i never lied about elway being my fav nfl qb, i was very happy he didnt end up like dan marino and won 2 rings, i watched him win em both. i was fired up when i saw denver picked TT, hell we even share the same colors. but if im going to be interegated up and down about my loyalties its not even close im a FLA native and a die hard gator/TT fan :whoknows:

Bullgator
04-15-2011, 11:35 PM
I was kinda being a wiseguy but it seems that way! The more the "Gator" fans talk up Tebow, it seems the more people are turned off!

The guy's a proven winner and his work ethic is second to none except perhaps Peyton Manning! I want to see if he can do the same in the NFL. And I believe BG understands the game of football and the NFL better than most think!

Thanks Nomad. I appreciate your kind words and courage to speak your mind.

I can see how some of our(gator fans)bubbling enthusiasm can be annoying, but dont let that bother you, the best thing that can happen for bronco fans is that we end up being right.

rcsodak
04-19-2011, 11:22 PM
wow you guys are really working hard to twist or not get what bullnuthuggergator is saying.


I hear ya BG. I understand.




He is saying that the team still needs a good ground game, and a TE to check down too..TT did this and needed a good ground game. He is also saying that TT can air it out, move in the pocket and make a solid throw.

He is also saying that TT can then run the ball for a first or td and extend the drive, and he will hold up a lot better than mike vick. If no one has a problem with vick taking off and running why would they TT.. Sure Vick runs fast and is hard to hit, but when he gets hit he folds....TT will take more hits but he does not try to truck people like he did in college. He still can but he wont.

(see the charges game for evidence of such)- Tim could have DESTROYED their sally corner who hates contact but Tim ran out of bounds instead.




BG- is also saying that with the downfield passing game, a good run game, and tebow being able to run it like a rb, the defense will not be able to stop him. He is also a new breed of qb who CAN pass and CAN run and do exceptional at both.




He never said he is invincible, or the defense has no chance so why show up, or anything else. Simply that he is a new breed of QB who is amongst the first as his position who can stay healthy and run and pass and totally screw with everything the defense wants to do. So far in our limited viewing of him i would say BGs write ups are holding pretty true.

Cannibus much?

:lol:
I can honestly say I don't know how to take you in this. Lol
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chazoe60
04-19-2011, 11:50 PM
Has it been a week already? Damn, that sucks.

TXBRONC
04-20-2011, 12:20 AM
Has it been a week already? Damn, that sucks.

Dang Chazoe why heck did you dig this out of moth balls? :laugh: